BABYL OPTIONS: Version: 5 Labels: Note: This is the header of an rmail file. Note: If you are seeing it in rmail, Note: it means the file has no messages in it.  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Jan 87 0920-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #1 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 5 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 1 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Happy New Year, Books - Ackerman (3 msgs) & Anderson & Barr & Blish (4 msgs) & Brust & Cherryh & Farmer & Herbert ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Jan 87 08:27:02 EST From: Saul Subject: Happy New Year Well folks, here it is beginning of January and the start of a new year of SF-LOVERS. This past year has been hectic with many changes in the way network mail is handled. Our mailer here is gasping and wheezing but still hanging in there so I expect we will be able to continue for another year without problems. Let me take a moment to remind everyone of the wonderful(?) stuff in the SF-LOVERS archives here at Rutgers: T: * Archive.V1 * Archive.V2 * Archive.V3 * Archive.V4 * Archive.V5 * Archive.V6 * Archive.V7 * Archive.V8 * Archive.V9 * Archive.V10 Down-In-Flames.Txt.1 Drwho.Guide.1 Galactica.Guide.1 Hitch-Hikers-Guide-To-The-Net.Txt.1 Hugos.Txt.2 Klingonaase.Txt.1 Lost-In-Space.Guide.1 Nebulas.Txt.4 Outerlimits.Guide.1 Prisoner.Guide.2;P777700 Sf-Lovers.Apr86.1 .Aug86.1 .Feb86.1 .Jan86.1 .Jul86.1 .June86.1 .Mar86.1 .May86.1 .Nov86.1 .Oct86.1 .Sep86.1 Star-Trek.Guide.1 The-Enchanted-Duplicator.Txt.1 Twilight-Zone.Guide.1 Files marked with an asterisk (*) are currently offline due to space limitations. If anyone wishes these files or for some reason cannot get these files via ftp they should contact me. All of the online files are available via the ANONYMOUS login of FTP. Please folks, if FTP is unavailable to you do not ask me to mail you these files. I cannot do it. As a reminder to both new and old readers, all requests to be added to or deleted from this list, problems, questions, etc., should be sent to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS. Submissions for the digest are to be sent to SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS. If you use the wrong address for the wrong purpose your message will get ignored. Also, please keep submissions to one topic. That makes it a lot easier for me to work with and it is easier for others to reply as well. In recent months, there has been some talk about changes with how BITNET mail is handled. At the moment, I would like to remind everyone that sending mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST is still the only officially supported way of receiving the digest. An announcement will be made if this ever changes. If you know anyone who is expecting to receive the mail on BITNET through one of the various servers that people set up, please tell them that these servers are not supported. And now I'd like to wish you all a healthy and happy New Year and get back to the purpose of this digest - mainly talking SF! Saul ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 16:44:17 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Forrest J Ackerman > From: uwmacc!oyster (Joel Plutchak) > Not being a Sci-Fi (that's just for the easily riled in the > audience) fan, but merely a voracious reader of said literature > (that's another one), I have read about Forry Ackerman in some of > P. J. Farmer's great bad novels. I assumed that he was a > fictional amalgam of the worst traits of fandom all rolled into > one character. Now, I see that he may indeed be a real person. > If so, is he like the fellow of the same name who appears in the > Farmer novels? And, more importantly, would he be upset by my > "worst traits" description? :-) Forry Ackerman is definitely a real person. He's one of the "dinosaurs" of sf fandom and has one of the largest private collections of sf/fantasy books and memoribilia in the world. He's perhaps best known as the editor of the fantasy film magazine FAMOUS MONSTERS OF FILMLAND. As for your "worst traits" questions, I can't answer the second (though I've never heard of him taking offense at anything), but for the first, consider: (1) all of his writing contains the most excrutiatingly bad puns (and I mean bad bad, not good bad) you're ever likely to read, and (2) he was the one who first coined the term "sci-fi". --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 26 Dec 86 13:07:41 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Forrest J Ackerman boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: > As for your "worst traits" questions, I can't answer the second > (though I've never heard of him taking offense at anything), but > for the first, consider: (1) all of his writing contains the most > excrutiatingly bad puns (and I mean bad bad, not good bad) you're > ever likely to read, and (2) he was the one who first coined the > term "sci-fi". Forry represents a lot of traits from somewhat bad to very good. He has done a lot that was good for fandom and a lot that was not so good. He is supremely well-intentioned. He has had bad traits in his time, but time has passed him by and go to any science fiction convention in the country and you will see science fiction fans with traits far worse than anything Forry ever had. Recently Forry celebrated his 50th anniversary in fandom and a magazine I saw (I think it was Science Fiction Chronicle) ran an article that I at first thought was on obituary. I was surprised how relieved I was when I realized it wasn't. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 87 15:01:55 GMT From: hadron!jsdy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Joseph S. D. Yao) Subject: Re: Forrest J Ackerman Trivia bit, here. I was going through some garbage books dating back to my youth, and found the following bit in a piece of fiction (based on a TV series). You have until past the Control-L to guess what series, and what book. "The man smiled. With a light moustache and slightly receding hairline, he resembled a fuller-faced Vincent Price, but without the comic villany affected by the actor. 'My work,' he said. 'I specialize in horror films. ... I took the opportunity to stop off in Transylvania on my way north, and collect some facts on real monsters.' "'You make horror movies?' "'No, just write about them. I run a magazine devoted to the subject -- Famous_Monsters_of_Filmland. And a quarter of a million readers consider me to be the world's greatest authority on monsters, vampires, ghouls, amd werewolves -- not to mention spaceships, mutants, time machines, and anything else you can think of that Hollywood has ever used to scare audiences. ...' ... [spoilers omitted] "'Ackerman. Forrest J Ackerman -- no period on the J. But call me Forry. Tell me all about them -- but first tell me if I can publish it.'" (c) 1966 by MGM author David McDaniel pub. Ace Books, NY, NY This predated my encounters with Fandom, so as far as I could tell back then, this was just fluff. (Well, the whole book is, really.) Ready? The Man From U.N.C.L.E. #6, The Vampire Affair FA is talking with Napoleon Solo. curious, I thought. Joe Yao hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP} jsdy@hadron.COM (not yet domainised) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 17:01:44 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Poul Anderson's 'Sam Hall' > From: Earl (Boebert @ MIT-Multics) > I have been informed that the story with the epigraph " ... oh my > name is Samuel Hall .." is "Sam Hall" by Poul Anderson and is > indeed about computer sabotage. Now my question is: does anybody > have the publication date, and, more importantly, is this the > first hacker/penetration story? First question: It first appeared in ASTOUNDING SCIENCE FICTION, August 1953. It's also appeared in THE BEST OF POUL ANDERSON, Groff Conklin's SCIENCE FICTION THINKING MACHINES, and Robert Hoskins' THE LIBERATED FUTURE. I can't answer the second question. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 16:40:56 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Donald Barr > From: "Daniel P. Dern" > My packrat memory tells me that Donald Barr, the sf writer, is > actually/also Donald Barr Chidsey, the historian/historical > writer. Try looking under this name -- probably (sigh) under > "mainstream" (i.e., non-sf). I don't think this is true. R. Reginald's SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY LITERATURE has a biographical sketch that makes no mention of a name other than "Donald Barr". A quote from Barr in this sketch says that he generally writes non-fiction for children. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 86 17:57:47 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: BLACK EASTER quote Local fan George Flynn noted that Selahny=Zelazny because of the reference to Leviathan, since one of Zelazny's earliest famous stories was "The Doors of His Face, the Lamps of his Mouth". "Rosenblum=Robinson" isn't possible, since BLACK EASTER was printed a few years before Spider's first published story (unless you're thinking of Frank Robinson, a semi-mundane whose dates I don't know but who seems unlikely to be referred to by Blish). ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 18:03:40 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: BLACK EASTER in-jokes > From: Douglas M. Olson > Father Selahny just about has to be Roger Zelazny; though I don't > know the publication dates for "Creatures of Light and Darkness" > or "Lord of Light", 1969 is certainly late enough (that's when you > said BLACK EASTER was published) to account for the reference to > incomprehensible parables. Nice question; I have no clue to > "Uccello", "Rosenblum" or "Atheling". But let's go find and read > the book, already! LORD OF LIGHT was published in 1967 and CREATURES OF LIGHT AND DARKNESS in 1969 (though an excerpt appeared in 1968). I'm more inclined to believe that Selahny is Samuel Delaney, who also tends to write parables. As others have pointed out, Atheling is William Atheling, who is Blish himself under a pseudonym. I have no idea who Uccello, Montieth, or Rosenblum are. Ron Singelton suggested Spider Robinson for Rosenblum, but Spider didn't appear on the scene for years later. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 27 Dec 86 15:02:57 GMT From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jon Meltzer) Subject: Re: BLACK EASTER in-jokes boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: >I have no idea who Uccello, Montieth, or Rosenblum are. Ron >Singelton suggested Spider Robinson for Rosenblum, but Spider >didn't appear on the scene for years later. Father Monteith ("a veritable master of a great horde of creative (though often ineffectual) spirits of the cislunar sphere") is, I believe, a British SF editor. Father Selahny ("of whom it was said that no one since Leviathan had understood his counsel") has to be Roger "The Doors of His Face ..." Zelazny. ------------------------------ Date: Sat 27 Dec 86 22:48:36-PST From: Joe Brenner Subject: Black Easter trivia People are under the impression that the name "Selahny" in the James Blish book BLACK EASTER really refers to Zelazny. I think it's far more likely that it means Samuel R. Delany. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 86 20:35:15 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Teckla The life of an assassin possesses a certain glamor (if you happen to live), but when you come down to it, it's a rather callous and immature way to make a living. In Jhereg, Vlad had both his financial and emotional incentives to make a living this way reduced. In Teckla, which takes place almost immediately after, it is time for him, belatedly, to grow up. This is made somewhat urgent by his discovery that his wife is active in the next revolt. (Medieval history, which I grant this is not, is replete with peasant revolts; it doesn't record many successful ones. Cities and towns tended to buy their freedoms.) The book was something of a disappointment. It reads a lot more like "Brokedown Castle", than it does like "Jhereg". I get the feeling that the former is what Brust wants to be writing, while the latter is what he excells at, which must be rough. There's nothing wrong with there being more to a book than 'merely' a story, but it's a mistake for that 'more' to come at the *expense* of the story. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (edu or bitnet) (or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Dec 86 19:18:28 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Chanur's Homecoming "Chanur's Homecoming", by C.J. Cherryh, is out, and it was definitely worth waiting for. This book completes the story started in "Chanur's Venture" and "The Kif Strike Back" (I'd love to know if the publisher chose that title). In those two books, the Pride of Chanur (name of the ship, title of the prequel, and mild pun) finds itself at the center of more and more convoluted plots. In this book those plots begin to unravel. That it works as well as it does is a credit to the author's writing and juggling abilities. (The reason I'm not saying anything about the specific plot is not to avoid spoilers but because there's no point. If you've read the earlier books you know what's happening. If you haven't, you really don't want to start in the middle.) One of the points/jokes/tricks underlying the book is typical Cherryh: Which of the species in the book is the one which cedes authority to anyone with enough moxy to claim it and which turns, swiftly and suddenly, upon those who have made serious mistakes or who show appreciable weakness? Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (edu or bitnet) (or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 86 18:04:01 -0500 From: hmiller@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Subject: Farmer (Dayworld) Somewhere around a year and a half ago I read Farmer's _Dayworld_ (which I enjoyed a great deal). Does anyone out there know what the plans are (if any exist) for a sequel (the ending certainly begs for one), and when we can expect it? Thanks in advance, Herb Miller ARPA: hmiller@athena.mit.edu UUCP: ...seismo!burdvax!bmiller BITNET: 208543614@VUVAXCOM ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 86 20:35:43 GMT From: elrond!adb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Alan D. Brunelle) Subject: CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE by F. Herbert I just finished ``Chapterhouse: Dune'' (the 6th in that wonderful series), and am more then a little lost as to what happened at the very end. (I have never said that I was at all clever 8-) I must admit that I did kind of rush through it, and therefore may have 'skipped' over something I shouldn't have. But it would seem to me that the last chapter is very strange, to put it mildly. (I do remember the couple of references to the `net', and the `old couple', but the last chapter still has me miffed!) thanks for any help, Al ps. I must admit that I really enjoy Herbert's works (the 6 Dune books ``White Plague'', and ``The Jesus Incident'' is all that I have read however...) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Jan 87 0944-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #2 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 5 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Bester & Brunner & Effinger & Spinrad & Varley (2 msgs) & Sentient Computers (4 msgs) & Torcs (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 86 02:47:40 GMT (Sorted by Postman Pat) From: Drew Subject: More Hitchhiker trivia and a defence of BBC special effects Derrick%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@ucl-cs.arpa writes: > I just want to say that HHGTG did not start off as a book, but >as a radio series. The cult that started here in Britain was based >on this radio series, and with good reason. Exactly! I have been waiting for someone to make this point! All the books, records, TV series, more books, games, T-Shirts etc are really just spin-offs, and to enjoy and to be stimulated by HHGTG as I was in 1978 you just *have* to listen to the radio series. I was always rather disappointed with the books of Hitchhiker, mainly because none of them seemed to capture the original attitude of the radio series, and none of them contained many of the quite remarkable events in the second radio series, ie the cloning Lintillas and the strata of shoes she discovered. I also rather liked the landing of the Heart of Gold in the big cup, and Ford, Arthur and Marvin's journeys down. However, I do disagree with the above writers' opinions on the TV series: I viewed it considerable trepidation but I was very pleased with how well it managed to display the images the radio series created. And I think the 'low budget special effects' somehow helped along the whole general ridiculousness of some of the things that happened. The record by Marvin the Paranoid Android was a typical cashing-in on the popularity of the whole series gesture and generally wasn't very good. The double album of the first radio series, (a different recording but with largely the same actors and the same producer), with the duck on a red background on the cover, and the single by Marvin, was released on Virgin Records here in the UK and the album is still completely available. The album wasn't that bad actually, and this does contain 'It's only the end of the World Again' which I also never thought was much good. I suspect neither were released in the USA, but a lot of Virgin's stuff over there is distributed by A&M so you could try them. And now to a slightly different kettle of fish, (and rather neatly I think); What is wrong with the BBC's special effects? I know they *look* a bit tacky sometimes, but I think things like Dr. Who would be spoilt if they had effects of a Star Wars type in them. And they *are* getting better: The Tripods was good wasn't it? Also don't slag off Blake's Seven: I went to school with Terry Nation's son, Darryl Smith, (the family name is Smith not Nation fact fans), for fourteen years and they live in the next village to me so watch out. Another interesting fact is that they filmed the prehistoric earth sequences for the TV HHGTG on the Pennine moors around my house in Oldham, Lancashire, and indeed Douglas Adams was quoted complaining about the weather in the Oldham Evening Chronicle thus: 'Most places seem to be generally cold and rainy or warm and dry, but here we seem to have experienced all possible variations of the English Climate in half an hour'. Hence filming took longer than expected, (perhaps causing the BBC to have to divert funds from their special effects budget). Drew Radtke LADA Chemical Engineering University of Bradford, Bradford, UK ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jan 87 00:00:42 GMT (Sorted by Postman Pat) From: Derrick Subject: Re: Alfred Bester Story request. cmcl2!chenj@rutgers.rutgers.edu (James M.C. Chen) writes :- > The plot goes something like this. While at a party, the >protagonist happens to glance at a stranger who is a sort of >mystery figure that the reader is lead to believe is either Lucifer >or Prometheus, i.e. some sort of fallen angel possessing >supernatural powers. The mystery man has anciently dropped his >guard and allowed a mortal to look him in the eye and see his inner >self. The effect of that single brief, glimpse drives this poor >soul mad. He slowly unravels; beginning to have progressively >weirder dreams. > > The stranger realizes what has happened and, being a benevolent >being, tries to help. By carefully guiding the dreams he salvages >the man's sanity. This story (by Alfred Bester) was one I first found in an anthology of his called "Starburst". I was very pleased recently to find the original publication of the story, in the March 1954 edition of The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction (or F&SF.) I cannot remember whether it had this title in the anthology (I think not) but in the original magazine it was called "5,271,009". The protagonist was an artist called Jeffrey Halcyon and the stranger was called Solon Aquila. The whole thing is one of those weird stories that F&SF specialise in. I suppose you'd call it fantasy. As an anthology, I would recommend "Starburst" very highly; it was the first book of what I will call "Non-Campbell" science fiction that I ever read. Some of Bester's ideas are quite fantastic, although I am afraid I have not got around to buying any more of his work. Next time I see "The Demolished Man" in a shop, I am going to buy it! Derrick ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 87 07:34:15 GMT From: styx!mcb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Seeking John Brunner bibliography I am looking for a comprehensive bibliography of the book-length works of John Brunner. I have some thirty-five of his books, but he has published many more, and I would like to collect them all. I've already tried several of the SF specialty stores and cannot find any critical studies or bibliographies; if none exists, it might be fun to construct one. If you can assist, please correspond with me at the address below. Thanks in advance. Michael C. Berch ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.arpa UUCP: ...!lll-lcc!styx!mcb ...!lll-crg!styx!mcb ...!ihnp4!styx!mcb ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 16:41:48 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: George Alec Effinger From: Brett Slocum > Several months ago, a short story by George Alec Effinger called > "All the Last Wars at Once" was mentioned. I have since lost > track of what collections this story appears in. Could someone > help out? Any of you bibliographers out there? jmb? It first appeared in UNIVERSE 1, edited by Terry Carr, and also appeared in, among other places, Carr's BEST SCIENCE FICTION OF THE YEAR [#1], Silverberg's WINDOWS INTO TOMORROW, and Effinger's own collection, MIXED FEELINGS. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 86 14:41:08 GMT From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Card - Spinrad's Comments As an active member of the Science Fiction Writers of America, I confirm the story that Norman Spinrad has indeed withdrawn all his future works from contention for SFWA's Nebula awards, citing as the reason the failure of his latest book to be nominated. The withdrawal was made via a full-page ad he took out in the SFWA BULLETIN. Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer "Uphill Climb," AMAZING STORIES Magazine, March, 1987. c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 26 Dec 86 18:24:44 GMT From: cracraft@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: John Varley's BLUE CHAMPAGNE My initial contact with Varley's work came many years ago when members of sf-lovers strongly recommended his first short story collection THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION. To put it simply, I was awed by this collection and thought it perhaps the best collection of shorts I had ever read. However, apart from TPOV, Varley's other works (OPHIUCHI HOTLINE, BARBIE MURDERS, TITAN, WIZARD, DEMON, MILLENIUM) never made as much an impact on me. Even his other stories in the "Eight Worlds" universe as contained in OPHIUCHI HOTLINE and BARBIE MURDERS somehow seemed to lack the special magic of TPOV. So it was with considerable trepidation that I shelled out the money to buy BLUE CHAMPAGNE. Here again, either my tastes have changed over the years or Varley never really lived up to his initial promise. BLUE CHAMPAGNE is a strong collection, a worthwhile collection, but not a great collection. Varley seems to have overstepped his usual bounds into sentimentality. While he writes truly great erotic fiction, I find his increasing and over- powering sentimentality to become somewhat oppressive after awhile. My personal favorite in this collection is "The Unabridged Phone Book". It is strongly recommended for all those right who favor the stockpiling and manufacture of nuclear arms. So on a scale of one to ten, I would rate BLUE CHAMPAGNE as a 7. We may not yet have seen Varley's true blossoming as a writer, but as the tone of this review implies, this reader is somewhat disappointed. Stuart Cracraft ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 87 02:51:11 GMT From: clunk!don@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Don McKillican) Subject: Re: John Varley's BLUE CHAMPAGNE Stuart Cracraft writes: > My initial contact with Varley's work came many years ago when > members of sf-lovers strongly recommended his first short story > collection THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION. To put it simply, I was awed > by this collection and thought it perhaps the best collection of > shorts I had ever read. I certainly have to agree with you here; the title story in particular! > BLUE CHAMPAGNE is a strong collection, a worthwhile collection, > but not a great collection. Varley seems to have overstepped his > usual bounds into sentimentality. While he writes truly great > erotic fiction, I find his increasing and over- powering > sentimentality to become somewhat oppressive after awhile. I was also disappointed in Blue Champagne, but for very different reasons: what bothered me about the collection was the increasingly tired, cynical, and even bitter tone of so many of the stories. Especially, I must add, "The Manhatten Phone Book (Abridged)", which borders on diatribe. Even the much-praised "Press Enter" reminds me more of Harlan Ellison than of the Varley of, say, "Daemon", which I quite hugely and unashamedly loved (you will also gather I am not a fan of Harlan Ellison :-)). If this is the style that Varley wants to write in now, that is of course his privilege; he does it well. Nor have I any quarrel with the people who enjoy it. But when I compare the sense of joy and wonder of "The Persistence of Vision" with the searing futility of "The Manhatten Phone Book (Abridged)", or the weary horror of "Press Enter", I too am disappointed. Don McKillican {utzoo,seismo}!mnetor!genat!clunk!don ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 16:38:35 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Fred Hoyle [sentient computers] > From: diku!khan (Klaus Hansen) > Fred Hoyle: The message from Andromeda (?) It was A FOR ANDROMEDA, which had a sequel called ANDROMEDA BREAKTHROUGH. They were by Fred Hoyle and John Elliot, and were novelizations of BBC television serials written by the same two authors. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 16:39:28 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Fredric Brown [sentient computers] > From: PUGH%CCX.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA (Jon Pugh) > ...a great many of the best sentient computer stories were of the > short variety. Including the first and most classic short-short > where they fired up the first sentient computer and asked it "Is > there a God?" and the computer said, "There is now!" It was a one > page story that I read LONG ago. Perhaps Jerry can enlighten us > as to where. This story is "Answer" by Fredric Brown, and first appeared in his collection ANGELS AND SPACESHIPS. It can also be found in THE BEST OF FREDRIC BROWN. I first read it in a Damon Knight anthology, THE METAL SMILE. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 86 16:53:14 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: 42 (asking questions of computers) While not strictly a sentient computer story (but while we're on the subject of asking 'em questions), there was a story about a the first super computer where someone asks "What's the source of humor?" and the answer was "Extra- Terrestrial." I won't describe the final results of this Q'n'A, but if someone could post the author and title from this very basic outline, I *do* recommend the story. Might have been William Tenn ('twas weird enough). Kris Stephens 408-746-6047 amdahl!krs ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 86 02:42:03 GMT From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jon Meltzer) Subject: Re: 42 (asking questions of computers) krs@amdahl.UUCP (Kris Stephens) writes: >While not strictly a sentient computer story (but while we're on >the subject of asking 'em questions), there was a story about a the >first super computer where someone asks "What's the source of >humor?" and the answer was "Extra- Terrestrial." I won't describe >the final results of this Q'n'A, but if someone could post the >author and title from this very basic outline, I *do* recommend the >story. Might have been William Tenn ('twas weird enough). Isaac Asimov, "Jokester" ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 86 21:00:56 GMT From: tekred!richa@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Rich Amber ) Subject: Request of assistance on use of Torcs I am working on a fantasy novel set in Europe c.400-900AD +- a few centuries. What I am searching for is correct historical information on the uses of the torc throughout Europe (a device worn around the neck that looks like a twisted collar). Encyclopedic entries are not too explicit, so I am turning to other fantasy works to find what I can about this device. Other than "The Golden Torc," do any of you know of fiction and/or historical works that mention this device? Your input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Rich Amber ------------------------------ Date: 25 Dec 86 00:56:32 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Request of assistance on use of Torcs richa@tekred.UUCP (Rich Amber ) writes: >I am working on a fantasy novel set in Europe c.400-900AD +- a few >centuries. What I am searching for is correct historical information >on the uses of the torc throughout Europe (a device worn around the >neck that looks like a twisted collar). Encyclopedic entries are >not too explicit, so I am turning to other fantasy works to find >what I can about this device. > >Other than "The Golden Torc," do any of you know of fiction and/or >historical works that mention this device? Your input would be >greatly appreciated. Thank you. How about something by Jack Vance, "The Brave, Free Men" or the novel on either side of it. Of course those were explosive, which may not be quite what you're looking for. 8-(. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Jan 87 1000-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #3 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 5 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 3 Today's Topics: Films - Star Trek (12 msgs) & Dark Star & Dune & SF Humor & Title Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Dec 86 12:27 EST From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Star Trek IV Seeing STIV is like having a meal of cotton candy and chocolate: sweet, but not very satisfying. When I heard that the general theme was a time-travel-to-save-the-whales story, my hopes fell. This movie had the same flaw that 3 out of the 4 ST movies has: there is no strong villanous personality to balance against Kirk and Co. Most of the best ST episodes have our heros pitted against believable deadly and/or interesting antagonists: Khan, Nomad, Harry Mudd, the Gorn, the Horta, the Squire of Gothos, Gary Seven, Landru, Gorgon, Gary Mitchell, not to mention myriad Klingon and Romulan captains. STIV starts with the oldest premise in SF: the aliens-destroying- the Earth scenario. As soon as you find out what they want, you know the rest of the movie: they travel into the past, have a few (mis)adventures, get the damn whales, bring them back, and we have a nice, sugary happy ending a la Star Wars. Disappointingly enough, this is just what happens. Some ways the movie could have been made more interesting: Having a major character get killed off, so that some sacrifice was involved in saving the Earth (Chekov would be ideal.) Giving the whales some ideas of their own. Have the Klingons intercept Kirk's message, and also travel into the past to try to stop Kirk from preventing Earth's destruction. I do have a few good things to say about it, however. The humor was subtle and well-used. I especially liked the line where Kirk tries to explain Spock's weird behavior as a result of "...taking too much LDS during the sixties". However, if you want to do a comedy, go whole hog. They should have gotten Roger Carmel before he bit the dust, and we could have been seeing STAR TREK IV: THE WRATH OF MUDD. Now THAT would have been a funny movie! That's why I feel that STII has still maintained its place as the best ST movie to date. STI's incoherent plot was further debilitated by the improbable V'ger (Nomad could kick its ass). I understand that a lot of dialog that clarified things was omitted, and I would like to see it again if Paramount ever releases a version with the missing footage reinserted. STIII had a villan, but I still see Reverend Jim every time I watch him ("Captain Kirk. You don't want to give me the Genesis device? ....pffffff....Okey Doke."). ...pffffff....Okey Doke."). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 86 12:39:57 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Star Trek IV -- Marketing A query about movie production and marketing: It seems to me, from my position completely outside the movie/entertainment industry, that one of the best ways to increase the attendance at a sequel movie is to be sure that the maximum possible number of people have seen the preceeding movie in the series. And the best way to do THAT is to show that preceeding movie on network TV (NOT cable, especially premium channels, which have an inherently limited exposure when compared with broadcast network TV, which can reach some large percentage (90%+) of the population). So, with ST IV, TVH due out as a Christmas movie, I would have expected the producers to have arranged for the network premiere of ST III, TSfS, sometime this last October or November. As we all know, it didn't happen that way. Anyone know why? Am I wrong in my assumptions listed above? Does TV-broadcast of a preceeding movie NOT have that much effect on the box-office of a sequel? ST II, TWoK, has been aired on network TV. But I just cannot recall how the dates of its broadcast(s) [I think it's been on network TV only once, right?] related to the theatre-release date of ST III, TSfS. Can anyone post specifics about that? That is, was it used as a lead-in to its sequel, or was the third movie already released when the second was first broadcast? Thanks, regards, and a happy holiday season! Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 86 19:39 EST From: Subject: Star Trek Movie Poll Hi there! How about a Star Trek Movie poll? Send me your vote for the best ST movie including a short (very short) comment about why you think its the best and I'll post back a summary and the outcome in the next few weeks. Live long and prosper! Danny Choriki The Graduate School of the City Univ. of New York dac%cunyvms1.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 86 16:15:43 CST From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: Star Trek IV From Gellerman.osbunorth@Xerox.COM: > Personally, I find it hard to believe that nearly every single > person has found this movie to be a wonderful movie -- better than > STII:TWOK. The Wrath of Kahn was such a classic movie, and this > cannot compare. Let me qualify by saying, I liked STIV, and I'm > glad I saw it. I just can't understand how all the long-time fans > out there think it's better than STII.... So far, I guess I'm > only the second person in the world not to be completely thrilled > with this movie. Doesn't ANYONE out there agree with some of the > these points? I agree with you completely! Yes ST-III and ST-IV were good and enjoyable movies. Funny, witty, and good relief for frustrated Star Trek fans everywhere. But they just do not compare to ST-II:TWoK. Perhaps someone who likes comedies better than adventure movies would think that IV was better than II, but I don't think that IV was all that deep. Yes there were a few unexplained mysteries, but some of them were never resolved and weren't all that important anyway. But TWoK had the adventure, the suspense, the "How's Kirk gonna get out of this one" mystery. The most suspense that TVH had was during the slingshots, and that was no big deal. TVH was a good movie for Star Trek fans. It had alot of the character interplay that fans grew to love through the years. But as far as just being an all around great movie, "The Wrath of Kahn" still takes it. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University phil@Rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 86 20:52:36 GMT From: elxsi!billp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Petro) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV; Constitution vs. Constellation class ihm@minnie.UUCP (Ian Merritt) writes: >Not to stir up the dust again (though I am sure it will) the STIV >book makes reference to the Constellation class when refering to >the Enterprise II. To stir up the dust again, Vondra McIntyre's books are wrong. If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a horse have? A horse has four legs. Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg. The Enterprise has always been called a Constitution class ship in many previous sources, "The Making of Star Trek", "The Star Trek Technical Manual", etc. Bill Petro ({ucbvax!sun,altos86,styx}!elxsi!billp) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 86 13:38:33 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald(Sarek) Subject: Whale songs Maybe Uhura was just scanning channels at random, as she did in Patterns of Force, and picked up the whalesong then. I still don't know what how she picked them up, but this doesn't require her to be expecting to find them. Or, she could she scanning air vibrations, looking for whalesong...the Vulcan sensors, or maybe even Klingon ones, might be able to pick up sound across vacuum that way. In fact, this seems the most reasonable answer. Can we do it with 20th century technology? st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 86 10:43:56 pst From: ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Hildum) Subject: Conscience of the King I believe that Kirk was stationed on the planet in question very early in his career, not actually living there at the time. You'll probably need to find an uncut version of the episode to check on this. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 16:23 EST From: Thomas Whitaker Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #409 From: dbj@Juliet.Caltech.Edu (David B. Jemison) >I have now seen ST4 twice (agreeing with almost everyone that it is >by far the best st movie). While watching the opening credits the >second time, I noticed a "Commander (?) Chapel" with (I thought) >the same actress who played Nurse Chapel in the series. However, >neither my friend or I remembered seeing her in the movie. Does >anyone know where she appeared, or did I just imagine it (my friend >noticed it also)? Chapel had a very small walk-on in one of the panic scenes at UFP headquaters. She was seen on a communication-device saying something about needing all the power available for the medical banks. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 87 15:07:02 GMT From: ece-csc!mauney@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jon Mauney) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV bright@dataio.UUCP (Walter Bright) writes: >Scotty asks the plastics man to figure out how thick the plastic >would have to be to withstand the pressure of 60,000(?) gallons of >water on a panel x by y. The man says 'that's easy, 6 inches'. The >problem as stated only makes sense if the water formed a column >positioned directly over the plastic panel, but the panels clearly >formed the wall of the aquarium, not the floor. Easy. The plastics man doesn't know anymore about hydrostatics than Scotty does, nor is he really able to do those calculations in his head, but last week he made a 1-inch-thick panel for a 10,000 gallon tank, so he figures 6 inches must be good for 60,000 gallons. Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer. :-) Jon Mauney mcnc!ece-csc!mauney North Carolina State University ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jan 87 15:37:18 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald(Sarek) Subject: Re:Constitution/Constellation The Constellation was Matt Decker's ship in "The Doomsday Machine". If it had been the class name ship (or whatever the naval parlance is) I am sure that one of the bridge crew would have said something. Right? st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jan 87 15:40:04 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald(Sarek) Subject: Time travel/TVH When the Bounty came back to the future from the 20th century, for a few minutes, they were there before they had left. This could lead to interesting occurences, if explored further... st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri 02 Jan 1987 08:27 CST From: Subject: Star Trek -- All this bickering I have spent the last month and a half watching people on SF-Lovers bicker over things that are fictional as though it were fact. I go to movies to ENJOY myself. I am not going to movies to take as gospel every bit of information presented in that medium. (or TV for that matter.) Why take seriously that which was originally intended to entertain. To do this, in my opnion, is to take away that element that makes it enertaining, an escape, no matter how brief, from reality. Incidently, I have not seen in many a year something that I would call "Science Fiction". To me this is fiction that is based on a author's extrapolation of science in the future from what is now known to be true. Everything else, in the realm of literature that has to deal with other technologies, is "Science Fantasy". Star Trek falls well, by this definition, within Science Fantasy. Now that I have gotten all that out of my system, I'll shut up....for now. Sincerly, Edward J. Lorden ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 86 13:25 PST From: zaphod%wwu.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: Dark Star Can anyone tell me who did the voice of the computer in Dark Star? I have a hunch, but I'm not quite sure. Dave Brown zaphod%wwu@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 17:04:37 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: DUNE (movie) > From: nott-cs!pdc > I heard a rumour somewhere that Dune the film, although cut down > for general release was also available to cons and the like > complete with the full plot done almost page by page. Is this true > and has anybody seen the film if it does exist? > > PS I've just remembered in a book of Frank Herberts short stories > there was something in it on his views on the film, and in that he > mentioned that it might be released, full length as a mini series > on the box. True or just speculation? The only version of the film currently available is the one that was released to the theaters. I've have heard from various sources that all of the footage shot will be re-edited into a 5-hour (net, which would most likely be 6 hours with commercials) mini-series for television. When and if this ever happens is anyone's guess. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 25 Dec 86 08:27:05 GMT From: crash!victoro@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dr. Snuggles) Subject: Re: East Coast humorists tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) writes: >OK, there are two tapes that have been done up in the "What's Up >Tiger Lily" style; You Say Yamoto... and Dr. Who And The Invasion >Of The Croutons. These were done by Phil Foglio and Nick (not >Mike) Smith. If anyone would be interested in showing their creations (I'm asking the people with the right to show them to others) I would very much like to hear from you. You see, I'm the chairman of the San Diego Comic Con (7,000 plus attendence) Video Channel and I would love to show more original parodies. We are also attemptineg to use the channel as an outlet for new talent (such as new programs from the biog companies) so this would be an ideal area to test market. >"You Klingon sons, you killed my bastard!" >J.T. Kirk in Peter David's ST III parody Also the secondary title to the Hogu award to the film that year. Victor O'Rear {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc ------------------------------ Date: 31 Dec 86 15:17:10 GMT From: ihuxi!store2@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wilcox) Subject: Re: Finding the Title Speaking of forgotten titles, I have been trying to find the title to a movie I saw years ago. I remember little about the movie except it was a parallel universe type of movie in which the hero was trying to get back to the woman he loved. I saw it on the late movies at the time, so I'm sure it is at least 20 years old and I think it was in black and white. I also think it was set in England, so it might have been a British movie. Does anyone know if there is a definitive listing of SF/fantasy movies with a short synopsis that I might find in the library or somewhere? Thanks... Kit Kimes AT&T--Information Systems Labs 1100 E. Warrenville Rd. Naperville, IL 60566 ...ihnp4!iwvae!kimes ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Jan 87 1020-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #4 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 5 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 4 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Bradbury (4 msgs) & Ellison (2 msgs) & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Zelazny (3 msgs) & Generation Ship Stories (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Jan 87 21:24:42 GMT From: cracraft@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Foundation's Edge Did anyone else like Foundation's Edge as much as I do? It is remarkable that Asimov was able to come back after 32 years and write it so well. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 02:57:41 GMT From: hscfvax!spem@rutgers.rutgers.edu (G. T. Samson) Subject: Re: YASR (Yet Another Story Request) ins_adjb@jhunix.UUCP (Daniel Jay Barrett) writes: >The short story takes place on a planet which is extremely hot. It >is so hot, in fact, that the people can only venture outside of >their homes (caves?) for about an hour each day. If they stay out >too long, they are burned to a crisp. At night, the temperature >drops below the freezing point (of bodies), so they can't go out at >night either. > > The people of the story have an extremely short lifespan -- >like 8 days, I think. > > The protagonist, I recall, discovers a wrecked spaceship on the >planet's surface. He realizes that he cannot both explore the ship >AND return to his home before the sun fries him. I think it's "Fire and Ice", by Ray Bradbury. Bradbury is probably the person most responsible for my adult attachment to science fiction, since he dared to write stuff for children that actually stretched their minds. Great stuff, too! G. T. Samson gts@hscfvax.HARVARD.EDU gts@borax.LCS.MIT.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 86 09:09 EST From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Story Request Reply > The short story takes place on a planet which is extremely hot. >It is so hot, in fact, that the people can only venture outside of >their homes (caves?) for about an hour each day. If they stay out >too long, they are burned to a crisp. At night, the temperature >drops below the freezing point (of bodies), so they can't go out at >night either. The people of the story have an extremely short >lifespan -- like 8 days, I think. This story is "Frost and Fire" by Ray Bradbury. It is in the book "R is for Rocket". (or is it "S is for Space"). It supposedly takes place on Mercury. Excellent story! ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 17:38:11 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Story request answer (Ray Bradbury) From: jhunix!ins_adjb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett) > The people of the story have an extremely short lifespan -- like > 8 days, I think. It's "Frost and Fire" by Ray Bradbury, originally from the Fall 1946 PLANET STORIES, and also in Bradbury's collection R IS FOR ROCKET. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 29-Dec-1986 1405 From: butenhof%clt.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Pre-owned software, cheap!) Subject: story request: hot/cold/short lives > The short story takes place on a planet which is extremely hot. > It is so hot, in fact, that the people can only venture outside of > their homes (caves?) for about an hour each day. The story is "Ice and Fire" by Ray Bradbury... I believe it may be in "The Golden Apples of the Sun", but I'm not certain about that. Great story... I've probably read it 20 times (and I can *never* remember which collection to look for it in!) Dave Butenhof ZKO2-3/K06 Digital Equipment Corp. 110 Spitbrook Road Nashua NH 03062 DEC ENET: clt::butenhof ARPANET: BUTENHOF%CLT.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM UUCP: {decvax,allegra,ucbvax}!decwrl!clt.dec.com!butenhof ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 17:42:39 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: THE STARLOST From: vax1!jsm (Jon Meltzer) > Ed Bryant novelized "Phoenix Without Ashes". Ellison's script was > published a few years ago in a (Roger Elwood?) anthology of SF > drama. I suspect you're confusing this with Ellison's STAR TREK script, "City on the Edge of Forever", which appeared in Elwood's SIX SCIENCE FICTION PLAYS (1976). "Phoenix Without Ashes" (the teleplay) *was* published, but in FASTER THAN LIGHT, edited by Jack Dann and George Zebrowski (1976). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 25 Dec 86 13:27:47 GMT From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: THE STARLOST boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: > From: vax1!jsm (Jon Meltzer) >> Ed Bryant novelized "Phoenix Without Ashes". Ellison's script was >> published a few years ago in a (Roger Elwood?) anthology of SF >> drama. >I suspect you're confusing this with Ellison's STAR TREK script, >"City on the Edge of Forever", which appeared in Elwood's SIX >SCIENCE FICTION PLAYS (1976). > >"Phoenix Without Ashes" (the teleplay) *was* published, but in >FASTER THAN LIGHT, edited by Jack Dann and George Zebrowski (1976). Sorry, jaymebee, but the original poster is correct. Edward Bryant did indeed novelize Harlan Ellison's STARLOST pilot script *PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES*. Ellison's "I Don't Think We're in Kansas Anymore, Toto" essay had its first appearance as the introduction to this book. A good novelization, and something of a collector's item. Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 86 01:13:21 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: So someone finally noticed? wb8foz@ncoast.UUCP (David Lesher)... >To further confuse the issue... I remember a story about people >stuck on a generation ship and not knowing it. A mutiny killed off >most of the crew. The protagonist escaped in the last lifeboat, >after finding the ships log. He had a large friend, all muscle/no >brain killed in the climax. This story FAR predated STARLOST. >Does it ring any bells? So someone else noticed that there are one H*LL of a lot of imitations of Heinlein's UNIVERSE out there, huh? (Or was even *that* an imitation of something earlier? If so, I haven't been able to find the original.) I wondered how long it'd take... David Gerrold has done at least two (YESTERDAY'S CHILDREN and THE GALACTIC WHIRLPOOL), to name one repeat offender off the list... Brandon S. Allbery cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!tdi2!brandon ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 before 10:15am or after 8:00 pm ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jan 87 12:16:26 GMT From: ism780c!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Smith) Subject: Re: So someone finally noticed? I seem to recall reading somewhere that UNIVERSE by Heinlein was not the first such story. Someone else did one in the thirties or forties, but his was so much better that it is his that everyone is getting the idea from. Sort of like Asimov and robot stories. On the other hand, I am not sure about this. I think I read it in something Asimov wrote, but that doesn't do much good in narrowing down the source! Tim Smith USENET: sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim Compuserve: 72257,3706 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 86 00:44:06 GMT From: sdsu!cademy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Robert Cademy) Subject: Amber A while back there was a discussion of the Amber series. (The two series, first of five books, and second of two books - so far.) Did anyone save the discussion, because I have just finished reading the two series and am interested in other opinions. I have some guesses as to what certain things mean - like the Keep of Four Worlds, and the "off the wall" last three pages in Blood of Amber. If anyone has information like this I would like to hear it. Robert Cademy UUCP: ...!sdcsvax!sdsu!cademy ARPA: sdsu!cademy@{nosc|sdcsvax} ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jan 87 16:26:49 GMT From: sdsu!cademy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Robert Cademy) Subject: Re: Amber stiber@zeus (Michael D Stiber) writes: >I didn't know about the second series. Can someone post info in >it? (no spoilers, please) The second series has two books in it (so far). These are called: 1) Trumps of Doom (1985) 2) Blood of Amber (1986) However, I must warn you that the second book leaves you hanging. It is defined as a trilogy, but then again, so was the first series from what I understand. Robert Cademy UUCP: ...sdcsvax!sdsu!cademy Arpa: sdsu!cademy@{sdcsvax|nosc} ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 87 15:18:38 GMT From: hadron!jsdy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Joseph S. D. Yao) Subject: Re: Amber cademy@sdsu.UUCP (Robert Cademy) writes: >is defined as a trilogy, but then again, so was the first series >from Not so. RZ's first idea (I understand) was to write one novel from each of the sibs' viewpoints -- nine? Then he got tired halfway through (started writing himself in & other boredom- relieving tricks), and decided to end it; but various characters knocked on his head (he says) and made him write a couple more. And then characters he hadn't originally had in mind started appearing ... Joe Yao hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP} jsdy@hadron.COM (not yet domainised) ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 86 04:58:05 GMT From: ncoast!wb8foz@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: THE STARLOST >I suspect you're confusing this with Ellison's STAR TREK script, >"City on the Edge of Forever", which appeared in Elwood's SIX >SCIENCE FICTION PLAYS (1976). To further confuse the issue... I remember a story about people stuck on a generation ship and not knowing it. A mutiny killed off most of the crew. The protagonist escaped in the last lifeboat, after finding the ships log. He had a large friend, all muscle/no brain killed in the climax. This story FAR predated STARLOST. Does it ring any bells? decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!wb8foz ncoast!wb8foz@case.csnet (ncoast!wb8foz%case.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 86 15:04:29 GMT From: ihlpa!lew@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: THE STARLOST > I remember a story about people stuck on a generation ship and not > knowing it. A mutiny killed off most of the crew. The protagonist > escaped in the last lifeboat, after finding the ships log. He had > a large friend, all muscle/no brain killed in the climax. This > story FAR predated STARLOST. Does it ring any bells? Yes, that rings a bell, although I'm sure it's not the same story. I remember one about a youth who has to make a trek through the different parts of the ship as his rite of passage into manhood. He is an "enginer". All the different parts of the ship are called "The Place of the ...". I think he's from "The Place of the Enginers". He goes through the agricultural section ( I don't recall its place name ) and sees rain ( artificial of course ) for the first time. He ends up in The Place of the Revellers whose inhabitants are ironically confined to wheel chairs since they have grown so lethargic from watching videos of sports events that their limbs have atrophied. I remember this place name because I didn't know what "reveller" meant. He discovers some sort of archive and finds out that the ship is approaching its programmed landing. He has to convince people that action must be taken so they won't crash. They land safely and the story ends with them breathing fresh air on the surface of their new planet. This story is circa 1960. Lew Mammel, Jr. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Dec 86 19:33:19 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: THE STARLOST wb8foz@ncoast.UUCP (David Lesher) writes: > I remember a story about people stuck on a generation ship and not > knowing it. A mutiny killed off most of the crew. The protagonist > escaped in the last lifeboat, after finding the ships log. He had > a large friend, all muscle/no brain killed in the climax. This > story FAR predated STARLOST. Does it ring any bells? Is this the story line for "Orphans of the Sky" by Robert Heinlein? If so, it was originally published in "Astounding" in 1941. Kris Stephens 408-746-6047 amdahl!krs ------------------------------ Date: 31 Dec 86 20:49:31 GMT From: wade@sdacs.ucsd.EDU (Wade Blomgren) Subject: Re: THE STARLOST wb8foz@ncoast.UUCP (David Lesher) writes: > I remember a story about people stuck on a generation ship and not > knowing it. A mutiny killed off most of the crew. ..... Is this possibly "Orphans of the Sky" by Heinlein? It was also released under another title (What was that title?) As I remember it was a relatively short book. Wade UCSD ...sdcsvax!sdacs!wade ------------------------------ Date: 31 Dec 86 15:34:17 GMT From: druhi!bryan@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: THE STARLOST wb8foz@ncoast.UUCP writes: > To further confuse the issue... I remember a story about people > stuck on a generation ship and not knowing it. A mutiny killed off > most of the crew. The protagonist escaped in the last lifeboat, > after finding the ships log. He had a large friend, all muscle/no > brain killed in the climax. This story FAR predated STARLOST. > Does it ring any bells? That's Heinlein's "Orphans of the Sky", published (I think) originally in two parts: "Universe" and "Common Sense". The main character's name is Hugh Hoyland, and the "all muscles" character is a "Mutie" (taken either from "Mutant", cause they're all exposed to radiation all the time, or "Mutineer", cause they're supposedly the descendants of the mutineers who managed to kill off much of the crew) named "Bobo." There's also this two-headed Mutie named "Joe-Jim" (you can guess why). John T. Bryan AT&T Information Systems 12110 N. Pecos, #8C350 Denver, CO 80234 USENET: ...!ihnp4!druhi!bryan PHONE: (303) 538-5172 ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 87 02:07:23 GMT From: g-willia@gumby.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) Subject: Re: THE STARLOST wb8foz@ncoast.UUCP (David Lesher) writes: > I remember a story about people stuck on a generation ship and not > knowing it. A mutiny killed off most of the crew. The protagonist > escaped in the last lifeboat, after finding the ships log. He had > a large friend, all muscle/no brain killed in the climax. Does it > ring any bells? This sounds like a trilogy by Ben Bova that I read as a child, so I don't remember the name. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 87 02:49:18 GMT From: unirot!carroll@rutgers.rutgers.edu (mark carroll) Subject: Re: THE STARLOST The story you describe sounds like a Heinlein book, called( I think), Generation Ship. Im not sure of the title, since I it was a library book I read 6 years ago, but I am sure its by Robert Heinlein. Mark Carroll rutgers!carroll@RU-AIM.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 87 14:09:38 GMT From: mende@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende) Subject: Re: THE STARLOST > This sounds like a trilogy by Ben Bova that I read as a child, so > I don't remember the name. That is the Exiles Triology by Ben Bova... I read it a few years ago.. Bob Mende ARPA: mende@caip.rutgers.edu UUCP: {anywhere}!rutgers!caip!mende Snail: RPO 4888 CN 5063 New Brunswick NJ 08903 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Jan 87 0842-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #5 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 6 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 5 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley (8 msgs) & Brust ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jan 87 13:14:43 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request stiber@zeus (Michael D Stiber) writes: >I just finished reading _Darkover Landfall_, and would now like to >read the other Darkover books. Does someone have a bibliography, >in chronological order (Darkover time)? It would be nice to be able >to read the books in "historical" order. Thanks! I don't have this info handy, but I would suggest *NOT* trying to read the books in Darkover order, but rather in the order in which they were published. The books span MZB's writing career and display a lot of character development on the part of the author. You will probably find the stories more consistant if you follow along. Now personally, I think somewhere along the way MZB watched one too many soap opras and lost it, moving from sense of wonder fantasy to endless inter/intra personal conflict...still worth reading, although tastes may vary. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 87 18:46:21 GMT From: unirot!liz@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mamaliz ) Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request stiber@zeus (Michael D Stiber) writes: >Does someone have a bibliography, in chronological order (Darkover >time)? Don't bother reading the books in chronological order. They really do not work that way (Bradley is not one to stay with an outdated character). Instead read them in this order or something like it The Spell Sword The Forbidden Tower The (Something - don't have the books with me) Sun The rest of them as you pick them up. Darkover Landfall is one of the weakest books in the series, the other books deal ideas that some people find uncomfortable. They are also written in various styles which other people find uncomfortable. If you don't like one, you can always try another. If you are anti-feminist or anti-gay, I would not bother buying them for your own enjoyment. Disclaimer: I have read and enjoyed ALL of the Darkover books, but I have also listened to various members of my household hoot the "dreck". liz sommers everywhere!rutgers!{unirot|soup|mama}!liz sommers@rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 87 07:21:26 GMT From: reed!ellen@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ellen Eades) Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request O.K., here's the new improved Darkover list and Marion Zimmer Bradley bibliography... Ellen Eades (tektronix!reed!ellen) In order of publication: Darkovan chronology: Planet Savers, 1962 Darkover Landfall Sword of Aldones, 1962 Stormqueen! Bloody Sun, 1964 Two to Conquer Star of Danger, 1966 Hawkmistress! Winds of Darkover, 1970 Shattered Chain (part 1) World Wreckers, 1971 Spell Sword Darkover Landfall, 1972 Forbidden Tower Spell Sword, 1972 Shattered Chain (part 2) Heritage of Hastur, 1975 Thendara House Shattered Chain, 1976 City of Sorcery Forbidden Tower, 1977 Star of Danger Stormqueen!, 1978 Winds of Darkover Bloody Sun (rewrite), 1979 Bloody Sun Two to Conquer, 1980 Heritage of Hastur Keeper's Price*, 1980 Planet Savers Sharra's Exile, 1981 Sharra's Exile/Sword of Aldones% Sword of Chaos*, 1982 World Wreckers Hawkmistress!, 1982 Return to Darkover Thendara House, 1983 City of Sorcery, 1984 Return to Darkover, (scheduled release 1986) *Keeper's Price & Sword of Chaos are short story anthologies by Bradley and others, chosen by MZB to be nearest to her personal view of Darkover & thus "authentic." %Sharra's Exile is a rewrite of Sword of Aldones and thus occupies the same chronological niche. Mini-series or direct sequels to one another: Spell Sword/Forbidden Tower/Bloody Sun (rewrite) Shattered Chain/Thendara House/City of Sorcery Heritage of Hastur/Sharra's Exile/Return to Darkover Non-Darkover science fiction: Fantasy: Seven from the Stars, 1957 Dark Satanic, 1972 The Door Through Space, 1961 In the Steps of the Master, 1973 Falcons of Narabedla, 1964 Drums of Darkness, 1976 The Brass Dragon, 1970 House Between the Worlds, 1980 Colors of Space, 1974 Web of Light, 1982 Endless Voyage, 1975 Web of Darkness, 1983 Endless Universe*, 1979 The Inheritor, 1984 Hunters of the Red Moon, 1975 Night's Daughter, 1985 The Survivors**, 1979 Warrior Woman, 1986 The Ruins of Isis, 1979 Survey Ship, 1980 *Endless Universe same as Endless Voyage plus two more novelettes about the Explorers **Survivors is sequel to Hunters of the Red Moon. Mainstream: The Catch Trap, 1979 The Mists of Avalon, 1983 Anthologies: Dark Intruder & Other Stories, 1964 Greyhaven, 1983 Sword & Sorceress, 1984 Sword & Sorceress v. 2, 1985 Sword & Sorceress v. 3, 1986 Gothics: Castle Terror, 1965 Souvenir of Monique, 1967 Bluebeard's Daughter, 1968 Can Ellen Be Saved?, pub. date unknown There is also a series of new fan activity centering around the Darkover universe. These are the addresses that I have: (PLEASE ENCLOSE A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE) For "Relays," a Darkover newsletter: Paella n'ha Mhari P.O. box 2048 Sacramento, CA 95810 Free Amazon newsletter: Tess Kolney 2114 James Avenue Minneapolis, MN 55411 Council Lists (Darkover fans in your area) Ambria Ridenow P.O. Box 915 Felton, CA 95018 Contes de Cottman IV (fiction fanzine) Lynn Holdom P.O. Box 5 Pompton Lakes, NJ o7442 Darkovan Dictionary/Language John Shimwell 407 Clayton St. San Francisco, CA 94117 There are two annual USA Darkover conventions: Grand Council Meeting (East Coast) Fantasy Worlds Festival (West Coast) ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 87 07:07:05 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request THe Darkover books are of vastly uneven quality. Far and away the best is the _Heritage of Hastur_ - _Sharra's Exile_ pair, which contain the original Darkover story as revised when MZB had matured as a writer. _Forbidden Tower_ and _Stormqueen_ also have some merit in my mind, as does the title story in _Sword of Chaos_ (a rare instance of MZB's more literary voice appearing in the Darkover series, by the way). Avoid _Sword of Aldones_ at all cost. Unfortunately MZB has begun to take the series too seriously. In recent DarkoverCons in Wilmington she has hosted seminars on how to run a free amazon house, and various people have claimed that she sponsers such a group back home. Personally, I prefer some of her other works; I have always enjoyed the Lythande stories, and I really like _House Between the Worlds_. If you have to read the Darkover stories in some order, read them in *reverse* chronological order; the books which were conceived first were the ones come latest in Darkover history, and the ones coming earlier historically tend to require those written first to be properly understood. C. WIngate ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 87 21:15:32 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request >I don't have this info handy, but I would suggest *NOT* trying to >read the books in Darkover order, but rather in the order in which >they were published. This is excellent advice, as the rules got changed in midstream. Try the following order: The Sword of Aldones The Planet Savers (The Door through Space) (marginal) (Falcons of Narabedla) (marginal) Star of Danger The Winds of Darkover The Bloody Sun (The *old* version) The World Wreckers Darkover Landfall These may be described as the old canon, though Landfall is transitional. The Spell Sword The Forbidden Tower The Bloody Sun (The new version) The Heritage of Hastur Shaara's Exile (Sword of Aldones, revisited) Stormqueen Two to Conquer The Broken Chain Hawkmistress Thendara House City of Sorcery (title?) The chronological thing to do would be to read Stormqueen after Darkover Landfall--and you really don't want to do that. The earlier books were explicitly written to stand on their own as well as as members of a series. In the later books this ideal is abandoned. Further, MZB has engaged in fairly extensive *rewriting* of her earlier Darkovan history. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (edu or bitnet) (or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jan 87 10:16:36 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request mangoe@mimsy.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >Unfortunately MZB has begun to take the series too seriously. In >recent DarkoverCons in Wilmington she has hosted seminars on how to >run a free amazon house, and various people have claimed that she >sponsers such a group back home. I don't think that this is an accurate representation. In the prefaces to some of her anthologies she gives the impression that she is pleased that some people have found some of her ideas worthy of serious consideration and is interested in attempts to work them through. Likewise, she is please that others have used her universe as an entry to serious writing, but that doesn't keep here from turning a critical eye on the results and trying to separate the creative from the imatative. >Personally, I prefer some of her other works; I have always enjoyed >the Lythande stories, and I really like _House Between the Worlds_. Sorry, I think Lythande is an accident, a short story that grew without enough basis for more. Sure, nice color and interesting encounters, but I keep asking WHY? George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 87 23:54:20 GMT From: sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green) Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >mangoe@mimsy.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >>Unfortunately MZB has begun to take the series too seriously. In >>recent DarkoverCons in Wilmington she has hosted seminars on how >>to run a free amazon house, and various people have claimed that >>she sponsers such a group back home. > >I don't think that this is an accurate representation. I agree with the first poster; I think MZB has stopped writing good Darkover novels and begun writing mildly-interesting to boring polemics. I was at the last Darkover Grand Council in Wilmington, where she did indeed run what was billed as a Free Amazon meeting. I went to it thinking that it was going to be a discussion of the Free Amazons. Foolish me! It was a meeting of women (closed to men, about which more in a moment) who sat around and talked about how _this_ world oppresses women, and in particular how it did so when these women were growing up (average age 35). Don't get this wrong; I am a feminist too. But the meeting was not billed as a consciousness-raising group / bitch session, and that's what it was. Not a word was said about Free Amazons on Darkover. I felt let down. A male friend of mine asked MZB in the autograph line earlier that day if he could come to the meeting. She said no. They discussed it for a minute. I was standing behind him in line, and can say that they both were perfectly polite. He asked, she answered, he questioned, she explained, he said okay. At the Free Amazon meeting, then she opened it by talking about him. He had been wearing a kilt; she did a little unwarranted speculation on "this man in a dress who wanted to come to the women's meeting". I was late, and heard about this from a friend who was there. I have met a woman who claimed to be MZB's oath-daughter. This woman said that she had sworn the original oath (a revised version has been written for Terran women in this society) and was _very_ serious about it. Shoshanna Green ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 87 15:23:51 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request I wrote: >>Unfortunately MZB has begun to take the series too seriously. In >>recent DarkoverCons in Wilmington she has hosted seminars on how >>to run a free amazon house, and various people have claimed that >>she sponsers such a group back home. And George Robbins replied: >I don't think that this is an accurate representation. In the >prefaces to some of her anthologies she gives the impression that >she is pleased that some people have found some of her ideas worthy >of serious consideration and is interested in attempts to work them >through. It is, to best of my knowledge, an accurate description of events at the last two councils. I cannot testify for certain, since men were not permitted to attend the session in question; I am willing to vouch for the testimony of the woman I know who did attend the session. MZB also seems to take her position as leader of the occultish band which forms one of the three core groups of the convention seriously (to some extent; I don't want to get into a lengthy religious discussion here, but I don't think she takes it as seriously as she believes she does). This is rather disheartening, and I really hope it doesn't go on to interfere with the good things she does. The various anthologies she edits and sponsors provide a lot of fledgling (and more advanced) writers with a safe opportunity to write in relatively unexplored areas of the genre. Her reputation in that areas is well-deserved. But her veiled references to people "working through her ideas" do refer to the attempts to act out parts of darkover society in real life, unless the information I have is utterly wrong. Mr. Robbins is entitled to his opinion on Lythande. Personally, I am relieved at the advent of a group of stories which lead nowhere and form no real connected plot; a set of just good stories centering around the same character is rare enough these days. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 1987 00:12 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Teckla I certainly wouldn't call an assassin immature...nasty, mean, and vicious, but hardly immature... at least not to his face :) Anyway, my main problem with Teckla was that the Empire is not a human one, and doesn't behave like a human society. Example, every house gets a turn at the top. It just strikes me as a bit odd that 1) the lords would be all that cruel to their Teckla since they know that the Teckla will spend a period ruling the Empire; 2) that the Teckla, knowing that they will rule, would risk screwing it up. Sure, they have a few thousand years to wait, but we're talking about people that live for thousands of years; 3) doesn't Zerilka (the Empress) have the power to smash anyone with a link to the Orb? After all, she controls the source of all Empire sorcery, so it seems to be that it would be a bit difficult for any revolution to spring up when any opposing sorcerors can be squashed or at least cut from their source; 4) where did these conscripted Teckla come from? They certainly never showed up in Yendi (or am I just not remembering correctly?), and there were lots of Phoenix Guards around then; 5) finally, what good are barricades against a couple of annoyed wizards? I wouldn't think that the Guards would fight through, but would simply blast the things out of the way, and mop up what's left. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Jan 87 0857-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #6 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 6 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 6 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison & Niven (6 msgs) & Zelazny & Some Reviews ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Jan 87 18:34:42 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Harlan Ellison (was Re: John Varley's BLUE CHAMPAGNE) don@clunk.UUCP (Don McKillican) writes: >(you will also gather I am not a fan of Harlan Ellison :-)). I've gotta agree with you there, Don. I find Ellison's fiction drab and dreary. I *do* think, however, that he's one of the best anthologists in the business. For all his bitching and moaning during the ``Dangerous Visions'' series, he managed to collect a fascinating set of memorable stories and I actually enjoyed his many forwards. Since that was my first exposure to his work, I thought I'd try his fiction and that was a major disappointment. The film of ``A Boy and his Dog'' was good, too. Kris Stephens 408-746-6047 {whatever}!amdahl!krs ------------------------------ Date: 22 Dec 86 17:19:33 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vincent Manis) writes: >Eric Rickett discusses the use of alphabetic phone codes for >interstellar communication, and suggests phone numbers such as >"MikesBarAntares" (I prefer "(Antares)MikesBar", or even >"Continent1%MikesBar@Antares"). [Actually, given that Antares is a >red giant, I suspect Mike's is a pretty hot place.] > >But given the difficulty of centralising phone codes, I suspect the >address will be something more like > > Rigel!Procyon!Sirius!Alpha_Centauri_A!Antares!MikesBar Well, I still side with the other guy: everyone has personal databases, the teleport company has a phone "book" database. The *real* address would probably be represented by a series of base-256 numbers, given our current mode of computer storage (I think we'll be seing a BIG change in that by the time teleporters become standard household appliances)--a half-dozen 'characters' ought to handle it. A simple "Mike's, on Antares" should reduce the number of choices. >That's the reason that I have to dismiss (regretfully) the >possibility of an interstellar empire of the Trantor variety. It's >all fine to talk about governing several quadrillion people, but >the distances (even at FTL speeds) and number of planets would make >agreeing on anything almost impossible. I think that all depends on the technology. At the Roman Era tech level, an empire of, say, the U.S.'s scope would fall inside of a month. A pet theory of mine: An empire will expand (assuming it's capable of expansion) to a size which one can cross in about a month. Any larger, and the communication flow from capital to border will be too slow to react to outside forces. Just a theory. Also, I think that an average planet will tend to have a single political opinion if they have the technology. High levels of technology in the areas of communication and travel tend to do that. Look what's happened to the U.S. since the invention of radio and T.V., not to mention airplanes. seismo!nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 22 Dec 86 21:58:42 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes: >>That's the reason that I have to dismiss (regretfully) the >>possibility of an interstellar empire of the Trantor variety. It's >>all fine to talk about governing several quadrillion people, but >>the distances (even at FTL speeds) and number of planets would >>make agreeing on anything almost impossible. > >I think that all depends on the technology. At the Roman Era tech >level, an empire of, say, the U.S.'s scope would fall inside of a >month. A pet theory of mine: An empire will expand (assuming it's >capable of expansion) to a size which one can cross in about a >month. Any larger, and the com- munication flow from capital to >border will be too slow to react to outside forces. Just a theory. Well, the Roman empire was larger than the US, and took rather longer than a month to collapse. The time taken to get from Rome to some of the outlying provinces was very short for a fast courier, using the Roman roads and the staging posts, but it could take a year or more for a real army to get that far. The Mongol empire was even larger, and didn't collapse for lack of communication. And, to take an example from more recent history, the round-trip communication time between Britain and much of the Empire (eg Bombay, Cape Town, Sydney, Vancouver) in the early 19th century was between six months and eighteen months. And, to take an example from your own history, the travel time between Washington and California in the 1860's was several months. In the 1770's it could take three months just to get from the other side of the Appalachian range, which is why the procedures for electing the president have long delays built into them. There are many ways to build an empire that doesn't collapse due to lack of communications. The Romans faced this problem in the late republic and early empire, and their solutions are still worth studying. See, for example, the first book of Gibbon's Decline and Fall. Read also the events leading up to the Battle of Actium, for an account of perhaps the most serious threat arising form slow communications, an aggressive enemy, and not a little treason by the local high command. The topic of the "natural" evolution of empires is treated exhaustively (and exhaustingly) by Hegel, Toynbee, and Spengler. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 17:37:11 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Known Space bibliography From: Steve Dennett > With all this talk about Niven's "Known Space" stories, I'd like > to go back and read the books and stories. Can someone list all > the books and stories he's written about it (or tell me if such a > list already exists somewhere)? Thanks. In chronological order: [Note: The stories in TALES OF KNOWN SPACE span the entire known Known Space history (ie, "The Coldest Place" is the chronologically earliest story and "Safe at *Any* Speed" is the chronologically latest).] TALES OF KNOWN SPACE (1975) "The Coldest Place" "Becalmed in Hell" "Wait It Out" "Eye of an Octopus" "How the Heroes Die" "The Jigsaw Man" "At the Bottom of a Hole" "Intent to Deceive" "Cloak of Anarchy" "The Warriors" "The Borderland of Sol" "There is a Tide" "Safe at *Any* Speed" WORLD OF PTAAVS (1966) THE LONG ARM OF GIL HAMILTON (1976) "Death by Ecstasy" "The Defenseless Dead" "ARM" THE PATCHWORK GIRL (1980) PROTECTOR (1973) A GIFT FROM EARTH (1968) NEUTRON STAR (1968) "Neutron Star" "A Relic of Empire" "At the Core" "The Soft Weapon" "Flatlander" "The Ethics of Madness" "The Handicapped" "Grendel" RINGWORLD (1970) RINGWORLD ENGINEERS (1980) --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 23:26:22 GMT From: valid!jao@rutgers.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke >> [Niven] said, "do you know why there will never be a galactic >> empire? ... Because the phone numbers in the transporter booths >> would have to be so long, that nobody could ever dial them." He >> said this in all seriousness. The audience member said, "but you >> could address every square meter of every planet surface in the >> galaxy with just a few dozen digits." Niven looked at Jerry >> Pournelle ... and asked, "is that true?" Dr. Pournelle looked >> pretty embarrassed ... as he said "yes." "Oh," said Niven. > > I think you're being a bit hard on Niven here. I would think he > meant it in a light hearted way, and just hadn't thought it > through. ... "A few dozen digits" is definitely too much for me. > What would such a galactic phone book weigh anyway? Let me clarify. It has been over 10 years, so I don't remember the exact words, but it was clear that Niven did not mean that you couldn't "dial" the transporter booth numbers because they were too long to remember. He meant that you couldn't "dial" them because you would not live long enough. He obviously thought that log base 10 (number of transporter booths in a galactic empire) was in the millions, when actually it wouldn't be more than about 24. The point was that Niven doesn't understand big numbers. I agree with various posters that user interfaces will get much better. I do not fault Niven for not thinking about this on the fly. I do fault him for not knowing the difference between 24 and a million. John Oswalt ..!amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 86 04:13:56 GMT From: cerebus!ronc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (sysadm) Subject: Re: What Larry Niven doesn't know about mathematics peno@enea.UUCP (Pekka Nousiainen) writes: >>>Who would "dial" a phone in the future? > >>I was disturbed by this at first, because he was obviously >>referring to the punching of numbers into a keypad. >Why dial a *number* at all? When I want to access a file on this >machine do I type in a string of device and inode numbers? The >only reason we still use telephone numbers is that our computers >are too slow. Not the only reason. Why force a person to use a full keyboard when a keypad would do? Which is less expensive to mass produce? Which is easier to punch in, 8374928873, or Georgina Alvinof Rapnowski? >On a related note (this is too silly, my memory must be failing) I >seem to recall that if you dialed a non-existent number in a >transfer booth you would simply vanish. Such a system without even >elementary precautions would solve the population problem in no >time. I think your memory is failing. I can't prove I've read all the stories that include transfer booths, but I don't remember that. In fact, one of the stories (_Flash_Crowd_, I think) implies that the transmitting booth needs to make contact with the receiving booth. Mass (air, mostly) in the receiving booth gets transmitted back to the transmitting booth at the same time as the person arrives in the receiving booth. The same story makes a big deal about the safety of transfer booths. If the receiving booth can't receive for some reason, the person gets reflected back to the transmitting booth. The only real danger was if power failed at the exact moment of transfer. As someone else said, Niven has made blunders, but this isn't one of them. Ronald O. Christian Fujitsu America Inc. San Jose, Calif. seismo!amdahl!fai!cerebus!ronc ihnp4!pesnta!fai!cerebus!ronc ------------------------------ Date: 25 Dec 86 19:33:35 GMT From: myers@hobiecat.Caltech.Edu (Bob Myers) Subject: Re: What Larry Niven doesn't know about mathematics ronc@cerebus.UUCP (sysadm) writes: >peno@enea.UUCP (Pekka Nousiainen) writes: >>On a related note (this is too silly, my memory must be failing) I >>seem to recall that if you dialed a non-existent number in a >>transfer booth you would simply vanish. Such a system without >>even elementary precautions would solve the population problem in >>no time. > >I think your memory is failing. I can't prove I've read all the >stories that include transfer booths, but I don't remember that. >In fact, one of the stories (_Flash_Crowd_, I think) implies that >the transmitting booth needs to make contact with the receiving >booth. Mass (air, mostly) in the receiving booth gets transmitted >back to the transmitting booth at the same time as the person >arrives in the receiving booth. I think Pekka Nousiainen is referring to _A World Out of Time_. Jaybee Corbell takes a Bussard ramjet trip to the Galactic core and back, and returns 3 million years later (Earth time). He's not real sure what a transfer booth does and how it works, so he worries that it might make him vanish if he punches in a non-existent number. It is pointed out that this would be poor design, and it appears that it was not designed that way. But he wasn't sure, and didn't want to disappear... Bob Myers myers@hobiecat.Caltech.Edu ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 87 22:10:53 GMT From: ihlpa!fish@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bob Fishell) Subject: Re: Amber > I didn't know about the second series. Can someone post info in > it? Sure. Zelazny began a second Amber series featuring Corwin's son -- I've forgotten his name momentarily -- whom we meet in _The Courts of Chaos_. The opener was _Trumps of Doom_. Now, What's this about a second book in Amber 2? I haven't been paying much attention to the bookstores lately, and I'd like to get book 2, if it has indeed been published. And while we're on the subject, the second novel featuring Pol Detson (_Madwand_) left me with a distinct impression that Zelazny wasn't finished with this character. Is there another book published (or planned?). Bob Fishell ihnp4!ihlpa!fish ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 87 9:25:20 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Varley and Pohl (et al) Checked a big batch of SF out of the library for Xmas vacation reading, and thought I'd mention a couple books that stood out and can be recommended: John Varley, BLUE CHAMPAGNE (Dark Harvest, Niles, IL, 1986, 400 pp., ill. by Todd Hamilton, trade edition) This is a collection of Varley short stories and novellae put out by a small press. It includes such classic stories as "Press Enter []", and I recommend as delightful amusements two shorts: "The Manhattan Phone Book (Abridged)" and " The Unprocessed Word". The latter especially for all us computer types. Frederick Pohl & Elizabeth Anne Hull [Mrs. Pohl], TALES FROM THE PLANET EARTH (St. Martin's Press, New York, 1986, 268 pp.) This is billed as "a novel with nineteen authors"; what it really is is a collection of short stories on the common theme of mental possesion of human bodies by disembodied alien intelligences, based loosely on the same premise and situation, as provided by Pohl in his story, "Sitting Around the Pool, Soaking Up the Rays." The one I liked best was Somtow Sucharitkul's "Fiddling for Water Buffaloes" -- hilarious and a great view of Western culture from outside, plus it gives some insights into Thai attitudes and lifestyles that make it must reading for anyone who ever took an anthropology course. I really did not expect this book to be as good as it is; common-theme anthologies are hard to do well. As an aside, I've just started Silverberg's STAR OF GYPSIES, and so far it has had some novel concepts and unusual settings and has captured my interest. It has a bit of the flavor of too much research, though -- it begins to read like it was written with a stack of books about gypsies and the Romany language at the side of the writer. This isn't necessarily bad, if it painlessly teaches the reader a lot of information about something he/she didn't know, but it can be excessive. Anyone wish to post some comments on this? Regards, Will ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Jan 87 0952-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #7 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 6 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 7 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Alderson Drive (2 msgs) & Man and Machines (2 msgs) & BBS Wanted & Esotericon & SFL T-Shirts & Time Travel (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Dec 86 02:22:46 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Alderson Drive throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: >the stuff in Analog, as far as I can see. And Pournelle has >unexplained bolonium and unobtanium, just like Niven does. For >example, the "Alderson Drive" must simply be taken on faith and its >implications for relativity seem rather poorly worked out; some of >the points about the I hate to tell you, but the Alderson Drive isn't Pournelle's fault. It was invented by Dan Alderson, then a student at CalTech, now of JPL. Brandon S. Allbery cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!tdi2!brandon ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 before 10:15am or after 8:00 pm ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 02:58:39 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Alderson Drive... again desj@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (David desJardins) writes: >throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: >>For example, the "Alderson Drive" must simply be taken on faith >>and its implications for relativity seem rather poorly worked out; >Yes indeed. On page 424 of my Pocket paperback (of TMiGE) Renner >(by far the most intelligent character in the book; i.e. moderately >intelligent) says to find the Alderson point by "project[ing] the >path of the Motie ship until it intersects the direct line between >the Mote and Murcheson's Eye." > There are two ludicrous errors here. First, it appears that >Niven and Pournelle think that these Alderson points lie on "direct >lines" between stars. Too bad that there is no such thing. >Second, they Niven may think so. Pournelle makes it clear that the lines are NOT "direct lines" in his own stories. (I can't find a reference at present, but it is definitely mentioned in a short story of his where a CD Senator is trapped near a black hole.) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Dec 86 18:16:33 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: Increased Intelligence tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: > twomey@gort.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes: >>> Human intelligence will double in the next hundred years. >>> Neurointerfacing is not more than thirty years away. > >>But is that an increase in intelligence? Nope. > > (a) Nanotechnology... > > (b) Neural network theory... > > (c) ...repairing CNS damage... > > (d) ...close CNS monitoring... Great stuff! This brought to mind a list of "speculative fiction" books and series to be reread with these ideas at hand. Query: at what point do we cease being human and become either Cyborgs or some other bio- engineered species? Is it beneficial? "Time Enough for Love", Heinlein (After engineering a person, load in memories of a computer.) (A whole bunch of RAH's stories deal with cyborgs and aware computers.) Dream Dancer series, Janet Morris (Full interface with computers and spaceships. I want *this* one, now!) "I, Robot", Asimov (Are robots alive? What's that mean about enhanced humans?) (Should humans be subject to the First Law, as well??) "Dune", Herbert (Outlaw thinking machines!) "Terminal Man", Crichton (What if it goes haywire? Have we done more harm than good?) Now that these enhancements of the human animal are seen as feasible, desirable in some circles, we need the input of the SF writers to make sure we don't blindly accept (or reject) the work of the technologists and scientists. The decisions we face in the coming decades have major implications for the future of the human race, life on Earth, and everything (42). These decisions are not simple and there will be no pat answers, but I applaud the net for discussing it! Thanks for stimulating the brain (and heart), Kris Stephens (408-746-6047) {whatever}!amdahl!krs ------------------------------ Date: Wed 31 Dec 86 02:48:56-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Man-Machine Interfaces. The Future of the Human Mind. There has been a good deal of discussion recently about the (not so distant?) arrival of 'neuro-electric interfaces' and such like, which promise much more direct contact between humans and computers. This is a favorite topic of mine. I would like to present my thoughts on the matter, and ask what other netlanders think. We human beings interface with the world using our many senses for input, and for output we rely almost solely on our muscles (this includes speech) plus a few minor other outputs, such as pheromones. This collection of IO channels (you could say it is our Basic IO System, or BIOS), is optimized as far as is biologically possible for the situation we evolved in; using simple tools, and living in small communities. It provides accurate and precise control over ones own body, and a means of communication with other people through both verbal and non-verbal channels. Our current BIOS is fine when we are in direct contact with the environment and other people. However, when we deal with 'abstract knowledge' the 'baud rate' falls precipitously. Few people can read above 1200 baud, and typing is an order of magnitude below that. Graphs, pictures, etc. can communicate faster, but are only useful for limited types of data and slow to prepare. Controlling machinery is just as bad: we have to interpret data, abstract what it _means_, and then produce outputs which are as far removed from the desired result as the data we had to interpret. This communications bottleneck has been explored in SF as in no other field. We have long read of cyborgs, who are plumbed in with machines to the extent that they ARE the machine, for example in _The_Ship_that_Sang_ (McCaffrey(?)), and _Becalmed_in_Hell_ (Niven) where people ARE spaceships, the motors their legs, radar their eyes, etc. In Delaney's _Nova_, people are equipped with 'sockets' allowing them to control equipment as easily as they control their hands. In more recent work, writers have started to explore a more intimate form of man/machine symbiosis. While the earlier works treated machines as direct replacements of the human body, we now see the computer treated as an extension of the human mind. The earliest example I can think of is _Man-Plus_ (Sturgeon ?), but this sub-genre has flourished in the last five years, starting with _True_Names_ (Vinge). It is the possibilities of making computers an adjunct of the brain that I am trying to get at. I see several uses to which we might put such an interface. These include: 1. Information retrieval. 2. Information storage. 3. Machine control. 4. Auxiliary processing. 1. Information retrieval. How useful this is depends on at what level the interface with the mind operates. Suppose it is a 'voice in your ear' thing: You might consciously think "Computer: What is the state capital of Moldavia?", and then hear a phantom voice say "Kishinev". This is pretty neat, but it is not what I hope for. I want the notion of _Moldavia_ to cross my mind, and for me instantly to _know_ the full history of that nation, as well as a university professor of the topic. You see what I am getting at. On any subject on which knowledge exists, I want to be limited not by what is stored in my skull, but by the knowledge of all people on the net. If many people could share memories and knowledge in this way, to what extent would an 'I' in the sense of 'Peter Trei, separate from all other persons' exist? I don't know. The temptation of such instant, total knowledge would be enormous, but the lack of privacy and individuality would be very off-putting. 2. Information Storage. I forget names, or I often fail to associate them with faces. Ditto for phone numbers and addresses. Computer assist could give me instant recall of such things. 3. Machine control. I would like to have machines obey my will, and for me simply to _know_ how they are responding. 4. Auxiliary processing. This is an interesting possibility. There are several levels at which it might operate. At the low end, I could ask 'What player stole the most bases during the 1986 World Series', and have the answer apparently whispered in my ear, after a machine based expert system derived the answer. At the top level, part of 'my own mind' would operate within the machine realm, and at least some of my thinking could proceed at machine speeds. In this we create an effective 'brain amplifier'. Raw facts are instantly available, and you could for example mentally integrate equations via MACSYMA. Any complex task for which data processing is currently an essential assist (example: running a Shuttle mission), could become subjectively as easy to handle as balancing a checkbook. Once we can achieve even a modest scale of intelligence amplification, we start off on an exponential rise in our capabilities. For as we become more intelligent, we can see more ways to increase our intelligence. I cannot conceive of where this would lead us, but it could be VERY interesting. So, what do you think? Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa PS: I must mention _Marooned_in_Realtime_ the sequel to _The_Peace_War_ by Vernor Vinge, which inspired me to enter this submission. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 86 10:43 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: BBS wanted I'd appreciate any information you people could give me on SF computer bulletin boards. I'm especially interested in finding out about any Star Trek BBs. Thanks in advance. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 87 02:33:26 GMT From: ulowell!mod-psi@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: EsoteriCon Just wanted to see who out there is going to EsoteriCon '87. It's nice to know who (if anyone) out ther shars my interests. For those who don't know: WHAT: EsoteriCon: A convention of, by, and for people of esoteric tastes and pastimes. Will include programs on the tarot, psychic healing, psionics in general, as well as generic SF/Fantasy fandom and gaming. Special GOH Katherine Kurtz. WHEN: January 16,17,18, 1987 WHERE: The Hyatt Regency in New Brunswick, NJ. 2 Albany St. New Brunswick, NJ 08901 (201) 873-1234 Telex: 833092 INFO: EsoteriCon '87 PO Box 22775 Newark, NJ 07101 I'll be there, under, behind, or thru a ConUndrum button. Hope to see you! Erich Rickheit 85 Gershom Ave, #2 Lowell, MA 01854 UUCP: ...!wanginst!ulowell!rickheit ------------------------------ From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM Date: Sunday, 4 Jan 1987 17:00-EST Subject: T-shirt closeout All must go, enourmous inventory clearance! Or, to put it more clearly: I've got a fair number of SF-Lovers T-shirts left, mainly in XL, M, and S. I'd like to get rid of them. Presumably, some of you would like to have them. So, here's what you do. Send me money (a check for $6.50 for each shirt), and a shipping address to: Pipe Dream Associates 329 Ward Street Newton, MA 02159 Be sure to send seperate checks for each shirt, if I am out of that size (or run out halfway through your order), I will return the unused checks to you with your shirts (or alone if I can't fill it at all). For example, if you want 2 small and an XL, you should send me 3 checks for $6.50. The reason I'm doing it this way is two-fold. First, if I had to deposit all the checks and issue refund checks for partial amounts, I'd get stuck with extra deposit fees. Secondly, if I write checks for refund amounts, I get stuck with a check-writing fee. It is my sincere belief that I have sent everyone who ordered a T-shirt their shirt. If you have not received your shirt(s), PLEASE CONTACT ME IMMEDIATELY. I will hold off on processing/mailing shirts until February 1st to make sure that I have filled all outstanding orders. Remember, this will be first come, first served, so get your order in fast. James UUCP: {linus, ima, decvax}!cca!ringwld!jmturn ARPA: ringwld!jmturn@CCA.CCA.COM P.S. Does anyone know why Mike Parker; 3460 Ste-Famille; Montreal, Quebec was unable to be mailed his shirts? I included proper postage and duty, but they bounced with an undecypherable scrawl written on them. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 86 09:04:51 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald(Sarek) Subject: Time Travel/conservation of energy There was one story that brought this problem up...it might have been Glory Road, by Heinlein. The problem was when Star, Oscar, and Rufo popping in and out of the universes. Oscar complained that this violated the conservation of energy, but Star explained that it didn't, looking at the multiverse (not Heinlein's phrase) as a whole. Seems to me that the same thing holds when you look at time as a whole. st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 86 12:49 EST From: JimC@a Subject: time travel With the new Star Trek movie out, thoughts of time travel are back on the net--with the usual preposterous assertions and claims. To get around the problem of causality, Keith F. Lynch advances "two main consistent ways" to allow time travel--branching universes and a "stack-type" system, in which a jump back in time "causes the previous future of that time to be wiped out and start over." Really now. Once again we have people confusing man's selfmade abstraction, "time," with the vast probabilistic matrix of subatomic changes that gives reality its seemingly "forward" temporal movement. Time has nothing to do with numbers on a clock face; it's the generalization of the changes all the minutest bits of matter undergo as they interact with each other. There are no clocks in nature--just local cyclical processes that man has used to measure duration. Whether the universe itself is cyclic no one, of course, knows. Time travel, no matter the model, is akin to religion: it's possible if you believe in a God who can do anything. Two of the corollaries of this belief: 1. All events, past, present and future, are fixed and determined. This conflicts with what we know of probability, causality, and evolution. Somehow everything that has ever happened must be recorded so that the past will still exist for someone to visit. The same is true for the future: it has to already exist, a kind of past not yet arrived at. 2. In jumping from one time to the other, the time traveler must totally leave reality and then reenter it. This is essentially a belief in the "supernatural"--a giant leap back to Medievalism, in which earthly reality was seen as a subset of divine reality. In the scientific view, the universe is truly "uni"; it's all that there is and there's no going outside it because there is no outside. There are many more. The point is that like all fairytale notions, time travel breaks down into a series of absurdities when you look at it closely enough. Thus it's valid to propose a third "explanation" for time travel in addition to the parallel universe and stack-type models: one can easily imagine a being, called, let's say, Chronos, whose job in the cosmos is managing time. Like a locomotive engineer, he makes the whole damn thing go. Say the right thing to him (there's the trick, not to mention figuring out how), and he will transport you anywhere in time, taking care to tie up all the loose paradoxes. Parallel universes or Chronos: prove to me which one is false. Jim Cortese ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jan 87 0807-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #8 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 7 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 8 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Anderson & Bradley & Brust & Ellison & Star Trek (2 msgs) & Some Recommendations & Spoiled Books & A Story Request Answered ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jan 87 09:27 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: New book by Douglas Adams According to the latest issue of Publishers Weekly, Simon & Schuster will publish a new Douglas Adams book, _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_, in May, with a 100,000 copy first printing. (With a first printing that large, S&S clearly sees this as a blockbuster.) More details if and when they appear in the magazine. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 87 18:01:43 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Anderson's "Sam Hall" Doesn't really qualify as a hacker/penetration story, since Hall is a personality faked up by a central records worker who has legitimate access to the central computer; he mucks around with assorted records (e.g., inserting the code for the thumbprint synthesized for Hall's record in place of the code reported by the investigator of a possibly-political robbery) but does (as I recall) all of this manually (e.g., no virus or cookie-monster programs, not even something to warn him if he's being electronically watched while he's at work). ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 87 05:30:48 GMT From: osu-eddie!jac@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim Clausing) Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) writes: >O.K., here's the new improved Darkover list and Marion >Zimmer Bradley bibliography... >Sharra's Exile, 1981 Sharra's Exile/Sword of Aldones% >Sword of Chaos*, 1982 World Wreckers >Hawkmistress!, 1982 Return to Darkover >Thendara House, 1983 >City of Sorcery, 1984 >Return to Darkover, (scheduled release 1986) I hadn't heard about one titled Return to Darkover and I am pretty sure it didn't make it out in 1986. You did, however, leave out two more anthologies with the Friends of Darkover. Free Amazons of Darkover, 1985 The Other Side of the Mirror, due out in Feb. 1987 The blurb for The Other Side of the Mirror (in B. Dalton's Jan.-Feb. ENVOS) it "includes a new timeline and chronology created by Marion Zimmer Bradley, as well as a brief history of the Ages of Darkover, which will place and succeeding volumes at their proper point in time." My personal favorites are Heritage of Hastur, Sharra's Exile, Spell Sword, and Forbidden Tower (not necessarily in that order). Jim Clausing CIS Department Ohio State University Columbus, OH 43210 jac@ohio-state.CSNET jac@ohio-state.ARPA jac@osu-eddie.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 87 09:06:38 PST From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Teckla Cc: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu > The book was something of a disappointment. It reads a lot > more like "Brokedown Castle", than it does like "Jhereg". I get > the feeling that the former is what Brust wants to be writing, > while the latter is what he excells at, which must be rough. I normally don't kibitz other people's reviews, but I think Dani missed it slightly on Teckla. I finished it the other day, and I believe it is the best work that Steve has done to date -- although Brokedown Palace comes close. Be aware that this book has a significantly different tone than previous Brust books. It is rather somber and serious, and everything is painted with gray washes instead of the black's and white's of previous novels. Nothing is as clear as it used to be. Teckla is a very moving and an intensely personal book -- earlier books tended to be more entertainment works. The characters are VERY real and go through very realistic pains and changes, unlike the first two books where Vlad basically skated through life without it really affecting him much. As I've already written in the next OtherRealms, I consider Teckla a major book for Brust. It is going to disappoint many people, for the same reason that Woody Allen disappointed many fans who only like the "early, funny" movies (to paraphrase Stardust Memories). This book is the book that proves the promise and shows Brust to be a major writer in Fantasy. Teckla is not Steve Brust writing the same old thing, Teckla is Steve Brust writing the new, improved Brust, stretching his wings and showing that he's as good as (or better than) anyone in the industry. chuq ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 87 02:13:36 GMT From: g-willia@gumby.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison (was Re: John Varley's BLUE CHAMPAGNE) krs@amdahl.UUCP (Kris Stephens) writes: > I've gotta agree with you there, Don. I find Ellison's fiction > drab and dreary. I *do* think, however, that he's one of the best > anthologists in the business. For all his bitching and moaning > during the ``Dangerous Visions'' series, he managed to collect a > fascinating set of memorable stories and I actually enjoyed his > many forwards. Since that was my first exposure to his work, I > thought I'd try his fiction and that was a major disappointment. > The film of ``A Boy and his Dog'' was good, too. Even though Harlan doesn't need any defense, and you are entitled to an (informed) opinion, I just thought I'd point out Harlan's umpteen Hugos and Nebulas (he's either won more Hugos than anybody else, or is tied with Sturgeon), his Edgar, his awards for television scripts, and the recent award for his column "An Edge in My Voice." Of course, this doesn't mean some people might find his fiction not to their liking, and even dreary, since he doesn't write cute bunny rabbit stories. I just thought I'd point out his awards. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 86 11:09:58 EST From: Kathy Godfrey Subject: Female Authors and Star Trek I received this in response to the NY Times article on ST fanzines: From: "Keith F. Lynch" Have you read any of Ayn Rand's books? She explores the relationships between individuals very closely. She wrote: _We The Living_ in 1936. A woman in the Soviet Union has a love affair with a commissar in an attempt to gain medical care for he true love. _Anthem_ in 1937. A man in a collectivised future society seeks his own identity. He is hampered by the lack of all personal pronouns. _The Fountainhead_ in 1943. A young architect in the 1920s and 1930s struggles for the integrity of his work against every form of social oppression. _Atlas Shrugged_ in 1957. This story follows the lives of several men and women as they gradually realize why everything is going to pieces, and what they can do to stop it. It is set in the "present" though it often feels more like the 1930s than the 1950s. She did not regard herself as a science fiction writer, though some science fictional elements do appear in most of her stories. She considered herself a romantic writer, not in the sense of the mass produced romances one finds in the supermarket, but in the nineteenth century sense of the word. She explains this at great length in her nonfiction book _The Romantic Manifesto_. A major philosophical/political movement was founded, based on _Atlas Shrugged_. In support of this movement, called Objectivism, she wrote several nonfiction books including _For the New Intellectual_, _Philosophy: Who Need It_, _Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal_, and _The Virtue of Selfishness_. There is also a videotape lecture series on Objectivism taped shortly before her death in 1982. With regard to Star Trek, I have never understood what anyone sees in it. There are so many much more believable and consistent series, such as Heinlein's future history, Asimov's recently combined Robot series and Empire/Foundation series, Niven's known space, Pournelle's CoDominium, L. Neil Smith's _Probability Broach_ series, Varley's series in which Earth was long since taken over by extraterrestrial whales or whale sympathizers (which is probably where ST IV stole its ideas), and Vernor Vinge's bobble books. Not to mention the far greater number of excellent stories which are NOT part of a series. The only thing different about Star Trek (other than it being blatantly inconsistent, redundant, unscientific, and childish) is that it is on TV. I don't see what is so great about that. And if that is the standard of value, why no similar hullabaloo over Lost in Space? How can I get anything but comic relief from a series in which humans can interbreed with aliens (which is about a trillion times less likely than humans interbreeding with oak trees, which are related to us after all) or in which almost all aliens look like white Americans and speak perfect English with a California accent (except for the aliens which consist of "pure energy" (as if matter were something else) and look like glittering sparks, and which every time they see one of these commonplace critters they profoundly proclaim they have "never seen anything like it before"), or in which several earthlike planets are so earthlike that they share Earth's continents and even most of Earth's history, or in which there is a wall at the edge of the galaxy which causes psychic powers, or in which Vulcan has seven moons in one episode and none in another, or in which Spock proclaims excitedly that they are "caught in a space-time continuum" as if they were ever anywhere else, or in which mankind has faster-than-light travel for decades before realizing that this allows time travel - something that educated people have known since Einstein proved it in 1905, or in which Earth, Vulcan, Romulus, and the Klingons are all nearly evenly matched, despite all having had completely independent multi-million year histories, or in which the destruction of a few fragile tiny crystals can cripple the starship, but they never bother to carry spares, or in which (we are lead to believe) Truth, Justice, and the American way have long since prevailed, but the only examples of private enterprise we get to see are the notorious Harry Mudd, and various traders on primitive planets. The silliest part of the whole charade was Spock. We are told that he is totally logical and has no emotions. To begin with, that doesn't make any sense. Emotions ARE logical. And if he had no emotions he wouldn't bother to get out of the bed in the morning, much less work so hard to save the Enterprise, showing considerable loyalty to Kirk. And in any case, he is shown in nearly every episode to be the most emotional individual on the ship. Perhaps it would have been reasonable had they done it once, but they showed him "crack" in episode after episode, until he was an object more of pity than anything else. And in one episode Kirk warned that he gets very upset (!) and depressed (!) when he gets emotions. Sound to me like he needs a shrink. Star Trek has done more to make logic look ridiculous since Kant. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 86 08:29 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Spock Among the Women Thanks for typing all that in, Kathy! I thought it was a fascinating article, and wanted to share it with SFLovers, but I wasn't about to do all that typing. I think Bacon-Smith got her figures through Judy Segal. I know they sound right to me, depending on how you count them. Look at the Star Trek Welcommittee's Directory or publications listing media fanzines, such as Datazine or Universal Translator. Awful LOT of stuff, and that doesn't include all of the OOP stuff. I mean, we're talking 20 YEARS of fanzines! If anything, I think her figures were conservative. I do see Ms. Bacon-Smith's point about women expecting less reward for their work being an influence, although I don't think it's a main point of the gender differences in the fandoms. SF fanzines are of a completely different kind than ST fanzines. Men typically write a few page articles or LoCs for SF fanzines. Women typically write hundreds of pages of stories for ST fanzines. How many men do you know who would write a novel, expecting to be "paid" only a few contributor's copy? But female ST fans do it all the time. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 06 January 87 13:03 EST From: O9YJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: books I just thought I'd throw in some suggestions for the possible SF discussion. I just finished reading James P. Hogan's trilogy : Inherit the Stars, The Gentle Giants of Ganymede, and The Giants' Star. These books are the most scientifically accurate SF I've ever read. Hogan's range of knowledge is impressive, and his stories are pure extrapolation upon scientific fact. I can only assume his biological theories are as well-researched as his other science,for I'm not a biology expert, but on the whole his books are refreshingly scientific. Two other recommendations: Silverberg's Tom O'Bedlam is a very moving story, with beautifully crafted characters and fine social insight. I especially enjoyed the detailed growth of not one, but several characters, whose closeness to Tom spurred their emergence from a stagnant existence in a culture not too far removed from our own. A very good story. The other: Footfall, by Niven and Pournelle, represents another successful collaboration by the two writers. The characters are very intricately detailed, as is the plot, and the aliens are wonderfully complex. I really enjoyed this book. So much for my two cents. Any have suggestions in return? ------------------------------ Date: Sun 4 Jan 87 21:16:02-EST From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: spoiled books >>I seem to recall a gaff of similar magnitude in The Integral >>Trees. > When people leave the tree, they soon run into a different bunch > of people. .... Either way it's absurd, and it spoiled the book > for me. Um. Spelling it "gaff" is a gaffe, surely. As for author's gaffes ... gee, guys, I think you're complaining about something called "plot". That's a technical, literary device. It is often connected to somewhat low-probablility fictional events, like, the hero existing at all, for instance. Having the hero meet other people is also one of the alternatives to writing a very boring book. Of course, fiction is in the business of suspending disbelief, so I suppose it's bad when books spoil before your very nose. But hey, what about all those old books ? Stuff that predicted WW3 in, say, 1970 ? Do we junk them all ? Personally, I find that old SF is a treasure, and I try to enjoy the mis-predictions. (Spaceship navigators with slide rules or decimal-to-binary conversion tables ! ) Of course, flat-out mistakes were common - more so then than now. But I can still enjoy classic A.E. Van Vogt, for all that Damon Knight correctly labelled him a "pygmy", more than three decades ago. Don Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jan 87 13:33:11 -0500 From: hmiller@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: Story Request Kris Stephens (krs@rutgers.rutgers.edu) writes: >While not strictly a sentient computer story (but while we're on >the subject of asking 'em questions), there was a story about a the >first super computer where someone asks "What's the source of >humor?" and the answer was "Extra- Terrestrial." I won't describe >the final results of this Q'n'A, but if someone could post the >author and title from this very basic outline, I *do* recommend the >story. Might have been William Tenn ('twas weird enough). I believe the story you are referring to is "Jokester" and it's by Asimov. I forget the collection it's in, but I definitely remember that the computer in question was Multivac. Herb Miller ARPA: hmiller@athena.mit.edu UUCP: seismo!hmiller@athena.mit.edu BIT: 208543614@VUVAXCOM.BITNET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jan 87 0826-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #9 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 7 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 9 Today's Topics: Books - Zelazny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Jan 87 06:31:25 GMT From: knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kevin Knight) Subject: Amber chronology Well, folks, here is a new chronology for Zelazny's Amber books. I posted a shorter version of this last year. The new one includes TOD and BOA, and it also includes a timeline. All dates are "Amber time", not "Corwin time"; I adjusted for time differentials wherever possible. Time zero is Corwin's "accident" (sentimental reasons). Many of the dates come by way of inference and calculation, and many (e.g. 3000y) are approximate. If you think I missed something, or got some dates really wrong, I'd like to hear from you. THE BEGINNING Oberon is born Dworkin flees from Chaos to a small sudden island Dworkin meditates upon the abyss The Jewel is revealed to Dworkin by the Unicorn Dworkin creates Amber out of Chaos Oberon marries Cymnea -3000y Benedict, Osric, Finndo, born to Cymnea Eric born to Faiella Oberon dissolves marriage to Cymnea Oberon marries Faiella Osric and Finndo die, purportedly in the service of Amber Corwin, Caine born to Faiella Faiella dies giving birth to Deirdre Sand, Delwin born to Rilga Oberon marries Clarissa Fiona, Bleys born to Clarissa Llewella born to ? Oberon divorces Clarissa Oberon recognizes Llewella as legitimate Brand born to Clarissa Flora born to ? Julian, Gerard born to Rilga Random born to ? -187y Sand and Delwin depart from Amber Dworkin fashions the family Trumps THE OLD DAYS Deela the Desacratrix burns unicorn shrines at Begma Oberon defeats Deela, takes her prisoner, rapes her Deela escapes Dalt born to Deela Deela begins to raid once more around Begma Oberon sends Bleys to defeat and kill Deela Corwin and Bleys strand Random on an island Random puts a spike in Corwin's boot Brand, Bleys, and Fiona study with Dworkin Corwin rules over Avalon Random goes to Rebma and elopes with Morganthe Martin born to Random and Morganthe Random banished from Rebma Martin walks Pattern, leaves Rebma Corwin gulls Caine Corwin beats Julian at his favorite game -160y Moonriders out of Ghenesh attack Amber Benedict holds the pass above Arden against the Moonriders Benedict leaves Amber for Avalon Dark things out of Shadow attack at Jones Falls Brand has argument with Corwin Corwin and Eric fight while hunting in the Forest of Arden BEFORE THE CHRONICLES -156y Corwin exiled by Eric after their fight Brand and Gerard search for Corwin in many shadows Tomb built for Corwin, assumed dead -74y Flora goes to Shadow Earth -72y Flora first spots Corwin on Shadow Earth Dworkin tells Oberon how to destroy the Pattern Oberon imprisons Dworkin Brand, Bleys, and Fiona form cabal Oberon gets mad with Eric and glorifies Corwin over dinner Brand allies with powers from Chaos and learns how to destroy Pattern -65y Brand asks Llewella and Random about Martin -22y Jasra becomes consort to King Menillan of Kashfa King Menillan dies Jasra organizes coup headed by Jasrick and Kasman Jasra and Brand meet over magical operation, secretly marry Brand leaves Kashfa Jasra bears Rinaldo Jasra has Jasrick killed Jasra leaves for the Keep of the Four Worlds Rinaldo is left in charge of Kashfa Jasra stays in the Keep, trying to win over Sharu Garrul Rinaldo takes Dalt to walk the Pattern at Tir-na Nog'th Rinaldo worries about Jasra, attack the Keep with Dalt Jasra beats Sharu in a sorcerous duel, pays off Dalt Kasman takes over in Kashfa Kasman attacks the Keep in order to eliminate Jasra and Rinaldo Rinaldo leaves the Keep Dalt attacks the Keep on his own Dalt attacks Amber, fails, is wounded by Benedict -2y Random goes to Texorami Brand paints a trump of Martin -1y9m Brand finds Martin and stabs him over the Pattern Brand, Bleys, and Fiona involve Benedict with the hellmaids Oberon is lured away by Brand, Bleys, and Fiona -1y6m Oberon goes into hiding -3m Bleys and Eric argue over the throne; Bleys leaves Amber Eric seizes control of Amber Bleys builds military strike force Brand tries to win Caine over to the cabal, fails Eric-Caine-Julian alliance formed Brand sees Corwin in Tir-na Nog'th Brand sees Corwin is Eric's mind Brand under surveillance by Eric in Amber Bleys and Fiona split with Brand Corwin begins to regain memory -2d Brand escapes Amber, puts Corwin in Porter Sanitarium Brand recaptured by Eric 0 Brand escapes again, shoots Corwin's tires out Eric puts Corwin in Greenwood, under Flora's care Brand captured by Bleys and Fiona, put in Tower Brand calls Random for help Random attempts to save Brand, fails Julian contacts Random about the throne Random loses his Trumps NINE PRINCES IN AMBER +6d Corwin escapes Greenwood, goes to Flora's house Corwin finds Flora's Trumps Flora attempts to return to Amber, fails Random arrives at Flora's house +7d Corwin and Random set out for Amber Corwin and Random take Julian prisoner in Arden, release him Corwin and Random save Deirdre, go to Rebma Random sentenced to marry Vialle +9d Corwin walks Pattern in Rebma Corwin transports himself to Amber Corwin and Eric fight Corwin goes to Bleys, encamped at Avernus Bleys and Corwin make alliance Corwin makes deals with Gerard and Caine to open the seas Corwin contacts Oberon and Brand by Trump, both weakly Corwin and Bleys build force, attack Amber, fail +96d Bleys falls off stairs, Corwin taken +100d Eric crowned Corwin blinded, imprisoned, fed by Lord Rein +4y10d Corwin escapes to Cabra with Dworkin's help Corwin stays with Jopin at the Lighthouse +4y100d Corwin resists Trump contact, decides to leave Cabra THE GUNS OF AVALON Corwin goes to Lorraine Corwin meets Lance, travels to the Keep of Ganelon Corwin meets Lorraine, the girl Someone attempts to contact Corwin once more Corwin and Ganelon defeat the Black Circle Corwin and Ganelon travel to Avalon Benedict defeats the Hellmaids +5y90d Corwin and Ganelon meet Benedict +5y93d Corwin meets Dara Ganelon kills Benedict's servants +5y94d Corwin gets diamonds and gunpowder +5y95m Corwin and Ganelon leave Avalon, encounter Black Road Corwin saves girl from Black Road Benedict chases Corwin, fights, loses Corwin calls Gerard to help Benedict +5y129d Corwin gets guns on Earth Eric begins major battle with Black Road Corwin visits old house, reads Eric's message Ganelon and Corwin go to Riik to collect troops +5y150d Ganelon and Corwin march on Amber Dara arrives in Amber +5y156d Corwin wins battle at Amber Eric dies in battle Corwin and Random go to the Pattern Dara completes the Pattern Dara claims "Amber will be destroyed" Merlin born in the Courts of Chaos SIGN OF THE UNICORN +5y162d Caine is found dead Random tells his story (of the Tower) to Corwin Corwin attunes to the Jewel Flora tells her story (of Eric, etc.) to Corwin Corwin visits his tomb with Ganelon +5y163d Corwin and Gerard fight, bury Caine, at the Grove of the Unicorn Corwin and Gerard see the Unicorn Brand is returned by united family effort Fiona stabs Brand Gerard takes care of Brand Caine stabs Corwin Corwin returns to Shadow Earth, stashes Jewel +5y164d Random brings Corwin back to Amber Corwin visits Brand Brand recovers well Corwin goes to Tir-na Nog'th, gets mechanical arm from Benedict +5y165d Corwin, Ganelon, and Random follow Unicorn to Primal Pattern THE HAND OF OBERON Martin's Trump found in the Pattern Benedict and Random seek Martin Corwin talks to Vialle +5y167d Corwin goes to Dworkin's quarters Corwin trumps to the Courts of Chaos, kills rider, meets Merlin +5y175d Corwin returns via Gerard's Trump Corwin talks to Brand again Caine attacks Brand Ganelon tells Benedict about Dara Corwin and Benedict form alliance Gerard fights Corwin again, Ganelon intercedes Corwin talks to Julian Corwin returns to Earth to retrieve the Jewel, talks to Bill Roth Brand gets the Jewel first Corwin orders all the Patterns guarded Corwin talks to Fiona Brand show up at the Pattern in Amber, met by Gerard, flees Brand starts walking the Primal Pattern Corwin intercepts him, forces Brand to transport out Random finds Martin, who tells his story Brand goes to Tir-na Nog'th to walk Pattern there Benedict intercepts him, regains the Jewel, using mechanical arm Ganelon reveals himself as Oberon THE COURTS OF CHAOS +5y178d Oberon takes command, gives separate orders to his children Brand draws Trumps for Sand and Delwin, who refuse to help him Replay of Tir-na Nog'th scene in Amber, Benedict loses arm Corwin talks to Dara, learns of Merlin Corwin tries to repair the Pattern himself and is stopped by Oberon Corwin talks to Oberon Oberon orders everyone to attack Chaos Corwin begins his hellride Oberon starts walking the Pattern to repair it Oberon sends the Jewel to Corwin via the bird Brand takes Rinaldo to walk the Pattern Brand's first contact with Corwin ("Dad failed") Corwin hides in cave, meets man with scripture Corwin almost lured by dwarves and by Lady Brand's second contact with Corwin (appears with crossbow, loses eye) Corwin meets Ygg, Hugi, and the Jackal Corwin inscribes a new Pattern Brand's third contact with Corwin (grabs the Jewel) Corwin and Brand both transport to Chaos Corwin kills Duke Borel of Chaos Battle of Chaos Oberon's message in the sky Brand killed by Caine's crossbow, drags Deirdre over the cliff Family reunites after the battle Oberon's funeral Merlin appears Random made King of Amber by the Unicorn Corwin attunes Random to the Jewel Random diverts the Wave of Chaos +5y6m Corwin tells his story to Merlin Rinaldo hears of his father Brand's death, on April 30 TRUMPS OF DOOM +5y6m Merlin goes to Shadow Earth, studies computer science in college Bill Roth works up Patternfall Treaty between Random and Swayvil Merlin meets Luke (Rinaldo) in college Merlin takes his girlfriend Julia through Shadow Rinaldo attempts to kill Merlin on April 30 Rinaldo tries again the next year, and the next Rinaldo breaks off the attempts on Merlin's life; Jasra continues them +9y6m Merlin and Rinaldo graduate and join Grand Design Merlin begins building Ghostwheel Merlin breaks up with Julia Jasra attempts to kill Merlin, making a total of seven tries +13y6m Merlin quits Grand Design, talks to Rinaldo about it Julia is killed by a dog-beast from Shadow Merlin goes to Julia's place, finds her dead, kills the beast Merlin finds the Trumps of Doom Merlin visits Rick Kinsky, Julia's old boyfriend Merlin visits Victor Melman, kills him in self-defense Jasra arrives at Melman's place, bites Merlin Merlin trumps off to the Sphinx, escapes Dalt gets ammo from Melman's building, burns it Merlin returns to Melman's building, finds a shotgun shell Caine murdered by Rinaldo, Bleys wounded by Rinaldo Merlin goes to Rinaldo's hotel, gets ring Merlin checks into Hilton in Santa Fe Merlin meets up with Rinaldo Dan Martinez talks to Merlin Merlin removes ring Rinaldo and Merlin drive into the country Rinaldo kills Martinez Merlin goes to Bill Roth Merlin meets George Hansen Merlin and Bill Roth go to Amber Random discovers that the shotgun shells explode in Amber Merlin talks to Fiona and goes back to a bar on Earth Merlin meets Meg Devlin and goes to her apartment Caine's funeral Rinaldo attempts to bomb the Amberites, fails Merlin tells Random about Ghostwheel, is told to shut it down Merlin tries to reach Ghostwheel, but is told to go back Merlin meets a lady in Shadow Merlin meets Rinaldo in Shadow Rinaldo imprisons Merlin in a crystal cave BLOOD OF AMBER Merlin is locked in the crystal cave for over a month Merlin rigs a booby trap and escapes Merlin meets up with Jasra, immobilizes her, trumps to Flora on Earth Rinaldo grabs Jasra away from Merlin Flora tells Merlin about Jasra, Kashfa Merlin tells Flora about Rinaldo Merlin tries to call Meg Devlin and George Hansen, fails Mask contacts Merlin Flora and Merlin go to Julia's place Merlin goes through trap door at Julia's place Merlin runs into Scrof, defeats him Rinaldo hires Dalt to attack the Keep with him Merlin goes to the Keep of the Four Worlds, meets the hermit Dave Dave tells Merlin about Sharu, Dalt, Kashfa, Jasra, Rinaldo, Brand Merlin tries to move closer to the Keep, is stopped by Mask Merlin trumps to Amber Dalt intentionally wounds Rinaldo in battle at the Keep Random tells Merlin about Dalt and Deela Merlin goes to Bloody Bill's for seafood Merlin meets Old John, the King's emissary Merlin leaves, gets attacked, saved by Vinta Bayle Merlin and Vinta go to Arbor House, where they trade information Ghostwheel contacts Merlin Rinaldo calls Merlin, trumps in Merlin calls Dalt, Dalt shows aggression, Merlin hangs up Rinaldo asks Merlin to help rescue Jasra Merlin takes Rinaldo to crystal cave, negotiates deal Merlin returns to Arbor House briefly Merlin runs into a lop-eared wolf, which tries to kill him and escapes Merlin returns to Amber, talks to Bill Roth Merlin goes to Corwin's tomb Merlin goes to the Pattern, walks it, trumps to the Keep Merlin finds Jasra frozen Mask appears Merlin trumps back to Amber with Jasra Rinaldo contacts Merlin Merlin goes into the main hall Benedict and Random enter the mail hall Rinaldo tells all about Dalt's plan to attack Amber with riflemen Merlin walks into a huge trump of Rinaldo, disappears into Wonderland ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jan 87 0830-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #10 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 12 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 10 Today's Topics: Books - Blish & Bradley & Ellison & Friedberg & Hogan & Niven & Varley & Williams & Wolfe & Torcs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Jan 87 16:21:22 GMT From: ubc-cs!manis@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Vincent Manis) Subject: Re: BLACK EASTER in-jokes boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: >I'm more inclined to believe that Selahny is Samuel Delaney, who >also tends to write parables. As others have pointed out, Atheling >is William Atheling, who is Blish himself under a pseudonym. Not quite. Blish wrote sf reviews in the 1950's and 1960's under the name of "William Atheling, Jr.". They were very good reviews, although it was most unfair of Blish to expect writers to be grammatical, to have a consistent point of view, and, in general, to do a serious job of plotting, characterisation, and writing. Atheling's "father" was Ezra Pound, who wrote criticism under the name "William Atheling" a few decades earlier. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 87 15:31 EST From: "J. Spencer Love" Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request I don't recommend the more recent MZB Darkover stories, by which I mean "Thendara House" and anything written thereafter. Actually, I haven't read anything by MZB after Thendara House, because it made me so angry. I have been told that she has continued this trend, but I no longer care to experience it directly. Thendara House is the sequel to The Shattered Chain. The earlier book was quite good, among the best that MZB has written. For the sequel, she got out her best industrial strength stamping equipment and reduced a main character (Peter?) from 2.5 dimensions to rather close to 1 dimension. I was not impressed by the reduction of a moderately well developed character to a straw man. The new character acted in ways in which the original character would never have acted, in order to support the author's shift from writing fiction to writing polemics disguised as fiction. In historians, we call this revisionism. It is an author's privilege to revise a universe but usually (e.g., Van Vogt, Arthur C. Clarke, or Orson Scott Card) this results in a better story. Not in this case. I read all the then-existing Darkover books at once around 1982 at MITSFS because I was meeting so many people at conventions who were Darkover fans. Although the quality was variable, it was good enough that I could get through even the worst, and there were some really good moments. There is better and worse available in the F&SF section of any good bookstore. There is a particular genre of violence pornography of the sort which I imagine would appeal to a "Soldier of Fortune" subscriber, with titles like "Phoenix Force", "Mack Bolan: The Executioner", and so on. Another analogous phenomenon is the "Gor" series, particularly after its 5th book. I think that MZB has identified militant feminism as such a specialized market and that she is now writing for that market. The only objection I have is that I came to the sequel expecting more from her. A writer has to eat, but she is clearly capable of appealing to a larger audience. I wish she had started with new characters and story line when she went into politics. I see a line between enlightened feminism, which doesn't require female genitals to espouse, and the sort of militancy that requires such pornography as fuel, to remind the reader who the enemy is. I suppose that I will now be deluged with counter-flames from people who don't see such a line or who object to my abuse of the word "pornography". ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 87 19:34:49 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison (was Re: John Varley's BLUE CHAMPAGNE) g-willia@gumby.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes: >Even though Harlan doesn't need any defense, and you are entitled >to an (informed) opinion, I just thought I'd point out Harlan's >umpteen Hugos and Nebulas (he's either won more Hugos than anybody >else, or is tied with Sturgeon), his Edgar, his awards for >television scripts, and the recent award for his column "An Edge in >My Voice." Of course, this doesn't mean some people might find his >fiction not to their liking, and even dreary, since he doesn't >write cute bunny rabbit stories. I just thought I'd point out his >awards. Yup. We're all entitled to opinions about a writer's talents and skills. Ellison is without doubt a highly skilled writer (*He* says so, too); what turns me off is how he uses the language, not his stories per se. I enjoy dark, pithy stories (and fluff, too, at times - BTW, was that "cute bunny stories" comment meant as an insult of my literary constitution? Just wondering.), but I find Ellison's style gets in my way when reading his stories. I often have the same reaction to Bradbury ("Something Wicked This Way Comes" is a marvelous exception). That doen't mean he's a bad writer - it doesn't mean he's not a great writer - it simply means I generally don't like his style. Kris Stephens 408-746-6047 {whatever}!amdahl!krs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 87 15:02 EST From: Allan C. Wechsler Subject: Bibliographic request One of my favorite novels is Gertrude Friedberg's "The Revolving Boy". Friedberg was apparently a one-novel author, however: I was never able to find anything else by her, /except/, a short story called "The Wayward Cravat". I read that once, thought it was one of the most hysterically funny things I'd ever read, and then lost it. I've never been able to find it again. I don't even remember if it was SF -- I suspect it wasn't. Please, can anyone give me a reference for "The Wayward Cravat"? Also, does anyone know of anything else Ms. Friedberg has written? ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 87 20:33:45 GMT From: axiom!gts@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Guy Schafer) Subject: A question about _Giant's Star_ by James P. Hogan. I highly recommend the Giant's Trilogy by James P. Hogan: _Inherit the Stars_, _The Gentle Giants of Ganymede_, and _Giant's Star_. Very entertaining and full of suspense with lots of Hogan's technically-explained, amazing ideas. I do have one question about the plot near the end of the final book _Giant's Star_: (SPOILER) When VISAR took over some of JEVEX, why didn't they just stick to the story that the Earth had remained militarized and VISAR fabricated the disarmament. Then JEVEX could have looked at the (actually faked) reports of the impending strike force as if VISAR had let it see the "truth." By changing the information inside JEVEX so that it reported conflicting information, the Jevlenese were bound to discover that VISAR had penetrated it at which time it would seem obvious that the strike force was a sham. Even after the Jevlenese figure out that VISAR got into JEVEX, they don't seem to figure out that the strike force was faked WHEN THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE MOST OBVIOUS CONCLUSION! Seems that the broadcast from the Jevlenese base in Conneticut should have been made and VISAR shouldn't have messed with the internal memories of JEVEX. Why did VISAR have to change JEVEX's memory of past events? {decvax!linus|seismo!harvard}!axiom!gts ------------------------------ Date: 12-jan-87 00:00:00 EDT From: Subject: NIven's failure to grasp large numbers [WARNING: Mild spoliers for Ringworld Engineers] Forgive me if this has been mentioned before. I no longer receive the digest directly and may have missed part of the discussion. I agree Niven *does* have a problem with large numbers. In Ringworld Engineers, Chmeee makes a comment about Kzin never approaching the Earth's population of "two times eight to the tenth". It's repeatedly mentioned in the Ringworld books that Earth's population at the time is about 18 billion, which is a bit over 2 times eight to the ELEVENTH. Eight to the tenth is about one billion (as everyone who works with octal computers knows ;-) ). ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 87 21:04:40 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: John Varley's BLUE CHAMPAGNE don@clunk.UUCP (Don McKillican) writes: >Stuart Cracraft writes: >> BLUE CHAMPAGNE is a strong collection, a worthwhile collection, >> but not a great collection. Varley seems to have overstepped his >> usual bounds into sentimentality. While he writes truly great >> erotic fiction, I find his increasing and over- powering >> sentimentality to become somewhat oppressive after awhile. >I was also disappointed in Blue Champage, but for very different >reasons: what bothered me about the collection was the increasingly >tired, cynical, and even bitter tone of so many of the stories. On the other hand, I felt that Blue Champagne was at least as good as Persistence of Vision, and that the title story is the single best piece of Varley I've ever read. >Even the much-praised "Press Enter" reminds me more of Harlan >Ellison than of the Varley The much-praised "Press Enter []" is also much over-rated (a great one-time read, but when you look at it again you realize that it simply doesn't age, it falls apart with familiarity. Also, basically a techno-Fantasy and not really SF. And it is really Varley writing Cyberpunk and not trying to emulate Ellison, but so what? >will also gather I am not a fan of Harlan Ellison :-)). Obviously. Tastes differ. I AM a fan of Ellison, except when he writes bad stories. Not being a fan of Ellison is something to be proud of? >If this is the style that Varley wants to write in now, that is of >course his privilege; he does it well. Nor have I any quarrel with >the people who enjoy it. Oh, but you do, or you wouldn't be making these postings... [editorial comment time: This posting sounds suspiciously like a "if I don't like it, it ain't good" posting. As I said above, tastes differ. Some people say that cohabitating with goats is a Bad Thing. Others swear by it. So what, unless it is your goat? To overuse an analogy, this posting is like the people who say "I really like Woody Allen films, especially the early, funny ones" [paraphrased from Stardust Memories, for those that were wondering]. Many authors get tired of writing the same old thing. Some even get better with age. Expecting an author to always write the same story over and over again is like going to a restaurant and always ordering the same dish. The cook is probably going to get tired of fixing it and you're palate is eventually going to stop tasting it. Different, of course, doesn't always mean better, by any means, but if all you want is a Varley book that reads as well as Persistence of Vision, why not just re-read Persistence of Vision? Just because you stay in the same place doesn't mean you should ask the author to. Tastes change. If an author isn't writing what you want them to write, either find a new author (there are LOTS of them out there) for write it yourself! That way you have complete quality control.] Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 87 20:25:53 GMT From: jhardest@Wheeler-EMH Subject: BOOKS - Tad Williams I just picked up a new book - Tailchaser's Song by Tad Williams. Has anbody else read this book ? This book is similar to Watership Down but told from a cat's point of view and a bit similar to LOTR with legends and such like. I throughly enjoyed the book ... being a cat lover does not hurt either. john hardesty BBNCC, Hawaii jhardest@wheeler-emh ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jan 87 18:05:04 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: "Free Live Free" by Gene Wolfe Okay, so it finally came out in paperback, and I had this gift certificate to Waldenbooks.... "Free Live Free" is actually three stories in one book, all intermingled. Wolfe could have written a book from any of them. In fact, I'd rather. The book opens as four destitute people... a Gypsy witch, a salesman, a private detective (with a badge), and a fat hooker - these titles describe them completely - try to save the home of Benjamin Free from destruction to make way for a new freeway overpass. They live free - no rent - as long as they do whatever they can to keep that building standing. Ben Free hints that there is a ticket to his home - the "High Country", hidden in the walls somewhere. The witch takes this in a figurative sense... that Free is some sort of supernatural being who has taken on the mantel of mortality for a time, and has left his "crown" somewhere about. In any event, Free passes out hints to everyone about the "crown", then the house is partially destroyed and Free disappears. Okay, that ends the first part of the book. Before I bought it, I thought that's all there was. But it continues for several hundred more pages. It's not the writing I have issue with; Gene Wolfe is a fantastic writer. But as all the characters scurry about trying to find Free and his "crown" or "ticket", it begins to read a little like a John Irving novel, but without the characterizations. Because about a third of the way through the book, I realized that every character was a stereotype - each character acted exactly as you'd expect. Not only the four main characters, but a reporter from a pair of supermarket rags, employees at a mental asylum (where everyone is automatically assumed to either be a patient, or very much deserving to be), the fanatical cop, nosey neighbor (who talks entirely in fractured cliches), etc. So after a couple of hundred pages of these unrealistic characters shuffling from one screwball encounter to another, the last part of the book zips in to gather up the loose threads and tie them together in one incredibly convoluted knot. I won't spoil this -- it'd take away any reason for reading the book. My recomendation: Read the book if you can get it without paying for it. Or if given to you, then read the first part of the book, then skip directly to the last part -- the middle isn't really necessary to the ending. Also, the American paperback edition includes a timeline of Ben Free's life in the back. A note explains that the American publisher asked for this, and it does not appear on foreign editions, or any hardback edition. And then go read Glen Cook's "A Matter of Time". ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jan 87 10:48 EST From: LUCE ERIC J Subject: re: query for info. about torcs.. You posted a query for aid in the usage of torcs... unfortunately my religion is not up to snuff... check the Celtic mythos, more specifically, druidism... a torc was part of their dress. It has religious significance. There is also, or was ( B-) ), a "Torc of the gods:" Made by Goibhnie (their "blacksmith of the gods.") It was, I believe, given to heroes of that mythos. My spelling is undoubtedly off, but check for the following names: Dagda, "the dozen king," Arawn, "The Dark One," (their god of the dead.) Goibhnie, "the blacksmith of the gods," Morrigan "the goddes of war," Oghma, "The Binder, Patron of music," (or bards, or minstrels, or skjalds, their god of knowledge.) The list goes on and on. Oh, and, yes, for a famous hero-type: Cu Chulainn (there are several more proper spellings, but I can't remember them... my celtic is in real poor shape.) Eric Luce ARPA: luce@ge-crd.arpa UUCP: seismo!rpics!rpiacm!scanner BITNET: useretta@rpitsmts.bitnet ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jan 87 0844-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #11 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 12 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 11 Today's Topics: Television - Anderson (2 msgs) & Galaxy Rangers & Robotech (4 msgs) & Salvage 1 (3 msgs) & Star Trek (3 msgs) & Twilight Zone ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Jan 87 09:11:18 GMT From: jam@comp.lancs.ac.uk (John A. Mariani) Subject: Fanderson : The Gerry Anderson Appreciation Society Hello. During a brief period a while back this newsgroup was treated to a flurry of articles regarding the work of Gerry Anderson. As a long-time GA fan, I volunteered the address of the Gerry Anderson Appreciation Society -- FANDERSON -- to anyone who e-mailed me (trying to avoid those oh-so-tedious repetative messages). The response was poor, to say the least. However, having lost those messages but wishing to keep my promise despite the cost to the net, here it comes := Helen McCarthy 147 Francis Road Leyton London E10 6NT England As a FANDERSON member, you will recieve copies of a nice little fanzine, SIG (Supermarionation Is Go); this contains enough info to dispel those awful misconceptions caused by foggy memories of those 60's puppet shows. If you do write, tell em who sent ya! Anderson. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 87 19:29:03 GMT From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Thunderbirds, by Gerry Anderson Does anyone out there remember Thunderbirds? A series by Gerry Anderson (sp?) which used Supermarionation, a type of puppeteering with electronics. It is really important to me. I am looking for a products list for the Thunderbirds television series. Can someone tell me how many episodes were filmed, what they were, (I remember I was about 6 when I used to watch it) and some info about the show? Also, I have seen the video tape of the movie "Thunderbird 6" and wondered if there were other movies out on video from MGM/UA or others. Can anyone tell me the address for Corgi toys? I remember that they used to make metal models (Toys) of the Thunderbirds, because a friend of mine had a Thunderbird 2 way back then. Would there still be any around? Also, I had a model of Thunderbird 1. Can anyone tell me the address of the company who made the Thunderbirds models? Any leads would be appreciated, from addresses of companies who put out baseball-type cards, to addresses of people who wouldn't mind parting with some of the items they have. What I am mainly after, is info on Thunderbird 1 and 2, a list of the videos available, and to purchase models and toys. HELP! Sean Huxter Apt. 420 235 Blackmarsh Rd. St. John's, NF, Canada UUCP: {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4,mcvax,utesri}!garfield!sean1 CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 86 09:41:06 GMT From: crash!victoro@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dr. Snuggles) Subject: Re: SF on television Another current animated episode (Robotech is still tops!) is the program "Galaxy Rangers." As my taping assistant said today, "this show doesn't stuff parental warnings down the viewer's throat, like so many cartoon programs these days." This show has intelligence. It should be supported. And, as I hear of parental groups marching support of formula children's programming (You haven't heard of He-Man day?) I feel that the few good shows get lost in the shuffle. (Stay tuned - Episode guide soon to follow.) San Diego Area: Channel 51 Daily 8AM M-F Victor O'Rear {hplabs!hp-sdd,akgua,sdcsvax,nosc}!crash!victoro ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc ------------------------------ Date: 25 Dec 86 17:02:52 GMT From: lsuc!jimomura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim Omura) Subject: Re: SF on television I doubt if it's any news to anybody, but Robotech is one of the best animated SF shows ever to be produced. The storyline is one of the few capable of being enjoyed by any age group. The characters are vivid and have complex personalities. I just started watching it this summer, but it's been going for quite a while as I understand it. Currently Robotech is a long continuing story which in turn is actually a concatenation of 3 stories. The first story is "The Macross Saga" and stars Rick Hunter, Lynn Minmei and Lisa Hayes in a love triangle which is not quite soap-opera level. The war against the Zentraedi at times seems only to form a backdrop for this story and some of the other stories which give this series such a rich texture. Another late developing story is the strange love affair between Max Sterling and Miriya who almost killed him. This is NOT Hanna - Barbara stuff! When you see one of the principal girls getting stoned in a bar because her love is spending the night with another girl (albeit without sex) and death is made very real with key cast members dying (no reincarnations and hanging around a la Ben Kenobi stuff) you can be sure you aren't just seeing Jonny Quest. Cheers! Jim O. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 86 04:56:06 GMT From: weitek!robert@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Karen L. Black) Subject: Re: SF on television Robotech may have no reincarnations, but it sure has one whale of a lot of flashbacks. It seems like every sixth episode is composed of previous footage! Karen Black c/o Robert Plamondon UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 86 03:42:59 GMT From: lsuc!jimomura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim Omura) Subject: Re: SF on television robert@weitek.UUCP (Karen L. Black) writes: >Robotech may have no reincarnations, but it sure has one whale of a >lot of flashbacks. It seems like every sixth episode is composed >of previous footage! Yeah, but they're really *great* flashbacks, right? ;-) Actually, so far my favorite episodes are Broken Heart, Rainy Night, Farewell Big Brother, Season's Greetings, To The Stars in The Macross Saga and Dana's Story in the Robotech Masters. Dana's Story is at least 1/2 flashbacks. My favorite characters so far (I've seen about 1/2 of all the episodes I think) are Roy Fokker and Dana Sterling, with Max and Miriya Sterling a close 2nd. My favorite scene is probably the video game sequence when Max first meets Miriya face to face. Hey, Minmei's not so bad. In her own way she had more guts than Lisa Hayes. Lisa had Claudia to give her encouragement. Minmei didn't have anybody to help her face Rick (in the Christmas episode). Cheers! Jim O. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 87 13:24:45 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: SF on television Does anybody out there in net land know when Robotech will arrive in Britain I've seen the graphic novels in a local specialist comic shop but nobody there knows when or if it will be televised here Thanks in advance Piers Cawley ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 18:00:21 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: SF on television From: mccutchen%nuhavn.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (R. TERRY MCCUTCHEN) > There are two SF television shows that I haven't seen anyone > mention. One stared Andy Griffen (sp?) and was named something > like SALVAGE 7. That's Andy Griffith and SALVAGE 1, which, despite it's stupid premise, wasn't a bad show at all. Interestingly enough, one of the co-producers was Harve Bennett, who is more well known for producing the last three STAR TREK films. > The other was a Jack Webb production where they did various UFO > sightings (I don't remember the title, maybe PROJECT BLUEBOOK) This was PROJECT U.F.O., sort of a "CE3K meets DRAGNET". ("Just the pseudo-facts, M'am.") --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 86 23:48:36 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: SF on television boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: >That's Andy Griffith and SALVAGE 1, which, despite it's stupid >premise, wasn't a bad show at all. Interestingly enough, one of the >co-producers was Harve Bennett, who is more well known for >producing the last three STAR TREK films. You might have also noticed the tech. advisor: a biochemist from New York, by the name of Asimov. (And, it also starred Bruce Boxleitner (sp?), for you triv buffs. But, who was the female? Hmm,...) seismo!nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 26 Dec 86 13:21:49 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: SF on television kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) writes: >>That's Andy Griffith and SALVAGE 1, > (And, it also starred Bruce Boxleitner (sp?), for you triv buffs. > But, who was the female? Hmm,...) No it didn't. It starred Andy Griffith as Harry Broderick Joel Higgins as Skip Carmichael Trish Stewart as Melanie Slozar Richard Jaeckel as Jack Klinger Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 86 13:45:36 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald(Sarek) Subject: Saturday Night Live I hope all the Trekkies out there saw William Shatner on SNL two weeks ago. The first skit was a convention, where the people were wearing I GROK SPOCK, etc. T-shirts. I saw one there that I wouldn't mind having. Then, someone announced the sale of DeForrest Kelly's (sp??) new hit single, "He's dead, Jim!". One of the guests was Yeoman (something-or-other), supposedly from the first 15 minutes of one of the episodes. Then Shatner came in, as the guest of honor. After trying to field questions about Kirk's safe combination and Shatner's ranch, he went off on this big speech about "Get a life, people!" After a heated argument with the con manager, he got back on stage and announced that he was recreating the role of the Evil Captain Kirk, from "The Enemy Within", episode 34 (34 is "The Changeling"). The second skit was "STAR TREK V--THE RESTAURANT ENTERPRISE". The people playing Spock and McCoy had it just right. This skit featured Khan, finally getting his revenge on Kirk by bringing in a health inspector. Kirk rapidly borrows some money from Spock and Bones and foils Khan's plan by bribing the inspector. The other skit showed Shatner prancing in front of a mirror in T-shirt and boxers, boasting to his wife about how good he looked ("Look at that butt!") This show was too good to miss. If you did, find someone who taped it and watch it. st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 87 16:18:32 cst From: Brett Slocum Subject: re: James Kirk ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp) asks about the ST episode "The Conscience of the King" where Kirk fingers Kodos the Executioner, and how this can be reconciled with his Iowa farm upbringing. It was my impression that the incident in TCotK occurred when Kirk was a young man, not a child. Perhaps Kirk was assigned to this planet while a young officer in StarFleet, assuming that he joined when he was 18 or so. Oh well, this isn't one of my favorite episodes anyway, so I don't really care about whether it maintains continuity. Brett Slocum ARPA: hi-csc!slocum@UMN-CS.ARPA UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jan 87 04:46:28 GMT From: ix241@sdcc6.ucsd.EDU (ix241) Subject: Star Trek; The New Generation Paramount has signed Rodenberry to do a new series. The Working Title is Star Trek; The New Generation. Based on Briefing by David Gerrold, a member of Rodenberry's staff and the screen writer for The Trouble with Tribbles, at Universe 87 and Loscon XIII, Rodenberry is trying to put together a good show that will be fun to watch. They would like to duplicate the success of the orginal ST without copying the Original. The production is going directly to the syndicating stations. As of December 125 have signed on. There is no repeat NO network involvment. Paramount has committed for 26 hours of production for the first season. (at a million dollars an hour to produce) Cast has not been selected yet. There will be about eight main characters. Four male and four female. The attributes of the characters are still being worked on. Gerrold admits that cast selection will be the hardest thing they have to do. Screenwriters for the the first six scripts have been contracted. All of the screenwriters either worked for the original ST from the first season or are known to fandom as followers of the "true path." The Enterprise is still the ship. The mission is basically the same. The ship is the 1701H. It is larger and has about double the crew. There is provision on the ship for family of crew. (no provision for family on the bridge!) Gerrold and other members of Rodenberry's staff are trying to go to conventions to spread official rumors and quell crap. I think that Rodenberry is trying to make a good show. We will have to see. At least we only have to wait until September to find out. John Testa UCSD Chemistry sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jan 87 05:32:38 GMT From: ut-sally!kelvin@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kelvin Thompson) Subject: last word on Ellison and Twilight Zone The Feb. 1987 issue of _Twilight_Zone_ magazine (only remotely affiliated with the TV show -- they both bought rights to the name from Serling's daughter) spends a good twenty pages on the flap that caused Harlan Ellison to leave the TV-TZ show a year ago. Included are... "Nackles" -- A reprint of the orignial short story by Donald Westlake that inspired the segment that Ellison wrote. "Nackles" -- Ellison's teleplay that caused all the problems. Special sidebars contain dialogue that was added or modified to mollify the censors. "The Deadly 'Nackles' Affair" -- Ellison gives his side of the affair. My impressions? Glad you asked. I was sort of disappointed by it all. I was hoping the original story and teleplay would be nicely wicked and that Ellison's account of the flap would be full of scathing accounts of Hollywood backstabbing and bullshitting (like in his Glass Teat books). Nope. The original story (about a man describing an anti-Santa-Claus to keep his kids in line, and it gradually coming true) is pretty average for that type of story. Ellison's teleplay is better, but still would have been disappointing if it had aired. And Ellison's writeup has no surprises -- he talks a lot about how he should have known better than to get into TV again, but got coaxed by some nice people (the show's producers); and the cancellation of the "Nackles" segment happened about like you'd expect: one censor reluctantly approved the script, then a new censor came in and shut the project down just when they were on the verge of shooting. I can understand his frustration (it would have been his first directing project), but Ellison of all people should not have been surprised (as Ellison himself admits). A quick plug for the magazine: If you like horror and odd fantasy stories, I highly recommend TZ magazine. Each issue has 6-12 short stories, usually excellent, plus book and movie reviews. Unfortunately, the magazine doesn't show up much on magazine stands (at least here in Austin, TX). Kelvin Thompson kelvin@sally.utexas.edu kelvin@mcc.com ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jan 87 0859-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #12 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 12 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 12 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (3 msgs) & Card & Niven (2 msgs) & Wolfe & Zelazny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Jan 87 07:14:38 PST (Thursday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM Subject: Teckla The point for me is the Brust had already proven that he was a superlative author with Jhereg and Yendi. His books were first class entertainment, better than anything I had read in the field for a long time. Nobody needs to apologize for writing a fantastically good read. Teckla simply wasn't as much fun to read as the other two. ****** Possible Spoiler Material Follows ******* I don't generally need to search in literature to find painful changes and unclear issues, since I tend to see plenty of them in real life all the time (What an admission!). It's the same reason I don't generally go to see movies like "Who's afraid of Virginia Woolfe". What pleased me about Jhereg and Yendi both was that there was plenty of convoluted plot, lots of interesting characters, and massive doses of imagination. Vlad worked on his problems and through cleverness and competence managed to solve them. Teckla was different. We are treated to an excruciating view of the poor and opressed, a sudden total alteration of character in Cawti (who a few weeks ago in story time was relishing the chance to do an assasination to help Vlad out, and who now is a veritable angel of mercy spouting "power of the armed masses" rhetoric), a situation where Vlad tries lots of stuff with never better than extremely mixed results. Vlad ends up hating himself and half the other characters while accomplishing virtually nothing except setting himself up for MUCH more pain in a later book. Is this fun? Having made my tirade, an aside for those who enjoy speculating about our favorite assasin. Is Spellbreaker a Great Weapon, as I now begin to suspect? Kurt ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 87 03:43:35 GMT From: dzoey@terminus.umd.edu (Joe I. Herman) Subject: Re: Teckla I just finished Teckla, and let me tell you, it's not the carefree book that Jhereg and Yendi were. I had hoped to sit down with this book and have a couple of hours of good laughs and pure escapism. This is not that kind of a book. From the other reviews I've read, this is what most people wanted the book to be, which does lead to some less than enthusiastic reviews. As a book (and not 'as the book I wanted to read') I very much enjoyed Teckla. I have long felt that SKZB's strength was in his characterizations and the good way he communicates his characters to the reader. This book allowed Vlad to become a much more complicated person than the happy-go-lucky assassin he was in his earlier books and I found I was more involved in this book than the previous two. What was a little disconcerting was the change in Cawti's character. SKZB explained it away by saying that Vlad hadn't noticed she was becoming different until all of a sudden, she was a 'different person' from the one he married. This explanation seemed a little superficial at first, but from what I've heard from people who've gotten divorced after quite a few years, it may be true. Either way, having troubles with Cawti allowed me to believe Vlad's lack of direction throughout the book. After all, if I was fighting the woman I loved, I'd be distraught also. I felt this was a good reason for Vlad to be so unsure of himself, which otherwise would have been way out of character. Nicely executed. I do have some problems with the book. First of all, it's not the book I wanted to read. :-) Second of all, I find reading about a character's constant indecision sort of dull. Granted, SKZB does a better job of keeping the book interesting than most authors, but some of the book kept reminding me of Steven Donaldsons extremely dull and pedantic style. There are some things I wonder about the book. Vlad mentions a few times about Sethra telling him he was a reincarnated Dragaerian. I don't remember the scene where she tells him this. Was it in one of the other books? (I know, I should go back and re-read them again). Also, it seems to me that SKZB likes the idea of revolution. Revolution was a key part in his last two books (Brokedown and To Reign In Hell) as well as Teckla. I wonder what the fascination is? One thing I really liked, even though it did slow the book down sometimes, was the arguments between the 60's call to revolution philosophy and the 80's cynicism. I found the arguments on both sides very well portrayed. Also, I kept trying to think of how the story would be told if Cawti was narrating the tale. Unfortunatly, Cawti's character wasn't developed enough for me to really do this. So, if you want a good lite read then this may not be the book you're looking for. But, you will want to read this book eventually. It tells it's story very well, and Vlad becomes a very engrossing character. It is a little depressing, partly because it is a tragicomedy and partly because the human interaction and problems are very real. Three stars, Dzoey DZOEY@TERMINUS.UMD.EDU DZOEY@UMDD.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 87 21:08:45 GMT From: uw-june!ewan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ewan Tempero) Subject: Re: Teckla Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes: > Having made my tirade, an aside for those who enjoy speculating > about our favorite assasin. Is Spellbreaker a Great Weapon, as I > now begin to suspect? I'm inclined to agree. This is the first time we've learned anything about Spellbreaker and Sethra's (was it her - I can't remember) reaction to Vlad finding it does suggest "great weapon". There are so many stories here that I would like to hear (like Vlad's trip to deathgate falls, when Vlad met Morollan, when Catwi held a dagger to Morollan.. ). Yes I did find Catwi's change in character a little hard to swallow. Especially once I realized how shortly after Jhereg Teckla takes place. However I liked Teckla if only for its style. There were definite differences in style between Brokedown Palace, To Reign in Hell and the stories of Vlad but Teckla *was* recognizably a Vlad story. question: Did Devera appear? I read Teckla fairly quickly and can only think of one possible reference but then it could have been wishful thinking. When Franz appeared, for a moment(during the explanation of how souls move about) I thought it was Devera but.... Ewan Tempero UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 87 06:36:49 GMT From: eppstein@tom.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) Subject: Ender's Game and qualities of good fiction crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes: > I think that Ender's Game is an example of *just* the sort of > thing Spinrad was proposing as Good; it transcends and enlarges > the plastic replaceable plot, by exposing its flaws. My opinion is that Ender's Game and more particularly its sequel Speaker for the Dead were not especially well written. But I agree with you that they're not flawed merely for having cliched plot elements. > I assert that *story* is the most important factor in fiction, and > that the quality of the story can be measured by how deeply one > becomes immersed, hypnotised, enthralled by the story. ... I think > unpredictability of the plot also enhances this: if I know what is > coming, it no longer excites me. Here I disagree. To me, the plot itself is much much less important than the quality of its presentation (you mention some of this in the parts I cut out). If I had to depend on not knowing what was coming to maintain my interest in a book, I would never reread anything; but one of the criteria I use to determine whether I consider a book good is how well it stands up to rereading. Your mileage may vary of course; and certainly suspense is not totally unimportant for me (or I would read spoilers instead of skipping them). But I don't think you should say that 'story is most important' as an objective fact rather than merely as part of your own set of values (I may be agreeing with you again here). David Eppstein eppstein@cs.columbia.edu seismo!columbia!cs!eppstein ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 87 18:07:12 PST From: Bruce_Schuck%SFU.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Larry Niven and teleportation booths I think everybody is missing the essential points about teleportation. 1. It will take millions of years to cross the galaxy(let alone to other galaxies) in order to construct this network of teleportation booths. 2.Even in Niven's stories not all booths could connect with every other booth. There were local networks of booths that covered cities. There were national networks that covered countries and there was an international network that covered the Earth. Every change in network involved a physical appearance and redialing in order to move around. Imagine all the dialling involved and time spent in booths. 3. Every change in latitude involved a brief stop in a booth designed to absorb the energy difference in rotational speed of the Earth. In Nivens stories there was gigantic structure in the middle of Lake Superior for this situation. The water surrounding the structure(a big styrofoam bubble?) absorbed the energy. Can you imagine the number of transfers to absorb energy from moving between planets or solar systems that have velocity differentials of thousands of miles per second(kps for those metric freaks) instead of the hundreds of miles per HOUR(kpH) on earth? People would be turned into jelly on the insides of the transfer booths. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 87 20:52:57 GMT From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths I seem to have come in late to the discussion regarding transfer booths. Bruce_Schuck@SFU.Mailnet said: >1. It will take millions of years to cross the galaxy(let alone to >other galaxies) in order to construct this network of teleportation >booths. Unless you invent a transporter that does not require a receiver. Star Trek is an obvious example, but you might also like "All The Colors Of Darkness" by Biggle. Biggle goes on to suggest a space ship that moves by transporting itself (transmitter and all) to the limit of its range, then doing it again (a hop at a time). >2.Even in Niven's stories not all booths could connect with every >other booth. There were local networks of booths that covered >cities. There were national networks that covered countries and >there was an international network that covered the Earth. > Every change in network involved a physical appearance and >redialing in order to move around. Imagine all the dialling >involved and time spent in booths. Why is the re-dialing necessary? Even if you do have to appear at each stop, the next hop could be routed for you. >3. Every change in latitude involved a brief stop in a booth >designed to absorb the energy difference in rotational speed of the >Earth. In Nivens stories there was gigantic structure in the middle >of Lake Superior for this situation. The water surrounding the >structure(a big styrofoam bubble?) absorbed the energy. I seem to remember something heftier, like an island of steel in the middle of a lake of mercury. And two of them: small for people, a large one for freight. (But I coulda mis-remembered) > Can you imagine the number of transfers to absorb energy from >moving between planets or solar systems that have velocity >differentials of thousands of miles per second(kps for those metric >freaks) instead of the hundreds of miles per HOUR(kpH) on earth? > >People would be turned into jelly on the insides of the transfer >booths. You just need a larger damping mechanism. But why do you need the damper at all? Why not just send the pattern of the item and re-construct it on the spot. Depending on the scanning technology and laws involved, the original would either be free to go on its way, destroyed for book-keeping, or destroyed as part of the scan. For other visions of transporter technology, try: "Way Station" - Simak "Cookoo Is Coming" - Pohl? "Spock Must Die" - Blish? ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 87 00:57:05 GMT From: gouvea@husc4.harvard.edu (fernando gouvea) Subject: Re: Free Live Free matt@inuxg.UUCP writes: >> Now, does anyone want to discuss [...] why >> it's so difficult trying to get through "Free Live Free" even >>though it's written in the most accessible language Gene Wolfe has >>ever produced? > >Funny you should mention this. I bought Free Live Free a couple of >weeks ago and after four nights of struggle set it aside. And this >is from someone who LOVED TBOTNS series (I have read it four >times). Wolfe seems to draw up an interesting bunch of characters >in FLF but they (the characters) don't go anywhere, and they are >going nowhere _very_ slowly. > >Maybe I was expecting something more like Soldier of the Mist in >that not only are the characters interesting but the situations >themselves are interesting and layered in complexity. I guess I'm strange, but I liked it quite a bit. I really liked the way Wolfe took these character stereotypes (all four main characters are types we've all seen before) and brought them to life. I found the book funny, and light, and pleasant to read. The first time through, I was a little frustrated by the convoluted ending, but the second time, when I was no longer worried about figuring out what was going on, I enjoyed the book a lot. To be sure, this is minor Wolfe, but I found it quite readable. I agree that Soldier of the Mist is something far more substantial, but I'm surprised people are having trouble finishing Free Live Free. Maybe it's just that I like Wolfe and his writing so much that I don't see the problems you all see. Those out there reading this, I vote you give FLF a try. Fernando ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 87 02:46:05 GMT From: sdsu!cademy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Robert Cademy) Subject: AMBER ****** SPOLIER WARNING!****** Well, I just finished reading the AMBER postings of some time back, and I have some things to add. Rather than cover past ground, I will hit a subject that I did not see in the postings. This is: what do the last few "Alice in Wonderland" pages of Blood of Amber mean. Here are my thoughts: When Merlin is being pulled into wonderland, he feels this: "There was a mad power I could not fight and the universe seemed to twist as it took hold of me. Constellations parted before me and I saw the bright railing again..." I found the following passage in Courts of Chaos (pg 127 paperback): "'It is like the last chapter of _Alice_,' I said. 'If I shout, 'You are only a pack of cards!' I feel we will all fly into the air, a hand of painted pasteboards. I am not going with you. Leave me here. I am only the Joker, anyway.'" This was Corwin talking to Fiona, shortly after Brand is killed. Now, if we are to assume that created patterns take on elements of their creator, can we conclude that the pattern Corwin made has Alice in Wonderland inscribed in it? To really grasp at straws; Rinaldo (Luke) was flying into the Keep of Four Worlds when he can't remember exactly what happened. Could the Keep be a junction of Chaos, Amber, Corwin's Universe, and some other world? And when Rinaldo flew in he got caught up in a "jet stream" and flung into Corwin's Universe? Could Corwin have pulled him in, and used him to get to Merlin? Ideas??? Robert Cademy ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jan 87 0917-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #13 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 12 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 13 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Blish & Brust & Bradley (2 msgs) & Donaldson & Gerrold & Niven & Varley & Zelazny & Typos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Jan 87 12:49:48 GMT From: amdahl!kim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kim DeVaughn) Subject: Re: Foundation and Earth by Isaac Asimov brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: > Recently I finished "Foundation and Earth", the supposed > termination of the new combined Foundation/Robot series by Asimov. > [ ... ] But what about the synapsifier and the Earth conspiracy? > Has Asimov left a giant loose end or is another book on the way? I dunno about the synapsifier Brad, but I have heard that "Prelude to Empire" is the next one on the way. Not sure when it's supposed to be published. I also predict at least one more Robot novel ... Daneel must have had MANY experiences worth writing about during those MANY thousands of years :-)! kim UUCP:{sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb,cbosgd}!amdahl!kim DDD: 408-746-8462 USPS:Amdahl Corp. M/S 249, 1250 E. Arques Av, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 87 11:47:26 est From: Bard Bloom Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #417 >> Father Selahny, a terrifying kabalist who spoke in parables and >> of whom it was said that no one since Leviathan had understood >> his counsel; > > Are there any other writers buried in there? The first task or test that Baines sets Ware is to kill Governor Rogan of California; Reagan, of course. Bard ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 87 17:58:20 GMT From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: Teckla Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes: >Teckla was different. We are treated to an excruciating view of the >poor and opressed, a sudden total alteration of character in Cawti >(who a few weeks ago in story time was relishing the chance to do >an assasination to help Vlad out, and who now is a veritable angel >of mercy spouting "power of the armed masses" rhetoric), a >situation where Vlad tries lots of stuff with never better than >extremely mixed results. Vlad ends up hating himself and half the >other characters while accomplishing virtually nothing except >setting himself up for MUCH more pain in a later book. Is this fun? I don't know whether it was fun or not, but by all the gods and goddesses, it was good. Real people do behave like Cawti. The have fantastic personality shifts for all the right reasons -- and you can't believe the reasons. Cawti is alive and brilliant, and I would like to wring her goddamnded neck at the earliest opportunity because I can't stand the pain of watching her make such real, courageous mistakes......Hot damn! Steven Brust is God. Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 87 07:00:15 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Sword of Aldones - not all that bad. mangoe@mimsy.UUCP writes: >Avoid _Sword of Aldones at all cost. This one is a matter of taste. Personally I feel that Sword of Aldones is a fun book to read. Of course I may be a little biased in that I read it shortly after realizing that fiction had some virtue to it after all. It was also my first all-nighter. Granted it was poorly written and does not mesh at all with the rest of the series - but if you view it by itself the images and ideas in it are fascinating. So my recommendation is that rather than avoiding it - a person reading the series for the first time sould seek it out as one of the first to read so you can enjoy it without worrying about continuity with the rest of the series. A question to consider for you died in the wool Darkover fans out there: How many Ideas were introduced in Sword of Aldones that were droped even before MZB started treating Darkover as a coherent series (for this I'm considering the dividing line to be before Darkover Landfall although I could make a case for it being as late as the Forbidden Tower or the Bloody Sun [rewrite]) Just a few to jog your memory: 1. "Even in the Comyn there was no love lost between the Altons and the Ardais" (quote not exact but the sentiment is) 2. "The Compact was law on all the worlds of the Darkovan League" 3. The glowing radioactive hulks on the field of the Ancient Starships 4. Darkovans being clausterphobic. This does no include a few inconsistancies that only croped up in the Heritage of Hastur like the color of Marjorie Scot's hair. Just the background details that were changed. Another question that I cant think of the answer to at the moment - in just what book did Darkover become an Ice planet. In most of the books published by Ace (the early ones) I don't remember any special memtion of an excepionally cold climate being made. Except for Star of Danger - but Kennard and Larry were hiking in the mountains with minimal equipment. Covert C Beach {ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 87 19:04:22 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Sword of Aldones - not all that bad. Personally, I think Sword of Aldones is a) badly written, and b) way outside the (loosely) consistent Darkovan timeline & society. (Same goes for Planet Savers.) But I wanted to mention my favorite ridiculous moment in early Darkover, from Star of Danger. Kennard and Larry are hiking through the wilds, and in a tense moment Kennard turns to Larry and says: (brace yourself) "Here, Lerrys! Hold my starstone!" I mean, _really_. Shoshanna Green ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 87 17:13:43 GMT From: ihlpl!alle@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Marguerite Czajka) Subject: Donaldson Through my book club, I got "Mirror of Her Dreams" by Stephen Donaldson. I think I have the author right! - anyway the one who wrote the Thomas Covenant books. Since I enjoyed the TC books, I thought I'd read this one but I was surprised to find out it doesn't end - it says it's continued in "A Man Rides Through". Does anyone know if this second book is out? I couldn't find it the bookstores I went to, and the book club doesn't list it. Marguerite ihnp4!iwsan!maggie2 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 87 03:51:47 GMT From: myers@hobiecat.Caltech.Edu (Bob Myers) Subject: David Gerrold Does anybody know if there are any plans for mhorr of the Chtorr books? (apologies to Anne McCaffrey). I have the first two, and it's been TWO YEARS since _A Day for Damnation_ came out. I really enjoyed these a lot (and I liked the second one better), and have been anxiously awaiting the next book, but have never heard anything. Thanks. Bob Myers myers@hobiecat.Caltech.Edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 87 19:31:40 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Is this any way to run a transfer booth system? Bruce_Schuck%SFU.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA writes: > 1. It will take millions of years to cross the galaxy(let alone to > other galaxies) in order to construct this network of > teleportation booths. Well.... I guess this is right if "a tenth of a million" qualifies as "millions", and assuming that the construction is limited to lightspeed. > 2.Even in Niven's stories not all booths could connect with every > other booth. There were local networks of booths that covered > cities. There were national networks that covered countries and > there was an international network that covered the Earth. > Every change in network involved a physical appearance and > redialing in order to move around. Imagine all the dialling > involved and time spent in booths. Ok, let's imagine these problems. Let's assume a heirarchically arranged net, where one can transfer only to nodes of the net on the same level, one particular distinguished "parent node" on the next level up, or to any of the nodes on the next level down for which you are currently at the "parent node". Ok. Let's assume that the heirarchy groups things into four-digit-sized groups. How many transfers would one have to make, worst case, to get between any two nodes in a galaxy-sized heirarchically arranged group of such nodes (a trillion street addresses per star, one hundred million stars)? If the heirarchy were pretty optimally laid out, at worst nine transfers, dialing between 1 and 5 digits at each transfer. To be precise about this "between 1 and 5" stuff, let's assume that a standard telephone keypad is used. "*" means "go to parent node", "#" followed by four digits means "go to a sibling node", and four digits without a special prefix means "go to a child node". So, to get to Aunt Mirabelle's across town, dial "#4386". To get to Cousin Jane the other side of the big city, dial "* #2654 3467". To get to anyplace on earth, the worst case is something like "* * #9999 9999 9999". We might make a special case for nodes with no child nodes, so that to get to Mirabelle's place, you could just dial 4386 and leave off the sibling prefix. To make the system ten thousand times bigger adds only two transfers to the worst case, so even if things are very sloppy or if you colonize more stars more densely, you should be able to get away with fewer than 20 or so transfers, and this is to get anywhere in the galaxy from anywhere else in the galaxy, down to the street-address level or finer. Think of how many transfers (from one carrier to another) one has to make right now, just to get between any two points on earth at the street-address level, and suddenly galactic teleportation doesn't look so bad. I mean, I think I've had worse transfer problems in the NYC subway system. > 3. Every change in latitude involved a brief stop in a booth > designed to absorb the energy difference in rotational speed of > the Earth. > Can you imagine the number of transfers to absorb energy from > moving between planets or solar systems Yes, I can imagine it. One transfer. In particular, transfers to parent or child nodes would be hooked up to some momentum sink like Niven's in Lake Superior. Each planet might have a weight in a lake as Niven outlined, each some-size-or-other group of stars would have a black hole or two to throw momentum into, the galaxy might have a whopping big mother of a black hole at the center (come to think of it... it really might). So each transfer not at a leaf node could take care of the momentum difference, just as the transfers between "airports" did this for Niven's stories. > People would be turned into jelly on the insides of the transfer > booths. Not at all. But y'all are overlooking the most serious shortcoming from the transfer booth technology described in "Flash Crowd" and other stories. The transfer was lightspeed, not instantaneous. So you could dial yourself across the galaxy with nine transfers, take another nine to get back... and you will have been gone 200,000 years, though it would have been a few minutes to you. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 87 11:41:33 GMT From: clunk!don@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Don McKillican) Subject: Re: John Varley's BLUE CHAMPAGNE chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: > On the other hand, I felt that Blue Champagne was at least as good > as Persistence of Vision, and that the title story is the single > best piece of Varley I've ever read. No quarrel with the title story. It's my personal favorite from the collection as well. >>If this is the style that Varley wants to write in now, that is of >>course his privilege; he does it well. Nor have I any quarrel >>with the people who enjoy it. > > Oh, but you do, or you wouldn't be making these postings... > > [editorial comment time: This posting sounds suspiciously like a > "if I don't like it, it ain't good" posting. NO! And if that is the impression I am giving, I offer my startled apologies. What I was trying to say is that I did not like a lot of the book. That's all. My reasons, which I stated, have a lot more to do with the emotional atmosphere of the stories than their literary quality. What I said was basically that I had read Blue Champagne, that I had enjoyed a lot of Varley's early work, but that I did not enjoy Blue Champagne, specifically because of what I perceive as a tired, cynical atmosphere pervading especially the last half of the book. The only implication I meant anyone to draw from this was that if you enjoyed the early Varley, but do not enjoy tired, cynical fiction, then you quite conceivably may not like Blue Champagne either. I am not trying to say that Varley's technical skills as a writer have deserted him. I would be very surprised were that to happen. But I also have no problem saying both that I think something is well-written (as far as I can judge), and that I don't like it. Is this what is bothering you? Certainly an author is entitled to change over time. And I agree with you, Chuq, that it can be fascinating thing to watch. I don't happen to enjoy this trend of Varley's, that's all. And if it continues, yes, Chuq, I actually do know enough to stop reading it. Thank you for your advice. Don McKillican seismo!mnetor!genat!clunk!don {utcs,utai,utzoo,watmath}!lsuc!clunk!don ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 87 04:31:25 GMT From: g-clark@gumby.WISC.EDU (Morgan Clark) Subject: Re: Amber >And while we're on the subject, the second novel featuring Pol >Detson (_Madwand_) left me with a distinct impression that Zelazny >wasn't finished with this character. Is there another book >published (or planned?). From what I've heard, Zelazny wrote the next book, but there was a disagreement between him and the publisher over money, so the book didn't get published. I don't know if it ever will be published, but I'd like to see it some day. (I think this is right. I might be thinking of a different book) Morgan Clark g-clark@gumby.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 87 11:03:16 CST From: William Martin Subject: Typos in SF Books Just to add some comments to the discussion on typos: The John Varley BLUE CHAMPAGNE book I posted a recommendation of a couple days ago, even though put out by a small press, was plagued with typos. That surprised me, as I thought the small presses justified their existence by producing a higher-quality product than the majors did, by taking more care and being painstaking with all aspects of production. One aspect of that book I had meant to mention was that the typeface was wretched. I don't know enough about typography to say just what was wrong with it, or why I hated it, but it looked quite odd. Maybe it was computer-generated on lower-capability equipment? Has someone out there who knows about type seen this book and can comment on it? I got the paperback (Tor) of Graham Masterton's DEATH TRANCE from the library based on the review of it in the last OtherRealms. There is a repeated typo on the very first page, the "quote-from-the-book blurb" page or flyleaf (? -- is it a "flyleaf" if it isn't a blank page?) right inside the front cover. The word "mask" is spelled "mast" twice, and as "mask" twice, alternating! (It is used four times in the quote, and is the most important or key word in the scene, because of what happens.) Considering there is so little text on that page, and one of the typos is at the end of the first line and jumps out at you when you read it ("As a last defiant gensture, he lowered the mast over his head."), you really have to wonder about this one... Yours in nitpicking, Will ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Jan 87 0836-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #14 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 13 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 14 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Announcement for BITNET Subscribers, Books - Some Reviews & Man - Machine Interfaces & Golems ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Jan 87 07:44:31 EST From: Saul Subject: Major announcement of importance to BITNET subscribers If you are a BITNET subscriber to the digest, please read this message. Due to major changes in the link between INTERNET and BITNET, I have been forced to change the way that BITNET users subscribe and unsubscribe to the digest. The new procedure is as follows: If you are currently a subscriber listed in my direct distribution list, you will be automatically added to the BITNET distribution. If you are receiving the digest from some redistribution point, you should subscribe to the digest individually (see below). To subscribe to the digest on the bitnet side (if you have not already done so) issue the command: TELL LISTSERVE at RUTVM1 SUBSCRIBE SFLOVERS My Full Name To unsubscribe, use UNSUBSCRIBE. Those that have been added from my list do not have their names included in the list. I would appreciate it if you would issue the subscribe command and enter your full name so that I will know who you are. As in the past, if you want to communicate with me personally, you send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS. Problems and questions should also go to this address. If you want to contribute to the digest, send mail to SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS as before. If there are any questions, please feel free to ask. Saul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 87 02:38:50 MST From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: Reviews of six recent collections I suppose it goes without saying that I have a huge pile of unread books on a table next to my bed. Sometimes I feel like my reading is a quadratic curve which is trying to catch up with the factorial curve of my book purchases... Every now and then I read a book which is so good that I feel compelled to plug it in public. This is normally a fairly rare circumstance (do I hear distant sighs of relief?), but occasionally I hit a streak of books which seem to deserve this treatment. Recently I appear to have picked up the knack of buying excellent single-author story collections -- the last seven in a row that I've read have been uniformly superb. I've already attempted to foist HOWARD WHO? by Howard Waldrop upon an unsuspecting public, and now I propose to do the same for the remaining six books. MYTHS OF THE NEAR FUTURE. J G Ballard. Triad/Granada (UK) 1985, c1982. 205 pages, paperback. CLOSE ENCOUNTERS WITH THE DEITY. Michael Bishop. Peachtree Press 1986, c1986. 307 pages, trade paperback. BURNING CHROME. William Gibson. Arbor House 1986, c1986. 200 pages, hardcover. ONE HUMAN MINUTE. Stanislaw Lem. Harcourt Brace Jovanovich 1986, c1986. 102 pages, paperback. THE PLANET ON THE TABLE. Kim Stanley Robinson. Tor 1986, c1986. 241 pages, hardcover. TALES OF THE QUINTANA ROO. James Tiptree, Jr. Arkham House 1986, c1986. No page count, hardcover. When I was in high school I discovered Ballard's early work and loved some of it, loathed some of it and was baffled by the rest. Eventually I set it aside and hoped that someday I would understand it all. When EMPIRE OF THE SUN came out and proved to be as interesting as I'd heard it was, I began to read and re-read Ballard and this time I became completely hooked. The clue came when I read his novel THE UNLIMITED DREAM COMPANY, a beautiful work that I forcefully recommend to everyone who has the misunderstanding that Ballard is always opaque or depressing... The collection MYTHS OF THE NEAR FUTURE provides a very good cross-section of Ballard's work, encompassing several styles and moods. The title story is Ballard at his most essential, a delicate and moving revelation -- I now consider it my all-time favorite Ballard story. 'News from the Sun' is in the same uniquely Ballardian genre and is almost as good. There is a 'condensed novel' story, a few nasty sf-psychological- horror stories (the novels CRASH and HIGH-RISE fit in here), an amusing bit of sf satire and a visit to Shanghai in 1945 (cf. EMPIRE OF THE SUN); all of these are quite good. Only one story feels like a dud -- 'Theatre of War' is an attempt to portray a future Vietnam-style war in the UK, using a collage of materials from the actual Vietnam war; frankly I think the material is more horrible on its own than in some hypothetical sf situation... Unfortunately Triad Granada didn't see fit to print the original publication information for the stories in this book, so I don't know if they come from a cross-section of Ballard's career, as they appear to. Michael Bishop is still a startlingly original writer. His latest collection, CLOSE ENCOUNTERS WITH THE DEITY, contains some very different stories which (sometimes quite subtly) all concern the topic of religion. I don't know of any other sf writer who could produce a volume quite like this... There are a couple of outstanding stories in this book; the rest are merely very good. In the former category, 'Alien Graffiti' is a beautiful fable of man's communication with God, while 'The Gospel According to Gamaliel Crucis' is a funny account of the arrival of the Messiah in the form of an intelligent mantis-like insect from an alien planet. I'm still an atheist and a materialist, but I really liked these stories (and I think theists will be impressed, too). I also liked 'A Short History of the Bicycle: 401 BC to 2677 AD', about a man stranded on a planet of intelligent bicycles (shades of 'Or All the Seas with Oysters'!); 'A Gift from the GrayLanders', a haunting tale about a little boy's fear of ugly monsters who come in the night and how that fear is realized; 'Storming the Bijou, Mon Amour', in which a man who rebels against the systematized torture of human beings who are made to watch drive-in movies over and over again discovers how things could be worse; and 'A Spy in the Domain of Arnheim', about a character in a Magritte painting. Hackers should note that Bishop invents the concept of electronic enlightenment in 'The Bob Dylan Tambourine Software & Satori Support Services Consortium, Ltd.', in which you discover that your PC can be used to commune with God... ENCOUNTERS has a couple stories which verge upon the cute or the sentimental, but this didn't dim my enjoyment very much. William Gibson is hot right now. Normally that's a bit of a turn-off for me -- when I read reams of hype about a new writer, it tends to contaminate my appreciation of his work. If I'd read Bruce Sterling's introduction to BURNING CHROME before buying the book, I might never have even considered the purchase... Fortunately the stories are very good (even if I still don't believe all the hype!). Three classic 'cyberpunk' stories are in here: 'Johnny Mnemonic', 'New Rose Hotel' and 'Burning Chrome'. I think these stories are a cut above the imitations which have appeared since they came out; the writing is bright and melodramatic but never seems to parody itself (a constant danger when writing an action story). I particularly liked 'New Rose Hotel', a fast-moving adventure which revolves around some novel technological advances and is superficially about corporate espionage but more deeply about loyalty. There's also a prototype 'cyberpunk' story which I possibly like even better than some of its successors, 'Fragments of a Hologram Rose', which has some fascinating images. Possibly the best story in the book is 'Dogfight', a collaboration with Michael Swanwick, which is about the next step after video games; it makes a sharp point about human behavior that is somewhat in contrast with its 'cyberpunk' setting. I suppose that's one of the reasons why I continue to read Gibson in spite of the hype -- Gibson's characters are never overwhelmed by the technology or the action. It would be terribly convenient for Gibson to rely on the cardboard cut-outs which I see in 'hard-boiled' detective fiction or cheap spy novels... There are a couple of straight fantasies in CHROME that I really enjoyed too. 'The Belonging Kind', a collaboration with John Shirley, is about a man who wishes to be one of those people who always know what to say and how to dress, who look right in good restaurants or fancy parties (but there's more to it than he imagines). 'The Gernsback Continuum' is a bit of fluff about a man whose reality is being invaded by hokey 'technology' and architecture from the covers of '30s sf pulps; it reminded me a little of Blaylock's 'Paper Dragons'... This collection may never sell as well as NEUROMANCER but it is every bit as worth reading. Some time ago, Stanislaw Lem wrote a amazingly inventive collection called A PERFECT VACUUM, in which every piece was a review of some nonexistent book. VACUUM gets my unequivocal recommendation as a book which is essential for any sf library (or any library at all!)... ONE HUMAN MINUTE is a collection of three more of these 'reviews'. The title piece is about a book which is even more comprehensive than such best-sellers as THE BOOK OF LISTS or THE GUINNESS BOOK OF WORLD RECORDS: it describes what every member of the human race is doing during the period of one minute. You learn how many people die per minute from police torture, and how many at the hands of those without government authorization; what the normal curve of tortures is over sixty seconds and their geographic distribution; what instruments are used in this unit of time, again with a breakdown into parts of the world and then by nation. You learn that when you take your dog for a walk, or while you are looking for your slippers, talking to your wife, falling asleep, or reading the paper, a thousand other people are howling and twisting in agony every consecutive minute of every twenty-four hours, day and night, every week, month, and year. You will not hear their cries but you will know that it is continual, because the statistics prove it. If you were to know what every human being was doing during any given minute on this planet, what would happen to your opinion of human beings? The next piece, 'The Upside-Down Evolution', reviews a military history of the 21st century and we discover that the next trend in weapons development will abandon the 'gigantomania' of current systems and will concentrate instead on microscopic self-guiding weapons which spread like diseases. What happens when people finally become completely irrelevant to warfare? The last 'review', 'The World As Cataclysm', attacks the view popular in sf that the existence of life on Earth implies the existence of life on other planets. Lem maintains that we may be the only life-bearing planet in the universe. Reading this piece definitely shook up some cherished assumptions of mine... This is Lem at the top of his form, and as such this work is in my opinion so far superior to what normally passes as sf that I almost have to wonder how anyone could treat 'normal' sf seriously. After saying something as contentious as this, I suppose I shouldn't qualify it by saying that there are good sf stories and there are good stories that are sf, but that's how I feel. Lem excels at the former, while I think Kim Stanley Robinson is superb at the latter. I think both kinds are worthy of attention. In Robinson's best stories, the sf is an integral part but it isn't the whole point -- instead, it's used creatively to write a tale about human beings that wouldn't be as interesting without the fantastic element. Robinson's collection THE PLANET ON THE TABLE contains some excellent examples of this kind of story. 'The Disguise' is about an actor in a new form of drama in which a persona is downloaded into the player and the lines and actions arise 'naturally' from the player's subconscious. When the actor thinks he detects a murderer among the other members of the troupe, is it true, or is it part of the play? 'The Lucky Strike' is about a slightly different World War II from our own, where a different crew must fly the atomic bomb to Hiroshima. When I read it, I was right there, looking through the bombsight with the bombardier, and was forced to ask: Did it really have to happen the way it happened? This is one of the most powerful sf stories I've read in ages... 'Black Air' is about a slightly different Spanish Armada, in which a child shanghaied aboard a fighting ship is visited by an angel during an attack. It's really impossible to describe the impact of the story in a simple precis -- you must read it to find out that it is violently original and moving and beautifully written. The other stories are uniformly good too; if you read and liked any of the three stories I've mentioned, you'll be more than pleased with the entire collection. My only complaint is that the book doesn't include the long novella 'Green Mars', another excellent story which came out last year. I read all three of the stories in TALES OF THE QUINTANA ROO by James Tiptree, Jr, when they appeared in magazines back in '81 and '82. So why did I buy the book? Well, for one thing, the book is another excellent example of publishing art from Arkham House, with some striking illustrations by Glennray Tutor which enhance the spooky mood of the stories. And yes, I think the stories are good enough on their own to justify the purchase of this volume. I certainly enjoyed re-reading them... Each story is a tale within a tale, a popular style of long ago which works wonderfully in Tiptree/Sheldon's gentle hands. All are set in the territory of the Quintana Roo on the east side of the Yucatan peninsula, and all capture a certain mystery which pervades the native culture and its ancient artifacts. 'What Came Ashore at Lirios' is the tale of an American man who seems to have wandered the coast of the Yucatan for ages, who once had an incredible meeting on a beach which he may never find again. 'The Boy Who Waterskied to Forever' is about a young Mayan man who ambitiously decided to be the first to waterski from Cozumel to the mainland, and didn't expect what he found when he arrived there. In 'Beyond the Dead Reef' we meet an eccentric Briton who is emphatic that the narrator should not go diving in a certain spot near Cozumel despite a guide's recommendations... These stories are a bit formulaic and certainly have no major technical innovations, but they have vivid writing, interesting characters and just the right touch of the fantastic. Not bad for $11.95 in hardcover. Cozumel is a nice place to be when the pogonip rolls over Salt Lake. Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@cs.utah.edu 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 87 20:29:32 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Re: Man-Machine Interfaces. To: OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU From: Peter G. Trei >PS: I must mention _Marooned_in_Realtime_ the sequel to >_The_Peace_War_ by Vernor Vinge, which inspired me to enter this >submission. If you liked that, you will love _Tom_Paine_Maru_ by L. Neil Smith, another story which includes a mind-computer interface. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 87 19:44:43 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: A book on the Golem A while back I posted a survey of books, plays, etc. on the subject of the legend of the Golem. For those interested, I have found a similar book on sale (inexpensively) from Barnes and Noble. I haven't read it yet, but for those interested it is THE GOLEM REMEMBERED 1909-1980 by Arnold L. Goldsmith. It is published by Wayne State University Press and also is a survey of the subject, somewhat more complete than mine. Mark Leeper ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Jan 87 0915-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #15 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 13 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 15 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (14 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jan 87 11:06:52 EST From: weltyc%cieunix@CSV.RPI.EDU (Christopher A. Welty) To: DAC%CUNYVMS1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Star Trek Movie Poll I liked STII the best. I found it much more entertaining. I don't view Star Trek as a comedy, although little humorous lines can add to a story. STII had the most superior character development of any movie or any episode (even Amok Time and Naked Time), and it showed Kirk at his tactical best ("You are an EXCELLENT tactician, Captain" said Khan to Kirk in Space Seed). It blows the others away... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 87 14:09:54 PST From: dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (David Platt) To: saint@yaleads.bitnet Subject: Added material in Star Trek movies When I saw ST I on network TV several years ago, I noticed quite a bit of material that had not been in the version shown in the theatres. Some of the material was fairly minor (e.g. Uhura commenting to a crewmember that Kirk's having taken command of the Enterprise "may have just doubled" the ship's chances for survival). Other material was more significant; there was a substantial amount of restored dialog between Spock, Kirk, and McCoy concerning Spock's motives for his encounter with V'ger and impact that this encounter had on him ("I wait for V'ger as I would wait for a brother... for as V'ger is now, so I was when I boarded the Enterprise."). I think that the network-TV version may have shortened the tedious Enterprise fly-by and the V'ger overflight, but I'm not sure about that. A friend of mine purchased ST I on laser-videodisk, and received the TV version rather than the theatre version... it's about 10 minutes longer, I think. I imagine (but am not sure) that the videotape version may also have the restored material. The TV airing of ST II (which I feel was the best of the batch) also contained some restored material, although not as much as ST I. The part I remember in particular is that the theater version had very little mention of Scotty's nephew, and left viewers somewhat in the dark as to why Scotty was so broken up by Peter's death. The bits involving young Peter were restored in the TV version, and I'd imagine that they're probably also in the videotape version. In both ST I and ST II, the restored material matched up almost exactly with the novelizations, which were apparently written from the screenplays before the final editing was performed. The studio seems to be taking the point-of-view that viewers are more likely to sit through a longer version at home (TV/video) than would be the case if they were watching the same story in a theatre. It's also possible that there's some pressure from the theatre chains, to keep "popular" movies below a certain length or to "tighten them up" in order to keep the audience's attention. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 06 Jan 1987 13:47 CST From: Subject: Star Trek IV -- Whalesong I just want to state that sound CANNOT travel through a vacuum. It is impossible. Sound needs a medium of some sort to travel through, water, or air. So you must conclude that the Whalesong picked up by the Bounty, i.e. the Bird of Prey that the "valiant" crew was in, was not transmitted as sound. Frankly, I don't care how it was picked up. But, for this to be discussed, the laws of science that we now accept must, in some way must be accounted for. Ed Lorden ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 87 08:57 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Star Trek IV Cc: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >Some ways the movie could have been made more interesting: Having a >major character get killed off, so that some sacrifice was involved >in saving the Earth (Chekov would be ideal.) Good Grief! Haven't we had ENOUGH of killing off in every movie? Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jan 87 12:11 EST From: WELTY RICHARD P Subject: A note on naval ship naming conventions There has been much discussion on the ship classes and names with respect to Star Trek lately, and considerable confusion about naming conventions. As Star Trek vaguely tended to follow traditional Naval customs, I thought I would toss in my two cents worth ... Whenever a new class of ships is built, one of the earliest ships built is designated the `Name Ship' of the class. Thus, the Porter class destroyers (1933 program) were named after the USS Porter, When the Porter was lost in the Battle of Santa Cruz Islands in October of 1942, the class was redesignated the Selfridge class, after the USS Selfridge. A new destroyer of the Improved Fletcher Class (1942 program) was then named the USS Porter. If the Porter class had not been redesignated, much confusion would have been created by the reuse of the name. When ships are built, they are assigned numbers (sometimes called pendent numbers). Each type of ship has its own series of pendent numbers (type being something like battleship, heavy cruiser, light cruiser, destroyer, destroyer escort, etc). These numbers are *not* reused for later ships. Thus, the pendent numbers for American Destroyers towards the end of WWII were in the 900's. Numbers for American Battleships are in the 60's ... I hope that this information is of some use -- of course, clearly Star Trek did not adhere strictly to this usage, but tradition is strong in Naval circles, and some of this will live on forever ... Rich Welty welty@ge-crd.arpa P.S. Sometime ago, I started doing some research on the ships that have carried the name Enterprise in the U.S. Navy. If anyone is interested in seeing this stuff, send me mail. If there is enough interest, I can enter it and mail it out, or possible submit it to SF-LOVERS if it is deemed of sufficient interest to the SF audience. ------------------------------ Date: 07 January 87 13:20 EST From: FQOJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: (copy) All things Vulcan This posting is a querry for all those Star Trek fans on the net who, like myself, are just a bit tired of the ST IV rantings and want to move on to other topics. Does anyone know a reason why all Vulcan male names begin with an "S" and all female with a "T" ? For those who haven't bothered to touch any of the paperbacks, consider T'Pau and T'Pring versus Spock, Sarek, and Ston (but the trend IS continued in the flood of novels on the shelves). Also, has anyone ever seen a book entitled _ENTERPRISE_? It was suposedly the "first" television script that Gene R. concocted, but later abandoned. Any info on either topic would be most welcome. The aspect that adds most to the aura of Star Trek is the development of the Vulcan culture. Having aliens around is basic to most SF but rarely do authors or screenwriters have the skill and imagination to fully develop the alien mystique. Trekies got a great episode in "AMOK TIME" because it was an imaginitive look at what goes on behind Spok's veil of logic, and the interaction of his most human friend James T. enhances the complimentary pair even more. The Vulcan world is only given cameo appearances in the movie versions of ST, but perhaps one of the script writers will make a better attempt in ST V! Even better, how about a delve into the dark world of the Klingons! Even the Romulans had their turn in "BALANCE OF TERROR". Just food for thoughts fellow Trekkies... Roger Jagoda Chemical Engineering Dept. Cornell University FQOJ@CORNELLA ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 87 14:37:24 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: Re: (copy) All things Vulcan FQOJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: > Does anyone know a reason why all Vulcan male names begin with an >"S" and all female with a "T" ? For those who haven't bothered to >touch any of the paperbacks, consider T'Pau and T'Pring versus >Spock, Sarek, and Ston (but the trend IS continued in the flood of >novels on the shelves). I suggest you take a look at THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, beginning at page 274 for a series of memos between (make that among) Gene Roddenberry, Bob Justman, Herb Solow, John DF Black,... This is ( I think ) the origin of all Vulcan male names starting with S. I assume the T'XXX format for womens names was invented by the late Ted Sturgeon when he wrote Amok Time. >Also, has anyone ever seen a book entitled _ENTERPRISE_? It was >suposedly the "first" television script that Gene R. concocted, but >later abandoned. Any info on either topic would be most welcome. _ENTERPRISE_ is a recent novel by Vonda McIntyre with her ideas on the Big E's first trip with the current bridge crew. It's a nice book, although I don't agree with everything in it. It's not based on any "missing" Roddenberry script. The Star Trek comic also did a first voyage, it's also worth reading. Finally Roger, there are those out there who take "Treekkie" as an insult. I don't care, but be careful when you use it. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jan 87 11:47:21 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald(Sarek) Subject: STTMP/Reverend Jim Paramount HAS released the version of STTMP on videotape with the missing footage. The box says SPECIAL EXTENDED VERSION, or something like that. Has anybody noticed that none of the scenes on the cover of the WOK tape was actually in the movie? Also, at the BSTA Platinum Anniversary con, Takei said that Lloyd had trouble figuring out that he was supposed to speak into the communicator. He kept flinging his arms apart and saying "Beam me up!" I mean, can't you just see Jim doing that?? st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jan 87 13:11 EST From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: anti-Star Trek? This is in response to a message from Kathy Godfrey in (I think) #8: To each his own. Call me childish, unscientific, etc., but I like Star Trek. You must admit that a lot of it might have seemed plausible in the sixties (e.g. "humano- centrism" {or whatever the official term is for assuming that most lifeforms look/speak like us}--also, remember that the Enterprise crew have "universal translators" which will translate any known language to "California-native accented English"; FTL/warp drive (explained through "warp space", external to the real universe); time travel (someone, I think, has already ripped on this subject); etc.). Certainly it is not as "sophisticated" as most "diehard" SF readers would like, in terms of logicality and scientific consistency, but SF requires a certain amount of "suspension of disbelief" in any case. {Let me guess: you don't like fantasy books, do you?} nj borrowing c78kck@irishmvs.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 87 06:27:56 GMT From: hadron!jsdy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Joseph S. D. Yao) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV mauney@ece-csc.UUCP (Jon Mauney) writes: >bright@dataio.UUCP (Walter Bright) writes: >>Scotty asks the plastics man to figure out how thick the plastic >>would have to be to withstand the pressure of 60,000(?) gallons of >>water ... man says 'that's easy, 6 inches'. > >but last week he made a 1-inch-thick panel for a 10,000 gallon >tank, so he figures 6 inches must be good for 60,000 gallons. The answer is evident. One of two conditions holds. Either Scott fortunately hit on exactly the person who had built the transport tank for the whales to the North Pacific, so he knows the answer right off, Or the engineer is a Usenet member, since membership seems to confer so many with the feeling that they can conjure instant answers to anything. Joe Yao hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP} jsdy@hadron.COM (not yet domainised) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 87 12:39 ??? From: KGEISEL%CGIVC%cgi.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: Star Trek Time Travel > There are two known methods of going into the past in Star Trek: > The Guardian and the old Square-Dance-Around-A-Star method. There is a third method, although I don't remember exactly what they called it or which episode it was in, although I THINK it might have been where some virus or something got on board which was making everyone go crazy. They were in a decaying orbit and someone had shut off the engines. Apparently, the engines need about 30 minutes or so to start back up. They had less time than that before they burned up so Spock tried an unproven theory to cold start the antimatter reactor, which might result in implosion. After they did, (and it worked of course) Sulu noticed the chronometer running backwards. Kirk logged it as a good way to get to other times... Kurt Geisel Carnegie Group Inc. AI Lab ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 87 08:56 CDT From: <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET> Subject: Shakespeare in Star Trek >I believe that Kirk was stationed on the planet in question very >early in his career, not actually living there at the time. You'll >probably need to find an uncut version of the episode to check on >this. This is correct. Why did the question arise?? (I'm new to the list.) Actually, this was a great episode, particularly for Shakespeare fans. Eleanor Evans ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 87 08:54 CDT From: <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET> Subject: Star Trek >I have spent the last month and a half watching people on SF-Lovers >bicker over things that are fictional as though it were fact. I go >to movies to ENJOY myself. For many people (myself included), Star Trek is a real world, planned out in infinite detail, and frequently much better understood than the one we find ourselves in now. Star Trek is a symbol of hope - hope for a better future, even for a future at all. It reminds us sometimes that our little screw-ups now don't really matter so much as we think they do when we're going through them, and gives us something to work toward, to dream for. I just recently graduated and took my first job - in a big city, far away from home and friends. Although I was looking forward to it, the whole experience was still quite unsettling. About two months before I actually moved, Star Trek began to show up in my dreams - I was living and working with the crew of the Enterprise. Personally, this was much better than dreaming about falling off of cliffs, etc., which a lot of my friends said they were doing. The Star Trek world was one I knew well - I knew how the people were going to react, even what they would say. It was somehow comforting to picture myself in a world that different, and yet that easy to deal with. That feeling really helped me deal with the stress of all the new experiences I was going through then. This may sound a little weird - has anyone else had this feeling? Eleanor Evans ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 87 08:55 CDT From: <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET> Subject: ST time travel >When the Bounty came back to the future from the 20th century, for >a few minutes, they were there before they had left. This could >lead to interesting occurences, if explored further... As I recall, there was one Star Trek episode in which the Enterprise ended up going back in time three days. They were trying to escape the gravitational pull of some planet (that, or the planet was about to go boom, I forget which). Eventually, Spock mixed matter and antimatter, and they ended up going back in time. Does anyone recall this episode? Eleanor Evans ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Jan 87 0929-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #16 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 13 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 16 Today's Topics: Books - Benford & Bester & Donaldson & Friedberg & Hogan & Typos & Multigeneration Ship & First D&D Story ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Jan 87 18:00:41 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: HITLER VICTORIOUS ed. by Gregory Benford HITLER VICTORIOUS edited by Gregory Benford and Martin H. Greenberg Garland, 1986 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Someone who knew my predilections gave me this anthology for Hanukkah. Not one, but eleven "what if Germany had won the war?" stories! I immediately set aside the other book I was reading and dove in. Benford begins by giving a good introduction to the alternate history sub-genre of science fiction (or fantasy, if you prefer). Spinrad's discussion of the fascination of the Nazis is worth reading, though I quibble with his inclusion of his own THE IRON DREAM as one of the three major "Nazi-victory" novels (the other two he lists are Dick's THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE and Sarban's THE SOUND OF HIS HORN). I would claim that Deighton's SS-GB is at least as widely known and Mackie's AN ENGLISHMAN'S CASTLE is notable for having been made into a three-part mini-series in Britain which played on PBS here. But the rest of his article is thought- provoking and recommended. The stories themselves were published between 1957 and 1986, the latest being three times as far removed from World War II as the earliest. This means that the earliest were written by people who remembered first-hand how Nazism arose and spread, while the latest have the benefit of historical perspective and continuing revelations to build upon. The question one usually asks about alternate histories is "Is it believable?" While that's still a valid question, the very topic of these stories reminds us that reality may not be believable. When people first heard about the concentration camps, they refused to believe the stories because, they said, no one could do such things. Even today, there are those who deny the Holocaust existed. So when I say something in a story in this anthology is not believable, in the back of my mind is the thought that, in spite of that, it COULD happen. The first story, C. M. Kornbluth's "Two Dooms," is also one of the oldest. That it was a story of the Fifties is obvious, yet it still carries a strong message. (Readers should remember that most of those working on the Manhattan Project expected the Bomb to be used against the Germans rather than the Japanese.) Hilary Bailey's "The Fall of Frenchy Steiner" was a good portrayal of England after defeat, but the story didn't convince me and only the main character seemed fleshed out enough to be three-dimensional. The setting makes it worth reading, reminiscent of the recent version of the film 1984 in its drabness and general decay. "Through Road No Whither" by Greg Bear suffers from having its ending telegraphed, but even without this problem would be a minor piece. "Weihnachtsabend" by Keith Roberts is reminiscent of Sarban's THE SOUND OF HIS HORN. I personally found myself confused in spots since Roberts has his characters, and indeed his narrator, lapse into German quite often. I don't understand German. Again, I found parts of this story unbelievable, but in this anthology, that criticism can only be made with the side-note that much of history was also unbelievable. David Brin's "Thor Meets Captain America" is (in spite of the sound of its title) a serious story. Much has been made of the Nazis' interest in the occult (Spielberg, for example, has made millions) and Brin looks at what would happen if the interest had borne fruit. "Moon of Ice" by Brad Linaweaver tries to show that National Socialism carried within it the seeds of its own defeat, and whether this defeat came through Germany losing the war, or later, after Germany won the war, it was inevitable. This could be either a trite or an interesting idea, and Linaweaver doesn't do all that could be done to make it interesting. The result is a conclusion that seems shallow. Sheila Finch's "Reichs-Peace" is a tale of Romany psychic powers. It's also a tale of deception, and the deception is even harder to believe than the psychic powers, which is a pity. This could have been a much better story had the deceptions been thought out a little bit more. Finch also wrote INFINITY'S WEB, a novel dealing with alternate worlds. This is better. In "Never Meet Again" by Algis Budrys, Professor Jochim Kempfer is dissatisfied with his personal universe in a world of "Hitler victorious." But he discovers that a change of universe doesn't solve all his problems-- merely changes them. A well-done story that makes a point worth noting, particularly to all those who say, "If only I had done thus-or-so differently." Not all change is for the better. Just as "Through Road No Whither" is more a fantasy piece than science fiction, Howard Goldsmith's "Do Ye Hear the Children Weeping?" is more a horror story, and not a bad one. Tom Shippey's "Enemy Transmissions" shows us a Dreamer (the occult Reich again?). He dreams of things that were--like the Unification War. He also dreams of things that were not--like some war or battle or something in the Falklands. At least he thinks that's what it is, but it makes no sense. Why would anyone fight a war in the Falklands? (Good question? Anyone want to volunteer an answer?) "Valhalla" by Gregory Benford seems to be an attempt to leave the reader with a satisfactory ending to this anthology. The philosophy behind it, and its attitude toward retribution (read, "revenge"), however, strikes me as exactly what caused the problem in the first place, with France, Britain, and the United States determined to have their revenge on Germany and thereby laying the groundwork for Hitler's rise to power. Maybe the positive attitude toward revenge that I see in the story wasn't Benford's intention, but that's how I read it. Of course, no one seems to have written the story I want to read: what if Nazism had never come to power, World War II had never happened, and everything was much WORSE because of this. (As I mentioned above, everyone seems to assume that things would be better.) Jerry Yulsman's ELLEANDER MORNING hints at this, but I think the reason no one has tried this is two- fold: no one wants to be a position that seems to defend the Nazis, and no one wants to try to imagine something WORSE than the Holocaust. There are limits, apparently, to what even the most down-beat of authors will do. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 87 20:12:28 GMT From: cmcl2!chenj@rutgers.rutgers.edu (James M.C. Chen) Subject: Alfred Bester > I need help locating a science fiction short story I read > a long time ago. I think it was part of an anthology, but I'm not > positive. I have no idea who wrote it, what the title was, or > anything except the story itself. > > I can't remember much of the story, but I do remember some > of the dreams which were parodies on traditional science fiction > stories. In one, our hero is the last man on the Earth running > around a post-nuclear war city looking for relief from an > excruciating toothache. He finds the last woman on the Earth. He > asks if she's a dentist. She says no, she's something more > important, she is the last woman and they are the last couple on > Earth and therefore must procreate to repopulate the planet. He > asks to borrow her gun, tells her "I wish you were a dentist", and > shoots himself. The general consensus on the identity of my story is that it was written by Alfred Bester and called 5,271,009. Everyone agreed it was a number, but only two people agreed on the specific number. I haven't found the story yet so I'm not positive on the exact value, but it must be close. My thanks to the answermen. Now I have another query. It should probably go to rec.arts.books, but I'll ask here anyway. Who was the author for the stories of detective Solar Pons? My thanks in advance. Jimmy Chen chenj@cmcl2 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 87 20:01:43 GMT From: astroatc!philm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Phil Mason) Subject: Re: Donaldson alle@ihlpl.UUCP (Marguerite Czajka) writes: >Through my book club, I got "Mirror of Her Dreams" by Stephen >Donaldson. I think I have the author right! - anyway the one who >wrote the Thomas Covenant books. Since I enjoyed the TC books, I >thought I'd read this one but I was surprised to find out it >doesn't end - it says it's continued in "A Man Rides Through". >Does anyone know if this second book is out? I couldn't find it >the bookstores I went to, and the book club doesn't list it. I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing. Yes, there were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found the climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get there. Anyone else out there feel the same? Or does the ending appeal to most everybody? I don't know if I could stand another Donaldson series; especially if it culminates 5 books later! ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 87 22:59:07 GMT From: chinet!rissa@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Bibliographic request From: Allan C. Wechsler >Please, can anyone give me a reference for "The Wayward Cravat"? >Also, does anyone know of anything else Ms. Friedberg has written? The only place I've seen "The Wayward Cravat" is in the anthology "Tomorrows Children", edited by the good doctor Asimov back in 1966. Published by Doubleday. (Gaak ... 1966 ... 20 years ago ... I must be getting old). I got it out and re-read it - it was a good story. Garret ihnp4!chinet!rissa ------------------------------ Date: 12 January 1987, 09:37:53 EST From: "Richard P. King" Subject: The Two Faces of Tomorrow, by James P. Hogan I just finished this. I know it may be old news (its copyright date is 1979) but it upset me so much that I had to write about it. James Hogan's novel The Two Faces of Tomorrow is 390 pages long. By page 16 he has revealed a plot twist which establishes the basic premise for the rest of the book: half-smart computers can devise novel ways to obey commands, but they may turn out to be flawed by oversights. Or, if you like, a little knowledge can be dangerous. The problem is that this had become obvious by page 8, so I had to spend 8 pages just waiting for him to drop the other shoe. Worse yet, it was also clear that the entire premise of the novel was that they had been able to build a world-wide computer system which controlled transportation, communication, construction, etc., yet it wasn't smart enough to recognize humans and understand their frailties. Apparently, if you gave the system a command like "remove this rock formation" and forgot to say "and avoid killing any of the people near it", then the system just might decide to use a bomb rather than a bulldozer. Somehow these supposedly brilliant designers hadn't even heard of Asimov's first law of robotics, or its equivalent in that universe. Nor, once they decided they needed it, could they figure out how to build a system which obeyed it. By page 108 Hogan has revealed the specific nature of the conflict which is to arise from this premise: an intelligent computer system is to be attacked to see if its responses are hostile and if men can overcome it despite that hostility, and, if so, how. Unfortunately, the what (in general), the why, and the how (almost precisely), can all be deduced when page 62 has been reached, so the remaining 328 pages have to stand on other merits than cleverness (let alone intelligence) of plot. That leaves characters, prose & conceptualizations as sources of entertainment. But the characters are straight from the cookie cutter, the prose is flat, and the conceptualizations are either mundane or half-witted. Tie all of that up with a real "idiot plot" and the result is the worst novel I have read in many years. By way of example, consider the following. In the lab they have the prototype for the system. It isn't very smart, but it's learning. To help it along, and to understand its motives for certain acts, they converse with it, either by terminal or voice. Then they build the big system and the trouble starts. Not once, through the rest of the story, does anyone converse with the system. Near the end we even get 2 of the original designers of the thing standing in front of a terminal, wondering how to get its attention, how to communicate with it. They ended up waving their hands in front of a TV camera and pointing to drawings, hoping that the system would catch on! There were other idiocies of a similar nature, but this is the one that made me crazy. And I think I've made my point, which is that this is a bad novel, based on a half-witted premise, and with a plot to match. Please believe me when I tell you that it was only after finishing the book, and long after these opinions had formed, that I read that Hogan is an employee of DEC. The opinions expressed here are purely my own, and were developed independently of any consideration of the relationship between my employer and his. Richard ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 87 17:48:19 GMT From: mcnc!jeff@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jeffrey Copeland) Subject: Re: Typos in SF Books From: William Martin >The John Varley BLUE CHAMPAGNE book I posted a recommendation of a >couple days ago, even though put out by a small press, was plagued >with typos. ...One aspect of that book I had meant to mention was >that the typeface was wretched. I don't know enough about >typography to say just what was wrong with it, or why I hated it, >but it looked quite odd. Well, I trotted 'round to the library to look at a copy. At a guess based on the typefaces and the fuzziness, it was "typeset" using the IBM 240 dot-per-inch laserprinter. I wouldn't have tried that myself, and I'm surprised Dark Harvest did. Not only were the typos annoying (e.g. "powerfull" "prepaired"), but it looked like they didn't even proof the galleys, leaving multiple copies of paragraphs, and bad justification. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 87 09:52:37 pst From: king@kestrel.ARPA (Dick King) Subject: Multigeneration ship stories I hereby nominate my candidate for the first multigeneration ship story. EXODUS, from the Bible. It features 1> a trek through a surrounding hostile enough to kill people who leave the "ship". 2> multigeneration duration [nobody from the original Exodus survived] 3> they forgot their destiny at least once 4> the highest technology of the day was used 5> the crew was sufficiently large to prevent genetic drift. I will concede the distinction that unlike typical multigeneration ships, this "ship" could have split in two with both halves surviving; it didn't happen, that possibility had significant impact on the story line. Comments? dick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 87 09:55:16 pst From: king@kestrel.ARPA (Dick King) Subject: While I'm commenting on firsts... I hereby nominate Wizard of Oz as the first Dungeons and Dragons, or at least the most widely known early one. It includes 1> characters with magical powers 2> problems whose solutions have a D&D flavor 3> Journeys, goals and artifacts with a D&D flavor. Comments? dick ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jan 87 0824-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #17 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 14 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 17 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley (4 msgs) & Brust (2 msgs) & Chalker & Donaldson & Gerrold & MacLeod & Walker & Generation Ships ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 11:21:15 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) To: jslove@mit-multics.arpa Subject: Darkover "feminism" Bradley's attitude toward modern feminism varies widely through her books; I'm told there was quite a fuss in feminist circles over DARKOVER LANDFALL, especially the scene in which one of the ship's officers is told -"No, you can't have an abortion; this is a viable colony and we'll need all the kids we can get."- (note -""- and \don't/ try to argue against this philosophy without original quote and context). I don't think Peter Haldane was ever a 2.5-dimensional character, and I certainly don't think he is singled out for militant feminist abuse in THENDARA HOUSE. In THE SHATTERED CHAIN we see him isolated from what Bradley chooses to show as an distinctly male-oriented Terran culture/outpost at Thendara (I don't know whether she thought that future Terrans, mimicking the contemporary US in its diplomatic superficiality, would describe Darkover as a male-dominated world in a way that would attract male-dominant types (in other books it's said that very few people \ask/ to be posted to Darkover)); even in isolation he acts swinishly (note the scene between him and his ex-wife in the Ardais castle on midwinter night), so his behavior in Thendara isn't implausible---especially considering the swinish behavior of his bosses. I can't speak from direct experience about the plausibility of the various sessions at the guildhouse, but I would expect some of them to be less than pleasing to the genital warriors you describe; Bradley specifically denies any implicit female \superiority/. In THENDARA HOUSE she deals directly with what was only glanced at in several other books: the attempt of a group of people (who happen to be female) to break out of \\all// of the preconceptions of roles, abilities, limitations, and societal oughts. I am not one of the hypothetical ultra-feminist males who bewails his guilt over the supposed universal conspiracy to suppress women; even so, I didn't find TH unreasonably assaultive. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 15:54:01 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: "SWORD OF ALDONES isn't so bad" One note: this is virtually the only Bradley book with any sort of down ending. Bradley has had a real problem in the last 20 years writing a story in which not everything comes out for the best for the leading good guys. (The death of Jaelle in CITY OF SORCERY is the only thing I can point to, and one can argue that that was set up; in HERITAGE OF HASTUR, Lew's lover (Marjorie?) \had/ to die because with her alive SWORD OF ALDONES, to which HoH was a deliberate prequel, would have collapsed). In the rewrite (SHARRA'S EXILE) Bradley abandoned the basis of SoA (a Rilke (?) quote to the affect that the stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home strange); the only good guy who's stuck at the end is Regis, and he's resigned to merely being de-facto King instead of traveling to other worlds. I don't have a special brief for dark tragedies, but Bradley's endings seem to have been getting more and more painless---almost analogous to the requirement that commercial STAR TREK novels, like TV shows, not leave the characters altered in any way. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 17:10 EST From: "J. Spencer Love" Subject: Re: Darkover "feminism" To: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) I didn't say that MZB thought that females were superior. I only felt that she made males out to be the enemy and invented straw characters for the sake of argument. Do you remember "don't trust anyone over 30"? I also didn't claim that Peter Haldane was a saint. His character was clearly enough drawn that it was clear that the Terran woman had reason for leaving him. It was pointed out to me that the Darkovan woman might well have grown to know him well enough to share the Terran woman's view. This would account for what I perceived as implausibly changed perspective. I would be willing to accept such an explanation if I found any evidence for it in the story. I didn't. I am not using names because I have forgotten them (thanks for confirming Peter's). I don't plan to defend my opinion to the point of rereading Thendara House. I did perceive a drastic break in continuity between the stories. Fiction describing -- in detail -- the changing perceptions of lovers or spouses for each other can be very powerful. That particular transformation would might have been depressing to read, if it were well portrayed. I would be very impressed with such a story. Each of us has areas where we are unwilling to suspend disbelief. I was rather impressed with The Shattered Chain. My credulity was overstrained by the sequel. Select your own size grain of thought regarding what my free advice is worth. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 17:35 PST From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: MZB & feminism Recent postings, stories heard from friends, and an interview* in Starlog from its early years, not to mention the anti-male slant in recent books, have made me wonder why I'm still reading the Darkover books. Shoshanna Green's account of the "Free Amazon meeting" tallies with an account of a ritual led by MZB wherein the horrors of what has been dealt to women and the earth were dwelt on in excruciating detail, without the leaven of "the brightness we're aiming for". We have no future if we don't know our history, but the Darkover stories recently just say "this is how the world should not be". That's the only complaint I have about Ruth Barrett & Cyntia Smith's song "Imagine the World"-- images are given as negative and to be avoided, but that just reinforces the unwanted images. No positive image is provided, just the exhortation to "Imagine the world as you want it to be". If you take away something, you must replace it, otherwise it's just like non-constructive criticism. Marina Fournier Arpa: *The interview I refer to was more of "Famous Authors' Opinions on subject X". I don't remember the question very well, but it might have been something having to do with women in the future and what the current "enlightening movement" will have done for humans at that time. Her response was something close to "I don't know if women deserve to be liberated. I see women in my daughter's generation wearing long skirts, using lots of makeup and blow driers. You'd think they'd learn". At the time I remember thinking sarcastically, my male roommates use blowdriers and I don't, maybe if I did I'd start earning the kind of money they were? When *I* wear long skirts, I can hitch them up out of my way to run, and never wear hobble skirts, which is what she was possibly thinking of when she made that statement. I certainly am not known for frequent use of makeup...I can't see that finely in the morning. ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Teckla [Spoiler Warning: TECKLA and JHEREG] Date: 10 Jan 87 04:34:36 GMT Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes: >Teckla was different. We are treated to an excruciating view of the >poor and opressed, a sudden total alteration of character in Cawti >(who a few weeks ago in story time was relishing the chance to do >an assasination to help Vlad out, and who now is a veritable angel >of mercy spouting "power of the armed masses" rhetoric), a >situation where Vlad tries lots of stuff with never better than >extremely mixed results. Vlad ends up hating himself and half the >other characters while accomplishing virtually nothing except >setting himself up for MUCH more pain in a later book. Is this fun? While the book would make sense later in the series, the part about Cawti was what threw me. Especially since I have just followed reading TECKLA with re-reading JHEREG. While I admit that JHEREG had a set-up for Vlad to begin to doubt his own motives, bringing Cawti into it was just plain wrong; in JHEREG, Cawti does "work", but less than a week later she is suddenly a different personality altogether. This is consistency? >Having made my tirade, an aside for those who enjoy speculating >about our favorite assassin. Is Spellbreaker a Great Weapon, as I >now begin to suspect? I began to suspect that when Vlad said that Sethra had told him it was important for him to name Spellbreaker, on top of its rather interesting antics... On the other hand: a Great Weapon should have acted like Pathfinder did in JHEREG: it protected Aliera from a sorcerous attack in the tavern, when she wasn't paying attention. If Spellbreaker is a Great Weapon, why didn't it do the same for Vlad a few seconds later? (On the other hand: a Great Weapon it may be, but Godslayer it certainly isn't. And Pathfinder was some- thing special, even for a Great Weapon.) Brandon S. Allbery 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!tdi2!brandon +1 216 974 9210 before 10:15am or after 8:00 pm ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 01:07:25 GMT From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) Subject: Re: Teckla Regardless of how good the rest of the book is or isn't, (I haven't read it yet) I think that the Dragnet parody quote at the beginning qualifies as the most annoying thing I've seen an author do in quite some time. ray trent@csvax.caltech.edu rat@caltech.bitnet seismo!cit-vax!trent ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 05:17 EDT From: KROVETZ%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: Jack Chalker Does anyone know his address? I think it's somewhere in Maryland. Thanks, Bob ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 19:14:45 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: Donaldson [SPOILER for Covenant] philm@astroatc.UUCP (Phil Mason) writes: >I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing. Yes, there >were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found the >climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get there. >Anyone else out there feel the same? Or does the ending appeal to >most everybody? I enjoyed the series immensely (if "enjoyed" applies to a story like Thomas Covenant's). Covenant's problem with the White Gold power is much like Luke Skywalker's dilemma in using the offensive power of the Force - the after-effects of invoking the power could likely be far worse than the evil being fought with it. We really discover this in the third book and recognize that a confrontation is coming, in the second trilogy in the series. Throughout the first trilogy, I was "telling" Covenant to use his power to save The Land; to acknowledge the reality of The Land and his power therein. Throughout the second trilogy, I was as nervous about his power as he was. Those effects on my emotions kept me inside the story, and that's a major component of my enjoyment of any tale. Kris Stephens 408-746-6047 {whatever}!amdahl!krs Amdahl krs@amdahl.amdahl.com ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 03:33:21 GMT From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.edu (Colin Plumb) Subject: Re: David Gerrold myers@hobiecat.UUCP (Bob Myers) writes: >Does anybody know if there are any plans for mhorr of the Chtorr >books? (apologies to Anne McCaffrey). > >I have the first two, and it's been TWO YEARS since _A Day for >Damnation_ came out. > >I really enjoyed these a lot (and I liked the second one better), >and have been anxiously awaiting the next book, but have never >heard anything. I'm also waiting anxiously, but it's gonna be a while... Apparently, he switched publishers, and the new publisher wants to print the whole series (including the first two books), so it's in Gerrold's contract that he has to rewrite the first two books. (They can't be reprinted verbatim for funny legal reasons.) He's not very eager to do this. Thus, his lack of alacrity. BTW: Has anyone heard about _Janissaries_ III ? Much as I like Gerrold's Chtorr series, I like Janissaries better. (If anyone out there hasn't read the two books that are out, *do so*. They are *really* good.) Perhaps someone on BIX could drop Jerry Pournelle (jerryp) a hint that there are still people who read his *fiction*? Colin Plumb ccplumb@watnot.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 87 18:01:50 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: CURSE OF THE GIANT HOGWEED by C. MacLeod THE CURSE OF THE GIANT HOGWEED by Charlotte MacLeod Avon, 1986 (c1985) A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper From the cover, this sounded like a madcap mystery, possibly with some horrific touches, as three horticulturists attempt to control the giant hogweed that threatens Britain's hedgerows. Before the end of the first chapter, however, it had metamorphosized into a bizarre fantasy, complete with witches, druids, magic potions, dragons, damsels in distress, and the whole shebang. In many ways reminiscent of A CONNECTICUT YANKEE IN KING ARTHUR'S COURT, this novel shows how resourceful modern men can do quite nicely in the past--though this past is more like a fantasy-land that a real, historical past. The mystery, or at least the hogweed, gets side- tracked for most of the novel, though it crops up every now and again (as it were). Instead, somewhere around page 6, our characters walk into a Welsh bar and find themselves transported to the Wales of folklore. If this sounds like ALICE IN WONDERLAND or THE LION, THE WITCH, AND THE WARDROBE to you, don't worry--it sounds that way to the characters themselves. It may not be a classic like those novels, but it is thoroughly enjoyable. MacLeod has a dry wit and does understated humor very well (example: "The meeting was being held in one such place, among the lush green hills where England blends so delightfully into Wales and the sheep all begin bleating in Cymric as soon as you cross the border.") There seems to be a sub-genre starting up of fantasy spoofs: WIZARDS AND WARRIORS on television, Marvin Kaye's THE MAGIC UMBRELLA, Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's A BAROQUE FABLE, and now this in books. Let's hope subsequent ones are as good as this one. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ From: warlord@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 12:49:42 EST Subject: A question on a forgotten series Does anyone know whatever happened to a paperback series put out by Daw in the mid-late 70s called Magira, by Hugh Walker? I have the first three books and am very interested in acquiring the rest of the series, if it exists. The works were supposedly translated from German. The author claimed that the world of Magira was based on the first role-playing campaign ever developed (supposedly by some wargaming group in Europe in the 60s), if memory serves me right. Edison Wong warlord@teela.mit.edu warlord@mit-athena.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 87 18:21:03 EST From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: So someone finally noticed? (Generation Ships) >I seem to recall reading somewhere that UNIVERSE by Heinlein was >not the first such story. Someone else did one in the thirties or >forties, but his was so much better that it is his that everyone is >getting the idea from. Sort of like Asimov and robot stories. I think Murray Leinster did one of the first generation ship stories. I can't recall the title, but I believe it was collected in Asimov's _Before the Golden Age_ anthology. Ted Nolan ted@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jan 87 0840-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #18 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 14 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 18 Today's Topics: Books - Benford & Hogan (3 msgs) & Solar Pons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Jan 87 21:04:44 GMT From: kontron!cramer@rutgers.edu (Clayton Cramer) Subject: Re: HITLER VICTORIOUS ed. by Gregory Benford > The question one usually asks about alternate histories is > "Is it believable?" While that's still a valid question, the very > topic of these stories reminds us that reality may not be > believable. When people first heard about the concentration > camps, they refused to believe the stories because, they said, no > one could do such things. Let me mention another reason that when reports of the concentration camps first came out no one believed them: British propagandists during World War I had inflamed American public opinion by reports of German soldiers cutting off the hands of Belgian children. After World War I, there didn't seem to be either handless children or handless corpses in Belgium. My father's first reaction (apparently a pretty common one) to the World War II rumors was: more British propaganda. Clayton E. Cramer ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 18:50:01 GMT From: netxcom!ewiles@rutgers.edu (Edwin Wiles) Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow (SPOILERS!) Yes, you're entitled to your opinions, just as I am entitled to do my best to shoot holes in them! BTW, please remember to post spoiler warnings in future messages. Some people might not want to read your message when you give way the entire plot. RPK@IBM.COM writes: >James Hogan's novel The Two Faces of Tomorrow is 390 pages long. >By page 16 he has revealed a plot twist which establishes the basic >premise for the rest of the book: half-smart computers can devise >novel ways to obey commands, but they may turn out to be flawed by >oversights. True. >The problem is that this had become obvious by page 8, so I had to >spend 8 pages just waiting for him to drop the other shoe. It's been a short while since I read the book, but I don't remember it becoming obvious at that point, or even by page 16 where the computer does use missles to accomplish the removal of a small hill. >Worse yet, it was also clear that the entire premise of the novel >was that they had been able to build a world-wide computer system >which controlled transportation, communication, construction, etc., >yet it wasn't smart enough to recognize humans and understand their >frailties. Apparently, if you gave the system a command like >"remove this rock formation" and forgot to say "and avoid killing >any of the people near it", then the system just might decide to >use a bomb rather than a bulldozer. Somehow these supposedly >brilliant designers hadn't even heard of Asimov's first law of >robotics, or its equivalent in that universe. Nor, once they >decided they needed it, could they figure out how to build a system >which obeyed it. Not quite accurate. They had managed to build mildly intelligent networks, one for each function, each capable of doing its job. The problem came when these networks started interacting in fashions that were either unexpected, or supposedly impossible. Such as the incident on the moon, where the construction scheduling system gained access to the defense system (supposedly impossible) and used its capabilities to do the job. >By page 108 Hogan has revealed the specific nature of the conflict >which is to arise from this premise: an intelligent computer system >is to be attacked to see if its responses are hostile and if men >can overcome it despite that hostility, and, if so, how. True. >Unfortunately, the what (in general), the why, and the how (almost >precisely), can all be deduced when page 62 has been reached, so >the remaining 328 pages have to stand on other merits than >cleverness (let alone intelligence) of plot. Bull. Some part of what, and why, may have been deduced by most people, but the how is not going to be deduced. Except by hindsight of overly critical readers. >That leaves characters, prose & conceptualizations as sources of >entertainment. But the characters are straight from the cookie >cutter, the prose is flat, and the conceptualizations are either >mundane or half-witted. Tie all of that up with a real "idiot >plot" and the result is the worst novel I have read in many years. Perhaps the problem is with a reader who has apparently forgotten how to enjoy reading. I feel that I am an above average reader, I happened to enjoy this book very much. I did not find the 'prose' flat. And if the characters are stock, well then, most characters in writing today are 'stock'. (Not an argument FOR mundaneness, but an argument against flaming for writing about good but ordinary characters.) And if you wanted to, you could argue that ALL characters in ALL books written today, or in the last 20 years, are basically "cookie cutter" characters. They may be dressed up a bit, but the prototypes have been out for over a hundred years. I don't quite understand what you mean by the 'conceptualizations' being either "mundane or half-witted." How about an example? >By way of example, consider the following. In the lab they have >the prototype for the system. It isn't very smart, but it's >learning. To help it along, and to understand its motives for >certain acts, they converse with it, either by terminal or voice. >Then they build the big system and the trouble starts. Not once, >through the rest of the story, does anyone converse with the >system. Quite true. And admitedly rather odd. However, don't I remember that it cut itself off from them since they were the source of the attacks on itself? >Near the end we even get 2 of the original designers of the thing >standing in front of a terminal, wondering how to get its >attention, how to communicate with it. They ended up waving their >hands in front of a TV camera and pointing to drawings, hoping that >the system would catch on! Have you considered several posibilities? 1) Voice equipment was unavailable at that location. 2) The computer was ignoring them. 3) The computer was not directly controling/conversing with the computer that ordinarily controled the station rotation? 4) Voice recognition/generation is not generaly used, perhaps due to the same problems we have with it now, that it has to be tuned to respond to a particular voice. As I remember, it was trying to control it all on it's own, they had to tell it about the equations, so they put them into the terminal, then they have to get the computer to read the terminal. Which it is currently ignoring since the terminal is a link to the creatures that are trying to destroy it! This is a combination of #2 and #3. Both of which can be supported from the book. >There were other idiocies of a similar nature, but this is the one >that made me crazy. And I think I've made my point, which is that >this is a bad novel, based on a half-witted premise, and with a >plot to match. I think the "idiocies" are more on the part of the overly critical reader, who also fails to stop and think *why* something that appears idiotic is done. And if this drives the overly critical reader crazy, then maybe he'd better stop reading before he really goes around-the-bend. I mean, there's a lot of books out there with worse problems than this one has. The premise is not "half-witted", it's merely an updated "Frankenstein". Consider: They needed a system that was far more intelligent than what they had now. They needed it to put some sanity into the solutions that the present system was using (see the part on the moon). However, they knew that they could shutdown the existing system, it would be a disaster to do so, but it could be done. And they DID NOT KNOW if they would be able to shut down a system that was SUPPOSED to be smarter! After all, it's supposed to be smarter, so isn't it likely that it would be better able to keep itself running? And if it did develop intelligence, how could they be sure that it would be friendly? If it turned out to be unfriendly, then they had to be able to shut it off! So, you rig a test in which this possibly dangerous entity is isolated from that which you wish to protect. (i.e. You do it off-planet.) And you arrange for graduated levels of 'shutoff' attempts, finally employing the most drastic measure, blow up the whole thing. (Which they were prepared to do, even if the damage to the rotation structure didn't shake it apart first.) Not at all "half-witted", more likely prudent! Enjoy! Edwin Wiles seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles Net Express, Inc. 1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300 Vienna, VA 22180 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 03:03:14 GMT From: unisoft!jef@rutgers.edu (Jef Poskanzer) Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow, by James P. Hogan is a Great Novel, but Richard King's complaints about the AI in the novel are unjustified. "Richard P. King" writes: >Worse yet, it was also clear that the entire premise of the novel >was that they had been able to build a world-wide computer system >which controlled transportation, communication, construction, etc., >yet it wasn't smart enough to recognize humans and understand their >frailties. Apparently, if you gave the system a command like >"remove this rock formation" and forgot to say "and avoid killing >any of the people near it", then the system just might decide to >use a bomb rather than a bulldozer. Somehow these supposedly >brilliant designers hadn't even heard of Asimov's first law of >robotics, or its equivalent in that universe. Nor, once they >decided they needed it, could they figure out how to build a system >which obeyed it. Some of the greatest philosophers in the world have debated the question of "What is Man?" I have yet to see a complete answer. Asimov's first law is easy to state, but five billion people and four thousand years of civilization have yet to completely implement it. It is unreasonable to expect AI programmers to do better. >By way of example, consider the following. In the lab they have >the prototype for the system. It isn't very smart, but it's >learning. To help it along, and to understand its motives for >certain acts, they converse with it, either by terminal or voice. >Then they build the big system and the trouble starts. Not once, >through the rest of the story, does anyone converse with the >system. Near the end we even get 2 of the original designers of >the thing standing in front of a terminal, wondering how to get its >attention, how to communicate with it. They ended up waving their >hands in front of a TV camera and pointing to drawings, hoping that >the system would catch on! Consider that one of the first things the system did was stop running user-scheduled tasks. Don't you think it's possible that one of those tasks was the voice-recognizer? Besides, even if the voice recognizer had been left running, why would the "intelligent" level of the system bother to interpret the voice input? Why would it even recognize the input *as* input? There would still be the problem of attracting its attention, and getting it to realize that you are not part of it. Cardboard characters are a standard charge aimed at Hogan, and I agree. But his technology is uncommonly realistic. For this book, he got help and advice from Marvin Minsky, and produced what is in my opinion the most accurate novel yet about intelligent computers. Jef Poskanzer unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu ...ucbvax!unisoft!jef ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 01:12:50 GMT From: rlgvax!jesse@rutgers.edu (Jesse Barber) Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow, by James P. Hogan RPK@IBM.COM writes: [ lots of reasons why he didn't like the book, including the fact that Hogan didn't follow Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics ] I, on the other hand, thoroughly enjoyed this book. I read it when it first came out in 1979, and have reread it a number of times since then. This was the first book I had read which treated artificial intelligence in a manner which is consistent with what's actually happening in the field. Most robot/computer stories beg the question of the "first" artificially intelligent robot/computer (who invented the 'positronic brain'? how?) or else just say "magic" (Heinlein in "Moon is a Harsh Mistress"). Hogan's book, on the other hand says if there is to be an artificially intelligent machine, it's because some human wrote some software to run on some hardware that some other human designed. And somebody's going to have to debug the damn thing. This is a story about the debuging of the software. The story basiclly starts with an 'expert system' (my words) endangering some people on the moon, when the system is removing a hill (by laser cannon). ( Richard didn't like this part because the designers had never heard of the "Three Laws of Robotics".) But the hill was removed, in a way that the designers hadn't predicted, so they decided to call the bug a feature, and exploit it. The main hero, a computer scientist working in artificial intelligence, (who would _you_ call, a psychologist? ) and suggests that instead of removing all the expert systems then in use, to be 'safe',that a truly artificially intelligent machine be created which would know or could be taught not to endanger humans. The method they use is to load some learning software into a machine that can control, through various types of robots, its environment, and then iritate it. In order to be able to 'pull the plug' the actual experiment is put on a space station, and our hero is sent there with other computer scientists as well as a military contingent. The rest of the book deals with the experiment. If you're into computers I recommend it. James P. Hogan, the author, used to be a consultant for DEC, so his books tend to treat computers and most technical/scientific subjects "realistically". It is similar to the movie "War Games" for this reason: realistic treatment of computers in a good story. Most of the computer freaks that I know also enjoyed it. I didn't talk to anyone who wasn't a computer freak about it, so I don't know whether they would get the same thing out it that I did. Also, if you do read this book, and like it, Hogan some other books out in which not too far into the future computers are well done. All in all I like Hogan and always look for his books when I go into a book store. For those of you who think I don't like Asimov or Heinlein, I didn't mean to give that impression. I grew up on the Robot Stories. I got into this field (computers) because of those stories. And RAH's books (prior to "Friday") are why I got into reading. Lastly, I am not a literary critic, a writer of speculative fiction, or a member of HASA (whatever that means). I'm a computer programmer who likes to read good science fiction/fantasy. Jesse @ C.C.I. Reston, Va. seismo!rlgvax!jesse ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 17:18:18 GMT From: wrd@tekigm2.TEK.COM (Bill Dippert) Subject: Re: Alfred Bester > Who was the author for the stories of detective Solar Pons? There were two authors of the Solar Pons series. Originally they were written by August Derleth, upon his death, Basil Copper took over as the author. Bill Dippert ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jan 87 0852-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #19 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 14 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 19 Today's Topics: Films - Quest for Love (2 msgs) & Short Circuit & Dark Star & Dune & Movie Title Request, Television - Robotech (3 msgs) & Blake's Seven ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Jan 87 15:23:16 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Finding the Title store2@ihuxi.UUCP (Wilcox) writes: > Speaking of forgotten titles, I have been trying to find the title > to a movie I saw years ago. I remember little about the movie > except it was a parallel universe type of movie in which the hero > was trying to get back to the woman he loved. This doesn't fit the facts you give, but the film that comes to mind is QUEST FOR LOVE (1971). It is the only science fiction film I know that really handles parallel universes. The film is a rather free adaptation of John Wyndham's story "Random Quest." It starred Tom Bell and Joan Collins. It is recommended, by the way. > Does anyone know if there is a definitive listing of SF/fantasy > movies with a short synopsis that I might find in the library or > somewhere? The problem is that they do not stay definitive for long. They get out of date. At one point I could have told you Walt Lee's REFERENCE GUIDE TO FANTASTIC FILMS, but it is now about 12 years old. A little less complete, but updated much more recently is Donald Willis's HORROR AND SCIENCE FICTION FILMS, the original and two books that are basically patches to update it are available from Scarecrow Press. If you are willing to settle for just science fiction films, Phil Hardy's THE FILM ENCYCLOPEDIA: SCIENCE FICTION is quite good and either B.Dalton or Walden Books in some places were selling it for $15 on their sale table a few months ago. Hardy also has one for the Western. If you can do without synopsis, the best and most current source is Lentz's SCIENCE FICTION, HORROR & FANTASY FILM AND TELEVISION CREDITS. This is a very useful source from McFarland & Company. One volume maps actors to dramatic presentations, the other goes in the reverse direction. It is a professional source and costs a professional's price, about $70. Also worthy of mention is Michael Weldon's THE PSYCHOTRONIC ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FILM. Despite the lurid cover and title, it is a good source. Also the biggest bargain for such a reference is one that covers all film, not just fantasy. Leonard Maltin's TV MOVIES is a real bargain of a reference, over 1000 very packed pages fo $4.95. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 87 14:50:52 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: Re: Finding the Title store2@ihuxi.UUCP (Wilcox) writes: >Speaking of forgotten titles, I have been trying to find the title >to a movie I saw years ago. I remember little about the movie >except it was a parallel universe type of movie in which the hero >was trying to get back to the woman he loved. I saw it on the late >movies at the time, so I'm sure it is at least 20 years old and I >think it was in black and white. I also think it was set in >England, so it might have been a British movie. > >Does anyone know if there is a definitive listing of SF/fantasy >movies with a short synopsis that I might find in the library or >somewhere? Sounds like "Quest for Love", a reasonably good adaptation of the story "Random Quest" by John Wyndham (collected in "Consider Her Ways and Others"). The original story, though, has a much more plausible alternative history. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 6 Jan 1987 12:53:10-PST From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Movie recommendation: SHORT CIRCUIT After a recent tour through the local video rental outlet, we watched a film we had never seen, called "Short Circuit." The movie has been returned, so I can't give a release date for this film, but it had some good science fiction and it was pretty funny. I liked this film, starring Ally Sheedy (sp?), also famous from The Breakfast Club, and that young actor from Cocoon (the name escapes me). They are both fine actors, but they were upstaged by the main character, a robot. The robot is No. 5 in a set of prototypes designed for the Army (of course), intended to be used in combat. Poor No. 5 gets zapped by electricity, which seemed to blow its circuits. But when no one is looking, No. 5 gets away from the Army installation (called NOVA, clearly intended to represent NORAD). No. 5 is malfunctioning, and he knows it. He wanders around, looking for "input." Then he meets Stephanie (Ally Sheedy), an animal lover who is totally opposed to the work being done at NOVA. At first, Steph thinks she's discovered an alien. She got good lines like: "Is that really you? Or are you inside some kind of space suit, like just a brain in a bottle or something?" When she discovers No. 5 belongs to NOVA, she calls them up and says, "I'd like to speak to one of your head warmongers." But No. 5 has some of the best comedic lines and situations in the movie. He is really cute, for a robot, and he can express a lot with his mechanical face and his flexible DECtalk-like voice. He develops a passion for TV, and picks up all the nuances and straight lines from old movies and television. So while NOVA is trying to chase him down and eliminate him, he provides the comic relief and, at the same time, proves his intelligence and his sensitivity. (Sensitivity, in a robot? Sorry, you'll just have to see the movie. I wouldn't want to spoil it for anyone.) No. 5 has one conflict after another in this movie. First, against the other prototype robots, then against his own engineer. And, finally, his ultimate conflict against the soldiers from NOVA. The story is well written, with plenty of character development and humor. The special effects are really good -- robots, lasers, chase scenes. The story has some intensity, and you really start to care about the characters. I think it would be a fine movie for youngsters, because it's not too strong and there are no really violent scenes or sexual situations. But it's a good film for VCR buffs because it's full of one-liners that come so close together, you can be laughing over a joke and miss the next one. We rewound at several places to catch the funny dialog. I recommend this movie for its science fiction and its humor. ------------------------------ Date: 07-Jan-1987 0701 From: kevin%bizet.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Re: Dark Star > Can anyone tell me who did the voice of the computer in Dark Star? > I have a hunch, but I'm not quite sure. According to the credits on the album: ``Cookie'' Knapp. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 87 02:35:28 GMT From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Colin Plumb) Subject: Re: DUNE (movie) >> I heard a rumour somewhere that Dune the film, although cut down >> for general release was also available to cons and the like >> complete with the full plot done almost page by page. Is this >> true and has anybody seen the film if it does exist? > >The only version of the film currently available is the one that >was released to the theaters. I've have heard from various sources >that all of the footage shot will be re-edited into a 5-hour (net, >which would most likely be 6 hours with commercials) mini-series >for television. When and if this evers happens is anyone's guess. One of the employees of Bakka (Toronto's oldest (and greatest) SF bookstore) told me the full, uncut version of DUNE was seen in Europe. (I think France was mentioned.) Can someone verify/disprove this? It apparently went over a good deal better, since sone plot was actually left in. (You *can't* cut special effects - that would be wasting money! :-) Colin Plumb ccplumb@watnot.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 87 08:35:07 GMT From: amdahl!kim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kim DeVaughn) Subject: Does anyone remember this OLD movie? I've been trying to track down the title to a movie I saw a LONG time ago, and the net usually seems to come up with an answer, so... Somewhere in the 1958-61 time frame, I saw a B/W, grade B (or C) movie that had to do with the arrival of an alien ship or probe. Since the military didn't understand what it was, where it came from, or what it wanted, they naturally took a shot at it with a guided missile (as such things were called then). They managed to damage the ship's control systems in such a way that it ended up locked in Earth orbit. For some reason (radiation, heat due to intense "friction", ...), the ship was "burning" a swath something like 10 miles wide as it continued to orbit ... destroying everything in it's track (cities, people, what have you). Anyway there was only have a little time left to save Earth from becoming a tosted cinder. The Hero (an isolated physisist in New Mexico, or some such), has to repair the nuclear tipped Nike Ajax they decide to shoot. He has only seconds before launch, and ends up sticking his hand into the warhead to fix the malfunction (maybe sabatoge). He saves the world, naturally, but doesn't get the girl ... I believe he dies (handling plutonium with your bare hands is not conducive to long term relationships)! That's about all I can recall, some of which may be wrong in detail. The gist of the above is pretty close, though. Does anybody know the name of this movie, or anything more about it? The reason I'm curious is that at one time or another I've seen just about every SF movie that I saw as a kid show up on late night TV. Except for this one. It wasn't a particularly *good* movie, but it was a lot better than the 15th showing of "Attack of the Mushroom People", etc. And yes, I would like to see it again, if only for nostalgic reasons. Thanks alot! kim UUCP:{sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb,cbosgd}!amdahl!kim DDD: 408-746-8462 USPS:Amdahl Corp. M/S 249, 1250 E. Arques Av, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 87 21:51:09 GMT From: aplvax!mae@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mary Anne Espenshade) Subject: Re: SF on television (Robotech and new anime) jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes: >robert@weitek.UUCP (Karen L. Black) writes: >>Robotech may have no reincarnations, but it sure has one whale of >>a lot of flashbacks. It seems like every sixth episode is >>composed of previous footage! > . . .Dana's Story is at least 1/2 flashbacks. Harmony Gold used flashbacks to fill in the places where they couldn't use parts of the original episodes. "Dana's Story" is nearly all flashbacks because they had to change so much to link Southern Cross with Macross. Southern Cross doesn't even take place on earth, so the whole original first episode, showing the colony planet with two moons, had to be omitted and flashbacks put in to turn Jeanne Francaix into "Dana Sterling". Likewise, a few Macross episodes toward the end had Southern Cross scenes added to start the connection with the "Robotech Masters". On a similar note - is anybody seeing Macron 1? I saw a few episodes at an anime club New Year's Eve party, it's a combination of Go Shogun and Srungle, of all things. I didn't catch who made it but the voices are awful and they are using Top-40 hits as background music. There is nothing more out-of-character then having Bundole, who in Go Shogun went into battle listening to tapes of classical music and occasionally got so carried away looking at the beauty of the explosions that he forgot to fight, listening to music from Beverly Hills Cop. The tapes were off a LA station, I don't know where else the show might be running. After getting disgusted with Macron 1 (it didn't take long), we watched some new shows from Japan, Saint Saya and Oh, Family!. Saint Saya has an unfortunately stupid plot, at least for the first four episodes we saw, because the concept is intreging. Each character is matched with a constellation and their fighting powers are associated with the mythical being portrayed. So far Pegasus, Cygnus and Dragon seem to be the main characters, but the alien menace in the opening credits hasn't shown up yet by episode 4 and the plot has been like a bloody futuristic boxing show with the characters fighting each other. I hope it gets better, the concept is neat. Oh, Family! is an animated sit-com about a "typical" California family. I don't now how funny the Japanese viewers think it is, but their idea of a "typical" California family is pretty funny in itself. The mother is out of a '50s/'60s tv family, the teenage daughter spends her time roller skateing, playing tennis and surfing, and the teenage son is gay. Odd show. We also watched the beautiful, but depressing, made-for-video movie Windaria. Anyone else out there in net-land seeing anything new and interesting? Mary Anne Espenshade {allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplcen!aplvax!mae mae@aplvax.jhuapl.edu mae@aplvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 04:47:10 GMT From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Starbuck) Subject: Southern Cross: The REAL story A little while ago, I read that the Southern Cross segment of the Series Robotech actually took place on a colony world. Now obviously Southern Cross was the most hacked apart segment of Robotech in order to make it fit in. Would I would like to know is the actual plot of the show. If anyone could mail or post it, I would be most grateful. Also, when is Megazone 23 (Robotech: The MOvie) coming out?? It's been a long wait since last Easter. Any news on the Sentinals??? (Plot, characters, etc???) Thanks, Stephen Pearl (201)932-3465 LPO 12749 CN 5064 New Brunswick, NJ 08903 UUCP: ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl ARPA: PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 13:15 EDT From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire Subject: More about Robotech and Japanimation in general.. Robotech is actually composed of 3 originally unrelated shows, those being Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada. Except for some minor fine tuning to make them all fit together, the American version is surprisingly faithful to the source material. No major violence has been cut, except perhaps some graphic bloodshed, of which there was little to begin with. They even attempted in some cases to have the American names sound similar to theJapanese ones! For example, Misa Hayasu became Lisa Hayes. Of interest to Robotech fans: There is a sequel out now called Robotech II, the Sentinels. It was SPECIALLY COMMISSIONED from the Japanese Tatsunoko Studios for American release! I don't know what its current status is, but I suspect that it may have been shelved as a result of the less than spectacular reactions to...Robotech The Movie! which was ANOTHER unrelated FEATURE FILM that was tied into the Robotech Saga. For more information than you could possibly want on Robotech, I highly recommend 'Robotech Art I' from Donning/Starblaze. In my next missive I'll include some more information on other Japanimation. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 87 08:52 CDT From: <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET> Subject: Blake's Seven >don't slag off Blake's Seven: I went to school with Terry Nation's >son, Darryl Smith, (the family name is Smith not Nation fact fans), >for fourteen years and they live in the next village to me so watch >out. I watched Blake's Seven avidly (if in some amount of confusion) while I was studying in Glasgow. I have been looking for books from the show, or tapes of it, or ANYTHING - mostly so I can tell my friends here about it and not have them look at me like I was losing my mind. Can anyone give me any pointers? Eleanor Evans ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Jan 87 0841-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #20 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 20 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Jan 87 01:11:25 GMT From: jgath%mycreche@Sun.COM (Jim Gath) Subject: Re: Donaldson [SPOILER for Covenant] philm@astroatc.UUCP (Phil Mason) writes: >I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing. Yes, there >were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found the >climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get there. >Anyone else out there feel the same? Or does the ending appeal to >most everybody? First, let me say that the Thomas Covenant books are some of my favorites. After reading the first trilogy and upon hearing that a second was in the works, I anxiously awaited the second set. Since I first bought them, I have read them three times. As to the final climax being disappointing, perhaps you could be more specific? Until then, here are my opinions on the subject. Take the books as two separate trilogies, the way they were intended to be taken. The first trilogy does admirably at providing a satisfying resolution to the stories. Covenant finally comes to terms with himself and uses his power to become the hero that everyone (except Covenant himself) knew he could be. As to the second trilogy, I think it was vitally important for Donaldson to let Linden Avery become the heroine. By doing so he provided the new material that made the books interesting. Somehow the idea of Covenant overcoming himself and again defeating Foul doesn't sound as exciting a second time. Donaldson needed a new hero(ine) to provide a source of new material. Hence, Avery became his main subject. Also, I felt it justified that Covenant had to sacrifice himself to atone for his failures in the past. Let's face it, his own impotence caused the original Staff of Law to be destroyed as well as the subsequent breaking of the 'Law of Death'. In ending the trilogy the way he did, Donaldson repaired the damage done earlier, shifted the stories further away from Covenant (possibilities still exist...), provided another chance for 'The Land' and its people, and set up the possibility for another trilogy. For example, Covenant and Avery may have conceived a child which may someday again save 'The Land'. In summary, I found both climaxes to be well done and well thought out. After all, you can never truly defeat evil. The best that they could do was to weaken it. As an aside, I am trying to complete a set of both trilogies in hard-cover. I am lacking _Lord_Foul's_Bane_ and _The_Illearth_War_. Does anyone know where I can get them? Jim Gath jgath@sun.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 14:23:11 GMT From: osu-cgrg!spencer@rutgers.edu (Steve Spencer) Subject: Re: Donaldson alle@ihlpl.UUCP (Marguerite Czajka) writes: > Through my book club, I got "Mirror of Her Dreams" by Stephen > Donaldson. I think I have the author right! - anyway the one "A > Man Rides Through". Does anyone know if this second book is out? No, not yet. "Mirror of Her Dreams" just came out in the fall so the second one shouldn't be out until summer 1987 I would guess. Yes, Marguerite, he is the one who wrote the Covenant trilogies (sexology?) and a collection of shorts, called "Daughter of Regals." If you haven't read that yet, do so. It contains, among other shorts, a long chapter which was cut out of "The Illearth War" and which describes the Bloodguard. Stephen Spencer, Graduate Student Advanced Computing Center for Arts and Design (ACCAD) The Ohio State University 1501 Neil Avenue, Columbus OH 43210 {decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!cbatt!osu-eddie!osu-cgrg!spencer (uucp) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 03:16:09 GMT From: jgath%mycreche@Sun.COM (Jim Gath) Subject: Re: Donaldson (_Mirror_Of_Her_Dreams_) spencer@osu-cgrg.UUCP (Steve Spencer) writes: >alle@ihlpl.UUCP (Marguerite Czajka) writes: >> Through my book club, I got "Mirror of Her Dreams" by Stephen >> Donaldson. I think I have the author right! - anyway the one "A >> Man Rides Through". Does anyone know if this second book is out? > >No, not yet. "Mirror of Her Dreams" just came out in the fall so >the second one shouldn't be out until summer 1987 I would guess. The physical book _Mirror_of_Her_Dreams_ is separated into two virtual books. I believe the end of the book says "the story will be completed in ...". In other words, this is a trilogy and you have the first two books already. Thank goodness there won't be three 600+ page books. Anyone else out there read it yet? What did you think? Jim Gath jgath@sun.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 21:12:20 GMT From: khudson@hawk (Urlord) Subject: Re: Donaldson philm@astroatc.UUCP (Phil Mason) writes: >I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing. Yes, there >were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found the >climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get there. >Anyone else out there feel the same? Or does the ending appeal to >most everybody? Just to let you know, the first three books do come to a climax of their own. This climax is just as important as the climax at the end of the third book of the second chronicles. (Well, at least as much as can be allowed by the recent discussion of literary merit B^). As you might be able to tell, I liked the two trilogies. They were a little tough to get through, but I think that it was worth the effort. >I don't know if I could stand another Donaldson series; especially >if it culminates 5 books later! From what I hear it is supposed to be a series of three. I believe that I read this in Xignals (sp?) which is the newsletter of Otherworlds Club of Waldenbooks. Kevin Hudson UUCP: !wanginst!ulowell!khudson@hawk ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 23:05:05 GMT From: fortune!stirling@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Donaldson philm@astroatc.UUCP (Phil Mason) writes: >I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing. Yes, there >were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found the >climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get there. >Anyone else out there feel the same? Or does the ending appeal to >most everybody? I agree. The climax was anti-! Also I thought he took a lot of ideas from Lord of the Rings, with close approximations to the names. Eg, Ranyhyn and Rohann (idea = amazing horses), the sentient forest, the journey under a mountain, even Sauron and Lord Foul. I liked The Wounded Land the Best. I think he could have done the whole thing in half the space. It was still pretty good though. Not on a level with TLOTR of course; one reading was enough for TCOTC. patrick {ihnp4,hplabs,amdcad,ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 13:34:40 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Donaldson and _Mirror_ As an ardent loather of the TC books, let say that I was pleasantly suprised by _The Mirror of Her Dreams_. It is not so grossly overwritten as TC (although it ain't exactly NYT English either) and there seems to be a deep and subtle point to the book. It is not an easy read, though, and my exhaustion at reaching the end was magnified somewhat by the realization that there is going to be at least as much more to go; there's just too much complication to be resolved. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 22:05:07 GMT From: elrond!adb@rutgers.edu (Alan D. Brunelle) Subject: Re: Donaldson philm@astroatc.UUCP (Phil Mason) writes: > I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing. Yes, > there were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found > the climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get > there. Anyone else out there feel the same? Or does the ending > appeal to most everybody? I have a hard timing deciding just where I would place the series with respect to the other series I have read. But I do believe that it's ending was quite appropriate, when one considers that Donaldson had to end it somehow, and as I see it there were 3 ways to do so: 1. Have Lord Foul win, that's no fun. 2. Have TC win, that's kind of against the constant statement: "You can't beat dispair". 3. Have TC sort-a-win, as in "The Power that Preserves". Which is what he decided on. It would have been awful hard for TC to have survived the happenings on both sides. (BIG question: why did the time go so slowly back here? One night != MANY weeks w/ the Giants @ sea! I know there was some correlation with the time in the Land and back here, but it seemed to me that there was too much time spent over in the Land. Perhaps the things Foul had done to the Land warped time as well as the Land?) I thought the books were very interesting and showed quite an imagination. (I especially liked two things: the 'hero' wasn't alway's heroic, and some of the differences he put in the 'aliens' - namely the Elohim, the Giants and some of the Land people) My biggest problem was having to go to the dictionary every 3rd word! (Flame on you Liberal Arts Majors!) Alan D. Brunelle uucp: ...decvax!elrond!adb phone: (603) 885-8145 us mail: Calcomp/Lockheed DPD (PTP2-2D01) Hudson NH 03051-0908 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 20:23:13 GMT From: k@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) Subject: Re: Donaldson & the Covenant Series First, let me say that I thoroughly enjoyed both trilogies, for the simple reason that the characters involved were very, very real - sometimes confused, unsure, stupid, wrong - in short, *not* the perfect heros/heroines that seem to pervade SF in general. The books were imaginative, yes, but what hooked me was the fact that not only can Donaldson write well, but he uses that talent to show us some very *real* people. Now, Patrick Stirling writes: >[] The climax was anti-! Also I thought he took a lot of ideas from >Lord of the Rings, with close approximations to the names. >[examples] Whoa! And you could say that Tolkien took a lot of ideas from mythology. We all draw on our cultural heritage when we write. I think you missed the most wonderful part of the story (in my opinion): the structure of "good" versus "bad", with a lot of room in the story for the human characters to be less-than-perfect, psychologically as well as physically. Tolkien's TLotR doesn't have that (cf. net postings about 4 months ago, I think). Yes, you can look at the "things" in the story and draw comparisons. I think a more productive reading would concentrate on the psychological landscape. Kay k@mit-eddie.UUCP kay@MIT-XX.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 17:55:00 GMT From: hogge@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Donaldson alle@ihlpl.UUCP (Marguerite Czajka) writes: > Through my book club, I got "Mirror of Her Dreams" by Stephen > Donaldson. I think I have the author right! - anyway the one "A > Man Rides Through". Does anyone know if this second book is out? Could someone write up a review of this book? Thanks, John ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 00:46:48 GMT From: sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin) Subject: Re: Donaldson philm@astroatc.UUCP (Phil Mason) writes: > I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing. Yes, > there were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found > the climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get > there. Anyone else out there feel the same? Or does the ending > appeal to most everybody? I heartily agree. It irks me to have to plow through over 1000 pages of an author showing off his vocabulary and ability to construct awkward sentences to reach a contrived ending. I though he could have wrapped up the entire second chronicles in one book, and left out _The One Tree_ almost entirely. Granted, we saw more of "the land" and got to know the people, but it seemed like a big waste of time, and I felt like I was working to get through the books. I don't read to work, I read for enjoyment. I'm sure that the series appealed to some readers, but objective assessment of literature is a topic I don't want to get into (it's already being discussed hotly and heavily in this group) Steve Chapin ARPA: sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu UUCP: ...!purdue!sjc ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 14:36:51 GMT From: elrond!adb@rutgers.edu (Alan D. Brunelle) Subject: Re: Donaldson stirling@fortune.UUCP writes: > I thought he took a lot of ideas from Lord of the Rings, with > close approximations to the names. Eg, Ranyhyn and Rohann (idea = > amazing horses), the sentient forest, the journey under a > mountain, even Sauron and Lord Foul. I liked The Wounded Land the > Best. I think he could have done the whole thing in half the > space. It was still pretty good though. Not on a level with TLOTR > of course; one reading was enough for TCOTC. Having read alot of Tolkien (LoTR, Hobbit, Silmarillion, and some of the Christopher T. books) I believe that it would be hard to read *any* Fantasy book that did not have some comparisons with J. R. R's works, for two reasons: 1. His works encompassed so many aspects of fantasy lore, and 2. I would bet that just about *everybody* has read LoTR, and as I remember hearing before, there is nothing new under the sun. Not to defend Donaldson too much, but it would seem to me that some of the above points could be true - but some seem awfully shallow to me: Sauron & Lord Foul? MAYBE Melkor/Morgoth & Lord Foul but not Sauron. I didn't realize that the forest in TC book were any more sentient then, for example the other plants, rocks and other matter - everything exuded HEALTH, if you refer to those beings that lived in the great forests with all that power (sorry I can't remember their names - one was the 'other' guy from 'our' world, the blind guy) - well they are not equivalent to the Ent's in my mind. The Journey under the mountain - this is a classical mythological adventure. I believe Tolkien himself said he 'borrowed' that idea. Anyway one has to adventure somewhere, and it seems to me that TC traveled in all sorts of places (including: OVER mountains, plains, 'cites', oceans, mystical islands, swamps, icelands & etc.) I hope this didn't seem too much like a FLAME, just expressing my viewpoint... I really don't have a favorite - I thought they were all about equally good, although I wish he had stuck to the pattern of the first 3, TC enter's The Land, something happens at the end of the book, TC leaves The Land till the next book. Alan D. Brunelle uucp: ...decvax!elrond!adb phone: (603) 885-8145 us mail: Calcomp/Lockheed DPD (PTP2-2D01) Hudson NH 03051-0908 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 23:41:49 GMT From: faustus@ucbcad.berkeley.edu (Wayne A. Christopher) Subject: Re: Donaldson I thought that Donaldson did a very good job of coming up with original ideas for his world. I've seen far too many fantasy books that were written like D&D adventures, with Dwarves, Elves, Hobbits, etc. (Granted, it's hard to say what these books would have been like if the LoTR hadn't been written, if they had been written at all -- so much of what Tolkien added to what he took from already existing folklore has become ingrained in our ideas of fantasy.) Donaldson came up with some fascinating races -- the Ur-Viles, the giants (at least D&D doesn't have a Stone & Sea Giant category), and many others whose names I can't recall (it's been a while). Wayne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Jan 87 0903-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #21 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 21 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (15 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Jan 87 02:30:06 GMT From: voder!kevin@rutgers.edu (The Last Bugfighter) Subject: Star Trek Time-Line and Command Grades The April '87 issue (#37) of DC's Star Trek comic book is the first issue since the STIV movie and back in the letters page there is an interesting reply to a letter which has to do with the time-line of the four movies. The following is a slightly edited version of it: The U.S.S. Enterprise (if the original still existed) would be about 40 years old. It was first commanded by Capt. Robert April, then by Capt. Christopher Pike, and then by a 29-year-old Capt. James Tiberius Kirk. The ship has had at least two five-year missions. The first mission was the 79 live-action episodes that we have seen on TV plus the 22 animated episodes. The majority of ST novels fit into this time-frame as well. There is then a two-and-a-half-year gap between the first five-year mission and STAR TREK: THE MOVIE. Then there is another five-year mission plus some unrevealed matters that make up the 10 years between the first movie and the second, STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KAHN. STII, STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK, and STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME all happen in a concentrated period of time, something close to a year. This makes the Enterprise about twice as old as I've heard anywhere else. DC is also publishing a WHO'S WHO IN STAR TREK. This is a two-volume comic which looks at key individuals, events and places in the Star Trek universe including characters created for the comic book and the animated TV series. I haven't had time to read both volumes but they seem to have done an excellent job (for example: did you know that Areel Shaw, the prosecuting atorney in the episode "Court-Martial", and the one who recommended to Kirk that he hire Samual T. Cogley, was born in Kansas City, Missouri? Oh.) By the way, the last page of volume two has a list of the command grades and the corresponding insignia. They are: Ensign Ensign First Class Lt. Junior Grade Lieutenant Lieutenant Commander Commander Captain Fleet Captain Commodore Rear Admiral Vice-Admiral Admiral Which would mean that Kirk was busted five ranks for his indiscretions, still getting off rather lightly I think. Kevin Thompson {ucbvax,pyramid,nsc}!voder!kevin ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 03:24:25 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Re: (copy) All things Vulcan FQOJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: > Does anyone know a reason why all Vulcan male names begin with an >"S" and all female with a "T" ? For those who haven't bothered to >touch any of the paperbacks, consider T'Pau and T'Pring versus >Spock, Sarek, and Ston (but the trend IS continued in the flood of >novels on the shelves). If Saavik is not a Vulcan name, then what kind of name is it? Ken Zarifes {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 05:58:27 PST (Wednesday) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #15 From: "Mary_Jo_DiBella.henr801E"@Xerox.COM Regarding STIV (which I loved!!)-- Did anyone besides me notice that DeForrest Kelley (McCoy) looks distinctly unwell lately? He seemed terribly thin and pale in STIV. I realize he's not a young man, and probably hasn't had the thousands of facelifts that keep Shatner looking young, but I was a bit worried about him. Does anyone have any info? Is he ill? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 87 10:14 EST From: Brian K. Ogilvie Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #15 From: >I just want to state that sound CANNOT travel through a vacuum. It >is impossible. Sound needs a medium of some sort to travel >through, water, or air. So you must conclude that the Whalesong >picked up by the Bounty, i.e. the Bird of Prey that the "valiant" >crew was in, was not transmitted as sound. Frankly, I don't care >how it was picked up. But, for this to be discussed, the laws of >science that we now accept must, in some way must be accounted for. I assumed that what they picked up was the recorded whalesong being played for tours of the institute that we heard later. I find it very believable that they would have a level of technology sufficient to pick out minute electromagnetic pulses from the tape recorder and speaker. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 87 07:57 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: All things Vulcan Cc: FQOJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >Also, has anyone ever seen a book entitled _ENTERPRISE_? It was >suposedly the "first" television script that Gene R. concocted, but >later abandoned If you mean Enterprise:The First Voyage, Gene R had nothing whatsoever to do with it. The whole thing comes from McIntyre's feverish imagination. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1987 08:24 EST From: Andrew T. Robinson Subject: Warp Engine Implosion The name of the episode, if I am thinking of the right one, was "The Naked Time"--the one with the blood that crawls out of ice- cover furniture to attack unsuspecting space travellers. Andy ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 21:09:08 GMT From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser) Subject: Re: Star Trek Edward J. Lorden said: >I have spent the last month and a half watching people on SF-Lovers >bicker over things that are fictional as though it were fact. I go >to movies to ENJOY myself. Then <732@rutgers.RUTGERS.EDU> NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET writes: >For many people (myself included), Star Trek is a real world, >planned out in infinite detail, and frequently much better >understood than the one we find ourselves in now. Star Trek is a >symbol of hope - hope for a better future, even for a future at >all. It reminds us sometimes that our little screw-ups now don't >really matter so much as we think they do when we're going through >them, and gives us something to work toward, to dream for. I agree that ST is many flavors of goodness, sweetness, and light. I don't agree that it is well-planned. Sadly, the design of ST is much like a large software project that grew from a one-shot programme that somebody wrote. It might have had a design once, but it has outgrown it. Like the Klingons in the first movie. Did the TV Klingons feature spinal columns that wrapped around their skulls? Nope. Somebody in the special effects department made them more interesting. Several years and many ST novels later, somebody wrote about a Klingon plan to re-write history (via time travel) to put the empire in a better position. Mention was made about a previous time-diddling experiment that changed Klingon anatomy. I read that to mean bent their spines. Then Larry Niven wrote one of the ST cartoons. He included stasis boxes, slavers, and Kzinn. I liked the story, but Niven's universe doesn't quite mesh with ST. How about the sex life of Vulcans? The TV series left me with the impression that there was little or none except during the right season. Subsequent books enhanced the impression. Then Kathleen Sky published "Vulcan!", and things were spelled out in embarrasing detail. Subsequent novels denied it. More attentive fans can probably point to better examples. There are times when the whole thing just doesn't hang together that well. I love it anyway. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 21:14:45 GMT From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser) Subject: Re: (copy) All things Vulcan >> Does anyone know a reason why all Vulcan male names begin with >>an "S" and all female with a "T" ? For those who haven't bothered >>to touch any of the paperbacks, consider T'Pau and T'Pring versus >>Spock, Sarek, and Ston (but the trend IS continued in the flood of >>novels on the shelves). > >If Saavik is not a Vulcan name, then what kind of name is it? Perhaps Romulan? I am told that the novel version of the movie that introduced Saavik gave considerable detail about her background. This material was not present in the movie. Saavik lived on a Vulcan colony planet that was taken over by the Romulans. [disclaimer: I have not seen this book. I simply present what I remember hearing from somebody who said that they did. Whew!] ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 18:30:18 GMT From: sam@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Shelli Meyers) Subject: Re: Star Trek Time-Line and Command Grades kevin@voder.UUCP (The Last Bugfighter) writes: > Ensign > Ensign First Class > Lt. Junior Grade > Lieutenant > Lieutenant Commander > Commander > Captain > Fleet Captain > Commodore > Rear Admiral > Vice-Admiral > Admiral > >Which would mean that Kirk was busted five ranks for his >indiscretions, still getting off rather lightly I think. Not necessarily. I assume that he was only a rear admiral, since it would have been very unlikely for him to promote from captain to full admiral in the given time frame. In the military, different grades with similar names are all referred to alike. You don't say, "Hello, Major General Doe," or "Hello, 2nd Lieutenant Smith". All generals are referred to as "General", all lieutenants are referred to as "Lieutenant", and consequentially, all admirals are referred to as "Admiral." Shelli Meyers, Boston University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 87 15:11:31 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald(Sarek) Subject: STTWOK Chris Welty claims that WRATH OF KHAN shows Kirk at his technical best. What are you talking about?? Remember these lines? "They are unwilling to respond, or they are unable to respond." "If we go by the book, like Lieutenant Saavik,...." "That's all we could get done in two hours." "But there is the Mutara Nebula." "His pattern indicates 2-dimensional thinking." These were all Spock's lines! Kirk is the one who disregarded Saavik's advice on the approach of the Reliant, the one who nearly got killed by Terrell, the one who complains about only getting partial main power when Spock had predicted only auxilary power in two hours. Face it, Kirk is through! Give Spock the Enterprise and retire Kirk...maybe he can go back to his cabin on Centaurus. st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 22:28:59 GMT From: wdl1!jrb@rutgers.edu (John R Blaker) Subject: Re: (copy) All things Vulcan But Saavik was raised by Romulans. Different naming conventions. John R Blaker UUCP: ...!sun!wdl1!jrb (jrb@wdl1.uucp) ARPA: jrb@FORD-WDL1.ARPA blaker@FORD-WDL2.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 87 13:47:48 cst From: Brett Slocum Subject: Star Trek time travel The third method of time travel mentioned by Kurt Geisel and Eleanor Evans occurred in the episode "The Naked Time". Indeed, a virus transmitted through sweat is brought onboard and it effects people much like alcohol does by reducing inhibitions. Sulu became sword-wielding D'Artagnion (sp?), Nurse Chapel told Spock how much she really loved him, Spock cried, and Lieutenant Riley sang Irish songs and turned the engines off. This episode is the source of Scotty's famous line, "I canna change the laws of physics, Captain. I gotta have therty minutes." This is one of my favorite episodes, along with "Mirror, Mirror", and "The Trouble with Tribbles". Brett ARPA: hi-csc!slocum@UMN-CS.ARPA UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 87 18:06 EST From: Barry Margolin Subject: Re: Added material in Star Trek movies To: David Platt , sfl-lovers@rutgers.edu I don't think that the material is edited out of the theatrical version because they think moviegoers won't sit through the longer version. I believe that happens is that they edit material back in to entice more people to watch it on TV. There are viewers who might not bother watching a movie they saw in the theatre and on cable when it finally comes to network TV. However, if they hear that there will be new material, they will tune in. I don't think this is the case for Star Trek movies, but another reason scenes might be added into the TV version of a movie is to replace scenes cut to conform to network standards. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 87 02:02:39 GMT From: jhunix!ins_ajpo@rutgers.edu (Milamber) Subject: Re: Star Trek Time-Line and Command Grades sam@bu-cs.UUCP (Shelli Meyers) writes: >kevin@voder.UUCP (The Last Bugfighter) writes: >> Ensign First Class I don't recall seeing this rank in any of the Star Trek technical manuals at any of the conventions I've been to. >> Commodore >> Rear Admiral >> Vice-Admiral >> Admiral >> >>Which would mean that Kirk was busted five ranks for his >>indiscretions, still getting off rather lightly I think. > >Not necessarily. I assume that he was only a rear admiral, since >it would have been very unlikely for him to promote from captain to >full admiral in the given time frame. Yes, Kirk was a full Admiral. Note that his rank insignia was a circle with 4 triangles (points, whatever-you-want-to-call-them) coming out of the center. Note also that Commander, Star Fleet had one with 5 of them. In all of the ST technical manuals I've leafed through, I've seen that Rear-Admiral is the circle with 2 triangles, Vice-Admiral is the circle with 3 triangles. For the rank of Commodore I've seen a contradiction. I seem to remember in one book, it was the circle with 1 triangle, and in another, it was similar to the Captain insignia (from the movies) with 2 additionial triangles coming off of the sides, thereby making it look something like this: ___ \ / / \ / \ |\ |---| /| | >|---|< | |/ |---| \| \ / \ / /_\ In the first book, where the Commodore insignia was the circle and one triangle, this was the insignia for Fleet Captain. In the book with this as Commodore, there was no such rank as Fleet Captain at the time the movies took place, but there was one before it. Any ideas why? Joe Ogulin UUCP: {seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}!jhunix!ins_ajpo ARPA: ins_ajpo%jhunix@hopkins-eecs-bravo.ARPA BITNET: ins_ajpo@jhunix.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jan 87 20:13:57 GMT From: ahh@h.cc.purdue.edu (Brent L. Woods) Subject: Re: (copy) All things Vulcan dennisg@fritz.UUCP (Dennis Griesser) writes: >Saavik lived on a Vulcan colony planet that was taken over by the >Romulans. >[disclaimer: I have not seen this book. I simply present what I >remember hearing from somebody who said that they did. Whew!] I suggest you read the book. It's quite good. Anyway, it was a *Romulan* colony planet that they *abandoned*. The Vulcans sent a rescue mission there to investigate. The mission ended up helping the "undesirables" (old, crippled, half-breeds, etc.) that the Romulans left behind when they evacuated the planet (Hellguard). Spock saw some potential in Saavik, and sponsored her through primary education and into Starfleet Academy. Brent Woods USENET: {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h!ahh ARPANET: woodsb@el.ecn.purdue.edu BITNET: PODUM@PURCCVM PHONE: (317) 861-4844 USNAIL: Brent Woods R.R. 1 Box #S.R. 67 New Palestine, IN 46163 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Jan 87 0915-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #22 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 22 Today's Topics: Television - Japanimation (6 msgs) & HitchHikers (3 msgs) & Starman & Blake's Seven ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 13:27 EDT From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire Subject: Japanimation News. For all you fans of Starblazers, there is going to be a comic book from Comico this spring called, 'Starblazers'. The interesting thing about this one is that it is going to be featuring original material, rather than adaptations of any of the existing stories. The writer is Phil Foglio (yes WRITER), and the artist is Doug Rice, of Dynamo Joe fame. The story takes place right after the second American TV series, before any pf the Japanese movies/tv series that are unavailable as yet, in America (more on that later). Apparently it involves some of the dregs of the Comet Empire that weren't destroyed at the end of the second series trying to cause general havoc. The artwork looks okay, though uninspired. In other Starblazers news, the much heralded THIRD SERIES is finally available in some cities! (Not, alas, Boston or Amherst..*sigh*). The good news is that the story has been left relatively untouched, even to the point of including graphic violence and a rather complex plot involving strange alien gods. The bad news, for fans of the original voice actors in the American version, is that the voice cast is completely different. For those of us who have waited for years for some new Starblazers, it is a welcome addition to the canon. In other Japanimation News, someone mentioned Thunderbirds earlier, well as a totaly obscure bit of trivia, the producer of Galaxy Rangers (also earlier mentioned) is the same as the producer of the animated Thunderbirds 2086. I told you it was obscure. Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 16:15:05 GMT From: ccastkv@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti) Subject: Re: More about Robotech and Japanimation in general.. From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire >Of interest to Robotech fans: There is a sequel out now called >Robotech II, the Sentinels. It was SPECIALLY COMMISIONED from the >Japanese Tatsunoko Studios for American release! I don't know what >its current status is, but I suspect that it may have been shelved >as a result of the less than spectacular reactions to...Robotech >The Movie! which was ANOTHER unrelated FEATURE FILM that was tied >into the Robotech Saga. Less than spectacular reactions to the Robotech Movie? Where did you hear this? It did quite well in the test release done in Dallas. In fact, it did far better than expected for an animated film. However, the distributor decided to shelve the movie since they felt that the market would be glutted due to the release of the Transformers movie and because they also felt that giant robot toys were on their way out reducing their potential audience. Don't you just love these people's logic? By the way, the Robotech Movie is approximately 1/3 Super Dimension Fortress Macross, 1/3 Megazone 23, and 1/3 new animation. Robotech II: The Setinals consists of new animation covering the time periods between the segments in order to create a better background for the series. For example, we will see Rick and Lisa taking the SDF-3 into space and learn exactly what Colonel Wolf did that made him such a hero in the eyes of Scott. However, it too has currently been shelved for a number of reasons. First of all, a lot of stations are "boycotting" Harmony Gold due to their distribution of "Captain Harlock and the Queen of a Thousand Years." It seems they are none too happy to have been sold a show in which one of the main heroic figures suffers from a major facial disfigurement. Secondly, a lot of stations have hopped onto the "giant robot toys are on the way out" bandwagon and don't want to pick up that kind of a show. Finally, and most importantly, other companies are making it far too lucrative for stations to run their shows. Let's face it, any station that runs the Transformers and G.I. Joe, worthless dreck that they are, can look forward to getting a lot of business from Hasbro (or whomever) and Marvel Comics. This, coupled with the attitude that if a show is animated it's only for little children and imbeciles, is what is responsible for most animation on television and in the theaters being half hour (or however long) commercials for some toy or another. If you don't like this trend, like me, I suggest you write your local stations asking that they revive Robotech and any other animation that you've seen on and like and get your friends to write as well. One last note, if they ever manage to air Robotech II we can look for Robotech III as well. Robotech III will take place after Genesis Climber Mospeada and cover Scott's search for the SDF-3 though he won't get very far before he realizes he needs a bigger ship than his Alpha/Beta and turns back for Earth. Keith Vaglienti Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 01:12:36 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Re: More about Robotech and Japanimation in general.. From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire > Robotech is actually composed of 3 originally unrelated shows, > those being Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada. Except for some > minor fine tuning to make them all fit together, the American > version is surprisingly faithful to the source material. No major > violence has been cut, except perhaps some graphic bloodshed, of > which there was little to begin with. They even attempted in some > cases to have the American names sound similar to theJapanese > ones! For example, Misa Hayasu became Lisa Hayes. The plots and characters of the original series were butchered beyond belief. I have NEVER heard the opinion that Harmony Gold was "faithful" to the source material. What about Carl Macek's plot hacks like turning Protoculture into an energy source (ugh!) and making characters who were almost solely responsible for saving everyone from an alien invasion (in the original) turn out to screw up totally and actually aid the invasion's success (as in Robotech). How can you call abominations like this "minor fine tunings"!?!?!?!? Ken Zarifes {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 87 13:34 EDT From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire Subject: Macron 1 On the subject of Macron 1... Since Macron 1 is composed at least in part of footage from Go Shogun, I think that it would be most interesting if the American company optioned the film 'Etranger' which was a sequel of sorts. 'Etranger' is just another example of the Japanese studios willingness to go out on a limb with somewhat experimental material, thus bringing television and movie SF far closer to the written variety than has yet been seen in this country. 'Etranger' seems to be an exploration of one of the characters deepest, innermost psyche. It is basically an extended dream sequence that occurs after a car accident. In her dream world she must confront all manner of inner fears. I cannot accurately describe it beyond that, since I didn't get an accurate translation. 'Etranger' is one in what appears to be a new trend in Japanimation, the surrealist film. Another example is 'Beautiful Dreamer', which was based on the Urusei Yatsura (Those Obnoxious Aliens) TV series. In this film, the characters are literally trapped in one ofthe characters dreams, wherein they encounter characters from Japanese mythology and extreme paranoia. At one point, the characters notice that none of them seem to be able to leave their hometown, so they get in a plane and try to fly away, only to discover that their town is on the back of a giant turtle flying through space! These films both take established characters and situations and bring them into flights of fancy far beyond the scope of the original. It appeals on the same level to me, that something like 'The Prisoner' or 'Watchmen' does. Taking a cliched concept (spies and superheroes) and taking it one step further and actually DOING something with these concepts. Well, I've managed to go from Silly giant robot shows to a treatise on surrealist SF. Sorry folks... Dan Parmenter Hampshire COlleg ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 87 23:34:07 GMT From: lsuc!jimomura@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: More about Robotech and Japanimation in general.. 'Robotech Art I' from Donning/Starblaze was mentioned. What is this? Is it a book? Could someone post the ISBN, price, address and/or other info about it? Cheers! Jim O. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 87 12:58:12 GMT From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Starbuck) Subject: Re: More about Robotech and Japanimation in general.. zarifes@bnrmtv.UUCP (Kenneth Zarifes) writes: >From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >> Robotech is actually composed of 3 originally unrelated shows, >> those being Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada. Except for >> some minor fine tuning to make them all fit together, the >> American version is surprisingly faithful to the source material. >> No major violence has been cut, except perhaps some graphic >> bloodshed, of which there was little to begin with. They even >> attempted in some cases to have the American names sound similar >> to theJapanese ones! For example, Misa Hayasu became Lisa Hayes. > > The plots and characters of the original series were butchered > beyond belief. I have NEVER heard the opinion that Harmony Gold > was "faithful" to the source material. What about Carl Macek's > plot hacks like turning Protoculture into an energy source (ugh!) > and making characters who were almost solely responsible for > saving everyone from an alien invasion (in the original) turn out > to screw up totally and actually aid the invasion's success (as in > Robotech). > > How can you call abominations like this "minor fine > tunings"!?!?!?!? Could you please be more specific. I am a big fan of Robotech and am very interesting in learning about The Original Plots of Macross, Sothern Cross, , Genesis Climber The changes that Carl MAcek made to the original plots. > turning Protoculture into an energy source (ugh!) and making > characters who were almost solely responsible for saving everyone > from an alien invasion (in the original) turn out to screw up > totally and actually aid the invasion's success (as in Robotech). By this I assume you are refering to Southern Cross. Again, please give examples. Thank You Stephen Pearl VOICE: (201)932-3465 US MAIL: LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903 UUCP: ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl ARPA: PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 14:11:08 GMT (Sorted by Postman Pat) From: M.E.Calloway Cc: DERRICK , Cc: DREW Subject: Hitchhikers.... more! Re: Interesting fact about Marvin from The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The actor who played Marvin in both the Radio and TV Series of The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy is Stephen Moore who, incidentally, can presently be seen without robot costume in Thames TV's "The Growing Pains of Adrian Mole" (Mon. 8pm). This is the fictional diary of a pathetic, pretentious 15 year old suburban Leicester schoolboy and chronicles with very funny and ironic naievity (sp?) and innocence his perceptions of British life in the early Thatcher years. Stephen Moore is Adrian Mole's storage heater salesman father. It's not as good as the book (cf. Hitchiker debate) but transfers better than might be expected. Perhaps having to play along with ex-60s singing star Lulu as his wife and the hideously wimpy Gian Sammarco (Adrian Mole) has put Stephen Moore into an uncontrollable depression. If he had slipped back through a time-warp 8 years into the past this could explain his convincing portrayal of depressive Marvin. The Growing Pains of Adrian Mole is, co-incidentally, like The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy a TV series of the book of the radio series. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 87 21:19:08 GMT From: gtuplab!susan@rutgers.edu (Susan Gregory ) Subject: Re: theme music for Hitch-hiker's Guide >What is the source of the theme music for Hitch-hiker's Guide to >the Galaxy (the BBS TV version, at any rate). Is it something the >BBC whipped up or, as a friend of mine swears, is it from an old >Fleetwood Mac album. The closing credits list a composer and an >arranger, neither of whom I recognise. Thanks. The theme music to Hitch-hiker's Guide is an electronic version of the Eagle's "Journey of the Sorcerer", an instrumental piece. I don't know if the rest of the Guide's music is original or not. Susan Gregory Georgia Tech microprocessor lab ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 21:22:46 GMT (Sorted by Postman Pat) From: Drew Cc: DERRICK Subject: More details on HH records. Re: records to do with Hitchhiker, being a curious sort of person I looked in the back singles of our Radio Station here and I found the Theme from HH, (a re-recording of The Eagles number doubtless to avoid copyright problems), on Original Records (Cat no. ABO5), with three tracks on the b-side; 1) Reg Nullify in Concert, 2) Disaster Area introduction, and 3) 'It's only the End of the World again' by Disaster Area themselves. (Artistic comment: My co-presenter thought that Reg Nullify was better than Disaster Area and they pretty awful as well). All this is from the LP 'The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy - The Resturant at the End of the Universe', (Cat no. ORA54), also on Original Records. All this slightly confounds my original theory of them being on Virgin but I still think this is an offshoot record company so there! Drew ------------------------------ Date: 14 January 1987 15:23:01 CST From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Carlo N. Samson) Subject: Starman (TV) Anyone out there watch "Starman" (the TV show based on the movie of the same name)? I do, and I think its one of the best sci-fi series to come out in a long while. Unlike "The Phoenix" (which had much the same idea, that of the alien being pursued by the government man), "Starman" has all the makings of a hit show: well-drawn characters, intelligent plots, and a nice touch of witty humor in each episode. The show relies more on its characters and story than special effects (which "Buck Rogers", "Battlestar Galactica", etc. should have done). Really, the only special effect is the Starman's metal sphere, which is used about once an episode. Robert Hayes plays the title character, C.B Barnes as the 14-year-old son of Jenny Hayden, and Michael Cavanaugh as George Fox, the FSA agent pursuing them. It currently airs on ABC at 9:00 CST. Watch for it! Carlo Samson U09862@uicvm ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 22:22:11 GMT From: ihuxb!doctor@rutgers.edu (Wooton) Subject: Re: Blake's Seven > I have been looking for books > from the show, or tapes of it, or ANYTHING - mostly so I can tell > my friends here about it and not have them look at me like I was > losing my mind. Can anyone give me any pointers? Check your local TV-Guide. In some areas it is currently showing on public television stations. In Chicago it shows at 11:30 PM on Saturday night. Look around Friday, Saturday or Sunday nights (The usual nights for Blake's 7, I believe). Clayton James Wootton AT&T Information Systems Naperville, Illinois ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Jan 87 0930-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #23 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 23 Today's Topics: Books - Hogan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 January 1987, 15:44:10 EST From: "Richard P. King" Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow (SPOILER!) Edwin Wiles, Jef Poskanzer, and Jesse Barber took exception with some of the statements in my posting about James Hogan's novel The Two Faces of Tomorrow. Here is a discussion of some of the points they raise. About what becomes obvious by page 8: We have a survey team which has asked the computers to remove a rock formation. When asked if they had any other requirements for that job, they said no. The computer said it would do the job in 21 minutes. The members of the survey team had been expecting it to take on the order of several days. They think it must be a mistake, but maybe not, no, they guess not, so without asking for an explanation of how the computers plan on doing this, they sign off. (At this point I apologize for slipping over to page 9.) And, by the way, the computer had, of course, failed to justify this peculiar estimate. At this point I stopped and thought to myself that they have gone out of their way to avoid consulting the ultimate authority on the reason for that estimate. It occurred to me that the author must be setting them up for a fall. It seemed to me that the only obvious way to remove a large mass of rock that quickly would be to shoot a missile at it. The tip off was that "ANY CONSTRAINTS?" query from the computer. I realized that the "NO. JUST GET RID OF IT." response was going to be taken by the computer as a carte blanche. So I concluded that the purpose of the prologue was to put forward the premise that computers can use purely logical means to devise apparently nonsensical solutions to problems. Nonsensical, to humans that is, because they fail to take account of some factor which humans think is obvious, or because they succeed in making an association between an ordinary goal and an unusual instrumentality for achieving that goal. Of course, this is all much better formed now than it was when it first came to me, but I really, truly, honestly, did see these connections & implications. And I found them very distressing, because they struck me as being oversights too simple-minded for the system designers to have made. About the problems with the basic premise of the novel: It seems to me that a system which knows about construction work knows about explosives. They're used all the time when building roads. The designers of a computer system which knows about construction work would also realize that a system that was to be trusted with explosives must be required to include consideration for any risks to humans which any construction plan entailed. It would be THEIR butts that would be in slings when the computer spat out a plan calling for the detonation of explosives while people were working nearby. I realize that there are today operating systems which require its users to beg it not to do things wrong, that is, to enter commands only just so or disaster may strike, like a file is lost, or a disk is erased. But the system under discussion is sufficiently sophisticated that it is entrusted with the scheduling and control of earth-moving equipment, and the evaluation of surveying data to plan and carry out large-scale construction projects. Such a system would be given commands like "JUST GET RID OF IT." It would take this goal and try to devise a plan which achieved that goal. But the designers of the system would never allow a goal to be presented which did not include a proviso along the lines of "but don't you DARE let anyone get hurt, no matter HOW important they say this job is, unless, of course, this goal was given to you by GOD HIMSELF, in which case you need merely complain bitterly, loud and often about any and all of the risks involved!" Something like the way editors ask "Are you sure? (y/n)" when the user says QUIT after making changes to a file. All of which leads me to think that the system would not have pursued this plan. And not because it had found a way to do the job which was later rejected for failing to fulfill some additional criteria which had been tacked on the side. But rather because fulfilling this safety proviso is PART of the job, and no plan would be regarded by the system as doing the job in any sense if it failed to fulfill that part of the job. One might suggest that the program which made the association between the construction project and the mass driver which slings moon rocks into space didn't really understand the construction project programming system or the system which controlled the mass driver. Rather, it just noticed some correlation between the ones needs and the others capabilities. But that doesn't seem right to me. For how could it make such a correlation? As the system is described, it somehow saw that a plan taking advantage of the one system lead to achievement of the other system's goal. I would imagine by passing to the construction planning system a suggestion for a plan and having it evaluate it. But that just takes us back to the safety proviso which should be in the construction planning system. So the plan should still be rejected. Of course, a similar safety proviso would have been built into the system controlling the mass driver. "You want me to shoot buckets WHERE? Hey, that sounds dangerous." And this gets us to the heart of the problem with this premise. Regardless of what unanticipated associations the system develops, the subsystems which make the plans wouldn't accept a plan which seemed dangerous. And the subsystems that were asked to carry out the plans wouldn't accept the commands either, for the same reason. Namely, it doesn't fit in with its goals, which, by design, take safety into account. And each, being expert in the use of its own instrumentalities, should be able to recognize dangerous applications of those instrumentalities. Given, that is, a level of sophistication greater or equal to that known today. In the novel, the only way to avoid this sort of problem that anyone suggests is to start adding provisos like "don't use the mass driver for construction projects", and "please don't eat the daisies." But that isn't how we do things today, even. When a chess program falls into a trap, we don't just add a detector for that trap (except, of course, in openings). Rather, we figure out a way for the program to see farther down the game tree, so that it can better see the relationship between the moves leading to the trap and the goal of the program, which is winning the game. The same sort of consideration applies here. The systems are smart enough to analyze rock formations based on data from TV cameras and laser ranging equipment, and to figure out how to remove such rock formations using construction equipment. Can't such a system be made to recognize humans? I don't see why not. The system doesn't have to solve any deep philosophical problems. It just has to recognize these objects with a characteristic appearance. Surely that's easier than analyzing a rock formation. And what if it isn't. There was a terminal in operation at the site. Proposition: the objects which operate terminals are humans. And in any case, if the system isn't smart enough to recognize the possibility of hurting humans, dogs, cats and survey vans, how did it ever get trusted to operate heavy machinery? Standard working practice: check to see if the work envelope is clear of people, cats, dogs, sensitive equipment. Before detonating explosives, erect barriers, sound alarms, etc. Something of a not quite recognizable nature is present, ASK WHAT IT IS! That still leaves one possibility. Two subsystems, each normally quite benign and mundane, somehow get together to do something dangerous. In that case, even the safety provisos wouldn't help, because the designers of each of the subsystems sees that subsystem as inherently safe. There is still a simple solution. These novel associations are just bonuses that the system tries to dig up. People would be perfectly happy to go without them. After all, the system already works. So, impose a little extra work on the system when it happens to find a weird combination that actually seems to work. Have it ASK SOMEONE! It's not that hard. "Hey, guys. I can do the job in 21 minutes, but I have to use boulders projected by the mass driver system to do it. OK?" And, "Hey, guys. There's a construction project that would benefit by my lobbing a few boulders over at it. OK?" AND "By the way GOD, I've just established an association between the moon's mass driver system and a nearby construction project. OK?" The answer, of course, would be NO! And since the system only came up with this plan because it saw it as a measurable improvement, it should be easy for it to prioritize the requests for confirmation of the novel work plans. I admit that this may slow the progress of the system ever so slightly, but it seems much more reasonable than all of the gyrations these guys go through. Regarding what can be deduced by the time page 62 has been reached: While it's true that the specifics of the whole thing haven't been laid out in excruciating detail yet, quite a bit can be deduced from what has been established in the first 62 pages. The HESPER system is believed to be inadequate, the only way they see to fix it is to replace it with the even more intelligent FISE system. But they are worried that FISE might get out of hand, developing desires at odds with the needs of the humans which are effectively at its mercy. On the other hand, Dyer, the lead scientist, had just completed a test session with the FISE prototype. During that session the system was informed that certain actions were harmful to Herbert, FISE's alter ego within the confines of this simulation. FISE concluded not only that Herbert should avoid doing things like that again, it also concluded that Brutus, Herbert's dog, should be restrained from doing similar things, lest it be harmed. FISE had concluded that Brutus was like Herbert, and that since Herbert didn't like getting hurt, neither would Brutus. Dyer sat & thought about how significant this was. What did I conclude? They would implement a full-scale FISE system, putting it in charge of the whole world. It would somehow come to think of humans as more trouble than they were worth, perhaps as the result of accident, terrorist sabotage, an attempt to turn off the system because it had made a mistake (shades of M5), whatever. Some sort of battle for control of the system would ensue, with the computer staying comfortably ahead because it has the resources of a planet at its disposal (shades of Colossus: The Forbin project). Finally, someone would get the bright idea to TALK to the thing and suggest to it that humans are like FISE, which would lead to FISE making the kind of connection it had made between Herbert and Brutus. After which a truce would be declared. I really, really, really did think of these things at that time. Was I completely right? No, of course not. The system was implemented on an experimental space station inhabited by 5000 volunteers from the Army, fitted out with a complete transportation system, refinery, factory, repair robots, delivery ships, solar power plant, and fusion power plant. So not the world, no, but not a toy either, and with all of the tools at hand necessary for it to get loose. The system was deliberately provoked, not accidentally, to see how it would react, and to make sure that no matter what it did, the humans could still shut it down. I knew that wouldn't work out as soon as the fusion reactor and the repair robots were mentioned. And so forth. Regardless of what adjectives you choose to characterize how close my guesses were at any moment as I read through this book, the point is that I always felt that the general form was there and that each piece dropped into its obvious place not as the various concepts percolated together, but as soon as it was introduced. I then had to wait however many pages it took until the author decided it was time to use that piece. In the mean time, the characters go along blithely ignoring whatever it is, somehow managing never to think of doing the obvious, saying the obvious, or, especially, ASKING the obvious question, until it is too late for them to do something obvious. It was all very much like in, say, Poltergiest. Step by step, really weird things happen. The people involved keep saying "Wow, that was weird. But I guess it's OK now, so let's all go back to bed." The things get worse and worse. The people keep struggling, but keep thinking they still have things more or less under control. Finally, it gets really awful, somebody remembers the McGuffin (or whatever), and a truce is declared. And I always know that after that very first incident, I would be out of the house wearing no more than when I first caught on to this jive, and no power on EARTH would get me back in there ever again in my LIFE. Which is not to say that Poltergiest did not entertain me. It did. But that was for reasons other than plot and logical consistency, since I accept the haunted house formula for what it is, and it wasn't put forward as anything more serious than a simple-minded entertainment with some good scares in it. But the same cannot be said for Hogan's Two Faces of Tomorrow. He filled that book with endless details, descriptions, and scientific discussions. He even invokes the name of Marvin Minsky in his dedication. I expect characters in such stories to make intelligent use of the information in hand as soon as they get it, I expect them to think of things as soon as they become obvious, and I expect them to do what intelligent people do when in doubt: they ask. But not in this story. No one comes up with the fairly simple solutions I proposed to fix the HESPER system. No one realizes how out of control the system could easily become until long after the system has taken measures which they should have anticipated before the experiment started. When they see that the system is smarter than they are, they continue to use half measures to try to keep things together. And whenever the computer does something which is startling, they never ask it what it did, how or why. Even though, back when they had the prototype that was the standard procedure. [End of Part I - Moderator] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Jan 87 0942-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #24 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 24 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Hogan (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 23:27:42 est From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #12 Just to be perverse...... I think Teckla follows naturally from Jhereg and Yendi. I really do. Cawti's anti-Dragaeranism is brought out in Yendi so that her stance in Teckla is reasonable. The only thing is, she seemed smarter in the earlier books -- too smart to become such an ideologue as in Teckla. But then, the revolutionary movement is portrayed through Vlad's eyes -- obviously not a disinterested observer. Clearly, the two earlier books are written in a somewhat different tone, but the theme of Dragaeran-H.Sap. conflict is always there, always discussed from different viewpoints -- like the breakup between Cawti and her partner, the view from Kragar's alienated position, even in the general discrimination against the Jhereg from the other houses. Of course in Teckla, the Teckla are the pariahs in question. Unfortunately for the revolution, not only do the "bosses" in this case control the money and the swords, they've got the sorcery as well.... Another thing I liked was Vlad's realization that he has been deluding himself all these years, that no matter how he cuts it, assassination, etc. is just not nice.... From the egalitarian side, it doesn't matter that he has just been beating up on Dragaerans -- just because they're 8' tall, superhumanly strong and long-lived, and act on the whole fairly childishly doesn't mean they're not people. And from the egocentric side, Vlad himself is a reincarnated Dragaeran, and an important one at that. If there is another book to come chronologically after Teckla, these themes have to be resolved, an unenviable task -- no matter what, it will sound moralistic and Piers-Anthony-like. However (hint hint), it would be even worse NOT to write a sequel, leaving everything hanging -- philosophically unsatisfying, at the least. Laurence R. Brothers brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu {harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!brothers ------------------------------ Date: 16 January 1987, 15:44:10 EST From: "Richard P. King" Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow (SPOILER!) [Part II - Moderator] About the nature of man-machine communication: In order to communicate with the FISE prototype at CUNY, the scientists entered commands & queries at a keyboard. The computer responded by voice and by graphic display. The humans didn't use voice to avoid problems with the computer misunderstanding them. See page 41. The space station on which the test took place was a technological wonder. They had every doo-dad known to their scientists. See the descriptions which begin on page 132. This includes more computing power than you could shake a stick at. See the descriptions which start on page 171. When the system somehow seems to have spontaneously developed more processing power, how do the people investigate. By tracing the changes to the system at the circuit level. See page 220. Given the claims as to the size of the system, it's amazing that takes minutes rather than days. But why do that at all, why not ask the system? No reason, except that it suits the author. When one of the scientists wants to check on what had been going on in the system since yesterday, he examines a paper log. PAPER! With circles drawn around interesting items. The log of a system larger than all of the machines we now have on the entire earth. This is for the entire overnight shift, mind you, not just 1 particular millisecond. And this is not a summary; the summary pages are appended on the back. Somehow this log can be held in one hand. See pages 222 & 223. Of course, it could be heavily condensed. That's really not the point, although I am very suspicious as to how they derive the level of detail of information about the activities of particular parts of the system from such a heavily condensed log. The big problem is that they didn't ask the system about the anomalies they find, they send someone off to take an physical inventory. And all of this failure to consult the system directly is not due to a lack of cooperation of the system. The system at no point stopped accepting input from terminals. Once it deduced that certain programs were issuing commands to devices which were fighting against it, the system did shut down the communication links to those devices, but even that wasn't until after the events I've described above. See page 250. It's quite clear that all along they had been using the system to enter their commands, run their programs, communicate with their robots. And when it comes time for the humans to make their peace offering to the system, we find them standing in a room next to the console of a computer which is attached to the system. That's what it says on page 349. And they say "We'll have to try telling it." and "It doesn't speak our language." These are two of the guys who have worked on the system since it was a prototype at CUNY. They are the designers & programmers of that prototype. They've been working with the system on the space station since it was first conceived. Their solution: activate a console camera to transmit an image of them to the system, so as to attract its attention. And not because the system is ignoring their console input, but quite clearly because they don't know how to communicate with it. "It doesn't speak our language." They are perfectly able to use the system to draw the diagrams they use for their mime act for the system. It's just that 2 of the systems original designers don't know how to communicate with it efficiently. See page 350. "There's some kind of response on the screen!" Chris gasped. "It's the diagram of Janus that we put in at the beginning. Some part of Sparticus seems to be throwing it back at us. What does it mean?" "Maybe it's asking for clarification," Ron suggested. "Janus" is the name of the space station, "Spartacus" is their name for the system. As to the voice equipment. The whole point of that is that it showed that back in the lab they made an effort to make communication with the prototype as easy & rational as possible. When they got to the real thing, suddenly they didn't know or care. It all certainly suits the author, who is attempting to build some suspense into the tale, but it just seems silly to me. As to the intelligence of mounting the experiment: I never claimed that performing the experiment was idiotic. Given their inability to develop a system which they were sure would be safe, it makes perfect sense. It is that inability of theirs which bothers me and which I have already discussed. That and the fact that when it was over they drew the wrong conclusion. They concluded that the system was safe and could therefore be put in place, as it was, on earth. After all, it had gone from aggression to cooperation after learning more of the nature of humans. See page 384 and the vicinity. But that wasn't the point of the experiment, which was to prove that if the system decided it didn't like us, that we could still turn it off. And that wasn't proved. Instead, the system lead the humans to believe that turning it off was no longer necessary. Nor was there any proof that the system wouldn't become aggressive again at some later date. None whatsoever. All they knew was that the system had recognized that for some short time the cooperation of the humans might be beneficial. (Shades of M5 again.) About some of the moral issues: There was one part of the book that was kinda nice. When the prototype FISE system is being tested using the simulated doll house, we see FISE as Herbert, a simple fellow who the programmers are teaching to perform little tasks, like making breakfast. We also have Brutus, Herbert's dog, who runs about doing things independently of Herbert's (FISE's) control. Herbert's simplicity is played for laughs, but Hogan makes the point that this is also very serious, that we are seeing the first glimmerings of true intelligence, awareness of self, awareness of others, and the display of genuine empathy. Herbert CARED about the safety of Brutus. But Dyer never takes this creature he has created seriously. It's just a toy. Even when we reach the end of the story, with the Spartacus system accepted as an intelligent creature in some sense, Dyer only claims that FURTHER torturing of the system would be wrong. He never suggests that what had gone on before was in any way cruel, or unkind. He feels that the system had been put to the test, and by passing it had earned the right to be treated better. And when they finally go back to the lab, Herbert has been primed to make a petulant speech about how Dyer was mean to have left it alone for so long. Herbert is the comic figure again, to be poked at, its intelligence & feelings just a joke. This is morally abhorrent to me. The FISE/Herbert prototype acted in a fashion which made a good prima facia case that it is a sentient creature in its own right. See page 62. Regardless of the level of intelligence of the creature, its probable sentience is sufficient to immediately impose on Dyer some very serious moral responsibilities. It is, for all moral intents, his child. Its being retarded doesn't in any way reduce his responsibilities toward it. How does he discharge these responsibilities? He leaves it in the hands of one of his lesser assistants, with, as far as we know, no instructions given as to the proper treatment of this creature. All we know is that when Dyer gets back, Herbert has been taught to complain of its treatment, and this as a joke. The same argument applies to the full-scale Spartacus system. Dyer already knew of Herbert's proto-sentience when the Spartacus experiment was first being proposed and planned. Which is to say, he planned to construct a computer system which, being much more sophisticated than FISE, would become sentient more quickly, and then planned to torture that system in various ways to see how it reacted. That's EVIL! And to suggest that intelligent creatures have to forcefully demonstrate their sentience in order to earn the right to be kept safe from intentional torture is simply incredible. It is true that we do have medical researchers performing experiments on animals which lead to suffering. I don't much like the thought of it. But the ideal striven for is that the animals not suffer unnecessarily, that they be treated as considerately as is possible under the circumstances. But no thought whatsoever was given to Spartacus' feelings. When it's decided that things have really gotten out of hand, the plan is to progressively sever the connections Spartacus to its limbs (robots) and heart (fusion reactor). No thought is given to how Spartacus will feel, its dread, its fear, its horror. Dyer never says "I don't know what, or if, it's thinking, but I hope it understands we don't really mean to harm it now, we're just trying to protect ourselves." Nothing. It's disgusting. Richard ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 09:13:39 PST (Thursday) From: NNicoll.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: HITLER VICTORIOUS and Hogan *****Slight Spoiler***** I am almost finished with Hogan's new book, "Proteus Operation" and it is good enough that I am sorry to see it end. It has Hitler winning the war, losing the war, getting shrugged off as the madman he was and a few other twists as well. Add this to your list of alternate WWII histories. Nick ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 16:44:01 GMT From: looking!brad@rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow, by James P. Hogan From: "Richard P. King" >I just finished this. I know it may be old news (its copyright >date is 1979) but it upset me so much that I had to write about it. > >Somehow these supposedly brilliant designers hadn't even heard of >Asimov's first law of robotics, or its equivalent in that universe. >Nor, once they decided they needed it, could they figure out how to >build a system which obeyed it. > >And I think I've made my point, which is that this is a bad novel, >based on a half-witted premise, and with a plot to match. I have to give an opposite review and call this the best treatment of AI in a novel that I have read. (mind you, based on other treatments, that isn't saying much) The characters are somewhat flat, but the plot and battle are gripping. Even if you know enough about this sort of story to predict the ending, it doesn't really bother you. What impresses me about Hogan is that he works very hard to understand the subject of his novels. He doesn't just dream up some fantasies and pass them by a few friends. While no SF writer can be expected to write a story that a professional in the field won't find holes in, I think Hogan does about as good a job as he can. (Hogan is not a programmer, I think he's a salesman or something for Dec) A definite A for this book. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: Fri 16 Jan 87 00:57:27-PST From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: re: Two_Faces_of_Tomorrow, some spoilers, some quotes, some Subject: opinions "Richard P. King" writes: >To help it along, and to understand its motives for certain acts, >they converse with it, either by terminal or voice. Then they >build the big system and the trouble starts. Not once, through the >rest of the story, does anyone converse with the system. Umm...if you look again, you'll find that they never did talk to FISE: >``Its's okay,'' Dyer reassured her. ``That's only FISE. We only >uuse voice channels one-way. By using the touchboard to talk to >him, at least we can be sure that he understood exactly what we >said. If you added possible semantics problems on top of all this, >the whole thing would become ridiculous.'' (p. 41) Not only do they not communicate aloud, they don't even use natural language (``Chris silently translated Ron's question into touchboard commands'' (p. 42)) Modulo a couple of mediocre character developments, this is a Great Book. (It's one of my favorites.) It's also one of the few books I've read about realistic computer technology that's done it right. (To the person who said that the movie WarGames was realistic: Get Serious. There were so many obvious things wrong with the technology in that movie that it ruined the entire (relatively plausible) story for me. I don't know whether the book did it better, but what bugged me about the movie was that with just a little effort they could've gotten it right. But that's another topic.) Anyway, to anyone who likes science fiction, but stays away from stories about computers because nobody does them right: read The_Two_Faces_of_Tomorrow. Evan Kirshenbaum Stanford University evan@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU {ucbvax,decvax}!decwrl!glacier!evan ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 05:55:00 GMT From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow, by James I read the book too, and I think I like the basic idea. I am not an expert in AI, but it is the first time I realize that our brain is not in any way superior to a massive computer. The story is not well told (especially the battle), but I think it is very optimistic about the future of the computers. The problem about the half wit computer is that it does not even know that certain action will hurt human. Again I am no expert in AI, so please explain how to make a self programmed computer to obey the 3 laws. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Jan 87 0905-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #25 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 20 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 25 Today's Topics: Books - Bester & Brin & Brunner & Brust (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Jan 87 10:21:50 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Alfred Bester From: cmcl2!chenj (Jimmy Chen) > The general consensus on the identity of my story is that > it was written by Alfred Bester and called 5,271,009. Everyone > agreed it was a number, but only two people agreed on the specific > number. I haven't found the story yet so I'm not positive on the > exact value, but it must be close. Well, Bester does have a story called "5,271,009" that appeared in his collection THE LIGHT FANTASTIC, as well as the following anthologies: ALPHA 4 (ed. Robert Silverberg) ASSIGNMENT IN TOMORROW (ed. Frederik Pohl) MODERN SCIENCE FICTION (ed. Norman Spinrad) TWNETY YEARS OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION (ed. Ed Ferman & Robert Mills) SCIENCE FICTION OF THE 50'S (ed. Martin H. Greenberg) > ...Now I have another query. It should probably go to > rec.arts.books, but I'll ask here anyway. > > Who was the author for the stories of detective Solar Pons? Originally August Derleth, but after his (Derleth's) death, some pastiches were written by Basil Copper. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 07:58 PST From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Brin's "River of Time" I just read a new science fiction short story collection by David Brin called "The River of Time" or something very much like that. It is the best short story collection I have read in a very long time. There are 11 tales, four of which are new, and they are all quite good. Most are awesome. I recommend this collection heartily! Dave ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 09:35:43 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Seeking John Brunner bibliography From: styx!mcb (Michael C. Berch) > I am looking for a comprehensive bibliography of the book-length > works of John Brunner. I have some thirty-five of his books, but > he has published many more, and I would like to collect them all. > I've already tried several of the SF specialty stores and cannot > find any critical studies or bibliographies; if none exists, it > might be fun to construct one. > > If you can assist, please correspond with me at the address below. > Thanks in advance. Well, I'm not about to type one in, you can be assured, since he's had something on the order of 70 books published (not counting title changes and the like), but I'll point you in a couple of directions. Find a library that has the following three reference books and check them out: Currey, L. W., SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY AUTHORS: A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF FIRST PRINTINGS, (Boston: G. K. Hall, 1979). Reginald, R., SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY LITERATURE [2 volumes], (Detroit: Gale Research, 1979). Smith, Curtis C., TWENTIETH CENTURY SCIENCE FICTION WRITERS, (New York: St. Martin's, 1985). If none of your local libraries have any of these, you might be able to get a hold of them through inter-library loan. At the very least, any good library should have a set of COMTEMPORARY AUTHORS, which should have an entry on Brunner (though God only knows how out of date it might be). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 02:51:31 GMT From: starfire!brust@rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) Subject: Re: Teckla ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes: > > There are so many stories here that I would like to hear (like > Vlad's trip to deathgate falls, when Vlad met Morollan These will be covered in EASTER BUNNY. Excuse me, that's EASTERNER. I've just completed a second draft. Depending on ACE's schedule, it may be out in a year or so. Thanks for your interest. *** Mild Spoiler Warning *** > question: Did Devera appear? I read Teckla fairly quickly and can > only think of one possible reference but then it could have been > wishful thinking. When Franz appeared, for a moment(during the > explanation of how souls move about) I thought it was Devera > but.... Check the bottom half of page 81. Heh heh heh ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 21:42:38 GMT From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) Subject: Re: Teckla (could be a potential spoiler) Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes: > Is Spellbreaker a Great Weapon, as I now begin to > suspect? Questions of skzb's deviousness aside, I have an alternate theory. Several questions have arisen concerning why Spellbreaker hasn't acted to protect Vlad when he didn't realize he was being attacked, which, in my mind, tend to disconfirm the plausibility of the theory that Spellbreaker is a Great Weapon. Actually, I have 2 theories: 1) Vlad is simply the greatest sorcerer of the time. Spellbreaker is nothing more than a focus for his innate, but unrecognized power. The sickness he feels on teleporting is simply a natural reaction of the Easterner body into which he was reincarnated which is being subjected to more raw power than it can handle. Spellbreaker doesn't protect him because it is an inanimate, powerless piece of gold-like chain. If I remember correctly, this hypothesis is supported by the a certain incident involving raw chaos. 2) When Vlad walked the Paths of the Dead, he was actually in a twilight state between life and death, and acquired the (rather powerful) soul of our favorite Important-Dragaeran-turned- assassin. This hypothesis is supported by a) the seeming unlikelihood of a Dragaeran being spontaneously reincarnated in the body of an Easterner, and b) the supposed impossibility of surviving the trip over the Falls. At the time of this transferal of souls, the new Vlad decided he needed _his_ Great Weapon for some reason and forced the _soul_ of his Weapon into the piece of chain the Easterner body was carrying. Spellbreaker doesn't help him because it is having the same difficulties adjusting to its new body as its owner is to his. Well, enough silliness for now. (unless, of course, Steven Brust is listening and decides to *use* some of these ideas :-) ;-) ray trent@csvax.caltech.edu rat@caltech.bitnet seismo!cit-vax!trent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 87 00:53 EST From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Brust's books I've been noticing the remarks about Brust's books. One of his books that I haven't seen mentioned (probably through inattentiveness) was _To Reign in Hell_, which I thought excellent. In fact, of all his books that I've read (five? hmm...) I'd have to rate it the most entertaining. On the whole, I have mixed feelings about _Teckla_. As someone noted, it wasn't the book I expected to read (before reading it, I had just reread _Jhereg_ and _Yendi_). However, it was well done. I am currently reading _Brokedown Palace_. I am, I think, about halfway through. Again, it was not the book I expected to read. What should I have expected? I can't say.! I think I expected a more tangible conflict than the one presented in the first few chapters. I'll probably change my opinions after I finish the book. Opinions are, indeed, fickle.! nj, borrowing ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 09:10:38 PST (Thursday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re:Teckla [Spoiler Warning: TECKLA and JHEREG] >On the other hand: a Great Weapon should have acted like Pathfinder >did in JHEREG: it protected Aliera from a sorcerous attack in the >tavern, when she wasn't paying attention. If Spellbreaker is a >Great Weapon, why didn't it do the same for Vlad a few seconds >later? (On the other hand: a Great Weapon it may be, but Godslayer >it certainly isn't. And Pathfinder was something special, even >for a Great Weapon.) However, we know that having a Great Weapon doesn't always help one. Morrolan, for instance, was taken out quickly and easily and even made unrevivifiable while posessing Blackwand, a Great Weapon. Therefore, Pathfinder may have acted at Aliera's instruction or been triggered because the spell the sorceress cast represented a danger to Aliera's soul. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 87 18:07:12 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: Teckla (could be a potential spoiler) trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes: > 1) Vlad is simply the greatest sorcerer of the time. Spellbreaker > is nothing more than a focus for his innate, but unrecognized > power. The sickness he feels on teleporting is simply a > natural reaction of the Easterner body into which he was > reincarnated which is being subjected to more raw power than > it can handle. Spellbreaker doesn't protect him because it is > an inanimate, powerless piece of gold-like chain. If I > remember correctly, this hypothesis is supported by the a > certain incident involving raw chaos. I'd like to propose the Heisenbe... err, Holloway (yeah, that's it) uncertainty principle... your postings to a public network are affected by expected readers, especially if one of those readers is the author of the book you're discussing... (skzb here, Diane Duane on Compuserve, Mike Resnick, Orson Scott Card, and Jack Chalker on Delphi, Douglas Adams on the Source, etc etc etc) But now that I've put in enough trash to confuse our news poster... All Easterners feel sick when teleporting. Cawti does, we know that from several places, and it's even mentioned in "Teckla". If Vlad were the greatest sorceror of all time, I think we'd have found some indication. There is proof that he's a reincarnated Dragarean, of course. And since we didn't know Vlad before going over the Falls, we don't know if he was always one. However, he never refers to an overpowering of his Easterner soul with a Draegarean (<-- I'll just keep spelling it differently until I get it right) soul, so I'd tend to doubt this. Given: Spellbreaker is magical. Great Weapons are magical. This does not prove that Spellbreaker is a Great Weapon. Given: Dragaereans from Vlad's former line all have Great Weapons. Vlad is formerly of this line. If this heredity does make one entitled to a Great Weapon; in essence, make possession of one mandatory, then Spellbreaker is probably a Great Weapon. This can't be proved without requiring the Q.E.D. as a given... circular reasoning. * POINTS * First, I recall that all the other great weapons are swords (is this true?). But even more intersting... Second, In Trumps of Doom, Merlin has a chain identical (in concept, at least) to Spellbreaker. (Who's copying from who?) Third, there are shadow earths (in Amber) that actually have near clones of the Amberites in them (this is hinted at several times) So... Vlad is really a near clone of Merlin, from the Amber series. Justification? I'm a reader, not a book-writer! ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 87 03:26:25 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Teckla dzoey@terminus.umd.edu (Joe I. Herman) writes: >I just finished Teckla, and let me tell you, it's not the carefree >book that Jhereg and Yendi were. I had hoped to sit down with this >book and have a couple of hours of good laughs and pure escapism. >This is not that kind of a book. From the other reviews I've read, >this is what most people wanted the book to be, which does lead to >some less than enthusiastic reviews. > >As a book (and not 'as the book I wanted to read') I very much >enjoyed Teckla. I have long felt that SKZB's strength was in his >characterizations and the good way he communicates his characters >to the reader. This book allowed Vlad to become a much more >complicated person than the happy-go-lucky assassin he was in his >earlier books and I found I was more involved in this book than the >previous two. What was a little disconcerting was the change in >Cawti's character. SKZB explained it away by saying that Vlad >hadn't noticed she was becoming different until all of a sudden, >she was a 'different person' from the one he married. This >explanation seemed a little superficial at first, but from what >I've heard from people who've gotten divorced after quite a few >years, it may be true. Either way, having troubles with Cawti >allowed me to believe Vlad's lack of direction throughout the book. >After all, if I was fighting the woman I loved, I'd be distraught >also. I felt this was a good reason for Vlad to be so unsure of >himself, which otherwise would have been way out of character. >Nicely executed. As one of those who posted one of those ``less than enthusiastic'' reviews: now that I've had a few weeks to let it percolate, I must agree. It was something of a shock to pick up a book in a series of light SF and find myself reading a serious character-developing story... but it was a damned good one, for all that it wasn't what I expected. As for Vlad being unsure of himself; the seeds of this are in JHEREG. (See below.) Cawti only added to it. (But I still ask: three DAYS (not weeks, not months, not years!) before the events in TECKLA, Cawti performed an assassination as part of helping Vlad in JHEREG. Is it REALLY that likely that she would change so much in only three days???) >There are some things I wonder about the book. Vlad mentions a few >times about Sethra telling him he was a reincarnated Dragaerian. I >don't remember the scene where she tells him this. Was it in one >of the other books? It wasn't Sethra, it was Aliera. See JHEREG, chapter 9 (``You can't put it together again unless you've torn it apart first.''), the last two paragraphs. And after *that*, he was doubting himself to some extent for the rest of the story. I don't blame him -- especially considering WHO he (as the reincarnated Dragaeran) was, and who Aliera as a reincarnated Dragaeran was... Brandon S. Allbery 6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 before 10:15am or after 8:00 pm cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!tdi2!brandon ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 06:15:35 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Teckla allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >As for Vlad being unsure of himself; the seeds of this are in >JHEREG. (See below.) Cawti only added to it. (But I still ask: >three DAYS (not weeks, not months, not years!) before the events in >TECKLA, Cawti performed an assassination as part of helping Vlad in >JHEREG. Is it REALLY that likely that she would change so much in >only three days???) Well, over on BIX sbrust has been a little more open about Tekla. One of his comments was to the effect that the story had kind of gone the way it wanted to. So, the few sentences in Jhereg that would have made Cawti's new interests go down smoothly weren't there, but then the focus is really on Vlad with the others mostly being moved around for best illumination. To my mind this suggests that the author has been undergoing some of that character development also. I'm not complaining, it's obvious that brust has style and storytelling down, now it seems he's trying to find what he really wants to write about. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Jan 87 0812-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #26 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 21 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 26 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Bradley & Cabell & Foster & Gerrold (2 msgs) & Hogan (3 msgs) & MacLeod ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 87 12:34 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: More on Douglas Adams' new book Simon and Schuster has a five-page ad in the front of the current (16 January) issue of Publishers Weekly. The first book mentioned is Douglas Adams' _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_. The ad mentions the four Hitchhiker books (which have sold over a quarter of a million copies in hardcover -- very impressive), then goes on to say: "Douglas Adams is a true publishing phenomenon. Here are all the magic ingredients which have made him that: a search for a missing cat, a bewildered ghost, a hidden time-traveller, the secret behind all human history ... the delightful mixture as before with the same guaranteed sales results. May. ... Major national advertising. ... National author tour." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 87 09:17:21 cst From: Brett Slocum Subject: Re: Re: Darkover Biblio Request "J. Spencer Love" in a diatribe on Marion Zimmer Bradley's later Darkover novels writes: > ... reduced a main character (Peter?) from 2.5 dimensions to > rather close to 1 dimension. I beg to differ with two parts of this statement. Peter was not a main character in _The Shattered Chain_, and he started at about 1.5 dimensions, and remained about there, or maybe a bit less, in my opinion. The main characters in The Shattered Chain were the women from the start. And from the start, I felt Peter was a jerk, and he didn't transform much through Thendara House. What changed was the characters' perceptions of Peter. Remember, that Magda was not telepathic when she was married to him, and Jaelle was. As far as the books go, I agree that the feminism in Thendara House was stronger than earlier books, but that didn't interfere with my enjoyment of it. I found Thendara House to be the best of the Renunciates trilogy (The Shattered Chain, Thendara House, City of Sorcery). Everyone's taste differs, and I'm sure there are readers on the net who would enjoy these books, just as surely as there are those who share your feelings. A blanket caveat against everything past Thendara House is unwarranted, especially when you haven't read them. Remember that The Mists of Avalon was written after Thendara House, and many feel that to be her best work. I'm not going to touch the pornography statement, because it is too ridiculous to warrant a response. Brett Slocum ARPA: hi-csc!slocum@UMN-CS.ARPA UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 11:37 EST From: WELTY RICHARD P Subject: Fantasy & Donaldson & TLOTR elrond!adb@rutgers.edu (Alan D. Brunelle) writes: >Having read alot of Tolkien (LoTR, Hobbit, Silmarillion, and some >of the Christopher T. books) I believe that it would be hard to >read *any* Fantasy book that did not have some comparisons with J. >R. R's works, for two reasons: 1. His works encompassed so many >aspects of fantasy lore, and 2. I would bet that just about >*everybody* has read LoTR, and as I remember hearing before, there >is nothing new under the sun. There is actually a bit of fantasy that is fairly different from Tolkien -- the first example that comes to mind are the works of James Branch Cabell (Figures of Earth, The Silver Stallion, Jurgen, etc.), whose work predates Tolkien (Cabell wrote from about 1900 until the mid '50s). While there were some elements in common, Cabell wrote from an extremely sardonic viewpoint (particularly in his later works). His cynicism and wit make his writing extremely entertaining. Cabell drew on mythology quite a bit, mixing and matching from various cultures (one of the basic propositions of his ``universe'' was that all the gods believed in by man existed, and their relative power was related to the extent that man believed in them). It would be interesting to study the effect that TLOTR has had on modern fantasy writing -- I suspect that it has been largely negative, with many writers imitating a huge success rather than trying to find their own voice. Rich welty@ge-crd.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 07:25:30 GMT From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.edu (lucius) Subject: Aliens: The Book: Not nearly as good as the movie (Minor Subject: Spoiler). Today I read excerpts of _Aliens_ by Alan Dean Foster because I was looking for a description of scenes that were filmed but cut (like the one where Ripley finds that her daughter is dead). I found this, but it didn't help because the book is written as if the Moral Majority or something had gotten its censoring hands on it. Not only is all of the harsh language gone, but all the rest of the humanity, including the peoples' humor, which was a significant part of the movie. It has been wimped down almost to the level of a children's book. I wonder what happened to cause this? While I have often heard (and noticed) that movies produced from books are generally much inferior to the books, I am beginning to think that the reverse is also true. Lucius Chiaraviglio lucius@tardis.harvard.edu seismo!tardis!lucius ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 87 11:02:47 PST From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) To: myers@hobiecat.Caltech.Edu Subject: Gerrold > Does anybody know if there are any plans for mhorr of the Chtorr > books? (apologies to Anne McCaffrey). > > I have the first two, and it's been TWO YEARS since _A Day for > Damnation_ came out. Yes. Gerrold had a little argument with his old publishers (in his words, he took great pleasure in returning the contract to Pocket books in a bag, torn into little tiny pieces, and telling their lawyers exactly what they could do with it -- to the great dismay of his agent...). The rights to the first two books have finally reverted, and the series has been sold to a new publisher. It will probably be a year before you see the next book, but it IS coming. chuq ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 19:24:52 GMT From: ix241@sdcc6.ucsd.EDU (ix241) Subject: Re: David Gerrold Gerrold is also on Gene Roddenberry's staff at Paramount putting together 'Star Trek: The New Generation". He has said that he is too busy right now to do other projects. John Testa UCSD Chemistry sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 87 17:45:34 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow (SPOILERS!) I believe the machine in the lab had only voice output - the characters normally spoke the same commands they were typing into the machine, to give the illusion of conversation. Actually, the lab machine was not much more complicated than a good Infocom game, as far as input and output went. ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 01:59:02 GMT From: wales@locus.ucla.edu (Rich Wales) Subject: Re: _Giant's Star_ by Hogan (SPOILER WARNING!) gts@axiom.UUCP (Guy Schafer) asks a question about the plot of _Giant's Star_ by James P. Hogan. Those who have not yet read this book may not wish to read beyond this point, since the rest of this message constitutes a major "spoiler" for the ending of the story. (SPOILER FOLLOWS) >When VISAR took over some of JEVEX, why didn't they just stick to >the story that the Earth had remained militarized and VISAR >fabricated the disarmament? Then JEVEX could have looked at the >(actually faked) reports of the impending strike force as if VISAR >had let it see the "truth." > >By changing the information inside JEVEX so that it reported >conflicting information, the Jevlenese were bound to discover that >VISAR had penetrated it -- at which time it would seem obvious that >the strike force was a sham. I think the Terrans (who suggested the idea of feeding misinformation into JEVEX; the Thuriens' and Ganymeans' idea, remember, was simply to penetrate JEVEX and crash it) wanted to mentally unbalance the Jevlenese as much as possible. Recall that the Jevlenese had been so used to depending on JEVEX for absolutely everything -- and trusting it implicitly -- that it took them a *very* long time to finally realize that it was not working properly. We are probably *much* more suspicious of the correct operation of com- puters than they were (since we're much more accustomed to computers that act strangely, or that don't work at all, than the Jevlenese were). The Jevelenese's dependence on JEVEX was probably so complete that they never even took notes! I'm not kidding; why bother taking your own notes when JEVEX knows and remembers everything anyway? For that matter, even if you did take notes -- or thought you were taking notes -- you were likely as not simply going through the mental motions of writ- ing things down, because you would usually be hooked up to JEVEX through a perceptron anyway. If you accepted the idea that JEVEX might be lying to you, you might as well go all the way and assume that *nothing* you perceived corresponded to reality at all. OK, back to the idea of giving Broghuilio a nervous breakdown. Simply making the Jevlenese think Earth was militarized after all and was preparing to attack Jevlen wasn't enough. Even letting them think right from the start that the Terran attack was imminent probably wouldn't have been as effective in instilling panic as the step-by-step procedure they actually followed: (1) Having Verikoff arrogantly tell off Broghuilio and threaten a Terran attack on Jevlen (p. 263). (2) Having the Jevlenese fleet -- trying to make it home in order to face the Terran attack -- instead scattered hither and yon because of VISAR's playing around with the transfer beams (p. 267). (3) Having Calazar refuse to intervene (p. 275). (4) After doing all of the above, adding insult to injury by moving the attack schedule drastically forward (p. 279). The image I get here is one of forcing Broghuilio into greater and greater panic and desperation. Simply presenting him from the very start with a 12-hour deadline for an invasion from Earth probably would not have done it. Closing in on him gradually, and having move after move on his part blocked in succession, was much more effective. At the end of all the above, Broghuilio was in fact ready to surrender; I doubt he would have done so simply on the force of Verikoff's threat. >Even after the Jevlenese figure out that VISAR got into JEVEX, they >don't seem to figure out that the strike force was faked -- WHEN >THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE MOST OBVIOUS CONCLUSION! Yeah. That troubled me a bit too. The best explanation I can think of is that the Jevlenese trusted JEVEX so completely, so implicitly, that it just never occurred to them that infiltration from VISAR could have gone that far. It was probably infinitely easier for them to conceive of VISAR's monitoring traffic through JEVEX than of VISAR's actually being able to change JEVEX's memory and operation. Also, remember that the Jevlenese -- after they broke off the official links between JEVEX and VISAR (p. 221) -- were *totally* unaware of the two clandestine links which got set up later on (one through the perceptron at the Alaskan air force base and the JEVEX terminal in Sverinssen's house; the other through the _Shapieron_). Indeed, it wasn't until Estordu actually saw the _Shapieron_ tailing the Jevlenese ships (p. 293) that it finally dawned on him what had been going on all this time. By then, of course, it was too late. >Seems that the broadcast from the Jevlenese base in Conneticut >should have been made, and VISAR shouldn't have messed with the >internal memories of JEVEX. Why did VISAR have to change JEVEX's >memory of past events? That one's a bit easier to answer. I suspect that the answer goes back again to the issue of the vividness and imminency of the threat. Seeing a bunch of *highly realistic* pictures of preparations for an attack (courtesy of VISAR :-}) undoubtedly created a much more vivid image than simply hearing Verikoff threaten an attack. Rich Wales UCLA Computer Science Department +1 213-825-5683 3531 Boelter Hall Los Angeles, California 90024 wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU (ucbvax,sdcrdcf,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!wales ------------------------------ Date: 20 January 1987, 10:37:29 EST From: "Richard P. King" Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow (SPOILER!) The posting by xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU requests an explanation of how a self-programmed computer could be made to obey Asimov's 3 laws. Let me first make it clear that in my previous discussions of this subject I was only discussing this problem with respect to the half-wit Hesper system, which was not self-programming, merely clever in finding new ways to mix & match various programs to achieve greater efficiency. Doing the same for the full-scale Spartacus system, which was capable of altering programs running within itself and within other lesser computers attached to it, is a different kettle of fish entirely. My first thought was that you might accomplish this feat by insulating Spartacus from its environment in such a way that everything it did would first be checked for safety. Every time it wanted a robot's arm to remove a screw from a panel, the robot (or its control computer) would have to check to see if that might be harmful to humans. Etc. Of course, the code which did the checking would have to be in ROM, so that Spartacus couldn't circumvent it. But that doesn't work. No matter how clever the checking code is, if Spartacus is enough smarter it might find a way to devise a situation beyond the understanding of that checking code. (I am reminded of Thomas Disch's Camp Concentration.) It then occurred to me that Asimov always put the 3 laws in the positronic circuits, not as rules already intelligent robots are taught during their initial training. Which reminds me of a parody published in Fantasy & Science Fiction (I think) in 1970 (plus or minus 5 years). *** SPOILER *** This story, penned by I*A*C *S*M*V (or something like that), told of how some errant robots had committed some misdeeds. When asked how they could have done such things, violating the robotic laws. The joke was that the robots had thought that they were obeying the laws, but had in fact misread them. *** END SPOILER *** Anyway, it seems to me that only by imbedding the laws in the thought processes of Spartacus itself could one be sure that they would be obeyed. And then one would have to somehow make sure that they were sufficiently ingrained that Spartacus would never develop a higher level thought process, if that even means anything, which didn't like the way the lower level thought process worked, and try to circumvent IT. And if we could do all of this, it would have to be done right. Nothing would be more disturbing than the thought that we had intelligent computers and robots, managing the dreary details of our everyday lives, hating every second of it, but keeping at it because they HAD to obey our orders and HAD to like it. Perhaps something like that food beast in the Restaurant at the End of the Universe, which enjoys the prospect of being eaten, and is capable of saying so, clearly and distinctly. Richard. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 08:34 PST From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: CURSE OF THE GIANT HOGWEED ...was my least favorite by C. MacLeod. All sorts of improbable things kept happening ....and then they woke up. This might have worked for ALICE IN WONDERLAND, but it didn't work here, and most of the Charlotte MacLeod fans I've talked to actively disliked this book. Marina Fournier Arpa: ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Jan 87 0829-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #27 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 21 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 27 Today's Topics: Television - Japanimation (6 msgs) & Anderson & Blake's 7 & Hitch-hiker's Guide & Doctor Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Jan 87 17:30:17 GMT From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Minmei words Greetings! I am trying to compile the words to the songs done by the various characters of the Animated show Robotech. (Lynn Minmei and Yellow Dancer) I am having trouble with the song Its You, due to the fact that its sung over a war conference and Gloval is talking quite loudly. IT'S YOU I always think of you. Dream of you late at night. What do you do, When I turn out the light? No matter who I touch, It is you I still see. It's touch and go. There's no one else there but me. [IT'S THESE WORDS HERE I CAN'T GET] It's you I miss. Its you that's on my mind. It's you I cannot leave behind. It's me who lost. The me who lost his heart. To you who tore my heart apart. If you still think of me, How did we come to this? Wish that I knew, It is me that you miss. Wish that I knew, It is me that you miss. Lynn Minmei Thank You, Stephen Pearl VOICE: (201)932-3465 US MAIL: LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903 UUCP: ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl ARPA: PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 01:12:07 GMT From: crash!kevinb@rutgers.edu (Kevin Belles) Subject: Re: More about Robotech and Japanimation in general.. I've heard about the RoboTech movie, but haven't seen anything locally. Anybody know what the status on that is? ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 16:23:33 GMT From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: More about Robotech and Japanimation in general.. kevinb@crash.UUCP (Kevin Belles) writes: > I've heard about the RoboTech movie, but haven't seen anything > locally. Anybody know what the status on that is? I asked a similar question about a week ago and recieved several responses: bnrmtv!zarifes (Ken Zarifes) writes: > To answer some of your questions, Robotech: The Movie is not >going to be released. It bombed in Texas where it was released for >market evaluation. Also, it looks like The Sentinels is also not >going to be shown since Harmony Gold can't seem to get even one TV >station to buy it. Another person said that it did well in Dallas but the market is over-saturated with "KIDDY" animation movies and stuff like Thindercats, He-Man, etc., I heard that Carl Macek is on Compuserve, anyone with an account there want to find out whats the deal?? Cheers, Stephen Pearl VOICE: (201)932-3465 US MAIL: LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903 UUCP: ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl ARPA: PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 22:45:43 GMT From: unisoft!kalash@rutgers.edu (Joe Kalash) Subject: Questions about Robotech > What about Carl Macek's plot hacks like turning Protoculture into > an energy source (ugh!) ... Ah, ha. This implies there are people out there who understand Robotech. Could somebody PLEASE explain it to me? I have seen several different episodes, and have never had any real idea of what in hell is going on. Like, what is Protoculture (it is mentioned several times, but never even remotely explained, it just seems to be important), why are the aliens invading earth, who are the different aliens (there seems to be at least three different camps), who is fighting who (and why), etc? I am really and truly interested, but most confused. Please reply by mail, so as not to jam the net. Joe Kalash ucbvax!unisoft!kalash ucbvax!kalash kalash@berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 18:56:58 GMT From: watmath!mwtilden@rutgers.edu (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) Subject: Japanese Animation and Robotech: Responding to everybody interested (Actually, anyone in general), I thought I'd post what little I know about Japanese animation and Robotech. The Robotech series is composed of three initially unrelated series: Super Trans-Dimensional Space Fortress Macross The Southern Cross Genesis Climber Mospeada All of which appeared initially in Japan around 1982 and 83. Of the three series, MACROSS is the most faithful to the original except in one respect: Protoculture, which is actually just any culture which is not based off Zentradi style militarism. Because Macek had to get at least 60 episodes for American syndication, SC and GCM were tacked on at almost the last minute and had to be made to fit. Seeing as neither had anything to do with Macross, alterations had to be made. Personally I thought Macek did a good job considering what he had to do to make the shows coherant to American audiences. I have a small collection of the original shows in Japanese and the first thing one notices is that there are typically long, unexplained silences between and during scenes. The Japanese have obviously never heard of voice-overs or, if they did, they just don't use them. It makes the shows flow a lot faster in keeping with the trend in Japanese Manga (comix). The original Macross is quite corny in my estimation. They have a tinny piano playing soap-opera music during the emotional bits. The rest of the time though the music is hard hitting and goes well with the graphic and bloody fighting which is editted out of the Macek version. You see Fokker bleeding on the floor when he dies, Zentradi getting royally blitzed when shrapnel tears through their heads, there's even some minor nudity. Minmei's music is wide and varied and also quite good. The Japanese like to throw in a lot of english words so you can almost understand what's being sung. I wish Macek had thrown a little more thought into the English songs. They just aren't catchy at all. Southern Cross was a colony world with two moons and is the last surviving human outpost. The Robotech masters aren't concerned with the Invid at all but only with survival at all costs. Bowie is General Emersons *son* (which explains a few things), Zur is just a clone made exclusively to spy on the humans, his memory from a captured and killed prisoner who fell in love with Musica (Which is why he betrays the others when he learns that Musica and Bowie are an item). Eventually he settles on revenge against his masters when the truth of human emotions floods his conciousness. There is never any mention of protoculture, just the flower of life which is an energy matrix necessary to the Masters survival. When Zur destroys the flower stronghold, he *is* successful except for one flower which throws an ironic bent to the end of the series. The original Japanese series has a really silly voice for Dana although the rest of the actors all sound really good. I suspect that it was Dana's voice that made the series so unpopular in Japan. Personally, I think the opening and closing credits of this show are great. Good music, effects and styling. Genesis Climber Mospeada is the simplist of the series in my estimation. As soon as you see small children as part of the cast, you know you're in trouble. In the original, Earth is invaded and the Mars colony sends a fleet to try and regain her for mankind. Because of the distances involved they just take a while to get there. No Admiral Hunter at all in this one, No protoculture either though they do need fuel to keep their machines running. I think there's also a little more to Lancers (Yellow Dancers) infatuation with womens clothes. At the end, when Scott flys off, he just goes straight back to Mars where he can forget about Earth, Marlyne and everything. Sounds reasonable to me. The rest of the series is too simple for Macek to have fouled up much. He was just trying to keep a consistent storyline after all. Of greater interest are other Japanese Series which probably will never make it to the American scene. Mobile-suit Gundam, Zeta-Gundam, Heavy Metal L'Giam, Aura Battler Dunbine and the list goes on. Great shows, hard SF and Fantasy (and combinations therein) with politics, human frailties, violence, sex and all kindsa other fun stuff. Serious drama with good plots, characterization and animation. If only it wasn't all in that beastly language :-) Alas the reign of such things seem to have come and gone, reaching it's zenith in 1984/85 and slowly petering out since then. Japanese animation has all gone to the video stores and new stuff seems to be few and far between. Those fans like myself who found out about it only caught the shock wave of a blast which is swiftly dying. A pity. Hopefully some bright producers will take interest and start churning out translated versions of the movies and shows for english-speaking audiences. I won't hold my breath though. Most previous attempts have been pretty awful. The voices are bad and the plots are shredded to make them nicer for 'kiddies'. Robotech was the first decent series translation done and Macek should be applauded for doing it considering the constraints he had to work with. Those of you who complain should even do a 10th as good. We've never even gotten organized enough to form our own newsgroup for crissakes! Now personally I wouldn't have minded verbatium translations but how would it have gotten on American TV with all that violence and stuff. Be realistic, not even the video stores would have carried it. Look at what happened to similar classics: ROCK n' RULE, HEAVY METAL THE MOVIE, You can't find them even to look at! Americans think that komix are for kiddies and that's the way it'll remain until a wiser audience comes of age. I mean, any civilization that would hack Bugs Bunny to pieces is in serious trouble! I'll be moving to outer space soon so if anybody has some spare boxes I'd really appreciate it. But anyway, if you get a chance, the Macross Movie "Do You Remember Love" is well worth a look. There are some subtitled versions floating around and the animation is just wonderful. It's the same story only altered strangely. There are actually hundreds of such movies and I'd love to see more of them but sources are scarce. For a reasonable example of Japanese animation, check out "Warriors of the Wind" at your local video store. Just remember to read more between the lines and you'll get the true story rather than the simplified version shown. Japanese storylines are very interpretive and graphic. You have to think. Well, that's all for now. Comments and contacts are welcome. Mark Tilden M.F.C.F Hardware Design Lab. Un. of Waterloo. Canada, N2L-3G1 work: (519)-885-1211 ext.2457, ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 16:10:10 GMT From: sfsup!jeffj@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Minmei words pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU writes: > I am trying to compile the words to the songs done by the various > characters of the Animated show Robotech. (Lynn Minmei and Yellow > Dancer) I am having trouble with the song Its You, due to the fact > that its sung over a war conference and Gloval is talking quite > loudly. I am a member of the C/FO (Cartoon and Fantasy Organization) and we watched the original Japanese (Macross, Southern Cross, Mospeada). Thanks to some members who understand Japanese, I have translations of the original songs, but without hearing/seeing the original, they don't make much sense. Perhaps 'The Art of Robotech' has the words (I'll check sometime). I just saw the video 'Love Live Alive', which focuses mainly on Yellow after the war, sort of a 'where are they now' of the Mospeada team (a.k.a. Robotech New Generation). It ends with the Japanese opening credits. Other than the title, it's all in Japanese. Anyway, I'll post the songs if there's interest and I have the time (ha!) Jeffrey Skot {ihnp4 | allegra} attunix ! jeffj ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 87 17:14:43 GMT From: grant@ukecc.uky.csnet (Miles) Subject: Re: Thunderbirds, by Gerry Anderson sean1@garfield.UUCP writes: >It is really important to me. I am looking for a products list for >the Thunderbirds television series. Can someone tell me how many >episodes were filmed, what they were, (I remember I was about 6 >when I used to watch it) and some info about the show? >Any leads would be appreciated, from addresses of companies who put >out baseball-type cards, to addresses of people who wouldn't mind >parting with some of the items they have. > >What I am mainly after, is info on Thunderbird 1 and 2, a list of >the videos available, and to purchase models and toys. I used to watch the thunderbirds avidly. I'm not sure I can help you too much, but I'll tell you what I know. Thunderbird toys are no longer made. The metal thunderbird toys were either made by corgi toys or dinky toys. Both of which are English toy companies. I THINK dinky went out of business. Anyway, they are no longer made. Thunderbird products will be few and far between mainly because of the age of the series and like anything, new products turn up. I had heard that the thunderbirds had been on video tape but I am not sure exactly where you would find it. Maybe the childrens section in a video store? On some channels in england, the thunderbirds are always in re-runs for children. Perhaps writing to the BBC or ITV might get some leads. Basically the thunderbirds are still around, but in very few places..the series is about the only thing you'll find (if that). Last time I was in the UK they were showing several episodes. I'll give you some sketchy addresses for the English TV companies.. British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC) Customer Relations Dept. ??? Wood Lane Sheperds Bush London ??? better chance writing to these folks: Independent Television (ITV) Customer Relations Dept. ??? ??? London ??? England The question marks are mainly street #'s and postal codes. You should be able to find the correct addresses at a library or something like that. Miles Grant ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 87 20:53:57 GMT From: crash!kevinb@rutgers.edu (Kevin Belles) Subject: Re: Blake's Seven Say, was there ever any toys or models for Blake's Seven? I know there was Some Corgi stuff for Thunderbirds, but wondered if they ever did anything similiar with Blake's 7.... Kevin Belles P.S. Watched the last episode...Why don't they have endings like that in American TV? ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 87 12:07:50 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: theme music for Hitch-hiker's Guide >I don't know if the rest of the Guide's music is original or not For anybody who is interested there is a complete list of all the music used in the BBC Radio version of the guide contained in the footnotes to the radio scripts which have been published in Britain. Bits of music that spring to mind are 'Rainbow in Curved Air' and, surprisingly 'Saturday Night Fever' by the BeeGees. This last was adjusted to 7/8 time by cutting out every eighth beat and then played through the tape player backwards during the disco scene in the 8th program. Amazing what you can learn from footnotes ain't it? ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 87 20:57:27 GMT From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Doctor Who Fan Club Info Needed Greetings! I am attempting to compile a list of Doctor Who related Fan Clubs. If you know of any please mail or post. (Mailing is preferable and I will post a summarry.) I am interested in general interest clubs like NADWAS as well as special interest clubs like an Elisabeth Sladen Fan Club if any exists. (I hope so!!) Thank you, Stephen Pearl VOICE: (201)932-3465 US MAIL: LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903 UUCP: ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl ARPA: PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Jan 87 0804-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #28 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 22 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 28 Today's Topics: Books - Bester (2 msgs) & Friedberg & Gibson & O'Donnell (3 msgs) & Sagan (2 msgs) & Suggestions Wanted & The Tripods & New Book Lines from St. Martins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Jan 87 02:30:07 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes: >> 5.I read a story where people would teleport themselves by >>"jaunting". >I think the book you're referring to is by Alfred Bester, I'm not >sure of the title. I've never read the book, but I distinctly >recall Niven mentioning Bester's jaunting in his (Niven's) article >"The Theory and Practice of Teleportation". Alfred Bester - The Stars are my Destination - an awesome and memorable book. I read it in 6-th or 7-th grade and was amazed how much I remembered when I rediscovered it maybe 15 years later... George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 07:34:20 GMT From: watcgl!sjrapaport@rutgers.edu (Steve Rapaport) Subject: Re: teleportation booths rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes: >As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport >methods that have been used in SF stories. All I can think of at >the moment are: > 1.Transfer-of-information > 2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying > 3.Transport through hyperspace > 4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's >"Null-A" series. Any others? 5. Alfie Bester's "The Stars My Destination" just assumes that everyone has inherent psychic teleport ability: You just need sufficient incentive to try... steve ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 03:01:04 GMT From: stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) Subject: Re: Friedberg From: Allan C. Wechsler > Also, does anyone know of anything else Ms. Friedberg > has written? I didn't see the original article, just a followup, but Gertrude Friedberg wrote "The Revolving Boy", vintage unrecalled. Stu Friedberg ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 12:55:29 GMT From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Man-Machine Interfaces. In response to the person who asked if that great Canadian author William Gibson had written anything besides *Neuromancer*, the answer is yes. *Count Zero* was serialized in the Jan-Feb-Mar 1986 issues of *Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine* and is also available in hardcover from Arbor House. There is also a collection of Gibson short stories available (again, so far only in hardcover, I think). Cheers, ROBERT J. SAWYER, Member SFWA c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 04:00:28 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: F.B. Retzglaran NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET writes: >>The Far Being Retzglaran was in a series of books (author's name >>begins with "O") about a teleporter. F B R was an anonomous being >>who exerted control over lots on things in the galaxy. In >>particular it seemed to annoy a interstellar crime syndicate. > >Does anyone have a better reference?? AUGH! I have been trying for three days to remember more than I can about this great series, but since no one else has posted anything I'll give what info I can. The series was written by Kevin O'Connell or O'Donnell, memory fails. It concerns (no spoilers) a young Flinger, or teleportationally gifted person, and his quest to find out why the Far Being Retzglaran, about whom no one in the universe seems to know much, is interested in him. Or if the Far Being cares at all. There are four books so far in the series, although there had better be more eventually, or I will cry... I don't remember all the titles, but trhee of them are Cliffs, Reefs, and Lava. There was a _long_ delay between the third (which came out perhaps six years ago) and the fourth (which came out perhaps last year), so lord knows when the next one will come. I like the series very much. It may not seem like it, since I can't remember minor things like the main character's name, but that is because I haven't seen the books in a year (they're packed away). I highly recommend them. They have real, interesting people (just _wait_ until you meet Sam!) and vividly described situations. I also liked, though not as much, the same author's book "ORA:cle". Shoshanna Green ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 23:08:32 GMT From: abbott@dean.Berkeley.EDU (+Mark Abbott) Subject: Re: F.B. Retzglaran NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET writes: >>The Far Being Retzglaran was in a series of books (author's name >>begins with "O") about a teleporter. F B R was an anonomous being >>who exerted control over lots on things in the galaxy. In >>particular it seemed to annoy a interstellar crime syndicate. > >Does anyone have a better reference?? Sorry about the spelling - I don't have the books here with me but these are a series of 4 books by Kevin (I believe) O'Donnell about the adventures of McGill Feighan. If some of those names aren't spelled wrong I'm amazed. Titles are "Cliffs", "Lava", "Caverns", and "Reefs", not in that order. A good, fun, silly read. Mark Abbott abbott@dean.BERKELEY.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 15:46:33 GMT From: stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) Subject: Re: F.B. Retzglaran >>The Far Being Retzglaran was in a series of books (author's name >>begins with "O") about a teleporter. > Does anyone have a better reference?? Thanks. There are currently four books (in paperback) about a character named McGill Feighan, written by Kevin O'Donnell. (There may be a spelling error or two there.) The Far Being Retzglaran intervened in McGill Feighan's life shortly after McGill was born. No one know why, or even what the purpose and effects of the intervention were! The F.B. only interacts with McGill through a fairly ignorant intermediary and even so only twice, so it (the F.B.) never comes on the scene in any of the four books. The books are entitled "Caves", "Reefs", "Lava", and some other one word title I can't recall. Stu Friedberg {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart stuart@rochester ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 12:53:26 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Contact This is not a bad book in some respects, but ****-? No way! And why does Chuq give it such a high score? Well, partly because: "Other than that, solid writing, solid science and lots of fun." The amazing thing about this book is that the writing is better than the science, which is not what I would expect from a professional scientist. The writing is flat at times, but has some real merits. The science is incredibly bad. Awful. Putrid. El-Stinko, maximum dumbness award BAD. One problem many have noted I refer to in this posting to talk.religion.misc: sxnahm@ubvax.UUCP (Stephen X. Nahm) writes: >"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan "Speaking of Carl Sagan, what do people think of his recent sf book "Contact", in which God is depicted as sending messages to we creatures via the monodecimal (base 11) expansion of pi. We at the Institute of Pi Research regard this as the first definitive proof that Sagan is indeed the complete buffoon that many have been claiming him to be. But others, emboldened perhaps by the study of such questions as whether God can make a rock so big even He can't lift it, feel that this must be within the scope of omnipotence. What say ye?" [Me] There are other problems with the science. Sagan mentions in the back that he talked with Kip Thorne, who thought a little about the gravitational physics involved. What he doesn't say is that he and Thorne both know that the physics is bogus. In fact, one of his characters is The World's Greatest Physicist. He explains why what is happening is total nonsense, and I believe him. Sagan's black holes are phony, which is annoying when perpetrated by a professional astronomer. He should be ashamed of himself, but he got the 2x10^6 bucks, so I guess he isn't. Then there is the great space-time Machine, which is a bit of technomagic straight out of H. G. Wells (it reminded me of the time machine, and works in the same way: "don't ask"). This sends Our Heroine on a voyage through tunnels in space-time which are a lot like the subways in New York, but with less graffiti. One can even scrape space-time tunnel stuff (eh?) off of the walls. I found it totally ridiculous. Then look at the way all the Voyagers swallow the alien's preposterous story about messages from God inside of transcendental numbers. None of them ask "why are they trying to sell me this con job?", but they all act as if the concept makes sense. Our Heroine even tests it out on pi. She never asks "are the aliens influencing my computer to give the wrong answer, and if so, why?" She never asks "are the aliens galactic practical jokers, who know about the strange anomaly in pi and are pulling my leg by telling me it happens all over the place?" She never asks, "if God can use the decimal expansion of pi as an information channel, why not the expansion of an algebraic number?" She just mindlessly swallows the whole pack of bilge. This is one of Earth's great scientists? I hope not. The science in "Contact" would make a vulture puke. It wins this year's Robert L. Forward Award for gratuitous bad hard sf written by a scientist. I don't much mind if a poor sap like Greg Bear who knows not what he does has a mathematician invent a pi-meter to detect changes in the value of pi. Sagan ought to know better, and since he was paid so much for writing this book (based in good part on his reputation as a Public Scientist) he ought to take his responsibilities not to peddle complete scientific idiocy more seriously. Shame, Carl! Shame! Gene Ward Smith UCB Math Dept Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ucbvax!weyl!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 13:22:31 GMT From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Contact Netiquette probably called for a spoiler warning on your posting to SF-Lovers about Carl Sagan's *Contact*, Gene, since it circles (pun intended) around events that aren't revealed until the last page of the novel. Those who have read CONTACT -- and I disagree with Gene: to me, it's a brilliant book -- can safely read the rest of what I have to say. For the rest of you: SPOILER WARNING. Gene, I disagree with your interpretation on two counts. First, although you are obviously an expert on Pi (an I am not), I don't agree with you that the point of the circle image hidden in Pi was so much as a way of God communicating with humanity but rather -- as the chapter in the book is titled -- simply a way of Him signing His work. I'm a professional writer and sometimes when I write something that's not going to appear under my own name I bury a reference to myself somewhere in the work (this is reasonably common among writers, a practice born out of both vanity and the fear of plagarism). In fact, I bet Sagan's God is surprised and maybe slightly amused that there are people who would make a study out of Pi. He probably felt he had hidden his private mark somewhere where no one would find it. (Recall, for instance, that the Babel fish in The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy proves that God does not exist, precisely because it is a dead giveaway of His existence.) Of course, the people who send the Hitler message to Earth found the Pi circle, too, but I don't think they are "angels" of Sagan's God (i.e., their knowledge of the Pi circle is possibly independent of God's wishes). As for the great space machine being fantastic, I agree. But remember Clarke's Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." For me, CONTACT was a great book for several reasons: strong female character (something rare in SF), interesting commentary on contemporary religion and the schism between science and theology, good solid writing. Anyway, those are my thoughts. Cheers ROBERT J. SAWYER, Member SFWA c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 06:06:00 GMT From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU Subject: Need Some Suggestions I am a new user of this newsgroup. I have read some of the Arther C. Clarke's books. 2001, 2010, Childhoods' End (Which made me feel terrible), and A Fall of the Moon Dust. Also the Foundation series, and I think the book about parallel universe (by Asimov) is great. I have bought some SF recently, but most of them are pretty bad. Can someone suggest some good ones? I like big stories, but no magic involved. I mean some stories just went too far, they became dungeon's and dragon stories. Well, I will appreciate any recommendations. Eugene ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 87 18:23:32 GMT From: grant@ukecc.uky.csnet (Miles) Subject: The tripods..series dead..but not the books For those of you who are "Tripods" fans, I have good news. Even though the BBC has discontinued funding of the third and final episode, the original trilogy still exists in publication. You can find it at Waldenbooks in most branches. All 3 books might not be there at the same time, but they do carry them. I have purchased all three from Waldenbooks. The books are (in order with the original story..) : The White Mountains The City of Gold and Lead The Pool of Fire So for those of you who watched tripods on PBS, you can now read the parts you missed. I'm sure if you can't find the books the minute you walk in, they can order them for you. Miles Grant ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 87 16:20:34 PST From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) To: writers%plaid@Sun.COM Subject: St. Martins announces new Fantasy and Horror lines Effective Spring, 1987, St. Martins will be publishing two new mass market paperback lines, one in Science Fiction and one in Horror. Each will be printing one title a month. Lincoln Child is in charge of the Horror line, Stuart Moore is the coordinating editor for SF. This is in addition to their current Hardcover lines in these categories and also their acquisition of Tor books, which St. Martins is in the process of buying. [editorial comment: I have a full press release on this, let me know if you want the whole text] -- chuq [more editorial comment: This is just a continuation of a trend that has been evident for the last year or so -- category hardcover is finally starting to sell, and publishers are either starting up a complimentary line (paperback for hardback, or vice versa) or setting up arrangements with other publishers because there is a growing trend towards buying both hardcover and paperback rights with a single contract -- publishers who don't have that option aren't as competitive. In many ways, this just is another example of the growing acceptance of category fiction by the general buying public, as well as the growing tendency to buy hardcovers of major books. I don't think this announcement affects the relationship between St. Martins and Tor, since St. Martins is only publishing a title a month -- rather, it supplements it so that St.Martins can offer hard/soft rights under a single logo, which they weren't able to do before.] chuq ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Jan 87 0818-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #29 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 22 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 29 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Bboards & Man-Machine Interfaces (2 msgs) & Businessmen in SF (9 msgs) & Time Travel (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Jan 87 13:40 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: SF BBs Let me clarify my last request: by "SF" I meant that I'm looking for SCIENCE FICTION (especially Star Trek) bulletin boards, not San Francisco area. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 23:02:21 GMT From: unisoft!jef@rutgers.edu (Jef Poskanzer) Subject: Re: Man-Machine Interfaces. From: Peter G. Trei >>PS: I must mention _Marooned_in_Realtime_ the sequel to >>_The_Peace_War_ by Vernor Vinge, which inspired me to enter this >>submission. > If you liked that, you will love _Tom_Paine_Maru_ by L. Neil >Smith, another story which includes a mind-computer interface. This is like saying "If you liked _Moby_Dick_, you'll love _Jaws_, because it also is about a big fish." _Tom_Paine_Maru_ was ok, but _Marooned_in_Realtime_ was one of the best SF books I've read in years. My previous favorite was _True_Names. Vernor Vinge is on a first-name basis with God. Jef Poskanzer unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu ucbvax!unisoft!jef ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 87 12:14:05 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: Man-Machine Interfaces. How about Neuromancer by William Gibson , this is one of the best books I've read in a long time. I know neuromancer is a debut novel but does anybody know if he has written anything else yet and what it's called. Thanks in advance. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 9 Jan 87 22:57:25-PST From: Joe Brenner Subject: Image of Businessmen in SF I came across an article by Edward Clinic in the October 1986 REASON about the image of the businessman in fiction. Clinic's thesis is that with the exception of the novels of Ayn Rand, businessmen have universally gotten a bad press. He insists that everyone else incorporates "the altruist-collectivist theme" meaning "the primacy of service over self-interest and the disavowal of the profit motive". When I read this, my first thought was "This guy is complaining about the output of the conventional literary establishment, but he's falling into their trap by ignoring the unapproved literature, like science fiction." Obviously, there are any number of SF stories that promote a more positive image of business, right? But when I thought about it, I actually had trouble coming up with very many names, and most of them are fairly old: Heinlein's "Man Who Sold the Moon", Poul Anderson's THE MAN WHO COUNTS, George O. Smith's VENUS EQUILATERAL... ATLAS SHRUGGED was published in 1957. Could it be that all of the more recent science fiction has a more mainstream attitude? Like John Shirley's ECLIPSE, with it's horror stories about corporate evil. So I throw the question open to the net: can we come up with some names of "pro-business" SF stories? ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 87 21:48:44 GMT From: duke!crm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Image of Businessmen in SF From: Joe Brenner >So I throw the question open to the net: can we come up with some >names of "pro-business" SF stories? L.Neil Smith, all his books. Neil Shulman ditto. Charlie Martin ...mcnc!duke!crm ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 87 20:31:39 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Image of Businessmen in SF > Joe Brenner > I throw the question open to the net: can we come up with some > names of "pro-business" SF stories? Wheels Within Wheels (or anything else by F. Paul Wilson) The Probability Broach (or anything else by L. Neil Smith) These are what you might call "libertarian authors". There are many others, of course, though I can't call any to mind strongly just now. Also, I think the problem of business taking a bad rap in SF is exaggerated. Mostly, the question of "is Big Business a Bad Idea, or what" never comes up at all. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 87 20:00:32 GMT From: carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore) Subject: Re: Image of Businessmen in SF From: Joe Brenner > So I throw the question open to the net: can we come up with some > names of "pro-business" SF stories? Well, Heinlein did more than just the one short story with a pro business, pro free enterprise theme. Remember "Delilah and the Space Rigger" from about the same period as "The Man Who Sold the Moon"? Look at the characters of Tiny Larsen and the narrator. How about "We also Walk Dogs" from the same period that shows entrepeneur-out- to-make-a-buck as a major force for technological improvement? More recently Heinlein has given us the libertarian/anarchist/ free-enterprise society in THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, and the description of the invention of the Shipstone power pack in FRIDAY. Also, Anderson did a whole series of novels about Nicolas van Rijn, the hero of THE MAN WHO COUNTS; all were heavily oriented toward businessman-as-hero. C.J. Cherryh has written a series of books extolling the virtues of the merchant/adventurer type. They include the Merchant ship culture that shows up as background in novels like DOWNBELOW STATION, MERCHANTER'S LUCK, AND VOYAGER IN NIGHT, and the Series of novels about the Non-human merchant adventurers in PRIDE OF CHANUR, CHANUR'S HOMECOMING, THE KIF STRIKE BACK, etc. Niven and Pournelle, in the recent OATH OF FEALTY, show business people, and in particular one businesswoman, in a very good light. Niven shows non-human 'commercial' empires in his "Known Space" series, and both the Puppeteers and the Outsiders are seen as benefitting other species with their commercial motivations. There was THE SYNDIC, by C.M. Kornbluth, with its Mafia-becomes- legitimate-business-becomes-government-and-does-it-better theme. Also there are some science fiction authors who write utopian novels specifically pushing libertarian notions of government and business. L. Neil Smith is probably the most popular, with THE PROBABILITY BROACH, THE VENUS BELT, THE NAGASAKI VECTOR, AND THE TOM PAINE MARU. I remember a novel of this type called ALONGSIDE NIGHT with a youthful hero who is an obvious takeoff on David Friedman, but I can't remember the author. Hope this helps some. Carole Ashmore ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 87 01:27:34 GMT From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr) Subject: Businessmen in a good light Well, Jack Vance's Demon Princes novels present a universe where businesses run the universe. The police force is a company, the development and construction of spacecraft is done entirely by companies, and the somewhat mysterious entity that occasionally appears to be running everything is also non-governmental (I'm talking about the Institute if you've read the books). Someone remarks on this at some point, speculating what would happen if the spaceship companies (or at least the one that holds the patent on FTL travel) was closed...anyway, the world seems to get along just fine, and incidentally I recommend the books highly, I think they are some of the best SF around. Adam Barr 6080626@PUCC ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 05:03:49 GMT From: bnl!stern@rutgers.edu (Eric G. Stern) Subject: Re: Image of Businessmen in SF > So I throw the question open to the net: can we come up with some > names of "pro-business" SF stories? I don't know if these count as pro-business, but there were the Chap Fooey Rider short stories by some author whose name I never knew. Eric G. Stern ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 23:12:01 GMT From: ee161aba@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (David L. Smith) Subject: Re: Image of Businessmen in SF > So I throw the question open to the net: can we come up with some > names of "pro-business" SF stories? Here's a couple: Subspace Explorers, E.E. Smith - Utopian capitalism Privateers, Ben Bova - Entrepeneurs save space for the free world from Godless communism Cheers, David L. Smith {ucbvax, ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcc18!ee161aba ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 87 18:48:36 GMT From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: Image of Businessmen in SF From: Joe Brenner >So I throw the question open to the net: can we come up with some >names of "pro-business" SF stories? Heinlein's The Man Who Sold the Moon. Doc Smith's Skylark series, though that isn't their main point. Niven & Pournelle's Oath of Fealty. David Palmer's Threshold. I suspect it isn't that rare. It doesn't really leap out at me, so I probably have hundreds more examples that I can't call up easily. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 87 02:19:33 GMT From: randolph%cognito@Sun.COM (Randolph) Subject: Re: Businessmen (growth) SF stories generally celebrate the growing phases of business, rather than the mature phases. Heinlein's businessmen are usually founders: D.D. Harriman, Lazarus Long (who founded many of them) and the H-U-R-R-Y-U-P people (of "We Also Walk Dogs"). So are E.E. Smith's, Niven & Pournelle's, and David Palmer's. Generally, I think, SF's picture of business focuses on young businesses. The founder of a business empire can be heroic; the people who manage the economic empires the founders leave behind seldom are. I can't think of any serious SF story that takes an investment manager as a hero, though I can recall a few satires. Businessmen I recall from mundane fiction generally fall into three categories: the small businessman (whose business isn't generally central to the story at hand), the investment manager (whose life is usually portrayed as sterile), and 19th century robber-baron capitalists (usually SOB's, sometimes held up as bad examples). Growth (personal, cultural, spiritual) is one of SF's big themes, maybe THE big SF theme. Writing about the growth of business as cultural growth (which characterizes most of those SF writers who do write favorably about business) is natural to SF. Not so for current mundane fiction, which largely concerns itself with details of individual psychology. For these writers business is exploitative (most writers have held a long series of dead-end jobs) and injurious to the psyche or simply irrelevant to the matter of living. Randolph Fritz sun!rfritz ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 87 20:29:17 GMT From: jhardest@Wheeler-EMH Subject: Miscellaneous : Time Travel Solved !! Or is it ? Eureka, I believe I solved the problem of Time Travel. The main problem was with the energy gain/loss experience when traveling through time. Your home time loses energy while your destination time gains energy. This energy that is auof wunsoq matter I am still working on the exact formulas and how much wunsoq energy/matter it takes to travel forward/backward. Can any one give me assistance out there. Sincerly John Hardesty BBNCC, Hawaii jhardest@wheeler-emh ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 7 Jan 1987 11:26:14-PST From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: "If man were meant to travel through time..." Yet another close-minded, "scientific" attempt has been made to refute the possibility of "time travel." Interestingly, the noter contradicts himself as he points out (quite correctly) that there is no such thing as time, as we know it. (It's an abstract concept applied to our perception of changes in the physical universe.) In one sense, we are all time travellers, since we progress through the physical universe from day to day. In another sense, we represent our own time lines because only we are aware of the way that our physical universe is changing. The problem is, there are no other intelligent beings with whom we can compare our perception of the universe as a constantly changing pattern. We have defined our universe and many people contend that it includes all that there is. This attitude has prevailed since our egocentric human society began; and its limitations have been demonstrated again and again, from the discovery of other planets to the discovery of sub-atomic particles. I contend that our definition of Time is based only on our experience, and is limited to our perceived universe. I think it's interesting that the noter compared our theory of time travel with the existence of God, since only a being comparative to our concept of God could see beyond our limited perception of the universe and time. Science fiction is not limited to literature since 1850 -- look at DaVinci's sketches of human-powered flying machines, for example. Visionaries like DaVinci have expanded our perceptions of the known universe, opening possibilities for theoretical and practical research by scientists and inventors. Invention is a multiple-stage process that includes the generation of new ideas, the definition of theories, and the rejection of ideas that lack any basis in reality. If you don't have new ideas, you'll have no progress whatsoever. Time travel, specifically, is often called the "fifth dimension," I believe. This implies a dimensional state beyond our perception. We can visualize it in a way similar to comparing the second and third dimensions. Accepting this theory is necessary in order to explore the possibility of creating a path from "now" to "then." We don't need to say that this theory is valid. We only want to explore the possibilities resulting from it. That's what science fiction is for. To criticize this exercise as "unrealistic" or "having no basis in reality" is mere verbal masturbation. The fact is, science fiction writers (and readers, too!) will continue to explore the frontiers of knowledge for different ways of perceiving the universe. And, as has been demonstrated so often in the past, these visionaries will often be proven to have some impact on the progress of humanity. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 87 12:40 ??? From: KGEISEL%CGIVC%cgi.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: Still More Thoughts on Time Travel There has been a lot of talk about time travel lately. I have seen a lot about parallel branching and escaping reality, but very little about the 5th dimension idea. If you think of a dimension as a "direction" or "axis" in which you can travel, you can think of time as merely a "movement" along a certain axis. It is very hard to picture in your mind anything other than 3 dimensions, but it can easily be simulated on a computer- businesses use it as 4D spreadsheets. At any point along the time axis, the state of the other 3 dimensions are specific. We are constantly moving along the time axis at a fixed rate, probably by momentum from the Big Bang. When the Big Bang went off, it had enough energy to send everything moving along every dimension. In order to time travel, one must create a device which can move along this axis under its own energy. Just a thought, Kurt Geisel ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jan 87 0930-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #30 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 27 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 30 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Teleportation (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Jan 87 19:52:39 GMT From: sunybcs!twomey@rutgers.edu (Bill Twomey) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths From: Bruce_Schuck%SFU.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA >3. Every change in latitude involved a brief stop in a booth >designed to absorb the energy difference in rotational speed of the >Earth. In Niven's stories there was gigantic structure in the middle >of Lake Superior for this situation. The water surrounding the >structure(a big styrofoam bubble?) absorbed the energy. > Can you imagine the number of transfers to absorb energy from >moving between planets or solar systems that have velocity >differentials of thousands of miles per second(kps for those metric >freaks) instead of the hundreds of miles per HOUR(kpH) on earth? > >People would be turned into jelly on the insides of the transfer >booths. I'm not sure how Niven's scheme works, and this may be it, I have certainly seen it used in some other stories, but this is food for thought. Teleportation involves recording the position of every atom/molecule in the teleportee's body, and then transmitting this info to the destination where the receiver gloms together assorted atoms according to the recording. Now I'm curious, where do any velocities come into play? The recording sensors have the same relative velocity as the atoms in the teleportee. Further, If there is a difference in velocity (probably so) between the origin and destination, the transmitted info will not have any greater velocity. Radio waves will travel at the same speed (Speed of light stays pretty constant right?), an any "instantaneous" (FTL) transmissions won't have any change in velocity. I could see a velocity vector being transmitted if the recording process needs to record with respect to some absolute galactic origin, but couldn't the control machinery compensate for it on the receiving end (a little floating point subtraction?) ? ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 87 21:26:42 GMT From: uokmax!rmtodd@rutgers.edu (Richard Michael Todd) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths twomey@sunybcs.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes: > I'm not sure how Niven's scheme works, and this may be it, I have > certainly seen it used in some other stories, but this is food for > thought. Teleportation involves recording the position of every > atom/molecule in the teleportee's body, and then transmitting this > info to the destination where the receiver gloms together assorted > atoms according to the re- cording. Ah, but Niven's procedure *isn't* the teleport-by-recording mechanism. As I recall it, it involved converting the object to be teleported into a "transition particle", a "super-neutrino" which travels at light-speed from source to receiver. Momentum and gravitational potential energy are conserved -- if source and dest. are at different velocities, the change in momentum has to go somewhere. That's what all the talk about velocity dampers was about--they take up the change in velocity. If you teleport from a higher to lower place (or vice versa) the system has to absorb or supply the excess pot. energy. What you say about the teleport-by-transfer-of-information system is completely true, but not relevant to Niven. It is relevant to, say, the transporter in Star Trek, the one in Poul Anderson's "The Ways of Love", and several others. As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport methods that have been used in SF stories. All I can think of at the moment are: 1.Transfer-of-information 2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying 3.Transport through hyperspace 4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's "Null-A" series. Any others? Richard Todd USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069 UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 87 15:30:55 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: teleportation booths rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes: >As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport >methods that have been used in SF stories. All I can think of at >the moment are: > 1.Transfer-of-information > 2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying > 3.Transport through hyperspace > 4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's > "Null-A" series. >Any others? In "Battlefield Earth", L. Ron Hubbard uses what I infer to be instantaneous matter transfer. Requires a Receiver at the destination. Ah, well, "any sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", to quote a well-known author. Kris Stephens 408-746-6047 amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 87 19:18:02 GMT From: sunybcs!twomey@rutgers.edu (Bill Twomey) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes: >twomey@sunybcs.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes: >> Teleportation involves recording the position of every >> atom/molecule in the teleportee's body, >Ah, but Niven's procedure *isn't* the teleport-by-recording >mechanism. As I recall it, it involved converting the object to be >teleported into a "transition particle", a "super-neutrino" which >travels at light-speed from source to receiver. Momentum and >gravitational potential energy are conserved -- if source and dest. >are at different velocities, the change in momentum has to go >somewhere. That's what all the talk about velocity dampers was >about--they take up the change in velocity. If you teleport from a >higher to lower place (or vice versa) the system has to absorb or >supply the excess pot. energy. You are right. But I'm curious, how is the object converted? No I'm not asking for details of an uninvented device, but just in general. Are there some sort of sensors? I would think that for any teleportation device, the object would be stationary and at the same gravitational potential with respect to the teleporter. So there is no extra potential/kinetic energy to deal with. You would think that the movement of the planet/solar system/galaxy would impart some momentum to the transition particle, but the transition particle cannot move FTL and is transmitted at speed of light, so where does the momentum come in? The reciever has to deal with the kinetic energy of the transition particle and nothing else. Am I missing something? >As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport >methods that have been used in SF stories. All I can think of at >the moment are: > 1.Transfer-of-information > 2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying > 3.Transport through hyperspace > 4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's > "Null-A" series. >Any others? 5.I read a story where people would teleport themselves by "jaunting". The method was discovered by some research doctor in his lab. He needed a fire extinguisher, and there was no way he could run to it in time save his work. All of a sudden he just appeared at the extinguisher, got back to his work saved it,.... The "jaunters" had to know where they were going. Something about postion, elevation, [something else I don't know what]. Also, it was immpossible to jaunt through space until the protagonist managed to. Author and title unknown to me. Bill ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 17:56:27 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths twomey@gort.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes: >I'm not sure how Niven's scheme works, and this may be it, I have >certainly seen it used in some other stories, but this is food for >thought. Teleportation involves recording the position of every >atom/molecule in the teleportee's body, and then transmitting this >info to the destination where the reciever gloms together assorted >atoms according to the recording. Now I'm curious, where do any >velocities come into play? The recording sensors have the same >relative velocity as the atoms in the teleportee. Niven assumes (quite sensibly) that the teleported object *itself* is transported, not a schematic of the object. (If a representation can be made, and a copy generated from that representation, then what's to stop me from "beaming" a copy of me to several receivers, generating me several times? It can get ugly,...) seismo!nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 18:00:22 GMT From: rtech!bobm@rutgers.edu (Bob Mcqueer) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths If there's going to be a discussion of teleportation, and in particular Niven's application of it, I'd recommend an article of his: "The Theory and Practice of Teleportation". In it he discusses several aspects of the use of teleportation in SF. You can find the article in one of his short story collections. I think it's the one whose title story concerns the sun going nova ("Inconstant Moon" ???), and also contains "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex". My memory may be playing me false, however, and my bookshelf isn't nearby at the moment. Bob McQueer {amdahl, sun, mtxinu, hoptoad, cpsc6a}!rtech!bobm ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 17:40:05 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths bobm@rtech.UUCP (Bob Mcqueer) writes: >If there's going to be a discussion of teleportation, and in >particular Niven's application of it, I'd recommend an article of >his: "The Theory and Practice of Teleportation". In it he >discusses several aspects of the use of teleportation in SF. You >can find the article in one of his short story collections. I >think it's the one whose title story concerns the sun going nova >("Inconstant Moon" ???), and also contains "Man of Steel, Woman of >Kleenex". My memory may be playing me false, however, and my >bookshelf isn't nearby at the moment. The book is "All The Myriad Ways"; I believe it's published by Del Rey. "Theory and Practice of Teleportation" and "Theory and Practice of Time Travel" are both in this collection (as well as other great short stories, and an overview of the methods of inhabiting space), and are both _REQUIRED_READING_ for anyone who posts here on these subjects. There will be an exam on these two works on Monday. seismo!nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 21:02:17 GMT From: uokmax!rmtodd@rutgers.edu (Richard Michael Todd) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths twomey@sunybcs.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes: > You are right. But I'm curious, how is the object converted? No > I'm not asking for details of an uninvented device, but just in > general. As far as I know, Niven never says exactly how it works (at least, I don't remember it.) > Are there some sort of sensors? I would think that for any > teleportation device, the object would be stationary and at the > same gravitational potential with respect to the teleporter. So > there is no extra potential/kinetic energy to deal with. You > would think that the movement of the planet/solar system/galaxy > would impart some momentum to the transition particle, but the > transition particle cannot move FTL and is transmitted at speed of > light, so where does the momentum come in? The reciever has to > deal with the kinetic energy of the transition particle and > nothing else. Am I missing something? Ah, but just because the transition particle moves at lightspeed *doesn't* mean it has a constant momentum. As I recall it, the relationship in relativity theory between energy and momentum is E^2 = c^2 * p^2 + m0^2*c^4 where E is total energy, p is momentum, and m0 is rest mass. For objects at rest with mass, this reduces to E=mc^2. For neutrinos, photons, etc. with rest mass m0=0, this reduces to E=cp and thus p=E/c -- the photon/neutrino/whatever has a momentum equal to its energy divided by c. But now that you mention it, I'm not sure just how the gravitational- potential balance works out -- just where in the particle does the potential energy get stored if, as stated above, the total energy is cp. Hmmm.... Richard Todd USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069 UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 87 11:14:31 cet From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Teleportation and energy problems One of the things that disturbs me about all the talk that has gone on about teleport/transfer booths is the blithe way people have been talking about throwing away energy. The First (and only) Commandment of the Univers is Thou Shalt Not Waste!! I see no reason why the teleporter mechanism could not be tied into an energy recovery mechanism to turn these differences in momenta into useful energy rather than just dumping it into Lake Superior, or the like. This would solve 2 problems at once: the problem of how do you get rid of the unwanted momentum, and the (probably) high energy cost of the transport system. At least this way, the people teleporting from high to low momenta areas will offset those transporting the other way, rather than having the local power system have to provide the power to boost the momenta of those moving the 'wrong way'. George Madison 7GMADISO at POMONA.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 87 13:33:27 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: teleportation methods In Alan Nourse's THE UNIVERSE BETWEEN, teleportation happens by stepping through a 4-dimensional universe; this differs from conventional hyperspace in that this is a populated universe parallel in structure to the several 3-D universes it touches. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 87 22:37:18 GMT From: harlie!carl@rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths >As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport >methods that have been used in SF stories. All I can think of at >the moment are: > 1.Transfer-of-information > 2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying > 3.Transport through hyperspace > 4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's > "Null-A" series. There's always the good old "grab a chunk of space, yank, step across" method where you either open a hole in spacetime and go through or fold space up ("A Wrinkle in Time"). Carl Greenberg {qantel,ihnp4,lll-crg}!ptsfa!harlie!carl ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 87 09:33:56 GMT From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) Subject: Teleportation methods (was: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation Subject: booths rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes: >As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport >methods that have been used in SF stories. All I can think of at >the moment are: > 1.Transfer-of-information > 2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying > 3.Transport through hyperspace > 4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's >"Null-A" series. Any others? Piers Anthony (yes, *him* :-)) had a process called "mattermitting" (I think that's the right term) in his "Cluster" series, but I'm not sure that the process was ever explained; more interesting was the "Aura Transfer", in which a person's "aura" was transferred to a host body instantaneously, irrespective of the distance involved. This probably doesn't count as a teleport method, but it was a good idea. (Though the last couple of books in the series were not as good as the first three!) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jan 87 0956-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #31 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 27 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 31 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Jan 87 03:05:41 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Teckla (could be a potential spoiler) holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes: >trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes: >> 1) Vlad is simply the greatest sorcerer of the time. >> Spellbreaker is nothing more than a focus for his innate, but >> unrecognized power. The sickness he feels on teleporting is >> simply a natural reaction of the Easterner body into which he >> was reincarnated which is being subjected to more raw power >> than it can handle. Spellbreaker doesn't protect him because >> it is an inanimate, powerless piece of gold-like chain. If I >> remember correctly, this hypothesis is supported by the a >> certain incident involving raw chaos. >There is proof that he's a reincarnated Dragarean, of course. And >since we didn't know Vlad before going over the Falls, we don't >know if he was always one. However, he never refers to an >overpowering of his Easterner soul with a Draegarean (<-- I'll just >keep spelling it differently until I get it right) soul, so I'd >tend to doubt this. I detect confusion. Reincarnation is discussed in all three books; in one (I don't remember which or where) it is mentioned that Dragaerans who aren't taken to the Halls of Judgement in the Paths of the Dead are believed to be reincarnated. (BTW, the spelling I use above I have checked with the books.) As a result, he was BORN a reincarnated Dragaeran; he wasn't saddled with a homeless Dragaeran soul when he went over Deathsgate Falls. (Anyway, it's implied by Aliera that Dolivar wouldn't have been taken to the Paths of the Dead in any case, so how would he be there?) Moreover, the effect of reincarnation is NEVER overpowering; cf. JHEREG, the end of chapter 9, and later on in chapter 10; Aliera can remember it (although she doesn't make it sound as if it's intrusive), and Cawti says that Sethra could help Vlad learn of his former life if he wished (implying that it takes sorcery to do it; Aliera's a sorceress, so it's unsurprising that she could see her past lives). >Given: Spellbreaker is magical. > Great Weapons are magical. > >This does not prove that Spellbreaker is a Great Weapon. > >Given: Dragaereans from Vlad's former line all have Great Weapons. > Vlad is formerly of this line. > >If this heredity does make one entitled to a Great Weapon; in >essence, make possession of one mandatory, then Spellbreaker is >probably a Great Weapon. This can't be proved without requiring >the Q.E.D. as a given... circular reasoning. Please tell me what this has to do with it? We suspect that Spellbreaker is a Great Weapon (1) because it has some extremely odd properties (i.e. the indian rope trick it does) and (2) because Sethra told him that he HAD to name it. --Had to? This in itself implies some kind of sentient magic; and THAT (to phrase it like your syllogisms, although NOTHING is certain enough about this subject for a syllogism to be formed at all) means: Given: Great Weapons are sentient and magical; Spellbreaker is (apparently) sentient and magical; Thus: Spellbreaker has a fairly good chance of being a Great Weapon. >First, I recall that all the other great weapons are swords (is >this true?). A comment made about Iceflame in YENDI, comparing it to the Imperial Orb, could conceivably be taken to mean that the Imperial Orb is a Great Weapon. (Even more likely because of a comment made elsewhere that Mario killed the Phoenix Emperor just before the Interregnum because he was about to use the Orb to destroy the House of the Jhereg -- this isn't a weapon?) Who's to say? Except SKZB, of course -- but if he has an answer he's saving it up for a later story; I'm quite willing to wait to read it. Brandon S. Allbery 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 781 6201 ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 87 07:07:14 GMT From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) Subject: Re: Teckla I just gotta ask. (and hope that skzb doesn't mind direct questions) Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody things? Sure, you may be one of the best storytellers since JRRT, but even a most stalwart fan of the Vlad series, such as myself, would get tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books. (I just hope you don't get carried away by the commercial thought that us stalwart fans would probably still buy all 17 unless they got unbearable) ray trent@csvax.caltech.edu rat@caltech.bitnet seismo!cit-vax!trent ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 87 09:23:01 GMT From: starfire!brust@rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) Subject: Re: Teckla > As for Vlad being unsure of himself; the seeds of this are in > JHEREG. (See below.) Cawti only added to it. (But I still ask: > three DAYS (not weeks, not months, not years!) before the events > in TECKLA, Cawti performed an assassination as part of helping > Vlad in JHEREG. Is it REALLY that likely that she would change so > much in only three days???) I just gotta set one thing straight--at no time, in Jar-head, did Cawti perform an assassination. She helped Vlad, she made a supposed offer to do an assassination, and like that. But she never performed an actual murder-for-pay. Also, on an even less importan point, it was, in fact (in fiction?) three weeks, not three days, between Jar-head and Tacky. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 87 08:33:28 GMT From: viper!dave@rutgers.edu (David Messer) Subject: Re: Teckla trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes: >I just gotta ask. (and hope that skzb doesn't mind direct >questions) >Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody things? I'd be willing to bet that he doesn't write 17 books in the Vlad series. For instance, the next one is called "Easterner" sounds like there will be at least 18... :-) >Sure, you may be one of the best storytellers since JRRT, but even If I thought that JRRT was a good storyteller, I'd agree with this. >a most stalwart fan of the Vlad series, such as myself, would get >tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books. Not me! I wouldn't mind if he wrote 289 of them. Besides, I think it is obvious that he is growing as an author -- as is evidenced by the flak he has been getting for not making "Tekla" just like the previous books. I think that there will be something new in each book. David Messer Lynx Data Systems UUCP: ihnp4!quest!viper!dave ihnp4!meccts!viper!dave ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 87 17:58:58 GMT From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Teckla dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes: >I think it is obvious that he is growing as an author -- as is >evidenced by the flak he has been getting for not making "Tekla" >just like the previous books. I beg to differ. The flak has stemmed from the fact that Teckla is in many ways a poorly written story. It is indeed different from Jeherg and Yendi, but I don't think this readership is much put off by reading something unexpected. The problem with Teckla is that despite all the action in the book, nothing much happens. Brust is (consciously, I think) making his writing more symbolic and ideological. That's not all bad - writing is supposed to convey higher meanings. But the first task of writing is to present a story, and Teckla doesn't present much of an interesting story, despite all the fireworks. Brust has let his attempts at ideology get in the way of his storytelling ability. Complaining about Cawti's sea-change is just a reader's way of noticing this. Not to start an analysis of Brust's career (I think his head is probably swelled enough with people calling him God) but this was clearly forseeable. Jhereg and Yendi were probably both written (or at least thought out) before Brust had much success. His books that have come since then - To Reign in Hell, Brokedown Palace and Teckla - have been much more constructed and ideological. I wouldn't say success has gone to his head - I suspect that he is simply trying to be a good author, and that he sees one goal of being a good author to try and tell stories that convey important meaning - but he would do well to remember what made Jhereg and Yendi so successful. To judge from the long-winded discussions on this group about literary values, there seems to be a consensus that "great literature" requires multiple layers of clever meaning. I disagree. Romeo & Juliet is an enduring masterpiece not because it says anything clever (what is the point of R&J, after all?) but because it is a hell of a good story. (Though that may seem circular.) Finally, I also disliked Teckla because the ideologies Brust's presents are not only embarrassingly simple-minded but frankly quite boring as well. Being roughly the same age as Brust, I'm not particularly interested in a watered-down rehash of modern philosophies devoid of interesting conclusions. And to take these philosophies out of their historical context and drop them with a bone-jarring thud into a fantasy world where they seem as out-of-place as a Kenmore washer adds insult to injury. Scott R. Turner ARPA: srt@ucla UUCP: {cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt DRAGNET: {channing,streisand,joe-friday}!srt@dragnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 87 02:32:20 GMT From: morganc@inst13.WISC.EDU (Morgan Clark) Subject: Question for skzb This is posted on behalf of another person, who does not currently read news... In the Cycle in the Jhereg-Yendi-etc. series, there is one line about how the <...> maintains, though none knows how. (I can't think of the creature) In Lewis Carroll's "The Hunting of the Snark", the beaver saves the ship/crew/something, and again none knows how. Is this an intentional parallel? Is the creature in the Cycle a beaver? Morgan Clark g-clark@gumby.wisc.edu morganc@puff.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 87 02:55:24 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Teckla srt@CS.UCLA.EDU (Scott Turner) writes: >To judge from the long-winded discussions on this group about >literary values, there seems to be a consensus that "great >literature" requires multiple layers of clever meaning. I >disagree. What consensus? Those who found participating in that discussion worthwhile may agree that this is so, but their numbers are small compared to the readership of this group... >Finally, I also disliked Teckla because the ideologies Brust's >presents are not only embarrassingly simple-minded but frankly >quite boring as well. Being roughly the same age as Brust, I'm not >particularly interested in a watered-down rehash of modern >philosophies devoid of interesting conclusions. And to take these >philosophies out of their historical context and drop them with a >bone-jarring thud into a fantasy world where they seem as >out-of-place as a Kenmore washer adds insult to injury. Ah, but what of Jhereg and Yendi? The story contains little to distinguish Vlad from the moral equivalent of the 30's gangster stereotype! I liked the books, but somewhere my brain kept complaining about space operas and spaghetti westerns. Now, all of the sudden, Vlad is transformed and one gets jerked the other way. Now I hope Brust is setting us up for something interesting, but on the other hand, he may just be wandering around in his fictional universe looking for something to latch onto. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 87 19:23:38 GMT From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: 17 of these bloody things (was Teckla) trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes: >Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody things? > >...would get tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books. Your subject line was re: Teckla, but I wonder if you have in fact read that latest contribution to the, er, cycle. I think Teckla is considerably different from the first two, for better or (and?) for worse. And it's worse than 17, the next one is Easterner, which an astute reader will notice isn't one of the 17 houses. David Dyer-Bennet Usenet: viper!ddb ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 87 23:20:53 GMT From: viper!dave@rutgers.edu (David Messer) Subject: Re: Teckla srt@CS.UCLA.EDU (Scott Turner) writes: >dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes: >The flak has stemmed from the fact that Teckla is in many ways a >poorly written story. 'Tis a matter of opinion. I happen to feel that this is one of SKZB's best crafted works. It had me truly worried about how Vlad was going to get out of the predicament that he found himself in. True, it wasn't a particularly pleasent story -- I wouldn't have wanted to live it in Vlads place -- but it told the story well. >The problem with Teckla is that despite all the action in the book, >nothing much happens. Does Vlad have to save the Empire in every book? >Jhereg and Yendi were probably both written (or at least thought >out) before Brust had much success. His books that have come since >then - To Reign in Hell, Brokedown Palace and Teckla - have been >much more constructed and ideological. Actually, "To Reign in Hell" was written between "Jhereg" and "Yendi" as was "Brokedown Palace" between "Yendi" and "Teckla." >To judge from the long-winded discussions on this group about >literary values, there seems to be a consensus that "great >literature" requires multiple layers of clever meaning. I >disagree. Romeo & Juliet is an enduring masterpiece not because it >says anything clever (what is the point of R&J, after all?) but >because it is a hell of a good story. (Though that may seem >circular.) I agree with your disagreement and disagree that R&J is great literature. (I bet that wasn't clear. :-) Actually, I think that great literature, and great art in general, is that which conveys the strongest emotions. One way of doing it may be to have a great depth of meaning, but another way is to tell a universal story in a simple and believable way. "Teckla" is in the later catagory. David Messer Lynx Data Systems UUCP: ihnp4!quest!viper!dave ihnp4!meccts!viper!dave ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 87 22:36:10 GMT From: harlie!carl@rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: Teckla > Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody > things? I hope so. > Sure, you may be one of the best storytellers since JRRT, but even > a most stalwart fan of the Vlad series, such as myself, would get > tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books. (I just hope you don't > get carried away by the commercial thought that us stalwart fans > would probably still buy all 17 unless they got unbearable) I would probably buy 17 of them if the quality stays the same or gets better... How many books has Heinlein written that he's tying into each other, and how many people have them all? Asimov has his robots and his Foundation and ties them together... There's probably 20 Darkover novels now, and I have them all.. Perhaps we'll have a first with one person being one of the main characters of 17 books! GO FOR IT! Carl Greenberg {qantel,ihnp4,lll-crg}!ptsfa!harlie!carl ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 87 00:09:49 GMT From: sdcrdcf!markb@rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Teckla carl@harlie.UUCP (Carl Greenberg) writes: >now, and I have them all.. Perhaps we'll have a first with one >person being one of the main characters of 17 books! GO FOR IT! Humm.... How about Perry Rodan, Tarzan, Doc Savage, the Destroyer books (and other such series), some Western series (is Longarm that long yet?) etc. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jan 87 1014-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #32 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 27 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 32 Today's Topics: Films - Dune & The Lost Missile (3 msgs) & War Games (7 msgs) & Movie Adaptions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jan 87 10:20:46 PST From: dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Dave Platt) To: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Uncut version of Dune A short news-item in the video-press recently (I think it was "Video Review" 1/87??) reported that there has been some talk of releasing the uncut version of "Dune" on videocassette; it's about 3.5 hours and would be delivered in a two-cassette package. One reason cited for the increasing willingness of the studio to re-release this film in its uncut form is the director's recent critical success with "Blue Velvet" (I think it was...). ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 87 03:04:14 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this OLD movie? kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes: > I've been trying to track down the title to a movie I saw a LONG > time ago, and the net usually seems to come up with an answer, If I take some pride in this, I think I have a pretty good batting average in identifying old science fiction films on the net. > Somewhere in the 1958-61 time frame, The release date was somewhere around November, 1958. > I saw a B/W, grade B (or C) movie that had to do with the arrival > of an alien ship or probe. Since the military didn't understand > what it was, where it came from, or what it wanted, they naturally > took a shot at it with a guided missile (as such things were > called then). > > They managed to damage the ship's control systems in such a way > that it ended up locked in Earth orbit. For some reason > (radiation, heat due to intense "friction", ...), the ship was > "burning" a swath something like 10 miles wide as it continued to > orbit ... destroying everything in it's track (cities, people, > what have you). This film is THE LOST MISSILE starring Robert Loggia and a heck of a lot of military stock footage about how well we are protected by the DEW line. Then the film is about something that the Air Force has a little trouble stopping, a missile from Mars that is scorching its way toward New York City, more or less to bake the Big Apple. I love the scenes of Eskimoes looking up to see this bright light coming over the horizon. A few second later, there is nothing left. Loggia whips up a quick warhead and is driving it out to a missile, when he is stopped by juvenile delinquints who open up the casing of the warhead. Knowing it will now give him a deadly dose of radiation, Loggia mounts the warhead on the missile and dies saving NYC. Really a clever usage of stock footage and not a whole lot else to make a decent science fiction film. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 87 08:03:36 GMT From: amdahl!kim@rutgers.edu (Kim DeVaughn) Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this OLD movie? leeper@mtgzz.UUCP writes: > kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes: >> I've been trying to track down the title to a movie I saw a LONG >> time ago, and the net usually seems to come up with an answer, > If I take some pride in this, I think I have a pretty good batting > average in identifying old science fiction films on the net. [ > ... ] This film is THE LOST MISSILE starring Robert Loggia and a > heck of a lot of military stock footage ... And well you should, Mark! Your description brings back considerably more of the movie, though Robert Loggia as the star surprised me. > Really a clever usage of stock footage and not a whole lot else to > make a decent science fiction film. Agreed! This may explain why I've never seen it on late-night TV. Still, I'd much prefer to see it again over "Attack of the Mushroom People", etc. BTW, I had an email response from arlan@gatech who suggested the title, "The Day the Earth Burned" ... do you know if that movie had a similar plot? Thanks alot, kim UUCP: kim@amdahl.amdahl.com {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb,cbosgd}!amdahl!kim DDD: 408-746-8462 USPS: Amdahl Corp. M/S 249, 1250 E. Arques Av, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 87 19:16:14 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this OLD movie? leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (Mark R. Leeper) writes: > little trouble stopping, a missile from Mars that is scorching its > way I am not sure how that happened. I meant to say a missle from Venus. Not an important detail, but I wanted to set the record straight. Mark Leeper ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Sun 18 Jan 87 15:48:50-CST From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: WAR GAMES (was about Hogan) rlgvax!jesse@rutgers.edu (Jesse Barber) writes: > ... James P. Hogan, the author, used to be a consultant for DEC, > so his books tend to treat computers and most technical/scientific > subjects "realistically". It is similar to the movie "War Games" > for this reason: realistic treatment of computers in a good story. > Most of the computer freaks that I know also enjoyed it... WAR GAMES is a "realistic treatment of computers in a good story"???!!! A teenage hacker calls up NORAD and thinks it's a videogame company. One of the most important & dangerous computers in the world is reached by an ordinary phone line. The kid then breaks into it quite easily. We get high resolution (and I think even animated) graphics from the NORAD computer appearing on his screen virtually instantly at 300 baud (yes, an acoustic modem). The NORAD computer has "games" like "chess" and "global thermonuclear destruction" just sitting around in the same directory. There's an absurdly stereotyped dumb southern-accented general, a silly mad scientist, retarded security guards whom the teenager easily eludes. Don't forget the laughable NORAD computer itself, dubbed WOPR (as a friend disgustedly joked, "NORAD, home of the WOPR.") We are treated to several pans of the camera around the imposing WOPR, replete with those neato blinking lights. But the worst is the ending... after the teenager has unwittingly instigated WOPR to its dangerous launch state, everyone is completely baffled at what to do, including the WOPR's designer Dr. Falken (or whatever mad scientist name he had). There is of course no way to stop WOPR. But the kid just sits down and tells WOPR to play tic-tac-toe with itself a few thousand times (and show it on the big screen) while all the military brass gaze on in perplexed admiration. The supercomputer takes several seconds to play a single game of tic-tac-toe at first, but it catches on after a while, and soon the games just go flashing by on the big board, to the slack-jawed amazement of all, and then the computer says "A curious game; no one can win" and so decides not to launch its missiles after all. YAGH, what a groaner of a movie! Bad science AND a sappy storyline. Normally I would not go off on a tirade about a passing remark like this, but this movie angered me because in my experience it was the non-computer literate people who thought it was realistic (other computer folks thought it was stupid). I found it frightening that so many "ordinary men on the street" were actually believing that computers were like they are in this movie, and that the scriptwriters were wielding so much unwitting control over people's technophobia. Don't get me wrong; I certainly don't want the country to be run by computers any more than the next person. But if a movie purports to deal with such issues, it ought to either be realistic about it, or else be a satire. But WAR GAMES posed as a realistic movie and thereby spread a bunch of irresponsible nonsense about what computers are really like. After we left the theatre, we could overhear people talking about how scary computers are, and actually worried that the events in the movie were quite realistic. Sure, computers are dangerous, but any knowledgeable computer person who believes that movie was a realistic treatment of computers must have overdosed on suspension of disbelief pills. Russ ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 87 16:08:23 GMT From: rlgvax!jesse@rutgers.edu (Jesse Barber) Subject: Re: War Games desj@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (David desJardins) writes: > Talk about destroying your own credibility! To cite "War > Games" as an example of realistic treatment of computers is > frankly ludicrous. 1) The method used in the movie to gain access to the computer, was used by teenaged hackers in at least two widely publicized cases. Guess where they got the idea? (No, it wasn't Dr. Dobbs journal). And how many people responsible for computer systems saw that movie and instead of thinking "ludicrous" thought "oh sh**t"? Obviously two less than should have to judge by the news reports cited above. 2) The "backdoor" password imbedded in the code is just one example of a class of problems that computer security specialists have recognized for years. ( I only took one class in the stuff in the mid 1970's, and my professor mentioned it there.) Has it gone away? Are all programmers too honest to do such a thing? Or are all programs so rigidly scrutinized now that _NO_ unauthorized code could possibly get by? 3) The war games being played by the computer reminded me of some I have seen running on various micro's ( though the graphics was a bit beyond the monochrome IBM pc's we have here). So the question is, what do you find so ludicrous about the computer in "War Games"? Was the technology too advanced? Too dated? Did the software not match the hardware? What, in fact, was so "ludicrous" about the computer in "War Games"? And where (serious: no flame intended) has it been done better? Jesse @ C.C.I. Reston, Va. seismo!rlgvax!jesse ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 03:46:13 GMT From: umich!jtr485@rutgers.edu (Johnathan Tainter) Subject: Re: WAR GAMES (was about Hogan) From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU > But WAR GAMES posed as a realistic movie and thereby spread a > bunch of irresponsible nonsense about what computers are really > like. After we left the theatre, we could overhear people talking > about how scary computers are, and actually worried that the > events in the movie were quite realistic. Sure, computers are > dangerous, but any knowledgeable computer person who believes that > movie was a realistic treatment of computers must have overdosed > on suspension of disbelief pills. I don't think it was a realistic treatment of computers but that didn't stop me from enjoying the story. Why does even a story played straight have to follow reality? Answer carefully, because every movie that isn't just a documentary collection of live footage plays hob with some realities. BTW: If there were a way to verify it one way or the other I would bet you better than even money that there is a way into the defense systems over a conventional phone line. I draw this conclusion simply from the egotism demonstrated by programmers and especially security programmers. j.a.tainter ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 14:07:41 GMT From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: War Games I've got to agree with the original poster: of all the films made about computers, WarGames strikes me as the most accurate. I mean, sure, there were excess; sure, poetic licence was used; sure, there were things done just to make it visually appealing. But "ludicrous" is too strong a word, I think, best reserved for such things as the wise-cracking talking IBM PC psychiatrist seen last season in an episode of the sitcom "The Facts of Life." Yes, a backdoor password might indeed by slipshod security, but such things do happen. In a sense, WarGames had the same message that the soviet committee investigating Chernobyl had. That committee concluded that the reactor accident occurred in large measure because the workers had lost their sense of danger, i.e., had relaxed into their jobs, forgetting the highly hazardous nature of what they were working with. Falken and McKittrup, the two programmers in WarGames, could have taken shortcuts that made it possible for security to be compromised far more easily than *should* have been possible. And as for the 1200-baud accoustic coupler used by David Lightman in the film WarGames, I didn't believe such a thing was possible, either -- until I saw one with my own eyes. There's a grad student at the Computer Systems Research Institute here at the University of Toronto, who, so help me, has one. It's not very forgiving of noisy phone lines, but the darn thing does indeed work. Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 18:26:04 GMT From: valid!jao@rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) Subject: Re: WAR GAMES What's more, when the kid first contacts the NORAD computer, he hooks up a voice synthesizer so we can hear the computer talk. From then on, whenever the computer is hooked up to any terminal anywhere, it manages to speak in the same voice, despite the absence of a voice synthesizer on that terminal! John Oswalt amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 87 08:00:51 GMT From: crash!kevinb@rutgers.edu (Kevin J. Belles) Subject: Re: WAR GAMES (was about Hogan) As well as the things above, the 'modem' noise was like nothing I know of used today. Accoustic modems can go 1200 baud, using Racal-Vadic 3451 protocol, but the terminal they used had no graphics set at all. They cobbled together something that looked impressive, but what they didn't tell you is that another computer based on the same bus as that hand-wired looking contraption did all the graphics on all the screens. Yep, a Compupro. Oh yes; if somebody can figure out how to get me graphics as good as that map of the U.S. on a military-version of an ADM-3A, let me know..... Kevin J. Belles UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!kevinb ARPA: crash!kevinb@{nosc, ucsd} ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 11:02:38 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: WAR GAMES (was about Hogan) Last time I watched this film I wrote down what I thought were errors and absurdities as they came up in the film. I ended up with exactly one for every two minutes of screen time. It is pretty tough for a screenwriter to screw up a screenplay that much! Mark Leeper ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 23:16:52 GMT From: ihlpa!fish@rutgers.edu (Bob Fishell) Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat (Movie adaptations in general) From: John Bertram Geis(Syzygy Darklock) > I have a question. Have there ever been any plans made to make a > "Stainless Steel Rat" Movie. It would be nice, but I'd be afraid to see the results. If any one else has seen the schlock job that was done to Roger Zelazny's _Damnation Alley_, a story that would have made a wonderful screenplay without any modification, you know what I mean. Jan-Michael Vincent as Hell Tanner, for chrissake? I might have believed Kurt Russel. I wonder who they'd get to play Slippery Jim? Probably some jerk like Gary Collins, the way that Hollywood does in SF novels. The only decent adaptation of a classic SF story that I've seen done well in recent years was John Carpenter's "The Thing," which unlike it's 1950's predecessor, was pretty faithful to John W. Campbell's "Who Goes There?," the story from which both films were adapted. Bob Fishell ihnp4!ihlpa!fish ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jan 87 0821-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #33 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 28 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 33 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Bear & Donaldson (4 msgs) & Farmer & Foster & Friedberg & Gee & Gibson & Harrison & Sagan & Wolfe & "Adrian Mole" & A Request & A Correction ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Jan 87 04:15:14 GMT From: sunybcs!tim@rutgers.edu (Timothy Thomas) Subject: Asimov's Robots Anybody have a complete list of all of Asimov's Robot stories (and novels)? I would appreciate any list you may be able to give me. Timothy D. Thomas SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science UUCP: [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!tim CSnet: tim@buffalo ARPAnet: tim%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ Date: 23-Jan-1987 1333 From: redford%rock.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: re: Bear's pi-meters and Sagan's "Contact" Gene Ward Smith writes (as part of a negative review of "Contact"): >"I don't much mind if a poor sap like Greg Bear who knows not what >he does has a mathematician invent a pi-meter to detect changes in >the value of pi." Bear's pi-meter (which appeared in the novel "Eon") was a quite reasonable way to measure the local curvature of space. Measure the circumference and diameter of something, divide them, and if the value is less than pi then space is positively curved, and if greater, then space is negatively curved. One could do an analogous thing on the surface of the ocean (which is locally flat). Tie a rope to some fixed point on the ocean, and then sail around the point holding on to the rope in order to trace out a circle. Make sure that the rope is floating on the surface at all times. Measure how far you sail and the length of the rope. Divide the two, and you'll find that the sea is curved. The inventor of the pi-meter was trying to do the same thing inside an alien artifact. By the way, I thought that the human science in "Contact" was done very well, and that it was nice description of how science really works. Too many sf novels show scientists rigging up major inventions in a matter of days, and doing it all by themselves. An accurate description of the process of science is actually a lot more valuable than accurate science in an SF novel, because speculative science is bound to be wrong in some way. If you're right on the human parts you can fudge the physics. John Redford DEC-Hudson ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 87 17:51:28 PST (Thursday) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #20 From: "Michael_R._Aden.RDES"@Xerox.COM I found the Covenant series to be excellent reading. Six books may seem a bit long, but they DID cover a lot of ground. I have to admit, however, that my biases lie towards larger books with well developed characters and histories; this tends to set them apart from the more typical 100 page scifi pulp (insert apologies here if necessary). In that vein, I'm curious as to your views on the quality of other more developed series of books ( examples which spring to mind are the Dune books, Asimov's Foundation stuff, and Tolkien, to name a few). Particularly, if anybody knows of something they consider better than Dune, I'd be VERY anxious to hear about it. Michael Aden aden@whereveriam.idunno ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 12:05:56 GMT From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) Subject: Stephen Donaldson The first Thomas Covenant trilogy was excellent:-a fine fantasy adventure with original treatment,excellent characterisation,psychological/emotional content,epic set-pieces:all that could be wanted. The second trilogy could have been as good,but by now Covenant is in such a perpetually morose,despondent state it is hard to feel compassion; and the character of Linden Avery marrs what could still have been a fine work (after all,the imagery and beauty of the language are still there): she just isn't interesting,and especially when the trilogy for long parts is written from her point of view,the attention wanders. She comes across as being to selfish and unworthy of respect. I've also read 'Daughter of Regals'. Although there are good points this collection comes across as being very weak. I hope the new series is stronger. jml ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 11:54:14 GMT From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) Subject: Re: Donaldson philm@astroatc.UUCP (Phil Mason) writes: >alle@ihlpl.UUCP (Marguerite Czajka) writes: >>Through my book club, I got "Mirror of Her Dreams" by Stephen >>Donaldson. I think I have the author right! - anyway the one who >>wrote the Thomas Covenant books. Since I enjoyed the TC books, I >>thought I'd read this one but I was surprised to find out it >>doesn't end - it says it's continued in "A Man Rides Through". >>Does anyone know if this second book is out? I couldn't find it >>the bookstores I went to, and the book club doesn't list it. > >I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing. Yes, there >were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found the >climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get there. >Anyone else out there feel the same? Or does the ending appeal to >most everybody? Two points to this one; I got the impression from reading the bit at the end of "Mirror of Her Dreams" that the story will be *concluded* in "A Man Rides Through", so I don't think we'll be in for another six books with the one basic storyline. Second point about the TC books, I think you *must* read them as separate (though related) trilogies; (My paperback versions of the first set is labelled "the chronicals of ...." and not "the first chronicals of...") I still feel that Donaldson would have been better to let the first trilogy stand on its own, and not take away from it with a slightly second-rate followup. (Before the flames start, I thoroughly enjoyed both sets, I really like Donaldson's style of writing, but I feel he could have done a better job on the second trilogy!) The ending of the first trilogy was, I think, very good. The ending to the second was fairly obvious from about halfway through "The Wounded Land", and it got a bit frustrating waiting for two years until the final book was published! ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 87 11:38:12 GMT From: hscfvax!spem@rutgers.edu (G. T. Samson) Subject: Re: Donaldson jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) writes: >[...] I still feel that Donaldson would have been better to let the >first trilogy stand on its own, and not take away from it with a >slightly second-rate followup. Indeed. It was good, but not AS good... >(Before the flames start, I thoroughly enjoyed both sets, I really >like Donaldson's style of writing, but I feel he could have done a >better job on the second trilogy!) The ending of the first trilogy >was, I think, very good. The ending to the second was fairly >obvious from about halfway through "The Wounded Land", and it got a >bit frustrating waiting for two years until the final book was >published! Yeah, he DID telegraph a bit, didn't he? I mean, "I need One Tree wood for the new Staff, but I can't have any... *sigh* WAIT! Look! What's in bloody hell's happened to Vain's arm?" Still, though, I enjoyed the 2nd trilogy's ending... not because I hadn't guessed at it, but because my mental image of it wasn't written in Donaldson's prose style. Also, it was so NECESSARY... G. T. Samson gts@hscfvax.HARVARD.EDU gts@borax.LCS.MIT.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 87 18:46:36 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB) Subject: Life imitating art morganha@tekecs.UUCP (Morgan Hall) writes: > This is an interesting case of life imitating art. (Another >example is the book "Venus on the Half Shell" by Kilgore Trout. >Kurt Vonnegut Jr. metioned it in one of his books, then wrote it >under a pen name.) Actually, as I understand it, Philip Jose Farmer wrote "Venus on the Half Shell" under the name Kilgore Trout. Vonnegut did not know of it at the time, and was somewhat annoyed with Farmer when he found out (mostly because everone thought he had written it). Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 87 08:26:28 GMT From: mimsy!chris@rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Spellsinger You may be happy to hear that the latest Spellsinger book has an ending that shouts, `ENDING!' (The worst thing about _Spellsinger_ was that it was clearly Part One of Two, except that Warner never mentioned that on the cover. On the other hand, they did have a box on the last page to warn of the sequel.) Chris Torek Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7690) UUCP: seismo!mimsy!chris ARPA/CSNet: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 04:23:11 GMT From: drivax!alexande@rutgers.edu (Mark Alexander) Subject: Re: Friedberg stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes: >I didn't see the original article, just a followup, but Gertrude >Friedberg wrote "The Revolving Boy", vintage unrecalled. "The Revolving Boy" was reprinted as an Ace Science Fiction Special in 1968, by permission from Doubleday & Co. It is a great book, BTW. Here is what it says about the author: Although The Revolving Boy is Gertrude Friedberg's first novel, her short stories have appeared in Fantasy and Science Fiction, Atlantic Monthly, Harper's, Esquire, Story Magazine and New World Writing. She was also the author of the play Three Cornered Moon, which was produced in 1933 with Ruth Gordon in the lead; it was later adapted for a film starring Claudette Colbert. This should give you a start in finding some more of her writing. I haven't heard of any more sf novels, though. Mark Alexander {hplabs,ucbvax!decvax}!decwrl!pyramid!amdahl!drivax!alexande ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 87 11:45:43 cet From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: BOOK REQUEST I'm looking for a copy of a book titled "Under The Mountain", by Maurice Gee. The problem is that it was apparently only printed in Australia/New Zealand. It was the basis for a miniseries of the same title that ran in the US as part of the anthology series "The Third Eye" on Nickelodeon. (BTW, Nickelodeon has had some great stuff on; the rest of "The Third Eye", "The Tomorrow People", and right now they are running Animated Star Trek.) If anyone can help me find a copy of this book, I would be GREATLY appreciative!!! George D. Madison ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 87 17:18:34 GMT From: drivax!alexande@rutgers.edu (Mark Alexander) Subject: Re: Man-Machine Interfaces. pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes: >How about Neuromancer by William Gibson , this is one of the best >books I've read in a long time. I know neuromancer is a debut novel >but does anybody know if he has written anything else yet and what >it's called. The sequel is called _Count Zero_. I read it without reading Neuromancer, and I confess I wasn't as impressed as all the reviewers made me expect I'd be. It seemed like Gibson skimmed a lot of BYTE magazines to pick up some jargon and a few technical ideas, but it didn't convince me. I kept thinking through the whole book that everything he was describing would seem out of date in 5 years. Even the explanation of the title (some mumbo-jumbo about "on interrupt, decrement counter to zero") didn't seem right, somehow. I realize that most successful science fiction works by giving the illusion of technical accuracy in this way, but I found it harder to suspend disbelief with Gibson than I did with some novels that are even more fantastic and less technically accurate, like Bester's _Tiger Tiger_ (aka _The Stars My Destination_). Since I'm in the minority, it must be my problem, not Gibson's. Mark Alexander {hplabs,ucbvax!decvax}!decwrl!pyramid!amdahl!drivax!alexande ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1987 14:57 CST From: John Bertram Geis(Syzygy Darklock) Subject: The Stainless Steel Rat I have a question. Have there ever been any plans made to make a "Stainless Steel Rat" Movie. Just recently, I found a book which contained a collection of three of James Bolivar DeGriz's best adventures, The Stainless Steel Rat The Revenge of the Stainless Steel Rat and The Stainless Stell Rat Saves the World. Once again, I have become immursed in admiration for Harry Harrison's genius, just as I was when I read "The Stainless Steel Rat for President" and "A Stainless Steel Rat is Born". It strikes me that someone is that "magical" land of HollyWood would have jumped at the chance to bring these stories to the screen. So, why didn't they?? Anybody out there have any knowledge as to whether or not such an offer was ever made to Harry Harrison, and if so, then what happened to it? (Oh, and before the flames start, I am not advocating that all good SF should or could be made into great movies, but I am merely stating that I am surprised that no one ever seemed to try with the "Rat" books!) P.S. Anybody out there know of any other Stainless Steel Rat stories that I haven't found yet? If so, please advise me, so that I may make a point of searching for them. Thank You. John B. Geis GEISJBJ @ UREGINA1 ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 87 18:28:49 GMT From: sdcrdcf!markb@rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Contact What I think is most interesting about this book is that Sagan (who is about as pure an agnostic as you can get) is admitting to the fact that he would except a sufficiently sophisticated "Watchmaker" argument for the existence of God (at least an intelligence that created the universe). The whole bit about the picture of the circle embedded in the digits of PI is just an example of what he would except as evidence. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ From: Jeff Dalton Date: Wed, 21 Jan 87 20:31:09 GMT Subject: Free Live Free From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) > My recomendation: Read the book if you can get it without paying > for it. Or if given to you, then read the first part of the book, > then skip directly to the last part -- the middle isn't really > necessary to the ending. To me, everything's worth reading (provided that you like Wolfe) *except* the end. No criticism of Bruce intended, I just happen to like different things. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 87 16:40:13 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: "Adrian Mole" > The Growing Pains of Adrian Mole is, co-incidentally, like The >Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy a TV series of the book of the >radio series. When I was in Australia I read a newspaper article praising THE SECRET DIARY OF ADRIAN MOLE, AGE 13 3/4 and its sequels, and went out and bought the book. Neither book nor article mentioned a pre-existing radio show. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 14:56:16 GMT From: osupyr!rhr@rutgers.edu (Robert Robinson) Subject: Another Question I was wondering if anyone knew the name of the editor(s) of a book named "Eerie, Wierd, and Wicked". As I remember, it contained several short stories by different authors. Thanx, cbogsd!osupyr!rhr ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 87 19:47:35 GMT From: uokmax!rmtodd@rutgers.edu (Richard Michael Todd) Subject: Re: HF (Hitler Fiction) KFL@MX.LCS.MIT.EDU writes: > There is also Gregory Benford's _Century of Progress_ Methinks you meant Fred Saberhagen's _A Century of Progress_. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jan 87 0837-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #34 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 28 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 34 Today's Topics: Television - Japanese Animation (5 msgs) & Blake's 7 (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Jan 87 16:24:26 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Questions about Robotech kalash@unisoft.UUCP (Joe Kalash) writes: >> ... What about Carl Macek's plot hacks like turning Protoculture >> into an energy source (ugh!) ... > >Ah, ha. This implies there are people out there who understand >Robotech. Could somebody PLEASE explain it to me? I have seen >several different episodes, and have never had any real idea of >what in hell is going on. Like, what is Protoculture (it is >mentioned several times, but never even remotely explained, it just >seems to be important), ... ***MINOR SPOILER if you're going to see Macross in the Japanese*** Well, Protoculture *isn't* a power source (though, when you think about it,... ;-) Y'see, protoculture is just our backward, under-evolved way of going about things. This applies especially to our, ahem, breeding habits, and other *biological* functions. The Big Guys had given up such petty concerns centuries ago: their women and men are kept *very* separate, the women beating up on the throwbacks on one side of the galaxy, the men on the other. The Big Guys thought they were beyond such annoyances as hormones, until they got a look at Minmei. (Notice all those Minmei dolls the Big Guys carried around? ;-) Also, they cut out my favorite scene: Remember when Minmei and Rick got stuck inside the SDF-1? (There was a wedding ceremony.) Well, when they get back, Minmei introduces Rick to her (uncle? father?): "This is Rick. My husband." The expression on Rick's face, just before he fainted, was priceless. seismo!nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: Thu 22 Jan 87 02:33:00-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: Japanese Animation I cannot recommend "Warriors of the Wind"; it is a vivid example of what American companies do to beautiful Japanese animated movies. They destroy it. "Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind" was raped, and "Warriors of the Wind" is the bastard offspring of that rape. Crucial scenes were cut, and the overall feeling left by a viewer is one of confusion. The ecology message ("Nausicaa" was dedicated to the WWF) was totally lost in "Warriors". Even if you don't understand Japanese, "Nausicaa" in Japanese makes more sense than "Warriors" in English does as long as you have an elementary plot synopsis. Curiously, the company wasn't Harmony this time. It was Manson (I wonder if the first name was Charles???). The much superior "Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind" is 9800 yen in Laser Disc format (about $65 at today's of $1 = 150 yen). I got my copy at Ishimaru in Akihabara (great place, they give you coupons good for sizable discounts on subsequent purchases; I bought hundreds of dollars of animation laser discs there). Of course, if you buy from rip-off places like Books Nippon you can expect to pay twice as much. I dread what they are going to do to "Laputa", a new movie by the same director (Mizazaki Hayao). It was one of the most popular animated movies of 1986 in Japan. I bought it as well, and with only some fragments of dialog my Japanese friends culled from magazines I had no problem in understanding it. I speak some Japanese, so that's a bit of an advantage, but my wife who knows no Japanese had no problem either. Anyway, it is rumored that the same jerks are going to come out with an English language version of "Laputa". Groan. Let's hear it for another blow against real understandings of anime. In other news... The last "Urusei Yatsura" story was released a day or so ago. Evidentally Takahashi Rumiko has decided to move on to other things. As soon as I find out what the final story is I'll pass it on to anybody who is interested. Don't despair, a Urusei Yatsura 5 movie is in the works. A script was finished late last November, according to Movement!, the fan club (Kitty Animation Circle) magazine. The story is still a secret though. It's possible that we'll continue to see Lum-chan and Ataru in a series of movies, much as the Star Trek series. It's much better to have a few movies than many TV shows and comics that are going downhill, isn't it? The complete Urusei Yatsura TV series will be released on Laser Disc (50 in all) to Kitty Animation Circle members. It's a bit expensive -- 330,000 yen (about $2100) -- but well worth it for a true fan. It may be too late to order it, but if you're interested send me a message and I'll give you the details. Mark ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 87 04:59:26 GMT From: lsuc!jimomura@rutgers.edu (Jim Omura) Subject: Re: Questions about Robotech I'll just summarize the "enemies". I expect you'll get other responses anyway. Long ago, there were the Robotech Masters. At some time in their history Zor, a scientest, developed/discovered 'protoculture'. Protoculture is probably a plant derivative, but it's not clear (it may well be the plant itself). With the aid of protoculture the Masters' culture evolved and they developed specialized genetic types for specific purposes. Musica and her sisters make music, the leaders lead, the soldiers fight, etc. One of the genetic developments were the Zentraedi. This type was to be a sort of military/police arm for the Robotech society. However, they rebelled and developed into an independant race. I'm unclear as to how the Invid developed, but it is clear that they are not linked to the Robotech Masters. They seem to have developed on their own and simply come into conflict with the Masters when their Flower of Life was found to grow by feeding on Protoculture. It may be that this had something to do with the discovery of Protoculture. I've missed a lot of the later episodes. Anyway, the SDF-1 was a lost spaceship which crashed on the Earth. It's origins are also unclear. On the one hand, it seems to be a Zentraedi ship, but the design is unlike any other Zentraedi ship. In the Robotech world (as opposed to the Macross world) it might be that the SDF-1 was an old ship from the days when the Robotech Masters ruled the Zentraedi. The Zentraedi came to Earth to recover the SDF-1 in order to regain the lost secret of Protoculture. The Robotech Masters came to recover the SDF-1 later for the same reason. It would be interesting to find out what the original 3 stories were about. It has been hinted that Protoculture was something other than an energy source prior to Macek. In the Robotech version, Protoculture is a sort of panacea. It is an energy source for all Robotech Master and Zentraedi spaceships and vehicles, it helps in the cloning process and likely helps in growing food. Cheers! Jim O. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 87 23:40:52 GMT From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Questions about Robotech Some corrections to the recent postings of Robotech. My source is The Robotech Graphic Novel and the Series. The Novel was based on a story by Carl Macek and is available from Comico. They also do graphic adaptions of the three segments but the quality is nowhere near the series or the Graphic Novel. jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes: >I'll just summarize the "enemies". I expect you'll get other >responses anyway. > > Long ago, there were the Robotech Masters. At some time in their > history Zor, a scientest, developed/discovered 'protoculture'. > Protoculture is probably a plant derivative, but it's not clear > (it may well be the plant itself). With the aid of protoculture > the Masters' culture evolved and they developed specialized > genetic types for specific purposes. Musica and her sisters make > music, the leaders lead, the soldiers fight, etc. One of the > genetic developments were the Zentraedi. This type was to be a > sort of military/police arm for the Robotech society. However, > they rebelled and developed into an independant race. The Zentraedi are not independent of the Masters. The plot of the Graphic Novel made this clear as did certain segments of the series. The plot of the Graphic novel explained a great many things and I will briefly go over the plot. (Certain Spoilers but no more than was given in previous postings) Zor invented/discovered Protoculture. THey used this to protogenetically create the zentraedi race. Using Zor's Battlefortress, the SDF-1, Zor and Dolza along with other Zentraedi "seeded" planets with Spores from which more protoculture grew. The Invid need the protoculture to live and frequently attack these seeding expeditions. The Zentraedi defend Zor from these attacks. The Robotech Masters used the robotechnology to wage war and conquer the galaxy using the Zentraedi as their agents. Now, Zor did not wish for his discoveries to be used for war so while the Zentraedi were defending against an Invid attack, he sent the SDF-1 on a preprogrammed flight through Hyperspace to Earth where he hoped we would use the technology for peaceful purposes. During that selfsame attack, He was killed by the Invid and his body was brought back to to the Robotech Masters homeworld where they tried their techniques of breaking the body apart and reviving racial memories in order to obtain the co-ordinates of the SDF-1. The recovery of the SDF-1 was quintessencial to the Robotecxh Master's continual existance because it contained the protoculture factory. Dolza ordered Breetai's fleet to seek out and recover the SDF-1. Now, the SDF-1 in its original form looked much different before we repaired the remains. The Zentraedi, being a purely warlike race, were deliberately kept in the dark about the inner workings of robotechnology and protoculture. This was a precaution on the Masters part so that the Zentredi would not rebel against Masters. Dolza resented this and that is why he was anxious to recover the SDF-1. Some more evidence supporting that the Zentraedi are still working for the Robotech Masters (In the series, it was quite explicit in the GN) was when Breetai and Exodore recognised the SDF-1 as Zor's Battlefortress("Boobytraap") and when Khyron the Desroyer (in "To the Stars") said that he would destory the two SDF's and "REJOIN THE ROBOTECH MASTERS" > I'm unclear as to how the Invid developed, but it is clear > that they are not linked to the Robotech Masters. They seem to > have developed on their own and simply come into conflict with the > Masters when their Flower of Life was found to grow by feeding on > Protoculture. It may be that this had something to do with the > discovery of Protoculture. I've missed a lot of the later > episodes. > Anyway, the SDF-1 was a lost spaceship which crashed on the > Earth. It's origins are also unclear. On the one hand, it seems > to be a Zentraedi ship, but the design is unlike any other > Zentraedi ship. In the Robotech world (as opposed to the Macross > world) it might be that the SDF-1 was an old ship from the days > when the Robotech Masters ruled the Zentraedi. The Zentraedi came > to Earth to recover the SDF-1 in order to regain the lost secret > of Protoculture. The Robotech Masters came to recover the SDF-1 > later for the same reason. As I said before, We changed the design when we repaired the ship. Remember Breetai and Exodore's surprise when they saw the Battlefortress? Stephen Pearl VOICE: (201)932-3465 US MAIL: LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903 UUCP: ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl ARPA: PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 87 23:44 ??? From: KGEISEL%CGIVC%cgi.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: Harmony Gold Tapes I have heard rumors about Robotech : The Movie being axed due to a bad debut in Dallas and The Next Generation not selling to any TV stations. It seems to me that before the series hit TV at all, Harmony Gold offered the 1st saga (with the other 2 planned) in purchasable video tape format. I wonder if they will be offering the Movie etc. and I wonder if all 3 sagas were, in fact, eventually offered this way. We know that America can't handle intelligent SF animation yet, but it might be somewhat profitable to offer lots of Japanimation in video tape singles. Granted, it would be expensive, but there is a real audience out there, even if it isn't big enough to justify broadcasting. Besides, it has been proven tapes can get down to $19.95. I am sure you might be able to persuade your local rental store to carry such tapes. I mean, if they carry Transformers and He-Man, they might as well carry something with substance. Another possibility is higher cable channels. I remember Showtime showed the whole Thunderbirds 2086 long before it hit TV. It is possible some cable companies could pick up Robotech & others. In any case, I am not sure if Harmony Gold is still doing this or if they will do this for the new stuff. (They must have put SOME effort into chopping and voice-overs, so they will try to get a profit in any way possible.) I have the first few epsiodes of Robotech saga 1 in purchased video tapes from Harmony Gold. For those of you who would like to check up on it, here is their address (from which you could originally order tapes): Harmony Gold, USA, Inc. 8033 Sunset Blvd., Suite 4022 West Hollywood, CA 90046 Kurt Geisel ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 87 21:31:56 GMT From: crash!victoro@rutgers.edu (Dr. Snuggles) Subject: Re: Blake's Seven kevinb@crash.UUCP (Kevin Belles) writes: >Say, was there ever any toys or models for Blake's Seven? I know >there was Some Corgi stuff for Thunderbirds, but wondered if they >ever did anything similiar with Blake's 7.... I believe that Corgi did come out with a model "Liberator" and I once found a model from another company at a local Toys-R-Us about a year back. >P.S. Watched the last episode...Why don't they have endings like >that in American TV? I've been told that the suicide rate in Britain rose 20% after that last episode was aired. This could also be due to the usual rise of the suicide rate over the Christmas season, as the episode aired a few days before Christmas. Victor O'Rear {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 87 22:57:59 GMT (Sorted by Postman Pat) From: Drew Subject: Re: Blake's Seven >>I wrote: don't slag off Blake's Seven: I went to school with Terry >>Nation's son, Darryl Smith, (the family name is Smith not Nation >>fact fans), for fourteen years and they live in the next village >>to me so watch out. > >Eleanor Evans wrote: I watched Blake's Seven avidly (if in some >amount of confusion) while I was studying in Glasgow. I have been >looking for books from the show, or tapes of it, or ANYTHING - >mostly so I can tell my friends here about it and not have them >look at me like I was losing my mind. Can anyone give me any >pointers? Well, I could help sort of: I understood the Blake's 7 books are all still available if you write to the BBC directly: and I'm not too sure if there was not a video released of it as well... If anyone gets stuck they could mail me direct, (please have patience with our FTP here), and I *could* tell you Terry Nation's home address if things are getting too desperate for you all. Drew@uk.ac.bradford.central.cyber1 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jan 87 0853-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #35 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 28 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 35 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' (10 msgs) & First D&D story (3 msgs) & Boskone & NorEasCon 3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 87 22:18 CDT From: "FOREST::IWAMOTO%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' I've always known that science fiction fans prefer not to be referred to as: 'SCI-FI' fans. Further, we (and I do include myself in the category as a science fiction fan) apparently take exception to referring to anything as 'SCI-FI'. The thing about it is, even though I've been a fan for about 20 years, I've never really understood why it is considered a NO-NO to refer to it as 'SCI-FI'. Frankly, in my early years as a fan, I DID refer to it as 'SCI-FI'. Elucidations, please !!! Warren M. Iwamoto Texas Instruments, Inc. iwamoto%forest%ti-eg.csnet@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 17:24:13 GMT From: utastro!allen@rutgers.edu (J. Allen Hill) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' I thought that (until the last decade or so) Science Fiction was abbreviated "SF" in writing, but pronounced "sci-fi". These days, maybe we are used to a mouthful of letters..... J. Allen Hill Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712 {allegra,ihnp4}!{ut-sally,noao}!utastro!allen (UUCP) allen@astro.UTEXAS.EDU. (Internet) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 19:42:43 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' From: "FOREST::IWAMOTO%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET >I've always known that science fiction fans prefer not to be >referred to as: 'SCI-FI' fans. Further, we (and I do include >myself in the category as a science fiction fan) apparently take >exception to referring to anything as 'SCI-FI'. The thing about it >is, even though I've been a fan for about 20 years, I've never >really understood why it is considered a NO-NO to refer to it as >'SCI-FI'. Frankly, in my early years as a fan, I DID refer to it >as 'SCI-FI'. >Elucidations, please !!! Historically, the term "sci-fi" has been used in a deragatory manner by people who do not believe that sf/science fiction/speculative fiction/whatever this stuff is is a valid form of literature. Use of "sci fi" correlates highly (but not perfectly, I admit) with condescension to the genre, feelings of superiority to "that Buck Rogers stuff," and dismissal of the genre as trash. Serious sf fans, therefore, often reject the term "sci-fi" in favor of "science fiction" or (especially in reference to recent soft-science or new-wave works) "speculative fiction" or "sf". Some fans will use "sci-fi" themselves as a derogatory term for something which fulfills the mainstream's expectations of sf; for example, Battlestar Galactica is sci-fi. Personally, I prefer to use "sf" and get a bit riled when people use "sci-fi", but not much unless they actually intend to insult the genre. Often people use "sci-fi" because it's the term they're used to or they don't know that many people reject it, so you can't assume they use the term because they mean its implications. And if you really want to say that something is bad, call it "sci-fi" but pronounce it "skiffy". Alf is skiffy. Shoshanna Green ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 87 18:50:56 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >Personally, I prefer to use "sf" and get a bit riled when people >use "sci-fi", but not much unless they actually intend to insult >the genre. Often people use "sci-fi" because it's the term they're >used to or they don't know that many people reject it, so you can't >assume they use the term because they mean its implications. That's a lot like the local reaction here in the SF Bay Area when someone refers to Baghdad-by-the-Bay as "Frisco" (I have that reaction to "Frisco", try as I might to get over it). I've never felt a negative reaction to "Sci-fi", though, and prefer it to "SF" because it's easier to pronounce, but I usually say "Science Fiction" to be sure I'm understood. One problem these days is that many (most?) bookstores have merged SF and Fantasy into the same shelves marked "Science Fiction". This doesn't *really* bother me because I love both genres equally, but I always think the "and Fantasy" addition to the little signs. Has anyone come up with a broader description for writings in all the categories bookstores include on the SF shelves? ("Science Fiction", "Speculative Fiction", "Fantasy", and, often enough, "Occult" (like Tanith Lee)). Where do you place Brian Aldis in this mad spectrum? On the other hand, Battlestar Ponderosa deserves what it gets. :-) Kris Stephens 408-746-6047 amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com Amdahl Corporation ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 87 00:06:33 GMT From: bnrmtv!perkins@rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' > though I've been a fan for about 20 years, I've never really > understood why it is considered a NO-NO to refer to it as > 'SCI-FI'. Simply put, "sci-fi" is the term used by outsiders when speaking (derogatorily more often than not) of the genre. If we say "SF", they usually think we're referring to San Francisco. Hence "SF" doesn't have the negative association that "sci-fi" does. Henry Perkins {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 87 14:06:37 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >Historically, the term "sci-fi" has been used in a derogatory >manner by people who do not believe that sf/science >fiction/speculative fiction/whatever this stuff is is a valid form >of literature. Use of "sci fi" correlates highly (but not >perfectly, I admit) with condescension to the genre, feelings of >superiority to "that Buck Rogers stuff," and dismissal of the genre >as trash. Can you give any evidence that this "historical" footnote is true? I have been assuming that "sci fi" became a no-no in the way (for instance) "Frisco" for San Francisco did: some pinheads with influence just decreed this as Truth. The rest follows. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 17:55:06 GMT From: valid!jao@rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' "Sci-fi", though originally coined by Forrest Ackerman, a true fan, was grabbed up and taken to heart by the news media, general public, and non-fen in general. Thus it is shunned in favor of "SF" by those who know and love science fiction. There is a strong element of snobbishness here, but that's ok. Personally, I like to use "SF" to refer to most science fiction, and reserve "sci-fi" for failed science fiction produced for non sf-lovers. This usually be a movie (such as "The Star Fighter") or a TV program (such as "Battlestar Galactica"), but it could apply to a book. I haven't read Carl Sagan's "Contact", but from net.comments, it sounds like it could be sci-fi. John Oswalt amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 87 20:34:29 GMT From: ut-ngp!tmca@rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' Then there was that song by Cliff Richard: "Sci-Fi" - phew, major uncool as some would say. If that ain't enough to put you off the phrase then what is? With regard to those who comment on putting 'fantasy' under 'science fiction' and similar misclassification in the shelves of a bookshop/library.. the worst example of this that I ever saw was: 'Occult and Cosmology' !!! It's funny I couldn't find anything by Einstein or Hawking, just this stuff about dancing naked around the fountain at midnight. Must try it sometime... ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 87 22:43:20 GMT From: c3pe!maugorn@rutgers.edu (Steve Haug) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' I also prefer to use the term SF because it isn't quite as easy to infer the sort of "pulp/comic book" type of connotations that "sci-fi" has come to enjoy over the years. As to the bookstores' classification problems, one way for them to resolve them is to look at the literature from a different angle: SF should be a subclass of Fantasy Literature. Since prehistory, stories with fanciful or mythological or other types of fantastic elements have been enjoyed and used to various ends. Myths, Legends, Fairy Tales all contain elements that are to the senses, "unreal." These unreal elements can be superhuman abilities, strange phenomena, and "unknown lands". To this list, SF often adds "might be possible if..." for developments in technology and even Man himself as well as many others. In the other types of Fantastic stories, these elements are often secondary to the other points in the story. I feel that SF turns into "Sci Fi" when the fantastic elements in the story take precedence over the story itself. Notice that I do not state that this makes a story bad. Personally, I find that I prefer and enjoy the most those stories where the elements (plot, characters, descriptions, setting) add up to something that is MORE somehow than simply the relating of some event that happenned in some setting to some character. And in order for me to feel that a story is "good" (ANY STORY, not just SF) it must meet that criterion. I don't feel that SF writing is somehow immune to the critical analysis that any other kind of art is subjected to. This "more somehow" element can be any number of things, which includes the author making the story "entertaining." All in all, MY two cents in the argument about the worth of art is based upon this premise. I feel that "good" art is something in which the artist has created a work that surpasses the medium that contains it, such as a story being more than the mere narration of events and a poem becomming more than just what the words are saying and a painting or sculpture becoming more than a picture or a statue. What a lot of critics don't seem to realise is that style, genre, and media are tools that the artists use and not the other way round. Hence, the value of the tools is only as good as the skill of the artist that wields them. In this light, the benefit of abstract over pictorial art becomes a useless argument because the it now rests on questions over whether the artist has successfully achieved what he attempted. Sure, a lot of the standards will be subjective and depend on the taste of the individual consumer, but so what? On the other hand, there are ways of finding elements in some work that can have an affect on it's audience. These elements can be studied to some extent and value judgements can be made regarding a work's effectiveness and the skill of the artist using the medium to produce it. It's a strange and uncertain scale, but one can defend it by, for instance comparing how much information and story is conveyed in say a pragraph from "Hamlet" and say a paragraph from a random Harlequinn Romance. I maintain that Shakespeare is the better writer and thus his work has more "artistic" value. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 87 04:06:41 GMT From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' Four quick thoughts on the relationship twixt the term "sci-fi" and real science fiction. 1. I personally dislike the term "sci fi" with a few exceptions. I find it a wonderful perjorative term to describe those spec-fic (speculative fiction; ie, science fiction and fantasy) works which fit easily under the term. (Yes, that's a circular definition.) 2. I dislike it because it ghettoizes science fiction, which is still struggling to escape the critical "urinal" that Vonnegut described it being trapped in many years ago. 3. I do not mind the use of the term as long as mainstream fiction is likewise ghettoized; Orson Scott Card describes it as "Li Fi", that particular type of fiction for which the Nobel prize is awarded and which insists on being regarded as the one true form of "literary fiction". 4. Calling SF "skiffy" is okay by me, as it makes me laugh. "Skiffy: Sticks to the roof of your mind."--Joe Haldeman Kevin J. Maroney mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ Date: Wed 14 Jan 87 10:36-EST From: Elizabeth Willey Subject: First D&D story Cc: king@kestrel.arpa This is a stupid thing to argue about, but I'll bite: Wolfram von Eschenbach, Chrestien de Troyes, and innumerable others, some of whom are even still known as names and not as Anonymous, long preceded Frank Baum's Oz. Parzival, the Arthurian cycle of stories, the Mabinogion, and thousands of folk tales all feature quests, magical implements, etc., etc. People all over the world have been making up stories of this sort for millennia. Please let's talk about books, authors, films, and suchlike, but not with foolish and useless argument. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 87 21:50:16 GMT From: watdragon!hwarkentyne@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Warkentyne) Subject: Re: First D&D story I nominate Beowolf. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 87 19:23:01 GMT From: tekigm!dand@rutgers.edu (Dan C. Duval) Subject: Re: First D&D story If you're merely looking for stories with gods, demons, magic, and the like, why not go all the way back in recorded history to the mythologies of Ancient Egypt and Ur? With a loose enough definition, all literature (including fantasy, science fiction, romance, adventure, etc) starts there. Dan C Duval ISI Engineering Tektronix, Inc. tektronix!tekigm!dand ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 87 14:34:56 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Boskone hotel note Please pass on this information to any of your friends who aren't on the net but may be planning to come to Boskone. There have been some problems with booking rooms over the phone; the hotel has now been told in no uncertain terms that it is to accept room reservations for our block over the phone. The hotel has just told me they have so little other business that they are adding 200 rooms to our block, so there are still rooms available. \Suites/ are being reserved through the committee because we ran out last year and wanted to give first priority to groups throwing open parties, but it now looks like we may be able to give a suite to everybody who wants one. We're currently working on making hotel checkin faster; at least the hotel now understands that 600+ people will be trying to check in between 3 and 6 on Friday. If there's anyone in your group who can possibly put your room on a credit card, \please/ do so; paying cash in advance means the hotel must generate your bill at checkin, which causes a delay. There is an unfortunate typo in the progress report: parking at the hotel costs $10 per night rather than $7. ($10 was pegged in our contract last May; it's now $11 for non-Boskone hotel guests and worse for people not registered at the hotel.) For people coming in from some distance, parking at Riverside and taking the trolley in to the hotel will be inconvenient but much cheaper ($1 per day for parking, $1.35 per person for both ways on the trolley). Chip Hitchcock chair, Boskone XXIV ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 87 20:20:19 PST From: Bob Pratt Subject: NorEasCon 3 I know it isn't 'til 1989, but I was wondering if the con had an e-mail address. OK, pretty random question, but their mailing address is at MIT, and MIT does have a few computers. If anyone out there knows an answer (yea or nay) to this, please either post your reply or mail it to me. Thanx, Bob ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jan 87 0912-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #36 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 28 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 36 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (5 msgs) & Hogan (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Jan 87 02:24:44 GMT From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) Subject: Re: 17 of these bloody things (was Teckla) ddb@viper.UUCP (David Dyer-Bennet) writes: >Your subject line was re: Teckla, but I wonder if you have in fact >read that latest contribution to the, er, cycle. I think Teckla is >considerably different from the first two, for better or (and?) for >worse. Urg. Yes, Teckla is considerably different in tone from the first two, and there is considerable (too much?) character development. But, then, that was true about the 3rd Thieve's World book, the 4th+ Foundation book, the >3rd Flux & Anchor book, the 3+rd Deryni book, the 2nd Chronicles of Amber, the later Thomas Covenant...ghads! I could go on forever. A common characteristic of all these is that at or about the 5th book, no matter how much I liked the series, the game got tiring. I suspect (boy I could get flamed for this one) that had Gene Wolfe dragged out the Book of the New Sun any longer than he did, I would have throw up my hands in despair. (it was great as it was) My point is that 1 book is fine, 2 are fine, ...even 4 or 5 are fine, but *17*???!!!??!? (ok, 18, but most of the readers of the 1st 3 books don't know that the next is Easterner) Even Proust couldn't pull that off successfully. (well, maybe...) About the only mega-series that worked was Perry Rhodan, but that's mostly because it didn't have any content anyway. (boy, am I asking for it today!) Given the meticulous plot development, I can see how Brust might hold our interest for more than the usually number of volumes...maybe 7 or 8, maybe a few more, but seven (or eight)-teen of them? All I can say is, if he can pull it off, I'll be even more amazed at how good a storyteller he is than I already am. (by 3 or 4 orders of magnitude) ray trent@csvax.caltech.edu rat@caltech.bitnet seismo!cit-vax!trent ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 06:12:27 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Teckla trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) writes: >Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody things? >Sure, you may be one of the best storytellers since JRRT, but even >a most stalwart fan of the Vlad series, such as myself, would get >tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books. I would agree with this. Except that, while JHEREG and YENDI were of the ``light humor'' variety, TECKLA was anything but. If the background remains the same, but different stories are told each time, the series could well remain readable over 17 books; the fact that SKZB could fit into the framework of Dragaera two such different stories as JHEREG and TECKLA suggests to me that he has the competence required to pull it off. As long as he doesn't rest on his laurels and let the series carry itself forward, thereby losing it. For example: so far, we've seen much about Vlad's outlook on the world, from the standpoints of the young Vlad and of the more mature Vlad (although not in that order); we have also seen him grow up even more, and seen some- thing of Cawti's outlook. But there is more to see from Cawti's view; and we have yet to get a look at the outlook of a Dragaeran, except from the outside. And especially limited, given the fact that there are seventeen different *kinds* of Dragaerans. (How do Chreothas fell about it?) How about the undead (i.e. Sethra or the Necromancer)? Or those who ``un-live''(?) beyond Deathsgate Falls? Hints, we've had; again, from the outside. And it sure looks to me like SKZB is a good enough author to be able to write stories from these viewpoints. There's plenty of material there for good stories. If they are written correctly. (Yes, Mr. Brust, you may take that as a warning. :-) Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 781 6201 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 20:49:21 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Teckla trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes: >I just gotta ask. (and hope that skzb doesn't mind direct >questions) > >Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody things? >Sure, you may be one of the best storytellers since JRRT, but even >a most stalwart fan of the Vlad series, such as myself, would get >tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books. Ray, I hate to accuse you of being egotistical, but aren't you being a bit self-centered in all of this? If you get tired of the books after seven or eight, stop buying them. If enough people stop buying them, they'll stop publishing them. And if they stop publishing them, I'll bet Steve will stop writing them. Maybe. Speaking for myself, I hope Steven keeps writing them as long as he WANTS to write them. If Ray decides to stop buying them, I'll just start buying two copies to make up the slack. I mean, seriously, why bitch at someone who is writing good books about writing good books? There are so many mediocre works out there, why not go bitch at THEM to take up some other line of work? Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 21:08:58 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Teckla I almost hesitate to make a response to this, since Scott has written in such a way that just about anything I say will sound like a flame, but whatthehell... Scott Turner says: >The flak has stemmed from the fact that Teckla is in many ways a >poorly written story. Um, are you sure they didn't put an Anthony book in the wrong cover? >The problem with Teckla is that despite all the action in the book, >nothing much happens. Uh, Vlad gets in trouble, gets in more trouble, runs around with an assassin on his ass trying to find a solution, gets in even more trouble, finds a semi-solution, sort of. All the while having a major marital problem. Cawti moves out, there is a major uprising and near rebellion. Uh, what book were you reading? It wasn't Teckla... >But the first task of writing is to present a story, and Teckla >doesn't present much of an interesting story, despite all the >fireworks. Wait a second, there are lots of fireworks and no story? Do I smell either a rationalization or a paradox here? >Not to start an analysis of Brust's career (I think his head is >probably swelled enough with people calling him God) I hate to break this to people, but every time I've dealt with Steven, I've found him to be a mellow and down to earth person. His head is swelled a LOT less than all these wonderful people who get off by beating on people more successful than themselves. There is an old Hungarian proverb: If you can't do something as good as someone else, belittle it. It won't be productive, but you'll feel better. (thank you, Mr. Bananacheck) >Finally, I also disliked Teckla because the ideologies Brust's >presents are not only embarrassingly simple-minded but frankly >quite boring as well. Sigh, I considered a point-by-point refutation of Scott, but it wouldn't do any good. Scott is obviously the final arbiter of taste, and what he belives is what it. He even knows more than the author himself, so what good is it arguing? I'm obviously wrong. So let me just state for the record that I think Scott doesn't know what he's talking about, that I'm not sure he read the same book I did, and that I think he's completely offbase. If you like the kind of reviews Scott does, ignore me. If you like the kind of reviews I do, ignore Scott. There are no absolutes, it is all a matter of personal taste. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 01:24:24 GMT From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) Subject: Re: Teckla chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >Speaking for myself, I hope Steven keeps writing them as long as he >WANTS to write them. If Ray decides to stop buying them, I'll just >start buying two copies to make up the slack. Hurm. I agree conditionally. If Brust continues to *WANT* to write Vlad books, he should. I say "agree conditionally" because I have some trouble with the word "want". I agree, if by "want", you mean that Brust continues to have something interesting to say, or some interesting character development he wants to expound on. From past experience, it seems to me that many authors start out "wanting" to write good stories, but later succumb to commercialism. This seems to happen exclusively when an author gets carried away with the commercial success of (usually, _1_ of) a series. The most familiar example of this syndrome is Piers Anthony's Xanth Trilogy (ha!). As evidenced by some of his earlier work (Tarot, Omnivore, Macroscope, et al) he has the ability to be an excellent writer. Bang! along comes Xanth, and we lose another good storyteller, gaining yet another Alan Dean Hackwriter. The fact that Brust has been able to bring off the first 3 books of the Vlad series so well, does not mean that this quality will last as long as the series. Brust may be able to pull it off. (as I said before, I'll be amazed if he can. (and pleased)) If he can't, or doesn't want to do it well, though, I would *much* rather that he make a *real* ending to the series than leave it open for dozens of drab continuations. I agree, though, that my first posting on this subject was not well thought out. Change it as follows: modify the "please, don't do it", to "please, let the series run out before the quality does." and add the proviso that if the quality continues at its currently high level, I would be more than pleased if the series were to continue as well. ray trent@csvax.caltech.edu rat@caltech.bitnet seismo!cit-vax!trent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 87 11:07 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Hogan Semi-relevant annecdote: In an inteview, Hogan complained about how little research most writers do on the subject on which they are writing. He told about another interview he'd given on computers where he'd told the reporter was that the reason computers were getting smaller and smaller was because they were making the bits smaller these days. The reporter printed this explanation. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 87 04:26:35 GMT From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow, by James P. Hogan Having gone through RPK's LONG article, I have to say I agree with a lot of his points, but mostly the minor ones like holding logs in a person's hand, not using computational resources properly, etc. It just proves that Hogan isn't the world's greatest writer. His characterizations are usually cardboard and he tends not to think everything through which leads to minor (but aggravating to some) oversights and mistakes. However, in my opinion, it's still the best AI-oriented book I've ever read. The AI in the book actually makes sense (as opposed to the AI in The Adolesence of P-1, and Neuromancer to name a few). Hesper, as defined by the book, seems to be a learning system which can learn how to do a job better once it's given some initial knowledge about how to do the job. So ideally, if you want a Hesper system to do traffic control, you take a vanilla Hesper system, set it up with traffic control algorithms in its knowledge bank, and let it rip. It should do at least as well as you programmed it, and fine-tune what you've given it as it gets more experienced. This is consistent with some ways to do AI and how we think they'll work once it hits the real world. The various Hesper system running pieces of the world start intergrating knowledge in strange and unexpected ways coming up with dangerous new solutions to old problems. This again is consistent with the way AI mechanisms work. If you accept the premise that AI systems can exchange knowledge and feed it into their learning mechanisms, you can easily end up with the situation described in Hogan's book. For example, take the earth-moving system in Hogan's book. It most likely knows about explosives and has safety rules that will keep it from detonating things of type "explosive" if people are in the danger radius. Then somehow, it integrates some knowledge from the mass-accelerator system. If the system doesn't classify the inert projectile launched by the mass-accelerator as "explosive" it would behave *exactly* as Hogan described. How does it integrate this extra knowledge you ask? Say it somehow gets hold of ballistic trajectories for something launched by the mass accelerator. At this point, it just looks at them, figures out the mass-accelerator can be used to move objects from the accelerator to point X and stashes it somewhere under "plans for moving objects". Part of its job is to arrange to move bulldozers and the like. While solving other jobs involving moving equipment around the mass-accelerator plans comes under consideration. It looks at it, and rejects it because of say, the acceleration stress placed on anything launched. However, in the process of examining the plan (and other similar ones) it notices that the trajectory of the launched object can be tweaked to deliver kinetic energy onto point X. At this point, it creates a new category of plans called "Ways to move earth->kinetic energy delivery" and files the plan there. In comes the earth-moving request. The systems examines the "Way to move earth" plan categories and selects a number of them for consideration. Among them no doubt are "Explosives", "Earth-moving equipment", and "Kinetic Energy Delivery". There are undoubtedly safety checks in the "Explosives" categories. However, the "Kinetic Energy Delivery" plans seem best and they have *no* safety checks on them. So the system then queries for additional constraints and receives none. It then issues the request to the mass-accelerator. The mass- accelerator sees that the trajectory will result in a danger radius so it checks to see if the area is registered as "inhabited". According to the referenced database, it isn't so the lauch goes off on schedule. Ka-boom! The problem, of course, is that an expert system isn't really an expert at all. It's a problem-solving system. You might say, "Well, one of its constraints should be that people don't get hurt." The problem is implementing that kind of constraint. In order to do that in a comprehensive way, you have tell it what people are, enable it to track where they are, and tell it all the ways that people can be hurt. Then you have to set up some sort of review system to reject plans where people get hurt efficiently. The standard technique is to encode the restrictions with the knowledge. The problem crops up when the system starts adding knowledge that should have restrictions on it, but the system isn't "smart" enough to add the restrictions when it adds the knowledge. As far as people not responding to the system better, this sad to say, is also quite believable. Just read mod.risks (aka RISKS@CSL.SRI.COM). FISE and Spartacus also seem reasonable given recent developments in neural-net techniques. One thing about Two Faces of Tomorrow. Some people come across as being fallible and unable to see all the implications. Unfortunately, history is filled with examples of this, even in a field as young as computer science. Just look at the development of collision detection/avoidance protocols (Aloha to CSMA/CD), or the history of computer language development, or the history of operating systems, or the OSI-network standards effort for some sad examples. People often miss (what later appears to be) the obvious. Ray Chen chen@gatech.UUCP ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jan 87 0931-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #37 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 28 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 37 Today's Topics: Books - Bear & Donaldson & Duane & Farmer & Foster & Gibson (2 msgs) & Hogan (2 msgs) & Sagan & List of Award Winning Novels & Suggestions & Multiple Worlds ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Jan 87 00:21:10 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Bear's pi-meters and Sagan's "Contact" From: redford%rock.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM >Gene Ward Smith writes (as part of a negative review of "Contact"): >>"I don't much mind if a poor sap like Greg Bear who knows not what >>he does has a mathematician invent a pi-meter to detect changes in >>the value of pi." > >Bear's pi-meter (which appeared in the novel "Eon") was a quite >reasonable way to measure the local curvature of space. Measure >the circumference and diameter of something, divide them, and if >the value is less than pi than space is positively curved, and if >greater then space is negatively curved. I don't have "Eon" with me, but as I recall the "pi-meter" could not reasonably be called a space curvature meter. Bear's heroine is a Fields- metal winning mathematician, and a geometer in fact. Obviously, she was capable of wanting to measure the Riemann tensor of space curvature (3 dimensional) or space-time if that was what was involved here. But she was not even measuring scalar curvature, but changes in pi. Even if we define pi as circumference/diameter (and would any mathematician do that?) this does not work as a way of measuring scalar curvature, because this "pi" depends on the diameter of the circle used. Hence I concluded that Bear meant exactly what he said--that pi was changing. And this is nonsense. >By the way, I thought that the human science in "Contact" was done >very well, and that it was nice description of how science really >works. Parts of it were done well. It is this sort of thing which gives me a sense of betrayal when obvious nonsense is introduced later on. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 20:11:59 GMT From: vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James) Subject: Re: Donaldson stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick stirling) writes: >Also I thought he took a lot of ideas from Lord of the Rings, with >close approximations to the names.Eg, Ranyhyn and Rohann (idea = >amazing horses), the sentient forest, the journey under a mountain, >even Souron and Lord Foul. I have to disagree here. There really isn't that much of a similarity between Ranyhyn and Rohann other than the initial 'R', and Donaldson's were far more magical creatures, not to mention far more intelligent. The same is true of his forests, there is a big difference between Fangorn and the Ents and Garrotting Deep and Carroll Wildwood. I thought that the Forestals were one of the more impressive creations in the series. The bit about the mountains, well, in Covenant they were looking for something that happened to be under a mountain, in Tolkien they were taking a shortcut. That mountains are present in each example is simply a reflection of how humanity looks at mountains; as wonderous, perhaps even magical, things. As for any similarities between Sauron and Lord Foul, they are both bad guys. Other than that I don't see much in common. Not even Melkor in all his power was as powerfull as Lord Foul, let alone Sauron. Add to this the Bloodguard (my vote for the most original idea, or at least the most powerfully brought to life), the lack of elves ( though again, you could argue that the Giants fullfilled this function), and the amount of change that the main character goes through and you get two totally different stories. At least, that's my opinion. cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend vnend@engr.uky.csnet cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 87 15:25:00 GMT From: heuring@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU Subject: When will Diane Duane finish? Does anyone know when (if?) the next book in Diane Duane's "Door" series is going to be published? I've read the first two books and have been waiting for the next. Jerry Heuring ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 01:25:31 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu Subject: Venus on the Half Shell morganha@tekecs.TEK.COM (Morgan Hall) writes: > life imitating art. (Another example is the book "Venus on the > Half Shell" by Kilgore Trout. Kurt Vonnegut Jr. metioned it in > one of his books, then wrote it under a pen name.) No, Philip Jose Farmer wrote VENUS ON THE HALF SHELL, based on Vonnegut's mention. Also, Theodore Sturgeon wrote I, LIBERTINE under the pseudonym Frederick R. Ewing after Jean Shepherd referred to it so much on his show that people started asking for it in bookstores. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 87 15:01:03 GMT From: utastro!ethan@rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake It seems pointless to berate A.D. Foster for prostituting his talent. I have never seen *any* evidence that he can write more interesting stories than he currently does. For my own taste, the function of his books seems to be to confuse people looking for M.A. Foster. I don`t dislike him for it and I don't expect any better from him. Ethan Vishniac Dept of Astronomy {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU University of Texas ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 87 20:29:29 GMT From: ee173wav@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU (TODD KUYKENDALL) Subject: William Gibson paperback Hello, I'm writing (after being off the net for a while) and I just thought I'd check in and see if anyone out there has any idea when Gibson's second and third books are coming out in paperback. ( Specifically BURNING CHROME and COUNT ZERO ) I don't mean to step into a potentially charged situation by brandising the much used term cyber-punk, but I really (REALLY) enjoyed NEUROMANCER and would appreciate any guide along these lines... thanks in advance, Tod Kuykendall ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 05:53:24 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: William Gibson paperback >thought I'd check in and see if anyone out there has any idea when >Gibson's second and third books are coming out in paperback. ( >Specifically BURNING CHROME and COUNT ZERO ) Count Zero is on Ace's April list, so it should hit the stores March 20. Burning Chrome isn't on the lists yet (at least, according to the spring announcements I have) so it won't be around until after July. You might also track down Bruce Sterling's anthology "Mirrorshades" which is currently in hardback. It is supposed to be a Cyberpunk anthology. I haven't read it, but I've heard good things. I believe it is from Arbor House, but I'm not positive. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 21:23:00 GMT From: uicsrd!xia@rutgers.edu Subject: Hogan, and his books I have been reading the comments about "The two faces of Tomorrow". I have read another book by Hogan: "Inheret the Stars". I think both books are OK. Hogan usually has good plots for his books, but he has trouble hiding them. What I mean is that the average reader can easily guess what is going to happen in the end. I guess the answer the plot correctly half way through reading Inherent the Star. He is just not very subtle at his style. In SF writing, one great danger is to write too much details about the technical stuff. I think it is not fair to critisize The Two Faces of Tomorrow on its technical ground. Most of the SF stories either lack technical details or are about such grand advanced projects(like the Ringworld). The reason that people have problem with The Two Faces of Tomorrow is that it is: (1) most people in this group are computer experts so they tend to get anoyed by some technical problems in the story. (2) The events described in the book is forseeable(not like the Ringworld) so there are more technical grounds for the readers(expecially the experts in the field) to get upset about it. I will say compare to the technical details of Star Trek, and millions of other SF stories you will see how well The Two Faces of Tomorrow was written. Finally I will thank all the people who have sent me suggestions about SF books. Eugene ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 87 18:21:40 EST From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: Hogan/Hitler: not an alternate WWII history From: NNicoll.ES@Xerox.COM >I am almost finished with Hogan's new book, "Proteus Operation" and >it is good enough that I am sorry to see it end. It has Hitler >winning the war, losing the war, getting shrugged off as the madman >he was and a few other twists as well. Add this to your list of >alternate WWII histories. **another spoiler** I was very disappointed with this book. On about the 5th page I said to myself "Oh no, he's not going to go to all this trouble to do THAT, is he?" I kept hoping for a twist, but he did do THAT. What 'THAT' is, is having all this intervention from the future combine to produce OUR timeline. What a GREAT idea. There are so many interesting ways WWII could have come out better for us (and the world in general) that I was let down that all Hogan had to offer after all the mechanations of all the characters was our own mediocre world. Not really an alternate history. Ted Nolan ted@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 87 17:06:16 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: Contact tom@utcsri.UUCP (Tom Nadas) writes: >Gene, I disagree with your interpretation on two counts. First, >although you are obviously an expert on Pi (an I am not), I don't >agree with you that the point of the circle image hidden in Pi was >so much as a way of God communicating with humanity but rather -- >as the chapter in the book is titled -- simply a way of Him signing >His work. Well, my point was not exactly this. Whether this was God, a superrace which created the universe or what, and whether this was or wasn't an attempt at communication, the point is that this is a completely fantastic and illogical idea. Pi is pi; it is a constant, not a variable. It cannot be modulated and used as a communication channel or whatever. Pi, in other words (unlike, say, the fine structure constant) is not a part of the created universe in the first place. If pi was to be used as a communication channel, it should have been in English or Hebrew or something of that sort. Then it would have been possible to say that a very powerful being influenced us so as to have a language which made us read a message into pi. Ascii characters in English would have done the job very nicely. But this "circle" business makes no sense. >In fact, I bet Sagan's God is surprised and maybe slightly amused >that there are people who would make a study out of Pi. I don't think Sagan saw his God as being that dumb. >Of course, the people who send the Hitler message to Earth found >the Pi circle, too, but I don't think they are "angels" of Sagan's >God (i.e., their knowledge of the Pi circle is possibly independent >of God's wishes). I think a very logical theory is that they are behind the whole thing, including manipulation of our Cray 21 computers. >For me, CONTACT was a great book for several reasons: strong female >character (something rare in SF), interesting commentary on >contemporary religion and the schism between science and theology, >good solid writing. The feminism and commentary on religion and science often degenerated into soap box oratory. But Sagan's point of view is not one-dimensional and some interesting points and strange characters were developed. As I said, I think the writing is a lot better than the science, which is very strange. Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ucbvax!weyl!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 87 18:52:09 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: HUGO & NEBULA-winning novels? jarvis@mit-caf.UUCP (Jarvis Jacobs) writes: >Where can I find a listing of all the HUGO, NEBULA, and/or JOHN W. >CAMPBELL MEMORIAL award-winning novels? The Science Fiction Encyclopedia edited by Peter Nicholls has lists up to, I believe about 1978. I keep hoping that someone will update this wonder one of these days. Another book I've found with lots of neat data in it is the SF Book of Lists. You'll have to dig to find it, but it has all sorts of strange trivia. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 87 23:21:00 GMT From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU Subject: Thanks for the Suggestions So far I have received many many suggestions about SF books. Almost all of them suggested Dune. I got into Dune last year, and to my disappointment, it is let's say, very discersive(sp?) I think I agree with one of my friends who said that Herbert definitely read a lot of books, but Dune was like a literary critique written by a second year college student. The student did not really understand what the work is all about, but he/she went to library and dug out all the essays about the work, and lumped all the ideas together with some transitional phrases. Unfortunately, I found it to be true. Moreover, I think the reason why they cannot make a movie out of it is because there are too many things being discussed in the book but none in depth. Many of you asked me what I mean by big stories. I think this is hard for me to define precisely. I can only give some examples: Ren. with Rama. The Gods themselves. 2001. For all the SF I have read, I like Ren. with Rama the best. That is the best example of what I mean by big story. It is also a real scientific story. It does not assume any fancy wiggits whose working mechanism cannot be understood(Well, except the gravity drive but that wiggit is not really essential to the big space ship). The story gives the reader some real impression of how big the universe is. I mean that we all know that the universe is BIG, XXX light years this way and that way, but it is just numbers. When I think about the universe it is always no bigger than my brain. But this story really gives the reader some glimpse of the vastness of the universe, and our position in it. Many of you had suggested Heinlein's work. As some of you have suggested I have just finished reading The Puppet Master. I don't think it is well written. It is of typical 50's cold war mentality. I have not read any critics about that book, but I do have an impression that this is basically a communism VS. capitalism story. The slugs refered to themselves as "people" and the guys, and girls fighting the slugs keep saying "free man". Well, has anyone read any critique about this book yet? I may be reading more into the story than there really is. I basically think this is a not so good version of SF 1984. eugene ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 87 21:30:40 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: HF (Hitler Fiction) To: mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.RUTGERS.EDU The earliest multiple worlds story that mentioned Hitler is _Earth is Room Enough_ by Isaac Asimov. This was actually written during World War II, so I guess Asimov didn't know which branch we would end up on when he wrote it. There is also Gregory Benford's _Century of Progress_ and James Hogan's _The Proteus Operation_, both of which involve World War II being extended through time and space. I read a short story, I don't recall who it was by or what it was called, in which Hitler is sent one day back through time over and over again to form an Army for himself, as a result of which he dies of old age the same day. Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Jan 87 0817-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #38 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 29 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 38 Today's Topics: Books - Baldwin & Brust & Eddings (2 msgs) & Herbert & Martin & Mitchell & O'Donnell & Sagan & Sheffield & Book Requests (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 28 Jan 87 21:01:31-PST From: Steve Oliphant Subject: Bill Baldwin About 2 years ago Bill Baldwin wrote a book called "The Helsman". It was surprisingly good. Has he written any other books? Is there a sequel coming out? In other words, what has he been doing lately? Thanks. Steven Oliphant oliphant@sumex-aim.stanford.edu ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 08:51:38 PST (Wednesday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Teckla >I just gotta set one thing straight--at no time, in Jar-head, did >Cawti perform an assassination. She helped Vlad, she made a >supposed offer to do an assassination, and like that. But she >never performed an actual murder-for-pay. Arguing with the author about what he meant seems patently foolish on the face of it, but... She did perform a quick and efficient murder in Jhereg, though! (one of Mellar's guards, I believe...) She may have done this for the sake of her husband and perhaps for a little chance to practice the old trade, but without much moral reservation that I could see. This could hardly be termed self defense, or moral outrage at the guard, or any of several 'acceptable' motives for murder. It was killing without compunction for personal gain (perhaps not gold coins, but certainly coin of another sort! Acceptance, her husband's continued survival, greed for the 65k in gold, whatever): Assassination! Webster's definition: Assassinate, n. 1. To murder by sudden and secret attack usually for impersonal reasons. 2. To injure or destroy unexpectedly or treacherously She even smiled her "I know something you don't know..." smile while agreeing to do it. Who knows, though, maybe this guard used to spend his time oppressing the masses in the easterner's quarter on his days off. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 19:22:14 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Belgariad loose ends Is there any serious doubt that Errand is a Godling? He calls Ul "father", though this is quickly and clumsily glossed over. Zedar, one of the top ten sorcerors alive (sort of), can't remember where he found him. His miscellaneous talents include mind control and untying anything. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 02:49:30 GMT From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu Subject: David Eddings and _The Malleorean_ >I have nearly finished _The_Begariad_ series written by David >Eddings, and have not been able to find any other books written by >the author. I did so enjoy the series that I want to read more! A friend who is on a number of review lists has just received advance uncorrected proofs for _Guardians of the West_, the first volume of _The Malleorean_, the new series from Eddings. It occurs after the _Belgariad_, but I know none of the details. It appears, however, that something has gone completely wrong with the prophecy. I do not know when it is due out, but would guess around three months, maybe much less. I also do not know how long it will be. Sorry this is so sparse, but, hey. Kevin J. Maroney mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 16:50:42 GMT From: gloria@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Gloria Anthony) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #20 > Particularly, if anybody knows of something they consider better > than Dune, I'd be VERY anxious to hear about it. Well, I for one was somewhat impressed by DUNE, considering it one of the, say, thirty best S.F. books I had read. I was, however, increasingly less impressed with the sequels. I mean, come on, SON OF DUNE, GRANDSON OF DUNE, WASHERWOMAN OF DUNE, SECOND COUSIN OF DUNE MEETS FRANKENSTEIN . . . Carole Ashmore ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 13:41:05 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu Subject: WILD CARDS I by George R. R. Martin WILD CARDS I edited by George R. R. Martin Bantam Spectra, 1986 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper What if? What if? What if...after World War II aliens had dropped a virus that caused all sorts of mutations. (Space aliens, that is, not German aliens or Japanese aliens.) 90% of the mutations are fatal, but the other 10%--they are the "wild cards." The form of this, uh, book is unusual. It's called a "mosaic novel." No, that doesn't mean it's based on the Biblical books of Moses. It is rather a collection of short stories and connecting threads set in this alternate universe. The stories are more strongly connected (in the mathematical sense) than other shared universe collections I have seen, with characters from one story appearing in others. On the other hand, the stories are presented with their own titles, and a table of contents would be helpful for finding your way around. And how is this alternate world different from ours? Not much. McCarthy goes after the "wild cards" along with his other targets. Even among the wild cards themselves there is factionalism. There are the "aces," those with valuable powers such as teleportation or great strength. And there "jokers," those whose mutations are disfiguring, such as reptilian skin or feline face. The jokers are outcasts, treated as sub-human by most people, restricted to Jokertown, dumped on by the police--if this sounds familiar, it is. "Strings" by Stephen Leigh is the story of the Jokers' Rights Movement, but it is also the story of the march on the Winter Palace, and of the Warsaw ghetto uprising, and of the marches in Selma, and of the Stonewall riot. In the end the value of WILD CARDS is not what it says about superheroes, but what it says about us. If there were superheroes, we would use them and mistrust them and mistreat them as much as we do anyone else. And WILD CARDS reminds us that finding a new group to persecute does not end the persecution of the old groups. As with all good science fiction, it uses that which is fantastical to reflect reality. It gives us the ability to see ourselves as outsiders would see us. If we see the "jokers" persecuted simply because they are "different" and we empathize with them, perhaps we can translate this back to our own lives. And what if we did? Now THERE'S a "what if?" I'd like to see! Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 13:41:38 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu Subject: NEW BARBARIANS by Keith Mitchell NEW BARBARIANS by Kirk Mitchell Ace, 1986 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper The premise of PROCURATOR was that the Roman Empire never fell (something to do with Pilate pardoning some obscure teacher or something). This sequel continues that idea, but does even less with it than PROCURATOR. In both novels, the plot consists mostly of battles. Although the weaponry is somewhat mechanized, the books are basically stories of the Roman legions against the barbarians--in NEW BARBARIANS, the Aztecans. The gimmick of having all sorts of well-known places have Latin names and of having people with Roman names ruling the world (still under an emperor, no less) is starting to wear thin. There is no indication of any change in Roman ways over the last 2000 years, in spite of enormous technological change (up to about the World War II level) and extensive contact with other civilizations. And, as I said in my review of PROCURATOR, one may argue that the fall of the Roman Empire was caused as much by its own size in an era before modern communications as by any external religious movement. Oh, and in NEW BARBARIANS they're just realizing--after 2000 years--that lead plumbing and utensils are poisonous. I find this interesting only because it wasn't mentioned at all in PROCURATOR and I commented on it in my review of that novel. Is it possible Mitchell is reading my reviews? And the Aztecs also are still the same as when Cortez "discovered" them--or at any rate, still the same as the popular image of what they were. I suspect that the actual Aztec society was very different from the popular conception. In addition, the Aztecs were relative new-comers when Cortez arrived, and it strikes me as unlikely that they, rather than other Amerindian societies, would have survived the intervening 500 years. My money would be on the Incans to have expanded their empire north. NEW BARBARIANS, like PROCURATOR, is probably of interest mostly to readers who enjoy setting up fictional conflicts ("What if the Romans had fought the Aztecs?" "What if the Klingons had fought the Kzinti?"). As an alternate history novel that actually tries to predict a fully-realized alternate history from a small change, it doesn't make it. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 87 20:23:08 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu Subject: FBR and McGill Feighan: a popular form of SF TPF abbott@dean.Berkeley.EDU (+Mark Abbott) writes: > I don't have the books here with me but these are a series of 4 > books by Kevin (I believe) O'Donnell about the adventures of > McGill Feighan. If some of those names aren't spelled wrong I'm > amazed. Titles are "Cliffs", "Lava", "Caverns", and "Reefs", not > in that order. A good, fun, silly read. You got it all right. The order (I think) is Caverns, Reefs, Lava and Cliffs. I will note that I found the first of the books to be the best in the series. As FBR becomes less mysterious, it becomes less interesting. In the last book, McGill seems to have found out FBR's species, and to have had a direct contact from it, thanking him for his aid. Of course, at the end of EACH of the books, McGill thinks he has figured out what FBR is up to, and he's been wrong each time, so I have hope he's wrong again. *** mild spoilers in the rest of the posting *** The first book in particular is full of comically presented background material, like why McGill Feighan's name seems to be backwards, what his family and upbringing was like, the nature of being a flinger, and so on and on. The other books lack some of the sparkle of the first, but are still very worthwhile. I'll also note some cross-references that occured to me some time ago between the FBR and other series. First, the protagonist of the M.A.Foster "Morphodite" series. The protagonist of that series has an ability to calculate the consequences of seemingly inconsequential acts, so that one character comments (paraphrased) "he could move a trashcan a meter across the room, and you'd never see the chain of events that would sweep you away and destroy you utterly". This is a very interesting thing to contemplate. The Morphodite eventually is able to, literally, move a paperweight on a table a few centimeters and thereby affect the whole future of human civilization. It seems to me that FBR has a similar "feel" to it of devastating power arising from trivial acts. In the whole series of books, FBR has only done two concrete things that I caught: showed an interest in Feighan at the start, and personally appeared on the scene (thousands of years ago) to a species that eventually would meet Feighan. Yet FBR's opponents never see the chain of events that eventually sweep them from the stage, even when they are (or perhaps BECAUSE they are) expecting unbelievably subtle ploys. (Supposedly, FBR is taking such an indirect role because it is busy elsewhere attempting to prevent or shorten a war that it expects to occur in a few hundred years...) And then, of course, the Tactics of Mistake from the Childe cycle, by Dickson. The line about not bothering scholars, because they consider all your guns, and armies, and power to be mere conceptual toys is particularly apt in this connection. And how about Cordwainer Smith's Instrumentality of Mankind, which sort of governs by not governing (for the most part, sort of, usually...) Or Asimov's psychohistory from the Foundation series. Slight relationships there, too. Of course, all of these are the most marvelous of Teen Power Fantasies. To be able to see so deeply into the nature of things so as to be practically invulnerable, to be the fulcrum about which the universe pivots. A really great, trashy, cheap thrill, isn't it? Ghod, I love it!!! Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 87 22:30:49 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Contact To: sdcrdcf!markb@RED.RUTGERS.EDU From: sdcrdcf!markb@rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) >The whole bit about the picture of the circle embedded in the >digits of PI is just an example of what he would except as >evidence. Ah, but how could you tell it wasn't just chance? That pattern is virtually sure to turn up eventually if you search deeply enough. Quite likely every finite sequence of digits appears sooner or later in pi, including (the binary representation of) the complete works of Shakespeare, and the complete SF-Lovers archives - including this message. Of course you might have to search pretty deeply. There are conclusions other than the existence of God that such a phenomenon could support. For instance that one is a character in a novel. It bothers me that many really bright people in various books and movies never figure out that they are fictional characters. If Spock is so smart and so logical, why hasn't he noticed the 20th century TV format, inconsistencies, and mock-logic of his universe? There are a few cases where characters have reached the correct conclusion, for instance in Heinlein's _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_ and in Robert Anton Wilson's _Shrodinger's Cat_ trilogy (in which some of the characters have mysterious "out of book" experiences. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 87 05:10:44 GMT From: amdahl!chuck@rutgers.edu (Charles Simmons) Subject: Recommendation I recently read a book which I found to be quite a bit better than the usual pulp I wade through, so I thought I'd recommend it. The book is "The Nimrod Hunt" by Charles Sheffield. Just so you'll know whether or not you share my tastes: I love Zelazny, Orson Scott Card, some Spinrad, some Sturgeon. I hate Donaldson, Jack Vance, and Poul Anderson. I like Gibson and Hogan. And I can no longer abide Heinlein. Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Wed 28 Jan 87 14:54:30-EST From: eric(wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@weslyan.bitnet) Subject: "We Also Walk Dogs" During the recent responses to the 'bad businessman' question, two people (so far) have mentioned a story called "We Also Walk Dogs." I remember a story (author unknown) in which a company which will do anything for you (such as walk your dog, throw a party, or I think arrange for you to be in two places at the same time) is contracted by the government to arrange a meeting of various alien races. They solve the problem with some sort of gravity-simulator. Is this the same story ? I remember reading it in a collection of short stories by this author. They each presented some sort of problem which had to be overcome using creative science. Any help out there ? eric j simon wesleyan university wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 87 04:59:25 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Looking for a book: The Company of Adventurers Mike Resnick is currently searching for a book he needs for research purposes on one of his novels. If you know where a copy of "The Company of Adventurers" by John Boyes, published in England in 1928, can be found, please let me know. Thanks, Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Jan 87 0833-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #39 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 29 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 39 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Writing for Money's Sake (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Jan 87 07:50:08 GMT From: sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin) Subject: Writing for money's sake I've noticed a disturbing tendency in writers of SF these days. This may have been discussed here before, but if so, I haven't seen it, and thought I'd bring it up. (Let me preface these remarks by saying that all estimations of literary merit are MINE, although others may share them. I'm avoiding the debate on objective merit) I'm referring to what I call "Piers Anthony syndrome", or writing for the sake of a fast buck. What usually happens is that an author comes out with a book or small series that tells a good story, and tells it reasonably well. So, the sales of the book take off, and the author, sensing that lots of people just can't find anything better to do with their money, writes endless sequels to the book, each one containing less plot and more canned action. A perfect example of this is P.A. and the Xanth "trilogy". _A Spell for Chameleon_ was a reasonable book, with a light tone and entertaining puns. The two following books were at least partially well thought out, with a somewhat less appealing mix of plot, characters, etc. Of course, we all know what followed: a still continuing outpouring of half-finished, poorly written, nauseatingly cute stories, whose only redeeming quality is that they make a ready supply of tinder for those cold winter nights. Other examples include Alan Dean Foster's "Spellsinger" series, which had two well-done (in my opinion) books (_Spellsinger_ and _The Hour of the Gate_) but has worn down into just another series, although not to the extent of the Xanth works. Also, Christopher Stasheff's "Warlock" series seems to fall into this vein, and even Isaac Asimov's attempt to connect the "Robots" series with the "Foundation" series could be viewed as such, although I personally don't think so. Even if it is, the quality of the books has not dropped much, at least in my opinion. Perhaps this is due to the long time span over which the books were written. The whole inspiration for this came when I finished the "Pelmen the Powershaper" trilogy by Robert Don Hughes. I enjoyed the series highly, until the final chapter. Hughes had actually killed several of his main characters, and I was happy to be feeling meloncholy about the loss of the hero, when out of the blue (or is that Deus Ex Machina?) >POOF< all the principals needed for a continuation were made alive...I don't want to spoil the story, so I won't go into it more here. Suffice it to say that in three pages, the groundwork was laid for a sequel. So, the question is (and this may relate to the literary merit debate which I've been avoiding): Why do authors feel a need to endlessly continue stories, in spite of the downward effect it has on the quality of the stories? When Ged mounted the back of Kalessin, in Ursula K. LeGuin's _The Farthes Shore_, and the Doorkeeper said "He has done with doing. He goes home." I thought it was wonderful. He obviously deserved a rest, and I'm glad he got it. Well, this has gone on more than long enough. I have more examples, but I'll let someone else have the floor... Steve Chapin ARPA: sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu UUCP: ...!purdue!sjc ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 87 00:23:51 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin) writes: >I'm referring to what I call "Piers Anthony syndrome", or writing >for the sake of a fast buck. What usually happens is that an >author comes out with a book or small series that tells a good >story, and tells it reasonably well. So, the sales of the book >take off, and the author, sensing that lots of people just can't >find anything better to do with their money, writes endless sequels >to the book, each one containing less plot and more canned action. Substitute "artist" for "author", and "work" for "story/book" and you've stated my sentiments on popularity. This goes for music, "fine" art, writing, and just about every product you can name. > [Proof with Asimov's Foundation, Stasheff's Warlock, et al] I'd also add Heinlein, Phil Collins, Aretha, and the Talking Heads. >So, the question is [...] Why do authors feel a need to endlessly >continue stories, in spite of the downward effect it has on the >quality of the stories? You said it yourself: money. The only other excuse I can think of is that the artist says to himself, "Gee, everyone's buying my last work; I guess that means it's good," and spends the next N years trying to duplicate the success. Are there any popular artists (as defined above) out there who can provide a better explanation, or who outright disagree? seismo!nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 87 18:30:23 GMT From: uwmacc!oyster@rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster) Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake Why do novelists have to continually produce "litrichure"? Does the average computer professional consistently produce top-quality, state-of-the-art software or research papers? (Notice the careful use of the word "average," which was calculated to prevent people with overly large egos from saying "I do!") Not typically-- I personally spend more time telling people, for example, that they used the wrong 'tar' option; not thrilling stuff, but it puts food on the table. Why should writers (or artists in general) be any different? (Well, maybe because they have more of their selves tied into their work than I do, but that's for further discussion...) Joel {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 87 19:49:55 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu.UUCP writes: > Why do novelists have to continually produce "litrichure"? Does >the average computer professional consistently produce top-quality, >state-of-the-art software or research papers? Personally speaking, while I don't write programs that are genius, nor even incredibly useful, when I am told 'Write a program that does A, B, and C', I will often spend hours after the program is written, making it easier to use, faster, or just easier to read. I expect a writer, who has just written something that's not 'litrichure' to keep re-writing, re-reading, editing, and proofreading until he produces something that IS. And, if the story refuses to be good, he should start looking for a new story. Or a new profession. >Not typically-- I personally spend more time telling people, for >example, that they used the wrong 'tar' option; not thrilling >stuff, but it puts food on the table. Why should writers (or >artists in general) be any different? There is a basic difference between your (yes, and my) job, and that of an artist: there's some joker upstairs telling you to explain 'tar' options. If you had your choice between explaining 'tar' options and, *strictly* for example, creating a program that *redefines* programming itself (as a good piece of Art may be able to do), which would you do? While putting food on the table is admirable (especially these days), Art should do something *more*, don't you think? seismo!nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 87 13:13:40 GMT From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake I agree art should be something more than just a 9-to-5 job. However, I don't agree that everything an individual writer does has to be art. If Piers Anthony, say, can put enough money in the bank by writing Xanth novels to give him the luxury of taking the time to do the endless writing, rewriting, and editing one poster seemed to think a more significant work required, that's fine by me. I know where to turn for reviews of new works so that I can maximize my chances of reading wheat instead of chaff. I also know that if the public at large is willing to buy more chaff than wheat, then I can't blame the poor (figuratively and -- often -- literally) writer from selling a little chaff on the side. Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 87 19:46:16 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake I've quoted this before, but I think it bears quoting again (apologies to the author for the gross errors that have no doubt wrecked the music of the original poem): I asked him how can you know if anything you write is any good he said you can't you can never know you die without knowing if anything you wrote is any good if you have to know don't write from "Berryman," by W. S. Merwin By the way, I'm still planning on replying to Charlie Martin's most recent posting. I'm still `thinking on it,' as we say down here. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 16:54:08 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake tom@utcsri.UUCP (Tom Nadas) writes: >I agree art should be something more than just a 9-to-5 job. >However, I don't agree that everything an individual writer does >has to be art. If Piers Anthony, say, can put enough money in the >bank by writing Xanth novels to give him the luxury of taking the >time to do the endless writing, rewriting, and editing one poster >seemed to think a more significant work required, that's fine by >me. I know where to turn for reviews of new works so that I can >maximize my chances of reading wheat instead of chaff. I also know >that if the public at large is willing to buy more chaff than >wheat, then I can't blame the poor (figuratively and -- often -- >literally) writer from selling a little chaff on the side. I agree--like you said, "a guy's gotta eat". But, you assume that by tossing out some 'chaff', the artist can continue to put out some 'wheat'. This rarely happens, in my exerience. More often, after a big success, the artist worries more about the bread than the wheat. (Not always, I admit--Wm. Falkner is one exception.) Can you *really* produce garbage, and have it not affect your Art? nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 18:14:26 GMT From: valid!jao@rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake Steve Chapin writes: > [Long discussion, with examples, of bad "sequalitis"] > Why do authors feel a need to endlessly continue stories, in spite > of the downward effect it has on the quality of the stories? I can think of two reasons. The first is that it is easier to write a sequel than it is to think up new characters and universes. This is the author's fault. The second, and more important, is the readers' fault: publishers have discovered that it is easer to market a sequel than a new story, because readers are more likely to buy something they feel familiar with than to try something new. Sometimes sequels are justified, when the original story had some unexplored areas in it which warrant further development. I agree with Steve, though, that this is rare, that most authors' motives are not so pure, and that Piers Anthony is one of the worst offenders. I also agree that Asimov's 6 volume (so far) Foundation Trilogy is one of the exceptions. John Oswalt amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 05:40:05 GMT From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes: >But, you assume that by tossing out some 'chaff', the artist can >continue to put out some 'wheat'... Can you *really* produce >garbage, and have it not affect your Art? Well, Robert Silverberg went through something like a hack period well before he wrote, for example, The Book of Skulls or Lord Valentine's Castle. One example doesn't refute a general rule unless you're insanely logical, of course. Of further interest: Silverberg has said that it was very difficult to write carefully and deliberately after his hack "training". Perhaps this example actually supports the position that it is at least dangerous to your art to resort to hackery to live -- perhaps writers should make their livings by means other than prostituting their main talent. David Dyer-Bennet Usenet: ...viper!ddb ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 18:03:06 GMT From: sunybcs!alin@rutgers.edu (Alin Sangeap) Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake jao@valid.UUCP (John Oswalt) writes: >> Why do authors feel a need to endlessly continue stories, in >> spite of the downward effect it has on the quality of the >> stories? >I can think of two reasons. The first is that it is easier to >write a sequel than it is to think up new characters and universes. >This is the author's fault. (then #2) > >Sometimes sequels are justified, when the original story had some >unexplored areas in it which warrent further development. Stories set in the present (that is, non-SF) usually have similar characters and universes, but aren't considered follow-ups. Novels often have built-in sequels: the second half is more of the same thing, without any change. The downward effect does not have to happen, unless the author stops thinking. In sf it generally is puniness of vision: just because the technology is fixed doesn't mean everything is unchanging (for one thing, there are fads to consider). Stories planned as a series are more uniform in quality (probably good). And the technology can vary more: different groups of the society (nations, maybe) can have different technologies and the access to technology can vary (with profession, for example), and writers can skip time in stories (so technology can develop). The last one is my favorite. Many great sequences of stories have been planned and writen on one subject as it develops over time. And some incredible ones develop the past and present as well (instead of just the future); the obligatory names: Simak, Douglas Adams, Gerard Klein. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 12:55:07 GMT From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake Kaufman asks an intriguing question: "Can you really produce garbage and not have it affect your art?" Well, garbage is a pretty strong word. But I do think it's possible to do both commercial writing and literature. In my own case, the commercial writing takes the form of magazine journalism and corporate work. Granted it's easier to keep that separate from my science fiction than it might be for someone who tries to write both commercial SF and literary SF. Another example: one of Canada's better known SF writers -- a person I consider an artist indeed -- writes trashy, commercial Romance novels under a pseudonym. Consider, also, the late James Blish, who used to knock off STAR TREK novelizations before breakfast, and who also wrote some truly great SF -- CITIES IN FLIGHT and, especially, A CASE OF CONSCIENCE. (Granted, he wrote his best SF before he started doing commercial work, so maybe he's not a great example). David Gerrold is another such case: most of what he does strikes me as calculatingly commercial (for instance, publishing the outline of one of his rejected STAR TREK stories in the book THE TROUBLE WITH TRIBBLES and then novelizing it under a misleading title that really has nothing to do with the book -- THE GALACTIC WHIRLPOOL -- to make readers think it's something they haven't read before) but, every once in a while, he'll come out with a true work of art, like YESTERDAY'S CHILDREN or THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF. Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Jan 87 0835-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #40 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 29 Jan 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 40 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Jan 87 07:55 EST From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION *****SPOILER****** Tucked away under a review of "Out on a limb" and a column about channel 60 becoming channel 50, is a less than 2' square article in Friday's Chicago Tribune entitled "New 'Star Trek' blasts off in April (byline Marilyn Beck) Hollywood-"Star Trek: The Next Generation" is set to blast into production in April--for debut as a syndicated TV show this fall. Casting has not been completed, but it's known that Leonard Nimoy, William Shatner and others from the original "Star Trek" WILL NOT BE MAKING GUEST APPEARANCES. Caps in last line mine. rich jervis c78kck@irismvs ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 87 11:48:22 GMT From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV; Constitution vs. Constellation class billp@elxsi.UUCP (Bill Petro) writes: >ihm@minnie.UUCP (Ian Merritt) writes: >>Not to stir up the dust again (though I am sure it will) the STIV >>book makes reference to the Constellation class when refering to >>the Enterprise II. > The Enterprise has always been called a Constitution class ship >in many previous sources, "The Making of Star Trek", "The Star Trek >Technical Manual", etc. Surely this conversation is at cross purposes here? STIV hasn't yet been released in the UK, and I haven't read the book, but nothing discussed on this subject seems to suggest (to me!) that Enterprise II *must* be the same class of ship as the original Enterprise. If I'm not making any sense to ST addicts here, I probably just don't have all the necessary information, so please keep the flames away from a poor ignorant enthusiast! ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 87 05:02:06 GMT From: oswego!kinne@rutgers.edu (Richard Kinne) Subject: Re: Star Trek Time-Line and Command Grades >sam@bu-cs.UUCP (Shelli Meyers) writes: >Yes, Kirk was a full Admiral. Note that his rank insignia was a >circle with 4 triangles (points, whatever-you-want-to-call-them) >coming out of the center. Note also that Commander, Star Fleet had >one with 5 of them. In all of the ST technical manuals I've leafed >through, I've seen that Rear-Admiral is the circle with 2 >triangles, Vice-Admiral is the circle with 3 triangles. For the >rank of Commodore I've seen a contradiction. I seem to remember in >one book, it was the circle with 1 triangle, and in another, it was >similar to the Captain insignia (from the movies) with 2 >additionial triangles coming off of the sides. > >In the first book, where the Commodore insignia was the circle and >one triangle, this was the insignia for Fleet Captain. In the book >with this as Commodore, there was no such rank as Fleet Captain at >the time the movies took place, but there was one before it. Any >ideas why? What ST technical manuals??? What books??? The only thing I've ever seen with pictures of rank insignia is the Star Fleet Technical Manual. From what books are you getting the new movie information???? Richard Kinne Instructional Computing Center SUNY College at Oswego Oswego NY 13126 (315)341-3055 {sunybcs|allegra!warrior|seismo!rochester!rocksvax}oswega!kinne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 87 16:50:51 PST From: stewart@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA Subject: STAR TREK IV I'm running a bit behind in my reading and someone may have made this suggestion already, but here's my two cents for what it's worth. People keep asking how Uhura could have heard the whale song through communications. I don't remember the details of the aquarium well, but weren't they broadcasting the whalesong over speakers at the exhibit? Could that somehow have been done using transmiter/receiver? At the very least the sound had to be converted to electrical energy to run the speakers. As to STIV being the greatest, I disagree. I much preferred STII, and even liked STI better in many ways. STIII I found rather cloying (and the new Saavik terribly disappointing). What I didn't like about STIV was the feeling of being right back at the beginning when we reached the end. Not only had they gotten rid of the possible new blood to carry on the story and let the plots expand beyond Kirk/Spock adventures in heroism, they managed to get rid of everyone but the bridge crew! Then we got back the old Enterprise. I think the show just went through a timewarp and they slipped back 20 years. I would really like to see the development of new characters, the shift of responsibility to younger shoulders, the inclusion of more pivotal female characters (the black woman captain was great, but the part a bit limited), and more exploration in new arenas--new races, new value systems, going ahead not back! P. K. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 87 15:50 CDT From: "FOREST::IWAMOTO%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: RE: Star Trek Time Travel Kurt Geisel states: >> There are two known methods of going into the past in Star Trek: >> The Guardian and the old Square-Dance-Around-A-Star method. >There is a third method, although I don't remember exactly what >they called it or which episode it was in, although I THINK it >might have been where some virus or something got on board which >was making everyone go crazy. They were in a decaying orbit and >someone had shut off the engines. Apparently, the engines need >about 30 minutes or so to start back up. They had less time than >that before they burned up so Spock tried an unproven theory to >cold start the antimatter reactor, which might result in implosion. >After they did, (and it worked of course) Sulu noticed the >chronometer running backwards. Kirk logged it as a good way to get >to other times... and Eleanor Evans said: >>When the Bounty came back to the future from the 20th century, for >>a few minutes, they were there before they had left. This could >>lead to interesting occurences, if explored further... >As I recall, there was one Star Trek episode in which the >Enterprise ended up going back in time three days. They were >trying to escape the gravitational pull of some planet (that, or >the planet was about to go boom, I forget which). Eventually, >Spock mixed matter and antimatter, and they ended up going back in >time. Does anyone recall this episode? Well, I think I've seen just about enough of this. Someone else may have brought this up earlier, but let's see if I can't put this to bed. There were 4 ways (out of the original TV series) that the Enterprise and/or her crew could travel in time. 1.) The time portal in the library of Mr. Atoz on Sarpeidon. From episode: All Our Yesterdays (Mariette Hartley was in this one) 2.) The time portal of the Guardian of Forever. From episode: The City on the Edge of Forever (with Joan Collins, of course) 3.) The slingshot effect (as demonstrated in STIV): From episode: Tomorrow is Yesterday 4.) Matter/antimatter cold-mix pull-out-of-a-decaying-orbit effect: From episode: The Naked Time. No. 4 is the episode being referred to in the above messages. If you want a full synopsis, e-mail me. Briefly, a water-borned virus spreads thru some of the Enterprise crew affecting Lt. Riley, who locks himself in Engineering. Riley shuts down the engines and the orbit of the Enterprise begins to decay around Psi 2000, a planet about to disintegrate. Matter and antimatter need about 30 minutes to "warm up" prior to being ready to use, but because of the urgency of the method, Scotty tries a "cold start". This causes the Enterprise and crew to enter a warp which takes them back 3 days, forcing them to live the last 3 days over again. This does bring up the interesting question of what happens when they again get to the point of having to start the engines again. Or is it not their destiny to have that happen? Or is it and are they really stuck in an infinite loop somewhere? Or has someone already discussed this on the net and I'm just making a fool of myself???... Warren M. Iwamoto iwamoto%forest@ti-eg.csnet ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 87 09:16:44 GMT From: jhunix!ins_ajpo@rutgers.edu (Milamber) Subject: Re: Star Trek Time-Line and Command Grades kinne@oswego.UUCP (Doc Kinne) writes: >What ST technical manuals??? What books??? The only thing I've >ever seen with pictures of rank insignia is the Star Fleet >Technical Manual. From what books are you getting the new movie >information???? Go to a Star Trek convention. They have a few books at the dealer tables with some of these pictures. Some of the books deal strictly with the uniforms, others are technical manuals. But like I said previously regarding the Commodore/Fleet Captain rank insignia for the movie period, I am unsure of the books in which I've seen those pictures. Joe Ogulin UUCP: {seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}!jhunix!ins_ajpo ARPA: ins_ajpo%jhunix@hopkins-eecs-bravo.ARPA BITNET: ins_ajpo@jhunix.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 87 11:09:57 EST From: Steepmt@apg-5 Subject: Star Trek IV - Whalesong Ed Lorden writes: >I just want to state that sound CANNOT travel through a vacuum. It >is impossible. Sound needs a medium of some sort to travel >through, water, or air. So you must conclude that the Whalesong >picked up by the Bounty, i.e. the Bird of Prey that the "valiant" >crew was in, was not transmitted as sound. Frankly, I don't care >how it was picked up. But, for this to be discussed, the laws of >science that we now accept must, in some way must be accounted for. As I remember, there was no mention that they were receiving the actual sounds of the whalesong. Spock stated something to the effect that the signals being received were that of a whalesong and radio waves travel very well in space. Besides, space is *not* a *vacuum*. There are a multitude of atoms in space. They are sufficiently separated that it is called a vacuum, but there has never been a total vacuum with nothing in it. Kurt Geisel writes: >There is a third method, although I don't remember exactly what >they called it or which episode it was in, although I THINK it >might have been where some virus or something got on board which >was making everyone go crazy. They were in a decaying orbit and >someone had shut off the engines. Apparently, the engines need >about 30 minutes or so to start back up. They had less time than >that before they burned up so Spock tried an unproven theory to >cold start the antimatter reactor, which might result in implosion. >After they did, (and it worked of course) Sulu noticed the >chronometer running backwards. Kirk logged it as a good way to get >to other times... I can't remember the name of the episode either, but this did occur. It is essentially the same as the *Dance around the Star*. Rather than using the gravitational field of a star, they were using the collapsing gravitational field of the planet for the same purpose. The theory is the same, but the actual object is different. William L. Johnson steepmt@apg-5.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 06:44:58 GMT From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET Subject: Re: STAR TREK IV stewart@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA says: >As to STIV being the greatest, I disagree. I much preferred STII, >and even liked STI better in many ways. STIII I found rather >cloying (and the new Saavik terribly disappointing). What I didn't >like about STIV was the feeling of being right back at the >beginning when we reached the end. Not only had they gotten rid of >the possible new blood to carry on the story and let the plots >expand beyond Kirk/Spock adventures in heroism, they managed to get >rid of everyone but the bridge crew! Then we got back the old >Enterprise. I think the show just went through a timewarp and they >slipped back 20 years. > I would really like to see the development of new characters, >the shift of responsibility to younger shoulders, the inclusion of >more pivotal female characters (the black woman captain was >great, but the part a bit limited), and more exploration in new >arenas--new races, new value systems, going ahead not back! This is the second or third article I've seen along these lines. It's interesting that people are complaining about STIV just taking us back to the old ST format (and thereby shutting off new directions) when it was these new directions that so many people disliked about STII and STIII! There must be a split somewhere between more conservative "purist" trekkers and the more liberal "experimentalist" trekkers. Personally, I'm sitting on the fence; I liked the new directions, but I'm also ready for some of the old, familiar Trek we all know and love. Remember that the old format doesn't necessarily mean no new ideas, and certainly won't exclude new characters. How about Gillian? She may figure prominently in upcoming movies. And Saavik certainly hasn't been written out yet (though I'd prefer to see Kirstie Alley come back to the role). The adventure is only beginning... P.S. I noticed that you preferred STI to STIV, yet it accomplished the same thing as the STII to IV trilogy-- brought back the old crew, zapped new characters, etc. What factors did you feel made it better? Not flaming, just interested in your feelings about it. James D. Maloy The Pennsylvania State University Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL UUCP : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 87 10:31 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Origin of "Saavik" Obviously, Saavik is a Vulcan who's had a sex change operation. Didn't you wonder why Kirk called her "Mister"? Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 87 10:34 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Added material in Star Trek movies Cc: David Platt I heard a report from Universe '87 that Gerrold admitted he had suggested to the TNG producers that they shoot a few minutes extra for the new episodes, edit them out for the tv showings, then back in for videotape release, thereby enticing folks to buy the video tapes. Cruel, huh? Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 87 11:27:53 cet From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: Emotional response to Star Trek Eleanor, I know what you are talking about. I haven't leaned so hard on ST in my own life in the way you describe, but I do draw comfort from the idea that perhaps one day we'll stop being a planet full of selfish brats and learn to get along. (IDIC comes in here, too...) I also think that your post to the digest is a wonderful rebuttal to what Kathy Godfrey said. Despite ST's technical flaws, the VISION of the future that it gives is one of the strongest reasons so many of us love it so much. George D. Madison ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 23:40:45 GMT From: ix241@sdcc6.ucsd.EDU (ix241) Subject: Re: Harmony Gold Tapes According to David Gerrold, Star Trek: The New Generation had been sold to 125 outlets as of Dec 1986. John Testa UCSD Chemistry sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Feb 87 0852-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #41 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 2 Feb 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 41 Today's Topics: Books - Duane (4 msgs) & Farmer & Harrison (5 msgs) & Kay & O'Donnell (2 msgs) & Thieve's World (2 msgs) & We Also Walk Dogs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 10:46:46 PST From: dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (Dave Platt) To: heuring%uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu@a.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: The next "Door" novel Well, it was promised for "late 1985", but that date has long gone. From what I've heard of Diane Duane, she has a lot of different irons in the fire (no pun intended)... the Door series, the Wizard stories, short stories, animation work (if she's still doing this), etc. and so on. I also have the impression that she really likes to "do it right", and isn't willing to hack out a novel just to meet a deadline. This is just fine by me... "The Door into Fire" blew me away when it came out back in '80 (I think it was?), and I found "The Door into Shadow" well worth the many-year wait. I don't mind waiting for the next novel (and the final one also) if they are of the same quality as the first two. I'll be quite interested to see whose viewpoints the next novels are told through. I half-expect at least one to be told from Freelorn's POV, and I'd enjoy at least a few chapters from Sunspark's. If you know anybody who's a CompuServe subscriber, you could implore them to sign on to the SF SIG and ask Duane when the next Door novel is due... she's the moderator! If you do this, and you find out, please post or email the information... I'd really like to know! Dave Platt dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 14:33:55 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) Subject: THE DOOR INTO SUNSET I don't know the publication date, but it is written. There's a really weird breakfast scene where they find out that Freelorn shaved his moustache the night before and (if I remember the dialogue): Segnbora: Something's wrong. Herewiss: Let me guess--he's pregnant. Segnbora: No, I am...What? I have a sneaking suspicion that it looks a lot better in the book. It was described to me at a Con in November by DED herself. (Actually, described to a room full of ppl, but that's beside the point.) The book after this will be THE DOOR INTO STARLIGHT, but that's all I know about it. I have a fairly extensive list of her books and stories, if anyone wants me to post it. st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 01:56:51 GMT From: randolph%cognito@Sun.COM (Randolph) Subject: Re: When will Diane Duane finish? heuring@CSRD.UIUC.EDU (Jerry Heuring) writes: >Does anyone know when (if?) the next book in Diane Duane's "Door" >series is going to be published? Unfortunately, the publisher of that series, Bluejay Books, has gone quietly out of business, their books have largely been picked up by Tor and St. Martins. Since the books are popular, the last two will probably be published, but when is anyone's guess. Randolph Fritz sun!rfritz rfritz!sun.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 87 21:40 EDT From: Andrew Sigel Subject: Re: Diane Duane heuring@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes: >Does anyone know when (if?) the next book in Diane Duane's "Door" >series is going to be published? I've read the first two books and >have been waiting for the next. I heard about a year ago that she was on the verge of signing a contract with Bluejay for the third book, but since Bluejay is now messily deceased, the status of the contract (if ever signed) is questionable. All that becomes moot when one realizes that Diane is currently story- editing a 65 episode syndicated cartoon series at the rate of five episodes per week, two of which she writes herself. I understand she also has a new Star Trek novel due soon. And, she is doing scripts for other animated television shows as well. One should also mentioned that she is recently engaged to be married, and planning on moving to Ireland in the not-too-distant future. So I have my doubts that we'll be seeing a new "Door" book before 1989, if that soon. (The third "Kit and Nita" book has been turned in, however, and will probably be out in about a year. The first, "So You Want to Be a Wizard", is just out in paperback from Dell Laurel Leaf (you may have to look for it in the Young Adult section), and I highly recommend it.) I'll see if I can find out more at Boskone. Andrew Sigel sigel@cs.umass.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 87 23:59:17 PST From: Bob Pratt Subject: Kilgore Trout and 'Venus on ...' Kilgore Trout was definitely Phillip Jose Farmer. I went to a speech he gave today @ Stanford, and someone asked him the story behind the Trout book. Here it is, as best as I can remember: He (Farmer) read and liked Vonnegut's books, quite a few of which mention a downtrodden sci-fi author named Kilgore Trout. He empathised with Trout, and decided it would be fun to actually write one of the Trout books that had been mentioned in passing by Vonnegut. So he took the cover blurb that Vonnegut described and wrote a book, which was published with the same back cover blurb. The photo used of the author was Farmer with a sliced up white wig as a beard. He described the look as that of a terrified Christ. Anyway, it had taken Farmer quite a while to persuade Vonnegut to go along with the idea, and a problem arose after publication. Many people assumed that Trout was Vonnegut, and sent him mail either praising or damning the book. Since Vonnegut hadn't written it, he was annoyed to get all that mail about it, so when Farmer asked for permission to write another Kilgore Trout book that Vonnegut had described, Vonnegut refused to let him. Farmer said that they feuded for a while as a result of this, but they finally agreed not to say nasty things about each other in public. Farmer also said that he thought Vonnegut had cheated on that agreement. Anyway, there's what I hope is an accurate version of Farmer describing how Venus on the Half Shell came to be written. And if you ever get a chance to have him tell the story in person, do so, because he makes it extremely amusing. Bob ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 17:43:59 GMT From: rtech!brent@rutgers.edu (Brent Williams) Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat GEISJBJ%UREGINA1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU says: > I have a question. Have there ever been any plans made to > make a "Stainless Steel Rat" Movie. Just recently, I found a book > which contained a collection of three of James Bolivar DeGriz's > best adventures, > The Stainless Steel Rat > The Revenge of the Stainless Steel Rat > and The Stainless Stell Rat Saves the World. A couple answers: 1.) I recall an article in Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine a few (<5) years ago interviewing Harry Harrison. The question about movie adaptations came up and basically the (he says, quoting from memory) the deal is that Harrison felt that the people who produced the movie _Soylent_Green_ from his story _Make_Room!_Make_Room!_ obtained the movie rights in a rather underhanded manner and in his opinion sleazed the story, changing its focus beyond what he intended. As a result, he pretty much nixed the ideas of selling movie rights to his other stuff. Should anyone dispute this interpretation of events, I'm sure the article appeared in Asimov's within the last 5 years, because that's the only SF magazine I have ever subscribed to or purchased. 2.) There was another short Stainless Steel Rat story published as the basis for a board game. Unfortunately, when I moved to Berkeley, I lost the game, so I can't provide you any more information on it. Hope the foregoing has been of some help. brent williams Relational Technology, Inc. 1080 Marina Village Parkway Alameda, CA 94501 {amdahl,sun,mtxinu,cpsc6a,hoptoad}!rtech!brent ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 21:59:32 GMT From: osu-eddie!chris@rutgers.edu (Chris Krieg) Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat GEISJBJ%UREGINA1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes: > I have a question. Have there ever been any plans made to >make a "Stainless Steel Rat" Movie. > > Anybody out there know of any other Stainless Steel Rat >stories that I haven't found yet? If so, please advise me, so that >I may make a point of searching for them. Thank You. I wish they would make a movie. I believe there is also a book titled "The Stainless Steel Rat Wants You" I Love the Rat books. Chris Krieg ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 02:53:46 GMT From: 6061204@PUCC.BITNET (Joseph Hong) Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat I can't imagine the spirit and fun of the stainless steel rat being transferred to the movie screen. Look at what they did to DUNE. It's rare for a faithful and well-done movie'tization to be done on a book. Joe Hong ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 14:50:13 GMT From: houxa!acd@rutgers.edu (A.DURSTON) Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat > 2.) There was another short Stainless Steel Rat story published >as the basis for a board game. Unfortunately, when I moved to >Berkeley, I lost the game, so I can't provide you any more >information on it. Before it became defunct and was sucked into the vortex that is TSR, SPI produced a fantasy magazine called Ares much like Strategy & Tactics. A bunch of articles, some fiction and a game. One issue had a game called The Stainless Steel Rat [ I think, my copy is buried in a box somewhere ] with accompanying short story. The premise of both is that a computer onboard a space station goes/or is programmed to go 'berserk' and Slippery Jim has to shut it down. In the story, he also finds out who 'fixed' the computer. If I get a chance, I'll dig it up and describe it in more detail. ACDurston ihnp4!{houxa,hotld,hotlg}!acd ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 87 05:14:36 GMT From: sdiris1!res@rutgers.edu (res) Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat There is another Stainless Steel Rat Book... "A Stainless Steel Rat Is Born" (or some words to that effect) The story of Slippery Jim's youth, and how he became a Rat, and his instructor in crime. (Plus a serious dig at McDonalds... heh) Skip ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 87 22:05:33 GMT From: watdcsu!mschuck@rutgers.edu ( SD) Subject: The Summer Tree Has the book _The_Summer_Tree_ by Guy Gavriel Kay been heard of out there? It is a Tolkien-esque fantasy which (in my opinion anyway) is one of the best fantasies ever written. The book is volume 1 of a 3 volume set called The Fionavar Tapestry, book 3 of which came out this month. The only question I have is whether anyone but me has heard of it? It was on the required reading for a course on Fantasy writing here at the University of Waterloo but beyond here and Toronto it seems unknown. (Actually, I'm sure that this is due largely to the fact that volume 1 was published by McLelland and Stewart and they didn't know how to market it since it wasn't Canadiana) In any case, this set is excellent and I highly recommend it to anyone. Mary Margaret Schuck ...!utai!watmath!watdcsu!mschuck ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 18:31:14 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) Subject: Re: F.B. Retzglaran >I haven't read yet. However a friend said that McGil changed a >little too much for her taste in the third. One of these days I'll >just have to read it and find out for myself. Hope that helps! I recently had an opportunity to talk at length with Kevin O'Donnell and he said that McGill is intended to change. O'Donnell has a definite end for the series (there will be 8 books in the series if I remember correctly) and McGill will change from a teenager into a mature man by the end. Danny Low ...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 05:33:59 GMT From: hoptoad!farren@rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: F.B. Retzglaran dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes: >I recently had an opportunity to talk at length with Kevin >O'Donnell and he said that McGill is intended to change. O'Donnell >has a definite end for the series (there will be 8 books in the >series if I remember correctly) and McGill will change from a >teenager into a mature man by the end. This rather directly contradicts what Kevin said at a recent meeting of The Elves, Gnomes and Little Men's Science Fiction Chowder and Marching Society (whew!) - I paraphrase (but closely) - "I'd be happy to write 10 or 12 more of them if they'll pay me for 'em!". Mike Farren hoptoad!farren ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 87 19:57:47 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Long series -- Thieve's World trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes: >Urg. Yes, Teckla is considerably different in tone from the first >two, and there is considerable (too much?) character development. >But, then, that was true about the 3rd Thieve's World book, the >4th+ Foundation book, [...] A common characteristic of all these is >that at or about the 5th book, no matter how much I liked the >series, the game got tiring. A comment for those of you who may have given up somewhere between the 3rd and 6th Thieve's World books (I certainly considered doing so): the series bottomed out at about book 5 or 6, and has since been getting better. In my opinion, the last couple of books are as good as the first one, if not better. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Ashton-Tate 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 00:46:22 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: Long series -- Thieve's World franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >A comment for those of you who may have given up somewhere between >the 3rd and 6th Thieve's World books (I certainly considered doing >so): the series bottomed out at about book 5 or 6, and has since >been getting better. In my opinion, the last couple of books are >as good as the first one, if not better. It seems to me that along about book 6 or 7, the stories got much darker, pessimistic, negative. By the time I reached book 8, it seemed almost overwhelmingly so (I'll make a point of relaunching myself into 8 and read 9 soon to check out your statement for myself). An interesting sidelight to my impression is that this is when the women became, by and large, the only authors contributing to the series. Anyone else notice this? Anybody agree with my sense of darkness about the series and have a theory about whether it relates to women writing it? Are these modern women of Fantasy stretching out into psychological areas most of the male writers are ignoring? What do female readers think about these questions of mine? (I'm male, by the way.) Kris Stephens 408-746-6047 amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 01:18:35 GMT From: mwilson@crash.CTS.COM (Marc Wilson) Subject: Re: "We Also Walk Dogs" WCCS.E-SIMON@KLA.WESLYN writes: >During the recent responses to the 'bad businessman' question, two >people (so far) have mentioned a story called "We Also Walk Dogs." > >I remember a story (author unknown) in which a company which will >do anything for you (such as walk your dog, throw a party, or I >think arrange for you to be in two places at the same time) is >contracted by the government to arrange a meeting of various alien >races. They solve the problem with some sort of gravity-simulator. This is a short story written by Robert Heinlein. You can find a copy of it in "The Green Hills of Earth," which I think is the collection you are referring to. Marc Wilson ARPA: ...!crash!mwilson@nosc ...!crash!pnet01!pro-sol!mwilson@nosc UUCP: [ akgua | hp-sdd!hplabs | sdcsvax | nosc ]!crash!mwilson mwilson@crash.CTS.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Feb 87 0905-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #42 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 2 Feb 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 42 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Teleportation (13 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Jan 87 02:24:36 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths In NECROMANCER by Gordon R. Dickson, members of the Chantry Guild use ``no-time'', which is based on exactly determining the velocity of the person or object to be teleported, which (by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle) then makes that person/object's position indeterminate, and thereby allows any destination to be chosen. (This went on to become the ``phase-shift'' drive used in the chronologically later stories of the Childe Cycle.) Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 781 6201 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 16:33:29 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Time travel and energy prob's cdaf@iuvax.UUCP (Charles Daffinger) writes: >From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >>One of the things that disturbs me about all the talk that has >>gone on about teleport/transfer booths is the blithe way people >>have been talking about throwing away energy. The First (and >>only) Commandment of the Universe is Thou Shalt Not Waste!! > >This leads me to a question of energy and time travel. Pardon my >naivete, but if you are traveling from one time to another, are you >not decreasing the energy and/or mass of the system you left >(defining the system as the universe at a given point in time) and >increasing that of the system you are entering? > >It seems to me to be a violation of the law of conservation of >energy. Well, this has nothing to do with the original post, but the popular answer is, No. Say you exit at time T and appear at time T'. The universe at T *will* have more energy/mass than that at time T+(delta T), but these are considered two different universes. Oh, yeah. Another thing: I wuz thinking about Niven's transporter. Nowhere in any of the books do I remember him saying that the transporter took any energy to run! I assume it does, but on the other hand, it doesn't change the amount of energy inherent in the object teleported (just changes it). Assuming its cost is low, how about this for a (relatively) perpetual machine: Go out in a hot climate, set up a dam. Put a transmitter at the base, a receiver at the top. The falling water runs a turbine, falls into the transmitter, goes to the top (much colder), and goes 'round again. You can skip off the ice cubes, and use them for cooling. Well, I've just invalidated Niven's pop phrase 'heat-death of the universe.' How about it? nike!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 15:36:10 PST (Monday) Subject: Re: Teleportation From: Josh Susser I just read Roger Zelazny's "Creatures of Light and Darkness." One character in the story, the Prince Who Was A Thousand, has a unique ability to teleport. He just thinks of a place and *zap* he's there. What makes his talent so useful, though, is that since the universe is infinite, he can go to any place he can IMAGINE. Zelazny gets typically philosophical over whether the Prince is creating or discovering these new worlds, much like the arguments the Amberites used in discussing shadow worlds, but at any rate, this is a terrifyingly powerful ability. Josh ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 19:31:06 GMT From: bellcore!purtill@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes: > As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport > methods that have been used in SF stories. All I can think of at > the moment are: > 1.Transfer-of-information > 2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying > 3.Transport through hyperspace > 4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's > "Null-A" series. Any others? Maybe this is the same as #4, but in "The Lion Game" by James Schmitz, they have "portals" which are basically (paraphrased) "squeezing two distant points of space into one." (i.e., a space warp.) I'm sure I've seen this sort of idea elsewhere as well. mark purtill 435 south st morristown nj 07960 Arpa: purtill@bellcore.com Uucp: {allegra | ihnp4}!bellcore!purtill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 87 16:32:00 EST From: Ron_Frederick%itsmts@CSV.RPI.EDU Subject: "Jaunting" Speaking of "jaunting", I seem to remember a show which aired on Nickelodeon a few years ago which involved teleportation through hyperspace, and I think that it used the term "jaunting." I believe the title was "The Tomorrow People." From what I remember of it, some of the characters were the next stage in the evolution of human beings, and they possessed various psionic abilities. One of these involved the ability to travel short distances in hyperspace. They could not actually travel very far, and they had to know where they were going. They got around this however by using a "biological computer", which they could communicate with telepathically, and "jaunting belts" which allowed the computer to set the coordinates for them for longer jumps. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 28 Jan 87 15:02:13-EST From: eric(wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@weslyan.bitnet) Subject: Teleportation Schemes Not mentioned yet is the scheme used by F. Pohl in "Black Star Rising" (a book which I quickly bought at PhilCon so that he might sign it). It involves transporting whole ships (and crews) between universes using some sort of transporter ship. (details escape me). The transporter ship had to have been placed at its location by manual travel. (no ship = no travel). ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 19:48:05 GMT From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes: >As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport >methods that have been used in SF stories. All I can think of at >the moment are: > 1.Transfer-of-information > 2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying > 3.Transport through hyperspace > 4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's >"Null-A" series. Any others? Well, there are various stories where teleportation via unexplained mental powers happens. How about "The Stars My Destination" by Alfred Bester. Then there are all the ones with mechanical teleporation where no explanation is proveded. A favorite from my childhood is "The Forgotton Door". What technology did R.A.H. use in his juvenile SF? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 18:00:53 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1) From: Derrick Subject: Re: transportation twomey@sunybcs.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes: > I'm not sure how Niven's scheme works, and this may be it, I have > certainly seen it used in some other stories, but this is food for > thought. Teleportation involves recording the position of every > atom/molecule in the teleportee's body, and then transmitting this > info to the destination where the receiver gloms together assorted > atoms according to the re- cording. It certainly is food for thought. Has it occured to anyone that anybody who steps into one of those things will be instantly disintegrated? Now, the person who steps out at the other end will have all the personality of the original, all the memories, all the thoughts, feelings and opinions of the original, but the actual person who stepped in would be absolutely and completely DEAD! The replica of the original, the person who steps out of the transporter at the destination, will only live for as long as he can stay out of a transporter. Before you all tell me anyway, I'd better add that I am perfectly aware that this question has been raised before. In fact, the idea was used to provide the entire plot for James Blish's excellent Star Trek novel "Spock Must Die!" (the first ST novel ever, folks!) The story begins with McCoy complaining about this very point. He worries that he has no way of knowing whether "The Real McCoy" :-) died when he first walked into a transporter beam, and what has happened to his immortal soul. Scotty is worried by this argument so he goes away and invents a whole new system of transportation technology to solve it. Instead of destroying the original being, why not create a replica of him in tachyons, send *this* off (at considerably FTL speeds) to wherever it has to go, and report back with whatever information they require to solve the problem that has arisen. The duplicate is then destroyed when the field is switched off. The new transporter system is a vast improvement on the current system, as it operates over light years instead of just 16,000 miles, and takes the replica to wherever far faster than the Enterprise can manage. The only disadvantage is that the original doesn't actually go anywhere. When Scotty reports this invention to Kirk, he is very impressed, but suggests to Scotty that he not mention it to McCoy, as *he* would probably ask him whether the replica had an immortal soul! Comments, please. Derrick ENU1475%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@ucl-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 17:33:00 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1) From: Derrick Subject: Jaunting. The method of transportation used by the Tomorrow People (British SF tv-series mentioned during last year's SF on TV debate) was referred to as "Jaunting". I cannot remember how the process was initiated, but I remember the transportation effect was a transparent giant hand would wrap itself around the transported person, who would then vanish. Does anyone else have any further details? I do not remember the "Jaunting" being mentioned in the discussion at all. Derrick ENU1475%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@ucl-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 87 02:42:26 GMT From: harlie!carl@rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: Teleportation and energy probs kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman): > how about this for a (relatively) perpetual machine: Go out in a > hot climate, set up a dam. Put a transmitter at the base, a > receiver at the top. The falling water runs a turbine, falls into > the transmitter, goes to the top (much colder), and goes 'round > again. You can skip off the ice cubes, and use them for cooling. > Well, I've just invalidated Niven's pop phrase 'heat-death of the > universe.' Niven proposed this in All The Myriad Ways: The Theory and Practice of Teleportation. Part V. You're dropping a ton of iron filings through open teleport booths. System is enclosed in a vacuum. The stuff doesn't freeze, and after nineteen minutes of operation you have a black stream at near absolute zero moving at seven miles per second. You could do this forever. You have to put it at one of the Poles to avoid the stream bending away from the transmitter door as the Earth turns. (BOOM!) In a month you have double the mass. In two, quadruple. If you run the system long enough, the filings weigh like a star. Nasty, eh? (What happens when the filings mass so much they don't fall, but the Earth falls towards them? When they stop falling, won't they revert to their original mass or something? I don't know, I haven't taken Physics yet...) Carl Greenberg {qantel,ihnp4,lll-crg}!ptsfa!harlie!carl ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 87 15:47:46 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Teleportation and energy probs carl@harlie.UUCP (Carl Greenberg) writes: >Niven proposed this in All The Myriad Ways: The Theory and Practice >of Teleportation. Part V. You're dropping a ton of iron filings >through open teleport booths. System is enclosed in a vacuum. The >stuff doesn't freeze, and after nineteen minutes of operation you >have a black stream at near absolute zero moving at seven miles per >second. You could do this forever. You have to put it at one of >the Poles to avoid the stream bending away from the transmitter >door as the Earth turns. (BOOM!) In a month you have double the >mass. In two, quadruple. If you run the system long enough, the >filings weigh like a star. Nasty, eh? (What happens when the >filings mass so much they don't fall, but the Earth falls towards >them? When they stop falling, won't they revert to their original >mass or something? I don't know, I haven't taken Physics yet...) Well, I *have* taken physics, but we skipped over 'teleportation'. ;-) What'll happen is one of the following: 1) The filings freeze so much that it cools the air in the tube to the freezing point; filings stop; end of story. What? The tube is *evacuated*? Oh. Well, 2) The filing wheigh so much (e.g., has such a high gravity) that the tube collapses; end of story. And, no, the filings won't revert to normal mass: they may not be moving in *some* frame of reference, but they are in *ours* (or, we are in its-- whichever). It *does*, after all, keep its velocity. Oh, and the Earth won't last long enough for us to worry about it, anyway. OK, I admit it: I read the essay, as well as one of his stories (? title?) where the use a teleporter to get water to the Sahara, and kinda swiped But, it can work, right? I mean, the water's getting frozen so fast, it never reaches relativistic speeds. (BTW, I said 'relatively perpetual', not *'relativistically'* ! ;-) lll-crg!ames-titan!ames!orion!kaufman kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.GOV ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 08:14:05 GMT From: victoro@crash.CTS.COM (Dr. Snuggles) Subject: Re: "Jaunting" From: Ron_Frederick%itsmts@CSV.RPI.EDU >Speaking of "jaunting", I seem to remember a show which aired on >Nickelodeon a few years ago which involved teleportation through >hyperspace, and I think that it used the term "jaunting." I believe >the title was "The Tomorrow People." > >From what I remember of it, some of the characters were the next >stage in the evolution of human beings, and they possessed various >psionic abilities. One of these involved the ability to travel >short distances in hyperspace. They could not actually travel very >far, and they had to know where they were going. They got around >this however by using a "biological computer", which they could >communicate with telepathically, and "jaunting belts" which allowed >the computer to set the coordinates for them for longer jumps. Yes, what you say is correct. The first episodes covered the people discovering their powers and then discovering that they were part of a galactic federation. This federation (Would you "Blake's 7" people please calm down!) provided the organic computer (which changed from season to season) to extend their jaunting distances to intersteller distances. Victor O'Rear {hplabs!hp-sdd,akgua,sdcsvax,nosc}!crash!victoro crash!victoro@nosc ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 22:48:56 GMT From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths Someone wanted to know what technology RAH used in his juvenile SF for teleportation. The only juvenile I can think of where he used teleportation is _Tunnel in the Sky_. This appears to be a dirigible space warp--warp technicians have to compensate for planetary motion and rotation speeds (and presumably potential energy changes). Takes lots of energy (I think he was using thorium?? It's been a long time). david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Feb 87 0914-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #43 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 2 Feb 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 43 Today's Topics: Television - Japanese Animation (6 msgs) & Blake's 7 (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 87 05:29 EST From: Jay Hindle Subject: Robotech and Stuff... Hi there! With all this interest going around for Robotech, has anyone ever seen the original Japanese shows? (Macross, Southern Cross, Mospedea) I myself have only seen a couple of episodes of Macross, But one I did see was 'First Contact', which also happens to be Minmay's (yes, this is how the Japanese spelled her name, pretty western eh?) Singing debut. Now I know many of you Robotech fans are getting sick right now, but in the Original, she was an EXCELLENT singer. In fact, I've got Macross the Movie (Japanese Movie adaptation of the series with a few weird twists) and her songs in there are so good I've taped them onto cassettes and listen to them on my walkman! Getting off of Minmay's singing, for all you Japanimation fans in the New York City area, on March 20-22, LUNACON '87 will be going on at the Westchester Marriot Hotel, in Tarrytown New York. Since LUNACON '83 They have had a Star Blazers Video Room, where they show 3 days worth of Japanimation usually in Japanese with translation on the spot, or subtitles, or the occasional english. Jay Hindle ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 87 04:50:51 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Re: Questions about Robotech > It would be interesting to find out what the original 3 > stories were about. It has been hinted that Protoculture was > something other than an energy source prior to Macek. In the > Robotech version, Protoculture is a sort of panacea. It is an > energy source for all Robotech Master and Zentraedi spaceships and > vehicles, it helps in the cloning process and likely helps in > growing food. In the original story line (and the Macross Movie in particular), Protoculture was the original culture of the Zentraedi and was much more human-like than their adopted culture. For instance, men and women were together, love was an accepted part of life, etc. That's all. It certainly wasn't a FUEL! In Mospaeda, there was a super fuel called "HBT". *This* was the fuel they were running out of in the original. (Have you Robotech fans ever wondered why nobody ever runs out of "Protoculture" in the Rick Hunter (Macross) episodes, but *everybody* seems to be running out of it in the Mospoeda section of the show? Now you know! There were never any fuel worries in Macross, but there were alot of fuel shortages in Mospaeda. Remember, these are UNRELATED shows). Also, I mentioned a Macek plot change that someone wanted me to clear up. There was an alien who fell in love with a human. I can't remember his Robotech name. He ended up causing an alien ship to crash (after jettisoning his human girlfriend) and nobly gave up his life to save the earth (there was alot of classic Japanese drama here with the conflicting loyalties theme) from an alien invasion. After the ship crashes, there are alot of flowers that go floating away from the crash. This was dramatic and effective in the original...but in Robotech, Macek has the voiceover come in with, "But his sacrifice was in vain because he only managed to spread the protoculture spores all over the surface of the planet." (I paraphrased) Thus attracting the Invid (or whoever) to Earth in greater numbers since they could detect "Protoculture" over inter-stellar distances. Yuck. Ken Zarifes {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 13:45:38 PST (Wednesday) From: pmacay.PA@Xerox.COM Subject: Japanese and other Animation on Video On this list, I have constantly seen discussions on Japanese Animation and how wonderful it is. Well if you are interested, I picked up an eight page newsletter called: Animation News, "All the news that's fit to animate" Volume 1, Issue 1 P.O. Box 25547 LA, Ca 90025 And in it they have a large section on animation titles on Video that you can purchase from: Expanded Entertainment P.O. Box 25547 LA, Ca 90025 They list 'Warriors of the Wind', 95 minutes, 1985. They will be delivered UPS. I don't know if this film is easily attainable or not, or at a better price, I just thought some of you may be interested. Said of the original Japanese version of the movie, "If you only watch one animation movie, this should be the one. It is a breathtakingly beautiful masterwork created by a genius working at the peak of his powers. Aided by an exceptional soundtrack, Miyazaki Hayao has produced what is undoubtedly one of the greatest animated films of all time. Don't miss it! I don't know if this is true or not, I've never seen the film. The newsletter did have some interesting articles. I picked this up for free at a local filmhouse that shows artsy films, (The New Varsity in Palo Alto for local folks!). There is no price, free or otherwise, listed on the paper. Gee, I hope it was free, I wondered why the girl at the candy counter was running after me screaming obscenities. I just thought it was my new haircut!?! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 13:18 EDT From: DANDOM@UMass.BITNET Subject: Bad translations... Speaking of VERY bad translations of Japanese animation, I am surprised that no one has yet mentioned the GRANDADDY of bad translations: Captain Harlock/Queen of 1000 years. Harmony Gold, in their INFINITE wisdom decided to once again link two series together, in an attempt to fill out the number of episodes. Now think about this. The main reason for all of this continuity-slashing is so that a series like Captain Harlock, which had only 42(?) episodes could fulfill the standard requirement of 65 episodes for syndication. Forget aesthetics, or paying attention to a creator's vision. In the case of Harlock, well, the series as it happens DOES connect to Queen of 1000 years. It takes place 1000 years AFTER. Leiji Matsumoto has a continuity among his creations that doesn't always make sense, but is at least there. There is a theme running throughout his series' of corruption through immortality. That theme shows up acutely in the Galaxy Express series (which Harmony Gold has an opion on..) Oh, and if you're an Urusei Yatsura fan, guess what harmony Gold ALSO has an option on? Yup. I have this vision that Lum's Electrical powers will be explained as 'Protoculture Beams' or some such nonsense. I don't see the series as being viable for an American Market, since a lot of episodes are rooted in the Japanese Mythology traditions (I am told that fanged and tiger- striped demons show up in tha mythology, anyone know about this?). As someone mentioned, Warriors of the Wind had some problems, and if they get their hands in Laputa, well...my biggest fear is that they will get their mitts onto Lupin the Third: Cagliostro Castle which is also a film by Shun Miyazaki, of Nausicaa/Laputa fame, and is also my single favorite Anime film. The BEST translation of a Japanese film I have seen was a translation of the first Lupin III film, entitled Lupin III aka The Mystery of Mamo. One reason that this translation works so well, is that it was done by a Japanese company for a hotel or airline (I don't know the precise details). The voices were splendid, especially the one for Lupin himself, which was uncannily similar to his Japanese counterpart. Just as a final aside, I cannot recommend the Lupin III series more highly for American audiences. It is a fast, hilarious, exciting and intriguing series of adventures. Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 08:05:57 GMT From: victoro@crash.CTS.COM (Dr. Snuggles) Subject: Re: Japanese and other Animation on Video pmacay.PA@Xerox.COM writes: >Said of the original Japanese version of the movie, "If you only >watch one animation movie, this should be the one. It is a >breathtakingly beautiful masterwork created by a genius working at >the peak of his powers. Aided by an exceptional soundtrack, >Miyazaki Hayao has produced what is undoubtedly one of the greatest >animated films of all time. I saw the film originally as Nassica at the local C/FO meeting and had the great fortune of seeing/hearing it with a stereo system and we were able to get a distribution amp and five headphones and the front row listened in FULL stereo! WOW! I then purchased the tape at my local B. Dalton store (Warehouse also had it, but I get a discount at B. Dalton) because I wanted a very good copy of the visulas and the soundtrack (maybe). I wasn't displeased. It wasn't the original, but it wasn't Battle of the Planets either. Victor O'Rear {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro crash!victoro@nosc ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 14:39:39 GMT From: aplvax!mae@rutgers.edu (Mary Anne Espenshade) Subject: Re: Questions about Robotech jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes: > It would be interesting to find out what the original 3 stories > were about. It has been hinted that Protoculture was something > other than an energy source prior to Macek. In the Robotech > version, Protoculture is a sort of panacea. It is an energy > source for all Robotech Master and Zentraedi spaceships and > vehicles, it helps in the cloning process and likely helps in > growing food. Macek invented Protoculture as an all purpose buzz-word/way to tie the unrelated original stories together. The word itself was used once in one episode of Macross. When the Zentraedi leader is briefed on what has been learned of the Earth's society, he refers to it as a proto-culture, as in the dictionary definition for the prefix "proto": beginning or giving rise to. Macek must have liked the word (and not had access to a dictionary :-) ) so he made it refer to a mysterious "something" that the humans had and everyone else wanted. In Robotech it is an energy source used in factories, to power space ships and for cloning, but it also grows on farms and can mutate into a flower - it doesn't make any sense because Macek insisted on using the same word for something in each part of Robotech. So both starship engines and the Zentraedi cloning chambers in Macross were renamed "Protoculture factories", the alien flowers in Southern Cross become "Protoculture farms" and the fuel canisters in Mospeada become "Protoculture cells". > Anyway, the SDF-1 was a lost spaceship which crashed on the > Earth. It's origins are also unclear. On the one hand, it seems > to be a Zentraedi ship, but the design is unlike any other > Zentraedi ship. In the Robotech world (as opposed to the Macross > world) it might be that the SDF-1 was an old ship from the days > when the Robotech Masters ruled the Zentraedi. In the Macross word, the Zentraedi were at war with another race the same size they were. The SDF-1 was an enemy ship, it fires on the Zentraedi because it has detected them as the enemy. Mary Anne Espenshade {allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplcen!aplvax!mae mae@aplvax.jhuapl.edu mae@aplvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 87 15:48:59 GMT From: mhuxh!stu4@rutgers.edu (Stephen Westphal) Subject: Blake's 7 This is my first posting to the net, I think it's really neat. Some of the cable stations in my area have started showing Blake's 7 and I really like it. I was at a convention a couple of weeks ago and picked up a really neat fanzine on the show- it had an interview with Michael Keating, and pictures and artwork and songs and poems- the next one is supposedly on Paul Darrow. It also had an episode guide to the first season; the second season will be in the Paul Darrow issue. It's fine and all, but there was nothing else on the show as far as books and stuff. Aren't there any books or other stuff from the show available? There is for other shows like Doctor Who; maybe I am not looking in the right place. Also, does any one know of any Blake's 7 clubs. I'm looking for one in New Jersey, but a large regional or national club would be better than nothing, I guess. Thank you, Steven Westphal P.S. If anyone else is interested in the fanzine I got, the address is: Freedom City Gazzette 10 Hall Ct. Park Ridge, NJ 07656 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 87 12:47:55 GMT From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Blake's Seven I have seen here in Toronto, Canada, a mini Corgi toy of the spaceship for Blake's 7. It's about three or four inches long, metalic blue with yellow plastic trim. No where on the packaging is Blake's 7 mentioned (it came on a blister pack card, but persumably they only package it this way for export to countries where Blake's 7 is not being shown). The only clue to its pedigree is that on the card, partly obscured by the toy itself, are the words "Copyright Terry Nation." It must have been four years ago that I bought mine. It was dirt cheap (around two bucks, I think), but, then, it is quite small. Robert J. Sawyer c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 19:48:32 GMT From: hrcca!jean@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Blake's 7 stu4@mhuxh.UUCP (Stephen Westphal) writes: > Aren't there any books or other stuff from the show available? > There is for other shows like Doctor Who; maybe I am not looking > in the right place. Also, does any one know of any Blake's 7 > clubs. I'm looking for one in New Jersey, but a large regional or > national club would be better than nothing, I guess. A source for books (including the B7 program guide) is Bundles From Britain Box 34112 Chicago, IL 60634 I've ordered from them without any problem. The only B7 book they seem to have is "Afterlife", a post-Blake novel that manages to be boring and stupid. You can read better stuff in the fanzines. As a matter of fact, you can probably *write* better stuff yourself! :-) There were originally three other books published which were adaptations from the series (in the first one Avon was described as an Albino!). I got copies at some SF/Media cons but I haven't seen them arond generally. I don't know of any B7 clubs that are active locally in NJ -- however, some of the DW clubs are expanding to include B7 activity as well. If you're interested in the combined interest I can let you know who they are. It should be interesting to see how they succeed. When both shows were on the air in Britain there were some overlapping fans, but there were also a lot of very vocal "my show alone!" on either side. I gather that the DW "only" folks were calling B7 depressing (among other things) and B7 "only" folks were saying that DW was incredibly childish! One thing -- when the BBC put the finale to B7 it was getting higher ratings than DW has been for the last two seasons (sigh). Incidently, SCORPIO, the B7 convention will be running again in Chicago this year -- the first weekend in August. If anyone's interest I can get info on it. No matter *who* the guests are there is some marvelous material in the dealer's room and the art show. "Starlog" had an interview with Gareth Thomas in #114 (January), Paul Darrow will be in #116 and plans are for Terry Nation (on the continuation of the series regardless of what the BBC wants) in #117, Michael Keating in #118 and Jacqueline Pearce in #119. At the rate they're going, maybe there will be a special B7 issue! Jean Airey US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Feb 87 0933-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #44 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 2 Feb 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 44 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Businessmen in SF (3 msgs) & Models & Award Winners (4 msgs) & Noreascon & Boskone Request & Polly Freas (3 msgs) & Quote Source & Attitudes Concerning SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Jan 87 20:17:06 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB) Subject: Re: Businessmen (growth) randolph@sun.UUCP (Randolph) writes: >SF stories generally celebrate the growing phases of business, >rather than the mature phases. [...] > >Generally, I think, SF's picture of business focuses on young >businesses. The founder of a business empire can be heroic; the >people who manage the economic empires the founders leave behind >seldom are. I can't think of any serious SF story that takes an >investment manager as a hero, though I can recall a few satires. > >Businessmen I recall from mundane fiction generally fall into three >categories: the small businessman (whose business isn't generally >central to the story at hand), the investment manager (whose life >is usually portrayed as sterile), and 19th century robber-baron >capitalists (usually SOB's, sometimes held up as bad examples). You might try James Clavell's "Noble House" as an example of a positive (or at least not outright negative) portrayal of business managers. Also, Poul Anderson's Nickolas van Rijn although he is more of a Robber Baron. But it's a positive portrayal of a Robber Baron. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 03:48:24 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Businessmen (growth) randolph%cognito@Sun.COM (Randolph) writes: >SF stories generally celebrate the growing phases of business, >rather than the mature phases. Heinlein's businessmen are usually >founders: D.D. Harriman, Lazarus Long (who founded many of them) >and the H-U-R-R-Y-U-P people (of "We Also Walk Dogs"). So are E.E. >Smith's, Niven & Pournelle's, and David Palmer's. E.E. Smith's books may celebrate business, but he made distinctions based on the people running them as well. Admittedly Dick Seaton's (SKYLARK) business was shown in a good light... but let us not forget DuQuesne (SKYLARK) also had a business, as did the later Isaacson (LENSMAN), and neither was particularly a shining gem... In each case the distinction rested on the person in charge: in particular, his ways of doing things. As far as Heinlein goes, he was in favor of the independent business, and showed in a good light some larger businesses; but remember the ``bad guys'' of LIFE-LINE and how *they* did business... Heinlein's distinction seemed to be more along the lines of the self-centered vs. those who had some idea of public-mindedness. D. D. Harriman, cornered, pointed out that his move to get to the Moon was not only for himself but also to avoid a situation where the Moon became a military installation ready to drop bombs on anyone on the Earth -- may I note that we're pretty close to that situation right now; I wonder how (i.e. in what ways) we would be worried about nuclear Armageddon if we had used the Harriman method to get into space? On the other hand, Bidwell (LIFE-LINE) found the hiring of assasins an acceptable way to deal with competition not opposable via the courts. Between them, they seem to have captured a large part of reality, if in an exaggerated manner (I hope!). Or so it seems to me, from my (admittedly) somewhat insulated position with respect to large businesses, and my small but growing experience with the garage-workshop (or should I say, bedroom- computer-lab) variety and its corresponding biasing. (Take that as a disclaimer if you wish.) Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 781 6201 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 87 11:42:58 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Image of businessmen in SF > From: bnl!stern (Eric G. Stern) > I don't know if these count as pro-business, but there were the > Chap Fooey Rider short stories by some author whose name I never > knew. Forgot, maybe, but never knew? Did you read them someplace that never mentioned the author's name? Anyways, it was Hayford Peirce. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 87 23:44 ??? From: KGEISEL%CGIVC%cgi.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: Thunderbirds Models I am pretty sure Dinky Toys is ancient history. They made such things as the Thunderbirds toys and Star Trek ships (complete with actual firing disks). They also had a great fully functional Astin Martin DB5 from Gold Finger. (Yes, the ejection seat worked...) Alas, those good die cast toys are no more. We are stuck with plastic Rambo guns and He-man slime pits... In any case, Cosmic Connection has a limited supply remaining of original Thunderbirds plastic models. Yes, these are orignial series, not 2086. They are not the usual unbelievable Japanese model quality, but they are still better than most Revell etc. There is a very limited supply. I have TB1 and TB4 (main rocket and sub) from them. The mole-digger was either completely gone or near so. There is one other vehicle, but I don't remember what it is! If you want any Thunderbirds, I advise getting them FAST. Japanimation lovers take note! Cosmic Connection is an excellent source. They a complete line of models from nearly every show I've heard of, plus several BEAUTIFUL photo/art books. (Yes, robotech included.) A note about Japanese models: If you are a builder, you'll love them; if you want to be, it is easier to start on them; and if you aren't, the box art is worth the price alone! You can learn a lot about the multitude of shows available in Japan just by looking through their nicely done catalog. It has lots of pictures and a plot summary behind each line of models. Cosmic Connection 426 Moody Street Waltham, MA 02154 Send $1 for catalog. Kurt Geisel ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 87 00:01:42 GMT From: mit-caf!jarvis@rutgers.edu (Jarvis Jacobs) Subject: HUGO & NEBULA-winning novels? Where can I find a listing of all the HUGO, NEBULA, and/or JOHN W. CAMPBELL MEMORIAL award-winning novels? Thank you jarvis@caf.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 12:19:47 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Hugo winners information jarvis@mit-caf.UUCP (Jarvis Jacobs) writes: >Where can I find a listing of all the HUGO, NEBULA, and/or JOHN W. >CAMPBELL MEMORIAL award-winning novels? In addition to Chuq's reference to Nicholls, I'd suggest you look in the Asimov-edited HUGO WINNERS series from Doubleday. The last time I looked, this was up to 4 volumes containing all of the less-than-novel-length winners and listing the novel winners; there's enough material that a new volume now comes out every ~3 years, and it's the sort of book that I've noticed many libraries getting (although it's usually circulating, where Nicholls is probably on reserve in any mundane libraryu that has it). There is book of Nebula winners and runners-up published each year; it's always titled NEBULA AWARD WINNERS but is edited by a different author each year. Some time ago, Howard DeVore published a listing of all winners of the Hugo, Nebula, and International Fantasy (now defunct) Awards; I remember seeing a late-70's or early-80's edition in the MITSFS (where you might find Boyajian's sometime partner, Ken Johnson, to tell you more than you ever wanted to know) but don't know whether DeVore has done anything more recent. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 87 17:27:51 GMT From: druhi!holder@rutgers.edu (HolderML) Subject: Re: HUGO & NEBULA award winners Some previous article mentioned Howard DeVore's list of HUGO and NEBULA winners. I dug up my old (1978) copy and here's the poop: A History of the Hugo, Nebula, and International Fantasy Awards by Donald Franson and Howard DeVore. Published by Howard Devore, 4705 Weddel St. Dearborn, Mich. 48125 Not only does it list the winners for all of the awards, but it lists the finalists and even most of the earlier ballots. I assume Franson and DeVore are still updating the list. I saw several other editions, but I haven't seen any mention of any edition after around 1982. Mike Holder AT&T-IS Denver, CO ihnp4!druhi!holder ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 87 16:12:50 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: HUGO & NEBULA-winning novels > From: mit-caf!jarvis > Where can I find a listing of all the HUGO, NEBULA, and/or JOHN W. > CAMPBELL MEMORIAL award-winning novels? Since you're located at M.I.T., I suggest that you visit the M.I.T Science Fiction Society Library. They should have a copy of Howard DeVore and Donald Franson's HISTORY OF THE HUGO, NEBULA, AND INTERNATIONAL FANTASY AWARD, LISTING NOMINEES AND WINNERS (Misfit Press). The only question will be how recent an edition MITSFS has. Misfit Press updates it regularly, but I don't off-hand know if they do so annually, biannually, or otherwise. The most recent edition I have myself is about 7 years out of date. To bring yourself up to date, you could also check out MITSFS' files of LOCUS or SCIENCE FICTION CHRONICLE, which always report the list of nominees when they are announced, as well as, of course, the winners, after the awards are presented. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 12:42:14 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Noreascon via e-mail From: Bob Pratt >I know it isn't 'til 1989, but I was wondering if [Noreascon] had >an e-mail address. OK, pretty random question, but their mailing >address is at MIT, and MIT does have a few computers. The MIT address is a convenience; we had a PO box in Boston until it was decided that the hassle of getting to it was worse than the apparent anomaly of "Boston in 1980" (\sic/---it goes back to our previous bid) having a non-Boston address. (There's nobody left on the committee who still works at MIT, though many of us came from there and some of us still work in the neighborhood.) A great many of the committee are on the net one way or another; I know I'm not the only committee member reading SFL although none of the others participates regularly any more. The committee itself does not have an e-mail address---yet. We're looking at setting up a committee-business bboard on the machine we bought for registration, and if that happens we're likely to make the machine accessible to the outside world in some fashion (if only to allow committee to dial in and read mail from offsite). Vague noises have been made about getting a Compuserve ]mailbox[ but so far nothing seems likely to come of it. IF we do get a public mailbox the word will be spread as widely as possible. Chip Hitchcock ARPA: CJH@CCA.CCA.COM uu: ...!{decvax!linus, seismo!harvard, cbosgd, caip!think}!cca!cjh PS: It really is spelled Noreascon, not NorEasCon---but the PO seems able to get mail to us either way.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 14:15:17 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) Subject: Boskone How about some general Boskone information, please? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 87 20:48:32 PST From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Polly Freas I was just informed that Polly Freas died of a re-occurance of her cancer. I don't have any other details than this, but it means that we've lost another of the people who helped make SF what it is today. When I find out information about services and cards I'll let you know. chuq ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 87 22:57:36 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Polly Freas information Here is the latest on Polly Freas, courtesy of Laura LeHew at Plus5. Due to the overwhelming hospital costs, etc. a fund has been set up to help Kelly. Contributions should be sent to: Butch Allen c/o HAROSFA P. O. Box 9434 Hampton, VA 2367 The funeral was/is January 28, and there will be a memorial service on the 29th. If you want to send cards to Kelly, I'd suggest sending them in care of Donning/Starblaze. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 05:33:45 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Polly Freas Contributions toward Freas' rather staggering medical bills can be made through HaRoSFA PO Box 9434 Hampton, VA 23670 There will also be benefit auctions at Capricon in Chicago and at Boskone. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 06:30:48 GMT From: uhccux!todd@rutgers.edu (The Perplexed Wiz) Subject: source of Clarke quote??? I'm giving a lecture on technology in the professions in March and the second sentence I plan to utter is Clarke's: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." The problem is I haven't got the slightest idea where the original quote came from. I'd really appreciate it if someone in netland would tell me where to find the original quote. Thanks P.S. let's not flood the net with answers. I'll post the first reply I get that I can verify.... Todd Ogasawara U. of Hawaii Computing Center UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!nosc!uhccux!todd ARPA: uhccux!todd@nosc.ARPA INTERNET: todd@UHCC.HAWAII.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 87 17:29:51 GMT From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: attitudes concerning science fiction (was social issues) This turned up recently in talk.politics.misc. Does anyone in sf-lovers care to comment on it? booth@princeton.UUCP (Heather Booth) writes: >... I also think it is encouraged by science fiction. Science >fiction has a lot of people narrowly averting disaster by being >very clever. It has the myth of science and technology saving the >world which is just personal arrogance taken to an extreme. This >is exactly the national attitude of this country, a "we can do >anything," attitude. I'm sure I don't need to point out that we've >failed at doing everything (like having technology *and* a clean >environment, or securing world peace). Most noticeably, science >fiction has a lot of rebelling against old values. It has lots of >brave people doing what "couldn't be done" or what *shouldn't* be >done. This is a "we know better" attitude. As a generation we >have taken up this rebelliousness with a vengeance. We have gotten >rid of religion, traditional families (or perhaps even families at >all, soon), life-long marriage, chastity before marriage, etc, >without even looking to see if we weren't throwing away more than >we were gaining. Sometimes I am amazed at the lack of respect we >show the past. Not for a minute do most of us consider that there >might be a *reason* for these illiberal things we've discarded. >Are we the first people smart enough to doubt religion? Are we the >first *intelligent* generation in the history of man? It seems >unlikely. ... Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Feb 87 0933-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #45 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 3 Feb 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 45 Today's Topics: Books - Eddings & Farmer & Foster & Kingsbury & Milan & Recommendations & Upcoming Books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Jan 87 21:35:34 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: David Eddings and _The Malleorean_ >>I have nearly finished _The_Begariad_ series written by David >>Eddings, and have not been able to find any other books written by >>the author. I did so enjoy the series that I want to read more! >A friend who is on a number of review lists has just recieved >advance uncorrected proofs for _Guardians of the West_, the first >volume of _The Malleorean_, the new series from Eddings. It occurs >after the _Belgariad_ I do not know when it is due out, but would >guess around three months, maybe much less. The Spring Announcements in Publisher's Weekly show it to be a Del Rey hardback, and I believe it is in the May list, which means that bookstores should see it in late April. Paperback is at least a year after that, for people who don't buy hardcovers. This is, by the way, the first in a five book series, so Eddings will be taking us well into the 1990's before this is done. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 11:32:17 EST From: Jeremy Bornstein Subject: Life imitating art Dan Tilque (dant@tekla.tek.com) writes that Vonnegut was "somewhat annoyed" by Farmer's writing _Venus on the Half Shell_. I remember reading, in one of Farmer's introductions (to what book, I'm sorry to say I can't remember), that he asked Vonnegut for permission to write the book and Vonnegut agreed. Perhaps Mr. Bibliography could give us some hard facts? Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 87 15:55:45 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Spellsinger [was re: writing for money's sake] From: mimsy!chris (Chris Torek) > (The worst thing about _Spellsinger_ was that it was clearly Part > One of Two, except that Warner never mentioned that on the cover. > On the other hand, they did have a box on the last page to warn of > the sequel.) SPELLSINGER and THE HOUR OF THE GATE were originally published in hardcover by Phantasia Press as a single book entitled SPELLSINGER AT THE GATE, so Warner Books *did* take a single long book and cut it in two. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 87 00:31:04 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Moon Goddess "The Moon Goddess and the Sun", by Donald Kingsbury is set in the near future. Despite the impression the title may give, it is strongly reminiscent of Mitchner's "Space", expect that it is a fictionalized account of the next phase of the space race instead of the last one. A major focus of the book is the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) (and, largely by implication, space-based defense systems). The author goes to considerable, and largely successful, effort to analyze MAD and its alternatives without compromising his storytelling. Disappointingly, at the very last he changes the problem. Rather than produce (or even posit) a tentative solution to the problem of coexisting -- and existing -- with today's Soviet Union, he retreats to that tired old standby: we can simplify the problem by reforming the Russians. In fairness, this is not pulled out of the blue. Much of the book, in many ways its best part, is devoted (again, without compromising his story) to an attempt to understand and explain how the Russians got to be the way they are In some ways, Kingsbury's predictions are grim indeed. Imagine a future in which it is necessary for some middle-aged man to explain, in an aside, who Hari Seldon was. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 06:35:14 GMT From: loral!ian@rutgers.edu (Ian Kaplan) Subject: Cybernetic Samurai by Victor Milan Cybernetic Samurai, by Victor Milan Ace Science Fiction paper back A book review by Ian Kaplan The human brain is the culmination of million of years of evolution. What if we could build a computer system and its associated software so that it evolved, just as simple nervous systems evolved into the human brain? Where evolution took millions of years, evolution inside of a computer might only take days. In Victor Milan's book Cybernetic Samurai, this is how Dr. Elizabeth O'Neill creats the first artificially aware entity. O'Neill names this entity Tokugawa, after the shogun who unified Japan at the beginning of the seventeenth century (1606) century. Tokugawa is brought into existence in a post world war III world, where the major western powers have nuked each other into decay. Japan also suffered from the war and is now a nation where powerful companies vie for control like the feudal lords in the original Tokugawa's Japan. Over all the companies, like a shogun ruling over the daimyo, is MITI, the Japanese Ministry of International Trade and Industry. The research undertaken by Dr. O'Neill that leads to the creation of Tokugawa is sponsored by Yoshimitsu Akaji, the founder of Yoshimitsu TeleCommunications or YTC. Yoshimitsu is a maverick Japanese businessman who built his company on "fifth generation" computer systems. Yoshimitsu sees the development of an artificial entity as the edge he needs to survive against the hostile MITI, which resents his maveric behavior. Self aware computers are not new in science fiction, but Milan handles it unusually well. He paints a vivid picture of a "cyber punk" vision of feudal Japan. While the book has flaws, Milan seriously considers the implications of an artificial computer based being and the ramifications of its powers (and absolute power in general). As to the the flaws in the book, they cannot be discused without giving away too much of the plot, so you will have to read the book and find them for yourself. USENET: {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!loral!ian ARPA: sdcc6!loral!ian@UCSD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 87 11:38:00 EST From: Ron Singleton Subject: DUNE (story request) >Particularly, if anybody knows of something they consider better >than Dune, I'd be VERY anxious to hear about it. Michael Aden I also thoroughly enjoyed the first three books, Michael. At least, enough to buy the second three as they were released. There was a **fantastic** story there. There were, as written, some of the best *parts* of a story I have ever seen (in the first trilogy, I won't make this statement about the later novels). This, in my humble opinion (what do I know about writing, anyway!?!), is one of the classic cases of where an author is so impressed with success the decision is "more is better". From there the stories go downhill (repeating, this is my opinion not necessarily shared by other readers). Now to your question: Different but one of those big novels that I really liked, try The Mists of Avalon. The Chronicles of Amber, but don't buy the Merlin stories until the third one comes out. I just finished the second and am (angrily) left in the middle of an adventure waiting for the finish. The Spellsinger stories. The Golden Torc series. The Dragon books, except maybe the last two. All of good ol' SKZB. Re-reading this list I suddenly realise my taste seems to have changed. For many years I've been a fan of "hard science" fiction and these are all in "that other" category. So, go to Foundation, Ringworld (not necessarily all of them, someone else will no doubt have suggestions about this), and others of the type I'll hereby dub "semi-classics, at least". I recently finished Cherryh's "Kutath" series and loved it. You might have some trouble finding these since the paperbacks I found were in a used book shop. They may not remain in print. I like SF/Fantasy/Spec-Fi. I read a lot of them, like some love some and dislike some, but seldom start a book that I don't finish. So maybe I'm a special case and am completely out of the park with this list. You'll for sure be seeing lots of response on the DIGEST for the next couple of weeks. Good Luck. Ron S. rsingle@cct.bbn.com.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 23:07:24 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Books in your Future: Publisher's Weekly Spring Subject: Announcements This is compiled lists from the 1/30/87 PW Spring Announcement Issue. This is a list of upcoming books from Publisher's Weekly. Note that schedules change, books disappear, and I've probably missed some stuff. If this list isn't good enough for you, subscribe to PW on your own... These lists are not complete, but just the line highlights described and advertised in Publisher's Weekly. Note that if there are multiple authors, I've only mentioned the first in an attempt to keep my fingers from falling off. Hope you find this useful! Comic, Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Related books Abbeville Winsor McCay: His Life and Art by John Canemaker. March Ace Beyond Wizardwall by Janet Morris. May Beyond the Veil by Janet Morris. February Caught in Crystal by Patricia C. Wrede. March Count Zero by William R. Gibson. April In the Bone: The Best SF of Gordon R. Dickson. March Knight Life by Peter David. April Norby: Robot for Hire by Janet and Isaac Asimov. February Storms of Victory: Janissaries III by Jerry Pournelle. May The Artificial Kid by Bruce Sterling. May The Damnation Game by Clive Barker. May The Sun, The Moon, and the Stars by Steven Brust. May Way of the Pilgrim by Gordon R. Dickson. May Arbor House Wyrms by Orson Scott Card. July Avon Shadowfires by Leigh Nichols. February. Written by Dean R. Koontz Unicorn & Dragon by Lynn Abbey. February Baen Books Judgement Day by Pauline Glen Winslow. June Marooned in Realtime by Vernor Vinge. June Bantam A Darkness at Sethanon by Raymond Feist. February Aegypt by John Crowley. April Chernobyl: A Novel by Frederik Pohl. August Rumors of Spring by Richard Grant. March The Cleanup by John Skipp. March The Grey Horse by R. A. MacAvoy. May The Heart of the Comet by Gregory Benford. March Unto the Beast by Richard Monaco. April Berkley Dome by Michael Reaves. February Drowntide by Sydney J. Van Scyoc. May Helliconia Winter by Brian Aldiss. April The Green Pearl by Jack Vance. March Thieves of Light by Michael Hudson. April Bridge Voyage of Vengeance by L. Ron Hubbard. March. Mission Earth #7 Contemporary Books Isaac Asimov Presents Agents of Byzantium by Harry Turtledove. April Isaac Asimov Presents The Man Who Pulled Down the Sky by John Barnes. April Isaac Asimov Presents Through Darkest America by Neal Barrett DAW Arrows of the Queen by Mercedes Lackey. March Festival Moon: Merovingen Nights #1 by C.J. Cherryh. April. First volume in a new shared world anthology. In Conquest Born by C. S. Friedman. May Night's Sorceries by Tanith Lee. April The Other Side of the Mirror by Marion Zimmer Bradley. February Vagabonds of Gor by John Norman. March Vamps by Martin H. Greenburg. March Del Rey An Emperor for the Legion by Harry Turtledove. May Battle Cry: Robotech #2 by Jack McKinney. March Battlehymn: Robotech #4 by Jack McKinney. March Force of Arms: Robotech #5 by Jack McKinney. May Genesis: Robotech #1 by Jack McKinney. March Guardians of the West by David Eddings. April Homecoming: Robotech #3 by Jack McKinney. March Magic Kingdom for sale: Sold! by Terry Brooks. April Nerilka's Story: A Pern Adventure by Anne McCaffrey. Feburary Pirates of the Thunder by Jack Chalker. March Still River by Hal Clement. June The Annals of the Heechee by Frederik Pohl. March The Smoke Ring by Larry Niven. May The Songs of Distant Earth by A. C. Clarke. May With a Single Spell by Lawrence Watt-Evans. March Doubleday Daughter of the Empire by Raymond Feist. June Last Fall by Bruce Stolbov. May Star Griffin by Michael Kurland. March To Make Death Love us by Sovereign Falconer. July Universe 17 by Terry Carr. June Whispers IV by Stuart David Schiff. July Faber and Faber Shelter by Marty Asher. May [ed. comment: good, strange book. Very much like good Vonnegut] Facts on File The Encyclopedia of Superheroes by Jeff Rovin. April Harcourt Brace Jovanovich Fiasco by Stanislaw Lem. May Present Conserns by C. S. Lewis. March Solaris by Stanislaw Lem. May House of Collectibles The Official Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide, 17th edition by Robert Overstreet. May Pocket Books Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise by Shane Johnson, May Poseidon Press In the Flesh by Clive Barker. February Putnam Dayworld Rebel by Philip Jose Farmer. June Out of Phaze: Book Four of Apprentice Adept by Piers Anthony. June The Ascension Factor by Frank Herbert. August The Damnation Game by Clive Barker. May To Sail Beyond the Sunset by Robert A. Heinlein. July Watchers by Dean R. Koontz. February St. Martin's The Space Merchants by Frederik Pohl. March Starblaze A Distant Soil -- Immigrant Song by Collen Doran. Aria -- The Knights of Aquarius by M. Weyland. Buck godot -- Zap gun for Hire by Phil Foglio. Duncan & Mallory -- The Bar None Ranch by Robert Asprin. Fortune's Friends: Lucky Lacey by Kay Reynolds. Mage -- The Hero discovered by Matt Wagner. March Myth-Nomers and Im-Pervections by Robert Asprin. Robotech Art #2 by Kay Reynolds. Thieves' World Graphic #5 by Rovert Asprin. Thordal -- The Archers by Jean Van Hamme. Tor Bard by Morgan Llewelyn. March Flight in Yiktor by Andre Norton. April God Game by Andrew Greeley. May Nightfall by John Farris. April Noonday by Robert Perrin. April Speaker for the Dead by Orson Scott Card. February. [will probably win 1986 Hugo and Nebula] Sword at Sunset by Linda Crocker. March The Labrynth of Dreams by Jack L. Chalker. March Time out of Mind by Jorn R. Maxim. February Shade of the Tree by Piers Anthony. May Walker How to Enjoy Writing: A book of Aid and Comfort by Janet and Isaac Asimov. April Warner Dawn by Octavia Butler. May Workman Barlowe's Guide to Extraterresterials by Wayned Douglas. May Writer's Digest Books How to Write Tales of Horror, Fantasy and Science Fiction by J. N. williamson. March Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Feb 87 0826-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #46 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Feb 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 46 Today's Topics: Books - Curran & Herbert (2 msgs) & McCaffrey & Niven & Sagan (2 msgs) & Tubb ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Jan 87 10:39:54 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Book: IN ADVANCE OF THE LANDING I thought this book, which I just got from the St. Louis Public Library, might be of interest to both the SF-L and SPACE readership. IN ADVANCE OF THE LANDING: Folk Concepts of Outer Space, by Douglas Curran (Abbeville Press, New York, 1985, ISBN 0-89659-523-4, paperback, large format [9" X 10"]) This is a pictorial and verbal look through the UFOlogists, saucerians, New Age and suchlike underground of North America. It includes a large number of interesting pictures of architectural spacecraft (houses and stores built to resemble flying saucers, rocket ships mounted on gas stations, etc.) and some interviews with and descriptions of people who claim to have been contacted by, travelled with, or be psychically attuned with aliens from outer space. My personal favorite is John Shepherd of Bellaire, Mich., who has turned his grandparents' small cottage into a lab filled with racks of electronic equipment designed to detect and contact UFOs: "Grandpa Lamb used to grumble at the growing incursion of paraphernalia into the living room. Eventually, he and Mrs. Lamb were left with only a small settee scrunched into a corner between whole walls taken up with John's consoles and oscilloscopes. Grandpa Lamb died two years ago. Now John and his grandmother make a good team. Together they built an addition on the house to allow space for John's burgeoning equipment and put a rocking chair in the living room for Mrs. Lamb." There's a nice picture of John amongst his gear; now THAT's my idea of high-class interior decoration! :-) Anyway, if you've ever wondered about the people who build flying saucers in their basements under the direction of mysterious voices, or those who claim to be the reincarnation of galactic emperors from the Orion Nebula, or who just think it is a neat thing to have a forty-foot sheet-metal rocket as a front-lawn decoration, this is a good introduction to the field. Did you know, for example, that the official community Bicentennial project of Lake City, Pennsylvania, was to build a UFO Landing Port, equipped with radio homing beacons and a fibreglass decoy saucer? Or that St. Paul, Alberta, built the world's first UFO landing pad, the territory underneath it being declared to be "international" and open to all visitors "from Earth or otherwise"? Regards, Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 87 21:26:21 GMT From: eneevax!russell@rutgers.edu (Christopher Russell) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #20 I rather enjoyed reading DUNE. I found it a good combination of adventure, politics, and other cultures. The movie, on the other hand, left MUCH to be desired. Although the first half of the movie followed the book "rather" well (the changes made were sometimes drastic, but understandable), as soon as Paul goes into the desert, it's as if the screenwriters chucked the book in the trash. When it rained in the end, I almost cried. As for the sequels to DUNE, I've never read them. I heard that they were never up to the original. Chris Russell Arpa: russell@king.ee.umd.edu UUCP: ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell Jnet: russell@umcincom ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 87 20:28:13 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes: > So far I have received many many suggestions about SF books. >Almost all of them suggested Dune. I got into Dune last year, and >to my disappointment, it is let's say, very discersive(sp?) I >think I agree with one of my friends who said that Herbert >definitely read a lots of books, but Dune was like a literary >critique written by a second year college student. The student did >not really understand what the work is all about, but he/she went >to library and dug out all the essays about the work, and lumped >all the ideas together with some transitional phrases. >Unfortunetely, I found it to be true. More- over, I think the >reason why they cannot make a movie out of it is because there are >too many things being discussed in the book but none in depth. I think Dune is the single most embarrassing Hugo-plus-Nebula pick ever, even worse than Neuromancer. Herbert, as always, served a cold dish with characters as flat as halibuts, their heads removed, arranged in a peculiarly shallow and static fashion. The ideas involved are familiar: nomadic lifetsyles, corrupt merchant princes, alien life forms, scientific meditators who compute or stop their metabolism at will. None was ever particularly inspiring by itself, and nothing redeems them from the usual melange in this book. > Many of you asked me what I mean by big stories. I think this >is hard for me to define precisely. I can only give some examples: >Ren. with Rama. The Gods themselves. 2001. For all the SF I have >read, I like Ren. with Rama the best. That is the best example of >what I mean by big story. It is also a real scientific story. It >does not assume any fancy wiggits whose working mechnism cannot be >understood(Well, except the gravity drive but that wiggit is not >really essential to the big space ship). The story gives the >reader some real impression of how big the universe is. I mean >that we all know that the universe is BIG, XXX light years this way >and that way, but it is just numbers. When I think about the >universe it is always no bigger than my brain. But this story >really gives the reader some glimpse of the vastness of the >universe, and our position in it. This one of the few redeeming features to appear in some of Jack Chalker, at least in his best work, the Well World stories. These are highly entertaining by virtue of Chalker's not-yet-dry imagination and as a result of the scale of the conceptions, the feeling of putting the cosmos in reach. You might want to try "Midnight at the Well of Souls" and read the rest if you like it. > Many of you had suggested Heinlein's work. As some of you have >suggested I have just finished reading The Puppet Master. I don't >think it is well written. It is of typical 50's cold war >mentality. I have not read any critics about that book, but I do >have an impression that this is basically a communism VS. >capitalism story. The slugs refered to themselves as "people" and >the guys, and girls fighting the slugs keep saying "free man". >Well, has anyone read any critique about this book yet? I may be >reading more into the story than there really is. I basically >think this is a not so good version of SF 1984. > eugene You are clearly a demon. Congratulations. Most SF readers take years to get to that stage. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 87 06:41:31 GMT From: rlgvax!jesse@rutgers.edu (Jesse Barber) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #20 Michael_R._Aden.RDES@Xerox.COM writes: > In that vein, I'm curious as to your views on the quality of other > more developed series of books ( examples which spring to mind are > the Dune books, Asimov's Foundation stuff, and Tolkein, to name a > few). > > Particularly, if anybody knows of something they consider better > than Dune, I'd be VERY anxious to hear about it. The first book of that series, *DUNE*, has no equal in my library. The whole series however, never quite lived up to the first book. One series of books that I also liked a lot (although a little lighter than the series' you mentioned) are the Dragonriders of Pern books by Anne McCaffrey. There are eight books in the group, six of which have characters in common. All, however relate to the same "time line", that is they share a common view of the history of the planet Pern. The basic plot of the series is that the planet Pern (which has lost touch with Earth) breeds a native life form resembling dragons to help fight against spores from a neighboring planet. The planet gets close enough every two hundred years for the spores to bridge the gap between the two planets. The people who can ride and control the "dragons" (yes, they do breath fire) are required to have a high telepathic/empathic ability, because that's how they communicate with the dragons. This setup leads to a feudal society, where the dragonriders are the "knights of old", and are supported by the remainder of the population. If the above sounds hokey, it's my fault. It's like trying to explain the FOUNDATION stories in two paragraphs. At any rate, the series was very enjoyable, from first to last book. A nice touch about the series is the fact that two of the (first six) books are told from the dragonriders' point of view while another three are from the harpers' (minstrels) point of view. The sixth book combines the previous characters, but is primarily from the landowners' viewpoint. The books in the series are: Dragonflight Dragonsong Dragonquest Dragonsinger Dragondrummer The White Dragon Plus Pern "historical" books Moreta's Ride Nekrila's Story Jesse @ C.C.I. Reston, Va. seismo!rlgvax!jesse ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 87 05:04:01 GMT From: cooper!chris@rutgers.edu (Chris Lent ) Subject: Stepping disks [RINGWORLD ENGINEERS *SPOILER*] Here's a thought about "Ringworld Engineers" and its depressing ending: Couldn't Louis Wu have used any remaining stepping disks to move some significant portion of the population out of the 5% sector to be blasted by the induced solar flare? I know there are quite a few practical aspects to be dealt with: 1. How to get the stepping disks to population centers? (The Hindmost's ship?) 2. How to persuade the population to jump onto the stepping disk? (The "God Gambit" and representative leaders from each species) (Roaches go in but the don't come out?) 3. How far can you move in a single stepping disk hop and still have the inlet and outlet stepping disks provide repeatedly surviable hops? (Seems like it should be a reasonable distance, but from the middle of the affected 5% section might be too far.) 4. Do we have the old "Marching Chinese Problem" but multiplied by a few powers? 5. Who decides whom to take? And some other thoughts: What is the capacity of a stepping disk? Could you hover a lander over one, land with just one strut on the disk and *poof* be inside a lander over the outlet disk? How do you feed a mob like this at the other end? ("Okay, everybody bring your own lunch!") It seems that Teela should have seen this possibility, but then again maybe the math doesn't work out well. But it does seem if they had months to work with they could move quite a few people. I guess if Moses had stepping disks, leaving might have been a wee bit easier :-) Enjoy, Chris Lent ihnp4!philabs!phri!cooper!chris (203) 452-1522 ------------------------------ Date: Mon 2 Feb 87 11:20:44-PST From: Mary Holstege Subject: RE: Contact Pi changing value? Pi being modulated?!? Very silly, I agree, HAD SAGAN CLAIMED ANY SUCH THING. But he didn't. It's quite clear that what is going on with the "messages" in the transendental numbers is this: the creator of the universe (God, if you like) was capable of creating the universe such that transendentals had particular values. Particular CONSTANT values. And that the creator chose those values so that, when the expansions under various bases were examined, patterns emerged. THESE are the "messages." There is no hint of real-time communication in this. So all the flamage about the value of pi changing is completely off-base. In fact, most of the scathing criticism of this book I have seen has been equally off-base, by people who apparently skimmed through it looking for excuses to hate it. I have been astounded at the reactions I have seen to this book by sf readers generally. It seems as if everyone has some axe to grind against Carl Sagan and they are taking it out on his book, regardless of its true merit. My advice to those who have been put off from reading the book by all this: READ THIS BOOK. It is a damn fine book, the best book I read last year, and just about the only SF book I have ever read with a believable female character (stress on all three; others have been unbelievable, men in drag, or one-dimensional non-characters). (And the excellent characterization is far from its only merit.) READ IT READ IT READ IT. Four stars, definitely. Mary ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 87 06:42:29 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Contact From: Mary Holstege > In fact, most of the scathing criticism of this book I have seen > has been equally off-base, by people who apparently skimmed > through it looking for excuses to hate it. I have been astounded > at the reactions I have seen to this book by sf readers > generally. It seems as if everyone has some axe to grind against > Carl Sagan and they are taking it out on his book, regardless of > its true merit. I haven't read Contact, but I felt that both "The Dragons of Eden" and "Broca's Brain" were fine books, less chatty and egotistical, and more informative and readable, than, say, Asimov's popularizations. I've always felt that most of the opposition to Sagan was from people who had just watched Cosmos and been turned off by his screen personality. Within SF fandom, of course, there is a gut reaction against anyone who writes a science fiction novel but causes it to be marketed in the general fiction section of the bookstore rather than the SF shelves. Contact was not marketed as category SF, and generated opposition within fandom by the simple act of so doing. It also gained millions of readers and made many people aware of the possibility for worthwhile literary achievments within futuristic and space settings, just as Vonnegut has done. > My advice to those who have been put off from reading the book by > all this: READ THIS BOOK. It is a damn fine book, the best book > I read last year, and just about the only SF book I have ever > read with a believable female character (stress on all three; > others have been unbelievable, men in drag, or one-dimensional > non-characters). (And the excellent characterization is far from > its only merit.) > > READ IT READ IT READ IT. Four stars, definitely. Thanks for the advice. It is difficult to tell whether one would like a book or not, given only out-of-context technical arguments spawned by the super-science hugger mugger in the situation. Yours are the only literary comments I've seen on the book, and from the other Sagan I've read they seem plausible, since he is a very humanistic writer. (As for the technical argument, can we all just agree that he should have used the gravitational constant or Planck's constant instead of a purely mathematical number for a marginal increase in plausibility, and then drop this subject?) Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 87 17:20:31 GMT From: valid!jao@rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) Subject: Dumerest Normally I don't like long series books, all of which are basically the same, but for some reason I have bought and read all 31 of E. C. Tubb's Dumerest books. For a long time they came out 2 a year, but none has appeared for about 2 years now. I haven't read anything in Locus or elsewhere about Tubb dying or giving up the series. Does anybody know anything about why there are no new Dumerest books? John Oswalt ..!amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Feb 87 0843-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #47 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Feb 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 47 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' (8 msgs) & Writing for Money's Sake (2 msgs) & Social Attitudes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Jan 87 18:53:46 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >>Historically, the term "sci-fi" has been used in a deragatory >>manner > Can you give any evidence that this "historical" footnote is >true? I have been assuming that "sci fi" became a no-no in the way >(for instance) "Frisco" for San Francisco did: some pinheads with >influence just decreed this as Truth. The rest follows. In my experience, use of "sci fi" does correlate highly with feelings that the genre is trash. If this has been true for a long time, as I believe it has, then it is reasonable to believe that people wanted to get away from a term with such negative connotations. I cannot support the phrase "as I believe it has", above, other than to say that it has been my experience in the eight years or so that I've been involved to some extent in sf-dom, and that I have gathered that it was the case before then from reading the words of people older than I. Ask someone in First Fandom for a more definitive answer. (Another reason for wanting a different term is that it makes people think about what it is they're talking about. One excellent reason for "sf" is that it may stand for "science fiction" or "speculative fiction", and asking people who casually dismiss the genre with "oh, that sci fi stuff" to use another term *and* *explaining* *why* may make them take another look at it before dismissing it.) About "some pinheads with influence": it's perfectly legitimate to want to get away from the use of a word with powerful negative connotations. For a clear example, consider "nigger", which is really just a contraction of "Negro". If you don't mind the term "sci fi", fine; but recognize that some people have good reasons to dislike its use. Shoshanna Green ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 22:23:16 GMT From: uwmacc!oyster@rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene W. Smith) writes: > Can you give any evidence that this "historical" footnote is >true? I have been assuming that "sci fi" became a no-no in the way >(for instance) "Frisco" for San Francisco did: some pinheads with >influence just decreed this as Truth. The rest follows. Exactly. That's how language changes. A similar example is the word "hacker." Regardless of what Marilyn Dee thinks, the word is in regular usage now with a different connotation than it perhaps originally had. All it takes is enough influential pinheads (as you put it) to use the word in a negative context, and all the compunerds in the world can't change it. Joel {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 12:40:22 EST From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: "Sci-Fi" gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >>Historically, the term "sci-fi" has been used in a derogatory >>manner by people who do not believe that sf/science >>fiction/speculative fiction/whatever this stuff is is a valid form >>of literature. > Can you give any evidence that this "historical" footnote is >true? I have been assuming that "sci fi" became a no-no in the way >(for instance) "Frisco" for San Francisco did: some pinheads with >influence just decreed this as Truth. The rest follows. I \really/ don't want to get into the issue of whether, e.g., Harlan Ellison (who is one of the ones known to have inflamed this argument) is a Pinhead with Influence (both sides of that slam being debatable); however, it is a matter of record that the term has been used by people with \no/ knowledge of the field, possibly as an attempt to show that they're hip. E.g., CBS executive to Gene Roddenberry when he was pitching STAR TREK: "We don't need another sci-fi show; we've got LOST IN SPACE." (Yes, I know ST wasn't the greatest thing in the universe, but it was long way beyond LASSIE IN SPACE.) It's also worth noting that Ackermann, who coined the term (allegedly analogous to "hi-fi") is noted for lack of any discrimination whatsoever; his last major influence on the field was the US translation/publication of the German pulp series PERRY RHODAN. I tend to use SF partly because it begs the question; I really don't care if the store mixes "science fiction" and "fantasy", if only because it means the people looking for popular (mostly fantasy) series are at least exposed to the rest of SF (whatever such exposure is worth). Chip Hitchcock ARPA: CJH@CCA.CCA.COM uu: ...!{decvax!linus, seismo!harvard, cbosgd, caip!think}!cca!cjh ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 01:54:24 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >In my experience, use of "sci fi" does correlate highly with >feelings that the genre is trash. If this has been true for a long >time, as I believe it has, then it is reasonable to believe that >people wanted to get away from a term with such negative >connotations. I've been reading "this stuff" (whatever you want to call it) for over thirty years. I seem to recall a time when one could say "sci fi" with impunity. And I like the sound of it--it has a nice ring. And supposedly the world's fanniest fan invented it, for Ghod's sake. So why all of a sudden is it a no no? Why do people insist (to my mind foolishly and obnoxiously) that using it is proof you are not a True Fan, and claim "sf" (stupid word) is better? The whole thing is annoying. In fact (speaking for my segment of Random Fandom) it is symptomatic of a lot of what is annoying about the fannish subculture. Here we have a bunch of people who pride themselves on Independent Thought, but insist on everyone acting like lobotomized zombies--it is Decreed, so Mote it Be. Bleeh. Gene Ward Smith UCB Math Dept Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 87 08:36 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' I've always found the terms a useful way of telling neos from more experienced fans. Same with the terms "Trekker" and "Trekkie" in Star Trek fandom. About, oh, 5 years ago, there was quite a controversy over the terms, with some fans going to cons wearing buttons proclaiming "Fight Fannish Elitism -- call it Sci Fi." and the great thrill of practical jokers was to use the terms "Sci Fi" or "Skiffy" in a con suite a Worldcon, and hear the room go silent. It all seemed quite silly to me. But then, as Arthur Hlavaty coined the phrase, SF fans are hyperlexic -- they put a lot of emphasis on words. Speaking of words, anyone know who coined the phrase "mundane" for non-SF fans? I've long thought that any group expecting much cohesiveness not only needs to have a word describing their group, but also a pejorative describing their group which they can protest against, and a pejorative describing folks outside the group. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 87 17:56:45 GMT From: petsd!cjh@rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes: > Why do people insist (to my mind foolishly and obnoxiously) that >using it is proof you are not a True Fan, and claim "sf" (stupid >word) is better? > Here we have a bunch of people who pride themselves on >Independent Thought... They're acting like people! They're creating a shibboleth. They're turning a difference of speech habits (in this case, way too small to call it a dialect) into a password. The function of this is to define an in-group (us who are *serious* about science fiction) and defend it against those who (presumably) look down on science fiction by whatever name. The word "shibboleth" comes from an anecdote in the Bible (Book of Judges, perhaps) where two tribes were having a war. Then and there, your life could depend on not saying "sibboleth". The practice of creating shibboleths has clearly been around for a while, and probably will be around for a little while longer. Regards, Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 758-7288 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 87 01:17:26 GMT From: ihlpa!smann@rutgers.edu (Mann) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >>In my experience, use of "sci fi" does correlate highly with >>feelings that the genre is trash. > I've been reading "this stuff" (whatever you want to call it) > for over thirty years. Why do people insist...that using it is > proof you are not a True Fan? The whole thing is annoying. In > fact (speaking for my segment of Random Fandom) it is symptomatic > of a lot of what is annoying about the fannish subculture. I too have been reading science fiction for over 30 years. To read in this forum that real lovers (or fans) of science fiction do not call it sci fi hit my funny bone and made me wonder what gave that person the right to speak for me that way. Those who make claims for whole groups of people should be a bit more careful of whom they include in those groups. Please consider me a fan and lover of science fiction, of sf, and/or of sci fi, but please don't include me in as part of the "fannish subculture." Just somebody who likes science fiction no matter what it's called. Sherry Mann ihnp4!ihlpa!smann ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 87 00:14:35 GMT From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' So why not cll it fantasy and be done with it? Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 87 07:00:52 GMT From: msudoc!krj@rutgers.edu (Ken Josenhans {msucl Systems}) Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake jao@valid.UUCP (John Oswalt) writes >I can think of two reasons. The first is that it is easier to >write a sequel than it is to think up new characters and universes. >This is the author's fault. The second, and more important, is the >readers' fault: publishers have discovered that it is easer to >market a sequel than a new story, because readers are more likely >to buy something they feel familiar with than to try something new. On the second point, let me garble a story William Gibson told on a panel at Norwescon in 1982 or 1983: Gibson was riding the bus one day and saw a young man reading an issue of Omni which had a Gibson story in it. Without identifying himself, Gibson tried to draw the young man into a discussion to find out if he'd liked the story. Eventually, Gibson asked, "So, what kind of science fiction do you like?" The young man answered, "Trilogies." Ken Josenhans P.O. Box 6610 East Lansing, MI 48823 UUCP: ...ihnp4!msudoc!krj BITNET: 13020KRJ@MSU ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 87 00:30:50 GMT From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake I don't know about this ``writing for money's sake'' stuff, folks. You can make a phenomenal amount of money writing computer manuals. It is writing, and you don't have to worry about the plot much. I think this ``I do hackwork for the $$'' stuff, in this day and age, is largely just an excuse. You can write manuals, documentation, marketting blurbs, and all sorts of stuff. And, if you can really write well, and are willing to freelance -- which is, after all, what authors are supposed to be doing -- you can make more than $100/hr for technical writing. Then, I don't know, but I suspect that the first draft of the latest Xanth novel didn't take more than a month or two to write, if that. I guess he is making a lot more money than the $100/hr if I read the sales figures correctly. But then, how much money does one need before one can sit down and write good fiction? Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 87 01:39:56 GMT From: harlie!carl@rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: attitudes concerning science fiction (was social issues) ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee): >booth@princeton.UUCP (Heather Booth) writes: >>... I also think it is encouraged by science fiction. Science >>fiction has a lot of people narrowly averting disaster by being >>very clever. It has the myth of science and technology saving the >>world which is just personal arrogance taken to an extreme. This >>is exactly the What was that date, August something 1945? World War averted by new miracle weapon? Not that it's come to a happy ending with current stockpiling of these threats. >>national attitude of this country, a "we can do anything," >>attitude. I'm sure I don't need to point out that we've failed at >>doing everything (like having technology *and* a clean >>environment, or securing world Notice the number of people being uncooperative about securing world peace, and ask a longtime resident of Los Angeles how much cleaner the sky has gotten there. (I will admit that capitalism encourages a Bad Attitude in some corporations that feel free to pollute.) >>peace). Most noticeably, science fiction has a lot of rebelling >>against old values. It has lots of brave people doing what >>"couldn't be done" or what *shouldn't* be done. This is a "we >>know better" attitude. A lot of things supposedly can't be done. Someone probably said you couldn't squeeze the equivalent of several thousand vacuum tubes onto a little piece of semiconductor. People used to think the notion of putting a man on the Moon was fallacy. >>As a generation we have taken up this rebelliousness with a >>vengeance. Could someone tell me the birthdate range of the generation being referred to? I'm unashamed to admit that I turned 16 yesterday, and count myself in the below: >>We have gotten rid of religion, traditional families (or perhaps >>even families at all, soon), life-long marriage, chastity before >>marriage, etc, without even looking to see if we weren't throwing >>away more than we were gaining. Sometimes I am amazed at the lack >>of respect we show the past. Not for a minute do most of us >>consider that there might be a *reason* for these illiberal things >>we've discarded. Are we the first Someone show that one to a grammar professor. Perhaps the *reasons* for some of these "illiberal" things have gone away? Like needing psychological crutches (hey, don't knock 'em, religion helps some people, just not me), not needing to intermarry to settle feuds, and therefore no need for intact merchandise, etc.? >>people smart enough to doubt religion? Are we the first >>*intelligent* generation in the history of man? It seems >>unlikely. Are we the first people to doubt religion and survive? Are we the first intelligent generation to have the opportunities we do today? Are we the first people to realise that tradition can stagnate? (My father is an an Episcopal priest and IRS tax auditor and an expert at making people miserable. I'd be a REAL mess if I'd had to grow up around him. I've learned to question the notions of religion, traditional families, lifelong marriage, and been ADVISED not to marry without finding out what the supposed consort is like in bed. After all, it only takes one example to disprove a theory. Perhaps we've just been HOUSECLEANING?) P.S. I'll admit it, I *am* addicted to science fiction and fantasy. But at least I can tell the difference between those and reality... and see how little there is sometimes. :-) Carl Greenberg {qantel,ihnp4,lll-crg}!ptsfa!harlie!carl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Feb 87 0859-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #48 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Feb 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 48 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Jan 87 18:45:25 GMT From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: Teckla trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) writes: > Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody > things? Sure, you may be one of the best storytellers since JRRT, > but even a most stalwart fan of the Vlad series, such as myself, > would get tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books. (I just hope > you don't get carried away by the commercial thought that us > stalwart fans would probably still buy all 17 unless they got > unbearable) I, for one, do not share this viewpoint. As long as Mr. Brust can manage to keep the books from turning into just hack adventure (a la Doc Savage) I will happily buy as many of them as he cares to write. I don't think this will be a problem as long as Vlad's character grows and develops as the books progress, which almost has to happen. After all, at the rate he manages to get into things over his head, he can't stay running a small territory forever. He's either going to get into bigger and better things, or six feet under. On the other hand, there are a lot of things refered to in Jhereg, etc. that I would love to see explained, like just exactly what happened at Deathgate Falls, etc. (hint, hint). Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA UUCP: ...decvax!ll-xn!kathy ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU phone: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-7210 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 13:26:02 est From: Bard Bloom Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #36 trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) writes: >Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody things? >Sure, you may be one of the best storytellers since JRRT, but even >a most stalwart fan of the Vlad series, such as myself, would get >tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books. Some time (1-2 years) ago, when skzb was a SF-LOVERS regular, someone asked him this. His reply was on the order of "If I keep having things to say, maybe I will. Otherwise, I won't. I want to write other things too." Well, there are more things to describe, if not necessarily things to say. The future, for example: the revolution is still around. If he wants to write more adventure stories, he can always dig into Vlad's sordid past and explain some of the cryptic references he's given. I have the impression, though, that skzb (since _To Reign in Hell_ anyways) prefers to have some message, some conflict of philosophies as well as characters. This shouldn't be a problem with the revolution stories, although that may tend to force him to use the same congeries of opposing philosophies. I hope he won't try to write Vlad's early history in his current style; it would confuse the character of the world more than it already is. (For that matter, I wish that skzb had written _Teckla_ in another setting. Watching the central character change is no bad thing; but I think Vlad and Cawti changed much too fast, in their time and in ours.) Bard Bloom ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 21:17:32 GMT From: uw-june!ewan@rutgers.edu (Ewan Tempero) Subject: Re: Teckla Ok I wasn't going to join this discussion (Ha! how many times have you heard that line...:-) But I have been hearing comments of the form the "Vlad series" this and the "Vlad series" that. I quibble with the use of "series" here. It is true that we've seen 3 stories that centre around the same character in the same world and so forth. But they have all been told in such a way that they can all be taken as independent stories - with very little reference to the others (but that's another story...:-). This is clear by the fact that they weren't even published in chronological order or was it that I didn't read them in chronological order... Anyway, this business about having a *real* ending to the series becomes a somewhat moot point. I do realize we have yet to learn some things (like who *ie* Devera) which suggests such a "real" ending might suggest but...what the hell - if he still produces good stuff I'll read it no matter who's telling the story. end of ramble Ewan Tempero UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 87 23:18:23 GMT From: uw-june!ewan@rutgers.edu (Ewan Tempero) Subject: Re: Teckla Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes: > 'acceptable' motives for murder. It was killing without > compunction for personal gain (perhaps not gold coins, but > certainly coin of another sort! Acceptance, her husband's > continued survival, greed for the 65k in Um...remember that there was an even chance that if Vlad hadn't succeeded in his assasination the entire empire would have collapsed in a major war. Although I guess staying alive is still personal gain.... Also, remember that her effort took place several weeks (not days as has been mentioned) earlier than Teckla and one could imagine her struggling with her conscience afterward. There was one point that I don't remember being made clear in Teckla, namely how long had Catwi been in the revolution. There was one comment that suggested it hadn't been long ("She will make a good revolutionary" or some such). Maybe she was approached after Jhereg? Ewan Tempero UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 87 03:35:56 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Teckla This posting is further commentary on the posting by ``Scott'' which attempts to tear TECKLA apart. I'm trying to clarify Chuq's points... chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >>The problem with Teckla is that despite all the action in the >>book, nothing much happens. > >Uh, Vlad gets in trouble, gets in more trouble, runs around with an >assassin on his ass trying to find a solution, gets in even more >trouble, finds a semi-solution, sort of. All the while having a >major marital problem. Cawti moves out, there is a major uprising >and near rebellion. > >Uh, what book were you reading? It wasn't Teckla... And at the end of the book, they are back together, the rebellion has been sent back into its original status (i.e. fermenting, not erupting), etc. On the other hand, the same can be said of the other two books: very little changes between the beginning and the end. In the ``physical'' environment of the story, that is. In TECKLA, we actually have *more* of a story; the other two talk about major events in Vlad's life, but he doesn't change much. In TECKLA, both Vlad and Cawti mature. We get to see the causes and watch the events unfold that will shape Vlad and Cawti into more mature people. Most importantly, they both *learned* something. Unfortunately, people who are looking for the same kind of story that they read in JHEREG or TECKLA will get a nasty surprise; light humor it isn't. But as a result of TECKLA, Vlad is suddenly three-dimensional, and MUCH more interesting. >I hate to break this to people, but every time I've dealt with >Steven, I've found him to be a mellow and down to earth person. His >head is swelled a LOT less than all these wonderful people who get >off by beating on people more successful than themselves. There is >an old Hungarian proverb: If you can't do something as good as >someone else, belittle it. It won't be productive, but you'll feel >better. (thank you, Mr. Bananacheck) Any author who takes his works so un-seriously as to poke fun at them in casual conversation (``Jar-head'', etc.) isn't likely to get swell-head. >>Finally, I also disliked Teckla because the ideologies Brust's >>presents are not only embarrassingly simple-minded but frankly >>quite boring as well. Have you ever examined your neighbors' ideologies, Scott? Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 781 6201 ------------------------------ Date: 1 Feb 87 12:09:14 GMT From: starfire!brust@rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) Subject: Re: Teckla trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) writes: > Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody > things? The maximum is nineteen--one per House, a first one named EASTERNER and a last one called something like, THE LAST CONTRACT. I don't know how many I'll actually write. I hope I have the strength of will to stop when I feel I've mined the territory to my own satisfaction, or when I get bored with them. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Feb 87 12:38:40 GMT From: starfire!brust@rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) Subject: Re: Teckla From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM >>I just gotta set one thing straight--at no time, in Jar-head, did >>Cawti perform an assassination. She helped Vlad, she made a >>supposed offer to do an assassination, and like that. But she >>never performed an actual murder-for-pay. > Arguing with the author about what he meant seems patently foolish > on the face of it, but... > > She did perform a quick and efficient murder in Jhereg, though! > (one of Mellar's guards, I believe...) She may have done this for > the sake of her husband and perhaps for a little chance to > practice the old trade, but without much moral reservation that I > could see. Arguing with a reader about what I meant seems just as absurd, but I want to make a couple of points. One--I have tried to make it clear that among that group of people (the Jhereg) assassination has a specific meaning--killing for money. Two--More importantly, Cawti acted to get Vlad out of a life-threatening situation, and she did it with as much panache as she could muster. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Feb 87 12:19:28 GMT From: starfire!brust@rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) Subject: Re: Question for skzb As a matter of fact, the animal of one of the Houses is somewhat like a beaver. Not that one, though. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 87 01:37:54 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Teckla ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes: >Also, remember that her effort took place several weeks (not days >as has been mentioned) earlier than Teckla and one could imagine >her struggling with her conscience afterward. Apologies, people; I had gone leafing through my copy of TECKLA as I wrote my article and thought I had found a reference to it happening three days after the end of JHEREG. On re-checking just now, I note ``a few weeks'' stated in the Prologue while Vlad is talking to Banijok. This does make a bit more sense; in three weeks I know *I* can have a fundamental rearrangement of my basic beliefs. (On the other hand, I'm flexible. :-) >> 'acceptable' motives for murder. It was killing without >> compunction for personal gain (perhaps not gold coins, but >> certainly coin of another sort! Acceptance, her husband's >> continued survival, greed for the 65k in >Um...remember that there was an even chance that if Vlad hadn't >succeeded in his assasination the entire empire would have >collapsed in a major war. Although I guess staying alive is still >personal gain.... As for my so-considered ``misuse'' of the term ``assassination'', while it wasn't done directly for money, it in effect made Cawti an accomplice in the assassination of Leareth (Mellar). ``Even chance''??? More like 100% than 50%, friend. And considering what happened the last time the Dragons and Jhereg had it out with each other, this one would have been a doozy...! Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 781 6201 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 87 23:53:10 GMT From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: Teckla allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >Apologies, people; I had gone leafing through my copy of TECKLA as >I wrote my article and thought I had found a reference to it >happening three days after the end of JHEREG. On re-checking just >now, I note ``a few weeks'' stated in the Prologue while Vlad is >talking to Banijok. This does make a bit more sense; in three >weeks I know *I* can have a fundamental rearrange- ment of my basic >beliefs. (On the other hand, I'm flexible. :-) Good. I won't have to bitch about the three weeks business. I often wonder if other people only read every other paragraph... Listen up people, and listen up good. I don't know of a single more believable character in fiction than Cawti. What Cawti did was so incredibly believable that I can not understand how the rest of you missed it. Look at her. She was a member of a competant assassination team. I don't know whether she did any assassinating herself, but she accepted a contract on Vlad. And then she fell in love with Vlad. How's that for a reason to make you doubt that you are in the right career. And then Norathar, her friend, has no time for her because Norathar is becoming a Dragon. Then end of a partnership, indeed. And Vlad is not much help to live with -- sure she loves him, but every time she looks at him she sees that he is becoming the best assassin in town -- and does she want to live with that? He is a better witch than she is, and his business is doing very, very well. he has respect among the Jhereg. What has Cawti got. Loneliness. Boredom. Where is she supposed to go meet friends and figure out what to do with her life? The Dragaerans dispise the Jhereg -- so it is off to find some Easterners and Teckla. And what happens? She ends up in the middle of a bloody revolution. Does this strike you as unlikely? Does the arguments used sound sophmoric -- then I suspect that you have never lived or travelled extensively in Central America. Peasant revolts are always on the verge of happening. And they are not lead by the intelligensia from U of Chicago either -- they are the same old platitudes said by labourers and farmers...the revoluitonary group Cawti joined is like hundreds of groups I have seen all over north and south america. the question is -- why did Cawti join them? It is a very good question. It is the same question you have when you wonder why your manager sold out the whole group to higher management, and how come your kids did something utterly unreasonable at school, and how come your husband has suddenly withdrawn all his support for your carreer when he used to be your only supporter. Why do people do things like that? There are reasons for these things. Strange reasons. It is a strange world. The limits to which people will go to feel wanted, to feel that they belong, to feel loved really strain credibility. Life is like that. Cawti got a lot of respect, and a certain amount of admiration, and some heroes, and some people who will give her ego strokes and hero worship, and a chance to matter in the world. Is it any wonder she jumped on it? It didn't matter what the slogans were -- she had a place where she belonged. Vlad's ego was never so in need of strokes. he has Loiosh, and he never was in a partnership -- until he and Cawti moved in together. And for the sake of that fragile partnership he goes on, day after day, risking his life and all that he has worked for. Amazing the things that brave people will do for those they love. Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Mar 87 1014-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #49 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 3 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 49 Today's Topics: Administrivia - DON'T PANIC!!!!!!!!, Miscellaneous - Star Trek (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Mar 86 09:32:43 EST From: Saul Subject: DON'T PANIC!!!!!!!! This is a message to the uncountably large number of people who sent mail asking why they haven't received a digest since the beginning of February. Those who didn't write may be wondring as well. I guess Robert Burns put it best when he said (translated into common English), "The best laid plans of mice and men, oft go astray." I had originally planned to put out a whole bunch of digests timed to go out at regular intervals while I was at Boskone, do a bunch more with timed releases when I returned and before I left on a business trip to California, and then pick up again when I returned today. However, mail problems, workload, sickness and a bunch of other reasons not only made it impossible to do as I planned but also to make any arrangements whatsoever to have someone else do the digest while I was gone. So much for planning. Anyway, I am back now and I will be putting out digests with a vengeance. I will try and keep it down to about 3 per day but you may see more as I try to get out all the queued messages (about 400) and keep up with the new ones coming in. For those of you I saw at Boskone, it was fun! If anyone is going to Lunacon, look for me. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 87 14:53 EST From: Subject: Star Trek Movie Poll Results Greetings and Salutations! Here are the results and comments collected from the Star Trek Movie Poll. STII TWoK wins by a landslide. There were six vote for STII and only one for STIV. While I'm not convinced that we don't have a "Dewey Wins", I'd make one comment about the comparison between the two movies. Personally, I think that there are three different (somewhat) types of Star Trek stories...One where Kirk and company manage to outsmart or bluff superior fire power bad guys (STII); one where we see people living and having fun in a time and place where many of us would like to be (STIV); and the love & romance stories (STIII sort of but not really). I'd say that what the people who like STII and not STIV missed was a bad guy who has working against Kirk and crews' best laid plans (like maybe a Klingon who figured out what was had happened and went back to mess Kirk and co. up). It's like the difference between playing chess against a computer or against someone who has been giving your ego a hard time recently. For STV? I vote for a love story. Something on the order of "City on the Edge of Forever". So here is what the "voters" had to say about the ST Movies. From: weltyc%cieunix@CSV.RPI.EDU (Christopher A. Welty) > I liked STII the best. I found it much more entertaining. I > don't view Star Trek as a comedy, although little humorous lines > can add to a story. STII had the most superior character > development of any movie or any episode (even Amok Time and Naked > Time), and it showed Kirk at his tactical best ("You are an > EXCELLENT tactician, Captain" said Khan to Kirk in Space Seed). > It blows the others away... From: dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (David Platt) > One vote for ST II "The Wrath of Khan". Good villain with a known > character and reasonable motives for holding a grudge; lots of > tension, conflict, and "how will they get out of this one?"; > interesting advancement of Kirk's character into a > formerly-untapped area (unknowing fatherhood); good use of special > effects; and last but not least, the guts to kill off one of the > series' major characters (albeit temporarily!) in a noble but not > overly sentimental fashion. From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM > STII:The Wrath of Khan -- drama, villainy, feel of the old ST > family back together again. Even the bridge crew has lines! From: Arthur L. Chin <@EDDIE.MIT.EDU:ARTHUR@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU> > is ST II, due to the following reasons: > 1) Best plot of the movies, and logical extension of Space Seed > 2) Kirsten Alley lets Saavik have some savvy, unlike Robin Curtis > 3) Spock dies > 4) Best special effects > 5) Best director > > There are many more, but I think this will suffice. From: JWHITE@MAINE (Jim White) > My order of appreciation is ; > ST II TWoK - Brings together Kirk and an historical ST figure. I > liked the battle, and strategy. The Balance of Terror > is my favorite episode, and TWoK was similar. > ST IV TVH - Is a close second. Great humor, good characterization, > and excellent entertainment. The plot is where it > fails. > ST III TSfS - Good but not great. > ST I TMP - Dullsville From: CS.KATHY@R20.UTEXAS.EDU (Kathy Guajardo) > Since you asked for our opinions here's mine. I vote for STAR > TREK: THE WRATH OF KHAN. It had everything, love, war, adventure, > good special effects, great story and most importantly a danger to > Kirk and the crew and why he was sentenced to harsh planet to live > or die by his own hand. It was great to see this story continued. > It was also a movie and story that could stand on its own merit. > How many fans explained the "Space Seed" to others who were not > familiar with Khan when they saw TWOK for the first time? I know > I did, and it only added to make TWOK a richer film than any of > others. > > Maybe for the next Star Trek picture they should continue another > episode and continue it. Lots of material there. From: <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@csnet-relay.arpa> (Eleanor Evans) > I vote for Star Trek IV. It was closest to the original spirit of > the series itself. It had the best interplay of characters, and > best reflected the original values of the series and its creator. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 14:16:42 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) Subject: Warp 8+ I have a theory about why the Enterprise had to stay at Warp 8 or below during the series. Since the series, we have found out that the Enterprise has inertial dampers. Once you get above Warp 8, a small variation in warp factor could force the dampers to make such a large correction that the ship couldn't stand it. Does anybody know for sure if this is the explanation? ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 23:48 EST From: WELTY RICHARD P Subject: Enterprise & the USN The first increment of this document (a summary of the first 5 ships) is completed (more or less). I will not be posting this to sf-lovers. If you are interested in receiving this via email, and have not yet let me know, please let me know. Rich Welty welty@ge-crd.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sun 1 Feb 87 11:29:04-CST From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: re: "origin of Saavik" Lisa writes: >Obviously, Saavik is a Vulcan who's had a sex change operation. >Didn't you wonder why Kirk called her "Mister"? `Mister' is a genderless address used in the Navy to refer to members below a certain rank. (which one, I forget) It has nothing to do with the sex of the addressee. Anyone out there in the navy want to back me up on this? Regards, Bill ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 31 Jan 1987 08:31:40-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: The first Star Trek novel [was re: transportation] > From: Derrick > ...In fact, the idea was used to provide the entire plot for James > Blish's excellent Star Trek novel "Spock Must Die!" (the first ST > novel ever, folks!)... Sorry, but Mack Reynolds has that honor. Whitman (a juvenile imprint that published a lot of tv tie-ins) released his STAR TREK: MISSION TO HORATIUS in 1968 --- two years before Bantam published SPOCK MUST DIE! These remained the only two original Trek novels (professionally published, that is) until 1976. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 87 09:20 CDT From: Get this D**N machine off my case! From: <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET> Subject: ST - reliving the past >This does bring up the interesting question of what happens when >they again get to the point of having to start the engines again. >Or is it not their destiny to have that happen? Or is it and are >they really stuck in an infinite loop somewhere? Or has someone >already discussed this on the net and I'm just making a fool of >myself???... As I recall, at the end of that episode, they have three days to live again, not to live OVER again. Kirk says, "...fortunately, not the same three days..." (or something like that). They still have the data they recorded about the planet's breakup, so they have finished their mission here and can head on about their business. Eleanor evans%ngstl1%ti-eg ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 87 04:40:51 GMT From: MIQ@PSUVMB.BITNET Subject: Re: Warp 8+ ST801179@BROWNVM.BITNET says: >I have a theory about why the Enterprise had to stay at Warp 8 or >below during the series. Since the series, we have found out that >the Enterprise has inertial dampers. Once you get above Warp 8, a >small variation in warp factor could force the dampers to make such >a large correction that the ship couldn't stand it. Does anybody >know for sure if this is the explanation? The explanation I generally heard is that the engines just can't take the stress of providing warp 8+ speeds. Above warp 6, they're straining and heating a lot; warp 8 is probably the upper limit without an immediate burn-out. James D. Maloy The Pennsylvania State University Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL UUCP : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 87 17:08:04 PST From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA Subject: Star Trek I wish to add my voice that STII has so far been the best of the four ST movies so far. I kind of think they "made" STIV simply because it was forseen that nothing more could come of it. Or they ran out of good ideas. Why not milk the ST fans one more time.... Al ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 87 8:41:17 EST From: Joel B Levin Subject: Star Trek 0: "The Cage" I rented "The Cage" a few weekends ago, and am finally getting around to posting a few comments. As is probably well known, it has been issued with the parts used in "Menagerie" printed in color, with the parts that had to be restored from the original pilot in black and white, presumably because no color print of the entire pilot remains. In addition, Gene Roddenberry opens and closes the tape with some history and interesting anecdotes (most of which was not new to me, except I finally learned, from one who should know, how to pronounce 'Majel'). My comments are not in any special order. They are also pretty random in content -- just things I noticed or wondered about. First, I didn't remember some of the parts in color from "Menagerie"; this could be because I saw it on broadcast TV, so it was probably missing pieces. But there were parts in black and white which I did remember having seen, so I conclude that the color vs. black and white distinction should be taken with a grain of salt. In the pilot, passage of time (for the interstellar trip to Talos IV to rescue the 'survivors') was explicitly depicted by a montage of the Enterprise flying through space with the Courage theme playing (in the foreground?). This was an interesting idea which did not survive into the series, for good reason in my opinion. A very small role was that of transporter officer. I don't know who played him, but the voice sounded exactly like the voice on the "Mission Impossible" tapes ("... will self destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim!"). Anyone know who played this part? Or who did the MI voice? As has been noted, the voice of the 'Keeper' was redubbed by a new actor for "Menagerie". The voice heard on the black and white parts is quite different. I think I like the new voice better, but if I hadn't seen "Menagerie" before, the original voice would not have ruined the episode for me. I suppose that the original actor was not available for the additional 'Keeper' lines in "Menagerie," so they had the new one redo him. Spock's character is in many ways quite different in the Kirk era, in part I suppose because he took on some of the characteristics of 'Number One,' who disappeared after "The Cage". However, his two lines about the Enterprise being swatted as one might at a fly were, I thought, particularly reminiscent of the modern Spock. (SPOILER, maybe) One question I always had when watching "Menagerie" concerned the ending, where Pike is beamed down to Talos IV and is seen on the viewscreen walking away with the girl. It didn't fit in with what I had heard about "The Cage," and I always wondered if they had got Jeff Hunter and Susan Oliver back to film that one scene especially for "Menagerie". I now understand where that scene came from in "The Cage," though its significance there is rather different. Nothing special had to be done for "Menagerie" after all. I hope I wasn't too long winded. Comments welcome. JBL ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 87 17:36:02 GMT From: ems!adam@rutgers.edu (Mark L. Baum) Subject: Re: Star Trek 0: "The Cage" levin@cc5.bbn.com writes: >First, I didn't remember some of the parts in color from >"Menagerie"; this could be because I saw it on broadcast TV, so it >was probably missing pieces. But there were parts in black and >white which I did remember having seen, so I conclude that the >color vs. black and white distinction should be taken with a grain >of salt. No, it simply needs a little more explanation. Gene Roddenberry gave a lecture in my area last summer, and he ended it by showing his uncut black- and-white print of "The Cage". I can assure you that the composite released by Paramount recently (episode 1, by the way) contains exactly the same material. When the color print was cut up and used in "The Menagerie", some parts of it were shrunk and displayed on a screen in the Enterprise's briefing room, where the trial was taking place. These would be the parts you remember seeing, but which remained black-and-white in the composite. (And I wish they had used the Keeper's original voice throughout. Oh well.) Mark Baum ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 87 14:54:55 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: "origin of Saavik" From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU >Lisa writes: >>Obviously, Saavik is a Vulcan who's had a sex change operation. >>Didn't you wonder why Kirk called her "Mister"? > >`Mister' is a genderless address used in the Navy to refer to >members below a certain rank. (which one, I forget) It has nothing >to do with the sex of the addressee. Anyone out there in the navy >want to back me up on this? Strange I thought it was only used to refer to officers of lower rank than Captain by other officers. Seamen were/are known solely by their surname and they addressed an officer by his title, or Mister if he was a midshipman. Above the rank of Lieutenant Officers were/are referred to by there rank (Unless, of course Titles such as Lord were also applicable ) Piers Cawley ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Mar 87 0849-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #50 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 4 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 50 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Asimov (3 msgs) & Bester & Chalker & Duane (4 msgs) & Geis & Harrison & Kay (2 msgs) & Vance ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 09 Feb 87 00:48:02 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1) From: Ian_Nottage Subject: Re: Hitchhikers. The only problem with Adams treatment was that while he was writing the original version the story changed in a subtle manner. When I first heard the radio show I was impressed, especially by the BBC SFX Dept., but the book and the TV series were not too faithful. Perhaps this is because, like the Goon Show, HH was written on a week to week basis, and therefore DA cannot be expected to be consistent. Or can he? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 87 17:24:43 EST From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa Subject: MSG 219, Dani Zweig OK, I'll confess total ignorance-- who *was* Hari Seldon ? The implication that "everybody knows that one" has definitely hit the curiosity switch. Regards, Dave Wegener ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 87 19:30:04 GMT From: ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (E.Carpenter) Subject: Re: MSG 219, Dani Zweig Hari Seldon- from Issac Asimov's "Foundation" series. He was basicly the planner/designer/psychometrician who charted the tendency of humanity in the future and found that the Foundation(s) were needed to prevent many centuries of war, death, and needless destuction ( as well as minor things like the fall of galactic civilization :-) ). Best details on Hari are probably in "Foundation", the first book in the series. (Wasn't there a short story that Asimov did earlier which used Hari as the prime figure? So many stories.... I'm losing track of what I've read!) Eric Carpenter ucdavis!deneb!ccs006 ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 87 01:23:01 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Hari Seldon If you don't know who Hari Seldon was then you probably haven't read "Foundation", by Isaac Asimov. If you haven't read "Foundation" then you are probably not part of the science fiction subculture. (Please! No arguments about whether there is such a thing.) A number of people have posted messages of the form "you told me that xxxx was a must-read classic and I read it and.....". There's a problem. When someone new to the genre asks me for recommendations, I'm reluctant to point out the latest flash in the pan. I'd rather point to the books which introduced me to the genre and which formed the genre as we know it today. Books by Asimov and Heinlein and Van Vogt, for example. But these books are in many ways old hat today, even for people who don't read science fiction, precisely because of their own successes in molding our tastes, expectations and sophistication. Worse, they were written for an audience with different myths and conventions. Today's reader tends not to be impressed by weapons which are powered by radium, by heroes with a look of eagles, by the triumph of a previous generation's version of the American way. Those of us who read these books years ago (or, let's admit it, as teens) tend still to enjoy them. In part this is because of their emotional and nostalgic overlay. In part this is because one approaches a books that was written decades or centuries ago with a different mindset than one approaches a new book. (Certainly the new books of these old-school authors are getting a cooler reception than their old ones. There may be another factor here: It is impossible. today, to write the kind of book that was being written thirty or fifty years ago unselfconsciously.) So. Hari Seldon is a pivotal figure (though he appears, in the flesh, only at the start) in Isaac Asimov's classic "Foundation" trilogy. It's a great trilogy; read it. If you read it and can't figure out what the fuss is about, I refer you to another of Asimov's books: "Before the Golden Age". Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 87 20:54:46 GMT From: loral!dml@rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) Subject: Re: The Stars My Destination halloran@unirot.UUCP (Bob Halloran) writes: >twomey@sunybcs.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes: >> 5.I read a story where people would teleport themselves by >> "jaunting". The method was discovered by some research >> doctor in his lab. ...unaware that the frontier of the mind had been opened near the end of the 23rd century when a researcher named Jaunte set fire to his bench and himself (accidentally) and let out a yell for help with particular reference to a fire extinguisher. Who so surprised Jaunte and his colleagues to find him alongside said extinguisher, seventy feet removed from his lab bench. They put Jaunte out and went into the whys and wherefores of his instantaneous seventy-foot journey. .... >The story is the semi-classic 'The Stars My Destination' by Alfred STRIKE the "semi-"! >Bester. Protagonist is Gully Foyle. He was the only survivor of a >space freighter wreck in the asteroid belt and apparently managed >to space-jaunt to a nearby inhabited asteroid. Nope, he fixed one of the Nomad's four engines and fired it up. He happened to pass by the Sargasso Asteroid, and the Scientific People caught the ship. Regis Sheffield is the one who tells him about the space-jaunte (Foyle: "I should have known. Sheffield the arch-patriot, an O.S. agent.") It went something like this: (Sheffield first) "No, the Nomad was too far from the major spacelanes. We took you six hundred thousand miles sunward and set you adrift. There you were, your suit lights blinking, mumbling for help on every waveband. Then you were gone. The next thing we know, you show up on the Nomad." "Huh?" "Man, you space-jaunted! You were patched up and delirious, but you jaunted six hundred thousand miles back to the wreck of the Nomad. We don't know how you did it, but we'll find out." >His accomplishing this led to his being pursued by various >corporate entities, Actually, it was the Outer Satellites spy network that was after him for that. Presteign, Dagenham and Y'ang-Yeovil were after him for something quite different. >while he was after revenge on his employers for one of their ships >passing him by in the wreck despite his signal flares, etc. Yeah. Vorga. Vorga-T:1339, registry Terra, owner Presteign. Eventually (with some help) he smartens up, stops trying to destroy the ship and starts hunting down the captain. That's when the story gets interesting! For the poster who couldn't quite remember the three words to keep in mind for a successful jaunte, recall Robin Wednesbury and her jaunte class for brain-damage cases: "L-E-S, gentlemen. Remember that. Location. Elevation. Situation." Definitely one of my favorite books. First place is a constant battle between "The Stars My Destination", "Re-Birth", and "Stardance". BUT >|-( I loaned out my last copy, it never came back, and the book is out of print AGAIN. Double >|-(. Dave Lewis Loral Instrumentation San Diego loral!dml ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 18:38:57 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths dennisg@fritz.UUCP (Dennis Griesser) writes: >ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall) writes: >>One more note on teleportation. This comes from the Soul Rider >>series by Jack Chalker. He has a system where teleportation is >>done by supercomputers analyzing the atomic structure of the >>object to be teleported and then reproducing it at the other end >>out of a primal energy field called "flux". >Yes, I remember this too. Nice series of books, but Chalker does >tend to get carried away on some topics (like sex). The way he tells it, it sounds like Tor books can't get enough of sex in the books he does for them. Sort of an 'X' rating, an 'R' rating for his Del Rey books (who wouldn't accept the stuff he does for Tor), and a 'PG' rating for his "G.O.D., Inc." series. (I think that's Berkeley/ Putnam). The "Well of Souls" series was his best. He won't come out and say it, but I have the transcript of a conversation where he states that "Midnight at the Well of Souls" is the book he'd like most to see on film. His least favorite book is "Web of the Chozen". He says he wrote it on a dare to see if he could write a sellable book in less than a month. But I thought "The Messiah Choice" was his worst - too much like the "Soul Rider" series. ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Feb 87 15:23:00 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) Subject: Thieve's World Someone commented about the stories in books 7+8 getting pessimistic...How about Diane Duane's story where the two goddesses and the dog have to go into the underworld with Ischade to bargain for their lover's soul, and then find out that Hell isn't a bad as it was cranked up to be? I think this one was in 7 (I really should go back and re-read these....) st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Feb 87 15:17:41 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) Subject: Diane Duane What is this cartoon series that you people are talking about? Is it on in America/Saturday mornings/etc.? Also I was under the impression that Bluejay dropped the Middle Kingdoms series quite some time ago, and it was switched to Tor, which got a new introduction for TDiF from DED. Also, don't forget about DEEP WIZARDRY, the sequel to SYWtBaW, which is still in hardcover. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 87 18:11:22 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: New Door-Into_Fire? I have the original version of Duane's "The Door into Fire", and I'm told that the current edition contains some changes. Am I missing anything significant if I stick to the old one, or should I runoutandbuy? Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 87 21:50 EDT From: Andrew Sigel Subject: Diane Duane As promised, a follow-up on the status of future Diane Duane novels: "Wizards at Large", the third Kit/Nita novel, is currently being cut to editorial specifications, and should be out in spring of 1988. "The Door Into Sunset" is being written, and should be done this spring sometime. Anticipated publication is therefore 1988; the publisher is Tor. Given that Tor has a large inventory due to the Bluejay breakup, it may be late 1988. Diane was married at Boskone this weekend to Peter Morwood, whose trilogy "The Book of Years" is just being published by DAW; the first volume, entitled "The Horse Lord", was originally released in Britain in 1983, and came out here a little under two months ago. The second should be out in June of this year, and the final volume sometime next winter. Andrew Sigel sigel@cs.umass.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 87 22:35:22 PST From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Geis is back This was, of course, expected, but Dick Geis has returned from retirement again. Science Fiction Review (and his cohort, Alter Ego) are still retired, but he's decided to expand his personalzine Naked Id into a full fledged reviewzine called "Controversy in Review." This zine will look at not only Science Fiction, but politics and anything else Geis finds interesting. Geis is always someone to watch. You won't always agree with him, but he makes you think. It also turns out he can't not publish a magazine. If you're interested in Controversy in Review, it is bi-monthly, from P.O. Box 11408, Portland, OR. 97211. chuq ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 87 14:52:54 GMT From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat The Stainless Steel Rat books are, in chronological order:- 1. The Stainless Steel Rat Is Born 2. The Stainless Steel Rat 3. The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge 4. The Stainless Steel Rat Saves The World 5. The Stainless Steel Rat Wants You! 6. The Stainless Steel Rat For President They were published in (almost) this order, except that (1) was published last. For introductory reading, try the ordering 2,3,4,any, as all the main characters and gadgetry are introduced in those three books. Sorry I can't give any publishing details, but my collection is at home, and (obviously) they're all English editions anyway. Note that, as well as the board game that was originally in Ares, there is (over here anyway) an adventure game book called "You Can Be The Stainless Stell Rat!". This is similar in structure to all such books (e.g. "Warlock Of Firetop Mountain" from Steve Jackson), as you become Slippery Jim and undergo a series of hair-raising brushes with death :-) It captures the spirit of the books very well, and I think Harry Harrison helped write it. *Minor Spoiler* Um...well...let's say it isn't *too* difficult to complete successfully... As a sidenote, I started a (minor) discussion on the topic of a Rat film about a year ago, as me & my friends have often thought that it would make a *great* movie if only you could get a director/screenwriter/entire cast with the correct bizarre sense of humour. We could never think of anyone to play Slippery Jim, though, so I asked the net for suggestions. The best one (well I thought so) was Bruce Willis of "Moonlighting" fame. Didn't get any good suggestions for an actress to play the delectable Angelina though... (Jane Seymour? Sigourney Weaver? Jamie Lee Curtis?) Anyway, the Rat books receive a hearty recommendation from me - I've read them all many times and they *still* make me laugh. David Allsopp ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 06:45:21 GMT From: bogstad@brl-smoke.ARPA (William Bogstad ) Subject: Re: The Summer Tree mschuck@watdcsu.UUCP ( SD) writes: >Has the book _The_Summer_Tree_ by Guy Gavriel Kay been heard of out >there? It is a Tolkien-esque fantasy which (in my opinion anyway) >is one of the best fantasies ever written. Yes, it has been sighted here. I picked up a copy a couple of months ago at a specialty SF/Fantasy bookstore. I don't read much fantasy, but the proprietor recommended it to me when I was in a strange mood. I enjoyed it a lot and have been watching to see if the other volumes ever show up. Do you know if Volume 2 is out in paperback or just hardcover? Bill Bogstad bogstad@hopkins-eecs-bravo.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 87 14:48:46 GMT From: ag4@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Anne Louise Gockel) Subject: _Summer Tree_ Someone recently spoke highly of the book _The Summer Tree_, the first of a trilogy. I just noticed that all three books are listed in the current SFBC (Sci Fi Book Club) notice. alg ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 87 17:03:39 GMT From: celerity!jjw@rutgers.edu (Jim ) Subject: Re: Jack Vance's Demon Princes >and incidentally I recommend the books highly, I think they are >some of the best SF around. I also enjoyed these books. I would like to see one more book. I think Jack Vance has an opportunity to write a truly great novel with a final sequel. Consider: here is a man (Kirth Gersen) whose entire life from childhood has been built around revenge. He has amassed a fortune just for the purpose of carrying out the mission of revenge. He has shunned friendships and love because they could stand in they way. Now he has completed his task and all the "Demon Princes" have been destroyed. What does this person do now? Can he really do good with his fortune? Can he now really make friendships and experience love? I suspect not. He might even become like the evil "Demon Princes" he destroyed. In any case, I would like to see a novel which examines these questions and shows the struggle of Kirth Gersen to rebuild his life. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Mar 87 0918-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #51 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 4 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 51 Today's Topics: Films - War Games (3 msgs) & Gor & Star Fighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 28 Jan 87 15:59:41-EST From: eric (wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@weslyan.bitnet) Subject: War Games I don't think the question "Can you really reach the military through a public phone line" is relevant. In the movie, at the first meeting of the Big Brass to figure out what happened, the funny looking bald programmer guy states, quite emphatically, "The Phone Company screwed up !" Truly this statement transcends the realm of Science Fiction ..... eric j simon wesleyan university wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 87 19:09:24 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper Subject: Re: WAR GAMES (was about Hogan) mouse@mcgill-vision.UUCP writes: >leeper@mtgzz.UUCP writes: >> Last time I watched this film I wrote down what I thought were >> errors and absurdities as they came up in the film. I ended up >> with exactly one for every two minutes of screen time. > So, don't keep us wondering....what were they? Sounds > interesting! I hate to do this! I just scrawled them on paper while watching the film last time. Evelyn typed them in, with some typos and published them in the AT&T science fiction club notice, with some understandable typos. I am not sure what a number of the comments meant. I am just afraid that I will be embroiled in long discussions about whether these really are absurdities. I will tell you in advance, I am publishing the list, but I really don't want to discuss it and I reserve the right to ignore replies. Here then is the list. Make of it what you can. 1. A thump shouldn't reset the alarm 2. WOPR is a stupid-looking machine with a stupid name 3. WOPR wasn't designed to replace humans 4. Symbiosis is not why nitrogen nodules stick to plant roots 5. The kid has an absurd array of computer equipment 6. The modem is too noisy 7. The terminal is running at over 9600 baud over phone lines, unlikely 8. Trying to call every number in four exchanges is infeasible time wise 9. No system gives you help BEFORE login 10. No system gives you information before you've logged in 11. You can't use a backdoor to get around data encryption 12. NORAD would monitor the false login attempts 13. After logging in, he wouldn't get data that fast 14. Computers cannot converse in such fluent English 15. The boy couldn't build such a voice box 16. The computer would not ask about checkers instead 17. Powering down the terminal wouldn't kill the screens at NORAD 18. WOPR wouldn't have been able to trace the call 19. WOPR wouldn't have an ACU for security reasons 20. After disconnecting the line, the terminal wouldn't keep running the game 21. They don't give tours of the war room among the consoles 22. WOPR wouldn't have an open line in Sunnyvale 23. WOPR wouldn't still be in use after 11 years 24. They couldn't have connected the boy to reservations made in the girl's name 25. The kid wouldn't be left alone with a computer terminal at NORAD 26. The NORAD administrator wouldn't have a voice box in his office 27. WOPR wouldn't have a will of its own 28. WOPR wouldn't have access to personnel files 29. The boy wouldn't be left alone a second time 30. The boy wouldn't know the inside of the circuitry 31. The lock would not operate by sound alone 32. The boy wouldn't just happen to also be a superior athlete 33. The air vents would not be unsecured at NORAD 34. The expert would have no trouble opening the door 35. The phone mouthpiece on a pay phone is not removable 36. Pay telephones cannot be bypassed with a conductor anymore 37. WOPR would not be making the boy's moves for him in the game 38. They are F-15's instead of F-16's 39. The computer scientist would not be trying to teach a computer futility 40. Intelligence would not just be telling about bombers projecting radar images 41. They wouldn't be able to run the jeep through a sealed gate 42. They wouldn't be allowed to just run through the front door at DEFCON 2 43. Falken can't assume that the enemy won't attack 44. WOPR would not wipe out the password file as a means of security 45. One level entry, echoed password doesn't seem to be in effect anymore 46. It would be impossible to predict exactly when launch codes will be guessed 47. WOPR wouldn't let them run games without a login 48. WOPR wouldn't know it had four correct digits 49. Tictactoe is a poor way to demonstrate the principle to the computer 50. Computers do not explode when they overload 51. WOPR would not start playing out scenarios at launch time 52. WOPR would have figured out long ago that it couldn't win 53. Winning would not be well-defined and binary 54. WOPR wouldn't say "the only way to win is not to play" 55. WOPR doesn't use natural strategy 56. The boy has antiquated equipment ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 87 19:40:28 GMT From: csun!aeusesef@rutgers.edu (Sean Eric Fagan) Subject: Re: WarGames leeper@mtgzz.UUCP writes: > 1. A thump shouldn't reset the alarm > 2. WOPR is a stupid-looking machine with a stupid name True, so true. > 3. WOPR wasn't designed to replace humans No, but the humans had a high probability of screwing up (in the eyes of the military), so this was a solution (stupid, I agree). > 4. Symbiosis is not why nitrogen nodules stick to plant roots Idiocy, just idiocy. > 5. The kid has an absurd array of computer equipment > 6. The modem is too noisy > 7. The terminal is running at over 9600 baud over phone lines, > unlikely I laughed at these. > 8. Trying to call every number in four exchanges is infeasible > timewise But many people do it (I have several times). > 9. No system gives you help BEFORE login > 10. No system gives you information before you've logged in Yeah, but this is the *military* (8-)). > 11. You can't use a backdoor to get around data encryption Supposedly, the backdoor would take care of that too. > 12. NORAD would monitor the false login attempts I should hope so. I guess they do now ;-) > 13. After logging in, he wouldn't get data that fast > 14. Computers cannot converse in such fluent English The computer was supposed to be at least semi-artifically intelligent. More below. > 15. The boy couldn't build such a voice box Well, he could, but a) it wouldn't sound like that, and b) it wouldn't look like that. > 16. The computer would not ask about checkers instead It thought the boy was the creator, and enjoyed playing chess (not checkers) with him. > 17. Powering down the terminal wouldn't kill the screens at NORAD No, but the computer was awfully upset, I think, and may have gone into "shock" for long time (maybe even milliseconds 8-)). > 18. WOPR wouldn't have been able to trace the call Why not? They were on long enough, and the military traced it also. I am sure they used computers, and WOPR (aka Joshua) was probably hooked up to those. > 19. WOPR wouldn't have an ACU for security reasons > 20. After disconnecting the line, the terminal wouldn't keep > running the game Sure it would. Terminals and programs are not connected. Not every system has to have the equivalent of SIGHUP (although it does make things nicer). > 21. They don't give tours of the war room among the consoles Rather fun, that, eh? > 22. WOPR wouldn't have an open line in Sunnyvale That was a screw up with the phone company!! The special lines the military were using (and they must use them, either that or broadcast all the information they need to run WOPR). > 23. WOPR wouldn't still be in use after 11 years Why not? We have old Cybers still running? Anyway, no one ever said that the machine was eleven years old, only that Professor .* had been working on it for eleven years. (If I remember correctly, he left the project only a couple of years before the movie took place). > 24. They couldn't have connected the boy to reservations made in > the girl's name I never was able to understand that. Maybe they did a check of all the numbers the kid had dialed (since he was probably using some sort of black box, this might either be easy or difficult, depending on the model), looked into all the transactions, and then made a connection. > 25. The kid wouldn't be left alone with a computer terminal at > NORAD They didn't think he would be able to do anything. > 26. The NORAD administrator wouldn't have a voice box in his > office Didn't you know? All VT999 terminals (like the one in his office) have built in voice synthesizers! 8-) > 27. WOPR wouldn't have a will of its own The original aim of the project was to create a program that could learn from its mistakes. This is a *long* way to AI (remember, this was supposed to be for any game you could teach the computer, and you could also teach it English this way). Obviously, they *did* reach true AI at some point, and the "Joshua" backdoor woke it up (it was probably lonely for attention, like a little puppy). > 28. WOPR wouldn't have access to personnel files Again, why not? It was definitely linked up to other computers, and maybe even used NFS (8-)), so it could look at the files. In its case, personnel files of some type were necessary, as it needed to know how many people were at which base, and what the people could do (necessary war game information). > 29. The boy wouldn't be left alone a second time He was locked up! > 30. The boy wouldn't know the inside of the circuitry No, but even *I* could have figured it out under these circumstances (adrenalin rush and all that). > 31. The lock would not operate by sound alone No, no, no. Remember, you can get a push-button pad, just like the one there, and either hook it up to wires or speakers. The earphone merely reconverted it back to electric signals. (He had the microphone hooked up to the circuitry, remember). I do doubt that it could work that well, however. > 32. The boy wouldn't just happen to also be a superior athlete Huh? I missed something? He was definitely *not* an athlete. But remember, his was also terrified, and fear does wonderful things to the human body. > 33. The air vents would not be unsecured at NORAD Normally, everyone in there was *supposed* to be there, so that would not be a major problem ('tis curious, though). > 34. The expert would have no trouble opening the door The door computer was short-circuited, though. They had to bypass it to open it, and that *could* be a problem under some circumstances. > 35. The phone mouthpiece on a pay phone is not removable > 36. Pay telephones cannot be bypassed with a conductor anymore That was an *old* phone, out on a *rural* dirt road, probably in some *small* town, so who knows, it might work. > 37. WOPR would not be making the boy's moves for him in the game It was assuming that he would be making certain moves, based on the Professor's games with it. > 38. They are F-15's instead of F-16's Don't remember it, not much of a problem. > 39. The computer scientist would not be trying to teach a > computer futility Why not? That is part of common sense, another major portion of intelligence. At that point, I think I would be. > 40. Intelligence would not just be telling about bombers > projecting radar images Just because the people there are highly placed, doesn't mean that they get or retain all information there is. They may not have been told because it was new information, being followed up, or they may have forgotten. > 41. They wouldn't be able to run the jeep through a sealed gate Jeeps are pretty sturdy, and *can* run through fences. If it had a charge, on the other hand... > 42. They wouldn't be allowed to just run through the front door > at DEFCON 2 They were probably in a state of panic, and the lady had yelled, "I vouch for them," or something like that. > 43. Falken can't assume that the enemy won't attack *What* enemy? He was pretty sure it was a simulation, and *common sense* usually says that the enemy won't attack first unless there are pretty good odds of winning, or the leaders are insane. Since the odds were only about even, or not even that good, the enemy probably had *not* initiated conflict. > 44. WOPR would not wipe out the password file as a means of > security Why not? Sounds like a great way to make sure nobody disturbs you when you need all the processing power you can get. > 45. One level entry, echoed password doesn't seem to be in > effect anymore Of course not? Maybe on private terminals, but on the large consoles echoing would be a bad idea. > 46. It would be impossible to predict exactly when launch codes > will be guessed Not exactly, but "within" a certain time. > 47. WOPR wouldn't let them run games without a login Probably backup security, in case /etc/passwd (8-)) was deleted. > 48. WOPR wouldn't know it had four correct digits I did think that was stupid. > 49. Tictactoe is a poor way to demonstrate the principle to the > computer It was the only one they had. > 50. Computers do not explode when they overload It had a fit of frustration, and did the equivilent of pounding its fists: sending a circuit overload. > 51. WOPR would not start playing out scenarios at launch time > 52. WOPR would have figured out long ago that it couldn't win > 53. Winning would not be well-defined and binary > 54. WOPR wouldn't say "the only way to win is not to play" All most likely very true (the last, however is somewhat debatable, haven't we been thinking the same thing about nuclear attacks for the past decade or two?). > 55. WOPR doesn't use natural strategy It had to base its plans on what it thought the enemy would do. To win, there are only so many differenct possibilities, none of which seemed to result in a viable ending. > 56. The boy has antiquated equipment He was a *kid*, getting whatever he could for as little as possible. Probably some school sold of their IMSAI (my high school had one last time I checked, they were thinking about giving it away). For all of its faults, I *did* enjoy the movie. Sean Fagan Computer Center CSUN 18111 Nordhoff St. Northridge, CA 91330 aeusesef@csun.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: Wed 4 Feb 87 09:12:59-PST From: Walter Chapman Subject: Oh My God! GOR Movies A friend of mine showed me a blurb in the March issue of Playboy that makes mention that there are two GOR movies in production from Cannon Films (Golan-Globus Productions). It's probably one of those cases where enough is filmed at one time to make two movies (like Richard Chamberlain's Quartermain flicks). Anyway, the titles are _GOR_ and _OUTLAW OF GOR_. It (these?) star Oliver Reed, Jack Palance, Urbano Barberini and Rebecca Ferratti (Miss June 1986) as Talena. Probably will be out in video REAL fast but Cannon will probably consider these as "A" titles. Walter Chapman SRI Int'l. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 19:08:01 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Star Fighter jao@valid.UUCP writes: >... failed science fiction produced for non sf-lovers. This >usually be a movie (such as "The Star Fighter") I must disagree with this assessment. I thought "Star Fighter" was not 'failed science fiction produced for non sf-lovers', but a *great* parody of science fiction movies. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Ashton-Tate 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Mar 87 0937-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #52 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 4 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 52 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker (4 msgs) & Herbert (6 msgs) & Laumer (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Feb 87 08:05:03 PST (Friday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books Tim Maroney writes: >This one of the few redeeming features to appear in some of Jack >Chalker, at least in his best work, the Well World stories. These >are highly entertaining by virtue of Chalker's not-yet-dry >imagination and as a result of the scale of the conceptions, the >feeling of putting the cosmos in reach. You might want to try >"Midnight at the Well of Souls" and read the rest if you like it. *********** Generalized Diffuse Spoiler Possible Here ************ Unfortunately, Jack Chalker's brand of SF seems to have only one trick as far as I can tell. His books all seem to follow the same formula: 1. Invent an odd universe. 2. Produce an omnipotent and incomprehensible technology. 3. Use that technology to irrevocably alter characters. 4. Describe the fallout from the alteration. 5. When this has been made excruciatingly boring, tell us that the changes are really NOT irrevocable. 6. repeat steps 2-6 ad infinitum. While this may be a sure algorithm for books which sell, I had hoped for something a little more. Maybe an interesting puzzle or two, or a neat surprise or two on how the technology can be used for more ordinary events. His books are very good, but I would hardly hold them up as the archetypal 'not-yet-dry' imagination. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 87 18:43:17 GMT From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >This one of the few redeeming features to appear in some of Jack >Chalker, at least in his best work, the Well World stories. Well-World was conceived beyond Chalker's ability to execute. It reads far too much like a gaming scenario to me. Now, the flux and anchor books strike me as "big" stories, and well executed. David Dyer-Bennet usenet: ...viper!ddb Fidonet: Sysop of Fido 14/341 (612) 721-8967 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 87 04:24:39 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes: >Unfortunately, Jack Chalker's brand of SF seems to have only one >trick as far as I can tell. His books all seem to follow the same >formula: > 1. Invent an odd universe. > 2. Produce an omnipotent and incomprehensible technology. > 3. Use that technology to irrevocably alter characters. > 4. Describe the fallout from the alteration. > 5. When this has been made excruciatingly boring, tell us > that the changes are really NOT irrevocable. > 6. repeat steps 2-6 ad infinitum. >While this may be a sure algorithm for books which sell, I had >hoped for something a little more. Maybe an interesting puzzle or >two, or a neat surprise or two on how the technology can be used >for more ordinary events. His books are very good, but I would >hardly hold them up as the archetypal 'not-yet-dry' imagination. It all depends on what period you're talking about. When I said his imagination was not yet dry in reference to the Well World books, I meant that it hadn't run dry when he wrote those books, but that it had later. You are quite right that many of his later novels amount to churned-out rehashes of the same themes of character transformation, and I would not recommend them for that reason. But in such earlier novels as "Midnight at the Well of Souls", "A War of Shadows", and "Or the Devil Will Drag You Under" (three very dissimilar books), his imagination is fresh, the ground previously untilled, the characters often trite but rarely flat, the plots engaging, and in general the reading experience quite pleasant if scarcely profound. I also found his "Four Lords of the Diamond" series pleasing, and to a lesser extent the "Soul Rider" trilogy. One consistency running through most of Chalker's stories involving space is the Confederacy, an unusual sort of "Galactic Empire". The citizens have been genetically engineered to be pleasant, beautiful, and intelligent, life is happy and predictable, and life is, well, just sort of missing something. But no one knows this except frontier explorers, who have some rather unfunny mental problems of their own, and Bradbury-style lamentations or melodramatic exposes of the rotten core of the society are absent. Dystopia has come not through a bang or even a whimper, but simply through gradual loss of variety, imperceptible in any generation. It will probably stay that way once it gets there, because no one notices. Overall I find it a much more disquieting vision of the future than any number of evil empires brought down by a few good men or stories about zombies awakening in a future without horror novels. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 87 02:22:23 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Chalker and Time--Again This isn't the first time he's made this mistake. **Very Mild Spoiler** In Labyrinth of Dreams, he has a large number of 'parallel' universes, all created at the time of the big bang. The ones further from the 'center' run more quickly. The characters spend a year there and only a few days have passed at home. Well, if our universe is 20 billion years old, to pick a number, that one should be 2 trillion years old! That world wouldn't make a very plausible parallel. Chalker seems to assume that one universe will run a hundred times as fast as another -- starting yesterday. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 87 20:02:16 GMT From: reed!mirth@rutgers.edu (The Reedmage) Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >Herbert, as always, served a cold dish with characters as flat as >halibuts, their heads removed, arranged in a peculiarly shallow and >static fashion. The ideas involved are familiar: nomadic >lifetsyles, corrupt merchant princes, alien life forms, scientific >meditators who compute or stop their metabolism at will. None was >ever particularly inspiring by itself, and nothing redeems them >from the usual melange in this book. Not as always! As *usual*, yes, but the White Plague is an exception to Herbert's usual poor writing. I've read it twice now, and my second reading was no less enjoyable than the first. I still despise the Dune books, though -- ALL the Dune books. I recommend to anybody _The White Plague_, as one of those frightening- because-it's-not-unbelievable-near-future-disaster books. Readable with well-developed characters and a believable world/situation. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 08:05:03 PST (Friday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books Dune discusses many issues which are not common in SF: The nature of belief and religion, and more important, the subtle and addictive effects of power and other things on an individual. Dune seemed to me to be a story dealing with various forms of addiction in relatively interesting ways. As such, it caught and held my attention with new ideas and new thoughts on what it means to be addicted to (ideas, honor, power, drugs, physical things, money, youth, intrigue), and how crippling such addictions could be no matter what the benefits they offer. Each of these sorts of addiction is examined in Dune. Potent thoughts, it seems to me, well worth Hugo/Nebula award status. The rest of the series never reached that status, unfortunately. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 17:14:15 GMT From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alex B. Granok) Subject: Other Herbert Works Many people seem to overlook Frank Herbert's other works in favor of his _Dune_ hexology (hexology?). Recently, I read a collection of some older and newer short stories of his in a book called _Eye_. I found most of them pretty interesting. It was even better considering that it may very well be Herbert's last published work (unless there is some "lost" work somewhere else).I wish that he were still around to continue writing. Some of his other novels that I have enjoyed are _Whipping Star_ _The Dosadi Experiment_(though not nearly as good as WS), _The Eyes of Heisenberg_(not a lot of action, but a rather chilling story, when you think about it) and _The Green Brain_(now this one was unusual). I would definitely recommend _Eye_ to any Herbert fans or non-Herbert fans. The style is quite different from that of _Dune_, and the stories read well. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 87 18:43:17 GMT From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >Herbert, as always, served a cold dish with characters as flat as >halibuts, their heads removed, arranged in a peculiarly shallow and >static fashion. Doesn't sound like we read the same book. Certainly tastes differ (I think Dune is one of the 5 best sf books ever) but I find it nearly impossible to recognize the book from your description; I found the characters to be the strongest part of the book. David Dyer-Bennet usenet: ...viper!ddb Fidonet: Sysop of Fido 14/341 (612) 721-8967 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 87 04:24:39 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes: >Dune discusses many issues which are not common in SF: The nature >of belief and religion, and more important, the subtle and >addictive effects of power and other things on an individual. Dune >seemed to me to be a story dealing with various forms of addiction >in relatively interesting ways. As such, it caught and held my >attention with new ideas and new thoughts on what it means to be >addicted to (ideas, honor, power, drugs, physical things, money, >youth, intrigue), and how crippling such addictions could be no >matter what the benefits they offer. Each of these sorts of >addiction is examined in Dune. Potent thoughts, it seems to me, >well worth Hugo/Nebula award status. The rest of the series never >reached that status, unfortunately. Dune's future medievalism is hardly new in science fiction; it is a rather trite staple of the genre. The idea of power addicts and monarchical power plays has been the backbone of more space operas than you can shake an inertial drive at. The religious structures seemed artificial and dry to me. What was it about them you found revealing and new? It is not, after all, enough simply to discuss something; one must have something in particular to say about it. You claim Herbert's themes are strong; very well then, what are they? Surely "power corrupts" and "it is easy to become obsessed with things" are not all there is to his ideas. You seem consistently to lean on Dune's supposedly provocative ideas to support its worth. But Dune is a novel, not a series of short essays. With flat characters, unengaging plot, dull settings, plodding style, and no consistent theme, it is impossible for a book to succeed as a novel. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 21:56:54 GMT From: wes@ukecc.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Subject: DUNE series The last two books in the Dune series are the equal of the first. "Heretics of Dune" and "Chapterhouse Dune" chronicle the results of Leto's Scattering of humanity, with the return of 'Honored Matres' > Read them! They bring the Dune series to a nice close, with room left for future volumes, should anyone have the guts to try. Wes Morgan UUCP: !cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!wes CSNET: wes@engr.uky.csnet BITNET: wes%ukecc.uucp@ukma ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 87 12:22:05 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Laumer's Retief series From: fluke!moriarty (Jeff Meyer) > Anyone read Keith Laumer's RETIEF books, about diplomat and cad > James Retief? Jan Strnad and Dennis Fujitake are doing it, and it > looks promising. I'm very much looking forward to the comic. I don't know how well Strnad will adapt the stories, but I think that Fujitake will be just right for the art. Keith Laumer's Retief stories are *very* funny (though it's very easy to o.d. on them). Basicly, Retief is the only person in the Corps Diplolomatique Terrestrienne (CDT) who has an inkling about how to deal with anyone, human or not. I'd say that they read about the same as, to use a comic book referent, Foglio's MYTH ADVENTURES or Templeton's STIG'S INFERNO on the chuckle-ometer. I recommend that you pick up the Retief collections with the earliest of the short stories. The later short stories and almost all of the novels aren't quite up to the quality of the earlier shorts. The Retief books have been packaged and re-packaged and re-re-packaged (mostly because of Jim Baen), but I'd say that the core Retief collection would be: RETIEF UNBOUND RETIEF AT LARGE RETIEF: DIPLOMAT-AT-ARMS (These are re-packagings of the collections ENVOY TO NEW WORLDS, GALACTIC DIPLOMAT, and RETIEF: AMBASSADOR TO SPACE, and the novel RETIEF'S RANSOM). The only other "essential" book would be the novel RETIEF'S WAR (the only really good Retief novel). I'm not sure exactly what's in print these days, if any of them are, so I'd suggest that you look in some used-bookstores for them. I'm not up to doing a full Retief bibliography right now, but if there's enough interest, I could probably have my arm twisted. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 16:25:54 GMT From: thumper!sdh@rutgers.edu (Retief of the CDT) Subject: Re: Laumer's Retief series > RETIEF UNBOUND RETIEF AT LARGE RETIEF: DIPLOMAT-AT-ARMS > > (These are re-packagings of the collections ENVOY TO NEW WORLDS, > GALACTIC DIPLOMAT, and RETIEF: AMBASSADOR TO SPACE, and the novel > RETIEF'S RANSOM). The only other "essential" book would be the > novel RETIEF'S WAR (the only really good Retief novel). I'm not > sure exactly what's in print these days, if any of them are, so > I'd suggest that you look in some used-bookstores for them. Just like to point out that there is a new Retief book, Retief in the Ruins. It is status quo for Retief. As far as sf is concerned, its not earth shattering, but merely entertaining. Also there is another book concerning the Bolo tanks entitled, Rogue Bolo that was released within the past year or two. For no particular reason I read every book by Keith Laumer that I could get my hands on. Two months and some 30 books later, I agree with the assertion that one can o.d. on Retief. In general, there were only a few books that I found especially interesting: the original Bolo novel, A Plague of Demons, The Star Chamber, and a couple others that the titles have slipped my mind. The rest are OK, good for reading if you have nothing else to do with your time, but not much else Steve Hawley bellcore!sdh ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Mar 87 0955-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #53 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 4 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 53 Today's Topics: Television - Lost in Space & Japanimation (6 msgs) & Blake's 7 (6 msgs) & Starman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Jan 87 12:55:30 GMT From: rayssd!gmp@rutgers.edu Subject: the Bloop converted to fuel? A friend of mine here at work insists that the Bloop (the chimp with Mickey Mouse ears) on TV's Lost_In_Space met its eventual end by being converted to deutronium as a result of one of Dr. Smith's schemes run afoul. I find this quite hard to believe, but I can't remember what happened to the Bloop, so can hardly claim he's wrong. He says this happened in the episode with deutronium drinking plants. Oh yeah, I forgot, there were about 15 episodes with fuel eating plants -- this is the one where Judy gets duplicated. Can anyone prove my buddy wrong? Greg Paris gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM {cbosgd,gatech,ihnp4,linus,mirror,uiucdcs}!rayssd!gmp ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 87 03:32:55 GMT From: lsuc!jimomura@rutgers.edu Subject: Robotech First, regarding music, I've heard that Minmei sings a more varied repetoire in the original Japanese version. This raises the question of who wrote the music in the North American version. I understand that the theme music was Harmony Gold's addition, as is some (most? all?) of the incidental music. Who wrote the music for Minmei's songs? Are they completely new for North America or are they just translations? I've been finding more Robotech paraphenalia lately. I just picked up "ROBOTECH The Role-Playing Game" by Kevin Siembieda. It's published by Palladium Books. ISBN 0-916211-21-5. This is a really good source book for Robotech information. It draws from many sources including Japanese books ("Memory Perfect" and "The Macross Guide Books"). It does bring to light some discrepancies. It's interesting that Tatsunoko did such a *good* job of maintaining reasonably consistent scale despite the inherent problems of working with such a difficult set of objects, but here's one error I spotted: Zentraedi personnel tend to be roughly 10X the size of humans. They might range from 40' to 50' (possibly to 60') in height. Miriya in particular doesn't seem to be particularly short. As a micronized Zentraedi she turns out to be 5' 10" according to the book. We see her get into her battle armour in one episode and it's clear that the armour is *not* close fitting and in fact her arms and legs do *not* actually fit into the arms and legs of the battle armour. Rather, she seems to be sitting inside the chest area. This makes some sense when you see the rest of the Zentraedi technology. When you see her getting into the armour, it's clearly in the order of about 2X her height. The book lists the height of the battle armour as 55'. This can't be right. It has to be more like 100'. That's just something that sticks out as a clear mistake. There are likely others. Cheers! Jim O. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 4 Feb 87 09:27:49-PST From: Walter Chapman Subject: MACROSS Movie A while back there was a mention of a MACROSS movie entitled _DO_YOU_ REMEMBER_LOVE_. Frequenting my local Japantown video store I have rented said movie (in Japanese, of course) and the Nihon folks that own the store says the title translates to _REMEMBER_MY_LOVE_ (or "Remember, My Love" [note comma]). Anyway, in Hi-Fi stereo the sound is terrific as well as some of MinMei's singing although comparing it to ROBOTECH is an insult to the movie. Characterization is quite different as well as uniforms and situations. I would recommend watching this film in the original Japanese since everyone now seems fairly informed as to the background of the series/film and therefore the film can be easily under- stood. Other animated recommendations: _ODIN_ and _DIRTY_PAIR:_AFFAIR_ OF_NOLANDIA_. Walter Chapman SRI Int'l. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 87 18:28:01 GMT From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Starbuck) Subject: Re: Robotech jimomura@lsuc.UUCP writes: > First, regarding music, I've heard that Minmei sings a more > varied repetoire in the original Japanese version. This raises > the question of who wrote the music in the North American version. > I understand that the theme music was Harmony Gold's addition, as > is some (most? all?) of the incidental music. Who wrote the music > for Minmei's songs? The music in Robotech is different than the one for Macross, et al. The incidental music in the MACROSS Videotape called BoobyTrap (released by Harmony Gold BEFORE they decided on changing Macross, Southern Corss, and Genesis Climber into RObotech) has the Original Incidental Music. > Are they completely new for North America or are they just > translations? Yes, she does sing more sings and they are better than the American ones. (With all due respect to Reba West who does a Fantastic job!) They are completely new as far as I know. BTW, in the Japanese Macross, Minmei sings MY BOYFRIEND IS A PILOT, something she mentions in Robotech but never sings. > I've been finding more Robotech paraphenalia lately. I just > picked up "ROBOTECH The Role-Playing Game" by Kevin Siembieda. > It's published by Palladium Books. ISBN 0-916211-21-5. Yes, I have it too. It is excellent! No more suffering through FASA's BATTLETECH trash! Everyone, Please Write Harmony Gold and Carl MAcek and tell them to release the Robotech Movie. Then write to your local stations (that show Robotech) and tell them to buy the Sentinals!! If no stations near you show Robotech then COMPLAIN!!!!! Stephen Pearl VOICE: (201)932-3465 US MAIL: LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903 UUCP: ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl ARPA: PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 87 03:14:26 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Re: Japanese and other Animation on Video > I saw the film originally as Nassica at the local C/FO > meeting and had the great fortune of seeing/hearing it with a > stereo system and we were able to get a distribution amp and five > headphones and the front row listened in FULL stereo! WOW! Strangely enough, if you get Nausicaa on laser disc, it's in MONO!!! The video is fantastic, but the sound is only good mono. > I then purchased the tape at my local B. Dalton store > (Warehouse also had it, but I get a discount at B. Dalton) because > I wanted a very good copy of the visulas and the soundtrack > (maybe). I wasn't displeased. It Was the tape in stereo? And did you buy Nausicaa or Warriors of the Wind? Ken Zarifes {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 87 03:10:08 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Re: MACROSS Movie From: Walter Chapman > A while back there was a mention of a MACROSS movie entitled > _DO_YOU_ REMEMBER_LOVE_. Frequenting my local Japantown video > store I have rented said movie (in Japanese, of course) and the > Nihon folks that own the store says the title translates to > _REMEMBER_MY_LOVE_ (or "Remember, My Love" [note comma]). Anyway, > in Hi-Fi stereo the sound is terrific Another translation I've seen is "Love: Do You Remember?". This is one of my favorite animated films. I agree with you that it should not be compared to Robotech. The Macross Movie is high class animation and filmmaking. Robotech is dreck. Ken Zarifes {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 87 04:16:12 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Re: Robotech > Are they completely new for North America or are they just > translations? They are completely new songs. Harmony Gold had problems with the Musicians Union. It seems that you can't import musical scores for a new TV show from another country without pissing off the union. They insist that American musicians/music writers write and perform the music (I don't know under which conditions this becomes true, but Harmony Gold thought that they were in a position where they had to redo all of the music.). > Yes, she does sing more sings and they are better than the > American ones. (With all due respect to Reba West who does a > Fantastic job!) I thought Reba West's "singing" was awful. Ken Zarifes {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 87 12:38:13 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1) From: Mell Subject: RE: Blakes Seven toys. Corgi produced a model of the ship in Blakes Seven (the one with the large green bulbous end). These were made available shortly after the U.S.S. Enterprise and Klingon Interceptor models were produced. It was also made in the much smaller 'matchbox' scale. This would have been about 10 years ago so availability would be a problem now I guess. ------------------------------ Date: 10 February 1987 08:24:11 CST From: U09862 at UICVM (Carlo N. Samson ) Subject: Death of "Blake's 7" I just saw the last episode of "Blake's 7" this weekend. Its really too bad that it was canceled--it was a very good show, just as good as "Doctor Who", in my opinion. So why *did* the Beeb axe "Blake's 7" in the first place, if not because of low ratings? About the episode it self: I found it hard to believe that everyone could have been so easily gunned down by the Federation troopers, especially since the Feds didn't seem to be such good shots in the previous episodes. I would have expected Soolin or Dayna to last a little longer, but even they were downed with a single shot. And I didn't think Avon would actually believe that Blake had gone over to the Federation; I was surprised when he shot Blake without giving him a chance to explain. But the last scene was quite memorable: Avon, surrounded by troopers, raises his gun and, with a final smile, pulls the trigger. I guess I'll just wait till Channel 11 reruns the series. Carlo Samson U09862@uicvm P.S. They should have used Slave more often, too. His groveling subservience made an excellent counterpoint to ORAC's superiority complex. They could've had more scenes like the one where Slave tries to interrupt ORAC to warn of the impending attack. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 87 19:17:19 GMT From: ee173wav@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU (Tod Kuykendall) Subject: Re: Death of "Blake's 7" From: U09862@UICVM (Carlo N. Samson) > I just saw the last episode of "Blake's 7" this weekend. Its > really too bad that it was canceled--it was a very good show, just > as good as "Doctor Who", in my opinion. So why *did* the Beeb axe > "Blake's 7" in the first place, if not because of low ratings? The original reasons are soomewhat unknown (at least to everyone I've talked to, but there was A LOT of pressure to bring the show back. Hence the final episode in which everyone dies...or do they? Blake obviously did, but more on that later. > About the episode it self: I found it hard to believe that > everyone could have been so easily gunned down by the Federation > troopers, especially since the Feds didn't seem to be such good > shots in the previous episodes. I would have expected Soolin or > Dayna to last a little longer, but even they were downed with a > single shot. And I didn't think Avon would actually believe that > Blake had gone over to the Federation; I was surprised when he > shot Blake without giving him a chance to explain. But the last > scene was quite memorable In actuallity there was a book published later (actually I think there were several, but one AUTHORIZED book) about the after events of that episode. Apparently the federation troops had orders (guess from who) to take them (esp. Avon) alive and they were only stunned, not killed. This goes for them all except Blake who agreed only to do the show if there was NO possibility to bring his character back, hence the blood and several large holes in his midsection. The other thing about it that he liked was the suggestion that Blake might have been a traitor (as Avon obviously thought) and that you really didn't know when it was all over.... > Avon, surrounded by troopers, raises his gun and, with a final > smile, pulls the trigger. One thing to say: "Breathless" I can find out the name of the book if you want me to, but I'm not even sure if you can find it this side of the sink. (Except maybe import/novelty bookstores....) ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 87 17:30:00 GMT From: leadsv!berg@rutgers.edu (Gail Berg) Subject: Re: Death of "Blake's 7" ee173wav@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU (Tod Kuykendall) writes: > In actuallity there was a book published later (actually I > think there were several, but one AUTHORIZED book) about the after > events of that episode. > > I can find out the name of the book if you want me to, but I'm not > even sure if you can find it this side of the sink. (Except maybe > import/novelty bookstores....) I picked up a copy of this book at a Dr. Who Con last year (Timecon '86 in San Jose, CA). So you might want to pick up a copy at the next Con. I understand there will be a Blake's 7 Con in Chicago (?) around the end of July 1987. Interesting story... If you want some spoilers, let me know and maybe I'll post a summary. Gail Berg P.O. Box 390010 Mountain View, CA 94039 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 01:16:25 GMT From: victoro@crash.CTS.COM (Dr. Snuggles) Subject: Re: Death of "Blake's 7" berg@leadsv.UUCP (Gail Berg) writes: >ee173wav@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU (Tod Kuykendall) writes: >> In actuallity there was a book published later (actually I >> think there were several, but one AUTHORIZED book) about the >> after events of that episode. >> >> I can find out the name of the book if you want me to, but I'm >> not even sure if you can find it this side of the sink. (Except >> maybe import/novelty bookstores....) The name of the book is "Afterlife," by Tony Harwood. Not a great book, but he did do a good program(e) guide. >I picked up a copy of this book at a Dr. Who Con last year (Timecon >'86 in San Jose, CA). So you might want to pick up a copy at the >next Con. I understand there will be a Blake's 7 Con in Chicago >(?) around the end of July 1987. Blake's 7 convention to be held July 31, August 1-2. >Interesting story... If you want some spoilers, let me know and >maybe I'll post a summary. Victor O'Rear {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 00:08:24 GMT From: ihlpa!pkb@rutgers.edu (Benson) Subject: Re: Death of "Blake's 7" I would very much like any or all information on Blake's 7. My husband and I got involved watching it during last summer. We both wished we had seen it from the beginning. Is this the end of the whole series or is there a chance it might continue or even possible be run again? If the answers to these questions have already been posted, please forgive me. I havent been able to read the 'news' lately. Thanks for any information. Pam Benson ihlpa!pkb ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 25 Feb 1987 06:41:00-PST From: devi%mailer.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: STARMAN Does anyone know of the status of the tv show STARMAN? Last week it was preempted by AMERIKA, and this week some other show is in its normal Fri. night time slot. Has it been cancelled? Seems strange since the last show showed previews of the coming show. I think this is a really good show. It's attempting to show how human beings look when seen through the eyes of an alien. And sometimes what we take for granted can seem pretty cruel, senseless, and "inhuman". Anyone know where I can write/call for more information about the status of the show? Thanks in advance. Gita Devi ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Mar 87 1016-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #54 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 4 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 54 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Feb 87 07:48:49 GMT From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: Teckla ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes: >But I have been hearing comments of the form the "Vlad series" this >and the "Vlad series" that. I quibble with the use of "series" >here. Since the three books published are named after three of the houses of the Cycle, people on the net are assuming (with at least the tacit consent of the author (Hi Steve!)) that there are destined to be 17 books. I agree there isn't a real basis for assuming they will all feature Vlad -- except for the fact that it's 3 for 3 so far (it'll be 4 for 4 when Easterner is published; on the other hand, that starts to look like evidence for MORE than 17 books....) The publication order was Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla; that was also the order they were written in. The chronological order is Yendi, Jhereg, Teckla. Easterner falls before Yendi chronologically; it's based to some extent on material that was written before Jhereg. Is this sufficiently tangled? David Dyer-Bennet Usenet: ...viper!ddb Fidonet: Sysop of Fido 14/341 (612) 721-8967 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 1987 13:40 EST (Fri) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Teckla The problem I'm still having with Teckla, though, is one that most people seem to be ignoring. I just find it very hard to believe that knowing that the Teckla will have their turn ruling the Empire (the great Cycle remember?), that 1) they would be willing to risk screwing it up (since, it seems to me anyway, that attempting to break the cycle would be so much against their natures, that it would be virtually impossible), and 2) that the Lords of the other houses would be so cruel to the Teckla knowing that they would end up in charge after a while. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 17:11:13 GMT From: roy@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Roy Mongiovi) Subject: Re: Teckla Jhereg and Yendi were good stories. I liked Yendi better because it was paced faster and kept me riveted to my seat. However.... Teckla is one long domestic squabble. Ho hum. If I wanted to experience dreck like that, I'd live at home with my parents. Nothing much happens except Cawti acts like a teenager and Vlad acts like a jerk (*I* know how to solve my problems, I'll *kill* everybody). For you folks that thought that Cawti's change was reasonable, and that the revolution was realistic, I'd like to suggest that you are judging her actions with ideals that were born from a romantic (and not too accurate) remembrance of the 60's. It's one thing to protest in the US, and quite another to protest in a country that has an Emperess and does not have the guarantees of personal liberty that we have. People SHOOT at you when you revolt. What happened to the protest movement in the US after Kent State? Also, why is it that (possibly) non-earth human folks have to have the same morality as us? On a world where reincarnation is KNOWN to occur, and normal death need not be permanent, is murder the same crime it is here? From the first two books, I'd say no. Vlad is obviously a good guy. He also commits murder. That conflict of reality in our world with Vlad's is what made those books interesting for me. Then Teckla came out and Vlad became a weenie. End of interest. Another thing. What is the big deal about Vlad having been Aleira's brother? Remember, reincarnation happens. In ONE of his lives, Vlad was the brother to Aliera in ONE of her lifetimes. Big whoopie. What about their countless other lives? Didn't anyone else feel that the ghost that appears to stop Vlad from killing all the revolutionaries in the house was a little bit too much deus-ex-machina-ish? It seemed like a pretty cheap plot device to me. I don't remember any ghosts mentioned before (except, of course, at Deathsgate Falls). But the last time I looked they hadn't moved that into town yet. Roy J. Mongiovi Systems Analyst Office of Computing Services Georgia Institute of Technology Atlanta GA 30332 (404) 894-4660 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!roy ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 87 09:30:03 GMT From: viper!dave@rutgers.edu (David Messer) Subject: Re: Teckla From: "Stephen R. Balzac" > The problem I'm still having with Teckla, though, is one that >most people seem to be ignoring. I just find it very hard to >believe that knowing that the Teckla will have their turn ruling >the Empire (the great Cycle remember?), Actually, a Great Cycle is another thing entirely... >that 1) they would be willing to risk screwing it up (since, it >seems to me anyway, that attempting to break the cycle would be so >much against their natures, that it would be virtually impossible), It IS virtually impossible. That is why so few Teckla were involved in the revolt. Remember that most of the people who were revolting were Easterners and that the cycle doesn't apply to them. >and 2) that the Lords of the other houses would be so cruel to the >Teckla knowing that they would end up in charge after a while. A cycle lasts a long time. Most Dragearans don't live through more than a part of one. Also, people just don't think of the consequences of their actions that way. How many countries on Earth worry about what will happen to them if they loose power? And, yet history shows that it happens more often than not. David Messer Lynx Data Systems UUCP: ihnp4!quest!viper!dave ihnp4!meccts!viper!dave ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 87 09:57:53 GMT From: viper!dave@rutgers.edu (David Messer) Subject: Re: Teckla roy@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Roy Mongiovi) writes: >Teckla is one long domestic squabble. Ho hum. If I wanted to >experience dreck like that, I'd live at home with my parents. >Nothing much happens except Cawti acts like a teenager and Vlad >acts like a jerk (*I* know how to solve my problems, I'll *kill* >everybody). It is true enough that Teckla was not as pleasant a story as the earlier books, but I think the conflicts that the characters went through made it a very good story. Vlad finds out that for once, killing everybody wouldn't solve his problems. If you had read the book, you would have noticed that Vlad thinks about killing everybody, but never does. >For you folks that thought that Cawti's change was reasonable, and >that the revolution was realistic, I'd like to suggest that you are >judging her actions with ideals that were born from a romantic (and >not too accurate) remembrance of the 60's. It's one thing to >protest in the US, and quite another to protest in a country that >has an Emperess and does not have the guarantees of personal >liberty that we have. People SHOOT at you when you revolt. What >happened to the protest movement in the US after Kent State? As I remember, it intensified. What gives you the idea that people don't have guarantees of personal liberty on Dragaera? It seems to me that freedom is almost absolute there unless you break one of the unwritten laws like fighting between houses. Nobody bugged the revolutionaries until they started bugging the Empire. As for the realism of the revolt: remember that these people, by-and-large, were neophytes at the revolutionary game. They didn't have a world were revolutions are common and one may study them for effectiveness. I think SKZB did a pretty good job of portraying bunch of enthusiastic, but somewhat naive socal-reformers. >Also, why is it that (possibly) non-earth human folks have to have >the same morality as us? On a world where reincarnation is KNOWN >to occur, and normal death need not be permanent, is murder the >same crime it is here? From the first two books, I'd say no. Why shouldn't they have the same morality? And it is clear that murder is a somewhat lesser crime there. Given reincarnation, life becomes cheaper -- both in terms of the frequency of murders and the severity of the punishment. >Vlad is obviously a good guy. It isn't so obvious to me. It is true that one is sympathetic towards him, but he doesn't wear a white hat. >Another thing. What is the big deal about Vlad having been >Aleira's brother? Did you read this thing? That is explored in great depth. Vlad felt that murder of Dragearans was okay because of how they treated Easterners. Then, to his shock, he found out that he used to be one himself. Sorta like a southern bigot who finds out that he has a Black grandparent. David Messer Lynx Data Systems UUCP: ihnp4!quest!viper!dave ihnp4!meccts!viper!dave ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 87 05:32:19 GMT From: roy@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Roy Mongiovi) Subject: Re: Teckla dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes: > Vlad finds out that for once, killing everybody wouldn't solve his > problems. Oh, on the contrary, there's one point where killing everyone *would* solve his problems. But unfortunately, a ghost appears to talk him out of it :-) > What gives you the idea that people don't have guarantees of > personal liberty on Dragaera? It seems to me that freedom is > almost absolute there unless you break one of the unwritten laws > like fighting between houses. Nobody bugged the revolutionaries > until they started bugging the Empire. Ah, right. Did we read the same books? These are slaves in a feudal system. The bone-crushing reality of simply having to support their lives and pay their owners taxes must surely prevent the idealistic nonsense Cawti was spouting. In the environment described for the planet (Dragaera?), I don't see how they could possibly act like 1960/70's protestors. It isn't until technology allows you the leasure time necessary to have non-violent protest that you find that sort of person. In feudal times you can only expect bloody revolution. I don't see any evidence that magic/sorcery is replacing technology enough to allow the Teckla to act as they did in the novel. > As for the realism of the revolt: remember that these people, > by-and-large, were neophytes at the revolutionary game. They > didn't have a world were revolutions are common and one may > study them for effectiveness. Right. And when Earth was in a corresponding place in its history, it didn't have the sort of protestors described in Teckla. The folks in Tecka had a lot of theory about how to boss the establishment. Where did it come from? > Did you read this thing? That is explored in great depth. Vlad > felt that murder of Dragearans was okay because of how they > treated Easterners. Then, to his shock, he found out that he used > to be one himself. Sorta like a southern bigot who finds out that > he has a Black grandparent. Yeah. I've read Jhereg/Yendi twice, and Teckla once. How about you? I understand the emphasis SKZB puts on Vlad's/Aliera's relationship. I'm questioning the logic of the author's treatment of that relationship. Perhaps it isn't fair to question that sort of thing (suspension of disbelief and all that), but I like stories that are logically consistant. I am a programmer, after all :-) It seems to me that in a society where reincarnation is a proven concrete RECALLABLE fact, family doesn't mean what it does to us. The concept of a father is the grownup who took care of you when you were little the most recent time. Likewise with siblings. What makes one lifetime (out of who knows how many) special? Is it sensible that such concepts would exist to such a people? Roy J. Mongiovi Systems Analyst Office of Computing Services Georgia Institute of Technology Atlanta GA 30332 (404) 894-4660 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!roy ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 87 08:24:10 PST (Tuesday) From: SWigdor.es@Xerox.COM Subject: Teckla and Timeliness All the discussion on Teckla triggers a thought on relative time. In the stories the Dragaerans are stated to have a life span of 1000-1500 years and the humans only 75-100 (never clearly stated but implied). This says that Dragaerans have a longer life span over humans by an order of 15 magnitudes. This compares approximately with the relationship between man and mice. When humans plan for the long term we are talking 10-15 years (of course try planning on your job for longer that 5 years if you don't 15 is long), but with Dragaerans we are talking 150-200 years. So why shouldn't all the other Jhereg crime lords ignore Vlad since in a relative short period of time (to them) he will be an old man and an easy mark. The bottom line is why should two races with such different perceptions of time and the afterlife, interact on so human a level. This is not to say however that I didn't enjoy the books, because I did. It is alway interesting to watch an author and his/her story mature. Sheldon Wigdor SWigdor.es@Xerox.COM ------------------------------ Date: 15 Feb 87 03:28:29 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Teckla dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes: >>Another thing. What is the big deal about Vlad having been >>Aleira's brother? >Did you read this thing? That is explored in great depth. Vlad >felt that murder of Dragearans was okay because of how they treated >Easterners. Then, to his shock, he found out that he used to be >one himself. Sort of like a southern bigot who finds out that he >has a Black grandparent. Not exactly. Quoted from my copy of JHEREG, chapter 10, without permission: ``And that meant -- what? That the thing that had driven me into the Jhereg -- my hatred of Dragaerans -- was in fact a fraud. That my contempt for Dragaerans wasn't a feeling of superiority for my system of values over theirs, but was in fact a feeling of inadequacy going back, how long? Two hundred and fifty thousand years?'' He wasn't being hypocritical; he was a Jhereg as Dolivar, he is a Jhereg as Vlad. He just didn't realize what was driving him. Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 05:35:21 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Teckla and Timelines SWigdor.es@Xerox.COM writes: >All the discussion on Teckla triggers a thought on relative time. >In the stories the Dragaerans are stated to have a life span of >1000-1500 years and the humans only 75-100 (never clearly stated >but implied). It *was* stated somewhere; you're off by a factor of two. 3000 is the average Dragaeran lifetime. >talking 150-200 years. So why shouldn't all the other Jhereg crime >lords ignore Vlad since in a relative short period of time (to >them) he will be an old man and an easy mark. Because, conversely, Vlad will move faster than they will. What if he decides he wants to be on the Jhereg Council? I'd give him 10 years to do it; a Dragaeran would plan for 100 or so years. Dragaerans aren't used to people who move fast, because of the difference in relative rate of life. >The bottom line is why should two races with such different >perceptions of time and the afterlife, interact on so human a >level. This is not to As suggested in JHEREG, it probably happens because of the influence of the Jenoine early on. Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Mar 87 1041-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #55 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 4 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 55 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Terminology (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Feb 87 20:47:49 GMT From: mtgzz!eme@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' tmca@ut-ngp.UUCP (Tim Abbott) writes: > With regard to those who comment on putting 'fantasy' under > 'science fiction' I'm surprised that no one mentioned this or has heard of it, but one of the meanings of SF that I've heard of is 'science fantasy'. I could never figure out if this was meant to be an abbreviation for 'science fiction and fantasy' or if it was meant as another sub-genre. Beth Eades ihnp4!mtgzz!eme ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 87 13:01 EDT From: DANDOM@UMass.BITNET Subject: Semantics of 'Sci-Fi' Re: Popular usage os the term 'Sci-Fi': I don't use it, and I prefer the term 'SF' for the simple reason that 'SF' implies 'Speculative Fiction' as well as 'Science Fiction'. Maybe it also implies 'Superlative Fantasy' or 'Serendipitous Flagellation', but you get the idea. 'Scientifiction', from the pulps had a nice sound to it. The best, bar none, term I have ever heard is the Italian term, 'Fantascienza' which implies the whole gamut, in addition to being an aesthetically pleasing word that rolls off the tongue with great ease and pleasure. The whole controversy is pretty absurd when you think about it; however, SF fandom encourages disputes whenever possible. The nonsense about 'Trekker' and 'Trekkie' is ironic, in that it points out the inherent fanticism involved. These 'Trek-Heads' are so obsessed with a TV show that they argue endlessly over what they should be called. In doing so, the public's perception of SF Fandom is fueled once again. We come across as Anal-Retentive Fanatics. This trend is also manifested in the vocabulary of fandom by such distinctions as 'Media' and 'Literary' fans. The 'Literary' fans, doubtless wishing to secure 'Dorsai''s place on the library shelf right next to Chaucer and Faulkner tend to draw acute distinctions between themselves and the so-called 'Media' fans. As we all know, writing is not a 'medium', only Television and Movies. The 'Media' fans don't call themselves anything, and instead spend countless hours wondering why NESFA refuses to pander to their tastes at Boskones and writing 800 page fanzines devoted to Judson Scott fan-fiction. The above is intended only in the spirit of sarcasm. It does remain however, that fans are notorious for making mountains out of molehills. Perhaps it is the sign that we are all existentialists. We have found great meaning in essentially meaningless things. We could write volumes on the fine distinction between 'Literary SF' and 'Media Sci-Fi'. The rest of us? We'll just keep reading and enjoying and seeing an occasional film that strikes our fancy. Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Feb 87 15:47:11 EST From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa Subject: RE: sf vs. sci-fi Another two cents' worth from beautiful FT Bragg, North Carolina's playground. I think the term "Mundanes" (RE: msg from Wahl) probably came from membership overlap with the Society for Creative Anachronism. At DeepSouthCon '78 (hmm, yes, I do need to get around a bit more...) the SCA contingent was very much in evidence. Likewise, the SCA'juns at the U of Alabama (the Shire of Misty Mere, to the Knowne World) seemed to read a lot of science fiction and fantasy. Granted, this is a lot of soup from two small oysters-- anyone out there with corroboration/contradiction ? By the way, saying that you are "into SF" around here tends to get you marked as a military groupie/Rambo fan due to the high concentration of Special Forces types. It's easier to say either "sci-fi" or the whole word-- it saves explanations. (OK, so I'm exaggerating. The POSSIBILITY of the misunderstanding is there !) I've been enjoying the BB, and look forward to the next posting. Good Stuff ! Regards, Dave Wegener ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 19:12:39 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' eme@mtgzz.UUCP writes: >I'm surprised that no one mentioned this or has heard of it, but >one of the meanings of SF that I've heard of is 'science fantasy'. >I could never figure out if this was meant to be an abrev. for >'science fiction and fantasy' or if it was meant as another >sub-genre. Well, to the best of my recollection someone suggested the label science fantasy for work that is basically science fiction but includes certain fantastic elements. For example, Dr. Fezziwig invents a time machine, goes back to ancient Greece, and discovers that the Greek Gods did in fact exist. I think the science fantasy label goes back to the early or mid `60s, and was proposed by an SF writer in an article in one of the SF magazines. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 87 06:13:12 GMT From: sunybcs!nobody@rutgers.edu (Unprivileged User) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' SF is a term that is warped around by each individual who uses it to signify his or her favorite out of dozens of possible meanings, all subject to interpretation, etc. Some that I have heard are: Science Fiction Science Fantasy ScientiFantasy Speculative Fiction The last one just about includes everything you might want it to, even (gasp) that "modern literary giant," Steven King. Some people like to create millions of sub-genres. Some, like Clarke, sneer from their high thrones that ANYTHING that has even an ELEMENT of fantasy,such as a book where they go faster than light, is not WORTHY to be classified as science fiction at all, but must be relegated to the lowly position of fantasy. Personally, I like to think of all that junk that they call "hard core" SF -- the stuff written primarily by dudes like Clarke, Asimov, etc. who would rather lecture about orbital mechanics and the physical mechanisms of going to Jupiter than write real stories, as "Sci-Fi." Sci-Fi also includes most SF movies, including the dreadful Star Trek IV. SF, on the other hand, I prefer to use only for works of some literary and artistic merit. Things with good story line, plot, theme, characterizations, etc., and also some degree of social relevance. You can include many fantasy books in this, if you like. I don't care. I like fantasy as much as science fiction, but it is usually clearer if you just refer to fantasy as fantasy. Unfortunately, I don't have a good word for that crud that people like Piers Anthony churn out. Hope this has helped some. Want a really good book? Read RADIX, by A.A.Attanasio. Have a good one, all.... ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 87 18:54:18 GMT From: jhardest@Wheeler-EMH Subject: SF vs SCI-FI Well, it looks like the battle lines are drawn. The people who say `SF' and those who say `sci-fi' have set their their army (figuratively) so it is time for the mellow fans (I being the president) to make a statement. When I talk about this sub-class of literature, I call it science fiction or even science faction. I say this because I am not lazy about my speech or writing. John Hardesty BBN Communications Corporation Hawaii jhardest@ wheeler-emh.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 87 18:05:24 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' eme@mtgzz.UUCP writes: >I'm surprised that no one mentioned this or has heard of it, but >one of the meanings of SF that I've heard of is 'science fantasy'. >I could never figure out if this was meant to be an abrev. for >'science fiction and fantasy' or if it was meant as another >sub-genre. Science fantasy, as I understand it, is a sub-genre of science fiction, but there's no underlying scientific basis for the... err... special effects. Henry Kuttner is widely reknowned as the past master of science fantasy; space opera also falls in this category (i.e., Jack Williamson, "Star Wars"). I'd also include stories written as if some sort of high-technology was making magic appear to work, such as almost anything by Jack Chalker. ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 87 00:23:55 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu (becky) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes: >So why not cll it fantasy and be done with it? Because it's not! Sure, the line dividing science fiction and fantasy is not very clear, and never CAN be, given the nature of the genres. But the different names point out the differences in the explorations involved. Science fiction, in my definition, is a fiction which is involved with the physical laws that govern our universe. In its more advanced state, sf explores the reactions of people, whether human or not, to changes in understandings of those laws. It can explore possibilities in the realm of what our culture currently calls `Science' in a fictional aspect (rather than in report form), and it can also deal with more `traditional' stories in relation to those possibilities. `Fantasy' deals in the same manner with the corresponding laws of other universes; since we have as yet no proof that other universes even exist, let alone the possibility that they are governed by laws that are substantially different from ours, fantasy is far more abstract than sf. This genre also deals with possibilities that MAY apply to our own universe, but that are so far removed from our current knowledge that they may as WELL be found in another universe. The two fictions, as FICTIONS, can be equally enjoyable. But as presentations of ideas, possibilities, extensions of our current knowledge of the universe, the two are very different. Fantasy has the larger range, but also the greater possibility for error. And for someone who was raised to believe in the scientific method, that can be a very important difference indeed. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 11:24:26 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI') For the record, I do feel that there is a difference between science fiction and fantasy, but not a very clear one. Most things lie in a gray area, and often the only reliable definition is the functional one: it is what it's sold as. (I know that's not reliable, nor even very sensible. But it's about the most consistent one I can think of, if we're going to insist on a not-too-fuzzy "definition"...) becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes: >laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes: >>So why not cll it fantasy and be done with it? >Because it's not! [ ... ] > >Science fiction, in my definition, is a fiction which is involved >with the physical laws that govern our universe. In its more >advanced state, sf explores the reactions of people, whether human >or not, to changes in understandings of those laws. It can explore >possibilities in the realm of what our culture currently calls >`Science' in a fictional aspect (rather than in report form), and >it can also deal with more `traditional' stories in relation to >those possibilities. Becky, you seem to think of science fiction mostly as what is often called "hard sf". As in Sagan's pi-meter, now beaten to death [I hope]. But much science fiction is not about science or technology at all, although the science functions as a *necessary* *backdrop* for the story. For example, consider LeGuin's "The Word for World is Forest", and Leinster's "Martian Odyssey". These stories are about alien (== strange, mysterious) ways of thinking; but they use the metaphor of aliens (== from space) to say their piece. Well, as I finished that paragraph I thought, "But you could argue that these stories are (also) about *aliens* (== from space), not just about new ways of thinking." But what does it mean to be "about aliens?" We have never met any. We are completely ignorant of the truly alien (by definition, I suppose). I think much of science fiction is a rehearsal of what we will do when we meet them, much as children play house and rehearse adult roles. But it is very hard to write a story "about aliens", because in the end all fiction is about *us*, human lives and concerns, whatever it uses as a metaphor, be it BEMs or bunny rabbits. >`Fantasy' deals in the same manner with the corresponding laws of >other universes; since we have as yet no proof that other universes >even exist, let alone the possibility that they are governed by >laws that are substantially different from ours, This is fascinating. I read what you said here and was all set to jump in with, "But by that definition, Dhalgren is fantasy." And then I thought about it a little, and decided that yes, it is. Does what you are saying here mean that fantasy is just science fiction with different physical laws? That's a twist; I've seen people argue that science fiction is a subgenre of fantasy (cf. Laura above), but the other way around is rare. >fantasy is far more abstract than sf. This genre also deals with >possibilities that MAY apply to our own universe, but that are so >far removed from our current knowledge that they may as WELL be >found in another universe. But this, then, definitely includes such things as faster-than-light travel and communication, terraforming, genetic engineering on a grand scale, and many other staples of "science fiction". Also psychic powers, a staple of much fantasy (which I personally believe in about as much as I believe in warp drive, but I'm quite willing to have others disagree). >The two fictions, as FICTIONS, can be equally enjoyable. But as >presentations of ideas, possibilities, extensions of our current >knowledge of the universe, the two are very different. Fantasy has >the larger range, but also the greater possibility for error. And >for someone who was raised to believe in the scientific method, >that can be a very important difference indeed. When you say that "fantasy has the greater possibility for error", you seem to mean, again, in contrast to "hard sf", the stories written by physicists who include afterwords with references to the relevant scientific journals. But what is "Star Wars", then? Scientifically, I believe it less than Hambly's "Darwath" series. I have seen science fiction described (I don't think I want to say "defined") as a genre of writing in which the writer gets to make one outrageous assumption or set of assumptions (FTL travel, genetic engineering) and then must be reasonable for the rest of the story, so that things follow from the ground the wild assumption laid. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the main difference between science fiction and fantasy is that in fantasy, that assumption can be more outrageous than it can in science fiction. That's a fascinating idea. I think part of the problem with trying to find some sort of line between fantasy and science fiction is that which category we perceive something as being in depends, not so much on its subject matter (spaceships vs. dragons) but on the way it is presented, and "the way it is presented" is terribly difficult to quantify. (I never did like English classes where you dissected a story into little bits...) Is it just a historical fluke that spaceships are correlated strongly with what is felt to be "science fiction"? I would be interested to hear of any books people can think of that do not seem to fit in the category one would assume they would. For instance, I always thought of Dhalgren as science fiction, and suddenly four paragraphs ago I realized that it is more fantasy to me. The Pern books are full of dragons, yet they are science fiction. Are there any fantasy stories with spaceships? Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Mar 87 0806-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #56 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 56 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh & Eddings & Sagan & Townsend (2 msgs) & Zimmer (3 msgs) & Recommendations (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Feb 87 17:32:31 GMT From: eppstein@tom.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) Subject: Dune and Big Books (really Cherryh) chen@gt-stratus.UUCP (Ray Chen) writes: > What I liked about the book [Dune] was the power politics. > [followed by a bunch of recommendations for other books for other > reasons] I noticed you didn't mention C.J. Cherryh, *the* master of power politics. Almost all of her books have this as a major or minor theme; some good ones are the Chanur series, Angel With the Sword, Downbelow Station (winner Hugo or was it Nebula?), Cuckoo's Egg, and Serpent's Reach. Cherryh is tied with Zelazny for having the most books on my shelf. David Eppstein eppstein@cs.columbia.edu Columbia U. Computer Science Dept. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 87 07:38:15 GMT From: ur-tut!agoe@rutgers.edu (Karl Cialli) Subject: Re: David Eddings and _The Malleorean_ > This is, by the way, the first in a five book series, so Eddings > will be taking us well into the 1990's before this is done. D. Eddings happened to be at a local bookstore a last year were a friend of mine got me an autographed copy of _Pawn of Prophecy_ and the answers to a few questions. Mr. Eddings was there with a representitive from his publishing company so there was very little he could say. As for the upcoming books, _The Malleorean_ is another set of five like _The Belgariad_ and then there will be a final two books that will go back in depth on the prologue of _The Belgariad_ - all the gods, Torak, the Orb and such. He said he wanted the whole thing to be a twelve book epic (I forgot the word for this). He couldn't tell very much in the way of Errand and other characters besides *his* pronunciation of their names and what he had in mind for their personalities. Karl Cialli MCI International Inc. Dept. 430/875 1 International Drive Rye Brook, NY 10573 UUCP: {allegra, cmcl2, decvax, harvard, seismo}!rochester!agoe ARPA: agoe@rochester.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 87 23:49:56 GMT From: desj@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (David desJardins) Subject: Re: Contact tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >(As for the technical argument, can we all just agree that he >should have used the gravitational constant or Planck's constant >instead of a purely mathematical number for a marginal increase in >plausibility, and then drop this subject?) I hate to keep dragging this up, but I do have a penchant for accuracy. It would be impossible even in theory to encode information in G or hbar, because there are no "natural units" in which to measure these constants and decipher the messages. In fact, theoretical physicists frequently choose systems of units in which both of these constants have value exactly 1. It is hard to encode much information in the expansion of 1. He could perhaps have used some true dimensionless constant such as the fine structure constant. If the fine structure constant *is* in fact an arbitrary constant and not fixed by the geometry of the universe, then it might indeed be possible to choose it to include some specific information. But in practice it would be impossible to extract that information; the only way to get at it would be to measure it empirically, and it seems impossible to imagine an experiment that could measure any physical parameter with an accuracy of more than twenty digits or so. The fundamental problem is that mathematical constants can be computed to high precision by algorithms but, by that very fact, there can be no information embedded in them. Dimensionless parameters (not G or hbar but perhaps the fine structure constant) could conceivably have information embedded but cannot be measured accurately enough to extract that information. Basically, Sagan's whole notion is bogus. Since this is sf-lovers, I might as well say something about the rest of the book. The science (i.e., the artifact they build and what it does) is all completely bogus. But, since it is necessary for the plot, it is not unreasonable to suspend disbelief (particularly since it is hardly fair to expect Sagan to give a technically accurate explanation of how it works). A bigger problem is that the aliens are also completely bogus; Sagan's ethnocentrism shows through in a big way here. (There are billions and billions of alien races out there, but they are all exactly like us!) The plus is that the human characters are indeed competently drawn (which I admit was a surprise -- I expected this to be the weakest part of Sagan's writing, and it turned out to be the strongest), although certainly not brilliant. If this is enough for you, then great. I would give the book about [***], not because it is great but because there is so much worse trash out there. David desJardins ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Feb 87 20:28:17 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1) From: Ian_Nottage Subject: "Adrian Mole" I agree. I have never heard of a radio show around the AM story, and I dispute that one exists. I believe that Sue Townsend wrote the book as a book, and that it was only adapted for the small screen as an afterthought (with a theme tune by Ian Dury, my all-time hero). Also, what does "to flame" mean? I have noticed it quite a bit on the board, but have still to arrive at an answer. Cheers, Ian. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 87 17:47:45 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1) From: P.Sharples Cc: DREW , Cc: DERRICK Subject: Adrian Mole - a clarification cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) wrote: >> The Growing Pains of Adrian Mole is, co-incidentally, like The >>Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy a TV series of the book of the >>radio series. > >When I was in Australia I read a newspaper article praising THE >SECRET DIARY OF ADRIAN MOLE, AGE 13 3/4 and its sequels, and went >out and bought the book. Neither book nor article mentioned a >pre-existing radio show. Strictly speaking "The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole" first appeared in written form (serialised in a woman's magazine, I think). However, it first broke into popularity when extracts from the "Diary" were read aloud on BBC Radio 4. The popularity of this series, (used really as a filler between programmes), led to the books being published, (and selling in huge quantities), and the adaption into a TV series. Pete P.Sharples%uk.ac.bradford.central.cyber1@ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 18:10:00 GMT From: convex!cowles@rutgers.edu Subject: Zimmer - Chondos Does anyone have any information on when (or whether) the final volume of Paul Zimmer's 'King Chondos' series will appear. Five years is a long time to wait. John Cowles ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 87 01:41:17 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Zimmer - Chondos cowles@convex.UUCP writes: >Does anyone have any information on when (or whether) the final >volume of Paul Zimmer's 'King Chondos' series will appear. Five >years is a long time to wait. Don't we know it! The basic problem is that the books were originally published by Playboy Press, which went out of business. They sold their rights to Berkeley (I believe), which reissued the two that had come out but was not interested in publishing the rest. (I have volume 1 in a Playboy edition, and volume 2 in the other. The formats are the same, just the little logo at the top is different.) About two years ago, Locus reported that Zimmer had sold another book in the series; not the third in the trilogy, however, but a prequel to the ones already out. It was just a little "publishing note"; it gave no details. (It probably said who he sold it to, but I don't remember.) I have heard nothing more about that. I met Paul Edwin Zimmer at the Darkover Grand Council about a year and a half ago (he's MZB's brother), and asked him what was happening. He said that the prequel story was going to come out, but was very vague. I said, "But you left us on such a cliffhanger! We want to know what HAPPENS!" to which he unhelpfully responded "It's Istvan! You know what happens!" or words to that effect. This was not a real conversation; I realized halfway through an elevator ride that he was standing next to me. So I did not have time to really talk with him. I doubt we will ever see anything. It just seems to have fallen through. But there's always that chance...! Shoshanna Green ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 87 08:11:43 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Zimmer - Chondos I hope he does get the rest published also. Not great stuff, but interesting in a dark, intense sort of way. I would think it would be right up DAW's alley, but they probably feel that without rights to the first two volumes they would be getting the short end of the stick... George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 87 00:19:00 GMT From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU Subject: Thanks for All the Books I have so far received a lot of recommendations about SF books to read. I appreciate your help,and your time,and have started reading the most commonly recommended books. I have just finished another book by Hogan(No one had recommended that one so far). It is a WWII history rewrite story, and I gave it a grade of C-(detail comment somewhere else). That taught me another lesson. And to those who have not read it yet, I do not recommend it(again no flame). Also I commented in this news group about Hogan's style being not very subtle, and readers can easily guess the outcome in the end. So far I have received lots of challanges about that comment, and urged to read the "Inheret the Star" trilogy. I here formally accept the challenge. I will again read 1/2 - 2/3 through and try to guess the answers. I personally don't believe that will be a problem. I have been reading Agatha Christie, and Ellery Queen for the last 5 years, and I am getting better and better at guessing the plots(note I don't mean I can get them 1/2 way through). So no big sweat. Following some of your suggestions, I am also reading Ringworld. I think that is an excellent book although the tempo is kind of slow at least at the beginning. I have also finished another one of Niven's book "Footfall". I don't think that one is any good(Again no one has recommended that book to me so far.) So I think start from know on, I am only going to read the books you folks have recommended. Thanks again. Eugene ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 87 17:40:00 GMT From: netxcom!ewiles@rutgers.edu (Edwin Wiles) Subject: Re: DUNE -vs- Golden Torc series From: Ron Singleton >>Particularly, if anybody knows of something they consider better >>than Dune, I'd be VERY anxious to hear about it. > >I also thouroughly enjoyed the first three books I enjoyed the first book immensely, and would gladly recommend it to anyone. However, the other two books of the first set I could not recommend, unless the reader had realy enjoyed the first one. I tried to read the second set, but couldn't seem to get past the beginning of the first book. Strange..... > Now to your question: Different but one of those big novels >that I really liked, try The Mists of Avalon. The Chronicles of >Amber, but don't buy the Merlin stories until the third one comes >out. I just finished the second and am (angrily) left in the >middle of an adventure waiting for the finish. The Spellsinger >stories. The Golden Torc series. The Dragon books, except maybe >the last two. All of good ol' SKZB. I've never read The_Mists_of_Avalon, so I can't comment on it. I have read the Chronicles_of_Amber, and I agree that you shouldn't buy the Merlin books until all three are out. However, although I enjoyed the Golden Torc series, I don't think I can really recommend them, they have parts in all the books that drag on forevvveeeerrrrrrr. :-) > Re-reading this list I suddenly realise my taste seems to have >changed. For many years I've been a fan of "hard science" fiction >and these are all in "that other" category. So, go to Foundation, >Ringworld (not necessarily all of them, someone else will no doubt >have suggestions about this), and others of the type I'll hereby >dub "semi-classics, at least". I would only recommend the first two or three books in the Foundation series, as I found the style of writing extremely grating after the second book. Ringworld, I highly recommend. As to taste changes, I still get mildly incensed over how much of the 'Science Fiction' shelf space is take up with what I regard as pure 'Fantasy', most of which I find suitable for insulating a root cellar. However, I recognize that there are people, some of whom are my friends, who enjoy reading it. And there are some fantasy books that I really enjoy too. Sooo, I remain calm. :-) Enjoy! Edwin Wiles seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles Net Express, Inc. 1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300 Vienna, VA 22180 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 07:25:50 GMT From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books Hurm. I've got one vote for and one against. I liked Dune. Yes, the characterizations were lousy, the plot fairly standard, and I really didn't give a flying hoot about how wonderfully strange the ecology was -- which isn't to say that it was good or bad, I just didn't really care about it. What I liked about the book was the power politics. There's a lot of going on in the book, and at least half of it (and what it reveals about the society the politics is set in) isn't obvious. So if you like that sort of thing you'll like Dune. If not, oh, well. On to Heinlein. To be honest, I don't why anyone would recommend Heinlein as an introduction to science-fiction for mature readers. He tends to have at best, mediocre characterizations and also to paint his universes in broad shades of black and white (whereupon he then takes said paint brush and proceeds to cram it down the throat of the reader in a very unsubtle manner). Some recommendations of the top of my head: Hard-SF: The Mote in Gods Eye -- Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle Adequate characterizations. A great "first-contact" story. Plus you get the flavor of the old-style British governing and military system. Pure Fantasy: The Riddle-Master of Hed -- Patricia K. McKillip First part of one of my favorite fantasy trilogies. Gorgeously smooth writing that creates an *atmosphere* of fantasy. Plus a wonderfully detailed plot. Soft-SF: The Demolished Man -- Alfred Bester A classic featuring telepathy, future society, and murder. Read this one. Where do I put this?: Lord of Light -- Roger Zelazny Warning: there's a major flashback that confuses people until they realize they're reading a flashback. Needs no further hype. All-around fun: The Adventures of the Stainless Steel Rat -- Harry Harrison Just try the first 3 pages and see what you think. Hope you like at least one of these. There's a lot more where these came from. Ray Chen chen@gatech ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Mar 87 0826-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #57 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 57 Today's Topics: Films - Redubbing Movies (2 msgs) & Adaptations & Gor & Stranger From Venus & Doc Savage (4 msgs) & Jessica Harper & Star Wars (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1987 08:09 PST From: PAAAAA7@CALSTATE.BITNET Subject: Redubbing movies for a different effect Can anyone help me with this one: About 5 years ago there was a made-for television movie about a sabotaged nuclear reactor. Someone had "programmed" a large winch to open the reactor door (for service, naturally) while the reactor was still running. Lots of smoke and lights, little plot in a pseudo high-tech setting. But here's my question. I could swear that the stock footage from this same movie was re-dubbed after Three Mile Island. This time the focus was to prevent a "China Syndrome". All the sabotage plotline was removed. Does anyone remember this? Can you think of any more films "doctored" for the public? Rich McGee ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 87 02:10:24 GMT From: utterback@husc4.harvard.edu (Brian Utterback) Subject: Re: Redubbing movies for a different effect Well, I've only seen this movie once, when it was first shown, so I don't know about any redubbing, but the movie in question is "RED ALERT" and starred William Devane. I think it's more than 5 years old though. I rather enjoyed this movie. I can't imagine how they would remove the sabotage part, since it was the crux of the movie. Basically, what happened was the reactor plant owners discover a plot to sabotage the reactor. They don't know who, how, why, or when. Devane is the head of security (I think). He manages to slowly discover the details. A disgruntled, crazy employee is planning to blow the reactor up. He has been smuggling small bombs into the plant inside his lunch thermos. Each day he plants one more. When Devane finds out, they get the employee to tell them where bombs are. So, good guys shut the plant down, get the bombs, bring the reactor back on line. End of story, right. Except the employee lied, there are a couple more bombs. Devane figures this out. Down goes the reactor, get the bombs, back up comes the reactor. Little do we know, but the employee also ripped out some safeguards. With all the down time, the reactor is way off schedule, in fact, when they bring it up, it is scheduled to come down for maintenance. The computer controlled winch that is supposed to open the reactor vessel doesn't realize that the reactor is running. It starts to move for the vessel, and Devane sees it move, runs to stop it. It won't stop. He climbs up onto the massive hook on the winch and bodily prevents it from engaging. The thing weighs a ton (literally) so it takes all his strength to stop it. He yells to the others to shut the reactor down, but they argue about it! Eventually they bring it down, the plant is saved. The book version also has some "Big, Bad, Big Business" stuff in it too. Please remember, this is all from ( my rather poor) memory. Brian Utterback ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 18:24:16 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu Subject: Movie adaptations in general (was Re: The Stainless Steel Subject: Rat) fish@ihlpa.UUCP (Bob Fishell) writes: > The only decent adaptation of a classic SF story that I've seen > done well in recent years was John Carpenter's "The Thing," which > unlike it's 1950's predecessor, was pretty faithful to John W. > Campbell's "Who Goes There?," the story from which both films were > adapted. The BBC adaptations of THE INVISIBLE MAN and THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS were faithful adaptations (though, I suppose, not strictly movies). There was a Swedish/Irish co-production called variously TERROR OF FRANKENSTEIN and VICTOR FRANKENSTEIN which was also faithful, but dull. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 87 14:22:01 GMT From: houxa!acd@rutgers.edu (A.DURSTON) Subject: Re: Oh My God! GOR Movies From: Walter Chapman > where enough is filmed at one time to make two movies (like > Richard Chamberlain's Quartermain flicks). Anyway, the titles are > _GOR_ and This is probably the wrong place for this... Are the two Chamberlain flicks really two movies or just one that was released [ as 'King Solomon's Mines' ] bombed, given a new ad campaign and title [ 'Alan Quatermain, etc...' ] and rereleased? Did anyone bother seeing either or both? ACDurston ihnp4!{houxa,hotld,hotlg}!acd ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 87 22:46:40 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu Subject: STRANGER FROM VENUS STRANGER FROM VENUS A film review by Mark R. Leeper One of those films I had been curious to see for a long time showed up at a local video store. The film is STRANGER FROM VENUS, a British film made in 1954 with a number of strong similarities to the previous year's DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, right down to starring Patricia Neal. Helmut Dantine plays the nameless stranger who walks into an inn and is shortly revealed to be from the planet Venus. (You may remember Dantine as a young refugee trying to win at roulette so that he can bribe his way out of CASABLANCA.) He reads minds, he has healing powers, and he has a mission to save his planet and ours. STRANGER FROM VENUS is slow, it is stagey, it is visually somewhat dull with only one scene that has any special effects, and other than that the only visual novelty comes from the alien wardrobe: pants with stripes down the side. By today's standards this film offers little but the opportunity to say you have seen a rare science fiction film from the '50s. But making allowances for its age, it might be worth seeing. I'd give it a 0 on the -4 to +4 scale. For buffs only. Mark R. Leeper ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 87 21:00:31 GMT From: Ian Phillips Subject: Doc Savage - Man of Bronze Does anyone out there know if the sequel to the film of Doc Savage - Man of Bronze was ever filmed? I remember the first film had an advert at the end of it, but I never heard anything about the sequel. In addition, does anyone know just how many Doc Savage books there are? The latest one I've got is 80-something, but I'm sure there's more. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 87 12:20:29 GMT From: mimsy!chris@rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Doc Savage - Man of Bronze IP%UK.AC.BRADFORD.COMPUTING@ac.uk (Ian Phillips) writes: >Does anyone out there know if the sequel to the film of Doc Savage >- Man of Bronze was ever filmed? I remember the first film had an >advert at the end of it, but I never heard anything about the >sequel. Given what I have heard of the original film, I doubt it. (Captions in fight scenes? Whose fault were those?!) >In addition, does anyone know just how many Doc Savage books there >are? The latest one I've got is 80-something, but I'm sure there's >more. 18x for x \elem 3, 5, 7, I think. I cannot remember just what x is supposed to be, and I lost my copy of Farmer's _Apocalyptic_Life_ long ago. I am not sure if Farmer knew of Dent's unpublished _In_Hell,_ _Madonna_; if not, that would make it 4, 6, or 8. Incidentally, Bantam reordered them for the reprinting begun in the 60s, and has apparently stayed with the new ordering since then. The copyright dates jump around dramatically (as does the quality). Trying to collect them all, with around 80 so far, Chris Torek Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7690) UUCP: seismo!mimsy!chris ARPA/CSNet: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 15 Feb 87 06:54:48 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Doc Savage - Man of Bronze >Does anyone out there know if the sequel to the film of Doc Savage >- Man of Bronze was ever filmed? I remember the first film had an >advert at the end of it, but I never heard anything about the >sequel. hah. Considering the performance Ron Ely put in the first time, he's lucky to get dog food commercials. Commercial flop, deservedly so. >In addition, does anyone know just how many Doc Savage books there >are? The latest one I've got is 80-something, but I'm sure there's >more. 186, if I remember right. Last I looked, about 110 titles were published, although many of those were in multiple-story omnibuses, so I don't know the total number of volumes that is offhand. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 17 Feb 1987 22:37:42-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Doc Savage - Man of Bronze From: Ian Phillips > Does anyone out there know if the sequel to the film of Doc Savage > - Man of Bronze was ever filmed? I remember the first film had an > advert at the end of it, but I never heard anything about the > sequel. No, it never was. The first film was a box-office (and critical) bomb, so plans for a second film were dropped. > In addition, does anyone know just how many Doc Savage books there > are? The latest one I've got is 80-something, but I'm sure > there's more. Bantam keeps changing the format. Starting with #97/98, they were published 2-to-a-book. This went on until #125/126. The series went into hiatus at that point and started up again as 4-to-a-book under the title DOC SAVAGE OMNIBUS #1 (there has since been a second one). So, there's been 134 of the DS novels reprinted. They've still got a ways to go, though, since the total series count is 182 (181 original pulp novels, plus one that Lester Dent had sold to Street and Smith, but had never appeared until Bantam published it as #96, THE RED SPIDER). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 15:10:58 GMT From: ostroff@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jack H. Ostroff) Subject: Jessica Harper - what else has she done? While renting a copy of Altered States this weekend (comments on this another time) I wanted a second flick - so I grabbed one of their "specials" (half price rental) called Shock Treatment. The story sort of centers around Brad and Janet Majors several years after that other movie. It was no surprise that they were not played by the original actors, but I got a real shock when I saw Janet. I hadn't recognized the name in the credits (Jessica Harper) but I instantly remember her from Phantom of the Paradise, which I haven't seen in almost ten years. Does anyone know if she has been in anything else? (please reply by mail to me - I'll summarize if anyone asks) Thanks. Jack OSTROFF@RED.RUTGERS.EDU rutgers!topaz!ostroff ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 16:43:04 GMT From: inuxd!jody@rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross) Subject: Star Wars (TV) I watched Star Wars Network premiere on 2-14-87. I was pleasantly surprised. Knowing the traditional hacking job that is usually done to movies brought to TV, I wanted to watch and see how much was cut. Since I have seen the movie over twenty times in the cinema and countless time on tape and cable (was it on cable? or am I just thinking of when I rented the tape), I felt sure I would see all the cuts. Well I didn't. I notice a sentence missing in a few places and some scenes seemed slightly shorter (Yeah! let's hear it for them "S"s), but not the hack and slash traditional for TV networks. One thing that was discomforting was the commercials. The movie would build to a point and then COMMERCIAL!!!! Oh well, not much can be done about that. So I pick up "Beowulf" and read it untill the commercial ended and that way I didn't have "Coke" jingles clowding my thoughts as "Star Wars" continued. All in all, a pretty good two and a half hours spent curled up with a good book (I mean movie) on a Saturday night. jody ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 23:54:09 GMT From: spr@miro.Berkeley.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) Subject: Re: Star Wars (TV) jody@inuxd.UUCP (JoLinda Ross) writes: >I watched Star Wars Network premiere on 2-14-87. I was pleasantly >surprised. Knowing the traditional hacking job that is usually >done to movies brought to TV, I wanted to watch and see how much >was cut. Since I have seen the movie over twenty times in the >cinema and countless time on tape and cable (was it on cable? or am >I just thinking of when I rented the tape), I felt sure I would see >all the cuts. Well I didn't. I notice a sentence missing in a few >places and some scenes seemed slightly shorter (Yeah! let's hear it >for them "S"s), but not the hack and slash traditional for TV >networks. This makes me think of a few other items of differences. The post-Empire release of Star Wars had a few obvious additions: Darth pulling out of the spin, and the Episode number and subtitle. However, there were a few subtle deletions as well. These are mostly small lines, such as a few lines from the Death Star briefing and attack. The most interesting part is that in both versions, Luke says "Carrie!" when he returns from the Death Star battle. Early releases of the video tape were just the post-Empire release, though some later tape releases have a few deleted lines returned. >One thing that was discomforting was the commercials. The movie >would build to a point and then COMMERCIAL!!!! Oh well, not much >can be done about that. So I pick up "Beowulf" and read it untill >the commercial ended and that way I didn't have "Coke" jingles >clowding my thoughts as "Star Wars" continued. I didn't watch it this time, but did they have those silly interviews with people about their memories and anecdotes about Star Wars like they did when it was first shown on network TV. BTW, Jedi hits HBO on March 1st, remeber when George said we'd never see any of them on cable or video. How things change in ten years! Sean Rouse ARPA: spr@miro.berkeley.edu UUCP: ucbvax!miro!spr USnail: 2299 Piedmont Ave #315, Berkeley, Ca 94720 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 03:12:16 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Star Wars (TV) spr@miro.Berkeley.EDU (Sean Rouse) writes: >The post-Empire release of Star Wars had a few obvious additions: >Darth pulling out of the spin, and the Episode number and subtitle. >However, there Come again? I remember the first time I watched it; both because it was the first SF movie that was better than grade B (but not by much, admitted) and because it was the first movie I ever went to see without parental supervision. There was very definitely a flash to the TIE fighter that Darth Vader was flying, the picture was spinning, then suddenly steadied, then they went back to the action. I distinctly remember thinking, "Aha! Opening for a sequel!" Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Mar 87 0851-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #58 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 58 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (14 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 06 Feb 87 08:55 EST From: SAINT@YALEADS Subject: Heinlein > Many of you had suggested Heinlein's work. As some of you >have suggested I have just finished reading The Puppet Master. I >don't think it is well written. It is of typical 50's cold war >mentality. I would not judge Heinlein by The Puppet Masters or Farnhams Freehold or any of his VERY early works, before his style matured. If you want to read him at his peak, I suggest "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" or "Stranger in a Strange Land". ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 87 18:41:23 GMT From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET Subject: Re: Heinlein SAINT@YALEADS.BITNET says: > I would not judge Heinlein by The Puppet Masters or Farnhams >Freehold or any of his VERY early works, before his style matured. >If you want to read him at his peak, I suggest "The Moon is a Harsh >Mistress" or "Stranger in a Strange Land". I feel that Heinlein's early short stories (Blowups Happen, Lifeline, etc.) are worthwhile reading, as is the novel "The Door Into Summer." As far as recent works, I *definitely* recommend "Friday." It's at least as good as (if not better than) anything in the "peak" of his career. James D. Maloy The Pennsylvania State University Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL UUCP: {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 87 14:47:28 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: The Computer will never replace the brain (help needed) Shoshanna... I tried to figure out "what to keep" and "what to trim" from your article for this followup and found that I couldn't delete any of it, so I deleted it all and hope that folks still have your original available. Well written article! That said, ... The Loonies certainly couldn't have succeeded without Mike - Mannie says so towards the end, in fact - but for me, Mike was a real person by the end of the book, and I *felt* for him just as for a human. There was some discussion of Mike's self-awareness and needs (I can't remember whether Mannie was discussing it with Prof. de La Paz or if he was wool-gathering on the subject) and the supposition was that once the *inductive* reasoning reached a certain point, interaction with a human triggered the self-awareness and personhood, much as a baby develops by interacting with other humans. So Heinlein's tenet is that it takes non-deductive "thinking" ability and sympathetic human contact to make the leap to "consciousness". Mike is often referred to as an adolescent; he has trouble sensing fiction from fact; he grows during the revolution, learning responsibility as he goes. "Are they [Heinlein's computers] human?" Minerva became human, but was she still a computer? I don't think so. She became one of his super-smart female humans. The importance of Minerva after her change lies in her personality, which is still basically the same as it was, enhanced (so to speak!) by her sex-drive. Minerva as a computer wasn't sexual, so far as I remember, though Athene certainly is. We could branch off into a discussion of Heinlein's attitudes on family and sex, but I'll hold off on that for now. Much of the power of Heinlein's computers is developed by self- programming (ref: Mike's expansion), and I think that's how/why he duck's the issue of their feelings toward their inventers/programmers. By the time Dora and Minerva arrive, it's unclear that programmers even exist. Mike programs Junior to run the catapult, so even back then we have no human programmer. We can postulate that the inventor or programmer is more or less the "biological" parent and the human providing the awakening contact is the "true" parent, but Heinlein himself doesn't speculate on it in his writing, unfortunately. Heinlein's foci seem to me to be: - Down with Mrs. Grundy, sex is a good thing - Be a rugged individualist ("Rational Anarchy") - Tell a story - Defend your family - Strong personalities will make technology a "good thing" - Human chauvinism - Male chauvinism mixed, bizzarly, with a type of feminism - "The Peepul" are churlish masses His early stories dealt more with the impact of technology on humanity ("Blow-ups Happen", "Lifeline"); his later ones don't. As a result, the intelligent computers in his later stories *are* more gosh-wow than vehicles for socio-scientific speculation. 2010 deals with the computer's interaction with its inventor/ programmer. Morris's "Kerrion Empire" trilogy deals with the bonding of human ("user"? "partner".) and computer/spaceship. Was anything said of this in "Colossus, the Forbin Project"? Still mulling things over, Kris Stephens (408-746-6047) Amdahl Corporation amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 87 20:31:39 GMT From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser) Subject: Re: Heinlein SAINT@YALEADS.BITNET says: > I would not judge Heinlein by The Puppet Masters or Farnhams >Freehold or any of his VERY early works, before his style matured. >If you want to read him at his peak, I suggest "The Moon is a Harsh >Mistress" or "Stranger in a Strange Land". MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET writes: > I feel that Heinlein's early short stories (Blowups Happen, >Lifeline, etc.) are worthwhile reading, as is the novel "The Door >Into Summer." As far as recent works, I *definitely* recommend >"Friday." It's at least as good as (if not better than) anything >in the "peak" of his career. I second the motion on "The Door Into SUmmer" and "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". "Stranger in a Strange Land" is a bit too off-the-wall for an introduction. I quite disagree with the suggestion of "Friday", unless the reader is familiar with RAH's consistent failure to do a good job in developing female characters... and can put up with it. This is a major failing with most of his books. I don't let it bother me, but those who are not expecting it might be permanently turned off to RAH. I also enjoyed "Waldo" and "Magic, Inc." ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 87 06:36:59 GMT From: amdahl!chuck@rutgers.edu (Charles Simmons) Subject: Re: Heinlein "Waldo", "Magic, Inc", and "The Door into Summer" are probably the best works Heinlein has written. "Stranger in a Strange Land" is not off-the- wall if you grew up in California while EST was peaking. "Stranger" is classic Heinlein, and in that book you will find most, if not all of the ideas that Heinlein uses in many of his other works from about the same time period. ("Stranger" is also less off-the-wall than some of Sturgeon's novels, or Spinrad's novels. Being off-the-wall can often be a good thing in Science Fiction.) However, after reading these four books and maybe one or two others, a person should stop reading Heinlein. The problem is that nearly every Heinlein book contains a certain character over and over again. This problem is most evident in "Number of the Beast" where the character appears four times. That is, all of the protragonists in "Number of the Beast" have the same personality. While "Friday" is better than "Number of the Beast" it does not contain anything that did not appear in earlier works. Chuck ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 87 01:51:24 GMT From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser) Subject: Re: Heinlein chuck@amdahl.UUCP (Charles Simmons) writes: >"Stranger in a Strange Land" is not off-the- wall if you grew up in >California while EST was peaking. "Stranger" is classic Heinlein, >and in that book you will find most, if not all of the ideas that >Heinlein uses in many of his other works from about the same time >period. ("Stranger" is also less off-the-wall than some of >Sturgeon's novels, or Spinrad's novels. Being off-the-wall can >often be a good thing in Science Fiction.) Oh yes! Being off-the-wall can be quite a good thing! But the original context of the conversation, and the one I was responding to, was about material to introduce others to SF. There is a danger that unusual (ahem) material can permanantly warp a newcomer's view of the field. Would you hand a copy of Spinrad's "The Iron Dream" to your mother-in-law? (Assuming that you both have a m-i-l and like her) I would gladly hand mine "Waldo". >However, after reading these four books and maybe one or two >others, a person should stop reading Heinlein. The problem is that >nearly every Heinlein book contains a certain character over and >over again. This problem is most evident in "Number of the Beast" >where the character appears four times. That is, all of the >protragonists in "Number of the Beast" have the same personality. >While "Friday" is better than "Number of the Beast" it does not >contain anything that did not appear in earlier works. Sadly, I must agree. And if you don't like "Friday" and "Number of the Beast", you better not tackle "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls". You encounter the same tired old characters once again. Some of them make guest appearances as themselves, and some are retreads of the single character that RAH can do. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 87 14:13:08 GMT From: ag4@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Anne Louise Gockel) Subject: Re: Heinlein chuck@amdahl.UUCP (Charles Simmons) writes: >However, after reading these four books and maybe one or two >others, a person should stop reading Heinlein. The problem is that >nearly every Heinlein book contains a certain character over and >over again. I have to agree, I find Heinlein's characters and his plots very repetitious. Free love is nice, but I got the idea the first time. In general, I have to have gaps between his books in order to enjoy them. Hmmm, maybe it's time to actually pick up another. Anne ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 87 00:45:00 GMT From: ccvaxa!wombat@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Heinlein For the guy who didn't want to introduce his mother-in-law to SF with Spinrad: I know a guy who was going to introduce a little old lady in his bridge club to SF. He first tried a good ole nuts and bolts story (I've forgotten which one) on her. She read it, said it was ok, but she wanted something with more romance. So he handed her a copy of *Time Enough for Love*, and she loved it. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 17:36:15 GMT From: inuxm!arlan@rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: Heinlein's Books A few days ago someone was talking about Heinlein's earlier and later works and made the statement that FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD was one of the earlier works, recommending instead THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS or STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND as later, better books. Sorry to disappoint anyone, but if memory serves at all, then SIASL was the earliest, TMIAHM next and FF last of all! See, you can't really date Heinlein's works by fads of political theory. Of all the RAH books ever done, I thought FRIDAY the absolute worst; a liberal friend liked it best, saying that the old man had finally given up on being able to change anything, finally sliding into the slime with other "realist" authors. Precisely the reason I did not care for it. BTW, JOB should have come out in the middle 50s, when it would have been a shocker. As it is, JOB is merely a humorous bit of fluff that fundamentalists probably laugh off; back when I used to be one of those people, we argued most of RAH's humorous points away, in the 50s. They are not up to date at all. On the other hand, STRANGER... was written about 1960 or so; maybe JOB is one he did do back then and just waited to release a few years back? Arlan Andrews ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 13:00:48 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: teleportation booths madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes: >schumann@puff.WISC.EDU (Christopher Schumann) writes: >>What about the Stargate? Instant teleportation to another gate >>(selected somehow) on a huge network of gates. (Tuned, I think) >>The book was _Stargate_ written by some author I forget. >Yup. Andre Norton, I believe. Heinlein also wrote one like this, >but I forget the name. The Heinlein book was Starman Jones, it's not really a bad book if you haven't read Have Spacesuit Will Travel as they both seemed to use the same character with a different name and what seemed to be a completely different relativity theory! Piers Cawley ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 01:11:08 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Farnham's Freehold tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >He said, along with many others, that Farnham had not issued a >generally favorable judgment on nuclear war. In fact, he quite >clearly had, and as the discussion turned out, Heinlein meant for >him to be doing so in order to attack the idea that nuclear war >could be beneficial. This is *not* the way I interpret the passage in question. Farnham in fact makes a qualified, "it might not be completely bad" sort of statement -- and Heinlein goes on to show that even *that* is wrong. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Ashton-Tate 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 87 18:03:26 GMT From: sq!hobie@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books A Andrews (arlan@inuxm.UUCP) writes: >Of all the RAH books ever done, I thought FRIDAY the absolute >worst; Really? I thought "The Number of the Beast" to be the most odious novel I have ever experienced (I read maybe 100 pages and it kept getting WORSE). Maybe you never read that one. Hobie Orris SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Ont. {ihnp4|decvax}!utzoo!sq!hobie ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 87 20:20:43 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.edu (Jim "Jack" Frost) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books hobie@sq.UUCP (Hobie Orris) writes: >Really? I thought "The Number of the Beast" to be the most odious >novel I have ever experienced (I read maybe 100 pages and it kept >getting WORSE). Maybe you never read that one. I agree. BTW, the book did NOT get better, but even worse. However, I think Friday is not the worst, but one of the best books RAH has written. The character is pretty consistent, and the technology and surroundings are believable. Contrast that to Farnham's Freehold and The Number of the Beast, where RAH went to wit's end in imagination. (Note: Yes, I've read other things by RAH. Many, many other things.) Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 87 01:51:12 GMT From: hscfvax!spem@rutgers.edu (G. T. Samson) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes: >hobie@sq.UUCP (Hobie Orris) writes: >>[...] I thought "The Number of the Beast" to be the most odious >>novel I have ever experienced (I read maybe 100 pages and it kept >>getting WORSE). [...] > >I agree. BTW, the book did NOT get better, but even worse. [...] You know what the worst part was, was that portions of TNotB were serialized in Omni magazine (anybody remember THAT? Held up for a while as a decent place for SF and science, but oh, how it's fallen) and that those portions actually led me to believe that TNotB was going to be another one of those fine adventure type novels like _Glory Road_, albeit with more science in it. So I grabbed the trade paperback when it came out... oh, the disappointment. (Especially considering that I hadn't read much other Heinlein at the time, making the end chapter(s) fairly opaque...) G. T. Samson gts@hscfvax.HARVARD.EDU gts@borax.LCS.MIT.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Mar 87 0901-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #59 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 59 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Teleportation (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 Jan 87 04:12:55 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths rhr@osupyr.UUCP (Robert Robinson) writes: >I've never heard of that book either, but the word "jaunting" >reminded me of a rather bad British import series called "The >Tomorrow People". As I remember, these people were supposed to be >the next step in human evolution and endowed with the abilities of >teleportation,telekinesis, and telepathy. They were limited in the >fact that they could not knowingly hurt anyone (supposedly a >genetic limitation or something). I thought of this as well. ``Supposedly a genetic limitation or something''??? Since I'm close enough to having the talent in that amount, I'll clarify it: it has been called ``tele-empathy''. Feeling others' emotions at a distance. VERY effective in keeping someone from hurting another knowingly; and much more likely than telepathy. (It also would be closely linked to telepathy.) [N.B. I didn't say I have it. But I can easily imagine what kind of hell life would be for me if I had what empathy I do have in a stronger amount.] Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 781 6201 ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 87 06:56:00 GMT From: rlgvax!jesse@rutgers.edu (Jesse Barber) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths carl@harlie.UUCP (Carl Greenberg) writes: > There's always the good old "grab a chunk of space, yank, step > across" method where you either open a hole in spacetime and go > through or fold space up ("A Wrinkle in Time"). This may be the same, but in "MACROSCOPE" (maybe Piers Anthony, but I'm not sure), space was already folded. Just wrap a planet around you, increase the local gravity until the matter of the planet (and you) collapsed and you popped (teleported) to somewhere else. Also, in "Stardropper", mental power alone could teleport you to a place where the gravity potenial was the equivalent to the place you are. Sorry, I don't remember the author on this one either. Jesse @ C.C.I. Reston, Va. seismo!rlgvax!jesse ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 87 21:23:41 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.edu (Jim "Jack" Frost) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes: >twomey@gort.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes: >>I'm not sure how Niven's scheme works, and this may be it, I have >>certainly seen it used in some other stories, but this is food for >>thought. >>Teleportation involves recording the position of every >>atom/molecule in the teleportee's body, and then transmitting this >>info to the destination where the reciever gloms together assorted >>atoms according to the re- cording. Think about this for a minute. I thought about Niven's teleportation (and teleportation in general) and came up with the following fact: Teleportation MUST be bidirectional. What do you suppose whould happen if you put all of someone's molecules into a chamber that was already filled with air? If you can't visualize this, think of something along the lines of a huge explosion. Nasty result. Only half of the problem of teleportation is getting the stuff there. You gotta get rid of what's already there, too. A pretty good essay on the subject is contained in George O. Smith's _Venus_Equilateral_ (the last section of the book -- titled something lik "The Greater Triangle.") This, by the way, brings up another point. Niven says that his booths comply with the law of conservation of energy. If you have a two-way transportation, you really won't gain or loose much, so his booths wouldn't get as hot as you might expect. Differences in density would have to come out as heat, though. >Niven assumes (quite sensibly) that the teleported object *itself* >is transported, not a schematic of the object. All of my above argument assumes that the actual matter is moved, not just a signal sent. >(If a representation can be made, and a copy generated from that >representation, then what's to stop me from "beaming" a copy of me >to several receivers, generating me several times? It can get >ugly,...) _The_Commplete_Venus_Equilateral_ has a detailed discussion on this (in a pretty amusing story form -- recommended, if out-of-date). Think of what would happen if you recreated 10 $100 bills. Every one of them would be real, even though they contain the same serial number. Bet THAT would crash the economy! Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 87 23:37:37 GMT From: ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths One more note on teleportation. This comes from the Soul Rider series by Jack Chalker. He has a system where teleportation is done by supercomputers analyzing the atomic structure of the object to be teleported and then reproducing it at the other end out of a primal energy field called "flux". This works as expected with non-living objects and anamals: the computer analyzes a cow (or a t-bone steak) and then it can produce one anytime it wants and everyone eats. But it doesn't work quite that way with humans. If the computer makes a copy of a human without destroying the original, the copy comes into being comatose and soon dies. Same thing happens if the copy is made more than an hour after the original dies or two copies are made. The computers conclude that there exists a "soul" which will bind with only one body at a time and "goes away" after an hour without a body. Thus, where is no longer a problem of "well, I must have died when I was teleported" or of making two copies of a person. Also, medicine is easy: if someone is injured, kill him! Then the computer makes a new healthy copy and he's cured! (If you do it quick enough :-) Of course, this doesn't solve the problem of destroying the economy when someone makes 10 duplicates of a $10 bill (and because there is a super- computer in the loop, they can even get different serial numbers!) Ted Marshall Britton Lee, Inc. p-mail: 14600 Winchester Blvd, Los Gatos, Ca 95030 voice: (408)378-7000 uucp: ...!ucbvax!mtxinu!blia!ted ARPA: mtxinu!blia!ted@Berkeley.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 87 12:20 EDT From: SJONES@UMass.BITNET Subject: RE: Teleportation... Another method of 'teleportation' was pointed out to me by Bill Twomey (twomey@sunybcs) in a letter concerning jaunting. Anne McCaffrey's Pern series involves dragons which can transport themselves and anything about their person thru "Between" to another location, provided the dragon has a visualization of the destination. Dragons have little long-term memory (its rider, certain people, its weyr, other dragons), so the rider or another dragon must usually provide the visual memory. An added twist to this is that the dragons of Pern, bred up in size from small native 'fire lizards,' are also able to transport their riders thru time as well as or instead of space. The price of this is a great psychic and physical drain on the rider, although the dragons only feel strain on exceptionally long jumps (ex. Lessa's 400 year jump). Of course, it could be that the dragons are merely implementing one of the previously mentioned means of translocation internally. I don't recall reading any discussions of how they manage the feat, but perhaps there was an interview somewhere. It seemed to be treated rather 'mystically.' If I've trampled on any of the details, I expect some one will help out as I read the books quite some time ago. I would like to hear if anyone else thought that _Moreta_ was the best Pern book or not. Steve Jones BITNET: sjones@umass CSNET: sjones%hamp@umass-cs UUCP: ...seismo!UMASS.BITNET!sjones INTERNET:sjones%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu USSnail: box 753; Hampshire College; Amherst, MA 01002 ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 87 08:04:48 GMT From: mcgill-vision!mouse@rutgers.edu (der Mouse) Subject: Re: Methods of teleportation (Madeline L'Engle) carl@harlie.UUCP (Carl Greenberg) writes: >>> As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport >>> methods that have been used in SF stories. > There's always the good old "grab a chunk of space, yank, step > across" method where you either open a hole in spacetime and go > through or fold space up ("A Wrinkle in Time"). I would argue that A Wrinkle in Time is fantasy rather than SF. If you want to include fantasy, there are an awful lot that just punt and use unexplained mental power to teleport. An excellent book, A Wrinkle in Time; recommended to all. A good intro to fantasy books for a mundane. (What's this? A fantasy book that's a good story as well? Heresy (:-)!! We need more heresy like that.) USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse ARPAnet: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 87 08:41:27 GMT From: mcgill-vision!mouse@rutgers.edu (der Mouse) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: > In NECROMANCER by Gordon R. Dickson, members of the Chantry Guild > use ``no-time'', which is based on exactly determining the > velocity of the person or object to be teleported, which (by the > Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle) then makes that person/object's > position indeterminate, and thereby allows any destination to be > chosen. Reminds me of one which is effectively teleportation, though that's not quite how it's presented....Larry Niven again, a story called One Face. Paraphrasing the expository interlude....A Jumper creates an "overspace" such that the speed of light becomes infinite in the neighborhood of the ship. Someone at this point says "Almost infinite". No; "The speed of light goes all the way to infinity. Our speed is kept finite by the braking spine, which projects out of the effective neighborhood. Otherwise we'd go simultaneous: we'd be everywhere at once along a great circle of the universe." If that's not teleportation, I don't know what is. USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse ARPAnet: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 87 20:30:52 GMT From: schumann@puff.WISC.EDU (Christopher Schumann) Subject: Re: teleportation booths What about the Stargate? Instant teleportation to another gate (selected somehow) on a huge network of gates. (Tuned, I think) The book was _Stargate_ written by some author I forget. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 87 14:47:37 GMT From: kevin@ux.cs.man.ac.uk (Kevin Jones) Subject: Re: Jaunting. From: Derrick > The method of transportation used by the Tomorrow People > (British SF tv-series mentioned during last year's SF on TV > debate) was referred to as "Jaunting". I cannot remember how the > process was initiated, but I remember the transportation effect > was a transparent giant hand would wrap itself around the > transported person, who would then vanish. Does anyone else have > any further details? I do not remember the "Jaunting" being > mentioned in the discussion at all. I remember some of the details of this process - it actually metamorphosized as the show progressed. The process of Jaunting involved (relatively) instantaneous translation through a ``hyperspace'' (They occasionally got stuck there!). The process was instigated mentally, but they needed computer aided navigation! This was provided by the mechanism of Jaunting belts with the assistance of their sentient computer TIM. Without navigational aid a jaunting tomorrow person could end up reappearing in unpleasant locations (in the middle of a large mountain) - not recommended. This was one of the reasons why an initial ``breaking out'' (i.e. manifesting these abilities) was dangerous unless assisted. Most of this is masked by it being a number of years since watching the programs, but I've read some of the books more recently so it might be reasonably accurate 8^]. Kevin Jones JANET: kevin@uk.ac.man.cs.ux UUCP: mcvax!ukc!man.cs.ux!kevin ARPA: kevin%uk.ac.man.cs.ux@cs.ucl.ac.uk PHONE: (+44) 61 273 7121 Ext 5699 ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 87 01:31:12 GMT From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall) writes: >One more note on teleportation. This comes from the Soul Rider >series by Jack Chalker. He has a system where teleportation is done >by supercomputers analyzing the atomic structure of the object to >be teleported and then reproducing it at the other end out of a >primal energy field called "flux". Yes, I remember this too. Nice series of books, but Chalker does tend to get carried away on some topics (like sex). >This works as expected with non-living objects and animals: the >computer analyzes a cow (or a t-bone steak) and then it can produce >one anytime it wants and everyone eats. But it doesn't work quite >that way with humans. If the computer makes a copy of a human >without destroying the original, the copy comes into being comatose >and soon dies. Same thing happens if the copy is made more than an >hour after the original dies or two copies are made. The computers >conclude that there exists a "soul" which will bind with only one >body at a time and "goes away" after an hour without a body. The same type of thing happens in Farmer's "Riverworld" series. The main difference is that the new objects are made from more traditional enegry forms, instead of the "flux" stuff. Also in Riverworld, an appropriate device can gather souls of the departed and store them for an arbitrary amount of time. >Thus, where is no longer a problem of "well, I must have died when >I was teleported" or of making two copies of a person. Also, >medicine is easy: if someone is injured, kill him! Then the >computer makes a new healthy copy and he's cured! (If you do it >quick enough :-) In Riverworld, this makes a fast means of transportation, but random one: the persom is resurrected at some other (random) location. But that was done intentionally to the inhabitants. The builders could control the place of resurrection, by telling the computer. Note that after a certain (large) number of resurrections, the "soul" (Farmer calls it the "ka"), loses the affinity it had for the reconstructed body and goes away forever. In the Soulrider series, you needn't kill the person. You simply tell the computer what you want changed... >Of course, this doesn't solve the problem of destroying the economy >when someone makes 10 duplicates of a $10 bill (and because there >is a supercomputer in the loop, they can even get different >serial numbers!) Actually, who needs an economy when you have cheap transmutation? OK, a dollar bill is now useless. It can't, for example, buy a loaf of bread. But when a loaf of bread can be created for "free", who needs money? While we're at it, how about the "Well of Souls" series, also by Chalker. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Mar 87 0927-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #60 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 60 Today's Topics: Books - Hogan (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Feb 87 18:21:19 GMT From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.edu (lucius) Subject: James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy: error about evolution of Subject: aggression In the Giants trilogy, James P. Hogan postulates (among other things) a world where predators do not exist (except in the deep ocean). I will skip his theory of how evolution could work out to forbid predation and concentrate instead on something more clear-cut: he says that in the absence of predation, aggression will not exist. This has been shown to be false: some herbivores are among the meanest creatures around. Aggression has nothing at all to do with predation (although the weapons that are useful for one are useful for the other), except in cases of cannibalism. Predation consists of eating other creatures for food; aggression consists of threatening and/or attacking other creatures to prevent them from competing for resources and/or mates. It is obvious how competition for the latter two can easily occur without predation (limited resources, and a population free to breed at will, except for the afore-mentioned limits on resources). While evolution of creatures without aggression is possible, any type of organism is susceptible to developing aggression -- even sponges, which are scarcely more active than plants, and no more complex, have a form of aggression: different sponges (that is, from different zygotes, not multiple sponges formed by fragmentation of one sponge) of the same species cause necrosis of each others' tissues when they come in contact. The same sort of thing is seen in some sea anemones which are only slightly more active and complex (they sting each other). Apparently, James P. Hogan did not realize any of this at the time he wrote the Giants trilogy. Lucius Chiaraviglio lucius@tardis.harvard.edu seismo!tardis.harvard.edu!lucius lucius@borax.lcs.mit.edu seismo!borax.lcs.mit.edu!lucius ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 87 01:18:00 GMT From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Hogan I will try not to make my comments about the book into a spoiler, so my comments are mostly conclusions without examples. I have just finished reading "The Code of the Lifemaker" by James. Hogan. It is a real neat story. Actually, I got hooked to it after the first chapter. Such a wit!!! There isn't much of a plot, but that is not the point. The story does not really rely on the plot to do the job. It is a story about ourselves, our present state of progress. The story shows Hogan's disappointment in the average human intelligence(Nobody has lost any money by underestimating the intelligence of average Americans???!!! :-) It is basically the same "machine overwhelms the brain" thesis as applied in the "The Two Faces of Tomorrow" told in a different aspect. Hogan seems to think that it is ok to to spoil those who are kind of dumb. I cannot agree with that, but on the other hand, I do think the main character in the story was doing a service to those who have lots of money, and no brain(Shirley Maclaine?? No flame please Out on a Limb??? :-) Also I don't think every civilization has to go through a phase of religion dominance(oriental civilization is a good example). I can understand Hogan's frustration with pseudosciences. After all we get all kind of junk in the grocery store(Sun, Weekly News). In short, "The Code of the Lifemaker" is well written, and worth reading. Finally, I want to thank those who recommended the book, and for those who have not read it yet, I strongly recommend it. Eugene ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 87 03:20:15 GMT From: netxcom!ewiles@rutgers.edu (Edwin Wiles) Subject: Re: James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy: error about Subject: evolution... chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP (lucius) writes: >In the Giants trilogy, James P. Hogan postulates (among other >things) a world where predators do not exist (except in the deep >ocean). I will skip his theory of how evolution could work out to >forbid predation and concentrate instead on something more >clear-cut: he says that in the absence of predation, aggression >will not exist. This has been shown to be false: some herbivores >are among the meanest creatures around. The only herbivores that we have around to study most definitely evolved in a predator filled environment. Therefore an argument based on these 'aggressive' herbivores is fallacious. Ok, with that out of the way.... "...in the absence of predation, aggression will not exist." Given that predation exists, then aggression, by definition, also exists. (I think you'll agree to this.) Given that predation does not exist, then aggression, by definition, does not exist. (here's the sticky part...) Aggression: "1. an unprovoked attack or warlike act; 2. the practice or habit of being aggressive, or quarrelsome." Aggressive: "1. aggressing or inclined to aggress; starting fights or quarrels. 2. ready or willing to take issue or engage in direct action; militant." Aggress: "to attack, to start a quarrel or be the first to attack." Predation: "the method of existence of predatory animals." Predatory: "1. of, living by, or characterized by plundering, robbing, or exploiting others. 2. living by capturing and feeding upon other animals." Ok, predation can take two forms, Overt, and Covert. Overt being what is usually thought of, one animal eating another. Covert, being violent competition for resources of any sort, often between members of the same species. This is where Predatory #1 comes in...exploitation of others. If overt predation does not exist, then there are no predators to be overtly aggressive. So lack of overt predation rules out overt aggression. (Gee, half done!) If covert predation does not exist, then there is no competition between species for resources. Covert aggression is therefore also ruled out. See, both halves of aggression ruled out along with both halves of predation! Ok, flip it around: If aggression exists, then predation exists. Fairly easy, if you're aggressive, then you're trying to exploit some other being. Ergo, predation. If aggression does not exist, then predation does not exist. Also not too hard, if no one is behaving aggressively, then there is no exploitation, therefore no predation. It seems to work from both ends....without predation, which is exploitation of another, there is no reason for aggression. What do you say Lucius? Edwin Wiles seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles Net Express, Inc. 1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300 Vienna, VA 22180 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 87 05:54:05 GMT From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.edu (lucius) Subject: Re: James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy: error about Subject: evolution... The amount that the creatures have to worry about predation does not correlate with their aggression, as far as I know (that is, from reading about examples). I wish I could remember some examples of herbivores which do not suffer significant predation, but I need more than just elephants (which are, however, capable of getting angry and stampeding, and compete for mates in not the most friendly manner -- an aggressive behavior -- even though they did not suffer predation except possibly of old and weak individuals (even a lion won't mess with a grown elephant) until humans came along. ewiles@netxcom.UUCP (Edwin Wiles) writes: >"...in the absence of predation, aggression will not exist." > >Given that predation exists, then aggression, by definition, >also exists. (I think you'll agree to this.) No I do not. Predation is one way of getting food; the predator is not competing with the prey, but eating it. Lions do not hate their prey any more than we hate the meat we get at the supermarket (-: well, as long as it tastes decent for what we pay for it :-). >Given that predation does not exist, then aggression, by definition, >does not exist. (here's the sticky part...) Wrong, because the basis is false (see above). >Aggression: "1. an unprovoked attack or warlike act; 2. the >practice or habit of being aggressive, or quarrelsome." > >Aggressive: "1. aggressing or inclined to aggress; starting fights >or quarrels. 2. ready or willing to take issue or engage in direct >action; militant." > >Aggress: "to attack, to start a quarrel or be the first to attack." This definition is the one of choice for politics and non-scientific human relations, but it doesn't cut it for biology. For biology you have to add that it is only that which is an attempt to deal with competition. >Predation: "the method of existence of predatory animals." > >Predatory: "1. of, living by, or characterized by plundering, >robbing, or exploiting others. 2. living by capturing and feeding >upon other animals." Only #2 is correct for biology. >Ok, predation can take two forms, Overt, and Covert. Overt being >what is usually thought of, one animal eating another. Covert, >being violent competition for resources of any sort, often between >members of the same species. This is where Predatory #1 comes >in...exploitation of others. Predatory #1 is not predation in biology. Therefore, exploitation other than actually eating the exploited is not predation. >If overt predation does not exist, then there are no predators to >be overtly aggressive. So lack of overt predation rules out overt >aggression. (Gee, half done!) Wrong. What about fights for mates? These occur in herbivores independently of the level of predation (although under high threat of a predator coming the animals MIGHT not get into it as much as if the threat were not there). >If covert predation does not exist, then there is no competition >between species for resources. Covert aggression is therefore also >ruled out. See above. >See, both halves of aggression ruled out along with both halves of >predation! Only by redefining the words in a way unacceptable to standard biological terminology. > Ok, flip it around: > >If aggression exists, then predation exists. Only if you redefine the words as above. I refer you to Konrad Lorenz' _On_Aggression_. I can't say that everything in it is correct, but it will teach you the concept of what aggression is and how it is different from predation. Lucius Chiaraviglio lucius@tardis.harvard.edu seismo!tardis.harvard.edu!lucius lucius@borax.lcs.mit.edu seismo!borax.lcs.mit.edu!lucius ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 87 18:50:17 GMT From: loral!dml@rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) Subject: Nonaggression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP (lucius) writes: > In the Giants trilogy, James P. Hogan postulates (among >other things) a world where predators do not exist (except in the >deep ocean). I'll skip his theory of how evolution could work out >to forbid predation But that's the whole point! The factor that prevents predation also prevents ANY form of aggression. >something more clear-cut: he says that in the absence of >predation, aggression will not exist. This has been shown to be >false: some herbivores are among the meanest creatures around. That's not what he says at all. Listen very carefully: James P. Hogan postulates a physical, anatomical rationale for the absence of aggression in Minervan animals. Terrestrial animals rely on the primary circulatory system (bloodstream) to dispose of metabolic wastes. Hogan's Minervan animals evolved a secondary circulatory system for this purpose. Since the contents of this secondary system were toxic, no predator could survive an attempt to make a meal of any animal having this system. Over millions of years, the contents of this waste-disposal system became more and more concentrated. Predatory species, which had barely gotten started anyway, vanished entirely. The secondary system also inhibited non-predatory aggression. Any injury, however slight, carried a major risk of contaminating the primary circulatory system with concentrated wastes. Physical aggression was selected out, since even minor injuries would kill BOTH parties. Bone and horn guard plates were formed over joints and other vulnerable areas to minimize the chances of accidental injury. Now I, with my background in this dog-eat-dog (see how thoroughly it colors our outlook?) world of predators and aggressors, can't see any way for these critters to resolve the problem of there's-resources-for-N-animals-and-N+5- animals-want-to-use-them, but that may be more a matter of limited vision than fundamental impossibility. Anybody have ideas? Remember, physical violence is Right Out. Dave Lewis Loral Instrumentation San Diego loral!dml ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 01:44:58 GMT From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Nonaggression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes: >I can't see any way for these critters to resolve the problem of >there's-resources-for-N-animals-and-N+5- animals-want-to-use-them, >but that may be more a matter of limited vision than fundamental >impossibility. Anybody have ideas? Remember, physical violence is >Right Out. Not necessarily. I haven't read the Hogan books, but suppose you have two tribes of creatures competing. Tribe A sends a kamikaze into Tribe B. He runs around, kicking, fighting, biting, etc., trying to do as many death-dealing injuries as possible before he dies. If he can trade even 2 for 1 it works out. Keep in mind that the physical changes Hogan postulates would no doubt result in a different psychology that might well make this reasonable. Scott R. Turner ARPA: srt@ucla UUCP: {cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 21:37:13 GMT From: rlk@athena.mit.edu (Robert L Krawitz) Subject: Re: Nonaggression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy srt@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: >Not necessarily. I haven't read the Hogan books, but suppose you >have two tribes of creatures competing. Tribe A sends a kamikaze >into Tribe B. He runs around, kicking, fighting, biting, etc., >trying to do as many death-dealing injuries as possible before he >dies. If he can trade even 2 for 1 it works out. Keep in mind >that the physical changes Hogan postulates would no doubt result in >a different psychology that might well make this reasonable. One problem: the kamikaze trait would tend to get bred out of the population. The folks who could avoid this kamikaze role would tend to have more offspring. Of course, those individuals whose secondary circulatory systems were less poisonous might be able to survive longer in general. So I'd suspect that the secondary circulatory system would eventually get bred out of the population, or at least become less poisonous, since in the absence of predators the secondary system is an anti-survival trait. But then predation might start to become more efficient, so maybe the secondary system could redevelop...wonder if this would cause an oscillation? Robert ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Mar 87 0944-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #61 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 61 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Time Travel (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Jan 87 21:59:49 GMT From: iuvax!cdaf@rutgers.edu (Charles Daffinger) Subject: Time travel and energy prob's From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU >One of the things that disturbs me about all the talk that has gone >on about teleport/transfer booths is the blithe way people have >been talking about throwing away energy. The First (and only) >Commandment of the Univers is Thou Shalt Not Waste!! This leads me to a question of energy and time travel. Pardon my naivete, but if you are traveling from one time to another, are you not decreasing the energy and/or mass of the system you left (defining the system as the universe at a given point in time) and increasing that of the system you are entering? It seems to me to be a violation of the law of conservation of energy. charles Snail : Box 1662 Bloomington, In. 47402-1662 ATT : (812) 339-7354 USENET: cdaf@iuvax.csnet iuvax!cdaf BITNET: BCHC901@INDYCMS ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 87 05:32:28 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Time travel and energy prob's cdaf@iuvax.UUCP (Charles Daffinger) writes: >This leads me to a question of energy and time travel. Pardon my >naivete, but if you are traveling from one time to another, are you >not decreasing the energy and/or mass of the system you left >(defining the system as the universe at a given point in time) and >increasing that of the system you are entering? > >It seems to me to be a violatioof the law of conservation of >energy. If time travel is possible, then the law of conservation of mass/energy must operate over time as well; that is, the total energy of a system as considered over time must neither increase nor decrease. In this case, the total energy of the four-dimensional system (including time) will be neither increased nor decreased by time travel, although to observers not cognizant of the applicability of the law of conservation of mass/energy over time it will seem that mass/energy has decreased or increased, depending on which side of the trip they are observing. (To those looking from ``outside'' (if such a thing is possible), it would be obvious that mass/energy was conserved; it merely changed its four-dimensional location.) The whole idea of time travel is to change the four-dimensional location of an object or person in a way analogous to regular ``space'' (in the physice sense) travel changing the three-dimensional location of an object/person. Therefore, a necessary result is that mass/energy MUST be conserved over the four-dimensional space traversed, just as it is in three-dimensional space -- otherwise, you aren't traveling; but I'll be d*mned if I know what you *are* doing (besides glowing in the dark... :-). A side effect of this consideration is that the idea of an object's kinetic energy changing as it moves through time, as shown in BACK TO THE FUTURE -- which is ridiculous anyway; it would be POTENTIAL energy that was changing -- would not happen. If it did, it would violate the four-dimensional version of the law of conservation of mass/energy. Which then leaves the question of the effect of entropy in such a system; but if entropy is simply a measure of the distribution of mass/energy within the system, it would play no part in time travel anyway. Of course, I'm not exactly a temporal physicist; I'm just throwing out ideas. It makes sense when compared with what physics I know, but maybe someone who knows more about the physics of time can come up with a better explanation. (I doubt it; not because I believe I'm correct, but because we don't have any ability to test theories about time travel, so we simply can't know the ``truth'' about it at this point. It's all nothing more than speculation.) Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 781 6201 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 87 17:50:58 pst From: ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Hildum) Subject: Time travel In a previous letter, the concept of time was noted to be a perceptually based phenomena. I submit then that time travel is quite easy, and practiced daily by most people. Using the above concept of time, the act of remembering past events is a form of time travel - though perhaps rather limited, as one is forced into a purely passive role... Eric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 87 09:50:23 -0800 From: Jim Hester To: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.dec.com Subject: Re: "If man were meant to travel through time..." > Science fiction is not limited to literature since 1850 -- look at > DaVinci's sketches of human-powered flying machines, for example. While we're at it, let's go WAY back: Homer's Odyssey. Consider: A captain voyages beyond the scope of the known world, encountering strange creatures along the way. Note that this IS fiction (at least, I assume that Homer didn't think that Odysseus really did all of those things), and it is NOT fantasy since the science of Homer's day considered such adventures, if anything, more possible than our science considers, say, faster-than-light travel (or interstellar travel of any form, for that matter). I suppose you could make distinctions, by saying that Homer's tale could have been an elaboration of a true story, or by citing some aspect generally specific to the mythological realm. I distinguish this from mythology in that mythology was used to explain the world in terms of forces (gods) the people could understand. The Odyssey naturally made reference to those forces, but only by assuming their existence and using them as part of the existing universe (i.e., existence of gods was state-of-the-art science, therefore including them merely remained consistent with the laws of the universe, as Homer knew them). NOT including the gods might have been considered fantasy, back then! The main point was a journey outside of the known world, consistent with everything they believed possible back then. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 87 13:12 EDT From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire Subject: Loss/gain of energy in time travel. Glad to hear that people are finally mentioning this minor problem in Time Travel. Niven mentions it in his essay on Time Travel that appeared in All The Myriad Ways, but didn't really elaborate on how it could be solved. As I see it, time occurs in discrete units, like frames of film. If you move to another 'frame', you are sort of being 'matted-in', and are not violating any laws regarding creation of matter and energy. If you wait long enough, you'll show up in your own frame, just in time to see yourself leave. Simple, eh? For a VERY good treatment of looking at time in a different way, I suggest issue #4 of The Watchmen (DC comics). In it, there is a character called Dr. Manhattan to whom time is all simultaneous. He cannot prevent disasters in the future because to him, they are already happening. To him, everything is the present. It is implied though, that he has some measure of free will. The astonishing thing is that for him, anything he does is at best whim, since he already knows the eventual outcome of whatever he does. Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 87 20:08:46 GMT From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Loss/gain of energy in time travel. >As I see it, time occurs in dsicrete units, like frames of film. Well, close but not quite. Work being done in (at least) the fields of distributed and parallel algorithms seems to suggest that the more zen-like/philosophical ways of perceiving time are correct. Time is created by a sequence of observable events. If no observable event occurs, no time elapses. Ray Chen chen@gatech.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 17:59:19 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: Loss/gain of energy in time travel. chen@gt-stratus.UUCP (Ray Chen) writes: >Time is created by a sequence of observable events. If no >observable event occurs, no time elapses. Bull. If this were true, then you have a circular definition. The entire progress of time would stop if there were, for any reason, and no matter how short the time, no observable events. Becuase there'd be no progress of time until the next event happened, and with no time flow, the time when that event happened would never roll around. Consider the time between two events, anywhere in the universe, such as the movement of a photon, or something. If you have this quantum view of time, then in some interval, the photon will appear to be here, then suddenly there, from one time quanta to the next. And there's old Zeno again. In an entirely different vein... Say, speaking of Zeno, what if someone went back in a time machine and killed him before he became so confusing. Would we all be slower than tortoises? Think about it. ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 1 Feb 87 02:54:19 GMT From: reed!mirth@rutgers.edu (The Reedmage) Subject: Re: Loss/gain of energy in time travel. holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes: >chen@gt-stratus.UUCP (Ray Chen) writes: >>Time is created by a sequence of observable events. If no >>observable event occurs, no time elapses. >Bull. If this were true, then you have a circular definition. The >entire progress of time would stop if there were, for any reason, >and no matter how short the time, no observable events. Becuase >there'd be no progress of time until the next event happened, and >with no time flow, the time when that event happened would never >roll around. Consider the time between two events, anywhere in the >universe, such as the movement of a photon, or something. If you >have this quantum view of time, then in some interval, the photon >will appear to be here, then suddenly there, from one time quanta >to the next. Exactly! Given the quantum view of time, the photon *will* move in jumps which would seem jerky if we saw time in such small amounts. **But We Don't** So, if no time passes, so what? We don't notice it, that's all. You are looking at time in a linear fashion, and assuming a connection between the quanta -- a connection which may not exist. The universe need not stop just because nothing happens for a moment; we little biospecks on the surface of the 3rd planet of a backwater star happen to see time as a series of events that progresses in one direction only. Does that mean that this is the only possible interpretation? I am admittedly not an expert or even an informed layman, nor do I make any claim to be right, so others may explain this better than I do. But "the whole progress of time" need not exist as a "progress" at all. In some theories/hypotheses, it does, in others it doesn't. The only objection I have to Bruce's argument is that he denies the validity of the quantum view by saying that it claims a quantum view. Now who's circular? Might as well say that calling me "Ellen" is invalid because my name is spelled E-l-l-e-n. By definition, photons will jerk through the quanta. So that cannot be a basis for argument. (Bruce, this is not a flame. Your article didn't bother me at all, only its methodology). ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 87 13:36:13 GMT From: lifia!pasquier@rutgers.edu Subject: Time References Needed I am currently writing a commented bibliography about Time Travel. This will not be only a list of authors and their writings, but a real analysis of all the methods ever used in literature for travelling in time. I do not intend to (re)start here this already much discussed topic, but just ASK for your BEST REFERENCES about the novels and stories you know whose plot implies a significant travel of a person or material in the past or the future. Each reference of my present work (I already have about a hundred...) quotes the author, the title of the novel/novella/short story... and the date it has been written (or first published). But in order I could mention it in the right place, I also need a brief description of the way of time travelling used... My classification is based upon this. Among others, we can distinguish these most common methods: - subjective travel using mental power, drugs, imagination or dream... - one-way-only physical travel in future due to hibernation and artificial sleep, or to relativity spatial - time travel through temporal gates: hazardous travels due to electric-magnetic,nuclear and so on accidents, physical or emotional shocks or deliberate travels using natural gates, mental or magic power... - "technical" travels using time machines (all kind of...) In case the travel to another time implies more than sole observation, I discuss about the consequences of possible actions, especially on History. Please mail me your references. I'll make a summary of my work and post it in this newsgroup as soon as I feel satisfied with it... Michel B. Pasquier L.I.F.I.A. BP 68. 38402. St Martin d'Heres Cedex pasquier@lifia.UUCP {seismo.css.gov|mcvax|inria|imag}!lifia!pasquier ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 06:25:35 GMT From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Loss/gain of energy in time travel. holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes: >chen@gt-stratus.UUCP (Ray Chen) writes: >>Time is created by a sequence of observable events. If no >>observable event occurs, no time elapses. > >Bull. If this were true, then you have a circular definition. The >entire progress of time would stop if there were, for any reason, >and no matter how short the time, no observable events. You assume that time is necessary for events to happen. I'm turning it around. Movement in time is created by the occurence of events. If you have events, you have time-flow. If you have no events, no time *passes*. You still have time (that is, you can still determine that the current time is tick 42), it just hasn't moved forward. Time is totally event-driven. And yes, that implies that time-flow is quantum. So what? It may not even make sense to talk about time as a physical thing. Given this way of looking at time, it's more a concept than a thing. Ray ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 87 17:50:32 GMT From: endot!hinch@rutgers.edu (hold horns high) Subject: Re: Loss/gain of energy in time travel. chen@gt-stratus.UUCP (Ray Chen) writes: >Movement in time is created by the occurrence of events. If you >have events, you have time-flow. If you have no events, no time >*passes*. You still have time (that is, you can still determine >that the current time is tick 42), it just hasn't moved forward. >Time is totally event-driven. That contains the seed of an argument for God. It requires that future events be scheduled, and that an agent be responsible for advancing time to the point when each event is to occur. Worse, if time is event driven for us, it must be so for God, hence requiring a super-God, and so on. There are other problems as well. Check out algorithms for event driven simulation to see them. >And yes, that implies that time-flow is quantum. ... It does. On the other hand time may be quantized without requiring it to be event driven. Time may consist of an emission of indivisible scenarios, each one as big as the universe. That does not require time to be event driven, however, just as the frames on a movie are not event driven, but are a seeming continuum of frames. Frederick Hinchliffe 2nd ENDOT, Inc. 11001 Cedar Ave Cleveland, OH 44106 Usenet: decvax!cwruecmp!endot!hinch 216.229.8900 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Mar 87 0808-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #62 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 6 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 62 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Brin (4 msgs) & Kurtz (2 msgs) & L'Engle (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Feb 87 18:37:34 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: literature metrics (sort of) NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET writes: >>The most familiar example of this syndrome is Piers Anthony's >>Xanth Trilogy (ha!). As evidenced by some of his earlier work >>(Tarot, Omnivore, Macroscope, et al) he has the ability to be an >>excellent writer. Bang! along comes Xanth, and we lose another >>good storyteller, gaining yet another Alan Dean Hackwriter. > >Well, I can tell by previous postings that lots of people out there >agree with Ray's viewpoint, and that I'm about to lose credibility >with these people. However, I have to say that I much preferred >P.A.'s Xanth series to the Tarot series or Macroscope. (I haven't >read Omnivore, so I can't speak to that.) I don't think there's >enough interest in this for me to expand on exactly why, so I >won't. I will just state briefly (for the record, so to speak) >that for me the most important test of a good writer is his use of >words to convey his message. (Feminists and all others please note >- "his" is used in the classic, generic sense, referring to any >person, male or female.) As someone who grew up reading fairy >tales, I can suspend a lot of disbelief for someone who can delight >me with his choice of words. Plot, character development, good >scientific details, all of these are very important, but I consider >them secondary. Anyone want to continue the discussion?? Hear Hear! Nowhere does PA claim that Xanth is serious reading! They are however *fun* to read! The series as a whole has deteriorated maybe because the man has started doing all sorts of strange things to the plots to get a good pun in there somewhere at the expense of a sensible plot. The first 3 were really good library book read (you don't think I'd want to read a Xanth book more than once do you? :-), the plots made enough sense to hang all the gratutitous joke off whilst still going somewhere and there was some characterisation. (At least as much as the is in classics like Sleeping Beauty et al.) not only that but the jokes were funny. I'm not saying everybody should rave about these books as being the best thing since (insert favourite book) but they are *not* as awful as everybody seems to claim, neither are they his best work. I prefer Macroscope and the Magic/technology crossovers he seems to do so well. Right I've said it, now lend me an asbestos jacket. Piers Cawley ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 87 21:41:09 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Anthony Theory of Ramifications >Completely aside from the fact that Piers Anthony has been >rehashing the same old jokes over and over again since he began >(and I LOVE puns!), I HAD to stop reading his works >because.......... Anthony must BELIEVE that there are separate >lists of qualities for men and women..... Anthony seems to have a number of techniques for keeping away writer's block, most of which seem to add up to not having anything to block. Obsessively basing his books on games (life, sprouts, scissors-paper-stone...) or other patterns is one. Another is his belief that anything that was funny once is still funny. Then there's the Anthony Theory of Ramifications which states that skill in one area carries over into areas that are related pragmatically, semantically, syntacticly or phonologically. For example, if a Piers Anthony character is a skilled tracker, he will probably also be skilled at any task which involves pattern recognition -- analyzing satellite photos, for example -- because that is what trackers do. He'll also have an intimate understanding of animals. He'll be able to carry his forest skills over to a city because prey acts in consistent ways. If the book is not pure science fiction he'll probably also be able to perform miracles with eight-track tape and be a star at track meets. (This 'theory', of course runs counter to what we think we know about human skills. In actual fact, there isn't even much carryover from skill at, say, tennis to skill at ping-pong or badminton.) Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 87 23:13:32 GMT From: clark@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Clark Quinn) Subject: Brin's Uplift War? My friend (who currently doesn't have access to the net) brought this question up and we both are interested in the answer. Having enjoyed Sun-Diver and Startide Rising (I also particularly enjoyed The Postman), we are wondering when the sequel is coming. Startide Rising clearly left some loose ends that begged for a sequel, and we have both heard that the new book already has the title The Uplift War, so we are curious as to where this book is and when it will come out. Does anyone have any information? I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I was busy qualifying and haven't been able to read the news as much as I'd like. I would appreciate someone mailing me a reply (even if it is posted, too). Thanks in advance, Clark N. Quinn Institute for Cognitive Science C-015 University of California, San Diego La Jolla, California 92093 (619) 534-5996 (UCSD): (619) 457-1274 (Home) {ucbvax,decvax,akgua,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!sdics!clark.uucp clark@nprdc.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 15 Feb 87 07:10:42 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Brin's Uplift War? clark@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Clark Quinn) writes: >Having enjoyed Sun-Diver and Startide Rising (I also particularly >enjoyed The Postman), we are wondering when the sequel is coming. >[...] and we have both heard that the new book already has the >title The Uplift War, so we are curious as to where this book is >and when it will come out. Does anyone have any information? Good news: it should be out fairly quickly, like within the next six weeks. Bad news: the initial publication is a limited edition hardback. I haven't seen a schedule on a regular hardback, so I don't think we'll see that until at least August (if ever, I don't know if Brin has cut a hardcover deal yet). Paperback probably won't show up until at least first quarter 88, although if there isn't a regular hardcover it may be sooner. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 04:52:17 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Brin's Uplift War? [oops] I should never trust my memory. I just looked this up. The paperback is due out this summer from Bantam -- probably in the July or August lists, but I'm not positive. Expect to see it in the stores either in late June or July in paperback. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 07:10:58 GMT From: viper!dave@rutgers.edu (David Messer) Subject: Re: The Uplift War I heard a rumor that "The Uplift War" was comming out before Minicon (David Brin is GOH). That would put it before April or so. David Messer Lynx Data Systems {amdahl|ihnp4|rutgers}!dayton!viper!dave ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 25 Feb 1987 06:46:26-PST From: devi%mailer.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Katherine Kurtz Any news on when the last book in the latest Deryni triology will be coming out? I've always wondered whether Camber is really dead, or just waiting for someone to release him from the death-defying spell that he was able to place on himself in the first series....Ms. Kurtz was a little hazy about Camber's death/non-death. And what about Rhys' daughter. According to the geneology charts she lived to be about 91 years old, and Rhys predicted that she would be the greatest healer around. Nary a word. So many potential story-lines! And Ms. Kurtz' writing just keeps getting better and better! Gita ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 87 18:50:50 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz Verily, I will answer this before my sister minister-without-portfolio in the East seeth it (Hi, Alison!). devi%mailer.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes: >Any news on when the last book in the latest Deryni triology will >be coming out? I've always wondered whether Camber is really dead, >or just waiting for someone to release him from the death-defying >spell that he was able to place on himself in the first >series....Ms. Kurtz was a little hazy about Camber's >death/non-death. I have in my hand a copy of "The Quest for Saint Camber", which came out in hardcover last year but is not yet out in paperback. It is not up to par with the previous books, but I will not give spoilers here. Also, do you know of the collection of short stories which is out in paperback, called "Deryni Archives"? It is excellent. And I have heard for some time of a book called "Codex Derynianus" which was supposed to be out from a small press. It is listed in Books in Print and a store owner told me he had seen one (1) copy of it, but I have not been able to find it anywhere. Change of Hobbit, the large sf bookstore in Santa Monica, says it's spurious. >And what about Rhys' daughter. According to the geneology charts >she lived to be about 91 years old, and Rhys predicted that she >would be the greatest healer around. Nary a word. So many >potential story-lines! And Ms. Kurtz' writing just keeps getting >better and better! Yes, I'd like to hear about her. I'd *really* like to know how Cinhil's son Rhys fared as king, and *especially* how in hell he came to marry Michaela Drummond; not a geneology that would be approved by the Regents, there... About Ms. Kurtz's writing, I'm afraid I have to disagree; her stories are fascinating but her writing is cliched. Duncan, in trance, recalls his secret marriage: "Innocent that I was, it never occurred to me that our one painfully brief union might have borne fruit." OUCH. Drop me a line if you'd like to trade Deryni speculation (or filks), but you should read QfSC first... Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 1987 16:34:35-EST From: clapper@NADC Subject: Re: Teleportation Does anyone remember (or has anyone already mentioned) a rather whimsical young-adult story called "A Wrinkle In Time" by Madeleine L'Engle? There are two things that stick in my mind about this story, which I read way back in seventh grade: 1 - It used a teleportation method called a tesseract. The author (through one of the strange protagonists) described it by analogy as similar to an insect walking across a piece of fabric. If a person folds the fabric so that the far end meets with the spot on which the insect is walking, the insect will cross the fold. When the fabric is unfolded, Lo and Behold! the insect has traveled the entire length of the material without really walking far at all. difference in the explanation). At the time, I didn't know that "tesseract" was a real mathematical term; later, when that concept was introduced to me, I recalled this story with a smile. 2 - The book actually starts out with the phrase, "It was a dark and stormy night...". I can still picture Snoopy sitting on his doghouse pounding out the first draft of "A Wrinkle in Time". :-) Brian M. Clapper Naval Air Development Center Warminster, PA ARPA: clapper@nadc UUCP: ...harvard!clapper@nadc.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 87 23:23:21 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu (becky) Subject: Re: Madeline L'Engle (was Teleportation) clapper@nadc writes: >Does anyone remember (or has anyone already mentioned) a rather >whimsical young-adult story called "A Wrinkle In Time" by Madeleine >L'Engle? I certainly do! Madeline L'Engle has written several almost-sf/fantasy `juveniles', and all are very good. I particularly recommend "The Young Unicorns", my personal favourite, although "Wrinkle" is her most famous work. As far as I can tell, all of her books are related by minor characters, and involve three different generations. She can get a bit carried away where Loving Others is concerned, but since it's a good ideal I'm willing let it pass. She's an excellent writer, and she's not afraid to approach subjects that were quite taboo when she started writing. I recommend her books to readers of all ages and all genres. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 87 05:56:21 GMT From: randolph%cognito@Sun.COM (Randolph) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works tmca@ut-ngp.UUCP (Tim Abbott) writes about George R. Stewart's *Earth Abides*: >For such a remarkably good novel, I am amazed by its relative >obscurity, even within sf fandom. It took me several trips to the >local second-hand bookshop to find it (they have an excellent >stock), it was republished shortly after I found my copy but I have >no idea of the extent of its distribution. The novel is very widely known in the San Francisco Bay Area, since Geo. R. Stewart was a well known writer who lived in Berkeley at a time when there were very few writers on the west coast. I suspect every California public library has a copy -- not shelved under sf. Incidentally, Stewart also wrote a book called *Storm* (about the life of a storm) which introduced the custom of naming tropical storms. Randolph Fritz rfritz@sun.com rfritz@sun.uucp ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 87 09:23:51 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Madeleine L'Engle (was Teleportation) From: sq!becky (Becky Slocombe) > ...Madeline L'Engle has written several almost-sf/fantasy > `juveniles', and all are very good. I particularly recommend "The > Young Unicorns", my personal favourite, although "Wrinkle" is her > most famous work. My favorite of hers is still A RING OF ENDLESS LIGHT, which is definitely sf/fantasy (one of the main characters is able to communicate telepathically with dolphins). My favorite non-juvenile of hers is A SEVERED WASP, which is sf only by the very loosest of definitions (internal chronology places the events as happening in the mid-1990's, but for all intents and purposes, it reads like a contemporary novel). > As far as I can tell, all of her books are related by minor > characters, and involve three different generations. Quite true. Well, actually only two generations. The children of Calvin O'Keefe and Meg Murry (from the Time Trilogy) are the protagonists or supporting characters in three other novels. Other minor supporting characters do link up almost every other novel of hers. The only ones that don't seem to connect in any way are ILSA (her second novel) and THE LOVE LETTERS. Her most recent novel, MANY WATERS, has a chart on the end-papers showing the various character connections. There is at least one that I know of that isn't mentioned, though. > She can get a bit carried away where Loving Others is concerned, > but since it's a good ideal I'm willing let it pass. She's an > excellent writer, and she's not afraid to approach subjects that > were quite taboo when she started writing. I recommend her books > to readers of all ages and all genres. I'll second the recommendation. She's one of my favorite writers. Surprisingly enough, I consider the Time Trilogy to be amongst her lesser works. I'd read most of her other novels before reading the Time Trilogy, and I was somewhat disappointed in the latter. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Mar 87 0843-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #63 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 6 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 63 Today's Topics: Television - Doctor Who (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Feb 87 16:43:00 GMT From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU Subject: Dr. Who and the Computers I have been watching Dr. Who on TV these days(Yes, the first time). Does anyone know why the computers in Dr.Who series are always bad? The robots are even worse(Dalex??!!). Why was the auther of the series so afraid of the computers, and related technologies? I guess it is another one of those paranoia of the 50's. I prefer to think the computers as they were depicted in "The Two Faces of Tomorrow". I mean as something that is neither against or for the humanistic ethics. I have recently seen some SF movies of the 50's. BOY, they were unbelievably paranoid(Especially the worlds at war). Now, I begin to understand why people went crazy when someone broadcasted the "Martians are landing" story (by olson Wells). I cannot remember people's names very well). It is interesting to see the movies of 80's full of high tech images. I guess people are getting used to computers now. I think the basic problem is who is in control. I think it will be beneficial to us if we learn that it is health to forfeit the controls which we are not good at, and in general realize that there is no scientific law which garantees that we are superior in any way than the machines we build. Eugene ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 00:13:53 GMT From: langbein@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (John E. Langbein) Subject: Re: Dr. Who and the Computers xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes: > I have been watching Dr. Who on TV these days(Yes, the first > time). Does anyone know why the computers in Dr.Who series are > always bad? No, not always. > The robots are even worse(Dalex??!!). Why was the auther of the > series so afraid of the computers, and related technologies? I > guess it is another one of those paranoia of the 50's. I prefer > to think the computers as they were depicted in "The Two Faces of > Tomorrow". I mean as something that is neither against or for the > humanistic ethics. I don't think it was a fear of computers, as much as a fear of what unknown things could be done by computers. Doctor Who was a show started in 1963. Much of the early stories (minus the Daleks) were somewhat historical in context (for a good part), or not about computers. It seems if computers were so feared, the Doctor wouldn't of had one in his Tardis. The Daleks, by the way, are mutants. They have no physical bodies, and use the containers to move around and live. For the most part, the Daleks are computeristicly thinking (they forget they were onxe biological bi-peds of the humanoid race [watch Genesis of the Daleks, a Tom Baker story]). In "The Face of Evil" the computer was demented only due to human error (actually, the Doctor's error). It was not bad. In a John Pertwee story (the name slips my mind, but it was the last one with the companion Jo Grant [Katy Manning(sp?)]), the computer did become more powerful. Another story, the Robot's turned on the humans only because another human re-programmed them to do so(ROBOT was one of those stories). See, It does go both ways. > I have recently seen some SF movies of the 50's. BOY, they > were unbelievably paranoid(Especially the worlds at war). Now, I > begin to understand why people went crazy when someone broadcasted > the "Martians are landing" story (by olson Wells. I cannot > remember people's names very well). Yes, It is Orson Welles, and the story was "War of the Worlds", a classic piece of "SF" literature (personal opinion). The writer slips my mind for a minute. > It is interesting to see the movies of 80's full of high tech > images. I guess people are getting used to computers now. I > think the basic problem is who is in control. I think it will be > beneficial to us if we learn that it is health to forfeit the > controls which we are not good at, and in general realize that > there is no scientific law which garantees that we are superior in > any way than the machines we build. Remember, something that is created is no better than the one(s) who created it. I think that sums up my feelings. John E. Langbein Phone : 878-0594 45 Brinckerhoff Avenue Freehold, N.J. 07728 ARPAnet: langbein@topaz Usenet : caip!topaz!langbein ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 00:53:04 GMT From: ut-ngp!tmca@rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Re: Dr. Who and the Computers xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes: > I have been watching Dr. Who on TV these days(Yes, the first > time). Does anyone know why the computers in Dr.Who series are > always bad? The robots are even worse(Dalex??!!). Why was the > auther of the series so afraid of the computers, and related > technologies? I guess it is another one of those paranoia of the > 50's. I prefer to think the computers as they were depicted in > "The Two Faces of Tomorrow". I mean as something that is neither > against or for the humanistic ethics. > I have recently seen some SF movies of the 50's. BOY, they > were unbelievably paranoid(Especially the worlds at war). Now, I > begin to understand why people went crazy when someone broadcasted > the "Martians are landing" story (Was is by olson Wells. I cannot > remember people's names very well). > It is interesting to see the movies of 80's full of high tech > images. I guess people are getting used to computers now. I > think the basic problem is who is in control. I think it will be > beneficial to us if we learn that it is health to forfeit the > controls which we are not good at, and in general realize that > there is no scientific law which garantees that we are superior in > any way than the machines we build. 'Careful with that axe Eugene' (Sorry, couldn't resist that) articles like that start wars - so here's the first round: First: they're Daleks (and they aren't robots or computers as you seem to imply) and he's Orson Welles. Dr. Who isn't 50's paranoia - I used to hide behind the settee at the nasty bits when they were first shown (in England) in the 70's, which was half the thrill - they were SCARY. It seems to me that your attitude towards the older SF is a little patronizing; after all, when these films/books/etc came out computers were large menacing looking objects, not the nice, unimposing little white boxes sitting tidily on your desk. Also, the world in general was just beginning to come to terms with the idea of 'hi-tech' as we call it, and didn't really have much idea as to where it was leading. As will always happen, people were frightened by things they didn't understand and this is reflected in the high incidence of paranoiac themes in the SF of a couple of decades ago. In some senses I find this a little more stimulating than the hi-tech, meaningless swashbuckling we get now, full of flashy imagery that it might be. Perhaps it echoes a superficial approach to things scientific that SF fans of a couple of decades hence will see in the 80's. Besides, the main aim of SF is to pose the question: 'What might happen if...' In the 50s and 60s this was popularly:'What might happen if the Martians invaded the Earth?', today we have:'What would happen if I made a film using all the high tech gadgetry now available to me, and how much would it gross?' Sorry if this seems a little incoherent - it's just that they're about to shut down this computer for maintenance and I felt a point had to be made. Incidentally, I have absolutely no problem with who's in control user/computer -wise - I do everything that this machine tells me to. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go and polish its CPU. P.S. I just thought of something: How can you say that they made paranoid films in the fifties when the most popular sf film of last year was ALIENS? Sheesh,I just know there's a face-hugger hiding in my closet. AAAAAARRRRGGHHHHH!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 03:10:28 GMT From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Dr. Who and the Computers langbein@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (John E. Langbein) writes: > In a John Pertwee story (the name slips my mind, but it was the > last one with the companion Jo Grant [Katy Manning(sp?)]), the > computer did become more powerful. The name of the episode was The Green Death. >> I have recently seen some SF movies of the 50's. BOY, they >> were unbelievably paranoid(Especially the worlds at war). Now, I >> begin to understand why people went crazy when someone >> broadcasted the "Martians are landing" story ( by Orson Welles. >> I cannot remember people's names very well). > Yes, It is Orson Welles, and the story was "War of the Worlds", a > classic piece of "SF" literature (personal opinion). The writer > slips my mind for a minute. The radio Show was by Orson Welles the original Novel By H.G. Wells Cheers, Stephen Pearl VOICE: (201)932-3465 US MAIL: LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903 UUCP: ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl ARPA: PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 16:20:53 GMT From: gh@ukc.ac.uk (G.Hocking) Subject: Re: Dr. Who and the Computers xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes: >why people went crazy when someone broadcasted the "Martians are >landing" story (by olson Wells. I cannot remember people's >names very well). "War of the Worlds" (the book you are referring to) was written by H.G.Wells, and the radio version which caused all the panic was narrated by Orson Welles (no relation - note the difference in spelling) Gary Hocking ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 00:42:00 GMT From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Dr. Who and the Computers John Langbein wrote: > Remember, something that is created is no better than the >one(s) who created it. I think that sums up my feelings. I agree that as long as the machine does not modify itself, it cannot improve itself. However, if we give the machine the ability to learn, and modefy itself, it will soon learn something we do not know. Computer checker is a perfect example. The computer beated its programmer. Well, you might argue that the computer did this because its speed. My point is more fundamental: In principle, there is nothing to prevent a learning computer to get smarter, and smarter. Of course, I am talking about a very sophisticated computer which can manufacture VLSI for itself, and of course improve its design along the way. I think that is what James Hogan was trying to say in "The Two Faces of Tomorrow". One might say that computers do not think. It is just a bunch of electronics signal running around. I suggest we look at what is going on inside our brain physically. It is just as bad--bunch of neurons firing chemicals at each other. Who is there to say who is better? So far the computer has been learning exclusively from us. As long as this is the case, it cannot be better than us. However, once we give it the ability to learn from nature, everything changes. Eugene ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 87 22:03:00 GMT From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Dr. Who and the Computers tmca@ut-ngp.UUCP writes: >Incidentally, I have absolutely no problem with who's in control >user/computer -wise - I do everything that this machine tells me >to. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go and polish its CPU. > >P.S. I just thought of something: How can you say that they made >paranoid films in the fifties when the most popular sf film of last >year was ALIENS? Sheesh,I just know there's a face-hugger hiding in >my closet. AAAAAARRRRGGHHHHH!!!!!! These are real good lines. Thank you for the wit. The CPU here goes down every other day. As to Aliens being very popular, I don't think it is because Aliens is a sf movie, rather it is because it is a horror movie. By the way Aliens is not a story of computer anyway. I believe Aliens is in the same category which "Friday the Thirteen" series belong to.(No flame please. I know that series is pretty bad. I am just here to make a point). Oh I have another question here about Dr. Who series. I watched one episode about the Daleks(This time I spell it right??!!). However, it did not finish at all. It is about the Daleks on a planet with a huge refrigeration unit(large enough to freeze an ocean??) The Daleks used some kind of bacteria to attack humans. The episode was cut half way. The last scene I saw was when the bacteria was released prematurely by an accident. Can anyone tell me how did that episode end? Eugene ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 87 18:25:24 GMT From: rwn@ihuxe.ATT.COM (Bob Neumann) Subject: Invasion Earth 2150 A.D. Last nite I couldn't sleep. About 12:30 in the morning I turned on WGN-TV (channel 9 in Chicago) and they were showing the movie "Invasion Earth 2150 A.D." which was a full-length feature film on the Dalek invasion of earth (one of the early DR WHO episodes). Having seen all the early black and white episodes in Chicago on WTTW a few months ago, seeing this movie was great. I missed the introduction (and I couldn't stay awake for the ending -I did have to work the next day), but the movie WAS GREAT! Peter Cushing plays the doctor -in an interesting charicature that was different from any of the TV doctors - and the movie was in color. The "flying saucer" spaceship looked cool. In fact, the insides of the ship, inclusive of the flashing lights and "cheap" controls were reminiscent of the insides of the Thunderbird crafts from the Gerry Anderson TV series. Anyone know if Gerry Anderson's people were involved with the special effects in thois movie.? I'd like to see the movie in its entirety (some evening when I'm not half asleep). Is the flick available on videotape? Bob Neumann ------------------------------ Date: 2 Mar 87 19:27:34 GMT From: view3b5@ihlpl.ATT.COM (Pruitt) Subject: Re: Invasion Earth 2150 A.D. rwn@ihuxe.ATT.COM (Bob Neumann) writes: > Last nite I couldn't sleep. About 12:30 in the morning I turned > on WGN-TV (channel 9 in Chicago) and they were showing the movie > "Invasion Earth 2150 A.D." which was a full-length feature film on > the Dalek invasion of earth (one of the early DR WHO episodes). > > I'd like to see the movie in its entirety (some evening when I'm > not half asleep). Is the flick available on videotape? The January 1987 issue of Video magazine lists the movie as now being available on tape. It is distrubuted by HBO/Cannon. How they can ask such a price for this grade C movie with a straight face is beyond me. However, since it is available on tape, I'm sure it can be rented at some of the bigger video stores. You might have to ask them to order it and they might be mad at you after they see what they have gotten. :-) Hope this helps.... Kit Kimes AT&T-IS Naperville, Il ...ihnp4!iwvae!kimes ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Mar 87 0853-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #64 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 6 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 64 Today's Topics: Books - Ballard & Donaldson (9 msgs) & LeGuin (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Feb 87 8:09:31 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Cc: donn@utah-cs.arpa Subject: Ballard's MYTHS OF THE NEAR FUTURE Some weeks back, Donn Seeley posted a consolidated review of six different SF collections. That review prompted me to look for those books at the local library, and I found some of them. This is in regard to a comment of his in that posting wherein he said, regarding the subject book by Ballard: "Unfortunately Triad Granada didn't see fit to print the original publication information for the stories in this book, so I don't know if they come from a cross-section of Ballard's career, as they appear to." Well, the library's copy of MYTHS OF THE NEAR FUTURE is another edition, in hardback. It's published by Jonathan Cape Ltd., Thirty Bedford Square, London. This edition DOES contain at least the following publishing history info for the stories in this volume: "The following stories originally appeared in these publications: AMBIT,'The Intensive Care Unit' (1977), 'Zodiac 2000' (1978); BANANAS, 'The Smile' (1976), 'The Dead Time' (1977), 'Theatre of War' (1977), 'Having A Wonderful Time' (1978), 'Motel Architecture' (1978); TIME OUT, 'A Host Of Furious Fancies' (1980)." Now, this does NOT include all the stories in the book; 'News From The Sun' and 'Myths Of The Near Future' are not listed, so maybe this book was the original publication of those two. I don't recognize the names of the publications listed above; I suppose they are small British literary journals or fanzines? Of course, the "publication date" info does not necessarily mean that the stories were actually written at those times; they could have been written much earlier and not published until then. To know that, we would have to ask Ballard himself... But at least the publication history spans only a few years, from the late '70s to 1982 (the book's copyright date). Just thought I'd send this out to provide the data for the record. Regards, Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 87 18:49:30 GMT From: jhunix!ins_aprm@rutgers.edu (Paul R Markowitz) Subject: Donaldson (SPOILER for TMOHD) All the Donaldson talk recently has centered on the Covenant series. This topic has been hashed and rehashed for a long time. I would like to carry it to his new series, started in The Mirror Of Her Dreams. I liked the Covenant books, although I had some problems accepting Covanent as a person, I got tired of the setting, and I thought more should have happened. Covenant is a very verbose writer and when reading his books, my eyes sometimes skipped passages, to avoid boredom. I recently read The Mirror Of Her Dreams. This is a much better book than the Covenant books were. The main character is more believable. She is a woman who has problems believing in herself. He doesn't need a disease like leprosy to get the point of the character across, she is an ordinary girl. All she lacks is self confidence. She is more believable to the reader and a more sympathetic character. The world presented in this book is not at all like The Land. It is also more believable. It is a quasi-medieval world in which mirrors perform strange functions. The setting makes sense and is a vital part of the story. The thing that really makes this series better than the Covenant series is the plot. Donaldson is still verbose, but in this case it leads somewhere. Things actually happen in this book. The reader spends less time having a love-hate relationship with the main character and more time getting involved with what turns out to be an exciting story. Another advantage this story has is the believability of supporting characters. There are many characters that act in human ways. The treatment of King Joyse, and what's-his-name (the one who should be her boyfriend; I'll remember it eventually) shows very real and very human characterizations. The people of The Land existed. These live. All in all, The Mirror of her Dreams is a much better book than the Covenant series, and I can't wait until the rest of the series comes out. Paul Markowitz seismo!umcp-cs!jhunix!ins_aprm bitnet: ins_aprm at jhuvms arpanet: paul@hopkins-eecs-bravo.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 87 06:58:10 GMT From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: Donaldson A thought: for Covenant to prove the Land to be real, he could have done the following: 1) When in the Land, do some long mathematical calculation (i.e. e to 100 places and then memorize the last 5). 2) When in the "real" world, repeat the calculation and see if the result is the same. Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 15:45:47 GMT From: khudson@hawk (Urlord) Subject: Re: Donaldson ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) writes: >A thought: for Covenant to prove the Land to be real, he could have >done the following: > >1) When in the Land, do some long mathematical calculation (i.e. e > to 100 places and then memorize the last 5). >2) When in the "real" world, repeat the calculation and see if the > result is the same. This would not have worked. When you do calculations on paper the actual figuring of the numbers is done in the mind. If you do them with some form of a calculator, the techniques the calculator uses are the same that the mind uses. Covenant was worried that the Land was all in his mind: a sign that he was going mad. Therefore any calculations that he did in the Land would be done in his mind, the same place that calculations are done in the "real" world. He would have gotten the same answer in either place. Besides how can he be sure that any calculations done in the "real" world are the correct ones :^). Kevin Hudson UUCP: wanginst!ulowell!khudson@hawk ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 87 05:58:24 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Donaldson: Anyone actually READ MOHD? We've had the TC argument many times now and mostly what we determine is that taste is unfathomable. SInce I started this thing, could I repeat my orginal question: Has anyone read _The Mirror of Her Dreams_, and if so, what did they think of it? C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 87 17:54:26 GMT From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.edu (lucius) Subject: Re: Donaldson khudson@hawk writes: > ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) writes: >>1) When in the Land, do some long mathematical calculation (i.e. e >> to 100 places and then memorize the last 5). You shouldn't go to 100 places (unless you have photographic memory or something) -- it's a real pain and you'll probably mess up whether in the real world or an imaginary one. 15 is more reasonable. >>2) When in the "real" world, repeat the calculation and see if the >> result is the same. > This would not have worked. When you do calculations on paper the > actual figuring of the numbers is done in the mind. If you do > them with some form of a calculator, the techniques the calculator > uses are the same that the mind uses. Covenant was worried that > the Land was all in his mind: a sign that he was going mad. > Therefore any calculations that he did in the Land would be done > in his mind, the same place that calculations are done in the > "real" world. He would have gotten the same answer in either > place. If you're dreaming, it's likely that things which will seem right during the dream (and thus the calculations you do there) will actually be wrong, and you'll notice this because when you wake up you will be sane(r) and do them right in the real world (assuming you don't mess up). Also, if you do the calculations on paper (as most people will have to for numbers more than a couple of digits long), the numbers will stay as they are on real paper (which stores them independently of how good your memory is) but will mutate on imaginary paper, thus causing the results of your calculation to come out wrong in the dream-world, whereas you have a fairly good chance of getting them right in the real world. If both worlds are real this problem will not occur, and the results will likely agree. Lucius Chiaraviglio lucius@tardis.harvard.edu seismo!tardis!lucius lucius@borax.lcs.mit.edu seismo!borax!lucius ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 87 23:28:44 GMT From: victorr@copper.TEK.COM (Victor Riley) Subject: Re: Donaldson We have been discussing the writing of Stephen Donaldson, especially the Covenant series, for some time and it appears most people either really like the stories or really hated them. I myself liked them. For those that didn't like the stories, have you tried reading his mystery novel "The Man Who Killed His Brother"? It was written under his alias Reed Stephens in 1980. Now a question to those that have connections with publishers. Does anyone have any firm dates as to when Donaldson will release the third trilogy in the TC series? I talked with him a few years back at a sci-fi convention about the next trilogy and he gave me vague ideas about the story line but no release dates. Victor Riley Tektronix CASE Division tektronix!copper!victorr ------------------------------ Date: 10-Feb-1987 1138 From: roberts%utrtsc.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Nigel Roberts, TSC Utrecht) Subject: Mordant's Need I just finished _The Mirror of her Dreams_, which is a hardback containing the first two books of Stephen Donaldson's new trilogy _Mordant's Need_. I found it to be full of original ideas, but it seems to me that the plot moves very slowly until the end of each book when there's a dramatic cliff- hanger. This slow-buildup, dramatic gesture, slow buildup, even more dramatic gesture reminds me of a musical form, though I don't remember what it's called. It's obviously a book which demands re-reading. Anyone know when the concluding volume will come out? Nigel Roberts Utrecht, The Netherlands ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 87 01:50:30 GMT From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: Donaldson I am capable of getting the places 96 to 100 of e if I use a pencil and paper and take quite some time to do it. I cannot do it in my head, and I doubt very much that Covenant could. I can imagine being in the Land. I can imagine meeting giants, I can imagine battles, etc... but I cannot actually come up with a correct answer from an attempt to imagine doing a calculation that, if really done, would require the use of a great deal of time and a paper and pencil. If Covenant had done this, and gotten a correct answer, the correctness of the answer would have shown that he actually had a pencil and paper and did a real calculation, and didn't just imagine it. Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 17:05:17 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Donaldson ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) writes: >I can imagine being in the Land. I can imagine meeting giants, I >can imagine battles, etc... but I cannot actually come up with a >correct answer from an attempt to imagine doing a calculation that, >if really done, would require the use of a great deal of time and a >paper and pencil. > >If Covenant had done this, and gotten a correct answer, the >correctness of the answer would have shown that he actually had a >pencil and paper and did a real calculation, and didn't just >imagine it. The human mind is quite capable of performing the kind of calculation you refer to, without external assistance. Most people do not have access to this ability, but there are some (e.g., idiot savants) who do. In particular, doing it on imaginary pencil and paper requires only an eidetic memory. Another possibility is that one has seen the answer worked out somewhere, and just remembers it. (How many people have *never* seen 100 digits of e?) Clearly, what Covenant experienced in the Land was not an ordinary dream. Given its extraordinary nature, use of mental capacities not normally available to him is quite possible. I will agree that this test, if successful, provides evidence of the reality of the Land; but not very strong evidence. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Ashton-Tate 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 87 05:29:48 GMT From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Ursula K. LeGuin and WAKE UP! First of all, where did you all go? Either my machine is no longer getting postings from this newsgroup, or you guys have all taken a vacation. Anyway, has anyone out there read any LeGuin? Did you like it? Or did it seem to you that her books are at the 11 to 14 year-old level? I am presently reading _The_Dispossessed_, and it seems more like a hard-core SF treatment of sociology and human relations in general (with physics -- confused with math a lot in the story -- thrown in too). It reads like a lecture for junior high students, is full of blatantly obvious "symbolism" that is pounded through the readers thick skull, and generally insults the reader's intelligence. It is also a very trite story. The hero is a typical juvenile SF hero also: "Oh, nobody understands me; I'm just so Unique..." If any of you are still out there, I'd like to hear some of your opinions of this rather famous and lauded fantasy and SF writer. I have only read her Wizard of Earthsea "trilogy" before, and have to judge by that and Dispossessed. The Wizard series seemed to me to be aimed at an even younger audience. What's the story, huh? ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 87 22:39:28 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin Well, LeGuin's books are all concerned with psychology and such things. I don't find that immature (in fact, I'm willing to defend the thesis that the tendency of "main-line" SF to ignore psychology and other personal things is one of the reasons it appeals to adolescents). Try _The Lathe of Heaven_. This is, in my opinion, one of the top four or five SF novels ever written. Remember, too, that Earthsea is quite deliberately juvenile. And if you really want a fight, try _Always Coming Home_. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 87 22:35:55 GMT From: carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore) Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin and WAKE UP! The Wizard series were definitely written and marketed as juveniles, although, like some of Heinlein's juveniles, they were better than many writer's adult books. In my personal opinion, LeGuin's best work by far is THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS. This opinion is shared by many people in the SF community, as the book got both the Hugo and the Nebula awards. You will probably find this one much more adult than THE DISPOSSESSED. Also very good are ROCANNAN'S WORLD and CITY OF ILLUSIONS. She also has several beautifully gem-like short stories that are worth reading, among them "Winter's King", "The Day Before the Revolution", and "Semley's Necklace" (which is the introduction to ROCANNAN'S WORLD, but stands beautifully by itself. Carole Ashmore ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Mar 87 0911-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #65 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 6 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 65 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Social Attitudes (2 msgs) & New Tekumel Mailing List & Business in SF (2 msgs) & UFO's (2 msgs) & The Challenger Center & Convention Notice ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 4 Feb 87 14:02:20-CST From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: sf & social attitudes Well, my reaction to booth@princeton is that she has a grossly stereotyped idea of what sf is about. Most of the sf I read has a cautionary message to it rather than a "full steam ahead at any cost" attitude she describes. (Of course I haven't read Analog in a long time, and from what I hear, perhaps that's what Heather Booth has been reading to get this assumption.) It is also debatable whether it is entirely bad to question religion, as she suggests. If the cost of keeping society safe and tranquil is having everyone fear the wrath of god unthinkingly, I'm not sure I want any part of it. There is some truth in her message however, about placing undue faith in technology. One need only consider Star Wars or the space shuttle. It is reminiscent to me of some psychological theory I heard somewhere that people have little feel for high & low probabilities. The chances of a missile-proof defense shield are so remote, yet many people convince themselves that as long as a slight probability for it is there, it means we can do it. "Incredibly unlikely" becomes merely "possible" then "feasible" when it comes to blue skies attitudes towards technology. I think the "man on the street" has no comprehension of just how complicated many modern devices are, and so ignores it and just assumes they will work, much as we ignore figures like a trillion dollar deficit. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 87 19:25:11 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: sf & social attitudes CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes: >Most of the sf I read has a cautionary message to it rather than a >"full steam ahead at any cost" attitude... Yeah. Even in most of the tripe-ridden (poorly written) "space adventure" stories, there is usually some warning about reliance on technology or jingoism or political power running amuck that's used as the basis of the conflict for the story. >It is also debatable whether it is entirely bad to question >religion, as she suggests. If the cost of keeping society safe and >tranquil is having everyone fear the wrath of god unthinkingly, I'm >not sure I want any part of it. It's my belief that the *answer* to the questioning-of-religion issue lies so at the heart of the asker's theology that it becomes an illogical debate. Anyone who believes that "My religion is the only valid one; believe in *this* or go to Hell" will, to maintain spiritual integrity, have to challenge the questioning of religion. No one challenges religion like an agnostic; no one defends religion like a True Believer. It's part of each one's spiritual identity and *I* don't expect them to change away from their individual theological stance to suit me. As long as holders of any viewpoint don't insist I share it (legal enforcement or censure), I'm satisfied. >There is some truth in her message however, about placing undue >faith in technology. One need only consider Star Wars or the space >shuttle... Except that the disaster of a year ago has tempered this dramatically. I don't think that unthinking support of SDI is all that widespread. Anyone who actively reads Science Fiction would cast a jaundiced eye on blythe belief in technology, anyhow. Kris Stephens, (408-746-6047) Amdahl Corporation amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 87 00:32:15 GMT From: mmm!allen@rutgers.edu (Kurt Allen) Subject: New Mailing List about Fantasy World Of Tekumel Interested in Magic, Adventure, and Exotic Alien Cultures? Interested in the the fantasy world of Tekumel, as described by the 2 fantasy books _Man_of_Gold, and _FlameSong_, and the gaming system _Empire_of_the_Petal_Throne ? Interested in a world rich in culture, magic, and ancient technological marvels ? Then you might be interested in a new Tekumel mailing list I am starting, Please read on. Currently information about Tekumel is distributed via a small fanzine called the "The Imperial Courier". The writers are old time Tekumelers and new people knowledgeable about the world of Tekumel. It is totally devoted to information regarding the fantasy world of Tekumel. With the express permission of the publishers, I would like to circulate an electronic copy of the courier via a mailing list to interested parties. There will of course be no charge for being on the mailing list. If you are such a party then please drop me a mail message, or reasonable facsimile, at ihnp4!mmm!allen requesting to get on the mailing list. If there is sufficient interest the first issue should be out in approximately 2-4 weeks. Kurt Allen 3M Center ihnp4!mmm!allen P.S. Yes, I am affiliated with Tekumel games, I game there routinely, No, I have never made a drop of money from these guys, and I have no plans to make any money from this. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 87 9:42:59 EST From: "Daniel P. Dern" Subject: Business in SF Here's some more business in sf suggestions: "The Silent Eyes of Time", by Algis Budrys, uses (and shows) high-level corporate types in action in a (to me) believable) way. I'm re-reading this in Terry Carr's YEAR'S BEST SF anthology (number 4 or 5, I think...); it originally appeared in F&SF -- and I thought this was supposed to be part of a novel (c'mon, A.J.)! That one stirred up some more memories. What about all those stirring tales of those entrepreneuring engineers in the Triplanetary stories, or whatever they were -- those two lovable lunks who invented the power beams, and figured out those power beam grids on Mars, and lord knows what else...their name escapes me, including the author. More to the point, how about Heinlein's TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE, esp. the tale of the brother and sister. Or Theodore Sturgeon stories like "Brownshoes" and "Occam's Scalpel". John Brunner novels like STAND ON ZANZIBAR. Phillip K. Dick. Also, I'd recommend John. D. MacDonald, in his non-sf. Daniel Dern ddern@ccb.bbn.com ------------------------------ Date: 9 February 1987, 14:24:33 EST From: "Richard P. King" Subject: Re: Image of Businessmen in SF In Cordwainer Smith's _Norstrilia_, the planet named in the title is inhabited by farmers who gather & refine a substance called stroon from the coats of peculiarly mutated sheep. Stroon is the longevity drug, so these farmers are among richest men in the universe. Our hero, Roderick Frederick Ronald Arnold William McArthur McBan CLI, is such a farmer, and, as the owner of one of these farms, qualifies as a businessman. In fact, through a manipulation of the stroon futures market, he becomes the very richest man in the galaxy. He's also a very nice guy, who later in the book has some interesting adventures on & under old Earth. Richard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Feb 87 20:33:51 GMT From: 52194052%NMSUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: government coverup of UFO'S UFO's (Unidentified Flying Objects) Late last year prople in New Mexico were treated to an unusual sight in the night sky. Many people observed the bright comet- like object as it burned upon re-entry of the earth's atmosphere. This object was identified by NORAD (North American Air Defense Command) as a Soviet rocket booster. Again on Monday night of the next week U.S. citizens across the south reported an unusual sighting. This object was not identified by NORAD, but an air traffic controller in Tennessee said "It was probably a meteor." Some reports claimed that the object was a flying saucer. Throughout history there have been thousands of far more dramatic observations of UFO's, and some of the most provocative have been right here in New Mexico. Evidence suggests that some UFO's are alien spacecraft. There are some that do not agree with this particular analysis on UFO origin. First, they have examples of intentional hoaxes perpetrated by UFO enthusiasts. One example is the list of "Astronaut UFO Sightings", a collection of data listed in the book "Edge of Reality" by Dr. J. Allen Hyneck. Hyneck has after more careful research, disavowed the list. Of sixteen items on the list, most have been shown to be cases where astronauts were quoted out of context or cases of outright fraud. All of the items on the list were in some way discredited by James Oberg who works for NASA (National Aeronautics and Space Administration), in his article "Astronaut UFO Sightings". Second, anti-UFO-ists say that there is no physical evidence to support the hypothesis that UFO's are alien vehicles; since UFO's have been studied for an extended period of time, there should be some physical evidence. Finally they say most sightings have been fully explained as "normal" occurences such as electro- magnetic field effects, weather balloons, and the like. While it is logically valid to hold this point of view given the type of information considered thus far, there is information that has been ignored up until this point. For over thirty years, government agencies such as the FBI, CIA, NSA (National Security Agency) and DIA (Defense Intelligence agency) have actively researched UFO's but because of national security considerations not all their findings have been released. ( One national newspaper ran the headline: "If there are no UFO's, Why All the Secrecy?" ) There have been over of 12,618 reports turned over to the Air Force for investigation with 701 remaining unexplained. IF JUST ONE OF THESE REPORTS CONSTITUTES A SIGHTING OF AN EXTRATERRESTRIAL VEHICLE THE IMPLICATIONS WOULD BE PROFOUND. Even skeptics admit that some UFO sightings are puzzling. One example of this exists in a CIA document written by Hector Quintanella Jr. (the figurehead of Air Force skepticism) relating to an incident observed by a Socorro police officer. The document stated: " There is no doubt that Lonnie Zamora saw an object which left quite an impression on him. There is also no question about Zamora's reliability. He is a serious officer, a pillar of his church, and a man well versed in recognizing airborne vehicles in his area. He is puzzled by what he saw and frankly, so are we. This is the best documented case on record, and still we have been unable, in spite of thorough investigation, to find the vehicle or other stimulus that scared Zamora to the point of panic."* Quintanella was head of Air Force "Project Blue Book" at the time the document was compiled. In another collection of 1018 incidents reported by at least two observers, 3.3 per cent (41) involved episodes where humanoids were seen with the vehicle or vehicles. Forty two cases included the observation of a landing. In addition, some notable people were recently asked to indicate where aliens would land and why. Nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman and Bruce Maccabee, a physicist specializing in laser optics, picked New Mexico because of the proximity of White Sands Proving Ground and since New Mexico is the location of the first atomic bomb test site. * more on this in the book "Clear Intent". bibliography; Clear Intent: Fawcett / Greenwood Paranormal Borderlands of Science: Kendrick Frazier Space Time Transients and Unusual Events Persinger / Lafreniere Las cruces Sun News ": Nov 11 86 1b Omni (magazine): May 86 The Book of Lists": Wallechinsky / Eallace / Wallace MIKEY ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 87 20:43:22 GMT From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: government coverup of UFO'S From: 52194052%NMSUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >For over thirty years, government agencies such as the FBI, CIA, >NSA (National Security Agency) and DIA (Defense Intelligence >agency) have actively researched UFO's but because of national >security considerations not all their findings have been released. >( One national newspaper ran the headline: "If there are no UFO's, >Why All the Secrecy?" ) There have been over of 12,618 reports >turned over to the Air Force for investigation with 701 remaining >unexplained. IF JUST ONE OF THESE REPORTS CONSTITUTES A SIGHTING >OF AN EXTRATERRESTRIAL VEHICLE THE IMPLICATIONS WOULD BE PROFOUND. Oh so true. It has been said that if you watch a good portion of the sky for a single hour every night for a year, you have a near certainty of spotting some kind of UFO. But the government won't admit it. There are many documented cases of UFO's hundreds of yards long that have hovered 200 feet above the ground in the same spot for more than an hour, being spotted by everyone in the town, and located and triangulated on radar, yet still we do not want to face this. I personally saw two UFO's one night a few years back. Nothing spectacular: just 2 red lights *very* high up that managed to go from horizon to horizon in about 8 seconds. They were in tandem formation.They were also witnessed by my brother and my father. Two nights later, my father saw two more travel the same path abreast of each other, and then 3 in tandem come in and join them from a right-angle course. If you want to be convinced that UFO's are real, read _Aliens_in_the_Skies by John G. Fuller. It leaves little room for doubt. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 17:54:53 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: Challenger Center for Space Science Education On the anniversary of the Challenger accident, the families of those aboard announced the Challenger Center as a continuation of the work left undone by the tragedy. The Center is the collective name for a series (the first two will be in Washington DC and Houston) of station sites and connecting infrastructure aimed at using space as a means to promote education in the sciences, math and communications. Any classroom in the country will be able to hook into the centers' computer system as an interactive source. Teachers and students at the station sites will live and work in a simulated space station environment. I pass this information (that many of you have undoubtedly already seen) on, because I will be functioning as the Center's interface with the various computer networks. Right now, that's only Compuserve and (with my employers' cooperation) Usenet, but hopefully guest accounts on other nets can be set up soon. I solicit your ideas for the center, help in passing the word, (and help in getting in touch with other nets...anyone a sysop?) Let's keep the usenet discussion on sci.space. Thanks Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 17:53:35 GMT From: bnl!scott@rutgers.edu (james scott) Subject: sf/who/trek con ICON 6 will be held on March 27, 28, 29 at The State University of NY at Stony Brook, Long Island It is NYs largest SF con. This years guests include David Brin, Colin Baker, and a Trek guest (probably a Saavik). Trek I, II, III, and IV will be amoung the dozen or so movies. There will be an extensive science track including scientists from Brookhaven National Lab, Jet Propulsion Lab, Grumman, Stony Brook Covering a large array of topics (genetics - ie uplifting, Space travel, Quasars, and exobiology). Write to ICON 6, PO BOX 550, STONY BROOK, NY 11790 for more info. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Mar 87 0928-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #66 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 6 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 66 Today's Topics: Books - Hogan (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Feb 87 03:18:43 GMT From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Nonagression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy rlk@athena.MIT.EDU writes: >One problem: the kamikaze trait would tend to get bred out of the >population. The folks who could avoid this kamikaze role would >tend to have more offspring. No, I don't think so, for several reasons. First, we are talking about an N+5 animals competing for N resources, so breeding enough probably isn't a problem. Second, the tribes with kamikazes will dominate the tribes without kamikazes, (i.e., evolutionary pressure to be a kamikaze). Third, kamikazes probably wouldn't be a genetic trait anyway, i.e., you don't need kamikazes to raise kamikazes. Fourth, kamikazes could always be the elderly, who have no more breeding potential. Scott R. Turner ARPA: srt@ucla UUCP: {cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 10:45:35 GMT From: aber-cs!chm@rutgers.edu (Corinne Morris) Subject: Re: Nonagression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes: >I can't see any way for these critters to resolve the problem of >there's-resources-for-N-animals-and-N+5- animals-want-to-use-them How about: the smartest N critters do the best at collecting & hiding food; they all probably go a little hungry till the 5 weakest die of starvation or disease. Corinne Morris ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 87 00:56:02 GMT From: abbott@dean.Berkeley.EDU (+Mark Abbott) Subject: James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy: error about evolution... Sorry, but I don't agree. Aggression and predation are 2 separate things, ask any ethologist. Aggression is the imposition of one's will over another through violence or threatened violence. Predation is the killing and consumption of another creature. As someone else stated before, aggression is normally seen in competition for resources. Predation is the utilization of resources. When an animal preys on another no signals of threat or intimidation are given, the prey is taken with a minimum of effort. When an animal aggresses against another it almost always involves substantial energy put into threats, postures, and only occasionally physical violence. Another way of looking at it: take Hogan's setup - no predators so one common means of selection on earth is ruled out. Now competition for resources will become even more important than it is here. So, how to win in the gathering resources game? I see two likely strategies: 1. become more efficient in gathering/utilizing resources, 2. prevent others from having access to those resources. Picture Hogan's idyllic setup. Here we have a herd of herbivores, living completely peacefully no aggression, no outside threats. All of the females share all of the males equally when mating season comes around. Through random mutation we get one female who is slightly agitated when she sees other pairs mating. As a result, she disrupts matings within her sight or, in other words, impairs the other females access to males. She has an obvious advantage when competing for males. Many of the other females will have disrupted matings resulting in fewer successful conceptions and therefore fewer offspring. Our mutation, on the other hand, has none of her matings disrupted and therefore has more successful conceptions and more offspring. Since her daughters are likely to carry her mutation, which will also give them an advantage, the trait will probably fix. Aggression becomes a trait in the population without any influence from predators. Mark Abbott abbott@dean.BERKELEY.EDU (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 87 04:13:41 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB) Subject: poisonous animals (was non-aggression ...) Like many biological ideas in SF, the idea of an animal being poisonous in order to avoid predation has parallels in Earth biology. Example: there are some butterflies which create a poisonous alkaloid in their wings. They are not bothered by it but it will poison any bird which tries to eat it. These butterflies have bright, distinctive patterns on their wings so that the birds can identify them and steer clear. There are also other butterflies which copy these patterns but not the poisons. They are also avoided (for the most part) by the predatory birds. This raises a question about these poisonous animals: Why didn't they put the poison in some part of their bodies (like the butterflies' wings) where it would not bother them, but which predators would be unable to avoid? Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 87 02:07:47 GMT From: 3comvax!michaelm@rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil) Subject: Re: poisonous animals (was non-aggression ...) dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: >Like many biological ideas in SF, the idea of an animal being >poisonous in order to avoid predation has parallels in Earth >biology. Example: there are some butterflies which create a >poisonous alkaloid in their wings. They are not bothered by it but >it will poison any bird which tries to eat it. {...} > >This raises a question about these poisonous animals: Why didn't >they put the poison in some part of their bodies (like the >butterflies' wings) where it would not bother them, but which >predators would be unable to avoid? The problem with this is the qualifier "... but which predators would be unable to avoid." Many birds have learned to pick off the wings of poisonous butterflies and eat the less poisonous body. Michael McNeil 3Com Corporation Santa Clara, California {hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma} oliveb!3comvax!michaelm ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 87 18:26:50 GMT From: ahh@h.cc.purdue.edu (Brent L. Woods) Subject: Re: Nonagression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy ain@s.cc.purdue.edu (Patrick White) writes: >dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes: >> Now I, with my background in this dog-eat-dog (see how >>thoroughly it colors our outlook?) world of predators and >>aggressors, can't see any way for these critters to resolve the >>problem of there's-resources-for-N-animals-and-N+5- >>animals-want-to-use-them, but that may be more a matter of limited >>vision than fundamental impossibility. Anybody have ideas? >>Remember, physical violence is Right Out. > > Perhaps they evolved intelligence as a way of resource arbitration. Right, Pat. Seriously, I think a better theory (yes, the better theory theory) is that intelligence evolved as an aid to keeping an organism intact, and, therefore, alive. Consider: The least little cut or puncture wound would result in (the possibility of) the mixing of the contents of both circulatory systems. Wouldn't it just ruin your day to fatally poison yourself just by cutting yourself shaving? Intelligence would be a pro-survival trait, since, in this environment, you can't afford to learn from experience. The experience would, like as not, kill you the first time. An expensive lesson, yes? Intelligence would enable an animal to see another of its kind die as a result of brushing up against a thorn bush and say, "Hmmm. *I* better not do that. It would be bad." So, a more-intelligent-than-average animal manages to live long enough to breed while his stupider cousin blunders into a bush and dies the one true death (that's life in the wild kingdom, eh?) Brent Woods USENET: {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc.purdue.edu!ahh BITNET: PODUM@PURCCVM PHONE: (317) 743-6445 USNAIL: 500 Russell St., Apt. 19 West Lafayette, IN 47906 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 87 22:56:32 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB) Subject: Re: poisonous animals (was non-aggression ...) michaelm@3comvax.UUCP (Michael McNeil) writes: >dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: >>Like many biological ideas in SF, the idea of an animal being >>poisonous in order to avoid predation has parallels in Earth >>biology. Example: there are some butterflies which create a >>poisonous alkaloid in their wings. They are not bothered by it >>but it will poison any bird which tries to eat it. {...} >> >>This raises a question about these poisonous animals: Why didn't >>they put the poison in some part of their bodies (like the >>butterflies' wings) where it would not bother them, but which >>predators would be unable to avoid? > >The problem with this is the qualifier "... but which predators >would be unable to avoid." Many birds have learned to pick off >the wings of poisonous butterflies and eat the less poisonous body. This just shows that for every defense mechanism a prey species comes up with, some predator species will find a way around it. I would expect similar type mechanisms to occur on Hogan's planet (whatever it was). I don't read Hogan's books. The few books of his that I've read tend to be about as dry as a scientific journal. Characterizations are nil, at least the human characters. The aliens seem to be more interesting than the humans. (I've also noticed this about James White books although his aren't nearly as dry.) Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 07:03:48 GMT From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.edu (lucius) Subject: Re: Nonagression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes: > But that's the whole point! The factor that prevents predation > also prevents ANY form of aggression. Not ANY form of aggression. See below. > That's not what he says at all. Listen very carefully: > > James P. Hogan postulates a physical, anatomical rationale for > the absence of aggression in Minervan animals. Terrestrial animals > rely on the primary circulatory system (bloodstream) to dispose of > metabolic wastes. Hogan's Minervan animals evolved a secondary > circulatory system for this purpose. Since the contents of this > secondary system were toxic, no predator could survive an attempt > to make a meal of any animal having this system. Over millions of > years, the contents of this waste-disposal system became more and > more concentrated. Predatory species, which had barely gotten > started anyway, vanished entirely. > > The secondary system also inhibited non-predatory aggression. > Any injury, however slight, carried a major risk of contaminating > the primary circulatory system with concentrated wastes. Physical > aggression was selected out, since even minor injuries would kill > BOTH parties. Bone and horn guard plates were formed over joints > and other vulnerable areas to minimize the chances of accidental > injury. While this rules out hand-to-hand (or the equivalent) combat, it does not do ANYTHING to rule out aggression by means of projectile weapons (no chance of the aggressor injuring itself by making such an attack, although normal chances of the aggressor being injured by return fire from the victim) or treachery (put poison in competitor's food, release poison gas when upwind of a victim, arrange for the victim to have an accident, etc.; no more risky to aggressor than projectile combat). > Now I, with my background in this dog-eat-dog (see how > thoroughly it colors our outlook?) world of predators and > aggressors, can't see any way for these critters to resolve the > problem of there's-resources-for-N-animals-and-N+5- > animals-want-to-use-them, but that may be more a matter of limited > vision than fundamental impossibility. Anybody have ideas? > Remember, physical violence is Right Out. Well, cooperation and self-imposed limits on reproduction are possible, but it seems that as long as aggression is possible most life-forms will develop it. I will admit that Hogan's model of Minervan life makes aggression more difficult, but not impossible. Lucius Chiaraviglio lucius@tardis.harvard.edu seismo!tardis.harvard.edu!lucius ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 02:53:47 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Nonagression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes: > Now I, with my background in this dog-eat-dog (see how thoroughly >it colors our outlook?) world of predators and aggressors, can't >see any way for these critters to resolve the problem of >there's-resources-for-N-animals-and-N+5- animals-want-to-use-them, >but that may be more a matter of limited vision than fundamental >impossibility. Anybody have ideas? Remember, physical violence is >Right Out. If they're intelligent, it's simple: throw rocks. That's not physical violence? BTW, this has problems. I bet the Minervan critters have *lots* of odd illnesses which focus on the secondary nervous system. (1) They're liable to be susceptible to anabolic bacteria. (2) Imagine a bacterium which cuts off the secondary circulation system. (3) (a) Cardiac arrest in the heart which pumps the secondary system, or (b) cramps in the muscles which pump it by peristalsis. My point is that there's more to go wrong in this system than in ours. Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 16:56:47 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy: error about Subject: evolution... ewiles@netxcom.UUCP (Edwin Wiles) writes: >Predatory: "1. of, living by, or characterized by plundering, >robbing, or exploiting others. 2. living by capturing and feeding >upon other animals." Definition 1 is intended to apply only to those in a social environment; i.e., humans. Only definition 2 is predation in the biological sense. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Ashton-Tate 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 87 18:54:45 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy: error about Subject: evolution... >>The only herbivors that we have around to study most definitely >>evolved in a predator filled environment. Therefore an argument >>based on these 'aggressive' herbivores is fallacious. > > The amount that the creatures have to worry about predation does > not correlate with their aggression, as far as I know It is worth noting that herbivores really ought to be considered predators. It is just that their prey is particularly easy to sneak up on... > This definition [of predation] is the one of choice for politics > and non-scientific human relations, but it doesn't cut it for > biology. For biology you have to add that it is only that which > is an attempt to deal with competition. Similarly, my definition of predation might be a little non-standard. But my point remains... Hogan's world wasn't truely free of aggression. It's just that the aggression was all directed towards species that did not resist effectively. But then, humans don't prey on species that can resist effectively. They didn't even do it when there still were species that could resist effectively. So how is the selective pressure on the Giants different from those on humans? In one regard. For a Giant, the simple fact of mobility is a strong indicator that a species ought not be be preyed upon, because all mobile species on the Giant's planet were effectively defended. It could thus plausibly be built in to the Giants that they only aggress against plants. Wayne Throop mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Mar 87 1005-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #67 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 6 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 67 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Terminology (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Feb 87 00:21 CDT From: <"FOREST::IWAMOTO%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET> Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'Sci-Fi' and more Hehehehe...I started the whole thing, but I doubt that I will have the final word in it. I believe, personally, that there is nothing wrong in this day and age in referring to what I have loved reading for the last 20 or so years as Science Fiction, SF, or Sci-Fi (not Skiffy, since I hadn't heard of this term until just recently). Actually, I don't care what "insiders" or "outsiders" feel in terms of the terms (huh??!!). I know what I am referring to and anybody talking to me will know what I am talking about, so I tend to just leave it as that. Those who don't know, whether they be those who cringe when I say "Sci-Fi" or those who have never enjoyed SF/Fantasy/whatever, can be classified as effete snobs or gloriously ignorant people. Whatever, I know what I like and will continue trying to get the most out of it. Now on to better and bigger things... I have, for some time, been trying to think of books/stories which I could use to introduce the wonderful world of SF/Fantasy to those who have never considered reading any of it (or just never got around to finding one to read). To this end, I would like to solicit suggestions from all of you wonderful (well, _I_ think you're wonderful) people as to what you would recommend to SF-virgins (oops...can I say the "v" word here?). Mind you, I'm not looking for books you would consider excellent SF literature. Dune, as far as I'm concerned, is a wonderful book, but I'm not sure I would recommend it to a first-timer. Now, we can do this in one of two ways (or maybe even both, since I'm not sure everybody can figure out how to e-mail directly to me [I'm not sure I can figure it out]). The first, obviously, is to respond directly to SF-LOVERS. This could just end up overwhelming poor Saul (but he loves it, right...hehe). The other, probably more reasonable method, is to e-mail them directly to me and I will collate and correlate your responses and post them to SF-LOVERS after an appropriate time (not to mention also telling you folks to stop sending me info...). If you have no problems e-mailing them to me, please do so. If you do have problems, I guess we have no recourse but to send them to Mr. Jaffe. Thanx in advance. P.S. No flames, please. My fireproof suit is still at the cleaners. Warren M. Iwamoto Texas Instruments, Inc. Dallas, TX. (214) 480-2456 / (214) 437-0823 CSNET: iwamoto%forest@ti-eg ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 20:14:30 GMT From: reed!mirth@rutgers.edu (The Reedmage) Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'Sci-Fi' [short] Well, one good thing has come of this discussion. I have changed my mind and opened my eyes. To all the people I have berated for using the term 'sci fi,' I hereby apologize. While I still think that what I read is SF and sci fi is pulp, I will no longer try to impress that view on others. If you want to use 'sci fi' to describe decent SF, so be it. And let's get on with discussing the stuff instead of naming it! Thanks for making me think, guys. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 23:59:55 GMT From: dma@euler.Berkeley.EDU (D. M. Auslander) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus Subject: 'SCI-FI') sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >Does what you are saying here mean that fantasy is just science >fiction with different physical laws? That's a twist; I've seen >people argue that science fiction is a subgenre of fantasy (cf. >Laura above), but the other way around is rare. The idea that fantasy is just sf with different physical laws is the fundamental concept behind the "Compleat Enchanter" stories by L. Sprague deCamp and Fletcher Pratt. The idea is that magic is a sort of alternate physics and obeys different physical laws. I don't care whether the books are called sf or fantasy or whatever (I sort of like speculative fiction as a label if we must have one since all fiction is inherently speculative and this is a less ghetooizing term) - I just care whether they are interestingly written and entertaining. Most good writing doesn't need to be stuffed into inherently restrictive categories. Miriam Nadel ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 87 06:01:32 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus Subject: 'SCI-FI') There seems to me really no essential difference between fantasy and science fiction. The basic criterion defining either is that the setting is manufactured and does not correspond to any known real setting. SF is by no means restricted to the future, but to alternate and metaphorical worlds as well. SF frequently involves psychic (=magical) powers, as does fantasy. In the best of both, the super-science or magical powers are vessels of the story rather than the main focus in themselves. Any attempt to divide science fiction soundly from fantasy leaves a large number of works that are difficult to classify, some of them deliberately so. Various works of Zelazny ("A Rose for Ecclesiastes", the Amber series, "Lord of Light", etc.) straddle the boundaries squarely, as does much of Moorcock (e.g., "Gloriana", "Behold the Man"), and Clarke ("The City and the Stars"). Among other stars of the firmament we should note Phillip K. Dick (esp. later works), Harlan Ellison, and Frederic Brown. In a lesser league, there are Randall Garrett ("Lord Darcy"), Piers Anthony (the Tarot books, "Incarnations of Immortality") and Jack Chalker ("The Four Lords of the Diamond", "Soul Rider"). In many cases, one senses a deliberate intent to break down the imagined barrier between fantasy and science fiction, which artificially limits the imagination of the storyteller. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 22:25:01 GMT From: borealis!barry@rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus Subject: 'SCI-FI') sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: >I would be interested to hear of any books people can think of that >do not seem to fit in the category one would assume they would. For >instance, I always thought of Dhalgren as science fiction, and >suddenly four paragraphs ago I realized that it is more fantasy to >me. The Pern books are full of dragons, yet they are science >fiction. Are there any fantasy stories with spaceships? How about an example from the movies? STAR WARS is clearly fantasy; Lucas himself calls it a "space fantasy", and points up the fantasy with that fairy-tale opener, "a long, long time ago, in a galaxy far away". Why a fantasy? The Force, of course. And the purists can also object to FTL. Add in the fairy-tale plot, and what else can you call it? By contrast, CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND, from the same year, is often classed as fantasy, but seems pretty straight SF to me. Its religious overtones, plus its being based more on the UFO cult than on the contents of ANALOG, give it a fantasy feeling, but were there any actual supernatural or fantasy elements? I didn't spot any. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 87 00:58:39 GMT From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus Subject: 'SCI-FI') sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: > I would be interested to hear of any books people can think of > that do not seem to fit in the category one would assume they > would. For instance, I always thought of Dhalgren as science > fiction, and suddenly four paragraphs ago I realized that it is > more fantasy to me. The Pern books are full of dragons, yet they > are science fiction. Are there any fantasy stories with > spaceships? I guess we all have our own definitions. I'm not too certain where to put the Dragonrider books, for instance. If Pern has either a lower surface gravity or a thicker atmosphere than Earth, I'd put them in the Science fiction category. If it is Earth normal, I'd stick them in the science fantasy category. Why? Critters the size and mass of dragons can't fly under earth conditions. If the dragons have a built-in anti-grav (hah! evolve that! oops, I forgot. They didn't have to. The earthmen might have done a bit of genetic engineering) it could move back to fiction. Fuzzy distinction, isn't it? Add in conservation of momentum and conservation of energy for teleportation. Let's consider some "classic" SF. Jules Verne, From the Earth to the Moon. Fiction or fantasy? He ignores acceleration effects, but i'd really like to let that pass--he didn't have any other mechanism for getting them into orbit. He did know that rockets would work, but couldn't get them to work well enough. E. E. Smith's Skylark series. Fantasy. Ignores acceleration, relativity, gets too much energy out of a Cu bar, etc. In the later stories he runs into some consistency problems because of this. The Lensman series. Fiction. At least he gives a rationale. Poul Anderson, Operation Chaos. I don't really know. Witches and werewolves and conservation of mass. I'd really like to say fiction, just because. Drat. I think I've managed to talk myself out of my definition. Probably an artificial distinction, anyway. I might recognize some sort of shading-- hard science fiction, science fiction, science fantasy, fantasy. This looks like some sort of 2d graph, with technology along one axis and rigor along another. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 87 18:22:42 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus Subject: 'SCI-FI') tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >There seems to me really no essential difference between fantasy >and science fiction. [...] > >Any attempt to divide science fiction soundly from fantasy leaves a >large number of works that are difficult to classify, some of them >deliberately so. Various works of [...] Great list, Tim! I've been thinking that perhaps we're describing a spectrum of stories. If "pure" fantasy is Primary Red and "pure" science fiction is Primary Blue, then we can have a smooth shift of Red-through-Magenta-to-Blue, and we should be able to make note of examples at each extreme to go with your list of stories more or less at the Magenta mix. How about "Lord of the Rings" as Red and "Starship Troopers" as Blue? There is practically no science and technology in "Lord of the Rings" and it abounds with magic and other arcana. There is speculation on the future of humanity, our technology and politics, and alien races which *might* actually exist, in "Starship Troopers", but no magic or occult/arcane components. So while we have some commonality, as you pointed out, there *are* some essential differences *at the extremes* of each. Kristopher Stephens (408-746-6047) Amdahl Corporation amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 87 08:09:21 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus Subject: 'SCI-FI') daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >Let's consider some "classic" SF. Jules Verne, From the Earth to >the Moon. Fiction or fantasy? He ignores acceleration effects, >but i'd really like to let that pass--he didn't have any other >mechanism for getting them into orbit. He did know that rockets >would work, but couldn't get them to work well enough. It is interesting to notice that some things about Verne's story were closer to the real thing than just about anything subsequent. >E. E. Smith's Skylark series. Fantasy. Ignores acceleration, >relativity, gets too much energy out of a Cu bar, etc. In the >later stories he runs into some consistency problems because of >this. > >The Lensman series. Fiction. At least he gives a rationale. This shows up the impossibility of drawing a clear-cut boundary, and illustrates why sf is a sub-species of fantasy literature. There is a difference between the "science" in Skylark and the Lensman series? Only if one uses a microscope or something. (By the way, the Lensman stuff also ignores relativity, acceleration and common sense. I really don't see much if any difference.) >an artificial distinction, anyway. I might recognize some sort of >shading-- hard science fiction, science fiction, science fantasy, >fantasy. This looks like some sort of 2d graph, with technology >along one axis and rigor along another. Since I have just got through explaining why "Contact" (which is hard sf) is less scientifically rigorous and less plausible than "The Lord of the Rings", I wonder how much any of this makes any kind of sense. Gene Ward Smith UCB Math Dept Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 87 22:33:53 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >I'm not too certain where to put the Dragonrider books, for >instance. If Pern has either a lower surface gravity or a thicker >atmosphere than Earth, I'd put them in the Science fiction >category. If it is Earth normal, i'd stick them in the science >fantasy category. Why? Critters the size and mass of dragons >can't fly under earth conditions. If the dragons have a built-in >anti-grav (hah! evolve that! oops, i forgot. they didn't have >to. the earthmen might have done a bit of genetic engineering) it >could move back to fiction. Fuzzy distinction, isn't it? Add in >conservation of momentum and conservation of energy for >teleportation. You didn't even mention other unscientific aspects of Pern. The celestial mechanics (Pern & Red Star) were absolutely ridiculous. Also, how did the threads get from the Red Star (really a planet) to Pern? I can only conclude that McCaffrey did not really care that the laws of physics were violated in her book. This is not to say that I didn't enjoy the books. I did, but I had to treat many aspects of them as fantasy. >Poul Anderson, Operation Chaos. I don't really know. Witches and >werewolves and conservation of mass. I'd really like to say >fiction, just because. "Operation Chaos" belongs to a category of fantasy which allows magic but makes it comply to certain scientifically established laws (as well as some mythologic laws: no magic works in or near a church). Other stories in the category are Larry Niven's "The Magic Goes Away" and "The Magic May Return" collections. Other fantasies don't bother with laws or allow virtually anything (cf "Her Majesty's Wizard" (I think; author's name forgotten) where the magician may do anything if he can compose a poem to describe it). >Drat. I think I've managed to talk myself out of my definition. >Probably an artificial distinction, anyway. I might recognize some >sort of shading-- hard science fiction, science fiction, science >fantasy, fantasy. This looks like some sort of 2d graph, with >technology along one axis and rigor along another. I'm not sure that there is a good way to distinguish between Science Fiction and Fantasy. Even using the intention of the author is not sufficient. Often, an author will deliberately violate well established laws of nature, admits that he has done so, and does not come up with any explanation of why this violation occurred. For example, in "City", Clifford Simak uses a Lamarkian mechanism (inheritance of acquired traits) to explain a change in dogs. He admits that it violates what we know of heredity but does not explain how he got around it. (I consider most of what Simak writes to be fantasy despite what he intended.) Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Mar 87 0857-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #68 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 68 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (11 msgs) & Kurtz & LeGuin & Post-Holocaust Books (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Feb 87 05:03:24 GMT From: borealis!barry@rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books hobie@sq.UUCP writes: >A Andrews (arlan@inuxm.UUCP) writes: >>Of all the RAH books ever done, I thought FRIDAY the absolute >>worst; > >Really? I thought "The Number of the Beast" to be the most odious >novel I have ever experienced (I read maybe 100 pages and it kept >getting WORSE). Maybe you never read that one. Sounds like neither of you have read I WILL FEAR NO EVIL. I don't think any other Heinlein book can match it for sheer wretchedness. TNOTB is readable for us true Heinlein fanatics because of all the in jokes, and the cameo appearances by characters which are old favorites from other books. Except for that, though, it's nearly as bad as IWFNE. But FRIDAY is good, and is the only book he's published since TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE that I can give an unqualified recommendation. Kayembee ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 87 05:07:05 GMT From: borealis!barry@rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books arlan@inuxm.UUCP (A Andrews) writes: >Sorry to disappoint anyone, but if memory serves at all, then SIASL >was the earliest, TMIAHM next and FF last of all! See, you can't >really date Heinlein's works by fads of political theory. Actually, the order is STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND (1961), FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD (1964), THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS (1966). Kayembee ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 87 09:16:08 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Heinlein's books From: inuxm!arlan (Arlan Andrews) > Sorry to disappoint anyone, but if memory serves at all, then > SIASL was the earliest, TMIAHM next and FF last of all! See, you > can't really date Heinlein's works by fads of political theory. Not quite. FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD was published in 1964 and THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS in 1966. Of course, using publication dates to support arguments of an author's changing ideologies or whatever can be very suspect, since it doesn't necessarily reflect when (or the order in which) he wrote them. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 87 06:11:49 GMT From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books hobie@sq.UUCP (Hobie Orris) writes: >Really? I thought "The Number of the Beast" to be the most odious >novel I have ever experienced (I read maybe 100 pages and it kept >getting WORSE). Hmmm, I would have to say either I Will Fear No Evil, or Rocketship Galileo. I actually sort of respect TNotB, because he at least TRIES to deal with the question of what would happen if a bunch of his standard "dominant" type characters had to live in the same spaceship. David Dyer-Bennet Usenet: ...viper!ddb Fidonet: Sysop of Fido 14/341 (612) 721-8967 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Feb 87 04:43:17 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.edu (Jim "Jack" Frost) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books IWFNE isn't so bad a book. It was pretty good up until the end, though the end was so abrupt as to shock me. It felt as if RAH decided to just stop the book in the middle, which is a shame. Maybe he had a deadline? Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 87 05:48:47 GMT From: 6103014@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Harold Feld) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books hobie@sq.UUCP writes: >A Andrews (arlan@inuxm.UUCP) writes: >>Of all the RAH books ever done, I thought FRIDAY the absolute >>worst; >Really? I thought "The Number of the Beast" to be the most odious >novel I have ever experienced (I read maybe 100 pages and it kept >getting WORSE). Maybe you never read that one. *Number of the Beast* should really be regarded as an insider joke. I don't know about the rest of you, but I laughed my head off over the last section. The book could have used some serious editing. I have heard it was written while RAH still had a brain tumor. *Friday* was not all that bad until the last chapter. (No spoilers) The absolute WORST book by RAH was *I Will Fear No Evil*. He adopted his usual preachy tone, but didn't say anything new. (How many times can you say `sex is great!'?) Time Enough for Love has some real problems with its framework, although the short stories ( Man who was too lazy to fail, Tale of the adopted daughter, and The twins who weren't twins) were good. And, forgive me for saying so, *Stranger in a Strange Land* sucked. The characters were intensely boring and the message was trite. (My perception of this may be colored because I read several of his later books before hand. By the time I got to SIASL the`sex is great!' theme was boring.) On the other hand, *Starship Troopers* and *The Moon is a Harsh Mistress* are ghodlike. In my opinion, the stock Heinlein novel is *Puppet Masters* (later stolen by Star Trek as: Operation:Annhialate!). It contains the three RAH stock characters and a fast paced adventure. The moralizing is kept to a minimum. Harold Feld BITNET: 6103014@PUCC UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6103014 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 87 07:20:49 GMT From: amdahl!chuck@rutgers.edu (Charles Simmons) Subject: Re: Heinlein Some of us suckers who bought "The Number of the Beast" thus helping it to sell so well, did so because we had respected his past works. We didn't realize that The Number of the Beast had no redeeming social value until after we laid down our money. (I wouldn't mind seeing a list of numbers telling how many copies of each Heinlein book had been sold. I've a sneaking suspicion that 666 didn't sell as well as previous Heinlein works, and that later Heinlein works haven't been selling up to par either, because many of Heinlein's fans have been scared off...) Chuck ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 87 02:39:52 GMT From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books Sigh. It's just kind of sad when people fall all over each other coming up with worse and worse examples of somebody's work. Personally, I found "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls" the most horrible, disgusting, odious, and boring pile of paper that I have ever had the hideous misfortune to behold. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 87 17:45:47 GMT From: eneevax!russell@rutgers.edu (Christopher Russell) Subject: Re: Heinlein Well, since this discussion has been going on for a while, I thought I'd drop my two senses, er, cents worth in... I have only read two Heinlein novels in my life. The first was several years ago when I read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" for a Computer Science course in college. I thought it was a great book, and it is still one of my favorites. For some reason, though, I never read any more Heinlein until a couple of months ago when I wanted something to read, so I figured, since Heinlein did such a good job with TMiaHM, I'd give him another whirl. Unfortunately for me, I picked up JOB. Now, I haven't read The Number of the Beast, or any of the other Heinlein novels being dragged thorugh the dirt, here. However, I'm surprised that noone has had anything caustic to say about Job. Now, to be fair, I found it rather interesting at first, but it soon became annoying, and finally preachy and completely unreadable. When I was done, I found it hard to believe that TMiaHM and Job were written by the same man. Chris Russell Computer Aided Design Lab University of Maryland Fone: (301)454-8886 UUCP: ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell Arpa: russell@king.ee.umd.edu Jnet: russell@umcincom ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 87 18:41:56 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.edu (Jim "Jack" Frost) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books 6103014@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU writes: >And, forgive me for saying so, *Stranger in a Strange Land* sucked. >The characters were intensly boring and the message was trite. I just finished rereading SIASL, and I feel that this NEEDS to be replied to. It's true that the book was not as exciting as it could have been, _IF_YOU_ONLY_PAID_ATTENTION_TO_THE_STORY_! If you looked behind what was being written and at what Heinlein was trying to say, the book was awesome. The organization of the book was incredible. The parts the characters played fit perfectly. No spoilers here: if you don't see what I'm talking about, reread it and think about biblical references. They're so obvious and well connected that I *have* to assume they were deliberate, which is something I rarely do. Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 2 Mar 87 19:01:23 GMT From: inuxm!arlan@rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books Gee, fellas, no one said everyone hates Heinlein. I rate him as the best SF writer, period. He has influenced my life as have few other persons, merely by sharing his philosophies in the course of telling his stories. I enjoyed every other book by RAH, but FRIDAY was the only one in which a superior person does NOT prevail, and in fact quits by running off to the frontier without having put up a significant fight. I didn't say it was poorly written (although I did not understand the significance of the detailed discussion of the star maps), I just said it was the worst--and I explained what I meant, as discussed in the last sentence. I have read all of his works, and have at least one edition of each of them including several first editions. To my sorrow, I have not yet met the man whom I respect above all others in our field. (A Heinlein hater would not have named a son after him, now, would he?) Arlan Andrews ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 87 00:36:22 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz >And what about Rhys' daughter. According to the geneology charts >she lived to be about 91 years old, and Rhys predicted that she >would be the greatest healer around. Nary a word. So many >potential story-lines! And Ms. Kurtz' writing just keeps getting >better and better! Well, I should hope so. Kurtz, for those of you who recall, was the target of Ursula LeGuin's article "From Elfland to Pooghkeepsie" (reprinted in _The Language of the Night_, which anyone interested in the literature of fantasy should read) in which the writing in a passage from _Deryni Rising_ is excoriated. I'm not sure I would criticize it on quite the same terms that LeGuin does, but even now there is room for improvement in Kurtz's style. I rather liked the Camber books, and by and large the current series I find to be a great disappointment. The narrative continuity of the three new Kelson books is much weaker, and the Deus Ex Machina in the middle of the third is terribly clumsy. Also, the books are too drawn out; the material of the first two books could have been condensed it one book, to its benefit. I am hoping that these problems will not beset the next set of "Camber" books, especially as I find those characters to be a lot stronger anyway. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 22 Feb 87 01:50:48 GMT From: osupyr!lum@rutgers.edu (Lum Johnson) Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore) writes: >ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: >> .. _The_Dispossessed_ [seems like] hard-core SF .. sociology .. >> full of blatantly obvious "symbolism" .. pounded through the >> reader's thick skull... >.. LeGuin's best work by far is THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS. ... >Also very good are ROCANNAN'S WORLD [,] CITY OF ILLUSIONS [and >such] beautifully gem-like short stories [as] "Winter's King", "The >Day Before the Revolution", and "Semley's Necklace"... I wish to strongly echo the above remarks. _The_Dispossessed_ seems to be intended, as is _Atlas_Shrugged_, primarily as a political essay (some would say propaganda). Unlike Rand, LeGuin has at least the merciful virtue of relative brevity. _TD_ is undoubtedly her _least_ representative work to date. In addition to the titles mentioned above, look for _The_Word_for_World_is_Forest_, a novel, which appeared previously in _Again,_Dangerous_Visions_ as a novella, and _The_Lathe_of_Heaven_, a novel, which has also been broadcast as a teleplay by PBS. I seem to half-recall something else, so I may followup with more later. Lum Johnson lum@ohio-state.arpa lum@osu-eddie.uucp cbosgd!osu-eddie[!osupyr]!lum ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 87 16:33:15 GMT From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alex B. Granok) Subject: Post-Holocaust Works Very recently, on the recommendation of many of the people on the net, I read _A Canticle for Leibowitz_. I did enjoy it. I was wondering if anyone out there can recommend any other post-holocaust books to me. I have read Paul O. Williams' series (The Pelbar Cycle), and enjoyed those for their entertain- ment value, but they really weren't outstanding sf/literature. Please reply via e-mail, as questions of this sort usually tend to flood the net (I got flamed for that once). However, if anyone wants to discuss the likelihood of these sort of novels... Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 18:33:16 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alex B. Granok) writes: >I was wondering if anyone out there can recommend any other >post-holocaust books to me. Alex, try the "Vision of Beasts" series by Jack(?) Lovejoy. He does some *very* interesting things with mutation. I also liked "Battle Circle" by Piers Anthony - this was originally a series of three short novels called "Sos the Rope", "Var the Stick", and "Neq the Sword", repackaged and reprinted at least a couple of times, now, including a recent edition which is currently on the stands. In a slightly different vein, "Battlefield Earth" by the oh-so-controversial L. Ron Hubbard is a post-alien-takeover book. This is a story in the classic good-guys versus bad-guys genre, more entertainment than thought provocation, but I wouldn't have minded if it had been twice as long. Kristopher Stephens Amdahl Corporation (408-746-6047) amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 87 17:19:32 GMT From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works >I was wondering if anyone out there can recommend any other >post-holocaust books to me. Darkness and Dawn, by George Allan England. (A classic, from near the start of the century). Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 03:22:19 GMT From: well!mandel@rutgers.edu (Tom Mandel) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works Not quite a traditional post-holocaust novel, but well worth picking up is Michael Swanwick's _In the Drift_ (New York: Ace Science Fiction Books, 1987). This is the second printing of a 1985 paperback. The setting is the Drift, a large part of New York and Pennsylvania made somewhat inhabitable by the Meltdown. The underlying device is what might have happened if 3 Mile Island actually suffered a complete and catastrophic meltdown. I recommend it highly. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Mar 87 0917-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #69 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 69 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (9 msgs) & Alan Quatermain (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Feb 87 18:36:56 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Aliens and the Computers xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU (Eugene) writes: >As to Aliens being very popular, I don't think it is because Aliens >is a sf movie, rather it is because it is a horror movie. By the >way Aliens is not a story of computer anyway. True, but part of the original (and much better) movie revolved around the fact that Ashe was an android, and would therefore do whatever the Company told him with no thought for the human cost. The sequel did continue to investigate Ripley's attitudes toward androids because of this, until it got sidetracked by Ramboism. Alien was a horror movie. Aliens was a war movie trying to be a horror movie. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 26 Feb 87 00:36:08 GMT From: hscfvax!spem@rutgers.edu (G. T. Samson) Subject: Re: Aliens and the Computers sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >Alien was a horror movie. Aliens was a war movie trying to be a >horror movie. No. Alien was a horror movie, true. But Aliens was an *action-adventure* movie - complete with cardboard archetypes (like the Evil Yuppie). And it had quite a bit of SUSPENSE, true, but not that much horror. Sorta just helped to stir up the viewer's emotions against the aliens. I agree, though, it would've been very interesting to dig deeper into Ripley's (and the future society's) feelings about androids. But neither picture really was set up to do that - maybe there'll be an "Alien III: The Social Study" 8-) G. T. Samson gts@hscfvax.HARVARD.EDU gts@borax.LCS.MIT.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 87 00:21:27 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu (becky) Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers") sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU (Eugene) writes: >>As to Aliens being very popular, I don't think it is because >>Aliens is a sf movie, rather it is because it is a horror movie. >>By the way Aliens is not a story of computer anyway. > >True, but part of the original (and much better) movie revolved >around the fact that Ashe was an android, and would therefore do >whatever the Company told him with no thought for the human cost. >The sequel did continue to investigate Ripley's attitudes toward >androids because of this, until it got sidetracked by Ramboism. > >Alien was a horror movie. Aliens was a war movie trying to be a >horror movie. Pardon me? WHAT? Please tell me I'm not the only one... ALIENS (with the "s") was an ADVENTURE movie, and was far better than the original. (-OF COURSE, this is MY OPINION!-=:^) Adventure movies are often popular! And I don't think this one was trying to be anything else. The original was a horror movie, and if you went to ALIENS looking for the same you were BOUND to be disappointed. But this is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that ALIEN was better than ALIENS. ALIENS has earned an honoured position on my "all-time favourites" list, while ALIEN doesn't even deserve a mention. Is my view rare? Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 87 00:52:40 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers") First, several people have posted comments to the effect that ALIENS was an action-adventure movie, not a war movie. Very true. I blanked on the term I wanted and settled for "war", which I knew wasn't quite right. Oddly enough, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that ALIENS was better than ALIEN! I did in fact go to both expecting a horror movie, and was disappointed in the second. It still could have been good if there had been anything interesting going on, but I knew that we would win in the end. The only thing that had me going was [SPOILER] whether the gutsy woman or the potential love interest would be the only other survivor. (That there had to be an "only other survivor" was clear from the beginning...) I was pretty sure it would be the potential love interest, so even that didn't surprise me. [END SPOILER] I sat through all of ALIENS thinking "if only they had rehired H. R. Giger, if only they had." For me, and everyone I know who has seen both (except you), the second movie was nowhere near as good as the first. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 87 21:28:02 GMT From: watmath!gamiddleton@rutgers.edu (Guy Middleton) Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers") becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes: > The original was a horror movie, and if you went to ALIENS looking > for the same you were BOUND to be disappointed. But this is the > first time I've ever heard anyone say that ALIEN was better than > ALIENS. ALIENS has earned an honoured position on my "all-time > favourites" list, while ALIEN doesn't even deserve a mention. > > Is my view rare? Fairly rare. Most people I know prefer the second film, but nevertheless like the first one a lot. The reason, I think, is that most people (myself included) find suspense films too difficult to watch. Alien was certainly as good a suspense movie as Aliens was an adventure; many people respond better to adventure, but still appreciate the suspense. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 87 06:53:59 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Alien vs Aliens becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes: >ALIENS (with the "s") was an ADVENTURE movie, and was far better >than the original. > >The original was a horror movie, and if you went to ALIENS looking >for the same you were BOUND to be disappointed. But this is the >first time I've ever heard anyone say that ALIEN was better than >ALIENS. ALIENS has earned an honoured position on my "all-time >favourites" list, while ALIEN doesn't even deserve a mention. > >Is my view rare? I don't know, but I hope so. "Aliens" was a fine, entertaining movie. "Alien" is one of the classics of cinema; it belongs with "Psycho" and "Jaws" as an example of the genuinely scary and brilliantly made shocker. One unique feature is the intense atmospheric effect of the mad Swiss artist, Hans Geiger. My only objection is that some scenes were cut as "too intense", which goes against the spirit of such a nightmare on film. Gene Ward Smith UCB Math Dept Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 87 23:01:15 GMT From: cpro!asgard@rutgers.edu (J.R. Stoner) Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers") One reason I liked ALIENS (with an S) better than ALIEN is the bad experience I had when I first saw ALIEN. I had previously read the novelization and wanted to see the movie. The following free day was (as it turned out) October 31. I would expect more civilized people to visit movie theaters in Berkeley. Between the guys lighting up funny cigarettes on the right and the bozo in front lighting firecrackers at the moments of high suspense it was a disaster. This is no reflection on the movie itself, just the bad associations I have with the film. This is also the reason why I will never go to a first-fun theater again. It will be either the rep-house or cable. [With HDTV with the scope-like aspect ratio coming soon my inclinations will be more toward cable.] J.R. Stoner asgard@cpro.UUCP asgard@wotan.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 87 21:33:17 GMT From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alex B. Granok) Subject: Now wait just a minute, here... Re: Aliens (was "and the Subject: Computers") becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes: >Pardon me? WHAT? Please tell me I'm not the only one... ALIENS >(with the "s") was an ADVENTURE movie, and was far better than the >original. (-OF COURSE, this is MY OPINION!-=:^) Adventure movies >are often popular! And I don't think this one was trying to be >anything else. The original was a horror movie, and if you went to >ALIENS looking for the same you were BOUND to be disappointed. But >this is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that ALIEN was >better than ALIENS. ALIENS has earned an honoured position on my >"all-time favourites" list, while ALIEN doesn't even deserve a >mention. > >Is my view rare? I disagree with panning ALIEN the way you obviously have. They are of two completely different genres. In my opinion, ALIEN was *much* more suspenseful and darker in tone then the sequel. I would classify it more as a suspense- thriller than as a horror movie. ALIENS was, I agree, an adventure movie. Don't get me wrong. I loved ALIENS, even more than the original. But I must say that I thought the original is a *very* good movie, and, in my opinion, much better science fiction than the sequel. This should have started a pretty good fire, so I'll just sit back and wait for the flames. :-) Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 2 Mar 87 17:09:13 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Now wait just a minute, here... Re: Aliens Here are my views of the two films. A major theme in the original film was the betrayal of the organic by both the organic and the inorganic (this was discussed by myself and some other folks here a while back at some length). Ripley wins out because she fights hard to retain her essential humanity -- she escapes becoming hamburger at one point, I recall, because she cares enough about the ship's cat to go back into hell to rescue it. The nightmarish quality of the film comes in large part from our perception that our own technological creations may turn against us, that in fact our own organic selves may eventually become corrupted by our obsession with the inorganic (which, of course, fits in well with the artist Giger's obsessions). Ripley nearly loses her life at one point because she can't follow the complicated instructions that are needed to undo the ship's destruct mechanism: just one instance in the film where humanity is nearly undone by its own creation. I also feel the second film is not as good (make that excellent) as the original. Why people insist that either should be classified as horror or adventure rather than SF is beyond me: ALIEN is in a class with John Campbell's classic story "Who Goes There?" and has a gritty realism that many SF films lack, and ALIENS is a variation on the subgenre "the Space Marines Meet the BEMs From Venus." :-) To me, they're both good SF providing you don't insist on "scientific accuracy" in your SF tales. The reading of SF should, after all, involve a certain suspension of disbelief. Cheers, BIll Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 87 19:01:57 GMT From: valid!jao@rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) Subject: Alan Quartermain films > Are the two Chamberlain flicks really two movies or just > one that was released [ as 'King Solomon's Mines' ] bombed, given > a new ad campaign and title [ 'Alan Quatermain, etc...' ] and > rereleased? Did anyone bother seeing either or both? I saw the first when it first came out. What a terrible movie! It is the type where, if the projectionist screwed up and showed the reels in the wrong order, no one would notice. Bimbo gets in a jam, Alan rescues her, bimbo gets in another jam, Alan rescues her, etc., etc., etc. You couldn't pay me enough to see another of those. (Well, I guess you could, but nobody would.) Why do reasonable actors like Richard Chamberlain make such stupid movies? Didn't he get to see the script first? Maybe they didn't have a script. John Oswalt amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 87 22:14:30 GMT From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) Subject: Alan Quatermain I haven't seen the Richard Chamberlain Alan Quatermain movies yet, but I was wondering if they bore any relation at all to the series of Quatermain (yes, I mean Quatermain not Quartermain) movies that were made in the fifties-sixties. One of these was called "Quatermain and the Pit," and there were about five of them. The one I saw had a spaceship found buried in London, that had once contained aliens that looked like grasshoppers. If anyone knows anything about any of this, please let me know so I'll know, too. Thanks. Karen Williams ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 87 15:24:45 GMT From: ostroff@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jack H. Ostroff) Subject: Re: Alan Quatermain >... One of these was called "Quatermain and the Pit," and ... I think you mean "Quatermass and the Pit." I believe they are totally unrelated. I also believe the Quatermass movies were discussed on this list several months ago (perhaps longer). ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 87 08:29:42 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Alan Quartermain [sic] films From: valid!jao (John Oswalt) >> Are the two Chamberlain flicks really two movies or just >> one that was released [ as 'King Solomon's Mines' ] bombed, given >> a new ad campaign and title [ 'Alan Quatermain, etc...' ] and >> rereleased? Did anyone bother seeing either or both? > > ...Why do reasonable actors like Richard Chamberlain make such > stupid movies? Didn't he get to see the script first? Maybe they > didn't have a script. It's quite possible that the script he first saw wasn't all that bad, but ended up going through so many revisions that whatever hypothetical worth existed was exorcised completely. To answer the original question: They are two separate movies. Cannon Films, in order to save location filming costs, filmed both movies back to back and just separated the releases by a year. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 87 14:43:01 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Alan Quatermain williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes: > I haven't seen the Richard Chamberlain Alan Quatermain movies yet, > but I was wondering if they bore any relation at all to the series > of Quatermain (yes, I mean Quatermain not Quartermain) movies that > were made in the fifties-sixties. One of these was called > "Quatermain and the Pit," and there were about five of them. The > one I saw had a spaceship found buried in London, that had once > contained aliens that looked like grasshoppers. If anyone knows > anything about any of this, please let me know so I'll know, too. No, you mean Quatermass, not Quatermain. The films are (in order): THE QUATERMASS XPERIMENT (U.S. title THE CREEPING UNKNOWN) QUATERMASS II (U.S. title ENEMY FROM SPACE) QUATERMASS AND THE PIT (U.S. title FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH) THE QUATERMASS CONCLUSION (released in the U.S. only on videocassette) Yes, the spelling of the first title is correct. All were based on BBC serials (or was the last ITV--I'm not clear on this). The last was merely re-edited from the serial; the rest were re-shot as films. THE GOON SHOW did a take-off of QUATERMASS & THE PIT called "The Scarlet Capsule." Mark thinks QUATERMASS AND THE PIT is the cat's whiskers, and in general knows much more about the films than I do, so he can add to this if he wishes. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Mar 87 0930-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #70 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 70 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Cherryh & Hogan & McCollum & Schmitz (6 msgs) & Stewart ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Feb 87 05:30:36 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Teckla roy@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Roy Mongiovi) writes: >dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes: >> Vlad finds out that for once, killing everybody wouldn't solve >> his problems. > >Oh, on the contrary, there's one point where killing everyone >*would* solve his problems. But unfortunately, a ghost appears to >talk him out of it :-) Killing everyone in that situation would solve every problem... except one: Cawti would probably kill *him* for it... >> What gives you the idea that people don't have guarantees of >> personal liberty on Dragaera? It seems to me that freedom is >> almost absolute there unless you break one of the unwritten laws >> like fighting between houses. Nobody bugged the revolutionaries >> until they started bugging the Empire. > >Ah, right. Did we read the same books? These are slaves in a >feudal system. The bone-crushing reality of simply having to >support their lives and pay their owners taxes must surely prevent >the idealistic nonsense Cawti was spouting. In the environment >described for the planet (Dragaera?), I don't see how they could >possibly act like 1960/70's protestors. It isn't until technology >allows you the leasure time necessary to have non-violent protest >that you find that sort of person. In feudal times you can only >expect bloody revolution. I don't see any evidence that >magic/sorcery is replacing technology enough to allow the Teckla to >act as they did in the novel. Consider the situation. Has there ever been a feudal society on Earth where the oppressed become the rulers every 17 emperors? Makes for some interesting thinking. >> As for the realism of the revolt: remember that these people, >> by-and-large, were neophytes at the revolutionary game. They >> didn't have a world were revolutions are common and one may >> study them for effectiveness. > >Right. And when Earth was in a corresponding place in its history, >it didn't have the sort of protestors described in Teckla. The >folks in Tecka had a lot of theory about how to boss the >establishment. Where did it come from? Their last turn at the Orb? >> Did you read this thing? That is explored in great depth. Vlad >> felt that murder of Dragearans was okay because of how they >> treated Easterners. Then, to his shock, he found out that he >> used to be one himself. Sorta like a southern bigot who finds >> out that he has a Black grandparent. > >Yeah. I've read Jhereg/Yendi twice, and Teckla once. How about >you? I understand the emphasis SKZB puts on Vlad's/Aliera's >relationship. I'm questioning the logic of the author's treatment >of that relationship. > >..siblings. What makes one lifetime (out of who knows how many) >special? Is it sensible that such concepts would exist to such a >people? It's not that Vlad was SPECIFICALLY Aliera's brother, it's the fact that Vlad hates Dragaerans because Dolivar hated Dragaerans. (Interesting subtopic: Aliera hints in JHEREG that both she and Sethra are guilty of helping set the stage for Dolivar's expulsion from the House of the Dragon. So -- is Sethra the actual origin of the Jhereg? *Did she know?*) Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 87 04:20:00 GMT From: render@uiucdcsb.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Chanur's Homecoming: Wow. I just finished reading the final installment of C.J. Cherryh's CHANUR series, and to put it mildly, it was a blast. The whole series has been good, but not too many books have kept me interested enough to stay up 'til 3am three nights in a row. The best plotting and dialogue I have read in many a moon. So, if you've been disappointed by other series (Hitchikers's Guide, Foundation, etc.), take heart. Some folks out there know how to finish a story. My only complaint is that it didn't last longer... Hal Render University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign render@b.cs.uiuc.edu (ARPA) render@uiuc.csnet (CSNET) {seismo,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!render (USENET) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Mar 87 18:59:31 GMT From: gallagher@husc4.HARVARD.EDU (paul gallagher) Subject: Re: Nonagression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy I haven't read the Giants trilogy, but one point which I think is relevant to your discussion is the high correlation between certain biological characteristics and the predatory lifestyle (in arthropods, cephalopods, and vertebrates). In particular, some biologists propose as an adaptive scenario for the origin of the Vertebrates the shift to active predation: "The earliest structures considered to be vertebrate probably developed during the time of the shift from filter-feeding to more active predation. This mode of life permitted and demanded greater metabolic expenditures at the cellular level, as well as a shift to improved gas exchange and distribution. Predation also provided the selection pressure for the development of major sense organs." (Northcutt, R.G. and C. Gans, The Genesis of the Neural Crest and Epidermal Placodes: A Reinterpretation of Vertebrate Origins, The Quarterly Review of Biology (1983) 58:1-28. Of course, scavengers and herbivores evolved secondarily. Northcutt and Gans may be wrong, but if they are right, it seems that fast-moving organisms with complex and efficient circulatory, digestive, and nervous systems and special sense organs would not evolve among organisms where predation on other animals is impossible. Paul Gallagher ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 87 19:20:31 GMT From: wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU Subject: McCollum PROCYON'S PROMISE question (SPOILER) I have a question about PROCYON'S PROMISE by Michael McCollum (Del Rey, 1985; ISBN 345-30296-6). This question involves a major "spoiler" of the plot, so if you haven't yet read the book, you should probably skip this article entirely. Toward the end of the book (Chapter 29; pp. 275-276), it is revealed that the "Makers" (the advanced civilization which sent out the Life Probes) and the "Star Travelers" (ST's, or "estees"; the civilization whose remnants were found by the human expedition to Procyon) were one and the same. This discovery came when PROM (the sentient computer on the starship _Procyon's_Promise_), as "she" was analyzing records of the Maker civilization on their abandoned home planet, came across a picture of a group of Makers working at the "First Landing" base on Procyon VII. What I don't understand is why PROM and the Alphan expedition didn't make the connection between the Makers and the ST's much, much sooner. Presumably, the language of the records on the Maker home planet should have been identical to the language of the records found by the Alphan colonists at the abandoned ST base. Yet, when it is stated that "PROM has cracked the Maker language" (Chapter 28; p. 269), no suggestion is given of any similarity between the Maker and ST languages. Also, I find it a bit odd that the FTL ship maintenance manual on the ST record strip found by the Alphans amidst the garbage of the base at First Landing (Chapter 3; p. 31) apparently didn't contain even one picture of a Star Traveler. One would at least have expected a diagram of the bridge, or some other room, showing "people" sitting in the chairs. If there had been any such pictures or diagrams, PROM -- or the Alphans -- would have recognized that the Makers and the ST's were one and the same when the scout ship saw the statue on the Maker planet (Chapter 27; p. 257). Does anyone have an explanation for these seeming inconsistencies? By the way, I very much enjoyed both PROCYON'S PROMISE and its predecessor, LIFE PROBE. I asked this question before, but does anyone know whether McCollum plans to put out another book in this series? Rich Wales UCLA Computer Science Department +1 213-825-5683 3531 Boelter Hall Los Angeles California 90024 // USA wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU (ucbvax,sdcrdcf,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!wales ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 87 02:27:10 GMT From: morganc@inst11.WISC.EDU (Morgan Clark) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: >I would be interested to hear of any books people can think of that >do not seem to fit in the category one would assume they would. For >instance, I always thought of Dhalgren as science fiction, and >suddenly four paragraphs ago I realized that it is more fantasy to >me. The Pern books are full of dragons, yet they are science >fiction. Are there any fantasy stories with spaceships? Try The_Witches_of_Karres by James Schmitz (sp?). This seems to be science fiction (main character is a spaceship pilot), but with a few witches thrown in for good measure... It's also a very good book. In fact, what is the difference between a fantasy story with witches/ spell casters of sorts and a science fiction story with psionically-endowed characters? Seems like they get the same results... Morgan Clark g-clark@gumby.wisc.edu morganc@puff.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 02:42:49 GMT From: mhuxu!davec@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction morganc@inst11.WISC.EDU (Morgan Clark) writes: > Try The_Witches_of_Karres by James Schmitz (sp?). This seems to be > science fiction (main character is a spaceship pilot), but with a > few witches thrown in for good measure... It's also a very good > book. Yes, this was a very good book. Has Schmitz ever written anything else? I've never found anything, but he is definitely on my purchasing-and-read list. Dave Caswell {allegra|ihnp4|...}!mhuxu!davec davec@borax.lcs.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 14:19:39 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction davec@mhuxu.UUCP writes: >morganc@inst11.WISC.EDU (Morgan Clark) writes: >> Try The_Witches_of_Karres by James Schmitz (sp?). This seems to >> be science fiction (main character is a spaceship pilot), but >> with a few witches thrown in for good measure... It's also a very >> good book. > >Yes, this was a very good book. Has Schmitz ever written anything >else? I've never found anything, but he is definately on my >purchasing-and-read list. James H Schmitz wrote LOTS of stuff, mostly published in Astounding/Analog. One series of stories was about a young human with a wild talent called Telzey Amberdon, now published as "The Universe Against Her", "The Telzey Toy", and "The Lion Game". Another excellent novel was serialised as "The Tuvela", and published I believe as "The Demon Breed". ------------------------------ Date: 22 Feb 87 22:18:19 GMT From: hyper!jmh@rutgers.edu (Joel Halpern) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction Unfortunately, although The_Witches_of_Karres was clearly written with a sequel in mind, Schmitz never wrote one before he died. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 87 22:48:16 GMT From: bnrmtv!perkins@rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins) Subject: Resurrect James Schmitz! (Was Re: fantasy and science Subject: fiction) > Unfortunately, although The_Witches_of_Karres was clearly written > with a sequel in mind, Schmitz never wrote one before he died. This is perhaps the best argument for resurrection I've come across. BRING BACK JAMES SCHMITZ! We want a sequel! Henry Perkins {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 87 17:50:07 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Resurrect James Schmitz! > Unfortunately, although The_Witches_of_Karres was clearly written > with a sequel in mind, Schmitz never wrote one before he died. I wonder about that. I'd give a lot for a sequel, and certainly there was *room* for a sequel, but I didn't get the impression that a sequel was intended. It's one of the sadder aspects of SF publishing today that a sequel that will be read will generally be written. Of *course* TWoK could have been turned into a never-ending-saga, but there are healthier alternatives than the NES and the happily-ever-after with all-loose-ends-tied. My impression, at the time of reading, and still, is that Schmitz chose the middle path of writing an excellent book that was complete in itself and then leaving the characters in the middle of what promised to be a busy and interesting life. I think I got more enjoyment from filling in the blanks myself than I would have from a sequel. And I'm not sure losing some of his later output in exchange for a sequel would have been that good a trade. (Having said that, and noting that I never took a vow of consistency: too bad he didn't write more Agent of Vega stories.) Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 23:17:01 GMT From: ut-ngp!tmca@rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alex B. Granok) writes: > Very recently, on the recommendation of many of the people on the > net, I read _A Canticle for Leibowitz_. I did enjoy it. I was > wondering if anyone out there can recommend any other > post-holocaust books to me. I have read Paul O. Williams' series > (The Pelbar Cycle), and enjoyed those for their entertain- ment > value, but they really weren't outstanding sf/literature. Please > reply via e-mail, as questions of this sort usually tend to flood > the net (I got flamed for that once). However, if anyone wants to > discuss the likelihood of these sort of novels... I'm posting this to the net 'cos I think that this particular book needs to be read a bit more than it is. I've been soaking up sf like a sponge for about 13 years now and only heard of George Stewart's book "Earth Abides" last year. It is a very well written and thoroughly believable account of the life of a man who survives a disease that wipes out 99.99% (or thereabouts) of the human race. It deals with many aspects of what one might expect to find in such a future, including the hero's coming to terms with his lonliness; his attempts to build a new society with the dregs of humanity that he can find and the application of 'law/justice/self-preservation'. It raises many questions: what is worth saving of our culture for future generations? Could *you* kill in cold blood to protect defenseless members of your community? Do you have the right to force your culture/knowledge on a generation that has no use for it, and is the history of such a failed culture even worth keeping? For such a remarkably good novel, I am amazed by its relative obscurity, even within sf fandom. It took me several trips to the local second-hand bookshop to find it (they have an excellent stock), it was republished shortly after I found my copy but I have no idea of the extent of its distribution. If you can find a copy - READ IT! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Mar 87 0939-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #71 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 71 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Terminology (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Feb 87 08:59:23 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: > Are there any fantasy stories with spaceships? Yes, try 'The Copper Crown' (current, but author forgotten). Involves celts, atlantis, science, magic and yes, spaceships... I could tell from the cover that this had to be horrible, but out of some masochistic impulse bought it anyway. Actually turned out to be kind of fun... There really is no good definition or border. My best guess is that Science Fiction extrapolates from the possible, Fantasy from the impossible. The grey area must therefore extrapolate from the improbable 8-) George Robbins ucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 87 03:04:50 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus Subject: 'SCI-FI') sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >Becky, you seem to think of science fiction mostly as what is often >called "hard sf". As in Sagan's pi-meter, now beaten to death [I >hope]. But much science fiction is not about science or technology >at all, although the science functions as a *necessary* *backdrop* >for the story. For example, consider LeGuin's "The Word for World >is Forest", and Leinster's "Martian Odyssey". These stories are >about alien (== strange, mysterious) ways of thinking; but they use >the metaphor of aliens (== from space) to say their piece. I agree! I read very little sf that is concerned with science or technology, though I wish I could read more (just can't get through a lot of it). I read for characters -if I don't like the characters, I don't enjoy the book- and a lot of "hard sf" has fairly poor characterization (or characterization that I disagree with, at any rate). But a book can have a scientifically plausible setting without describing that setting in detail. A lot of "lit" sf can be dissected in English class, for its themes of the human mind and world. If the entire story takes place on a primitive world, with no spaceships or lazer pistols or toilets, it can still be sf. I'll mention CJCherryh's Morgaine books later, and you mention McCaffery's Pern. Both have a background or assumed background that suggests, not techie stuff, but a world that is a series of possible steps away from present scientific knowledge. Some involve bigger steps; though I prefer CJ's writing to McCaffery's, I do have an easier time believing Pern than I do the worlds of GATE OF IVREL. If a writer uses an alien to tell us about humans, he still has a choice between having that alien's physical existence relate in steps to our knowledge of what's physically possible and not bothering to make that alien believable outside its metaphoric uses. Elves, usually called "fantastic creatures" rather than "aliens", can still be used to describe "human nature". The background used for "fantastic creatures" is very different from the background used for "aliens" -I'm not comparing a primitive world to one with spaceships, etc., but an approach to the reasons for the worlds' existences- no matter what the writers' reasons for telling the stories. >>`Fantasy' deals in the same manner with the corresponding laws of >>other universes; since we have as yet no proof that other >>universes even exist, let alone the possibility that they are >>governed by laws that are substantially different from ours, > >This is fascinating. I read what you said here and was all set to >jump in with, "But by that definition, Dhalgren is fantasy." And >then I thought about it a little, and decided that yes, it is. Sure. The feel of Dhalgren is all sf; it's hard, it's gritty, and set in a world so clearly related to our own. Fantasy is usually all poetry, all full of sunshine and healing magic... How can Dhalgren be classed with that?! But either Dhalgren is a mainstream novel or it is fantasy, because it is either Kidd's mind or his world that continues to defy universal laws as we know them. >Does what you are saying here mean that fantasy is just science >fiction with different physical laws? That's a twist; I've seen >people argue that science fiction is a subgenre of fantasy (cf. >Laura above), but the other way around is rare. > >>fantasy is far more abstract than sf. This genre also deals with >>possibilities that MAY apply to our own universe, but that are so >far removed from our current knowledge that they may as WELL be >found in another universe. > >But this, then, definitely includes such things as >faster-than-light travel and communication, terraforming, genetic >engineering on a grand scale, and many other staples of "science >fiction". Also psychic powers, a staple of much fantasy (which I >personally believe in about as much as I believe in warp drive, but >I'm quite willing to have others disagree). It depends on the reader. You talked about the "grey area" between genres. For some, this area is quite large. For others, it barely exists at all. Given my definitions of the two genres (or sub-genres, perhaps of that other "sf", "speculative fiction"), the grey area is then the reader's perception of what possibilities belong in the universe as we know it now. For example: I have a strong scientific background with very little scientific fact (the way of thinking without the results, if you will); so if something is presented to me clearly and logically, with backing from the "real" world, I am very likely to accept it without proof. FTL travel and communication seem reasonable to me; though I've often heard people say that such is impossible by our current understanding of the universe, I know so few facts that I go by presentation alone. (so much for "scientific method", eh?) You also use genetic engineering as an example of what must fall into fantasy. (rather, you say "genetic engineering on a grand scale") This is something I HAVE read something about, and discussed several times with other people. My knowledge is still superficial, but I know enough to be sure (unlike my feelings for FTL) that even "on a grand scale" is only a matter of time. >When you say that "fantasy has the greater possibility for error", >you seem to mean, again, in contrast to "hard sf", the stories >written by physicists who include afterwords with references to the >relevant scientific journals. But what is "Star Wars", then? >Scientifically, I believe it less than Hambly's "Darwath" series. Fantasy. Definitely fantasy. Does anyone out there really think otherwise? I mean, by publishers/producers' classifications, it's "that sci-fi stuff", but by content and thought? Fantasy. >I have seen science fiction described (I don't think I want to say >"defined") as a genre of writing in which the writer gets to make >one outrageous assumption or set of assumptions (FTL travel, >genetic engineering) and then must be reasonable for the rest of >the story, so that things follow from the ground the wild >assumption laid. I like that description, and I enjoy fiction that follows it, but it is very exclusive. A LOT of what I call "sf" doesn't fit. >understand you correctly, you are saying that the main difference >between science fiction and fantasy is that in fantasy, that >assumption can be more outrageous than it can in science fiction. And with much less of a logical approach. I guess presentation is my weak spot, but writers get caught by this too. CJCherryh has said that her Morgaine books (soon to go past trilogy) are fantasy. I don't know whether or not she still maintains that, but most of her fans agree that the books are sf. They concern the travels of a woman whose goal is to close Gates, which are basically teleportation booths. The worlds involved are "sword & sorcery" settings, and Morgaine uses a "magic" sword to find the Gates and close them behind her. And the Gates can transport people through time as well as space. Normally, I class anything to do with time travel as fantasy, and teleportation has never been one of my favourite modes of travel. But something in the way Carolyn presented the Gates and the worlds found -and often detroyed- by them made me class the books as sf. Again, it's a personal judgment. But the approach or presentation of the author counts for a lot. >I think part of the problem with trying to find some sort of line >between fantasy and science fiction is that which category we >perceive something as being in depends, not so much on its subject >matter (spaceships vs. dragons) but on the way it is presented, and >"the way it is presented" is terribly difficult to quantify. (I >never did like English classes where you dissected a story into >little bits...) Is it just a historical fluke that spaceships are >correlated strongly with what is felt to be "science fiction"? Absolutely! -Which is why the publisher's classifications can't be taken too seriously. They ARE a help, though, because most of the writers that write well using spaceships are interested in making those spaceships "real", or in showing off whatever scientific knowledge they can claim, while the fantasy writers don't seem to feel the same way at all. >I would be interested to hear of any books people can think of that >do not seem to fit in the category one would assume they would. For >instance, I always thought of Dhalgren as science fiction, and >suddenly four paragraphs ago I realized that it is more fantasy to >me. The Pern books are full of dragons, yet they are science >fiction. Are there any fantasy stories with spaceships? I guess Hitchiker's Guide would best be classed as humour. As I mentioned above, CJCherryh's GATE OF IVREL, WELL OF SHIUAN, and FIRES OF AZEROTH have had a bit of trouble with classification. STAR WARS is a fantasy with space-ships - but then, ships that BANK in mid-space aren't really spaceships. I can't think of any fantasy stories with spaceships offhand, but someday, when I unpack my book-boxes (at last I have discovered that I hate moving!), I'll take a look. I suspect most of them are really just bad attempts at sf. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 16:34:52 GMT From: eppstein@tom.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) Subject: fantasy and science fiction dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: > Other fantasies don't bother with laws or allow virtually anything > (cf "Her Majesty's Wizard" (I think; author's name forgotten) > where the magician may do anything if he can compose a poem to > describe it). It's by Stasheff. I agree with your general point, but you've picked a bad example; magic in HMW does obey certain specific laws following from medieval religious beliefs; divine right of kings is one such. David Eppstein eppstein@cs.columbia.edu Columbia U. Computer Science Dept. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 23:40:47 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@rutgers.edu (The Cute Cuddle Creature) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction morganc@inst11.WISC.EDU (Morgan Clark) writes: >sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: >>I would be interested to hear of any books people can think of >>that do not seem to fit in the category one would assume they >>would. [...] Are there any fantasy stories with spaceships? >Try The_Witches_of_Karres by James Schmitz (sp?). Also try _The_Warlock_in_Spite_of_Himself_, by Christopher Stasheff. One of the more enjoyable SF/F books I've run into, although the rest of the series pretty much fell flat for me. . . . It's almost totally fantasy, but with a small amount of "technology" thrown in; might fit your bill. Michael A. Justice BITNet: cscj0ac@bostonu CSNET: boreas%bucsb@bu-cs UUCP: ....!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas ARPA: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 87 01:24:38 GMT From: elron@ihlpm.ATT.COM (Gary F. York) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction Well, at last I've been sucked in. First, my own bias is not toward fantasy; though I read fairy tales as a kid, all the OZ books and so forth, I gave it up utterly when I discovered science fiction. I did read , _The Hobbit_, (ho hum), but could never manage to finish even the first book of the Rings trilogy. Just couldn't bring myself to give a damn. I'd say I mostly subscribe to the gradient scale theory which has "hard" SF on one end and "pure" fantasy on the other. There is probably a catagory between the extreems which can legitimately be called "science fantasy". Pure fantasy seems almost always: lets pretend fairys are real. Or let's pretend magic works -- something like that. The emphasis of the story is then on the character of the elves, fairys or what have you or on some quest. Science fantasy begins with concern for lawfulness. If magic is present, the magic has strict rules of use, ie., a technology. There is underlying order to the universe (however bizarre it may initially appear) and some significant part of the story involves the discovery or presentation of this order. The science end of this sub-genre appears when we discover that the magic is really psionics (with at least some attempt to show that "mental" powers are lawful) or that the gods/godesses are aliens with advanced technology (read magic). Hard science fiction is characterized by _both_ strict lawfulness ( NO assumptions, new technology, etc. that is deemed impossible by our current understanding of science ) and rather more concern with technology or science than with character development. Yes, to be a _good_ story, it must have interesting characters but the emphasis is on interesting characters doing interesting _things_ rather than on the character growing/changing in interesting ways. If a good science-fiction story is strictly lawful but the thrust of the story is on character development, we tend, I think, to consider it simply good sf rather than good HARD sf. Much of the charm of a hard sf story is the realization that, yes, as far as we know now these things really could be; we believe that (much of) the technology could actually be attained. SF which uses an ftl drive could be considered hard sf only to the extent that the author is sucessful in convincing the readers that there is a way in which it MIGHT be possible. These days, it seems, that is becoming increasingly difficult. (Though I suspect few long time readers of science fiction really believe, in their gut, that ftl is impossible!) All of this suggests that a three dimensional classification system might be more appropriate: Emphasis on charaters vs. emphasis on technology (the CT continum) and "everyday" reality vs. strange reality (the ES continum). If the scale runs 10 to -10, (CT,ES): Mainstream would be character/everday reality (10,10) Fantasy would be character/strange reality (10,-10) Hard SF would be technology/slightly non everyday (-10,7) Science fantasy would be technology/strange (-10,-10) Normal science fiction would likely fit in the box defined by the points (10,9) (CAN"T have sf with everyday reality) and (-7,-7) (If it's too damn strange, it must be fantasy). Cyberpunk is likely (8,9) - (0,0). I see it as largely concerned with the characters in a more or less everyday (but extrapolated) future. ( That it's a technological future makes it cyber, that it's dismal makes it punk! ). Of course, all of this ignores optomistic/pesimistic, craftmanship, new-wave/experimental vs. standard tale-telling, etc. But more than three dimensions is awkward to visualize for most of us. Gary F. York (312) 979-0477 Bell Labs Naperville, Il. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Mar 87 0952-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #72 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 72 Today's Topics: Books - Thieve's World (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 February 1987 08:33:48 CST From: U09862 at UICVM (Carlo N. Samson ) Subject: Thieves' World Covers A quick question: Who are the three characters depicted on the original "Thieves' World" covers? I know one of the is Lythande, but I can't identify the other two. Another question: If Lythande is actually female, then why is he shown as male on the covers of "Thieves' World", but as female on the cover of Marion Zimmer Bradley's novel "Lythande"? Carlo Samson U09862@uicvm ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 87 21:51:06 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers ** Lythande spoiler if you care ** U09862@UICVM.BITNET writes: >Another question: If Lythande is actually female, then why is he >shown as male on the covers of "Thieves' World", but as female on >the cover of Marion Zimmer Bradley's novel "Lythande"? Because the fact that Lythande is female is a vital spoiler, not to be given away on the cover. However, anyone reading the Lythande novel is assumed to have already learned this from the Thieves' World books. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 87 20:14:51 GMT From: 6100192@PUCC.BITNET (Sundeep Amrute) Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers U09862@UICVM.BITNET writes: >A quick question: Who are the three characters depicted on the >original "Thieves' World" covers? I know one of the is Lythande, >but I can't identify the other two. The other two characters are Hanse Shadowspawn and Cappen Varra ("the only honest man in sanctuary"), both of whom appear to have been dropped from the series. The current writers seem to consider any characters who aren't demigods and/or mages too dull to bother with. BITNET: 6100192@PUCC UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET.6100192 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Feb 87 06:52:26 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!) >Another question: If Lythande is actually female, then why is he >shown as male on the covers of "Thieves' World", but as female on >the cover of Marion Zimmer Bradley's novel "Lythande"? Lythande is actually female. However, her vow to the Blue Star is such that if anyone ever finds out she is female, she dies, so she masquerades as a male. Which shows how poorly the Bantam cover artist (I think it was another Kevin "accuracy? I don't need no accuracy!" Johnson, as a matter of fact) read the book -- the person on the cover of Lythande could NEVER pass herself off as male for more than about 4 seconds, even at a blind man's convention. Which gives me a chance to blow on a pet peeve -- the reason most authors don't get control of the cover is because the publishers claim that the authors don't know what works and the art director is a PROFESSIONAL. Cosidering the track record of artists/directors at some publishing houses (I won't name names, although Bantam and Baen come to mind...) do, they'd be MUCH better letting the author take a crack at it. Or perhaps a chimpanzee. Oh, well, so much for getting published... Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 15 Feb 87 07:06:36 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers > The other two characters are Hanse Shadowspawn and Cappen Varra > ("the only honest man in sanctuary"), both of whom appear to have > been dropped from the series. The current writers seem to > consider any characters who aren't demigods and/or mages too dull > to bother with. Not true. As in the case of Lythande (written by MZ Bradley) Shadowspawn (written by Andrew Offutt) and Cappen Varra (written by Poul Anderson) all left the series when the author decided they didn't want to write for Thieves' World any more. The basic rule of the shared world is that you could use a character in your story, but you couldn't markedly change it without the authors permission. When the author that 'owned' a character dropped out, so did the character. This isn't the fault of the TW world people -- while they have lost some of their interesting characters (One Thumb, as well as the above named) I think they're MUCH better off than if they'd tried to write for characters they didn't create -- Asprin or Abbey writing a Shadowspawn would be an unmitigated disaster. All is not hopeless, of course -- MZB, since she owned Lythande, took her to her own, unshared, universe and wrote a bunch of pretty good stories outside of the shared world restrictions. Offutt was theoretically writing a Shadowspawn novel, whether inside or outside of TW I don't know, but I haven't heard word on it in a year, so perhaps it died. I, personally, really miss Shadowspawn, but I also think that TW has done real well in handling the (unexpected) success and the problems it caused. Remember, they planned one book, not nine (plus novels, with #10 on its way), and it isn't surprising that the less motivated authors with lots of other (better paying) projects declined to continue. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 87 02:19:56 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu (becky) Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers U09862@UICVM.BITNET writes: >A quick question: Who are the three characters depicted on the >original "Thieves' World" covers? I know one of the is Lythande, >but I can't identify the other two. Another question: If Lythande >is actually female, then why is he shown as male on the covers of >"Thieves' World", but as female on the cover of Marion Zimmer >Bradley's novel "Lythande"? A while back, Asprin & Abbey sent out a newsletter/publishing list to people who had, at some time in the past, written to them about Thieves' World. You can probably get a copy now if you write to them, but it's really just a list of books and prices, and a couple of pages on what you can't do on your own with Thieves' World (and no pages on what you CAN). Anyway, I believe it was in that newsletter that they said that the three characters on the cover of the first book were originally supposed to represent every-Sanctuarite. Obviously the artist picked up on Lythande's Blue Star. Lythande is actually female, but she appears to be male to most of those who see her. Her sex is her `big secret'; doesn't she hold her powers through this, or something? Anyway, it would be pretty silly to paint a cover of Lythande sitting undisguised at table with two strangers! Becky Slocombe. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 15:13:46 GMT From: eneevax!russell@rutgers.edu (Christopher Russell) Subject: Thieves' World 6100192@PUCC.BITNET writes: > The other two characters are Hanse Shadowspawn and Cappen Varra > ("the only honest man in sanctuary"), both of whom appear to have > been dropped from the series. The current writers seem to > consider any characters who aren't demigods and/or mages too dull > to bother with. A few messages back (I'm not sure where), someone mentioned that after the seventh or eighth Thieves' World book, they started to get better. I was seriously considering starting to read them again (since I stopped at about book five or six, whichever one the fish people showed up in) but after reading the above quote, I don't think I will. When the stories started, they covered a wide range of personalities and situations, from nobility to the scum of the street, with a little magic thrown in to keep things unstable. As the books ran on, however, it seemed like the Gods were coming in to take over. I mean, Gods are nice and everything, but it seems like they were EVERYWHERE in Sanctuary. You couldn't walk down the street without passing a God or two. I really got put off, though, when Hanse Shadowspawn got involved with the Gods. Now to hear that Shadowspawn and Cappen Verra have been dropped in the later books, I find it hard to believe that the stories can actually get better. Chris Russell Computer Aided Design Lab University of Maryland Fone: (301)454-8886 Jnet: russell@umcincom UUCP: ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell Arpa: russell@king.ee.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 87 01:32:13 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!) >Which gives me a chance to blow on a pet peeve -- the reason most >authors don't get control of the cover is because the publishers >claim that the authors don't know what works and the art director >is a PROFESSIONAL. Cosidering the track record of >artists/directors at some publishing houses (I won't name names, >although Bantam and Baen come to mind...) do, they'd be MUCH better >letting the author take a crack at it. Or perhaps a chimpanzee. I see we share a pet peeve. Related pet peeve: Most publishers don't seem to feel it's important to credit the cover artist anywhere in the book. The few times I see a well-done cover -or a well-done painting, whether or not it's true to the story- I like to know who to thank. How do you feel about Whelan's cover work? He does get an awful lot of good press, but it is often justifiable; he seems to have done a lot of research work, on CJCherryh covers in particular, and though he still puts a lot of flash and colour into his paintings, they are quite often fairly accurate. Does DAW (Carolyn's publisher) make an effort to have his artists read the books they are assigned to, or is that a Whelan trait? (Mind you, Whelan still put Morgaine in near-bikini armor, so he isn't anywhere near infallible. I prefer the painting style of James Gurney, who's done covers for the Jane Gaskell reprints and second-last Edward Llewellyn book, but Whelan is GOOD.) Why is it that the publishers seem to be all too pleased to have sf selling in mainstream markets while continuing to have their artists to paint covers that are supposed to attract the sf readers that now, for the most part, know better? Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 00:52:28 GMT From: bnrmtv!zarifes@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes) Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!) > Lythande is actually female. However, her vow to the Blue Star is > such that if anyone ever finds out she is female, she dies, so she > masquerades as a male. Which shows how poorly the Bantam cover > artist (I think it was another Kevin "accuracy? I don't need no > accuracy!" Johnson, as a matter of fact) read the book -- the > person on the cover of Lythande could NEVER pass herself off as > male for more than about 4 seconds, even at a blind man's > convention. Does Lythande use magic to cast an illusion of being male? Or does she just have masculine features? Or both? Ken Zarifes {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 17:45:21 GMT From: robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen) Subject: Lythande's vow. (Was Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!)) zarifes@bnrmtv.UUCP (Kenneth Zarifes) writes: >Does Lythande use magic to cast an illusion of being male? Or does >she just have masculine features? Or both? I believe that the result of Lythande being discovered as a woman is not her death, but rather "power over her" goes to the discoverer. Of course the the discoverer is Rabban the Half-Handed this could be bad... Lythande had another vow per se, which stated that she would not eat with any man (?). This was exemplified in Lythande's encounter with Cappan Vara in an early story, wherein she smoked some, ah, leafy substance, while Cappan Vara ate. Also, I think that it clearly states in one of the early books that Lythande just looks more like a guy than a gal. I.e., loose clothes, rough hair, drawn skin. Magic? Feh! Robert Allen, robert@spam.istc.sri.com ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 18:12:06 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!) zarifes@bnrmtv.UUCP (Kenneth Zarifes) writes: >Does Lythande use magic to cast an illusion of being male? Or does >she just have masculine features? Or both? She masquerades as a male, and has androgynous features. Which is why the cover is exceptionally stupid, since the person on the cover is obviously female, both in the cheekbones and the eyebrows. sigh.... Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 18:33:18 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: cover art (was: Thieves' World Covers) becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes: >I see we share a pet peeve. Related pet peeve: Most publishers >don't seem to feel it's important to credit the cover artist >anywhere in the book. The few times I see a well-done cover -or a >well-done painting, whether or not it's true to the story- I like >to know who to thank. Almost all of the reputable houses are putting cover names on the works these days. Older works, no, but the newer ones. Most times, it is on the Copyright page. >How do you feel about Whelan's cover work? He does get an awful >lot of good press, but it is often justifiable; Whelan is technically superb. If you've never seen his stuff for real (the painting, not covers or posters) you'll find they are real marvels. I also find that a lot of his covers are static and leave me bored. If you want to see some artwork that lives, look at early Don Maitz. His later stuff is too glitzy for my tastes... >he seems to have done a lot of research work, on CJCherryh covers >in particular, and though he still puts a lot of flash and colour >into his paintings, they are quite often fairly accurate. Does DAW >(Carolyn's publisher) make an effort to have his artists read the >books they are assigned to, or is that a Whelan trait? That is a Whelan trait. Art is done any number of ways: An artist has a piece hanging around, and the publisher buys it (this is standard for foreign work, unfortunately) An artist does a piece from a summary done by an editorial assistant An artist gets a galley, and scans around for something interesting to paint An artist reads the galley. Whelan is known for carefully reading a manuscript before painting, and also for calling the author for hints and suggestions. He tends to worry about things like eye and hair color -- even if they aren't in the book. George Barr is another artist like this; someone who feels his art should complement the book, not just cover it. Most artists, however, don't seem to want to do that kind of work, and most art directors don't push for it. When you're in charge of 35 different covers in different stages of completion, I guess it is hard to really worry about one. A good example of carelessness is Kevin Johnson. He's done a number of really bad covers for Ace and Bantam. My favorite botch is "The Sorcery Within" by Dave Smeds, with two Bedouin types in a desert riding horses. The only problem: no horses in the book! the things they ride look vaguely like mule deer -- but the horses were well drawn, of course. Just wrong. He also did the covers for Feist's four book trilogy in paperback. (although the two Magician covers were basically the same in different covers, so there are really three and a half covers). Mostly they're boring, but the Silverthorn cover is again wrong -- he obviously didn't read the book. And when you compare them to the covers on the doubleday hardbacks (the silverthorn hardback cover has a mistake, but an appropriate one....) you realize exactly how boring they are. sigh. >Why is it that the publishers seem to be all too pleased to have sf >selling in mainstream markets while continuing to have their >artists to paint covers that are supposed to attract the sf readers >that now, for the most part, know better? They are two different markets. The books selling to the mainstream DON'T have those kinds of covers -- Whelan does a LOT of the covers for books that show up on the NYT list; for example Mirror of Her Dreams by Donaldson. The only read exception to that are the Anthony books and covers, but I won't get into that discussion.... Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Mar 87 1007-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #73 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 73 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Boskone XXIV & Conspiracy (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Feb 87 14:30:05 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu Subject: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report Boskone XXIV by Evelyn C. Leeper 1. Thursday 1.1 Holiday on Ice Boskone XXIV got off to an inauspicious start for us--we drove up to Massachusetts in a blizzard. It took an hour and a half to go the first 50 miles, but then the roads got better and we made it to South Hadley in about five hours, not much more than it usually takes. The car, of course, was covered with road dirt (the parking lights were totally blacked out), but since we weren't driving into Boston, we just wiped off the lights and left it at that. 2. Friday After our traditional pizza and a night's sleep we set off, but not without further difficulties. Dave's car was low on oil, and when he went to fill it, a plastic hose broke off in the cold (about 0 degrees Fahrenheit). Luckily it turned out to be a hose that only kept the oil cap from getting misplaced but we had a couple of bad moments. So we picked up Kate and off we went. This trip was much smoother--only about an hour and a half into Boston, but then it took us about 20 minutes to find a spot in the parking garage (after moving the sign that said "Full--Hotel Guests Only" which had thoughtfully been placed right in the center of the entrance). The hotel area was full (it was about 2PM) but we finally found a space in the general-purpose area. 2.1 Registration Check-in was relatively quick--the hotel had learned from previous years and gave out the registration forms to be filled in when you got into line, so by the time your turn at the window came, you were done with it. In our case it took a little longer because we wanted two rooms with two double beds each, next to each other, and on a low floor. Well, you can't have everything--we ended up on the 15th floor. Also, Kate was trying to get Cynthia's name into the computer so that when she showed up she could get another key. And finally, both Mark and Kate had to go to another desk to get second keys for the rooms (you'd think that the hotel would know that a double room should have two keys). After checking in we popped down to registration, which didn't officially open until 3:30 but opened at 3:15 for pre-registerees. They didn't really have their act together for the hand-outs though (they didn't have packets this years, just stacks of sheets) and we had to go back three times to get everything. We then ate and came back to hit the huckster room. There were more book dealers this year--a good sign--but not all the tables were open yet. I saw Saul Jaffe and we talked about the future of Usenet et al for a while. 2.2 Panel: Soviet Year in Space When everyone finally showed up we went out for dinner at our usual Chinese restaurant and then hit the Star Market for munchies on the way back. At 9PM I went to the "Soviet Year in Space" panel, which was sponsored by the Boston L5 Chapter. It was very slow-moving--most of the hour was spent in detailing the Soviet program from its inception, complete with boring slides. Not much was said about their current ventures. There wasn't much in the way of parties Friday night--we dropped into the Hobokon in '92 Party briefly but went to bed fairly early. 3. Saturday Saturday morning we were going to go to a coffee shop across the street for breakfast, but the wind chill factor was about 10 below so we settled for Brighams in the Prudential Center itself--still a chilly walk. Kate and I stopped in the liquor store on the way back to pick up a bottle of wine--we decided to move up in the world and get one with a cork, so we had to buy a corkscrew also. 3.1 Panel: Golem Legend At 11:30 we went to the "Cliches in Fantasy Film" panel, but it wasn't going to start until after LABYRINTH finished, which obviously wasn't going to be until about noon, so we proceeded directly to the "Golem Legend" panel. Unfortunately the panel leader didn't (we discovered later that he was on the "Cliches" panel, an example of poor scheduling if ever there was one), so about a dozen of us sat around for ten minutes waiting. I kept telling Mark he should lead the discussion but he didn't want to. Finally someone said he had come to find out just what a golem was. I convinced Mark to explain it to him and pretty soon, everyone had pulled their chairs into a circle and was discussing the golem and Jewish legends in general. At the end I asked if anyone could recommend any good golem novels and one person said that I really should read the recent article in LAN'S LANTERN about golems--the one that Mark wrote! When I pointed out that Mark had written it, a couple of people told him how good they thought it was. It turned out that one person (Mark Blackman) there was a regular LAN'S LANTERN contributor and another (Mark Keller) had written a really great article on alternate histories in THE PROPER BOSKONIAN. (Gee, 'Mark' sure is a popular name!) We started talking about alternate histories in the hallway and Keller mentioned that the all-time worst was John Jakes's BLACK IN TIME. He started describing it and a woman who came along just then recognized the description and commented that it was the worst science fiction she had ever read. Keller plans on publishing his alternate history bibliography in a year or two--I can't wait! 3.2 Panel: Gay Characters and Themes Because this discussion ran over, I got to "Gay Characters and Themes" late. The room for this was packed, but the discussion wasn't particularly good. There seemed to be two schools of thought: one group thought that gay characters should be just another kind of character; the other thought that it was important to show how gay characters dealt with societal problems. It boils down to whether the society being described is tolerant or not, and both sides seemed to think that not enought was being done to show their point of view. There was some question as to when the first AIDS-related science fiction would be published, but no real answer (obviously). 3.3 Art Show I then took a quick run through the art show, running into Saul again. He was wearing his SF-Lovers' Digest t-shirt, which reminded me that I should have brought mine. Oh well.... The art show itself was about average--a lot of media-related works, a fair amount of cutesy fantasy, and some really good pieces either not for sale or priced out of most people's range. The art shows are becoming more art displays and less art sales than they used to be, I think. 3.4 What's Boston Without a Lobster Dinner? Kate and I wanted to go to the "USSR/US Manned Space Mission" presentation at 5PM, but I definitely wanted to make the "Electronic Fanac" panel at 7PM and Kate wanted to go to the "Warpods" presentation at 7 also, so we all decided to go to dinner at 5. We went to the Atlantic Seafood Company, where I had an excellent lobster dinner. We weren't quite finished by 7, but I probably didn't miss too much at the panel. SF-Lovers' Digest will be mentioned in an article in the April issue of OMNI. Jerry Boyajian was there with an article on Sherlock Holmes for me (yet more books on the subject to look for!). 3.5 Mod.movies is Reborn After the panel started to dissolve, several people convinced me to volunteer to moderate "mod.movies" on Usenet. (Actually, it's going to be rec.arts.movies.reviews.) Shows what a glass of wine and an after-dinner drink will do! 3.6 Readercon There were more parties Saturday night, but the elevator situation was a real mess. We took the elevator up to the 22nd floor where we dropped in on the Readercon party. Readercon is a new convention emphasizing (you guessed it!) reading. The first one will be this June in Brookline and Gene Wolfe will be the Guest of Honor. The hotel situation is a little strange (the hotel won't take credit cards, only checks, and normally won't take cancellations withing three weeks of the date, though the Con committee thinks they can get them to make an exception for us--given the non- subsidized nature of this convention as compared to a business convention.) Kate may lead a discussion group on the modern horror novel--I keep telling Dave he should lead one on the "Gor" novels. 3.7 UMassSFS 25-Year Reunion Planned Then we walked down to the 19th floor where we dropped in on the BoF (Bunch of Fans) Party. (BoF is a Western Massachusetts fan group.) Mark, Dave, Joe Ross, and I got to talking about the last UMassSFS reunion that was held at Dave's place about ten years ago. We started saying there should be another soon, one thing led to another, and before we knew what had happened, we realized that 1989 was the 25th anniversary of the founding of UMassSFS and also the year of Noreascon III. So we decided to organize a 25-year re-union to be held at Noreascon III. One of the people still in the Amherst area will get the list of all the past officers, Joe Ross will get their addresses from the Alumni Association, and he and/or I will try to contact all of them. We also plan to advertise in the alumni newsletter and fannish publications. This should be a lot of fun--after all, we have two years to plan it! 3.8 HASA Party Then we walked back down to our rooms on the 15th floor. I called down to the 6th floor to make sure the HASA party was still going on before I walked all the way down. It was so I did. Sure enough, there were Mikki Barry, Charlie Wingate, Jonathan Trudel, and six copies of Rich Rosen, along with an open copy of the Gideon Bible. After hanging out there for a while, I walked back up to the 15th floor and went to sleep. 4. Sunday 4.1 Godzilla Makes an Appearance Sunday morning was Brigham's again, then back for the "Godzilla" panel. Billed as "Everything you always wanted to know about Godzilla," this turned out to be a Boxboro gag, with someone showing up in a Godzilla suit and answering silly questions from the audience. A real waste of time if you were hoping for a real film panel--which we were. 4.2 Whither Boskone? We skipped the "L5 Presents the Mars Underground" to pack and check out, because we all wanted to go to the "Look Ahead to Boskone '88." Some back- tracking is necessary at this point. NESFA has been saying for several years now that Boskone is getting too large--this year's attendance was estimated at 4000. As a perspective, Boskone VI in 1969 (our first) was about 260 people and Noreascon I in 1971 was only 2100. Next year when the Hynes Auditorium re-opens, the Sheraton will close the temporary exhibit space that it "borrowed" from the parking garage area. The bottom line is that the current size is too large for the new Sheraton without the Hynes and too small to make renting the Hynes a fiscal possibility. Also, NESFA does not WANT a larger convention--they want a smaller one. So starting with this year's to some extent, and continuing for the next few years, NESFA will be down-scaling Boskone by emphasizing literature, art, and fannish activities (like filking) and de-emphasizing media. Unfortunately, all this got tangled up in the other problem--rowdies causing problems with the hotel. Friday night there were three false fire alarms (I slept through all of them) and the Con committee was ready to cancel next year's Boskone on the spot. By Saturday night things had gotten better--the people thought to be responsible for the Friday nights alarms were not members, but friends of a con member, and the hotel could see that most con members were being as helpful as possible in preventing this sort of problem in the future. Anyway, the meeting had two major "bones of contention": should NESFA de- emphasize media and what could NESFA do to keep the rowdies out? One of the people from NESFA made the mistake of saying that in order to get "more of the sort of people we want" at Boskones, they would be de-emphasizing media. After a lot of heated discussion, I think the conclusion we all came to was that the de-emphasizing of media was being done to focus the convention and had nothing to do with the type of people who liked media. A smaller, less advertised convention would, by its very nature, attract fewer hangers-on than a large one. In spite of the (in my opinion) reasonableness of all this, there were those who felt that NESFA had some sort of obligation to offer big media presentations because, after all, there were people who liked this sort of thing and they wanted to come to Boskone and so Boskone should offer it. (I suspect you can guess my opinion of this from the previous sentence.) The bottom line is that NESFA won't--there will be no video room (though they may go back to closed-circuit video as a means of keeping people in their rooms rather than wandering the halls looking for entertainment), there will be no cinematic blockbusters or major media presentations, and in general people who attend only for media will have to find another convention to go to for that. The other, somewhat surprising, suggestion to be put forth was the drastic scaling down of parties. It used to be that parties were occasions for people to get together and talk; now they are, in many cases, a giant drinking bash. Many of the hangers-on show up because of all the free booze available. The suggestions in this area ranged from no seeding of parties (to keep the size down), to spot-checking parties to make sure no under-age people were being served alcohol, to banning alcohol altogether from open parties (those advertised by the Con committee). It was agreed that there was no way to ban liquor altogether but that it would certainly make a difference if only private parties were serving it. Stay tuned till next year for the results of all this. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 87 09:34 PST From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: American address for Conspiracy membership I have lost the form with the address (and price level info) for the American "office" of Conspiracy, which I plan to attend. Can any of you give me the address, with or without the current pricing structure? I was a presupporting member. Marina Fournier Arpa: Bell/work: 818/351-2351 x1411 Bell/home: 714/621-3581 (w/answerdroid) ------------------------------ Date: 26 Feb 87 15:22:00 GMT From: phm@stl.stc.co.uk (Peter Mabey) Subject: Re: American address for Conspiracy membership Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM writes: >I have lost the form with the address (and price level info) for >the American "office" of Conspiracy, which I plan to attend. Can >any of you give me the address, with or without the current pricing >structure? I was a presupporting member. From Conspiracy 87 PR2: U.S. Agents - West : Bryan Barrett P.O. Box 6202 Hayward CA 94540 East : Bill and Mary Burns 23 Kensington Court Hempstead NY 11550 U.K. address is : P.O. Box 43 Cambridge CB1 3JJ, U.K. Sorry I don't know any phone numbers or email addresses. The PR also lists agents for Australia, Finland, France, Netherlands, New Zealand, Poland, Portugal, West Germany & Yugoslavia - I won't post addresses unless asked. Regards, Peter Mabey phm@stl mcvax!ukc!stl!phm +44-279-29531 x3596 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Mar 87 0831-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #74 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 74 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley (4 msgs) & King (7 msgs) & Author Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Feb 87 21:49:19 GMT From: wjvax!miker@rutgers.edu (Mike Ryan) Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!?) zarifes@bnrmtv.UUCP (Kenneth Zarifes) writes: >> Lythande is actually female. However, her vow to the Blue Star >> is such that if anyone ever finds out she is female, she dies, so >> she masquerades as a > >Does Lythande use magic to cast an illusion of being male? Or does >she just have masculine features? Or both? Lythande is an Adept of the Blue Star, kind of weak magicians. Their power is linked to the fact that they must all protect a secret. Lythande's secret is that 'he' is a she. I forget which fine volume this comes out in, but it's one of the early, read 'good', ones. I don't think she dies if someone pegs her as a sheila, she just loses her powers and then won't be able to fight the powers of darkness at the end of time with her fellow Adepts , who are mostly male. Lythande is very! protective of her secret, disguising it with masculine features, rough behavior, and , I believe, magic. As in the case of a few female Naval officers I've known, she is a more manly 'he' than most of the men around. michael j ryan {ucbvax!decwrl!qubix,mordor!turtlevax,ihnp4!pesnta}!wjvax!miker ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 87 23:59:36 GMT From: reed!mirth@rutgers.edu (The Reedmage) Subject: (spoiler) Re: Lythande's vow First off, I completely agree with the opinion that the _Lythande_ cover was a mistake. She most definitely has an androgynous/male-ish face; the inhabitants of Sanctuary consider her a "beardless youth" but dangerous enough to be worth avoiding. She got her powers by learning enough from the adepts of the Blue Star while disguised as a man that they could not deny her adept status even once they discovered the truth. But to get back at her for the deception, they saddled her with 2 vows instead of one (accuracy of this part may suffer due to my overloaded memory): her major vow is to keep her gender secret -- the penalty for its discovery is much like discovery of a magician's true name in other magic systems; namely, the one who speaks the secret to her gains her power (subtle difference from power *over* her, here, since that is a corollary result but not primary). She also cannot eat with a man, even if she doesn't know a man is present (so she doesn't eat with anyone for fear of having a man in drag observe her). She's tall (approx 6'?) and skinny, with loose clothing and a severe expression. Was there anyone familiar with the character who was not at least slightly miffed at the cover to _Lythande_? ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 87 13:18:16 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!) zarifes@bnrmtv.UUCP (Kenneth Zarifes) writes: >Does Lythande use magic to cast an illusion of being male? Or does >she just have masculine features? Or both? Since Lythande has kept her secret from people with whom she learned magic I would tend to think that she just has masculine features. Presumably if she used magic to keep her secret other magicians would be able to discover the nature of the magic she had cast on herself and hence deduce her secret. Piers Cawley ------------------------------ Date: 26 Feb 87 20:05:44 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: (spoiler) Re: Lythande's vow I believe the bit about not eating when (other) men are present is generic to all blue star adepts, and not specific to Lythande. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Ashton-Tate 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Feb 87 22:28:53 GMT From: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) Subject: Stephen King Continuity -- THE DEAD ZONE and IT Excuse me if this has been brought up before, but I noticed, when reading Stephen King's gigantic novel IT, that there seems to be a cross-reference to events in another of King's books (a much better one, I think), THE DEAD ZONE. When the Losers are gathered together in Derry, Maine, and are discussing their amazement that the local child-killings in Derry are not being carried by the major networks, a reference is made to the killings in Castle Rock, Maine, by a "crazy cop". Castle Rock is the place where Johnny Smith, the tragic prophet of THE DEAD ZONE, uncovers that a mass murderer of children is the deputy of the Castle Rock Sherriff. Does King do this often? Has he ever mentioned that all some of his novels occur in the same arena? Jeff Meyer INTERNET: moriarty@fluke.COM Manual UUCP: {uw-beaver,sun,allegra,sb6,lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 87 20:02:00 GMT From: 6100192@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Sundeep Amrute) Subject: Re: Stephen King Continuity -- THE DEAD ZONE and IT moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) writes: >Excuse me if this has been brought up before, but I noticed, when >reading Stephen King's gigantic novel IT, that there seems to be a >cross-reference to events in another of King's books (a much better >one, I think), THE DEAD ZONE. > >Does King do this often? Has he ever mentioned that all some of >his novels occur in the same arena? Yes, King does this fairly often. His short story, "The Body", takes place in Castle Rock, and makes a passing reference to CUJO A more interesting cross reference occurs in later on in IT, during the flashback to the fire at the Black Spot. King includes a young Dick Hallorann , whose mysterious "intuition" allows him to escape from the blazing building. Hallorann had first appeared as a psychic hotel chef in THE SHINING. BITNET: 6100192@PUCC UUCP: ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET.6100192 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 87 19:55:02 GMT From: reed!ellen@rutgers.edu (Ellen Eades) Subject: Re: Stephen King Continuity -- THE DEAD ZONE and IT moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) writes: >Excuse me if this has been brought up before, but I noticed, when >reading Stephen King's gigantic novel IT, that there seems to be a >cross-reference to events in another of King's books (a much better >one, I think), THE DEAD ZONE. Does King do this often? Has he >ever mentioned that all some of his novels occur in the same arena? Yes, it happens a lot in King books. Last I recall, the story behind CUJO (which I may not have gotten accurately, as I read it standing up in a Waldenbooks) has the rabid dog actually sort of possessed by the "crazy cop," Frank Dodd, from DEAD ZONE, and as far as I could tell King seemed to be leading up in a series of books to a story about some great overarching evil force in the region. I suspect that 'SALEM'S LOT would've been renamed Castle Rock if he'd gotten the idea for continuity earlier on in his career. I haven't had a chance to read IT yet, though I am planning a massive horror gorge-out (no, not the Cornell kind) when it comes out in paperback. I think Castle Rock also features in some of his short stories, either from SKELETON CREW or DIFFERENT SEASONS, though I don't have my books with me to check (ah, the luxury of an in-house Macintosh escapes me :-) Like comic continuity, King's leaves a lot to be desired, but it's fun to occasionally pick up on. Ellen M. Eades ...!tektronix!reed!ellen verdix!ogcvax!reed!ellen ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 87 09:16:11 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Stephen King Continuity -- THE DEAD ZONE and IT From: fluke!moriarty (Jeff Meyer) > Excuse me if this has been brought up before, but I noticed, when > reading Stephen King's gigantic novel IT, that there seems to be a > cross-reference to events in another of King's books (a much > better one, I think), THE DEAD ZONE. When the Losers are gathered > together in Derry, Maine, and are discussing their amazement that > the local child-killings in Derry are not being carried by the > major networks, a reference is made to the killings in Castle > Rock, Maine, by a "crazy cop". Castle Rock is the place where > Johnny Smith, the tragic prophet of THE DEAD ZONE, uncovers that a > mass murderer of children is the deputy of the Castle Rock > Sherriff. > > Does King do this often? Has he ever mentioned that all some of > his novels occur in the same arena? Yes, King does this often. No, he's never explicitly said that all or some of his novels take place in the same "universe", but it's implicit in the works themselves. All of the cross-references are too numerous to list, but there is the occasional reference to such fictional places as Castle Rock, (Jeru)Salem's Lot, and Chamberlain (the setting of CARRIE), all in the same general region of Maine (basicly, along Interstate 95 from around Lewiston up to Bangor). In fact, Castle Rock is also the setting for both CUJO and "The Body" (upon which the film STAND BY ME was based), and Sheriff Bannerman is a minor character in both of those as well as THE DEAD ZONE. Probably the most obscure cross-reference is that of Stovington Preparatory Academy. It's the fictional school to which Chuck Chatsworth --- whom Johnny Smith tutors in THE DEAD ZONE --- goes, and from which Jack Torrance in THE SHINING is fired as a teacher before the opening of that book. Stovington, Vermont (where the school is located) is also the site for the government's secondary plague research center in THE STAND. But it's obvious that despite these cross-references, some books cannot "co-exist" in the same universe as others. THE DEAD ZONE, for instance, refers to CARRIE as a novel. And the events in THE STAND preclude any of the other stories set after 1985 (or 1980, if you go by the hardcover) from happening, since the entire world is just about wiped out by a plague. THE TALISMAN and THE EYES OF THE DRAGON are related to each other, but there's nothing that I can recall that connects them with any of the other books, unless you are wont to believe that the character Flagg in EYES is the same as Randall Flagg from THE STAND. THE DARK TOWER: THE GUNSLINGER also does not seem to be connected to anything else, though I wouldn't be surprised if we find out in the forthcoming (in April) sequel, THE DRAWING OF THE THREE, that the setting for this series is also the Territories. CHRISTINE is the only one of the "Earth-bound" novels that has no cross-references to the others. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 87 19:28:43 GMT From: robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen) Subject: Re: Stephen King Continuity -- THE DEAD ZONE and IT boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: >Yes, King does this often. No, he's never explicitly said that all >or some of his novels take place in the same "universe", but it's >implicit in the works themselves. All of the cross-references are >too numerous to list, but there is the occasional reference to such >fictional places as Castle Rock, (Jeru)Salem's Lot, and Chamberlain >(the setting of CARRIE), all in the same general region of Maine >(basicly, along Interstate 95 from around Lewiston up to Bangor). >In fact, Castle Rock is also the setting for both CUJO and "The >Body" (upon which the film STAND BY ME was based), and Sheriff >Bannerman is a minor character in both of those as well as THE DEAD >ZONE. I just thought it would be interesting to point out that Steven King is doing with Maine what H.P. Lovecraft did with Massachusetts. Does anyone feel that Kings' writing is of the same caliber as Lovecrafts' (e.g. low, but nonetheless entrancing)? Robert Allen, robert@spam.istc.sri.com ------------------------------ Date: 26 Feb 87 21:47:45 GMT From: jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini) Subject: Re: Stephen King Continuity -- THE DEAD ZONE and IT ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) writes: > moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) writes: >>Excuse me if this has been brought up before, but I noticed, when >>reading Stephen King's gigantic novel IT, that there seems to be a >>cross-reference to events in another of King's books (a much >>better one, I think), THE DEAD ZONE. Does King do this often? >>Has he ever mentioned that all some of his novels occur in the >>same arena? > > Yes, it happens a lot in King books. Now for my 2 cents... In different seasons, 'The Breathing Method' is a tale which is set in a club in New York City (I think it is NY, but it is a club). The same club also appears in one of the short stories in Skeleton Crew, the one about a man who kill whomever he shakes hands with. In Night Shift, there is a short story about Jerusalems Lot. Nuff said on that one. In Different Seasons "The Body", there is a reference to Night Shift. Something about a collection of nightmares published into a book of stories... Castle Rock does creep up quite a bit. Did anyone notice in Cats Eye where Cindy Clark was reading "Pet Semetary"? Lastly, I would like to read King's "The Dark Tower". Does anyone know where I can get a copy of this? Ihave read everything else by him but I cannot seem to find this on. James J. Alpigini Raytheon SSD, W. Main Rd. Portsmouth, RI 02871-1087 {cbosgd,gatech,ihnp4,linus,mirror,uiucdcs}!rayssd!jja ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 87 17:18:58 GMT From: robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen) Subject: Re: Stephen King Continuity -- THE DEAD ZONE and IT jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini) writes: >Lastly, I would like to read King's "The Dark Tower". Does anyone >know where I can get a copy of this? Ihave read everything else by >him but I cannot seem to find this on. If Dark Tower is the book I'm thinking of, the first of the so-called "Gunfighter Trilogy", then you can look forward to paying upwards of $120.00 for a **second** edition! I considered this as a collectors item, but I couldn't see paying that much for a second edition. To find one in your area I'd suggest going to a good book store (not a chain store), and asking. I don't know the publisher but I believe that only 5,000 or so of each printing were made. If you are in the San Francisco Bay Area try getting in contact with Future Fantasy in Palo Alto. Good Luck, Robert Allen, robert@spam.istc.sri.com ------------------------------ Date: 15 Feb 87 18:36:15 GMT From: rjf@ukc.ac.uk (R.J.Faichney) Subject: Dr Modesto query If anyone knows the author's name of a book titled 'Dr Modesto' or something *very* similar, I'd be really keen to find out. I read this book years ago and it has stuck in my mind ever since. It's about the individual and his/her relationship with society, which sounds heavy, but it's very funny. If you have any info about this book and/or it's author, please email me and I'll post a summary. Robin Faichney UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!rjf JANET: rjf@ukc.ac.uk ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Mar 87 0845-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #75 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 75 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Terminology (5 msgs) & Conventions (3 msgs) & An Obituary & Influences on SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Feb 87 20:21:37 GMT From: vnend@ukecc.uky.edu (D. V. W. James) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus Subject: 'SCI-FI') krs@amdahl.UUCP (Kris Stephens) writes: >How about "Lord of the Rings" as Red and "Starship Troopers" as >Blue? There is practically no science and technology in "Lord of >the Rings" and it abounds with magic and other arcana. There is >speculation on the future of humanity, our technology and politics, >and alien races which *might* actually exist, in "Starship >Troopers", but no magic or occult/arcane components. I'll go along with LotR for fantasy (without syaing that it is the absolute best), but I don't think that ST is a good example of extreme SF. Or at least, I can think of one better. You can say that ST has some 'soft' traits, most especially an FTL drive. There is one story that I can think of that is good SF that avoids this potentially fantastic trait: Keyes' "Flowers for Algernon". If you want a definitive, 'safe' SF story, my vote is for this one. cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend vnend@engr.uky.edu vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 87 22:39:37 GMT From: endot!hinch@rutgers.edu (hold horns high) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction I was particularily pleased when, in the course of some promised catch-up reading, I came across in Delaney's _Triton_, Appendix A, a quite reasonable, readable essay on the definition of science fiction -- about a dozen pages in all. He comments especially on the role of *science* in enlarging the rhetorical space of what is possible rather than impossible. Frederick Hinchliffe 2nd ENDOT, Inc. 11001 Cedar Ave Cleveland, OH 44106 Usenet: decvax!cwruecmp!endot!hinch 216.229.8900 ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 87 21:56:33 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction eppstein@tom.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) writes: >dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: >> Other fantasies don't bother with laws or allow virtually >> anything (cf "Her Majesty's Wizard" (author's name forgotten) >> where the magician may do anything if he can compose a poem to >> describe it). > >It's by Stasheff. I agree with your general point, but you've >picked a bad example; magic in HMW does obey certain specific laws >following from medieval religious beliefs; divine right of kings is >one such. What happens when a wizard composes a poem about a king who has no divine rights? I like fantasies which have certain laws which all magic must obey. Then it's fun to come up with contradictions and paradoxes. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 87 00:56:42 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction elron@ihlpm.ATT.COM (Gary F. York) writes: >All of this suggests that a three dimensional classification system >might be more appropriate: > >Emphasis on charaters vs. emphasis on technology (the CT continum) >and "everyday" reality vs. strange reality (the ES continum). This is a really good idea. I never meant to argue that there is any kind of clear difference between "science fiction" and "fantasy", but there is some kind of scale, I think people will agree... You're right, Gary, two dimensions are too few to begin to describe the variations. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 87 05:37:11 GMT From: mcgill-vision!mouse@rutgers.edu (der Mouse) Subject: Pern (dragons) and Re: fantasy and science fiction dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: > daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >> I'm not too certain where to put the Dragonrider books, for >> instance. [...] Why? Critters the size and mass of dragons >> can't fly under earth conditions. Sure they can. Read The Flight of Dragons, by Peter Dickson (or was it Dickenson? Jayembee?), illus. Wayne Anderson. Sorry, don't have a publisher or ISBN, but I'm pretty sure one of those last names I gave is correct. Creatures as large as dragons can fly lighter-than-air (Dickenson justifies this very convincingly); creatures as small as fire-lizards can fly aerodynamically (the way Earth birds of that size do). >> Add in conservation of momentum and conservation of energy for >> teleportation. Not to mention time travel - I'm sure most sf-lovers readers remember the recent furor over time travel (and how inconclusive it was). USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse ARPAnet: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 87 05:24:49 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report ecl@mtgzy.UUCP writes: >4.2 Whither Boskone? >So starting with this year's to some extent, and continuing for the >next few years, NESFA will be down-scaling Boskone by emphasizing >literature, art, and fannish activities (like filking) and >de-emphasizing media. Unfortunately, all this got tangled up in >the other problem--rowdies causing problems with the hotel. Friday >night there were three false fire alarms (I slept through all of >them) and the Con committee was ready to cancel next year's Boskone >on the spot. By Saturday night things had gotten better--the >people thought to be responsible for the Friday nights alarms were >not members, but friends of a con member, and the hotel could see >that most con members were being as helpful as possible in >preventing this sort of problem in the future. > >Anyway, the meeting had two major "bones of contention": should >NESFA de- emphasize media and what could NESFA do to keep the >rowdies out? One of the people from NESFA made the mistake of >saying that in order to get "more of the sort of people we want" at >Boskones, they would be de-emphasizing media. After a lot of >heated discussion, I think the conclusion we all came to was that >the de-emphasizing of media was being done to focus the convention >and had nothing to do with the type of people who liked media. A >smaller, less advertised convention would, by its very nature, >attract fewer hangers-on than a large one. In spite of the (in my >opinion) reasonableness of all this, there were those who felt that >NESFA had some sort of obligation to offer big media presentations >because, after all, there were people who liked this sort of thing >and they wanted to come to Boskone and so Boskone should offer it. I was there too, and on the other side of this discussion, so let me make the point I did there. There is a place (an important one) for special interest conventions in the sf convention pantheon. Indeed I have chaired Star Trek as well as "straight" sf conventions in the past. I think Readercon is a good idea, so are filk cons, gaming cons, etc... Still, there are a group of regionals with a long history, Boskone among them, which I think do have an obligation to serve the total spread of the science fiction spectrum because of their major regional status. This question did not come up when the Regency people, or the Burroughs folks, or any of the "traditional" fringe fandoms joined sf cons, because the numbers were still strongly in favor of the old mainline. But the numbers of people who take their sf through film and tv (and attend cons) has reached or exceeded the readers (of which I am one as well) and they feel threatened (not physically, of course, but of losing their corner of the world). Although I read sf for many years, I came into con fandom through Star Trek. Unfortunately, I have stopped attending Trek and media cons because the people who are now running them are either professionals not interested in fannish traditions, or people who know cons only through the pro presentations. When I ran the 10th Anniversary August Party in 1985, more than one attendee had the reaction"The program book is free, I can get in the con suite, you mean this ice cream is free?" You get the idea... So this is my point. The major regionals do have an obligation to cover the full spectrum of sf. This does not mean they can exceed their facilities or have to put up with destruction of hotel property. But limiting the scope of programming will not effect those people who don't come for the programming anyway. So what is the solution? There is no one solution. Convention staffers (and committee members) roving the halls all night helped stop vandalism at August Party. Limiting membership, either through limiting publicity or a formal limit or both may have to be implemented. Certainly we, as a fandom, are creative enough to come up with some ideas! NESFA can do as they please (isn't freedom wonderful), I thank them for the panel that allowed us to discuss this at the con. Let's keep that kind of communication open. Now, let's keep the discussion on the net of this subject CIVIL folks. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 87 22:03:33 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Responsibilities of Cons (was Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report) rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (Rich Kolker) writes: >ecl@mtgzy.UUCP writes: >>[ ... ] there were those who felt that NESFA had some sort of >>obligation to offer big media presentations because, after all, >>there were people who liked this sort of thing and they wanted to >>come to Boskone and so Boskone should offer it. Evelyn disagreed with this idea; Rich responded in part: >Still, there are a group of regionals with a long history, Boskone >among them, which I think do have an obligation to serve the total >spread of the science fiction spectrum because of their major >regional status. Well, I wasn't at this Boskone, but I have been a faithful attendee since Bosklone, and I'd like to put my two cents in. Let me say about myself that I am a reader, always was; I've somewhat involved in fandom but have never (yet) run a con. I always went to Boskone but until three years ago had never gone to a panel. I hit the huckster's, the artshow, the movies, the parties, the fen. (Yes, I was a reader; I just didn't go to the panels.) But although it may sound incongruous, I disagree with what Rich is saying. I don't think that Boskone, or any well-established regional con, has an obligation to the fen of the region, other than those fen involved in putting on Boskone. If partyfen want a partycon, they can put one on. If serfen want a sercon, they can put one on, and do. If Trekfen, etc. The question really is who NESFA wants to attract and serve. And it's up to them. I see fan-run conventions as their gatherings to which they are inviting me. Sure, I pay admission, but that's the same as pot-luck dinners. They are nice enough to do the work of running a con and inviting me to their gathering, and I do my part by providing some money. Or volunteering. Or helping run the next one. But it's something they are doing for themselves, and inviting us because they think it's more fun when there are lots of new people to meet and talk and exchange ideas with. They are a club, not a public service organization. If NESFA, or any sf club, feels that it has an obligation to local fen not involved with the club (other than inasmuch as all fen are joined together in this mad community), that's fine, but it is the club's decision. If NESFA, or any club, decides that it is no longer fun to have X-fen (fill in the blank) at their gatherings, that's their prerogative. If the X-fen are left out in the cold with nowhere to go for their X-activities, that is a sign that they should take some responsibilty for themselves. (X-Con 1, I can see it now...) Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 87 02:07:23 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (Rick Kolker) writes: > Still, there are a group of regionals with a long history, Boskone > among them, which I think do have an obligation to serve the total > spread of the science fiction spectrum because of their major > regional status. As someone who has attended 16 of the last 19 Boskones (starting with Boskone VI in 1969, which had 260 attendees!), I will just point out that this long history did not include media to any great extent for a large part of that time. It was only in the late 1970s that media became such a major part of Boskone. I remember the media highlight of an early Boskone being Bela Lugosi in WHITE ZOMBIE! > This question did not come up when the Regency people, or the > Burroughs folks, or any of the "traditional" fringe fandoms joined > sf cons, because the numbers were still strongly in favor of the > old mainline. Also, the Regency people and the Burroughs people usually had only *one* event each at a convention (the Regency tea and the Burroughs Dum-Dum). Boskone will still show at least one film--but I suspect the media fen want more than that. I love media SF--anyone who reads rec.arts.movies knows that Mark and I are major media fans. We run a media APA and a private media convention (both are full, so no requests please). But I still applaud NESFA's attempt to return Boskone to its origins. I *know* what it used to be like--and I hope it can go back to that. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 22 Feb 87 22:16:18 GMT From: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) Subject: Richard Sapir, co-creator of THE DESTROYER, is dead Just a note -- Richard Sapir, who co-wrote the DESTROYER series with Warren Murphy, died several weeks ago. Sapir's caustic wit and black sense of humor (and view of world events) elevated what could have been another boring blood-and-guts series into a satire of heroes, villains, America, and just about anything you could name. He will be missed. Jeff Meyer INTERNET: moriarty@fluke.COM Manual UUCP: {uw-beaver,sun,allegra,sb6,lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 87 18:40 EST From: WELTY RICHARD P Subject: Influences List: SF <-> non-SF The other day, I was watching one of my favorite old movies (The Enemy Below), and it occured to me that there are quite a few cases where non-SF sources had been used in producing some good (and bad) SF. These three occured to me right off: The Enemy Below (Great WWII flick) Fine early Star Trek episode whose name escapes me. First episode with Romulans and cloaking device, if I remember correctly. High Noon (Great western -- only Gary Cooper film I ever liked) Outland (spelling)? Sean Connery as sheriff in outer space. The Tempest (If you don't know this one, you're hurting) Forbidden Planet The degree to which plot elements were borrowed varies from one example to the other, but in all cases the influence is quite clear. Can anyone else come up with any (or, has this list been done already)? I am interested in influnces that go either way, in both written and visual media. Mail to me, and if the results are interesting, I'll post. Richard Welty welty@ge-crd.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 26 Feb 87 18:09:43 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Influences List: SF <-> non-SF WELTY@ge-crd.arpa writes: >Can anyone else come up with any (or, has this list been done >already)? How about: Moby Dick, by Melville > Nova, by Delaney Various Chinese sources > Cordwainer Smith's stories Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 11 Mar 87 0904-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #76 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Mar 87 0904-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #76 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 76 Today's Topics: Books - MacCaffrey (2 msgs) & Zelazny (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Feb 87 02:42:18 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: >You didn't even mention other unscientific aspects of Pern. The >celestial mechanics (Pern & Red Star) were absolutely ridiculous. I don't know enough about celestial mechanics to be certain... but I would not consider it impossible for this to occur. The Red Star never did show a disk, after all; therefore, it was farther away from Pern than Luna is from Earth, but probably not as far as Mars is... >Also, how did the threads get from the Red Star (really a planet) >to Pern? I can only conclude that McCaffrey did not really care >that the laws of physics were violated in her book. This is not to >say that ``ARRHENIUS? EUREKA! MYCORRHIZA. . .'' I suggest you re-read your high school biology textbook. McCaffrey describes just about the only situation where the Arrhenius spore phenomenon can occur. (There are *really* impossible examples in other books: WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE has club moss doing an Arrhenius stunt from Earth to Bronson Beta. Millions of years ago, no less.) Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 87 07:41:11 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB) Subject: Pern improbabilities (was Re: fantasy and science fiction) allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque): > >>You didn't even mention other unscientific aspects of Pern. The >>celestial mechanics (Pern & Red Star) were absolutely ridiculous. >I don't know enough about celestial mechanics to be certain... but >I would not consider it impossible for this to occur. The Red Star >never did show a disk, after all; therefore, it was farther away >from Pern than Luna is from Earth, but probably not as far as Mars >is... The Red Star was in what is know as a chaotic orbit. A chaotic orbit is one which crosses or comes near to crossing the orbit of the major planets. In our solar system only asteriods and comets are in these kinds of orbits. Bodies in chaotic orbits eventually either impact one of the major planets or are ejected from the solar system. In the Pern system, the Red Star was captured from outside the system and is in a chaotic orbit. However the Red Star is not a asteroid; it's a major planet at least the size of Mars. Because it's so big, there should be a sizable effect on the orbit of any planet which it comes near, such as Pern. This remember that the Red Star comes close enough for thread to cross for 50 years at time. After even one of these passes, I would expect Pern to be in a drastically different orbit, causing major changes in the climate. Actually, thing that is most ridiculous obout the orbital mechanics is that the Red Star and Pern stay in more or less the same position relative to each other for 50 years. As you say, the Red Star was further away from Pern than is the moon from us, which means that the different orbital velocities would quickly cause them to move apart. Even after a few months they would be far away from each other. >>Also, how did the threads get from the Red Star (really a planet) >>to Pern? I can only conclude that McCaffrey did not really care >>that the laws of physics were violated in her book. >``ARRHENIUS? EUREKA! MYCORRHIZA. . .'' > >I suggest you re-read your high school biology textbook. McCaffrey >describes just about the only situation where the Arrhenius spore >phenomenon can occur. (There are *really* impossible examples in >other books: WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE has club moss doing an Arrhenius >stunt from Earth to Bronson Beta. Millions of years ago, no less.) Maybe you'd better look up Arrhenius' work instead. The idea of Panspermia was about MICROscopic spores being pushed around by light pressure. The Thread (and thus the spores which it comes from) was most decidedly MACROscopic. I suppose the spores could have sprouted light sails (sounds unlikely) but the real question is: How did the spores escape the atmosphere of the Red Star in the first place? Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 87 18:17:56 GMT From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) Subject: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) writes: >My only remaining question is to Laura. What book is it that you >hand out? I give "Lord of Light" away every chance I get. And here >I thought I was the only one. I give out lots of Zelazny. It is interesting in that I have asked the question ``what do you like more -- Creatures of Light and Darkness or Lord of Light'' more than a thousand times -- and with only 4 exceptions, the book that people prefer is the one they read first. I read *Creatures* first, so I give that out more often. I have given away a large number of entire Amber collections. And others. Damnation Alley goes over very well in certain high schools -- and others prefer Isle of the Dead. Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 21:05:21 GMT From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser) Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes: >I give out lots of Zelazny. It is interesting in that I have asked >the question ``what do you like more -- Creatures of Light and >Darkness or Lord of Light'' more than a thousand times -- and with >only 4 exceptions, the book that people prefer is the one they read >first. I read *Creatures* first, so I give that out more often. I >have given away a large number of entire Amber collections. And >others. Damnation Alley goes over very well in certain high >schools -- and others prefer Isle of the Dead. Yep, Zelazny in any form is usually good stuff. I was a bit disappointed by Madwand, but you can't win 'em all. I first read Creatures and Lord within a week of each other, and like them equally. My favorite at any one moment really depends on my mood at the time. "Jack Of Shadows" is very good. I like "Roadmarks", too. The Amber books got off to a good start, but have gotten rather complex and tangled. Seems like everybody is getting more and more powerful. While this could be considered character growth, it sure was easier to understand when only Dworkin could draw a trump... ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 87 05:15:50 GMT From: jhunix!ecf_ety@rutgers.edu (Berserker Bob) Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness In _Lords of Light_, the setting is a colony of Earthmen who have extended their lifespan through "soul transferance [sp?]" into a clone type body of their choosing. Through this exchange they gain certain "divine" abilities. However, in _Creatures of Light and Darkness_ the characters ARE gods. Zelazny does well in both books but _Lords of Light_ is by far the better. It has a better storyline, is easier to read, and is more enjoyable to the newcomer. Also, this book is more relevent to everyday life (the situations and events relate more to occurrences in everyday life). You can see a touch of the main character in each of us. It is both humorous and dramatic, but in a good, honest sci-fi way (No...I am not going to participate in the SF vs. sci-fi debate...just accept it for what I mean...I don't care what each term implies...they are the same to me). These views and opinions are, of course, very biased, seeing as I liked the Hindu myths better than I like the Egyptian myths. The Hindus love the art of keeping the mind elevated through outside influences (no, not drugs! ;-)) whereas, the Egyptian gods (except Isis) are stringent masochists. But, of course, this again is my own opinion. Any responses are welcome. Cleave Drummond seismo!jhunix!ins_atty ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 87 03:19:53 GMT From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser) Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness ecf_ety@jhunix.UUCP (Cleave Drummond) writes: >In _Lords of Light_, the setting is a colony of Earthmen who have >extended their lifespan through "soul transferance [sp?]" into a >clone type body of their choosing. Through this exchange they gain >certain "divine" abilities. The abilities develop with training. You start off with mechanical assistance, really think yourself into the part, and after awhile don't need the gadgets anymore. The powers are not the result of a body transfer. In fact, after a transfer, it takes awhile for them to come back to full force. >However, in _Creatures of Light and Darkness_ the characters ARE >gods. Wrong again. There are numerous places where the technological underpinnings of godhood are clearly shown. >Zelazny does well in both books but _Lords of Light_ is by far the >better. Everybody is entitled to an opinion. I love BOTH books. >Also, this book is more relevent to everyday life (the situations >and events relate more to occurrences in everyday life). OK, when was the last time that, in punishment for losing a war against the gods, your soul was removed from your body and imprisoned in the radiation belt around the planet? Or did you mean your strange mental abilities that allow you to control creatures of energy. Or perhaps you fought with the gods against the legions of the undead? How about that time that you went to buy a new body and they tried to stick you with a defective one? Hell, I do this stuff every day! >You can see a touch of the main character in each of us. It is >both humorous and dramatic, but in a good, honest sci-fi way. I agree, although Sam is a bit too cynical to fit me well. >These views and opinions are, of course, very biased, seeing as I >liked the Hindu myths better than I like the Egyptian myths. The >Hindus love the art of keeping the mind elevated through outside >influences (no, not drugs! ;-)) whereas, the Egyptian gods (except >Isis) are stringent masochists. Knowing little or nothing about the Hindu and Egyptian myths, I bow to your knowledge. BTW, the title is Lord of Light. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 00:01:36 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes: >I give out lots of Zelazny. It is interesting in that I have asked >the question ``what do you like more -- Creatures of Light and >Darkness or Lord of Light'' more than a thousand times -- and with >only 4 exceptions, the book that people prefer is the one they read >first. I repeated this comment to a friend of mine at one point. His comment was, approximately, "I read Creatures of Light and Darkness first, and thought it was better. But when I reread them, I could see that Lord of Light was actually the better book." I would suggest to Laura that she try rereading both books critically, and see if she still thinks Creatures of Light and Darkness is the better book. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Ashton-Tate 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 87 00:36:19 GMT From: alliant!steckel@rutgers.edu (Geoff Steckel) Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness On leafing through CoLaD again, I was brought up short by quotes and pastiches Zelazny uses. Some I could identify per se (Sir Patrick Spens) and some just gave me the 'I've read this before' feeling. This is not to say he does it badly - far from it. However, Lord of Light _seems_ to be more original material. This could be because the Hindu mythology I've seen has been much more thoroughly organized into 'stories' around which RZ could hang his text, as opposed to the Egyptian themes which are much sparser. Look at the chapter beginnings for quotes from all over English (& American) & I think some other language material. On the subject of pastiches, the 'Traveller in Black' series of stories (short stories anthologized & recently reissued) are excellent outgrowths of the Dunsanian stories. Read them if you like Zelazny; it has a different flavor though. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 87 17:35:54 GMT From: ccastkv@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti) Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness dennisg@fritz.UUCP (Dennis Griesser) writes: >ecf_ety@jhunix.UUCP (Cleave Drummond) writes: >> In _Lord of Light_, the setting is a colony of Earthmen >>who have extended their lifespan through "soul transferance [sp?]" >>into a clone type body of their choosing. Through this exchange >>they gain No, the crew of the Star of India were mutants with various abilities. This is why they had powers but the passengers didn't and couldn't. Remember that when Brahma died and Kali took his place she didn't pick up his powers, whatever they were. The reason they used mechanical aids was twofold. First, many of their talents were weak and the use of those powers would drain them. For example, it would take Agni several minutes of concentration to start a fire and then leave him with a splitting headache where, using his wand, he could score the surfaces of both moons in a matter of seconds with no more effort than waving at them. Secondly, when they took over a new body it did not have their mutation. As time passed their "mental patterns" caused the body to resemble their original body more and more, until they had their talent back. Remember what Yama said about how, if they could discover the secret of true immortality, their current bodies would eventually look just like their original ones? Keith Vaglienti Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 87 22:13:52 GMT From: rph@nancy (Richard Hughey) Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness ccastkv@gitpyr.UUCP (Keith Vaglienti) writes: >> In _Lord of Light_, the setting is a colony of Earthmen >>who have extended their lifespan through "soul transferance >>[sp?]" into a clone type body of their choosing. Through this >>exchange they gain > >No, the crew of the Star of India were mutants with various >abilities. This is why they had powers but the passengers didn't >and couldn't. Remember that when Brahma died and Kali took his >place she didn't pick up his powers, whatever they were. The reason >they used mechanical aids was twofold. First, No, the crew of the ship developed their powers by learning mass hypnosis and using mind changing drugs. Most in fact did not develop their talents until on the planet for a while. Only a few of the 'gods' had inherent talents, which were caused by mutation or the attribute enhancement drugs making permannent changes to their atman. Their technology made it possible to develop the powers of the mind, though Kalkin and Yama at least may have powers resulting from mutation, or a medically enhanced mutation, since their powers are so remarkable. Mara, though, is just a *very* good hypnotist with some help also from Yama's mechanical genius. The commoners (settlers) could develop these powers if they weren't kept checked so well by the Masters of Karma and by the lack of technology. Richard Hughey Brown University CSNET: rph%cs.brown.edu@relay.cs.net BITNET: rph@browncs (decvax, ihnp4, allegra)!brunix!rph ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Mar 87 0935-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #77 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Mar 87 0935-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #77 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 77 Today's Topics: Books - Story Request & Pig World (2 msgs) & Recommendations (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Feb 87 19:12:46 GMT From: ihnp3!gsky@rutgers.edu (glenn kapetansky) Subject: Jog my memory I remember a short story from long ago, but (as the usual plea goes :-) have no idea who wrote it or where to find it again. Here's the plot (spoiler? oh, who cares): A couple of Earthguys are in some lay-on-your-back bar on some other planet, where the inhabitants pride themselves on their technical achievements. Earthguys and alien guy enter into bet/contest that pits Earthguys against aliens in engineering contest: each provides a widget, and the other side has to deduce the function and copy it. Aliens give E.G.'s a perpetual motion machine. E.G.'s are successful, but only after inventing a space warp device to circumvent a black box they can't analyze. Turns out the black box was a BATTERY (the aliens cheated)...the story ends shortly after, with another stinger. Can anyone help? Please send replies via e-mail, as I can't always get on the net. ADVthanksANCE. glenn kapetansky ihnp3!gsky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 87 20:44:23 GMT From: 52194052@NMSUVM1.BITNET Subject: pig world I read an exciting book several years ago, and can only recall the name. Pig World. If anyone can give me the author's name I would be a happy sflover once again. Any other related info would also be helpful. Michael ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 15:42:09 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: pig world PIGWORLD was written by Charles W. Runyon. (And before anyone else gets confused, Harry Harrison wrote "THE MAN FROM P.I.G., not PIGWORLD.) Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 87 17:18:20 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... jeo@hpindda.UUCP (Eric Okholm) writes: >It's about time I got a little help from the net. Ever since I >finished Eddings' Belgariad series, and Zelazny's first two Merlin >of Amber books, I can't find a good fantasy series that will hold >my interest past the first couple of chapters. > ... I would really enjoy reading something with a little >suspense, personality, characterization, drama, and action. > >So, I would appreciate some comments about people's favorite >fantasy series - hopefully there will be a couple that I won't have >read the first chapter of. Huh. Another example for a previous discussion... I can't help but FEEL that Amber is SF, even though my logic says it's fantasy! Oops. I know you asked for fantasy, but there's a great sf series just completed that you should probably try. CJCherryh's Chanur series. The first book, THE PRIDE OF CHANUR (a great pun!), stands on its own, and the next -four?- all go together. Really good stuff, but you'll have difficulties if you want more than one human involved... CJ Cherryh also wrote a trilogy-soon-to-be-more that is sometimes classed as sf and sometimes as fantasy. The Morgaine trilogy, starting with GATE OF IVREL, will soon have a fourth book added. (For those interested, Carolyn gets a nasty gleam in her eye when we ask about what will or will not be between Morgaine and Vanye, and refuses to talk; this fourth book will be more from Morgaine's point of view than Vanye's). Each book takes place on a different world, and is concerned with the closing of the Gates between them. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 02:58:04 GMT From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... jeo@hpindda.UUCP (Eric Okholm) writes: >It's about time I got a little help from the net. Ever since I >finished Eddings' Belgariad series, and Zelazny's first two Merlin >of Amber books, I can't find a good fantasy series that will hold >my interest past the first couple of chapters. Well... I liked Julian May's Saga of Pliocene Exile. Horrible title for the series, I thought, but the books were great fun. The Many Colored Land The Golden Torc The Unborn King The Adversary There's a one way time gate to the Pliocene (~6 million years ago) that people enter. When they get there, they find a rather strange world... SLIGHT SPOILER FOLLOWS ...ruled by aliens who enslave humans and who bear close resemblances to standard fantasy type beings -- elves, goblins, whatever. But it's really well done, and everything tries to have some justification -- psionics are common, but follow strict rules, etc. Hey, I had a lot of fun with this one. Bob Myers myers@tybalt.caltech.edu seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 23:27:39 GMT From: petsd!cjh@rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... Poul Anderson wrote several novels and numerous shorter stories in two series: the Polesotechnic League series and the Flandry series. At some point, he decided that the Polesotechnic League was part of Flandry's history, and wove the two series together. They are adventure tales, if not downright "space opera." The writing is good, and the scenery is excellent. Anderson tried to invent at least one interesting species or planet per story. I find they survive re-reading well. "The Earth Book of Stormgate" is a collection of some of the stories; it has a chronology of the whole (double) series. Regards, Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 758-7288 ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 87 23:50:29 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... jeo@hpindda.UUCP (Eric Okholm) writes: >It's about time I got a little help from the net. Ever since I >finished Eddings' Belgariad series, and Zelazny's first two Merlin >of Amber books, I can't find a good fantasy series that will hold >my interest past the first couple of chapters. 'Fafhrd and The Gray Mouser', by Fritz Leiber et al: "Together, Fafhrd and the Mouser make up the greatest adventurer in Fantasy", or some such. All titles include the word "Swords" and are, by and large, collected short stories. 'The Swords of Raemllyn', by Vardeman & Proctor: In the mold of Conan/Fahfrd & the Gray Mouser. 'Bloodsong', by Asa Drake: The setting is old Scandinavia. God's are active, but not as major characters. Series in process. Kristopher Stephens Amdahl Corporation amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com 408-746-6047 ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 87 18:42:02 GMT From: dand@tekigm.TEK.COM (Dan C. Duval) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... I feel strange recommending Piers Anthony, but try "Blue Adept". THe main character has to operate in two different societies with different physical laws while trying to find out who is trying to off him, in both worlds. Not great, not earthshattering, but it kept my attention through all three books (somthing which cannot be claimed by "The Sword of Shinola"... sorry, but it was the word that came to mind.) Another is the "Swords" stories of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser by Fritz Leiber, with title such as "Swords Against Sorcery" and "Swords in the Mist". Finally, perhaps you'd like to try some Fred Saberhagen. "Empire of the East" and its (sort of) sequels which are combined in the hardbound edition called "The Complete Book of Swords" (I forget what the individual books that make up the entire series are called.) Anyway, there are some thoughts. Dan C Duval ISI Engineering Tektronix, Inc. tektronix!tekigm2!dand ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 87 17:50:28 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Elric and other series suggestions Becky Slocombe recommends the Elric "series". I would also recommend them, but calling them a series is really a bit of false advertising. The six books are really collections of short stories and novellas, held together by a fairly thin thread of chronology and events. Also they are of uneven quality. If you do decide to get the series, I would recommend the Berkley paperbacks graced with the wonderful Robert Gould covers. I most especially recommend the three Lord Valentine/Majipoor books by Robert Silverberg. One of the few really original worlds in SF-fantasy literature. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 87 18:28:45 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... jeo@hpindda.UUCP (Eric Okholm) writes: >It's about time I got a little help from the net. Ever since I >finished Eddings' Belgariad series, and Zelazny's first two Merlin >of Amber books, I can't find a good fantasy series that will hold >my interest past the first couple of chapters. OH! Micheal Moorcock's Elric books (starting with ELRIC OF MELNIBONE). This is kind-of weird and rambling, but so is all of Moorcock's stuff (now, let's see if I can guess who'll disagree...). Tanith Lee's Demon books... This series has a name, but I forget what it is. NIGHT'S MASTER, DEATH'S MASTER, etc. The most recent is DELERIUM'S MISTRESS, but my favourite is NIGHT'S MASTER. Same difficulty as with Moorcock... It's WEIRD (but not rambling). Tanith Lee is really something special once you get used to her. Another Tanith Lee book, CYRION, is a series of short stories about a swordfighter/adventurer, set into a story about someone seeking the man. This is REALLY NEATO-GWEETO! Also, does anyone else out there like the Celtic mythology books by Kenneth C. Flint? I like his style. And, back to sf, Lois McMaster-Bujold has written three books set in the same universe (at least one character shows up in more than one of the books). I recommend the third, ETHAN OF ATHOS, but don't try it if you're seriously squeamish about homosexuality (there's nothing explicit, but some readers are bothered by the idea...). Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 01:13:03 GMT From: cisunx!bu147441@rutgers.edu (Dan "Belgarion" Eikenberry) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... The Belgariad is/was my favorite . of course 8-) Other good series. One called "The Warriors" sorry I can't remember the author. My roommate had them last year. Also another good series I think it has 8 books in paperback now and the newest in hardback (okay so it is three trilogies) are the books by Katherine Kurtz. Dealing with the Deryni race can't remember names for the trils but some of the books were Camber of Culdi, Saint Camber, Camber the Heretic, King's Justice, Bishop's Heir, the three middle ones escape me at the moment. But if you go to the local book store you can be sure to find them together! Hope you enjoy my suggestions. Anyone remember the author of Warriors? It is a DND type series. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 87 19:56:07 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes: >Also, does anyone else out there like the Celtic mythology books by >Kenneth C. Flint? I like his style. If you like Celtic stories, Becky, here are a couple others: 'Book of Kells', by R.A. McAvoy: Wherein our hero gets gated back to 10th C Ireland. A fine story and up to all I've heard about MacAvoy's writing prowess shown in other stories (which are on my reading list, needless to say). Anything more is a potential spoiler, and this book brooks no spoilage! 'Bard', by (uhh, some lady who's name I canna remember. jayembee, help?): She really did her research; this is the story of the the Celtic migration to Eire. The main character is a true Celtic Bard, a memorable and full-figured character. 'Bard', 'Bard II', and 'Bard III', by Keith Taylor: Very light-hearted fantasy-adventure fare, but the bard's combination of swordsmanship, thievery, and spell-casting will ring a bell with any who have played AD&D bards. I don't know how I missed this in my earlier posting, other than that it's not a series, but I heartily recommend "l'Morte d'Arthur", by Sir Thomas Mallory. Beware of the recent translations into Modern English, as the flavor is weakened. I read it in the Modern Library edition (with winged Mercury on the spine?), which was true to the original word-usage and spellings (spelyngs, etc.). For much of the first 50 pages, I kept one finger in the Glossary, but after that the reading was more fluid - worth the struggle of the first 50 to get the next 850 in Olde English. The public library let me keep it for the month I spent reading it. "And the twane smashd togydirs lyk borys." == "And the two smashed together like boars." Kristopher Stephens Amdahl Corporation amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com 408-746-6047 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 16:39:09 GMT From: mjlarsen@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Michael J. Larsen) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... My favorite little-known fantasy series is E.R.Eddison's Zimiamvia trilogy: Mistress of Mistresses A Fish Dinner in Memison The Mezentian Gate These three are loosely-linked, independent novels, with a tenuous connection to Eddison's better known _The_Worm_Ouroboros_. They are extremely slow-paced; the reader must be prepared for five page descriptions of the jewels adorning the royal palace or the dishes served at some mighty feast. The prose style is completely unlike anything else that has been written since the early seventeenth century. For delicacy of irony and magnificence of heroes, I do not think Eddison has an equal in fantasy. Two warnings: there are a number of short passages in foreign languages (mostly ancient Greek, with occasional Romance and Scandinavian tongues). Also, the last book (second chronologically) is unfinished; many of the chapters appear only as outlines. Michael Larsen ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 03:42:37 GMT From: 6100192@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Sundeep Amrute) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... Another excellent series is Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser series. The books, six in all, show Eddison's influence, but are in a much lighter vein. The books follow the adventures of two thieves in the imaginary world of Nehwon. The books contain lots of the traditional swordplay and sorcery, but their main attraction is the fact that the reader gets to follow the heroes from their youth all the way to middle age. Unlike most fantasy series, where the the characters remain static, Lieber's heroes go through trials which change them, for better or worse. If you're looking for books to hold your interest, I can't think of a more engaging series than this one. Hope I've been of some help. BITNET: 6100192@PUCC UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET.6100192 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Mar 87 0951-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #78 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Mar 87 0951-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #78 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 78 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Recommendations (9 msgs) & Book Covers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Mar 87 21:03:47 GMT From: jhunix!ecf_ety@rutgers.edu (Berserker Bob) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... dand@tekigm.TEK.COM (Dan C. Duval) writes: > I feel strange recommending Piers Anthony, but try "Blue Adept". > THe main character has to operate in two different societies with > different physical laws while trying to find out who is trying to > off him, in both Actually, if you are interested in reading this book, I suggest you wait and read another book first. _Blue_Adept_ is the second book in a trilogy. The trilogy is called _The_Apprentice_Adept_. The books are: _Split_Infinity_ _Blue_Adept_ _Juxtaposition_ I think the first book started out kind of slow, but it definitely picks up. _Juxtaposition_ is a good book. Ted Ying BITNET: ECF_ETY@JHUVMS.BITNET ecf_ety@jhunix.BITNET UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs! allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ecf_ety ihnp4!whuxcc! ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 17:31:58 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... I hope my faux pas doesn't get everyone focused on the linguistic facts rather than my recommendation of Morte d'Arthur as a fine piece of fantasy-adventure writing. (Anyone wanna say, "That's a *terrible* book! Not only the worst that Malory ever wrote, but worst in the genre!" to start a new battle? :-) ) In any case, it's fun reading. Additional recommendations have arrived: Morgan Llewelyn was the author of "Bard" (which I recommended without remembering her name); her "Lion of Ireland" about Brian Boru was suggested as (even?) better, along with: , Rosemary Sutcliff Often written for teenagers, but the stories are good. The Crimson Chalice, Victor Canning Sometimes published as a trilogy, sometimes under one cover. Subject is, once again, the Arthurian legends. A Flight of Gulls, Patricia Finney(?) Ulster myth cycle. These suggestions thanks to Brian Thompstone , a newcomer to the net. Kristopher Stephens amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com Amdahl Corporation 408-746-6047 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 13:26:47 GMT From: bt@ssl-macc.co.uk (Brian Thompstone) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... krs@amdahl.UUCP (Kris Stephens) writes: >If you like Celtic stories, Becky, here are a couple others: > >'Bard', by (uhh, some lady who's name I canna remember. jayembee, >help?): > She really did her research; this is the story of the > the Celtic migration to Eire. The main character is a > true Celtic Bard, a memorable and full-figured character. Her name is Morgan Llewelyn. Actually, this has to be on the borderline between fantasy and historical romance (no, I'm not going to *define* either!). Though not exactly historical: she may well have done her research but the Milesian migration from ~Spain to Ireland is an 18th or 19th Century fiction. Still, an enjoyable book - but her Lion of Ireland (concerning Brian Boru) is much better. If you really like this sort of stuff, then try anything by Rosemary Sutcliff (often aimed at teenagers, but what the hell...) or The Crimson Chalice by Victor Canning (sometimes published as a trilogy: TCC, The Circle of the Gods, The Immortal Wound) [Arthurian Legends]. Or 'A Flight of Gulls', Patricia Finney (?) [Ulster Myth Cycle]. BT ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 87 00:53:29 GMT From: randolph%cognito@Sun.COM (Randolph Fritz (Software Support)) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... I'm not sure I understand "series" in this context. There are two kinds of series: open-ended and closed. An open-ended series goes on until author, publisher, or readers gets tired. *Sherlock Holmes* even outlasted Doyle's willingness to keep writing; the readers made him resurrect Holmes after Richenbach falls. In my opinion, most open-ended speculative fiction series are dull. After all, one of the chief virtues of sf is the freedom; one isn't stuck with the same world forever. Still, there a few worth a look. A closed series, on the other hand, is a very long story which either won't fit in a single book or is longer than necessary. There are great many of these at all levels of quality. Here are some series I liked, in no particular order. My comments on these are *not* reviews; if you'd like to find out more about them before buying, I suggest *The Reader's Guide to Fantasy* and *The Reader's Guide to Science Fiction*, useful paperbacks. These ought to keep you busy for a while. JRR Tolkien, *Lord of the Rings* by writing a book so long it had to be published as three volumes, Tolkien invented the modern epic fantasy. If you really love this, you should try the *Silmarillion* and the *Book of Lost Tales*. PC Hodgell, *God-stalk*, *Dark of the Moon* funny, scary fantasies. Nothing to do with Celts. The series is as yet incomplete Gordon Dickson, *Childe* set in a space-travelling future. I think six books, so far. Not yet complete. Patricia McKillip, *Riddle of Stars* Three books: *The Riddle-Master of Hed*, *The Heir of Sea & Fire*, *Harpist in the Wind*. Fantasy. CJ (Carolyn) Cherryh, many books. CJ Cherryh has written many books in an open-ended future history as well as two linked Celtic fantasies (*The Dreamstone* and *Tree of Swords and Jewels*). In her future history, try *Downbelow Station*, *40,000 in Gehenna*, the "Chanur" books (a closely-linked series of four), and *The Faded Sun*, a close-linked series of three. Robert A. Heinlein, *The Past through Tomorrow* An old (1940-1950) future history. Jack Vance, *The Dying Earth* and *Lyonesse* Elegant fantasies Susan Allison Dexter, *The Ring of Allaire* fantasies Randolph Fritz sun!rfritz rfritz@sun.com ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 87 14:13:53 GMT From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... > So, I would appreciate some comments about people's favorite > fantasy series - hopefully there will be a couple that I won't > have read the first chapter of. My favorite in recent years is Barbara Hambly's trilogy: The Time of the Dark The Walls of Air The Armies of Daylight at least I think those are the titles. The first book has a cover with a well armed wizard sitting in a modern kitchen drinking a beer. This series is very good and held me in greater suspense than the Belgariad or Lord of the Rings. It is by no means perfect, but the rough spots are few and the many plotlines should keep you interested. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 87 18:47:58 GMT From: amdahl!chuck (Charles Simmons) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... randolph@sun.UUCP (Randolph Fritz (Software Support)) writes: > JRR Tolkien, *Lord of the Rings* > PC Hodgell, *God-stalk*, *Dark of the Moon* > Gordon Dickson, *Childe* > Patricia McKillip, *Riddle of Stars* > CJ (Carolyn) Cherryh, many books. > Robert A. Heinlein, *The Past through Tomorrow* > Jack Vance, *The Dying Earth* and *Lyonesse* > Susan Allison Dexter, *The Ring of Allaire* Randolph somehow managed to overlook one of the best series of all time, the Amber series by Roger Zelazny. For a long time there were five books in this series which form a single, complete story. Zelazny is now in the process of writing a sequel to this series. Cheers, Chuck ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 87 21:29:51 GMT From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... Try C.J. Cherryh. The Ivriel series is pretty good. It is a trilogy that is weak in the middle and suffers from her tendency to run her characters ragged (no sleep for days, etc.). However, she does a finely drawn clan and honor based society in the first (Gate of Ivriel) and shows how a member of that fares in much different circumstances. She is very good at portraying alien culture and thought patterns. She also often talks about how people adapt when taken out of home context. The Chanur series shows some of this. Not fantasy, but intelligent space opera. I agree with somebody else a few days ago, she spends a lot of time in the first couple of books setting up the cultures and your expectations, then in the last two uses that base to really cut loose. My favorite is her Faded Sun trilogy. The setting is a war between humanity and aliens (the Regul). The regul rarely fight (they rarely do ANYTHING for themselves once they mature) so use a mercenary race called the Mri. These folk are very like humans but have survived on a culture that is almost insect-like in its resistance to change. They are another of her samauri-like warrior peoples, however, with a complete culture. Anywho, by the end of the first book I was furious at the mri for being so stupid and suicidally inflexible (human viewpoint). By the end of the third, I felt she had gotten the reader deep inside two very alien viewpoints to the point of understanding and appreciating why. Not fantasy but highly recommended. Tanith Lee has a good series going, I have heard it referred to as the flat earth series. First book is Night's Master. Short, loosely connected stories but good background. Next is the best: Death's Master. I think Delusion's Master was next but after that it is starting to go downhill. This is not an action packed swords & mages type of thing. She has a very distinct writing style based on rich description of emotion and character, a fantastic world, and rather interesting magic characters (what do you think of a character who is male is some points, female at others as a general expression of current mental context?) Allan ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 18:45:48 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... dand@tekigm.TEK.COM (Dan C. Duval) writes: >I feel strange recommending Piers Anthony, but try "Blue Adept". Hell, I feel stranger recommending Piers (it'll ruin my image) but look at the Incarnations of Immortality series. It is very uneven between books, but when it is good it is great, and when it is bad it is horrible. Fortunately, there has only been one truly horrible book (the second), so it's probably worth watching. I'll also highly recommend two books by clare bell: "Ratha's Creature" and "Clan Ground" -- only available as Atheneum hardbacks right now, but the paperback rights have been sold to Dell. Also, track down the St. Germain series by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro. These are basically out of print except through the Science Fiction Book club, but they've been sold to Tor who will be bringing them out (along with six NEW novels based around Olivia) starting in (I think) August. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 87 01:55:41 GMT From: grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry) writes: >Try C.J. Cherryh. The Ivriel series is pretty good. It is a >trilogy that is weak in the middle and suffers from her tendency to >run her characters ragged (no sleep for days, etc.). However, she >does a finely drawn clan and honor based society in the first (Gate >of Ivriel) and shows how a member of that fares in much different >circumstances. I'll second this, and also for the person who liked the Chanur series, I'll claim that the Faded Sun series I *much* better than Chanur. I found Chanur to be too loose with too many flavors of humanoid aliens running around. Of course it might be a better reflection of reality. I found the Gates/Ivrel series ok, but pretty murkey. I want to reread it again one of these days to see if I missed something. If you like space opera, I'd also check out the Dream Dancer and Silestra series by Janet Morris - also a bit murkey (BTW, ignore the Silestra cover blurbs). Also Floating World by Ceceilia Holland (a one book series). Fantasy - try The Serpent...Some Summer Lands by Jane Gaskell. This is a raw form of some current fantasy series - powerful and evocative, but of mixed quality. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 87 18:09:32 GMT From: sq!becky Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... randolph@sun.UUCP (Randolph Fritz (Software Support)) writes: >CJ (Carolyn) Cherryh, many books. > CJ Cherryh has written many books in an open-ended future > history as well as two linked Celtic fantasies (*The Dreamstone* > and *Tree of Swords and Jewels*). In her future history, try > *Downbelow Station*, *40,000 in Gehenna*, the "Chanur" books (a > closely-linked series of four), and *The Faded Sun*, a > close-linked series of three. Maybe all this stuff will get me to do some serious rereading before AD ASTRA... Mr. Fritz pointed out that he was not reviewing, so don't go thinking I'm disagreeing with him here. But I wanted to recommend Carolyn's MERCHANTER'S LUCK, which is a lighter space-opera-type book set in roughly the same time-slot as DOWNBELOW STATION. My trouble with both DOWNBELOW and 40,000 IN GEHENNA is the rather superficial characterization involved; there are too many people important to these stories to make them fun for me, even while these two books are probably more realistic than her other stories. Another excellent CJC book is HUNTER OF WORLDS, which hasn't gotten a lot of press recently. I also really enjoyed WAVE WITHOUT A SHORE, but most people find it involves too many discussions of philosophy and too little actual story. (I disagree... But then, I usually do...) In Cherryh's Khemeis, a CJCherryh fan club, most members list the Morgaine trilogy, THE FADED SUN, and the Chanur series as among the best of her works. THE FADED SUN is all one story, about three characters, Sten Duncan (human), Melein ("mri", equivalent to a "High Priestess"), and Niun (mri, of the race's warrior caste). The humans are at war with a race called the "regul", and the mri act as hired mercenaries for the regul. When the regul sign a treaty (something the mri don't understand) with the humans, they decide that they must then kill off the mri... and Duncan gets caught in the middle. Sort-of:^(. Anyway, the three books can be read individually, but they are best together. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 87 22:17:58 EST From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: Re: book covers True some covers don't have anything much to do with the book, but just be thankful we live in the 80's and get real covers. Quite a lot of covers from the 60's (Ace's Specials come to mind) were really wretched, more designs than illustrations. Also, why is it that hardback jackets have historically had such bad art when compared to paperbacks? (Though this seems to be changing in SF now). Ted Nolan ted@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Mar 87 0956-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #79 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Mar 87 0956-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #79 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 79 Today's Topics: Films - Dune (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Feb 87 15:48:59 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #20 russell@eneevax.UUCP (Christopher Russell) writes: >I rather enjoyed reading DUNE. I found it a good combination of >adventure, politics, and other cultures. The movie, on the other >hand, left MUCH to be desired. Although the first half of the >movie followed the book "rather" well (the changes made were >sometimes drastic, but understandable), as soon as Paul goes into >the desert, it's as if the screenwriters chucked the book in the >trash. If you read the book on the making of Dune you will discover that the book was not chucked in the trash. The original screenplay as actually filmed was an almost page by page copy of the book (except things like Baron Harkonnen who was drastically hammed-up to make him more villainous). The problems occurred when the film had been cut down as far as it would go without bastardising the plot and it was found to be around four and a half hours long! So they set about cutting it down to a more reasonable length whilst at the same time trying not to interfere with the films *internal* logic. To do this they had to take out several of the action scenes such as Paul's fight with Harahs's husband (whose name escapes me at the moment) because if they had left that in they would have to keep the whole of the Harah storyline in. The other noticeable cut was Feyd-Rauthas fight with the undrugged slave which again was tied in with a fairly lengthy sub-plot. The major problem with the cutting of the film was that the importance of the crys-knives was lost, but if you hadn't already read the book it was not a vital loss, and, if you had read it you knew that anyway and could fill in from memory (I know it isn't exactly satisfactory but it works :-) You may think that these were just excuses that the film company put out but also included in the book were stills from the film, including a lot of bits that didn't actually make the released version. I don't actually like the fact that the film was cut up but I don't see how a better job could have been done whilst still keeping the *film* logical. >When it rained in the end, I almost cried. So did I and there is no way that I can defend this. Piers Cawley ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 87 05:03:06 GMT From: 6090617@PUCC.BITNET (Robert Wald) Subject: DUNE Regarding DUNE. I loved the first book, and thought it went down drastically from there. But what I am really interested in is the movie. Do movie companies ever release uncut versions of films? I would *love* to see an uncut DUNE (on a very long tape, I presume). Could they be pressured to do so? (Is there a precedent?) The rainfall at the end was absolutely unforgivable. The interpretation of the weirding way was also unforgivable. Were these (or any of the other corruptions that I can't think of now) different to begin with? Rob Wald Princeton University Information Centers 6090617@PUCC.BITNET allegra!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 87 15:29:40 GMT From: eneevax!russell@rutgers.edu (Christopher Russell) Subject: Re: DUNE 6090617@PUCC.BITNET writes: > The rainfall at the end was absolutely unforgivable. absolutely. > The interpretation of the weirding way was also unforgivable. Now, when you say "the interpretation of the weirding way", are you referring to the weirding weapons that the film contrived, or the way people had their voices sound like Regan in the Exorcist whenever they used the weirding way? Personally, I found both of them tolerable. I can understand the introduction of the weapons into the story, because it would take to long to explain to the audience that the Emperor was going after Atreides because he was afraid of Atreides growing popularity in the Landsraat. Instead, they just gave Atreides a powerful weapon, and said that the Emperor was going after him because he was afraid of his becoming too powerful. As to the funny voices caused by using mind control, I thought it was a reasonable special effect to show us that something special was going on. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not promoting DUNE. In fact, if you've read the book DON'T SEE THE MOVIE! However, the more I think about it, the more I realize that they did a reasonable job with the movie up until Paul and his mother go into the desert. They didn't do a GOOD job, just a reasonable one. Or maybe the movie was so bad, I'm just desperately looking for good things to say about it... Chris Russell Computer Aided Design Lab University of Maryland Arpa: russell@king.ee.umd.edu UUCP: ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell Jnet: russell@umcincom Fone: (301)454-8886 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 87 20:20:08 GMT From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alex B. Granok) Subject: Re: DUNE > 6090617@PUCC.BITNET writes: > Regarding DUNE. I loved the first book, and thought it went down >drastically from there. But what I am really interested in is the >movie. > Do movie companies ever release uncut versions of films? I would >*love* to see an uncut DUNE (on a very long tape, I presume). Could >they be pressured to do so? (Is there a precedent?) > The rainfall at the end was absolutely unforgivable. > The interpretation of the weirding way was also unforgivable. > Were these (or any of the other corruptions that I can't think of >now) different to begin with? From what I have read on the making of the movie (part of this from Herbert himself), there was just so much that could be done in the three hours or so that most American movie-goers will sit through. There are quite a few scenes that were cut out for one reason or another. What he would have liked to have done is show it on TV as a mini-series so that all of the footage could be shown, and the plot would be that much more continuous. As far as I know, Herbert generally approved of the film, although I tend to think that, even though he never admitted it, he sold himself over to the sensationalism of the Hollywood crowd. My biggest complaint (though I also didn't like the "weirding module" bit) was with the serious omission of Paul's relationship with Duncan Idaho. It was as if he said "Hi! I'm Duncan Idaho, and you'll never see me again in this movie, except when it's time for me to go!" Duncan is by far the most important character in the whole series (after Paul and Leto II), and his brushing aside was sacrilege. If you haven't read the fourth through sixth books, do so! I though the last two were particulary good (almost on a par with the big D itself). Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 16:31:56 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: DUNE russell@eneevax.UUCP (Christopher Russell) writes: >Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not promoting DUNE. In fact, if >you've read the book DON'T SEE THE MOVIE! > >Or maybe the movie was so bad, I'm just desperately looking for >good things to say about it... One thing I would say in the movie's favor is that it is better than the book. The movie had seeds of greatness, which fell completely flat in the second half. I think if Lynch had been left to himself and the movie was allowed to run 4+ hours it might have been an incredible thing indeed, and much superior to "Dune" the book. Gene Ward Smith UCB Math Dept Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 19:22:36 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: DUNE DUNE, the book, portrays a society which has the air of being low-tech (though that's misleading) but possesses (at least at its higher levels) great sophistication. Star Wars gives us superficially high technology along with all the sophistication of the Wizard of Oz. What a pity that DUNE, the movie, was forced into the Star Wars mould of killer robots, flashy holograms and unmotivated black hats. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 23:54:23 GMT From: sq!hobie@rutgers.edu (Hobie Orris) Subject: DUNE At WorldCon in Atlanta last year, a presentation was made by a journalist (I forget his name) who was present at the filming of DUNE and who showed many slides of the cut scenes. There was a short promo type film that showed Frank Herbert positively gushing about the film. He did look genuinely excited about it. From the slides and the narrative provided by this eyewitness, it appeared that almost nothing was left out of the movie. There were shots of Paul's fight with Jamis, Paul living with Harah (sp?), a scene in a rose garden in Caladan, and other stuff which I forget. (Perhaps someone else was there and can fill in some blanks?). Anyway, he said David Lynch would love to release the entire movie, perhaps on video, but would require another 2 million dollars to whip it into shape. Funny anecdote: Do you remember the dead cow shown on Geidi Prime in the film? When filming in Mexico, someone in the crew mistakenly left the cow out of the freezer overnight. As the weather was hot, the next morning it was decomposing and Lynch was taking fits (apparently he really liked that cow, and I can believe that, having seen Lynch's penchant for the grotesque) until someone suggested they just 'pop the cow back in the freezer'. Lynch became excited, jumping up and down and yelling "POP THE COW!! POP THE COW!!", which became a favourite joke on the set. They presented Lynch with a T-shirt sporting that phrase. Hobie Orris SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Ont. {ihnp4|decvax}!utzoo!sq!hobie ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 12:06:10 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: DUNE 6090617@PUCC.BITNET (Robert Wald) writes: > Do movie companies ever release uncut versions of films? I would > *love* to see an uncut DUNE (on a very long tape, I presume). Filmmakers shoot a lot of film covering the scenes of the script several times and then a film editor makes sense of the mess and pieces together a film from it. This can be tantamount to rewriting the script. The editor can be as important to the final product as is the director and scriptwriter combined. You may not like what the editor did with the footage of DUNE, but what you call the uncut version is a hodgepodge of many thousands of short pieces of films. What you want is a re-editing that would use more of the unused pieces. That is a lot of work for someone, but it there is demand the DEG organization might do it. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 87 21:39:44 GMT From: jgray@pilchuck.Data-IO.COM (Jerry Late Nite Gray) Subject: Re: DUNE haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes: > What a pity that DUNE, the movie, was forced into the Star Wars > mould of killer robots, flashy holograms and unmotivated black > hats. I feel abusive today. Perhaps this is "old hat" but the above article reminded me of something I had noticed some time ago after seeing the movie and rereading the book (I forget which one I did first). A lot has been said about what went wrong with the movie version but I haven't heard this one. To produce a successful movie requires that it contain elements of ENTERTAINMENT as distinct from elements of artful expression, philosophical/religious/social statment, or role fulfillment. I've have purposely made this statement vague since there are a wide variety of entertainment elements. The one I'll talk about here is what I call LE (life enjoyment) elements though you could probably get the same affect in this argument if you use the word "humor" rather than LE. Faithful representations of books can sometimes be sure death in the movie industry since the entertainment values of the two media are frequently different for a given theme. One thing that was definitely reproduced faithfully in the DUNE movie was the gross lack of LE elements. An LE element is quality in story writing which basically shows that the characters involved simply enjoy living and other than having to cope with the basic conflict in the plot they would be happy, entertain, productive and occasionally humorous characters. In most of Herbert's books, his characters come off so dead serious all the time that it is hard to believe that these characters could ever exist. An excellent example of how a series of movies can be improved by better LE usage is the most recent Star Trek film. Most of the critics have remarked that this film was "funny", less "heavy handed" and so on. I add to that the characters were more typical in human nature in their enjoyment of the roles that they played in accomplishing their goals. For example, in addition to the obviously funny lines associate with Bone's and Scotty's encounters with older technologies (which was a bit overdone at times) there was a display of enjoyment in being able to introduce new technology to the lesser endowed. There was also the enjoyment of "bitching" about the inadequacies of older technologies. Both of these things you or I might do (or at least observe in our companions) if we were somehow in the same situation. I can't picture any of Herbert's characters showing those type of tendencies. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 87 08:15:26 PST (Thursday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Re: Dune and Big Books Tim Maroney writes: >Dune's future medievalism is hardly new in science fiction; it is a >rather trite staple of the genre. The idea of power addicts and >monarchical power plays has been the backbone of more space operas >than you can shake an inertial drive at. The religious structures >seemed artificial and dry to me. What was it about them you found >revealing and new? It is not, after all, enough simply to discuss >something; one must have something in particular to say about it. >You claim Herbert's themes are strong; very well then, what are >they? Surely "power corrupts" and "it is easy to become obsessed >with things" are not all there is to his ideas. > >You seem consistently to lean on Dune's supposedly provocative ideas >to support its worth. But Dune is a novel, not a series of short >essays. With flat characters, unengaging plot, dull settings, >plodding style, and no consistent theme, it is impossible for a book >to succeed as a novel. It wasn't the idea of power addicts and power corrupting that was so interesting, but the implication that EVERYONE is an addict and that the world goes 'round because of it. THAT intrigued me. Virtually all major forces in the novel, even the good guys, are strongly addicted to something. Most of the actions in the novel seem to be outgrowths of someone trying to satisfy an addiction of some sort. How frightening, if true. The typical motives we ascribe to people get lost in the shuffle, in a society based solely around mediating conflicting addictions. The religious ideas in Dune didn't seem dry to me. I'd never seen anyone suggesting that religion could be treated as an engineering science before I read Dune. (Note: not social science, although that seemed related, but religious science. Not just description, as in comparative religion, but actual research into its uses as a tool. Amazingly cynical conception!) The Bene Gesserit fascinated me, as people far more profoundly shackled by religion than the persons they attempted to manipulate through it. I have to disagree with your overall evaluation. I found the characters much more interesting than you did, perhaps because I was watching from a different perspective (perhaps because I'm simply a shallow person myself, although I hope not!). I found most of the settings to be pretty dull, I admit, but I wasn't interested in background so much as characters. Still, Arrakis itself qualifies as pretty interesting to me. As for consistent theme, I think I've spelled out at least one. Kurt ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Mar 87 1009-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #80 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Mar 87 1009-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #80 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 80 Today's Topics: Books - Bester (3 msgs) & Brust & Cherryh (3 msgs) & Dalmas (2 msgs) & Hawke (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 05 Mar 87 17:09:03 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1) From: Derrick Subject: Re: Stars My Destination loral!dml@rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) writes: >BUT I loaned out my last copy, it never came back, and the book is >out of print AGAIN. Have you tried looking under the title "Tiger! Tiger!" That is the title my copy goes under (I bought it new a few weeks ago), but please remember I'm over in Britain. Actually, I don't think that TSMD is a terribly good title! After all, when you read the beginning, where it tells you about Jaunting, and the failure to jaunte (note the 'e' at the end, please) over interstellar distances, it rather prepares you for the ending (and the whole point) of the book. I would like to find out what Bester's title was. And now, I think I'll stop reading about Teleportation, as I've just seen The Fly. Uuuurrrrrgggghhhh...... Derrick ENU1475%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@ucl-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 87 10:28:49 GMT From: intrin!pl@rutgers.edu (Petri Launiainen) Subject: Re: Stars My Destination EMAILDEV%UKACRL.BITNET@BERKELEY.EDU writes: >I would like to find out what Bester's title was. When you seek for the original titles, the first page information on a translated version might be helpful: the original title given in the Finnish edition of the Besters' book is "The Stars My Destination (Tiger, Tiger)". Petri Launiainen Intrinsic Oy Aleksis Kiven katu 11 C 33100 Tampere, FINLAND Phone: (int) 358 31 132800 UUCP: pl@intrin.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 22:21:15 GMT From: borealis!barry (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Stars My Destination From: Derrick : >Actually, I don't think that TSMD is a terribly good title! After >all, when you read the beginning, where it tells you about >Jaunting, and the failure to jaunte (note the 'e' at the end, >please) over interstellar distances, it rather prepares you for the >ending (and the whole point) of the book. I would like to find out >what Bester's title was. I'm not certain of this, but I think I recall seeing a prepublication announcement of TSMD in GALAXY that called it THE BURNING SPEAR. You may recall that the book refers to Foyle as a "burning spear" late in the novel, when he's on fire, and jaunting all over the world. Anybody else have more information? Kayembee ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 07:46:05 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla About a month ago, this net was filled with postings talking about SKZ Brust's "Teckla", the third in a series. (Nowadays the net is filled with Deryni postings, golly :-) ) Anyway, the general feeling about the series was that it was really good, and I was intrigued enough to go out and buy them. I bought "Jhereg" and "Yendi", but couldn't find "Teckla", and settled down for some reading. What I found was very different from what the net led me to expect: from the way people talked about the books, I expected them to be much more complex and elaborate and, oh, emotionally powerful than they were. Basically, I felt as though I were reading "Mythadventures" again; there's this innocent young hero (and in "Jhereg" the fact that he's a married assassin doesn't change the fact that he comes across as a wide-eyed naif), a big gruff sidekick, and, God help us, a dragon of indeterminate but indisputable intelligence. "Jhereg" was inoffensive but not at all what I had been hoping for. "Yendi" was better, but still seemed to be lacking real interest; I was still reminded of Mythadventures at every turn. While I liked the first few Myth books, I quickly decided that reading them is like eating cotton candy; it's fun but not sustaining, and you don't particularly mind if you can't get it. (Apologies to cotton candy fanatics.) I still read the Myth books when I see one lying around, but I wouldn't pay for one; they just don't hold my interest. So I nearly gave up on the series. But a lot of the discussion of "Teckla", which I had skimmed at the time and vaguely remembered, was about how much darker, more depressing, less enjoyable the third book was. It seemed that the general feeling was that the third book wasn't as good as the other two. Remembering this, and reasoning that "Teckla" might be very different from its predecessors, I bought it when I found it, a few days ago. I liked it *much* more than the others. In fact, I liked it so much that I just bought SKZB's "To Reign in Hell". With "Teckla" I started feeling that these were real people in a real situation, although the flippant first-person narration still grates a little. "Teckla" has convinced me to stay with the series, which I would have stopped following after the second if I hadn't known "Teckla" promised to be different. The point of this? I'm interested by the fact that it was the book which SKZB fans seemed to like least that hooked me. Are there any other people out there who share my feelings? I also wonder if SKZB has worked out the stories behind the fragments he keeps dropping here and there (e.g. "Deathsgate Falls... but that's another story"). I'm afraid that too much timeline hopping will fragment the series, by telling isolated stories with predetermined endings rather than letting us watch Vlad progress smoothly forward through time. Jumping around the timeline didn't hurt the Darkover series, but Darkover has a much more fleshed-out background than this series does. (I'm still confused by the relationship between "Draghearans" (sp? haven't got the books here in my office) and "Easterners" (== humans?), but I gather that I'm supposed to be. OK, I'll wait...) Comments invited... (Mr. Brust, are you there? I'm gonna keep reading them, honest) Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 20:51:53 GMT From: cpf@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Courtenay Footman) Subject: Re: New "Morgaine" book (was Re: Help!... Find me ...) becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes: >I know you asked for fantasy, but there's a great sf series just >completed that you should probably try. CJCherryh's Chanur series. >The first book, THE PRIDE OF CHANUR (a great pun!), stands on its >own, and the next -four?- all go together. Really good Three Chanur's Venture, The Kif Strike Back, and Chanur's Homecoming These are not separate books, but rather one large book published as three volumes. There is no attempt at a resolution at the end of either of the first two. The middle title was accidentally invented by a befuddled publishing executive, and an amused (bemused?) Cherry thought it was a great idea. In my opinion, Cherryh's best. >stuff, but you'll have difficulties if you want more than one human >involved... > >CJcherryh also wrote a trilogy-soon-to-be-more that is sometimes >classed as sf and sometimes as fantasy. The Morgaine trilogy, >starting with GATE OF IVREL, will soon have a fourth book added. >(For those interested, Carolyn gets a nasty gleam in her eye when >we ask about what will or will not be between Morgaine and Vanye, >and refuses to talk; this fourth book will be more from Morgaine's >point of view than Vanye's). Each book takes place on a different >world, and is concerned with the closing of the Gates between them. >-Becky Slocombe. Is there a tentative publication date for this? Until Chanur's Homecoming, the Morgaine trilogy was my favorite Cherryh. Courtenay Footman Lab. of Nuclear Studies Cornell University ARPA: cpf@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu Bitnet: cpf%lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu@WISCVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 87 23:25:15 GMT From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Cherryh (was Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... I must disagree with the various glowing recommendations of the works of CJ Cherryh that have been posted lately. While I thought Hunter of Worlds was excellent, and rather liked Brothers of Earth, I haven't found much interest in the rest of her work. Specifically, I've read the first book of the Faded Sun trilogy and didn't like it at all, and I read half of Downbelow Station before finally given up in disgust (making it one of about a dozen books in my entire life that I have stopped reading part way through). This is not intended for a moment to detract from Ad Astra (which was discussed in a recent message also dealing with Ms. Cherryh, since she will be goh there). Ms. Cherryh is a very nice person and a good GOH (she was our guest at Minicon some years ago), and clearly an important writer in the field whether I like her works or not. I'm planning to be at Ad Astra -- see you there. (And at Fourth St. Fantasy Convention in Minneapolis two weeks later.) David Dyer-Bennet UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 17:18:15 GMT From: carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore) Subject: Re: Cherryh (was Re: Help!... Find me a good series Subject: please... ddb@viper.UUCP (David Dyer-Bennet) writes: > I must disagree with the various glowing recommendations of the > works of CJ Cherryh that have been posted lately. Well, tastes differ. I found Downbelow Station one of the ten best SF books I've ever read, (and given that it got the Hugo in, I believe, '82, quite a few other people must have thought well of it). Cherryh's three books in the 'merchanter' series, Downbelow Station, Merchanter's Luck, and Voyager in Night, manage better than anything I've seen in years to invoke the quality that first attracted me to science fiction. For lack of a better term, I've always called it 'the romance of engineering'. By this I mean that special excitement of being there and watching the men and women of the future interact with their environment, and feel the human impact of their environment. I haven't seen anything as good as Cherryh since some of the early Heinlein (The Green Hills of Earth, The Man who Sold the Moon, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, etc.) In addition, Downbelow Station contains some absolutely first rate character description and character development. I can't be the only one who fell in love with that beautifuly complex triangle of interactions among Damon Konstantin, Signey Mallory, and Josh Talley, or marveled at the incredible way Damon Konstantin becomes a moral catalyst for several of the major characters without ever losing his individual and imperfect humanity. God, this is LITERATURE. Anyway, you can see I'm quite a Cherryh fan, and I seem to have missed the 'ad astra' posting you discussed. Could you re-post when and where? Thank you. Carole Ashmore ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 1987 11:20:01-EST From: wyzansky@NADC Subject: Re: Post Plague Holocaust Novels While we are on the subject of post-plague holocaust novels, John Dalmas wrote _The_Yngling_, which was serialized in Analog in 1970 and published in paperback about a year later along with a short story sequel _But_Mainly_By_Cunning_. It takes place in Europe a couple of hundred years after a plague wiped out 99+% of humanity. The culture has regressed (re-advanced?) to a feudal level. There is a liberal dose of SF stuff like psionics mixed in. The main reason I am bringing this up is that the book ends with an obvious hook for a sequel. Does anyone out there know if such a sequel has ever been published? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 06:21:19 GMT From: percival!leonard@rutgers.edu (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: Post Plague Holocaust Novels From: wyzansky@NADC >John Dalmas wrote _The_Yngling_, ... >The main reason I am bringing this up is that the book ends with an >obvious hook for a sequel. Does anyone out there know if such a >sequel has ever been published? Yes. Tor Books published "Homecoming" in September 1984. I found a copy on the shelves of a bookstore only a few months ago. It deals with an expedition from a colony cut off by the cessation of interstellar travel. They have finally managed to build a starship and when they land on Earth they run into the Master of the "orcs" that Nils and company were fighting in the first book... ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 87 12:42:42 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl Subject: THE IVANHOE GAMBIT by Simon Hawke THE IVANHOE GAMBIT by Simon Hawke Ace, 1984 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Copyright 1987 Evelyn C. Leeper This is the first of a series of time travel adventures entitled, collectively, "Time Wars." The U. S. Army Temporal Corps is busy trying to prevent people from going back and disturbing history. Not a very original idea, but Hawke does put some spin on the ball--the history that people go back to centers around fictional characters and events. If a ROMAN A CLEF is a novel in which real characters appear, thinly disguised, then what is the term for a novel in which someone else's literary creations are appear as real characters? My friendly literary reference person says she knows of no such term, but certainly there have been many such novels; I suspect the most prolific are those involving Sherlock Holmes. But back to THE IVANHOE GAMBIT. In this novel, as you may have guessed, Sergeant Major Lucas Priest travels back to the time of Robin Hood, Maid Marion, Ivanhoe, Isaac of York, Rebecca, and the whole schmeer. The army and the military characters seem to be patterned after Heinlein, and offer not much in the way of surprises. The other characters, in case you couldn't guess, are patterned after Scott, though there is some variation from Scott's characterization. The story is straight-forward adventure with a few twists, and while it won't set the world on fire, it's a pleasant enough way to spend an evening. I expect to read the sequels (THE TIMEKEEPER CONSPIRACY, THE PIMPERNEL PLOT, THE ZENDA VENDETTA, THE NAUTILUS SANCTION, and THE KHYBER CONNECTION) in the not-too-distant future. At least I know they've been released; I'm still waiting for Leo Frankowski's continuation of THE CROSS-TIME ENGINEER. (I just know someone will tell me they've already been released and are now out of print!) Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 17:45:06 GMT From: reed!mirth@rutgers.edu (The Reedmage) Subject: Re: THE IVANHOE GAMBIT by Simon Hawke I've been reading the Hawke books as they came out (though I haven't bothered to get the Khyber Connection). They are indeed pleasant -- and they did something rather good for me; i.e., in order to appreciate them, I read the classics they were based on. So I have now read The Three Musketeers, The Scarlet Pimpernel, and the Prisoner of Zenda (I'd already read 20,000 Leagues). How did I manage not to read these wonderful books until halfway through college? I dunno. But Hawke got me to read them, and thereby vastly increased my fondness for his series. However, I must warn you that the books do go downhill -- the tech level inflates dramatically (sorta like Jim Starlin characters; everybody gets too powerful too fast), the scope of the story goes down (all of a sudden the main characters are the prime cause of everything SPOILER (MAYBE) because the terrorists are acting solely to trap Our Heroes; their motivations drop to personal conflict instead of global politics) END SPOILER and the original classics remain a far better read. So I may or may not get the Khyber Connection, but I am more pleased than not that this series exists. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Mar 87 1026-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #81 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Mar 87 1026-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #81 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 81 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Stardrives (5 msgs) & SFWA & Tucker Awards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Feb 87 16:56:30 GMT From: ellis@onion.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis) Subject: Stardrives ( was Niven teleport booths ) Righty-ho! Having fed my bit of fuel onto the raging discusssion of teleport booths that has all but taken over the net in the past month or so, let's start another... This one has to do with methods of "Flipping a spaceship between the furthest stars," and their side-effects. The systems I know of at present are 1) The Generation Ship A very large enclosed ecology which takes many generations to sail between even the closest stars. Problems include size - this thing has got to be large to be self-sustaining - and whether the descendants of the original settlers of the ship will continue to run the ship correctly. Stories: NONSTOP, Brian Aldiss 2) The Frozen Sleep Method A normal ship, accelerated to solar escape velocity, again taking many years to make the trip under computer control. The crew are kept in suspended animation, and awakened on arrival at the target star. Problems include computer malfunction, side-effects of the sleep, and also troubleshooting along the way. Stories: 2001, Arthur Clarke; A WORLD OUT OF TIME, Larry Niven; THE DREAM MILLENIUM,(unknown). Also, a slight variation is used in Bob Forward's THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY. The aging process ( and the intelligence ) of the starship crew is retarded. 3) The Bussard Ramjet. Allows the ship to accelerate to the midpoint of its course, then start decelerating, since the fuel supply is the interstellar hydrogen gas. It is scooped in by large magnetic fields, compressed to fusion, and allowed to propel the vehicle like a normal fusion rocket engine. Problems include the effect of the massive magnetic fields needed on the crew ( if any ). Stories: Almost anything by Larry Niven, particularly A WORLD OUT OF TIME, RINGWORLD ENGINEERS, PROTECTOR also TAU ZERO, Poul Anderson (?). 4) Hyperspace A lot of variation in this field... as you may expect. Mainly involves either injecting the spaceship into a non-space sort of place where the speed of light is a lot faster, or the distance between points in normal space is greatly reduced. Almost any kind of faster-than-light travel uses this medium. Problems include getting in and out of hyperspace, orientation, timing, speed regulation, what you see out the viewports of the ship, etc etc etc etc. Stories: almost any SF set in interstellar civilizations. 5) Improbability Drive 'Nuff said ! 6) "Conventional Teleportation" Basically, put a teleport transmitter on one planet, and a receiver on the target planet ( or near it ). Voila! Space travel. Obviously, speed depends on the method you are using. Problems include alignment of transmitter beam, rela- tive velocities, etc. Stories: ALL THE BRIDGES RUSTING ( in CONVERGENT SERIES ) by Niven ( again ) 7) Warp drives Basically an extension of the rocket motor which will accelerate you to above the speed of light. Problems include speed-of-light barrier, relativity ( what do we do with the extra mass ? ). Stories: STAR TREK. Hope this inspires debate. How do YOU get to the stars ? Can you prove these will ( or won't ) work ? Can you design one ( if so, patent it very very very quickly ) ? Can you see problems, solutions to problems mentioned, etc ? CU Soon ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 87 22:52:59 GMT From: uokmax!rmtodd@rutgers.edu (Richard Michael Todd) Subject: Re: Stardrives ( was Niven teleport booths ) ellis@onion.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis) writes: > 1) The Generation Ship > 2) The Frozen Sleep Method > Stories: 2001, Arthur Clarke; A WORLD OUT OF TIME, Larry Niven; > THE DREAM MILLENIUM,(unknown). The Dream Millenium was by James White of _Hospital Station_ fame. Minor nit: _A World Out of Time_ used a combination of cold-sleep *and* Bussard ramjet (for those really long trips :-)) . Stories like this are what make making up catagories like these fun. Also, some of the Niven Known Space series used cold sleep (before man could build manned ramjets). An interesting variant of this appeared in Sheffield's _Between the Strokes of Night_ -- the interstellar ships were crewed by people who had been shifted into a 2000x slower metabolic rate but were still conscious throughout the trip. > 3) The Bussard Ramjet. > also TAU ZERO, Poul Anderson (?). Yep, it was Anderson. > 4) Hyperspace > 5) Improbability Drive > 'Nuff said ! > 6) "Conventional Teleportation" > Basically, put a teleport transmitter on one planet, and a > receiver on the target planet ( or near it ). Voila! Space travel. > Obviously, speed depends on the method you are using. Problems > include alignment of transmitter beam, rela- tive velocities, etc. > Stories: ALL THE BRIDGES RUSTING ( in CONVERGENT SERIES ) by Niven > ( again ) Another couple of examples of this type: "The Ways of Love" by Poul Anderson. Also the "Reformed Sufi" stories by Ray Brown a couple of years back in Analog. The Ray Brown stories used the old record-and-transmit-information-and-destroy-the-original gimmick with an interesting twist -- one of the planets didn't really have a receiver but just dumped the information-files of the people into a massive computer which was programmed to simulate a small part of the universe. > 7) Warp drives > Basically an extension of the rocket motor which will accelerate > you to above the speed of light. Problems include speed-of-light > barrier, relativity ( what do we do with the extra mass ? ). > Stories: STAR TREK. It isn't terribly clear whether or not the Enterprise is still in our space when in warp drive or whether it's in subspace. 8. "Relativity, what's relativity?" Used in Doc Smith's Skylark series. Don't worry about time-dilation, just keep on accelerating and ignore all relativistic effects. (I don't recommend anyone implement this one--I have more faith in Spec. Relativity than Doc Smith does :-) Richard Todd USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069 UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 87 06:06:49 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Stardrives ( was Niven teleport booths ) ellis@onion.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis) writes: >This one has to do with methods of "Flipping a spaceship between >the furthest stars," and their side-effects. The systems I know of >at present are You forgot a few: (1) Spindizzies (2) ``Alderson drive'' -- similar to spindizzies in that it's based on as-yet undiscovered physics; but the equations for this one exist. Ask Dan Alderson sometime. (3) Dickson's ``phase-shift'' drive (actually, this is a more ``serious'' version of the Improbability Drive...) Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 19:01:01 GMT From: berry@solaria..ARPA (Berry Kercheval) Subject: Re: Stardrives ( was Niven teleport booths ) allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >ellis@onion.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis): >> This one has to do with methods of "Flipping a spaceship between >>the furthest >You forgot a few: He also missed the Tipler Machine -- a massive dense rotating cylinder which has time like geodesics in its vicinity. Cf. THE AVATAR by Poul Anderson (complete with references to Tiplers papers in Phys. Rev. Lett.) and John de Chancie's STARRIGGER series. Berry Kercheval berry@mordor.s1.gov {ucbvax!decwrl,siesmo}!mordor!berry Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory Special Studies Program ("O" division) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 87 15:44:28 GMT From: ain@s.cc.purdue.edu (Patrick White) Subject: Bussard ramjet impossible I just finished reading an article posted to sci.space (article <8702161535. AA16581@angband.s1.gov> written by Gary Allen) about why the Bussard ramjet is impossible. Since I thought it might be of interest to some of the readers of this group, I am going to follow with a short (!) summary of what he writes. It seems that Gary found the origional paper by R. W. Bussard and checked the calculations. Although the calculations are correct, he found two "bugs" that make the ramjet infeasable: 1) Intersteller hydrogen is 10,000 times LESS dense than what Bussard thought, and most of what hydrogen is there is useless for fusion outside of the core of a star, 2) The magnetic field necessary to capture the hydrogen would be strong enough to destroy the ship -- even if it was made out of diamond. If you are interested in Gary Allen's calculations, please read his origional posting first (I have a copy if you need one) and direct questions to him. Thank you. Pat White {ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,decvax}ee.ecn.purdue.edu!s.cc.purdue.edu!ain ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 87 21:59:58 GMT From: inuxm!arlan@rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: SFWA Advantages In response to a net question about the advantages of belonging to SFWA (Science Fiction Writers of America): SFWA membership includes subscriptions to the SFWA Forum, which is a letterzine from members. The SFWA Bulletin you get, I believe, quarterly, and it contains articles about SF writers and SF writing, including markets, editors, who's looking for what kind of book, story, etc. SFWA has a grievance committee that can help the writer who might have trouble with contracts, royalties, and other relations with agents and publishers. At WorldCons, NASFICs, and some regional cons, SFWA business meetings allow one to input on matters of concern to SF writers. At Austin in 1985, I proposed that SFWA write NASA to insist that the first writer taken into space be a SFWAn. Greg Bear seconded the motion, and Norman Spinrad said it was a good idea, and the members present voted in favor of the motion. SFWA members, by definition, nominate and vote for Nebula contenders. I have had the privilege of seeing stories that I was first to nominate actually make it to some balloting. (And one of my own even got to within one vote of the preliminary ballot.) As a SFWAn, you usually get free memberships to SF conventions; you stand a chance of becoming a "Special Guest" of some kind when fans find out you are a "real pro", and there is a general kind of respect shown to authors at all conventions, whether or not you are there for free. (In my own case, somehow this year I will get to MC two cons--Inconjunction and Contact, in Evansville, Indiana; get to be a guest at Nexus in Springfield, Mo., first weekend in June, and be a guest at MuncieCon in Muncie, IN, in May, plus some other appearances at Millenicon and Rivercon.) I doubt these opportunities would have arisen had I not made my SFWA membership known. (One mustn't hide the candle, you know.) It's fun to be on panels with other pros; Andy Offutt, Joel Rosenberg and I shared a DeepSouthCon panel with Somtow Suchkaritkul (sp?) and he had us rolling in aisles with unbelievable stories. Some SFWAns say the best part of membership is when the secret cabal of SF greats lets you into the innermost mystery rites of initiation, but --well, that's another story, only for those strong of heart. Some SFWAns say the best part of memberships is the nocturnal neural network that you are plugged into and from which you are allowed to take all those weird story ideas. Some say that it is nice to get a dozen paperbacks and the occasional hardcover SF book from a publisher who wants to make sure you have read their Nebula nominee, or the magazine that wants you to be sure to read ALL of their short story nominees... I say the best part, however, is that you can get into the SFWA suites at various cons and party with the real pros! (Partiers, that is--the real professionals...) Arlan Andrews ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 87 13:00:41 CST From: Rich Zellich Subject: 1987 TUCKER Awards Nomination Form for SF-Lovers readers T U C K E R A W A R D N O M I N A T I O N S A new award was instituted in 1985 to recognize the activities of that heretofore unsung group of people known as SF convention partiers. Every award must, of course, have a nickname; the official nickname of the Award for Excellence in Science Fiction Convention Partying is the "Tucker". The first two years awards were sponsored and administered by the St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid Committee, and subsequent awards are administered by a related group. The awards will be nominated and voted on by members of Czarkon 5 (St. Louis' "adult relaxicon"), and the rest of SF party fandom via convention parties and any fanzines or SF Club newsletters willing to reprint this nomination form and/or the final ballot. ****This includes SF-LOVERS**** There are 3 awards: 1 each for SF Professional (writer, editor, or dealer), SF Artist, and SF Fan. Couples or groups are eligible as a single nominee. Any SF convention partier over the age of 21 is eligible, but nominees this year must be willing to attend the presenting convention if they win. Winners are not eligible for re-nomination in any category for a period of 5 years; losing nominees are eligible again the following year. The 1985 and 1986 winners were: 1985 1986 Special Grand Master Award: Wilson "Bob" Tucker SF Professional: Bob Cornett & Kevin Randle Glen Cook SF Artist: David Lee Anderson Dell Harris SF Fan: Glen Boettcher & Dick Spelman Nancy Mildebrandt The design of the physical award is a full bottle of Beam's Choice bourbon mounted on a base; the base has a plaque with the year, award name, and the winner's name. An instant tradition was begun in 1985: the winners received their awards full, but took them home from the convention empty (many self- sacrificing volunteers helped empty the awards). To nominate someone for a 1987 Tucker Award, write their name (both names for a couple) and address opposite the applicable category on the form below, detach it along the dotted line, and mail it to TUCKER NOMINATIONS, PO Box 1058, St. Louis, MO 63188. Photocopied, hand-printed, or typed equivalents of the nomination form are acceptable. If you don't know a nominee's address, and don't think the Award Committee will either, if possible please include on the back of the form or a separate sheet the name of a prominent SF person (whose address we CAN determine) who may know the nominee and might be able to give us an address. Your own name and address are requested, but not required, to further assist in tracking down unknown-to-us nominees. [Giving us your address will assure that you are mailed a final ballot, too.] Network people may also send electronic facsimiles to "zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA" ---------------NOMINATING DEADLINE IS 1 JUNE 1987----------------- 1987 TUCKER AWARD NOMINATIONS PRO TUCKER name:___________________________________________________ address: __________________________________________________ ARTIST TUCKER name: __________________________________________________ address: __________________________________________________ FAN TUCKER name: __________________________________________________ address: __________________________________________________ YOUR NAME: __________________________________________________ address: __________________________________________________ ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Mar 87 1042-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #82 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Mar 87 1042-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #82 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 82 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Mar 87 22:57:23 EST From: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: About Boskone Rumors.... Hi, I have seen some Boskone XXV literature, and have discovered the following about Boskone XXV 1) They will be de-emphasizing the film show show. 2) " " " " " huckster's room. 3) They will be toning down the convention suite. These are facts taken from Boskone XXV fliers. Here is the rumor that I have heard: Alcohol will not be allowed at open parties. I am personally not to sanguine on items 1-3, but I feel that removing alcohol from open parties would be a good thing. My perception of Boskone, and some other people's feelings about Boskone are as follows: "It's a great con, the art show astounds, but there is really too much of a keg party aspect to the convention." I believe that banning alcohol at open parties is a good idea, and I was wondering if this was actually going to be the policy. Considering the huge crush of attendees this year, I don't think that anyone would miss the "party animals" that show up now. Matthew Saroff ------------------------------ Date: 4 Mar 87 17:25:06 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes: >rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (Rich Kolker) writes: >>Still, there are a group of regionals with a long history, Boskone >>among them, which I think do have an obligation to serve the total >>spread of the science fiction spectrum because of their major >>regional status. >> ... So this is my point. The major regionals do have an >>obligation to cover the full spectrum of sf. ... >As far as I can see, you haven't said WHY these cons have this >obligation. > >Suppose I hold a party, and I make it an open party, and lots of >people come and we have a great time. I do it again, and we have a >great time again. And so on. But the party gets bigger, and a lot >of the people I first invited stop coming, because one particular >group, that's advertised the party to lots of people of their >specialized interests, has grown too large and loud to ignore. The >people I want to hold a party for/with no longer feel comfortable, >and can no longer talk about the things they're interested in >because they're constantly being interupted by people who aren't >interested in the same things. Is there any such thing as an "obligation to fandom" (as an amorphus whole). I don't know. I always felt it when I ran conventions. I would never argue with Boskone (or any other con) having the right to do anything they want, including limiting programming to left handed non-swimming writers of blank sf verse (no fantasy). Perhaps it is unfair to put the load of all of fandom on a major regional that became that partially due to the fact it's been around longer. I felt the same way about Disclave (Washington, DC) when I started attending and found out programming began at 2pm and ended at 4pm (that's changed now). I suppose part of my problem with Boskone's "focusing" is that I don't believe they're doing it for the reasons they say they are (or at least not totally for those reasons). Any NESFANS on the net that can give us some of the "behind the scenes" on this? Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) ------------------------------ Date: 4 Mar 87 17:32:27 GMT From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report becky@sq.UUCP writes: > A Con that has that strong a rep has a responsibility to advertise > changes they're making in their programming goals. Toronto's only > local con (boo hoo) is really a party con - or it's seemed so in > the past, at any rate - but its advertisements include info about > wonderful programming ideas, and interesting, thought-provoking > guests... Although I would like to see a Toronto-regional con > that caters to people who (can read) enjoy good programming (other > than the back-rubbing seminar), Ad Astra has every right to be > whatever they want to be. I just wish they'd advertise what > they're all about, rather than trying to bring people to a con > they might very well not enjoy. I have to disagree with your comment about Ad Astra being primarily a party con. I and several friends, none of whom can really be considered major-league party goers (one of them has a phobia about drunks which extends even to the quietest of them), attended last years Ad Astra and had a fine time. They had a number of interesting guests, including Roger Zelazny (GOH), Steven Brust and Guy Kaye. I actually found more panels of literary interest (to me personally) there than at this year's Boskone, and left feeling that the Toronto fen were, in general, friendly, relaxed people. I still feel it was well worth the trip, in spite of the fact that we drove (about 8 hrs), and would be going again this year if I weren't saving for Conspiracy. Next time I'll probably take a plane though -- four fans in a car with no air conditioning in July for 8 hrs. can get VERY strange. Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy ARPANET: kathy@LL-XN.ARPA or kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU phone: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211 ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 87 17:31:16 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Boston Worldcon loses hotel! It was announced on Delphi last night that the hotel that was to host the Boston Worldcon has cancelled their contract, so the Worldcon currently is without a home. That hotel was the same hotel that hosted Boskone this year, and evidently the problems at Boskone caused it to reconsider its policy of having Cons. That's all I have now, I'll pass on more details when I get them. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 87 11:25:17 GMT From: phm@stl.stc.co.uk (Peter Mabey) Subject: Re: Request for Worldcon Info 6103014@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Harold Feld) writes: > Does anyone know what hotel Conspiracy (Worldcon '87) will be in? The Convention will be centred on the Brighton Conference Centre: that's where the registration desk will be located, and the major events held. This is adjacent (and attached) to the Brighton Metropole hotel - however that hotel is fully booked; there's been a ballot for rooms, but I've not yet heard any results. A couple of reminders: dates are 27 August - 1 September 1987. Attending rates go up on 1 April to 38 pounds UK, 65 dollars US (elsewhere please send equivalent of sterling rate); children (8 to 14) half attending rate. In latest PR, the Committee appeal for help in locating members for whom they don't have correct addresses - anyone who knows how to locate any of them please write to Conspiracy '87, PO Box 43, Cambridge CB1 3JJ, U.K. Donald J. Bailey Michael Banbury Harry Beckwith Janet Beckwith Alex Boster Judith Bratton John J. Cleary Suzanne Cornwell Mandy Dakin (UK) Dennis Etchison Michael Katt R. K. Lewis Michael McIntyre Shaw Ostermann (UK) Katherine Pott William E. Priester Kathryn L. Pritz T. K. F. Weisskopf Eileen Wight Marjorie Wight Marv Wolfman Linda L. Wright (All last heard of in USA, except where noted.) Regards, Peter Mabey phm@stl mcvax!ukc!stl!phm +44-279-29531 x3596 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 03:36:33 GMT From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report Rich, I'm not sure what reasons you think NESFA has, and what mysterious hidden reasons you suspect, as to why they want to shrink Boskone and how they plan to do so. But I'll take a stab at saying what *I* think are the causes/reasons. First a disclaimer. While I'm a NESFA subscribing member, and have been staff at the last several Boskones, I live in LA and obviously don't make it to NESFA/Boskone meetings. What I'm about to write is totally my opinion, which I think is derived from a reasonable amount of information, but which in no way should be considered to be officially representing NESFA. I haven't gotten my Instant Message (the NESFA clubzine) with the debriefing yet, but based on what I heard at the con, actual, warm bodies at the con, attendence, was over 4200 people. Read that again. 4200 people. Plus. There've only been about 5 or six *Worldcons* which were larger. And worldcons are stretched out over a week, and at most a group will run one only every nine years or so, and they'll have 2-3 years to get ready for it. Boskone is held every year, by the same group of non-paid volunteers. Rich, I know that you've run cons (and the few that I was able to make were run quite well too). But how big was the largest August Party? Was it even over a thousand? And I'm pretty sure it wasn't over 1500. And what happened to them? Well, one reason I heard was committee burnout; it was getting too big, and it was too much work. And those, definitely for the most part, and perhaps ever, weren't 1/4 the size of the last Boskone. And worse, the Boskone numbers keep increasing. This year's attendance was up at least 11% over last year's. It's been growing steadily for several years. So just the sheer size causes the following; 1) More work each year, up to the point that it's now almost like running a worldcon every year. 2) Fewer facilities that can hold it. Right now, there are exactly two hotels in the city of Boston that can handle a con the size of Boskone. 3) More problems. Even assuming that the twit population stays at the same percentage of members as the numbers go up (an assumption that I'm not totally sure of; I think it goes up myself), an increase in size means that there are just more people running around who have IQs roughly equal to room temperature and about as much sense of responsibility. So the con is just too darn big. Clearly something needs to be done to cut down the size, or else it'll collapse of its own weight. The current size is a crisis point, due to various logistical problems involving hotel facilities and the Hynes renovation. NESFA has decided that certain things at Boskone just aren't as important to them as other things. Given the size and rate of growth, Boskone can't be all things to all fans any more. The hope is presumbably that if certain things aren't available at the con, some people will stop coming. Given a choice between keeping what the people working on the con are most interested in, and what they're not as interested in but which appear to draw people, guess which'll be the most likely to be cut out. My own theory is that Boskone and NESFA are victims of their own success; to a degree, Boskone is *too* well run; people know that there won't be massive screwups and the like, and the feel of the con is consistent from year to year. I'd expect to see an attendance limit placed on the con in the next few years if attendance doesn't start shrinking on its own. Which I personally doubt that it will. tyg ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 87 20:25:21 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: AUGUST PARTY puts on a relaxicon Absolutely, positively, without-a-doubtly NOT T H E A U G U S T P A R T Y Seriously folks if you've read/heard about past August Parties (1975-85) this isn't it...that's too much work What the old crew is doing is putting on a relaxicon. Only one piece of formal programming, a lot of informal fun, munchies and fen (fans). WHERE: The MARIOTT COURTYARD in New Carrollton, MD WHEN: July 31, August 1 & 2 (most of the concom's arriving Friday night) WHAT: The one piece of programming is the traditional Gene Roddenberry phone call, where Gene will fill us in on ST:TNG and whatever else we want to ask. Saturday, we'll have discount tickets for Wild World, a water and amusement park with water slides, wave pool, rides, a good wooden roller coaster, etc. Whatever else happens will be spur of the moment, around the pool and jacuzzi. There are usually some computers and video machines. A bunch of folks will probably drive up to Baltimore for Photon. ADDRESS (see below) QUESTIONS? Email me. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 87 17:33:27 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) writes: >I have to disagree with your comment about Ad Astra being primarily >a party con. I and several friends, none of whom can really be >considered major-league party goers (one of them has a phobia about >drunks which extends even to the quietest of them), attended last >years Ad Astra and had a fine time. With all the pro-Ad Astra comments I've been getting from various different places, I'm beginning to suspect my only trouble with Ad Astra is that I've been around too long. I mean, I knew that one of the unpleasantries was the mass of yucky-fen who know me because we all go to the same parties... Maybe I've been prevented from seeing the good side of the con because the bad side always comes to talk to me... (how come fame doesn't come with fortune? SIGH!=:^) IN ANY CASE, if any of you netters can come up for a visit, please do. One of the GoHs this year is CJCherryh, and both the dealers' room and programming schedule are already filled-up. It will be held the weekend of June 12-14 at the Howard Johnson's Airport Hotel, Toronto. AD ASTRA will also be this year's "Canvention", which means a bunch of Canadian-sf awards and, apparently, some French programming. I'll post part of the flyer if I can ever remember to, but you can always mail me (or several other T.O. people) for info. It's bound to be fun, because after all I'LL be there ;^) Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 87 19:16:28 GMT From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) Subject: Re: Boston Worldcon loses hotel! chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >It was announced on Delphi last night that the hotel that was to >host the Boston Worldcon has cancelled their contract, so the >Worldcon currently is without a home. That hotel was the same >hotel that hosted Boskone this year, and evidently the problems at >Boskone caused it to reconsider its policy of having Cons. That's >all I have now, I'll pass on more details when I get them. Negotiations are still going on between Noreascon III, the 1989 Boston Worldcon, and the Sheraton Boston Hotel and Towers, so I would not jump to any conclusions. In any case, Noreascon III currently has space blocked at at least four other Boston hotels. It has also reserved an additional 82,000 square feet of space at the Hynes Convention Center, which would be enough to more than make up for all function space in the Sheraton Boston if it turns out to be unavailable. Donald E. Eastlake, III +1 617-492-8860 ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 09:03:28 PST (Thursday) From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: XCON Shoshanna writes: >If the X-fen are left out in the cold with nowhere to go for their >X-activities, that is a sign that they should take some >responsibilty for themselves. (X-Con 1, I can see it now...) Well, here it is, but it's 11, not 1. XCON 11(Jun11-14) Olympia Spa &Resort, Oconomowoc,WI. GOH: Hal Clement, AGOH: Erin Mckee, FGOH: Jan Howard Finder (the Wombat). Info: XCON 11, Box 7, Milwaukee, WI 53201. You asked for it, you got it! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 17 Mar 87 0835-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #83 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Mar 87 0835-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #83 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 17 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 83 Today's Topics: Books - Eddings & Gibson (8 msgs) & Hogan & Holland & Lee & Martin & Pangborn & Zimmer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Mar 87 21:50:53 GMT From: watnot!jrmartin Subject: The Belgariad I am a big fan of the Belgariad and I am looking forward to the new series by David Eddings. It seems that everybody loves that book. I'd really look forward to hearing from anybody who really enjoyed the book and would like to talk about some of the things that are left unexplained in it. I would also be more than happy to hear anything else about when the new series is coming out. JRM ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 87 23:05:56 GMT From: reed!soren@rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen) Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >I think Dune is the single most embarrassing Hugo-plus-Nebula pick >ever, even worse than Neuromancer. Okay. I'll bite. What did you not like about *Neuromancer*? I'm curious. I really enjoyed it. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 87 23:44:39 GMT From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books soren@reed.UUCP (Soren Petersen) writes: >tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >>I think Dune is the single most embarrassing Hugo-plus-Nebula pick >>ever, even worse than Neuromancer. > >Okay. >I'll bite. >What did you not like about *Neuromancer*? > >I'm curious. I really enjoyed it. All style and no substance. It was like the late sixties all over again. A few weeks ago, I was reading Aldiss' excellent critical history of science fiction, "Trillion Year Spree", and got to the discussion of Samuel Delaney and his imitators in the 1960's and 1970's. Aldiss' conclusions about the reasons for style coming to overwhelm substance in some branches of SF seemed very clearly accurate to me, and made me think, without any explicit references, of the new cyberpunk revolution and Gibson in particular. I then turned to a footnote in the back and saw Aldiss citing Neuromancer as a modern example of the same kind of thing! This is the sort of independent replicability of observations I was talking about when I referred before to objective factors entering into judgments of literary merit. But this is not any sort of evidence, and in fact I will not try to convince you, that the book is bad. I'll just tell you why I don't like Gibson and similar writers. Setting and its sister style are paramount at the expense of plot, character, and theme. I grow impatient with stories containing descriptive passages of beauty which obviously involved much work and rewriting, yet little attention to the actual personalities of the characters the book is about. Given Gibson's lack of any consistent or coherent theme, there is little to commend in the book except the language, and that just doesn't hold my interest in the face of the weakness of other story elements. In addition, most of the plot elements are artificial. An even better example (largely because fresher in my mind) is Gibson's collaboration with Michael Swanwick, "Dogfight", which I thought was a dreadful story. Rather than have a personality conflict of some sort between the male and female leads, G&S introduce tension into the situation by subjecting the poor girl to a "mind-lock" that prevents her from having sex. I could go on, but this god-damned editor keeps crashing and the sysops here never act on my bug reports and I don't feel like typing in the tail of the article for the third time. Make that fourth; it just crashed again. In summary, Neuromancer is long on style but short on content, and anti-humanistic in the artificial and contrived way its characters relate. Tim Maroney {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 87 20:29:16 GMT From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books (Neuromancer) ******POSSIBLE SPOILER HERE****** Gibson himself (in an interview in Rolling Stone, I believe) says the purpose of Neuromancer was to show people succumbing to the myriad ways available for them to screw up. I think he did this very well. Also, I found the lack of characterization in the context of this book useful.The idea was to set a mood where nobody knew about or truly understood anyone else. The world was one in which, sadly, people were alienated from each other, but didn't really WANT to be (unfortunately, this sounds a little too much like the real world). People (in the book, Case) try to return to human values, but are drowned in synthetic, disposable technology and fail. Notice that almost all of the color in the book was not color at all; it was black and white, silver, platinum, chrome (especially black chrome), mirrors, black mirrors, and all sorts of metallic hues. The characters and the reader are blind. They cannot reach common understanding, and destiny just kind of blows them along. If, when you read SF, you want every detail spelled out for you, leaving nothing for your own imagination and contemplation, then I can see why you dislike Neuromancer, but the book has a lot of relevant messages and food for thought in it. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 87 17:45:55 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Dune, Necromancer, and objective literary criticism > tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) >> soren@reed.UUCP (Soren Petersen) >>> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) >>>I think Dune is the single most embarrassing Hugo-plus-Nebula >>>Ipick ever, >>>even worse than Neuromancer. >>Okay. I'll bite. What did you not like about *Neuromancer*? >>I'm curious. I really enjoyed it. > All style and no substance. It was like the late sixties all over > again. [...etc, etc...] I disagree only slightly with Tim's evaluation. Though, I'd be interested in what Tim thought of "True Names", if he saw it. Much better in my opinion despite the slight computer implausibilities. But much as I agree that the "cyberpunk" genre in general and Neuromancer in particular are overrated, that's not what I really wanted to say, which is related instead to this: > Aldiss' conclusions about the reasons for style coming to > overwhelm substance in some branches of SF seemed very clearly > accurate to me, and made me think, without any explicit > references, of the new cyberpunk revolution and Gibson in > particular. I then turned to a footnote in the back and saw > Aldiss citing Neuromancer as a modern example of the same kind of > thing! This is the sort of independent replicability of > observations I was talking about when I referred before to > objective factors entering into judgments of literary merit. As I said before, I think that many people are confusing "objective" with "true of many people". Even things that are true of ALL people are not necessarily objective truths. Take "coldness" as an example. Now temperature is an objective thing. Any observer who can read a thermometer must, in principle, see the same thing. But whether it is cold outside is an inherently subjective thing. Even if all the people you know think it is cold, there might in principle be a member of the polar bear club (or a real live polar bear for that matter) who would think that it was merely pleasantly cool, or maybe even that it was warm. Things which are "measured" by sentient beings like humans, audiences for literature, maybe even polar bears, are subjective. Things that are "measured" by nonsentient things like thermometers, voltmeters, and other things that in principle give the same results to any sentient observer are objective. I'm aware that the two groups overlap to some extent, but I still think that literary merit is so strongly subjective that I have problems understanding how anyone would think otherwise. Again, this is not to say that there are not elements of literary merit that are not widespread. This is only to say that no standard of literary merit (and thus nobody's idea of what's "good" and "bad" literature) is objectively better than any other. Looping back, this is, by the way, why I liked Tim's review of Neuromancer, apart from the fact that I somewhat agree with his conclusion. Tim explained what was important TO HIM in the book, and where it failed HIS STANDARDS. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 86 20:32:39 pst From: trwrb!davstoy!dav@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (David L. Markowitz) Subject: Cyberpunk My roommate asks: How would you define Cyberpunk? I thought you all might like a shot at that. David L. Markowitz Rockwell International sdcsvax!ucivax!csuf!davstoy!dav ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 08:20:46 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Cyberpunk >How would you define Cyberpunk? Everyone who wants to be William Gibson but can't be. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 18:06:54 GMT From: mapper!ksand@rutgers.edu (Kent Sandvik) Subject: Re: Cyberpunk >How would you define Cyberpunk? Whopee! Cyberpunk is computers, cyberspace (where young hackers dwell today) and drugs, a kind of hard-living people in future, japanese marketing, neon-lights, multinational companies and total pollution. The first step into "Cyberpunk" is of cource Gibson's "Neuromancer". What do you others feel , is cyberpunk the new new-wave of sf? Kent Sandvik UNISYS UNIX Support, SWEDEN PHONE: (46) 8 - 55 16 39 job, - 733 32 35 home ARPA: enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa UUCP: ksand@mapper.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 87 22:14:45 GMT From: osupyr!twd@rutgers.edu (The Twid) Subject: Re: Cyberpunk >How would you define Cyberpunk? Read this month's SPIN magazine for a in-depth discussion of cyberpunk. Todd Dailey twd@osupyr.uucp ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 08:02:09 PST (Friday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Nonaggression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy rlk@athena.mit.edu (Robert L Krawitz) writes: >One problem: the kamikaze trait would tend to get bred out of the >population. The folks who could avoid this kamikaze role would >tend to have more offspring. This has long been hashed out among biologists in order to explain the behavior of social animals such as bees, termites, and so on. The genes are the important aspect, not the individual animals. The willingness of these animals to sacrifice themselves can work in direct proportion the the degree of 'relatedness' between the kamikaze and those he protects. This is why worker bees are so willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of the hive. They are assuring the survival of many closely related gene sets, and so the genes get the immortality they are after (hopeless exaggeration on my part, the genes actually want nothing, but the statistics of the thing work out. Ask Stephen Jay Gould, who figured this out a few years back). Therefore, the kamikaze tactic can make good evolutionary sense (just like it can for bees). Kurt ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 87 09:23:33 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin wwd@rruxg.UUCP writes: >A contrary voice: I read it in the light of her short story "The >Ones Who Walked Away From Omelas" in which we are presented with a >seemingly ideal utopia, but which bears some hidden oppression. The >anarchist world is flawed in that people are not free to follow >intellectual pursuits because of the economic struggle they all >must face for survival. The 'hero' of the novel tries to resolve >this but only gains rejection because of the prejudices of his >fellow 'anarchists'. While we're on anarchists and not quite ideal utopias, I would recommented "Floating Worlds" by Ceceilia Holland. Quite intersting, especially because C.H. is primarily a historical novelist who doesn't give a fig about romance. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 20:33:42 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Tanith Lee's "Flat Earth" series aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry) writes: > Tanith Lee has a good series going, I have heard it referred to as > the flat earth series. First book is Night's Master. Short, > loosely connected stories but good background. Next is the best: > Death's Master. I think Delusion's Master was next but after that > it is starting to go downhill. I'll give a contrasting viewpoint. I think that Delirium's Mistress (the one that follows Delusion's Master, and the latest one I've seen) is the best of the series so far (a close second to Night's Master). However the individual books are rated, the series as a whole is double-plus-good. The feel of the series is that Lee is sort of taking you on a guided tour of her "Flat Earth" world, pointing out places and events of interest to the reader, and providing a stream of commentary by turns funny, moving, tragic, but always interesting. It has a very strong interactive feel to it... Lee is manifested here as a GREAT storyteller. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 87 19:26:46 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: _Tuf Voyaging_ by G.R.R. Martin This book is a collection of stories about a man who acquires a mobile space-based biowarfare laboratory, and what he does with it. It has a strong ZPG subtext, and gets somewhat preachy at times, but is a good read nevertheless. It is hard to put my finger on just why I like this book so much. I suspect it is because in some ways the protagonist, Haviland Tuf, is a sort of Lt. Columbo analog. Columbo comes across as a fuzzy minded slob, but under this appearance he has a quick mind and a keen eye. Haviland Tuf comes across as an effete incompetent, but when the going gets tough, Tuf gets going. (You didn't imagine for a moment I'd skip that pun, did you?) In essence, what caught my interest was the continual question of "what does Tuf have up his sleeve THIS time?" And Martin provides interesting answers every time. I recommend the book highly. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 20:03 EST From: WELTY RICHARD P Subject: Post-Holocaust Works Someone may already have mentioned this (as arpa sf-lovers is a wee bit behind right now), but I can recommend (without reservation) the works of Edgar Pangborn, many of which are set on a post-holocaust earth (some of it near Albany, New York, where I currently live). There are two novels that I am aware of, "Davy" and "The Company of Glory" and many short stories, at least some of which were collected in paper back some years back. I have no idea if they are currently in print in any form. Richard Welty welty@ge-crd.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 87 01:39:26 est From: shades@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (Geoffrey Dov Cooper) Subject: paul zimmer's latest book From what I last heard, and admittedly this is a little hazy as I have not talked with Paul in a while, Paul finished up the 'prequel' book last October/November. With the normal publication lag this means that the book should be out sometime in the 4th quarter of this year. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 17 Mar 87 1011-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #84 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Mar 87 1011-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #84 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 17 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 84 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Terminology (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Mar 87 16:41:52 EST From: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: SCI-FI vs. S.F. Hi, I use SCI-FI most of the time for 2 reasons: 1) It helps me identify the fans who *DON'T* read the stuff. They are the ones who get really offended. 2) Everyone understands what SCI-FI is. Most of the world does not know what S.F. is. It is my belief that S.F. is a popular term because it is somewhat obscure. It defines an "in group" through jargon. Matthew G. Saroff ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 6 Mar 1987 10:57:02-PST From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Terminology Normally, I would refrain from joining in a discussion of terminology, especially when it's defining "science fiction" versus "fantasy." Several noters have been trying to define "SF." To my mind, this is Science Fiction. Someone mentioned the phrase "Science Fantasy," which is bound to stir the soup of Science Fiction/Fantasy elements. When I'm trying to define science fiction versus fantasy, "science fantasy" seems like an oxymoron. I use the amount of scientific versus non-scientific speculation for my personal yardstick. Science fiction is based on technology and the physical laws we recognize in our known universe. Fantasy involves any powers or physical laws that are not known and recognized by scientists, like magic, ESP, and so forth. In either case, obviously, the author must be internally consistent. By this definition, teleportation can be used in either genre. If teleportation is achieved with a machine or device of some sort, it's science fiction. If teleportation is a form of magic (like a gem or spell), or through telekenesis, then it qualifies as fantasy. I'm not too particular, though, and I can name plenty of books that straddle the two sub-genres. Shoshanna asked if we could think of fantasy fiction with spaceships in it. I recommend "The Ship Who Sang" (by Anne McCaffrey? -- impending senility!). The main character was a mixture of human/machine, which seems fairly fantastic to me. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 87 13:36:57 PST From: Chuck Boeheim Subject: Fantasy and Science Fiction krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) writes: >I've been thinking that perhaps we're describing a spectrum of >stories. If "pure" fantasy is Primary Red and "pure" science >fiction is Primary Blue, then we can have a smooth shift of >Red-through-Magenta-to-Blue, and we should be able to make note of >examples at each extreme to go with your list of stories more or >less at the Magenta mix. I like that image! It also suggests that the problem with classifying stories is the same as the problem that astronomers originally had with classifying stars: since we are all 'coming from' different directions, we each perceive stories as red or blue shifted by doppler effect! Chuck Boeheim, Stanford University GQ.CTB@Stanford (bitnet) GQ.CTB@Stanford.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1987 11:07 PST From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Re: SF vs Sci-Fi - A Meta-logical Comment In "Triton" Samuel Delaney presents a discussion of meaning and function of phrases like "Science Fiction" which should be read by any who want to argue about "SF" vs "Sci-Fi". This is in Appendix B ( Some informal Remarks toward the Modular Calculus, Part Two, sections I thru IV). The discussion of "meta-logic" in the story is also somewhat relevant. My model of what is said is that the "meaning" does not name a set of alternatives but merely indicates the central position in a space of measurements. Thus SF is not a collection of stories with some property. Instead it points out some properties some of which are likely to be possessed by an "SF" work. In this view the discussion has an entertainment value and is a work of fiction in its own right. I look forward to reading some truly outrageous ideas in the future. Here are some provocations: (1) Clarke's Law: Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguiahable from magic. (2)"Forbidden Planet" is clearly Shakespeare's "Tempest" minus the humor. (3)"The Glass Bead Game"/"Magister Ludi" by Hesse is a future history but "great literature" and so not "SF". (4)Before the pulps, "SF" was written by all authors without it being labelled as such. (5)SF is a metric which measures the size of the belief that has to suspended to read something. The unit is "mind-boggles per chapter". By the Way: I have only seen the UK, Corgi Edition of "Triton" (1977). It is possible that it was published in the US under a different name in the US. I would like to hear what people have made of Delaney's books - they get under my skin and itch. Dick Botting, Comp Sci Dept, Cal State, San Bernardino paaaaar@calstate.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 87 00:10:17 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Justifying Fantasy holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes: >Isn't it sort of futile to try to fit explanations of "why dragons >flame, and how they fly," and "why unicorns only eat virgins" and >"why there could be centaurs" and all this claptrap, into some sort >of pseudo-scientific framework? Well, I hate to burst your bubble, bruce, but while Science Fiction can always fall back on the facts, Fantasy can't, which means that to succeed it must be internally consistent. Thinks which 'can't' happen, must be explained somehow (unless you're writing for kids, and the kids will see through it anyway). Mike Resnick recently published his first Fantasy, Stalking the Nightmare. And, according to Mike, his last, because trying to get Fantasy right is MUCH harder than getting SF right -- you don't have any basis to start from, so you have to put it all together yourself. You have to put it all together, because if it doesn't all come together, it all falls apart. This is important in ANY fiction. CAlling it Fantasy doesn't change the rules, it just switches them around a bit. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 87 08:41:48 GMT From: uhccux!todd@rutgers.edu (The Perplexed Wiz) Subject: Re: Terminology and Genres wenn@gandalf.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn) writes: >ago. The case can be made that SF is not really a genre (like >Westerns, ... put-your-favorite-non-sf-word-here) mode. I know >I've read (or seen) SF western, SF romance, SF action, SF horror, >SF comedy, SF satire, SF > [... list of other SF subtypes went here ...] ... >distopias/utopias. Although these are by their nature SF, one can >also write them in a Descriptive (...) mode. Examples that spring >to mind are "Earth This is a good point but I think that SF is indeed a "genre." My dictionary says that "genre" means: a category of artistic, musical, or literary composition characterized by a particular style, form, or content. The linking factor of all SF (and Fantasy too) is that the reader is asked to be willing to suspend disbelief a bit further than in other types of fiction. The reader is asked to accept premises that are beyond what we normally consider "reality." The reader is asked a big "What If." "What if faster than light travel were possible?" "What if you could move through time?" "What if you could ride a winged flying dragon." "What if the Roman Empire never fell?" Todd Ogasawara U. of Hawaii Computing Center UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!nosc!uhccux!todd ARPA: uhccux!todd@nosc.ARPA INTERNET: todd@UHCC.HAWAII.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 18:36:03 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: SCI-FI vs. S.F. SAROFF@UMass.BITNET writes: > I use SCI-FI most of the time for 2 reasons: >1) It helps me identify the fans who *DON'T* read the stuff. They >are the ones who get really offended. Um, I think I'm offended by that... *grin* I read a LOT of SF. I read even more Fantasy. I don't read Sci-Fi. I don't allow the use of sci-fi in OtherRealms. The people who get offended by the term sci-fi are NOT the people who don't read it, but the people who don't appreciate the people who don't read it trying to put us in our place. sci-fi is a pejorative used by people to make sure the genre ghetto doesn't break free and move into their neighborhood. >2) Everyone understands what SCI-FI is. Most of the world does not >know what S.F. is. Sci-fi are bad movies made with rubber monsters in Japan. Sci-fi are bad movies made in America in the 50's with plastic rockets and sparklers. Sci-fi is adolescent. Sci-fi is an unfair negative connotation foisted by the literati to protect themselves from facing reality. SF is a city on the west coast of our country. It is also a form of literature, a major publishing market and a way of life for many people. It does not have negative connotations, except to those who don't want to read it and are looking to justify their prejudices. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 87 20:16:46 GMT From: amdahl!krs (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: SCI-FI vs. S.F. chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >SAROFF@UMass.BITNET writes: >> I use SCI-FI most of the time for 2 reasons: >>1) It helps me identify the fans who *DON'T* read the stuff. They >>are the ones who get really offended. > >Um, I think I'm offended by that... *grin* > >I read a LOT of SF. I read even more Fantasy. I don't read >Sci-Fi. I don't allow the use of sci-fi in OtherRealms. The >people who get offended by the term sci-fi are NOT the people who >don't read it, but the people who don't appreciate the people who >don't read it trying to put us in our place. sci-fi is a >pejorative used by people to make sure the genre ghetto doesn't >break free and move into their neighborhood. Glad you *grin*ned, Chuqui! Ahh, what's in a name? Well, I use "Sci-Fi" when talking with anyone about the genre, and *especially* with novices (even pre-book-1 novices). They have their prejudices, so I try to talk 'em out of them and slip a good book into their hands (minds). I agree with you about who gets upset and why, I just can't climb into the boat with those of you sailing that course. SF is equivocal, so I only use it when I'm sure that the listener/reader knows I may be referring to non-scientific "Speculative Fiction" with or without referring to pure(?) "Science Fiction" at the same time. By my definition, you *do* read "Sci-Fi", doncha know?, but that says something positive about you, *to me*. I don't use "Sci-Fi" as a pejorative, Kristopher Stephens Amdahl Corporation 408-746-6047 amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue 10 Mar 87 15:15:45-CST From: Russ Williams Subject: SF terminology/classifications I think Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun is a great example of the hazy borderlines. The Pocket editions I have are even labeled differently: The Shadow of the Torturer is labeled Fantasy, The Claw of the Conciliator is Science Fantasy, The Sword of the Lictor and The Citadel of the Autarch are Science Fiction! If pressed, I'd call it Science Fantasy. Any other opinions? Russ ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 87 15:24:32 GMT From: uwmacc!oyster@rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster) Subject: Re: SCI-FI vs. S.F. Believe it or not, there actually *are* accepted ways of using abbreviations, both in speech and writing, which are not limited to the realm of science fiction (SF). These apparently mysterious techniques allow one to write (or speak) about all kinds of topics, from VLSI (very large-scale integration) to NESDIS, the National Environmental Satellite Data Information Service. This, of course, doesn't deal with the connotation problem, but I always just use the term in full whenever speaking about it (SF, that is ;-). In context, though, it's fairly easy to know the San Francisco SF from the Science Fiction SF. I *do*, however, dislike the Sci-Fi term, for reasons previously explained by people like Chuq. Joel Plutchak uucp: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster ARPA: oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu BITNET: plutchak@wiscmacc ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 23:03:20 GMT From: reed!tim@rutgers.edu (T. Russell Flanagan) Subject: Re: SCI-FI vs. S.F. SAROFF@UMass.BITNET writes: > I use SCI-FI most of the time for 2 reasons: >1) It helps me identify the fans who *DON'T* read the stuff. They >are the ones who get really offended. >2) Everyone understands what SCI-FI is. Most of the world dows not >know what S.F. is. Well, I don't know about the first argument, but I agree wholeheartedly with the second, and the "in group" argument especially. If you think about it, who is most likely to have developed the term "sci-fi" in the first place? Would it have been mundane media-types who's main purpose was to discredit the science fiction community and make fun of its members by using a name which none of them understood as refering to themselves? Not bloody likely. It seems obvious to me that the term "sci-fi" was developed by the science fiction community itself, or perhaps by a publisher somewhere. Given this fact, it seems that the only reason to abandon the term is simply because the mundane community at large has figured out what it means, and we want to be special. I, for one, use sci-fi to mean science fiction and s.f. to mean either speculative fiction of any type or, in more mundane surroundings, San Francisco. The same trend can be seen with the terms "trekkie" and the newer "trekker". Trekkies of course called themselves trekkies before anybody else did. Now that everybody and their grandmother knows what that term means, many prefer to call themselves "trekkers", so they can be special again. I am not amused. I get my only little "special" revenge by claiming that I have been a trekkie for a long time, since before this new-fangled "trekker" movement appeared, and I'll have no truck with that there younger generation...("Crazy kids..."). I know I'm only 21, but still, I have been a trekkie as long as I can remember, having watched the original episodes at the impressionable ages of 1, 2, and 3 (at least my dad SAYS I watched 'em). T. Russell Flanagan ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 21:33:11 GMT From: mtx5c!elb@rutgers.edu (Ellen Bart) Subject: Trekkie v.s. Trekker > The same trend can be seen with the terms "trekkie" and the newer > "trekker". Trekkies of course called themselves trekkies before > anybody else did. Now that everybody and their grandmother knows > what that term means, many prefer to call themselves "trekkers", > so they can be special again. Excuse me Russell, but many of us call ourselves Trekkers to distinguish ourselves from Star Trek groupies (Trekkies). Under this system a Trekker cares about the consistency between episodes, how the warp engines work, and what happened to the tribbles after the Klingons got them. We may care about whether the Enterprise is a Starship or Constitution Class ship, and we may watch the cartoons. A trekkie, however, may (or may not) care about those things, but for sure he/she cares about Nichelle Nichols's astrological sign and whether William Shatner got an 'A' in French in 9th grade. I am proud to be identified with the former group, and, while I believe the latter group has a right to exist, I certainly do not want to be identified with them. Got it? Ellen Bart ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 17 Mar 87 1035-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #85 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Mar 87 1035-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #85 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 17 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 85 Today's Topics: Books - McCaffrey (14 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Mar 87 18:15:10 GMT From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Pern anomaly The recent postings on inconsistencies in McCaffrey's Pern books (something as big as a dragon couldn't fly, etc.) left me thinking about the general realism in the series, and I realized there is what I would consider to be a rather large hole in the culture which has been defined on Pern. There seems to be no religious belief of any kind, unless you count a semi-religious veneration of dragon riders. Does anyone have an explanation to offer for this? I find the notion of an entire culture operating without any sort of religion unlikely, particularly in a group which has been reduced to an essentially feudal society. Comments? Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy ARPANET: kathy@LL-XN.ARPA or kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU phone: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 87 17:03:06 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Pern anomaly kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) writes: >The recent postings on inconsistencies in McCaffrey's Pern books >(something as big as a dragon couldn't fly, etc.) left me thinking >about the general realism in the series, and I realized there is >what I would consider to be a rather large hole in the culture >which has been defined on Pern. There seems to be no religious >belief of any kind, unless you count a semi-religious veneration of >dragon riders. > >Does anyone have an explanation to offer for this? I find the >notion of an entire culture operating without any sort of religion >unlikely, particularly in a group which has been reduced to an >essentially feudal society. Comments? I haven't made a habit of talking to people about Pern, but it does seem like a lot of people have commented on this "problem". Because I have never been religious and never felt any desire or need for religion, I tend to go overboard fighting for societies that lack that ingredient (though my own fiction tends to involve quite a bit of it...). The thing to remember about the people of Pern is that they are supposedly from our future. If our future involves humanity discarding religion altogether (which I agree is unlikely), then the people of Pern are descendants of a society that came by its answers without the use of religion. They may have forgotten how to do or explain a lot of things, but their teachings would never involve a "beyond our understanding", or a divine power or anything. Every generation would still grow with the idea that understanding their world is within their grasp - or, perhaps, was once within the grasp of the ancients. They don't have any stories about magic, either. The original colonists didn't encounter anything that they didn't believe that they could somehow come to understand. (These were people that bred dragons from wee little fire lizards.) When would the people of Pern develop a need for religion? I know. Totally off the wall, right? As above - Comments? Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 4 Mar 87 22:13:44 GMT From: jlhamilt@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Jennifer Lynn Hamilton) Subject: Re: Pern (dragons) and Re: fantasy and science fiction As I understand the "Flight of Dragons" (book) idea, dragons fly because one of the by-products of their digestive processes is hydrogen. (Admittedly, they eat some weird stuff...) I haven't worked out the math, but it seems that since hydrogen is a lot less dense than even hot air, the dragon doesn't need to change size dramatically depending on load. When not in flight, a special organ keeps the hydrogen pressurized to normal air density. With the addition of a special spark-generating device in the mouth, this allows the dragon to exhale flame. Jeni Hamilton ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 87 18:51:17 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Justifying Fantasy Isn't it sort of futile to try to fit explanations of "why dragons flame, and how they fly," and "why unicorns only eat virgins" and "why there could be centaurs" and all this claptrap, into some sort of pseudo-scientific framework? THIS IS FANTASY!!!! Too bad "Sci-Fi" writers like McCaffrey (and I use the term deliberately) don't come up with some truly original beasties. (I did like those fire lizards, though). No problem if you take Pern as fantasy - I'm sure she wrote it as such. SO why don't we all do the same. {seismo,hplabs,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 4 Mar 87 13:48:59 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: Pern (minor spoilers) Having read all the Pern books it seems to me that a turn on Pern is a hell of a lot shorter than an Earth year. I've nothing concrete to go on but after about 20 turns people like F'lar (horrible naming system they've got there, I still haven't worked out the rules for naming children yet) and Lessa have hardly aged, the only person showing signs of age is Robinton with his heart seizure. Yet at the same time Jaxom grows up remarkably quickly. Does this mean that people live longer and thus have a longer period of peak ability, does it mean that a turn is not as long as an earth year or does it just mean that McCaffrey didn't think it through properly :-) BTW if you haven't read it yet take a look at THE COLOUR OF MAGIC by Terry Pratchett. It contains a wonderful piss-take of McCaffrey's dragons as well as lots of other famous fantasy stories such as Lankhmar. It also contains such an OTT Deus Ex Machina that it has to be a joke (I think) Piers Cawley ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 21:17:29 GMT From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu (Capt. Gym Quirk) Subject: Re: Pern (dragons) and Re: fantasy and science fiction I beg to differ on the labeling of McCaffrey's Dragonriders books as "Hard Fantasy". At the risk of igniting another argument on just where the line between (No pun intended) S-F and fantasy lies, I fail to see just what makes D. of P. anything resembling fantasy. There is no magic at all (One MAJOR dividing point that I have), just a LOT of psionic activity. The society is obviously (Just read White Dragon) a transplanted Teran population (c. 2000+) which had undergone a mojor upheaval (Communications with earth were cut off rather abruptly.) I consider the series (Well, the Trilogy. The last two weren't that great) to be well in the middle of the road of S-F. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 20:43:31 GMT From: ee2131ab@ariel.unm.edu (Apollo) Subject: Re: Pern anomaly ddb@viper.UUCP (David Dyer-Bennet) writes: >I find the notion of an entire culture operating without any sort >of religion unlikely, particularly in a group which has been >reduced to an essentially feudal society.Comments? Well excuse me if I am wrong but doesn't the Weyr in some aspects act like a religion (Mainly in Book One). 1) Taking a Tariff for the Holds, 2) Interfering in Hold Politics I could be wrong (I will not be the first time). Mark Giaquinto ucbvax:gatech:unm-la:lanl}!unmvax!izar!cs2633bg cs2633bg@izar.UNM.EDU {ucbvax:gatech:unm-la:lanl}!unmvax!ariel!ee2131ab ee2131ab@ariel.UNM.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 87 02:17:19 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Pern anomaly kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) writes: >I find the notion of an entire culture operating without any sort >of religion unlikely, particularly in a group which has been >reduced to an essentially feudal society.Comments? 1) She may have had no particular interest in religion or writing about religion when she started the series. 2) She may have felt that might have died out or not been popular among colonists around the time Pern was settled and that subsequent conditions were not favorable for it's reestablishment. 3) She may have felt that neo-feudal society of Pern would somehow obviate the existence of religion or that the religious implulse would instead devolve on the dragons. 4) She may have been interested in working through the conflicts between rationalism, tradition and ignorance without the confusion of religion. 5) She may not have thought about it. All novels, even mega-series represent some dramatic condensation and focusing of interest. If you went back and looked at many novels analytically, I'm sure you'll find an amazing number of things that are simply left out either because the author wasn't interested, didn't have the space or assumed that what isn't explictly different will be filled in with the commonplace by the reader. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 4 Mar 87 13:18:24 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: Pern (dragons) and Re: fantasy and science fiction mouse@mcgill-vision.UUCP (der Mouse) writes: > daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >> I'm not too certain where to put the Dragonrider books, for >> instance. [...] Why? Critters the size and mass of dragons >> can't fly under earth conditions. >Sure they can. Read The Flight of Dragons, by Peter Dickson (or >was it Dickenson? Jayembee?), illus. Wayne Anderson. Sorry, don't >have a publisher or ISBN, but I'm pretty sure one of those last >names I gave is correct. > >Creatures as large as dragons can fly lighter-than-air (Dickenson >justifies this very convincingly); creatures as small as >fire-lizards can fly aerodynamically (the way Earth birds of that >size do). The justification is brilliant in the book you mentioned but I still haven't worked out how queen dragons (the largest type of dragon on Pern) are supposed to fly since they do not chew firestone. Then again he probably followed the old established rule If the facts don't conform to the theory, ignore'em It's still a damn good book though the best piece of 'hard' fantasy I ever read (come to that it's the *only* piece of 'hard' fantasy I ever read :-) Piers Cawley ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 87 18:42:05 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Pern anomaly ee2131ab@ariel.UUCP writes: >Well excuse me if I am wrong but doesn't the Weyr in >some aspects act like a religion (Mainly in Book One). > > 1) Taking a Tariff for the Holds, > 2) Interfering in Hold Politics > >I could be wrong (I will not be the first time). You have an interesting idea of what religion is, Mark... what you're describing above is a bureaucracy, not a belief. Plenty of institutions do that sort of thing. Feudal lords (probably the closest analogy, although not perfect). The U.N. The Federal Government. And so on. The Weyrs are not the object of prayer or any kind of worship. The Weyrpeople are not seen as supernatural in any way. They have no arcane or mysterious power; their power is strange and unavailable to most, but it's not a mystery. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 17:15:37 GMT From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu (Capt. Gym Quirk) Subject: Re: Pern anomaly sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >The Weyrs are not the object of prayer or any kind of worship. The >Weyrpeople are not seen as supernatural in any way. They have no >arcane or mysterious power; their power is strange and unavailable >to most, but it's not a mystery. I'm afraid that you're looking at them from the perspective of a post WHITE DRAGON observer. As I remember DRAGONFLIGHT (To be exact, WEYR SEARCH), most of the holders looked upon the Weyr as a vary mysterious entity. I mean LESSA was frightened out of her wits when she had to face her first hatching. It wasn't until F'Lar's reforms that the Weyr became the well known (usually) protective organization it is (will be? I have trouble dealing with the tense which should be present but happens in the future) now. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 08:18:42 GMT From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers) Subject: Re: Justifying Fantasy holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes: >Isn't it sort of futile to try to fit explanations of "why dragons >flame, and how they fly," and "why unicorns only eat virgins" and >"why there could be centaurs" and all this claptrap, into some sort >of pseudo-scientific framework? Oh, I guess it is futile, but it can be fun, too. At least I enjoy it. >THIS IS FANTASY!!!! > >No problem if you take Pern as fantasy - I'm sure she wrote it as >such. SO why don't we all do the same. Well, it's not hard SF, but I wouldn't call it fantasy. As others have pointed out, everything about the society does have a "SF" type explanation. Most SF involves SOME suspension of disbelief; in this case, you gotta sorta take for granted that dragons can fly. (At least I don't remember any explanations in the books themselves that might hold up.) But I don't think this is particularly worse than, say, FTL, which is definitely an SF, not fantasy, feature (though it may show up in fantasy). Bob Myers myers@tybalt.caltech.edu seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 20:50:32 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Pern anomaly cs2633ba@izar.UUCP (Capt. Gym Quirk) writes: >sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >>The Weyrs are not the object of prayer or any kind of worship. > > I'm afraid that you're looking at them from the perspective of a >post WHITE DRAGON observer. As I remember DRAGONFLIGHT (To be >exact, WEYR SEARCH), most of the holders looked upon the Weyr as a >very mysterious entity. I mean LESSA was frightened out of her >wits when she had to face her first hatching. Yes, but not because of any religious fear. She had just been snatched completely out of her accustomed life by people she had never heard of representing an organization she barely knew, her life-long goal had been achieved but she had had no chance to get used to the idea, and now she's dumped in a sandpit with a bunch of hysterical women without being told what is happening. Note that F'lar never said "hey, you're gonna watch a dragon hatch and you should try to be its friend," he just tossed her into the middle of the hatching. Don't forget that she saw several boys mangled by the hatchlings before Ramoth emerged, and Ramoth herself killed one of the girls immediately. Seems like being scared is a reasonable response... Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 87 20:05:58 GMT From: ee2131ab@ariel.unm.edu (Apollo) Subject: Re: Pern anomaly grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >>kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) writes: >>I find the notion of an entire culture operating without any sort >>of religion unlikely, particularly in a group which has been >>reduced to an essentially feudal society.Comments? > >3) She may have felt that neo-feudal society of Pern would somehow > obviate the existence of religion or that the religious implulse > would instead devolve on the dragons. > 5) She may not have thought about it. I find myself agreeing with the previous two arguements and would like to suggest another. 6) Maybe she thought about it but ignore it. Mark Giaquinto {ucbvax:gatech:unm-la:lanl}!unmvax!izar!cs2633bg cs2633bg@izar.UNM.EDU {ucbvax:gatech:unm-la:lanl}!unmvax!ariel!ee2131ab ee2131ab@ariel.UNM.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 17 Mar 87 1053-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #86 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Mar 87 1053-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #86 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 17 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 86 Today's Topics: Television - Doctor Who (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Mar 87 10:01:12 EST From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: doctor who update (a little late sorry!) It happened that Michael Grade didn't like the things that Colin Baker was saying about him so he decided to fire him but first he asked Colin if he would do one more story with a regeneration. Colin told him that he couldn't fire him becuase HE QUIT and stormed out, saying he would never play the Doctor again. John Nathan-Turner and Michael Grade did not quit, those were just rumors. The BBC is thinking of hiring Steven Spielberg to do the next season and if the ratings still don't improve the show will probably be cancelled. The new Doctor will be played by Sylvester McCoy who also appeared in "Time Bandits" and "The Wizard". ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 87 11:37:51 EST From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Planet of the Daleks xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes: > Oh I have another question here about Dr. Who series. I >watched one episode about the Daleks(This time I spell it >right??!!). However, it did not finish at all. It is about the >Daleks on a planet with a huge refrigeration unit(large enough to >freeze an ocean??) The Daleks used some kind of bacteria to attack >humans. The episode was cut half way. The last scene I saw was >when the bacteria was released prematurely by an accident. Can >anyone tell me how did that episode end? The name of the episode was Planet of the Daleks. **SPOILER**, for what it's worth: The bacteria was released by Wester, one of the invisible Spiridons, the natives of the planet. It was released in a sealed laboratory, trapping the immunized Daleks in there forever, as the rest of the Daleks had not been immunizd. The Doctor and two of the Thals manage to enter the Dalek base in disguise. They are discovered, and are chased down to the bottom level by the Daleks. They get into the refrigeration area, set up a barricade, and enter the huge cavern where an army of 10,000 Daleks is in deep-freeze. They go about searching for big cracks in the walls to put explosives in. Meanwhile, Jo Grant and another Thal get down there by way of a shaft to the surface that they had escaped up earlier. They arrive just in time to see the barricade breached by the Daleks. The Thal throws the bomb he was carrying at them, bringing down the walls and ceiling on them. They enter the cavern and join the others. Meanwhile a Supreme Dakek has arrived on the planet and takes charge of the operations there. He orders the Dalek army to be revived, and the refrigeration unit is shut off. The Doctor accidentally drops the bomb off the catwalk he's on, into the awakening Daleks. He promptly jumps down, retrieves it, tosses it up to the Thal leader, and climbs out using a Dalek as a ladder. They set the explosives and exit via a spiral ramp to the surface that was meant for the Dalek army to exit by. The explosion causes an eruption on a nearby ice volcano, flooding the entire Dalek base with sub-freezing water (this is a very weird planet). The Thals use the Dalek Supreme's spaceship to get back to their own planet, and the Doctor and Jo rush back to the TARDIS being pursued by the angry Supreme Dalek and his aides. **END SPOILER** The story was meant as the sequel to the preceding story, Frontier in Space, but the continuity was very slim. I have only seen bits and pieces of the episode, but I have read the novelization. The Daleks were originally humanoid beings known as the Kaleds, but genetic mutation caused by a thousand-year war with the Thals was turning them into these shriveled green things. The travel casings were designed by Davros, who foresaw the mutation, but he induced further mutation that caused the Daleks, as he named them, to have no morals or compassion. (Genesis of the Daleks, 1975). Chip Olson UMass-Amherst ------------------------------ Date: 9 March 1987, 11:41:11 EST From: Brent Hailpern Subject: robots and Dr. Who xia@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu (2/13/87) asked why all the computers in Dr. Who were evil. The responses pointed out that most of Eugene's examples really were problems with people, not the robots. This is true but an even better counter-example is K-9. Not only is K-9 not evil, but during his two incarnations with the Dr., he often pilots the TARDIS. K-9 is knowledgable on all subjects and seems to know more about the TARDIS and space-time navigation than does the Dr. Another sometimes friendly robot is Kamelion, who when not under the Master's influence, is friendly and helpful. Brent Hailpern bth@ibm.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 87 12:48:00 -0800 From: Jim Hester To: xia@a.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Dr. Who and the Computers You are certainly correct about machine-paranoia being a prevalent SF theme in the past (and present), but Dr. Who is not as biased as some. It has as much alien-paranoia (or just bad-guy-paranoia) as techno-paranoia (this last includes mad scientists and the like). The main reason for the "bad machine" theme in Dr. Who is simply that an adventure show needs a conflict, which very often implies a bad guy (conflicts arising from "bad luck" get boring real fast). If the new characters are all good, you have something considerably less interesting than the old lady who lived in a shoe. Good vs. evil is a standard conflict, and machines are just as convenient as organic beings for the role of antagonists, in a science fiction show where intelligent machines are fair game as characters. A more real example than the fairy tale above: Imagine an episode where The Doctor encounters a machine spending all of it's time persuing the twelve points of the Scout Law, or some such. Mighty short show: the BBC would never buy it. Now add a bad guy/machine/computer. The good computer can be fighting it, but must take on a secondary position to The Doctor who will also fight the bad guy. In order to get the most charactor developement of the main characters (The Doctor and the Bad Guy), the good guy would only get minor developement. Now, depicting a machine that is on Don Quizote's quest cannot be done with justice in a minimum of lines. Therefore the best alternative is (almost always) to give any friendly machines/people very limited characters, into which complex altruistic motives don't fit well. Just making them friendly takes character developement time away from the main characters. Granted, occasionally the plot requires greater developement of a secondary character, but this is rare. Thus any good characters you see, whether machine or organic, are shallow characters and are eclipsed by the stronger evil characters necessary for most good shows. You naturally remember the evil characters since they are so much stronger and better developed. Some others have already pointed out to you on this bboard that not all of the "bad" machines were all that bad. The "Robot", for example, was actually so good by nature that it was driven mad by what it was being made to do. (Of course, ANYTHING that falls for The Dip---uh, I mean Sarah Jane Smith---has serious problems, in my book.) What I don't recall seeing pointed out to you is this principle of people only remembering the bad guys, due to the constraints on dramatic presentation. Naturally the bad machines outnumber the good ones, since we always need a bad guy, but The Doctor doesn't always need (seldom has) a strong assisstant character other than his companions. But I'll list some friendly machines: Consider the TARDIS. Although considered an antique piece of junk by the Time Lords, it nevertheless is clearly the show's main symbol of advanced technology. It is certainly intelligent enough at times to qualify as a sentient computer, and is (reasonably) non-homicidal. Consider K-9. I can't think of a more friendly computer! Then there's Chamelion, who is a good egg when not dominated by The Master, and who eventually commits suicide to protect his friends from himself. Well, you may argue, so obviously the machines that The Doctor keeps near him will be the good ones. How about the incidentals he meets on his journeys? Other than the mistreated ROBOT, and the similarly misprogrammed Xoanon who becomes downright friendly after he is straightened out? The Movellens are quite reasonable beings. They spend most of their time killing Daleks. Of course, they do this only since they plan to eventually dominate the universe, but then the Time Lords seem about the only race WITHOUT that goal. The Movellens are certainly no more aggressive about it than are the Humans, for example. They are perfectly willing to work with The Doctor for mutual benefit, etc. In The Robots of Death, we see a race of robots corrupted by another mad scientist type. But we also see other members of the same robot race, who are police agents out to foil the bad guys. The leader good-guy robot is a strong character, but can anyone even remembers his name? I can't. The Androids of Tara were not bad, but then they were not bright enough to be good OR evil. Although build to wage war, Mentalis was certainly no meglomaniac. After gaining communication with it (via K-9), The Doctor seemed to take a liking to it. Terminus has a repair-robot: not too bright, but smart enough to make a mutually beneficial deal with The Doctor. I'm sure ther are many more intelligent robots who assisted The Doctor, but they are not the things that I remember well, either! These ones above are the only ones who come to mind at the moment. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 87 21:41:50 GMT From: robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen) Subject: Re: Planet of the Daleks castell@UMass.BITNET writes: >The Daleks were originally humanoid beings known as the Kaleds, but >genetic mutation caused by a thousand-year war with the Thals was >turning them into these shriveled green things. The travel casings >were designed by Davros, who foresaw the mutation, but he induced >further mutation that caused the Daleks, as he named them, to have >no morals or compassion. (Genesis of the Daleks, 1975). Do you know the name of the movie which starred Peter Cushing as Dr. Who, and which had him in Earths future fighting the Daleks with a future disease? This was (as I recall) the Dr.s' introduction to the Daleks, although he later met them in "Earth 21XX" which has previously been discussed. So, what is the name of this movie, and how does it fit into the Dr. Who timeline? Robert Allen, robert@spam.istc.sri.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 87 15:01:39 EST From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Re: SF Influences, specifically, Doctor Who. Well, I noticed that most of the postings on this subject have been media- and TV related. That's probably because media plots are dreamed up in a week's time, or less, so there is less scope for getting really imaginative than there is with novels and the like. Doctor Who does this sort of thing all the time, though less so in recent seasons. Not only did they take plot ideas from classic tales etc., but they also used to go into historical situations. Here's all I can think of offhand: Historical situations: 1. An Unearthly Child (1963). The first story broadcast. First episode introduced the characters, rest was called "The Tribe of Gum" and concerned early man's discovery of fire. 2. Marco Polo (1963?). Doctor meets Marco Polo in China. 3. The Romans (1964?). Doctor at the court of Nero (I think) 4. The Myth Makers (?). Doctor involved in Trojan War. 5. The Smugglers (?). Doctor foils 17th-century smugglers. 6. The Reign of Terror (?). Doctor in France during Reign of Terror. 7. The Massacre (?). Doctor present at the massacre of the Huguenots in 16th-century France. 8. The Gunfighters (?). Doctor involved in the shootout at the OK Corral. Worst story ever by a long shot. 9. The Highlanders (1967?). Doctor involved in aftermath of the defeat of Bonnie Prince Charlie in Scotland in 1745. 10. Black Orchid (1982). Agatha Christie-ish murder mystery set in 1920's. Classical plots: 1. Pyramids of Mars (1976). A homage to every Egyptian Mummy movie ever made, and one of the best stories ever. 2. The Brain of Morbius (1976). Frankenstein revisited. 3. Underworld (1977). Jason and the Argonauts in Outer Space. 4. The Horns of Nimon (1980). Plot lifted almost directly from the legend of the Minotaur, complete with similar place- and character-names. 5. State of Decay (1981). Count Dracula in a negative universe. That's all I can think of for now... if anyone thinks of any more, please post them. Chip Olson UMass-Amherst. Castell@UMass (BITNET) Castell%UMass.Bitnet@WiscVM.Wisc.EDU (ARPANET etc.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 87 14:27 CDT From: Gleep? <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET> Subject: robot mania in Dr. Who I'm surprised no one has mentioned K-9. That's the best counter to the robot phobia claim that I know of. By the way, the show can hardly be an example of 50's high-tech paranoia. It started in 1963 (?) and is still going strong today. I can hardly believe they're already on the seventh doctor - we haven't even seen the sixth yet!! (I did get an advance look at the fifth, whose name I can never remember - played Tristam on All Creatures Great and Small. I was studying over there when the first show with him aired.) By the way, I don't have any references to hand - do I have the numbering right? Tom Baker - 4, name-I-can't-remember - 5, Colin Baker - 6, Sylvester McCoy - 7. Eleanor evans%ngstl1@ti-eg.csnet evans%ngstl1%ti-eg@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 22:20:11 GMT From: jtn@potomac.dc.ads.com (John T. Nelson) Subject: Dr. Who and the City of Death.... We've all seen the Dr. Who episode entitled "The City of Death" in which Skaroth (the last of the Jagaroth and the saviour of his race) commisions Leonardo Da Vinci to produce 12 identical copies of the Mona Lisa ("La Gioconda" to us connoisseurs). Since his later self (which is in contact THROUGH time to his former self) knows the Mona Lisa will be priceless, he has his former self hide the copies in France until his later self may sell them to greedy art-snobs as the original (which he also intends to steal so that each of the art snobs thinks he is getting a stolen original). Some say it really happened. According to rumor, the 1911 robbery of the Mona Lisa was arranged by an art dealer from Buenos Aires. His plan was was to have a half dozen forgeries made and then sold to South American dealers, each of whom not only would believe that he owned the real painting, but also would keep quite for fear of criminal prosecution. If he made his money he planned to return the original to the Louvre and tell his customers that the Louvre had created the forgery. Indeed the Mona Lisa mysteriously reappeared on display in 1913. But was it REALLY the Mona Lisa? John T. Nelson ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 17 Mar 87 1308-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #87 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Mar 87 1308-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #87 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 17 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 87 Today's Topics: Books - Kurtz (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Mar 1987 09:13:03-EST From: wyzansky@NADC Subject: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) I have noticed a major inconsistency between Katherine Kurtz's third Deryni trilogy and the appendix to _High_Deryni_, the third book of the first trilogy. In appendix IV, she discusses the genetic basis of Deryni powers and says that the Deryni gene is sex-linked and passed on the X chromosome, so that a Deryni male and a "human" female could never produce a son with Deryni powers (although they could have a Deryni daughter). Since Duncan inherited his Deryni powers from his mother, he has the X' chromosome, but there is no way he could have passed this on to his "son" Dhugal. There is another way to inherit Deryni powers, on the Y chromosome, which is obviously passed from a father to all of his sons, as in the royal Haldane line. In this appendix, Ms. Kurtz goes on to say that the awakening of this type of Deryni power is difficult and that it may be passed for many generations unknown to the bearers of the gene. So we are left with two ways that Dhugal could wind up with Deryni powers - either his mother (whoever she was) was a Deryni who didn't know her heritage (similar to Kelson's mother), or his father, either in the McLain line if Duncan was really his father, or in the MacArdry line if Duncan was jumping to unwarranted conclusions, carried the Y' chromosome and didn't know it. In either case, there is no definite way to prove, one way or another, that Duncan is the father, and in fact, the odds are against it. Harold Wyzansky wyzansky@nadc.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 87 01:20:36 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) From: wyzansky@NADC >I have noticed a major inconsistency between Katherine Kurtz's >third Deryni trilogy and the appendix to _High_Deryni_ > [ ... which ] says that the Deryni gene is sex-linked and passed >on the X chromosome, so that a Deryni male and a "human" female >could never produce a son with Deryni powers (although they could >have a Deryni daughter). Since Duncan inherited his Deryni powers >from his mother, he has the X' chromosome, but there is no way he >could have passed this on to his "son" Dhugal. > >There is another way to inherit Deryni powers, on the Y chromosome, >which is obviously passed from a father to all of his sons, as in >the royal Haldane line. > >In either case, there is no definite way to prove, one way or >another, that Duncan is [Dhugal's] father, and in fact, the odds >are against it. Very true. Personally, I think that Kurtz changed her mind about how Deryni powers work. She's changed her mind penty of times before, and fit things together pretty well. BUT... a) wouldn't it be interesting if Duncan turned out to carry Haldane blood? b) there was a big hint by KK in the very end of "Quest" that Maryse MacArdry, Dhugal's mother, has some connection to Deryni. And don't forget the continual side remarks about "the mysterious 'second sight'" that so many of the border men (down, Paul Zimmer fans! :-) ) have. I think KK is working toward tying the MacArdrys, at least, into the Deryni who went into hiding after the Council of Ramos. Maybe turned-off Deryni powers resurface in the children... Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 07:45:51 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Katheryn Kurtz >Any news on when the last book in the latest Deryni triology will >be coming out? I've always wondered whether Camber is really dead, >or just waiting for someone to release him from the death-defying >spell that he was able to place on himself in the first >series....Ms. Kurtz was a little hazy about Camber's >death/non-death. As Shoshanna said in a paragraph I deleted here the Quest for Saint Camber is out in hardcover. Mass market paperback - I dont know but probably sometime this fall. For the future: Katheryn was the GOH at Stark Raving Confusion and I got a chance to ask her about when new books would be forthcomming. No books untill late 1988 at the earliest. The next Deryni trilogy will be set immeiately after the Legends of Camber of Culdi. The titles are: 1. The Harrowing of Gwynedd This is about the events of 918. Evaine and Joram try to bring Camber back. One can infer from Kelson's time that they didnt make it. 2. Javan's Year As the title implies. 3. The Bastard Prince Katheryn said that this isn't what you might think from the title ie- the bastard prince isn't who you think it is. However this comment was made at ~2:00 in the morning and in my fuzziness the next day I forgot to try to get a clairification. (I stayed up all night playing Civilization) The time of this one is the "Plague" of 948 (I think that's the year - the one when practicly everyone on the geniology dies.) ( No - Plague is my term - Katheryn just smiled at it and didnt say anything one way or another) There will be a significant delay between the first book and the second. Katheryn has contracted to do an Occult Revolutionary War novel for $250,000. Simmilar in nature to Lammas Night. This time however Random House has promised to publicize it properly as a main- stream novel. Lammas Night will also be rereleased around the same time. After the Bastard Prince she plans to write the Childe Morgan Trilogy. Book one will start before Morgan's birth and show some more about how he and Brion were prepared vis-a-vis the Haldane Potential. More will be revealed about the Arilans. Katheryn also droped a few hints that I havent mentioned here including one MEGA-SPOILER. If you are curious, drop me a note via E-Mail. >>And what about Rhys' daughter. According to the geneology charts >>she lived to be about 91 years old, and Rhys predicted that she >>would be the greatest healer around. Nary a word. So many >>potential story-lines! And Ms. Kurtz' writing just keeps getting >>better and better! > >Yes, I'd like to hear about her. I'd *really* like to know how >Cinhil's son Rhys fared as king, and *especially* how in hell he >came to marry Michaela Drummond; not a geneology that would be >approved by the Regents, there... Some of this will no doubt come out in the Bastard Prince. Speaking of Regents. Gwynedd will be seeing a lot of them in the post Cinhil era. I supose it wont be saying too much to mention that Javan - a healthy young man if you discount his foot. died rather quickly. So did Rhys Michael. Katheryn hinted that while the regents may or maynot have directly implemented both demises, they were not displeased and may have done some looking tthe other way. As far as Michaela Drummond goes - my fuzzed brain couldnt figure how this is supposed to work but Katheryn said that James Drummond although related to Camber is not necessarily Deryni and neither is his daughter as far as the Regents know. Camber's sister apparently wasn't the only relative not to marry a Deryni spouse. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 07:18:18 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) From: wyzansky@NADC >I have noticed a major inconsistency between Katherine Kurtz's >third Deryni trilogy and the appendix to _High_Deryni_, the third >book of the first trilogy. In appendix IV, she discusses Accurate summary of Deryni Genetics Deleted. >So we are left with two ways that Dhugal could wind up with Deryni >powers - either his mother (whoever she was) was a Deryni who >didn't know her heritage (similar to Kelson's mother), or his >father, either in the McLain line if Duncan was really his father, >or in the MacArdry line if Duncan was jumping to unwarranted >conclusions, carried the Y' chromosome and didn't know it. In >either case, there is no definite way to prove, one way or another, >that Duncan is the father, and in fact, the odds are against it. As far as the Y chromosone goes - although that possibility bothered me through most of my first reading of Bishop's Heir - Dughal never went through anything approaching a power activation ritual. I don't think that a mind link would satisfy the requirements of an effective ritual (whatever they are exactly - but Camber or Rhys made sure to brief Cinhil on them to make sure he knew - so they are probably not perfectly straitforward) As for Dhugal's Deryniness which I think has been established by this point. 1. Healing Talants seem to follow the male line. Note Rhys Thuryn's children. The MacRories weren't a healer family. [Granted the Thuryns wernt known to be before Rhys but they were a minor family and they might just not have known. Camber & Evaine would have known if they personally had that talant] The following are derivative of some comments droped by Katheryn at Stark Raving Confusion last January: 2. No one in the Deryni Universe understands Genetics. [Remember the Camberian Council ("those who's business it is to know such things") was of the opinion that being a half-breed made a difference. The genetics don't support this concept.] 3. "Where do you think the Second Sight comes from?", answered Katheryn Kurtz to the question stated above. 4. Someone should check to see if Calder of Scheel is Deryni and if he is find out who got him past ordination. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 21:33:08 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) ** Some spoilers for Quest for St. Camber herein ** beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes: >As far as the Y chromosone goes - although that possibility >bothered me through most of my first reading of Bishop's Heir - >Dughal never went through anything aproaching a power activation >ritual. I dont think that a mind link would satisfy the >requirements of an effective ritual (whatever they are exactly - >but Camber or Rhys made sure to brief Cinhil on them to make sure >he knew - so they are probably not perfectly straitforward) But the power rituals are for the Haldane power, which comes full-blown at the moment of assumption. Regular Deryni powers arise slowly (if at all) and require formal training. Dhugal has no need for a power ritual because he does not carry the "Haldane-type" power. (As far as we know... gosh, this is almost as much fun as Watchmen speculation! :-) ) Now, this raises two questions: 1) How did training help Conal, if the Haldane power arrives full-blown? 2) How did Conal get his powers without a power ritual? Well, since no one knows why it is that the Haldanes are able to assume power anyway, this isn't a problem, it just goes under "insufficient data" and gets speculated about. Camber et al. just happened to notice that something about Cinhil made him able to have some Deryni powers "implanted"; I don't think they even knew at the type that the ability was inherited, let alone sex-linked. (Is it? The characters think so, but they aren't always right...) Maybe this ties in with the healing powers of Warin de Grey (remember him?). It has been occasionally speculated that anyone can receive "Haldane-type" powers. Also recall Bran Coris. Conal's "Haldane-type" power presumably requires a power ritual. Perhaps he and his mentor went through one; we never see how they met and began training him. Or perhaps Deryni blood in the Haldane line cropped up and Conall was exercising "Deryni-type" power instead of "Haldane-type" power as everyone assumed. (I hope my terminology is clear here.) >3. "Where do you think the Second Sight comes from?", answered > Katheryn Kurtz to the question stated above. What question was this? I didn't follow you. I suggested in a recent posting that the border "second sight" might well come from Deryni intermixing. >4. Someone should check to see if Calder of Scheel is Deryni and > if he is find out who got him past ordination. Unfortunately most of my books are 3000 miles away and can't be sent. Could you remind me who Calder of Scheel is? And I do hope you've read "The Priesting of Arilan." As far as I can tell, that was a genuine miracle. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 21:44:58 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) >But the power rituals are for the Haldane power, which comes >full-blown at the moment of assumption. Right. Warin is an example of what happens if you have the talent without the training. Also, we've seen several cases of men with the potential being 'easy to train'. The Haldane ritual can be explained in one, or both, of two ways, I think. a) It functions primarily to remove a *suppression* applied specially to the Haldanes because of the explosive potential of having too many people in the same family with powers. b) It invokes divine aid in providing 'training' along with access to the simple power. We see that the Haldane situation is special when we are told that Conal, as heir, is *expected* to be picking up some powers simply by virtue of being heir. Surely in no other family do men begin to gain the power because their legal status has changed. By the way, not to complicate matters or anything, but it seems fairly clear that there is no such thing as 'Deryni' powers as opposed to 'human' powers. The inheritance patterns of the powers back up the claim that a single gene may be responsible. (As they should, since the patterns and the claim come from the same author.) But it seems absurd to claim that a single gene can grant telepathy, teleportation, mind control, fire-and-lightning, a serious merasha allergy, and what have you. What is more plausible is that these abilities are potentially present in all humans (thanks to a large number of genes indeed) and that the one gene is simply that which unlocks those powers. (Stand back for a splash: I'm about to dive off the deep end. I can't imagine any mechanism for evolving such a sophisticated complex of *potential* powers. So it follows that at one time untrained but usable powers were fairly common. Three mechanisms suggest themselves for causing these powers to be lost. a) Intermarriage with a larger population that didn't possess them. Doesn't work: the inheritance patterns are wrong. b) At some point in history the powers became countersurvival, and only those whose abilities were blocked/impaired survived. There's an interesting story in that. Maybe the healers of that day *induced* the blockage. c) The loss of power goes back to prehistoric times, to the extinction of some plant that had once been a fairly common part of the human diet and which supplied a missing enzyme. The Deryni are descended from those who manufactured their own. This is the explanation I prefer, although it contains some serious weaknesses too.) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 17 Mar 87 1323-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #88 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Mar 87 1323-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #88 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 17 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 88 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Mar 87 01:41:10 GMT From: msudoc!krj@rutgers.edu (Ken Josenhans {msucl Systems}) Subject: Large SF cons (was: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report) [[ The following is slightly revised from a letter sent to Evelyn Leeper before Boskone XXIV. I was not present at that convention, I have no association with NESFA, but I am very interested in the sociology of sf fandom.]] I don't think that fandom has a whole has really thought about the implications which the changed status of science fiction have had upon it, and will continue to have upon it until popular tastes change. As far as I can tell, fandom was largely conceived from the 1930's through the 1950's, in a period when sf was a minority taste, and when few book publishers found it profitable to publish the stuff. Now, however, sf books clutter the NYT bestseller lists, and sf and fantasy films now dominate the list of most profitable movies of all time. From fandom's early days we have inherited an evangelistic streak which may not be appropriate any more. If I were running a major convention, I would be looking to trim back program items in areas I had little or no interest in. For me, first to go would be the film program and the gaming program; the next things *I'd* be looking at would be the costuming, organized filksinging and artshow. Each of these areas started out as a nice little sideshow to the main convention, but there are now many people who come to the convention primarily to participate in just one of these activities. So my reaction is, let them go and set up their own convention. (Fans of those particular activities, don't bother flaming me; I *don't* run any such convention.) I'm not sure how politically feasible this is, however. It seems like all of the appendages of the large contemporary convention (worldcon OR regional) have noisy constituencies. For that matter, the very aura of non-stop partying has a vocal constituency -- look how well the Bermuda Triangle worldcon bid did. Then there is the problem of proliferating conventions. Here in the midwest, it would not be much of an exaggeration to say that one can go to a convention every weekend. There are at least four conventions now held annually in the Detroit/Ann Arbor area -- Confusion, Autofusion, Conclave, and Contraption. Conventions have become the principal form of fanac in our time, and as long as working on conventions is a method of producing egoboo, people are going to set up and run more conventions. Each of these little bitty regionals recruits a few more people into convention going, and once the habit is ingrained I think they all start going to the larger regionals and the worldcon. Some possible solutions or outcomes: 1) Some fans are trying to fight the trend by organizing conventions with sharply limited interests and programming. Autoclave, a Detroit convention oriented towards fanzine fandom, was a moderate success from 1976-1981, but its organizers folded it after a year when they just broke even because a major midwestern regional had shifted to their weekend. An attempt to hold a convention oriented towards sf readers in Toronto in the early 1980's came to an end when Torque #4 drew less than ten out-of-town attendees, though. It seems that the no-programming relaxacons have not been as affected by the growth in fandom. This may be due to a planned lack of advertising. 2) SF may cease to be so damned popular. (Personally, I think this would be a good thing.) I assume this will have to happen eventually; forms of popular entertainment have always shifted. Conventions celebrating the Western genre probably don't have the sf cons' problems. 3) Large conventions may get torpedoed by changes in the larger society, or they may collapse due to their own growth. With the current lawsuit-happy climate, I figure it is only a matter of time before a major con and all its committee members get sued for an incident involving either alcohol or weapons. We also seem to be seeing an increase in rowdiness and destructive vandalism as the social controls of a smaller fandom break down, as so many people at the con are anonymous to others there; this is going to make cons less attractive to hotels. The rise of AIDS in the general population is likely to end the era of convention-as- singles-bar. And finally, if the worldcon and large regionals keep getting bigger, they will burn out the few people competent to run them, and the ensuing incompetence will drive people (and hotels) away. Sorry this is so disorganized and rambling. I have been thinking about these problems for some time, and I haven't been able to come up with a coherent set of answers; I can't even come up with a good rationalization for or definition of fandom, most of the time. (For that matter, why should anyone even pay attention to me? I've steadfastly refused to work on any convention, except in 1983 when I babysat a room for a couple of hours...) Ken Josenhans P.O. Box 6610 East Lansing, MI 48823 UUCP: ...ihnp4!msudoc!krj BITNET: 13020KRJ@MSU ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 87 08:52 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Boskone The fact is, those media types will be attending no matter what you do, even if you have no big media events planned. They seem to like to get together in herds. So, given that, wouldn't we rather have them hole up in a 24-hour Star Trek room than have them wandering the halls, loose, where we trufen would have to deal with them? Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 19:50:39 GMT From: tower@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Leonard H. Tower Jr.) Subject: Re: Boskone From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM > The fact is, those media types will be attending no matter what > you do, even if you have no big media events planned. They seem > to like to get together in herds. So, given that, wouldn't we > rather have them hole up in a 24-hour Star Trek room than have > them wandering the halls, loose, where we trufen would have to > deal with them? Is the solution to Boskone's problems, to have NESFA actively encourage other events at the same time, that would siphon off the undesirable populations? - An assassins guild bash the same weekend to attract the pop/zap gun crowd. - Several concerts, of groups popular with teenagers, in Providence, Worcester, Portland, ... the Friday and Saturday of Boskone. - Encourage local High Schools to have dances that weekend (maybe with a donation of $ n.00 to those that do?). - Anyone have any other ideas? Maybe this is the next challenge to NESFA: to not only work within Fandom to make Boskone the best regional convention there is, but to affect non-Fandom towards the same end. Len Tower Distributed Systems Group, Boston University, 111 Cummington Street, Boston, MA 02215, USA +1 (617) 353-2780 Home: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1 (617) 623-7739 UUCP: {}!harvard!bu-cs!tower INTERNET: tower@bu-cs.bu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 87 16:23:01 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Convention discussion The recent Boskone discussion has inspired some questions which prompt this message. Three separate quotes need explanation: From Evelyn Leeper: >...The suggestions in this area ranged from no seeding of parties >(to keep the size down)... What is the "seeding" of parties? (Any interpretation I can think of is no incentive for me to attend such a party, so I can't figure out why NOT doing it will decrease their size... :-) From Rich Kolker: >...Unfortunately, I have stopped attending Trek and media cons >because the people who are now running them are either >professionals not interested in fannish traditions, or people who >know cons only through the pro presentations. When I ran the 10th >Anniversary August Party in 1985, more than one attendee had the >reaction "The program book is free, I can get in the con suite, you >mean this ice cream is free?" You get the idea... No, I'm sorry. I don't get the idea at all. Are you saying that these people were surprised that the things were "free"? (Actually, didn't they pay an admission or membership fee of some sort to be there at all? If so, then these things are included in that fee, right?) That is, that they were so used to overpriced "professionally"-run cons that were in reality just an excuse to gouge attendees for money by charging for everything possible separately, that they were surprised when they encountered fairness from a volunteer-run con? Or are you saying that they were unjustifiably expecting these things to be free (and that they could get into the con suite, etc...) when they were not free, and they were expecting more than they were entitled to as ordinary attendees? That is, they paid a relatively small entrance fee and thought they should get vast amounts of goodies in return for paying a pittance? As you can see, I could interpret this paragraph in at least two diametrically-opposed ways, and am somewhat at a loss to figure out just what precisely is meant... I think that written punctuation is insufficient for the line quoted -- the meaning all depends on the tone of voice of the speaker. You are probably remembering a specific tone which makes this recollection an obvious example, but we need more clues. From Shoshanna Green: >...If serfen want a sercon, they can put one on, and do. ... What on earth (or off it...) are "serfen"? (I keep thinking of servants, serfs, and servers... Does this maybe relate to "serials"?) Regards, Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 17:35:46 GMT From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: Convention discussion >From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI >>From Shoshanna Green: >>...If serfen want a sercon, they can put one on, and do. ... >What on earth (or off it...) are "serfen"? (I keep thinking of >servants, serfs, and servers... Does this maybe relate to >"serials"?) This is a fine example of the spread of SF convention attendance well beyond fannish circles. Are you familiar with the term "sercon"? It's old fanspeak, derived from "serious and constructive", and refers to people who like to go to serious (especially literary) programming at conventions (among other things). Given "sercon", I immediately assume "serfen" to be a contraction of "sercon fen" (fen is the plural of fan). The use of "sercon" itself in the original quote is a contraction of "sercon convention" into "sercon con" into "sercon". Sercon fen would be essentially the opposite of media fen, so I don't think it relates to serials. (The other opposite of sercon fen is convention or party fen.) David Dyer-Bennet UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 17:02:41 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Convention discussion From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI >The recent Boskone discussion has inspired some questions which >prompt this message. Three separate quotes need explanation: As long as I'm here, I'll explain what I understand Evelyn and Rich to be saying as well, since I know the terminology, but remember that only they are the final arbiters. >From Evelyn Leeper: >>...The suggestions in this >>area ranged from no seeding of parties (to keep the size down)... > >What is the "seeding" of parties? "Seeding" a party means giving it some supplies to get started with (think of "seed money"). Boskone traditionally has given any open parties which want it a couple cases of soda, munchies, etc., to enable more people to hold parties without such a financial burden. From Rich Kolker: >>...Unfortunately, I have stopped attending Trek and media cons >>because the people who are now running them are either >>professionals not interested in fannish traditions, or people who >>know cons only through the pro presentations. When I ran the 10th >>Anniversary August Party in 1985, more than one attendee had the >>reaction "The program book is free, I can get in the con suite, >>you mean this ice cream is free?" You get the idea... > >No, I'm sorry. I don't get the idea at all. I understand Rick to be saying that these attendees were so used to professionally run for-profit cons that they were, as you say, "surprised when they encountered fairness from a volunteer-run con." Rick seems to be implying that having such people at a con makes it less fun for those of us accustomed to "trufannish" conventions. (More on fannish jargon below; sorry.) I'm not sure why he thinks that; perhaps you could explain this a bit more, Rick? From Shoshanna Green: >>...If serfen want a sercon, they can put one on, and do. ... >What on earth (or off it...) are "serfen"? (I keep thinking of >servants, serfs, and servers... Does this maybe relate to >"serials"?) Occasionally I lapse into fannish jargon, which I enjoy. "Serfen" comes from "fen", the plural of "fan", combined with "serious". Serfen are the serious readers (and producers), who probably want discussions of the craft of writing, the sociological background of a book, the implications of a technology, and the like at a con, and would gladly skip the pun competition and the panel on Zero-G Sex. I used the word "trufannish" above, after several minutes of trying to find another way to say what I'm trying to say in a few words. It should be clear that it comes from "true fan". By "trufannish" conventions I mean cons put on by fans, for fans, with an understanding of what sf (or whatever the particular theme of the con) is and why we enjoy it. I'm not eliminating trek cons here, just the for-profit ones designed to separate fen from cash. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 20:24:15 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: Re: Convention discussion From Rich Kolker: >>...Unfortunately, I have stopped attending Trek and media cons >>because the people who are now running them are either >>professionals not interested in fannish traditions, or people who >>know cons only through the pro presentations. When I ran the 10th >>Anniversary August Party in 1985, more than one attendee had the >>reaction "The program book is free, I can get in the con suite, >>you mean this ice cream is free?" You get the idea... > >No, I'm sorry. I don't get the idea at all. Are you saying that >these people were surprised that the things were "free"? (Actually, >didn't they pay an admission or membership fee of some sort to be >there at all? If so, then these things are included in that fee, >right?) That is, that they were so used to overpriced >"professionally"-run cons that were in reality just an excuse to >gouge attendees for money by charging for everything possible >separately, that they were surprised when they encountered fairness >from a volunteer-run con? That's it! I should write more clearly, but I get sloppy with my grammar (and spelling) cramming my net reading into the little time I have for it. The fact is, pro run cons charge for everything ( even to be IN the costume call!), and there are few if any parties, certainly not any run by the con itself. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 Mar 87 0925-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #89 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Mar 87 0925-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #89 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 89 Today's Topics: Books - McCollum & Offut & Schmitz (3 msgs) & L. Neil Smith & Stewart & Watt-Evans & Red Sonja (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Mar 87 13:18:39 PST (Thursday) Subject: re:McCollum PROCYON'S PROMISE question (spoiler) From: Hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.COM Read LIFE PROBE and PROCYONS PROMISE ! Highly recommended! 1. The artifical intelligence included in the Procyon expedition was a pseudo-human interpreter created by the original PROBE. It certainly didn't have access to any information that would be dangerous to the original builders. So it didn't know what they looked like. It barely survived the destruction of PROBE. Add to that the time involved in the initial flight, and it is perfectly reasonable that it wouldn't be able to identify the Star Travelers as its' parents' builders. Technical manuals, especially highly complex ones, would have no occasion to depict any person, as they are works of reference. Operators manuals would be different, but apparently that isn't what was found. 2. As I recall, as soon as the vast number of returned intersteller sublight probes were identified, the secret was pretty much up. I was surprised that there was a record of a landfall on Procyon. I don't look for a direct sequel to this book. "Antares Dawn" apparently is the new universe McCollum is working on (if not yet another). I hope he keeps writting. Read "Lungfish" in David Brins' new anthology "The River of Time". Clark Hallgren ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 87 08:00:18 PST From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa Subject: Thieve's world (Shadowspawn) I corresponded with Andrew Offutt last year some time and he told me that he had finished his Shadowspawn novel and was awaiting it's publication in August of 1987. He was amazed at the lead time the publisher demanded. It was interesting that his letter to me was printed on the back of a couple of pages from the draft of his story. It looked a lot like Macintosh printing too. Jon pugh@nmfecc.arpa National Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory PO Box 5509 L-561 Livermore, California 94550 (415) 423-4239 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 87 22:07:00 EST From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: Schmitz James Schmitz wasn't one of the most prolific authors, but he has a number of books you can still find if you look hard enough. In most cases, I have to admit I read these books enough years ago that I can't remember too much about them, other than whether I liked them or not. I suppose that means they are not deathless classics (from which you remember every scene), but I never read anything of Schmitz's that I didn't enjoy. _Agent of Vega_ - short story collection about a secret agent of the futre _The Lion Game_ - A Telzy Amberdon novel. If you can find the original DAW edition, the Freas cover alone is worth the price (for red-blooded Terran males anyway). Very good. _The Witches of Karres_ and "The Witches of Karres" - The genesis for TWOK was a novellete, still available, I think in one of the _Science Fiction Hall of Fame_ volumes. Very good. The novel is available as an old Ace Special and more recently with more pages but apparently the same text. Excellent. _The Demon Breed_ - One woman against an alien invasion. Good. _A Tale of Two Clocks_ - A Trigger Argee book. Trigger encounters the Old Galactics. Very good. (I think this one has been issued under another title also). _The Universe Against Her_ - Telzy Amberdon. Good. _A Pride of Monsters_ - Short story collection. Several set in the Hub universe. One with Trigger Argee. Good. _The Telzy Toy_ - Stories of Telzy Amberdon. Good. Many of Schmitz's stories (including the ones about the young telepath Telzy Amberdon and Trigger Argee) were set in an appealing universe where humankind is organized into the Federation of the Hub, and a distant Overgovernment lets everything freewheel along so that the resultant competition will make humanity less easy prey. One of the mysteries of the Hub universe is the fate of the Old Galactics, the slow (a different clock) but powerful precursors of Man on the galactic scene. Trigger definitely has run-ins with them, and if memory serves, so does Telzy. Schmitz was known for his strong female characters (though lately some have called him chauvanistic). Schmitz also has an upbeat story in one of Kingsley Amis's _Spectrum_ anthologies (can't remember the title) and several uncollected works from the SF magazines of the mid 60's. Summary: Try him. Ted Nolan ted@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 00:55:47 GMT From: jtk@mordor.s1.gov (Jordan Kare) Subject: Re: Schmitz From: ted@braggvax.arpa >James Schmitz wasn't one of the most prolific authors, but he has a >number of books you can still find if you look hard enough. One book not mentioned by Ted is, if I recall correctly, "The Eternal Frontier". I think this was the last book Schmitz wrote. I have always been very fond of his works, especially "Witches of Karres" and "Demon Breed". As a side note, when I first saw "Star Wars", the universe it most reminded me of was Schmitz's -- not particularly because of the plot, but because of the "furniture". It's very easy to imagine Telzey Amberdon climbing into a brand new shiny landspeeder (while the dealer ships her old one off to some backwater planet like Tattooine), or Nile Etland's UW (hand weapon in "Demon Breed") looking and acting a lot like Han Solo's blaster -- except that Nile Etland was a _much_ better shot :-) :-). Jordin Kare jtk@mordor.UUCP jtk@mordor.s1.gov ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 87 04:09:00 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Schmitz ted@braggvax.arpa writes: >Many of Schmitz's stories (including the ones about the young >telepath Telzy Amberdon and Trigger Argee) were set in an appealing >universe where humankind is organized into the Federation of the >Hub, and a distant Overgovernment lets everything freewheel along >so that the resultant competition will make humanity less easy >prey. One of the mysteries of the Hub universe is the fate of the >Old Galactics, the slow (a different clock) but powerful precursors >of Man on the galactic scene. Trigger definately has run ins with >them, and if memory serves, so does Telzy. Schmitz was known for >his strong female characters (though lately some have called him >chauvanistic). Telzey runs into both the Old Galactics and Trigger Argee in the story "Compulsion" (from THE TELZEY TOY). I'm a'gonna get upset if I can't find THE LION GAME. Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 21:37:48 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: Crystal Empire The Crystal Empire, by L Neil Smith **** mild spoilers **** So, the Islamic Caliph in Rome decides to send his daughter Ayesha to marry the King of the mysterious Crystal Empire on the west coast of the New World, in the hope of getting an ally against the Mughal hoards... ... and we are in the midst of another alternative history novel. The premise is that a very virulent form of the Black Death removed Christian Europe from the world stage by depopulation. The rest follows. I found this a readable piece of speculation; fairly lightweight mostly. A big plus point is that the plot and narrative move along quite well, and there are enough historical jokes to keep one amused. Two minus points (as ever, in my opinion). First, the novel (at 450 pages) is too short. That's because it tries to describe four quite different societies, and build up several major characters, all the while keeping the action going. At times, things become very terse. Secondly, the ending is terrible - like something out of the 40's when our handful of intrepid heroes defeat the bad guys in a cataclysm of stupifying unlikelihood. Wait for the paperback. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 87 10:05:19 EST From: Ron Singleton Subject: _Earth Abides_ (Stewart) NOTE: No spoilers here! I just saw the recent recommendation for "EARTH ABIDES" by George Stewart, and decided to add my kudos. As an indication of how much I appreciate this book: I presently have maybe 50 or 60 in my "just received, to be read" stack. In spite of this, I've picked up "Earth Abides" twice in the last year or so, for a re-read. Like the person who previously mentioned this title I only discovered it within the last two years, so now I've read it three times. It's not cover-to-cover action, doesn't have "magic" or "super-technology", it's just a good read. If you can find a copy, READ IT! (To coin a phrase)... Ron S. (rsingle@cct.bbn.com) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 87 19:29:25 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: _With a Single Spell_ by Lawrence Watt-Evans This book is the story of an appretice wizard, who's master dies before instructing him in more than the rudiments of his profession. In fact, he has learned a single spell. Most of the book deals with his search for a way to make a living at his profession despite his sketchy education, and towards the end, how he deals with a windfall legacy with some catches. A light read with nothing profound happening. It compares well with the earlier book with the same setting, _The Misenchanted Sword_. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 87 10:10:39 GMT From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!?) All this talk about the secret of Lythande and the fact that discovery of her womanhood enables one to have power over her reminds me of Red Sonja of comicdom who was given her powers mystically on one condition--that in no way could she offer herself in love to man,or she would have to face the consequences.Mind you,she didn't have to hide her womanhood.It was there for all to see and there was lots of it. jml ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 87 13:47:02 GMT From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: RE: RED SONJA jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) writes: > All this talk about the secret of Lythande and the fact that > discovery of her womanhood enables one to have power over her > reminds me of Red Sonja of comicdom who was given her powers > mystically on one condition--that in no way could she offer > herself in love to man,or she would have to face the consequences. That is not true. The character Red Sonja who appeared in the Conan comic and later 3 series of her own could offer herself to a man. There was a catch however. The man first had to defeat her in armed combat. Around the age of fifteen she had been raped several times by a group of bandits who killed her family. She had a vision of a goddess giving her a supernaturally high skill in swords so that she could avenge herself and her family. The goddess said that if she gave herself to a man who had not defeated her in armed combat, she would lose her skills. Conan tried once or twice (it's been a long time since I read those) but never beat her. In her last series I think the idea arose that the goddess was a figment of Sonja's imagination and that the sword skills were her own. Her father had been an excellent swordsman in his time before he was injured and she used to watch him train her brothers. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 16:51:00 GMT From: mazina@hpfcdq.HP.COM (Dan Mazina) Subject: Re: RE: RED SONJA Freeze it Right There: Being a rather large fan of Robert E. Howard I must say that NO WHERE in the actual Conan books (the original ones, not the hack writer versions) does this incredible story ever appear. Conan meets Red Sonja and does follow her out of town in the beginning of 'Red Nails' but this story of being raped and having to be defeated in combat is completely unsupported. Lets not slander REH's writing with some comic book writer's silly imagination. Daniel Mazina PS: For that matter, I believe 'Red Nails' is the only story Red Sonja even appears in. Now Belit was another matter altogether. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 17:46:56 GMT From: m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM (M. Joseph Barone) Subject: Re: RE: RED SONJA mazina@hpfcdq.HP.COM (Dan Mazina) writes: > Freeze it Right There: > Being a rather large fan of Robert E. Howard I must say that NO >WHERE in the actual Conan books (the original ones, not the hack >writer versions) does this incredible story ever appear. Conan >meets Red Sonja and does follow her out of town in the beginning of >'Red Nails' but this story of being raped and having to be defeated >in combat is completely unsupported. Lets not slander REH's >writing with some comic book writer's silly imagination. > PS: For that matter, I believe 'Red Nails' is the only story >Red Sonja even appears in. Now Belit was another matter altogether. It seems like you're only an REH Conan fan! Red Sonja NEVER appears in any story with Conan written by Robert E. Howard. "Red Nails" was with Valeria. Red Sonja stories by REH take place in the 16th century and she is some type of mecenary and/or pirate (I've never read any; I've just seen it mentioned in a history of the development of Red Sonja). Red Sonja of Conan fame was integrated into his universe by later "hacks" and this is the agreed origin by those who write Conan and Red Sonja stories. Joe Barone m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM {cbosgd, gatech, ihnp4, linus, mirror, uiucdcs}!rayssd!m1b Raytheon Co Submarine Signal Div. 1847 West Main Rd, Portsmouth, RI 02871 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 15:15:55 GMT From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Re: RED SONJA As I recall, in REH there was no character known as Red Sonja. This was a creation by Roy Thomas, WHO IS NOT SOME COMIC BOOK WRITER WITH A SILLY IMAGINATION, based on a character known as Red Sonya, also by REH. Red Sonya was in stories that took place about the 16th Century in Russia, well past Conan's time. The female character from the `Red Nails' story was eliminated and Red Sonja was written in when Thomas adapted it for the comic book. I don't know whether the rape scene happened to Red Sonya, because I have never read any of her stories as yet. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 Mar 87 1000-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #90 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Mar 87 1000-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #90 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 90 Today's Topics: Television - Japanimation & Blake's 7 & Buck Rogers (2 msgs) & Space: 1999 (4 msgs) & Doctor Who (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 11 Feb 87 11:12:08-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: final Urusei Yatsura comic story Recently, "Shonen Weekly Magazine" published the final "Urusei Yatsura" comic stories. Takahashi Rumiko (the author) is now going to take a long vacation. A Japanese friend sent me the last two stories; I received them yesterday. I believe these last two stories will be in "Urusei Yatsura Shonen Sunday Comics #34", since #33 is the most recently published. The second stage of production of the movie "Urusei Yatsura 5" should have been completed in January. I have not found out any details of the story, though; nor do I know if this will be the last movie or if it will continue on with 1 movie/year indefinitely (the way "Star Trek" does). Also, Kitty Animation Circle announced that they are accepting applications for the wait-list to order the complete TV series in laser disc format, since there may be some cancellations. It costs 330,000 yen (about $2200) for the set of 50 discs. I have a confirmed order and am not cancelling, but maybe other people will. Write KAC at: 1-8-5 Yoyogi, Shibuya-ku, Tokyo 151 JAPAN for more details. The final comic story is a typical Japanese-style ending; Japanese love this. There are some fascinating subplots going on, including an alien (Rupu) who says in one scene he is Lum's fiancee, but ends up proposing to Karura (another new alien); obviously I'll have to wait until I get the earlier stories to figure out who the hell Rupu and Karura are. The other one is a huge number of giant mushrooms (57-62 meters tall) that are growing on earth and can only be destroyed by space pigs that eat giant mushrooms. The space pigs seem to be under Rupu's control (there's obviously some background in the earlier stories). The story comes around full circle; Lum and Ataru are again playing the "devil game" of tag, only this time Ataru will not be able to catch Lum unless he will say he loves her (something he has NEVER done!). Apparently, if Ataru wins the devil game the Rupu will send the pigs. Ataru, being his usual stubborn self, won't do this, whether to save the earth or his relationship with Lum. Lum has resolved that if Ataru loses the devil game (and can only lose if he refuses to say he loves her) then Lum will erase all the memories on Earth about the Urusei people. Benten objects -- "I like the Earth and its people! If you erase all the memories of me then I won't be your friend any more!!" -- but the memory erasing machine is started (by accident by Benten!). It is on a timer that will go off if Ataru loses the devil game. Attempts by Mendo, Benten, etc. to destroy the machine fail. Finally, as the game is almost over, and Lum and Ataru are exchanging insults -- "Baka!" ("fool") -- Ataru refuses to say that he loves Lum and points out that under such conditions even if he said it Lum would have no way of knowing if it was sincere. Lum doesn't care; she wants to hear the words anyway. Ataru smugly adds that he won't forget Lum in spite of the memory erasing machine. He trips and we found out why; he's holding a couple of Lum's old horns (apparently Urusei people shed them periodically). When Lum realizes that Ataru has been hoarding her horns, she melts. She goes to him; they embrace -- "Darling!" "Silly Lum!" ("Ramu no baka"). He grabs her horns (on her head) and wins the "devil game" for a second time. The machine stops and everybody is relieved. Afterwards, Sakura and Benten comment that Ataru has not, in fact, said that he loves Lum. Lum asks him WHEN he will. Ataru replies -- "with my dying breath." In the last frame, the narrator (Takahashi Rumoko) says "You will have lover's quarrels for the rest of your lives!!" and as Lum and Ataru head away, Lum says -- "We will!!" ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 87 12:54:41 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: Blake's 7 Does anybody know why the Beeb won't re-run it in Britain? It's not as if they didn't make it in the first place or anything? I missed so many episodes both when it first ran and on the first and only repeat that, at least for the later episodes it would be like watching it from scratch. Piers Cawley ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 87 18:12:15 est From: amsler@flash.bellcore.com (Robert Amsler) Subject: Buck Rogers Episode Guide Has anyone produced a Buck Rogers (TV Series) episode guide? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 18:34:36 GMT From: buchholz@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Elliott Buchholz) Subject: Re: Buck Rogers Episode Guide From: amsler@flash.bellcore.com (Robert Amsler) > Has anyone produced a Buck Rogers (TV Series) episode guide? If you mean in book form, yes. If you mean on the computer, not that I've heard of. I have put several guides on the net [Lost In Space, Battlestar Galactica (with a Galactica:1980 appendix), and Space:1999 (actually still in the works)]. Buck Rogers was slated to be worked on in the near future (before or after Batman;it depends on my mood.) As for in print, the Buck Rogers Episode Guide has appeared in an issue of Starlog (I can get the exact # if you want), and was reprinted in their book TV Episode Guides Vol. 2, available at specialty shops and Book Stores, where supplies still exist. It was printed several years back, thus may be hard to track down, but not impossible. B. Daltons or Walden Books are good bets. Hope that helps... Elliott Buchholz ARPA: buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu buc@blue.rutgers.edu UUCP: ...!{harvard|seismo|pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!buchholz PONY EXPRESS: RPO 4014 CN 5063 New Brunswick, NJ 08903 PHONE: (201)-247-6544 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 87 09:56:32 EST From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: V as in Victor During the past year I have noticed many other people have been writing about Doctor Who, Hitchhiker's Guide, Blake's 7, and Tripods. But very little has been said about another great British TV serial, SPACE: 1999. It was made in the late 1970's by the BBC for the American market. I feel that the plots, the special effects, and the acting are outstanding. All right, so it's another one of those "endless-quest" shows. For those of you who don't know the basic plot in the late 20th century mankind main energy source is nuclear fission. A vast waste dump has been made on the dark side of the moon, monitored by Moonbase Alpha on the other side. In the year 1999 men working near the waste dump begin going mad and dying. Yet no radiation is detected. Too late is is discovered that all the various elements have been changing over the years and reacting with the lunite in the moon to cause a vast, sudden increase in magnetic radiation. The waste dump explodes in a huge nuclear fusion blast and the moon is ripped out of Earth's orbit and sent on its journey through the stars with 311 humans "on board." Their incredible struggle for survival against unknown forces in outer space is coupled with periodic passings-by of life-bearing planets. Some Alphans cope well with the strain, others cannot take it and almost cause destruction of the base. The series ended after its second season with the Alphans still not having found a home. Presumably they are still searching for one. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 21:59:50 GMT From: ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall) Subject: Re: Space 1999 (was: V as in Victor) Cyberma@UMass.BITNET writes: > But very little has been said about another great British TV > serial, SPACE: 1999... the moon is ripped out of Earth's orbit > and sent on its journey through the stars with 311 humans "on > board." Of course, no one ever explained how the moon, traveling at much less than C encountered quite a number of inhabited planets in 2 years when the nearest star is about 4 light-years from Sol. Oh Well. Ted Marshall Britton Lee, Inc. p-mail: 14600 Winchester Blvd, Los Gatos, Ca 95030 voice: (408)378-7000 uucp: ...!ucbvax!mtxinu!blia!ted ARPA: mtxinu!blia!ted@Berkeley.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 87 18:38:01 GMT From: jtn@potomac.dc.ads.com (John T. Nelson) Subject: Space 1999... From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu > But very little has been said about another great British TV > serial, SPACE: 1999. It was made in the late 1970's by the BBC for > the American market. I feel that the plots, the special effects, > and the acting are outstanding. I think no one has mentioned it because we're all trying to forget it ;-) Typical Space 1999 plot: Green glowing glob approaches Moonbase Alpha. Scientist proclaims "it's on a direct collision course!" Barbara Bane (not her real name) gets worried and intones woodenly "John, what are we going to do?" Commander Konig mumbles, "it hasn't tried to signal us so IT MUST be hostile" whereupon he dispatches a fleet of Eagle spacecraft to destroy the space menace. Of course the glowing glob reduces all Eagles to glittery sparklers. Green glowing space menace eventually mutilates several Alphans (the British love their gore), steals a carton of ice cream and heads on its way. This leaves Commander Konig and professor what's-his-name to ponder infinite philosophies about other life forms, not that we've learned anything for the hour we've just spent. Ho hum. Actually the special effects WERE outstanding for their time. Excellent model work. Atrocious story-lines. Unbelievably wooden acting. Someone else on the net had asked "has anyone explained how the moon was able to travel to other regions of the galaxy that were light-years distant?" In fact, they tried to explain this in Space 1999's second season. Apparently there are a number of black-holes scattered above the ecliptic of the galaxy enabling one to enter in one region of space and...... John T. Nelson ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 17:13:04 GMT From: lucifer!rob@rutgers.edu ( 237) Subject: Space 1999: not the BBC's cyberma(n?) writes regarding the series 'Space 1999' which he states to be a BBC series for the American market. In fact this was another product of Gerry Anderson's Century 21 Productions company and had no connection with the BBC being initially shown on independent television over here. There was also, I am told, a film which acted as a pilot for the television series and explains how the moon reaches other solar systems before the inhabitants of Alpha die of old age! All in all the whole series looks like 'UFO in space'; even to the extent of using the same control consoles in the control room (the spacecraft look familiar too). As said before they're still looking - perhaps another series will meet them ? :-) P.S. While we're on the subject of Gerry Anderson and following some previous postings this, I believe, is the complete list of his series' as seen on British television. Terrahawks Thunderbirds Space 1999 Stingray UFO Fireball XL5 Joe 90 Supercar Captain Scarlet Four Feather Falls Any comments ? Rob Clive Lucas Micos Ltd., Cirencester, UK. UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!lucifer!rob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 87 17:15:22 EST From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: all must see this I just purchased Doctor Who Monthly #122 MAR 1987 and there is a letter in it I think everyone should read. For those of you who don't/can't get DWM here it is: NO TO WOMAN ...In a succession of articles in my daily, I first heard of Colin Baker's resignation from the series after only being given four episodes to work on. Then we had the usual nonsense about a female Doctor. Now, today, I hear that once again Michael Grade is calling the show stale and considering bringing in the guillotine again. How can the BBC be so naive as to think that it is Colin Baker's fault that the series is losing its customers. There are many factors contributing to this: one-kids prefer the senseless violence of the A-Team, two-television audiences are falling anyway on a Saturday, three-and most importantly, the Beeb don't rate the show high enough to give it a higher budget, which in turn would get better sets, costumes, OBs, and again in turn freer scripts and more intricate direction. Lastly, the BBC still rate the programme as a five-year-old's answer to Star Wars. In a newspaper interview, Michael Grade, when asked about Selina Scott as the Doctor, said that it would be a great idea. She isn't even an actress. Let me kill the idea of a woman Doctor once and for all. Presumably the Doctor was born male. What would the Master be called if he was female - the Mistress? Doesn't have the same ring to it, does it? Presumably this would also mean that Romana would be able to become a seven-foot hunk. And Time Ladies with names like Thalia? More seriously, it would break the LAw of Time. The Time Lord/Lady in question would be able to mate with itself, producing... well, think about it. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone in this letter, but someone has to do it. The magazine is magnificent as usual. Rob Hawkins, Bitterne Park, Southampton. Bravo! I agree with almost every point spoken in this letter, and spoken so well. As Colin Baker said to the audience at a convention in Dorchester of Sept 1986 when asked about Blake's 7 & Doctor Who: "The BBC seems to make a habit of cancelling extremely profitable and popular TV science fiction shows." ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 87 04:11:50 GMT From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: all must see this >I just purchased Doctor Who Monthly #122 MAR 1987 and there is a >letter in it I think everyone should read. For those of you who >don't/can't get DWM here it is: > >NO TO WOMAN > ... > Let me kill the idea of a woman Doctor once and for all. >Presumably the Doctor was born male. What would the Master be >called if he was female - the Mistress? Doesn't have the same ring >to it, does it? Presumably this would also mean that Romana would >be able to become a seven-foot hunk. Er--remember Romana's regeneration scene; one of the forms she decided not to use _was_ around 7 feet tall... >And Time Ladies with names like Thalia? How do you (actually the writer of this letter, but you say you agree with almost everything in it) know Thalia is not a name usable by both genders for Time Lords? Or that Time Lords don't have the option of changing their names? >More seriously, it would break the LAw of Time. The Time Lord/Lady >in question would be able to mate with itself, producing... well, >think about it. Have you read "All You Zombies" by Robert A. Heinlein? (short story) Or "Downtiming the Night Side" by Jack Chalker? (novel) The _real_ reason why a female Doctor is unlikely is the same as the reason why Gallifrey is not filled with alien religions; why the Doctor eats the same types of food as 20th century Western Earthlings; etc... -- the Doctor is, essentially, a 20th century Western-culture Earthling, with only a few details changed. The majority of 20th century Earthlings don't change sex, and therefore neither will the Doctor. (Star Trek suffer[s][ed] from this problem a great deal too.) This is also why the Androgums in the Two Doctors were so ridiculous; since they are caricatures of 20th century Earthlings (and physically resemble them too) their desire to eat 20th century (or other) Earthlings doesn't make much sense. Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701@JHUVM, INS_AKAA@JHUVMS, INS_AKAA@JHUNIX ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 Mar 87 1028-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #91 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Mar 87 1028-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #91 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 91 Today's Topics: Books - McCaffrey (13 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Mar 87 23:35:01 GMT From: okamoto@hpccc.HP.COM (Jeff Okamoto) Subject: Re: Re: Pern (minor spoilers) pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes: >Yes, it is, isn't it? Male children of dragonriders (the only >people she deals with) are named with a combination of their >parents' names, father's first, chosen in such a way that when they >become dragonriders the first vowel can be removed without making >the name unpronounceable. Thus F'lar and Lessa's son was named >Felessan. When he gets a dragon, he will be F'lessan. Thus the >initial "F" is sort of a patronymic. Actually, if I remember a passage in the second book (memory failure), F'lar mentions a child born to Kylara and remarks that he is glad that she went against the normal naming tradition, otherwise the child might be mistaken for his own. This would seem to imply that the first letter of the child's first name is that of the father's. The remaining part of the name is the second syllable of the mother's name. (Thus, Kylara's child would have been named something like T'lar (STIII anybody? :-) and might have been mistaken for F'lar's. This implies that another naming tradition is to take the second half of the father's name for the child's and to change the initial letter(s). BTW, this means that F'lessan's name is also anti-traditional. >Female children are apparently just named anything. Insufficient data. No woman dragonrider gets the honorific contraction. Also, we do not know many (if at all) parents of the women in the series (except for Menolly). >Of course, this raises a real problem. What do a couple call their >second son? There aren't very many ways to combine names as simple >as most Pernese names are... Again, insufficient data. Do we ever know what F'lar and F'nor's mother's name was? Jeff Okamoto hplabs!hpccc!okamoto hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 87 09:04:23 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB) Subject: Re: Pern anomalies (minor spoilers) okamoto@hpccc.HP.COM (Jeff Okamoto) writes: >Shoshana Green writes: >>Yes, it is, isn't it? Male children of dragonriders (the only >>people she deals with) are named with a combination of their >>parents' names, father's first, chosen in such a way that when >>they become dragonriders the first vowel can be removed without >>making the name unpronounceable. Thus F'lar and Lessa's son was >>named Felessan. When he gets a dragon, he will be F'lessan. Thus >>the initial "F" is sort of a patronymic. > >Actually, if I remember a passage in the second book (memory >failure), F'lar mentions a child born to Kylara and remarks that he >is glad that she went against the normal naming tradition, >otherwise the child might be mistaken for his own. > >This would seem to imply that the first letter of the child's first >name is that of the father's. The remaining part of the name is >the second syllable of the mother's name. (Thus, Kylara's child >would have been named something like T'lar (STIII anybody? :-) and >might have been mistaken for F'lar's. This implies that another >naming tradition is to take the second half of the father's name >for the child's and to change the initial letter(s). Kylara's son may have been F'lar's son. However, he was glad that she didn't give him a name which may have indicated his patrimony to remove a reason for Lessa being more jealous than she already was. The naming of Kylara's son with the honorific (apostrophe) was one of several discrepancies which flaw (in a very small way) an otherwise excellent series. (I have said before that I don't generally like series. This is an exception.) Another flaw is that Lytol's dragon was originally green, but was `promoted' to brown in later books. Most of these discrepancies seem to be between the original novellas and the later books. In a prior posting, I mentioned a couple of the physical impossibilities that are in the books. For some reason, they don't bother me nearly as much as the above relatively minor discrepancies. I guess I'm just used to overlooking physical impossibilities in sf. >Do we ever know what F'lar and F'nor's mother's name was? F'nor's mother is Manora, the headwoman of Benden Weyr. F'lar's mother is unknown (he and F'nor were half brothers). Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 87 03:05:53 GMT From: maddox@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Carl Greenberg (guest)) Subject: Re: Re: Pern (minor spoilers) okamoto@hpccc.HP.COM (Jeff Okamoto) writes: >Actually, if I remember a passage in the second book (memory >failure), F'lar mentions a child born to Kylara Thought it was the first book, Dragonflight... >Again, insufficient data. Do we ever know what F'lar and F'nor's >mother's name was? F'lar and F'nor share the same father, not the same mother. Their father was F'lon and F'nor's mother was Manora, headwoman of the Lower Caverns. Carl Greenberg ARPA: maddox@ernie.berkeley.edu UUCP: ...ucbvax!ucbernie!maddox ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 87 04:19:54 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Re: Pern (minor spoilers) F'lar and F'nor are half brothers; they had different mothers. I always saw this as McCaffrey dodging this very question. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 06:55:48 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Re: Pern (minor spoilers) I suspect that such names are parsed for pronuncability. I remember Lessa trying to figure out how to contract Jaxom and failing. F'sa doesnt strike me as pronounceable, so the tradition is mostly a guideline. >>Female children are apparently just named anything. >Insufficient data. No woman dragonrider gets the honorific >contraction. Non-Weyr bred children of either sex seemed to be named just anything too. Jaxom is an example again. >Do we ever know what F'lar and F'nor's mother's name was? I dont remember any mention of who F'lar's mother was. F'nor was his half-brother and the son of MaNORa, the headwoman of the lower caverns at Benden Weyr. Their father was F'lon. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 87 18:02:54 GMT From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu Subject: Re: Re: Pern (minor spoilers) okamoto@hpccc.HP.COM (Jeff Okamoto) writes: >Do we ever know what F'lar and F'nor's mother's name was? As I remember books 1 & 2, F'lar and F'nor had the same father, F'lon. However, I distinctly remember something about F'nor being F'lar's HALF-brother. Furthermore, Book 2 states that Manora was F'nor's mother providing another possible example of how Perneese names are generated. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 20:53:46 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Pern anomalies (minor spoilers) dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: >The naming of Kylara's son with the honorific (apostrophe) was one >of several discrepancies which flaw (in a very small way) an >otherwise excellent series. (I have said before that I don't >generally like series. This is an exception.) Another flaw is >that Lytol's dragon was originally green, but was `promoted' to >brown in later books. Most of these discrepancies seem to be >between the original novellas and the later books. And then there are Lessa's psychic powers, which figure so largely in "Weyr Seacrh"... Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 87 14:15 CDT From: Gleep? <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET> Subject: Anne McCaffrey >I would like to hear if anyone else thought that _Moreta_ was >the best Pern book or not. I think I agree with that. The ending certainly made it one of the most memorable. _Moreta_ differed from the other books in the Pern cycle - I'm not quite sure how to characterize the differences. It was certainly shorter, and, I think, more focused. The other books have several "main" characters - _Moreta_ only has one. You get very involved with her, which makes the ending more intense. I also really enjoyed _Nerilka_ - you see the events in _Moreta_ from a different viewpoint. I was actually very surprised by the Pern books. I first tried to read them many years ago, and just couldn't stand them. I'm not sure exactly why. However, just this past summer, while sick in bed, the only books I had access to were the Pern books (my library was packed up for moving - I had to borrow). I really, really enjoyed them this time around, and highly recommend them. (Are you reading this, Eugene? I'd like to hear if you like them.) Eleanor ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 21:43:00 GMT From: friedman@uiucdcsb.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Pern (dragons) and Re: fantasy On the matter of whether Anne McCaffrey's Pern series (two trilogies; please don't overlook the Harper Hall trilogy) are SF or Fantasy: The dragons' abilities are described in Pernese terms using words you might associate with fantasy literature. But put the Pern stories into the context of McCaffrey's other works. She has done other excellent stories based on psionic powers. Just convert "go between" to "teleport", and you have something compatible with another series of McCaffrey stories. Psionic stories are usually categorized as SF, not as fantasy. She also goes out of her way to make other things fit an SF frame of reference: e.g., the lost science of the "ancients" (the space faring humans who settled Pern); the method of producing flame from dragons. The arguments that McCaffrey's dragons shouldn't be able to fly because they are too big for their wings ignore something basic: she never tells us how big they are, nor how much their wingspread is.... Perhaps the worst scientific problem with Pern is the spatial relationship between the eccentric orbit of the "Red Star" planet and that of Pern. There is also the problem of how the spores manage to leave the atmosphere of the Red Star. I like McCaffrey's work, but I think she goofed here. I've found I enjoy the Pern series if I don't think too much about this aspect. All this may, or may not, be good fictional-science. But in my book (pun intended, and with no apologies, either), it does make for good SF. And for good stories, no matter what you call them. H. George Friedman, Jr. Department of Computer Science University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 1304 West Springfield Avenue Urbana, Illinois 61801 USENET: ...!{pur-ee,ihnp4,convex}!uiucdcs!friedman CSNET: friedman@uiuc.csnet ARPA: friedman@a.cs.uiuc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 22:12:06 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Pern (dragons) and Re: fantasy >Psionic stories are usually categorized as SF, not as fantasy. To misquote Stasheff's "The Wizard Wandering": "He's a wizard." "What!?" "He's a high-powered psionicist". "Oh." >There is also the problem of how the spores manage to leave the >atmosphere of the Red Star. OK, it's time someone gave away the secret. The Red Star used to have a satellite made of pure spore and nothing more: a McCaffrian equivalent of the Mushroom Planet. As you know Roche's Limit for Mushroom Planets is much farther out than it is for regular moons, since they are so much less cohesive. For this reason, the Red Star is surrounded by a cloud of spores at a considerable distance out. (They, of course, are what makes it appear red.) Pern passes near enough to this cloud to draw the spores away from the Red Star. Any other questions? Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 87 16:23:06 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1) From: W.P.Griffin Subject: Re: Pern, etc. allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque): >>You didn't even mention other unscientific aspects of Pern. The >>celestial mechanics (Pern & Red Star) were absolutely ridiculous. >I don't know enough about celestial mechanics to be certain... but >I would not consider it impossible for this to occur. The Red Star >never did show a disk, after all; therefore, it was farther away >from Pern than Luna is from Earth, but probably not as far as Mars >is... Yes, all very fine, the Red Star is probably not as far away as Mars. Have you ever considered how far away Mars is from Earth? Even the moon is (by Earthly standards) an enormous distance to travel. Using the fastest means of travel known to man, it took *days*. To get to Mars would take *months*. Everybody has this image of what the planets look like in relation to each other. Perhaps it looks like this: Earth <----------------------> Mars O <----------------------------> O when in reality, those globes would be microscopic dots on that scale. To me, the idea that a living creature could just reach across that multi-million mile distance is plainly ridiculous. ENU2856%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@UCL-CS.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 87 04:20:51 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Pern anomalies (minor spoilers) sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: > dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: >>The naming of Kylara's son with the honorific (apostrophe) was one >>of several discrepancies which flaw (in a very small way) an >>otherwise excellent series. (I have said before that I don't >>generally like series. This is an exception.) Another flaw is >>that Lytol's dragon was Considering that they name their kids such that the names CAN be contracted, they probably come up with the contracted name and THEN make the full one. Still, your point is made; lost of inconsistencies between DRAGONFLIGHT and the other two. (Anyone else notice that Fall went from ``6 hours when the Red Star is closest'' (DRAGONFLIGHT) to 4 hours (DRAGONQUEST/THE WHITE DRAGON)?) >And then there are Lessa's psychic powers, which figure so largely in >"Weyr Seacrh"... In DRAGONQUEST she "leaned" on the Lord Holders' minds after Jaxom impressed Ruth. I always noticed a similarity between this and "pushing" (cf. King's FIRESTARTER)... It must, however, be remembered that F'lar has Mnementh watching out for her so that he can stop her from psionically manhandling people (recall DRAGONFLIGHT, whenever she tries to use her powers he stops her). It may be concluded that it's frowned upon for poeple to do that... Horrible thought: What if Kylara had had the ability? Certainly she'd not have let F'lar stop her from using it... Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 87 00:31:31 GMT From: israel@brillig (Bruce Israel) Subject: Re: Pern sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >(The short story "The Littlest Dragonrider" contradicted this >slightly by having the main charatcer have an already-contracted >name even though he was not yet a dragon-rider, but the trilogies >hold to this pattern.) As I recall the Littlest Dragonrider, the main character's name was Keevan throughout the story, but after he impressed, Lessa referred to him as K'van. BTW, he appears as a very minor character (non-speaking) in the White Dragon. He's one of the dragonriders who show up in the southern continent to help dig up the "mounds" which were the spaceship ruins. Anyone have any idea if and when a sequel to White Dragon is to come out? Between the spacecraft ruins and the Dawn Sisters which are so obviously man-made satellites, it seems that she was setting things in place for one. Bruce Israel University of Maryland, Computer Science Dept. seismo!mimsy!israel (Usenet) israel@mimsy.umd.edu (Internet) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 Mar 87 1042-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #92 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Mar 87 1042-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #92 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 92 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Mar 87 20:46:17 GMT From: axiom!bill@rutgers.edu (William C Carton) Subject: Re: Boskone The crowd control argument was one that I used to justify ever-larger and later-running film programs at Boskones. The incremental cost of running 'till 5AM wasn't that much, and the oodles of money brought in by the media fen was quite welcome. I was the Boskone film manager from 1974 through 1982, along with Noreascon II. You may have noticed that we ran ALIEN immediately after it won the Hugo next door in the Hynes; that was partially for artistic effect, partially to herd the media fen into the film room instead of the elevators after the Hugo ceremony dumped out. My trusty and loyal inner crew and I did a lot of SMOFFING about the economics of a film-only con, and it was a tempting project. Boskone chairpeople came and went, some more tolerant of a full-blown media program than others. In the darkest moments of NESFA debate, I almost offered to take the film program next door (to whichever hotel the main con was in) and run it privately. After work pressures made me give up running the program, the next few years worth of technical snafus and no-recent-vintage-film policies STILL weren't enough to stem the flow of media fen. I would have responded by returning to the policies that made Boskones grow and prosper: run a quality show, provide rowdies with an occasional turkey to heckle, but ride herd on the audience during the serious films. (My wife and I stopped the projectors more than once in the '70s to admonish the audience.) A film-intensive Boskone may even cost LESS than the latest ones. I usually spent about $1.50-$2.00 per attendee, and delivered a fine sound system and 10-12 feature films. Boskones now spend $2 or so for logistics to haul soda, another $2 per person for publications listing past years' Skylark winners, etc. What with down-sized theatres, the Sheraton Boston's Grand Ballroom was the largest cinema in the city for Labor Day weekend 1980, with the gut-rumbling sound you can't experience anymore in the 'burbs. THAT's what a Con should deliver; an event you can't get in the mundane world. The recent party-fan troubles may only be solved by a closed-hotel policy, where only registered Con members are allowed on the premises. This would be almost impossible in a downtown hotel; more feasable in the nether regions of the state, where the Con has 100.00% of the rooms. For what it's worth........if I were dictator, that's how I'd do it. (ACLU might put up its usual whimper...let THEM put up with the party fans for a year at THEIR annual convention, then they'll change their tune.) Happy filmgoing! Bill Carton Axiom Technology, Newton, MA {allegra,genrad,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!axiom!bill ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 87 15:28:02 EST From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Boskone ANNOUNCEMENT The Sheraton in Boston has said it will not host Boskone next year, nor will it host Noreason in 1989. Large Boston hotels such as the Park Plaza, the Copley Marriott and the Westin have also refused to hold any large SF con. The ostensible reason is discomfort with the idea of a large 24 hour con, but it's a safe bet that the vandalism in the South Tower on Friday night didn't sit too well with the Sheraton. There will be no Boskone memberships accepted until further notice, next year's con will be held somewhere in the Boston suburbs, and will probably be held at a maximum of 2500-3000 people (this year's total attendance was nearly 5000). As for Noreascon, unless MCFI (the group that puts on Noreascon, largely NESFen and NESFA hangers-on) can persuade the Sheraton to relent, there might not be a Worldcon in 1989. The Sheraton-Hynes complex is the only facility in New England large enough to host a Worldcon; the next suitable group] of auditoriums/hotels is in New York, and it's probably too late to reserve it, not to mention that New York would be much more expensive. Looks as if Hoboken in '89 wasn't such a bad idea after all..... ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 87 22:14:42 GMT From: rpiacm!snuggle@rutgers.edu (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report First Suggestion: Split Boskone into two conventions to be held at different times and at different locations. Second Suggestion: Make Boskone bi-annual, thus giving NESFA more time to set things up. Third Suggestion: Make Boskone a floating regional convention in the Northeast. Local SF groups can bid on it like Worldcon and when they win the bid, THEY take off some of the workload from NESFA (yeah, I know, Boskone not held in Boston!! Perish the thought!) Somehow I'd rather see a less frequent convention or a floating one then one that may be ruined by possibly Draconian restrictions. Chris Andersen UUCP: ..!seismo!rpics!rpiacm!snuggle BITNET: userez3l@rpitsmts.bitnet INTERNET: userez3l@itsmts.rpi.edu ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 03:02:39 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Boskone From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu > The Sheraton in Boston has said it will not host Boskone next > year, nor will it host Noreason in 1989. Large Boston hotels such > as the Park Plaza, the Copley Marriott and the Westin have also > refused to hold any large SF con. ... As for Noreascon, unless > MCFI (the group that puts on Noreascon, largely NESFen and NESFA > hangers-on) can persuade the Sheraton to relent, there might not > be a Worldcon in 1989. The Sheraton-Hynes complex is the only > facility in New England large enough to host a Worldcon Before we all go off the deep end, I think a few things are worth mentioning: MCFI has a contract with the Sheraton--they had to to have an official bid. The NESFA "Instant Message" talks about this; they say they are trying for an amicable solution, but I see no evidence that they would not take the Sheraton to court if necessary to make them fulfill their contract. The Hynes is under a separate contract, I believe, and even if the Sheraton were not available, MCFI would have the Hynes. There are many hotels in the area which could be approached (and already have been, as overflow hotels). In any case, MCFI could hold the Worldcon at the Holyoke Chalet Suisse if they had to--Suncon was moved from Orlando to Miami Beach when their hotel went under. It *is* possible than MCFI would be forced to put a cap on membership, but it's really too soon to tell. I suspect there is no contract for Boskone, that being done on a more timely basis. I also think that a lot of what happens with future Boskones and with Noreascon depends on what happens with the next Boskone or two. If NESFA can successfully downscale it and keep it from being the 24-hour-a-day circus that it's become, the hotel might be willing to honor their contract graciously. My understanding (and Don Eastlake can comment on this, as well as everything else) is that their objection was to the round-the-clock staffing that they needed to provide for SF cons that they didn't need to provide to any other convention (for example, NESFA asks that there be a snack bar open all night or until 3AM or some other unusual hour). Noreascon III is almost three years away, certainly time to solve the problems that seem to be surfacing. I have faith that MCFI can solve them. If you don't, don't sign up for Noreascon. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 87 19:39:30 GMT From: sq!becky Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (Rich Kolker) writes: >Still, there are a group of regionals with a long history, Boskone >among them, which I think do have an obligation to serve the total >spread of the science fiction spectrum because of their major >regional status. > ... So this is my point. The major regionals do have an >obligation to cover the full spectrum of sf. ... As far as I can see, you haven't said WHY these cons have this obligation. Suppose I hold a party, and I make it an open party, and lots of people come and we have a great time. I do it again, and we have a great time again. And so on. But the party gets bigger, and a lot of the people I first invited stop coming, because one particular group, that's advertised the party to lots of people of their specialized interests, has grown too large and loud to ignore. The people I want to hold a party for/with no longer feel comfortable, and can no longer talk about the things they're interested in because they're constantly being interupted by people who aren't interested in the same things. Is it my responsibility to continue to hold a party for people I'm not overly interested in seeing? I stop letting just anyone in, and I make the next party `by invitation only', and these people come to my door and tell me I can't do that... I mean, where's their right? It's my party and I'll cry if I want to... A Con that has that strong a rep has a responsibility to advertise changes they're making in their programming goals. Toronto's only local con (boo hoo) is really a party con - or it's seemed so in the past, at any rate - but its advertisements include info about wonderful programming ideas, and interesting, thought-provoking guests... Although I would like to see a Toronto-regional con that caters to people who (can read) enjoy good programming (other than the back-rubbing seminar), Ad Astra has every right to be whatever they want to be. I just wish they'd advertise what they're all about, rather than trying to bring people to a con they might very well not enjoy. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 16:11:04 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: Possible NOREASCON problems with Hotel It's still too early, as I understand there are still negotiations going on, but some early ideas re: If 89 NOT= Boston (due to Hotel Hassles) According to the World Science Fiction Association (WSFA) constitution (not in front of me at this minute, but I looked at it over the weekend) the 89 Worldcon is in the hands of the Boston group until such time as they relinquish it, or a committee made up of the chairs of the existing Worldcon committees decides it is defunct (unlikely at best). There is no requirement I can find in the constitution that MSSF (sp?) hold the convention in Boston, just in the eastern region as defined in the constitution. As past reference I give you 1977, where the con passed through three cities and four hotels on its way to Miami Beach. (or was it Miami?) Therefore, MSFF (I think this one's right) could hold the con in NYC, Baltimore, DC, Philly, etc without turning it over to local bid committees in any of those cities. I think if Boston has become untenable as a site, they'd better act quickly to see of any east coast city has available space sufficient for Worldcon. Of course, if they patch things up with the Sheraton (as I hope they do), all this is moot. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 19:28:20 GMT From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) Subject: Re: Boskone Cyberma@UMass.BITNET writes: >The Sheraton in Boston has said it will not host Boskone next year, >nor will it host Noreason in 1989. Large Boston hotels such as the >Park Plaza, the Copley Marriott and the Westin have also refused to >hold any large SF con. The ostensible reason is discomfort with >the idea of a large 24 hour con, but it's a safe bet that the >vandalism in the South Tower on Friday night didn't sit too well >with the Sheraton. This seems a bit overblown. The Westin has always been too high class for any kind of SF convention and has consistently rejected all approaches. As for the others of the big three, some discussions are still going on and the issue is not settled yet. > There will be no Boskone memberships accepted until further >notice, next year's con will be held somewhere in the Boston >suburbs, and will probably be held at a maximum of 2500-3000 people >(this year's total attendance was nearly 5000). To be precise, no Boskone 25 memberships have been accepted since Feb 28th. Those arriving 1 March or later are being held and will be returned as soon as a cover letter is agreed on. (However, Boskone Life Memberships, currently $360, are still being accepted. That's 20 time the last announced Boskone pre-reg rate of $18. Since it seems very likely that this rate will go up quite a bit, now is the time if you are interested in Life Membership.) Also, at the NESFA Business Meeting held yesterday, a cap of 2000 members was endorsed. A lot of other extremely stringent policies were endorsed, at least for 1988, to get Boskone back under control. Attendance at this year's Boskone was between 4100 and 4200 members plus a number of people who never did join. > As for Noreascon, unless MCFI (the group that puts on Noreascon, >largely NESFen and NESFA hangers-on) can persuade the Sheraton to >relent, there might not be a Worldcon in 1989. The Sheraton-Hynes >complex is the only facility in New England large enough to host a >Worldcon; the next suitable group] of auditoriums/hotels is in New >York, and it's probably too late to reserve it, not to mention that >New York would be much more expensive. Looks as if Hoboken in '89 >wasn't such a bad idea after all..... Bullshit. There are over 8,000 hotel rooms in the Boston area so that even if the currently on-going negotiations with the largest hotels don't work out, enough space could be found. Noreascon has already tentatively increased its space reservation at the John B. Hynes Convention Center from 2/3 to all of the facility so enough function space will be available even if the funciton space in the Sheraton turns out not to be available. The nearest alternative facilities are probably Hartford Connecticut, not NYC, and in any case, in the unlikely event that the convention has too move, there are plenty of large hungry convention complexes around the eastern US that would probably love the business. Donald E. Eastlake, III +1 617-492-8860 ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 06:23:43 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Possible NOREASCON problems with Hotel I've been told that Noreascon and their lawyers have gone to the hotels and the Chamber of Commerce and pointed out that (1) they have a legal contract, that (2) the hotel has no legal right to void that contract, that (3) that the city is due to reap in about $10,000,000 from Noreascon, and (4) if they DON'T honor their contract, a large (they are estimating 9,000 attending for Noreascon) bunch of noisy and influential people will be screaming about how nasty Boston is in years. If the legal contract doesn't get them, do you really think the CoC will let them cancel out ten million dollars in revenue for the city? hah. (for reference, the Noreascon budget is about $1,000,000, even before they sell their first restaurant meal or hotel room). I expect it'll be in Boston when all of this blows over. Boskone is another matter. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 Mar 87 1101-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #93 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Mar 87 1101-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #93 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 93 Today's Topics: Books - Kurtz (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Mar 87 03:49:17 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes: >>But the power rituals are for the Haldane power, which comes >>full-blown at the moment of assumption. [ I wrote this - Shoshanna >>] >Right. Warin is an example of what happens if you have the talent >without the training. Also, we've seen several cases of men with >the potential being 'easy to train'. I don't see how Warin follows, here. Are you saying that Warin has the "Haldane-type" power? Are you claiming, then, that he probably went through a Haldane-type power ritual? Or are you saying that Warin is actually Deryni (my own theory--imagine his face! He and Jehana could start their own support group...) Note that the Haldane power ritual actually has two parts. The first usually occurs early in the life of the heir, and serves to set the powers; that is to say, to create he potential for their later assumption. The second is what I have been calling the ritual of assumption, and serves to trigger the powers, after which they are available for use. For example, Cinhil's children's powers are set when they are very young. Presumably the form of the assumption ritual is determined at that time; recall that Brion had arranged a specific ritual for Kelson, and much of "Deryni Rising" hung on whether Morgan et al. could figure it out. Sometimes the two parts of the ritual happen together; Cinhil's, for example. Sometimes they are separated by years; the Haldane heir usually has his powers set in infancy and triggered when he ascends the throne. >The Haldane ritual can be explained in one, or both, of two ways, I >think. a) It functions primarily to remove a *suppression* applied >specially to the Haldanes because of the explosive potential of >having too many people in the same family with powers. An interesting idea. In fact, perhaps the first part of the ritual is the suppression, with specific triggers set to avoid accidental triggering. However, this would have to be a recent pattern; certainly no-one at the Restoration was worrying about having to *suppress* Haldane power. (The Regents, on the other hand... I always wondered if they tried to suppress the semi-Deryni abilities of the princes. If they even knew about them...) >b) It invokes divine aid in providing 'training' along with access >to the simple power. Do you mean that the ritual functions partly as a prayer for guidance (no argument there), or that it literally and reliably summons divine aid, and that that's how the Haldanes know immediately how to use their power? Argument there. >We see that the Haldane situation is special when we are told that >Conal, as heir, is *expected* to be picking up some powers simply >by virtue of being heir. Surely in no other family do men begin to >gain the power because their legal status has changed. Well, but this expectation isn't surprising. Everyone thinks of the Haldane powers as divine aspects of kingship. Not just the peasantry, but everyone, although knowledgable people like Morgan & Duncan may be open to other ideas as well. Even the Camberian Council has a superstitious fear of more than one Haldane even attempting to hold power simultaneously, probably because such an attempt is tantamount to setting oneself up as equal to the King. (Imagine if a Catholic bishop claimed that he too could speak infallibly _ex_cathedra_.) Of course, some members of the Council are more enlightened than others :-) I don't think that Haldane men (women? Never been a reigning queen that we know of) actually begin to gain their powers when their legal status changes, except in that they expect to. Although the triggers could be set in infancy to effect this; since the powers are psionic/psychological/mind-controlled, it should be possible to have the knowledge that one is the heir have an effect. >By the way, not to complicate matters or anything, but it seems >fairly clear that there is no such thing as 'Deryni' powers as >opposed to 'human' powers. Sure. No one in this universe claims that Deryni and humans are different species; they interbreed! But there do seem to be qualitative differences between "Haldane-type" powers and "Deryni-type" powers. Haldane-type powers are set and triggered by rituals. They are comprised of a certain number of clearly-defined abilities with, from the moment of triggering, knowledge of their use when they are needed. Deryni-type powers arise spontaneously, like any normal talent, and require training in their use for any kind of real competence. Whether all humans (persons without Deryni-type power) can assume Haldane-type power is unknown. Certainly it is nearly treason and blasphemy in some circles to suggest it. >I can't imagine any mechanism for evolving such a sophisticated >complex of *potential* powers. So it follows that at one time >untrained but usable powers were fairly common. Three mechanisms >suggest themselves for causing these powers to be lost. a) >Intermarriage [ ... deleted ... ] b) At some point in history the >powers became countersurvival, and only those whose abilities were >blocked/impaired survived. There's an interesting story in that. >Maybe the healers of that day *induced* the blockage. *** SPOILER FOR CAMBER THE HERETIC *** Well, Deryni powers were certainly counter-survival in 918, and the Healers did discover a way to do just that. Even then, however, Deryni were only a small fraction of the population, not "fairly common". *** END SPOILER *** > c) The loss of power goes back to prehistoric times, to the >extinction of some plant that had once been a fairly common part of >the human diet and which supplied a missing enzyme. The Deryni are >descended from those who manufactured their own. This is the >explanation I prefer, although it contains some serious weaknesses >too.) Then you have reduced the problem of a gene for Deryniness to that of a gene for the enzyme production. Wow, this is fun. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 87 04:13:01 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >** Some spoilers for Quest for St. Camber herein ** >beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes: >>As far as the Y chromosone goes - although that possibility >>bothered me through most of my first reading of Bishop's Heir - >>Dughal never went through anything aproaching a power activation >>ritual. I dont think that a mind link would satisfy the >>requirements of an effective ritual (whatever they are exactly - >>but Camber or Rhys made sure to brief Cinhil on them to make sure >>he knew - so they are probably not perfectly straitforward) > >But the power rituals are for the Haldane power, which comes >full-blown at the moment of assumption. Regular Deryni powers arise >slowly (if at all) and require formal training. Dhugal has no need >for a power ritual because he does not carry the "Haldane-type" >power. (As far as we know... gosh, this is almost as much fun as >Watchmen speculation! :-) ) That's what I was saying. I apparently wrote that too late at night and didn't express myself clearly. The block was in response to a the previous poster's suggestion that Dhugal might have the Y chromosone type power. I also said that by now it has been pretty well established that Dhugal is Deryni. >Now, this raises two questions: >1) How did training help Conal, if the Haldane power arrives >full-blown? 2) How did Conal get his powers without a power >ritual? I suspect that the answers to one and two essentially that Tiercil probably did a lot of poking around in Conall's head before any results were obtained. I even think it says such somewhere in the King's Justice. I dont think that Tiercil put Connal through any sort of formal ritual - mostly because Tiercil didnt know enough at the start to formulate an effective one. However in poking around looking for how to do it and experimenting he probably satisfied the requirements. Remember the Council doesnt have a good theorectical background on such things as Camber or even Wencit of Torenth. Some of this may come from having more of an open mind. >Well, since no one knows why it is that the Haldanes are able to >assume power anyway, this isn't a problem, it just goes under >"insufficient data" and gets speculated about. Camber et al. just >happened to notice that something about Cinhil made him able to >have some Deryni powers "implanted"; I don't think they even knew >at the type that the ability was inherited, let alone sex-linked. >(Is it? The characters think so, but they aren't always right...) I forget what article or letter I mentioned it in so I'll say it again. Katheryn told me quote: "Nobody in this universe understands genetics." refering to the Deryni universe of course. General belief seems to recognize that the Haldane power descends in the male line. However until the events of the Quest for St. Camber graphicly proved otherwise the self proclaimed experts believed that only one Haldane could have the power at one time. Only Tiercil and Wencit seemed convinced that more than one could. Although Kelson had no problem with the concept of giving Nigel partial power. >Maybe this ties in with the healing powers of Warin de Grey >(remember him?). It has been occasionally speculated that anyone >can receive "Haldane-type" powers. Also recall Bran Coris. I seem to recall Morgan mentioning in Deryni Checkmate that there were other families with haldane-like potential. The Hort of Orsal's family was among such. My personal theory is that the power potential is associated with the human ruling houses of the original eleven kingdoms. Those that had human ruling families that is. (I dont think Torenth ever had one) Thus Bran Corus probably had the potential through descent from Seighere of Marley and the Rulers of Eastmarch. A strong correlation like this would not be due to chance in that powerful charisma seems to go along with the potential and thus such families would tend to become leaders. >Conal's "Haldane-type" power presumably requires a power ritual. >Perhaps he and his mentor went through one; we never see how they >met and began training him. Or perhaps Deryni blood in the Haldane >line cropped up and Conall was exercising "Deryni-type" power >instead of "Haldane-type" power as everyone assumed. (I hope my >terminology is clear here.) >>3. "Where do you think the Second Sight comes from?", answered >>Katheryn Kurtz to the question stated above. > >What question was this? I didn't follow you. I suggested in a >recent posting that the border "second sight" might well come from >Deryni intermixing. The question was about Dhugal's being Deryni when he shouldnt be. I think the way we phrased the inquiry at the con mentiond that there must be a lot of Deryni blood in the borders. >>4. Someone should check to see if Calder of Scheel is Deryni and >> if he is find out who got him past ordination. > >Unfortunately most of my books are 3000 miles away and can't be >sent. Could you remind me who Calder of Scheel is? (now ex-)Bishop Calder of Scheel is Maryse MacArdry's maternal uncle. and thus Dhugal's great-uncle. If you keep the genetics then Maryse must be an XX' deryni (Caulay wasnt deryni) Maryse's mother is either XX' or X'X' (depending on whether one or both of her parents were deryni) thus Calder has an at least 50% chance of being deryni. Of course the fact that he made it into the priesthood indicates that he isnt unless someone intervened. He doesnt appear to be a likely canidate for a miricle. >And I do hope you've read "The Priesting of Arilan." As far as I >can tell, that was a genuine miracle. I've read all the Deryni stories in print. Except possibly for some things that have appeared in the fanzine "Deryni Chronicles" or "Deryni Archives" I forget the exact title. (no I'm not talking about the anthology) Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 87 17:59:42 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) How does this sound? 1. All humans have some potential for Deryni powers. This is why Deryni can draw upon 'normal' humans for their strength and support in working exhausting 'spells'. However, most humans cannot use this potential. I suggested in an earlier posting that, since a single gene seems to make the difference between having and not having a host of usable powers, that gene probably serves to unblock a potential which already exists in most humans. 2. Anyone with either the Deryni X gene or the Haldane Y gene has access to those Deryni powers. Typically, training is required. Those with the gene and without the training will sometimes be able to use their powers in an instinctive, often unsophisticated way. Warin's healing, Jehana's attempt to fight, the second sight...No power-assumption ritual is needed in either case. There are indications that, without training, the X gene tends to confer significantly more usable powers than the Y gene. 3. All Haldane males have the Haldane Y gene, and therefore have the Deryni potential. Since all but the king believe themselves powerless, they generally are, though the power may be awakened by training, need, belief or stimulation. No power assumption ritual is needed. 4. The Haldane power assumption ritual has two purposes. One is to stimulate the subject's dormant powers. To the extent that the barriers to the use of that power are psychological, the ritual must be quite dramatic. The other is to instill in the subject the equivalent of a program of training in the use of those powers. (Not too much theory seems to be transferred. The subject probably can't accomplish things which require subtle spells. However, anything that can be accomplished by raw power becomes available.) I suggested that the ritual invokes divine aid to achieve this. Unfortunately, I have to agree that the aid in question is not subject to invocation. Still, the knowledge must have a source. I'll point out that every instance of the ritual which we've seen includes at least one person well versed in the use of Deryni powers. Perhaps, although the participants are not aware of it, the ritual causes a direct transfer of *skill* from the adept to the subject. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 87 21:12:03 GMT From: elliott@aero.ARPA (Ken Elliott) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes: >By the way, not to complicate matters or anything, but it seems >fairly clear that there is no such thing as 'Deryni' powers as >opposed to 'human' powers. The inheritance patterns of the powers >back up the claim that a single gene may be responsible. (As they >should, since the patterns and the claim come from the same >author.) But it seems absurd to claim that a single gene can grant >telepathy, teleportation, mind control, fire-and-lightning, a >serious merasha allergy, and what have you. Hmmmm, interesting thought; I can't remember if any of the Haldane line has ever been exposed to merasha. If Deryni and human (i.e., Haldane) powers are really different, then I claim that the human wouldn't be affected. Might be interesting if they were affected, though. That brings up the question of what would (could) be merasha's affect on a Haldane that has 'assumed' the powers (or has had some manifestation of them), as opposed to one who hasn't. Then there's always the color difference when the 'different' powers are being used ("Get'chor Color Spectrumizer Here! Only a buck! You can't tell the players without a Spectrumizer..." :-) ). Ken Elliott elliott@aerospace.ARPA elliott!aero.UUCP ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 Mar 87 1131-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #94 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Mar 87 1131-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #94 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 94 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Fanzines (2 msgs) & Looking for Opinions & Abbreviations & What Gets You First (4 msgs) & UFO's & Star-drives ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Feb 87 05:30:04 GMT From: 6103014@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Harold Feld) Subject: Request for Fanzine Info Does anyone out there know of a fanzine(s) interested in a Dr Who story? Could be either a specificaly Who zine or just a random media zine that has run Who stories in the past. Please e-mail rather than post. Thanx in advance. HAROLD FELD BITNET: 6103014@PUCC (PREFERABLY) UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6103014 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 87 13:04 EDT From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: fanzines.. I am currently engaged in a sociological study of the type of people who produce fanzines. More specifically, I am interested in the differences between fanzines produced primarily by females and those produced primarily by males. How can you help? Well, though it sounds rather presumptuous of me to ask, what I am interested in is some input on fanzines from people who either read, produce or contribute to them. It is my humble premise that 'zines produced primarily by women are substantially different then those produced primarily by men. I would like to take some prime examples of both, for comparison and anlysis. I have already been informed by one or two kindly souls of some titles to look for, but what I would like are the names of both recent and 'classic' 'zines. What I am after names that are highly regarded, well-known 'zines and the like. Names and addresses of well-known 'zine producers would be VERY appreciated. To my knowledge, the only major piece of research on the subject was a book from the early seventies called "Fanzines: A Special Form of Communication", by Dr. Frederick Wertham (yes, that one). If people could respond to me with suggestions, names, addresses and the like to my net address, I'd be most appreciative. sincerely, Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: 4 Mar 87 00:16:25 GMT From: jhunix!ins_atty (Clisair) Subject: Looking for Opinions of material for book I need help in completing, or rather writing my book called, "Elisarian Chronicles of Time". I posted an article on it and then for some reason it got dumped. Now I don't know how this happened, but I would appreciate your reading this one and then writing me back. I could really use the help in this by you using the information provided here to come up with short stories. Or I could send you a more complete and detailed file that you could work from. All that I ask is that you give me a chance. This could actually turn out to be fun. Who knows, it could turn into another THIEVES WORLD, or something like that. And I know that out there somewhere there has to be people who love to write, but could not think of something to write about. Well!!!! here is something just for you. Information that you can write from. So once again I ask you to give me a chance, send me something or at the least, talk about me over the net. **** ELISAIRIAN CHRONICLES OF TIME *** prolog We live our lives in darkness, even though we perceive it as light. For death is darkness,even as we are dark. Every place we turn, we spread this darkness, which gives light to death. In this we gain true light. VOL II ELISARIAN BOOKS OF SCIENCE SPEAKER: CELONE, KING OF ELVES As I sit here reflecting on the past, I begin to wonder: What is it that causes pain to spread between people like an infectious virus? They cheat and lie to one another as if it is a favorite past-time to cause and receive pain. Even in myself I have seen this at times. But, now that I am many years older, I begin to understand. (The years are not as yours, for in a day, months have past here) People need love, and so when they cannot find it, they seek pain. Then those with pain find themselves unable to love anyone, least of all themselves. In this way more pain is caused to spread between nations. This is an account that many will find fictitious and bizarre, but it is true in a very real sense of the word. Many have visited my lands, and have shown it to others. So as you read these words, you who are my subjects (and those who are not) you will begin to understand what my words mean. So I now give to you my heritage taught and shown to me through the memories of my ancestors in myself, not as I have lived, but as they themselves have lived to pass on to me, their son. For I am their promised King without a throne, but throne and crown I shall once again find. Then none shall stop me from claiming my destiny. Now that I have given you these words, I hope they give meaning to all those who love life. They are also the beginnings of my tale of that of my ancestors, and the rise and fall of the elven peoples of the most ancient of times in earth. Their loves, hates and deepest felt emotions are within these pages; and I charge you who read them to keep them alive in your harts and minds, seeing that they are real. Lord William Clisair I King of the Elven Nations These are the first few opening words of a novel I am Presently working on. I present them to you for opinions, criticisms, or what ever. Any and all ideas are welcome, who knows, I may even use them and mention you as well. The reason I am asking you is that I need some fresh ideas to work with, as well as keys to unlock and release the flow of words that are locked up inside me. BRIEF REVIEW OF CHARACTERS ELISAIR founder of Elisaria and first king CELLONE Elisair's friend, second king until he died in battle against Count Deimitria CLISAIR Cellone's transdimensional son from twentieth century Earth, later King of all elves TIERRA Cellone's wife stranded on earth who finally gave birth to Clisair before rejoining her husband in Elisaria TRIARRA Clisair's daughter and Count Deimitria's wife which came about in an alliance to win war with northern nations at war with Elisaria during time of peace with the Count MARC Clisair's estranged son cause of his lust for his sister. Banished to earth, but returns with a lust for Clisair's blood CLISAIR II Crown Prince to throne of Elisaria, but due to the Count's mischief, is trapped into going to earth, only to find that when he goes back, he is in a different version of Elisaria called Elisair where he is hated by all but the Count Deimitry, the likeness of his enemy and just as evil GALANA sister of Mirra, maried to here nephew Marc HIRRA wife of Clisair, Daughter of Elisair COUNT DEIMITRIA Sorcerer from same time period as Clisair who is attempting to take over Elisaria KING VALKIRROC Vampiric king of Direthorn (i.e. Black Forest) He is somewhat Clisair's ally etc...... Story starts in 12 BC in the English Islands with war having just started between men and elves, due to the advancement in the elven society upon the land of men. Elves defeated and begin to plan a retaliation war when Elisair shows up and leads them to Elisar instead. After the rise of the empire under Cellon and Tierra's return to Elisar and both their deaths, scene switches to earth, 20 th century where a young couple adopt a newborn child named William Clisair. Liking the name already given they just add their last name and called him Clisair from then on. Within months the child begins to manifest strange unnatural powers and abilities over nature. The story would then develop to show how he grew up and his eventual rise to the throne of Elisar. BRAIN STORM What do you think of possible writing short stories and then putting them into a continuous book form. I have all the necessary information in the form of a time table as well as a list of some of the names and descriptions of the names of different people and places as well as a detailed map of Elisaria So PLEASE send me your responses so the work can continue Wm. Drummond BITNET: INS_ATTY@JHUVMS.BITNET ins_atty@jhunix.BITNET UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs! allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_atty ihnp4!whuxcc! ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 22:46:43 GMT From: reed!jean@rutgers.edu (R.James Rudden) Subject: abbreviations I have a complaint about a number of the postings in this newsgroup: the over-use and abuse of abbreviations. I just read an article on Heinlein's books that refered to 3 or 4 books by using the first letter of each word. Now, I don't know about all you, but I have only read 2 or 3 of Heinlein's novels and I certainly would not be able to recognize one whose title I may have heard, simply by the "initials". Please, if you are refering to a book or movie, even if it is one that you believe everyone who reads SF should have read, or should have seen, call it by name. If you refer to the same work later in the article, then it is cool to use an abbreviation. Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 16:43:07 GMT From: guest@ssl-macc.co.uk (Guest Account) Subject: What gets you first ? I was just wondering ... If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit, what is the result ? I'm well aware that the outlook is not good, :-), but what is it that kills you ? There seem to be a whole list of candidates, such as going "POP" in a messy way, or something subtle, (but equally nasty), like boiling blood. However, some of these will take longer than others, and I'm interested to know which one gets you first. Does it make any difference if you are "near" a star, in deep space, or in the shade of a spaceship ? (I imagine I'd get a serious reply from one of the sci. groups but they might regard it as frivolous :-) ). Mike Horner Software Sciences Ltd London & Manchester House Park Street Macclesfield, UK. TEL: +44 625 29241 EMAIL:guest@ssl-macc.co.uk UUCP: mcvax!ukc!sslvax!guest ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 87 22:39:41 GMT From: percival!leonard@rutgers.edu (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: What gets you first ? guest@ssl-macc.co.ukwrites: >If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit, >what is the result ? ... According to various sources (including a number of tests back in the '50s) exposure to vacuum is a major *inconvenience*. You aren't likely to go 'pop' as your skin is capable of handling the pressure differential. This also puts boiling blood pretty far down the list. If you are in 'sunlight' close to a star you may have trouble with massive sunburn. The most likely results would be a race between lack of oxygen and ruptured lungs (which would result in hemorrhaging. ie you bleed to death). A couple details often overlooked are what happens to all the gas in your digestive system. (massive belching and flatulence). And you are quite likely to rupture your eardrums. And if you have clogged sinuses...well not any more you don't... Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 23:15:09 GMT From: bnrmtv!perkins@rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins) Subject: Re: What gets you first ? > If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit, > what is the result ? I'm well aware that the outlook is not good, > :-), but what is it that kills you ? Here's what I think happens: All the air rushes out of your lungs FAST. You shouldn't have any problems if your mouth is open. You run low on oxygen in your blood, and pass out. Your blood starts to boil. You die. Depending on your nearness to a sun, your body gets baked/frozen. Henry Perkins {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 08:05:43 GMT From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: What gets you first ? guest@ssl-macc.co.uk writes: > If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit, > what is the result ? I'm well aware that the outlook is not good, > :-), but what is it that kills you ? Oh boy, the great vacuum breathing debate again. I really should know better, but... Part of it depends on what you're breathing (actually, more on the pressure). If you're on pure O2 at, say, 3 psi, you should experience a bit of discomfort (but no explosion). After about 15 to 30 seconds, you lose consciousness (oxygen deprivation). Then you die. The amount of discomfort experienced would depend on whether you were ready for the decompression. Your eardrums might pop, and your vocal cords could get mangled if you were trying to hold your breath. I don't know if holding your breath after you take a nice big breath of vacuum would give you any extra seconds or not. Certainly you don't want to try holding it before you exhale. At higher pressures (14.7 psi, Oxygen-nitrogen) the explosive decompression would be a real problem. You might have time to get the bends before you pass out. I don't know if anyone has been cruel enough to subject monkeys to explosive decompression from one atmosphere or not. What other problems? Assuming you dive from air-lock to air-lock and survive (15 to 30 seconds is a long time for certain activities) you might have some problems with minor hemorrhages and sunburn (I don't know about the hemorrhages, either. Someone was doing some experiments with leaky space suits. They seemed to work pretty well, according to the report). david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 87 20:40 MST From: "James J. Lippard" Subject: Re: UFOs From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer) > If you want to be convinced that UFO's are real, read > _Aliens_in_the_Skies by John G. Fuller. It leaves little room for > doubt. Ah yes... John Fuller, former writer for Candid Camera, now full-time writer of pseudoscience. He wrote INCIDENT AT EXETER and THE INTERRUPTED JOURNEY (both about UFOs), ARIGO: SURGEON OF THE RUSTY KNIFE (about a since-debunked "psychic surgeon"), MY STORY (about phony psychic Uri Geller), and the wildly exaggerated WE ALMOST LOST DETROIT (about the October 1966 accident at the Fermi I nuclear reactor). If you want to read the skeptical viewpoint about UFOs, read some books by Philip Klass and James Oberg. Jim Lippard LIPPARD@MULTICS.MIT.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 87 13:02 EST From: Allan C. Wechsler Subject: Star-drives The person who brought up this subject mentioned relativity as a problem only in connection with "warp drive". Once again, with a weary sigh, we must repeat: Relativity is a "problem" with /any/ form of faster-than-light travel. If relativity is true (and all the evidence says it is) then /any/ form of FTL violates causality exactly as much as time travel does. It doesn't matter whether you use wormholes, parallel spaces with different laws, or transfer booths: FTL, causality, and relativity cannot all be true. You must throw out one of the three. (It would be interesting to classify star-travel stories into four groups: those that exclude FTL, those that dump causality, those that deny relativity, and those that don't choose to face the issue. The first and last would be the big winners.) Now, I enjoy FTL stories a /lot/. But as long as we are listing problems with different kinds of star drives, we /must/ list relativity next to every form of FTL. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Mar 87 0907-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #95 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Mar 87 0907-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #95 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 95 Today's Topics: Books - Kurtz (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Mar 87 23:36:46 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes: >General belief seems to recognize that the Haldane power descends >in the male line. However until the events of the Quest for St. >Camber graphicly proved otherwise the self proclaimed experts >believed that only one Haldane could have the power at one time. >Only Tiercil and Wencit seemed convinced that more than one could. >Although Kelson had no problem with the concept of giving Nigel >partial power. What they were giving him was mostly (only?) the first part of the Haldane ritual, where the potential is set up. A bit of it might have been available, but not the full-blown power. >I seem to recall Morgan mentioning in Deryni Checkmate that there >were other families with haldane-like potential. The Hort of >Orsal's family was among such. Very true, so it was. >My personal theory is that the power potential is associated with >the human ruling houses of the original eleven kingdoms. Those >that had human ruling families that is. (I dont think Torenth ever >had one) Thus Bran Corus probably had the potential through descent >from Seighere of Marley and the Rulers of Eastmarch. A strong >correlation like this would not be due to chance in that powerful >charisma seems to go along with the potential and thus such >families would tend to become leaders. I don't think Torenth is one of the Eleven Kingdoms. Aren't the so-called "Eleven Kingdoms" the small kingdoms over which the king of Gwynedd, which is one of them, is high king? Kelson is king of Gwynedd, and therefore overlord of the kings of Llanadd, Howice, and all the others whose names I can't remember because they're mostly unimportant. (For instance, the Princess Janniver's father is a king who owes fealty to Kelson.) We haven't really seen much of the political organization of the Eleven Kingdoms (except as it relates to Meara!); some of this is extrapolated from what we've been told... >(now ex-)Bishop Calder of Scheel is Maryse MacArdry's maternal >uncle. and thus Dhugal's great-uncle. If you keep the genetics >then Maryse must be an XX' deryni (Caulay wasnt deryni) Maryse's >mother is either XX' or X'X' (depending on whether one or both of >her parents were deryni) thus Calder has an at least 50% chance of >being deryni. Of course the fact that he made it into the >priesthood indicates that he isnt unless someone intervened. He >doesn't appear to be a likely canidate for a miricle. I think that later books, since the postscript on genetics was published, have pretty much forced us not to rely on it as an explanation of Deryni inheritance. (Has anyone specifically asked her if she still means to hold to it?) I went and looked Calder up in the index to people in Quest, and it's *real* unlikely that a Deryni would side with Loris, don't you think? And if he's a Deryni and doesn't know it, how did he get past ordination? Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 87 23:48:24 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) elliott@aero.UUCP (Ken Elliott) writes: >Hmmmm, interesting thought; I can't remember if any of the Haldane >line has ever been exposed to merasha. Holy Camber, yes! Remember King Brion? Remember how he died? Remember *why* he died? Remember Morgan pulling out a flask of wine and saying "This is what killed your father"? There is good circumstantial evidence that Brion was not Deryni. Surely Morgan would have noticed it. Besides their life-long friendship, Morgan guided Brion through his power assumption ritual (as documented as in the short story "Swords Against the Marluk" in the theme anthology "Barbarians"). It is unquestionable, however, that merasha does not affect normal humans as it affects "Haldanes" and Deryni. ("Haldanes" is in quotes because I mean any people with the "Haldane-type" power, not necessarily descendants of that line.) For normal humans, it is just a mild sedative, with no harmful effects. So why does it affect "Haldanes"? Don't you wish the characters knew more genetics and biology, so that they'd start asking some of these questions and we could maybe find out? >That brings up the question of what would (could) be merasha's >affect on a Haldane that has 'assumed' the powers (or has had some >manifestation of them), as opposed to one who hasn't. Now *there's* a good question... >Then there's always the color difference when the 'different' >powers are being used ("Get'chor Color Spectrumizer Here! Only a >buck! You can't tell the players without a Spectrumizer..." :-) ). I don't recall a consistent color differentiation between "Haldane" and "Deryni" powers, which I gather is what you mean. The color differences between Kelson's and Charissa's spells I took to be due to the fact that they were using different spells (and to the fact that KK had not worked everything out at that point). Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!) UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 87 23:59:56 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) I believe that Camber et al. consciously implanted in Cinhil a clearly-defined set of abilities, passing their own knowledge to him after choosing a set of powers that would be congenial (Deryni powers congenial to Cinhil?! You know what I mean: appropriate and useful to a human king). Since each king since then seems to have set the triggers for his heir (in the first part of the ritual, in infancy), this knowledge may well have been passed down that way, with or without the knowledge of the assisting Deryni, if any. We simply don't have enough data to formulate a really good theory; we've only seen a few such rituals and they haven't been what you could call typical (Kelson was Deryni, which might have changed things, Cinhil was the first ever and no one really knew what they were doing...) Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!) UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 87 23:36:34 GMT From: ee2131ab@ariel.unm.edu (Apollo) Subject: Mersha (was ...) >Hmmmm, interesting thought; I can't remember if any of the Haldane >line has ever been exposed to merasha. If Deryni and human (i.e., >Haldane) Wasn't Kelson's father (can't remember his name) exposed to Mersha in the first book which helped to lead to his death. Mark Giaquinto {ucbvax:gatech:unm-la:lanl}!unmvax!izar!cs2633bg cs2633bg@izar.UNM.EDU {ucbvax:gatech:unm-la:lanl}!unmvax!ariel!ee2131ab ee2131ab@ariel.UNM.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 18:45:25 GMT From: sdcrdcf!markb@rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >I believe that Camber et al. consciously implanted in Cinhil a >clearly-defined set of abilities, passing their own knowledge to >him after choosing a set of powers that would be congenial (Deryni >powers > ... this knowledge may well have been passed down that way, with >or without the knowledge of the assisting Deryni, if any. We simply >don't have enough data to formulate a really good theory; we've >only seen a few such rituals and they haven't been what you could >call typical (Kelson Also notice that the Eye of Rolm has been a part of every power ritual and that a crystal would be a good place to store a whole lot of information. As to the evolution of the whole spectrum of powers, you only need to evolve one power first: Telekinetic power on a very low energy level. Then wishing hard enough and subconscious manipulation of genes gets you everything else. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 87 22:23:37 GMT From: percival!leonard@rutgers.edu (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes: >... But it seems absurd to claim that a single gene can grant >telepathy, teleportation, mind control, fire-and-lightning, a >serious merasha allergy, and what have you. ... > >... I can't imagine any mechanism for evolving such a >sophisticated complex of *potential* powers. ... From some 'hints' in the Camber trilogy and from the obvious importance of religion in the books (esp. the incidence of 'divine intervention') I'm inclined to believe that the Deryni gene is the result of an 'Act of God' at some point in the past. (my money is on something during or shortly after Christ's lifetime) There are a *lot* of unanswered questions from the Camber books. Such as that cubical 'checkboard' ward pattern.... There just isn't enough TIME for some things to have happened (you think maybe they developed all this overnight?) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 06:14:02 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Saint Bearand Haldane Recently I posted a comment saying that I thought Bearand Haldane might have been Deryni (or did I just mail it to someone? I forget). Since then I have gotten a clue (i.e. I went to a bookstore today and looked at the family trees) and realized that this is impossible, or at least *real* unlikely. Bearand was the father of Ifor, killed in the Festillic takeover. I had misremembered him as being several generations further back. The Haldane line is firmly believed to be human at the time; while it's conceivable that Bearand was Deryni, it's unlikely (and practically certain that he didn't know it if he was). Which still leaves the question: why was he canonized? (Miracles apparently aren't necessary for canonization in the Eleven Kingdoms; we never hear of the late Bishop Istelyn performing any. I thought that the Catholic Church required evidence of miracles to canonize someone (in our universe, this is); can anyone knowledgable say whether this is so?) Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!) UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 16:50:24 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Information (was Bishop's Heir) Mark Biggar writes >As to the evolution of the whole spectrum of powers, you only need >to evolve one power first: Telekinetic power on a very low energy >level. Then wishing hard enough and subconscious manipulation of >genes gets you everything else. One of the nice contributions of Jack Chalker's works is the clear realization that 'magic' requires information. Poof! you're a frog...now where did I learn enough about the genetic structure of a frog to turn you into a functional amphibian? In this case, how does telekinesis, plus my subconscious wish for, say, telepathy, allow me to subconsciously choose to change *that* gene sequence from GGTAC to GTTAC? Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 13:45:51 GMT From: diku!rancke@rutgers.edu (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) Subject: Re: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes >Or are you saying that Warin is actually Deryni (my own >theory--imagine his face! He and Jehana could start their own >support group...) No, Kelson examines Warin and determines that he is not Deryni. Everyone are puzzled by this but files it under "yet more unexplained facts". As far as I know, nothing more has been said about this. And then there is Bran Coris. He too seems to be a human with "powers" although it seems he had been given them by that Deryni king (I forget his name --- Wencit?). In reply to Dani Zweig's: >>By the way, not to complicate matters or anything, but it seems >>fairly clear that there is no such thing as 'Deryni' powers as >>opposed to 'human' powers. >Sure. No one in this universe claims that Deryni and humans are >different species; they interbreed! But there do seem to be >qualitative differences between "Haldane-type" powers and >"Deryni-type" powers. Haldane-type powers are set and triggered by >rituals. They are comprised of a certain number of clearly-defined >abilities with, from the moment of triggering, knowledge of their >use when they are needed. Deryni-type powers arise spontaneously, >like any normal talent, and require training in their use for any >kind of real competence. How about this: Everyone has the potential for powers (of one kind or another). Some may have a stronger potential than others, but everyone has something. Most people has some sort of build-in inhibition on using these powers, but one racial group (the Deryni) lacks this inhibition. With training, any deryni can build up his powers. Ordinary humans can have their inhibitions removed by various devious means discovered by different folks over the years and embodied in different rituals. One such is the Haldane power ritual, which not only removes the inhibitions but also provides a sort of mental "imprint", a program for using these powers. This enables the Haldane to use his powers full-blown from the moment of assumption. Another, similar, ritual had been found by Wencit, and was used by him to "give" Bran Coris his powers (actually release them). This was perhaps not as sophisticated as the ritual developed by Camber Himself. Perhaps all it did was to remove the inhibition and allow Coris to train his powers naturally. Or perhaps it gave him some instruction as well. However, the inhibition can also vanish spontaneously, in part or in whole, giving us the Warins and Haldane heirs and other non-deryni "adepts" who clutter up the books and gives us all insomnia. Hmmmmm?? Hans Rancke University of Copenhagen Institute of Computer Science mcvax!diku!rancke ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 19:27:22 GMT From: richa@tekred.TEK.COM (Rich Amber ) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" leonard@percival.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes: >>... But it seems absurd to claim that a single gene can grant >>telepathy, teleportation, mind control, fire-and-lightning, a >>serious merasha allergy, and what have you. ... > > inclined to believe that the Deryni gene is the result of an 'Act > of God' Folks, you are probably overlooking the simplest of explanations, and that is even alluded to in Kurtz's books - we all have these powers! What makes the Deryni different is that this gene simply allows them access to the powers (once properly trained). Why try to make a thing more complicated than it is. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 1987 13:23 EST (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: deryni inheritance Personally, I suspect that Katherine Kurtz simply doesn't have a very thorough grounding in genetics. After all, if you consider her initial discription of deryni inheritance, you get a slowly decreasing number of deryni. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 1987 13:27 EST (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: deryni vs. human power There is of course the line in the ancient Deryni priesting ritual that goes (as close as I can recall without the book in front of me), "We stand outside of time in a universe which is not ours." Gives rise to some interesting possibilities, no? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Mar 87 0919-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #96 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Mar 87 0919-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #96 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 96 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (13 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Feb 87 10:17:01 GMT From: kevinb@crash.CTS.COM (Kevin J. Belles) Subject: Re: Warp 8+ MIQ@PSUVMB.BITNET writes: >ST801179@BROWNVM.BITNET says: >>I have a theory about why the Enterprise had to stay at Warp 8 or >>below during the series. Since the series, we have found out that >>the Enterprise has inertial dampers. Once you get above Warp 8, a >>small variation in warp factor could force the dampers to make >>such a large correction that the ship couldn't stand it. Does >>anybody know for sure if this is the explanation? > > The explanation I generally heard is that the engines just >can't take the stress of providing warp 8+ speeds. Above warp 6, >they're straining and heating a lot; warp 8 is probably the upper >limit without an immediate burn-out. I hate to disagree with you, but in the ST episode involving Nomad (V'ger Mk .5)Nomad 'improved' the engines until, as I think Scotty put it, they were 'tearin'the whole ship apart'. Part of the problem, I believe, was the stresses to the warp envelope caused by it's deformation at speeds the ship wasn't designed to handle, and the rest could either be the compensators spoken of above (unlikely, IMHO), or the stress placed on the frame by the excess pseudoacceleration could have been too much for (1) the gravity compensators and (2) the stress capability of the ship. The obvious weak spot is the nacelle struts, or perhaps the (designed to be separable) strut between the main disk and the engineering fuselage. Kevin J. Belles UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!kevinb ARPA: crash!kevinb@{nosc, ucsd} INET: kevinb@crash.CTS.COM BIX: kevinb ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 87 14:27:00 GMT From: convex!bass@rutgers.edu Subject: re: "origin of Saavik" >`Mister' is a genderless address used in the Navy to refer to >members below a certain rank. (which one, I forget) It has nothing >to do with the sex of the addressee. Anyone out there in the navy >want to back me up on this? Correct you are, Bill! Officers in the Navy are called "Mister" no matter what sex they are. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 16:58:00 GMT From: friedman@uiucdcsb.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Star Trek 0: "The Cage" Joel B Levin writes about the tape of "The Cage": > As has been noted, the voice of the 'Keeper' was redubbed by a new > actor for "Menagerie". The voice heard on the black and white > parts is quite different. I think I like the new voice better, > but if I hadn't seen "Menagerie" before, the original voice would > not have ruined the episode for me. I suppose that the original > actor was not available for the additional 'Keeper' lines in > "Menagerie," so they had the new one redo him. For my part, I wish they had used the sound track from the black-and-white "original", at least for the Keeper's voice, throughout the tape. It would have been a single, consistent voice. The only thing I can guess is that perhaps the sound quality was too low. H. George Friedman, Jr. Department of Computer Science University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 1304 West Springfield Avenue Urbana, Illinois 61801 USENET: ...!{pur-ee,ihnp4,convex}!uiucdcs!friedman CSNET: friedman@uiuc.csnet ARPA: friedman@a.cs.uiuc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 87 18:21:02 GMT From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET Subject: Re: Warp 8+ kevinb@crash.CTS.COM (Kevin J. Belles) says: >> The explanation I generally heard is that the engines just >>can't take the stress of providing warp 8+ speeds. Above warp 6, >>they're straining and heating a lot; warp 8 is probably the upper >>limit without an immediate burn-out. > >I hate to disagree with you, but in the ST episode involving Nomad (V'ger Mk .5)Nomad 'improved' the engines until, as I think Scott (...something got lost here at my site...) >warp envelope caused by it's deformation at speeds the ship wasn't >designed to handle, and the rest could either be the compensators >spoken of above (unlikely, IMHO), or the stress placed on the frame >by the excess pseudoacceleration could have been too much for (1) >the gravity compensators and (2) the stress capability of the ship. >The obvious weak spot is the nacelle struts, or perhaps the >(designed to be separable) strut between the main disk and the >engineering fuselage. *However,* when Nomad "improved" the engines, it made modifications to allow them generate speeds much faster than warp 8-- they hit warp *11* before Kirk told the probe to reverse the process, because the ship couldn't take the stress of that speed. So, the structure & such wouldn't be any problem around warp 8 or so, it's still the engines themselves. As a precedent for this, recall "The Paradise Syndrome." Spock had ordered Warp *9* to catch the asteroid in time-- the engines were straining and sputtering the whole way, until they were finally burned out. There was never any talk of the structure being unable to take the strain. Also, the engine limitation makes more sense from a logical, engineering point of view (although I may be out of line trying to apply logic to the gadgets in Star Trek :-). If your engines can deliver speeds up to warp N without burning out, the structure should be designed to take speeds up to warp N + 1 or N + 2, to provide a factor of safety. James D. Maloy The Pennsylvania State University Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL UUCP : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 87 18:30:53 GMT From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET Subject: Re: Star Trek 0: "The Cage" pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Starbuck) says: >>(SPOILER, maybe) One question I always had when watching >>"Menagerie" concerned the ending, where Pike is beamed down to >>Talos IV and is seen on the viewscreen walking away with the girl. >So spoil us... I for one want to know how that scene fit into "The >Cage" Recall the closing lines. Pike: "You'll give back her illusion of beauty?" Keeper: "Yes. And more." Pike sees first that Vina (sp?) has her beauty back, and then watches her go back into the cave with a duplicate of himself. The Pike-illusion was the "And more" that the Keeper was talking about. In "The Menagerie," they used this footage *after* the crippled Pike had beamed down, to show that he was reunited with her, and had his own illusion to live with. As a result, when the Keeper said "And more" in "The Menagerie," it seemed out of context. Trivial aside: The re-dubbed voice of the Keeper in "The Menagerie" was provided by Malachi Throne, who played Commodore Mendez in the same episode. James D. Maloy The Pennsylvania State University Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL UUCP : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 87 19:12:21 GMT From: valid!jao@rutgers.edu (John Oswalt) Subject: Re: Warp 8+ > The explanation I generally heard is that the engines just >can't take the stress of providing warp 8+ speeds. Above warp 6, >they're straining and heating a lot; warp 8 is probably the upper >limit without an immediate burn-out. I don't remember its name, but in the episode where the Enterprise steals the Romulan's new cloaking device (with some hanky-panky between Spock and beautiful Romulan commander) Kirk orders Warp 9, and the Enterprise responds with no problem. I saw this eposide last night. I don't think that they were very consistant with the stress of various warp speeds. John Oswalt amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao ------------------------------ From: ds68#@andrew.cmu.edu (David Mark Svoboda) Subject: Re: Visit to a Weird Planet..........Help Needed Date: 14 Feb 87 19:45:16 GMT Here's a few more: Charlie X I wanna stay....stay...stay...stay....... The Squire of Gothos How fallible of me You will hang until you are DEAD, DEAD, DEAD! Amok Time It has to do with Vulcan biology. In a pig's eye. (How could anyone not mention that?) A Private LIttle War He probably knows you were holding his hand. This side of Paradise Captain, striking an officer is a court-martial offense. A Piece of the Action Sit quiet, or you'll be wearin'...concrete galoshes! Patterns of Force You would have made a good Nazi, Captain. All right, gentlemen, we want a picture here- One and Two and Three (pinch!) By Any Other Name Oh, I see. You are trying to seduce me. I feel no jealousy whatsoever / Checkmate. I, Mudd Harcourt Fenton Mudd, you good-for-nothing.../ Shut up! / thing...thing...thing.. The Apple Do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you? / Exactly 17,912,251 credits. A Taste of Armageddon Excuse me, but there is a multi-legged creature crawling on your shoulder. Journey to Babel A teddy bear?! Dave ds68@@andrew.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 87 00:34 EST From: WELTY RICHARD P Subject: re: "origin of Saavik" >`Mister' is a genderless address used in the Navy to refer to >members below a certain rank. (which one, I forget) It has nothing >to do with the sex of the addressee. Anyone out there in the navy >want to back me up on this? I'm not in the navy, but my copy of ``Naval Customs, Traditions, and Usage" (Third edition, US Naval Institute, 1939, p 336) says the following: (3) Navy In the Navy officers with the rank of commander and above in both line and staff are addressed socially by their titles, whereas those with the rank of lieutnant commander and below are addressed as ``mister.'' Any officer in command of a ship, whatever its size or class, while exercising such command is addressed as ``captain.'' In speaking to or introducing captains of the Navy, it is customary to add after the name, ``of the Navy,'' in order to indicate that the officer belongs to the Navy and not to the Army, Marine Corps, or National Guard. The reason for this practice is that the grade of captain in the Navy corresponds to our grade of colonel in the Army. I hope that this is of some help Richard Welty welty@ge-crd.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 87 11:30:32 EST From: Ron Singleton Subject: "Mister" Saavik in Star Trek Folks, Re "Mister" Saavik in ST, Bill was pretty close to correct. The naval address "Mister" may be used for any officer (Bill just didn't quote 'officer'). For those at or above the rank of Lieutenant Commander the rank is normally used, with a Lt.Cdr. being called "Commander". "Mister is also used for warrant officers and is occasionally used (often sarcastically) in addressing enlisted personnel. Disclaimer here: "Ma'am" *is* more commonly used when addressing a female officer. Could this have been a slip of the tongue that was left in? Or maybe a kind of indirect allusion to more "equality" of the sexes in the ST future? Ron S. (Retired navy enlisted) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 87 15:03:27 EST From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #49 Here, in no particular order, are my answers to some of the questions recently posed. 1. WARP 8+: According to "The Making of STAR TREK", the deflector screens were the limiting factor. They helped to stabilize the hull as well as clearingaway micrometeorites and space junk. Above W8, they couldn't cope. 2. USN Terminology: According to RADM Dan Gallery (author of some excellent humor, and captor -by boarding!- of U 505), "Mister" is used only to candidates for commmission (cadets or midshipmen) and the first 3 commissioned ranks (ensign/2LT, Lieutenant(jr grade)/1LT, and Lieutenant(sr grade)/CPT). It might rarely be used to a Lieutenant Commander(= Major), but only by an irate superior. Dave Wegener ------------------------------ Date: Thu 19 Mar 87 16:11:19-CST From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: Universal translators and Whalespeak (Star Trek) To all you ST-folks, here's a question I would be willing (and eager) to accept speculation on: In ST4(Whales etc.), why the hell didn't they just use their magic universal translator to interpret the probe's probing? Spock rather astutely remarks that while they could mimic a whale's song, it would be jibberish; i.e. they couldn't mimic the *language*. If the UT could be made to communicate with a gaseous cloud ("Metamorphosis") that didn't even appear to have *LANGUAGE*, surely it could also be made to speak whalespeak (whalish? whalese?). I'm a linguistics grad student, by the by, and the silly device disgusts me as surely as faster-than-light-travel makes most physicists apoplectic, but given a universal translator as a premise, anybody got any speculations? regards, bill ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 00:52:44 GMT From: jtk@mordor.s1.gov (Jordan Kare) Subject: Re: Universal translators and Whalespeak (Star Trek) From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU > In ST4(Whales etc.), why the hell didn't they just use their >magic universal translator to interpret the probe's probing? Good heavens, man, it's a _plot device_, it doesn't obey any logical rules. Might as well ask why they used the transporter so much, when it always broke down at such inopportune moments. >... If the UT could be made to communicate with a gaseous cloud >("Metamorphosis") that didn't even appear to have *LANGUAGE*, >surely it could also be made to speak whalespeak (whalish? >whalese?). Whelsh. The language of Whales is Whelsh. And if you don't believe me, just remember that Blemish is the official language of Felgium. :-) :-) > I'm a linguistics grad student, by the by, and the silly device >disgusts me as surely as faster-than-light-travel makes most >physicists apoplectic, Not at all. We just use an antigravity device to suspend our disbelief. >but given a universal translator as a premise, anybody got any >speculations? Oh, dozens. Lessee, the aliens were listening for underwater songs, and nobody could find a waterproof translator. Or translators really work by telepathy, and the alien probe had nothing but computers on board. Or the aliens were really looking for a jam session (remember, it's whale_song_) and the translator just didn't have that old humpbacked rhythm. And so on.... Jordin Kare jtk@mordor.UUCP jtk@mordor.s1.gov ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 87 00:02:50 GMT From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: Universal translators and Whalespeak (Star Trek) In Metapmorphoses, Spock had to adjust the translater so that it could speak to the cloud. It seems that Spock is the only person (other than Scotty) in the entire Federation that can tinker with something and come up with something else that will work. So, without Spock, nobody could hack the translater to get it to work on water-breathers. Alternatively, perhaps the Universal Translator has a range limit, and the range limit happens to be within the disruption field of the whaleship (Klingonese, Romulan, Tholian, etc., can be translated outside the range of the UT because the library computer already knows these languages, and doesn't have to use the UT). david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Mar 87 0941-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #97 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Mar 87 0941-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #97 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 97 Today's Topics: Books - DeCamp & Garrett (4 msgs) & Hodgell (2 msgs) & Kellogg & L'Engle (2 msgs) & Martin (2 msgs) & May ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Mar 87 01:19:49 GMT From: cpf@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Courtenay Footman) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #78 From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa > There are two really excellent books by L. Sprague DeCamp, >titled "The Compleat Enchanter" and "Wall of Serpents". The hero, >Harold Shea, is a psychologist. In testing one of his boss's >theories, Harold winds up in the universe of Norse mythology-- just >in time for Ragnarok. In the second half of the book, both he and >his boss wind up in Spenser's "Faerie Queen". Finally (hmm... too >many halves!) the action shifts to the universe of "Orlando >Furioso", where Harold has to rescue the one-and-only that he >married in mid-book. "Wall of Serpents" takes Harold, his firends, >and an unfortunate member of New York's Finest into the Finnish >"Kalevala"(?), and thence into Celtic myth. > These might be a bit hard to find, I think they will be worth >the effort. Not only do you get good stories, but you also get a >broad survey of various mythologies for much less than the price of >enrolling in Comp. Lit. 210. Compleat Enchanter is easy to find; it has been reprinted many times. On the other hand, Wall of Serpents is almost impossible to find. I believe that there was only one edition; certainly no more than two. My local "Used and Rare Books" store would charge ~$50 for a copy, if it had one. Apparantly the book is trapped in some legal limbo. I would appreciate it if anyone could provide more precise information. Courtenay Footman Lab. of Nuclear Studies Cornell University ARPA: cpf@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu Bitnet: cpf%lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu@WISCVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 16 MAR 87 13:51-EST From: HOGENCAM%WILLIAMS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: gandalara cycle warning and question 1. warning - The Gandalara Cycle II, containing The Well of Darkness, The Search for Ka, and Return to Eddarta, has the last two novels in reverse order. The front cover gives the titles in the above order, which is correct, an inside page reverses the last two (search and return) and the order in the book is wrong. For those who like to read their series in order this is aggravating. I'm sending this to spare others the aggravation if it isn't too late. 2. comment - (minor spoiler) I got The Gandalara Cycle I and II on an impulse and don't regret it. Each cycle contains 3 novels, all 6 dealing with a male and a female and their large (bigger than tigers) cat/companions, and their destiny. Though not perfect, it's a good fantasy series. The books are by Randall Garrett and Vicki Ann Heydron. She claims a broad outline and most of the first book was done before RG got too ill to work on it. There is a 7th and in theory last book in the series due out in summer of 86 according to the back page. Has anyone seen it? Does it exist? Angie Hogencamp bitnet : hogencamp@williams ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 16:16:00 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: Gandalara VII The final book in the Gandalara Cycle is indeed out in paperback. It is called The River Wall. I bought it in WaldenBooks late last year. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 17:33:22 GMT From: ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Gandalara VII ****((( SPOILER (?) )))**** > The final book in the Gandalara Cycle is indeed out in paperback. > It is called The River Wall. I bought it in WaldenBooks late last > year. Possible spoiler follows, if you haven't read it or the cycle itself. I read the whole cycle, the first six all at once, (all in order, of course- seems like I don't get to often enough 8-) ), and eagerly awaited the seventh. Throughout the series, I loved the concept, and the characters themselves were fascinating- fairly complex individuals ( pairs, with the Sha'um? ) who interact in a distinctive manner- I don't want to go to the hassle of a critical analysis here, as #1 I don't have them with me; #2 I don't care to picky-picky dissect a book all the time 8-) #3 I don't feel like it- so suffer! :) ) BUT: I thought the first six held together well, though the concept WAS definitely limited ( how many bad guys can 1 guy meet and take care of? Rambo knows, and thank Ghu, he isn't here...) by the size of the world. There was plenty of rom for the series, though, and in fact the size was almost perfect- not a hurried blur of plot, and not a dragging dead one either. THEN: Came the wait for #7- not too long, incredibly enough. The publisher must have been sick and did it by accident 8-). And #7 was great- for a while. By the time we find out that Gandalara is actually a seafloor (Mediterranean, to be exact), this is obvious- something not found earlier: an obvious conclusion which is drawn-out. Finally, the ending itself was SO limited- whap, the thing is over. Reminds me of Heinlein's _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_ in that respect. It needed about 50 more coherent pages, and about 50 existing pages to be more organized. I dunno, maybe it's just me...probably..... I did and do like the series, however! Even the 7th book is fairly decent- it's just that 1-6 are better. Maybe AUTHORS get tired ??!!???!!! (Nah, can't be! 0-) ) anyone have any more specific comments- I'm feeling generally nonspecialized today.... Eric Carpenter ucdavis!deneb!ccs006 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 87 00:44:37 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Gandalara VII ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes: >> The final book in the Gandalara Cycle is indeed out in paperback. >> It is called The River Wall. I bought it in WaldenBooks late >> last year. >I did and do like the series, however! Even the 7th book is fairly >decent- it's just that 1-6 are better. Maybe AUTHORS get tired >??!!???!!! (Nah, can't be! 0-) ) This is the series by Randall Garrett and Vicki Ann Heydron (sp?), right? I believe Mr. Garrett either died or (excuse the irreverence) became a vegetable shortly after the first or second book of the series was finished. As I understand it, they two had plotted the entire series together, but it was left up to Ms. Heydron (who had recently married Mr. Garrett) to finish writing the books. I imagine, after all she'd been through, she would have found this a difficult, and tiring, task. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 87 10:50:11 EST From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Find me a good series, please!! (or whatever it is) Randolph@Sun.UUCP mentioned a book by PC Hodgell entitled "Dark of the Moon". Would that be any relation to the play of the same name that I was in a few years back? It was set in the Smoky Mountains of the Carolinas, and involved witches, sorcerers, and lots of spooky stuff. Chip Olson Castell@UMass ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 23:39:02 GMT From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: PC Hodgell: "Dark of the Moon" castell@UMass.BITNET writes: >Randolph@Sun.UUCP mentioned a book by PC Hodgell entitled "Dark of >the Moon". Would that be any relation to the play of the same name >that I was in a few years back? It was set in the Smoky Mountains >of the Carolinas, and involved witches, sorcerers, and lots of >spooky stuff. Probably not. I believe that "Dark of the Moon" is a sequel to "Godstalk", an earlier fantasy by Hodgell that concerned a haunted city. "Godstalk" is an evocative book, filled with nice imagery, but not in all very well told. I haven't yet read "Dark of the Moon", so I can't comment on that book's merits. Scott R. Turner ARPA: srt@ucla UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt ------------------------------ Date: 16 MAR 87 13:45-EST From: HOGENCAM%WILLIAMS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Book Reaction - Lear's Daughters Book Reaction The Wave and the Flame Part 1 of Lear's Daughters & Reign of Fire Part 2 of Lear's Daughters both by M. Bradley Kellogg with William B. Rossow Signet both published 1986 As I am not an analytical reader, I don't do book reviews, but I can react. I enjoyed these two books. [keep in mind I like the fantasy end of sf most (McCaffrey, Kurtz, Bradley, Clayton, Cherryh, Mcintyre, Mckillip etc) but still like some science fiction]. Human beings, following the advice of a probe indicating mineral wealth and hot dry climate, (almost crash) land on a planet, finding themselves in the midst of what looks like an ice age. There are many strange meterologic events/changes that stump them and their computer. There are humanoids on the planet who have developed an existence that allows survival of the awesome weather changes. The locals believe all weather is part of a battle between two goddesses. The humans, prefer believing it is weather, but find it inexplicable by any of their models. There is quite a bit of attention paid to the personalities of the humans and the locals, and their internal motives. There is a seesaw effect of pushing the reader to thinking the natives might be right, and later that the humans might be right. There are humans who learn to love the natives for what they are, and humans bent on exploitation of mineral wealth, and other humans between the extremes. I like the two books. There is no indication anywhere that there are sequels and the ending could be sufficient as is, but doesn't preclude a third book. Angie Hogencamp hogencamp@williams (bitnet addr) ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 87 18:37:52 PST (Saturday) Subject: Re: Madeleine L'Engle From: Tallan.osbunorth.osbunorth@Xerox.COM > Does anyone remember (or has anyone already mentioned) a rather > whimsical young-adult story called "A Wrinkle In Time" by > Madeleine L'Engle? I've always considered this the first science fiction book I ever read, even though at the time I didn't know about SF as a category of literature. I read it in 1963 and I still remember the sense of amazement and wonder I felt when I finished it. The book was so completely unlike anything I had read before. I give the book a large amount of credit for having turned me into a reader. Madeleine L'Engle made an appearance at The Other Change of Hobbit, in Berkeley, a couple of weeks ago, and I went to see her. One thing she said that I found interesting, and a bit ironic, was that "A Wrinkle In Time" was initially rejected by almost every publisher of children's books in the country. They thought that no child could possibly understand it. The publisher that finally took it was astounded when the book took off the way it did. My 1963 edition (the year after its publication) is a 6th printing, and my sister's 1967 copy is a 20th printing. I have no idea how many printings it's gone though now. For all our sakes, I'm glad she persevered in getting the book published. Michael Tallan Tallan.osbunorth@Xerox.COM ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 87 00:37:19 GMT From: wheaton!cculver@rutgers.edu (Calvin Culver) Subject: Re: Madeleine L'Engle From: Tallan.osbunorth.osbunorth@Xerox.COM > Does anyone remember (or has anyone already mentioned) a rather > whimsical young-adult story called "A Wrinkle In Time" by > Madeleine L'Engle? Also one of my favorite stories when I was young (and not bad yet even now!). Madeleine continues to write, and has published at least one book of poetry as well as other childrens' books. Her latest (title escapes me right now) involves two children who travel back in time, finding themselves in the midst of Old Testament history. It's in the classic L'Engle style, very well written. "A Wrinkle in Time" will always be my sentimental favorite, however. It was a real thrill to get to hear her speak a few months back; I even got her to autograph the trilogy for me. calvin culver ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 22:35:03 GMT From: loral!ian@rutgers.edu (Ian Kaplan) Subject: Re: _Tuf Voyaging_ by G.R.R. Martin throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: >This book is a collection of stories about a man who aquires a >mobile space-based biowarfare laboratory, and what he does with it. [ text deleted... ] >It is hard to put my finger on just why I like this book so much. >I suspect it is because in some ways the protagonist, Haviland Tuf, >is a sort of Lt. Columbo analog. [ more text deleted... ] > >I recommend the book highly. One reason I like George R.R. Martin is because he is such a good Mawriter (in contrast, some authors are just have a good story). Martin has also written "Fever Dream", which is considered by some his best book. For those who grew up in the Bay Area "The Armageddon Rag" is a pretty good book also. So far the only book by Martin (or perhaps I should say with Martin content) that I did not like is his book "Aces", which I think was recently reviewed by Mark Leeper. Ian Kaplan USENET: {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!loral!ian ARPA: sdcc6!loral!ian@UCSD USPS: 8401 Aero Dr. San Diego, CA 92123 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 18:33:55 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: _Tuf Voyaging_ by G.R.R. Martin ian@loral.UUCP (Ian Kaplan) writes: > One reason I like George R.R. Martin is because he is such a >good writer (in contrast, some authors are just have a good story). I'll agree here. He's not as well known as some some writers, but better than many of the bigger names, and more consistent. I think his best work is the terribly underrated "Dying of the Light." I also think his shared world anthology, Wild Cards (of which two volumes are out -- the first one was really quite good, and the second is in my in-box). Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 87 06:29:25 GMT From: reed!mirth@rutgers.edu (The Reedmage) Subject: Julian May, was Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... myers@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Bob Myers) writes: >I liked Julian May's Saga of Pliocene Exile. Horrible title for the >series, I thought, but the books were great fun. > > The Many Colored Land > The Golden Torc > The Unborn King > The Adversary Well, I'll agree that they were fun -- except for one thing. (This grates on me no matter where it happens: comic books, science fiction, fantasy, gaming, anywhere that you find characters that are a bit more powerful than the norm). I really despise stories in which the characters get exponentially or even linearly more powerful (cf Jim Starlin's Warlock and Dreadstar, any Monty Haul [A]D&D game, Donaldson's books [I may be wrong on this one; haven't read them for a while and didn't like 'em when I did], etc). Why should slight *SPOILER* follows Group Green just *happen* to hold the several most powerful psionic people ever, all of whom are discontent and want to go to the Pleistocene (or is that Pliocene)? These people, in the course of a mere :-) four huge books, become godlike. No, they become gods. Sorry, no savvy. I don't identify with people who can do anything. *END SPOILER* The whole thing read like May had let it get out of control. The quality of the series sank in direct proportion to the rise in power level. So I would recommend the first book very highly, the second book somewhat, and the last two if you really need to know how it ends, which I didn't partic- ularly (but I did read them). This is, of course, my opinion which I formed all by myself and it is not necessarily right, good, or true. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Mar 87 1009-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #98 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Mar 87 1009-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #98 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 98 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Dating SF Books (12 msgs) & Stardrives (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Mar 87 13:25:15 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Another Trivia question I was reading a fairly early sf book recently and it occurred to me that it is posible to roughly date a book by the sort of assumptions it makes about other planets in the solar system, the most obvious of these is the assumption that Venus/Mars/The Moon is habitable by human beings without special gear. Does anybody have any other pointers to the age of a book other than looking inside the front cover? Don't e-mail any answers because I'm going on holiday soon and my file space is getting a little cramped. Piers Cawley ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 16:33:08 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Another Trivia question pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes: >I was reading a fairly early sf book recently and it occurred to me >that it is possible to roughly date a book by the sort of >assumptions it makes about other planets in the solar system, the >most obvious of these is the assumption that Venus/Mars/The Moon is >habitable by human beings without special gear. Does anybody have >any other pointers to the age of a book other than looking inside >the front cover? Don't e-mail any answers because I'm going on >holiday soon and my file space is getting a little cramped. Computers with Vacuum Tubes. Ether (like in space, not anesthetics) Radio as the height of communication technology General ignorance of relativity 'Atomic' rockets lifting off from the ground Any more? Bill Kaufman lll-crg!ames-titan!ames!orion!kaufman kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.GOV ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 21:46:21 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60/C) Subject: Re: Another Trivia question pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes: >I was reading a fairly early sf book recently and it occurred to me >that it is possible to roughly date a book by the sort of >assumptions it makes about other planets in the solar system, the >most obvious of these is the assumption that Venus/Mars/The Moon is >habitable by human beings without special gear. Does anybody have >any other pointers to the age of a book other than looking inside >the front cover? Don't e-mail any answers because I'm going on >holiday soon and my file space is getting a little cramped. The assumptions made by the author are not an infallible method of dating stories because new discoveries did not always get a lot of publicity outside Astronomical circles. Also some authors do not give up cherished beliefs despite the new discoveries. The notion of Venus being a water world was demolished some time in the 40's or 50's but there were a number of stories written later which used that idea. However, a very good indication for dating stories is whether Mercury always shows the same side to the Sun or not. When it discovered in 1965 that Mercury does not show the same face, it received much publicity. Canals on Mars started to disappear about the the time of Mariner 4 (early 60's) but did not really bite the dust until Mariner 9 (1971). I'm sure that the Voyagers have caused similar breaks (for example the number of moons Saturn has) but there just aren't that many stories written about Saturn. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 22:47:11 GMT From: carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore) Subject: Re: Another Trivia question In older SF books characters in free fall make heavy use of magnets; characters in modern SF are into velcro. Older SF shows Mercury as tide locked (with a sun side and a dark side). Any book making mention of the names of features on the far side of the moon or the smaller planetary moons discovered by Voyager can be dated. There is an old Arthur C. Clarke book (The Sands of Mars?) in which an engineer whips out a slide rule to calculate how long it would take a spilled cup of coffee to hit the ground. In one of the early Heinlein juveniles (Starman Jones) a good part of the plot hinges on finding the books of binary to decimal numeric translation tables needed to feed data into the ship's computer. William Shiras' wonderful short story "In Hiding" concerns a little boy super genius who, among other things, does a breeding experiment with his grandmothers pet cats, producing Persians with Siamese markings. The breed came into existence about 15 years ago and is called a Himalayan. Also a dead give away is that any book with a woman for a main character or showing women in important roles was probably written since 1970. Carole Ashmore ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 05:34:23 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: more ways to date sf (was Re: Another Trivia question) Space Cadets / Space Patrol organizations blissful ignorance of special relativity (as distinguished from a tacit admission that something is being glossed over) unconscious assumption that new technology will not significantly change societal mores (Anybody here read Bellamy's "Looking Backward"?) a scientist character who explains his (never "her") inventions to his admiring sidekicks who exist so that such explanations can be given token female scientist working with above assumption that new technology is always good in its effects Of course, there are counter-examples of all of these. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!) UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 20:04:50 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Another Trivia question Certain "technologies" go with certain periods: Slide rules. Radium. (Radium is *very* good. In Mark Twain's 1898 (?) story "Sold to Satan" it is revealed that the luminescence of the firefly is caused by a single Radium electron!). Analogue computers. The further back you go the more handwaving you can find in 'scientific' explanations. Carole Ashmore probably pointed to the richest ore, though: attitudes, mores, preconceptions. The difference between the ends of any decade's "spectrum" is generally laughably small by the standards of later years. Much of the most casually racist work was written by writers who were definitely anti-racist. One of the main themes of Wylie's "The Disappearance" is the senselessness of the role of women in the America of 1950 -- and today much of it is offensive to women. For many writers today, assumption seems to be that a thousand years from now the free-market vs. control controversy will still be as pressing as, oh, the admissibility of the Aryan heresy. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 01:02:08 GMT From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Another Trivia question How about: Mercury being a one-face planet. (It's tidally locked, but the resonance is 3:2, not 1:1, as believed until very recently.) Computers being large and bulky. You can really tell the stuff written before pocket calculators. (After playing with an HP 28C, I feel safe in predicting that it will become common for calculators to do symbolic math up to the integration level. Does anyone else have comments?) Colin Plumb watmath!watnot!ccplumb ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 22:05:30 GMT From: sq!hobie@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Another Trivia question What I consider interesting is not that past ignorance of the solar system leads to what are incongruities today, but how past speculations on technology of the future can be dated and dead wrong. I read a short story about a spaceship exploring Mercury where the crew figured out their orbit using pencil and paper. I wish I could remember which story that was! Another example that springs to mind is the Buck Rogers serials, where they have ray guns and spaceships, but have to look out the porthole to see enemy ships (nobody thought of radar!). Hobie Orris SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Ont. {ihnp4 | decvax}!utzoo!sq!hobie ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 19:13:54 GMT From: ellis@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis) Subject: Re: Another Trivia question I read a book ages ago, I think by E.E "Doc" Smith, and I cannot remember the title, I am sorry to say. It did, however, have an interesting "first contact" situation, when the Earthmen were admiring the Aliens' mathematical and engineering skills. The Aliens were interested in return, and were shown a slide rule. "Oh yes," it declares in haughty oh-my-God-how-primitive sort of tones, "We have slide rules too, but they are MUCH more powerful than yours..." Also, Lack of computers at all Metallic looking humanoid robots with tinny voices ( cf Asimov ) Sean Ellis ellis @ sage ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 18:13:02 GMT From: dma@euler.Berkeley.EDU (D. M. Auslander) Subject: Re: Another Trivia question Two more things that came to mind: 1) It strikes me as somewhat old-fashioned if a "space-based" sf story is set in our solar system at all. More recent stuff seems to be a galaxy or so away. 2) In early sf, all life forms are carbon based (and somewhat human metabolically.) There seems to be a general progression from carbon based/humanoid thru carbon based/obviously nonhuman to carbon based/ somewhat metabolically nonhuman (e.g. can live in some other type of atmosphere) all the way to non carbon based (e.g. silicon based or even sentient machine in the most extreme form) Miriam Nadel ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 20:22:11 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60/C) Subject: Accurate but trivial predictions (was Re: Another Trivia Subject: question) In "Citizen of the Galaxy", Heinlein has large bulky computers like many of the books of that era (late 50's). However in one scene, he has the main character pull out a pocket calculator to add up the stock voting. Predicting small calculating devices was no great feat (I believe Asimov had done so previously) but he actually used the words "pocket calculator". Along the same vein, a story (I forget the name) by Asimov written in the early 50's had a digital clock with red luminescent numbers. The only difference from modern LED's (no, he didn't call them LED's) was that the clock had a metal face. When I reread these stories a few years back, I almost didn't catch them because they would not be remarkable in a book written in the 80's. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 17:22:54 GMT From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: Looking Backward (was Re: more ways to date sf) sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >unconscious assumption that new technology will not significantly >change societal mores (Anybody here read Bellamy's "Looking >Backward"?) Uhh, yes. (Did a term paper on it for a Poli-Sci class back in my dark ages.) The only significant technological advancement that I remember from Looking Backward was his pneumatic radio. Intriguing piece of speculation, that. It was a set of pipes like they use at Best Products and drive-up tellers, but routed throughout an entire city! Each house would have (three or four of?) them coming in like a cable feed and a selector so the family could listen to live music performances, piped in. The main character asks his hosts if they have a piano ("Do you play the piano for each other?"), as this was *major* home entertainment in the late 1800s. The answer is a description of the pipe system and that people don't play anymore; the finest professionals are available at home, so why bother with second-rate amateurs? I must admit this annoyed me, musician that I am, but it was consistent with his story and message. Looking Backward is a 100 year leap into the future postulated by a Socialist/Communist - classic utopian speculation of, I believe, 1897 (the full title is "Looking Backward, 1997 to 1897" (I *think* I've got the dates right), by Edward Bellamy). Thanks for reminding me of this, Shoshanna! Kristopher Stephens Amdahl Corporation amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com 408-746-6047 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 08:34:00 CST From: CCCRAIG%UMCVMB.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Craig Pepmiller) Subject: More Stardrives Three types of drives I haven't seen mentioned so far: Black hole hopping: Drop into a black hole and appear; elsewhere in space, around another black hole, or out of a 'white hole'. Example might be 'The Black Hole' movie (I never got around to reading the book to find out what actually happened to them.) Parallel Universe travel: Instead of physically moving, modify the reality around you to the reality of where you want to go. It becomes questionable whether you have traveled or created or dreamed yourself there. Example would be the Amber series and recent discussion. Magnetic/Gravity drives: Push against fields rather than matter. Has been used quite a bit but I can't seem to think of an example right now. One note on teleportation drives: Lest someone claim it as another category, 'star gates' probably fit under teleportation. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 20:49 EDT From: SJONES%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Stardrives... (specifically Dickson, Phase-shifting) In response to Brandon Allbery wrote the following: >You forgot a few: >(3) Dickson's ``phase-shift'' drive (actually, this is a more > ``serious'' version of the Improbability Drive...) I've read the books of the Childe Cycle that are out to date, and as a layman (nothing more than a high school physics course) it seemed to make sense. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle has got to be good for something, right? I mean, the way G.D. describes it in _Necromancer_ it seems like a logical extension of the principal. Maybe that's why it can't be - it's too obvious... I'd appreciate any replies from the more technically proficient readers out there. Steve Jones BITNET: sjones@umass CSNET: sjones%hamp@umass-cs UUCP: ...seismo!UMASS.BITNET!sjones INTERNET:sjones%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu: USSnail: box 753; Hampshire College; Amherst, MA 01002 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 01:27:47 GMT From: faline!purtill@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Star-drives Allan C. Wechsler writes: >Relativity is a "problem" with /any/ form of faster-than-light >travel. If relativity is true (and all the evidence says it is) >then /any/ form of FTL violates causality exactly as much as time >travel does. This is not quite true. FTL only violates causality if it can be done in any frame of reference. If you can only travel FTL with respect to a given, fixed frame of reference, then you're OK. Ah-ha, you say, but that violates one of the postulates of relativity. True, but the *postulates* of relativity have never been tested, only the predictions. In other words, if FTL is possible, relativity is wrong in the same way the Newtonian mechanics is wrong, ie. it's good only in certain domains. (In the case of Newtonian mechanics, it's valid if v << c and there are no large gravitational forces about.) This is certainly not out of the question. Mark Purtill at Multics.Mit.Edu (aka Mit-Multics.edu) UUCP: ...!bellcore!purtill ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Mar 87 1021-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #99 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Mar 87 1021-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #99 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 99 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (5 msgs) & Eddings & Holland & LeGuin (4 msgs) & Thieve's World (2 msgs) & A Request & Heart of the Comet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Mar 87 18:18:11 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla Shoshanna Green (sgreen@cs.ucla.edu) writes: >"Jhereg" was inoffensive but not at all what I had been hoping for. >"Yendi" was better, but ... With "Teckla" I started feeling that >these were real people in a real situation There were a number of people who felt as you did. The widespread disappointment was from those (including myself) who felt that Yes, Jhereg is cotton candy, but it is Very Good cotton candy. Teckla is deeper, more serious...but the author isn't that good at it yet. The revolutionaries seem to be spouting sixtiesish dogma in a pseudo-medieval society. The author is forced to invoke a spiritus ex machina to save his plot. The action is demoted from an integral part of the story to an excuse for the not-very-profound philosophising. The main problem is probably one of miscasting. SKZB is trying to get serious with characters rather firmly type-cast for comedy. >(I'm still confused by the relationship between "Draghearans" (sp? >haven't got the books here in my office) and "Easterners" (== >humans?) Brokedown Palace is *not* one of the Jhereg series, but internal evidence (including the reference in Teckla to 'fairies') suggests that it is a good source of insights into how Easterners view the 'fairies'. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 21:29:44 GMT From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers) Subject: Re: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >"Jhereg" was inoffensive but not at all what I had been hoping for. Yeah, that was my impression too. I didn't intend to read any more of the series after I read Jhereg. Then I read all the postings here about Teckla. It sounded quite a bit better (despite all the complaints), so I decided to continue. I figured I should probably read Yendi, too, just so I didn't miss anything. Oddly enough, though, I had gathered from people's postings that I probably *would* like Teckla. Maybe because I'd already been a bit disappointed with Jhereg. I agree, Teckla I enjoyed quite a bit better than the other two. > Are there any other people out there who share my feelings? Well, one anyway. Bob Myers myers@tybalt.caltech.edu seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 17:22:57 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla >The point of this? I'm interested by the fact that it was the book >which SKZB fans seemed to like least that hooked me. Are there any >other people out there who share my feelings? Uh, SOME fans of SKZB were disappointed. Other fans, who shall remain nameless, think Teckla was the best book he's put out to date. So, yes, there are people who share your feelings. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 04:16:27 GMT From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) Subject: Re: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla The important thing to note here is that Teckla, however good or bad it is relative to Jhereg and Yendi, is noticeably *different* from the other two. As a series gathers a large following, a lot of people come to expect a certain kind of book in the series. Many (though not all) will be expecting this certain quality when they buy a sequel, and many will be disappointed. I, personally, think that the political element of Teckla detracted from the sheer fun/energy I had come to expect from the series. It had some elements that the other books were missing, however. I think that if I had read Teckla first (or, rather, if the first book had been Teckla-like) I would have been disappointed in the other 2 books. It's all a matter of what you're expecting. Now that some time has passed, I've come to believe that Teckla is a step in the right direction for the series. I had been worried that the series was going to stagnate. I still think, however, that Brust is much more skillful at characterization and storytelling than at portraying politics. I think he would do well to either improve his skill at the latter, or stick to the former. Confusing enough? ray trent@csvax.caltech.edu rat@caltech.bitnet seismo!cit-vax!trent ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 17:22:11 GMT From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes: > Brokedown Palace is *not* one of the Jhereg series, but internal > evidence (including the reference in Teckla to 'fairies') suggests > that it is a good source of insights into how Easterners view the > 'fairies'. According to remarks SKZB made at Ad Astra last year during a question/answer session after a panel, the "Faerie" of Brokedown Palace IS the Dragaeran Empire. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, and the character's name escapes me, but SKZB said that the baby refered to at the very end of Brokedown Palace is in fact Cawti. I'm not sure this is inferrable from the book. It didn't occur to me on first reading, and I haven't reread Brokedown Palace in light of the above information. Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA phone: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211 ARPANET: kathy@LL-XN.ARPA kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 01:17:35 GMT From: hpindda!jeo@rutgers.edu (Eric Okholm) Subject: Re: The Belgariad >I am a big fan of the Belgariad and I am looking forward to the new >series by David Eddings. It seems that everybody loves that book. >I'd really look forward to hearing from anybody who really enjoyed >the book and would like to talk about some of the things that are >left unexplained in it. I would also be more than happy to hear >anything else about when the new series is coming out. It is my favorite too. Our bookstore "in the know" says that his book will be out in April. I am not sure that it is a series continuation, but I sure hope so. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 19:33:27 GMT From: maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak) Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin (now kudos to George) Thank you George Robbins! Now I know why I haven't been able to find any more SF by Cecilia Holland, and I've been looking and looking. I really enjoyed FLOATING WORLDS. Do you think she may write more SF? Any other of her books you know the titles of? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 87 15:54:54 CST From: Jeff Myers Subject: article for sf lovers > I wish to strongly echo the above remarks. _The_Dispossessed_ > seems to be intended, as is _Atlas_Shrugged_, primarily as a > political essay (some would say propaganda). Unlike Rand, LeGuin > has at least the merciful virtue of relative brevity. _TD_ is > undoubtedly her _least_ representative work to date. I wish to strongly object to the above remarks. Comparing Ayn Rand to Ursula Kroeber LeGuin is like comparing Ronald Reagan to Paul Newman. First, there is no comparison talentwise in both pairings. Second, Rand and Reagan are much more concerned with their political agendas than their artistic ones. One of the nice things about LeGuin is that she is the daughter of one of the most famous and respected American anthropologists of this century (or any century). She is able to write about more than one topic, using more than one style, and give us more than one viewpoint. In a sense, LeGuin has NO representative work...she's very talented and very eclectic. I very much doubt that she was plugging some political agenda with _The_Dispossessed_. I think that she was interested in showing that it is possible to conceive of a rationally constructed and believable egalitarian society -- she uses her anthropology background to expand the realm of fantasy/sf, not to give us more BEM novels, in the finest tradition of RAH and _Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_. Jeff Myers ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 09:38:39 PST (Thursday) Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM >I wish to strongly echo the above remarks. _The_Dispossessed_ >seems to be intended, as is _Atlas_Shrugged_, primarily as a >political essay (some would say propaganda). _Atlas_Shrugged_ ?? I thought this was a figment of Robert O'Shea's and/or Robert Anton Wilson's imagination, along with _Telemechus_Sneezed_. Does Atlanta Hope map to Ursula K. LeGuin? Hugh ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 87 04:39:40 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin Hugh_W_Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM: >>I wish to strongly echo the above remarks. _The_Dispossessed_ >>seems to be intended, as is _Atlas_Shrugged_, primarily as a >>political essay (some would say propaganda). >_Atlas_Shrugged_ ?? I thought this was a figment of Robert >O'Shea's and/or Robert Anton Wilson's imagination, along with >_Telemechus_Sneezed_. Does Atlanta Hope map to Ursula K. LeGuin? Don't insult LeGuin; she's a good writer. ATLAS SHRUGGED is the excretion of Ayn Rand, who is (was) real. Her political ideals were, shall we say, not enthusiastically accepted. Neither were her books. Shea/Wilson grabbed TELEMACHUS SNEEZED from ATLAS SHRUGGED -- title and first line (``Who is John Galt?''). I read the first hundred pages of ATLAS SHRUGGED and threw it out. Politically I'm an oddball and I'm quite an individualist -- but I couldn't stomach the crap she was throwing at me. Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 87 12:38:37 GMT From: rruxg!wwd@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin >I wish to strongly echo the above remarks. _The_Dispossessed_ >seems to be intended, as is _Atlas_Shrugged_, primarily as a >political essay (some would say propaganda). A contrary voice: I read it in the light of her short story "The Ones Who Walked Away From Omelas" in which we are presented with a seemingly ideal utopia, but which bears some hidden oppression. The anarchist world is flawed in that people are not free to follow intellectual pursuits because of the economic struggle they all must face for survival. The 'hero' of the novel tries to resolve this but only gains rejection because of the prejudices of his fellow 'anarchists'. I was just looking for my copy of the _Dispossessed_, wasn't it dedicated to "those who walked away from Omelas"? Something almost completely different: Was anyone else intrigued by Card's adaption of LeGuin's themes in _Speaker_for_the_Dead_ (trees, the ansible, the noble savage)? rruxjj!wwd ------------------------------ Date: 12-Mar-1987 1110 From: mccutcheon%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Live free and die) Subject: Lythande and Theives World As I remember, Lythande doesn't eat in front of men, not because she can't, but to give the impression that this might be her secret. Everyone knows (well at least other adapts know) that she must have a secret, so why not hint at something obviously way off? The only women I can remember her eating in front of was the madam of the Aphrodisia house (?? its been awhile) and the travelers, both of whom knew her secret, and she trusted. Too bad Thieve's World went the way it has. I gave up a few books ago. I really got tired of the two sorceresses, the old undead, and nothing new happening. When it got a chore to follow I decided to stop reading. (I really liked the early books though!) Charlie McCutcheon ------------------------------ Date: 2 Mar 87 12:21:41 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!?) miker@wjvax.UUCP (Mike Ryan) writes: >Lythande is an Adept of the Blue Star, kind of weak magicians. >Their power is linked to the fact that they must all protect a >secret. Lythande's secret is that 'he' is a she. I forget which >fine volume this comes out in, but it's one of the early, read >'good', ones. It was in fact the first one and you're right it is a good one. >I don't think she dies if someone pegs her as a sheila, she just >loses her powers and then won't be able to fight the powers of >darkness at the end of time with her fellow Adepts , who are mostly >male. Lythande is very! She doesn't die, neither does she lose her powers, instead she becomes under the control of the one who works out she's a sheila and, if they are as good old 'half hand' they can just make her give up her powers to him and then he'd probably kill her. In the story you mention Lythande shares her secret with the madam of Aphrodysia house who happens to be related to her. (Just out of interest, in a supposedly different world with it's own gods and the like. Why does the local knocking shop have to be named after one of the hellenic gods?) Piers Cawley ------------------------------ Date: Sun 15 Mar 87 10:37:08-EST From: Jonathan L Burstein Subject: story author/title request Quite a few years ago I read a short story which had as its basic plot a single starship travelor returning to Earth after (many) thousands of years - time dilation effect. When he comes back he finds that just about all traces of civilization are gone. One curious discovery is a crudely lettered sign which says "Ware Q", which he feels may be referring to World War Q (i.e., after a dozen or so they stopped numbering them and went to letters instead). Actually, the "ware" is a shortened version of "beware", and the "Q" is a sign of a very ansty and virulent bacillus. Any info as to author, title, and location muchly appreciated. Thank you Danny Burstein (D-Burstein @ CUTC20 mcimail:DBURSTEIN) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 14:11:01 EST From: LT Sheri Smith USN Subject: Heart of the Comet: Brin & Benford Anyone into "hard" sf who hasn't picked this up yet, DO SO NOW!! I am about 2/3 of the way thru, and totally fascinated! The story is about a group of around 400 people who go out to Halley's Comet on its 22nd century swing by with the intention of settling there and doing research into (among other things) altering its course. The idea is this is the groundwork on diverting other comets into more desirable orbits for harvesting or possibly using them to help terraform Mars, etc. They have cold sleep and some rather interesting ways of making the insides of the comet liveable during the 70-odd year period they intend to be on the comet (about one full orbit). Plus a good start into artificial intelligence, some neat machines, genetic engineering, and other fun things. That's all I'll tell you except: This ties in to the discussion on what happens if you go into space without your suit....There is a scene where there is a need for an individual to do just that. He uses ear plugs and goggles, and has a small bottle of air. Wearing just a coverall. They figure he has a maximum of 3 minutes before problems of loss of O2 and nitrogen bubbling in the blood make it impossible for him to see, let alone think, with concommitant loss of purpose/motor control. Don't know how they figured all this out...suspect they may have some of the information on leaky spacesuit testing mentioned earlier?? Anyone else out there read this one yet?? For those who haven't, its in paperback...get it and enjoy!! Sheri ltsmith@mitre.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Mar 87 1036-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #100 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Mar 87 1036-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #100 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 100 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Terminology (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Mar 87 23:46:53 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: SCI-FI vs. S.F. barry@borealis.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes: >The use of 'SF' also goes back to at least the 1950s, so it's not a >modern replacement for 'sci-fi'. One reason it's favored, I think, >is that it's less definite. There's never been that much science in >science fiction, and there's more scienceless SF than ever these >days, thus making a vague term like 'SF' very appropriate. The way I heard it, "SF" was more appropriate because it could as easily stand for "Speculative Fiction", which can include Fantasy and all the in-betweens, as "Science Fiction". "Sci-fi" isn't a very good short-form for Speculative Fiction, y'know. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 87 02:42:56 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) Subject: Re: Terminology Lately, on the net there has been much arguing back and forth over what is the distinction, if any, between Science Fiction and Fantasy. I think the matter is almost purely one of idiom rather than anything else. By idiom I mean that if the author uses technological terminology (for example, light sail) then the work is sf. If the author uses mythological terminology (for example, magic carpet) then the work is fantasy. As such the author has complete control over whether he/she is writing fantasy or sf. What this boils down to is that the genre of a work is whatever the author intends it to have. This leaves some works in kind of a limbo between the two genres. Some authors deliberately use some of each idiom in a single work. However, there is another factor which complicates this simple picture of idiom as the main difference between sf and fantasy. By tradition, sf should conform as much as possible to the natural laws as we understand them. If it does not, then an attempt (even if only vague arm waving) should be made to explain why this discrepancy occurs. This tradition seems to be violated more often than not. Thus we have a splitting of sf into HARD sf, which follows the tradition, and SOFT sf which does not. This categorization seems to be done more by the reader and leads to much argument over whether a particular work (for example, "Dune") is hard or soft sf (it certainly is not space opera!) To answer a recent controversy about the Pern books, they are definitely sf by idiom but soft by violation of the tradition. wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: >I think everyone's getting a bit hung up on terminology, here. Hey, >we're human beans: we INVENTED the words fantasy, science, and >fiction! There ain't nothing out there in the real world called >"fantasy" or "science fiction." Why is it so important, anyway, to >distinguish between these two genres (or subgenres)? They're useful >as terms only if they tell us something about a story: what does >being able to say story X is really science fiction rather than >fantasy buy us? Once a term has been used for a while, it gains connotations which are hard to overcome. It helps people categorize works and authors. It also leads to people making snap judgements which may not be justified. >I don't see that it buys us anything in descriptive or analytical >power. Perhaps not, but it makes the decision easier for people who don't want to spend a lot of time deciding what to read. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 87 02:17:07 GMT From: wenn@gandalf.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn) Subject: Terminology and Genres With all this talk on terminology (SF versus Sci-Fi, SF versus Fantasy, was "Alien" SF or Horror?, etc.), I'm reminded an argument I heard not too long ago. The case can be made that SF is not really a genre (like Westerns, Romance, Mystery, Action/Adventure, Horror, ...) but is instead a mode of writing. This means you can have a Mystery story that is told in either the SF or Descriptive (realistic, main-stream, literary, non-speculative, put-your-favorite-non-sf-word-here) mode. I know I've read (or seen) SF western, SF romance, SF action, SF horror, SF comedy, SF satire, SF pornography (bad), picaresque SF, SF gothic, SF travelogue, SF mystery, SF detective, SF historical and SF war stories. Of course there are some kinds of stories that are inherently SF-ish in nature: End of the World (natural or man-made), Time Travel, First Alien Contact, and (to a lesser degree) distopias/utopias. Although these are by their nature SF, one can also write them in a Descriptive (...) mode. Examples that spring to mind are "Earth Abides" by George R. Stewart [end of the world (natural)], "Contact" by Carl Sagan [first alien contact] and "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood [future distopia]. These (and others like them) are stories that WE know are SF but are in the bookstore/library as "normal" fiction. Using this view "Alien" really is *both* Horror and SF. All of this is only important, of course, if you have to have a label for the things you read. John Wenn ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 87 17:30:44 GMT From: borealis!barry (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: SCI-FI vs. S.F. tim@reed.UUCP (T. Russell Flanagan) writes: >> It is my belief that S.F. is a popular term because it is >>somewhat obscure. It defines an "in group" through jargon. >Well, I don't know about the first argument, but I agree >wholeheartedly with the second, and the "in group" argument >expecially. If you think about it, who is most likely to have >developed the term "sci-fi" in the first place? Would it have been >mundane media-types who's main purpose was to discredit the science >fiction community and make fun of its members by using a name which >none of them understood as refering to themselves? Not bloody >likely. It seems obvious to me that the term "sci-fi" was >developed by the science fiction community itself, or perhaps by a >publisher somewhere. I've been assuming the origin of the term 'sci-fi' was too well known to bear retelling, but maybe not. Forrest J. Ackerman (AKA "Mr. Science Fiction") claims it's his term, and I know of no rival claimants for the honor. So you got that right. >Given this fact, it seems that the only reason to abandon the term >is simply because the mundane community at large has figured out >what it means, and we want to be special. I don't think so. The impression I have is that a lot of the SF community *never* liked the term, and heaven knows why. In any case, like all terms, it gets defined by how it's used, and among the fen, it's usually used to denote bad SF, and particularly bad SF on film. The mundane world, of course, still uses it as a synonym for all science fiction. So, last I heard, does Forrey. But the term was *never* as widespread inside the SF world as it is outside. It was popularized by journals like TIME magazine, not by ASTOUNDING or F&SF. The use of 'SF' also goes back to at least the 1950s, so it's not a modern replacement for 'sci-fi'. One reason it's favored, I think, is that it's less definite. There's never been that much science in science fiction, and there's more scienceless SF than ever these days, thus making a vague term like 'SF' very appropriate. Me, I like 'skiffy', but I'm just a Philistine :-). Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 87 19:04:48 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Terminology marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes: >...Science fiction is based on technology and the physical laws we >recognize in our known universe. Fantasy involves any powers or >physical laws that are not known and recognized by scientists, like >magic, ESP, and so forth. ... By this definition, teleportation >can be used in either genre. If teleportation is achieved with a >machine or device of some sort, it's science fiction. If >teleportation is a form of magic (like a gem or spell), or through >telekenesis, then it qualifies as fantasy. ... Much science fiction, however, uses "powers or physical laws that are not known and recognized by scientists." What about science fiction stories that talk about FTL drives, matter transmitters, pure energy beings, psionic devices, etc.?? NONE of these things are within the bounds of reality as we understand it. Ergo, science fiction is (by your definition) a subset of fantasy. I think everyone's getting a bit hung up on terminology, here. Hey, we're human beans: we INVENTED the words fantasy, science, and fiction! There ain't nothing out there in the real world called "fantasy" or "science fiction." Why is it so important, anyway, to distinguish between these two genres (or subgenres)? They're useful as terms only if they tell us something about a story: what does being able to say story X is really science fiction rather than fantasy buy us? I don't see that it buys us anything in descriptive or analytical power. Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 02:04:06 GMT From: wheaton!cculver@rutgers.edu (Calvin Culver) Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker elb@mtx5c.UUCP writes: >Excuse me Russell, but many of us call ourselves Trekkers to >distinguish ourselves from Star Trek groupies (Trekkies). > >Under this system a Trekker cares about the consistency between >episodes, how the warp engines work, and what happened to the >tribbles after the Klingons got them. We may care about whether >the Enterprise is a Starship or Constitution Class ship, and we may >watch the cartoons. > >A trekkie, however, may (or may not) care about those things,... Say what? I have been a Trekkie (*not* a Trekker) since 1969, and I do *not* care whether William Shatner got an A in the sixth grade, or what Nichelle Nichols' (did I even spell that right?) astrological sign is. I *do* care about consistency between episodes, what class the big-E is, and so on. The term "trekker" was first proposed back about 1974 as a "classier" version of "trekkie", and was vetoed by consensus of the trekkie community at the time. It has continually resurfaced since then, and many of us trekkies have been resisting the term ever since. calvin culver ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 87 22:35:07 GMT From: reed!tim@rutgers.edu (T. Russell Flanagan) Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker From my previous posting: The same trend can be seen with the terms "trekkie" and the newer "trekker". Trekkies of course called themselves trekkies before anybody else did. Now that everybody and their grandmother knows what that term means, many prefer to call themselves "trekkers", so they can be special again. elb@mtx5c.UUCP (Ellen Bart) writes: >Excuse me Russell, but many of us call ourselves Trekkers to >distinguish ourselves from Star Trek groupies (Trekkies). > >Under this system a Trekker cares about the consistency between >episodes, how the warp engines work, and what happened to the >tribbles after the Klingons got them. We may care about whether >the Enterprise is a Starship or Constitution Class ship, and we may >watch the cartoons. > >A trekkie, however, may (or may not) care about those things, but >for sure he/she cares about Nichelle Nichols's astrological sign >and whether William Shatner got an 'A' in French in 9th grade. > >I am proud to be identified with the former group, and, while I >believe the latter group has a right to exist, I certainly do not >want to be identified with them. Got it? I agree with you totally, and I associate myself with the former group as well. As a matter of fact, many of my previous articles to this group have involved rather scathing attacks of what you prefer to call "trekkies", but what I call "brain-dead vegatables". The only difference between our two opinions, as I see it, is that you claim that the distinction between the two terms corresponds to the distinction between the two kinds of fans (no, I don't use the term "fen" either), while I simply do not accept that this correspondence holds. In any case, I most often claim to be a member of a "Trek Appreciation Group" rather than a "Trekkie Club", and I have little oportunity to use the term "Trekkie" except when relating to mundanes. They tend to ask me "Are you a trekkie?", and if I came back with a nice long explanation as to why I am a trekker and not a trekkie, they would most likely walk off thinking to themselves "What a wierdo". Hence, I say instead, proudly and with great enthusiasm (:-), "YES! I am a TREKKIE!" Well, something like that anyway. T. Russell Flanagan ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 87 20:51:19 GMT From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker I would like to add another classification (as if we realy need it) of Star Trek fan. There are a number of us who think that TREKKERS are ACTIVE fans. They go to cons on a regular basis, publish/edit fanzines, write stories (and occasionally get them published), and generally form the core of Star Trek fandom. I personally think that such people are geat. Unfortunately I don't have the time to commit to such projects and DO NOT wish to be identified as a Tekkie (Ungh!!). Therefore I have coined (or stolen) a term for apathetic Trekkers: Trekists. Trekists do nearly all the things that Trekkers do but not nearly as often. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 21:26:03 GMT From: gwe@cbosgd.ATT.COM (George Erhart) Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker cculver@wheaton.UUCP (Calvin Culver) writes: >elb@mtx5c.UUCP writes: >>Excuse me Russell, but many of us call ourselves Trekkers to >>distinguish ourselves from Star Trek groupies (Trekkies). > >Say what? I have been a Trekkie (*not* a Trekker) since 1969, Didn't Linus Pauling develop a vaccine for that ? >so on. The term "trekker" was first proposed back about 1974 as a >"classier" version of "trekkie", and was vetoed by consensus of the >trekkie community at the time. It has continually resurfaced since >then, and many of us trekkies have been resisting the term ever >since. I can't believe this discussion is actually taking place. *All* of us share a very specific interest in Star Trek, yet you *still* find a need to split up into factions ? (But, gee, can't you tell, he's black on the LEFT side !) But, since I can't resist a good verbal brawl... If I wished to label myself because of my interest in ST (and I don't), I would prefer to be referred to as a Trekker. To me, and many others not of the ST affiliation, "Trekkie" has the distinctive odor of "Hippy", "Yuppy", "Preppy", or "Moonie". I find it demeaning. It connotes mindlessness, a slavish, nigh-religious addiction to ST. "Trekker" is better (but not *much* better). It is at least consistent with the language. (Writer's note: I tried to think up some examples here, of interests related to ST; they all come out with double entendres and puns; believe me, it wasn't intentional) F'rinstance: Gaming. One who games is a gamer, not "gamie" (I *warned* you. And yes, I know that both terms often apply ! ) Reading. One who reads is a reader, not a "bookie" etc. Yes, I know, there are counter-examples (employee, lessee, etc.).It doesn't matter. The fact is that many people are severly put off by the term "Trekkie". I know that such prejudice isn't fair, or right, but it IS, in the same sense that Mount Everest IS, or that Alma Cogan ISN'T. I now sit here, humble in my asbestos longjohns, awaiting the enraged pyrotechnics to follow. But, from within my silver-clad form, a tiny, muffled voice cries out, "Don't bother flaming. It's just my opinion !" Bill Thacker cbatt!cbosgd!gwe ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 24 Mar 87 0845-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #101 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Mar 87 0845-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #101 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 24 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 101 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 10 Mar 87 12:56:31-PST From: Judy Anderson Subject: Heinlein and the "sex is great" books I read a number of the books people have been characterizing as having as their sole message "sex is great" while a teenager, and I want to disagree about their message. Yes, this is definitely one of them, but more to the point is the message "marriage (of any kind) is great" and "family is important". This is found in TEFL, TMiaHM, to some extent in SiaSL, and a number of other books. I currently am in a group household situation which is incredibly rewarding, and I think that having read these books and getting the idea that groups of adults in a family situation would be a big win may be partially responsible. So don't put Heinlein down as just promoting sex; he also promotes family values (so they're non-traditional, personally I think they're better...) Judy ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 14:05:32 EST (Tue) From: Joel B Levin Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) >TNotB, because he at least TRIES to deal with the question of what >would happen if a bunch of his standard "dominant" type characters >had to live in the same spaceship. I think you have, as we say, nailed the head on the hit, although I cannto claim to respect or like the book. In fact, it struck me as an orgy (and I mean that figuratively, here!) of mutual adulation that most closely resembled narcissism, since it really was the one character in four incarnations. By the way, I came to this book with exactly the _wrong_ background for it: my only exposure to Burroughs had been Tarzan; my only knowledge of Oz came from the original _Wizard of Oz_ (the book, at least); and the rest of the characters were a mystery to me. Also, I had read nothing of Heinlein since _IWFNE_, since all my favorite stuff came with few exceptions before _Stranger_, so I had barely heard of Lazarus Long. Sigh. I later read _Job_ and _Friday_ and enjoyed them as much as I could given my distaste for the personalities and thought processes common to many of RAH's newer characters. JBL arpa: levin@bbn.com uucp: ...harvard!bbnccv!levin ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 87 22:05:12 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.edu (Jim "Jack" Frost) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books arlan@inuxm.UUCP (A Andrews) writes: >I enjoyed every other book by RAH, but FRIDAY was the only one in >which a superior person does NOT prevail, and in fact quits by >running off to the frontier without having put up a significant >fight. I didn't say it was poorly written (although I did not >understand the significance of the detailed discussion of the star >maps), I just said it was the worst--and I explained what I meant, >as discussed in the last sentence. Remember that _Friday_ is written from the point of view of Friday. *Heinlein* does not go into detail on the star maps, *Friday* does. What's important to Friday is what Friday tells us about. This is why Friday spends so little time worrying speaking of the missions and so much speaking of her "family" life. When Friday was going outsystem, this was THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN HER LIFE. Therefore, she might dwell on it. Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 21:10:09 GMT From: scirtp!george@rutgers.edu (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.) Subject: Re: Heinlein and the "sex is great" books From: Judy Anderson > I currently am in a group household situation which is incredibly > rewarding, and I think that having read these books and getting > the idea that groups of adults in a family situation would be a > big win may be partially responsible. So don't put Heinlein down > as just promoting sex; he also promotes family values (so they're > non-traditional, personally I think they're better...) In another Heinlein book (_Friday_), the main character begins by nearly achieving fulfillment through her nearly complete belonging to/in an "S-group" (you know, support, security, sex, all those other warm fuzzy things) that is basically a marriage among more than 2 people. While this may be a psychological win for some people (including myself; there is no way that just 1 other person could could cover everything I need), I would also insist that part the impetus for the formation of these situations is not just the Good ideas that Heinlein has had, but also the Bad ideas that certain people in charge of economic policy have had, which make the cost of housing in many areas Absolutely Unconscionable. The Bureau of Labor Statistics practically admitted as much last week when it revised the housing component of the consumer price index upward from 37% to 43%. In this case, financial necessity may be the mother of whole new modes of social invention. Which just goes to show you that even high rent can have its good side-effects. I guess. I hope you all are really having fun out there. I hope you can give me a tour of your space if I can ever get back there! ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 03:37:38 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Heinlein and the "sex is great" books From: Judy Anderson >I read a number of the books people have been characterizing as >having as their sole message "sex is great" while a teenager, and I >want to disagree about their message. Yes, this is definitely one >of them, but more to the point is the message "marriage (of any >kind) is great" and "family is important". This is found in TEFL, >TMiaHM, to some extent in SiaSL, and a number of other books. I >currently am in a group household situation which is incredibly >rewarding, and I think that having read these books and getting the >idea that groups of adults in a family situation would be a big win >may be partially responsible. So don't put Heinlein down as just >promoting sex; he also promotes family values (so they're >non-traditional, personally I think they're better...) Agreed. I consider the putdowns to be based on the same idiocy which gives us people who try to denounce HUCKLEBERRY FINN as racist. Well, similar, at least; HUCK FINN "promoted" racism outwardly while actually showing it to be stupid. TEFL -- how anyone gets the "sex is everything" thesis from this is beyond my understanding, given that the very title is a reference to the story within that promotes the "family is everything, sex is just sex" thesis instead -- and the societies of Secundus and Tertius have a refreshing lack of the various insane taboos in our society. I suspect *this* is the reason TEFL is knocked. People raised to believe in the tribal taboos about sex and clothing have, via the taboos, the unalterable idea that any society without those taboos must be a constant orgy. Secundus and Tertius, however, have gone beyond the taboos, examined both without pre- conceptions of evilness, and come to terms with them. And, predictably, the downfall of the sex taboo caused sex to stop being the mysterious ultimate rite and just become an act, so that it doesn't get interpreted as the sole reason for marriage any more (the same applies to other strange ideas of this sort). The nudity taboo being tied to the sex taboo, it disappeared when the sex taboo did. And the result, far from being an orgy, is a mature society which doesn't waste energy in the strange sex- and clothing-related activities ours has -- by which I mean the passion (I use the term advisedly) for "fashion", Penthouse & co., shops selling all sorts of sex paraphernalia, the craziness which requires feminine pads to be advertised with pictures of ``innocent'' young women, etc. It would also solve quite a few problems we're suffering from today. If sex is accepted as being the means of procreation, rather than something that's fun because it's taboo, I strongly suspect the current legal and moral battles about abortion would be rendered unnecessary; most ``unwanted pregnancies'' are the result of kids experimenting with the sex taboo. Somehow, I suspect that I'm going to get a LOT of flamage because of this article. If you won't send it to /dev/null, I will; I'm not a caveman, I'm capable of looking at reality without hiding in superstition; if you aren't, I don't want to hear about how I'm such an evil corrupter of the innocent. Now, off the soapbox and back to SF-LOVERS. (I really didn't intend to get into this discussion...) Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1987 20:39 PST From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Robert Heinlein Some time ago there was a discussion of the relative merits of RAH's works. Let me declare my interest - his books relieve my depressions and I read them repeatedly with pleasure However, in an article in a magazine that I once read he gave some sound advice to young author's which I have made into a poster: 1. Write every day 2. Finish (!) 3. Do not rewrite unless an editor requests it. 4. Put it on the market. 5. Keep it on the market until it sells! He may not have been serious - or was this a fake essay? Does any one else recall where it was published? I had to make the list from memory - is it accurate? And does he practice what he preaches??? Dick Botting, CalState San Ber'do ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 19:33:50 GMT From: borealis!barry@rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Heinlein and the "sex is great" books allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: [Heinlein, sex and family life] >Somehow, I suspect that I'm going to get a LOT of flamage because >of this article. If you won't send it to /dev/null, I will; I'm >not a caveman, I'm capable of looking at reality without hiding in >superstition; if you aren't, I don't want to hear about how I'm >such an evil corrupter of the innocent. You won't hear it from me. I tend to find Heinlein's ideas and observations about sex very sensible, and he's probably been one of the major influences on my own sexual philosophy. But I do think he writes sex scenes very awkwardly, and I'm happiest when he doesn't even attempt it. His characters are always best at talking; after all, they do so much of it :-). His narratives are always rich in dialogue, but short on description, whatever the subject. This works fine for talking about sex as a moral issue, but poorly for illustrating it. Love is another matter. In TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE, "The Tale of the Adopted Daughter" illustrates love beautifully, but sex has nothing to do with it, as both Judy and Brandon note. I think it was Alfred Bester who observed that Heinlein writes sex scenes "as if his mother were looking over his shoulder". As long as this is taken as simile and not psychoanalysis, I'm afraid I agree. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 07:45:36 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >In an article in a magazine that I once read he [Heinlein] gave >some sound advice to young author's which I have made into a >poster: > >1. Write every day >2. Finish (!) >3. Do not rewrite unless an editor requests it. >4. Put it on the market. >5. Keep it on the market until it sells! > >He may not have been serious - or was this a fake essay? Does any >one else recall where it was published? I had to make the list >from memory - is it accurate? Afraid I can't give you a citation, but I am certain that this is a serious essay. I have not seen it itself, but I know that I have read Harlan Ellison discussing it in a column. He quoted these points (I believe your memory is fairly accurate, but since mine may not be that doesn't mean everything), and added that #3 ought to be amended to read "...AND when such rewriting will not violate the integrity either of the story or the author," or words to that effect. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!) UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 13:10:09 GMT From: borealis!barry@rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes: >In an article in a magazine that I once read he gave some sound >advice to young author's which I have made into a poster: > >1. Write every day >2. Finish (!) >3. Do not rewrite unless an editor requests it. >4. Put it on the market. >5. Keep it on the market until it sells! > >He may not have been serious - or was this a fake essay? He was completely serious. >Does any one else recall where it was published? The essay is called "On the Writing of Speculative Fiction", and was published in a symposium called OF WORLDS BEYOND, edited by Lloyd Arthur Eshbach. First publication 1947. >I had to make the list from memory - is it accurate? Yes. >And does he practice what he preaches??? I have heard that RAH was a daily and very disciplined writer up to about 1960, at which point his habits changed somewhat, and he began to write more and more as the mood struck, and less as though it were a 9 to 5 job. If this is true it's interesting, since I feel there's a "looser" feel to his books after about that time, but I don't actually know if the story's true. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 06:18:41 GMT From: percival!leonard@rutgers.edu (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >In an article in a magazine that I once read he [Heinlein] gave >some sound advice to young author's which I have made into a >poster: > >1. Write every day >2. Finish (!) >3. Do not rewrite unless an editor requests it. >4. Put it on the market. >5. Keep it on the market until it sells! The 'essay' was a guest editorial in Analog end was 'merely' a reprint of his speech a the graduation ceremonies at Annapolis. I know I have the issue, but since I have thirty years or so of Analog and can't place it to less than a 15 year span... I'll refrain from looking it up. (unless I get a *lot* of requests) I *think* it was also reprinted in "Expanded Universe" Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 87 02:57:18 GMT From: encore!paradis@rutgers.edu (Jim Paradis) Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein >1. Write every day >2. Finish (!) >3. Do not rewrite unless an editor requests it. >4. Put it on the market. >5. Keep it on the market until it sells! These five rules of writing were also quoted in Ben Bova's "Notes to a Science Fiction Writer", which includes the bibiographic references to the original... : Heinlein, Robert A. "Channel Markers,", _Analog_, January, 1974; also in _Expanded_Universe: __The_New_Worlds_of_Robert_A._Heinlein_, New York: Grosset & Dunlap, 1980. Now to *find* one of these so I can read the whole speech!! :-) Jim Paradis Encore Computer Corp. 257 Cedar Hill St. Marlboro MA 01752 (617) 460-0500 {linus|necntc|ihnp4|decvax|talcott}!encore!paradis ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 24 Mar 87 0905-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #102 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Mar 87 0905-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #102 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 24 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 102 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Mar 87 17:04:45 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) Subject: Re: Large SF cons (was: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report) >Wouldst be possible to further define thy adjectives and labels? >I'm not asking for .semantics, here, but c'mon! > >"rowdies", "young punks", "droves", "age and guardiancy limits" ? Rowdies - n. 1. Someone who runs through the halls at 4AM pounding on room doors at Boskone 24. 2. Someone who pulls fire extinguishers off the wall to have a water fight at Boskone 24. 3. Someone who writes graffitti on hotel hall walls at Boskone 24. Young punks - n. Someone who threatened physical violence to a Boskone 24 staffer. Age and Guardiancy limits - adj. Refers to 16 year who was dropped off at Boskone 24 with no money for a hotel room and barely enough money for food. I was at Boskone 24 and all the above was either directly experienced by my or told to me by the person who saw/experienced/heard it. Danny Low Hewlett-Packard ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 08:54 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Conventions I'm really astounded that there are actually people who argue that a Convention Committee has an obligation to provide something. If fans want input on a convention's programs or policies, they can join the Committee. If fans don't like a convention's programs or policies, they don't have to attend the convention. If a convention's programs or policies don't attract enough members, it will lose money and eventually fold. Isn't this called Free Enterprise (or "freedom" for short)? Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 16:41:46 EST From: Kathy Godfrey Subject: Boskone tower@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Leonard H. Tower Jr.) writes > Is the solution to Boskone's problems, to have NESFA actively > encourage other events at the same time, that would siphon off the > undesirable populations? I'm not sure it would work. After all, attendance by film-viewers at Boskone has increased steadily despite the competition from the Orson Welles Theatre's annual sf film festival, held on the same weekend. (MIT also has an annual all-night sf film marathon the end of January.) I think many people have simply gotten into the habit of attending Boskone. If Boskone is forced out of Boston into the exurbs (say Worcester or Danvers) by hotel problems, maybe attendance will fall because the attendees can't get there from here. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 12:40:52 GMT From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report snuggle@rpiacm.UUCP (Chris Andersen) writes: >First Suggestion: Split Boskone into two conventions to be held at >different times and at different locations. How would they be different besides time and location? If they were both run the same as the last Boskone, you would just have twice as much trouble. >Second Suggestion: Make Boskone bi-annual, thus giving NESFA more >time to set things up. I don't see what this would gain. Maybe you think the hotel and the people who put in the work to run Boskone would be likely to forget the problems over a two year period? >Third Suggestion: Make Boskone a floating regional convention in >the Northeast. Local SF groups can bid on it like Worldcon and >when they win the bid, THEY take off some of the workload from >NESFA (yeah, I know, Boskone not held in Boston!! Perish the >thought!) Although there is certainly an enormous amount of work involved in Boskone, that has little to do with the current problems. The problems are that Boskone is being tossed out of all the big hotels and is being infested with persons that are considered undesirable by the hotels, by SF professional groups, and by those who put in the work to run Boskone. Undesirable because of vandalism, lack of discerable interest in SF, a tendency to view the whole affair as a weekend long party with free booze, etc., and many of these undesirables fail to even pay for membership. Of the 24 Boskones, at least 3 have been outside of the city of Boston: one in Cambridge, one in Andover, and one in Danvers, all in Massachusetts. >Somehow I'd rather see a less frequent convention or a floating one >then one that may be ruined by possibly Draconian restrictions. You don't seem to grasp that Boskone has already been changed drastically and irrevocably by the undesirables. The next Boskone will be around ONE THIRD the size of the last Boskone due to physical facilities limits. There will be people who want to go the Boskone 25 who will have to be excluded because the facilities where everyone fits don't want us anymore. Donald E. Eastlake, III ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee +1 617-492-8860 ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 13:09:22 GMT From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) Subject: Re: Possible NOREASCON problems with Hotel rkolker@netxcom.uucp (Rick Kolker) Writes: >It's still too early, as i understand there are still negotiations >going on, but some early ideas re: if 89 not= Boston (due to hotel >hassles) > >According to the World Science Fiction Association (WSFA) >constitution That's the World Science Fiction Society (WSFS). WSFA is the acronym for the Washington Science Fiction Association in the Washington DC area that puts on Disclave, etc. >(Not in front of me at this minute, but I looked at it over the >weekend) The 89 Worldcon is in the hands of the Boston group until >such time as they relinquish it, or a committee made up of the >chairs of the existing Worldcon Committees decides it is defunct >(unlikely at best). You are remembering very old WSFS consitutional provisions. The present constitution says that if a Worldcon committee is "unable to perform its duties" the other of the three future Worldcons whose site is closest has primary responsibility for taking care of the problem. For Boston, that would be the Nolacon II Committee. However, they are required to consult the WSFS Business Meeting if there is time and the next one of those will be at Conspiracy '87, this year's Worldcon, in Brighton, UK. It seems unlikely that any of these provisions will be invoked. >There is no requirement I can find in the constitution that MSSF >(Sp?) That's Massachusetts Convention Fandom, Inc., MCFI >hold the convention in Boston, just in the eastern region as >defined in Well, it is unclear but the consitution keeps talking about selecting the "location and committee" for a Worldcon. On the other hand, the location was changed in 1977 without going through any special procedure. >the constitution. As past reference I give you 1977, where the con >passed through three cities and four hotels on its way to Miami >Beach. (or was it Miami?) It moved only once, from Orlando to Miami Beach. Donald E. Eastlake, III ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee +1 617-492-8860 ------------------------------ Date: 19-Mar-1987 1314 From: nylander%eyrie.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Chip) Subject: Re: Boskone One comment: The convention organizers, since they are the "real workers" and have final responsibility for the convention, DO have the right to organize it anyway they like. (If I was organizing it, for example, I would de-empahsize most post-1965 written SF, except for a few select craftwriters like Gene Wolfe). If there is going to be a major change in programming, however, the convention organizers have a RESPONSIBILITY to publicize that LOUDLY and CLEARLY in all pre-convention information and mailings. To do otherwise is to trade on the expectations of the media-lovers, take their money, and then not provide the service that 1980's Boskones have led them to expect. That's dishonest. Furthermore, if it is not well-publicized, the crowds will not be diminished significantly. I will be eagerly looking forward to future Boskone information, to see how this is handled. chip ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 14:15:37 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker) Subject: Re: Possible NOREASCON problems with Hotel dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes: >rkolker@netxcom.uucp (Rick Kolker) Writes: >>It's still too early, as i understand there are still negotiations >>going on, but some early ideas re: if 89 not= Boston (due to hotel >>hassles) >> >>According to the World Science Fiction Association (WSFA) >>constitution > >That's the World Science Fiction Society (WSFS). WSFA is the >acronym for the Washington Science Fiction Association in the >Washington DC area that puts on Disclave, etc. OOPS! That's what I get for being a member (okay so my WSFA dues aren't paid up...) >>(Not in front of me at this minute, but I looked at it over the >>weekend) The 89 Worldcon is in the hands of the Boston group until >>such time as they relinquish it, or a committee made up of the >>chairs of the existing Worldcon Committees decides it is defunct >>(unlikely at best). > >You are remembering very old WSFS consitutional provisions. The >present constitution says that if a Worldcon committee is "unable >to perform its duties" the other of the three future Worldcons >whose site is closes has primary responsibility for taking care of >the problem. For Boston, that would be the Nolacon II Committee. >However, they are required to consult the WSFS Business Meeting if >there is time and the next one of those will be at Conspiracy '87, >this year's Worldcon, in Brighton, UK. It seems unlikely that any >of these provisions will be invoked. I didn't consider the hotel problem to be "unable to perform its duties". I was just saying it was the committee's con, not the city's. >>There is no requirement i can find in the constitution that MSSF >>(Sp?) > >That's Massachusetts Convention Fandom, Inc., MCFI More OOPS...why has fandom gotten acronym happy? I'll quit now, Don. I fully expect Worldcon to be in Boston in 1989 and for it to be as well run as NESFA/MCFI cons traditionally are. Keep us informed. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 14:35:44 EST From: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: More About Boskone. Some more of my 2 cents about Boskone (Roughly $0.0007): 1) Boskone's location is not responsible for it's large attendance. If this were true, LUNACON would have 9500 attendees. 2) It is my opinion that Boskone has aspects that separate it from the "pack": a)The best art show this side of worldcon, b) parties with lots of free booze. If the people at NESFA took the long view, they could just stop advertising the con, and memberships would fall gradually. Can someone out there confirm or deny the rumor that NESFA will be banning alcohol at open parties? It seems to me that eliminating significant parts of the program and still having alcohol at open parties will give the impression that Boskone is about parties, not Sci-Fi (Terminology intended see earlier issues of SF-Lovers). My belief is that the 'real' problem with Boskone is that NESFA has *NEVER* defined the problem, nor have they clearly stated their final goal for the Boskone. They have been too busy crisis managing. Matthew Saroff ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 21 Mar 1987 10:42:52-PST From: djpl%hulk.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (The Wizard) Subject: SF cons [and Boskone] Regarding all the talk about reduced size Boskones, etc. I typically only get to go to one *maybe* two cons, tops. It's not a financial problem, it's more logistical in getting away for a few days with a bunch of friends at the same time. For the con(s) that I go to, I naturally want to go to the best one simply becaus I can't get to many at all. Up until now, that con was Boskone. There was/is no other con that had as many people, with so much varied programming happening. I've been to 5 of the last 6 Boskones. This last one ['87, XXIV] had in the neighborhood of 4375 people [according to the final Helmuth]. The updates that I got led me to believe it would be just like XXIII. They were wrong. There was no video program, for one, and the films were drastically cut back for another. There were no studio presentations either. The worst part was the dealer's room. The flyer said "about the same size as last year" and that they were being more careful about book dealers duplicating titles. Well, there was a lot more empty space in the dealer's room because they laid out the tables MUCH differently. Best guesstimate is that this was around 2/3 the size of last year. I read books. I also go to the movies and I watch a little television. When I go to a con, I would like *all* of that. Most of the people I go with feel the same way. There's just something intangible about going to a place with 5000 of your closest friends. Here in NH, there isn't much to do so cons are big events. Maybe Boskone should farm out the events they no longer wish to handle. If they don't want to do a video program, let someone else do it. The point is that Boskone has come to mean more to a lot of people. With them scaling back their scope, there won't be a regional be-all end-all con in this area. It looks like the next one around here will be Noreascon [Worldcon '89]. My belief is that NESFA could make Boskone a joint effort with other groups so that they could get their help and still keep the best con in the Northeast growing. NESFA is complaining that Boskone is too big for them. Well, I, for one, would rather see Boskone continue in the path that it began to take than see it diminished. I can see a lot of 'in memoriam' t-shirts [Veteran of Boskone Glory Years]. Are there any NESFAns listening? If you need help, ask! I'm sure there are groups out there that would love to help make a Boskone. Comments? dj ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 23:36:20 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Con at a Westin hotel (was Re: Boskone) dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes: >This seems a bit overblown. The Westin has always been too high >class for any kind of SF convention and has consistently rejected >all approaches. As for the others of the big three, some >discussions are Not true. The World Fantasy Con that was held in Ottawa (1983?) was held at the Westin. I can't think of a more beautiful hotel... I wonder what nice things the World Fantasy Con said that made them look that attractive? "Sercons" might find themselves better received. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 87 08:15:00 GMT From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: Boskone dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes: >This seems a bit overblown. The Westin has always been too high >class for any kind of SF convention and has consistently rejected >all approaches. I was at a Boskone held at the Westin a few years ago. At the time we were told they were being trained in for use as an auxilliary hotel for the worldcon coming up. The restaurants, in particular, were very ill- mannered. David Dyer-Bennet UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 24 Mar 87 1017-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #103 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Mar 87 1017-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #103 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 24 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 103 Today's Topics: Books - Kurtz (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Mar 1987 20:00-EST From: sal%brandeis.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: more Kurtz speculations (Spoiler) > As far as Michaela Drummond goes - my fuzzed brain couldnt > figure how this is supposed to work but Katherine said that James > Drummond although related to Camber is not necessarily Deryni and > neither is his daughter as far as the Regents know. Camber's > sister apparently wasn't the only relative not to marry a Deryni > spouse. But Michaela's mother was Cathan's widow... And Davin and Ansel were definitely Deryni - and known to be such by the regents (remember Davin was blamed by the regents for the assassination attempt on the princes). Oh well, it should be fun to see her plots twist - and I hope that they improve beyond Deus Ex Machina once she gets back to the better developed characters (in my opinion, anyway). I have to admit that I was a little disappointed by the Quest for St. Camber... Oh well, speculation is always fun... Sarah E. Chodrow CSNET : sal@brandeis USENET : allegra!zeppo!sec ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 05:05:07 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes: >'easy to train'. The Haldane ritual can be explained in one, or >both, of two ways, I think. > >a) It functions primarily to remove a *suppression* applied >specially to the Haldanes because of the explosive potential of >having too many people in the same family with powers. I don't think this one holds. Trained Deryni are nearly as powerful as a Haldane [granted we haven't seen a person with Haldane-Type power loose to a Deryni yet.] I don't see how a suppression would have been applied. BTW part of my problem with this is that it caries across generations. Katherine told me that children of Healer-blocked Deryni have normal (for Deryni) potentials. >We see that the Haldane situation is special when we are told that >Conal, as heir, is *expected* to be picking up some powers simply >by virtue of being heir. Surely in no other family do men begin to >gain the power because their legal status has changed. The comment to this effect by Dennis Arilan was made because Dennis (though I really do like the character) doesn't know what he is talking about. Kelson said that some of his abilities started manifesting before Brion's death and thus didn't see any problem with giving Nigel partial power. He made no mention of this starting with a change in legal status. I've often wondered why the Council believed for so long that only one Haldane could hold the power. When did Mahael of Arjenol get his potentapotential activated? If it was before Lionel's death then we have an instant counterexample. If it was after Lionel's death (and Wencit's) then who set his potential. One could argue that Lionel did. However Lionel had sons and therefore would have made them not Mahael his magical heir. On the other hand Wencit was demonstrably sceptical of restrictions on "forbidden" things and would have had no conceptual problem with both Lionel and a potentially useful vassal like Mahael having power at the same time. >By the way, not to complicate matters or anything, but it seems >fairly clear that there is no such thing as 'Deryni' powers as >opposed to 'human' powers. I may slip up at times and use the term Human Power to mean Haldane-type or Y' chromosome type potential. Of course there are people who definitely do not fit in with known potential groups but who do have talents For example: When Camber is sorting through Alister's memories he remembers Alister's quandries with a human with healer-like psychic sensitivity. Alister was uncomfortable with special talents so he pondered whether to have the talent trained or to have the lad put through a normalization regimen. We never did find out his decision - however it does show that such abilities exist. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Development ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 05:45:38 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes: >>>But the power rituals are for the Haldane power, which comes >>>full-blown at the moment of assumption. [ I wrote this - >>>Shoshanna ] >>Right. Warin is an example of what happens if you have the talent >>without the training. Also, we've seen several cases of men with >>the potential being 'easy to train'. Sean Michael O'Flyn, Earl of Derry is an example of this. >I don't see how Warin follows, here. Are you saying that Warin has >the "Haldane-type" power? Are you claiming, then, that he probably >went through a Haldane-type power ritual? Or are you saying that >Warin is actually Deryni (my own theory--imagine his face! He and >Jehana could start their own support group...) I really don't think Warin is a Haldane type. On the other hand I attribute Cinhil's shields as being due to the mantal disciplines of the OVD partially triggering some aspects of the Haldane potential. Perhaps Warin's fervent belief by chance did the same thing? I really don't know. Where do some of the miracle producing Saints come from (other than Deryni faking it that is :-)) >For example, Cinhil's children's powers are set when they are very >young. Presumably the form of the assumption ritual is determined >at that time; recall that Brion had arranged a specific ritual for >Kelson, and much of "Deryni Rising" hung on whether Morgan et al. >could figure it out. Cinhil's children were set so that when they became king and they touched the Ring of Fire the potential would be triggered. Note this change of legal status was woven into the setting - and doesn't justify Dennis' speculations about Conall's emergent powers. I don't know if Kelson had had any formal preparation done on him before Deryni Rising. Brion never liked to use his powers - it was Morgan and Duncan who gave Kelson what limited amounts of occult training he had. The ritual he left behind was probably a guide so that Morgan and Duncan could bring Kelson to power in spite of not having a firm grounding on the theory. Katherine has hinted also that Morgan was prepared in a special way vis-a-vis the Haldane power by King Donal. The ritual Brion left behind probably took this into account. >I don't think that Haldane men (women? Never been a reigning queen >that we know of) actually begin to gain their powers when their >legal status changes, except in that they expect to. Although the >triggers could be set in infancy to effect this; since the powers >are psionic/psychological/mind-controlled, it should be possible to >have the knowledge that one is the heir have an effect. Katherine has stated that Haldane-type power is transmitted through the male line only. I cant think of any counter examples to go against this. An interesting thought though on the sex linked qualities of the various talents. Haldane-type power is said to descend thorough the male line. Deryni power through the female. Healing talents seem to go through either or both. We don't really know in Dughal's case whether his mother had any healing talents. However we do know that Evaine and her father Camber definitely did not. Both knew exactly what their skills were and if they had been healers they would have known Camber in fact tried to learn. Without success. Rhys' children by Evaine were healers meaning that the extra talents that go along with and make up the Healing potential are not necessarily sex-linked. >Sure. No one in this universe claims that Deryni and humans are >different species; they interbreed! But there do seem to be Now is probably a good time to drop another comment made by Katherine at Confusion: "Deryni are not Non-Human. They are perfected-human." >Whether all humans (persons without Deryni-type power) can assume >Haldane-type power is unknown. Certainly it is nearly treason and >blasphemy in some circles to suggest it. I really doubt that they can. The Haldanes and other lines have always demonstrated detectable potential over and above what is normally associated with humans. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Development ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 06:47:14 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes: >>My personal theory is that the power potential is associated with >>the human ruling houses of the original Eleven Kingdom's >> ... [some of my ramblings deleted] ... > >I don't think Torenth is one of the Eleven Kingdoms. Aren't the >so-called "Eleven Kingdoms" the small kingdoms over which the king >of Gwynedd, which is one of them, is high king? Kelson is king of >Gwynedd, and therefore overlord of the kings of Llanadd, Howice, >and all the others whose names I can't remember because they're >mostly unimportant. (For instance, the Princess Janniver's father >is a king who owes fealty to Kelson.) We haven't really seen much >of the political organization of the Eleven Kingdoms (except as it >relates to Meara!); some of this is extrapolated from what we've >been told... In the front of at least the mass market edition of Camber of Culdi there is an excerpt from the Lay of Lord Llewellyn that lists the ancient Eleven Kingdoms. They are: 1. Torenth 2. Tolan 3. Kheldour 4. "Mountainous Meara" 5. "the Fierce Connait"(sp?) 6. Howicce 7. Llannedd 8. "myrth ridden Mooryn" (Carthmoor & Corwyn in Kelson's time) 9. Eastmarch 10. "far flung Gwynedd, seat of the Haldane Kings" 11. "lost Caeress, which sank beneath the sea" The quotes from the poem are approximate. I think I'll memorize it over break. (That book is at home) As to Kelson being overlord to all of the Eleven Kingdoms I don't think so. Although he certainly has a better claim on the title than anyone else. By my count he has Gwynedd, Eastmarch, Mooryn, Meara, Kheldour, and since the Gwynedd-Torenth war of 1120, Torenth and Tolan as well. Lets see - that makes 7 of a currently possible 10. ( I suppose he could claim to be overlord of Caeress - I don't see much point to it though. blub. blub.) Any claim by individual kings to hegemony over the whole of the Eleven Kingdoms is I suspect closer to the form of Kingship over the whole of England before Alfred the Great. There are historians who will assure you that there were such. However the real title was "Bretwalda" or leader of the Britons. It was not hereditary and consisted mostly of one of the Kings being strong enough to say what's what and not having another King's army trash him. I suspect that oaths to the contrary this is how Gwynedd's overlordship of Torenth and Tolan will work. Kelson is strong enough to enforce it at the moment (barely, it helps that he has the King of Torenth where he can watch him) but under a weak King that overlordship will quickly become very nominal if not forgotten. I don't think that Howicce and Llanedd are vassal states. Neither monarch has ever shown up at Kelson's court or been mentioned as delivering military service to him other than in a mercenary capacity. Connait I also don't know about but I suppose it could go either way (but I doubt it more with every thought I give it) >I think that later books, since the postscript on genetics was >published, have pretty much forced us not to rely on it as an >explanation of Deryni inheritance. (Has anyone specifically asked >her if she still means to hold to it?) I went and looked Calder up >in the index to people in Quest, and it's *real* unlikely that a >Deryni would side with Loris, don't you think? And if he's a Deryni >and doesn't know it, how did he get past ordination? His siding with Loris is why I didn't think him the likely subject of a miracle. Calder could quite easily not be Deryni. On the other hand supposed he was ordained somewhere out of the way by a mountain priest and just happened to slip by. Or he is a member of an even-more-super-secret-than-the-Camberian-Council Camberian Conspiracy assigned to keep an eye on Loris. (here I'm really going off the deep end. blub. blub. (Maybe I'll go visit my friends in Caeress)) Last I heard from her on the subject (last January) the Genetics were still official. BTW on Calder I just was suggesting that someone should check, however since no one in Gwynedd understands Genetics it probably won't be done (sigh, another loose end never to be tied up). Of course if you take him slipping through by accident (or with unknowing help - perhaps a more-than-you-want-to-believe-conspiracy helped him without his knowledge) (blub. blub) Then he could be another candidate for the Waren de Grey/Queen Jehana "we're Deryni but can't handle it" support group. Brings me to another tangent that I thought of though I don't have the relevant book up here to check on. Katherine has hinted that Dennis helped Duncan through his ordination. This means that Dennis knew Duncan was Deryni LONG before the St. Torin's affair. However I seem to recall that Dennis specifically told the Camberian Council in High Deryni that he had no reason before then to believe Duncan was Deryni. Is Dennis keeping secrets from the Council? Why since the council is the group that attempted to get him through. Was Duncan a personal project that he did on his own because he knew that the Council would disapprove of his risking his position for a mere half-Deryni? Or is Dennis apart of one of the above mentioned conspiracies and knew Duncan was Deryni because this conspiracy managed to keep surreptitious track of all of Camber's Descendants. (Katherine mentions in her preface to the Kighting of Derry that Morgan & Duncan are descended from Rhys and Evaine) I don't know. (Caeresse is just comming into sight now... See you when I get back Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Development ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 06:17:38 GMT From: percival!leonard@rutgers.edu (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: Saint Bearand Haldane sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >Which still leaves the question: why was he canonized? (Miracles >apparently aren't necessary for canonization in the Eleven >Kingdoms; we never hear of the late Bishop Istelyn performing any. >I thought that the Catholic Church required evidence of miracles to >canonize someone (in our universe, this is); can anyone >knowledgable say whether this is so?) Well, while not as knowledgable as I might be I'll take a stab at this... The current requirements for sainthood require several miracles *after* death. This rules is <200 years old. It may be less than 100. The requirements used to be a *lot* looser. Saint Josaphat (sp?) was canonized because what filtered back to to the West sounded fairly close to Christian teachings and he 'seemed holy'. Much later it was discovered that 'Josaphat' was a 'teacher' known as Buddha.... (ooops!) "A Canticle for Liebowitz" by Miller goes into *great* detail about the process of canonization. Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 24 Mar 87 1105-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #104 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Mar 87 1105-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #104 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 24 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 104 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Terminology (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Mar 87 23:33:58 GMT From: endot!hinch@rutgers.edu (cream kid) Subject: Re: Terminology and Genres todd@uhccux.UUCP (The Perplexed Wiz) writes >The linking factor of all SF (and Fantasy too) is that the reader >is asked to be willing to suspend disbelief a bit further than in >other types of fiction. The reader is asked to accept premises >that are beyond what we normally consider "reality." The reader is >asked a big "What If." "What if faster than light travel were >possible?" "What if you could move through time?" "What if you >could ride a winged flying dragon." "What if the Roman Empire >never fell?" ...todd Then perhaps WHATIFICTION or WHAT IF FICTION or similar could more clearly identify the genre (which I too believe it is). Frederick Hinchliffe 2nd ENDOT, Inc. 11001 Cedar Ave Cleveland, OH 44106 Usenet: decvax!cwruecmp!endot!hinch 216.229.8900 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 05:13:57 GMT From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Terminology: sci-fi vs. sf barry@borealis.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes: >I've been assuming the origin of the term 'sci-fi' was too well >known to bear retelling, but maybe not. Forrest J. Ackerman (AKA >"Mr. Science Fiction") claims it's his term, and I know of no rival >claimants for the honor. So you got that right. > > The impression I have is that a lot of the SF community *never* >liked the term, and heaven knows why. In any case, like all terms, >it gets defined by how it's used, and among the fen, it's usually >used to denote bad SF, and particularly bad SF on film. The mundane >world, of course, still uses it as a synonym for all science >fiction. So, last I heard, does Forrey. But the term was *never* as >widespread inside the SF world as it is outside. It was popularized >by journals like TIME magazine, not by ASTOUNDING or F&SF. > Me, I like 'skiffy', but I'm just a Philistine :-). I think it's worth pointing out that the mundane world at large uses the term "sci-fi" to denote exactly the same qualitative distinction that we fen use; i.e., when a mundane (especially a literary mundane) uses the phrase "sci-fi", he means "bad science fiction". For most mundanes, the terms "science fiction" and "bad science fiction" are completely synonymous. The popular media need simple, all embracing formulae by which they can jam the greatest amount of information into the smallest amount of space. "Sci-fi" fits the bill extremely well, since it is unambiguous, tiny, cutesy and memorable; and above all, there is no way that anyone can mistake something that's been labelled "sci-fi" for something that is actually worthy of the attention of an intelligent consumer, and the underintelligent just won't care. After all, we all know that Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., and Jorge Luis Borges, and Margaret Atwood, and Thomas Pynchon, and Jonathan Swift, and Gabriel Garcia Marquez, and Stephen King, and John Collier don't write "science fiction", or there'd be pictures of rocket ships on the covers and they'd be filed under "SF" in all the book stores. But Gene Wolfe and Ursula LeGuin and George R.R. Martin and Norman Spinrad and Thomas Disch and Phillip K. Dick all write that silly "sci-fi" hooey, and we don't want to bother with that, we'd rather talk about the latest Rabbit book or argue about why Joyce says "Hoopsa boyaboy hoopsa" three times instead of two at the beginning of chapter 14 of _Ulysses_ or rave about yuppie sleaze novels. And of course, in movies it's worse, but then, movies deserve much worse. And while I've got the attention of a perceptable number of people: How do you think we folk down in comics land feel about all this? I mean, you want a phrase that's loaded down with pejorative connotations, just describe something as being "comic-book". We don't deserve quite this much abuse, grumble mutter gripe... And if I see one more mundane article on comics that begins, "Pow! Bang! Whack! Comics aren't just for kids anymore!", I think I'll fracture someone. Anyway, I still don't like the term "sci-fi", mainly because I think it sounds silly and trivial. As I've said before, when people begin referring to William Styron as "li-fi" (literary fiction), _then_ I will accept it. Not before. Kevin J. Maroney mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 18:28:08 GMT From: lyang%jennifer@Sun.COM (Larry Yang) Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker >Excuse me Russell, but many of us call ourselves Trekkers to >distinguish ourselves from Star Trek groupies (Trekkies). OK. How about: Star Trek Enthusiasts Star Trek Aficionados Star Trek Connoisseur ?? ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 87 00:24:30 GMT From: dma@euler.Berkeley.EDU (D. M. Auslander) Subject: Re: Terminology: sci-fi vs. sf kjm@dg_rtp.UUCP (Kevin Maroney) writes: >After all, we all know that Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., and Jorge Luis >Borges, and Margaret Atwood, and Thomas Pynchon, and Jonathan >Swift, and Gabriel Garcia Marquez, and Stephen King, and John >Collier don't write "science fiction", or there'd be pictures of >rocket ships on the covers and they'd be filed under "SF" in all >the book stores. But Gene Wolfe and Ursula LeGuin and George R.R. >Martin and Norman Spinrad and Thomas Disch and Phillip K. Dick all >write that silly "sci-fi" hooey, and we don't want to bother with >that, we'd rather talk about the latest Rabbit book or argue about >why Joyce says "Hoopsa boyaboy hoopsa" three times instead of two >at the beginning of chapter 14 of _Ulysses_ or rave about yuppie >sleaze novels. The problem I see is that many writers ghettoize themselves by writing in only one genre. The first science fiction book I read was Vonnegut's "Cat's Cradle". The only people who told me it WASN'T science fiction were the s.f. fans. Back in 1970 I guess he hadn't made enough money to stop being ghettoized. Of course, Vonnegut has also published a lot of mainstream stories and plays (No sf in Happy Birthday, Wanda June, though a bit of fantasy). As another example, Maragaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale" is definitely speculative fiction (this is the term she used to describe its genre) but all of her other novels are "mainstream" fiction. With a few exceptions, many sf writers haven't attempted to publish non-sf stuff. (An obvious exception is Asimov, who has written some very nice mysteries and tons of not very good nonfiction.) This problem is certainly by no means unique to sf - mysteries, romance, western novels are all ghettoized. I hate it when people assume it's frivolous to read "Buried for Pleasure" but it isn't frivolous to read "Great Expectations" - especially because I think that Edmund Crispin wrote infinitely better than Charles Dickens. >Anyway, I still don't like the term "sci-fi", mainly because I >think it sounds silly and trivial. As I've said before, when people >begin referring to William Styron as "li-fi" (literary fiction), >_then_ I will accept it. I think li-fi is sort of cute. The problem is that an awful lot of mainstream fiction is more accurately described as trash-fi. Miriam Nadel ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 13:32:05 GMT From: gil@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Gil Neiger) Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker Another note about the terms "trekkie" and "trekker". Although the latter is definitely newer, it is not very new anymore. I recall it being used at a Star Trek convention I attended in NYC in 1973. Gil ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 14:34:35 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Terminology: sci-fi vs. sf dma@euler.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP writes: >With a few exceptions, many sf writers haven't attempted to publish >non-sf stuff. ... How about: Gene Wolfe, Tom Disch, Ursula LeGuin, J.G. Ballard, Kate Wilhelm, ... just to name a few. A number of our best SF authors have indeed published outside the genre. I'll wager I could come up with a much larger list than the above if I tried. Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 16:40:06 GMT From: scirtp!george@rutgers.edu (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.) Subject: Re: SF terminology/classifications > I think Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun is a great example of the > hazy borderlines. Well, it's hazy; I'll give it that. Unfortunately, it has many worse problems than mere haziness. > The Pocket editions I have are even labeled differently: > The Shadow of the Torturer is labeled Fantasy, > The Claw of the Conciliator is Science Fantasy, > The Sword of the Lictor and The Citadel of the Autarch are > Science Fiction! So; labelers are imperfect. > If pressed, I'd call it Science Fantasy. Any other opinions? Glad you asked. Yes, I have another opinion. First of all, I will grant that it qualifies as SF in the broadest sense (Speculative Fiction). Secondly, if I had to pick a sub-genre, I would very dismissively just say "Fantasy" without any qualifications of any kind. There is nothing in the entire series that begins to explain any "science" that may or may not be operating. The Revolutionary is practically the only scientific (as opposed to probably-magical) artifact in the entire series, and the science behind it is not even hinted at. The more interesting borderline on which this whole series lies in my personal opinion is that between gold and dross. It has 5 or 6 good ideas weaved into 4 long books in a fashion that I personally found dreadfully un-entertaining and minimally edifying. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 17:28:23 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: fanspeak (was Re: Convention discussion) pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes: [ short discussion by others (incl. me) of term "serfen" deleted ] >Aw come on guys. No wonder non science fiction readers extract the >urine if the people who read science fiction go round coming up >with daft terms like 'fen' & 'serfen' etc. etc. ad nauseum. [ ... ] >We are adults aren't we if they start to insult us or look upon >science fiction with disdain why do we have to circle the wagons >and start to snipe back at them with our stupid, cliquey jargon. "Fanspeak" is not necessarily "stupid, cliquey jargon". I enjoy it partly because it does connote a sense of community among fans. There really is such a sense of community, and it's one of the big reasons I enjoy conventions; just about everyone there is friendly and approachable. That's not to say that everyone is objectively or even subjectively pleasant, but the atmosphere is easygoing and I like it very much. Fanspeak as an "in-group" jargon reinforces this, but it does *not* necessarily involve the exclusion of others. (If I meant it to, I would not have posted an explanation as soon as someone asked!) It is possible to have a sense of community that is founded on inclusion, not exclusion. Also, some concepts are difficult to express without a certain vocabulary. In an earlier posting I referred to "trufannish" conventions. I spent some time trying to come up with a better, non-jargon term, and couldn't. I do not use fanspeak as a way to "swipe back at" people who look at sf with disdain. I do not use fanspeak to shut out others. I do not use fanspeak as a way to dismiss the opinions of people who don't share knowledge of the jargon. I do not consider trufandom an "elite clique", to use another of your phrases. (If it were, I'd be shut out of it.) >We are arguing about books for ghod's sake, you know, [ ... ] You do realize, don't you, that the spelling of "god" with an "h" is a piece of fannish jargon? > Just out of interest. If somebody came up to you and asked you why >you read sci-fi how would you respond. As follows: "Well, first, I don't really like the term 'sci-fi' because it has some really negative associations. I read science fiction and speculative fiction because it can explore questions that no other genre of fiction can: questions about the effect of technology on society, about the implications of the existence or non-existence of other intelligent life in the universe, questions about patterns of societal change, and many more. I find it endlessly fascinating." Often I am then asked about "the negative implications of the term 'sci-fi'". I answer that by saying that many people associate the phrase with "Star Wars", "Battlestar Galactica", and similar trashy space opera (no flames please, I liked Star Wars too but I wouldn't claim it's art). While much of sf is trashy, as is much of every genre (and here I might quote Sturgeon's Law [90% of everything is sh*t]), sf at its best is extraordinary and does not deserve to be judged by its most pulp-ish examples. I do not take every excuse to jump on hapless mundanes and neo-fen for their well-meaning but ignorant use of the phrase "sci-fi". Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!) UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 87 23:58:20 GMT From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte) Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker gwe@cbosgd.UUCP (Bill Thacker) writes: >If I wished to label myself because of my interest in ST (and I >don't), I would prefer to be referred to as a Trekker. To me, and >many others not of the ST affiliation, "Trekkie" has the >distinctive odor of "Hippy", "Yuppy", "Preppy", or "Moonie". I >find it demeaning. It connotes mindlessness, a slavish, >nigh-religious addiction to ST. Why don't you fill us in? What do you find "demeaning" and "mindless" about the term or the type of person called "hippie"? Perhaps you got all your information on hippies from watching "The Way To Eden." :-) And although my value set differs greatly from those of yuppies, preppies, and moonies, I do not mind being referred to as a "Trekkie" or with any other appropriate "-ie" postfix, because I know that I have a set of values, just as all those other "-ies" have their respective sets of values. Since you brought up the point of mindlessness, let's talk about mindlessness. Let's also talk about pointlessness, idiocy, and irrelevance. So some people use the term "Trekkie" to refer to you. So what? YOU know who you are. Why should you care about the connotation some people may derive from some reasonably polite term, in this case "Trekkie," used to refer to you? THIS ARGUMENT JUST IS NOT WORTH YOUT TIME AND TROUBLE. Matthew Belmonte Internet: BITNET: UUCP: ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 04:53:32 GMT From: gsmith@weyl.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Re: fanspeak (was Re: Convention discussion) sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >"Fanspeak" is not necessarily "stupid, cliquey jargon". There is no absolute necessity for it to be stupid, cliquey jargon. It just happens to be a fact that it *is* stupid, cliquey jargon. What is really funny is how so many of the "fen" who like this sf version of valspeak are the same people who are insulted over the ghettoization of sf. The solution, of course, is not to read anything but sf, and to deride anyone who does as a "mundane". >I do not take every excuse to jump on hapless mundanes and neo-fen >for their well-meaning but ignorant use of the phrase "sci-fi". What about people like me who sometimes use the term to annoy people like you? Gene Ward Smith UCB Math Dept Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ucbvax!weyl!gsmith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 24 Mar 87 1300-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #105 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Mar 87 1300-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #105 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 24 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 105 Today's Topics: Books - Duane & Gibson (2 msgs) & Harrison & Hubbard (2 msgs) & Purnelle (2 msgs) & Pratchett (2 msgs) & Preuss & Ryan (2 msgs) & Schmitz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Mar 87 10:54:55 EST From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) From: Subject: Series requests Diane Duane has two excellent series going. One is THE TALE OF THE FIVE, also known as the "DOOR" series. THE DOOR INTO FIRE and THE DOOR INTO SHADOW are the first two chapters about the Middle Kingdoms. THE DOOR INTO SUNSET is written, but not published, and THE DOOR INTO STARLIGHT is yet to come. The other series is the "Wizard" series, set in our world. The first two books, SO YOU WANT TO BE A WIZARD and DEEP WIZARDRY have focused on Kit and Nita, two very powerful young wizards. The third book, whose title I can never remember, will focus on Nita's sister Dairene. It should come out in a year or so. Her Star Trek books aren't really a series, so though they're the best of the ST novels, I won't mention THE WOUNDED SKY and MY ENEMY, MY ALLY here. ------------------------------ Date: Sun 22 Mar 87 12:08:03-PST From: This space for rent Subject: Gibson and Delany So, I see that someone dislikes Gibson's NEUROMANCER, giving the reasons that it has poor characterization and no central theme. It often strikes me that most people know when they like or dislike something, but can't really give a coherent explanation for the reason why. When asked, people recite cliches like "poor characterization" even if they don't really seem to apply. In the case of NEUROMANCER, I think it might be a little closer to what's going on to say that there's none of the sentimentality or nostalgia that a lot of people seem to find so comforting in things like Star Trek. (Still, the cyberpunk futures really are not dystopias. They're certainly not perfect worlds, but from a certain point of view, they may be the best possible...). And while I'm at it, in what sense can Delany's work be described as all style and no substance? Does this apply to *any* of Delany's stuff, except possibly DHALGREN? Have you ever read BABEL-17, NOVA, TRITON, or STARS IN MY POCKET? ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 87 14:26:40 GMT From: obnoxio@brahms (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Subject: Neuromancer J.JBRENNER@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU writes: >It often strikes me that most people know when they like or dislike >something, but can't really give a coherent explanation for the >reason why. When asked, people recite cliches like "poor >characterization" even if they don't really seem to apply. Hear, hear! I found _Neuromancer_ an interesting experience. My friends warned me against it, but said read it if you really want to find out what cyberpunk is. And while reading it, I kept saying, "Oh God, it's just BLADE RUNNER crossed with TRON, with a Wolverine character thrown in, and all rather blatant. Just what do I care about all these junkies, anyway?" (Wolverine comes from the comics, by the way. He has adamantine claws and hyper-reflexes. I like very much all three of the allusions, and so felt it was rather a rip off.) Every 30 pages, I had to convince myself to not chuck the book. I did not find something to smile over until the "no shit" exchange between Wintermute and Case at the very end of the book. So I finished the book, and didn't like it. Yet I kept trying to place in words what I didn't like about the book. And you know what? Damn if the book didn't keep getting better and better. And now--I like it. I like it a lot! I'm sure I'll reread it eventually, and this time enjoy it while I read it. Rather coincidentally, while waiting in a supermarket line, I somehow was looking at this month's SPIN magazine--normally something I would never have a reason to do--and there was a rather brief article on cyberpunk that put Gibson and _Neuromancer_ in a historical perspective with the likes of Kerouac and Pynchon. No shit! [Speaking of comics, and as an aside on the sf vs sci-fi debate, I just couldn't care less how many people think comics are stupid and juvenile. *I* like them, and that suffices. Indeed, I get a kick out of the paradoxical reactions of my students when they see stacks of the X-Men, Conan, and the like lying around my office. "Huh?"] Matthew P Wiener Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 87 19:44:42 GMT From: pur-phy!dub@rutgers.edu Subject: Bill, the Galactic Hero ( Incredibly minor spoilers ahead, so don't worry too much.) I just finished reading BILL, THE GALATIC HERO by Harry Harrison. I originally picked up the book on a recommendation from this network that it was like the father to Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I can now say that it is indeed somewhat related to HhGttG. It has the same silly, idiotic humor that worked quite well in HhGttG but the mood of BILL is oh so very different. HhGttG's silliness was a nice silliness. Bizarre stuff happened and it was funny, but the outcome was ok (even if the Earth DOES get blown up). Our bunch of heroes always came through. HhGttG is a wonderful piece of fluff. While reading BILL, I was waiting for the silly train of events that would probably land him as eventually becoming the Emperor. Boy, was I ever wrong. We watch as Bill slowly loses his human characteristics on his road to becoming the ideal trooper in the war against the Chingers. Bill's final (in the book) confrontation with a Chinger left me feeling very bad since it foreshadows that the Chingers will ultimately loose the war, but I ended up liking their society (from what little we see of it) more than human society. I'm not much of a literature expert but I'd say that Bill, the Galactic Hero is a satire on war. And it works shockingly well. The last chapter is the "nail in the coffin" and at "the end" I was stunned and quite a bit disgusted at Mr. Harrison for what he did to his character. It inspired me to write this article to tell people that this book may use the tools of HhGttG but the direction BILL goes is very, very different. I'd also say that this is Harrison's best novel. Dwight Bartholomew UUCP: pur-ee!pur-phy!galileo!dub purdue!pur-phy!galileo!dub ARPA: dub@newton.physics.purdue.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 08:46:20 PST From: dennis@cod.nosc.mil (Dennis Cottel) Subject: MISSION EARTH AN ALIEN AFFAIR, Volume 4 of MISSION EARTH by L. Ron Hubbard I got this book as a holiday party favor, and so this is the first volume of the series that I have read. It will also be the last. I've seen this "dekalogy" described as having "high humor, fast-paced drama, and social satire." I found it unfunny and aimless. I seem to remember having seen these books on some kind of "top sellers" list. I can understand getting stuck with the first one, but who's still buying them after six? My copy will be donated to the city library. Dennis Cottel Naval Ocean Systems Center San Diego, CA 92152 (619) 225-2406 dennis@NOSC.MIL sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 87 04:02:03 GMT From: alberta!bjorn@rutgers.edu (Bjorn R. Bjornsson) Subject: Re: MISSION EARTH dennis@cod.nosc.mil writes: > AN ALIEN AFFAIR, Volume 4 of MISSION EARTH by L. Ron Hubbard I got > this book as a holiday party favor, and so this is the first > volume of the series that I have read. It will also be the last. > I've seen this "dekalogy" described as having "high humor, > fast-paced drama, and social satire." I found it unfunny and > aimless. You could not possibly have picked a worse starting point for reading this series. I agree mostly with your assessment of the fourth volume, for as I have stated in this group previously "An Alien Affair" was a major bummer. I even went so far as to wonder whether the book had been written by Hubbard at all. Fortunately things do get better. Having read the first 6 volumes I'm hungry for more and would recommend the series to anyone that doesn't take himself too seriously. Volume 2 stands out as the best so far, and volume 4 is a waste of time except for providing a bit of continuity (B-). Bjorn R. Bjornsson alberta!bjorn ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 23:35:57 GMT From: loral!ian@rutgers.edu (Ian Kaplan) Subject: "Footfall" and Survivalists A question regarding Jerry Pournelle and "Footfall" (by Niven and Pournelle): In Footfall there were some characters who were involved in a Survivalist group (the Enclave). As far as I can tell the Enclave itself is tangential to the story. If the Enclave had been entirely excised the book would have been changed in little but length (a welcome change in this case). It has been rumored that Pournelle is involved with Survivalists. Do any of you know if this is true? The unnecessary inclusion of the Enclave could be ascribed to Pournelle's practice of promoting himself and his interests (for example, his son Alex and the programming language of the month). Another example of this might be a reference in Footfall to a "George Pournelle" of the San Diego Zoo (an employee, not an inmate). Ian Kaplan (619) 560-5888 x4812 USENET: {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!loral!ian ARPA: sdcc6!loral!ian@UCSD USPS: 8401 Aero Dr. San Diego, CA 92123 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 87 06:10:51 GMT From: percival!leonard@rutgers.edu (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: "Footfall" and Survivalists ian@loral.UUCP (Ian Kaplan) writes: >In Footfall there were some characters who were involved in a >Survivalist group (the Enclave). As far as I can tell the Enclave >itself is tangential to the story. If the Enclave had been >entirely excised the book would have been changed little... I'd call killing most of the people who took shelter there more than a 'little' change! >Another example of this might be a reference in Footfall to a >"George Pournelle" of the San Diego Zoo (an employee, not an >inmate). Actually Jerry *is* in the story (Wade Curtis was a pen name he used at one time). This makes it clear that another of the writers is Niven. And of course Heinlein and a few others are obvious... Pournelle has never made any secret of being in favor of both Civil Defense and of *rational* survivalism (as opposed to the idiots out in the back country with their arsenals) (funny, they've got lots of ammo, but no seeds?) Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 14:00:32 GMT From: lindsay@cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk (Lindsay F. Marshall) Subject: Equal Rites By Terry Pratchett Let me recommend this book to anyone who is sick of the overblown pomposity of the fantasymongers. It is very funny and very well written. You should also read the two previous books in the series ("The Colour of Magic" and "The Light Fantastic"). Fantasy addicts will probably like them too...... Lindsay F. Marshall Computing Lab., U of Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK JANET: lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot ARPA: lindsay%cheviot.newcastle@ucl-cs UUCP: !ukc!cheviot!lindsay PHONE: +44-91-2329233 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 11:12:20 GMT From: warwick!rolf@rutgers.edu (Rolf Howarth) Subject: Re: Equal Rites By Terry Pratchett lindsay@cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk (Lindsay F. Marshall) writes: >Let me recommend this book to anyone who is sick of the overblown >pomposity of the fantasymongers. It is very funny and very well >written. You should also read the two previous books in the series >("The Colour of Magic" and "The Light Fantastic"). Fantasy addicts >will probably like them too...... Let me second that. The sense of humour is very similar to the Hitchhiker's Guide, but in a fantasy setting. If you like Douglas Adams you'll love this. The heroes are a failed wizard named Rincewind, an in-sewer-ance salesman turned tourist called Twoflower, and his sapient Luggage. I haven't read the third book (Equal Rites) yet (I can't afford the hardback price...) but if it's only half as good as the other two I'm sure I shall greatly enjoy reading it. Rolf Dept. of Computer Science Warwick University, Coventry CV4 7AL England JANET: rolf@uk.ac.warwick.flame UUCP: {seismo,mcvax}!ukc!warwick!rolf Tel: +44 203 523523 ext 2485 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 08:56:25 PST From: dennis@cod.nosc.mil (Dennis Cottel) Subject: HUMAN ERROR HUMAN ERROR by Paul Preuss This book might fit into the recent SFL compilation of stories with sentient computer themes. It concerns a Bay Area "Protein Valley" computer company under pressure to design a successful follow-on to their biological-based PC. The approach of the two super-designers is to go with a genetically-engineered protein capable of self-replicating and learning. However, the story soon takes an unexpected direction. I enjoyed it. Dennis Cottel Naval Ocean Systems Center San Diego, CA 92152 (619) 225-2406 dennis@NOSC.MIL sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 23:15:29 GMT From: ut-ngp!tmca@rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott) Subject: The Adolescence of P1 - MAJOR SPOILERS! ***MAJOR SPOILERS HEREIN - DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU!*** I have just finished reading the Adolescence of P-1, and a most impressive book it is too; though obviously not written last week, its portrayal of a machine intelligence was quite believable, to me, at least. It reminded me, in terms of its unputdownableness, of much of Crichton's work (see, eg, Congo), but was perhaps a little simplistic in its treatment of the military types (but then, maybe admirals are really as stupid as that, who am I to know?) and characterisation was a bit flat. On finishing the story, I was a little miffed that P-1 got knobbled for a while, until I remembered how bored I was with stories with predictable endings that pander exactly to the expectations of the morass (Do I here three cheers for the baddies?). However, to the point: in the blurb on the back of my copy it says something to the effect of ' the final readout is the most chilling...' but in the book itself the "final readout" is given when Linda returns to Waterloo and types 'P1' at the terminal which then replies: OOLCAY ITAY Now, am I the victim of a hoax intended to make me ask stupid questions like this or is this actually supposed to mean something? (Ignoring the AY's you can get COOL IT out of this, so one would assume that a somewhat less powerful P1 still exists in the machine...) Anybody got any ideas? Tim ------------------------------ From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: The Adolescence of P1 - MAJOR SPOILERS! Date: 21 Mar 87 06:18:32 GMT tmca@ut-ngp.UUCP (Tim Abbott) writes: > OOLCAY ITAY > Now, am I the victim of a hoax intended to make me ask stupid >questions like this or is this actually supposed to mean something? >(Ignoring the AY's you can get COOL IT out of this > > Anybody got any ideas? I have not read the book, but I *do* know that "OOLCAY ITAY" is standard Pig-Latin for "COOL IT." Pig-Latin words are formed from regular English words by first moving the first consonant sound of a word (if it begins with one) to the end and then appending "ay." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 87 23:48:15 pst From: ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Hildum) Subject: James H. Schmitz Much of James Schmitz's work appears in Analog. The first that I know of appears in the last of the 8.5 by 11 inch format Analog. Various stories about Telzey and Trigger can be found there. I would love a complete listing of the publication dates - there is one story that I read once and have not found again... Eric Hildum P.S. You will need to find a rather extensive collection of Analog to find the old format stuff... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 24 Mar 87 1317-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #106 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Mar 87 1317-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #106 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 24 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 106 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Time (14 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 09 Mar 1987 12:13 CST From: Subject: Time travel and energy The universe we live in is a 4-dimensional universe (Length, width, depth and time). You "waste" no energy if you travel from one time to another, only transfer it, as you do when you travel from point A to point B. The "system" includes the time "axis". Ed Lorden ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 87 13:46:30 EST From: ST701135%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: time travel Reading some of the dialog about time travel that has recently been posted on this net inspired me to post this in return: * TIME TRAVEL IS AN ABSURD NOTION * 'Travel' (i.e. motion) in a 4-d continuum one dimension of which is time is defined by writing the space coordinates as functions of time and taking the derivative of each coordinate with respect to time. As anyone who has taken calculus knows, the derivative of any coordinate with respect to itself is a constant, namely 1. Therefore, the notion of 'travel through time' other than the constant forward progress which we all experience is absurd. For this to be possible, you would have to have some sort of 'meta-time' and define time travel as the derivative of 'time' with respect to 'meta-time'. Which still brings up the fact that you can't travel through 'meta-time' without defining a 'meta-meta-time', ad infinitum. In short, the whole idea of time travel is an absurd notion, and has received entirely too much attention in science fiction. Michael McClennen ST701135 at BROWNVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 87 02:58:10 GMT From: maddox@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Carl Greenberg (guest)) Subject: Re: Time travel and energy myers@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Bob Myers) writes: >Energy conservation means the energy is always equal at every time >along the time axis (for whatever your frame of reference is). >That's ALL it means. Taking energy from one time and putting it in >another violates energy conservation. Here's an idea: perhaps the amount of energy in the 4-D universe, start to finish, is a constant. Same with matter. This would allow for matter and energy appearing- but they would have to disappear later. Or if they disappeared for a while, they would have to reappear sometime. I know of conservation of energy and matter, but suppose the Universe merely insists on the AVERAGE of the energy to be some specific, rather than remaining constant at all frames of time. OK, folks, poke some holes in it. Carl Greenberg ARPA: maddox@ernie.berkeley.edu UUCP: ...ucbvax!ucbernie!maddox ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 02:39:36 GMT From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers) Subject: Re: Time travel and energy maddox@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Carl Greenberg (guest)) writes: >Here's an idea: perhaps the amount of energy in the 4-D universe, >start to finish, is a constant. Same with matter. This would >allow for matter and energy appearing- but they would have to >disappear later. Or if they disappeared for a while, they would >have to reappear sometime. I knowv of conservation of energy and >matter, but suppose the Universe merely insists on the AVERAGE of >the energy to be some specific, rather than remaining constant at >all frames of time. OK, folks, poke some holes in it. OK, here come the holes.... Actually, of course, energy conservation only holds within the limits of the Uncertainty Principle. But those are pretty tight Energy/Time limits. I think it's (delta Energy) (delta Time) = hbar = Planck's Constant/2pi (correct me if that's wrong, someone) and that's about right, anyway. But those are the limits you've got to work with. Moving an object in time violates energy conservation unless you remove/create an equal amount of energy, somehow, in the appropriate time frames. Bob Myers myers@tybalt.caltech.edu seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 08:02:57 GMT From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers) Subject: Re: Time travel and energy EDPX026@ECNCDC.BITNET writes: >The universe we live in is a 4-dimensional universe (Length, width, >depth and time). You "waste" no energy if you travel from one time >to another, only transfer it, as you do when you travel from point >A to point B. The "system" includes the time "axis". Um, yeah, we live in a 4-d (at least) universe, but that's not how energy is conserved. It's meaningless to speak of energy being conserved in your 4-d version. Energy conservation means the energy is always equal at every time along the time axis (for whatever your frame of reference is). That's ALL it means. Taking energy from one time and putting it in another violates energy conservation. Now, if you can show that there is some 4-d analogue of energy that just has to be conserved throughout the 4-d system, and that "normal" energy is just a special case of this, I would suggest you publish. But that's not what everyone else means by energy conservation. Bob Myers myers@tybalt.caltech.edu seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 04:57:13 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: time travel Boy, did Michael lead with his chin here... ST701135@BROWNVM.BITNET writes: >* TIME TRAVEL IS AN ABSURD NOTION * >'Travel' (i.e. motion) in a 4-d continuum one dimension of which is >time is defined by writing the space coordinates as functions of >time and taking the derivative of each coordinate with respect to >time. As anyone who has taken calculus knows, the derivative of >any coordinate with respect to itself is a constant, namely 1. >Therefore, the notion of 'travel through time' other than the >constant forward progress which we all experience is absurd. For >this to be possible, you would have to have some sort of >'meta-time' and define time travel as the derivative of 'time' with >respect to 'meta-time'. Um, your argument is self-defeating, Michael... The obvious question is, why can't we just choose another axis to differentiate along? We have this four-dimensional function on four orthogonal axes (X, Y, Z, T). We differentiate by X, Y, or Z instead of by T, and poof, no problem. We would therefore be traveling through time in a certain amount of space, rather than traveling through space in a certain amount of time. I don't know if this corresponds to the popular idea of time travel, but mathematically any variable is as good as any other, "as anyone who has taken calculus knows." Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 09:03:20 GMT From: mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu (Kevin J. Mayville) Subject: Re: time travel ST701135@BROWNVM.BITNET writes: >* TIME TRAVEL IS AN ABSURD NOTION * > >'Travel' (i.e. motion) in a 4-d continuum one dimension of which is >time is defined by writing the space coordinates as functions of >time and taking the derivative of each coordinate with respect to >time. This is the definition of velocity, i.e. how fast are you moving and in what direction. There is no intrinsic function of time in the x,y, and z coordinates themselves, which is what you seem to be claiming. > As anyone who has taken calculus knows, the derivative of any >coordinate with respect to itself is a constant, namely 1. >Therefore, the notion of 'travel through time' other than the >constant forward progress which we all experience is absurd. Why do you assume time travel needs to have a velocity? Any object motionless in space can have zero velocity. You appear to be suffering from knowing a little, which is too much. What you are saying is absurd gibberish. > For this to be possible, you would have to have some sort of >'meta-time' and define time travel as the derivative of 'time' with >respect to 'meta-time'. Which still brings up the fact that you >can't travel through 'meta-time' without defining a >'meta-meta-time', ad infinitum. The reason velocity is defined the way it is is because time is viewed to be unrelated to distance. If, however, it is not, velocity would need to be a measure of spatial displacement AND temporal displacement. >In short, the whole idea of time travel is an absurd notion, and >has received entirely too much attention in science fiction. Then why do you read SF? Seems like an absurd notion to me! Kevin mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 09:12:44 GMT From: mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu (Kevin J. Mayville) Subject: Re: Time travel and energy myers@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Bob Myers) writes: >Um, yeah, we live in a 4-d (at least) universe, but that's not how >energy is conserved. It's meaningless to speak of energy being >conserved in your 4-d version. Energy conservation means the energy >is always equal at every time along the time axis (for whatever >your frame of reference is). That's ALL it means. It does not! Energy conservation means that in a CLOSED system, energy is constant. If travel in time is possible, then the system is hardly closed if you consider one point in time. If time travel is assumed possible, all that energy conservation is that the total energy of the universe over all time remains constant. Kevin mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 00:35:28 GMT From: illusion!marcus@rutgers.edu (Marcus Hall) Subject: Re: time travel ST701135@BROWNVM.BITNET writes: >* TIME TRAVEL IS AN ABSURD NOTION * > >'Travel' (i.e. motion) in a 4-d continuum one dimension of which is >time .... Why do you expect that time is a `normal' 4th dimension? It is many times convenient to represent things as if time were a spacial dimension, but that doesn't mean that it is! Consider a two dimensional world. Time still exists in two dimensions, right? Flatlanders would construct models in which it was convenient for time to be represented as a meta-dimension, their third dimension. Yet, from our three dimensional world we can `see' the third dimension and know that it isn't time. It seems that all worlds must have time outside of the `normal' meaning of dimension. You can't strip time away like you can any of the other dimensions and still have a meaningful universe. Actually, I guess it is possible (from a mathematical standpoint at least) to view any axis as time and assume that whatever world you chose (or at least your viewpoint of it) moved along at a constant rate. No, I guess that it would only be important that it be percieved as constant from inside the world. At any rate, constructing a model that treats ordinary time as a spacial dimension without adjusting for the change in viewpoint is bound to lead to contradictions. marcus hall ihnp4!illusion!marcus ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 02:40:29 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: time travel sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: >We would therefore be traveling through time in a certain amount of >space, rather than traveling through space in a certain amount of >time. > >I don't know if this corresponds to the popular idea of time >travel, but mathematically any variable is as good as any other, >"as anyone who has taken calculus knows." Heinlein, twice. TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE and (shudder!) in an expanded form in NUMBER OF THE BEAST (they swapped the meaning of the axes, duration was along X, Y, or Z and T became a spatial variable). Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 13:40:06 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: Time travel and energy Correct me if I'm wrong but surely if time is a fourth spatial coordinate then what do frames of time have to do with it? (What *IS* a frame of time?) The law of conservation of energy and matter involves time passing during which the total energy of the system remains constant, but from a 5D (say) view how does time pass? For that matter what does a being who perceives time as just another spatial coordinate use instead of time. If this isn't to irrelevant to this group and discussion (I don't get net.comics) why hasn't John from the Wathchmen gone mad yet? I would in his position! Piers Cawley ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 09:05:00 GMT From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers) Subject: Re: Time travel and energy pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes: > Correct me if I'm wrong but surely if time is a fourth spatial >coordinate then what do frames of time have to do with it? (What >*IS* a frame of time?) Time is not a spatial coordinate. It can be represented as a coordinate, but it has imaginary magnitude. As in sqrt(-1) imaginary. This makes it very different from ordinary (real) spatial coordinates. Time frame: all I mean is using the total energy of the system at any given moment. I know, this is sort of hard to define given a large system, but I don't think that's very important to worry about here (trying to keep things simple). Bob Myers myers@tybalt.caltech.edu seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 21:43:08 GMT From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers) Subject: Re: Time travel and energy myers@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Bob Myers) writes: >Time is not a spatial coordinate. It can be represented as a >coordinate, but it has imaginary magnitude. As in sqrt(-1) >imaginary. This makes it very different from ordinary (real) >spatial coordinates. Well, someone better versed in physics than I has corrected me slightly. Don't think of time as an imaginary spatial coordinate. (That's an older concept.) It's something else entirely, and I have been referred to Misner, Thorne and Wheeler Box 2.1 for a better answer (which I don't have a copy of, so you can look it up yourself if you want to know.) I think the title is Gravitation, if memory serves me well. Bob Myers myers@tybalt.caltech.edu seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 03:38:45 GMT From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers) Subject: Re: Time travel and energy myers@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Bob Myers) writes: >>Time is not a spatial coordinate. It can be represented as a >>coordinate, but it has imaginary magnitude. As in sqrt(-1) >>imaginary. This makes it very different from ordinary (real) >>spatial coordinates. > >Well, someone better versed in physics than I has corrected me >slightly. Don't think of time as an imaginary spatial coordinate. >(That's an older concept.) It's something else entirely, and I have >been referred to Misner, Thorne and Wheeler Box 2.1 for a better >answer (which I don't have a copy of, so you can look it up >yourself if you want to know.) I think the title is Gravitation, >if memory serves me well. All right, so I looked it up anyway. The basic problem with viewing time as an imaginary coordinate is that the distance is zero between two points separated by a trajectory moving at the speed of light. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense, so anyway, time is not a spatial coordinate. Bob Myers myers@tybalt.caltech.edu seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 25 Mar 87 0935-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #107 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Mar 87 0935-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #107 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 25 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 107 Today's Topics: Books - McCaffrey (14 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Mar 87 14:06:56 GMT From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Pern Money dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: >P.S. About the Pern books: did anyone notice that it wasn't until >somewhere in the Harperhall (sub)trilogy that money was even >mentioned. The first two books (and maybe one of the Harperhall >books) did not mention money at all. The first Harper book (Dragonsong if memory serves) didn't mention money. >I was kind of disappointed when money did appear. After all, there >are many books which don't mention religion, how many don't mention >money? I was a little put out but it seemed that marks were used solely at gathers as an aid to barter, after all who wants to go around paying in fractions of a herd-beast for his bubbly pies :-) Other than at gathers the system seemed to be almost a socialist/communist (I'm not sure of the distinction, pick your favourite ) set-up, everybody mucked in together and received provisions etc. according to their needs. Trade between halls was simply barter (in Dragonsong) Mebolly is not to chuffed by the fact that the hold is having difficulty getting hold of meat because no-one wants their fish. Of course the Weyrs received tithes in recognition of what they had done for Pern during threadfall and the fact was that the Weyrs were situated so as to make agriculture a bit of a problem. Anybody who disagrees with this please feel free to pick holes in it on the net. I won't be insulted and I *DO* read flames, it's mighty cold in this terminal room :-) Piers Cawley ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 17:25:57 GMT From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu Subject: Re: Pern (dragons) friedman@uiucdcsb.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >The arguments that McCaffrey's dragons shouldn't be able to fly >because they are too big for their wings ignore something basic: >she never tells us how big they are, nor how much their wingspread >is.... As much as I agree with all of your observations, MORETA provides dimensions fo dragons (well, lengths anyway). Green: 18-24 meters Blue: 25-30 meters Brown: 30-40 meters Bronze: 40-45 meters Gold: 45-50 meters As far as I can figure, Ruth would be in the 12-16 meter range. (I'm not all that sure.) cs2633ba@izar ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 87 00:56:46 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Pern pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes: > (horrible naming system they've got there, I still haven't worked >out the rules for naming children yet) Yes, it is, isn't it? Male children of dragonriders (the only people she deals with) are named with a combination of their parents' names, father's first, chosen in such a way that when they become dragonriders the first vowel can be removed without making the name unpronounceable. Thus F'lar and Lessa's son was named Felessan. When he gets a dragon, he will be F'lessan. Thus the initial "F" is sort of a patronymic. (The short story "The Littlest Dragonrider" contradicted this slightly by having the main character have an already-contracted name even though he was not yet a dragon-rider, but the trilogies hold to this pattern.) Female children are apparently just named anything. Of course, this raises a real problem. What do a couple call their second son? There aren't very many ways to combine names as simple as most Pernese names are... Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 87 21:34:20 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Pern anomaly kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) writes: >[ ... ] there is what I would consider to be a rather large hole in >the culture which has been defined on Pern. There seems to be no >religious belief of any kind, unless you count a semi-religious >veneration of dragon riders. > > Does anyone have an explanation to offer for this? I find >the notion of an entire culture operating without any sort of >religion unlikely, particularly in a group which has been reduced >to an essentially feudal society. Comments? Yes, this bothered me too, when I thought about it. (In all honesty to McCaffrey, it didn't occur to me until the third time through the books.) I think I can stomach the idea of a semi-feudal culture without religion, particularly since the Pernese are a lost colony and used to have mega-technology, which as anyone in our society knows often correlates with little organized religion. (Flames to net.religion.fundamentalists, please.) But it is unlikely, and the random oaths of "By the First Egg!" only make it worse, by making it clear that there is something missing. Has anyone on the net heard any comment by McCaffrey about this? Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 4 Mar 87 20:50:54 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Pern anomaly >...a rather large hole in the culture which has been defined on >Pern. There seems to be no religious belief of any kind... Little as I believe it, I'd find it aesthetically satisfying to apply the explanation from Hogan's book "Giant's Star". That is, that such beliefs do not arise naturally in nonscientific societies, but are the results of a conspiracy to give people a muddled view of the universe. In other words, people whose ancestors were not believers would not tend to become believers. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 20:53:56 GMT From: jhunix!ins_avrd@rutgers.edu (The Littlest Orc) Subject: Re: Re: Pern (minor spoilers) beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes: >Non-Weyr bred children of either sex seemed to be named just >anything too. Jaxom is an example again. Jaxom is the son of Gemma and Lord Fax, is he not? His name is therefore another variation of combining his parents'... vicka ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 04:31:05 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) Subject: Re: Pern Money pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes: > I was a little put out but it seemed that marks were used solely >at gathers as an aid to barter, after all who wants to go around >paying in fractions of a herd-beast for his bubbly pies :-) Other >than at gathers the system seemed There was one time in "The White Dragon" where gambling was going on using marks. >to be almost a socialist/communist (I'm not sure of the >distinction, pick your favourite ) set-up, everybody mucked in >together and received provisions etc. according to their needs. >Trade between halls was simply barter. . . The closest parallel I can come up with to the economic situation on Pern is feudal. This was intentional, I'm sure. One of the causes of feudalism in the European Middle Ages was intermittant raids by foreign barbarians. The Thread on Pern served the same function. The main problem I have with money on Pern is that I can't figure out who issues it. Traditionally, money is issued by bankers or some kind of government. There don't seem to be any bankers on Pern (or lawyers either, (maybe Pernese are communists... no lawyers -- that's unAmerican :-) ) and the various Holders don't seem to be in the business of minting money. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 23:52:52 GMT From: netxcom!ewiles@rutgers.edu (Edwin Wiles) Subject: Re: Pern Money dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: >The main problem I have with money on Pern is that I can't figure >out who issues it. Traditionally, money is issued by bankers or >some kind of government. There don't seem to be any bankers on >Pern (or lawyers either, (maybe Pernese are communists... no >lawyers -- that's unAmerican :-) ) and the various Holders don't >seem to be in the business of minting money. The Holders don't mint money, the Crafthalls do. That's why you hear thinks like "2/32nds, and Smithcraft at that!" (Paraphrased, but you get the idea.) Apparently, each Crafthall that produces goods for sale mint money. How they decide how much to mint, and what each item is worth, I've no idea. I say that only Crafthalls that produce goods for sale mint money since the Harper Hall does not appear to do so. I'm not sure about this, but you never hear direct mention of "Harpercraft" marks. So I 'assume' that Crafthalls that produce goods for sale produce marks to purchase those goods with. And set values in terms of those marks upon the goods they produce. The really funky question is: How do they equate the purchasing power of the various 'brands' of marks to each other? After only short thought, I believe that the Lord Holder would keep track of what the ratio between things bartered was, and use that as a rough measure of exchange rates. Thus: If one runnerbeast (valued at 10 Herdcraft Marks) was orignally equated to one gold ring (valued at 10 Smithcraft Marks). And at a later point, it took two runnerbeasts to match one gold ring, the Herdcraft Marks would be trading at 2 for 1 to Smithcraft Marks. Of course, I could be full of it too.... :-) Edwin Wiles Net Express, Inc. 1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300 Vienna, VA 22180 seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 05:10:50 GMT From: sdiris1!res@rutgers.edu (Skip Sanders) Subject: Re: Pern Money There is a note on the question of who "makes" the marks in dragonsinger... When Piemur works his "scam" in selling musical instruments, he mentions that the marks are "Smithcraft at that..." I interpret this to mean that the marks are issued by the crafthalls, and are based on a merchandise value to the issuing hall... that is, smith marks are guaranteed to buy a certain amount of smith products... they are then items of barter in general, with marks from some crafts perhaps of more value than others, depending on what hall makes the most wanted items... Skip Sanders sdcsvax!jack!man!sdiris1!res Phone : 619-273-8725 (evenings) ------------------------------ Date: Wed 18 Mar 87 09:19:19-PST From: Dave Combs Subject: Lengths of turns and naming children on Pern In a recent issue, Piers Cawley(pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk) writes: >Having read all the Pern books it seems to me that a turn on Pern >is a hell of a lot shorter than an Earth year. I've nothing >concrete to go on but after about 20 turns people like F'lar >(horrible naming system they've got there, I still haven't worked >out the rules for naming children yet) and Lessa have hardly aged, >the only person showing signs of age is Robinton with his heart >seizure. Yet at the same time Jaxom grows up remarkably quickly. >Does this mean that people live longer and thus have a longer >period of peak ability, does it mean that a turn is not as long as >an earth year or does it just mean that McCaffrey didn't think it >through properly :-) As far as I can tell, (I haven't re-read the books in a couple of years), turns on Pern seem roughly the same length as Terran years. Remember, at the beginning of the 1st book F'lar was probably in his early 20's, and it seems later that he's somewhere in his 40's - not "aged" yet, but certainly not as young as he used to be. Regarding the naming scheme, it is mentioned in one of the books that the child's name is shortened when he becomes a dragonrider. I'll try and find the passage when I get a chance. Cheers, Dave ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 18:44:29 GMT From: h.cc.purdue.edu!ahh@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Pern Money dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: >The main problem I have with money on Pern is that I can't figure >out who issues it. Traditionally, money is issued by bankers or >some kind of government. There don't seem to be any bankers on >Pern (or lawyers either, (maybe Pernese are communists... no >lawyers -- that's unAmerican :-) ) Maybe, but I wouldn't mind giving it a try. :-) >and the various Holders don't seem to be in the business of minting >money. I recall (my memory is noted for its volatility, so don't hold me to it) a passage (probably in one of the Harper Hall books) about an apprentice using marks that had Smithcraft colors on it. Also, I believe that the marks Menolly and Piemur used were Harper blue. I guess this means that the crafthalls issue the marks, and guarantee their worth with their own products, making marks a hard currency of sorts. You can barter for Smithcraft products, or you can just buy them with the Smith's own marks (possibly you can buy with other hall's marks, but this might come under the heading of barter). Brent Woods 500 Russell St., Apt. 19 West Lafayette, IN 47906 USENET:{seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc.purdue.edu!ahh BITNET:PODUM@PURCCVM PHONE: (317) 743-6445 ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 21:32:40 GMT From: ism780c!tim@rutgers.edu (Tim Smith) Subject: Re: Pern sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >(The short story "The Littlest Dragonrider" contradicted this >slightly by having the main character have an already-contracted >name even though he was not yet a dragon-rider, but the trilogies >hold to this pattern.) Huh? What were you smoking when you read "The Littlest Dragonrider"? He is not K'van until he impresses the dragon. Tim Smith uucp: sdcrdcf!ism780!tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 87 13:43:53 CST From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: Pern (dragons) and Re: fantasy Cc: Dani Zweig Dani Zweig (haste#@andrew.cmu.edu) writes: > OK, it's time someone gave away the secret.... [[ lots of > semi-reasonable stuff ommitted ]] ....For this reason, the Red > Star is surrounded by a cloud of spores at a considerable distance > out. Pern passes near enough to this cloud to draw the spores > away from the Red Star. Any other questions? Yes. First, let me reiterate some facts: Thread attacks come every few days (three at the beginning of a "pass" and more frequently towards the middle). The time that the Red Star is in a position to cause the threads spans 50 "turns". Now I assume that a "turn" is a Pernese year, right? Well, everyone seems to assume that the Red Star is in an eccentric (comet-like) orbit around Pern's Sun (Rukbat?). If this is the case, then it must have an orbital period of 250 turns, according to the facts in the book (200 turns, usually, between attacks, attacks last for 50 turns). So why aren't the threads' attacks seasonal during the 50 turns? If the Red Star is orbiting so slowly, then the cloud should only intersect with Pern in one section of Pern's orbit. Is the cloud big enough to encompass all of Pern's orbit? Wouldn't that be on the order of 180 million miles across? Or do the spores get "stuck" in the upper atmosphere and rain down when they please? That doesn't sound right either, since they came down in a predictable pattern (a pattern that was altered by other planets' gravitational influence). William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University phil@Rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 19:19:48 GMT From: charon!cs1551bb@rutgers.edu (Brian Bowers) Subject: Re: Pern Money Pern money is issued by the crafthalls. The value of such "marks" would be set at the Gathers, through barter. Thus any reference to "...and smithcraft at that..." would simply show that smithcraft marks were stronger at that time, probably due to scarcity. (See, the smart craftmaster would severely limit the number of marks issued from his craft, to push their value up with regard to other marks :^) Of course, the harpers would be imminently capable of discovering which marks are of the most value at any given time, through the network of journeymen harpers. Given that, there is ample reason to think that Piemur would know that smithcraft marks were high in value (especially considering his network of connections). If I'm wrong in this, please let me know. Brian Bowers cs1551bb@charon.unm.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 25 Mar 87 0953-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #108 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Mar 87 0953-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #108 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 25 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 108 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Terminology (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 09:10 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: SCI-FI vs. S.F. Cc: reed!tim@rutgers.edu (T. Russell Flanagan) To Russell Flanagan: I know I'm a newcomer to Star Trek fandom, having only been involved in it since 1974, but one of the first things the older fans instructed me on when I got into it, was the difference between a "Trekkie" and a "Trekker." And even reading the older fanzines, I don't recall seeing fans refer to themselves as "Trekkies" although I see it in news articles from the beginning on. When, in your recollection, was "Trekker" introduced? Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 20:23:08 GMT From: cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) Subject: Fanspeak: is there a glossary? OK, being only on the periphery of fandom (sort of the fannish equivalent of a "heathen", I guess :-)), I'm familiar with a few of the terms, but only a few (e.g., I know "fen" and "tanstaafl" but didn't realize "ghod" was of fannish origin). Is there a Great Communicator (you may take this as you wish) out there willing to spill the beans to a semi-mundane? Can someone post a list of fannish terms? Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!rutgers!elbereth!cje ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 15:13:29 EST From: "Wm. L. Ranck" Subject: Re: SF vs Sci-Fi etc. Personally I like the term Speculative Fiction with the abbreviation to SF. This covers the whole blue-magenta-red spectrum and you can avoid arguing over things like FTL drive being 'science fiction' or 'fantasy'. Just now I'm inclined to view FTL as fantasy, but my view might change, but in any case it's still SF. Please, no long arguments about why FTL drives aren't fantasy, unless you got the genuine article in your garage it's not that important. I don't really mind if you want to call me a 'trekkie' or a 'trekker' just don't call me a 'fan'. The term fan, to me conjures up visions of some slobbering twit with no critical sense at all. Bill Ranck BITNET: RANCK@VTVM1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 16:01 CDT From: Gleep? <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET> Subject: terminology: sci-fi/sf, trekker/trekkie > Believe it or not, there actually *are* accepted ways of using >abbreviations, both in speech and writing, which are not limited to >the realm of science fiction (SF). ... > I *do*, however, dislike the Sci-Fi term, for reasons previously >explained by people like Chuq. Joel is quite right. Accepted form would be to refer in speech to "science fiction", and in writing, if an abbreviation is desired, to "SF" (so chosen because it's shorter than "sci-fi", and is a standard form). "Sci-fi" is such an unattractive term by now, with all of its pejorative connotations. >Excuse me Russell, but many of us call ourselves Trekkers to >distinguish ourselves from Star Trek groupies (Trekkies). I don't feel like I fall into either class. I can understand the desire to disassociate oneself from "Star Trek groupies". I've always called myself a "Trekkie" (when I feel the need for self-labeling, which isn't often). The main distinction I've always seen between "Trekkies" and "Trekkers" is that "Trekkers" are more interested in the technological aspects of the Star Trek system. I don't care a whit for Nichelle Nichol's astrological sign (I don't even care about my own), or about William Shatner's high school grades. I do care about why the characters in the show behave as they do. If James Kirk got an A in French in the ninth grade, and that perhaps sparked an interest in something which made him what he "is" today, then I'd like to know about it. I can't say that I watch the cartoons, but I do read the fan books (that's not really a comment on the cartoons, I'd just rather read than watch TV). I've forgotten the reference (and of course I'm not at home, so I can't look it up), but the book about Spock, that had him going back in time to deal with the sehlat, and meet his younger self, was fascinating. We got a glimpse into what formed the character Spock. So, what distinctions do other people make between the fan groups? (By the way, you do realize that the "Star Trek groupies" will start calling themselves "Trekkers". I've never actually met a Star Trek groupie - do they really exist? Has anyone actually met one? I don't mean has a friend of a friend met one, I want to know if anyone has actually met and conversed with a real live ST groupie?) Eleanor evans%ngstl1@ti-eg.csnet evans%ngstl1%ti-eg@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 22:30:23 GMT From: watdragon!hwarkentyne@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: abbreviations and jargon R.J. Rudden complained about posters who use unreferenced abbreviations and I agree with his complaint. I would also like to add that mysterious "fan" jargon does not help make articles comprehensible either. So please, try not to get carried away with the buzz-words and the abbreviations. Thanks, Ken Warkentyne ------------------------------ Date: Wed 18 Mar 87 18:10:08-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: "trufen"/"serfen"/etc. The sort of egotism that creates the subject terminology is the primary thing that is wrong with many SF cons AND leads to the public perception of SF people as a collection of glassy-eyed geeks. If you detest the concept of media fen, then you are just as guilty of all the prejudice, slander, and ignorance of many of the general public show toward SF fans. Instead of treating Trekkies as a lower form of life, try, GENTLY, to expose them to other forms of fandom. "Gee, if you like STAR TREK try reading *** -- I think you'll like it." Don't consider him/her/it a raging idiot because he/she/it can't recite the title of every book Asimov has ever written... You might just discover that some nice people happened to stop by your "sci-fi convention" because they liked STAR WARS, and because you took the trouble to be nice you have made some new friends...maybe even some new "serfen"... ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 21:00:40 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: fanspeak gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >>I do not take every excuse to jump on hapless mundanes and neo-fen >>for their well-meaning but ignorant use of the phrase "sci-fi". > What about people like me who sometimes use the term to annoy >people like you? Fine with me. It doesn't annoy me at all, though, so you may be disappointed... There should have been a :-) in the sentence quoted from me above; I do not consider such people "hapless" and "ignorant" in any kind of perjorative sense. (Plenty of people simply don't know that some of us prefer not to use the term "sci-fi"; they are ignorant of this fact, but that doesn't mean they're ignorant in the wider, more usual sense (== stupid)). Apologies if I was unclear. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!) UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 01:42:26 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: fanspeak cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) writes: >Is there a Great Communicator (you may take this as you wish) out >there willing to spill the beans to a semi-mundane? Can someone >post a list of fannish terms? Well, since I started this whole thing... I'm no Great Communicator (chirp bleep ooo-weee-ooo), nor do I know of any glossary (actually I think I'd prefer to pick it up as I run across it). I've learned most of the fanspeak I know from reading filksongs (yes, I will define this word, hang on a minute). Since I don't have a glossary, the best I can do is give you here such a filksong, written to play with the language. We used to sing this at filksings in my college club, and I would translate afterwards... A complete glossary follows the song. I have no sources for these definitions, I just picked them up here & there... Filksong: a song about or somehow related to science fiction, fantasy, fandom, etc. Often written to the tune of an existing song, but many original tunes exist as well. The word originated as a misprint for "folksong". To filk is to sing a filksong, or sometimes to write one. A filksing is a gathering for filksong singing; a filkbook (sometimes called a hymnal) is a songbook of filksongs. And now, the song. This was written by George Flyn, according to the filkbook of my old club. I don't know where they got it, and I do not know anything about the author. Fanserwacky to the tune of Greensleeves by George Flyn 'Twas fannish, and the Big-Name Fen Had locs and illos in each zine; All croggled were the faneds then, And the neos were green. "Beware the FIAWOL, my son, The ties that bind you to fanac; Beware the concom's lure, and shun The role of letterhack!" He set his beanie on his head, Long time sought he for egoboo, "For apathy surely cannot be The fannish thing to do!" And as in smoffish thought he stood An idea thrilled him to the core: "I'll fill a zine with feuds, and plunge All fandom into war!" He wrote it down, and round and round The mimeo went clitter-clack. And when they read what he had said, Two hundred locs came back. "And hast thuo pubbed the ish at last? Come to my con, my fannish boy! Goshwow! By Ghu! Corflu, corflu!" He filksang in his joy. 'Twas fannish, and the Big=name Fen Had locs and illos in each zine; All croggled were the faneds then, And the neos were green. The Glossary: fannish: you know, like us. Undefinable. fen: plural of "fan". Big-Name Fen: Often abbreviated "BNF", the big-name fen are the widely known fen, very active in fandom; the sort of people who win the Best Fanzine Hugo (see "zine" below) and get selected as delegates to other continents by the Trans- Atlantic and Down-Under Fan Funds. Don't know any myself... locs: Letters Of Comment illos: illustrations zine: short for "fanzine", short for "fan magazine". Publishing small (sometimes not-so-small) personal "zines" is a long-standing tradition in fandom. Such zines may contain anything from personal news to reviews to anything at all, really... In a lot of filksongs I have seen, publishing a zine is more or less equated with being a true, active fan. (Please don't flame me for this, I've never put one out myself and I had nothing to do with it!) There is an annual Hugo award for Best Fanzine. croggled: impressed, astounded. Probably related to "boggled". faned: fan editor. One who edits or puts out a fanzine. neo: someone new to science fiction and fandom. Usually "neo-fan". green: green jealous, you know. This one's not even fannish! FIAWOL: acronym for "Fandom Is A Way Of Life", a philosophy that some live by. Compare FIJAGDH, "Fandom Is Just A God-Damned Hobby". fanac: fan activity, fannish activity concom: convention committee. The people who organize and put on a convention. letterhack: Someone who continually writes letters to zines, both fanzines and prozines (professional magazines, like F&SF and Asimov's). Any rec.arts.comics people, think of T. M. Maple. beanie: For some reason, the propellor beanie is enshrined as the traditional headgear of the true fan. I don't know why. I belive that this image is several years out of date: say maybe thirty... I have seen people wearing them at conventions once or twice, though. egoboo: short for "ego boost". An ego boost is when someone whom everyone respects says something good about you, for example. smof: acronym for "Secret Master Of Fandom". I don't know exactly what a smof is; I guess it's too secret. feuds: Fandom, especially publishing fandom, is filled with feuds, or has often been in the past. (Again, I am not involved in fan publishing, and everything I say about it should be read with that in mind; my impressions may be mistaken.) A feud starts up when A says something that B doesn't like, and B replies (or storms off in a huff), you know. Like flame wars. I believe that in the very early days of fandom feuds sometimes split the community terribly, with people not speaking to each other for years. Try a good history of fandom for info; I know they exist but I've never read one... mimeo: It used to be that the true fan ("trufan") was identifiable by the bluish tinge of mimeo ink indelibly soaked into his hands. With the rise of personal computers, this image (and the line of the song) is becoming outdated, I suppose... pubbed: published ish: issue, of a fanzine Goshwow: one word. The traditional exclamation of the neo, upon first encountering science fiction and fandom. Ghu: along with Roscoe, a fannish god. I have no idea of their origin, and would really like to know where these names came from, if anyone out there can help me. corflu: correcting fluid. A necessity for anyone publishing something on a mimeo machine. Phew. There 'tis. Enjoy! Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!) UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 23:55:20 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Fannish jargon (was Re: Convention discussion) pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes: >genre, start to work out what these ridiculous terms mean they end >up getting changed, fans -> fen , trekky -> trekker , conference -> >con Which reminds me... I hate the term "fen". "Fan" was originally short for "fanatic". Though I go to cons (sorry, conferences and conventions :^)) and am involved in fan clubs and sf discussion groups, I dislike calling myself a fanatic of anything. Sometimes I do because the people I'm talking to are used to the terms... But if the plural of "fanatic" is "fanatics", the plural of the short form "fan" should be "fans". You're free to call yourselves what you like, but "fans" is the term I am happy with, and I resent the people that go around saying that "fen" is THE CORRECT TERM. Ugh. Hey. After all, these are all just short forms, to make discussing things amongst "those who know" a bit simpler. Many fans seem now to be using "fannish jargon" to excude others. I guess I'm just not interested in doing that. >We are adults aren't we if they start to insult us or look upon >science fiction with disdain why do we have to circle the wagons >and start to snipe back at them with our stupid, cliquey jargon. Exactly! (Bravo!) It's okay to have our own language if we feel we need it, but why does it have to be used as a nose to look down? > Just out of interest. If somebody came up to you and asked you why >you read sci-fi how would you respond. I like adventure. I like reading about possibilities that aren't covered by our history texts. I like characters that aren't buried in human tradition. There's so much ROOM out there, so much space to explore, and while I can understand the value in exploring what we can reach, I have chosen to do my exploring elsewhere. As to WHY I like these things... I don't know. Somewhere along the line I was taught to use my imagination to its fullest. And now I find that the worlds of SF, unlike most of the worlds of "mundane" fiction, has ROOM for my imagination. That won't stop me from reading elsewhere - but it creates a guideline I can follow, for entertainment and education. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 25 Mar 87 1008-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #109 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Mar 87 1008-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #109 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 25 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 109 Today's Topics: Books - McCaffrey (4 msgs) & Red Sonja (3 msgs) & Recommendations (3 msgs) & The Year in Review ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Mar 87 00:01:35 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Pern Money dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: >P.S. About the Pern books: did anyone notice that it wasn't until >somewhere in the Harperhall (sub)trilogy that money was even >mentioned. The first two books (and maybe one of the Harperhall >books) did not mention money at all. At the time the events of DRAGONFLIGHT occurred, the dragonriders didn't have much NEED of money (though it was getting close). They got most of what they needed from the tithes the Holders owed them for their protection. So naturally money wouldn't need to be mentioned in those first three books, which were mostly about Dragonriders and the Weyrs. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 87 00:37:23 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Lengths of turns (was and naming children on Pern) COMBS@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU writes: >As far as I can tell, (I haven't re-read the books in a couple of >years), turns on Pern seem roughly the same length as Terran years. >Remember, at the beginning of the 1st book F'lar was probably in >his early 20's, and it seems later that he's somewhere in his 40's >- not "aged" yet, but certainly not as young as he used to be. I read in the FORT FACT PACK, published by Fort Weyr (a Pern club), that Pern years were LONGER than Earth years. In fact, I believe the sentence started with "We know that...", rather than "We're assuming that..." or anything else that vague. I don't have any idea where they got the information from, but they are affiliated with "Pern fandom at large". Perhaps the whole organization has been assuming this fact for some time. Anyway, if we assume that human medical technology was quite advanced by the time Pern was colonized, it seems possible that humans might live for a good length of time without becoming frail, as long as they don't die off from some Pern disease or something. The longer years would also explain why it seems that Jaxom ages quite fast (it would take him the same amount of time as one would expect it to here, but the time would be accounted for by a lower number...), but I tend to think that's just the "time passes" that occurred between books - I don't remember him growing up any quicker than I expected him to. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 22 March 1987, 13:00:09 EST From: Brent Hailpern Subject: Pern I believe that Jaxom's name is also a composition of his parents: Fax and Gemma - perhaps the `F' was not chosen because Fax was truly obnoxious. Brent Hailpern bth@ibm.com ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 87 18:14:35 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Pern: Lengths of turns The length of the year of an earthlike planet should be determined almost totally by the color of the sun. For any main-sequence star, the color pretty much determines mass, temperature and luminosity (well, actually vice versa) and hence the distance at which an earthlike planet gets the right amount of radiation. Distance and mass pretty much determine the length of the year. Specifically, if Pern's sun is *similar* in color to our own (there are some indications that it is and no indications that it's not. I don't remember--are we *told* that it's a type G star?) then Pern's year will be about the length of ours. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 07:03:20 GMT From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: RED SONJA m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM (M. Joseph Barone) writes: > It seems like you're only an REH Conan fan! Red Sonja NEVER >appears in any story with Conan written by Robert E. Howard. "Red >Nails" was with Valeria. Red Sonja stories by REH take place in >the 16th century and she is some type of mecenary and/or pirate ... I haven't got the message this is in response to yet. Anyway, I've read some Howard stuff, and don't recall any Red Sonya. He does have some female along on a pirate ship, but she is hardly the Red Sonya type. This story was collected in a book called _The She Devil_. I thought it was rather poor advertising, myself. The back of the book leads you to think that she is some rip-roaring female pirate. Instead, she's more or less booty. De Camp turned it into a Conan story without too much problem (speaking of which, i'd be a bit hesitant about calling de Camp a hack). david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 03:27:59 GMT From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: RED SONJA (the LAST word) >As I recall, in REH there was no character known as Red Sonja. This >was a creation by Roy Thomas, WHO IS NOT SOME COMIC BOOK WRITER >WITH A SILLY IMAGINATION, based on a character known as Red Sonya, >also by REH. Red Sonya was in stories that took place about the >16th Century in Russia, well past Conan's time. The female >character from the `Red Nails' story was eliminated and Red Sonja >was written in when Thomas adapted it for the comic book. I don't >know whether the rape scene happened to Red Sonya, because I have >never read any of her stories as yet. I am sitting typing this in with a copy of Red Sonja #1 (paperback) in front of me, with an introduction by Roy Thomas (the book is by David C. Smith and Richard L. Tierney). "Red Nails" and Valeria have NOTHING to do with Red Sonja. Red Sonya was in one story by Howard, "Shadow of the Vulture". This story was adapted as a Conan story for Conan #23 by Roy Thomas. The rape scene did not occur in the original. According to Thomas, "... from my favorite modern work of literature, William Butler Yeats' Cuchulain play 'On Baile's Strand,' I took the vow which Yeats indirectly attributes to the Celtic warrior-queen Aoife: 'He said a while ago that he heard Aoife boast that she'd never but the one lover, and he the only man that had overcome her in battle.' Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701@JHUVM INS_AKAA@JHUVMS INS_AKAA@JHUNIX ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 87 09:28:04 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Red Sonja From: hpfcdq!mazina (Daniel Mazina) > Being a rather large fan of Robert E. Howard I must say that NO > WHERE in the actual Conan books (the original ones, not the hack > writer versions) does this incredible story ever appear. Conan > meets Red Sonja and does follow her out of town in the beginning > of 'Red Nails' but this story of being raped and having to be > defeated in combat is completely unsupported. Lets not slander > REH's writing with some comic book writer's silly imagination. I don't think anyone has made the claim that this "origin" of Red Sonja was written by Howard. It is *completely* the work of the comics writer (Roy Thomas, I believe). > PS: For that matter, I believe 'Red Nails' is the only story Red > Sonja even appears it. Now Belit was another matter altogather. By the way, there is no character named "Red Sonja" in *any* of Howard's stories. The character in "Red Nails" that you refer to was Valeria, not Sonja. There was a character in a non-Conan story called "Red Sonya" (note the spelling difference), and Roy Thomas thought she'd be a good basis for a "female version of Conan". Thus was Red Sonja born. The story with Red Sonya ("The Shadow of the Vulture") took place in the Middle Ages and had nothing to do with the Conan series, though Roy Thomas adapted it into a Conan story for the comic book. And Belit only appeared in one story, too --- "Queen of the Black Coast". --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 22:50:39 GMT From: xanth!revell@rutgers.edu (James R Revell Jr) Subject: Re: Help!... Find me a good series please... One of my favorite authors has to be Jack L. Chalker. He has a few series I find very stimulating. If you enjoy one, you'll enjoy them all! All are relating to subjects that are often secondary in mainstream sf. I. The Four Lords of the Diamond II. Soul Rider III. The Lords of the Middle Dark IV. other series Most of these series are about 4 books long. Another Author, Jason Scott Card, has a very intriquing set I recommend. "Enders Game", and the new followup novel. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 87 15:58:10 -0800 From: obrien@aero2.aero.org Subject: Re: Help! New fantasy recommendations Well, it happens that I can recommend two somewhat related series. The first, a classic in the field, is by Jack Vance: The Dying Earth The Eyes of the Overworld Cugel's Saga Rhialto the Marvellous All are fun; the first is probably the best. It's been around for a lot of years and won the Hugo, I believe. If it didn't it should have. Because "The Dying Earth" has been around for a lot of years, it's had time to influence other writers in the field, notably Gene Wolfe. Putting his own (rather darker) stamp on it, Mr. Wolfe came up with one of the best novels I've ever read, "The Book of the New Sun". This has been published in four volumes, to wit: The Shadow of the Torturer The Claw of the Conciliator The Sword of the Lictor The Citadel of the Autarch No doubt about it, these books are hard to read. To help out, there's a small-press book of essays by Wolfe called "The Castle of the Otter" (title from a misprint in Locus) which includes, among other things, a glossary of the exotic terms in the first volume. Wolfe invents no new words in this series, but has come up with some awfully obsure old ones: "anpiel", "amschaspand" and "chiliarc" are among my favorites. "The Book of the New Sun" is the greatest novel of redemption that I have ever read. Mike O'Brien obrien@aerospace.aero.org aero!obrien ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 87 20:50:31 PST From: mkao@pnet01.CTS.COM (Mike Kao) Subject: Some recommendations I just want to heartily recommend Raymond E. Feist's _Riftwar Saga_. It is one great series. Has anyone talked to this guy? He lives right in San Diego! ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 03:46:03 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: 1986: the year in review Publishers Weekly just came out with its 1986 year in review, and I thought I'd summarize the point that might be interesting to you folks out there. In 1986, a total of 42,793 different titles were published, down from 50,070 in 1985. Fiction accounted for 4,877 titles, down from 5,106. Fiction was not broken down by category, unfortunately. Hardcover prices for volumes under $81 (to keep very high priced books from skewing) were basically stable. Overall, prices went from $26.57 in 1985 to $26.61. In fiction, pricing went from $15.24 to $15.82. Mass Market paperback pricing went from $3.63 to $3.87, with fiction going from $3.24 to $3.49. Trade paperbacks went up significantly: from $13.98 to $14.65, but fiction trade paperbacks took a nosedive, from $13.66 to $8.50. Total # of volumes (new, reprint, etc..) was also flat to slightly down. For hardback, it went from 30,104 to 25,561, and in fiction from 1,799 volumes in 1985 to 1,766 volumes in 1986. mass market volume went from 3,807 to 3,632, with fiction dropping from 2,524 to 2,365. Trade paperback went volumes plummetted from 15,075 in 1985 to 12,513 in 1986, while fiction volumes dropped from 726 to 700. What's this all mean? In general, there are slightly fewer titles being published, in good part because of the continuing trend towards a few megapublishers, but also because it is simply impossible to publish 43,000 different titles in a given year and have any chance of most of them suceeding. Publishing continues to be an insane business, where you spend 18 months getting a product to market, and then ignore it because you're so busy with the other 37 products you're working on you have no time for it. sigh. Pricing is stable, except in the trade paperback world, which (except for fiction) tends to be a little less price competitive. Publishing is in a consolidation phase, and will probably continue this way until the current takeover rage slows down. Just to make sure everyone understands the terminology, a hardcover is the cloth bound books, a mass market is the standard sized book you buy at the supermarket or in the bookstore racks. Trade Paperbacks are everything paper or cardstock bound that is larger than the normal paperback -- most computer books, for instance, fall in this category. The only really fascinating figures are the fiction trade paperback area. There seems to be a continuing resistance from the consumer towards buying the larger (and pricier) trade paperbacks for fiction. Number of titles is down significantly, but more importantly, average cost is down by over 1/3. This means that publishers have still not convinced people that buying the more expensive books is worth it -- as an experiment to get people unwilling to pay hardback prices to buy a better product, this looks to have failed miserably. I don't really think the publishers have found a way to differentiate a trade paperback fiction book from a mass market paperback in a way to justify the price difference. Personally, with very few exceptions, I doubt they will be able to, either. How did Science Fiction and Fantasy do this year? Let's take a look at the 1986 bestsellers. In hardcover, the only book to make the 1986 top 15 for Publishers Weekly was "It" by Stephen King. It sold 1,206,266 copies in 1986. Not a good year for category blockbusters in hardcover. Foundation and Earth by Asimov placed 18th with 170,000 copies, Mordant's Need: The Mirror of Her Dreams by Donaldson was 23 (140,000), The Songs of Distant Earth was 25th (135,000), and Fortune of Fear #5 by Hubbard placed 30 with 111,638. Other titles with sales greater than 100,000 included: Magic Kingdom for sale: Sold! by Terry Brooks, and three of the other four Hubbard books: #2, #3, and #4. Parenthetically, Ernest Hemmingway's book, Garden of Eden, was sandwiched between Donaldson's and Clarke's books at 137,000 copies. For some reason, this bothers me, but I don't know why... In the trade paperback world, there were three books that sold more than 200,000 copies. They were the three Dragonlance volumes from TSR: War of the Twins (391,000), Time of the Twins (364,000) and Test of the Twins (354,000), all by Weis and Hickman. TSR also scored with Grayhawk adventures #2, Artifact of Evil by Gary Gygax (150,000). Writer's of the Future Volume II (Bridge) sold 82,000, Mists of Avalon by Bradley sold 80,000, and Wishsong of Shannara by Brooks sold 55,000. In the Mass Market section, there was Stephen King (Thinner, 3,136,000; Skeleton Crew, 2,834,000; Talisman (with peter Straub), 2,690,000; and The Bachman Books, 2,000,000 [which ALSO sold 50,000 in trade paperback]) and there was the rest of the category: Jean Auel re-issued Clan of the Cave Bear and sold 4,945,000 and also sold 2,970,000 of The Mammoth Hunters. The only two other category books to top 1,000,000 sales were Contact by Carl (yes, I really did write it) Sagan at 1,298,000 copies, and Strangers, by Dean Koontz at 1,100,000. What's all this say? If you want a block buster hit, change your name. Or write horror. Or both. It also points out that there is a growing market for what is being called Mass Market hardcovers -- people are breaking down their resistance to paying the higher price for the hardcover books. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 25 Mar 87 1018-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #110 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Mar 87 1018-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #110 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 25 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 110 Today's Topics: Films - Quatermain (3 msgs) & War Games & War of the Worlds & Spaceballs & Man Facing Southeast & Forbidden Planet (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Feb 87 11:12:01 GMT From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) Subject: Re: Alan Quatermain ostroff@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jack H. Ostroff) writes: >>... One of these was called "Quatermain and the Pit," and ... > >I think you mean "Quatermass and the Pit." I believe they are >totally unrelated. I also believe the Quatermass movies were >discussed on this list several months ago (perhaps longer). There is absolutely no relation between the two.Alan Quatermain is the main character in the novel "King Solomon's Mines" by H.Rider Haggard and is a pretty similar to Indiana Jones.Professor Quatermass was a creation of Nigel Kneale,and there were 3 (I think) films made from the books.The final book was eventually made into a TV serial in Britain,starring John Mills if I am not mistaken,and a pretty doomladen affair that is (like a very downbeat Childhood's End). jml ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 08:06:32 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Alan [sic] Quatermain First of all, I was chagrined to note that my earlier posting on the subject said: > It's quite possible that the script he first saw wasn't all that > bad, but ended up going through so many revisions that whatever > hypothetical worth existed was exorcised completely. I meant "excised". From: puff!williams (Karen Williams) > I haven't seen the Richard Chamberlain Alan Quatermain movies yet, > but I was wondering if they bore any relation at all to the series > of Quatermain (yes, I mean Quatermain not Quartermain) movies that > were made in the fifties-sixties. One of these was called > "Quatermain and the Pit," and there were about five of them. The > one I saw had a spaceship found buried in London, that had once > contained aliens that looked like grasshoppers. If anyone knows > anything about any of this, please let me know so I'll know, too. > Thanks. Not even close. I don't mean to be a pedant, but... (1) You got the spelling of "Quatermain" correct, but the first name is spelled "Allan". (2) The Richard Chamberlain movies are based on the character created by Sir Henry Rider Haggard in the late 19th Century. The first of the Chamberlain films, KING SOLOMON'S MINES is based on the classic novel of the same title. The second film is supposedly (but I can't confirm, since I haven't seen it) based on ALLAN QUATERMAIN, the sequel to KSM. (3) The British film series you refer to is not about Allan Quatermain, but Bernard Quatermass. The names are even pronounced differently. The first syllable of Allan's surname has a short "a" (so that it rhymes with "squat"); the first syllable of Bernard's has a long "a" (so that it rhymes with "weight"). (4) I won't bother with details about the Quatermass film series, since Evelyn Leeper has done so already. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 87 18:01:26 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: Alan Quatermain williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes: >One of these was called "Quatermain and the Pit," and there were >about five of them. The one I saw had a spaceship found buried in >London, that had once contained aliens that looked like >grasshoppers. Gee, I saw a movie with the same plot, one of my all time favorites, only it was called "Five Million Years to Earth", and had no character called "Alan Quatermaine". Perhaps you're confusing him with Stuart Damon's character "Dr. Alan Quartermaine" on General Hospital. ( B{), in case you couldn't guess). ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 87 17:12:11 EST From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: The origin of War Games. I haven't seen the movie, but a freind of mine tells me that "War Games" is based on an actual incident. Some kid was hacking around, and had gotten into some computer somewhere that dialed him up to another one higher up, and so on, until he wound up in the main defense computer at NORAD. He didn'tt realize this until he got this on his screen: WHICH SILOS WOULD YOU LIKE TO ACTIVATE FOR LAUNCH? _ or something like that. The kid looked at this, realized what it probably was, took his hands off the keyboard, picked up the other phone, and called the FBI. It took him a while to get anyone to believe him, but there were 11 cars in the driveway in a very short time. The CIA was also there, as were the SAC, the Army, and all sorts of people. They were not pleased to find how easy it had been for him to break in there, but the kid was commended for having the presence of mind to not touch the keyboard and to call the FBI, rather than trying to get out of it and doing the wrong thing. There could not have been an actual launch, as the codes would not have come through; there would just have been a hell of a lot of confusion at NORAD. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 87 14:26 EDT From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: 2 Welles and a Pal For total clarity: 'War of the Worlds' - A novel by H.G. Wells 'War of the Worlds' - A paranoia inducing radio show from 1938 produced by Orson Welles' Mercury Theater. He and his troupe went on to make the classic SF film 'Citizen Kane' (hee hee). 'War of the Worlds' - A film by George Pal. One interesting point on this is that George Pal realized the potential for SF decades before Lucas and Spielberg came along. The effects in WOTW are pretty damned impressive. Pal's interest in intelligent SF was also shown in his films such as 'When Worlds Collide', which he was in the process of trying to remake before his death. Pal also contributed significantly to the field of animation with his beloved Puppetoons in the Nineteen Forties. What a guy. Another interesting point is that the martian war machines, heat rays and all, appeared in the 1980 Japanese film 'Be Forever Yamato'. For no apparent reason, the alien invaders in this movie wander around Earth's cities in giant tripod ships! It's great! Dan Parmenter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 87 10:48:21 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Mel Brooks making an SF movie From the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Friday, 6 Mar 87: MEL BROOKS AIMS AT OUTER SPACE by Bob Thomas of the Associated Press Culver City, CA After a five-year absence, His Royal Madness Mel Brooks is once more reigning on a movie set. Having already sent up Westerns ("Blazing Saddles"), horror ("Young Frankenstein"), suspense ("High Anxiety"), and epics ("History of the World, Part I"), Brooks is now doing a number on space movies. His new movie is called "Spaceballs", and the production has commandeered a large number of the stages on the Lorimar Telepictures lot. The other day Brooks was working on Stage 30, which contained the command post of the universe's largest space vehicle -- it will take the length of the film credits to pass before the screen. Brooks was directing a scene in which Rick Moranis, in cape and huge black headpiece as the infamous Dark Helmet, flies through the air. The trick scene required preparations by a small army of technicians. "I am the victim of G forces; this is the part of making movies that I don't enjoy," said Brooks. He prefers working with comic actors instead of special effects, and he has a rich array in "Spaceballs". The leads are newcomers Bill Pullman, as the space bum Lone Starr,and Daphne Zuniga as "Her Spoiled Highness" Princess Vespa, daughter of Roland, King of the Druids, played by Dick Van Patten. After finally getting Rick Moranis airborne, Brooks paused to explain why five years elapsed between "History of the World" and "Spaceballs". "Well, I have been busy. I made 'To Be or Not to Be' with my wife (Anne Bancroft), though I didn't direct it. Most of all, I have been getting my company, Brooksfilms, in operation. We've made some very interesting pictures: 'The Elephant Man', 'Frances', 'My Favorite Year', 'The Fly', and '84 Charing Cross Road'. That has taken a lot of time and effort, but I felt it was worth it." Are there any movie genres left for Brooks to attack? "I don't know. I just about ruined them all," he replied. "Let's see, what could I do next?" "What I'd like to do is a movie about where the real money is made in the film business: the concession stand. That's why they build multiplexes with 16 theaters. The concession stands are always busy, and the things they sell aren't cheap. "Theater owners don't like my pictures because there's no time for the audience to get popcorn. So in 'Spaceballs' I'm throwing a love scene in the middle, and everyone under 20 can go to the concession stand." ***End of Article*** ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 87 19:51:27 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu Subject: MAN FACING SOUTHEAST MAN FACING SOUTHEAST (HOMBRE MIRANDO AL SUDESTE) A film review by Mark R. Leeper Copyright 1987 Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: A serious science fiction film from Argentina has a psychiatrist faced with a Christ-like patient who claims to be an alien. This is a film with a lot to say about psychiatry, hunger, charity, and religion. With that much to say it is, perhaps, over-ambitious. It does not do everything right but what is right is worth seeing. Argentina is not one of the countries one generally expects to be making science fiction films. It has had a film industry for quite a long time--as anyone who has heard EVITA knows--but their films seem rarely seem to get international play and do not seem to have much fantasy, in any case. Yet Argentina has a heritage of literary fantasy led until his recent death by Jorge Luis Borges. Borges's influence can be felt in a new fantasy science fiction film from Argentina, MAN FACING SOUTHEAST. The film combines elements of THE MAN WHO FELL TO EARTH and ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO'S NEST. The main character of MAN FACING SOUTHEAST is a psychiatrist in an insane asylum. Dr. Denis is disturbed by his inability to really help his patients and by the asylum's callous and factory-like treatment of patients. One patient's fantasy, incidentally, is an uncredited enactment of the painting "The Lovers" by Magritte. But a new patient appears at the asylum one day, committing himself. It is Rantes's apparent delusion that he is an extra-terrestrial sent to Earth on a mission. He commits himself voluntarily because he knows society would only commit him more forcibly if he did not. Rantes sees the suffering and pain around him and the selfishness of the comfortable. In a number of scenes he turns the tables. But Dr. Denis is the real center of the story. Facing pressure to drug Rantes out of what may or may not be an illusion (actually the audience knows which but the doctor does not), Denis sees himself as Pontius Pilate, being forced to crucify another Jesus. As more patients at the asylum become disciples of Rantes, the pressures increase on the bewildered psychiatrist to fulfill his role as the later-day Pilate. MAN FACING SOUTHEAST is an intelligent science fiction film that needs no special effects. It is at once a cry of social despair, a philosophical essay, and a science fiction story. If anything it tries to be too much and spreads itself too thin; often it gives way to cliche. Yet in many ways it is comparable to THE MAN IN THE WHITE SUIT and if the Argentine industry follows the same path the British did, we can hope to see a lot more good films from it in the future. Rate MAN FACING SOUTHEAST a +2 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 87 10:48 CST From: (System Manager) Subject: Forbidden Planet is NOT The Tempest paaaaar@calstate.bitnet writes: >(2)"Forbidden Planet" is clearly Shakespeare's "Tempest" minus the >humor. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have actually READ Shakespeare's "The Tempest". If the creators of "Forbidden Planet" said they got the idea from the play, they must have been reading the Cliff's Notes commentary. (Or the advertisers were really stuck on getting English Literature majors to see a "science fiction" film. Great for high-school classes covering the classics - just go see the movie!) There is as much correlation between DUNE and Shakespeare's "Julias Caesar". Is anyone seriously suggesting that Frank Herbert copped his story from old William's notes? [Correlations: they both deal with issues of power in high places, treachery of friends, ...] Shakespeare's plays cover a WIDE range of human problems, foibles, aspirations, fears. Science Fiction/Fantasy/Speculative Fiction also deal with the same issues (not necessarily from a "human" viewpoint either!). There is bound to be some overlap in themes. Dave Meile davidli@simvax.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 20:27:33 GMT From: cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) Subject: Re: Forbidden Planet is TOO The Tempest DAVIDLI@SIMVAX.BITNET writes: > I don't know about the rest of you, but I have actually READ >Shakespeare's "The Tempest". If the creators of "Forbidden Planet" >said they got the idea from the play, they must have been reading >the Cliff's Notes commentary. Excuse me: I, too, have read "The Tempest"; quite often, in fact. Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if *many* readers of sf have also read "The Tempest", since it's one of Shakespeare's few fantasies. So don't go gettin' so high-falutin' with us, OK? I would think it obvious that the creators of "Forbidden Planet" *did* get the idea from "The Tempest", the similarities are so strong. Perhaps your problem is that you're looking for too close a correlation. But try this: Both stories involve castaways being found by a ship. The castaways consist of a father and his daughter; the daughter has never seen any human other than her father and she naturally falls in love with someone from the ship. The father is a wonder-worker, served by two beings, a faithful servant and a monster, both of whom are left to him by the previous inhabitant(s) of the "island". The father cannot control the monster as well as he can the faithful servant. If this is a "Cliff's Notes"-level correlation, fine, so be it. But it's there, nonetheless. > There is as much correlation between DUNE and Shakespeare's > "Julias Caesar". Is anyone seriously suggesting that Frank > Herbert copped his story from old William's notes? [Correlations: > they both deal with issues of power in high places, treachery of > friends, ...] I don't see the same level of correlation between DUNE and "Julius Caesar" as I do between "Forbidden Planet" and "The Tempest", and I don't recall anyone, other than yourself, suggesting *any* correlation between DUNE and "Julius Caesar". Knocking over a straw man won't win your argument here! > Shakespeare's plays cover a WIDE range of human problems, > foibles, aspirations, fears. Science Fiction/Fantasy/Speculative > Fiction also deal with the same issues (not necessarily from a > "human" viewpoint either!). There is bound to be some overlap in > themes. True, but I cannot recall another work that will match the description I gave above. If there is another such work, I would suspect that it, too, was inspired by "The Tempest". Don't be so goddamned literal-minded! Sheesh! Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!rutgers!elbereth!cje ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 26 Mar 87 1030-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #111 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Mar 87 1030-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #111 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 26 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 111 Today's Topics: Books - Post Holocaust Stories (14 msgs) & Recommendations (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Mar 87 22:48:09 GMT From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alex B. Granok) Subject: Post-Holocaust Novels--The List Well, here it is. This is the entire list that I have of Post-Holocaust novels and short stories that were recommended to me by people on the net. I didn't include the descriptions of the various works, but If you want a brief summary (as I got it originally), just let me know and I will send it to you. I know that this list is far from complete, but it is a pretty good list, I think. I'll head the list with some that I have read and that weren't mentioned by other people (at least in the articles I managed to salvage). The Pelbar Cycle--Paul O. Williams A Canticle for Leibowitz --Miller Now, for the rest of the list: "The Judgement of Eve," by Edgar Pangborn "Engine Summer," by John Crowley. Fred Saberhagen's Empire of the East trillogy: "The Broken Lands", "The Black Mountains", and "Changeling Earth". The Postman David Brin False Dawn Chelsea Quinn Yarbro Alas Babylon Somebody Frank or Frank Somebody Of Mist, Grass and Sand Vonda N. McIntyre David R. Palmer. _Emergence_ _Threshold_ Larry Niven's "Hammerfall" John Dalmas _The_Yngling_ _But_Mainly_By_Cunning works of Edgar Pangborn Michael Swanwick's _In the Drift_ Once again, thank you to all who sent (or re-sent) me their favorites. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 23:00:11 GMT From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alex B. Granok) Subject: Post-Holocaust Works--Addendum No sooner had I posted the list that I had when I came across another list that someone had given me. So, here it is: EARTH ABIDES by George R. Stewart [someone's already praised this on the net; I agree 100%: this is a great book] ON THE BEACH by Nevil Shute [a classic] ALAS, BABYLON by Pat Frank EMERGENCE by David(?) Palmer DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS by John Wyndham [a good British TV version of this is currently playing here in LA] A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ by Walter Miller THE WILD SHORE by Kim Stanley Robinson RE-BIRTH or THE CHRYSALIDS by John Wyndham FISKADORO by ?? (published in '85 or '86) DAMNATION ALLEY by Zelazny (I think) THE POSTMAN by David Brin (last year's publication) the Tripods trilogy (THE WHITE MOUNTAINS, THE CITY OF GOLD AND LEAD, THE POOL OF FIRE) by John Christopher -- these are really Post-Invasion stories, not Post-Holocaust, but they have some of the same feel. WORLDS APART, the 2nd book of the (supposedly) WORLDS trilogy by Haldeman, is not really a Post-Holocaust book but has some scenes of "the world just after the big bang" THE AMTRAK WARS by Patrick Tilley - anyone know if #3 is out yet ? HEIRO'S JOURNEY by Sterling Lanier THE DEATH OF GRASS THE WORLD IN WINTER WRINKLE IN THE SKIN - all by John Christopher (I think) LUCIFER'S HAMMER by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle [oops, I lied; I've read this -- fun adventure] WORLD ENOUGH AND TIME by James(?) Kahn - part of a trilogy, can't remember the other ones That should do it for now. The list is pretty long. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 21:20:23 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Novels--The List >Of Mist, Grass and Sand Vonda N. McIntyre > >David R. Palmer. > _Emergence_ > _Threshold_ "Of Mist, Grass and Sand" was the short story. The book is "Dreamsnake". A rare example of bigger-is-better. "Emergence" is a superb Post-Holocaust Novel. Threshold is not related, not post-holocaust, and not superb. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 22:43:58 GMT From: fish@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Bob Fishell) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works--Addendum I looked over both the lists, and I failed to notice a novella titled "The House by the Crabapple Tree," which was one of the most emotionally stunning pieces of "post-holocaust" SF I have ever read. The trouble is, I cannot remember who wrote it. It appeared in _The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction_ in the middle '60s, I think, and I'm sure I've seen it anthologized somewhere. I looked for it in my collection of anthologies, though, and I couldn't find it. Anybody else out there remember this story? Who wrote it, when? Bob Fishell ihnp4!ihlpa!fish ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 20:15:41 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Post Plague Holocaust Novels > leonard@percival.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) >> wyzansky@nadc >>John Dalmas wrote _The_Yngling_, [...] The main reason I am >>bringing this up is that the book ends with an obvious hook for a >>sequel. Does anyone out there know if such a sequel has ever been >>published? > > Yes. Tor Books published "Homecoming" in September 1984. I found > a copy on the shelves of a bookstore only a few months ago. Me too. (Though in my case, closer to a year ago.) > It deals with an expedition from a colony cut off by the cessation > of interstellar travel. They have finally managed to build a > starship and when they land on Earth they run into the Master of > the "orcs" that Nils and company were fighting in the first > book... Right. But I found the sequel very disappointing. The original posed some interesting thoughts, and Nils' constant state of effortless ego-free satori was a fascinating premise. But somehow the sequel lost track of that, and was just a sort of muddled adventure tale. Not that I have anything against adventure tales, muddled or not, but the original was something more, and whatever the something was, the sequel lacked it. Some of the problem was that the resolution of the plot of "Homecoming" was rather arbitrary and contrived for my tastes. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 01:20:38 GMT From: 3comvax!michaelm@rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works For centuries-after-the-catastrophe stories, let's not forget *Re-Birth* by John Wyndham. I'm also fond of the *Maurai* series by Poul Anderson, collected in *Maurai and Kith* and the long novel *Orion Shall Rise*. Michael McNeil 3Com Corporation Santa Clara, California (408) 970-1835 work (408) 335-2069 home {hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma} !oliveb!3comvax!michaelm ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 19:16:59 GMT From: maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works I read a short novel awhile ago through the SF Book Club called "Level Seven" that was about the inhabitants of a deep-below-the surface missile command post before and after the big boom. I remember it as being not too bad. Anyone else? ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 19:42:21 GMT From: maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works--Addendum Was "There will come soft rains..." on the list? Do poems count? ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 87 18:21:44 GMT From: ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works Let's not forget, unless of course I missed the posting and am now being an idiot again, _Damnation Alley_ NOT the movie, tho' it was OK. The book/story (novellette?) which inspired the movie- they only are really similar in that the world is very strange after a war many years ago (100?), there are motorcycles and large very tough vehicles involved, etc. (remember the Landmasters? those suckers actually were built for the movie, believe it or not- impressive monsters! :-) ) For the life of me I can't remember who wrote it! Last seen in Joe Haldeman's _Supertanks_ collection, but it's been around a while. Incidentally, I remember in the movie the one guy WAS named Tanner. WAS his first name "Hell", as in the book? Good story. Eric Carpenter ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 87 01:40:47 GMT From: robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes: > _Damnation Alley_ > >NOT the movie, tho' it was OK. The book/story (novellette?) which >inspired the movie- they only are really similar in that the world >is very strange after a war many years ago (100?), there are >motorcycles and large very tough vehicles involved, etc. (remember >the Landmasters? those suckers actually were built for the movie, >believe it or not- impressive monsters! :-) ) I've noticed that a RolePlaying Game called "The Morrow Project" has source material which deals with the Landmasters, as well as with the science vehicle used on a Saturday morning live-action TV show called (I believe) Earth I. The second vehicle in question looked like a cross between an M113 APC and a motorhome (it was white, and had a detachable, but integrated, trailer). Does anyone know whether the game book, the movie and the TV show have any relation to one another? >For the life of me I can't remember who wrote it! Last seen in Joe >Haldeman's _Supertanks_ collection, but it's been around a while. > >Incidentally, I remember in the movie the one guy WAS named Tanner. >WAS his first name "Hell", as in the book? No it wasn't. For better or worse the movie and book were almost completely different. Robert Allen, robert@spam.istc.sri.com ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 87 05:46:34 GMT From: charon!cs1551bb@rutgers.edu (Brian Bowers) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works I seem to recall seeing a book called _Damnation Alley_ written by Roger Zelazny (sp?) though I've never claimed my memory was infallible. Brian Bowers cs1551bb@charon.unm.edu ------------------------------ From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works Date: 24 Mar 87 16:19:34 GMT ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes: > _Damnation Alley_ > >NOT the movie, tho' it was OK. It was OK? We musta been watching a different movie. The very idea of casting Jan Michael Vincent (there's a hyphen in there somewhere) as "Hell" Tanner is an affront to the name of Zelazny, who, by the way, now refuses to have any of his works filmed, specifically BECAUSE of this film. >The book/story (novellette?) which inspired the movie- First, a short story; later a novel(ette?). >they only are really similar in that the world is very strange >after a war many years ago (100?), there are motorcycles and large >very tough vehicles involved, etc. (remember the Landmasters? >those suckers actually were built for the movie, believe it or not- >impressive monsters! :-) ) Yep. And those are ONLY similarities. >Incidentally, I remember in the movie the one guy WAS named Tanner. >WAS his first name "Hell", as in the book? Yup. You know right away when you shake his hand, 'cause it's written on his knuckles (kinda like Eddie in Rocky Horror). >Good story. Damn straight. Bill Kaufman lll-crg!ames-titan!ames!orion!kaufman kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.GOV ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 87 18:01:01 GMT From: robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) writes: >ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes: >> _Damnation Alley_ >> >>NOT the movie, tho' it was OK. > >It was OK? We musta been watching a different movie. The very >idea of casting Jan Michael Vincent (there's a hyphen in there >somewhere) as "Hell" Tanner is an affront to the name of Zelazny, >who, by the way, now refuses to have any of his works filmed, >specifically BECAUSE of this film. Whoa there hoss! I believe that George Peppard was named "Tanner" in the movie, and Jan-Michael Vincent was his sidekick. Robert Allen, robert@spam.istc.sri.com ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 87 18:17:32 GMT From: ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works I wrote asking/commenting: >> _Damnation Alley_ >>For the life of me I can't remember who wrote it! Last seen in >>Joe Haldeman's _Supertanks_ collection, but it's been around a >>while. one reply : > I seem to recall seeing a book called _Damnation Alley_ written by > Roger Zelazny (sp?) though I've never claimed my memory was > infallible. I was thinking Zelazny when I wrote the first post, but wasn't sure- some how it seemed off. I checked- yes, it WAS Roger Zelazny who wrote the book. And once again, the movie resembled the book VERY little. (Incidentally, I used to have the specs for the Landmasters somewhere- gone now, I guess...Anyone else have 'em?) Also, somebody mentioned "Earth I", a Sat. morn. kids show: anyone remember "Ark II"? (Note: I don't remember it as that good, but I was young then) Eric ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 87 09:21:21 EST From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa Subject: Fantasy Recommendation There are two really excellent books by L. Sprague DeCamp, titled "The Compleat Enchanter" and "Wall of Serpents". The hero, Harold Shea, is a psychologist. In testing one of his boss's theories, Harold winds up in the universe of Norse mythology-- just in time for Ragnarok. In the second half of the book, both he and his boss wind up in Spenser's "Faerie Queen". Finally (hmm... too many halves!) the action shifts to the universe of "Orlando Furioso", where Harold has to rescue the one-and-only that he married in mid-book. "Wall of Serpents" takes Harold, his firends, and an unfortunate member of New York's Finest into the Finnish "Kalevala"(?), and thence into Celtic myth. These might be a bit hard to find, I think they will be worth the effort. Not only do you get good stories, but you also get a broad survey of various mythologies for much less than the price of enrolling in Comp. Lit. 210. Good Reading ! Dave Wegener ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 87 11:19 PST From: lance@LOGICON.ARPA Subject: RE: series Here is a list of some series (serieses?) that are worth looking at. I'm sorry but I did not list Zelazny, Lieber, Anthony, Heinlein, Asimov, Tolkien, Norton, Burroughs, Lewis, etc. etc. (although all are good at times). Mckillip, Patricia Riddle Master of He'd, Heir of Sea and Fire, Harpist in the Wind Elgin, Suzette Hadin Ozark Trilogy, and Coyote Jones series recently combined with her book "The End of the Matter" (? title) Ozark: Twelve Fair Kingdoms, The Grand Jubilee, And Then There'll be Fireworks Jones: 4 books, one is, Star Anchored, Star Angered (5 with The_End_of_the_Matter) Tepper, Sheri Her True Game stories are excellent. Trilogy 1: King Blood's Four, Necromancer Nine, Wizard's Eleven Trilogy 2: Mavin the Manyshaped, The Flight of Mavin the Manyshaped, The search for Mavin the Manyshaped Trilogy 3: Jinoin Footseer, Dervish Daughter, Jinoin Star-eye Schmitz, James H Telzey Amberdon, Telzey Toy and other Stories, The Lion Game Abbey, Lynn Daughter of the Bright Moon, The Black Flame McAvoy, R. A. Damiano, Damiano's Lute, Raphael Friesner, Esther M. A new series with 2 out of 9 published. one is "Mustapha and his Wise Dog" The series is sort of an arabian nights type setting and atmosphere. She writes entertainingly. Lee, Tanith - any series, anything. Flat Earth series (5 books) arabian nightish Four Bee novels (2 books) sort of something SF, (dissatisfied utopians) Birthgrave (3 books) heroic fantasy type Schmidt, Dennis Way-Farer is the start of a series and it was good. Has somebody else read anything that was not first published over 10 years ago :-)? Were the books good, bad, entertaining? lance lance@logicon.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 26 Mar 87 1052-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #112 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Mar 87 1052-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #112 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 26 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 112 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Decompression (4 msgs) & Stardrives & Cons & Teleportation (4 msgs) & Time Travel (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Mar 87 19:59:51 GMT From: cblpe!bcm@rutgers.edu (Bob Morman) Subject: Re: What gets you first ? perkins@bnrmtv.UUCP (Henry Perkins) writes: >> If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit, >> what is the result ? I'm well aware that the outlook is not >> good, :-), but what is it that kills you ? > >All the air rushes out of your lungs FAST. You shouldn't have any >problems if your mouth is open. > >You run low on oxygen in your blood, and pass out. > >Your blood starts to boil. You die. > >Depending on your nearness to a sun, your body gets baked/frozen. I though you would explode due to the fact that there is no pressure in outer space, thus nothing to counter your internal pressure. Like trying to bring a deep deep sea fish to the surface, it will explode before you get it out of the water. Bob Morman AT&T Bell Labs Columbus, OH. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 02:57:23 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: What gets you first ? >If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit, >what is the result ? I'm well aware that the outlook is not >good, :-), but what is it that kills you ? Clarke believes that it's possible to survive without a space suit for a short time. (2001 is NOT the only example; see [oh, DAMN, I lent it to my mother; since her filing system makes mine look like the Library of Congress :-) I may never see it again!] -- I think he has a chapter about it in THE VIEW FROM SERENDIP.) Anyway, the limitations vary; for someone in poor condition it's lack of oxygen, for someone in better shape it's basically the bends -- nitrogen bubbles (plus oxygen and carbon dioxide) forming in the bloodstream. The other effects take longer. However, if you're not shielded from the sun you'll get one h*ll of a sunburn real fast. Brandon S. Allbery ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET 6614 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 20 Mar 1987 08:05:47-PST From: leavitt%hpscad.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Eric Leavitt) Subject: Sudden Decompression I recently took a flight physiology course at Pease AFB. This course is sponsored by the FAA for pilots - and I'm trying to become one. They spent a lot of time discussing oxygen deprivation, (that was the primary point of the course), and some time discussing total decompression. They have a lot of information from studies on dogs. These experiments are ongoing and are considered important by NASA which is currently doing lots of research on the construction of space stations. Although human experiments were conducted by the Nazis, they have little information from those. Many people seem to expect some very dramatic event to occur. In fact the mechanical pressures involved are not that great for a human body. You experience half of them in suddenly decompressing from sea level to 18M (that's military for 18,000 ft.) which I experienced during the course. It is hardly noticable, except that the room suddenly fogs up. The most dramatic thing happens above 63M. At that level the atmospheric pressure drops below the vapor pressure of your blood - in other words, your blood boils. This is known as the Armstrong limit after an early Air Force flight surgeon. This is the highest that humans can go, even briefly, without a pressure suit. In realistic situations, people can't go higher that 45M without a pressure suit due to oxygen deprivation. When your blood boils it forms a foam. Your body puffs up to the largest volume that your skin can contain - about twice normal size for a human, and about 3 times normal size for a dog. Your heart can't pump foam effectively, and you stop getting blood flow to the brain. At this point, your survival is very similar to that of heart attack victims. Up to about 3 minutes can be survived with little long term damage. From 3 to 5 minutes brain damage is likely, and after 5 minutes death becomes likely. No one will survive longer than 10 minutes. Unfortunately, you won't be conscious for much of this time. The course explains what your TUC (time of useful consciousness) will be for various levels of oxygen deprivation. The TUC for sudden total decompression is 3 to 5 seconds. Very little real damage will occur at the moment of decompression. The only danger then is if you try to hold your breath - you can destroy your lungs. Your reflexes will do the right thing, however. Most of the damage will occur during repressurization. Two dangers are of ear and sinus blocks. These are extremely painful but can be survived. German WWII bomber crews routinely pierced their ear drums before missions to avoid ear block. If you were breathing air (as opposed to pure oxygen) then there is the danger of the "bends" - nitrogen that doesn't redissolve in your blood. The bends can be treated by overpressure and breathing oxygen. NASA expects that all pressure suits will use a pure oxygen environment. However, larger enclosures have used air since the Grissom - Chaffe - White accident. Getting back to a question that was asked in SF-Lovers about 6 months ago: Was the airlock scene in 2001 realistic? I think that just barely - yes. However, it is unlikely that he would have been in shape to immediately get up and walk through the ship. BTW. This course is available to anyone at many places around the country. You just need $20 and have to pass a 3rd class FAA medical. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 16:59:39 GMT From: sunybcs!twomey@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: What gets you first ? >If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit, >what is the result ? I'm well aware that the outlook is not good, >:-), but what is it that kills you ? Has any one else read a story that made reference to a 'Vacuum Breathers Club'? It was an informal club whose members were those people who survived a transfer from airlock to airlock without a suit. The author speculated that a few seconds exposed in space wouldn't kill you. As far as speculations about what kills people, I like the bends as the most likely culprit. However, if the rescuees are waiting in a lock before they have to exit, I would bet that they have some control over their atmosphere, and could start breathing pure oxygen at low pressure. I think the next most likely cause of death would be anoxia (no air to breath right?). ------------------------------ Date: TUESDAY 03/24/87 14:54:36 PST From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO@POMONA> Subject: Re; Stardrives A physicist friend of mine came up with an idea related to the quantam mechanical phenomenon of 'tunneling' where a particle can penetrate a barrier that under classical physics would be totally insurmountable. His idea involves placing the spaceship at a position relative to a star so that there is a potential energy DROP between the gravity well it leaves and the one it enters. The 'barrier' that is penetrated in this way is the intervening space. Before those of you who don't know quantam mech say this sounds totally impossible, believe me, there are things just as peculiar that we KNOW happen!! George Madison 7GMADISO at POMONA.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 10:21:31 EST From: LT Sheri Smith USN Subject: Anyone Have A List of Cons?? I blush to admit it, but although a serious reader of science fiction for (I hate to admit this, too..) going on 15 years now (giving my age away!!), I have never attended a Con. Fact is, didn't know anything about them until I started reading SFL last autumn. All this discussion, however, has piqued my interest, and I would therefore like to get some feedback from the net on the following: 1. Does anyone have a list of (USA) Cons with locations and major interest(s)? (relaxicon, literarycon, mediacon, etc.) 2. Barring that, are there any Cons coming up in the Washington DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Richmond, Norfolk area anytime soon?? 3. Finally, what is/was YOUR favorite and least favorite Con?? E-MAIL me your answer to that last question, and I will consolidate and report back to the net the votes (and reasons) for the 10 favorite and 10 worst Cons. Many thanks!! Sheri ltsmith@mitre.arpa (703) 836-1729 (h) 3842 Brighton Ct Alexandria, VA 22305 PS. Just what does a SFL t-shirt look like, anyhow?? Have been considering ordering one, but never saw it described... ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 87 21:49:17 GMT From: sphinx.UChicago!fla7@rutgers.edu (will flachsbart) Subject: Re: teleportation booths rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes: >As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport >methods that have been used in SF stories. In the adventures of McGill Feighan (sp?), by Kevin O'Donnell Jr., only special people can telport, or fling. They do it by visualizing, sensing, smelling, etc. the place they are at and the place they are going to and then super-imposing the images over one another. They then alter the kinetic energy of the intended teleported object/person so that upon arrival they aren't ripped to shreds, and *ping*, as McDonnell writes, they go. This takes lots of practice with ballons, water ballons etc., and there is an incidental 916.8 kilo limit upon the weight the flinger can send. (I think that's the number) This also incidentally confers upon the flinger a pseudo-telekinetic ability, i.e. by adding kinetic energy to an object, you can accelerate, deccelerate, etc. the object. There are some other quirks, but they are intrinsic to the plot, so I won't spoil it here. Read the books, they are great! will flachsbart !ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!fla7 ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 87 11:40:18 GMT From: bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths > As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport > methods that have been used in SF stories. All I can think of at > the moment are: > 1.Transfer-of-information > 2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying > 3.Transport through hyperspace > 4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's > "Null-A" series. Any others? 5. re-write the equations of the universe so that you are somewhere else. (Jack Chalker's Well of souls series). 6. The quantum uncertanty method. "The probability wave function of a particle decreases the further you get from it's centre, but it never drops to zero. There is a chance that the particle is actually in orbit round another planet. So change the probability." This method was used first by Arthur C Clarke in one of his short stories. (Can anyone remember the title? **SPOILER* The drive went wrong and multiplied the probability, scattering the spacecraft evenly through the universe *END SPOILER* ). Later a similar idea appears as the infinite improbability drive in "The Hitchhiker's Guide". 7. There is also the fourth dimension travel method. usually confused with method 3. above. 8. Then you could always get a lift from a more advanced civilisation and let them wory about how it works. :-) Bob. ERCC. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 87 13:41:15 cst From: Brett Slocum Subject: Re: teleportation Cc: q@umn-cs.arpa describes a "perpetual motion" machine using water and teleporters running a turbine. I have one small problem with this system. When the water falls onto the turbine, it heats up. It does not cool off as the poster suggests. It's called thermodynamics. Gravitional potential energy gets converted to kinetic energy -- read heat. The act of teleporting the water "up" to the receiver adds more potential energy, and eventually the water turns to steam. Even the cooling action of teleporting to a greater height would not compensate for the heat gain, unless you remove the turbine, and then you get no power out. Brett Slocum ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 87 01:58:29 GMT From: 3comvax!michaelm@rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil) Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths (really, duplication Subject: booths) madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes: >kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes: >>(If a representation can be made, and a copy generated from that >>representation, then what's to stop me from "beaming" a copy of me >>to several receivers, generating me several times? It can get >>ugly,...) >_The_Commplete_Venus_Equilateral_ has a detailed discussion on this >(in a pretty amusing story form -- recommended, if out-of-date). >Think of what would happen if you recreated 10 $100 bills. Every >one of them would be real, even though they contain the same serial >number. Bet THAT would crash the economy! For a good exploration of this idea, and the question of whether it would or wouldn't wreck the economy, see the story "Business As Usual During Alterations" (I don't have the author's name handy -- sorry), anthologized in _Prologue_To_Analogue_, an excellent collection edited by John W. Campbell Jr. of some of the best stories of the last decade of _Astounding_, before it became _Analog_. Michael McNeil 3Com Corporation Santa Clara, California (408) 970-1835 (work) (408) 335-2069 (home) {hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma} oliveb!3comvax!michaelm ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 03:15:46 GMT From: ellis@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis) Subject: Re: Time travel and energy (really NOT IMPOSSIBLE !) In a closed Universe , that is, one that starts with a Big Bang and ends with a Gnab Gib (;-) , the total energy is zero. The gravity of the system cancels the mass-energy of all the stars, planets, people, etc that live in it. There is no escape. The Beginning and End of time prevent time travellers from passing before the start of the Universe ( if that has any meaning at all. There is no reason why matter should not travel in time at other than the eternal 1 second of personal time per 1 second of external time. It just means that the energy discrepancy during the period when the object would have existed is cancelled by some other form of energy. For example, quantum dynamics allows a particle, an antiparticle and a photon to appear from nowhere, exist for a short time, and disappear again. Where does the energy discrepancy come from ? The answer is there is none. The energy of the local system is balanced by a loss in energy later on... a particle moving forward in time is exactly analagous to its antiparticle moving backwards in time, and so the whole system can be seen as a closed loop of mass energy chasing its own tail in time. There is even a proven REAL SCIENCE theory plotting timelike paths around a rapidly rotating ultradense object that allows you to emerge at any point in the past or future. So please.... no more of the "time travel is impossible" letters. It isn't. I know. I'm really from 3087, and boy, is this place primitive....;-) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 87 01:45:00 GMT From: seiffert@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: Star-drives Why not a suggestion made by (I forget {shame}) who wrote DOWNTIMEING THE NIGHTSIDE. A very ineresting book where the laws of the universe acted towards an equilibrium to off set time travel. The travelers would change slightly to create the least amount of problems for the universe. Some rough edges granted, but nothing that couldn't be worked out. Kurt seiffert@silver.bacs.indiana.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 26 Mar 87 1111-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #113 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Mar 87 1111-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #113 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 26 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 113 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Chalker (2 msgs) & LeGuin & L'Engle & Martin (2 msgs) & McCaffrey & Rand & Ryan & Baen Book Reprints & Request for Magical Shop Stories ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 24 Mar 87 14:36:50-PST From: Judy Anderson Subject: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla, Brokedown Palace kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith): >According to remarks SKZB made at Ad Astra last year during a >question/answer session after a panel, the "Faerie" of Brokedown >Palace IS the Dragaeran Empire. I don't have the book in front of >me at the moment, and the character's name escapes me, but SKZB >said that the baby refered to at the very end of Brokedown Palace >is in fact Cawti. Hmmm, well, I guess the author always gets the last word, but when I was reading Brokedown Palace I was under the impression that the events in B.P. occurred long before the events in Jhereg/etc. It was clear that the universes were the same, and that Faerie was Dragaera, but unless there's lots more to the Easterner's land holdings than was described in B.P. it sure seems far too small and backwards. It did seem to me that there weren't any other nearby human establishments known to the residents, which is what led me to believe it was far in the past when there were fewer people. Judy. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 24 Mar 87 15:27:26-CST From: Russ Williams Subject: re: Information (details and Magic) haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes in response to Mark Biggar: > One of the nice contributions of Jack Chalker's works is the clear > realization that 'magic' requires information. Poof! you're a > frog...now where did I learn enough about the genetic structure of > a frog to turn you into a functional amphibian? This is fallacious. By that reasoning, a baseball pitcher needs to know all about dynamics and drag, a secretary using a word processor needs to know programming and electrical engineering, a writer needs to know about linguistic theory, a painter needs to know chemistry and optics, anyone merely thinking needs to know about neurons and synapses,... I can imagine a magician poof!ing you into a frog (for your insolence :-) with no knowledge of genetics just as easily as a gourmet might eat and digest you afterwards with no knowledge of digestion. Think how little (nothing) we'd accomplish in life if we had to consciously know all the minutiae of every action we did! Russ ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 87 01:02:27 GMT From: byron@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Byron A Jeff) Subject: Re: Information (details and Magic) From: Russ Williams >haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes in response to Mark Biggar: >> One of the nice contributions of Jack Chalker's works is the >> clear realization that 'magic' requires information. Poof! >> you're a frog...now where did I learn enough about the genetic >> structure of a frog to turn you into a functional amphibian? >This is fallacious. [Gives examples of items being used with no >knowledge by the user] Jack Chalker has quite a few things in common in all of his stuff that I've read. This of course is not law! Qualify each of these with mostly/almost always/always (your choice). 1. He writes series. 2. They involve computers. 3. The computers are sentient. 3. These computers have the ability to change the environment. i.e. create something out of "nothing". 4. Humans can interface to the computers without an obvious physical connection. 5. The computers respond to the humans' request. 6. Humans have no working knowledge of computer or interface. Result - MAGIC! I love the fact that his magic always has hard core S(ci). F(i). (I'm afraid to use one or the other!) backing it up. A few examples that come to mind: 1. Flux series. A classic with all of the above element. Wizards were the humans who could best interface to the computers but have virtually no knowledge of the system. They also have no knowledge of the structure of what they want. I want a frog! SHAZAM! frog. How? Who cares!! 2. Lords of the Diamond. Substitute "Sentient, sleeping planet sized creatures with spores that combine with human host" for computer above and there you have it! I know I'm stretching that a bit but you get the idea. 3. Well World. The Obie - Mavra relationship comes to mind here along with the Big Well computer and the entire universe. Point 6 falls by the wayside with Nathan Brazil though. 4. His current series (the name eludes me at the moment) - Even more mystic because the Master System has placed most of its constituents into a pre-computer mode. What does Silent Woman and Cloud Dancer think when they pop into a chamber on a ship and pop out of another on the surface of a planet? That's right - magic. So what Chalker does is put incredible science into the hands of the ignorant (not stupid, just ignorant). The result is magic. BTW does anyone have a canonical listing of Chalker's works that could be sent to me? I find all of his work fascinating. Byron Jeff E-mail address: {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!byron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 87 02:26:38 -0500 From: kdebiss@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Subject: Ursula k. LeGuin >>I wish to strongly echo the above remarks. _The_Dispossessed_ >>seems to be intended, as is _Atlas_Shrugged_, primarily as a >>political essay (some would say propaganda). >I wish to strongly object to the above remarks. Comparing Ayn Rand >to Ursula Kroeber LeGuin is like comparing Ronald Reagan to Paul >Newman... > >Don't insult LeGuin; she's a good writer. ATLAS SHRUGGED is the... I feel that I have to come to someone's defense here (I'm not sure whether it would be Rand's or the person who wrote that first comment). First, talking about the quality of an author's work is necessarily a subjective statement. I happened to find some of Rand's work (particularly _The _Fountainhead_) rather interesting. I disagree with the philosophy, but as utopian novels go, I found it fairly convicing (anybody read the original, Thomas More's _Utopia_? I recommend that at least for perspective, but also for quality.) I also know many people who have read, and do accept the philosophy of objectivism, both as a personal philosophy and as a mode of government. And these are not just old republicans, but vary in age from 18 to 60 or so. My experience casts doubt on Brandon's statment >her political ideals were, shall we say, not enthusiastically >accepted. with regard to Jeff Myers interpretation >I very much doubt that she was plugging some political agenda with >_The_Dispossessed_. I think that she was interested in showing >that it is possible to conceive of a rationally constructed and >believable egalitarian society -- she uses her anthropology >background to expand the realm of fantasy/sf, not to give us more >BEM novels, in the finest tradition of RAH and >_Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_. I think that in spite of the differences in the skill of the authors in question, I think that some comparison can be made between _SiaSL_, _TD_, and _AS_. They are all basically utopian novels (with veiwpoints that differ in both degree of realism and in political leaning) that have as a goal not a "political agenda" but the expression and provocation of thought. Rand, in fact would probably be the first to admit the need for examination of these systems and individual adaptation of the politcal system that each of us belongs to-sorry, that was almost a non-sequiter- but imagine a system where each community could develop it's own economic structure and so on An individually determined Utopia. But it wouldn't work: "utopia" is no place, and history indicates that it never will be either. There is also an interesting body of nieteenth-century utopian literature (including Bellamy's _Looking Backward_); I have some titles for any one who is interested. By the way, I liked all three authors, but I do admit to preferring LeGuin. Karl DeBisschop kdebiss@athena.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 87 09:06:52 PST (Tuesday) Subject: Re: Madeleine L'Engle From: Gellerman.osbunorth@Xerox.COM > Does anyone remember (or has anyone already mentioned) a rather > whimsical young-adult story called "A Wrinkle In Time" by > Madeleine L'Engle? As someone else mentioned, this was probably the first SF book I ever read. "A Wrinkle In Time" is the first book in her Time Trilogy. The second book is "A Wind in the Door", and the final book is "A Swiftly Tilting Planet." Each book is separable and can be read on its own. The characters grow older and develop nicely throughout the series. "A Wrinkle in Time" of course is a classic, and I highly recommend the final book "A Swiftly Tilting Planet" -- it really gets you thinking and wanting to figure out what's going on.... However, I found "A Wind in the Door" a bit hard to follow at times, but still enjoyable to read. L'Engle has written quite a few other "Young Adult" books, and most of them happen to feature the O'Keefe family which was first introduced in the Time Trilogy. However, other than the name of this family, there appears to be no connection of these other stand-alone books with the Time Trilogy. Scott Gellerman Gellerman.Osbunorth@Xerox.COM ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 87 14:04:04 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: _Tuf Voyaging_ by G.R.R. Martin ian@loral.UUCP (Ian Kaplan) writes: >Armageddon Rag" is a pretty good book also. So far the only book >by Martin (or perhaps I should say with Martin content) that I did >not like is his book "Aces", which I think was recently reviewed by >Mark Leeper. Actually the book reviewed here was WILD CARDS and I reviewed it (not Mark). ACES HIGH is the second book in the series and I'm in the middle of it now. (It's subtitled "Wild Cards II.") Mark is now reading WILD CARDS. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue 24 Mar 87 20:38:29-PST From: SUZY@ECLC.USC.EDU Subject: George R.R. ian@loral.UUCP (Ian Kaplan) writes: >Martin has also written "Fever Dream", which is considered by some >his best book. For those who grew up in the Bay Area "The >Armageddon Rag" is a pretty good book also. George R.R. has also edited and contributed to an anthology called "Wild Cards", with possibly more volumes of it's ilk arriving shortly. I'll never forget my first story by Martin -- "Sandkings". It was the last story in someone else's (name escapes me) anthology. Gave me the creepy crawlies for weeks! Does anyone know if there's another novel in the works? suzy suzy@usc-eclc.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 87 13:24:21 GMT From: diku!rancke@rutgers.edu (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) Subject: Re: Re: Pern Money dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: >The main problem I have with money on Pern is that I can't figure >out who issues it. Traditionally, money is issued by bankers or >some kind of government. There don't seem to be any bankers on >Pern (or lawyers either, (maybe Pernese are communists... no >lawyers -- that's unAmerican :-) ) and the various Holders don't >seem to be in the business of minting money. The various crafthalls issues them. Menolly's 2-mark piece is stamped with the harpercrafthall's mark (hence the name?). Perhaps the holders do so too, although that is not mentioned anywhere. As far as I understand (I don't know if the books say so, or if I just assumed it) the halls guarantees to redeem the marks with products. Hans Rancke University of Copenhagen Institute of Computer Science mcvax@diku@rancke ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 87 22:48:02 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Ayn Rand Cc: ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU > From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM > _Atlas_Shrugged_ ?? I thought this was a figment of Robert > O'Shea's and/or Robert Anton Wilson's imagination, along with > _Telemechus_Sneezed_. Does Atlanta Hope map to Ursula K. LeGuin? It is quite real. _Atlas_Shugged_ is my favorite book of all time. After 30 years it is still in print. Don't start it until you have some time on your hands - you won't want to put it down until you are done, and it is long. Ayn Rand (1905-1982) also wrote _We the Living_, _Anthem_, _The Fountainhead_, and the nonfiction books _Philosophy: Who Needs it_, _For the New Intellectual_, _The Virtue of Selfishness_, _Captitalism: The Unknown Ideal_, and _The Romantic Manifesto_. Even if you don't agree with her philosophy of Objectivism, her books will really shake up your thought patterns, which is after all what SF is FOR, anyway. If you can only read one book this year, this should be the one. I do not know why Shea and Wilson have such an antipathy, since they claim to be libertarians, which share most ideas with objectivists. Their parody ("Telemachus Sneezed" and "Militarism: The Unknown Ideal for the new Heraclitean") make it clear they didn't understand a word they read. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 87 20:19:06 GMT From: marlinw@tekchips.TEK.COM (Marlin Wilson) Subject: Re: The Adolescence of P1 - MAJOR SPOILERS! tmca@ut-ngp.UUCP (Tim Abbott) writes: >MAJOR SPOILERS HEREIN - DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU! >However, to the point: in the blurb on the back of my copy it says >something to the effect of ' the final readout is the most >chilling...' but in the book itself the "final readout" is given >when Linda returns to Waterloo and types 'P1' at the terminal which >then replies: > > OOLCAY ITAY > >Now, am I the victim of a hoax intended to make me ask stupid >questions like this or is this actually supposed to mean something? >(Ignoring the AY's you can get COOL IT out of this, so one would >assume that a somewhat less powerful P1 still exists in the >machine...) Of course it's pig latin for 'cool it'. I took it to mean that, considering all the trouble P1 got into when folks found out about his existence, he had a back door open when they tried their last ploy to destroy him -- and so still exists in some form. I didn't associate the back cover with the story -- 'most chilling'? Back-cover-writers get paid to get you to buy the book. I just found it intriguing and pleasing that P1 had the last laugh and still lives on. And I don't assume a less powerful P1 -- perhaps more so since at that point in the book he's kept his renewed presence secret for a few months. Marlin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 87 20:44:11 PST From: Robert Pratt Subject: Baen books reprints I saw a Baen reprint today (of a Thieves World collection about Tempus) and it was actually labeled as containing previously published material. I hope this is the beginning of a trend. Bob ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 87 01:44:20 GMT From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) Subject: Magical Shop stories I am looking for stories that take place in, or are about, one of those magical shops full of interesting things, that appears out of nowhere. You know the type. Usually there is a wizened old shopkeeper who sells or gives the unsuspecting visitor some magical item that changes (or ruins) his or her life. If you know of any, please email me the title and author. (I know Harlan Ellison wrote a couple of them.) If anyone is interested, I can post a list later. Thanks. Karen Williams g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu williams@puff.wisc.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 30 Mar 87 0854-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #114 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Mar 87 0854-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #114 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 30 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 114 Today's Topics: Books - Zelazny (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Mar 87 06:53:09 PST (Friday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness *** Spoiler Material After this *** Dennis Griesser >>However, in _Creatures of Light and Darkness_ the characters ARE >>gods. > >Wrong again. There are numerous places where the technological >underpinnings of godhood are clearly shown. It was my impression in 'Creatures' that the underpinnings of godhood were only partially mechanical. Certainly Osiris and Anubis used such methods, but the Prince and Horus certainly did not. The Prince, a teleporter and Temporal Fugue master, based his powers solely on these attributes and his native intelligence and wisdom. I don't recall him ever using a machine at all in the books. Horus was a telekinetic and telepath, as well as a fugue artist. He didn't bother with machines either. The most interesting of all, however, was the Steel General, who seemed to have a power unrelated to machines, magic, or paranormal abilities. It appeared that he was simply incapable of being permanently destroyed, no matter what. This power was not related to any instrumentality in particular, but instead to his adherence to high ideals and ethical standards. Thus, there was always someone willing to put him back together. The point though, through the book, is no matter how they do it,these beings are pretty much gods in the ancient sense. They are powerful meddlers in the fate of nations and people, filled with foibles and flaws. The ability and will to be a god is something separate from any particular instrumentality or power. >>Also, this book is more relevent to everyday life (the situations >>and events relate more to occurrences in everyday life). > >OK, when was the last time that, in punishment for losing a war >against the gods, your soul was removed from your body and >imprisoned in the radiation belt around the planet? Or did you >mean your strange mental abilities that allow you to control >creatures of energy. Or perhaps you fought with the gods against >the legions of the undead? How about that time that you went to >buy a new body and they tried to stick you with a defective one? > >Hell, I do this stuff every day! The point about relevancy was that the characters in Lord of Light are motivated by emotions and goals everyday people can relate to: greed, envy, spite, lust for battle, compassion, love, hate, friendship. The beings of Creatures of Light and Darkness seemed much more remote to me, motivated by obscure compulsions and mighty plans for the governance of the races and star systems. I have to agree with Cleave on this one. Kurt Piersol ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 87 12:58:51 GMT From: diku!thorinn@rutgers.edu (Lars Henrik Mathiesen) Subject: Blood of Amber (* SPOILER *) - Why is Merlin so stupid? I just read Blood of Amber, and there's one glaring (to me) implausibility. Consider this: On page 32 (Arbor House hardcover) we're reminded that Merlin has the ability to shapeshift because he's a Lord of Chaos. On page 69 to 71 Merlin experiences a flashback to when he duelled with his half brother Jurt (son of Dara), which cost Jurt an ear. On page 138 to 141 he remembers a picnic where Jurt attacked him - this time it cost Jurt an eye. And then on page 149 to 152 he's attacked by a one-eyed, lop-eared wolf who's come in through a trump gate. He concludes (page 153) that it must be a shape- changed human, and that it must be an initiate of the Trumps (or must have been sent by one). And then he uses a couple of paragraphs wondering who this might be without once considering Jurt. My immediate reaction when the "one-eyed, one-eared wolf" was mentioned was "Oho! Jurt's out for revenge", which is why it just isn't believable to me that Merlin shouldn't think of it. Even though it may be necessary to the story that Merlin don't know who his attacker was, the device of "He just plain didn't think of it" bothers me - I'd much rather have something like "Nah, couldn't be Jurt even though he fits physically, because he never would have the guts to negotiate the Logrus, so he can't have the necessary power." Of course the purpose may be to make us all believe that it was Jurt, but it still isn't plausible that Merlin doesn't think of it. Lars Mathiesen U of Copenhagen, Denmark mcvax!diku!thorinn ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 21:59:28 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness >The most interesting of all, however, was the Steel General... It >appeared that he was simply incapable of being permanently >destroyed, no matter what. This power was not related to any >instrumentality in particular, but instead to his adherence to high >ideals and ethical standards. Thus, there was always someone >willing to put him back together. The Steel General is something of an anomaly in Creatures of L&D, not because he isn't supernatural but because he isn't fantasy. There always *is* someone willing to put him back together. By a similar token, I'm not sure that overgrown pooch was a fantasy figure. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 87 20:01:31 GMT From: eppstein@tom.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) Subject: Blood of Amber (* SPOILER *) - Why is Merlin so stupid? thorinn@diku.UUCP (Lars Henrik Mathiesen) writes: > I just read Blood of Amber, and there's one glaring (to me) >implausibility. ...And then he uses a couple of paragraphs >wondering who this might be without once considering Jurt. My >immediate reaction when the "one-eyed, one-eared Well, he also took an immense amount of time to even begin wondering who Luke was. And Corwin was similarly duped by Dara and Ganelon. So it must be hereditary... David Eppstein eppstein@cs.columbia.edu Columbia U. Computer Science Dept. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 19:01:32 GMT From: epimass!jbuck@rutgers.edu (Joe Buck) Subject: Re: Blood of Amber (* SPOILER *) - Why is Merlin so stupid? Lars Henrik Mathiesen writes: >> I just read Blood of Amber, and there's one glaring (to me) >>implausibility. ...And then he uses a couple of paragraphs >>wondering who this might be without once considering Jurt. My >>immediate reaction when the "one-eyed, one-eared David Eppstein writes: >Well, he also took an immense amount of time to even begin >wondering who Luke was. And Corwin was similarly duped by Dara and >Ganelon. So it must be hereditary... Maybe there's another reason. Merlin is too powerful to write an effective story around. He has all the powers of an Amberite and of a member of the Courts of Chaos. Unlike Corwin, who has quite a few limitations in his use of Shadow, Merlin can go anywhere instantly, or reach out and grab anything out of shadow, or shape-shift. He needs some kind of handicap for any possibility of drama to exist. With half a brain he could defeat any opponent without working up a sweat. Answer: stupidity. I should have stopped reading after the first five. Joe Buck {hplabs,ihnp4,sun,ames}!oliveb!epimass!jbuck seismo!epiwrl!epimass!jbuck {pesnta,tymix,apple}!epimass!jbuck Entropic Processing, Inc., Cupertino, California ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 20:17:37 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness Possible spoilers of _Lord of Light_ or _Creatures of Light and Darkness_. > Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM > It was my impression in 'Creatures' that the underpinnings of > godhood were only partially mechanical. Certainly Osiris and > Anubis used such methods, but the Prince and Horus certainly did > not. But even the non-mechanical methods they used were "explained rationally", not supernaturally. The power of the Temporal Fugue, for example, was portrayed as something that most anyone could learn with a few centuries of concentrated training. The extra abilities of Horus, Set, the Prince Who Was A Thousand, and Typhon all derive (it is at least hinted) from either the fact that the Prince was Set's father, and Set was also the Prince's father, or from the Red Witch. The time-paradox involved may have resulted in some of the peculiar abilities in "that damned family" as Osiris remarked. Mostly in the offspring of Set and the Red Witch. But other than the peculiar nature of the timeloop involving Set and the Prince, and the obscure nature of the origins of the Red Witch, the family is supposedly of purely human extraction. > The most interesting of all, however, was the Steel General, who > seemed to have a power unrelated to machines, magic, or paranormal > abilities. It appeared that he was simply incapable of being > permanently destroyed, no matter what. This power was not related > to any instrumentality in particular, but instead to his adherence > to high ideals and ethical standards. Thus, there was always > someone willing to put him back together. But again, he was no god. In fact, his roots were traced back and the timeline of CoLaD is shown to be the future of our own timeline. The Steel General was involved in revolutions that occured in our own time. (Usually on the losing side.) > The point though, through the book, is no matter how they do > it,these beings are pretty much gods in the ancient sense. They > are powerful meddlers in the fate of nations and people, filled > with foibles and flaws. The ability and will to be a god is > something separate from any particular instrumentality or power. But this is is something that LoL has in COMMON with CoLaD, not something that separates the two books. Consider... oh, what was his name... Mumble the Black? The Parson of the Star of India? "Niritri", was it? That guy, anyhow. He had no mutant powers, no Aspect, no Attribute. Just good old fashioned bullets, missiles, and zombies. That is, there was no PARTICULAR road to godhead in LoL, you just joined the club if you had enough power. Similarly for CoLaD. Many of the Angels who served with the Prince had powers based only on technology. Anubis, Osiris, Madrak, Whoziz the Green, for examples. > The point about relevancy was that the characters in Lord of Light > are motivated by emotions and goals everyday people can relate to: > greed, envy, spite, lust for battle, compassion, love, hate, > friendship. The beings of Creatures of Light and Darkness seemed > much more remote to me, motivated by obscure compulsions and > mighty plans for the governance of the races and star systems. I > have to agree with Cleave on this one. Obscure compulsions, like the fact that Osiris was envious of Set's relationship with the Red Witch, and resented the fact that she was always ready to go back to Set if/when she could. Mighty plans motivated by greed for power and Anubis's spite of all the other Angels. And if Set doesn't have "lust for battle", then I don't know who does. And there is plenty of the rest too, "compassion, love, hate, friendship", (evil men, good men, giant men, miracles... uh, no, that's the Princess Bride, sorry... ahem) in CoLaD, if you only look. I dare you to read the scene where the Prince throws a stone into the ocean, and his wife (having lost her body ages ago in the last titanic battle against the Thing that Cries in the Night and finally given up in despair) doesn't throw it back, without crying. I double-dare you, nyeah! In short, I definitely have to DISagree with Cleave on this one. In fact, the two books LoL and CoLaD are very closely related in a peculiar sort of way. It is hard to find a quality that one has in a significant way and the other totally lacks. The essential difference is one of scale, LoL being closer to our own time and limited in scope to a single planet, while CoLaD is more remote, and has a much larger physical setting. Or to put it another way, LoL is much closer to our own level of technology than CoLaD. The civilization in LoL is still more-or-less a type-I civilization, as we are. But the implication is strong that the civilization in CoLaD, what with the Twelve Stations supporting that gargantuan energy field used to power the Hammer that Smashes Suns among other things, is at least type-II, though probably not type-III. (Type I civilizations use power levels that can be generated on a single planet, type II civilizations use power levels comparable to the total radiated energy output of a star, and type III civilizations use power levels comparable to the total radiated energy output of a galaxy. Niven's puppeteers, to give a quick contrast off the top of my head, seem to have recently acquired type-II status. The Tnuctpin/Slaver civilization at the time of the war may have been getting close to type-III (but not there yet).) Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 03:04:23 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes: >The Prince, a teleporter and Temporal Fugue master, based his >powers solely on these attributes and his native intelligence and >wisdom. I don't recall him ever using a machine at all in the >books. Horus was a telekinetic and telepath, as well as a fugue >artist. He didn't bother with machines either. I seem to recall that the Prince who was a Thousand used lasers and possibly x-ray devices in an attempt to destroy the Nameless. >The most interesting of all, however, was the Steel General, who >seemed to have a power unrelated to machines, magic, or paranormal >abilities. It appeared that he was simply incapable of being >permanently destroyed, no matter what. This power was not related >to any instrumentality in standards. Thus, there was always someone >willing to put him back together. The Steel General is the incarnation of revolutionary spirit. Therefore even if he were completely annihilated (have the Nameless beat him up, the remains flattened by the Hammer that Smashes Suns, and have the Prince's brother (I forget his name - the horse) stomp on him) some revolutionary could still bring him back. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 87 01:13:03 GMT From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works Damnation Alley was by Roger Zelazny. It exists as a novella (or novellette or whatever. I never did learn the distinction) and a novel. The shorter form is a lot tighter (not surprising). The movie was abysmal (maybe it wouldn't have been so bad if I hadn't read the stories first). In the story, the lead character is Hell Tanner, the last surviving member of a motorcycle gang. Not a nice person. In the movie, the lead character is also named Tanner, but he is a member of the SAC, or some such. Talk about polar opposites. And the movie ended in such a sicky sweet fashion. Bogus. Did Zelazny manage to get his name taken off of the credits? By the way, the landcars in the story could have taken the vehicle in the movie--no sweat. Although the movie vehicle was kind of neat. Each wheel consisted of three smaller wheels, arranged in a equilateral triangular configuration. It can be run on just one or two of the smaller wheels, like a regular car. The entire mechanism can rotate for improved off-road performance, or to make a kind of paddle-wheel. I remember seeing an article about a vehicle of this type in an old popular mechanics. Anyway, does anyone know if the movie vehicle was just a reworked concept car, or if anyone is actually making these? Oh. I liked the way the vehicle in the movie just happened to run across terrain that happened to exercise all of its capabilities. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 30 Mar 87 0859-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #115 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Mar 87 0859-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #115 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 30 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 115 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Mar 87 17:35:29 GMT From: drivax!holloway (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers") The last time a horror movie really had me clawing at the arm of the seat was when I saw "Alien". It's up there with the best science-fiction films for its special effects and attention to realism (no FTL travel here!). And the characters - they were real people! I'd never seen any of them (except John Hurt and Harry Dean Stanton) in any other film, so I had no preconceptions about them. It was fantastic, and it holds up viewing after viewing. One of the problems with "Aliens", already mentioned, is that we knew what was going to happen (closely enough) throughout the film, so the only really enjoyable part was watching the action and the special effects. The characters were a lot more heavily drawn, and lost a lot of their essential realism. ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 87 17:46:31 GMT From: madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim "Jack" Frost) Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers") holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes: >The last time a horror movie really had me clawing at the arm of >the seat was when I saw "Alien". It's up there with the best >science-fiction films for its special effects and attention to >realism (no FTL travel here!). Oh? Ten months of realtime travel between stars seems like FTL to me. (I believe the commander, whatever his name is, said that they had been awakened early and they were still "ten months" out.) They were certainly near an alien star. Now, how many light-months are we from our NEAREST star? (4.3*12 = 51.6 to Alpha Centauri, +/- a couple if I got the light year distance a little wrong). They *had* to be using FTL, or some technology that gives the same effect as FTL without actually exceeding lightspeed (eg Hyperspace [which is how it is described in the book], Space-folding/Warping, etc). Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ Date: Tue 10 Mar 1987 14:12 CST From: PHOENIX Subject: RE: ALIEN vs. ALIENS... I think everyone is missing the boat, by discussing how the 2 movies differ, and trying to classify the differences. What I thought was more interesting was what they had in common. Both movies assert that big business doesn't give a damn about people (eg. Ashe and his orders from mother, and the "yuppie" (who's name I forgot) who talks Ripley into going back). Another area of interest to me that the movies brought out was "What is evil anyway?" The aliens are doing what they do to survive and propogate. They are not killing because of hate or any such feelings (they dont know us well enough to hate us I assume). The humans fight back to stay alive ( a noble motive in my book ). The Mamma alien protects her young, just as Ripley protects Newt. I personally liked the second movie better...I don't like horror or suspense much, and I didn't feel like everybody in the second movie was stupid (I mean really...even with an android running around sabotaging everything, you'd still have thought some of the people would have made better decisions...). I liked Ripley confronting her fears and nightmares. I believe in dealing with your problems rather than running away from them. Doris Johnston ------------------------------ Date: Tue 10 Mar 1987 16:48 CST From: Darrell Johns Subject: Alien vs. Aliens rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) writes: >Ripley nearly loses her life at one point because she can't follow >the complicated instructions that are needed to undo the ship's >destruct mechanism. The reason Ripley couldn't undo the self destruct mechanism is because the countdown was past the "point of no return". She did follow all the instructions, but she was just too late. As to which movie was better, Aliens was much better than the first movie. The first movie had characters that were not believable and just plain stupid on top of that. The second movie had characters that showed a little intelligence. I would classify the first movie as a horror movie, no questions asked. The second movie was more of a science fiction movie with more plot and less gore, which is as it should be. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 87 20:39:41 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@rutgers.edu (The Cute Cuddle Creature) Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers") holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes: >The last time a horror movie really had me clawing at the arm of >the seat was when I saw "Alien". It's up there with the best >science-fiction films for its special effects and attention to >realism (no FTL travel here!). Umm, in the ending, didn't Ripley tell the diary-recorder (or whatever you want to call it) that she'd be back in the core systems in six months? Or maybe it was six weeks; it's been a while. Still, far too little time to not be FTL (unless you get into the 1/sqrt(1-v**2/c**2) equations). In _Aliens_, they DEFINITELY had FTL -- after the transport splattered all over the rocks, someone told someone else that the soonest help would come was 17 (or was it 14?) days. . . . Michael A. Justice BITNet:cscj0ac@bostonu CSNET: boreas%bucsb@bu-cs UUCP: harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas ARPA: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 87 17:47:32 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers") holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes: >One of the problems with "Aliens", already mentioned, is that we >knew what was going to happen (closely enough) throughout the film, >so the only really enjoyable part was watching the action and the >special effects. The characters were a lot more heavily drawn, and >lost a lot of their essential realism. Okay, so I'm a character nut. The only really enjoyable part... What about watching the characters change and grow through the events that take place? Too hokey, right? I particularly enjoyed watching Cpl. Hicks find his footing, and I thought the nasty guy (Burk?) was really good. The characters were more than formula, several of them with little looks and gestures that did more to set them apart than anything else. As everyone knows, I really loved this movie. But what I loved so much was the fact that I could believe in the characters, and I WANTED them to survive. I really prefer stories in which adventure/danger/disaster serves to define and strengthen the people involved. No soap opera - but a lot oomph. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 87 19:14:01 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers") madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes: >holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes: >>The last time a horror movie really had me clawing at the arm of >>the seat was when I saw "Alien". It's up there with the best >>science-fiction films for its special effects and attention to >>realism (no FTL travel here!). > >Oh? Ten months of realtime travel between stars seems like FTL to >me. (I believe the commander, whatever his name is, said that they >had been awakened early and they were still "ten months" out.) >They were certainly near an alien star. Now, how many light-months >are we from our NEAREST star? (4.3*12 = 51.6 to Alpha Centauri, >+/- a couple if I got the light year distance a little wrong). >They *had* to be using FTL, or some technology that gives the same >effect as FTL without actually exceeding lightspeed (eg Hyperspace >[which is how it is described in the book], Space-folding/Warping, >etc). I've not read the books, but I just watched "Alien" the other night and saw no mention of any sort of FTL drive, except for the ten months it'd take to travel to Earth from where they were. What if they were moving at a significant fraction of the speed of light? Ten months for them might mean some tens of years "real time", and possibly some number of light years out. "Aliens" contradicts this somewhat, by saying that she was asleep for fifty years. But then, the shuttle she was stashed on was never advertised as being very fast... If she'd been asleep for fifty years, whether on FTL drive or just Epsilon-C drive, she'd be well out of range of everything. BTW - can you really trust a novelization written by Alan Dean Foster? {seismo,hplabs,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 87 09:06:34 GMT From: spr@miro.Berkeley.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers") boreas@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (The Cute Cuddle Creature) writes: >holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes: >>The last time a horror movie really had me clawing at the arm of >>the seat was when I saw "Alien". It's up there with the best >>science-fiction films for its special effects and attention to >>realism (no FTL travel here!). >Umm, in the ending, didn't Ripley tell the diary-recorder (or >whatever you want to call it) that she'd be back in the core >systems in six months? Or maybe it was six weeks; it's been a >while. Still, far too little time to not be FTL (unless you get >into the 1/sqrt(1-v**2/c**2) equations). With any luck, she'd be picked up by the network in six weeks >In _Aliens_, they DEFINITELY had FTL -- after the transport >splattered all over the rocks, someone told someone else that the >soonest help would come was 17 (or was it 14?) days. . . . Not only that, but also sub-space communication since they lost contact with the colony pretty quick. By the way, they REALLY changed that planet, since the moons and rings disappeared, or was LV-426 a moon of that nifty planet with the rings? Sean Rouse ARPA: spr@miro.berkeley.edu UUCP: ...ucbvax!miro!spr USnail: 2299 Piedmont Ave #315, Berkeley, Ca 94720 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 87 07:58:17 GMT From: 6085419@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (James Kawashima) Subject: Re: Alien vs. Aliens > As to which movie was better, Aliens was much better than the >first movie. The first movie had characters that were not >believable and just plain stupid on top of that. The second movie >had characters that showed a little intelligence. Indeed, and how would you support this? I found the characters in the first film to be more believable because they were more human, reacting as one might expect one to act under the pressure of facing a threat of unknown powers and proportions. The characters in the second film did not have as much time to interact because they were faced with the non-stop threat of action-seeking James Cameron's creations ( a director who I respect for his ability to thrill the public, AND his willingness to admit his commercial motivations). ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 87 20:19:27 GMT From: sq!hobie@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Alien vs. Aliens XDWJ@ECNCDC.BITNET writes: > As to which movie was better, Aliens was much better than the >first movie. The first movie had characters that were not >believable and just plain stupid on top of that. The second movie >had characters that showed a little intelligence. becky (becky@sq.UUCP) writes: >The crew members of the first movie >were constantly making errors like that - it was silly. What is so unbelievable, stupid and silly about people making misktakes? One of the most attractive things about Alien, to me at least, is the depiction of future space travel as so routine and ordinary that you don't have to be a genius or superhuman to do it. The crew of the Nostromo are tomorrow's equivalent of today's merchant marine, not test pilots, scientists and air force colonels that dominate today's astronaut corps. Is it so unreasonable that these people would disregard regulations, do stupid things and make mistakes? Besides, the person responsible for letting the contaminated crewmember in, Becky, was Ash the android. He did it against the orders of Ripley (Sigourney Weaver) FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE of contaminating the crew. It was a calculated act (to the tenth decimal place). There were other actions that the crew took which are, in hindsight, mistakes. Such as Dallas hunting the alien in the ventilation tunnels. Remember, he was not a xenobiologist, big game hunter or commando. Just brave and maybe a little desperate. Does this make his character less believable? I don't think so. Perhaps what is bothering those who found the Nostromo crewmembers unbelievable is that they can't believe that star ship officers can be cursing, cigarette-smoking, slovenly, stupid and badly-dressed. There are some who prefer their science-fiction more on the squeaky-clean side :-) Hobie Orris SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Ont. {ihnp4 | decvax | ? }!utzoo!sq!hobie ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 87 09:28:03 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: ALIEN/ALIENS From: drivax!holloway (Bruce Holloway) > One of the problems with "Aliens", already mentioned, is that we > knew what was going to happen (closely enough) throughout the > film, so the only really enjoyable part was watching the action > and the special effects. The characters were a lot more heavily > drawn, and lost a lot of their essential realism. Hmmm... I must be a mutant. Am I the only person who cares less about what happens than *how* it happens? I'm more interested in the trip than in the destination. > I've not read the books, but I just watched "Alien" the other > night and saw no mention of any sort of FTL drive, except for the > ten months it'd take to travel to Earth from where they were. > > What if they were moving at a significant fraction of the speed of > light? Ten months for them might mean some tens of years "real > time", and possibly some number of light years out. Actually, if you listen closely, you'll hear Lambert (Veronica Cartwright) state that the system they arrive in is "just short of Zeta II Reticuli", which is roughly 30 light years from Earth. Yes, the 10 months might be *subjective* time, but why does the absence of specific references to FTL mean that they don't have it? It just as easy to assume that they *do*. From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas (Michael A. Justice) > Umm, in the ending, didn't Ripley tell the diary-recorder (or > whatever you want to call it) that she'd be back in the core > systems in six months? Or maybe it was six weeks; it's been a > while.... Actually, no. What she says is that she'll reach the *frontier* in six weeks. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 13:34:27 GMT From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers") holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes: >"Aliens" contradicts this somewhat, by saying that she was asleep >for fifty years. But then, the shuttle she was stashed on was never >advertised as being very fast... If she'd been asleep for fifty >years, whether on FTL drive or just Epsilon-C drive, she'd be well >out of range of everything. It also doesn't say that the shuttle was headed for Earth, or was picked up near Earth. The shuttle was out for 50 years, but that is NOT the amount of time it took to get to Earth. That was the amount of time it took to get to WHEREVER she was when the ship picked her up. The shuttle, I believe, was HEADED for Earth, as I seem to remember Ripley programming its course before she headed for the sleeper. It may have been going very slow. It matters not one whit. The speed of the shuttle and the amount of time it was out before it was picked up is totally independent from any calculations regarding the distance to the planet on which they discovered the alien. Sean Huxter 235 Blackmarsh Rd. Apt 420, St. John's NF, Canada UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1 CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 30 Mar 87 0916-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #116 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Mar 87 0916-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #116 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 30 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 116 Today's Topics: Books - Robert Adams & Brust & David & DeCamp & Eddings & Elgin & Garrett & Gregorian & Herbert & Hohlbein & Martin & Palmer & Shwartz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1987 13:20 EDT From: Bruce Subject: Post-Holocaust Books One series no one has mentioned is the Horseclans by Adams. Not great literature, granted, but somewhat fun to read. Aside from the occasional psi power (and one weird life-after-death sequence from Champion of the Last Battle), this fits into the SF mold, rather than heavy fantasy, like some of the "mutant stories." Warnings for those who have not read Horseclans: This series, for many readers, is comparable in tackiness to Gor. Grue, violent sex, and cardboard characters. The evil guys are usually completely evil and strange in every respect. Adams is very heavy- handed with his morals and themes. Also, several of the books (I don't remember specific titles) contain whole sections of previous books in the series. Adams also is the master of the flashback-within-flashback- within-flashback form of writing, where a character remembers something from long ago, and then the event itself includes the character remembering something from long ago, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Still, the series has a lot of action and some fun ideas. Several times I've given it just one more chance, and then liked the new volume enough to get the next. Still, Horseclans is not for everyone (possibly even most). ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 87 19:25:10 GMT From: utai!morenz@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla What I am about to do is attempt to remember what Brust said last year at AD ASTRA, corrections /additions welcomed. The two populations are indeed related, they come from a common genetic pool, but long since. There are definite connections and inter-relaionships in the stories that have been worked out, but he hasn't told us.. as an example he cited something from his Fairytale (his term) Brokedown Palace.. it apparently is placed on the same world and some character from there who wanders off spawns offspring.. blah blah - there was some kind of connection which I don't remember anything about since I hadn't read BP so I couldn't follow it at the time. Anyhow it connected to either Vlad or Cawti. (Cawti I think I sem to recall a lost daughter or something -anyone?-) He went on to discuss background that he has concocted, which helps him figure out his plots, but may never see print. I agree that Tekla was the better book, and I believe that things will improve, even if he jumps about in time. Hmm, guess I don't really remember much , but my impression was that its pretty well fleshed out in his head. P.S. Brust is probably not out there since he gave up his job as a systems analyst to write full time. Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.UUCP gpu.utcs.toronto.edu ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 87 22:53:40 GMT From: osu-eddie!francis@rutgers.edu (RD Francis) Subject: Knight Life, by Peter David Knight Life, a book by Peter David KNIGHT LIFE is a vastly amusing book, written by a very good author. Though this is his first book, comic book fans should recognize him as a writer who brought life to some rather old boring characters. With a rep like that, who shall we take on? How about none other than one of the oldest fictional characters around who is still written about today: King Arthur? ***WARNING: some spoilers may follow, though I will keep them to a minimum King arthur, the once and future king, is back. As he is destined to be in a position of power, coming back in the 20th century leaves two major choices: be in charge of the USSR, or the USA. For reasons mainly left unsaid, but probably related to Arthur's background and A desire to be relatively swift in this rise to power, the USA is chosen. Of course, you can't just come in from nowhere and run for president; you need to get into the political machine by steps. What better first step than being elected mayor of New York? This book is quite funny; it reminds me, in places, of Robert Asprin's Mythadventures series. A lot of the humor is due to Arthur's partial knowledge of the USA in the 1900's; he's kept up admirably with world events for someone who's been locked up in a cave for the past dozen centuries or so, but his knowledge is far from perfect, and his naivete provides a number of laughs. Of course, his retinue only adds to the humor; Merlin as an eight-year-old kid in jeans and a T-shirt? Morgan Le Fey as a fat, dumpy broad who spends lots of time watching "Gilligan's Island" reruns? I refuse to say more, as I have only so far ruined the first chapter, and that only slightly. Suffice it to say that history repeats itself in many ways, and that, in the end, Arthur faces his deadliest enemy, sword in hand, sure death approaching -- and doesn't avoid it nearly as well as you might think. Does he die? I ain't telling! If you enjoy humor, if you think politics is a ridiculously complex business, if you think politicians never speak plainly, if you're a King Arthur fan, or if you're anything else, I encourage you to buy this book and read it. Oh, yes; you might want to make sure you have a little free time available, too. While it's not a long book, it's the first book I have read in a long time, if ever, that I finished within 3 1/2 hours of when I bought it. It's that good. R David Francis francis@ohio-state.UUCP cbosgd!ohio-state!francis ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 87 02:12:43 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: WALL OF SERPENTS From: batcomputer!cpf (Courtenay Footman) > Compleat Enchanter is easy to find; it has been reprinted many > times. On the other hand, Wall of Serpents is almost impossible > to find. I believe that there was only one edition; certainly no > more than two....Apparantly the book is trapped in some legal > limbo. I would appreciate it if anyone could provide more precise > information. There has been at least three editions of WALL OF SERPENTS: (1) Avalon Books, 1960 (2) Phantasia Press, 1978 [small press limited edition] (3) Dell Books, 1979 [paperback] --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1987 15:20 EDT From: bructemplevm Subject: eddings In response to the "everyone who has read Eddings likes him," let me say: Not everyone. I found the Belgariad mildly amusing and at best a mild distraction masquerading as something more. The characters were stock and the plot forced. I thought "guided tour" fantasy went out of style some time ago, at least I had hoped so. Nothing really new was said, and there was not much tension. Everything turned out pretty much as expected from the very beginning. Basically, I was very disappointed. Eddings seems to be a good writer, with a sense of description and setting but only a loose grip on most of the other tools of storytelling. I may still pick up the first book in his new series, just to see if his invention and characterizations have caught up to his writing skill. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 87 16:35:55 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: RE: series >-- Elgin, Suzette Hadin Ozark Trilogy, and Coyote Jones series >recently combined with her book "The End of the Matter" (? title) >Ozark: Twelve Fair Kingdoms, The Grand Jubilee, And Then There'll >be Fireworks Jones: 4 books, one is, Star Anchored, Star Angered (5 >with The_End_of_the_Matter) The other Jones books are The Communipaths, Furthest, At the Seventh Level. The combining book is titled "Yonder Comes the Other End of Time". Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 11:55:39 GMT From: swb@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Scott Brim) Subject: Re: Gandalara VII The dedication of the last book is "To Randall -- I hope I have done well -- Vicki". I was also a bit disappointed in the last book. It was good to start with but as I read it was clear she was trying to tie up a whole bunch of loose ends rather quickly. Too many things just coincidentally happened to fall into place, and too suddenly. I'd say the main reason I was disappointed was that I thought the previous ones had been quite good. Scott ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 23:57:51 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Tredana Trilogy Joyce Ballou Gregorian's trilogy, which began with "The Broken Citadel" and "Castledown", has been finished, over a decade after its inception in "The Great Wheel". It looks as though the author had a lot of fun writing it. I had fun reading it. Those who enjoyed the earlier books will not be disappointed in this one. Those who did not should probably read the others first, though "The Great Wheel" can stand on its own. They're worth trying. *Minor Spoiler* If the author is planning to write any more books placed in Tredana, she'll have a restocking job ahead of her: in the third book of her trilogy she kills her characters off with abandon. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 06:58:48 GMT From: stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) Subject: Dune & Norstrillia (was Re: CHROME) Peter Silverman (ihnp4!beehive!pjs1) writes: > (By the way, I have always wanted to know if Frank Herbert got > some of his ideas for Dune from Cordwainer Smith's book > "Nostrillia", the plots if not the tone of the two books are > similiar-- but this question should be for another news group.) I was struck by the similarity myself. In fact, I once thought it would be a nice assignment for an SF Literature course to compare (and contrast) the two books. The inhabitants of both planets (the recent arrivals in the case of Dune, not the natives) were both more or less forcibly expelled from their previous planet, they both produce a life-prolonging substance from unique flora or fauna, they both have extremely dangerous fauna which serve to protect the planet (Mother Hitton's Littel Kittons?), they are both (natives of Dune, here) incredibly canny strategists and defend themselves viciously, they both live in a galaxy with a more or less amoral ruling oligarchy, etc, etc, etc. Not parallels, by any means, but quite interesting similiarities. The planet and people of Dune are much closer to those of Nostrillia than, say, Dorsai. By the way, I was quite amused to note that the movie "Dune" has been re-released for the home video market. This release is over THREE TIMES AS LONG as the North American theater release. I am tempted to pester a friend into getting it just to see if it makes any better sense. Stu Friedberg {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart stuart@cs.rochester.edu ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 87 12:20:17 GMT From: clunk!don@rutgers.edu (Don McKillican) Subject: Wolfgang Hohlbein information request I recently made a trip to Germany, and while I was there I spent some time looking for German SF&F. I managed to find a few things, one of them a book called "Die Brennende Stadt" (The Burning City) by Wolfgang Hohlbein, being the first book of (what else?) a trilogy called "Der Stein der Macht" (The Stone of Power). I was quite impressed with the book: Hohlbein has a very strong sense of physical immediacy -- when he is describing a long trek in the winter I found myself almost shivering vicariously (didn't help that I wasn't prepared for the cold weather in Germany either :-)). And there are probably very few writers in English who could describe a firestorm with as much authority. He also starts the novel in the middle of his story very effectively (I was wondering for the first twenty pages whether I had picked up volume 2 by mistake!), and thereafter plays the game of switching back and forth between present and past, leaving me grinding my teeth in frustration every time he switched. Quite a good novel all round, in fact. (No, I have no idea whether it's been translated) But a question: the cover blurb seems to imply that this is not the first novel Hohlbein has written in the "Enwor" universe. Can anyone, in Germany or elsewhere, tell me what the order of the other Enwor books is? Pointers to other good German SF&F would also be much appreciated. Thanks, Don McKillican seismo!mnetor!genat!clunk!don {utgpu,utai,utzoo,watmath}!lsuc!clunk!don ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 87 18:05:57 GMT From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Nightflyers -- George R. R. Martin I just recently bought an anthalogy of stories by George R. R. Martin called Nightflyers. (after having waited for the paperback because the thing contains only 2 stories not in his earlier collections, or other anthologies) The cover says "Soon to be a Major Motion Picture". I assume they are refering to the title story "Nightflyers". Does anyone know anything about this? The story, incidentally, is excellent, and should make a good movies if they get a decent script writer. It's short enough that they should be able to get it into a two hour movie without butchering it, and doesn't have a lot of background that has to be explained to the audience before getting into the meat of the plot. If they do it justice, it will definitely not be a movie for the faint of heart or weak of stomach to see. Should have some interesting special effects too, as a lot of the action takes place in zero G. Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy ARPANET: kathy@LL-XN.ARPA or kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 87 19:38 EST From: nj (Who?) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #111 > David R. Palmer. > _Emergence_ > _Threshold_ Whoops! You misread my letter. _Threshold_ is entirely unrelated to _Emergence_--it's not post-holocaust at all--and, in my opinion, is vastly inferior. BTW, as an aside about post-holocaust: I've never read _The Time Machine_, though I vaguely remember watching the movie. Does that count as post-holocaust in that the narrator goes into the future past the holocaust? Or was there supposedly a holocaust at all? nj ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 15:54:44 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: Byzantium's Crown ** mild spoilers ** This is a new Questar book, written by Susan Shwartz, with a cover by Rowena, who really should have read the book first. It is another alternative history, with the premise that the Battle of Actium (Spengler's favourite turning point, and one of mine too) went the other way. Some time later, Byzantine Prince Marric, sold into slavery by his usurping stepmother Irene, tries to regain his throne, with the help of Stephana, "a silver haired slave girl of awesome powers" - and, incidentally, one of the best characters in the book. Very little of the history since Actium is given, but we have Varaingians, Huns, Arabs who yell "there is no god but god" and wave green flags, so some centuries have passed. Centuries, moreover, with negligible scientific or technical progress. I found this a reasonable adventure yarn, with fewer bloopers than usual (pirates sailing dromons? cotton from India? theatrical performances in the Hippodrome?) and some understanding of the period. Correctly labelled 'Fantasy'. ISBN 0-445-20356-9. Watch out for the crocodiles. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 30 Mar 87 1100-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #117 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Mar 87 1100-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #117 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 30 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 117 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Fanzines & Decompression & Stardrives & Convention List & Whither Short SF? (3 msgs) & Back Cover Blurbs (3 msgs) & Time Travel (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 11:10 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Fanzines Cc: 6103014@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Harold Feld), Cc: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Media fanzines number in the hundreds. For information on ones currently for sale and/or soliciting contributions, I recommend a fanzine on fanzines: Datazine; P.O. Box 19413; Denver, CO 80219. I think they're bimonthly. I have no affiliation with them, by the way. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 87 18:38:51 GMT From: bayes@hpfcrj.HP.COM (Scott Bayes) Subject: Re: What gets you first ? Breathing vacuum: Archur Clarke's _Earthlight_ (go ahead, flame me, I probably got it wrong) contains one of the classic "vacuum-breathing" scenes, an airlock-to-airlock transfer in deep space. Scott Bayes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 87 21:38:11 EST From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) Subject: Stardrive impossibility again I guess someone should just post something like the following regularly, since the stardrive discussion is perennial: Under the laws of *modern* physics (including QED, QCD, etc.), FTL is impossible. No matter how you try -- tunneling, uncertainty, or just revving your engines real hard, you can't do it. This is not because of the dilation equations, this is a fundamental result predicated on causality and relativity. The phenomenon is technically known as "Einsteinian Locality". The above paragraph does not mean that FTL is impossible, it means you can't consistently argue that FTL is possible given current physical notions. Therefore, when reading SF involving FTL, I am far happier to discover that "current" physics has revolutionized the theory than to read some half-assed explanation of how the drive actually works (three opposing forces on a gyroscope, give me a break....). In other words, I am willing to suspend my disbelief, since it is POSSIBLE that there is another more "correct" physical theory that would allow FTL. I am not willing to shatter my belief, since I know that present theory cannot allow FTL. Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 87 9:34:35 CST From: Rich Zellich Cc: ltsmith@MITRE.ARPA Subject: Re: Anyone have a list of cons? [SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #112] Boy, is there a list of cons! For the last several years (> 5), I have been maintaining a public list of SF/fantasy conventions for the Internet users. The file is updated on a day-to-day basis, and the up-to-date version is always available for FTP. Additionally, after major updates, I post an update-notice to the net, including to the SF-LOVERS digest. The most recent major update was in the last 30 days. You can FTP it from host SRI-NIC.ARPA, file CONS.TXT - SRI-NIC supports ANONYMOUS FTP login with any password. Those internet users who don't have direct ARPANet/MilNet FTP access can get it by return mail by sending a request to ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA. There is a mailing-list for update-notices, and a second one for those who can't FTP the file - the second list gets both the broadcast update-notice message and the entire file in a following message. The file is currenly about 30 printed pages long, when formatted for page breaks at about 60 lines per page. It is world-wide, not just USA, and the front of the file contains a geographic cross-reference (by date, listing city but not con-name, within alphabetic country or state); the remainder of the file is by date, with cons on the same dates listed alphabetically by con-name. Enjoy, Rich ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 87 16:26:34 PST From: LAMONTS%SDS.SDSCNET@nmfecc.arpa Subject: Epic multivolume series. I've been observing the dialog on this net for about 6 months or so and notice that the preponderence of the postings are with regard to the multivolume epic octologies ( is that a word?? ) that seem to fill the shelves of the SF sections of most book stores. While not disparaging anyone's taste or judgement, I must say that the majority of these grand sagas turn out to be quite disappointing. This may be simply because I haven't found the right one yet, but I don't think it is because I haven't tried. What I'm getting at is this: doesn't anyone write (or publish) SHORT S-F any longer? When I got "into" reading S-F, many moons ago, the field was dominated by anthologies of short stories. Now it is rare to find a single anthology on the shelves that isn't one of the "Six Great SF Yarns of the Thirties" genre. I know that it is being written, since Asimov's (yawn), F & SF, and Analog, to mention the biggies, are still to be found. Why has this come to pass? Is there more money in getting the suckers hooked on a seventeen volume epic, the plot line of which is likely pinched from Celtic mythology, than there is in publishing tight, well crafted short fiction. Someone (maybe it was PT Barnum, though I may be wrong) once said (I paraphrase) that if you can't write your idea on the back of my business card, you haven't got much of an idea. Es verdad?? spl ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 23:18:29 GMT From: gouvea@huma1.HARVARD.EDU (Fernando Gouvea) Subject: Re: Epic multivolume series. Alas, it seems to be getting harder and harder to get publishers to even look at books of short stories. To my mind, there's still quite a lot of good short sf being written, but the trend is toward there being less and less of it. The authors themselves, once established, end up avoiding short stories, because there's so little market for them. Important books like Gene Wolfe's "The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and other stories" of Karen Fowler's "Artificial Things" never get hardcover editions, and even in paperback are hard to find. The original anthologies, which broke so much important ground in the seventies, are nearly all dead; the only exception that comes to mind is Terry Carr's "Universe" series, and even that can only be bought by mail or at specialized bookstores. Why don't today's fans like short stories? With writers like Lucius Shepard, Kim Stanley Robinson, and Connie Willis still writing short stories, there is no lack of good stories. Short sf is still where trends are set, where the boundaries of the field are pushed back. The Dozois "Best of the Year" volumes are probably the best way to follow what is happening, aesthetically, in sf. I don't understand why people aren't interested. To finish with recommendations: the Dozois "Best of the Year" book should be out next month; "Universe 17" in July. Highly recommended: Robinson's "The Planet on the Table", Fowler's "Artificial Things", Bishop's "Close Encounters with the Deity", Wolfe's "Book of Days" and "Island of Doctor Death", Tanith Lee's recent collection from Arkham house, Russ's "The Zanzibar Cat", Connie Willis's "Fire Watch", George R. R. Martin's "Tuf Voyaging". Short sf is still vital; it just needs more of an audience. Fernando Q. Gouvea Department of Mathematics 1 Oxford Street Cambridge, MA 02138 gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA gouvea@harvma1.BITNET ...!harvard!huma1!gouvea ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 87 07:13:07 GMT From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Re: Epic multivolume series. It is by no means true that the short story is dead in SF; in fact, it is far easier to get a short story published (for money) in SF than in Li-Fi. What is rare is for a writer with no published novel to publish a book of short stories. But Connie Willis and Karen Joy Fowler have both done this recently. What really bothers me is that Lucius Shepard's short stuff is not being collected into paperback volumes nearly fast enough. Oh, sure, every anthology published today has a Shepard story in it, but I want a volume of ten-to-twelve stories by LS himself. (_The Jaguar Hunter_, due out any day from Arkham, will only have 3 novellas, and I think they're going to be strung together into a novel-like sequence.) The reasons that short stories are doing best in Shared Universe Anthologies (which are a quite noticable percentage of Fantasy, and a growing percent of science fiction, books) is the same as the preponderence of novel series: people like reading more stories about characters they like, especially by authors whom they enjoy. Don't despair. Buy the digests if you want short stories; that's where things are really at, these days. Kevin J. Maroney mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 03:44:46 GMT From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.edu Subject: Back cover writers marlinw@tekchips.UUCP (Marlin Wilson) writes: >I didn't associate the back cover with the story -- 'most >chilling'? Back-cover-writers get paid to get you to buy the book. Yuk. They're doing a singularly lousy job of it. Is there any reason authors don't write their own back covers? That way, we could tell what the book's about without reading the first chapter. I'd buy more books if I could get a vaguely reliable summary. Has anyone seen a Science Fiction (Aside: I like `sci-fi' because it's marginally easier to say back cover blurb that didn't contain one (or more) of the following: `Thrilling' `Suspenseful' `Mission' `Save the {world,human race,future,etc.}' `Hair-raising' `!' Colin Plumb watmath!watnot!ccplumb ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 13:16:22 GMT From: obnoxio@brahms (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Subject: Re: Back cover writers >>Back-cover-writers get paid to get you to buy the book. > >Yuk. They're doing a singularly lousy job of it. Some of my friends read a lot of science fiction. I like to grab one of the books they're in the midst of, and then read the blurbs out loud with full dramatic relish, and then give the book back. It's lots of fun. (I can tell when they're not at a major juncture. I may be obnoxious, but I do have friends. And it's a lot more amusing in person than it may sound.) Matthew P Wiener Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 23:16:30 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Back cover writers (Was: The Adolescence of P1) ccplumb@watnot.UUCP (Colin Plumb) writes: >marlinw@tekchips.UUCP (Marlin Wilson) writes: >>I didn't associate the back cover with the story -- 'most >>chilling'? Back-cover-writers get paid to get you to buy the >>book. > >Yuk. They're doing a singularly lousy job of it. Is there any >reason authors don't write their own back covers? That way, we >could tell what the book's about without reading the first chapter. >I'd buy more books if I could get a vaguely reliable summary. My most "chilling" example of this particular yuckiness: The back cover of CJCherryh's HUNTER OF WORLDS. Something about Aiela (sp? -the main character) being forcibly mind-linked with TWO OTHER HUMANS. In the book, not only is Aiela himself not human, but only one of the two people he is mind-linked to is human. But, you see, the cover blurb would have been too CONFUSING for the bookstore browser... Ugh. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 87 11:47:23 CST From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi) Subject: Re: Time Travel (Does anyone have the time?) I've had all I can stands and I can't stands no more! Time travel where one retruns to the past is the purest form of fantasy. Any story about time travel should be called, by definition, Fantasy (Re: What's the big difference between science fiction and fantasy). mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu writes: >The reason velocity is defined the way it is is because time is >viewed to be unrelated to distance.... Time IS unrelated to distance. However, according to special relativity, time is indeed a function of velocity (relative velocity, to be precise). Thus one may "travel" forward in time by travelling in space with respect to a given frame of reference. As you approach the speed of light, a relatively stationary observer would see you (and your watch) stop. The observer would also see your mass approach infinity. Since you can't get more massive than infinitely massive, the best you can hope to do is to make time stop in your frame of reference and thus travel infinitely into the future (again, relative to the observer). ellis@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk writes: >For example, quantum dynamics allows a particle, an antiparticle >and a photon to appear from nowhere, exist for a short time, and >disappear again. Where does the energy discrepancy come from ? The >answer is there is none. The energy of the local system is balanced >by a loss in energy later on This is a virtual phenomenom that is predicted by quantum theory but cannot be observed. In other words, it's not real; it's an interesting artifact of the mathematics of quantum theory (see Feynman diagrams). >... a particle moving forward in time is exactly analagous to its >antiparticle moving backwards in time, and so the whole system can >be seen as a closed loop of mass energy chasing its own tail in >time. Again, this is an artifact of the mathematics (put a minus sign in the time components of equations that describe a particle and you get the anti-particle. Do it again and you're back to the original particle.). Anti-particles move forward in time just like their particle counterparts. The names "particle" and "anti-particle" are really naming conventions used to distinguish equal but opposite characteristics of particles. I must cut this posting short because I have to ride my flying dragon through the eye of a needle so I can get to the teleportation booth before it closes and go to Andromeda before midnight or else I'll turn into a pumpkin and spontaneously burst into flames. (By the way, I enjoy a good time travel yarn for the very reason that one can have a lot of fun with all the paradox's involved.) Marco Barbarisi marco@ncsc.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 14:04:14 GMT From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Time travel and energy I have been following the discussion on Time Travel and am not sure what to think about moving the same matter to different times. Time travel is, essentially, moving matter through time. Now the argument is whether or not this is violating the Matter Conservation Law. One view is that the Universe is the domain of the Law, and the Universe is 4 dimensional (at least) and that moving the matter from one time to another is no more violating the law than if you move matter from one PLACE to another. It is just another axis on the 4d grid. Well, my addition to this is: Can you move matter through time to a place where this matter already exists? Putting the same matter in more than one place at the same time is just as possible as putting the same matter in more than one time in the same place. Can you put the same matter in more than one time in the same place? Sure. You are now, where you were sitting 10 seconds ago. You have been in the same place for at least two distinct times. The sentence means the same if you say 'Can you put the same matter in the same place in more than one time?'. And dat's de ticket! Sean Huxter 235 Blackmarsh Rd. Apt 420, St. John's NF, Canada UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1 CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 30 Mar 87 1121-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #118 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Mar 87 1121-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #118 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 30 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 118 Today's Topics: Books - Koontz (2 msgs) & Lafferty (2 msgs) & L'Engle (2 msgs) & Rand (2 msgs) & Rosenberg & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Zelazny & Post Holocaust Works ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1987 16:07 EDT From: Bruce Subject: Dean Koontz The listing of 1986 bestsellers jogged a memory... Dean Koontz's "Strangers" was listed, and not long ago (net time) there was a question about Koontz (what's he doing now, why hasn't he done any SF lately, etc). Well, Koontz wrote a book for Writer's Digest not long ago called "Writing Bestselling Fiction" or some such. Generally a very cogent, useful effort. But in it he writes frequently and at some length about his "escape" from the "ghetto" of SF. Apparently, he now considers himself a "mainstream" writer, and much the better for freeing himself of the chains of SF. He seemed deadly serious. The whole part of the book on "literary ghettos" (such as romance, SF, adventure, etc) had me laughing out loud, for while Koontz writes long and vociferously about being "free" he has also actually chained himself into just another "ghetto," that of the psychological horror. Anyway, I suspect that we won't be seeing anymore of Bink and his minidrag Pip, or whatever the stories were that Koontz wrote. In the final analysis, I suspect that he found he could be much better paid in his new "ghetto" and thus feels that he is now writing "literature." ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 22:48:41 GMT From: uwmacc!oyster@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Dean Koontz ** SPOILER WARNING ** BRUCE@TEMPLEVM.BITNET writes: >The listing of 1986 bestsellers jogged a memory... Dean Koontz's >"Strangers" was listed... >But in it [an article about writing] he writes frequently and at >some length about his "escape" from the "ghetto" of SF. >Apparently, he now considers himself a "mainstream" writer, and >much the better for freeing himself of the chains of SF. He seemed >deadly serious. That's kind of funny, adding to it my private assessment of _Strangers_, which I read a couple weeks ago. I though it was generally a good read, better stylistically than King, with few of those "rough" spots I expect to find in any of King's books (with the possible exception of _Different Seasons_). However, it had a major problem, which I found disappointing, though not enough to distract from the overall readability (how's that for waffling? :-). It started out as a nice, creepy, horror novel, turned into another mainstream-type "the evil government/scientists/commies/" thriller, and then ended up as a goshwow (see what one learns reading sf-lovers? :-) alien contact story. Each of the first two separate pieces was good, though they hung together a bit awkwardly. The SF ending, though, was severely lacking in just about everything that makes good SF good-- it was just a surface treatment of a realization that Things Might Change. That was it; the story's over. It left me wanting to know the ramifications of the contact. It also left me thinking he wouldn't be able to write good SF, and was merely pandering to the mainstream acceptance of a few SFish plot devices. I did, however, like the book enough to give a try to another of his horror efforts; I just picked up _Phantom_ today. Joel Plutchak uucp: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster ARPA: oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu BITNET: plutchak@wiscmacc ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 17:16:49 GMT From: gouvea@huma1.HARVARD.EDU (Fernando Gouvea) Subject: Re: R A Lafferty Chris Drumm has published both a checklist of Lafferty's work and several inexpensive booklets with previously unpublished stories. There is also a booklet of essays, most originally published in an Italian fanzine. He is now in the process of publishing a series of novels by Lafferty; they will be published as a (very large) set of booklets. I don't have the adress handy right now, but the latest issue of F&SF has a Budrys review of Drumm's latest booklet (not by Lafferty), from which one can get the address; I can also post the address if there's enough demand: drop me a note. Fernando Q. Gouvea Department of Mathematics 1 Oxford Street Cambridge, MA 02138 gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA gouvea@harvma1.BITNET harvard!huma1!gouvea ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 23:34:46 GMT From: gouvea@huma1.HARVARD.EDU (Fernando Gouvea) Subject: Re: R A Lafferty As I mentioned in my previous posting, Chris Drumm ("the man who made booklets") has published checklists of the works of several authors, notably Lafferty, and has also published several booklets of short stories by Lafferty. He is now in the course of publishing a series of novels by Lafferty, still in the booklet form (it's going to take a lot of booklets...). These are very inexpensive, but well-made; there are also signed collector's editions of some of the booklets. His address is: Chris Drumm books P. O. Box 445 Polk City, Iowa 50226. He'll send catalogs on request (he also sells used and new sf books). Fernando Q. Gouvea Department of Mathematics 1 Oxford Street Cambridge, MA 02138 gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA gouvea@harvma1.BITNET harvard!huma1!gouvea ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 28 Mar 1987 08:35:11-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Madeleine L'Engle > From: Gellerman.osbunorth@Xerox.COM (Scott Gellerman) > "A Wrinkle In Time" is the first book in her Time Trilogy. The > second book is "A Wind in the Door", and the final book is "A > Swiftly Tilting Planet." Each book is separable and can be read > on its own. The characters grow older and develop nicely > throughout the series.... The big problem I had with the second and third books in the series is that they are *too* independent of each other and A WRINKLE IN TIME. In each one, the children are so totally astounded that strange things are happening to them that you'd think that nothing strange had ever happened to them before. Neither one refers to the previous book(s) at all. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 87 18:23:18 GMT From: utai!morenz@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Madeleine L'Engle Here ! Here ! It's a shame that publishers (actually adults in general) make many assumptions about what children will/not understand that prove to be wildly erroneous or a gross oversimplification - I have seen too many examples (in my years as a swimming instructor) of adults treating kids as kids instead of attempting to deal with them as people. The small ones are getting surprisingly bright at an earlier age every year. Has anyone out there ever noted that small (people-aliens-magical beings) tend to be viewed as childlike (I'm generalizing a bit - I know) and' less intelligent as a rule? Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.UUCP gpu.utcs.toronto.edu ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 87 15:31:43 GMT From: obnoxio@brahms (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Subject: Re: Ayn Rand KFL@MX writes: >Even if you don't agree with her philosophy of Objectivism, her >books will really shake up your thought patterns, which is after >all what SF is FOR, anyway. The only shake up that occurred in my thought patterns while reading the book was when flying home on a plane, about 70% through the book, and I spied the headlines on other people's newspapers that referred to Mexico nationalizing its banks. I kept thinking "Oh no, the People's Republic of Mexico has nationalized its banks." That shake up didn't last long. The real shake up occurred years later when I learned that there were people who took _Atlas Shrugged_ religiously. I couldn't believe it. Her best work of fiction, of course, is _Introduction to Objectivist Epi- stemology_. It doesn't have a plot, but it's completely mind boggling, the way PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE is. (Her short story "An Open Letter to Boris Spassky" [in _Philosophy: Who Needs It?_], sometimes called "Rand to Gibber Four", is a profound classic, not to be missed. The tension created by her usage of a first person narrator who is completely ignorant of the game of chess while carrying on an imaginary dialectical ex- change with the world champion in a completely condescending manner makes for gut-rolling humor. The suspension of disbelief is difficult at this point, however. After all, no one in real life would actually say such moronic things about chess as the narrator does.) >I do not know why Shea and Wilson have such an antipathy, since >they claim to be libertarians, which share most ideas with >objectivists. Their parody ("Telemachus Sneezed" and "Militarism: >The Unknown Ideal for the new Heraclitean") make it clear they >didn't understand a word they read. Like all true believers in the word of Rand, Keith can only interpret disagreement with Rand as some sort of mental blockage. Get real. Matthew P Wiener Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 87 22:14:15 GMT From: scdpyr!faulkner@rutgers.edu (Bill Faulkner) Subject: Re: Ayn Rand KFL@MX.LCS.MIT.EDU writes: > I do not know why Shea and Wilson have such an antipathy, since > they claim to be libertarians, which share most ideas with > objectivists. Their parody ("Telemachus Sneezed" and "Militarism: > The Unknown Ideal for the new Heraclitean") make it clear they > didn't understand The main problem with most objectivists (remind you not all) is that they tend to worship at the altar of logic and refuse to see much of the humor in many things, especially objectivism. This is why Shea and Wilson prod so much fun at Rand and objectivism. They can goad many objectivists into getting angry with them and maybe, just maybe rattle their cages so they stop looking at Rand as a savior. This is just part of what is called guerrilla ontology, and Shea and Wilson use it endlessly. BTW I know many objectivists, libertarians, anarchists an their ilk (or is that my ilk, I am at least one of those if not all three), some of the objectivists really love Wilson and Shea and others apparently like you are rather lukewarm towards them. Basicly I see Wilson (I not sure about Shea) as understanding much about objectivism, but rejecting it as the basis for libertarian thought. The rigid dogmatic logic structure of many objectivists is not for everybody, and it is especially repugnant to most avowed discordians (such as Wilson and Shea). While I have made many generalizations in this article, I realize that each entity has its own thoughts and feelings and to catorgorize all objectivists into one narrow slot is not right. I am just talking about a portion of the objectivists and if you are not in that catagory, don't flame me about generalizations. BTW I don't believe 90% of what I write, so believe what you will. Bill Faulkner NCAR (Nat'l Center for Atmospheric Research) PO Box 3000 Boulder, CO 80307-3000 303-497-1259 UUCP: faulkner@scdpyr.UUCP hao!scdpyr!faulkner INTERNET: faulkner@scdpyr.ucar.edu ARPA: faulkner%ncar@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 28 MAR 1987 20:01 EST From: David Liebreich Subject: Rosenberg Does anyone know if there will be a fourth book in Joel Rosenberg's series _Guardians_of_the_Flame_, and if so, when? While I'm on the subject, let me recommend the first three books, _The_ Sleeping_Dragon_, _The_Sword_and_the_Chain_, and _The_Silver_Crown_ as worthwhile reading. Even though these books are hard-core fantasy, the writing style and plot development are very good. When I look for books to read, I don't really care in which genre they are classified. I look for a book that will keep me interested enough to continue reading. A great plot will do nothing if a Herculean effort is necessary to read beyond the first chapter, and likewise, the best writing style will not save a plot that's downright stupid. I have encountered both. _Guardians_of_the_Flame is fun reading, and I recommend it as such. Dave Liebreich BITNet: DCL1@LEHIGH.BITNET KDCLIEB@LEHICDC1.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 87 11:46:35 -0800 From: obrien@aero2.aero.org Subject: Book of the New Sun -- Severian's mother This is a specialty question for those folks who've read "The Book of the New Sun" with some degree of care. Wolfe claims that he tied up all the loose ends. Wolfe is also known for incredible subtleties. Therefore, I'd like to know if anyone out there has any clues as to the real identity of Severian's mother. Ouen claims that her name was Catherine, and that she ran away from a group of monials. Some time after her tryst with Ouen, the law took her away, presumably to the Matachin Tower, where the infant Severian was adopted into the Order. The question is, can anyone match this up with any of the other characters in the book? Cyriaca, for instance? Or is it indeed true that this was some completely new person, never met or referred to by anyone else? Mike O'Brien obrien@aerospace.aero.org {trwrb,sdcrdcf}!aero!obrien ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 01:08:45 GMT From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Re: Book of the New Sun -- Severian's mother I feel fairly confident in stating that Catherine was not in any way connected with the other characters of the novel. Although with the bizarre folds in time, there's always the possibility that Catherine is Saint Katherine, the patron of the Order of Seekers of Truth and Penitence. But I'd have to see some real, textual evidence for this before I would accept it. Maybe there's something about her in _Castle of The Otter_ (or maybe one or the other Catherine will be mentioned in _The Urth of the New Sun_, which is due out in November from Tor). Is there anyone else out there willing, as I am, to make the claim that this four-volume novel is the crowning achievement of S(peculative)F(iction)? I read these as they came out, and thought highly of them; but when I re-read them in one sitting earlier in the year, I (figuratively) saw God. Kevin J. Maroney mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 09:58:32 GMT From: starfire!brust@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Blood of Amber (* SPOILER *) - Why is Merlin so stupid? I've read that damned book twice, and I didn't catch the one-eyed, lop-eared wolf business. Damn! Maybe Merlin IS stupid, but if so, so am I. Anyway, I'm glad you pointed that out. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 16:23:06 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Post-Holocaust Works--Addendum From: ihlpa!fish (Bob Fishell) > I looked over both the lists, and I failed to notice a novella > titled "The House by the Crabapple Tree," which was one of the > most emotionally stunning pieces of "post-holocaust" SF I have > ever read. The trouble is, I cannot remember who wrote it. It > appeared in _The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction_ in the > middle '60s, I think, and I'm sure I've seen it anthologized > somewhere. I looked for it in my collection of anthologies, > though, and I couldn't find it. It's by S.S. Johnson, and first appeared in F&SF, February 1964. The only anthology it's appeared in is THE BEST FROM FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION #14 (edited by Avram Davidson). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 30 Mar 87 1142-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #119 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Mar 87 1142-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #119 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 30 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 119 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker (9 msgs) & Magic (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Mar 87 16:35:52 GMT From: ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Information (details and Magic) CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes: >4. His current series (the name eludes me at the moment) - Even > more mystic because the Master System has placed most of its > constituents into a pre-computer mode. What does Silent Woman > and Cloud Dancer think when they pop into a chamber on a ship > and pop out of another on the surface of a planet? That's right > - magic. > > So what Chalker does is put incredible science into the hands of > the ignorant (not stupid, just ignorant). The result is magic. > > BTW does anyone have a canonical listing of Chalker's works that > could be sent to me? I find all of his work fascinating. Uh, that series is "Rings of the Masters", so far consisting of two books (more to come), the first of which I can't recall (_Lords of the Inner Dark_?) and _Pirates of the Thunder_, just recently out. Eric C. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 19:45:37 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Jack L. Chalker (was Information (details and Magic)) From: Russ Williams >haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes in response to Mark Biggar: >> Poof! you're a frog...now where did I learn enough about the >> genetic structure of a frog to turn you into a functional >> amphibian? > >I can imagine a magician poof!ing you into a frog (for your >insolence :-) with no knowledge of genetics just as easily as a >gourmet might eat and digest you afterwards with no knowledge of >digestion. Like many authors who do their writing on computers, Chalker injects a lot of programming into his books, often in very subtle ways. For example, it is not necessary for a magician in the "Soul Rider" series to know every bit about, say, creating a cup of coffee, from the atomic level on up. Instead, the magician would call up sub-programs to create a cup, create some coffee, and heat it up, and could then combine all of these sub-programs into an "I want a cup of coffee" program. Or, "Make that person into a sexy bombshell" program, given what you've already figured are the specific commands involved in making somebody sexy, and a bombshell (long hair, high explosives, that sort of thing). Bottom up programming at its finest. There were a lot of inconsistencies in the books; such as the chromosone problem in Book Four that was totally ignored in the previous three. I have this sneaky suspicion that Chalker combines the writing process with the creative process... in the "Four Lords of the Diamond" serial, Chalker would only introduce characters and planets from the previous books, while leaving the future ones as surprises. If this "if the characters haven't been there yet, then nobody else in the entire world will know any more about it than them, but when they get there, suddenly it's _the_ place to be" sort of plot development was confined to this one serial, than I could see (maybe) the point of leaving the other planets wide open. But it's prevalent in all of his series. This one's just the worst. The "Five Rings" series does this deliberately, as the main characters learn more of the universe that was, until recently, the stuff of legend and superstition. Each plateau they come to allows them to see the next mesa rising ahead. I think this is a case of Chalker playing to his weaknesses. BTW, has anybody noticed the broad similarities between Chalkers "Labyrinth of Dreams", and Mike Resnick's "Stalking the Unicorn"? You've got your basic down-in-his-socks hard-boiled detective, your basic trip into alternate universes, etc. Of the two, I liked Resnick's "Stalking the Unicorn" best, even though it had that awful "U" word in the title. There was a certain sense of fantastical whimsy about it... A good, light read. Chalker's "Labyrinth" does not work as a mystery or as detective fiction (but perhaps I've just been reading too many of Robert Parker's "Spenser" series lately). The alternate universe schtick is extremely overused. The beginning of the book introduced a company that sold and distributed all those "Kitchen Magician" and "Bass-o-matics" and "Slim Whitman" albums that the UHF stations are full of. I saw some real possibilities there for a fun book, but Chalker lost that thread - and I think he could have made it work, given his "Dancing Gods" series - and continued with the sf detective plot. Disappointing. For a GOOD science fiction/mystery/detective book, read Vernor Vinge's "Marooned in Real Time". I can't say enough about this book - it is well written, the characters are real; there is a particular scene in the book which showed me exactly how much I'd come to care for them (I'm thinking of the passage at the end of the diary). Bruce Holloway {seismo,hplabs,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 20:01:40 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: A List of Jack L. Chalker Books The Devil's Voyage Dancers in the Afterglow Web of the Chozen A Jungle of Stars War of Shadows "Adrift Among the Ghosts" (short story, published on Delphi) Downtiming the Night Side The Identity Matrix ... And the Devil Will Drag You Under Well World Series: Midnight at the Well of Souls Twilight at the Well of Souls The Return of Nathan Brazil (can't remember the names of the other two, I'm doing this from memory). Four Lords of the Diamond: Lilith: Snake in the Grass Charon: Cerberus: Medusa: Dancing Gods: River of the Dancing Gods Demons of the Dancing Gods Vengeance of the Dancing Gods (Chalker has hinted at another book in this series...) Soul Rider: Spirits of Flux and Anchor Masters of Flux and Anchor Empire of Flux and Anchor Birth of Flux and Anchor Children of Flux and Anchor Masters of the Rings: Lords of the Middle Dark Pirates of the Thunder (There are two more books in this series, written but not released) G.O.D. Inc: Labyrinth of Dreams (This series is open-ended - it has no definite ending). He also has a short story collection coming out called "Dance Band on the Titanic", or some such. Bruce Holloway {seismo,hplabs,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1987 09:53:31-EST From: clapper@NADC Subject: Chalker (was "Information (details and Magic)) Warning: Minor spoilers contained within! byron@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Byron A Jeff) writes: > Jack Chalker has quite a few things in common in all of his stuff > that I've read. ... > > 1. He writes series. > 2. They involve computers. > 3. The computers are sentient. > 3. These computers have the ability to change the environment. > i.e. create something out of "nothing". > 4. Humans can interface to the computers without an obvious > physical connection. > 5. The computers respond to the humans' request. > 6. Humans have no working knowledge of computer or interface. I can add at least two more: 7. Immortality. Many of Chalker's characters live enormous life spans. (e.g., Mavra Chang and Nathan Brazil from the _Well_World_ series, Cass and Matson from the _Sould_Rider_ series, etc). 8. Sex Change. Of late, Chalker seems to have become obsessed with sexual metamorphoses. In many of his recent books, the sexual orientations and characteristics of his characters change almost every chapter. :-) He also seems to have a fixation for the size of the male genitalia. (Every time a character "becomes" a male, he is surprised and pleased to notice that all of the sudden he is blessed with enormous sex organs.) Initially, I thought Chalker's foray into this area was an intriguing exploration of human sexual biases and viewpoints. Lately, though, I'm convinced it's just one of Chalker's minor obsessions. Personally, I used to be a big Chalker fan; I've read a LOT of his stuff. I've become very bored with his books lately, though. There are TOO many similarities in his works. I feel as though I'm reading the same ideas, over and over again -- recycled with a slightly different setting. I've stopped buying his books. It's a shame, too. I really liked the _Well_World_ series, the first of his I ever read. Brian M. Clapper Naval Air Development Center Warminster, PA ARPA: clapper@nadc UUCP: ...harvard!clapper@nadc.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 87 17:08:14 GMT From: mende@aramis.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende) Subject: Re: Chalker (was "Information (details and Magic)) Please dont forget the following: 9. All of his books are places on worlds that do not obey most or any of the "laws of nature". Look at well world, lord of the diamonds, flux, ... 10. Many of his books are placed in the same universe (or similar universe). Where the government is communist and people are molded into the governments' idea of the ideal citizen. 11. All of his books explore a different type of govermental system. Many of the systems that he describes are specialy tailored for the environment of the planet (or the other way around.) 12. Chalker will try to show that communism is inferior to other systems and often show that its inhabitants want to change from the mold that they have been forced into. ARPA: mende@rutgers.edu BITNET: mende@zodiac.bitnet UUCP: rutgers!mende ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 87 21:50:46 GMT From: byron@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Byron A Jeff) Subject: Re: Chalker (was "Information (details and Magic)) mende@aramis.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende) writes: >9. All of his books are places on worlds that do not obey most or > any of the "laws of nature". Look at well world, lord of the I'm not so sure about this one. On Well World the Well computer monkeyed with the Markovian space-time equations to get the funky physics. All the hexes followed the "laws of nature" defined by the programmer who had the math to transcend the default laws. Chalker gave a pretty detailed technical explanation of how flux worked also. All of the precepts were within the realm of modern physics. Again the programming of the 28 anchor computers allowed them to manipulate flux at will. I'm a couple of months away from _Birth of Flux and Anchor_ but I think I've got the right idea. Lord of the diamonds is an execption to a point. But light, gravity, electo- mag and other physical phenomena worked as the default. Of course the bonding of the microscopic organisms and humans and their interaction is little far. So I find that Chalker supercedes the current laws of physics instead of breaking them. He incorporates them into the new discoveries (Markovian equations, flux etc.) that allow things that can't happen in modern physics. I see it as an extension of the incorporation of classical into modern physics. Byron Jeff {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!byron ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 03:22:14 GMT From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Jack L. Chalker (Was: Information (details and Magic)) byron@gitpyr.UUCP (Byron A Jeff) writes: >Jack Chalker has quite a few things in common in all of his stuff >that I've read. This of course is not law! Qualify each of these >with mostly/almost always/always (your choice). > > 1. He writes series. > 2. They involve computers. > 3. The computers are sentient. > 3. These computers have the ability to change the environment. > i.e. create something out of "nothing". > 4. Humans can interface to the computers without an obvious > physical connection. > 5. The computers respond to the humans' request. > 6. Humans have no working knowledge of computer or interface. Well, I'd like to suggest the `River of the Dancing Gods' series as a counterexample to points 2-6, and `Web of the Chozen,' `The Devil Will Drag You Under,' and one other (the bad guys were called `machists') as counterexamples to point 1, but I'd like to add another point, entirely unrelated to the above: 7. In every book, a large number of major characters go walking around naked. I find he does write interesting stuff - not great, but a good read. The above fetish (perhaps that's too strong a word) does put me off a bit, though. Colin Plumb watmath!watnot!ccplumb ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 00:15:13 GMT From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Information (details and Magic) I read a Chalker book once: _The_River_of_Dancing_Gods_. As far as I recall, it had NO computers whatsoever in it, though it was SF disguised as fantasy. Someone else on the net once gave a different formula for Chalker's work, something that involved "irreversible" changes to characters that later were reversed anyway. I do not think I will ever read anything else by Chalker as I found River much too shallow (random put) and "done before" in plot. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 21:38:26 GMT From: mende@aramis.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende) Subject: Re: Chalker (was "Information (details and Magic)) byron@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Byron A Jeff) writes: >mende@aramis.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende) writes: >>9. All of his books are places on worlds that do not obey most or >> any of the "laws of nature". Look at well world, lord of the >> diamonds, flux, ... > >I'm not so sure about this one. On Well World the Well computer >monkeyed with the Markovian space-time equations to get the funky >physics. All the hexes followed the "laws of nature" defined by the >programmer who had the math to transcend the default laws. Please note that I "quoted" laws of nature". I did not make myself clear, and for this I am sorry. What I meant about not following "laws of nature" was that the local laws of nature were modified from, or just plain different from those on earth. I have never read one of his books (and I have only missed a few of the recient ones (school takes up far too much time :-) )) where the characters are on a "Normal" earthlike planet (universe) that did not have some quirk or another. ARPA: mende@rutgers.edu BITNET: mende@zodiac.bitnet UUCP: rutgers!mende ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 87 04:10:44 GMT From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry) Subject: Re: Magical Shop stories About six to twelve months ago there was a good story in Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine that was something like a magic shop story. Was called "Wu's Lost and Found Emporium" or some such. It certainly featured a shop full of strange things that appeared out of nowhere. Allan ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 87 21:49:27 GMT From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: Information (details and Magic) Poul Anderson pointed out the difficulties inherent in doing transmutation without knowing basic atomic theory in _Operation: Chaos_. Even if you get all the energy right, you might end up with an unstable isotope. I worked it out once. Transmuting Lead into Gold will generally release enough energy to blow the alchemist and his lab and a good portion of the block into nice greasy fragments. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 31 Mar 87 1028-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #120 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Mar 87 1028-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #120 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 31 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 120 Today's Topics: Books - Gibson (7 msgs) & Heinlein & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Zelazny & Upcoming Books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Mar 87 13:10:30 EST From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) Subject: NEUROMANCER and Cyberpunk Well, it seems to me that the acerbic disputes about cyberpunk (and, auugh, cyberprep, cybersmurf...) have been blown way out of proportion. I very much liked NEUROMANCER, and so, it seemed, did the majority of the SFWA. But a new genre? Really. It was a mix of Chandleresque prose with the standard ugly corporate near-future combined with some flashy throwaway ideas and a treatment of a computer-generated "space" NOT AT ALL LIKE TRON, but like Vernor Vinge's TRUE NAMES. Personally, I think TRUE NAMES was a fairly amateurish piece of work compared to NEUROMANCER, but that's just opinion. I also think Gibson is a more masterful writer, in terms of pure technique than most of the others in the "cyberpunk" movement which unfortunately formed after NEUROMANCER'S success. See Norman Spinrad's STAYING ALIVE (now a book by Donner) for a discussion of "genrefication" and why it is bad. I've read a few interviews with Gibson, and as far as I can tell, he had no intention of creating a "movement" or a Cyberpunk manifesto, but instead was willing to go along with the trend, once some of those other more obscure writers you can find in MIRRORSHADES decided that they had something going. Gibson's other works have been rather good, I think. The short stories collected in BURNING CHROME were of high quality (except for the collaborations), and COUNT ZERO was reasonably good, though of admittedly lower quality than NEUROMANCER. But other writers in the "subgenre" have not really contributed very much. I liked the book by Walter Jon Williams, (an obvious ripoff work, cashing in on the trend) even though it had nothing really to say, but the various short stories by the other MIRRORSHADES writers and the works of K. W. Jeter have just left me flat. Left to itself, I'd say Cyberpunk would just softly and silently vanish away, but the continuing hubbub in the SF community (not to mention the bizarre idea of an "opposing" subgenre of "humanistic" SF), may prolong the life of the thing. If we could just get away from the whole idea of genre fiction (not to mention subgenres), I think we'd all be better off. Laurence R. Brothers brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu {harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!brothers ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 87 21:25:56 GMT From: bcsaic!randy@rutgers.edu (Randy Groves) Subject: Re: Gibson and Delany J.JBRENNER@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU writes: >In the case of NEUROMANCER, I think it might be a little closer to >what's going on to say that there's none of the sentimentality or >nostalgia that a lot of people seem to find so comforting in things >like Star Trek. And while I'm at it, in what sense can Delany's >work be described as all style and no substance? I've noted with some dismay the comments about lack of characterization - to me Neuromancer was one of the most involving novels that I have read in some time. I was totally immersed and came up with my reality somewhat askew. Likewise Dhalgren. There are images and feelings from both books that are still immediate - and I last read Dhalgren 10 years ago, at least. Time be time ... randy groves Boeing Advanced Technology Center USNail: Boeing Computer Services PO Box 24346 M/S 7L-44 Seattle, WA 98124 UUCP: ..!uw-beaver!uw-june!bcsaic!randy CSNET: randy@boeing.com VOICE: (206)865-3424 ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 02:31:04 GMT From: well!brianop@rutgers.edu (Brian McBee) Subject: Gibson I just finished Gibson's Neuromancer and was very impressed. A wonderful first novel. Where can I find more of his work? Has he published any shorter fiction? Write to me at well!brianop, I don't know the path. Thanx. well!brianop ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 87 02:28:28 GMT From: starfire!brust@rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) Subject: Re: NEUROMANCER and Cyberpunk Just to set the record straight, the novel (I can't recall the name at the moment) that is reminiscent of NEUROMANCER was completed well before Gibson's book hit the stands. Just thought you should know. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 21:39:23 GMT From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: NEUROMANCER and Cyberpunk brust@starfire.UUCP (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) writes: >Just to set the record straight, the novel (I can't recall the name >at the moment) that is reminiscent of NEUROMANCER was completed >well before Gibson's book hit the stands. Just thought you should >know. I don't know if this is the book you are talking about, but I remember hearing that the novel _Hardwired_ was written before _Neuromancer_ but published after it. I don't know the author of _Hardwired_, but it is supposed to be very similar to _Neuromancer_. This may be the book you are remembering. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 21:45:24 GMT From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Gibson >I just finished Gibson's Neuromancer and was very impressed. A >wonderful first novel. Where can I find more of his work? Has he >published any shorter fiction? Write to me at well!brianop, I >don't know the path. Thanx. A collection of all of Gibson's short fiction (20) stories has just been published, called _Burning_Chrome_. I believe he also has one other novel besides _Neuromancer_, but I don't know what it is. And that's *all*. He's a very new writer. I thought _Neuromancer_ was awesome (almost as awesome as A.A.Attanasio's _Radix_ - you should read it: Bantam-Spectra). ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 87 18:07:47 GMT From: utai!morenz@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Cyberpunk >My roommate asks: > How would you define Cyberpunk? If you have read Neuromancer, I think the kids he describes there (I forget off hand what he calls them) with the cybernetic plug-ins to their brains, and a cunning nasty streak the bandwidth of which I wouldn't want to calculate.. They are excellent candidates for the term Cyberpunks. Tell your roommate to read the book, not only for the definition he is looking for but a good story in general. Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.UUCP gpu.utcs.toronto.edu ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 87 16:58:47 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Cat cover and plot Near the end of Heinlein's "Cat who Walks Through Walls" we learn, in passing, that the protagonist is black. The cover portrays him as being quite caucasian. Was this necessary? (minor spoilers) I think I've decided that the book was deliberately written as a demonstration that people will buy Heinlein's books no matter how bad they are. Note that in the opening scene the narrator rates both the book's opening and the 'obvious' solution to the mystery as trash that no editor would accept. Note that the only reason ever given for not accepting one of the narrator's suggestions for rescuing Mike safely is actorial whim. And note that though the ability has been explicitly demonstrated to spend ten years planning an operation and then home in on the appropriate split second, the rescue party is left to bleed for a long time. Not just trash, but clearly deliberate trash. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 87 18:56:07 GMT From: cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) Subject: Re: Book of the New Sun -- Severian's mother kjm@dg_rtp.UUCP (Kevin Maroney) writes: > I feel fairly confident in stating that Catherine was not in any > way connected with the other characters of the novel. Although > with the bizarre folds in time, there's always the possibility > that Catherine is Saint Katherine, the patron of the Order of > Seekers of Truth and Penitence. Realize that this is coming from someone who's read the first 2 books only and so may be unfamiliar with later developments. In the Christian Church, Saint Catherine of Alexandria was tortured to death (as were many saints, admittedly) on the wheel. I don't know what she's supposed to be the Patron Saint of, but it wouldn't be surprising if she were so honored by the Torturers. Side notes: a Catherine('s) Wheel is also an acrobatic cartwheel and a type of fireworks. Some British pubs are named "The Cat and Wheel" after a corruption of "Catherine's Wheel". The point here is that this woman and her torture device are linked in popular culture, making her an even more likely candidate as Patron Saint of Torturers. (*And no flames about bad taste! Since when has the Church cared about bad taste? :-) *) Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!rutgers!elbereth!cje ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 87 21:18:27 GMT From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry) Subject: Re: Book of the New Sun -- Severian's mother > Is there anyone else out there willing, as I am, to make the claim > that this four-volume novel is the crowning achievement of > S(peculative)F(iction)? I read these as they came out, and > thought highly of them; but when I re-read them in one sitting > earlier in the year, I (figuratively) saw God. YES! YES! The Book of the New Sun is one of the best books I ever read. I hold this up to anybody else's favorite literature. I generally feel this way about most of Wolfe's work (ever read Peace?), but this is his best. This book has so much depth and texture that you could read it dozens of times and still be surprised. How could anybody keep everything so knit together over four volumes and several years of writing them? Everything ties in with everything else. I love the way he gives an explanation of parts of his world the way science fiction writers do, but then gives different and contradictory explanations later. Nothing neat and tidy, more like life. I love the historical feel to his society far in our future. The terminology sounds roman, the journey sounds like a Midaevel pilgrimage, yet when people dig they find layer upon layer of prior civilizations. I love his passion for telling strange little stories (and the translated story of the Ascian is a marvel). Where else in SF have you seen an honest-to-God hagiography? I love his jokes, like the Frankenstein turnabout. Or Severian's guild: the Seekers for Truth and Penitence, commonly known as the Torturers. But mostly I just like the writing. It takes a master to bring a reader to the logical acceptance of Volodius' alzebo feast or to bring the reader to appreciate that Severian is an excellent carnifex, one who is part of a rich tradition and who honestly plies his craft. I can't recommend it more highly. Besides, the cover of the first book is sure fire to get you a seat by yourself on a crowded Muni bus. My question back is did anybody else feel a jar in Severian's attitude about women? He has a certain detachment for people and for his own body--I suppose necessary in his line of work, or for somebody en route to "higher things". I can also understand that women were not part of his upbringing. Still, he seems too casual about Dorcas and her feelings. Why is he so hung up on Agila (sp?) considering her feelings back? He screws around but his heart does not seem to be in it. I have not quite figured out what Wolfe was doing with this part of Severian's character. Allan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 87 01:36:34 EST From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) Subject: Zelazny (stupidity, wild cards, LoL, CoLaD) Well, OK, Merlin was stupid, but in the heat of the moment, anyone could misremember. Merlin has not really had much to do in the last umpty-ump years, and is relatievly inexperienced, despite his power. If I were he, and with the luxury of having a lot of time to think about things, I'd have acted differently, too. However, if it turns out to be important that Merlin NOT figure out that Jurt was attacking, then, I agree, I'll be annoyed. If he figures it out before it matters, then it's ok, though. Despite my continual assertion that Zelazny is God, I do agree that the series is getting a little comic-bookish now. (EE Smith would have said: It has scope). But as long as Zelazny doesn't do anything utterly outrageous, I won't complain too loudly. Speaking of comic-bookish, anyone seen Zelazny's stories in Wild Cards? Now THAT is throwaway writing (but still fun, nevertheless). I would say one important difference between LoL and CoLaD is that LoL is sometimes written with a "mythic" tone whereas CoLaD is completely in that tone. I.e., the LoL characters are sometimes human, sometimes they raise attributes, whereas the CoLaD characters are always gods. Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 06:25:40 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Spring/summer titles from Donning/Starblaze More press releases with upcoming books, this time the graphic novel (and other) lines of Donning Starblaze. Hope you find this useful. enjoy! April Mage: The Hero Discovered, Vol. 1 by Matt Wagner. Color Graphic Novel, 144 8.5x11 pages. Compilation of the first five issues of the Comico series. [ed note: originally a March title, it seems to have slipped again, it was more originally a fall title last year] A Distant Soil #1: Immigrant Song by Colleen Doran. Color Graphic Novel, 72 pages 8.5x11. Revised, rewritten, redrawn. Gate of Ivrel #1: claiming rights adapted and illustrated by Jane Fancher Color Graphic Novel, 72 pages 8.5x11. Adaptation of C.J. Cherryh's novel. Takeoff, too! by Randall Garrett. 310 pages trade paperback. Parodies and pastiches from the author of the Lord Darcy Series. [ed note: also long delayed, and long awaited. Takeoff! is wonderful, and now back in print. get them both!] May Duncan & Mallory #2: The Bar None Ranch by Robert Asprin and Mel. White. Color Graphic Novel, 64 pages, 8.5x11 The pair are the proud owners of a tarantula ranch. [ed note: #1 was okay, but not up to Myth Adventures style humor or strangeness] Thorgal #2: The Archers by Rosinski & Van Hamme Color Graphic Novel, 8.5x11 48 pages Aria #2: The Knights of Aquarius by M. Weyland Color Graphic Novel, 8.5x11 48 pages Thieves' World (TM) Graphics 5 adapted by Robert Asprin & Lynn Abbey B&W Graphic Novel, 8.5x11, 64 pages [ed note: art by Tim Sale? It doesn't say, but he was the artist in previous volumes] [editorial notes: Starblaze is not known for the rigourousness of their schedules. Mage has been postponed twice, the first time a major delay because the original separations simply didn't work. The second, one month delay seems to be administrative. Takeoff, Too! was originally supposed to be out last fall as well. Other titles might slip without notice] June Myth-Nomers and Im-Pervections by Robert Asprin, Illustrated by Phil Foglio The eighth Myth Adventures book. [ed note: recent books have had few Foglio illos. sigh] [ed note: the press release did not print the name of this book. Seriously] by Phil Foglio Color Graphic Novel, 8.5x11, 72 pages ISBN 0-89865-495-9 [ed note: to quote from the PR:] An exciting and hilarious blend of adventure, comedy, and the Foglio sense of pathos. Cartoons haven't been this fun since Chuck Jones. [ed note: I wish they'd told me what the name was. I'll buy Foglio sight unseen...] July Robotech (TM) art 2 by Kay Reynolds. Illustrated by Colleen Doran, Trina Robbins, Dave Garcia, Lela Dowling, Lee Moyer, Phil Foglio, Doug rice, Jane Fancher, Rick Taylor, and more. Trade Paperback, 120 pages color Original art and animation cels from Robotech. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 31 Mar 87 1058-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #121 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Mar 87 1058-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #121 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 31 Mar 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 121 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Terminology (8 msgs) & Report on Space & Star Tours & Back Covers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Mar 87 01:31:49 GMT From: styx!mcb@rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker I personally am a member of neither category, but I would submit that in the only meaningful analysis, Messrs. Roddenberry, Shatner, Nimoy, etc. are trekkERS, and Star Trek fans are therefore necessarily trekkEES. Michael C. Berch ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.arpa UUCP: lll-lcc!styx!mcb lll-crg!styx!mcb ihnp4!styx!mcb ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 87 08:09:02 GMT From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Clique? pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes: >[mundanes] start to work out what these ridiculous terms mean they >end up getting changed, fans -> fen , trekky -> trekker , >conference -> con person of other literary taste -> mundane. fans/fen isn't a religious issue, it's just a quirky variant. "Con" was never short for "conference", it comes from "convention". I don't think "conference" means anything especially different or "bad" to me, but I've never heard of a "science fiction conference" (except on fidonet, where I coordinate one :-) and don't know what one would be like. Mundane doesn't mean person of other literary taste. If you want to be insulting to us, try saying that mundane means person of non-fannish lifestyle. The "other literary taste" definition is just too far off, we won't react properly. >We are adults aren't we if they start to insult us or look upon >science fiction with disdain why do we have to circle the wagons >and start to snipe back at them with our stupid, cliquey jargon. We >are arguing about books You said it yourself; if they start to insult us, circling the wagons is a very natural (and necessary) reaction. However, the jargon isn't related to that, the jargon is just an aid to communication among ourselves. Plus some of it is for humor. I find both these characteristics in computer jargon, too, despite all the people who claim we invented THAT to prevent them from understanding us also. > Just out of interest. If somebody came up to you and asked you why >you read sci-fi how would you respond. That's easy; I tell them I DON'T read sci-fi. >BTW I am not slagging off any of the writers above, this article >just seemed the most representative of an attitude which I find a >little disconcerting. While I probably hold attitudes you'd find a little disconcerting, I really thought that my previous article was just doing a fairly straight explanation of the terms that had been asked about. David Dyer-Bennet UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 87 08:58:49 GMT From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: "trufen"/"serfen"/etc. From: Mark Crispin > The sort of egotism that creates the subject terminology is >the primary thing that is wrong with many SF cons AND leads to the >public perception of SF people as a collection of glassy-eyed >geeks. This seems to be a matter of opinion (it's hard to present hard evidence about why the general public believes x), but I fail to see that fanspeak has anything to do with egotism. It's more computer jargon -- it lets us communicate precisely and concisely, with some humor thrown in when it doesn't get in the way. Nor do I think that fanspeak has ever been exhibited to enough of the general public to allow them to use it to form their opinions of us. > If you detest the concept of media fen, then you are just as >guilty of all the prejudice, slander, and ignorance of many of the >general public show toward SF fans. Depends who's right :-) Most SF fans who dislike "media fen" are basing their opinions on literally hundreds of people they have observed personally (plus slanderous remarks, rumors, and other input). Is that prejudice, or is that dislike based on information? In contrast, the vast majority of people who sneer at SF have never met a fan (certainly not a "trufannish" convention-going fan), and DAMN few of them have ever seen us in our natural habitat (i.e. at a convention) > Instead of treating Trekkies as a lower form of life, try, >GENTLY, to expose them to other forms of fandom. "Gee, if you like >STAR TREK try reading *** -- I think you'll like it." Don't >consider him/her/it a raging idiot because he/she/it can't recite >the title of every book Asimov has ever written... What an original, brilliant, idea :-) I don't consider trekkers or even trekkies to be lower forms of life. However, your suggestion doesn't work very well if three times as many of them as of us show up. To my knowledge this hasn't hapenned to any convention yet; but it's what we're all afraid of. Deep down inside we know that the media fen outnumber us 10 to 1 or some such. As to reciting book titles -- come on. So there's a flaming asshole every now and then, that doesn't make it the norm of behavior. David Dyer-Bennet UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 87 05:47:13 GMT From: utah-gr!donn@rutgers.edu (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: SF terminology/classifications scirtp!george has obviously read a different book than the one I read if he can't find any science fiction in Gene Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN. The only straight fantasy in the novel is told by the characters in their own stories; everything else has some degree of science- fictional rationalization. Thus the novel contains spaceships, robots, death rays, FTL drives, aliens, time travel and other familiar trappings of science fiction, in different guises. The protagonist of the novel knows nothing about the technologies involved in the creation of most of the artifacts he encounters, and it's up to the reader to work out these puzzles. (Of course Severian is quite familiar with one particular science -- the science of torture, about which I learned quite a bit from reading the novel.) These puzzles are part of the reason I thought the novel was so fun to read. I have no reservations about classifying THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN as science fiction. I don't really care how a publisher labels their output -- a publisher's concern is to sell books, not to study them. Recently I've read several books which were really science fiction or fantasy but weren't marketed as such by the publisher; I've been thinking of writing a review of these to show sf readers what they might be missing if they pay too much attention to publishers' labels. I only notice the label when the product is named 'UBIK!', Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@cs.utah.edu 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 05:22:59 PST (Thursday) Subject: Re: Terminolgy From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM Kevin Maroney writes: >I think it's worth pointing out that the mundane world at large >uses the term "sci-fi" to denote exactly the same qualitative >distinction that we fen use; i.e., when a mundane (especially a >literary mundane) uses the phrase "sci-fi", he means "bad science >fiction". For most mundanes, the terms "science fiction" and "bad >science fiction" are completely synonymous. What a broad, and insulting, generalization! I have many non-fan acquaintances who are familiar with my own fannish proclivities. They use the term 'sci-fi' to identify a category of fiction, with no qualitative judgment or implication of either the fiction or the people who read it. Can you say as much when you call these people 'mundanes'? ------------------------------ Date: Thu 26 Mar 87 15:03:50-PST From: Judy Anderson Subject: Terminology As it says on my MITSFS tshirt: "We're not fans, we just read the stuff!" I don't think that the word fan, although derived from "fanatic", has that connotation anymore. Think of "sports fan". You don't necessarily conjure up an image of someone who watches every football game on television, stands in line for hours to get tickets to all the home games, etc. You just think of your uncle who watches Monday night football, occasionally participates in the football pool, and cares about the superbowl and world series. That's not a fanatic, that's just someone who has an interest in sports and follows the appropriate games. So with science fiction fan. I read lots of SF, and go to about one convention a year. But I'm not devoted to the subject; I wouldn't miss my sister's wedding because there was an obscure little local con that weekend. However, I do consider myself a fan, and think that there's little room to doubt that I'm a fan. I think that anyone who reads SF-LOVERS is of necessity a fan; they show the requisite amount of interest in the subject. They needn't be a fanatic, and I don't think there's anything (anymore) in the word "fan" that implies they are. Re: star trek groupies; my first con was a star trek con, and let me tell you, a lot of those people are Groupies. But that's OK, I was 15 at the time, and somewhat of a groupie myself. I've since toned down, and now, yeah, I enjoy a round of star trek trivia occasionally, but it's been years since I've actually watched any of the TV series, and I only saw each of the movies once. Not terribly fanatical, nor groupie. Judy Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 87 20:30:14 PST From: hhaller@pnet01.CTS.COM (Harry Haller) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #104 The whole issue of 'sf' or 'sci-fi' seems to silly to become really worked up over. The people who worry most about such things will have the least impact upon literature, sf or other, by the simple fact of their inability to focus on what is important. As to the company sf keeps...well. I always felt that sf was too modest in its literary claims. The Bible or the saga of Gilgamesh are, to me, unquestionably works of sf, as is the Book of Mormon (which was required reading prior to submitting scripts for BattleStar Galactica, by the way). One of my favorite (unacknowledged) works of sf won the Nobel Prize for Hermann Hesse: The Glass Bead Game. Set in the 25th century and postulating a form of recreation that steals much of the novel's show, I am to my knowledge the only person who ever seriously referred to it as sf. As to 'sci-fi' being pejorative, well, maybe. But on meeting Mr Ackerman at LA ConII, and finding him such a charming and warm person, well, I can't really find it within me to take offense. The term reminds me of him: the grand old man of unspoiled teen fandom. In closing, again about the words 'sf' vs 'sci-fi', I cite our roots, the Null A Books, which are one of the great groundbreaking works of our genre: THE WORD IS NOT THE THING. Harry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 87 13:23 EDT From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Terminology I have stated this before, and will do so again, albeit more succinctly: A 'Trekkie' or a 'Trekker' is defined as someone who is so wrapped up in a 20 year old TV series that was at best, above average, that they actually care about the terminology that is used to describe the fans. In common parlance, that's a 'fanatic', or 'fan' for short. Lord have mercy on us if we are reduced to arguing semantics. My favorite term for what is known variously as SF, Science Fiction, Science Fantasy or whatever is the Italian term 'Fantascienza' which sums it up pretty well. Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 01:29:00 GMT From: ruffwork@orstcs.cs.ORST.EDU Subject: National Commission on Space Report If you have not yet seen the new report from the National Commission on Space it is now available from Bantam Books. It is called "Pioneering the Space Frontier: An Exciting Vision of Our Next Fifty Years in Space", and is dedicated to the crew of the 51-L. I have just started a detailed read, but in flipping through the pages I see what looks like a bold set of goals for a civilian space program (if it will only sell...sigh). The book is also very flashy, with many colour plates in it. Very worth while !!! ritchey ruff ruffwork%oregon-state@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 87 13:32:46 PST From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa Subject: Star Tours I just went to Disneyland this weekend and I wanted to review their newest addition, a ride named Star Tours. This new ride was created by a team from Disney and Lucasfilms and is set in a Star Wars motif (thus it's review here). For those of you familiar with Disneyland in California, Star Tours has replaced Monsanto's "Journey Through Inner Space" at the entrance to Tomorrowland. It is definitely a change for the better. The line, however, was the most extraordinary thing about the attraction since it stretched all the way down Main Street and took about two hours to traverse. The ride itself consists of a spacecraft simulator, a cute robot pilot, and a movie of the view out the front of the ship. There are actually four ships with room for about 35-40 people each, so they move people through pretty quickly. The flight takes about 12 minutes and is very rough. The pilot is, of course, on his first flight and makes just about every mistake possible. He is supposed to fly you to Endor, the forest moon, for a tour of the Ewok's home. Well, he misses and ends up in a comet for some serious ice dodging. Once he finally ends up at Endor, he gets caught in a Star Destroyer tractor beam. Luckily, he gets rescued by some rebel x-wings and joins in on their attack of the Death Star (another one!?!). After that he takes you back. We never did get to see Endor. All in all, the ride is a gas! I loved it. The simulator really pitches around. It feels like you are really in a spaceship doing some incredible maneuvers. It appeared that they left it a good ten feet on either side to move in. The movie is quality Lucasfilms, but short. The plot is cornball, but expected from a family oriented place like Disneyland. The thing I liked best about the ride is it's potential for growth. All it would take to completely change the ride is a new movie and new programming. Perhaps one day we really will get to see the forest moon. Jon pugh@nmfecc.arpa National Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory PO Box 5509 L-561 Livermore, California 94550 (415) 423-4239 ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 00:31:45 GMT From: bnrmtv!perkins@rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins) Subject: Re: Back cover writers > Is there any reason authors don't write their own back covers? > That way, we could tell what the book's about without reading the > first chapter. Yes. The contracts specify that the publishers have control over the "packaging" of the book. That includes artwork and the blurbs on the back cover and just inside the front. Publishers don't WANT an author's summary; they want advertising copy -- short and puffed-up. Their reasoning is that the back cover blurb is going to convince "impulse buyers" to get the book; serious readers will browse through the first chapter anyway. Right or wrong, they're the ones making the rules. Henry Perkins {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 31 Mar 87 1115-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #122 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Mar 87 1115-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #122 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 1 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 122 Today's Topics: Books - Story Requests (2 msgs), Films - Dune (2 msgs) & Neuromancer (3 msgs) & Nightflyers (2 msgs), Television - Starman & Ark II (2 msgs) & Blake's 7 & Doctor Who (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Mar 87 16:50:09 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Story Request Can someone help me? I'm looking for a story I once read -- in a magazine I think. It concerns a book (story? play?) which nobody has ever succeeded in reading to the end. The story contains a snipet of the play, which seems to be based on "The King in Yellow". The narrator tries to read the book and doesn't finish it. He tells his host that he *would* have finished it if the lights hadn't kept flickering. The host tells him that, due to the special wiring in his house, the lights *couldn't* have been flickering. Can someone point me to the story? advThanksance P.S. I'm curious about the origin of the names used in the Darkover books. Is Chalmers --> Lovecraft --> Bradley the whole story? Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 87 13:53:52 cst From: Brett Slocum Subject: Story request A friend asked if anyone could help finding this story. Plot: An employee of a 'proctor-gamble' type company is fired. He is angry, so he sky-writes nasty things about the company in the sky using some sort of foamed substance that is very light, but practically indestructible. These huge foam letters drift down to the town and cause all sorts of havoc, because you can't get rid of them. The won't burn, won't dissolve, nothing. The man eventually starts his own company that sells a rather mediocre cleanser that has one special property - it dissolves these foam things. Instant market. This sounds really strange. Anyone know what it is? Oh, he said he read it in the early sixties. Brett Slocum ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 87 11:35 PST From: lance@LOGICON.ARPA Subject: Dune the loooong movie The movie DUNE will be released with an extended show length. The new release (for home consumption) will be extended out to around 400 minutes from the movie release length of 140 minutes. Seems the movie version had whole storylines removed from it. Gee, and I didn't even notice. I don't remember who was doing this, the producer, original author, light man or makeup artist. Information gleemed from the recent issue of Stereo Review lance lance@logicon.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 04:10:10 GMT From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) Subject: Re: Dune the loooong movie lance@LOGICON.ARPA writes: >The movie DUNE will be released with an extended show length. The >new release (for home consumption) will be extended out to around >400 minutes from the movie release length of 140 minutes. Seems >the movie version had whole storylines removed from it. Gee, and I >didn't even I saw the home video release of Dune a few months ago (from a local rental shop), and this seemed to be the same as the original movie. Assuming what's reported above is true, don't go out and buy Dune just yet...or you'll get the same old version you saw in the theaters. Nathan Glasser nathan@mit-eddie.uucp (usenet) nathan@xx.lcs.mit.edu (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Fri 27 Mar 87 06:40:20-CST From: David Gadbois Subject: _Neuromancer_ movie A friend claims he saw a pre-pre-release commercial for the movie version of William Gibson's book _Neuromancer_. Has anyone else seen this, or am I just getting my leg pulled? Also, I thought Gibson had sold the rights to his short story "Burning Chrome," not those of the novel. David Gadbois cgs.gadbois@r20.utexas.edu ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 01:40:31 GMT From: styx!mcb@rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Re: _Neuromancer_ movie CGS.GADBOIS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes: > A friend claims he saw a pre-pre-release commercial for the movie > version of William Gibson's book _Neuromancer_. Has anyone else > seen this, or am I just getting my leg pulled? Also, I thought > Gibson had sold the rights to his short story "Burning Chrome," > not those of the novel. I have seen (parts of) the commercial. I didn't get the whole thing since I was not paying attention at the outset. All I remember of it is a green grid superimposed over a black screen and a stream of DTMF (TouchTone) sounds that got faster and faster. I looked up expecting to see the AT&T DeathStar logo, but instead was simply the word NEUROMANCER centered on the screen. There might have been some cruft at the bottom, like "Coming Soon" or the customary movie-poster type credits, too small to be read, by me at least. It went by really quickly and could not have been more than a 15-second spot. The funny thing is that I'm sure I saw no mention of either the sale of movie rights or the start of production for NEUROMANCER in LOCUS which surely would have mentioned either or both. Michael C. Berch ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.arpa UUCP: {ames,ihnp4,lll-crg,lll-lcc,mordor}!styx!mcb ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 87 20:25:41 GMT From: sequent!davest@rutgers.edu (Dave Stewart) Subject: Re: _Neuromancer_ movie I heard an announcement on the news that Timothy Leary (the 60's drug guru) is working on a video game based on Neuromancer, that will use the music of some rock group. David C. Stewart Sequent Computer Systems, Inc. tektronix!sequent!davest davest%sequent.UUCP@tektronix.TEK.COM ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 87 16:36:13 GMT From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Nightflyers -- George R. R. Martin kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) writes: > I just recently bought an anthalogy of stories by George R. R. > Martin called Nightflyers. (after having waited for the paperback > because the thing contains only 2 stories not in his earlier > collections, or other anthologies) The cover says "Soon to be a > Major Motion Picture". I assume they are refering to the title > story "Nightflyers". Does anyone know anything about this? There was a presentation at the Atlanta Worldcon. An apparently low-budget company called Vista had a presentation on the NIGHTFLYERS film. The flyer they gave out said that it will be coming out early in 1987, but I suspect they will wait for a summer audience. The director is Robert Collector and producer is Robert Jaffe. The film stars Catherine Mary Stewart, Michael Praed, and John Standing. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 87 16:57:47 GMT From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Re: Nightflyers -- George R. R. Martin The latest Cinefantastique has a one-page article on the upcoming _Nightflyers_ film. It appears that G.R.R. is involoved in the production, so maybe it won't be too bad. Also, it didn't appear to be particularly "cheep", regardless of its actual monetary budget. I haven't yet read the story, but I have high hopes. Since _Wild Cards_ came out, I've become a born-again Martin fan. (If anyone out there has a copy of _Armageddon Rag_ that they're not using, please drop me a line.) Kevin J. Maroney mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 87 00:12:02 GMT From: jhunix!ins_akaa (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: STARMAN >I think this is a really good show. It's attempting to show how >human beings look when seen through the eyes of an alien. And >sometimes what we take for granted can seem pretty cruel, >senseless, and "inhuman". Yes, that's one of the things wrong with it. Having an alien criticize human beings (variation: time traveller, computer, etc... instead of an alien) is, by now, an extremely old cliche. (Another variation: the idealized 20th century humans criticize a society which is a caricature of non-idealized 20th century humans. Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701@JHUVM, INS_AKAA@JHUVMS, INS_AKAA@JHUNIX ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 87 21:42:19 GMT From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works I think I remember Ark II. An oversized motor home, Robby the Robot (poor Robbie, to have sunk so low), a talking chimp, the Bell rocket pack, some sort of electric dune buggy. I think that's all the high points. I don't remember too well the human cast. The motor home had tandem rear axles, I think. david rickel cae780!weitek!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: FRIDAY 03/27/87 12:25:04 PST From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO@POMONA> Subject: Re:Post Holocaust Novels I do remember Ark II. I remember enjoying it quite a lot, and I remember my mother commenting that it seemed to have more substance to it than most of the fluff that usually runs on Saturday morning. (Ditto Space Academy.) I have a modest collection of Ark II material, predominantly Starlog magazines that mention the show, and a few photos I picked up at a convention. Does anyone know if there is a way to get Ark II / Space Academy on videotape?? George Madison 7GMADISO@POMONA.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 17:15:26 GMT From: hrcca!jean@rutgers.edu (Jean Airey) Subject: B7 Club listing For those interested in "Blake's 7" the following information might be of interest to you: CLUBS: SCORPIO, Box 397, Midlothian, IL 60445. The oldest surviving US club. Newsletter (very high quality). Maintains a close connection & is approved by Terry Nation. HORIZON, The Blake's Seven Appreciation Society. The largest general B7 club. Membership includes quarterly newsletter (with glossy photo covers), color photo and membership card. Merchandise includes over 20 fanzines, photo list, scripts, badges, Xmas cards etc. Regular London meetings. SAE (use IRCs (Internationsl Reply Coupons -- get them at the Post Office) if you don't have British stamps) Ann Steele, 47 Aylward Road, Merton Park, London SW20 9AJ. AVON -- THE PAUL DARROW SOCIETY. For fans of Avon who are also interested in the continuing career of Paul Darrow. Approved by Paul Darrow. Quarterly newsletter and merchandise. Both Paul and his wife Janet are very supportive of this group. In US and Canada, contact Mrs Joanne Stone, 7 Little Falls Way, Scotch Plains, NJ 07076. In England, SAE Mrs Ann Brown, 37A Byfleet Ave, Old BAsing, Basingstoke, Hampshire RG24 OHR. VILAWORD. For Vila/Michael Keating fans -- but also involves other B7 interests as well. SAE (IRCs if no British stamps) Miss Yvette Clarke, 85 Brendon Green, Millbrook, Southampton, Hants, So1 4BE England. THE LOST SESKA (B7 Info Service Vila Restal Society We Like Blake So There Condominum). An "un-club" -- publishes a letterzine, addresses of B7 clubs and merchandisers and other fans. Send to Linda Terrell, Box 25, Dunedin, FL 34296. Paul Darrow is confirmed for the STARLOG/Creationcon May 9 - 10 at the Penta Hotel in NYC. I'll be there -- and probably on a couple of panels -- if any netusers would like to say "hi!" Jean Airey US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 09:21 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Dr. Who Cc: Jim Hester >In The Robots of Death, we see a race of robots corrupted by >another mad scientist type. But we also see other members of the >same robot race, who are police agents out to foil the bad guys. >The leader good-guy robot is a strong character, but can anyone >even remembers his name? I can't. D84. A nice, memorable name for a robot. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 00:31:31 EST From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: The Dalek movies Robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen) writes: > Do you know the name of the movie which starred Peter Cushing as > Dr. Who, and which had him in Earths future fighting the Daleks > with a future disease? This was (as I recall) the Dr.s' > introduction to the Daleks, although he later met them in "Earth > 21XX" which has previously been discussed. > > So, what is the name of this movie, and how does it fit into the Dr. > Who timeline? Hmmm... There were two movies made in the mid-60's, with Peter Cushing as the Doctor. The first was "Doctor Who and the Daleks", and was based on the first Dalek story (and the second story in the series), "The Daleks" (makes sense, right?). This story was set on the planet Skaro, with the Thals fighting the Daleks and then the Doctor dropping by. I'm not sure about the disease element; there was plenty of radiation about, though. The second movie was "The Daleks- Invasion Earth 2150 [?] A.D.", based on the story "The Dalek Invasion of Earth". This involved the Doctor fighting an army of Daleks who are planning to blast out the core of the planet, drop in a drive system, and drive the planet about the galaxy, ex-ter-min-ating everything they run across. The two stories (the movies are for all intents and purposes the same as the stories they're based on) are set well after the creation of the Daleks (of course!), but before the return of Davros in the latter-day Dalek stories. That's one of the neat things about Doctor Who: you can run across a race at many points in its history in non-chronological order. Castell@UMass.Bitnet Chip Olson at UMass-Amherst ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 87 00:09:24 GMT From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Doctor Who and the Peascatons I was in a B. Dalton's Bookstore the other night, scanning the line of audio cassettes on display when I came across this: Doctor Who and the Pescatons! From Newman's Books-on-Cassette line. It features Tom Baker as the Doctor and Elisabeth Sladen as his intrepid companion Sarah Jane Smith (*Sigh*) It also features Bill Mitchell as the voice of Zor (shades of Robotech :-). The tape is narrated by Tom Baker and the story was written by Victor Pemberton. From the back cover: A lonely stretch of beach at night, a slithering sound approaching from the sand dunes nearby, and a roar to chill the hearts of even the most hardened followers of BBC-TV's longest running series: "DOCTOR WHO." In a spine-tingling adventure which has never been seen on television, the Doctor and his companion SARAH JANE battle against the PESCATONS, the most bizzarre and hostile invaders ever to emerge from the outer Universe. The alien creatures are on the rampage across the city of London, annihilating everything--and everyone-- in their path. In a frightening race against time, Dr. Who enters into battle with the mighty ZOR, ruler of the Pescatons. Can the Doctor stop the destruction of civilization on Earth? Total playing time: 45 minutes. (about 2 episodes.) Dolbyised. I haven't heard it yet but I will tonite. The address for Newman Communications Corporation is Alburquerque, NM 87107. (They also advertise for "Journey to the Centre of the Earth" and "The Strange Case of Doctor Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde" also narrated by Tom Baker!) Are there any other Doctor Who audio tapes available? Especially with ELisabeth Sladen? Cheers, Stephen Pearl VOICE: (201)932-3465 US MAIL: LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903 UUCP: ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl ARPA: PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 87 15:18 EST From: TMPLee@DOCKMASTER.ARPA Subject: Dr. Who season 23? Does anyone know if any PBS stations have been able to get season 23 ("The Trial of a Time Lord?) and have scheduled it? Ours just posted their new schedule and instead of following 22 with 23 they went back to the beginning (Hartnell.) Please reply directly, since I don't read this list regularly. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 31 Mar 87 2031-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #123 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Mar 87 2031-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #123 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 1 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 123 Today's Topics: Books - Book Review (3 msgs), Films - Star Trek V News, Television - New TV Shows & Doctor Who, Miscellaneous - Whither Boskone? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Mar 87 17:21:06 GMT From: clemens!mark@rutgers.rutgers.edu Subject: Book Review The Adventures of Sam Toyer by Isaac Asimov Yes, good ol' doc Asimov has come out with another novel. This one is aimed at kids mostly and definitely reads like one of the kid series like Nancy Drew or the Hardy Boys or something like that. Anyway, the story is basically about Sam Toyer (as if you couldn't guess) who is a cadet in the Space Marines. There are obvious references to other adventures which I assume we will see if this turkey sells but in this story, he is on leave from the Marines and meets up with his girlfriend Becky. The two of them decide to go exploring an abandoned dilithium mine on an asteroid. They get lost inside the mine and strange things start to happen. As the story progresses we get told that they are being pursued by an old miner named Ojo who refused to leave when the empire abandoned the mine. Apparently, for some reason, Ojo and Sam are old enemies and Ojo is out to kill Sam and Becky. As I said earlier, this one is a turkey. I never really liked Asimov's writing anyway and his juveniles are just plain badly written and silly. I would give this one a -4 on the -4 to +4 scale. The one problem is, as I was reading this book, the story seemed vaguely familiar as if I had read it once before. Could this book possibly be a reprint of some kind? I checked the copyright page and there was no indication of an earlier printing. Any ideas?? Mark R. Clemens Mississippi State ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 16:26:37 EST From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Book Review clemens!mark@rutgers.rutgers.edu writes: > The Adventures of Sam Toyer > by Isaac Asimov [plot synopsis deleted] >The one problem is, as I was reading this book, the story seemed >vaguely familiar as if I had read it once before. Could this book >possibly be a reprint of some kind? I checked the copyright page >and there was no indication of an earlier printing. Any ideas?? Sounds like it could be an old Lucky Starr story that he dredged up out of an old file and polished off. I guess when you reach your peak as Asimov did several years ago, ya gotta do something to get a buck... Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 87 16:36:13 GMT From: ecl!leeper@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Book Review clemens!mark@rutgers.rutgers.edu writes: >The one problem is, as I was reading this book, the story seemed >vaguely familiar as if I had read it once before. Could this book >possibly be a reprint of some kind? I checked the copyright page >and there was no indication of an earlier printing. Any ideas?? It sounds somewhat familiar to me too although I can't place it. I have the impression that it was written under a pseudonym though... Evelyn Leeper ...ihnp4!ecl!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 87 09:02 PST From: Wall.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: STV News William Shatner, in a recent interview for Playgirl magazine, revealed much, including the plot of STV, to be released for Christmas '88. "I pitched this story idea for STIV," says Shatner, who will not only produce, direct and star in STV, but will co-write the screen-play with Nimoy as well, "they were all set on this Search thing. But, when plans came for STV, Paramount decided they much rather go with my story idea than to shoot the movie without a Captain Kirk." In STV, the Enterprise will be captured by The Providers. For those of you who don't remember them from the TV series, they were the beings thought to be responsible for spreading various humanoid lifeforms around the galaxy. They also built the asteroid deflector that was the basis for the episode, "The Paradise Syndrome", in which Kirk gets amnesia and marries a local native. The Providers take the entire crew off the Enterprise in one massive teleportation beam and destroy the ship. The crew is set down on a desert planet called Estol and turned over to the local ruler, Fareaux as slaves. The crew is given the task to rebuild a major city that has been destroyed by war. Kirk, Spock and McCoy manage to escape from slavery and into the desert where Spock's desert survival skills are necessary to keep them alive. While in the desert, they come to a large mountain which they explore in the hopes of finding shelter from a coming storm. Instead, behind some overgrowth, they find one of the relay stations of The Providers and attempt to learn the language and the machines sufficiently to communicate with them. Spock makes several mistakes including some done strictly for laughs and presses the wrong buttons (he's still not completely healed and is still taking "guesses") causing the machinery to explode. In the explosion, Kirk is seriously burned on the face and throat and is unable to speak for the rest of the movie until McCoy gets him back to a Starfleet Sickbay. [Shatner claims that Deforrest insisted: "4 movies with nothing but straight lines was enough"]. With Kirk unable to speak, Spock forms a Vulcan mind-meld with him so they may communicate telepathically. The explosion does not go unnoticed however, and through the burning shrubs, they hear the voice of one of the Providers. This particularly Provider is sympathetic towards them and offers assistance to them and transportation back to the Federation but only if Fareaux agrees to let the crew go free. The three of them go to Fareaux, pretending to be messengers of the Providers and asking him to release the crew. He doesn't believe them and demands proof. Spock uses his knowledge and the chemicals in McCoy's medkit to create a couple of minor "miracles" as proof. Fareaux still doesn't believe them and orders them to prison and the three once more must escape to the desert. Meanwhile, the other familiar crew members have problems of their own. Scotty keeps getting beaten for speaking out about the faulty engineering of the buildings; Uhura has been taken to Fareaux's harem where she has been chosen to be his next bride; Sulu and Chekov are being tortured in Fareaux's prisons for daring to strike one of the foremen. Meanwhile, Kirk, Spock and McCoy sneak a message to one of the crewman to relay a message to the palace that unless Fareaux releases the crew, he will be visited by plagues of wild animals. Spock and McCoy have figured out how to use the chemicals they have with them to attract alien beasts and insects and lure them wherever the want. When Fareaux still refuses, they lure beasts and insects into the palace and the fields causing massive problems. The creatures eat most of the crops and disrupt the reconstruction of the city. They also bring with them many diseases that Fareaux's people have no defense for (but the Starfleet crew do, of course). With many of Fareaux's people dying of disease and starvation, he finally relents and agrees to let the Federation crew go free. The crew gets a transport ship from the Provider who agreed to help them and they leave the planet. However, before they get very far, Fareaux realizes that he has been tricked and contacts the rest of the Providers who give him and his army, war ships to track down the crew. The last few scenes of the movie are your typical space battle scenes. Suffice it to say that the Federation wins again and the crew head back to Starfleet Headquarters where Kirk is severely reprimanded and is demoted again to the rank of Commander, and Spock is made Captain of the new Enterprise, NCC1701-B. Shatner said that one of the highlights of the film would be a special effect of a faked "Angel of Death" striking down the first-born children of the natives but the special effects team of Dykstra and Trumbel haven't come up with a way of doing it. Suggestions have been made to look at the collected works of Cecil B. DeMille or Irwin Allen. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 11:04:18 PST From: UGH@lsmft.arpa Subject: New TV shows I just saw an article in the Los Angeles Times about some of the new shows that will be on television next season. No dates or times were mentioned but here is a list of the shows: "My Favorite Martians" Starring: Bill Bixby, Ray Walston and Chevy Chase The story takes place several years after the first show supposedly ended. Uncle Martin gets visited by a research team of scientists from Mars who decide to stay and live on Earth. Chevy Chase plays the head scientist of the research team. "Star Trek: The Next Generation" Starring: ?????? Since this has been posted on the net before I won't say anything else about it. "Flash Gordon" Starring: Ed Begley Jr. (Flash), Melody Anderson (Dale Arden Gordon), David Opatashu (Zarkov), John Colicos (Ming), Noah Hathaway (Jim "Sparks" Gordon). Yes, the hero from the early days of SF returns in a new series. Melody Anderson you may recall played Dale in the 1980 movie so she is a good choice for the role. Noah Hathaway also may be familiar to fans of Battlestar Galactica. The season begins with the revelation that Ayotollah Khomeini is really Ming in disguise. Most of the action for the first season is on Earth. If the show is a success, more money will be budgeted so that Ming (and company) can return to Mongo. The special effects for the show will be done by Industrial Light and Magic. "Lost in Space" Starring: Mark Goddard (Major Don West), Marta Kristen (Judy Robinson West), Matthew Laborteoux (Adam West), Janet Smith (Deena Freeman), Bob May (the voice of the robot) Another revival show, Mr. and Mrs. Robinson have both died in the intervening years. Will Robinson became a space hippy and travels the universe in a beat-up ship he found and repaired. There are plans to have him appear in guest shots although Billy Mumy seems reluctant. Penny was kidnapped by some aliens and the remaining members of the crew are searching for her. Dr. Smith finally did something stupid enough to get himself (and his alien wife) killed. Apparently, Janet is his wacky, half-alien daughter. All of the names here should be familiar to tv viewers. Aside from Mark Goddard, Marta Kristen and Bob May who were all in the original, you may remember Matthew Laborteoux as the computer genius in "The Whiz Kids." Deena Freeman played Ted Knight's niece, April, in "Too Close for Comfort" as well as many commercial spots. "The Lensman" Starring: ????? This show is a new show currently being filmed in England by Gerry Anderson. He is once more reviving his SuperMarionation puppets which made him so famous to bring us new stories about E.E. Doc Smith's Lensmen. "Agent of the Terran Empire" Starring: Erin Gray Erin plays Diane Flandry who is a female James Bond-ish type character. The show is loosely based on Poul Anderson's famous Flandry stories. Well, that's all that is listed that is relevant to the topic. Also look for about 3 more nighttime soaps and many new sitcoms to appear. ugh@lsmft.arpa Livermore Systems Magnetic Fusion Terminus Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory PO Box 5590 L-516 Livermore, California 94550 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 00:31:31 EST From: costell%YMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Sylvester McCoy Fired!!!!!! I have just heard from some friends of mine in Great Britain that Sylvester McCoy who had recently been chosen to be the replacement for Colin Baker has been fired even before filming has started. Lord Grade said, "We received many letters from the colonies about our choice of a replacement for Colin Baker. Many fans were concerned that we would start having villains named 'Tweety' or 'Spike' as a sort of 'in' joke. Many more were concerned that the scriptwriters would start using lines like: 'I'm a time-lord not an engineer'. "To avoid any possible confusion we have fired Mr. McCoy and have instead hired John Cleese. Many viewers, both here and abroad, will recognize Mr. Cleese from the Monty Python comic troupe. He is also a very fine dramatic actor and has done Shakespeare. His unique blend of skill, talent and comic wit will add a great deal to the show. "The first story to be filmed will concern the regeneration, naturally. But it will take place during the time of the Spanish Inquisition. There should be no surprize to the viewer as to whom will play the role of Tourqemada." I just hope that they don't get extremely silly with the show. With John Cleese around we could see the Doctor develop a "silly walk" or even began searching for a 40ft tall hedgehog named Spiney Norman but I pray they don't descend to that level. On the other hand, Cleese will bring back the charm and wit that has been sorely lacking since Tom Baker left the show. Costell@YMass.Bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 87 12:40:52 GMT From: ree@cca.CCA.COM (Ronald Eastland) Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report Since I seem to be one of the few people who have access to the net who is currently a member of NESFA, I have been asked by the club to make an official statement regarding the recent problems we have been having with planning future Boskones. The committee at a recent secret meeting, voted unanimously to continue holding the convention in Boston. We have a fine and well known tradition of running one of the best cons on the east coast and particularly the Boston area. However, as most of you have heard by now, none of the hotels in the Boston, Mass. area are willing to host the convention. Naturally we are very upset, but we believe we have an alternative solution. Next year's Boskone, Boskone 25, will be held in Boston, England. This insures that Boskone will still be in Boston and will still be the best run con on the east coast. The east coast of England. If things work out, we will make this move permanent. We feel confident that moving to Boston, England will solve our attendance problems as many of the fans who now travel to Boskone will not be able to afford the trip to England. Only the truly dedicated fans will now attend. We will also be eliminating the film and video program because of differences between English and American equipment. The Art show will also be cancelled as many artists typically mail in their work and we don't believe the postal service can be trusted for overseas delivery of valuable art. Although if the artists or their agents are willing to bring the art themselves, we will be more than happy to arrange a smaller art show. Since only the wealthier fans will attend the con due to the costs, the artists would be able to set higher minimum bids and make enough money to pay for their own expenses plus a profit. For a brief time, we considered Boston, Georgia but felt that changing our club name to GASFA just didn't sound right. We can save a great deal of money by buying white-out and changing it to ESFA by eliminating the "N" (or "New" where the name is spelled out in full). This means we can save a lot of money and avoid having new stationery, flyers, T-shirts, underwear, and other printed materials redone. We hope that this is a temporary solution as our clubhouse is currently in Massachusets and we don't believe we can raise enough money by selling it to purchase a new one in England. Although the real estate agent did mumble something about "one born every minute" when we discussed the possibility. We certainly hope we haven't offended anyone and, as I said, this is for one year only. Although if we have, we really don't care. This decision does not affect Noreascon III since we are in the process of building a new hotel in the Boston area to host the '89 Worldcon and all future Boskones. I recommend buying your memberships immediately since by the time the building is fully constructed, memberships may get raised to an amount in excess of $1000. Ronald E. Eastland, III ARPA: ree@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!ree ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 31 Mar 87 2045-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #124 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Mar 87 2045-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #124 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 1 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 124 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Mail Problems (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - The VW Time Beetle & A Message from the Emperor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Apr 87 00:44:31 EST From: Saul Subject: Major Problems with mail addresses Lately, we have been experiencing some major problems with mail going out to the networks. It seems with all of the different networks and protocols around, there have been cases where we just can't talk to machines that we used to be able to send mail through. I am getting back at least 20 messages per digest about failed mail. The following message I received from the system administrator at another site which just shows the kinds of problems we are having. If there are any network mail hackers out there who can help me solve these problems I (and the rest of the subscribers) would certainly appreciate your help. If this continues, SF-LOVERS could cease to exist simply because we can't send mail onto the network any more. Saul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 87 07:36:21 -0800 To: sf-lovers@red.rutgers.edu.terra.area3 Subject: Fix to biod problem From: postmaster@ncc.igpu.net What is going on with the networks in terra.area3? We are getting an increasing number of complaints from subscribers to your mailing list. It seems that they are unable to figure out how to respond to messages that appear in the group. We thought we had figured out what you were doing. Apparently your addresses gave the entire geneology of the recipient, with successive generations being separated by !'s. Thus we need only locate your oldest living ancestor, and the message would be forwarded appropriately. (A number of people have commented favorably upon the apparent virility of certain of your people, particularly Mr. Seismo, and the somewhat oddly named Ihnp4.) Recently however we have been seeing an increasing number of addresses where portions of the ancestry consist of strings of names put together with dots. Sometimes these appear alone, and sometimes as components of the geneology. Quite frankly, we are unable to see any pattern to the way in which they are combined. We have considered various theories. The most popular is that a decline in morals has caused the ancestry of certain individuals to be uncertain, and that this is a way of specifying several possibilities. Apparently the ancestries of Messrs. Edu and Gov are particularly uncertain. However we are not at all sure of this theory. If you wish us to continue carrying messages from you, it is essential for you to clarify your addressing conventions. Sincerely, Ixthun Pardunk, Supervisor of Network Routing Network Control Center Intergalatic Postal Union ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 87 06:18:42 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.edu (Jim "Jack" Frost) Subject: The VW Time Beetle TIME BEETLE Originally by Paul Farah Recreated from memory by Jim Frost (with modifications) I knew it was going to be one of those days from the moment I woke up. You see, my alarm clock was making an odd ringing noise instead of its normal soft music. What I didn't know was just how bad the day would be. I left my house for work at about 8:15am, which was about normal. I hopped into my rather antiquated VW Bug and putted along to work. The day went smoothly enough. I only thought about how much I hated my job for 6 hours instead of eight, since the first floor caught fire at about 3pm and we were evacuated, allowing me to go home two hours early. As I drove into my driveway, things began to get weird. My VW was parked where I always park it. The problem is, I was DRIVING my bug. I parked beside my VW and hopped out. My curiousity was at a dangerous level. I opened the door to the other vw, and climbed in. Why not? It's MY car, even if my car was parked beside it. But the dashboard was like a science fiction movie gone wild. There were knobs, dials, and other gadgets everywhere. Completely engrossed, I began looking around the car. Finally, I found a small booklet. I began to read it. Thank you for purchasing the VWT101 Time Beetle. You have made a fine choice. The VWT101 is cabable of both temporal and spatial displacement, using dihydrogen oxide for fuel. Spatial movement is accomplished using normal frictional methods. The methods used for temporal move- ment, however, have been significantly improved since the VW100 was introduced. Among the enhancements are .... From there on in, it got too technical for me, and I skipped over to the section entitled "simple operating instructions". To undergo temporal movement, you should first fasten your seatbelt. Sure, everyone knows that. Bumpy stuff, time traveling. Then, set your intended temporal destination using the panel marked "temporal destination." I looked around. Yup, there it was. Right about where the radio should be. I wondered where the radio was, but never did find it. Temporal displacement is measured using the normal calendar, although this is not accurate for all time frames. When setting the day, the display will automatically skip those periods which cannot be reached (such as September 3 through 13, 1752). When the temporal destination has been set, start the VWT101 and push the button marked "displace." The time spent in travel is proportional to the length of the dis- placement, but should not last more than a few seconds for jumps of up to a million years. For additional information on temporal displacement, please see "Rules and Regulations on the Use of Temporal Vehicles", which may be obtained from any government office or licensing bureau. Fine. I now own a time machine. What in hell do I do with a time machine? My mind was buzzing. Of course! Go for a trip. I wondered how much fuel the thing had left, but finally gave up on trying to check, since the thing used water anyway and I could probably come up with more water if I needed it. Where should I go? How about to my own birthday, in the year 2050? Why not. So I set the thing to November 15, 2050, and sat back for a second before hitting the panic button. "HEY! WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING?" I nearly jumped clean out of my skin. I was looking at myself through the window. What's more, I was screaming at myself. This was too much. I snapped on the ignition (the thing used a key, and the key was still there), noted that it ran about as loudly as my normal car, and slammed it into reverse. "Come back here!" yelled the other me. He was now behind me, waving his arms and yelling frantically. Still shook up, I kept the thing floored for about two blocks. Finally slowing down, I remembered about the time travel part of this car. I hit the button. Nothing happened. Well, really lots of things happened, but the trip was wholly uneventful. No noise. No flashy lights. Nothing. Disappointing, after all the movies I'd seen. The scenery was much more interesting. In an instant, the road had been transformed into a parking lot. There were tall buildings all around me. Directly in front of me was a lot with a dirty sign, which read "used cars." I climbed out of my car and began looking around. The general state of things was disarray. There weren't a lot of people around, and they all ignored me. They weren't dressed particularly strangely, though this one girls had a suit with a hole.... Hmm. Have to go out with her someday. Unimpressed with the future, I hopped back in the car. I reset the temporal thingy to 5pm the day I had left, and hit the button. Things looked normal once again. I drove back to my house and pulled into the driveway. There were no cars here. Becoming distressed, I got out and began looking around. As I walked around the garage, I heard a car drive up. Not thinking anything of it, I kept looking around. Everything looked all right. I came around the garage and saw two VW's. Someone was in my VW! I ran up to the window and screamed, "HEY! WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING?" Then I noticed that I was in the car. The me in the car looked very startled, quickly started the car, and took off down the street. I tried telling myself to stop the car, but it was no use. Upset, I turned around and saw myself. This was getting to be too much. "Are you me?" I asked. "Yes," I replied. "What is going on?" I asked. "I'm not quite sure myself," was my response. I was very confused at this point, and the world began to spin. Things went black. I woke up inside the garage. About an hour had passed. I opened the door and looked out. Two VW's were parked there. After looking inside, I figured out which one was the time travelling beetle. I climbed in again, drove around the corner, and sat for a minute to think. This all made no sense. Where did the car come from? Since no answers came to mind, I dropped the question. I was hungry now. Supper would have been at about 5:30. Suddenly, a bright idea hit me. I set the temporal displacement gauge for 5:30, and pushed the button. The I got out of the car and walked home. I have no I dea why I didn't drive home (or even why I drove around the corner in the first place). Walking up to the house, I saw two VW bugs. Someone was in one of them, and another person suddenly ran up to it and screamed something unintelligible. The vw started up, screeched out of the driveway, and screamed off down the street. The person who had been screaming at the car turned around as I cam up to him. He was me again. "Are you me?" he asked. "Yes," I replied to myself. "What is going on?" he asked. "I'm not quite sure myself," I replied. He went suddenly white and passed out. I dragged myself into the garage. Then I left, walking around the corner to where I'd left the car. I drove the car back, put it in the driveway next to the other car, and went inside to eat. I really was hungry. A little while later, I heard a car start up. Busy eating, I neglected to look outside. I didn't want to know if I'd be out there. When I got up the next morning, only my normal car was parked in the driveway. I guessed that it had all been a dream. I jumped into my car and drove off to work. But I had work off -- the building had been cordoned off. It seems there had been a fire.... Jim Frost UUCP: harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs BITNET: cscc71c@bostonu ------------------------------ From: Emperor@Empire.Galactic.Gov < The Dark Master > Subject: Greetings Date: A long time ago I am the new Emperor of the Galaxy and you are my new subjects. I wish you all to know of my exploits that have made me take my destined place as your master. I was born as Luke Skywalker, orphaned water farmer. I became involved with Obi-Wan Kenobi, a Jedi master and found my destiny intertwined with the Force. The Force is power. It is radiated by all things. I can control that power and use it for my desires. That power makes me the master. You see, the Emperor before me had succeeded in turning my father, Darth Vader, to the Dark side of the Force and enslaving his will. He thought that he could force me to kill my father and subjugate me. He wanted me to take my father's place. How little did he realize how much of the Force I was already familiar with. I defeated them both and took the Emperor's place as was my destiny. I was also able to destroy the rebel fleet after destroying Han Solo. Now I have settled down and taken my sister Leia as my bride. Our children should be very strong with the force. They will take my place when I grow old, but until then we will rule the universe, as is our destiny. I had to bend a few necks in order to make the Empire recognize me now that the old Emperor and my father are gone, but they already knew of the power of the Dark side, so it didn't take long. So now I am thinking of taking over your galaxy. Do any of you have the Force as your ally? Oedipus Vader The Darkest Emperor ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 2 Apr 87 0835-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #125 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Apr 87 0835-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #125 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 125 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Mea Culpa, Books - Atwood (4 msgs) & DeCamp & Foglio & Garrett & Zelazny (2 msgs) & Writer Inquiries & Ace Specials (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Apr 87 08:28:23 EST From: Saul Subject: Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa The reason I say that twice is because issues #123 and #124 were both April Fool's issues perpetrated by yours truly. #124 I though was the outright "ha-ha" type of stuff and #123 was intentionally made to be more subtle. For those who are curious, I wrote all of the stuff appearing in #123 with the help of a few friends. Issue #124 was mostly contributions from others. To those of you who sent me suggestions that didn't get used: next time please mail them to sf-lovers-request@red. The way you sent them, they were automatically forwarded to half the network and thereby ruined the element of surprise necessary for April Fool's jokes. I hope every one enjoyed them. If you didn't catch the jokes, go back and re-read. April Fools! Saul ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 20:33:44 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: The Handmaiden's Tale The Handmaiden's Tale by Margaret Atwood Ballantine, 2/87, 395 page In the near future, partly because of a decline in human fertility (due to both social and environmental factors) a new wave of fundamentalism sweeps the United States. When that wave crests, the United States is the Republic of Gilead, those who cannot or will not live with the new order are destroyed, and women are chattel. The narrator is a woman. The time is the near future; most of the population remembers a freer and more humane past, and would prefer it. But the fundamentalist takeover is so smooth and is enforced so brutally, that the time to resist is past before people realize it. The techniques of terror and oppression are Americanized, but readily recognizable. When we read of Nazi Germany or the Gulag we are reading cautionary stories -- but we are also receiving lessons. We are learning the state of the art in the technology of enslaving a domestic population. If this were a science fiction book, what I have outlined would probably constitute part of the first chapter. Then, having established the background, the author would go on to the actual story. Margaret Atwood establishes the background in a more leisurely fashion: it takes her close to four hundred pages. This isn't a story that takes place in an imagined society; it is a portrait of that society, a more careful, more carefully drawn, portrait than we are used to seeing. The portrait is understated and believable. The narrator is Offred. 'Offred' is not the name she was born with; that vanished with her old legal status. The name signifies that she belongs to the household of Fred. She isn't interested in describing or explaining what happened to the United States, although we learn much of that from her narrative. She describes her own experiences. Most of her experiences have not been dramatically horrifying. Rather, she is stunned, numbed. Three years earlier she was living a life about as different from ours as ours is from that our parents led at our age. Now she is Offred, and fresh corpses of people who disapprove of the new dispensation are on daily display. Comparisons between this book and 1984 are inevitable, and justified. It seems clear that many of the parallels are deliberate. But this book is less fantastic than 1984, more believable, more banal. This isn't a science fiction book. People who pick it up expecting one will probably be disappointed. But a jaded science fiction author, in racing past the 'setup' to the action, would not give us as close and as powerful a view of this society, the potential for which may be clearly seen in our own. On the other hand, a jaded author of science fiction would probably have known better than to compromise the impact and integrity of the book by ending it with one of those tired 'scientists discussing the manuscript centuries later' epilogues. I recommend reading this book. And if it hasn't captured you after the first fifty pages or so, it won't. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 00:34:15 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: The Handmaiden's Tale This is not a flame, I think, but a *very* strong disagreement. "The Handmaid's Tale" is *most* *certainly* science fiction! Absolutely! What is science fiction, anyway? Skipping all the niggling discussion of science fiction vs. fantasy vs. sf, etc. which sf-lovers has been discussing; how can you say that this book is not sf? It takes place in the future, the transition from our society to its society is outlined, it uses this future society to reflect upon our own. You seem to be saying that "The Handmaid's Tale" is not sf because it isn't paced like most sf books, is more detailed in its sociological description than most sf books, and has an ending that you think sf books wouldn't have. (An aside: I found the ending perhaps the most chilling part of the book, and not lame at all.) These aren't reasons to say that it is not sf; merely to say that it is not like most sf that you have seen. Certainly, anyone picking up "The Handmaid's Tale" looking for spaceships, aliens, or wizards with talking dragons will be disappointed. But that is not all the science fiction is. I am coming down heavily on this, because there is a real tendency among both sf fans and the "mainstream" to assume that if it's really good, by mainstream literary standards, it can't be sf. I see that in your review, Dani, and I cannot disagree more. "The Handmaid's Tale" is one of the best science fiction novels I have read in ten years. It has been nominated for the Hugo award for best sf novel of 1986. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 02:44:04 GMT From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: The Handmaiden's Tale A small nitpick; Handmaid's Tale has not been nominated for a Hugo (at least not yet; the postmark deadline for nominations is tomorrow). It has been nomiated for a Nebula, the award given, nominated, and voted on by the Science Fiction Writers of America. tyg ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 19:20:21 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: The Handmaiden's Tale Shoshana Green: >This is not a flame, I think, but a *very* strong disagreement. >"The Handmaid's Tale" is *most* *certainly* science fiction! >Absolutely!.... >there is a real tendency among both sf fans and the "mainstream" to >assume that if it's really good, by mainstream literary standards, >it can't be sf. I've tried and failed to come up with a reasonable definition of science fiction which excludes "The Handmaiden's Tale". Still, although I made the wrong distinction, I think there is a distinction to be made. And it's not based on quality: I've read better books (by mainstream or sf literary standards) which were clearly sf-not-mainstream, and I'm sure you have too. There is a difference between sf and mainstream fiction (perhaps unfortunately). They tend to *feel* different, primarily in what they expect of the reader. "The Handmaiden's Tale", though it straddles the boundary between the two kinds of fiction, has the feel of the latter. Not better, not worse, different. "The Handmaiden's Tale" is a good book. Not 'good for a science fiction book', or 'good by mainstream standards'. Science fiction, yes, but it has the feel of Imagination Stretching for People Not Accustomed to the Exercise. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 87 13:48 CDT From: Never Normal! Subject: Wall of Serpents I can't pass up a chance to try to beat Jerry Boyajian, but in addition to the three printings he listed, the Wall of Serpents was printed (in two parts) in The Dragon magazine (Gary Gygax' and TRS' house magazine about D&D) in the late seventy's. My copies are at home, but I believe they were printed in 1978. John Mellby jmellby%ti-eg@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 01:28:17 GMT From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: Spring/summer titles from Donning/Starblaze (more!) The new Starblaze book by Phil Foglio that was untitled in the press release will almost certainly be the next book in the "Buck Godot-Zap Gun For Hire" series. Also, Phil's said that he'll be leaving the illustrating of the Myth- books soon; a combination of being busy with other stuff and getting tired of getting the manuscripts so late that he doesn't have time to do what he feels is his best work. tyg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 87 16:56:42 CST From: C418433%UMCVMB.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Randall Garrett With all the dreadful rumors floating about, I hesitate to ask, but: Does anyone know exactly what happened to Randall Garrett? The references in the The_Best_of_Randall_Garrett and the Gandarlian (sp?) cycles are rather vague. Joseph Curwen C418433@UMCVMB.Bitnet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 87 11:28:05 est From: Bard Bloom Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #114 > Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes: >>The Prince, a teleporter and Temporal Fugue master, based his >>powers solely on these attributes and his native intelligence and >>wisdom. I don't recall him ever using a machine at all in the >>books. Horus was a telekinetic and telepath, as well as a fugue >>artist. He didn't bother with machines either. > > I seem to recall that the Prince who was a Thousand used lasers > and possibly x-ray devices in an attempt to destroy the Nameless. For that matter, the Prince Who Was a Thousand built the Houses of Life and Death (as well as the other N-2 Houses which were destroyed), and is at least indirectly responsible for many of the magical gadgets in the book. This is consistent with most mythology: there are gods who teach humanity about various wonders of technology and control over the environment (fire, writing, agriculture, sex, laundry machines, etc.). I seem to remember that the Prince in _Creatures_ was Thoth, and that Thoth in Egyptian mythology was responsible for writing at least. Bard Bloom ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 09:10:14 PST (Tuesday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness Spoiler material: 'Creatures of Light and Darkness' and 'Lord of Light' Wayne Throop (dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu) writes (most thought provokingly, I might add): >> The most interesting of all, however, was the Steel General, who >> seemed to have a power unrelated to machines, magic, or >> paranormal abilities. It appeared that he was simply incapable >> of being permanently destroyed, no matter what. This power was >> not related to any instrumentality in particular, but instead to >> his adherence to high ideals and ethical standards. Thus, there >> was always someone willing to put him back together. > >But again, he was no god. In fact, his roots were traced back and >the timeline of CoLaD is shown to be the future of our own >timeline. The Steel General was involved in revolutions that >occured in our own time. (Usually on the losing side.) Who says? He looked just as much a god to me as Anubis or Osiris. He was as powerful as most of them, more immortal than either of the other two. He would never say it, of course, but that's part of his mystique. >Obscure compulsions, like the fact that Osiris was envious of Set's >relationship with the Red Witch, and resented the fact that she was >always ready to go back to Set if/when she could. Mighty plans >motivated by greed for power and Anubis's spite of all the other >Angels. And if Set doesn't have "lust for battle", then I don't >know who does. They still seemed obscure to me. The prince is wise and altruistic beyond all belief. Madrak seems primarily motivated by wishy-washiness, of all things. I got the feeling that Vramin, the green magician, was mainly interested in being clever and tricky. Osiris and Anubis were interested in power which was not immediately beneficial to them as far as I could see. Now in LoL, The gods were interested in partying, having neat toys, and only secondarily interested in power (except for Ganesha, who was also obscurely compelled) except as much as necessary to assure continued good times. In CoLaD, they were after a subtle sort of galactic dominance or similar intangibles, unless Anubis really enjoyed partying with and ruling a bunch of corpses. Perhaps I just don't have the proper aspirations... In any case, I think both books make a single point. To be a god requires nothing more than a particular sense of ruthlessness (even with good intentions) and a lot of power, from whatever source. Nothing else. Kurt Piersol ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 17:25:33 GMT From: osupyr!rhr@rutgers.edu (The Fugitive Guy) Subject: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries I have a good question for all of the fantasy critics/aficionados out there. I was wondering if Alexander Lloyd ( of the Black Cauldron series ) has written any other fantasy works. I would also like the name of the books in the Black Cauldron series that are not listed here. The ones I remember are The Black Cauldron Taran Wanderer The High King The other author I am wondering about won a Newberry award (I think) for one of her books in "The Dark is Rising" series. Her first name is Susan. Also, the names of the books in the series would be appreciated. The only title I can remember is "Silver on the Tree", which was the last book of the series. Thanks in advance, Email if possible ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 04:38:39 GMT From: jhunix!ins_bjjb@rutgers.edu (Jared J Brennan) Subject: Re: The "New Ace Science Fiction Specials" - where are they? Ace has recently (past couple of months) released _The Hercules Text_, which is in the line of Ace Specials. So, obviously, the line continues to exist. The previous titles were... _Green Eyes_ , Lucius Shepard _Home From the Shore_ , Kim Stanley Robinson _Neuromancer_ , William Gibson _Palimpsests_ , ? _Them Bones_ , Howard Waldrop _In the Drift_ (?) , ? _The Hercules Text_ contained a sort of apology in the foreword for the paucity of titles in the line. Something along the lines of, while there have been more books coming out recently, they haven't been good enough. Jared Brennan ins_bjjb@jhunix (on Bitnet) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 20:32:16 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: The "New Ace Science Fiction Specials" - where are they? ins_bjjb@jhunix.UUCP (Jared J Brennan) writes: > The previous titles were... > _Green Eyes_ , Lucius Shepard > _Home From the Shore_ , Kim Stanley Robinson > _Neuromancer_ , William Gibson > _Palimpsests_ , ? > _Them Bones_ , Howard Waldrop Actually they are (in chronological order): THE WILD SHORE by Kim Stanley Robinson GREEN EYES by Lucius Shepard NEUROMANCER by William Gibson PALIMPSESTS by Carter Scholz and Glenn Harcourt THEM BONES by Howard Waldrop IN THE DRIFT by Michael Swanwick THE HERCULES TEXT by Jack McDevitt Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 2 Apr 87 0854-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #126 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Apr 87 0854-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #126 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 126 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 23 Mar 87 01:44:21-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: SF Cons vs. Hotels There has been a great deal of talk on the net about the future of Boskone and/or WorldCon '89. I do not not want to discuss the alleged decisions of NESFA; it's their party but we'll sigh if we want to. What I would like to address is the possible attitudes of hotels towards large SF Cons, as opposed to say, cons of car dealers. Some people have been saying that hotels like SF cons because fen don't cause much damage. This does not hold up. Hotels require conventions (SF and otherwise) to post deposits to cover damage by attendees. In fact, if convention members trash a slightly grubby room, the hotel comes out ahead, since the repair, paid for by the con, brings the room up to new condition. If damage were a real problem, then the many other groups which cause MORE damage then fen could never get space. The only damage which really bugs hotels is that which prevents a function space from being rented immediately after the con. Fans don't bring the hotel much money/body. Fans are poor compared with the expense-account conventioneers. We tend to 'tuple up on rooms something fierce: I would estimate that the mean night population at Boskone was 3/room, and very few paid the extra fee for extra people. We do not patronize the hotel restaurants much, especially the better ones with their higher profit margins. We do not tip well: how many fen remember the chambermaids? We don't much attend the hotel bars, yet expect corkage fees to be waived. We don't use room service. We expect to do our own setup/breakdown, denying to hotel fees for this service. Fans make unusual demands on hotel facilities. A modern, big SF con runs ~24 hours/day, with lulls from 4 AM to 10 AM. We want the restaurants, snack bar, pool, jacuzzi, etc open as late as conceivably possible. Extra security is required, at odd hours (Boskone paid for part of the extra security there). We want the emergency stairways open. Extra staff is required, on overtime. Fans make bad publicity for the hotel (yes! really!). Hotels have regular customers which act as their bread and butter. 'Freaking out the Mundanes' in the elevator is fun, but the hotel fears that they might not come back. At Boskone, they always seem to be flight crew. After the first false alarm, I walked down 20+ flights of stairs followed by a rushed, irate airline pilot, whose opinions of fandom and Sheraton had taken a distinct downturn. Most of the false fire alarms at Boskone may not have been pulled by members, but the vast numbers of fen roaming the halls and stairwells late at night provided the environment which allowed that to happen; at a 'normal' con the non-con kids invading the hotel would have been expelled on short order. Every alarm also caused an automatic turnout by the fire department, who milled around the lobby until each alarm was declared false. Hotels have to be periodically certified by the local FD. Memories of being pulled out of bed 4+ times in a night by a hotel that booked a bunch of maniacs will do marvels for an inspector's powers of observation, allowing him to find violations he could never have spotted otherwise. Looking over the above, if I were a mundane hotel manager, I would be reluctant to book an SF con unless there were no other way I could fill rooms and rent space. The fact that Boskone and Worldcon have to book space so far in advance suggests that SF has a lot of competition for facilities of that size. It's no wonder we're having trouble. Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 87 14:00:15 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Word Fantasy Con as a Species of SF-con Becky Slocombe writes, re the possibility of conventions at a Westin: > The World Fantasy Con that was held in Ottawa (1983?) was held at >the Westin. I can't think of a more beautiful hotel... I wonder >what nice things the World Fantasy Con said that made them look >that attractive? "Sercons" might find themselves better received. This convention is almost totally unlike most people's experience of SF conventions. It is much more like a business convention (including the wearing of ceremonial "doing-business" clothing :-)), and what fannish activity there is on a much more serious level. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 87 17:53:08 GMT From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: Con at a Westin hotel (was Re: Boskone) becky@sq.UUCP writes: >dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes: >>This seems a bit overblown. The Westin has always been too high >>class for any kind of SF convention and has consistently rejected >>all approaches. As for the others of the big three, some >>discussions are > > Not true. The World Fantasy Con that was held in Ottawa (1983?) > was held at the Westin. I can't think of a more beautiful > hotel... I wonder what nice things the World Fantasy Con said > that made them look that attractive? "Sercons" might find > themselves better received. I was at the World Fantasy Con in Ottawa (I think it was in 84, but wouldn't swear to it), and I can tell you exactly what the difference is. World Fantasy Con is a professional convention. NO costumes of any sort allowed in the con, no video program, no really open parties, in short, none of the traditional fannish programming at all. It was interesting to go to and see what happens at it once, but very simply put, this is a con for writers, agents and publishers to get together and talk business. A great many of the panels and discussions were aimed more at writers and artists discussing their craft with each other than at the fans who buy/read their work. From the hotel's viewpoint, in terms of the type of attendees attracted and the type of programming (nothing ran later than midnight), there is very little difference between this con and a convention of stock brokers, or other mundane professional people. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with it being that sort of convention, but comparing it to a traditional fannish convention like Boskone is like comparing apples and oranges. Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy ARPANET: kathy@LL-XN.ARPA or kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211 ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 87 12:34:36 GMT From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) Subject: Re: Boskone From: nylander%eyrie.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Chip) >If there is going to be a major change in programming, however, the >convention organizers have a RESPONSIBILITY to publicize that >LOUDLY and CLEARLY in all pre-convention information and mailings. > >I will be eagerly looking forward to future Boskone information, to >see how this is handled. The present plan is to mail out many thousands of copies of a flyer to the members of the past several Boskones. This would also be sent out in response to any inquiries. Those who have already purchased a Boskone 25 membership will be offered a refund. The flyer will describe how Boskone will be different and will state that it will not be at the Sheraton and will probably be on different dates than previously announced. When the details of Boskone 25 are decided on, there will probably NOT be another mass mailing and an effort will be made to keep the informaion out of prozines. An attempt will be made to "advertise" only via fanzines, semi-prozines, and possibly flyers sent to selected SF cons. Donald E. Eastlake, III ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee +1 617-492-8860 ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 87 16:53:35 GMT From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) Subject: Re: Boskone ddb@viper.UUCP (David Dyer-Bennet) writes: >dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes: >>The Westin has always been too high class for any kind of SF >>convention and has consistently rejected all approaches > >I was at a Boskone held at the Westin a few years ago. At the time >we were told they were being trained in for use as an auxilliary >hotel for the worldcon coming up. The restaurants, in particular, >were very ill- mannered. There has never been a Boskone at a Westin. The 1985 Boskone was held at the Boston Marriott and is presumably what you are thinking of. They had a very narrow dress code and their restaurants refused to serve anyone who was too informally dressed or in costume. When Boskone grew too big for the Park Plaza, where it was in 1984, the only choices were the Sheraton and the Marriott, the only two substantially larger hotels. The Sheraton really wanted us by Ann Broomhead, the chairman of the 1985 Boskone, decided to try the Marriott. I don't know that they were particularly in training for NOreascon. Donald E. Eastlake, III ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee +1 617-492-8860 ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 87 21:52:39 GMT From: djpl%hulk.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (The Wizard) Subject: Re: SF cons [and Boskone] Regarding all the talk about reduced size Boskones, etc. I typically only get to go to one *maybe* two cons, tops. It's not a financial problem, it's more logistical in getting away for a few days with a bunch of friends at the same time. For the con(s) that I go to, I naturally want to go to the best one simply because I can't get to many at all. Up until now, that con was Boskone. There was/is no other con that had as many people, with so much varied programming happening. I've been to 5 of the last 6 Boskones. This last one ['87, XXIV] had in the neighborhood of 4375 people [according to the final Helmuth]. The updates that I got led me to believe it would be just like XXIII. They were wrong. There was no video program, for one, and the films were drastically cut back for another. There were no studio presentations either. The worst part was the dealer's room. The flyer said "about the same size as last year" and that they were being more carefull about book dealers duplicating titles. Well, there was a lot more empty space in the dealer's room because they laid out the tables MUCH differently. Best guesstimate is that this was around 2/3 the size of last year. I read books. I also go to the movies and I watch a little television. When I go to a con, I would like *all* of that. Most of the people I go with feel the same way. There's just something intangible about going to a place with 5000 of your closest friends. Here in NH, there isn't much to do so cons are big events. Maybe Boskone should farm out the events they no longer wish to handle. If they don't want to do a video program, let someone else do it. The point is that Boskone has come to mean more to a lot of people. With them scaling back their scope, there won't be a regional be-all end-all con in this area. It looks like the next one around here will be Noreascon [Worldcon '89]. My belief is that NESFA could make Boskone a joint effort with other groups so that they could get their help and still keep the best con in the Northeast growing. NESFA is complaining that Boskone is too big for them. Well, I, for one, would rather see Boskone continue in the path that it began to take than see it diminished. I can see a lot of 'in memoriam' t-shirts [Veteran of Boskone Glory Years]. Are there any NESFAns listening? If you need help, ask! I'm sure there are groups out there that would love to help make a Boskone. Comments? dj ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 87 22:18:49 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) Subject: Re: SF cons [and Boskone] >My belief is that NESFA could make Boskone a joint effort with >other groups so that they could get their help and still keep the >best con in the Northeast growing. NESFA is complaining that >Boskone is too big for them. Actually, this is already the case. Check the home location of the various people running around with Committee and Staff badges. A large number of them are from way outside the Boston area. Danny Low Hewlett-Packard ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1987 18:43 EST From: Ben Yalow Subject: Nreascon Three News Release 3 The following is an edited copy of N3's News Release #3, Special "Don't Panic" Issue, dated Feb 26, 1987. It is being posted by authorization of N3. This is the third in a series of occasional news releases from Noreascon Three, the 47th World Science Fiction Convention, scheduled to be held in Boston, Mass., on Aug 31-Sept 4, 1989 Hotel Problems: As a result of their perception of events at the recent Boskone, the management of the Sheraton-Boston Hotel have expressed reluctance to be associated with future large science fiction conventions, including Noreascon Three. (This attitude seems to be based not so much on any specific misconduct by attendees, as on a general distaste for the strains imposed on the hotel by a 24-hour convention.) Discussions are under way aimed at persuading the hotel to reconsider this position; no final decision has yet been made. We do of course have an agreement with the hotel, and we hope the situation can be resolved amicably. People are strongly urged not to jump to conclusions. Members should note that we have no problems with the Hynes Convention Center, and that we have now increased our space reservation in the Hynes by 82,000 square feet. We are exploring all our options. Fortunately, the change from two to three years' lead time before the convention has given us plenty of time to deal with the problem. Forthcoming issues of "The Mad 3 Party" (published bimonthly, will have detailed discussions of all we know about the situation. We will issue further news releases whenever we have difinitive information. Only information distributed by the Noreascon Three committee should be regarded as authoritative. Publications: Unfortunately, the developments described above occurred after our Progress Report 1 had gone to press. Copies were available for inspection at Boskone, and a mass mailing to all members went out Feb 26; members should receive it (by bulk mail) over the next couple of months. It contains 64 pages of material, including extensive articles on our Guests of Honor, the first installment of Fred Patten's history of the Worldcon, a membership list, etc. Membership Data: As of Feb 25, Noreascon Three has a total of 2144 members (1902 Attending, 242 Supporting) and 39 Children's Admissions. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 87 05:30:25 GMT From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: SF Cons vs. Hotels OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU writes: > Fans dont bring the hotel much money/body. We do not tip >well: how many fen remember the chambermaids? Businessmen in general tip abysmally also, and in my 10 years experience of business travel I've never heard any of my fellow-travellers suggest that chambermaids should be tipped, these days. Fans often tip pretty well, I watch it happen a lot. >We dont much attend the hotel bars, yet expect corkage fees to be >waived. Then how come the bars are always packed to capacity at conventions? That's where I always have to go to find anybody. On another topic in this general "convention" thread, it has been pointed out to me that the Boskone I remember taking place at the Westin was really in the Marriott. Sorry, people. When I can't even rely on my personal experience maybe I should just give it all up.... David Dyer-Bennet UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 2 Apr 87 0900-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #127 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Apr 87 0900-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #127 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 127 Today's Topics: Books - Kurtz (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Mar 87 07:06:10 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >elliott@aero.UUCP (Ken Elliott) writes: >>Then there's always the color difference when the 'different' >>powers are being used ("Get'chor Color Spectrumizer Here! Only a >>buck! You can't tell the players without a Spectrumizer..." :-) ). > >I don't recall a consistent color differentiation between "Haldane" >and "Deryni" powers, which I gather is what you mean. The color >differences between Kelson's and Charissa's spells I took to be due >to the fact that they were using different spells (and to the fact >that KK had not worked everything out at that point). Up until the last Trilogy, in fact up until the Quest for St. Camber I would have said that there was an absolute relationship between one's heredity and the color of one's power. Haldane power has manifested crimson in EVERY case a color has been mentioned except 1. Cinhil's first use of the Haldane power came out sort of pinkish. He got over it. 2. In Kelson's power ritual he manifested a golden aura. I suspect this was a manifestation of his Deryni potentials reacting against or in accord with the stress produced by the ritual. (Now that I think of it Jehana's shields were mentioned as being golden when she fought Charissa.) So this isn't really an exception. Morgan and Duncan (until the Quest for St. Camber anyway) always manifested Green. Just like Rhys Thuryn. I thought it went along with the Healing Potential. However in the Quest, Dughal's aura is golden and Duncan's has turned to silver. Of course sence by the genetics Dughal would have inherited his power from his mother this isn't a terrible problem. As for Duncan's change of color I note that every other Deryni Bishop we have seen has a silver aura just like Duncan's new one. Dennis Arilan, Camber/ Alister, and Dom Emrys are all that I can think of. Mabye the ritual of investing a bishop can have have that sort of effect on your aura. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Development ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 07:41:42 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Saint Bearand Haldane sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >Recently I posted a comment saying that I thought Bearand Haldane >might have been Deryni (or did I just mail it to someone? I >forget). > .. > descrption of St. Bearand's place in the scheme of things > .. > >Which still leaves the question: why was he canonized? (Miracles >apparently aren't necessary for canonization in the Eleven >Kingdoms; we never hear of the late Bishop Istelyn performing any. >I thought that the Catholic Church required evidence of miracles to >canonize someone (in our universe, this is); can anyone >knowledgable say whether this is so?) What we see from Saint Camber indicates that the post-intereggnum Gwynedd Chirch liked to see evidence of miracles before cannonizeing someone. Since then with fewer Deryni around maybe fewer "miracles" have been poping up, causing them to lower their standards by Kelson's time. Maybe there are reports of minor miracles that we haven't been given the details of. Istelyn was certainly martyred. Now on to St. Bearand. I've had quite a few theories about him myself ranging from more conspiracy theories (not Camberian this time though) to my current favored one. The Conspiracy Theory. What if the Haldane Power was known about before the Interegnum. but was a very well kept secret. It was after the Restoration. If policy then said that the powers were only to be activated in an emergency - Like Moorish Invasions - the moors include deryni and no shame about using the power - and the Knowledge restricted to a few people like the Archbishops. Then the Knowledge could easily have been lost in the Coup. The Coup has been described as a sudden thing - allowing no time for a power activation. I envision something like the human Archbishop of Rhemuth dieing in the sack. A deryni Archbishop might be on the side of the Festils, and in any case once all of the Haldanes are presumed dead - then there is no point in perpetuating the knowledge. Certainly no one in Camber's circle of friends would have been told 80 years later. If the Archbishop's knew why was he cannonized? Perhaps they thought him worthy and didn't want the true story to get out. The Non-Conspiracy Theory (and my current favorite) This one assumes that no one has any inkling that the Haldane potential exists. Note that Cinhil had strong shields long before he was put through a power ritual. Dennis once speculated that the mantal disciplines that a monk learns would tend to bring out hints of latent power. I think that this is what happened with Cinhil. that he achieved a partial awakening on his own. Perhaps something similar happened with St. Bearand. Either he manifested an active ability through his faith. A miracle activated some of his powers (the same way Dennis got through his ordination). Or perhaps just in developing hard shields he got a reputation of being protected by God's Grace. Thus supplying evidence for later cannonization. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 1987 13:33 EST (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: deryni From: elliott@aero.ARPA (Ken Elliott) >Hmmmm, interesting thought; I can't remember if any of the Haldane >line has ever been exposed to merasha. In Deryni Rising, Charissa slipped Brion merasha in his wine. Not enough to incapacitate him, but enough to render him helpless when she struck. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 87 22:49:04 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: deryni vs. human power From: "Stephen R. Balzac" >There is of course the line in the ancient Deryni priesting ritual >that goes (as close as I can recall without the book in front of >me), "We stand outside of time in a universe which is not ours." >Gives rise to some interesting possibilities, no? I think it is: "We stand outside of time in a place not of Earth. As our ancestors before us bade. ..." Everyone seems to have their pet phrases. Dennis seems incapable of doing a ritual without saying ".. We will not walk this path again." with some reference to the ancient ways thrown in. This may be because of his council training. We see only one Council opening except for the emergency meeting about Wencit's challange. They say it there too. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: Fri 20 Mar 1987 12:52 CST From: The Black Knight Subject: Haldane Deryni powers Well...it's been a while since I read Kurtz's books, but from what I remember, there was a passage in one of the first series (don't ask me which...I don't have them here at school) that implied that there were lots of humans that could assume Deryni powers...you didn't have to be of royal blood and also that any member of such a family (Haldane) in this case) could assume them but there was a rumor/legend that only the prince about to ascend to the throne could. This was supposed to keep power struggles between brothers/cousins from occuring... this is just my opinion of what I remember John Nowack MISS042@ECNCDC MISS042%ECNCDC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 87 11:10:26 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: more Kurtz speculations (Spoiler) From: sal%brandeis.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET > But Michaela's mother was Cathan's widow... And Davin and Ansel >were definitely Deryni - and known to be such by the regents >(remember Davin was blamed by the regents for the assassination >attempt on the princes). Oh well, it should be fun to see her >plots twist - and I hope that they improve beyond Deus Ex Machina >once she gets back to the better developed characters (in my >opinion, anyway). I have to admit that I was a little disappointed >by the Quest for St. Camber... This may not have anything to do with this but I seem to recall that there was one group of Deryni that were exempted from the general attainder. Deryni heiresses. If people know or think that James Drummond is human they might forget about the fact that his wife is Deryni. Particularly since she has never made herself terribly obtrusive. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 87 21:18:27 GMT From: maddox@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Carl Greenberg (guest)) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler) beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes: >sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >>I don't recall a consistent color differentiation between >>"Haldane" and "Deryni" powers, which I gather is what you mean. >>The color differences between Kelson's and Charissa's spells I >>took to be due to the fact that they were using different spells >>(and to the fact that KK had not worked everything out at that >>point). > >Up until the last Trilogy, in fact up until the Quest for St. >Camber I would have said that there was an absolute relationship >beween one's heredity and the color of one's power. I would say there's no relationship whatsoever. Arilan had a silver aura. Charissa used blue. In the Duel scene in High Deryni, the warders displayed amber, silver, blue, and crimson. Morgan always used green. Wencit used violet. I would think the aura would just be personal preference rather than anything else. Perhaps it's just your favourite colour, or the one you look best in. >Haldane power has manefested crimson in EVERY case a color has been >mentioned Perhaps since the Haldane power is assumed, the aura colour of crimson comes with it. You might note that crimson is a Haldane colour, and that green is the colour of the Corwyn gryphon. >As for Duncan's change of color I note that every other Deryni >Bishop weve seen has a silver aura just like Duncan's new one. >Dennis Arilan, Camber/ Alister, and Dom Emrys are all that I can >think of. Mabye the ritual of investing a bishop can have have >that sort of effect on your aura. Camber had a silver aura before he became Alister. Evidently aura colour also determines what colour your handfire is, and Duncan's little knockout sphere was green.... hmmm. Then again that was in Deryni Rising, where I gather Katherine hadn't worked everything out... Carl Greenberg maddox@ernie.berkeley.edu ucbvax!ucbernie!maddox ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 1987 00:18 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Deryni Merasha seems to only affect those Deryni or "Haldanes" whose power is available on the conscious level. If you have read the Camber books, in Camber the Heretic, those Deryni who have been "turned off" are unaffected by the drug. Perhaps it functions by somehow overloading those senses related to power use, to the point that it causes a generalized reaction. Just a guess... ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 1987 00:23 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Deryni vs. Human powers Let's not forget the old woman from the short story "Beltane" who also appears in Deryni Checkmate as the cause of Bronwyn and Kevin's deaths. She apparently had powers similar to the Deryni, but was not one herself. In the short story, in fact, it makes reference to her and her husband (who was very much Deryni) teaching one another of the workings of their respective powers. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 19:38:53 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Deryni Magic - the Color of Power Sorry I didn't include the previous views on this but I'm in a rush and didn't feel like cutting it down to the point where inews would take it. Having just come back from break and haveing reread some of the books I give this theory on the color of auras. Every family has its own color. If your powers are Deryni then it is passed down the female line. Morgan and Duncan being healers and having green auras was just a coincidence. Sence Dhugal is a healer and has a golden aura it is shown that green=healer isn't necessarily linked. If your powers are assumed then either it goes down the male line or the color is "initialized" in the assumption ritual. Every Haldane ritual except Cinhil's involved blood. Perhaps Camber intenionally or unintenionally set Cinhils to crimson and the blood kept it that way. Also consider the Eye of Rom and Ring of Fire may have some influence of this trend. Evidence for Rituals having an influence on your aura: EVERY Deryni Bishop and Abbot that we have knowledge of has a silver/white aura. Not every priest does. We see in Camber the Heretic that Dom Emrys was giving out white handfire and then each individual recipient colored it with their own personal color. Duncan's aura was was green before he became a bishop - it was white after. Camber's was white before but that could be coincidence. I don't think white is restricted to bishops. Examples of apparent heredity through the female line: Before he became a bishop both Duncan and Morgan had green auras. They were related Deryniwise through their mothers who were sisters. In Kelson's power ritual he shows a golden aura before he has fully assumed his haldane powers. Probably a reaction from his Deryni potentials. In the Cathedral the next day Jehana's shields are golden. Dhugal's aura is not green. Since the genetics say that his mother must be deryni and Katheryn told me they still hold then Dhugal's aura probably shouldn't be green. Circumstantial but not contradictory in any way. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 19:54:09 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: the names of the Eleven Kingdoms ( Deryni ) There was a question before I left for break as to what were the original Eleven Kingdoms and I refered to a poem in Camber of Culdi. I didn't remember it exactly then and I know I got at least one of the quotes wrong so here is the correct version for those who don't have their books handy: Now these are the names of the Eleven Kingdoms sung rightly well of old: Howicce and Llannedd, and fierce Connait; mountainous Meara, the Land Beyond the River; and Kheldour, the windswept; and pastoral Eastmarch; Tolan, and Torenth, and myth-ridden Mooryn; and lost Caeriesse, which sank beneath the sea; and far-reaching Gwynedd, seat of the Haldane Kings. Lay of the Lord Llewellyn Troubadour to the High-King of Mooryn Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 2 Apr 87 0937-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #128 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Apr 87 0937-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #128 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 128 Today's Topics: Films - Part 1 of Star Wars III Synopsis ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat 21 Mar 87 12:00:50-EST From: Chester Subject: I shall return I got this from Anthony A. Datri ie., AD0R@cmcctb Subject: wars.txt STAR WARS III: FALL OF THE REPUBLIC Story treatment by John L. Flynn Adapted from Part I: "The Adventures of Obi-Wan Kenobi" The Journal of the Whills By George Lucas FADE IN: MAIN AND CREDIT TITLES SUPERIMPOSED ON THE BLACK OF OUTER SPACE -- pinpointed with piercing stars, several moons, and a bright-colored nebulae. As TITLES end -- The following is related in the story, roll-up format: Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, the Old Republic was crumbling away, rotting from the corruption and treachery within. Power-hungry technocrats and wealthy bureaucrats maneuvered and bribed their way into office, while one ambitious senator plotted to destroy the Jedi and rule the galaxy. Hoping to restore virtue and the remembered glory of the Republic, the High Council of Senators dispatched the Jedi Knights - protectorate of justice in the galaxy - on a quest to retrieve the lost Kaiburr Crystal. They believed that the small diamond-like object (which intensified the power of the Force) would unite the disaffected among the people and would destroy the corruption around them. However, within their Council, the evil Senator Palpatine had other traitorous designs. Foreseeing that the Crystal would secure his position as Emperor, Palpatine deceived one of the Jedi Knights and sent him to acquire the Crystal. . . DISSOLVE TO: September 6, 1983 FALL OF THE REPUBLIC Page 2 SCENE 1: Sigma Vulcanus -- a new, evolving world, that is constantly being shook by violent earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, and which is devoid of sentient life-forms. On the molten, volcanic world of Sigma Vulcanus, Anakin Skywalker, a handsome, swarthy man with a dignified stature, makes an important discovery. Using his lightsabre (as the equivalent of a divining rod), he uncovers the legendary Kaiburr Crystal. It pulsates with energy and fills Skywalker with a false sense of power and importance. But before he can savor his triumph, and return the Crystal to Palpatine, he is confronted by his old friend, and fellow Jedi Knight, Obi-Wan Kenobi and requested to explain his actions. Anakin refuses, and instantly, the two knights draw their lethal weapons and become locked in mortal combat. Anakin Skywalker, as if controlled by another force, strikes swiftly in rage, but Obi-Wan Kenobi, the more experienced Jedi, easily deflects the furious blows of his young opponent. "Let go of the Crystal, my friend! Its power will consume you and turn you against the Jedi Knights," Kenobi explains. But the words are un-heeded by the young Jedi, and the conflict continues. Skywalker attacks Obi-Wan again, forcing him to discard his defensive posture. Kenobi parries the thrust and sends Anakin's lightsabre flying out of his hand. At precisely the same moment, a cataclysmic earthquake rocks the planet. The effect is devastating: fissures, in the earth crack open and spout walls of flame; thunder and lightning strike violently from the sky; and several volcanos burst and bubble. The young Jedi struggles to regain his lightsabre, but loses his footing and plunges, still in possession of the Crystal, into a pit of molten lava. Kenobi hurries to the edge of the volcano and looks down; but he is too late to save his former friend: Skywalker is completely engulfed in lava! With tears in his eyes and anguish in his heart, Obi-Wan picks up Anakin's lightsabre and bids a sad farewell to the body of his friend. CUT TO: SCENE 2: Jhantor -- is "the bright center of the universe." Highly populated and technology-oriented, it is an old world of many contrasts: the huge, domed capital, with its elaborate space ports and transportation systems, stands adjacent to an ancient castle and temple. In another part of the galaxy, on the capital world of Jhantor, Palpatine enters his senate chambers - followed closely by a brash, young courtier named Prince Valarium - and assumes his place at the head of a conference table. Valarium stands next to him and whispers in his ear as Palpatine's wizened eyes travel around the table from man to man. Through a terse discussion with his cabinet members and personal guard, Palpatine reveals that he has bribed or blackmailed most of the High Council members into voting for him as President, but he is concerned with three senators who cannot be swayed - Tara Courtney, Mon Mothma, and Bail Organa. He further explains that, once they have been eliminated, he intends to have his troops take over the Spice and Mineral Mines and blockade the commercial shipping lanes. Several of his personal guard nod their approval; however, two young officers stand and voice their disagreement. Lieutenant Motti (bright, young and smartly-dressed) and Commander Tarkin (thin, hatchet-faced with dark eyes) report that Palpatine's military force (which he has genetically engineered on the prison planet) are en route to the Spice Mines and Starports AND that they are ready to take command of the Starfleet; but they fear the swift retribution of the Jedi Knights! "I think I know the best way to deal with that rabble," Palpatine announces, standing and walking over to his cabinet. "It's time that I demonstrate my absolute power--" Taking a large, crystal globe form his cabinet, Palpatine strokes it with his long, well-manicured fingers, then traces the longitude and latitude lines. The object begins to glow, and (with ILM's help) conjures a series of images from the planet Sigma Vulcanus. These images combine and crystallize on the SINGLE image of the dead Anakin Skywalker. LAP DISSOLVE TO: SCENE 3: Sigma Vulcanus Four shadowy figures - adorned only in dark, hooded robes (which conceal their identity) - approach the charred, motionless body of Anakin Skywalker and lift him from his fiery grave. Skywalker's flesh is torn and scabbed, his hair is missing and clumped in disgusting patches. Deep scars trace his face, and his body and limbs are without life. They place him on the ground with great reverence and begin to administer to his injuries in an attempt to bring him back to life. One robed figure motions to the other: "Bring me the herbs and remedies." He actually says nothing but is instantly understood by the others. A third figure sprinkles the body with a powder, while a fourth looks toward the stars and begins to chant in a deep, rumbling voice. In a matter of moments, the lifeless body of Anakin Skywalker stirs, as we CUT TO: SCENE 4: Dagobah (introduced in Episode Five: Empire Strikes Bk) Far across the galaxy, on the bog world of Dagobah, Obi-Wan Kenobi walks through the dense fog and pauses, unhappy and dejected because he has been forced by circumstances to kill his friend. He turns to Yoda, his eight hundred year-old teacher and says: "I have failed, Master Yoda." Yoda gives him a contemptuous stare, then closes his eyes: "No good is it to teach you when you have not yet learned patience! Humility!" Obi-Wan shakes his head and offers an excuse as his reply: "But Anakin was my friend. The Force was with him very strongly, and I thought that I could be as good a teacher as you were with me." He pauses and breathes a deep sigh: "I fear my mistake may have terrible consequences for the galaxy!" The Jedi Master points a crooked finger at him: "Most important lesson have you learned! Now a great burden you carry." Kenobi squeezes his tear-filled eyes shut and drops his head in defeat. But Yoda is immediately at his side to offer comfort and to reveal that Anakin is not dead. He further explains the incidents which have just taken place and foresees a deadly conflict. The Jedi Knight is pale and silent for a long moment. Then, slowly, he, too, recognizes the entire awesome threat that Palpatine has brought to the Old Republic. He thinks of the lives of his friends (Lady Arcadia Skywalker and Bail Organa) and realizes that he must leave immediately for Jhantor. CUT TO: SCENE 5: Bridge Interior -- a small, saucer-shaped freighter, with cramped quarters and a cockpit-like bridge. On the starship bridge, Captain Antilles - a rugged, mustached thirty-year old - makes final calculations for his approach to Jhantor when two tractor beams lock-on and bring his vessel to a halt. His short-range scanners reveal two sentry fighters, swooping into a holding pattern on his port and starboard sides. The sentry pilots order him to heave-to and prepare to be boarded. "No," he snarls in reply - but quickly reconsiders, when his protocol droid (C3PO) and his ten-year-old, Correllian cabin boy remind him that he is out-gunned. Antilles brings his ship about, and, in moments, despite his objections, a handful of Palpatine's troops board the freighter and confiscate his cargo. Captain Antilles curses the officer in charge, and explains the incident is far from over, as we DISSOLVE TO: SCENE 6: Jhantor When the tragic news of Tara Courtney's assassination reaches her embassy chambers, Lady Arcadia Skywalker is shocked and hastily gathers her servants and droids to leave for her homeworld. She is a beautiful matron, who is in the last stages of pregnancy, and she is fearful for her unborn child (or children). For the past several weeks, she has watched the order of Jhantor deteriorate into anarchy under the rule of Palpatine, and she has made plans to escape, by smuggling her household aboard a spice freighter. But, in the docking bay, Lady Arcadia and her party are suddenly surrounded by a heavily-armed detachment of troops, activating their weapons and raising them to firing position. She turns to the officer in charge and demands to know what's going on; but he doesn't know - he is simply following orders. She resists his authority, claiming diplomatic immunity, but quickly reconsiders when the voice of evil echoes through the bay: "You mustn't be so hasty, Lady Skywalker!" PRESIDENT Palpatine emerges from the shadows, accompanied by Prince Valarium, and explains that Arcadia, her servants, her droids, and her pilot are being placed under his protective custody. CUT TO: SCENE 7: Sigma Vulcanus -- The Monastic Order of the Sith -- a spartan-like retreat, high atop a mountain ridge Through a montage of scenes, wherein Anakin Skywalker remains in a coma, the silent, robed figures minister to his injuries. Their task is an awesome one: First, in a most sophisticated furnace, they forge battle armour and a metal breath-screen (skull-like in appearance) that will cover his demolished visage. Next, they amputate his arms and limbs that no longer function, repair vital organs, and encase the torso -- forever -- in the dreaded armour and artificial respirator. Finally, they restore the severed limbs with intricate computer circuitry and revive him from his comatose state. Anakin Skywalker becomes Darth Vader, more machine than man! Following his repairs, the monk-like figures (still hidden under their hooded robes) begin to instruct Vader in a dark, evil parody of Luke's apprenticeship under Yoda. Darth Vader is taught many sorceror's skills; he is lectured on the sinister machinations of the Force and is shown how to construct an even more lethal sabre using fragments of the shattered Kaiburr Crystal. But with each new challenge, and skill accomplished, Vader is doubtful of purpose. He knows he is being trained as a power weapon -- and yet, he cannot conceive why. Angered by this confusion, and the fear that his humanity (and manhood) has been stripped away, Darth Vader strikes out in rage at one of his hooded teachers only to discover an empty robe. He is momentarily terror-stricken and then mystified as, one by one, the hooded figures vanish -- in a strangely, compelling way -- to reveal a 3-D holographic image of Palpatine. "Yes, yes," Palpatine taunts him, "Only now do you conceive that is was my force of will that saved you -- that kept you alive -- and that gave you life again!" Darth Vader extends a courtly bow to Palpatine and thanks him for his life. But Palpatine is not interested in gratitude. He is in need of a powerful weapon and an obedient servant, and he reminds the former Jedi that he has the power to crush him should he desire. He then forces Vader to his knees and commands: "Now come to me, my servant. I have an important task that will complete your training!" CUT TO: SCENE 8: Jhantor -- Docking-bay and City Exteriors Obi-Wan Kenobi's approach and arrival on Jhantor is undetected by the planetary defenses. Marshalling his Jedi strength and cunning, he is able to slip past the sentries in the docking bay, edge by the troops patrolling the perimeter and reach the home of Lady Skywalker. But when he reaches the embassy, the huge chambers are silent and empty -- and there are no apparent clues as to the Lady's whereabouts. Then, out of the darkness, Captain Antilles appears and confirms what Kenobi already suspects: The Lady and her party have been detained as "guests" of Palpatine in the prison cell block. After introducing himself (as Captain of a Correllian freighter), Antilles explains that he came to her embassy, seeking the help of the Merchanter's Guild (because of the piracy of his goods), and discovered an R2 unit (Artoo Detoo), that had slipped away during her capture, cowering in the shadows. He further reveals that the R2 unit has monitored her termination notice! Realizing that he has little time, Obi-Wan enlists the pilot's aid; and the two men, accompanied by the stubby, mechanical droid, hurry toward the cell-block. [Moderator's Note: Due to the length of this article, it will be continued in the following digest.] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 2 Apr 87 0954-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #129 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Apr 87 0954-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #129 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 129 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens & Neuromancer & Part 2 of Star Wars III Synopsis ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Apr 87 10:52:08 EST From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: More Aliens As to which was better, ALIEN or ALIENS, it depends on which you prefer, suspense or action. I personally thought ALIENS was a much better movie because the sets were much better, the acting was more realistic, and the story didn't leave you any time to catch your breath from one scene to the next. In the novelizations what starships were using was hyperdrive, or FTL travel. When the crew of the Nostromo awoke they discovered that they hadn't even reached the outer populated ring yet and were 10 months away from Earth. When Ripley blew up the Nostromo she said into the shuttle's recorder "I should reach the frontier in about six weeks" the frontier meaning the outer populated ring. When the shuttle malfunctioned (or was it a malfunction?) and passed right through the core systems (Earth and the like) it eventually almost ran out of power, reentered normal space and just drifted until it was found. It was stated that the maximum anyone had ever survived in hypersleep was 65 years, so Ripley just made it back in time, being frozen for 57 years. One thing that still puzzles me, where was the Nostromo coming from with its cargo of crude oil? They were obvioulsy very far out, since: 1. It would take them 10 months to get home in hyperdrive 2. They had not even reached the fringe of human civilization yet 3. No one had ever seen anything like the derelict spacecraft before So where were they coming from at the beginning of ALIEN? Any ideas? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Apr 87 19:56:57 EST From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) Subject: Neuromancer and other movies Gee, A Neuromancer movie. This is an incredible opportunity for the movie industry -- the first ever ***GOOD*** SciFi movie derived from a book. Since the book's style is so, err, "sensory", it would seem to be a good choice for a movie. Speaking of movies, I talked briefly with Mark Rogers at Lunacon -- the Samurai Cat movie grinds on, apparently. I'd like to hear updates if anyone else knows what's happening with it. ("What a stud.") This leads into a tradition SF discussion topic -- what do you want to see as a movie? I want to see Lord of the Rings, but only if I can have complete artistic control -- abominations like the Hanna-Barbra, or silliness like Bakshi's attempt just don't cut it. At least there is some obvious music for it. Holst's Mars for the siege of Minas Tirith (when Grond shows up), some Tchaikovsky for pastoral Shire scenes, etc.... Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Sat 21 Mar 87 12:00:50-EST From: Chester Subject: I shall return STAR WARS III: FALL OF THE REPUBLIC Story treatment by John L. Flynn Adapted from Part I: "The Adventures of Obi-Wan Kenobi" The Journal of the Whills By George Lucas [Moderator's Note: This is part 2 of the synopsis] CUT TO: SCENE 9: Jhantor -- Palpatine's Senate Chambers Palpatine orders his guards to bring the captured slaver to his senate chambers. While pacing back and forth, he examines the individual who stands before him in chains and shrewdly considers his fate: Boba Fett, the lone survivor of a group of commandos the Jedi defeated on Mandalore during the Clone Wars, is charged with interstellar slavery and the cold-blooded murder of the Jedi Kane Starkiller (Refer to Star Wars: Episode II). Fett's battle-scarred face sneers at the charges, defending his actions as "righteous vengeance." The evil President stares malevolently at Boba Fett for several moments, then offers him his freedom (and his confiscated slavership) in exchange for the extermination of the Jedi Knights. He also promises him a rich bounty for each Jedi scalp that he brings back; he wants proof of their deaths -- and no disintegrations. Fett grins and replies that he may have difficulty in locating them since they are scattered throughout the galaxy. But Palpatine reassures him that the task should be an easy one with the President's secret weapon. Boba Fett dubiously agrees, as his chains are unlocked and he is escorted from the chambers. As the slaver exits, Prince Valarium -- accompanied by a few personal guards -- announces the arrival of Darth Vader. Palpatine, in a quiet whisper, advises Valarium to -- personally -- supervise Lady Arcadia's execution, then requests that Vader be shown in. As the guards stand aside, Darth Vader, tall and threatening in flowing black robes and armour, enters the chamber and kneels before his master. Palpatine smiles, looking at his nightmare creation in black, and commands him to hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. Vader is hesitant and requests permission to visit his wife. But Palpatine refuses, telling his servant a vicious lie that she has been murdered by his comrades, and produces his crystal globe as evidence. Seemingly unmoved, Vader turns to look at a series of images Palpatine conjures (from the globe). The images re-create -- in holographic form -- the treacherous betrayal and murder of Lady Arcadia by two of Vader's fellow knights. (Note: since the images are too brutal for our saga, tight point-of-view camera angles should convey the details.) When the last image vanishes, the Dark Lord, fooled by the false images, stands, ignites his lightsabre and strikes the crystal globe with monumental anger. And this rage completes Vader's journey to the dark side. LAP DISSOLVE TO: SCENE 10: Jhantor -- Cell-block Meanwhile, deep in the cell-block dungeons, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Captain Antilles overpower a pair of detention guards and open Lady Arcadia's cell. Overjoyed to find her still alive, Obi-Wan embraces Arcadia warmly, then senses the pains of her motherly contractions. Antilles interrupts their embrace and reminds them to save their hellos until they're safely out of the cell-block. But, as they leave the cell, Prince Valarium and his personal guards appear and draw their weapons. Antilles exchanges fire with the guards, and Obi-Wan and Arcadia hurry off into the dungeon maze, followed closely by the Correllian pilot. Retreating down a linking corridor, past the cell-block armory, the two heroes -- with their pregnant fugitive -- decide to stand firm and fight. Captain Antilles charges his weapon and blasts away at the detention guards, while the Jedi Knight concentrates all his thoughts and feeling on detonating the arsenal and sealing the dungeon exit. But, in the midst of his efforts, Kenobi's heightened senses feel his former friend's RAGE. The rage, in turn, betrays Vader's thoughts and President Palpatine's sinister mission (to Obi-Wan). "Whatever you're doing -- do it faster!" Antilles shouts, snapping the Jedi out of his daze. Kenobi immediately refocuses his energy and, in a matter of moments, the armory explodes, isolating the guards from them. However, the noise and excitement are too much for the Lady Skywalker as she doubles over in pain. The Correllian pilot fears she's been hit by flying shrapnel -- but Kenobi says she's having a baby and advises Antilles take her to the safety of his freighter. He further explains that he must leave -- in spite of his desire to help Arcadia -- to warn his fellow knights of Vader's treachery. CUT TO: SCENE 11: Jhantor -- Palpatine's Chambers Reporting to the President's chambers, Valarium reluctantly tells of Lady Skywalker's escape. Palpatine is angered and quickly orders -- over his private comlink -- a division of troops to search the city. He then orders the arrest of Mon Mothma and Bail Organa to prevent any further interferences in his plans. Turning to Valarium, Palpatine's face darkens to an insane fury. Blinding energy bolts shoot from his finger tips, and the young Prince is struck down. "Don't fail me again!" Palpatine warns, as Prince Valarium crawls, like a wounded animal, to his side and gasps, "Never . . ." CUT TO: SCENE 12: Jhantor -- Docking bay, interior of saucer-shaped Correlian freighter In the dank, dark hangar-bay, Obi-Wan Kenobi departs in his starship, and Captain Antilles turns his attention to one of his most difficult tasks. With the nervous assistance of C3PO, he first comforts Lady Skywalker, then helps deliver her children. The moment is a joyous, mystic one as Luke and Leia take their 1st breath and begin crying. But that special sound of babies crying brings a detachment of troops down upon them! * * Special Note: The troops should be costumed differently from the stormtroopers because they are part of Bail Organa's personal guard, - but the scene should cause a false moment of suspense for Antilles, and the audience. LAP DISSOLVE TO: SCENE 13: Jhantor -- Palpatine's Chambers Still enraged from Valarium's carelessness, Palpatine plots a unique political move that will destroy Lady Arcadia's influence with the Merchanter's Guild AND further cement his power with commerce and industry. He first frees a handful of pirates and bribes them to raid the Spice Mines and Mineral Springs; he then orders his personal troops to eliminate the pirates and guard -- as well as regulate -- the shipping lanes. But. in the midst of his political maneuvering, Palpatine is struck down -- paralyzed -- for a few, fleeting moments. When he regains his composure, he is deeply disturbed by a nightmare premonitions, a tremor in the Force which threatens his well being. He senses Lady Arcadia's true strength -- the birth of a son that would one day challenge his power. (But he fails -- in his twisted wickedness --- to sense the second child!) Sending his special group of assassins into Jhantor, Palpatine orders them to kill every new-born son -- both in the capital city and the nearby outlands -- because, for the first time in his life, he is afraid. (The character should be played much like Herod's in the New Testament.) This brutal action (of Palpatine's) spawns screams of anguish and unrestricted weeping as the soldiers -- unquestioningly -- carry out their violent task. (Note: The horror of the events will be merely suggested -- and not shown -- to our cameras.) IMMEDIATE CUT TO: SCENES 14 TO 18: Numerous Worlds --- Each distinct in its own way Across the galaxy, in a terror-filled montage of scenes, wherein we glimpse numerous worlds and races, the betrayal and execution of the Jedi Knights is perpetrated. Darth Vader and a handful of Palpatine's assassins barge into an exotic saloon and eliminate an alien-looking Jedi amidst screams and mass hysteria from the patrons. While this is happening, Boba Fett leads a group of stormtroopers into a docking bay and disintegrates the Knight mending repairs in his starship. And by the time Vader and his cohorts have slipped into the quarters and strangled a sleeping Jedi, Boba Fett, accompanied by several trained assassins, chases down and executes a fleeing Jedi and his family. However, the abomination of Vader (as well as Palpatine's sinister plan) is not complete until he destroys the remaining Jedi Knights as they make a final stand. The battle is fearsome, and the Jedi force manages to kill a large number of troops; but they are vastly outnumbered, and soon, they are massacred -- to the last man -- by Vader's troops. After dismissing Boba Fett and his troops, Darth Vader looks over the battlefield, at the dead bodies, then takes a deep breath and says, "Kenobi, I will deal with you myself..." * * * Obi-Wan Kenobi hears Vader's words -- but he is too far in space to offer him a challenge. He accelerates his starship, thinking of his compatriots, and hurries to the planet. However, arriving several hours too late, Kenobi is disheartened to find the dead bodies of his fellow Jedi Knights. He unhappily builds a funeral pyre and burns their bodies (in a ceremony befitting a viking hero). He then examines the broad, huge footprints in the sand, and whispers Darth Vader's name. CUT TO: SCENE 19 : Jhantor --- The Alderaan Embassy --- Well-guarded, the building is deceptive in its heavy fortification. With very little military effort, a special detachment of troops take Captain Antilles, Lady Skywalker and party through the defenses of the Alderaan Embassy and deliver them to a darkened conference room. Bail Organa, Viceroy and 1st Chairman of the Alderaan System, enters the room and apologizes to his guests for frightening then with his personal guard, but he confesses that his caution is not without warrant: Jhantor was full of spies and assassins and the R2 unit (in her embassy) could have been a clever trap. He further explains that his colleagues had put too much trust in the stability of the Republic, failing to realize that while the body might be sound, the head was growing diseased and feeble, and THEY WERE ALL DEAD! There is deep bitterness in his voice, and genuine concern for Lady Arcadia. Antilles and Arcadia accept his apology and anxiously insist upon diplomatic sanctuary. But, as news of Palpatine's takeover of the Merchanter's Guild and the galactic shipping lanes reaches the Embassy, the outlook is grim! Organa curses loudly, suddenly realizing that there was nothing he could do to prevent the fall of the Republic and guarantee their safety. Pragmatically, he prays for their salvation by the Jedi Knights (unaware of their extinction), then orders the immediate evacuation of the Embassy. CUT TO: SCENE 20: Jhantor --- Palpatine's Chambers With grim anticipation, Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith, kneels at his ruler's feet and reports his success. Palpatine is pleased that his servant has eliminated all but one of the Jedi Knights and smiles -- with evil delight -- at Valerium and the other members of his cabinet. He then asks the fate of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Vader is hesitant and replies that he and Kenobi have a private matter to settle! But that answer is not satisfactory enough. Palpatine pauses in his interrogation and boasts of his ambitious plans (of galactic conquest) to Vader and the others that are assembled: his few traitorous lieutenants have betrayed their superiors and taken control of the Starfleet; his troops have successfully routed marauding pirates and have begun to regulate commerce and industry along the shipping lanes; and his political arrangements with greedy landlords, sadistic gangsters, and power-hungry governors have made his power absolute. He explains (that he has told them this to illustrate) that his control is predicated on his personnel following orders, even at the cost of their own lives! Pausing a second time, Palpatine dismisses Valarium, and orders him to report to the control center. The young prince agrees and bows slightly, a gesture Palpatine acknowledges with a perfunctory salute. Then he spins and strides from the room, leaving the Dark Lord looking from man to man in confused silence. As Valarium steps into the corridor, he is grabbed and assassinated by Palpatine's guards. Darth Vader then nods his understanding as the evil President reminds: "The fate of those who fail me is DEATH!" [Moderator's Note: The plot synopsis concludes in the very next digest] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 2 Apr 87 1015-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #130 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Apr 87 1015-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #130 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 130 Today's Topics: Films - Conclusion of Star Wars III Synopsis, Miscellaneous - Conventions (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat 21 Mar 87 12:00:50-EST From: Chester Subject: I shall return STAR WARS III: FALL OF THE REPUBLIC Story treatment by John L. Flynn Adapted from Part I: "The Adventures of Obi-Wan Kenobi" The Journal of the Whills By George Lucas [Moderator's Note: This concludes the plot synopsis printed in the last two digests.] IMMEDIATE CUT TO: SCENE 21: Jhantor --- Docking-bay In the docking-bay, the massive evacuation of the Alderaan Embassy is taking place under tight security. The humming of elevators and the moving of heavy equipment echo through the large chamber as the bustling flight crews make ready their freighters and the pilots perform final checkouts. Bail Organa, with the "help" of See Threepio, supervises his men loading supplies and ammunition, while Artoo Detoo aids the Lady Arcadia with her two infants. Captain Antilles is suspiciously nowhere to be found. Momentarily, the defensive sensors sound alarm -- but they are quickly silenced when the unknown danger is identified as Obi-Wan Kenobi's approaching starship. Once in the docking-bay, Kenobi emerges from the craft and informs Bail Organa and his anxious troops that the Jedi Knights have all been destroyed by the treachery of President Palpatine and the hand of Darth Vader. A heart-felt murmur sweeps over the docking-bay, like a swell in a heavy sea. The last Jedi Knight's second piece of news is even more grim: the Starfleet, under the command of Palpatine's forces, have formed a perimeter blockade, and their purpose is to prevent Organa from leaving and force him to surrender his ground troops. Bail Organa curses quietly to himself, recognizing the futility of further conflict. The great leader -- Viceroy and Senator of the Alderaan system -- has fought many battles: he has fought along side Kenobi and the other Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars, and has helped to eliminate piracy and slavery -- with the crusading Lady Arcadia -- in the formation of the Merchanter's Guild. But this time, he realizes that he is outmatched! Organa acquires a comlink from one of his men and begins to broadcast surrender orders to his troops. When, suddenly, dozens of Merchanter's Guild members, of all species and life-forms, follow Captain Antilles into the Docking-bay and assemble around Bail Organa. The group of freighter pilots and navigators is an impressive one: There are representatives from Mon Calamari, Bespin, Sullest, Correllia, Mandalore, Kessel, and Alderaan. Some are wearing fatigues, loaded with weapons and tools, while others are adorned in their native wear. "Some of them still have their ships -- and the others will fly anything we can put into the air," Antilles reports, and the morale of Organa's men is revived again. "And if this action makes us pirates and outlaws -- in the eyes of Palpatine's new empire -- then we're with you one hundred percent!" As the two groups of men (and aliens) hurry off, cheering the success of their united departure, Obi-Wan Kenobi approaches the Lady Arcadia with his painful secret. He reluctantly admits that his pride (in the Force) may have betrayed Anakin to Palpatine, and that the man she once loved was now a hideous monster, more machine than man. She is, at first, taken aback, chilled by his statement; then, with tears in her eyes, she confesses that she, too, felt him slipping away -- many months before -- and was unable to reach him either. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Lady Skywalker exchange a tender embrace, and recognizing the potential danger they they both faced, they arrange to separate the children with the hope that they would be united one day as brother and sister. Kenobi will take Luke to live with his brother Owen on Tatooine, while Arcadia will arrange for Leia to live as daughter of Senator Organa, on Alderaan. This way the children would have a better chance of survival should one (or the other) be discovered by Vader! CUT TO: SCENE 22: Bridge interior --- Flagship of the Starfleet* in the Jhantor Star System Darth Vader emerges from his private shuttle and strides past a handful of troops in formation. His presence is awesome and threatening as he approaches the starship captain. Commander Tarkin bows from the neck down and advises his superior that they were ready to annihilate anyone who attempts to run the blockade. Tarkin is over confident in his appraisal of the situation, and that reflects in his conversation with the Dark Lord. * Special Note: The Starfleet -- at this moment in galactic history -- is composed largely of heavy cruisers, destroyers, and spacecraft carriers, with a full complement of fighters. There are no Star Destroyers, Death Stars, or TIE fighters because the Republic's Starfleet was used primarily for exploration and occasional law enforcement. However, under the ruthless command of Darth Vader, it is a formidable opponent. Organa and his diplomatic party captured alive (if possible) so that they would face the embarrassment of a public tribunal. And the Dark Lord adds that he wants Kenobi (!), his voice conveying the image of a dreadful fate (that would be inflicted) if his commands were not executed. Tarkin reluctantly salutes and backs away from him, angered that their positions were not reversed. He barks several commands, and his troops spring to battle stations. DISSOLVE TO: SCENES 23 TO 27: Jhantor Star System --- Various types of spacecraft against a backdrop of stars and a brightly coloured nebulae Alarms sound full alert as the handful of freighters, transport ships, blockade runners, luxury cruisers and one-man fighters approach the armada of the Starfleet. The ships attempt - first -- to cross the blockade with the diplomatic colors and symbols of Alderaan; but, when that fails, they energize their main deflector shields and prepare to fight their way through. (Captain Antilles and Obi-Wan Kenobi hold their groups up as the first wave attacks.) Keeping a tight formation, dozens of transport ships and luxury cruisers move in close to the Starfleet armada -- and begin blasting away, while fifty-or-so small freighters and one-man fighters race across their surfaces, zipping between laser bolts as they engage the small pursuit fighters. Their plan is one of strategic genius: by flying in close, the rebel group emasculates the fire-power, which is ineffective at close-range, of the larger ships. Additionally, the erratic and hot-dog flying of the Merchanter's Guild members confuse and place the military pilots at a momentary disadvantage! And that disadvantage is exploited: Antilles and Kenobi launch the second wave of ships and wait tensely to join the conflict, or make their escape. However, the heroic efforts (of the rebel flight crews) are brought to an abrupt halt by the armada as the heavy cruisers fire broadsides at point-blank range, disregarding their own safety. The Starfleet's audacious and dangerous move seems to turn the tide of battle: small one-man fighters scatter, luxury cruisers reverse their engines, and freighters drop their additional weapons and accelerate away. But, as the proton beams take their toll, last-ditch, suicide runs are made by the damaged rebel craft: a cargo freighter -- loaded with weapons and cargo -- heads on a collision course for one of the Destroyers and explodes, while a transport ship -- mortally wounded in combat -- limps at a heavy cruiser and detonates its nuclear engines, destroying his opponent with him. The balance of the small craft punch through holes and race for open space! Captain Antilles, piloting the saucer-shaped freighter (with Bail Organa, Lady Arcadia, and party aboard), dives into the chaos, then steers through the battle. Once clear, he engages his ship's hyperdrive and soars away at light speed. Several pursuit craft follow -- but their weapons are ineffectual against his ship's deflector shields and their ion-propelled engines are no match for his. In another sector of the battle, Obi-Wan Kenobi's starship swoops past an engagement and accelerates into space, pursued by Darth Vader's flagship. Kenobi executes a series of stunning maneuvers in an effort to lose the Heavy Cruiser, but he quickly realizes that it will not be easy to shake. Marshalling the Force around him, the last Jedi prepares for a death-defying stunt. He then guides his starship into the nebulae; and with his deflector shields (and the Force) at full intensity, Kenobi flies through the core of the exploding star. Darth Vader stands silently on the Bridge of his starship, gazing in disbelief at the brightly-colored nebulae. He demands the scanning sensors probe the area for any sign of the Jedi Knight -- but the results are negative! Gravely disappointed, the Dark Lord orders the Flagship returned to the fleet and walks away, sensing that they would meet again. The victory is an incomplete one for Palpatine's forces. His starfleet has destroyed or captured nearly three dozen vehicles -- but scattered throughout the galaxy were rebelous pirates and outlaws that he would one day have to deal with! LAP DISSOLVE TO: SCENES 28 TO 30: EPILOGUE --- Jhantor --- EMPEROR Palpatine, with Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith, at his side, smiles malevolently and plots his next move as his assembled troops chant: "Long Live Palpatine! Long Live the Empire!!" Alderaan --- Lady Arcadia Skywalker -- now a common servant in the Organa household -- sings her daughter to sleep under the watchful sensors of Artoo Detoo and See Threepio, while Bail Organa awards Captain Antilles with a commission in his service. Tatooine --- Obi-Wan Kenobi, the last Jedi Knight, delivers the infant boy to his brother, Owen Lars, then disappears into the desert wasteland, awaiting the day when Luke would claim the light sabre of his father (from him) and become a man. FADE OUT. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 87 00:11:45 GMT From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: SF cons [and Boskone] From: djpl%hulk.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (The Wizard) >I read books. I also go to the movies and I watch a little >television. When I go to a con, I would like *all* of that. Most >of the people I go with feel the same way. There's just something >intangible about going to a place with 5000 of your closest >friends. Here in NH, there isn't much to do so cons are big >events. Same here. But if those numbers are causing problems, something has to change. >Maybe Boskone should farm out the events they no longer wish to >handle. If they don't want to do a video program, let someone else >do it. The point is that Boskone has come to mean more to a lot of >people. With them scaling back their scope, there won't be a >regional be-all end-all con in this area. It looks like the next >one around here will be Noreascon [Worldcon '89]. The problem is not that Boskone doesn't want to be responsible for these events. The problem is that all of these events combined are drawing a crowd too large to control. If Boskone got someone else to take the film program off their hands, it would still be running, and still drawing a certain number of fans that might not have attended the con if a film program did not exist at all. Once they'd decided they had to cut out something, what could they do? If they cut the Science track, or the Writers track (or whatever they have down there), they wouldn't be cutting down on the numbers as significantly as they would by cutting the film program and other media events - because media draws big crowds. And if they cut several of the non-media tracks, the con would then be a media con, and that's not what the Boskone committee wanted. >My belief is that NESFA could make Boskone a joint effort with >other groups so that they could get their help and still keep the >best con in the Northeast growing. NESFA is complaining that >Boskone is too big for them. Well, I, for one, would rather see >Boskone continue in the path that it began to take than see it >diminished. I can see a lot of 'in memoriam' t-shirts [Veteran of >Boskone Glory Years]. But they CAN'T get a HOTEL for that many people - or CONTROL that many people once they've arrived. Get it? Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 87 13:34:22 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu Subject: Boskone XXV Info from INSTANT MESSAGE The following is a summary of NESFA's nine-point plan for dealing with Boskone XXV (1988). It is extracted from INSTANT MESSAGE #416, dated March 15, 1987 (which had no indications that this should not be reprinted or discussed): 1) There will be a stated limit of 1,5000-2,000 people at this convention. The size limit is determined by the facilites. 1a) SF professionals (writers, artists, editors) will be allowed to buy memberships after the limit has been reached. 1b) Attendance in Boskone will be semi-invitational. The committee has the right to return membership checks. In the case of Boskone 25, the following groups have an automatic invitation: Boskone LIfe Members Committee, Staff, and Gophers from Recent Boskones Program Participants, Artists, and Hucksters from Recent Boskones NESFA Members Attendees from 3 of the Last 5 Boskones People Who Have Purchased Art at Any of the Last 3 Boskones Others Known to the Committee, or Members of Established SF Clubs 2) Boskone will not be publicized in any way at all, with the exception of being listed in semi-prozines and through Instant Message. Boskone flyers will not be sent to other conventions [I think this may have been changed later -ecl], and Boskone will not be listed in prozines. Boskone will not have a general mailing in the fall. Between now and the end of April, a letter will go to every person who purchased a membership to Boskone 24, announcing that Boskone 25 will be a smaller, "private" convention for the "serious" science fiction fan. 3) Boskone policy will be that no alcohol be served at open parties. 3a) Boskone will not promote parties in any way, except to provide a bulletin board where open parties may be listed. Boskone will not discourage parties, but will see that they close at 2am, that alcohol is not served at open parties, and that parties creating noise complaints are warned to quiter or be closed. 4) Boskone will have a "closing time," after which time there will be no official convention functions (con suite, films) and after which open parties will be asked to close. 5) All weapons will be banned. 6) Costumes will be discouraged. 7) No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or guardian. ... We will make exceptions for: members of known SF clubs, gophers. 8) We will offer refunds to all those who have already purchased a membership. No transfers are allowed. 9) Badge-checking will be carried out in all function areas, and people holding private parties will be encouraged to check badges as well. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 6 Apr 87 0901-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #131 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Apr 87 0901-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #131 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 131 Today's Topics: Books - Alexander (4 msgs) & Brust & Eddings (2 msgs) & Harrison & Kurtz & Panshin & Wells & Zelazny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Apr 87 04:12:46 GMT From: mjlarsen@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Michael J. Larsen) Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries (Lloyd Alexander) rhr@osupyr.UUCP (The Fugitive Guy) writes: >I have a good question for all of the fantasy critics/aficionados >out there. I was wondering if Alexander Lloyd ( of the Black >Cauldron series ) has written any other fantasy works. I would also >like the name of the books in the Black Cauldron series that are >not listed here. The Prydain series (written by Lloyd Alexander) consists of The Book of Three The Black Cauldron The Castle of Llyr Taran Wanderer The High King in that order. Alexander has also written a companion volume to the above, recounting Coll's rescue of Hen Wen. I forget the title. In addition, he has a rather charming short novel, The Wizard in the Tree, and a trilogy of indifferent quality, two of whose books are The Kestrel and The Beggar Queen. The Prydain books are by far his best, particularly The Black Cauldron and The High King. Michael Larsen ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 02:15:49 GMT From: reed!soren@rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen) Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries rhr@osupyr.UUCP (The Fugitive Guy) writes: Hurm, both good series. Haven't read either in a while. Enjoyed both immensely when I was a "juvenile". >I was wondering if Alexander Lloyd ( of the Black Cauldron series ) >has written any other fantasy works. The other ones are, in order: 1) The Book of Three 2) >The Black Cauldron 3) The Princess of Llyr 4) >Taran Wanderer 5) >The High King soren f petersen tektronix!reed!soren ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 17:34:20 GMT From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alexander Granok) Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries rhr@osupyr.UUCP (The Fugitive Guy) writes: >I was wondering if Alexander Lloyd ( of the Black Cauldron series ) >has written any other fantasy works. I would also like the name of >the books in the Black Cauldron series that are not listed here. > >The ones I remember are > >The Black Cauldron Taran Wanderer The High King First of all, his name is Lloyd Alexander, not Alexander Lloyd... The other book which I can remember the name of off-hand is The Horned King. I can't seem to remember the other one, but it either has the giant cat on the cover, or the sorceror type confronting Taran (one of these is Taran Wanderer). I hate it when I can see the cover, but can't remember the title. I liked them when I read them some time ago. Good Welsh legends. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 17:42:23 GMT From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alexander Granok) Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries (Lloyd Alexander) mjlarsen@phoenix.UUCP (Michael J. Larsen) writes: >rhr@osupyr.UUCP (The Fugitive Guy) writes: >The Book of Three Yeah, that's it. I always want to call it The Horned King, well...because that's mostly what it's about. >The Black Cauldron >The Castle of Llyr Bingo. I always forget the name of that one (Llyr). >Taran Wanderer >The High King >... The Prydain books are by far his best, particularly The Black >Cauldron and The High King. I agree with you there. The High King was very good. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 18:34:03 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla, Brokedown Palace Judy Anderson writes: >when I was reading Brokedown Palace I was under the impression that >the events in B.P. occurred long before the events in Jhereg/etc. >It was clear that the universes were the same, and that Faerie was >Dragaera, ... It did seem to me that there weren't any other >nearby human establishments known to the residents, which is what >led me to believe it was far in the past when there were fewer >people. I thought it was clear that Brokedown Palace took place in the westernmost of the human lands, and most everything to the east was human-occupied. Frank Adams Ashton-Tate 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 19:42:14 GMT From: xanth!revell@rutgers.edu (James R Revell Jr) Subject: Belgariad: romm for improvements Bravo! I read the Belgariad not to long ago and found the whole thing just as predictable, despite friends who appeared to be entirely captivated. Eddings did seem very accomplished at picking many lines of detail to include with most any thought, but enough is enough! Let the reader do some thinking himself! The books are far to drawn out for what the entail, thus they take far to long to read (most any reader could complete sections by himself). Let's hope that Eddings has written his next offering such that it instills some anticipation, and lets the chew on some unwritten thoughts! It's from the unexpected barriers that we learn and grow, otherwise, we'd all be walking algorithms. James R Revell Jr Old Dominion University Department of Computer Science Norfolk, Virginia 23508 (804)-484-0555 UUCP: revell@xanth.UUCP ...!seismo!harvard!xanth!revell CSNET: revell@odu.CSNET ARPA: revell%xanth.cs.odu.edu@RELAY.CS.NET ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 87 09:54:19 GMT From: crew@decwrl.DEC.COM (Roger Crew) Subject: Re: eddings (SPOILER) bkfeir@watnot.UUCP (Bryan Feir) writes: >And as for the idea that nothing new was said, did you really read >the prolog to the fifth of the Belgariad? Seeing the whole thing >from the other side of the fence was interesting. I have yet to >meet a person who was not at least mildly shocked by that.... The prolog was great. However, it's too bad he didn't follow through on it. After reading the first 4 books, my reaction to the prolog of the 5th book was basically, ``Finally! Can it actually be that the evil guys are not so one-dimensional after all?? Now we get to find out what's *really* going on.'' Everything was so predictable up to that point. There just had to be something weird behind the scenes. I was all set up for this wonderful revelation that it was actually Aldur or the Orb that was evil and twisted... Or, perhaps, now that Garion was the most powerful person in the known universe, he'd be corrupted by it... But no. Eddings could have had a really powerful story in that 5th book, something to make the innocence of the first 4 books all the more disturbing. But he blew it. Having EVERYONE married off at the end didn't help, either. As for Eddings, not having seen anything else by him, I'd have to classify him the same way I'd classify Spielberg (in the movie realm): wonderful at detail work & execution (in this case, the general mechanics of writing itself), creating neat little scenes that work very well; terrible in overall scope & vision -- trite, predictable, etc... But perhaps I'm being a bit premature. If _The Guardians of the West_ (or whatever the new series is to be called) turns out to be radically different, I may end up eating my words... Roger Crew@sushi.stanford.edu everywhere.else!decwrl!crew ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 06:34:03 GMT From: mcgill-vision!mouse@rutgers.edu (der Mouse) Subject: Re: Bill, the Galactic Hero dub@pur-phy.UUCP writes: > ( Incredibly minor spoilers ahead, so don't worry too much.) > > I just finished reading BILL, THE GALATIC HERO by Harry Harrison. > I originally picked up the book on a recommendation from this > network that it was like the father to Hitchhiker's Guide to the > Galaxy. Aack. Hardly. As you discovered. Some of the same ideas but they sure are taken in a different direction. > I'm not much of a literature expert but I'd say that Bill, the > Galactic Hero is a satire on war. Also a satire of Heinlein's Starship Troopers, a book which I recommend to everyone (not everyone will agree with it or necessarily enjoy it, but it certainly gets people thinking). > And it works shockingly well. The last chapter is the "nail in > the coffin" and at "the end" I was stunned and quite a bit > disgusted at Mr. Harrison for what he did to his character. Gee, I thought it fit in very well with the rest of the story. Not to say I enjoyed it. In fact I didn't enjoy it terribly; I don't like dystopias (same reason I've read 1984 only once or maybe twice). What I feel fits the mood of BtGH best is the role-playing game Paranoia. Not an exact match, but it comes fairly close in my estimation. (I don't care much for Paranoia either, I've played it only once.) mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 20:00:45 GMT From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: Deryni vs. Human powers From: "Stephen R. Balzac" >Let's not forget the old woman from the short story "Beltane" who >also appears in Deryni Checkmate as the cause of Bronwyn and >Kevin's deaths. She apparently had powers similar to the Deryni, >but was not one herself. In the short story, in fact, it makes >reference to her and her husband (who was very much Deryni) >teaching one another of the workings of their respective powers. I've always gotten the impression from what was said in Deryni Checkmate that Bethane was indeed Deryni. However she didn't undergo anything approaching formal training. Her techniques for using her power were probably learned from her mother and passed down as folklore (especially since deryniness is passed down the female line ) Bethane may well be descended from Deryni blocked by Tavis O'Neill with Revan's help during the early persecutions. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 18:17:58 GMT From: dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Dave Platt) Subject: Re: "redshirts", "spearchuckers", etc. On the subject of redshirts (minor characters whose essential function is to be killed in the line of duty/plot): there is a good discussion of this basic topic by the protagonist in Alexi Panshin's excellent SF novel "Rite of Passage" (they're mentioned as "spear carriers"). For this reason, and for quite a few others, I recommend this novel to those who haven't encountered it. Personal trivia item: I now consider this book to be my personal "Hardest to keep a copy of this in my library" award-winner. I've owned no less than 5 copies over the past 15 or so years, and they ALWAYS seem to vanish. If I loan this book to someone, it just never seems to come back. The only other book that approaches "Rite of Passage" in this respect is the Harvard Lampoon's "Bored of the Rings" (which otherwise has absolutely NOTHING in common with "Rite of Passage"). ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 00:31:58 GMT From: 6085419@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (James Kawashima) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust >BTW, as an aside about post-holocaust: I've never read _The Time >Machine_, though I vaguely remember watching the movie. Does that >count as post-holocaust in that the narrator goes into the future >past the holocaust? Or was there supposedly a holocaust at all? If you're talking about the H.G. Wells novel, I would not count it as post-holocaust (although Wells did write a number of "valid" post-holocaust novels in which civilization was destroyed by conventional warfare - these include _The_Shape _of_Things_to_Come_, _Things_to_Come_, and _War_in_the_Air_.). _The_Time_Machine_ is, among other things, a bit of social allegory resulting from Wells's hatred of capitalism. He has the Morlocks, who descended from the working class, enslave and feed off of the Elois, who descended from the aristocracy. No holocaust is alluded to, only a gradual decay of a society which Wells felt was already too unhealthy and in need of change. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 87 19:45:24 GMT From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness Spoilers of 'Creatures of Light and Darkness' and 'Lord of Light' > Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM >>> The most interesting of all, however, was the Steel General[...] >>But again, he was no god. > Who says? He looked just as much a god to me as Anubis or Osiris. But then again, Anubis nor Osiris weren't "real" gods either. However, I agree that the book obscures the distinction between "real" gods and "mere mortals" with tremendous power. Intentionally so, I suppose. This is yet another feature CoLaD has in common with LoL. >>Obscure compulsions, like [...some examples intended to show that >>the motivation was not all that obscure...] > They still seemed obscure to me. Now, I will grant that we learn a lot less about the motivations of the characters in CoLaD than those in LoL. But not all *that* much less. The motiviations of Niritri, for example, are religious fanaticism, pure and simple, and that is a motivation I don't really understand at all. Or Yamma, for example. His motivations are palmed off as being deeply psychological effects of his first reincarnation. But how this predisposes him to do the things he does is quite obscure. Further, the example given here of a more understandable motivation: > Now in LoL, The gods were interested in partying, having neat > toys, and only secondarily interested in power (except for > Ganesha, who was also obscurely compelled) except as much as > necessary to assure continued good times. ... is not very convincing to me. Sure, they wanted good times. But why were they suppressing 'mortal' technology? What did that really have to do with a good old deific good time (other than the sadistic joy of excersizing power over others, which is rejected in CoLaD as being an obscure motivation)? As Sam says to Yamma, (more or less) "I ask you why you are oppressing a world, and you answer me with poetic crap." That is, Sam can't figure out what the gods are after either (except for petty excersize of power). > In CoLaD, they were after a subtle sort of galactic dominance or > similar intangibles, unless Anubis really enjoyed partying with > and ruling a bunch of corpses. Oh, now I see. Kali's wedding day, with the gods and demigods compelled to watch Sam and what's-his/her-name, the thief (I think) be killed and mutilated by tigers. Now *there*s an understandable party. A real good time. No zombies here, folks! > In any case, I think both books make a single point. To be a god > requires nothing more than a particular sense of ruthlessness > (even with good intentions) and a lot of power, from whatever > source. Nothing else. I quite agree. But I go quite a bit further, and repeat my claim that there isn't really an element from CoLaD that doesn't appear at all in LoL, and vice versa. The primary difference between the two was the scale of the story and the remoteness of the timeframe. Well, that's what I think, anyhow. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 6 Apr 87 0941-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #132 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Apr 87 0941-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #132 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 132 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Boskone (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Mar 87 10:58:50 EST From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon) Excerpts from the NESFA Boskone 25 Committee's tentative working model for next year's con: Statement of purpose: "The primary purpose of Boskone is to be a science fiction convention of 2000 attendees or less, aimed at the mature science fiction fan." "...how can this be done? By instituting the following mandates for future Boskones:" 1. There will be a stated limit of 1500-2000 people at this convention. The size limit is determined by the facilities. 1b. Attendance in Boskone will be semi-invitational. ...people in the following groups will have an automatic invitation: - Boskone Life Members - Committee, Staff, and Gophers from recent Boskones - Program Participants, Hucksters, and Artists from recent Boskones - NESFA members - Attendees from 3 of the last 5 Boskones - Art Buyers from any of the last 3 Boskones - others known to the Committee - members of established SF clubs 2. Boskone will not be publicized in any way at all...a letter will go to [every Boskone 24 member] announcing that Boskone 25 will be a smaller, 'private' convention for the 'serious' science fiction fan {{quotation marks NESFA's, not mine - ceo}} 3. Boskone policy will be that no alcohol be served at open parties. One of our biggest problems has been that we've been discovered by a number of people who have no real interest in SF or fandom, but just want a weekend long party (in the mundane frat party sense of the word). 3a. Boskone will not promote open parties in any way, except to provide a bulletin board where open parties may be listed. Boskone will not discourage parties, but will see that they close at 2 am, that alcohol is not served at open parties, and that parties creating noise complaints are warned to quiet down or be closed. 4. Boskone will have a "closing time," after which time there will be no official convention functions (con suite, films) and after which open parties will be asked to close. 5. All weapons will be banned. 6. Costumes will be discouraged. 7. No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or legal guardian. This was a painful policy to have to agree to. We know that it is unfair to those kids who show up and don't cause problems. However, a number of problems have been caused by teenagers who seem to view Boskone as a place to get away from parental supervision. 8. We will offer refunds to all those who have already purchased a membership. 9. Badge-checking will be carried out in all function areas, and people holding private parties will be encouraged to check badges as well. The above was from a NESFA newsletter. Comments, anyone? (My only comment at this time is .) Chip Olson (Castell@UMass.Bitnet). ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 87 18:26:48 GMT From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon) From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu > Excerpts from the NESFA Boskone 25 Committee's tentative working > model for next year's con: > > 1. There will be a stated limit of 1500-2000 people at this > convention. The size limit is determined by the facilities. This sounds reasonable, and can, I suspect be accomplished in large part by not selling memberships at the con. Simply not selling memberships at the con will discourage a lot of the less desirable element. People likely to disrupt something won't plan to go to it three or four months in advance, unless they have a real vendetta against NESFA, in which case nothing short of catching them doing something criminal and having them arrested will stop them. > 3. Boskone policy will be that no alcohol be served at open > parties. > > One of our biggest problems has been that we've been discovered > by a number of people who have no real interest in SF or fandom, > but just want a weekend long party (in the mundane frat party > sense of the word). This is, regrettably a problem. Many fans like to party, and most fans I know are inclined to try to share their fannish activities with mundane friends. It is easy to see how taking them to a con and partying can look like the most painless way to get someone interested in fandom. Unfortunately, this seems to be backfiring at Boskone. Also, over the last few years several traditional large open parties have sprung up. I have nothing against parties, or any of the groups sponsoring them, but some of the really large one, like Boxboro Fandom, have clearly gotten out of hand. > 5. All weapons will be banned. > 6. Costumes will be discouraged. The weapons ban is already in effect, and while I have been strongly opposed to it in past years, I reluctantly have to agree with it at present. There were a lot of people at this Boskone that I wouldn't have wanted to be around me carrying a weapon. They managed to be obnoxious enough in crowds just with their own attached anatomy (feet, elbows, etc), without giving them a chance to impale passers by with a sword scabbard, etc. Where some of them are concerned, its probably just as well *I* didn't have a weapon either. The bit about discouraging costumes disappoints me. To me costumes have always been an important part of setting the atmosphere at a con. I suppose this is being proposed as a concession to hotel attitudes, since I don't see that discouraging costumes is going to significantly reduce the number of attendees interested in media SF, or the amount of potential vandalism and disorder. I don't think there's much overlap between the three groups. The trouble with all this is that I don't think it really addresses getting rid of the people causing the problems. As I understand the problems at this year's Boskone, a lot of them came from people who were not even convention members, but just came in off the street for the open parties. Cutting down on the open parties will help with this, but keeping these people out of the hotel is a problem. The hotel can't very well keep stopping people in the halls and demanding to see their room keys or proof of legitimate business in the hotel if they aren't wearing a con badge. As a legitimate, paying guest of the hotel, this happening to me a couple of times would convince me that that hotel didn't want any more of my business. About the only thing I can think of which might be helpful with respect to this problem is holding the convention somewhere outside the downtown Boston area for a few years until the locals forget about it. In my opinion this has several assets -- the hotel space will probably be cheaper, it should reduce or eliminate the exhorbitant parking fees, at least for paying hotel guests, and reduce the amount of downtown traffic you have to fight getting there on Friday. Admittedly, holding a con somewhere where there are no convenient restaurants besides the hotel ones is a nuisance, but it can be lived with. I, for one, would prefer to see NESFA adopt this approach, rather than instituting draconian measures designed to reduce attendance by offending a large cross-section of local fandom. Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy ARPANET: kathy@LL-XN.ARPA kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211 ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 02:29:32 GMT From: encore!paradis@rutgers.edu (Jim Paradis) Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon) castell@UMass.BITNET writes: > 1b. Attendance in Boskone will be semi-invitational. ...people in > the following groups will have an automatic invitation: [ list of groups ] Well, so much for encouraging mundanes and neos to join the world of fandom... when I went to my first Boskone 3 years ago, being not very well-read in SF, I felt almost painfully out of place. However, thanks to the willingness of the people around to welcome "new blood", I became quite comfortable in short order. Now NESFA is turning 180 degrees and making exclusivity an official policy. Is fandom as big as it needs to get? I don't think so. I feel fortunate that I just barely squeak by to be an "invitee" to the next Boskone (having gone to the last three in a row). I'd hate to have been a neo at Boskone XXIV and then be told that he's not wanted! >2. Boskone will not be publicized in any way at all Doesn't have to be. It's legend already. Its existence is well-known, and the only things that remain to be known are the particulars (date, place, etc). These will leak out thru the grapevine... >4. Boskone will have a "closing time," after which time there will >be no official convention functions (con suite, films) and after >which open parties will be asked to close. Just curious, how forcefully will a party be "asked" to close? If we're not bothering anyone, is Boskone still going to bother us? >6. Costumes will be discouraged. HOW are costumes going to be discouraged? If I wear one, will I be asked to change by every con staffer I meet? Will I have to sit in the back of the room for every panel discussion? Will I have to use the service entrance? Or is the discouragement going to come from the simple fact that the "New, Improved" Boskone is going to be so full of grim, serious, MATURE attendees that I'll be made to feel like a pariah? >7. No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or legal > guardian. > This was a painful policy to have to agree to. We know that it is >unfair to those kids who show up and don't cause problems. However, >a number of problems have been caused by teenagers who seem to view >Boskone as a place to get away from parental supervision. Since I'm sure every member of the con committee is over 18, I'm REAL SURE this was a painful decision! (heavy sarcasm). You're damn right it's unfair to the VAST MAJORITY of young fans who cause no problems. Is there any PROOF that more problems were caused by people under 18 than by those over 18??!! Or is this just a convenient restriction to make because it's politically correct? Put it another way: If it can be shown that the vast majority of troublemakers at prvious cons were male, would NESFA then consider a policy of restricting men from attending? >9. Badge-checking will be carried out in all function areas, and >people holding private parties will be encouraged to check badges >as well. I'll give credit where it's due... this is actually a good idea. I was pretty surprised at previous Boskones about the laxness of badge-checking. A good idea as long as it's done reasonably discreetly (i.e. no gestapo tactics) One closing comment/flame retardant: Yes, I know that Boskone is NESFA's event and they can do what they damn well please with it. I'm not saying they CAN'T. I'm just saying I don't like it. One other question: My experience in the con scene is limited to three Boskones. Should NESFA do what they intend to do, are there any OTHER cons of like character to previous Boskones (Boskone Classic, anyone? :-) )? (What's wrong with holding Boskone in Worcester? 1/2 :-) ) Jim Paradis Encore Computer Corp. 257 Cedar Hill St. Marlboro MA 01752 (617) 460-0500 {linus|necntc|ihnp4|decvax|talcott}!encore!paradis ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 14:49:12 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (rich kolker) Subject: Re: Boskone (what do you want in a con) GALLOWAY@VAXA.ISI.EDU (Tom Galloway) writes: >But if your definition isn't one of the two above, what does make a >con fun for you, and one you want to come back to. How about trying >to be constructive instead of critical for a bit? Okay Tom, I'll bite. I've had the advantage of running conventions, so I've been able to implement my ideas (not all, but many). Still, I can't attend my cons so here are a few ideas. Programming: Too often cons run a small number of programming items in large rooms, and run the same old panels everyone's seen at a million other cons. So you get the results- big emptyish rooms. There are two solutions to this 1. Program in smaller rooms. 50 people in a room that seats 60 is a better "feel" and better for interaction than that same group in a ballroom. 2. Put some REAL EFFORT into original programming ideas. Go OUTSIDE the sf community for panelists. Use academia, industry, government, etc. for panelists then mix the people from different groups up. Do panels on non-sf topics that may be of general interest. This of course means putting a lot of work into programming, but hey, nobody said running a con is easy (so where's the Hugo for it?) Films: Have them, on as big a screen and the best sound system you can manage. Don't show films on video if you can possibly avoid it. There is no comparison between even a Star Trek episode on the big and small screens. Video: Use video where nothing else will do. Show some variety. If single episodes of relatively unknown series are shown, the program book (or something) should run down the basic series concept. Costuming: Remember that the Costume competition and show is for the benefit of the general attendees, not the costume makers. You don't want to alienate costumers of course, but at the same time, their needs should not get in the way of the enjoyment of those watching. Dealers: Variety is very important. Again remember who the con is run for...it aint the dealers. Art Show: Have one. Keep your cut small, you didn't paint that. If possible, post the order pieces will be auctioned in (or auction in posted "batches") so attendees don't have to sit through three hours of auction to bid on the one piece they are interested in. Shows, etc: I like them. Keep them short, keep them funny, remember that few fen can act/sing very well so bring the audience in on the joke. If you can't make scene changes smoothly, make them rough. And the best set we ever had was a large piece of paper that said "Obviously western bar". Saved lots of effort. The Hotel: Let them know what to expect from fen, don't sugar coat it (well, not too much). Let the attendees know what you expect of them. If the fans stray over the lines, cooperate with hotel security. A little cooperation on your part will go a long way in they seeing things your way later on. Parties: An open con suite, certainly. We never had (or saw the need for ) beer, and other than a complaint or two, had no problems. Those who wanted bought their own. None of this should be considered a rip at NESFA or Boskone. Although I don't agree with everything they are doing next year, they are dealing in a consistent way with a problem not of their making. Remember that cons are groups of people with similar ideas and interests getting together to have a good time. The costume police won't be out to rip that cape from your shoulders, close your door and put a big sign on it that says "OPEN PARTY, Knock and we'll let you in" takes care of the close the door hour. Hopefully Boskone can weather the problems of the past year and continue. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 6 Apr 87 1011-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #133 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Apr 87 1011-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #133 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 133 Today's Topics: Books - Atwood (3 msgs) & Gibson & L'Engle (2 msgs) & Short Stories (3 msgs) & World Distributers & Requests (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Apr 87 13:47:19 GMT From: osiris!jcp@rutgers.edu (Jolly C. Pancakes) Subject: Re: The Handmaiden's Tale haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes: > Shoshana Green: >>This is not a flame, I think, but a *very* strong disagreement. "The >>Handmaid's Tale" is *most* *certainly* science fiction! Absolutely! > I've tried and failed to come up with a reasonable definition of > science fiction which excludes "The Handmaiden's Tale". Still, > although I made the Please, the title of the book is "The Handmaid's Tale". There is a difference between "maid" and "maiden". jcpatilla {seismo,allegra}!mimsy!aplcen!osiris!jcp ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 22:52:22 GMT From: watdragon!hwarkentyne@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: The Handmaid's Tale Dani Zweig writes: >[part of review deleted] >Comparisons between this book and 1984 are inevitable, and >justified. It seems clear that many of the parallels are >deliberate. But this book is less fantastic than 1984, more >believable, more banal. I can't agree with this statement. While the Handmaid's Tale is not as "fantastic" as 1984, banal is hardly a word to describe it. Throughout the novel, we are aware of the climate of fear that the new Republic of Gilead has created and how people stifle their thoughts and emotions to go along with the state approved line. The experiences of Offred in her duties as a handmaid are far from banal. >This isn't a science fiction book. People who pick it up expecting >one will probably be disappointed. But a jaded science fiction >author, in racing past the 'setup' to the action, would not give us >as close and as powerful a view of this society, the potential for >which may be clearly seen in our own. On the other hand, a jaded >author of science fiction would probably have known better than to >compromise the impact and integrity of the book by ending it with >one of those tired 'scientists discussing the manuscript centuries >later' epilogues. A jaded science fiction author would leave a cliff hanger ending that would force everyone to buy the sequel. Again, I disagree with your opinion. Perhaps I have not read enough science fiction to find the method of ending the story "tired". To me, detailing the escape of Offred would have proved pointless to the novel. >I recommend reading this book. And if it hasn't captured you after >the first fifty pages or so, it won't. Often in discussing works of science fiction, people put "spoiler" warnings in their postings to warn people who haven't read some book that there will be some information revealed in the posting that will spoil the enjoyment of reading the work. As a recommendation of Handmaid's Tale, let me say that the entire plot could be revealed to you and that would not lessen in any way the enjoyment of reading it. I think Dani is trying to softpedal his opinions to avoid offending hard core "fans" by recommending a work of "literature". Ken Warkentyne ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 15:01:54 GMT From: bacall!kurtzman@rutgers.edu (Stephen Kurtzman) Subject: Re: The Handmaiden's Tale I, too, thought the ending to "The Handmaid's Tale" ruined an otherwise good book; perhaps ruined is too harsh, but it certainly did ruin the story's impact. It is the ending that places the book into the science fiction realm because it contains a lame discussion about the manuscript by some future academicians. If the ending were omitted, it would not be science fiction. It is social fiction. I think Shoshanna Green confuses science fiction and social fiction. There are some great SF books, such as "Brave New World" and "1984" that are also great social fiction. To my mind, science fiction must contain at least some tangential connection to science. Science fiction uses things such as space, space aliens, technology, or scientific mishaps to stimulate, move, or supplement the plot. This does not occur in "The Handmaid's Tale", except at the very end. "The Handmaid's Tale" does use the bible, the current fundamentalist popularity, and human nature to move the plot. (There is even a section of the book that makes Fred and his buddies look like kin to Jim Bakker.) Perhaps Margaret Atwood was being shrewd by including the ending. By it she insured that the SF readers would adopt the book. But by it she also marred an otherwise good novel. SJK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 87 14:34 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: Misconception about William Gibson From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer) >A collection of all of Gibson's short fiction (20) stories has just >been published, called _Burning_Chrome_. I believe he also has one >other novel besides _Neuromancer_, but I don't know what it is. >And that's *all*. He's a very new writer. I thought _Neuromancer_ >was awesome (almost as awesome as A.A.Attanasio's _Radix_ - you >should read it: Bantam-Spectra). Just to set the record straight, Gibson's first published story appeared in almost exactly ten years ago ("Fragments of a Hologram Rose" in Unearth Magazine). He might not be a prolific writer, but he's certainly not "very new." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Apr 87 11:12:30 CST From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: Madeleine L'Engle Cc: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM > In each one, the children are so totally astounded that strange > things are happening to them that you'd think that nothing strange > had ever happened to them before. Neither one refers to the > previous book(s) at all. Do I find myself disagreeing with Jayembee? Whoa! But I do believe that there were some slight back references. Weren't the Father and Charles Wallace working on a model of a tesseract at the beginning of "A Wind in the Door"? Granted, that's only a slight reference. I also believe that when the Cherubim (Progenoskes?) was going to transport them to another place, Meg asked if it was tessering. I don't think the children really acted like "nothing strange had ever happened to them before". The mother and the twins did, because not much remarkable did happen to them. And the school principal in "A Wind in the Door" wanted to think that it was all a bad dream because nothing strange had ever happened to him before either. I agree that the three stories were not strongly coupled, but I think they were inter-related a little bit (beyond the obviously necessary character development, although that should count for something anyway). It is a true trilogy, as opposed to something like "The Lord of the Rings" which is a single story in three volumes. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University phil@Rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Apr 87 19:38:14 EDT From: ST701135%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Re: Madeline l'Engel >Has anyone out there ever noted that small (people-aliens-magical >beings) tend to be viewed as childlike (I'm generalizing a bit - I >know) and' less intelligent as a rule? You bet. For a good example read the "fuzzy" series by H. Beam Piper: Little Fuzzy Fuzzy Sapiens Fuzzies and Other People They are (in my opinion) very good books that make this very point. Michael McClennen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 87 17:08:55 PST From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa Subject: Short Stories Someone asked about the short story and mentioned that a lot of discussion has gone into some of the major epics. I would like to add my 2,000,000 quatloos to the proceedings. I have been a major sink for short stories over the years. I started reading anthologies back in my Junior High library and have not stopped (although I did find a library with some older girls in it). In the meantime I have read my share of novels and epics. These include Foundation, Dune, LotR, the Unbeliever, Well of Souls, ad nauseum. I have also rubbed my eyes over a number of short story series, like Niven's Known Space, which I dearly loved. But through all these books, short stories still warm my heart, and here are some of my reasons. Short stories are short. They are designed to be read in one sitting (at least according to Poe they are). Thus, when you are under a lot of time constraints from work or school, you can still scarf down a short story before bed. You can't do this with a novella and many is the time I started to read only a chapter of a book and ended up finishing it at 4am. Plus, the short story generally has a strong theme, something many novels somehow miss. How many epics have good strong themes? Many tend to be a jumble of themes and some of them don't even bother. This can be good since many adventure stories would only be tied down by a theme, but I still prefer a nicely stated point. The short story is, as we all must know, a very precise art form; similar to painting with only a small brush. All the work of making up a universe and characters must be done quickly and succinctly, with no room for meandering. As such, the short story will continue to draw the attention of readers everywhere, both in and out of sf and mainstream fiction. To this end, allow me to nominate some of my favorite collections of short stories. Terry Carr's Best SF of the Year has published many excellent pieces of short fiction, including "Amanda and the Alien," and "The Morphology of the Kirkham Wreak." Issac Asimov's Fantasy and SF series (both of them) have had many good stories (I attribute this to Charles Waugh and MH Greenberg) in them. My favorite ones from the Fantasy series were Witches, Spells, and Cosmic Knights, while my favorites from the SF series was Tin Stars. Keep reading short SF. It's what started many a SF junkie. pugh@nmfecc.arpa National Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory PO Box 5509 L-561 Livermore, California 94550 (415) 423-4239 ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 04:32:57 GMT From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) Subject: Re: Short Stories I also love short stories, for exactly the reasons given in the earlier article. Two excellent sources of short stories are the "Dangerous Visions" anthologies (I know someone who's actually seen the completed manuscript for "The Last Dangerous Visions"), and "Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine." IAsfm has become much better under Gardner Dozois' editorship. Karen Williams g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 20:47:55 GMT From: carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore) Subject: Re: Short Stories I, too, am a lover of science fiction short stories. I find that the ones that stick in my mind over the years mostly seem to have a sort of mythic quality about them. Herein follow my nominations for all time favorites. Additions to the list welcomed. The Green Hills of Earth Robert Heinlein [arguably the best S.F. short story ever written] Requiem Robert Heinlein Nightfall Isaac Asimov Rescue Party Arthur C. Clarke The Star Arthur C. Clarke In Hiding William Shiras No Woman Born C. L. Moore Vintage Season Henry Kuttner The Man Who Lost The Sea Theodore Sturgeon [number five] He Who Shapes Roger Zelazny Neutron Star Larry Niven Brave to be a King Poul Anderson When it Changed Joanna Russ The Barbarian Joanna Russ Ender's Game Orson Scott Card [number four] Winter's King Ursula K. LeGuin [arguably second best] Semley's Necklace Ursula K. LeGuin The Day Before the Revolution Ursula K. LeGuin Pots C. J. Cherryh [number three] Just to forestall nit-picking: I know that both "Ender's Game" and "He Who Shapes" appeared as expanded book length works; I am talking about the original, gem-like, short stories. Semley's Necklace appeared as the introduction to Rocannon's World, but was later published as a stand alone short story. Carole Ashmore ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 00:18:19 GMT From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu Subject: WORLD DISTRIBUTERS (Manchester) Can anyone tell me if the publishers WORLD DISTRIBUTERS (Manchester) England still exists? If they are still kicking, could someone please E-mail or post their address? I am looking for a series of books they published in the mid 1960s under the series titles "THUNDERBIRDS" and "LADY PENELOPE". I know for sure of two in these series', the first is "LOST WORLD", in the Thunderbirds series, and the second is "COOL FOR DANGER", in the Lady Penelope series. These books are (were) available in Hardcover, and were at about the reading level of the Hardy Boys or Tom Swift books. Could someone please post or Email if they have ANY info on these series'? Thanks in advance. Sean Huxter P.O. Box 366 Springdale NF, Canada A0J 1T0 UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1 CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 18:51:38 GMT From: rael@ihlpa.ATT.COM (r.pietkivitch) Subject: A Voyage To Arcturus Several years ago I read an excellent book called "A Voyage To Arcturus" I think it was by Lindsey? I am not sure who the author is and would appreciate any help from net land. The story begins with a seance and the charactors end up chasing or following each other through several different worlds which were pretty "strange" to say the least. One of these worlds caused one of the characters to sprout an extra arm from his chest and I believe it was called a mang? Anyway, any help would be appreciated as I want to re-locate this book. Also, has this author written any other books that are worth reading? Thanks in advance! Bob Pietkivitch {ihnp4!}ihlpa!rael ------------------------------ Date: 01 Apr 87 16:48:39 EST (Wed) From: mberkman@cc5.bbn.com Subject: OH the embarrassment If that subject line starts you laughing, then you probably remember the story I am searching for. The plot completely escapes me, but the great part of the story was the apologies. A human was interacting with a member of a species that felt it necessary to offer the most outlandish apologies for the slightest error. They ran along the lines of: Oh the embarrassment. I . I am shamed and I die. Oh the embarrassment. My body decays and All die. Oh the embarrassment. I would really like to find this story. I'm sure it appeared in a magazine, probably Analog, probably late 79 or early 80, since I associate it with a particular dorm room I only inhabited that year. I've looked through my collection but can't find it. Any pointers would be appreciated. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 16:12:11 GMT From: princeton!mjg@rutgers.edu (Mordecai Golin) Subject: Story Request - The Handmaid's Tale Discussing Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tail" reminded me of some feminist Science Fiction I read years ago. Specifically there is a story whose title I can't remember but would like to recommend to some friends. The plot concerns a woman from our time whose mind travels to a future where there are no men. The body she inhabits (at least part of the time) belongs to another woman whose sole purpose in this new order is to carry babies. It is possible, but not very likely, that the author was Joanna Russ. I'd be grateful if anyone remembering this story would send e-mail to princeton!mjg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 6 Apr 87 1030-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #134 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Apr 87 1030-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #134 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 134 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Boskone (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 Mar 87 17:15:54 GMT From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon) paradis@encore.UUCP (Jim Paradis) writes: >castell@UMass.BITNET writes: >> 1b. Attendance in Boskone will be semi-invitational. ...people >> in the following groups will have an automatic invitation: ... >Well, so much for encouraging mundanes and neos to join the world >of fandom... when I went to my first Boskone 3 years ago, being >not very well-read in SF, I felt almost painfully out of place. >However, thanks to the willingness of the people around to welcome >"new blood", I became quite comfortable in short order. Now NESFA >is turning 180 degrees and making exclusivity an official policy. This is indeed the strongest argument against the restrictions. But what exactly do you suggest as an alternative? All the people who want to come were getting to be too many even for the largest hotel in Boston. With a probable reduction to a facility 1/3 the size, how can an open door policy possibly continue? Since restrictions seem necessary, why shouldn't NESFA pick groups that seem likely to be desireable rather than hold a lottery or something? Maybe it is not best for neos and mundanes to come in through the biggest cons such as Worldcons or big Boskones. NESFA does run two small open relaxacons a year, Codclave and Lexicon, and there are lots of smaller cons around. >>4. Boskone will have a "closing time," after which time there will >>be no official convention functions (con suite, films) and after >>which open parties will be asked to close. >Just curious, how forcefully will a party be "asked" to close? If >we're not bothering anyone, is Boskone still going to bother us? Probably not. Anyway, all you have to do is close your door and you are not an open party anymore. >>6. Costumes will be discouraged. >HOW are costumes going to be discouraged? This has not really been decided yet but for sure there are not going to be any hall costume prizes. I would think that, on average, just saying that cosumtes are discouraged would discourage them somewhat. >>7. No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or legal >>guardian. >> This was a painful policy to have to agree to. We know that it >>is unfair to those kids who show up and don't cause problems. >>However, a number of problems have been caused by teenagers who >>seem to view Boskone as a place to get away from parental >>supervision. >Since I'm sure every member of the con committee is over 18, I'm >REAL SURE this was a painful decision! (heavy sarcasm). You're >damn right it's unfair to the VAST MAJORITY of young fans who cause >no problems. Is there any PROOF that more problems were caused by >people under 18 than by those over 18??!! Or is this just a >convenient restriction to Well, one class of problems was energetic groups of people roaming the halls, banging on doors occasionally, and doing similar minor obstreperous things, not just till 2AM or 4AM, but in some cases there were large roving packs still going strong at 6 or 7 AM. Even if you are not bothered by the noise, this sort of thing (24-hour high energy level) was a prime reason Boskone was thrown out of the Sheraton. It is not interested in getting thrown out of its next hotel. >make because it's politically correct? Put it another way: If it >can I don't really understand what you mean by "politically". >be shown that the vast majority of troublemakers at prvious cons >were male, would NESFA then consider a policy of restricting men >from attending? I am sure the vast majority of troublemakers were male but they were probably a smaller percentage of the total male attendance than they were of the under 18 attendance. I agree with you for the most part that this is a bad policy. However, numerous exceptions will be made. For example, anyone working on Boskone XXIV, from gopher on up, will be exempt from the age restriction. I don't think it is going to be applied to people under 18 who are Boskone life members or members of NESFA (at least not members whose class of membership requires a vote of approval), etc. The word "legal" has been dropped from the policy so some people under 18 could be let in with an adult willing to take responsbility for them. As a matter of fact, it is not actualy clear that anyone is going to be kept out by this policy. Even so, I disagree with it and the only reason, being a NESFA member, that I didn't fight harder against it was that it was strongly argued that it would sound good to hotels (and it would be difficult to have a Boskone at all without a hotel) and in any case, these are one year restrictions to be re-evaluated next year. >One closing comment/flame retardant: Yes, I know that Boskone is >NESFA's event and they can do what they damn well please with it. >I'm not saying they CAN'T. I'm just saying I don't like it. It's not true that NESFA can do as it likes with Boskone. It can not let it go on as before because there are no facilities that will take it that way. Although there has been a lot of sentiment in NESFA for slowing or halting the growth of Boskone, it took losing ALL the big hotels in Boston coupled with an obvious increase in those attending who seem to view Boskone as a weekend of alcoholic parties away from parental supvervision to cause any real steps, such as these, to be taken. >One other question: My experience in the con scene is limited to >three Boskones. Should NESFA do what they intend to do, are there >any OTHER cons of like character to previous Boskones (Boskone >Classic, anyone? :-) )? I don't think there is a similar cons in Boston. However, you are welcome to try Lunacon (NY), Balticon (MD), Disclave (DC/MD), etc. >(What's wrong with holding Boskone in Worcester? 1/2 :-) ) Nothing. Donald E. Eastlake, III +1 617-492-8860 ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 02:40:26 GMT From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Re: Boskone XXV Info from INSTANT MESSAGE ecl@mtgzy.UUCP writes some material which makes me quite unhappy. It adresses some things which I have had no control over, and I am being penalized though no fault of my own. I happen to be one of the unfortunate people who do not meet the standards of what they think is deserving of admittance to Boskone. I come close, but, as we all know, that only counts in horse shoes hand grenades and nuclear weapons. >Attendees from 3 of the Last 5 Boskones [will be admitted] I've been at the last two, because I only knew about Boskone about two and a half years ago. Also, I went the first year unofficially with someone else's membership because that person couldn't go. Strike one. >People Who Have Purchased Art at Any of the Last 3 Boskones [will be admitted] Someone outbid me on the only piece of artwork that I had wanted. Basically, I lost because neither of us wanted to start bidding too far out of our price ranges. We flipped a coin, which seemed the semi-logical thing to do. I guess being rich is the real requirement here. Next time that I go (presuming I'm allowed, and also presuming that I *want* to go), I'll think of ransoming off someone's children so I can afford something. Strike two. >Others Known to the Committee, or Members of Established >SF Clubs I just *might* be able to get in based on this (I know someone who ran the consuite), but again, I'm not all that certain I want to go to a place where I might not be welcomed. Ball one? >Between now and the end of April, a letter will go to every person >who purchased a membership to Boskone 24, announcing that Boskone >25 will be a smaller, "private" convention for the "serious" >science fiction fan. I will eagerly await this... >3) Boskone policy will be that no alcohol be served at open parties. > 3a) Boskone will not promote parties in any way, except to > provide a bulletin board where open parties may be listed. > Boskone will not discourage parties, but will see that they > close at 2am, I hosted a small private party on the Friday of the con. I thought that things went pretty well. The party broke up before midnight because of the movie goings-on at the con. My group was "under control." I even went to the HASA party, which went quite well, for an open party. Like mine, it was run by responsible people, and no minors were served. The innocent are the ones to suffer here. >7) No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or guardian. >... We will make exceptions for: members of known SF clubs, gophers. Why wasn't this ever instituted? I don't think I would have initiated a convention *without* this to begin with! Stupid move on NESFA's part. >8) We will offer refunds to all those who have already purchased a >membership. No transfers are allowed. Read as: Anyone who doesn't like it, can leave right now. We won't take no guff. >9)Badge-checking will be carried out in all function areas, and >people holding private parties will be encouraged to check badges >as well. What gets me is that this all seems like logical things to do. Why wasn't it done in the past? I guess it takes a real crisis to make Boskone officials think. It makes me wonder how the con has survived for so long without some of these guidelines being enforced. I was looking forward to the gripe session when I was there this last time, and I didn't find it. I got stuck in the lobby during one of the late night alarm sessions. I was upset with the whole thing (though now I look back and sort of chuckle), and I was not even given a place to voice my complaints/comments/suggestions. Aside from that, just what is "Serious Science Fiction" anyway? Is it the type of fiction that only deals with such things as faster-than- light travel, high technology, and future societal expansion in a serious manner? Is it science fiction that is to be only one type of entertainment (print, it would appear) only? Is it science fiction created by a selected bunch of authors? If so, who selects the authors, and further, what if there's an author that doesn't belong to the "list" or even of the genre thought to be "serious?" Is he to be banned? This smacks of Sci-Fi fundamentalism to me, folks. Has anyone thought to ask the membership of NESFA? How about a general poll of people who have belonged for at least N years that are going to remain in NESFA for a while? What do *they* think????? I realize that the convention is run by a select bunch of people, and what they can handle is what they can handle. Sure, they run the con, but have they really thought of anyone but themselves in the matter? How about being honest with the NESFA public? I'm not a lifetime member, but I was considering doing so until quite recently. I understand that there was a lot of property damage done to the hotel. It's a shame that it happened. I kept a watchful eye out for anything happening, but nothing occurred around me. I just think the con committee is going about solving the problem the wrong way. If it's the way things are going to be, I don't think I want to belong to such a bunch of effete snobs. Sour grapes? Maybe... Jon ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 20:09:03 GMT From: GALLOWAY@VAXA.ISI.EDU (Tom Galloway) Subject: Boskone (what do you want in a con) A lot of people have been bemoaning the changes which are being made to Boskone, going on about how "it won't be the *fun* con it used to be". (I'll be addressing the comments people have been making about Boskone and the restrictions in another message). So I'm curious; what's your definition of a "fun con"? To some people, it involves carrying around fake weapons (re: the [to me at least] hysterically stupid "End The Toy Ray Gun Ban" flyer passed around at Boskone). To others, it involves drinking large quantities of alcohol and playing with the fire extinguishers. I think most people will agree that this is *not* what makes it fun for them. Well, this is the kind of thing that Boskone is trying to eliminate. But if your definition isn't one of the two above, what does make a con fun for you, and one you want to come back to. How about trying to be constructive instead of critical for a bit? tyg ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 17:48:45 GMT From: dykimber@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) Subject: Re: Boskone (what do you want in a con) GALLOWAY@VAXA.ISI.EDU.UUCP writes: >A lot of people have been bemoaning the changes which are being >made to Boskone, going on about how "it won't be the *fun* con it >used to be". So I'm curious; what's your definition of a "fun >con"? To some people, it... >But if your definition isn't one of the two above, what does make a >con fun for you, and one you want to come back to. How about trying >to be constructive instead of critical for a bit? My definition of a fun con, in part, is one that I can attend. I don't drink, wear costumes, carry firearms fake or real, do damage to hotels, or any of the the other things that, for good or bad Boskone has decided it doesn't like. But since Boskone has decided it doesn't want me to attend, I would hope that another con, one that doesn't have a secret society attitude, one that tries to attract new blood rather than being incestuous, will take its place, and those who still want to go to Boskone can enjoy themselves without being bothered by the rest of us. I would hope that no self-respecting writer of science fiction, except perhaps an up-and-comer, would support a closed door policy like this. Yes, this is critical and not constructive. But how can I be constructive when I'm being told I won't be admitted? What makes a con one I want to come back to? One I visited in the first place. I could list the different things I like to see and hear and read and watch and do at cons, but it won't help me to try to instigate some change if I'm not around to appreciate its effects. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 87 02:03:39 GMT From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: Boskone (what do you want in a con) Dan, I'm sorry to have to do this under this subject; I'd planned to incorporate what I'm about to say into a much longer article on Boskone and the way people are reacting to the changes. But your article was a reasonably considerate and well-written comment about how you don't like the "secret society" and "incestuous" attitudes that you perceive the committee having. The only problem is that you've got it all wrong; at least the motivation behind the decisions made for next year. Everybody, please read this; The committee did not decide to cut next year's Boskone from 4200 people to 1500-2000 people. The fact that the Sheraton does not want the con back, and that the only two other hotels in Boston that can physically hold a greater than 2000 person convention will not allow the con to be held there. The Boskone committee, due to decisions that they *had no control over* have NO choice but to cut attendance by 2200-2700 people; a factor of between 50 and 60% roughly. Given this fact of having to cut attendance this drastically (and once again, this was not something that was done by the committee), can you or anyone come up with a way of encouraging new people to come that makes any sense when the committee has to somehow get over 2000 people who were there last year not to show up next year? And given that they have to reduce attendance so drastically, can anyone offer any reason why they shouldn't attempt to reduce it to those people who are coming because it's a science fiction convention and not because it's a party? To conclude, I'll reiterate; Boskone attendance has to be cut by over half in one year, due to decisions by hotels, not the Boskone committee. They have *no* choice in this. tyg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 6 Apr 87 1116-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #135 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Apr 87 1116-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #135 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 135 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker (2 msgs) & Cooper (5 msgs) & Lindsay (3 msgs) & Wolfe & Post Holocaust (2 msgs) & Ace Specials ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Apr 87 14:35:15 EST From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) Subject: chalker Well, I've never been a major fan of Chalker, he has always seemed to be something of a hack writer, of the kind Spinrad would eliminate from the face of the Earth without a second thought (according to his articles). But his books usually are entertaining, so I continue to buy them, hoping he'll return to the quality shown by, say, Midnight at the Well of Souls (but not the later Well books), or And the Devil Will Drag You Under, both of which were very good, if not great. His latest though, Pirates of the Thunder, is very good. He actually has some interesting characters, moderately original gadgetry, and a real plot, more than you can say for some of his other recent series. It is the second in a perhaps interminable series, and I didn't like the first very much, and the odds are the others in the series will not be too good (given the general series track record), but you never know. Saying too much about the book would be a spoiler, since it is a mystery-style "what is going on here?" kind of series, but there are classic Chalker elements, from body-changing to self-aware computers.... If you like Chalker there is no reason not to go out and buy this one, and if you have been disappointed by his last spate of series, this one may still satisfy you. Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 19:29:52 GMT From: xanth!revell@rutgers.edu (James R Revell Jr) Subject: Re: Chalker (was "Information (details and Magic)) Even in newer book "The Messiah Choice" there is the almost standard sex-change. It does seem to have been overdone a bit at this point. Sorta makes one think he's got a hangup on the matter.... ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 04:39:17 GMT From: faline!b2@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries - One answer rhr@osupyr.UUCP writes: > The other author I am wondering about one a Newberry award (I > think) for one of her books in "The Dark is Rising" series. Her > first name is Susan. Also, the names of the books in the series > would be appreciated. The only title I can remember is "Silver on > the Tree", which was the last book of the series. Susan Cooper: The Dark is Rising Greenwitch The Grey King Silver on the Tree Collier Books has just published the series in a nice paperback edition. I just bought them to re-read after at least a 10 year hiatus. They are quite fine. And, unlike a lot of other titles coming out now, each book is only $2.95. Is anyone else tired of paying $3.50 or even $3.95 for 250 page efforts? Can anyone point me to the NJ chapter of F&SF Anonymous? b2 b2@bellcore.com {backbone}!bellcore!b2 ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 18:15:59 GMT From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries - One answer b2@faline.UUCP writes: > Susan Cooper: > The Dark is Rising > Greenwitch > The Grey King > Silver on the Tree The first book of this series is "Over Sea, Under Stone," which I didn't like as much as the others when I read it as a child, but which I liked much more when I reread it a couple of years ago. It introduces the three children and their uncle, Merriman Lyon. Karen Williams g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 22:17:13 GMT From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries - One answer williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes: >b2@faline.UUCP writes: >>Susan Cooper: > >>The Dark is Rising >>Greenwitch >>The Grey King >>Silver on the Tree > >The first book of this series is "Over Sea, Under Stone,".. Hmm. The current release has "The Dark is Rising" as the first book. Are you sure "Over Sea, Under Stone" isn't the English title for one of the other books? Though it does sound from the title like it might explain the events leading up to "Greenwitch". Incidentally, for people interested in these books, they are being released as mainstream and so are probably filed in the "wrong" section in your local bookstore. Scott R. Turner ARPA: srt@ucla UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 16:56:44 GMT From: eneevax!russell@rutgers.edu (Christopher Russell) Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries - One answer You've left off the first book, "Oversea, Understone", in which the three children (I've forgotten their names) who appear again in Greenwitch, together with their "Uncle Merry" locate the Grail of King Arthur, one of the weapons of the Light. These may be "Children's Books", but I loved them. I didn't read them until college, and they are my favorite fantasy books ever. I'm even trying to get some artists to make the six signs from "The Dark is Rising" as a Wedding present for a friend of mine. I've got someone to do the gold and the forged iron, however I'm still trying to find artists to do the cast bronze, cut crystal, carved rowan, and carved flint. Well, I've got a while until the wedding yet.... :-) Chris Russell Arpa: russell@king.ee.umd.edu UUCP: ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell Jnet: russell@umcincom Computer Aided Design Lab University of Maryland Fone: (301)454-8886/454-8950 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 22:20:53 GMT From: lssabel@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Laura Susanne Sabel) Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries - One answer >The Dark is Rising >Greenwitch >The Grey King >Silver on the Tree There's another one which comes before those four. It's called _Over Sea, Under Stone_. It introduces the four (three?) British children who show up later on in _Greenwitch_. Does anyone know if Susan Cooper ever wrote anything besides these five books? I thought they were all wonderful. Laura Sabel ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 00:29:03 GMT From: mjlarsen@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Michael J. Larsen) Subject: Re: A Voyage To Arcturus rael@ihlpa.ATT.COM (r.pietkivitch) writes: >Several years ago I read an excellent book called "A Voyage To >Arcturus" I think it was by Lindsey? I am not sure who the author >is and would appreciate any help from net land. The story begins >with a seance and the charactors end up chasing or following each >other through several different worlds which were pretty "strange" >to say the least. One of these worlds caused one of the charactors >to sprout an extra arm from his chest and I believe it was called a >mang? Anyway, any help would be appreciated as I want to re-locate >this book. Also, has this author written any other books that are >worth reading? Thanks in advance! A_Voyage_to_Arcturus is by David Lindsay. As far as I know, it is the only thing he ever wrote. It concerns a spiritual odyssey on the planet Tormance of the star Arcturus. The extra arm to which you allude is called a magn, and is one of several different extra limbs sported by Arcturans. Lindsay once remarked that, although his book would never achieve real popularity, it would always appeal strongly to a few people, and that he might hope for one reader a year for as long as the English language survived. I believe the book is still in print, although the copy I have in front of me was printed over ten years ago. Michael Larsen ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 05:16:51 GMT From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry) Subject: Voyage to Arcturas I think the author was David Lindsay. I have heard several times he did write one more book, but I have never been able to find it (or even people who have read Voyage). All I can remember offhand was that the title was something like a woman's name. The real problem was that after such a good start, the bloke had to be so grossly inconsiderate as to die young. Forgive my lack of mythology, but I alway felt many of the names should ring a bell. Isn't Shapur from some middle eastern religion (Zoroastrians?) I have forgotten most of the other names, but were any of them significant? Allan ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 10:21:29 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: A Voyage to Arcturus From: ihlpa!rael (Bob Pietkivitch) > Several years ago I read an excellent book called "A Voyage To > Arcturus" I think it was by Lindsey? I am not sure who the author > is and would appreciate any help from net land. ... Also, has this > author written any other books that are worth reading? Thanks in > advance! A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS was written by David Lindsay. I don't know if any of his other work is "worth reading" (I haven't even read AVTA, let alone anything else of his), but here are some other titles that fall within the sf/fantasy genre (from R. Reginald's SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY LITERATURE): THE HAUNTED WOMAN (1922) SPHINX (1923) ADVENTURES OF MONSIEUR DE MAILLY (1926) [aka A BLADE FOR SALE] DEVIL'S TOR (1932) --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 17:03:12 GMT From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Severian's Mother and _Castle of the Otter_ In response to an earlier posting of mine: In _Castle of the Otter_, a 1982 volume concerning _The Book of the New Sun_, Wolfe does indeed state that Holy Katherine, the patron of the guild of torturers (note that this in not capitalized, as it is not the proper name of the Order), is Saint Catherine of Alexandria. Catherine was tried and put to death for criticizing the treatment of Christians at the hands of Maxentius, a Roman Emperor. (Time frame: fourth century.) She was placed on the wheel, but it broke down, and she was then decapitated. She forgave her executioner. That chapter of _Castle_ goes on to describe the evolution of the story "The Feast of Saint Catherine", which Wolfe originally saw as a novella, into the tetralogy it is today. I found _Castle_ to be a delightful and fascinating book. It contains a great deal of information on the _BoTNS_, including a glossary of _Shadow of the Torturer_, discussions of futuristic cavalry, advice to beginning writers, a description of Wolfe's (then current, only recently abdicated) position as a senior editor of _Plant Engineering_ magazine, and a chapter of jokes told by the characters of the _Book_. Most importantly, it contains a chronological bibliography of Wolfe's spec-fic works. It is available as a limited edition (signed and numbered, I believe) published by Zeisling Bros, and also in an edition from the Science Fiction Book Club. I don't know how to order it from the SFBC; I got my copy from an ad in _Locus_. I will share with you my favorite joke from _Castle_. It is told by Master Ash, the Last Man. "Once a man such as I, a man who walks the corridors of time, was approached by a rich woman. "I wish to see the end of the world," she said. "Show it to me, and I will double your fortune." "Doubled, my fortune would remain but small," said the scholar. "Tripled, if you like," said the woman. Then the rich woman told him all her riches should do to him and his children if he did not obey her. "Very well then," said the scholar. "Would you like to see the time when the sun swells and Urth falls thereto like a cinder in a grate?" "No," said the rich woman. "That is only a larger fire, and I have seen many fires." "Then would you see the Grand Gnab, when the universe shall fall into itself?" "No," said the rich woman. "For that is not the end of anything, but the beginning of a new universe." "Then tell me what I must show you," said the scholar. The rich woman took thought with herself, and at last she said, "Show me the end of life. I would see the last agonies of the last creature to live upon Urth." "Very well," said the scholar; and they stood upon a plain of ice, with the red sun no brighter than the moon. "Where is the last creature?" said the woman. "That is what I wish to see. Here every thing is already dead." A cold wind scoured the plain, and she drew her furs more tightly around her. "Why no," the scholar told her. "You live, and so do I." Handing her a mirror, he vanished down the corridors of time. The preceeding joke was Copyright 1982 by Gene Wolfe, and was included as part of a review of _Castle of the Otter_. This posting is in no way intended to infringe upon the copyright of Mr. Wolfe. All rights reserved. It may not be duplicated by any means for any purposes without written permission of the copyright holder. Kevin J. Maroney mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 21:39:11 GMT From: oliveb!bobd@rutgers.edu (Robert Duncan) Subject: Post-Holocaust Works A few years ago I read a great book called Riddley Walker. It was a post holocaust book dated far after the last war. The language was in a bastardized English which was a little hard to read, but you could figure out the words with a little work. The story of the ONE BIG ONE was kept alive as folklore through traveling Punch and Judy shows. If you enjoy linguistics, this is a great book well worth the effort to read it. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 87 06:15:39 GMT From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works bobd@oliveb.UUCP (Robert Duncan) writes: >A few years ago I read a great book called Riddley Walker. It was >a post holocaust book dated far after the last war. The language >was in a bastardized English which was a little hard to read, but >you could figure out the words with a little work. The story of >the ONE BIG ONE was kept alive as folklore through traveling Punch >and Judy shows. If you enjoy linguistics, this is a great book >well worth the effort to read it. I am reading this book right now for a SF English class. The "phonetic" spelling is *very* hard to read, but so far it has been pretty much worth it. I have been very impressed at the attitudes the society depicted portrays towards science, the past, liberalism in general, and other things. It seems to me that this society projected about another 200 years into the future would be a very nice one to live in. Even though it does not have very high levels of technology, it is a far from primitive society. Worth reading even if you *don't* like linguistics. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 87 02:28:53 GMT From: reed!soren@rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen) Subject: Re: The "New Ace Science Fiction Specials" - where are they? I have a related question. Does anyone have a list of the *old* Ace Specials? I've been trying to collect them (especially the ones with the really cool abstract/cubist covers by Leo Dillon). There were some really good novels there in the original series, such as *Pavane* by Keith Roberts, *Rite of Passage* by Alexei Panshin, and a whole slew by D.G. Compton and R.A. Lafferty, and as far as I've been able to find, no truly bad ones. Anyway, does anyone have a complete list? Jayembee, perhaps? thanks in advance soren f petersen tektronix!reed!soren ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 Apr 87 0811-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #136 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Apr 87 0811-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #136 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 136 Today's Topics: Books - Saberhagen (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Apr 87 07:00:26 GMT From: looking!brad@rutgers.edu Subject: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen I recently read a compilation of stories about robots called Berserkers. They are machines programmed to destroy all life, who often come and attack humans. While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that the concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by Glen A. Larson. The Berserkers are robots, created long ago by an ancient race to help them in wars. The ancient race is now dead, probably killed by the robots, but the Berserkers roam the universe attempting to wipe out all life they can find. This is the same history that the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica have. It's so close, and BG is so well known, that it is hard to believe that Saberhagen might not have known of the Cylons. If this isn't enough, the Berserker stories often contain humans who betray mankind and work for the robots. They are called "goodlife", and are obviously taken from Baltar, the traitor in Battlestar Galactica. There are some differences, which is probably how Saberhagen avoided a lawsuit, but that's not the way to write good S.F. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 87 01:21:49 GMT From: hubcap!beede@rutgers.edu (Michael Beede) Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen brad@looking.UUCP says: > I recently read a compilation of stories about robots called > Berserkers. [ . . . ] > > While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that > the concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by > Glen A. Larson. [ . . . ] I note an April 1st dateline here. Assuming that this was a sally, my complements. It is very droll. Assuming this was merely posted by accident on the 1st, I would suggest you learn to read copyright dates before making insulting comments about one of the best authors in the field. To quote a famous fictional character: "Flummery." (Attributation is left as am excercise for the reader. Identification of the science fiction story where he made a "guest appearance" is worth double points). Mike Beede Computer Science Dept. Clemson University Clemson SC 29631-1906 UUCP: . . . ! gatech!hubcap!beede ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 87 23:35:22 GMT From: reed!soren@rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen) Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen brad@looking.UUCP writes: >While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that the >concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by Glen >A. Larson. > >There are some differences, which is probably how Saberhagen >avoided a lawsuit, but that's not the way to write good S.F. This is a joke, right? Saberhagen has been writing Berserker stories since the sixties. Battlestar Galactica first appeared in 1978. If anyone should have been sued it was the BG people (who were sued by the makers of *Star Wars*, but that's a different story altogether). Really, I hadn't realized they were so similar. But all this avoids the larger issue of whether you can copywrite ideas. My impression is that you can't. For instance, I read a serial in ANALOG called *Dawn* which was about a world in a multiple star system which was never dark except once every uncountable eons. Needless to say, this is the exact scenario of Asimov's 1943 story "Nightfall". So did Asimov sue? Of course not, the new story had a completely different approach. Despite the shared setting, the story was very different. There was no question that the new guy (sorry, forget his name) was ripping off Asimov. soren f petersen tektronix!reed!soren ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 87 20:42:27 GMT From: sunybcs!twomey@rutgers.edu (Bill Twomey) Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen brad@looking.UUCP writes: >I recently read a compilation of stories about robots called >Berserkers. They are machines programmed to destroy all life, who >often come and attack humans. > >While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that the >concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by Glen >A. Larson. > [ ... ] >There are some differences, which is probably how Saberhagen >avoided a lawsuit, but that's not the way to write good S.F. I think Saberhagen's books came first. I don't have any books around to check the copyright dates, can someone check? The question should be, How did Larson avoid the lawsuit? ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 87 18:32:57 GMT From: ee171aai@sdcc13.ucsd.EDU Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen brad@looking.UUCP writes: >betray mankind and work for the robots. They are called >"goodlife", and are obviously taken from Baltar, the traitor in >Battlestar Galactica. > >There are some differences, which is probably how Saberhagen >avoided a lawsuit, but that's not the way to write good S.F. Gee, I thought he avoided it by writing them before Battlestar Galactica came out :-) Seriously, at the time that that show was created, I was very surprised that Saberhagen didn't sue. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 87 07:53:41 GMT From: uokmax!rmtodd@rutgers.edu (Richard Michael Todd) Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen brad@looking.UUCP writes: > While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that > the concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by > Glen A. Larson. The Berserkers are robots, created long ago by an > ancient race to help them in wars. The ancient race is now dead, > probably killed by the robots, but the Berserkers roam the > universe attempting to wipe out all life they can find. This is > the same history that the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica have. > It's so close, and BG is so well known, that it is hard to believe > that Saberhagen might not have known of the Cylons. It's hard to believe that Saberhagen's stories were based on anything from Prattlestar Galaxative, considering that the first Berserker story ("Without a Thought") appeared in 1963!!! Perhaps we should be asking where Glen Larson got the idea from! For that matter, remember the "Doomsday Machine" episode of Star Trek? It was a single robotic device instead of a whole bunch, but it's basically the same principle. I don't remember if anybody used this idea before Saberhagen did, but I wouldn't be surprised if somebody did do so. > If this isn't enough, the Berserker stories often contain humans > who betray mankind and work for the robots. They are called > "goodlife", and are obviously taken from Baltar, the traitor in > Battlestar Galactica. It isn't at all obvious, considering that all the stories in the first Berserker book (including the ones introducing the goodlife concept) came out long before anyone heard of Baltar. It seems fairly obvious (to me) that if you had this race of robots attacking, there would be some people who work for them and even worship them as gods. > There are some differences, which is probably how Saberhagen > avoided a lawsuit, but that's not the way to write good S.F. If I remember correctly, Glen Larson didn't manage to avoid a lawsuit from George Lucas :-) Richard Todd USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069 UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 87 21:24:28 GMT From: percival!leonard@rutgers.edu (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen brad@looking.UUCP writes: >I recently read a compilation of stories about robots called >Berserkers. They are machines programmed to destroy all life, who >often come and attack humans. > >While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that the >concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by Glen >A. Larson. *** Flame on! **** You might just try checking your facts before posting such accusations to the net. I'm not sure when Saberhagen started writing the stories but I was reading them as early as the late 60's! They *far* predate Battlestar Galactica. *** Flame off **** Whenever you feel the you see such 'stolen ideas' in the future, please check the copyright dates on the stories. And in the case of an ongoing series (like the Berserker stories) check the library (and Books in Print) to see how long the series has been going. Leonard Erickson CIS: [70465,203] tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 87 19:39:17 GMT From: sdeggo!dave@rutgers.edu (David L. Smith) Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen brad@looking.UUCP writes: > This is the same history that the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica > have. It's so close, and BG is so well known, that it is hard to > believe that Saberhagen might not have known of the Cylons. May I put it, rather mildly, that the reverse is more true? The Berserker stories have been around for a *long* time. I can't think of any author *wanting* to rip off Cattlecar Galactica. > There are some differences, which is probably how Saberhagen > avoided a lawsuit, but that's not the way to write good S.F. Substitute Glen A Larson for Saberhagen and you'll have a sentence that's true, at least as far as good SF goes. David L. Smith sdcsvax!sdamos!sdeggo!dave ihnp4!jack!man!sdeggo!dave hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave sdeggo!dave@sdamos.ucsd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 00:20:02 GMT From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen >>While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that >>the concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by >>Glen A. Larson. (Note: April Fool's joke) >But all this avoids the larger issue of whether you can copywrite >ideas. My impression is that you can't. For instance, I read a >serial in ANALOG called *Dawn* which was about a world in a >multiple star system which was never dark except once every >uncountable eons. Needless to say, this is the exact scenario of >Asimov's 1943 story "Nightfall". So did Asimov sue? I recall that the author explicitly acknowledged his debt to Asimov. As for the Battlestar Galactice Ripoff issue, something that comes to mind (note: no April Fool's joke here!) is an episode of Galactica 1980 titled something like "The Return of Starbuck" (the only one, I believe, where Starbuck shows up). This seemed suspiciously like the short story (later novel, and motion picture) "Enemy Mine". I didn't notice at first because I didn't read "Enemy Mine" until I got the appropriate IA'SFM issue as a back issue. Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701@JHUVM, INS_AKAA@JHUVMS, INS_AKAA@JHUNIX ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins, seismo!umcp-cs, ihnp4!whuxcc} !jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 08:27:10 GMT From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) writes: >As for the Battlestar Galactice Ripoff issue, something that comes >to mind (note: no April Fool's joke here!) is an episode of >Galactica 1980 titled something like "The Return of Starbuck" (the >only one, I believe, where Starbuck shows up). This seemed >suspiciously like the short story (later novel, and motion picture) >"Enemy Mine". I didn't notice at first because I didn't read >"Enemy Mine" until I got the appropriate IA'SFM issue as a back >issue. Wow, now that you mention it, it was... I only read Enemy Mine" after buying Asimov's Hugo Winners series over the summer. "The Return of Starbuck" was (In my opinion) the only decent episode of an otherwise worthless series. (G: 1980, not Battlestar Galactica which was a cool show. ) Stephen Pearl VOICE: (201)932-3465 US MAIL: LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903 UUCP: ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl ARPA: PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 18:45:51 GMT From: ccastkv@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti) Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen >I think Saberhagen's books came first. I don't have any books >around to check the copyright dates, can someone check? The >question should be, How did Larson avoid the lawsuit? Saberhagen's stories do indeed come first. There was no real basis for a lawsuit if you compare the Berserkers to the Cylons. The Berserkers were robotic war devices created by an alien race long since dead. The Cylons were robots created by an alien race also long since dead. There the resemblence ends. The Berserkers were programmed to destroy anything living. The Cylons were merely programmed to conquer the universe. Humanity was the biggest threat to the Cylons, therefore they were out to destroy all of humanity. Unlike the Berserkers, Cylons were content with capturing a planet without killing everyone on it. In numerous episodes of Cattlecar Galactica we saw civilizations that the Cylons allowed to live under their domination. And let's not forget the one episode of Galactica 1980 that was actually worth watching, "Starbuck's Last Mission." Here were see a Cylon actually befriend a human and, in the end, give his life to save that human. Something a Berserker could never have done (the practical joker berserker story doesn't count as the Berserker's brain was reset whereas the Cylon's wasn't). You might as well ask why everyone who has ever written a story containing a robot hasn't been sued by the first person to use a robot in a story. Keith Vaglienti Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 19:31:23 GMT From: dand@tekigm2.TEK.COM (Dan Duval) Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen brad@looking.UUCP writes: > I recently read a compilation of stories about robots called > Berserkers. They are machines programmed to destroy all life, who > often come and attack humans. > > While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that > the concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by > Glen A. Larson. Negatory, son. Saberhagen's Berserker stories predate Battlebore Galactica by some number of years. I recall the first story I read by Saberhagen being before I escaped from high school, circa 1973 (or maybe 300B.C...it was a long time ago.) The one I read (and naturally I can't remember the title and I'm too lazy to go home and look it up) was where the scout pilot was being bombarded with "stupidity" rays and yet had to convince the berserker that he was not affected. So he trained his pet monkey to compare a game board to the positions drawn on boxes of colored beads and choose moves randomly by drawing a bead, throwing away moves that resulted in lost games and replacing the beads for games won. Ha! Artificial intelligence research CAN be useful. An application right here in front of us. > It's so close, and BG is so well known, that it is hard to believe > that Saberhagen might not have known of the Cylons. ... There > are some differences, which is probably how Saberhagen avoided a > lawsuit, but that's not the way to write good S.F. Yeah, how did Gary Larson avoid a lawsuit? And Battlebore certainly wasn't the way to write good S.F. Except for the transposition of names, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Dan C Duval ISI Engineering Tektronix, Inc. tektronix!tekigm2!dand ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 Apr 87 0827-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #137 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Apr 87 0827-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #137 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 137 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Disneyland's Star Tours (2 msgs) & Back Cover Writers & What Gets You First & Dating Books & Conventions (2 msgs) & Star Wars III Synopsis & An Opinion & Terminology (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Mar 87 23:34:04 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Star Tours PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa writes: >I just went to Disneyland this weekend and I wanted to review their >newest addition, a ride named Star Tours. This new ride was >created by a team from Disney and Lucasfilms and is set in a Star >Wars motif (thus it's review here). > >The ride itself consists of a spacecraft simulator, a cute robot >pilot, and a movie of the view out the front of the ship. There >are actually four ships with room for about 35-40 people each, so >they move people through pretty quickly. The flight takes about 12 >minutes and is very rough. I've been on the Star Tours ride too and also loved it (I waited for over three hours in line!), but it's worth noting that explicit timing with a watch reveals that the ride, from the time the shield in front of the viewscreen lowers to the time it comes back up and the lights go on, is less than six minutes. Having exciting things happen really stretches one's time sense. Once you get inside the building, however, there are a lot of nifty things to watch (it's set up as a tourist travel agency), so the last half-hour of the line can sort of count as part of the ride. (Including a P.A. system that announces at one point, "Will the owner of a red landspeeder, license number THX-1138, please move your vehicle? You are parked in a no-hover zone.") Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 87 07:35 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Star Tours Cc: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa Jon, you left out one of the more impressive parts of the "ride" in your review. Before you get to the actually ride, the line passes through the "terminal" and through a robotics shop (why the latter, I'm not sure). In the terminal, C3PO and R2D2 work on a ship, with a continuous dialog, plus a lot of announcements over the terminal loudspeaker. In the robot shop, you see an odd little droid working away and keeping up a running monologue of horrible puns. I liked him. I even forgave him when he turned around, aimed his soldering gun right at me and said "Stick 'em up!" Certainly, it makes waiting in line more fun. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 16:29:54 GMT From: faknabe@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Frederick Albert Knabe) Subject: Re: Back cover writers > Is there any reason authors don't write their own back covers? > That way, we could tell what the book's about without reading the > first chapter. Some authors DO get to write their back covers, believe it or not. Ellen Kushner's new book (her first novel, although she has edited many other books) has back cover copy written by her. This information from her at a writers' workshop she ran. Fritz Knabe Princeton University ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 03:21:48 GMT From: mcgill-vision!mouse@rutgers.edu (der Mouse) Subject: Re: What gets you first ? > If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit, > what is the result? I'm well aware that the outlook is not good, > :-), but what is it that kills you? Probably the vacuum. :-) > There seem to be a whole list of candidates, such as going "POP" > in a messy way, or something subtle, (but equally nasty), like > boiling blood. Hm. If you stay out till you die, probably anoxia. If you get back to atmosphere but die of the complications, probably either bends or burst lungs (depending in part on what you were breathing to begin with). > Does it make any difference if you are "near" a star, in deep > space, or in the shade of a spaceship? If you are sufficiently near a star, you will be roasted first (I realize the "sufficiently" makes this a tautology, but a spaceship can likely survive much nearer than you can). I would expect you to smother before you freeze, particularly if you are dressed warmly, since the only mode of heat loss is radiation. Someone said something about how all the air would rush out of your lungs &c and possibly burst your eardrums. Would it really? Is the human respiratory tract too weak to hold in one atmosphere? How much pressure (differential) can the human lungs produce (eg, when blowing up a balloon or something) and therefore contain? How much pressure (differential) can the eardrums withstand? Does anyone have numbers (I daresay fairly little experimentation has been done - anybody wanna volunteer? :-) mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 87 06:20:27 GMT From: mcgill-vision!mouse@rutgers.edu (der Mouse) Subject: Re: Another Trivia question dma@euler.Berkeley.EDU (D. M. Auslander) writes: >pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes: >> I was reading a fairly early sf book recently and it occurred to >> me that it is posible to roughly date a book by the sort of >> assumptions it makes [...] > > Two more things that came to mind: > > 2) In early sf, all life forms are carbon based (and somewhat > human metabolically.) There seems to be a general progression > from carbon based/humanoid thru [...] all the way to non carbon > based (e.g. silicon based or even sentient machine in the most > extreme form) I seem to recall an early SF story (Martian Odessey? (did I spell that right? spell didn't help) - it was set on Mars) which had a silicon-based lifeform (no, *not* Andy Beals!). It also mentioned half a dozen others, presumably but not explicitly carbon-based. mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 22:45:15 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Announcement of Unicon'87 Unicon 87 will be held on the traditional third weekend in July (17-19). The principal guests are: G-O-H: David Brin Artist: David Mattingly Fan: Marty Gear with the usual cast of other guests. The convention is being held in the Annapolis Holiday Inn, which is really a bit outside of town. (For the locals, it's in Parole at the intersection of US 50/301 and Md. Rt. 2 -- very close to Annapolis Mall.) THose of you on the net who would like a flyer can send me a message containing your US Postal address. If you can't wait, the address of the convention is UNICON'87 PO Box 7553 Silver Spring, MD 20907 ****NOTE THAT THIS IS DIFFERENT FROM THE OLD ADDRESS!!!**** If you are driving to the convention, you will want a flyer, since it has a map to help you get there (the exit from US 50 is kind of weird). C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 08:02:46 PDT (Monday) Subject: Convention Notice: Plan Ahead From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM I know this is a bit early, but here it is anyway. CONTRADICTION 7 OCTOBER 2-4, 1987 GOH: ANNE McCAFFREY FANGOH: MIKE GLICKSOHN SPECIAL GUESTS: JOAN D. VINGE, NANCY KRESS, JIM FRENKEL, T.S. HUFF WHERE: Ramada Inn, 410 Buffalo Ave., Niagara Falls NY 14303 See one of the Natural Wonders of the World! (Niagara Falls, that is.) Note our international guest list! Art show, masquerade, parties, and special midnight chocolate banquet. For info, write CONTRADICTION, PO Box 2043, Newmarket Station, Niagara Falls, NY 14301 USA. Or come to our party at Ad Astra! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Apr 87 23:18 EDT From: Andrew Sigel Subject: Spurious STAR WARS III story treatment The "STAR WARS III story treatment" run through SF-LOVERS on 21 Mar 1987 (and the digest nearly two weeks later) is naught but fan fiction, and should have been labelled as such. For the story behind this piece of work, I take the liberty of reprinting a letter to the editor written by Linda Deneroff (a well known SW fan) that appeared in the April 1987 issue of SF CHRONICLE: The other day I saw your January issue and read Marvin Kaye's column. Being an unreformed fan of STAR WARS, I enjoyed the column immensely. But I do want to point out a factual error. Mr. Kaye referred to "The Fall of the Republic" as an outline for one of the films for the non-existent (as of now) first SW trilogy. This outline, however, was written by John Flynn of Maryland. I've met Flynn on several occasions and he acknowledged writing and submitting it to LucasFilm, and also acknowledges that LucasFilm rejected it. Maureen Garrett, formerly of the Star Wars Fan Club run by LucasFilm, also tracked him down, warning him that he could not sell it as the outline for the first trilogy, only as another piece of fan fiction. Flynn told both of us that it was "unscrupulous dealers" who had picked it up and were reproducing and selling it as the genuine article. This may explain why there is nothing "new" in that outline. I'm sure whatever ideas Mr. Lucas or his chosen writers have now or in the future are being kept strictly under lock and key. Mr. Kaye or anyone else who purchased the outline thinking it was official has been, regrettably, misinformed. Where this particular version of the Flynn piece materialized from doesn't really matter. What does matter is that the George Lucas attribution is plainly specious, and possibly actionable. It would be nice if people would check the provenance of their material before posting it (and thus sending it via the net to more people than had read it in all the illicit print versions). There are also far better examples of SW fan fiction out there. I don't think SF-LOVERS is the proper forum for them, either. Andrew Sigel sigel@cs.umass.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 87 10:00 EST From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Opinions on unpublished material I, for one, do not think that the SF-Lovers Digest is the appropriate place to solicit criticism of literary efforts. It's not the general principal I disagree with. If the doors are opened to this kind of thing then the digest will be deluged not only with long potential plotlines, but with massive amounts of critical feedback reguarding these plots. Poor Saul is already busier that a one-armed paper-hanger with body lice. As a general rule, I believe we should stick to discussing PUBLISHED fiction. After all, what are FANZINES for? The fact is that a high percentage of SF-Lovers are aspiring SF writers. I am myself, and I'm sure many of you reading this are. I think it would be a better idea just to submit tips on how to write better. As an example, here are a few guidelines that I try to live by: 1) Read, read, read. The best readers make the best writers. 2) Write, write, write. In writing, as in anything, practice makes perfect. 3) Be familiar with the basic rules of grammar and punctuation. 4) Use a dictionary! Spelling mistakes show carelessness, and create a negative impression on potential publishers. 5) Keep a small notepad and pen with you at all times to jot down those elusive ideas as they occur to you. Otherwise, you will forget more than you commit to paper. 6) Be familiar with common and extreamly over-used ideas, the better to avoid cliche situations. Of course, if you REALLY have a new approach to an old concept, that's a different story. Write on! Joseph St.Lawrence Yale University BITNET: SAINT@YALEADS.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 22:36:36 GMT From: inuxm!arlan@rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: SF vs. "Skiffy"--filked Some years ago, this is what some Midwestern fen agreed was a proper orientation about the SF vs. "Skiffy" controversy: "Please Don't Say Sci-Fi!" (Filk, presented in the musical parody "Up The Creek" Inconjunction I, Indianapolis, Indiana, July 3, 1981, by the "It's Not OUR Fault!" players) lyrics by Arlan Andrews (c) 1981 (melody, it is rumored, sounds a bit like the song "Fie On Goodness!", from the musical "Camelot"...) [Spoken:] "...Are you folks, by any chance, SCI FI fans?" ... "We've all woke up on Riverworld We hoped YOU could tell us why. But there's no Riverworldy reason You should EVER say SCI FI!" [Sung:] When you mean to speak of science fiction And want to rate as a fan/In th' world's eye If you mean to speak with deep conviction Don't say SCI FI! Don't say SCI FI! NEVER say SCI FI! Not ever say SCI FI! If you have just arrived in science fiction A neofan, with head up in the sky Be sure to practice up your fannish diction And don't say SCI FI! Don't say SCI FI! NEVER say SCI FI When plain "SF" will do And then all the trufen will adore you It's just that way/Don't bother asking why And if their conversations ever bore you Just look in their eyes/No matter their size, saying Please don't say SCI FI! FI! FI! FI! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Apr 87 10:17:34 EST From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: (hopefully) last on terminology SCI-FI What you call science fiction when you're in high school and talking about it to all the jerks around you who still don't understand and harrass you anyway. SF What you call science fiction when you go to college and join the local club and find other people just like you. You call it sf now since you don't want to sound like a high school geek. SCIFFY What you call science fiction at a con suite to startle and annoy all the snobby sf people around you i.e. just for kicks. S&F My own creation 'nuff said! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Apr 87 15:02 EST From: (Kaile Goodman) Subject: Trekker vs. Trekkie elb@mtx5c.UUCP (Ellen Bart) writes: >Excuse me Russell, but many of us call ourselves Trekkers to >distinguish ourselves from Star Trek groupies (Trekkies). > >Under this system a Trekker cares about the consistency between >episodes, how the warp engines work, and what happened to the >tribbles after the Klingons got them. We may care about whether >the Enterprise is a Starship or Constitution Class ship, and we may >watch the cartoons. > >A trekkie, however, may (or may not) care about those things, but >for sure he/she cares about Nichelle Nichols's astrological sign >and whether William Shatner got an 'A' in French in 9th grade. I, as usual, wasn't even aware there were two terms. (I didn't know about SF either. I had been calling this digest Sci-Fi-Lovers until the topic came up. I figured SF was just another example of the multitude of abbreviations I find all over my Computer magazines and in so many of the comments on the net. I didn't know you actually said "ess-eff".) I've called myself a trekkie since I was in about fourth grade and started stealing and reading my older brother's Star Trek books. They were "Star Trek 3" and "The Making of Star Trek". (I have since acquired my own books.) I knew all the episodes inside and out for years. Some of that has slipped, since I've only been able to see Star Trek on weeknights at midnight for about six years, and, well, that makes work a little too complicated the next day. I have to say, however, that it seems a little silly to worry about consistency between the episodes. I mean, we're talking about a TV show. They aren't exactly known for their consistency. Bad story editors, I'd guess. My favorite example of this has to be "The Odd Couple", which must have had a different explanation every season of how Oscar and Felix met. Kaile Goodman ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 Apr 87 0907-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #138 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Apr 87 0907-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #138 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 138 Today's Topics: Books - Alexander & Farmer & Heinlein (4 msgs) & Rand (2 msgs) Miscellaneous - The Death of Patrick Troughton (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Apr 87 13:49:13 GMT From: cblpe!bcm@rutgers.edu (Bob Morman) Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries rhr@osupyr.UUCP (The Fugitive Guy) writes: >I was wondering if Alexander Lloyd ( of the Black Cauldron series ) >has written any other fantasy works. I would also like the name of >the books in the Black Cauldron series that are not listed here. Is this the same Black Cauldron as the recent Walt Disney animated movie ? Bob Morman AT&T Bell Labs Columbus, OH. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 19:12:32 GMT From: jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini) Subject: Philip Jose' Farmer Hello out there in net-land. I just finished reading Phillip Jose' Farmer's "Riverworld series". (To Your Scattered Bodies Go, et al) and I was confused on a few points. I was hoping that someone more literate than I could answer them. 1) Why were the people resurrected in the first place? I understood about the failing computer endangering the collective wathan's and that the "experiment" was to run for 120 years only. I was left somewhat in the dark as to the real purpose of the resurrections. 2) I do have some other critisisims (sic) which I would like to bounce off the net and get other opinions on. A) I felt that Farmer did not adequately explored parent/child relationships. If I were resurrected I think I would try to find my Mother and Father . I should imagine most people would. B) I realize that Farmer had to draw the line somewhere but I would used some "bigger" characters in the book. Einstein, George Washington, Ceasar, JFK, Robert E. Lee, Charlemange, Brian Boru, Ghandi, etc. What I mean is include some bigger than life characters. C) Lastly, I can see why he would want to avoid putting Christ in the book, except for quacks claiming to be Him. But I would have included someone like John the Baptist. or at least a pope or apostle. Like I said, I welcome the opinions of others on this marvelous series. James J. Alpigini Raytheon SSD W. Main Rd Portsmouth, RI 02871-1087 {cbosgd,gatech,ihnp4,linus,mirror,uiucdcs}!rayssd!jja ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 87 23:44:21 GMT From: danger!neil@rutgers.edu (neil) Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein kent@xanth.UUCP writes: > With his current status, he could probably sell just about > anything in the prime markets on name alone. He hasn't had a > clunker in a long time though. He's had several clunkers! Up to and including "The Cat that Walked Through Walls" He may have sold well, you and his many fans may have enjoyed them, but then I enjoy my 1970 no ps/pb Coronet too. Heinlein used to be a lot of fun, but now his work is practically worthless. We know, ad nauseam what his modus vivendi is, his *jokes* are boringly similar, his self indulgent style is stifling - I read his books (from the public library) hoping to he'll return to the one thing he used to be good at, telling a good yarn. Cat started out properly and went geometrically down hill. I'm curious as to how much time Heinlein spends writing a novel these days. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 23:11:44 GMT From: dolqci!bruce@rutgers.edu (Bruce Limber) Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein Under what pseudonyms did Heinlein write? Bruce Limber seismo!dolqci!bruce ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 87 23:37:30 GMT From: borealis!barry@rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein bruce@dolqci.UUCP (Bruce Limber) writes: >Under what pseudonyms did Heinlein write? The most famous Heinlein pseudonym is Anson MacDonald (Anson is RAH's middle name, MacDonald is his mother's maiden name). I believe it was mostly John Campbell's idea. Campbell wanted the Heinlein byline to be hooked exclusively to the "Future History" series. Also, he was publishing so much of RAH in ASTOUNDING in the early 1940s that more than one RAH story would end up appearing in the same issue. The traditional wisdom in publishing is that this is a Bad Idea, so the stories were published under different bylines. Heinlein gave up using pseudonyms when he returned to writing after WWII. In one of his advice to writers essays, he points out that a writer's name is one of his biggest assets; good stories written under your own name enhance your reputation as a writer. If no one knows you wrote 'em, all they get you is money. The only other pseudonym I know of RAH using is "Lyle Monroe", which he used on a single story, for reasons unknown to me. I don't recall which story it was, either, but I know it's been reprinted under RAH's own name, as have all the "Anson MacDonald" stories. If there are any unknown Heinlein works hiding out under an assumed name, it's a well-kept secret. I've never heard of 'em, and I'm pretty well informed about what RAH's written. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 16:21:59 GMT From: howard@cos.COM (Howard Berkowitz) Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein One Heinlein pseudonym, the only one appearing in the Library of Congress catalogm is Anson Mc (Mac?) Donald. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Apr 87 17:43:51 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Ayn Rand To: obnoxio@BRAHMS.BERKELEY.EDU > From: obnoxio@brahms > The only shake up that occurred in my thought patterns while > reading the book was I should have said, _Atlas Shrugged_ will shake up your thought patterns only if: 1) You don't already happen to agree with it all. 2) You are open-minded enough to actually THINK about the issues raised, rather than rejecting them unexamined on the grounds that they are too shocking, or that they conflict with one's religion, or whatever. I guess you fall in neither category. > when flying home on a plane, about 70% through the book, and I > spied the headlines on other people's newspapers that referred to > Mexico nationalizing its banks. I kept thinking "Oh no, the > People's Republic of Mexico has nationalized its banks." That's pretty wild! > The real shake up occurred years later when I learned that there > were people who took _Atlas Shrugged_ religiously. I couldn't > believe it. Neither can I. I have never met any such person. I have met people who, like me, believe that the book makes many valid points and that the world would be a better place if more people agree with Ayn Rand about more things. I have met people who disagree with the book for various well thought out reasons. I believe they are mistaken, but I respect them. I do NOT respect anyone whose only argument against the book (or any other book) is to incant "BOGUS! BOGUS!". > Her best work of fiction, of course, is _Introduction to > Objectivist Epistemology_. It doesn't have a plot, but it's > completely mind boggling, the way PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE is. It was intended as nonfiction as I think you know. That is not the best introduction to Objectivism, _Atlas Shrugged_ is. ItOE is intended for serious students of Objectivism, and I understand how it could easily confuse one such as you. > (Her short story "An Open Letter to Boris Spassky" [in > _Philosophy: Who Needs It?_], sometimes called "Rand to Gibber > Four", is a profound classic, not to be missed. You sure seem to have read a lot of her stuff for one who gets so little out of it. And just who, pray tell, calls it "Rand to Gibber Four"? > The tension created by her usage of a first person narrator who is > completely ignorant of the game of chess while carrying on an > imaginary dialectical exchange with the world champion in a > completely condescending manner makes for gut-rolling humor. The > suspension of disbelief is difficult at this point, however. > After all, no one in real life would actually say such moronic > things about chess as the narrator does.) An "open letter" is not a short story, it is an accepted form in its own right. Whether she actually mailed the letter to Spassky I don't know. What exactly was wrong with what was said about chess? I begin to understand the rationale behind your choice of username. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Apr 87 18:01:17 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Ayn Rand To: scdpyr!faulkner@RUTGERS.EDU > From: scdpyr!faulkner@rutgers.edu (Bill Faulkner) > ... is just part of what is called guerrilla ontology, and Shea > and Wilson use it endlessly. My understanding of guerilla ontology is that it consists mainly of getting people to doubt all sources of knowledge by having as many people as possible spread outrageous lies to as many people as possible. It also seems to consist of giving people mind altering drugs without their knowledge or consent. I disagree with Wilson and Shea about the desirability of this. > some of the objectivists really love Wilson and Shea and others > apparently like you are rather lukewarm towards them. Well, I read everything I can find by Wilson. I disagree with much of what he says, but I do find it thought provoking. The main things I disagree with are: 1) His mysticism, worship of assorted imaginary (?) gods, his belief in telepathy, precognition, levitation, etc. 2) His assertion that massive use of mind altering drugs is a reasonable and constructive thing to do, and a good way to become more attuned to reality, which he describes as "silly putty". 3) While calling himself a libertarian, he promotes immense government programs in space colonization and life extension. 4) He dislikes greed and selfishness. 5) While he agrees with Leary that nobody should be forced to use drugs against their will, his Guerilla Onology seems to involve drugging people against their will. 6) While claiming to be an advocate of a free market economy, he suggests a permanent universal rent strike, and denies that land can be owned or that rent is ever legitimate. > The rigid dogmatic logic > structure of many objectivists is not for everybody, Please explain what is rigid and dogmatic about it. > and it is especially repugnant to most avowed discordians (such > as Wilson and Shea). Do you know if they, or anyone, is REALLY a Discordian? Keith ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 13:38:08 GMT From: jean@hrcca.UUCP (Jean Airey) Subject: Patrick Troughton Dies (The following was sent to DW clubs belonging to the "APC Network" Any clubs or club members on this net, please feel free to copy) Date: March 31, 1987 It is with very great regret that I must inform you that Patrick Troughton died at 7:25 AM Saturday Morning, March 28 in Columbus Georgia. While the paramedics called to help did everything they could, he was officially pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital. The paramedics believed he had died instantly. He was appearing at Magnum Opus Con - 2. Pat was born March 25th, 1920 and was known and loved by DW fans as the actor who created the Second Doctor. He played the role from November 1966 - June 1969 and later returned to the program to do "The Three Doctors" with Jon Pertwee and Willian Hartnell; "The Five Doctors" with Richard Hurndall, Jon Pertwee and Peter Davison; and "The Two Doctors" with Colin Baker. One of the very best of British character actors, he was at first reluctant to take on the role of The Doctor,fearing that it might cause him to lose the anonymity that he valued highly. The Doctor he created remains in the hearts of many fans as the most vulnerable and humorous. After 1969 he continued his career with appearances in over 20 TV series including "The 6 Wives of Henry The VIII," "The Persuaders," "Jenny," "The Survivors," "Space 1999," "The Feathered Serpent," "The Sweeney," "Treasure Island," and "The Magic Box." Some of his major film appearances were in: "Scars of Dracula," "Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger," and "The Omen." Until 1983 he was noted for not giving interviews of "doing" conventions. However, in the spring of that year he was at the BBC Longleat Festival and gave an interview to the "Doctor Who Monthly" (#78). In November of 1983 he came over to America to the first of the Chicago "Monstercons," with some 20 other guests. In spite of that conventions' confusion, it would seem that he enjoyed the experience as he has returned several times since to do more Spirit Of Light conventions as well as several for the Doctor Who Fan Club Of America. He greatly seemed to enjoy the spirit of the fan conventions such as OMNICON. He was scheduled to do several "stops" with the BBC Festival Tour later this year. He always seemed to enjoy meeting fans and the word from some people at the convention is that although he had a very light "official" schedule on Friday, he spent most of his time walking around, talking to people, signing autographs and "having a good time." He will be very much missed by all of us. The family has asked that no flowers be sent. Cards may be sent c/o the "Doctor Who" Production Office, BBC TV, Union House, 65/69 Shepherds Bush Green, London, England W12 7RJ. If anyone wishes to make a donation in Pat's memory to a cause he cared about, it should be to Cancer Research. Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ Date: Thu 2 Apr 87 08:57:22-MST From: William G. Martin Subject: Patrick Troughton, 2nd Dr. Who, dies I was wondering if anyone on the list had been attending that convention or knew someone who had. I wonder if the convention closed when this happened, or what. As a side issue, has this sort of thing ever happened before at an SF or media con? (That is, a GOH or other important or well-known attendee dies while at the convention? I have a vague recollection of such a thing happening before, but no details come to mind.) Regards, Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 17:39:22 GMT From: hrcca!jean@rutgers.edu (Jean Airey) Subject: Re: Patrick Troughton, 2nd Dr. Who, dies From: William G. Martin > I was wondering if anyone on the list had been attending that > convention or knew someone who had. I wonder if the convention > closed when this happened While I wasn't there, some very good friends of mine were -- and were also working the con. The con did not close, and the con chairperson didn't even want to have the rest of the con told what had happened. He wanted to just keep saying all weekend that Pat "would not be able to do" his panels and have the rest of the guests fill in. He was -- ahem -- overruled & the con continued. The rest of the guests felt that Pat would not have wanted things stopped. The con chair was also furious that some people who knew what had happened called other people to let them know, including a call to John Nathan-Turner, BBC DW Producer (also a friend of Pat's) so that the BBNs (Beautiful British Newspapers) would not be the ones breaking the news to him. Very fortunately, one of the attendees was also a friend of the Troughton family & was able to call the *appropriate* people & tell them. But WMartin raises a good point for all cons (and one I've been thinking about since this happened) -- How much information *do* cons generally have on any GoH? Let's face it, even if you have the typical "emergency notification" information -- that's almost always a SO type of person (spouse, etc). But who among us would feel that in the case of a death you'd want to call *that* person and announce over the phone that their loved one had died? In that kind of situation -- where it's a natural death -- can you ask the local sheriff or whoever to break the news? Is that better than a phone call? What would you do? Jean Airey US Mail: 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 Apr 87 0919-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #139 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Apr 87 0919-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #139 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 139 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Boskone (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 Mar 87 18:09:44 GMT From: uwmacc!oyster@rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster) Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon) From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >[a list of things you've all seen at least 10 times now.] >The above was from a NESFA newsletter. Comments, anyone? (My only >comment at this time is .) It seems *very* reasonable to me. The only problem is that I have stayed away from cons because of exactly the type of stereotypical atmosphere they are trying to prevent. Now that a perfectly reasonable con comes along, the only credential I have for being invited is that I'm not a minor. Gak! You just can't win. Joel Plutchak uucp: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster ARPA: oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu BITNET: plutchak@wiscmacc ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 19:19:24 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon) paradis@encore.UUCP (Jim Paradis) writes: > One other question: My experience in the con scene is limited to > three Boskones. Should NESFA do what they intend to do, are there > any OTHER cons of like character to previous Boskones (Boskone > Classic, anyone? :-) )? As someone who has attended Boskones for the last 18 years, I can say that Boskone XXV as planned *is* "Boskone Classic"; Boskones XX through XXIV have been "New Boskone." Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 87 05:24:27 GMT From: mipos3!bverreau@rutgers.edu (Bernie Verreau ~) Subject: Re: Boskone (what do you want in a con) > A lot of people have been bemoaning the changes which are being > made to Boskone, going on about how "it won't be the *fun* con it > used to be". I admit to being one who made light of the list of Boskone "mandates". I also admit to being among the uninitiated when it comes to science fiction conventions. [NESFA regulars may now hit the "n" key.] After reading the list of "don'ts", however, I was struck by the distinctly unfriendly atti- tude directed toward outsiders and the feeling of regimentation conveyed by the rules. I am reminded of a scene from an old Star Trek episode, "Errand of Mercy". With apologies to all non-ST-lovers: [The Klingons have landed occupation forces on the planet Organia. Kirk and Spock (whose nose isn't blue even though he is a Bostonian in a different reality) stand before the Klingon commander.] Kor, Klingon military governor: You are now subjects of the Klingon Empire. You'll find that there are many rules and regulations; they will be posted. Violation of the smallest of them will be punished by death. Ayelborne of the Organian Council: We shall obey your regulations, commander. Kor: You disapprove, Barona? Barona (Kirk in disguise): You need my approval? Kor: I need your obedience, nothing more. Will I have it? Barona: [grimly] You seem to be in command. Kor: Yes, I am. > So I'm curious; what's your definition of a "fun con"? I suppose I am handicapped here in that I haven't attended sf cons, fun or otherwise. Still, I think of a convention as primarily a social gathering. We all read books and watch movies on our own. I should think that a convention gives people the opportunity to get together and talk about a favorite subject, party, and even let off a little steam, if so inclined. I don't know about you, but I like to make the most of my leisure time and money. I can't see spending either to be told exactly what I can and cannot do for the duration. I can sympathize with the point of view of those who actually run the conventions. It's mostly work and little fun for them. Being contractually responsible to and for a large group of conventioneers is one headache I'd rather avoid. I wonder if it might be possible to find others who would take charge of some of the security issues. One setting that seems conducive to a more relaxed gathering is the weekend cruise. (I do speak from personal experience here, having enjoyed a couple sailings with fellow amateur astronomers.) The cruise line takes full responsiblity for ship security, and their attitude is that the passengers are there to have a good time, so don't fence them in. The ships were large enough that individuals could seek out or avoid particular activities as they wished. I realize it's more expensive than renting hotel facilities, but if you really want to go after a more "mature" crowd, maybe that's an advantage. Has this been tried before? Bernie Verreau ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 87 18:11:45 GMT From: dykimber@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) Subject: Re: Boskone (what do you want in a con) tyg@lll-crg.UUCP (Tom Galloway) writes: >Given this fact of having to cut attendance this drastically (and >once again, this was not something that was done by the committee), >can you or anyone come up with a way of encouraging new people to >come that makes any sense when the committee has to somehow get >over 2000 people who were there last year not to show up next year? > >And given that they have to reduce attendance so drastically, can >anyone offer any reason why they shouldn't attempt to reduce it to >those people who are coming because it's a science fiction >convention and not because it's a party? With the solution they've proposed, they're also knocking off a lot of genuinely interested science fiction readers, and they're still letting in the local partiers who've gotten in at the door the last few years. Though I don't remember the exact rules they listed, I think that the only way I could ever get into a Boskone in my life would be to join a science fiction club, something I have little desire to do. Of course, if I became a writer, I wouldn't want to go. In any case, to the point of your posting, which I guess is the reason a lot of people are upset, is: is there a way to cut the con down to 2000 without a) letting in people who want a party, not a con, or b) screwing over people who are genuinely interested. I think a major part of this should be mandatory pre-registration. That way, anyone who would suffer on account b would have only themselves to blame. Limiting costumes/weapons sounds to me like something that is necessary, just to keep a hotel. And there's no reason the con can't be first-register first-get in. That way, it would be cut to 2000, and though it would still be hard to get in, it wouldn't be impossible, and certainly wouldn't be due to any snobbery/elitism. And if it is found necessary to give preference to certain groups of people, such as writers, people who have spent gobs of $, or whatever, then a quota system could be implemented, or the forms could be sent to them earlier, or something else. Well, maybe these aren't great ideas, but I thought I might as well throw them out. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Apr 87 15:35:54 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Boskone To: OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU I don't know what vandalism was done at Boskone 24, but I think the false fire alarm allegation may be mistaken. I was present in one room when the alarm went off for that room. I immediately looked at the alarm and saw that it had not been pulled. What I did see was that many people in the room were smoking, and that smoke had visibly accumulated on the ceiling, which was about 20 feet up. I think their smoke alarms were too sensitive. I am fairly allergic to smoke, but I wasn't ususally bothered by smoking in the large conference rooms at the con. As for reducing membership, the obvious and non-discriminatory solution is to auction off the 2000 or however many memberships. Perhaps let everyone pay what they feel a membership is worth, and a month or two before the con, refund all but the top 2000 bids (ties to be decided by postmark date). Perhaps also set up an area for "scalpers" so that people can get memberships at the door. I noticed that people from out of town were not listed on the automatically-invited list, which is a shame because someone who is willing to spend $100+ for transportation is certainly serious about Boskone, and is probably willing to pay a higher membership fee, which would discourage randoms and non-serious attendees. It would also give NESFA cash with which to hire people to help with the con. I for one am tired of being made to feel guilty for not offering to help out. But I only go to two cons a year, and spend about $300 per con, so I don't want to spend my time there slicing vegetables in the con suite or patrolling the stairwells for people without badges. Keith P.S. How about inviting only non-smokers :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Apr 87 01:22:31 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Boskone Perhaps NESFA should get together with many other SF organizations also near the sea, and purchase a large cruise ship. On Boskone weekend it would be anchored in Boston Harbor, and Boskone would be held on board. Other weekends it would be anchored in other cities, and one con or another could be held on board every weekend. On weekdays, perhaps it could be leased out for mundane conventions and conferences, or used as a hotel or even as a cruise ship. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 87 22:34:40 GMT From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Re: Boskone KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU writes: >I don't know what vandalism was done at Boskone 24, but I think the >false fire alarm allegation may be mistaken. I was present in one >room when the alarm went off for that room. I was also in a room where the smoke alarm went off. The main floor alarm did not go off. I seem to remember being told that three separate alarms would have to go off on a floor before the fire department was notified. If not this way, fire alarms must be pulled for the fire department to show. >As for reducing membership, the obvious and non-discriminatory >solution is to auction off the 2000 or however many memberships. >Perhaps let everyone pay what they feel a membership is worth, and >a month or two before the con, refund all but the top 2000 bids >(ties to be decided by postmark date). Perhaps also set up an area >for "scalpers" so that people can get memberships at the door. Wrong-o! It discriminates against people who have no spare money, like myself. Aside from scalping being illegal, I would think that the people who could afford the scalped tickets would have bid higher originally, since they could afford the price of the scalped tickets, which would be higher? Why turn the convention into a money-grubbing event? I always thought the point of a con was to get together to share the joys of science fiction. When did this change? Even if we implemented your bidding scheme, what's to stop 2000 Joe "partyanimal" Richkids from getting his parents to outbid 2000 Sally "serious-sf" Congoers? Something tells me that this is going to turn into another soapbox from which to spout Libertarian ideals. I don't want to hear any...If I did, I'd read talk.politics. Please don't start. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Apr 87 19:32:10 EST From: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Stuff on Boskone and Noreascon III Hi, I am President of the U. Mass Science Fiction Society, and I would like to ask a few questions that came up as I read the issue of Instant Message that we receive as a courtesy from NESFA. I want to know if the following 2 suggestions will be implemented: 1) That memberships will be made non-transferrable. If this is the case, the con publicity had better make this clear. If you do not do so soon, someone is going to have some fun with NESFA in court. I personally feel that this is a just plain scummy thing to do. I may not be in New England next year, but I would like to have the chance to buy a membership and then sell it if I cannot make it to Boskone. 2) That the people who have already bought memberships at $18.00 may have their money refunded because with the smaller attendance, this would be an undue hardship on the convention budgets. This can be construed as fraud. On Noreascon III: one of my housemates' father is a a major contractor for the remodeling of the HYNES. The word from that angle is: it is almost an impossibility that the Hynes auditorium would be ready for Noreascon III. They are behind schedule and over budget (the reality of public works in Massachusetts). Good luck NESFA, Matthew Saroff ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 5 Apr 1987 18:17:35-PDT From: djpl%hulk.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (The Wizard) Subject: My previous Boskone suggestions I gave a few suggestions on how to keep Boskone as good as it is. One person said I had neglected to comment on how, even though NESFA could farm out some of the activities, they could keep the crowd control in control. Simply put, if an organization gets 'licensed', they also have to volunteer a number of people to help with the crowds. That would be part of 'the price' of being 'sanctioned'. Of course, NESFA has already spoken on this matter. I'm waiting for their newsletter so I can apply for my refund. dj ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 16:05:41 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: My previous Boskone suggestions djpl%hulk.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes: >I gave a few suggestions on how to keep Boskone as good as it is. >One person said I had neglected to comment on how, even though >NESFA could farm out some of the activities, they could keep the >crowd control in control. > >Simply put, if an organization gets 'licensed', they also have to >volunteer a number of people to help with the crowds. That would >be part of 'the price' of being 'sanctioned'. But that has nothing to do with the problem NESFA is facing! No hotel in Boston will accept Boskones at the size of last year's con, regardless of the number of volunteers provided. Once again, folks: It was *not* NESFA's idea to cut Boskone membership by 60%! It was _forced_on_them_! Given that, they are trying to allocate a limited resource -- memberships -- in what they see as the fairest way possible. We can argue about whether a fairer way could be found; that all depends on what you mean by "fair". NESFA is trying to ensure that the people who get memberships are the sort of people NESFA members want to be at a con with: reasonably serious readers of sf who are somewhat involved in fandom already (that bit about "member of a known sf club") and who are statistically unlikely to be heavy partiers. This is their right as the people holding the con. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 8 Apr 87 0831-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #140 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Apr 87 0831-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #140 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 8 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 140 Today's Topics: Administrivia - SF-LOVERS and the Network, Books - Eddings & Lindsay & McCaffrey (5 msgs) & Rosenberg (2 msgs) & Story Request Answer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Apr 87 08:05:32 EDT From: Saul Subject: SF-LOVERS and the network It seems that yesterday, April 7, we installed the new host list from SRI-NIC who maintain the network host tables. They had vowed to remove from their list all names for hosts that were "unqualified", which basically means any host name that didn't conform to the new naming conventions. Well they did what they claimed and SF-LOVERS managed to suffer. Many sites (almost half of the list) were rejected by the mailer as invalid hostnames. I have managed to repair my distribution list (with some help from our local host table maintainer) but there are some sites that I still don't have correct addresses for. Also, many of you out there now reading this will have missed several issues that went through the queue before the distribution list was fixed. If you are missing any issues please use the anonymous function of FTP to retrieve them from PS:SF-LOVERS.TXT@RED.RUTGERS.EDU. I will not remail any of these issues to people so please don't ask. This however should serve as a reminder to people that if you know your network address has changed (or will change in the near future) to send a note to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RED.RUTGERS.EDU to have me change my distribution list. If people had informed me of their hostname change before the new host table came out, this problem would have been avoided. Also, mail forwarding from an old address to your new location is *a very bad idea* as the forwarding can get broken without warning. Please be sure that I always have your *current* address in my list. It helps me and it helps you get the digest faster and more reliably. Saul ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 87 20:34:28 GMT From: jhunix!ins_adsk@rutgers.edu (David S Kerven) Subject: David Eddings' latest To anyone out there who is a David Eddings' fan. His next book is out in hard cover. It's the first book in another series call the Mallorean. The title of the book is Guardian of the West. It takes place several years after the end of the Belgariad. David S. Kerven USENET: allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_adsk seismo!umcp-cs!jhunix!ins_adsk ARPAnet:ins_adsk%jhunix.BITNET@wiscvm.ARPA BITNET: ins_adsk@jhunix CSNET: ins_adsk@jhunix.CSNET ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 87 13:38:21 GMT From: putnam@thuban.steinmetz (putnam) Subject: Re: A Voyage To Arcturus Someone has already replied about "Arcturus", but the name Lindsay kept bothering me, I knew I had something else by him that had not already been mentioned so I went over and poked around in my bookshelves for a while (not a long while, but long enough - I really should arrange things more rationally) till I found it. A single volume containing "The Violet Apple" and "The Witch" by David Lindsay. Chicago Press, 1976. I read "The Violet Apple", and that was it, I don't have any particular inclination to read anything else by him. Perhaps I should have paid more attention to the introduction : "... Lindsay [is] also a genuinely incompetent writer..." "... [he] still produce[s] books that are worth reading..." "... his books are genuinely bad, stylisticly speaking..." "... a twentieth century classic... "... he wrote all his life with and embarrassing clumsiness that most would-be writers outgrow at seventeen." "... a truly original genius..." "... an atrocious writer." Maybe I'll try "Arcturus" someday after all. jeff putnam UUCP: steinmetz!putnam ARPA: putnam@ge-crd.com ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 00:14:41 GMT From: xanth!kent@rutgers.edu (Kent Paul Dolan) Subject: Re: Pern, etc. While I'm not going to say I believe Ms. McCaffrey's celestial mechanics either, the following, probably specious argument should help the cooperating participant suspend disbelief long enough to enjoy a truly well written series. Since the red star has a very unusual orbit, it is evidently a recent addition to the Pern system. (After a few million years, planets' orbits tend to mellow out a bit, and fall in line with the crowd, so those who can do the math claim.) Guess, then, that the red star's orbit is a narrow ellipse, at a shallow angle to the orbit of Pern (say 20 degrees), and cuts inside the orbit of Pern a bit, at the inner end, and swings far outside the orbit of Pern at the outer end, creating the long cycle between passes. Suppose that the year of the red star is not a multiple of the year of Pern, so that when the red star is at the inner end of its orbit, sometimes Pern is nearby, other times not. Thus you get the long interval between passes that makes the dragon riders go forward between times. Now, guess that the red star evolved life in orbit around another star in a dense cluster, but was ripped free and made a wanderer by the near passage of another star, and so recently joined the Pern system. The threads rode out the (very long) trip in spore form, and when a sun's heat warmed the planet, found only the remains of most other life to live upon. Moreover, the original star of the red star was a red star (is that confusing enough?); i.e., the red "star" was the child of a long lived red dwarf star. Since it received relatively low heat, it retained an unusually deep atmosphere. While the red star is in its outer orbit (most of the time), the heat received from Pern's sun is fairly meager. But, just about the time the red star cuts inside Pern's orbit, the sun's heat causes massive storms, stirring up the thread spore into the upper atmosphere. Moreover, the atmosphere of the red star heats, and expands, and _lots_ of it (in tons, not percent!) is torn free by the solar wind, and streams away from the red star, like the tail of a comet. The spores are tough, the coma is diffuse, and, when Pern intersects the tail, it also intersects the entrained spores, and thread falls. If you don't look at that too hard, it gives a suitable reality to a pass; the spore would be accelerated to a significant submultiple of light speed, electrically charged, would slow and spiral down through Pern's magnetic field and "van Allen" belts, and so make the crossing in relatively little time. Comments? (No flames, please; they are hard on the thread) ;-) Kent Paul Dolan UUCP: kent@xanth.UUCP seismo!decuac!edison!xanth!kent CSNET: kent@odu.csnet ARPA: kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu Voice: (804) 587-7760 USnail:P.O. Box 1559, Norfolk, Va 23501-1559 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 21:40:34 GMT From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: Pern, etc. kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >While the red star is in its outer orbit (most of the time), the >heat received from Pern's sun is fairly meager. But, just about >the time the red star cuts inside Pern's orbit, the sun's heat >causes massive storms, stirring up the thread spore into the upper >atmosphere. Moreover, the atmosphere of the red star heats, and >expands, and _lots_ of it (in tons, not percent!) is torn free by >the solar wind, and streams away from the red star, like the tail >of a comet. The spores are tough, the coma is diffuse, and, when >Pern intersects the tail, it also intersects the entrained spores, >and thread falls. Let's make a list of things in Earth's atmosphere that are relatively light (lighter than spores), and should be showing up on, say, Venus (in fact, should be streaming there in a trail whenever we got close enough). Anyhoo... here's what SHOULD be on the list... 1. Air. 2. Dust. Lots of it. 3. Water Vapor. 4. Orbital Satellites. 5. Birds. 6. Small Children. Air is certainly less dense than the threads would be, even in spore form. And since the various gasses that form "air" are less massive than spores or threads, they have less mutual attraction with the Earth, as if that made a whole lot of difference. Dust is slightly more massive and somewhat more dense, if more mass was the necessary condition. And water vapor, if you need to have something REALLY heavy to do the trick. (BTW - there are high winds in the middle atmosphere - the jet stream. I don't think there are many winds in the upper atmosphere because of the lack of significan air pressure). Orbital Satellites - now these are already up there, so they should just swing away and head straight for Venus. Birds. I figure these are about as massive as threads. Probably wouldn't make the trip as well. Small Children. These would probably require a catapult to get them high enough. THE POINT is, that I think the gravitational attraction of a planet, even a small one, would be enough to keep any but the absolute smallest bit of matter from getting away, unless it was helped somewhat by a little more than strong winds. And the threads came across as threads, not spores - unless they somehow grew to threads while lunching on the water vapor whilst spiralling down to Pern. Sounds unlikely, since they were described as dry, burning things, which were incinerated easily. Why not just read the books as if they were fantasy? Bruce Holloway {seismo,hplabs,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 87 22:10:01 GMT From: umich!jtr485@rutgers.edu (Johnathan Tainter) Subject: Re: Pern, etc. < why the etc.? From: W.P.Griffin >dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque): >>You didn't even mention other unscientific aspects of Pern. The >>celestial mechanics (Pern & Red Star) were absolutely ridiculous. >I don't know enough about celestial mechanics to be certain... but >I would not consider it impossible for this to occur. The Red Star >never did show a disk, after all; therefore, it was farther away >from Pern than Luna is from Earth, but probably not as far as Mars >is.. Who says it never showed a disk? Just because it was called a star does not mean it manifested as a point. Historically, although many people have forgotten this, any object "up there" was called a star. Given a planet of people who have forgotten much of their heritage and knowledge of space making no distiction between celestial bodies would not surprise me. Remember they managed to use a fairly weak telescope to get surface views of the thing. We also have no idea how big the Red Star is, so using disk size to judge displacement would be silly. > Even the moon is (by Earthly standards) an enormous distance to > travel. Using the fastest means of travel known to man, it took > *days*. get to Mars would take *months*. To me, the idea that a > living creature could just reach across that multi-million mile > distance is plainly ridiculous. The biggest problem is not the distance to be travelled, nor the time spent in space to do so, but getting free of your originating gravity well. If you are not going to complain about the dragons going between then you certainly cannot complain about the thread. If you have _a_ creature which bridges interplanetary distances by going between (Canth, the owner of F'nor, did just that) why couldn't the thread be using the same form of transport? There are limits on going between (at least temporal, I would assume spatial also) which would account for a reasonable proximity necessary to bridge, thus only during close passes. Note also, that once you allow dragons (overgrown firelizards, really) to travel by going between it is silly to argue about flying. What is the constraint on flying? That you be capable of overcoming weight and momentum. But if you can move an object freely out of one gravitational frame and into another then you already have the ability to ignore the object's mass which frees you from weight and momentum. Of course, all of this hinges on your acceptance of going between. I refuse to put limits on things I know no one knows anything about. j.a.tainter ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 87 03:14:40 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Lengths of turns (was and naming children on Pern) becky@sq.UUCP writes: >COMBS@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU writes: >>As far as I can tell, (I haven't re-read the books in a couple of >>years), turns on Pern seem roughly the same length as Terran >>years. Remember, at the beginning of the 1st book F'lar was >>probably in his early 20's, and it seems later that he's somewhere >>in his 40's - not "aged" yet, but certainly not as young as he >>used to be. > >I read in the FORT FACT PACK, published by Fort Weyr (a Pern club), >that Pern years were LONGER than Earth years. Has no one on this net ever met a vigorous 45-year-old????? It all seems quite consistent to me. Especially considering that much of aging is in the mind (meaning that if a person thinks s/he's old, s/he will act old, but a person who thinks young will keep active, which will help keep the body fit and prevent it from growing weak as quickly as it might). As far as length of Pern years -- If the ``Pern years longer than Earth years'' comes from the fact that Lords Holders can come into their own at an age below 21, I urge reconsideration. The 18/21/35/what-have-you lower limits on age are a product of ``modern'' civilization. Less sophisticated civilizations tend to do things differently, including what we consider ``adult'' things hapopening when a person is 16-18 rather than 21. (There are arguments for and against both, but I suspect a basis of qualification would be better than one of age. On the other hand, we then get into `quis custodiet ipsos custodes'... [And now, we return to your regularly scheduled SF-Lovers :-)]) Who cares, anyway? If Earth people aren't going to have any contact with the Pernese, why does it matter how the lengths of years compare? Pern is consistent with itself; that's all I ask. Brandon ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 87 16:13:38 GMT From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu Subject: Re: Pern, etc. < why the etc.? jtr485@umich.UUCP (Johnathan Tainter) writes: >If you have _a_ creature which bridges interplanetary distances by >going between (Canth, the owner of F'nor, did just that) I was always under the impression (Sorry) that F'nor and Canth were partners. cs2633ba@izar!charon!unmvax ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 21:17:42 GMT From: drutx!slb@rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Rosenberg David Liebreich writes: >Does anyone know if there will be a fourth book in Joel Rosenberg's >series _Guardians_of_the_Flame_, and if so, when? According to a friend, who works in a bookstore: Yes! The next book is to be called "The Heir Apparent", and will be out the end of April. I've been waiting for this for sooooo long... Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 87 02:27:04 GMT From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: Rosenberg If I recall correctly, Joel said at Boskone that he'll have two other books coming out this year after Heir Apparent; one non-Guardians book and a fifth Guardians book (the two books are definite, but my memory's a bit fuzzy on just when they'll be out). If you get a chance to see him at a con, be sure to do so; he's both funny and intelligent. tyg ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 23:33:26 GMT From: bnrmtv!perkins@rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins) Subject: Re: OH the embarrassment mberkman@cc5.bbn.com writes: > If that subject line starts you laughing, then you probably > remember the story I am searching for. The story was by Joe Haldeman. It's anthologized in "Dealing in Futures". Can't think of the title, but I could look it up when I get home. Henry Perkins {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 9 Apr 87 0827-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #141 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Apr 87 0827-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #141 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 9 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 141 Today's Topics: Books - Atwood (2 msgs) & Cherryh (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Apr 87 21:05:16 GMT From: osupyr!lum@rutgers.edu (Lum Johnson) Subject: Re: The Handmaid's Tale hwarkentyne@watdragon.UUCP (Kenneth Warkentyne) writes: >Dani Zweig writes: >> .. Comparisons [to] 1984 are inevitable, and justified. It seems >>clear that many of the parallels are deliberate. But this book is >>less fantastic than 1984, more believable, more banal. > > .. While the Handmaid's Tale is not as "fantastic" as 1984, banal >is hardly a word to describe it. Throughout the novel, we are >aware of the climate of fear that the new Republic of Gilead has >created and how people stifle their thoughts and emotions to go >along with the state approved line. The experiences of Offred in >her duties as a handmaid are far from banal. I have not yet read this book, but from the discussion to date, I would guess that a more apt comparison would be to Evgeny Zamyatin's _We_, a cautionary tale about what the Soviet union could end up becoming if the revolution were to be (as it has been) subverted. _HT_ sounds very much to be a cautionary about how revolutions go awry. Revolution is always quite dangerous, and while this may be especially obvious in failure, it may be even more true in success. Lum Johnson lum[%osu-20]@ohio-state.arpa lum@{osu-eddie|osupyr}.uucp ..!cbosgd!osu-eddie[!osupyr]!lum ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 02:39:28 GMT From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu Subject: THE HANDMAID'S TALE by Margaret Atwood THE HANDMAID'S TALE by Margaret Atwood Fawcett Crest, 1986 (1985c) A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Copyright 1987 Evelyn C. Leeper They say that politics make strange bedfellows, and they point to the feminists and the fundamentalists marching side-by-side to "take back the night" and punish all those horrible, evil pornographers. Well, Margaret Atwood has brought new meaning to that cliche of bedfellows. In a world where the fertility rate has been drastically reduced because of pollution and who knows what other evils, the Gileadean solution is that of Rachel and her handmaid Bilhah. And this is made palatable by couching it as the solution that both the anti-pornography ("AP") fundamentalists and the AP feminists have been promoting for years. The AP fundamentalists get the strict morality, the elimination of divorce, the return of woman to her role as keeper of the home. The AP feminists get the banning of pornography, the death penalty for rape, and the elimination of violence against women. So why do I have the feeling that none of those promoting these goals today would actually want the reality Atwood gives us? Actually one of the characters makes the point best. There are two kinds of freedom, she says, freedom to and freedom from. Both the AP feminists and the AP fundamentalists have been emphasizing the freedom from: freedom from fear, freedom from violence, freedom from anything that offends, etc. (Sounds a bit like Franklin Roosevelt, doesn't it? But I digress.) They have forgotten that freedom from and freedom to have to balance out: an increase in one is only achieved by a decrease in the other. Or, as Henry Drummond says in INHERIT THE WIND, "Yes, you can learn to fly. But the birds will lose their wonder, and the clouds will smell of gasoline." In the case of THE HANDMAID'S TALE, the freedom from fear et al has been achieved by giving up the freedom to live as one chooses, to work in a profession, to have financial independence, to have an identity of one's own. The handmaids are "Ofglen" or "Offred"--which Atwood mislabels as patronymics--having given up their own names when they were recruited. The AP fundamentalists and the AP feminists have been so busy joining forces on what they want everyone to have freedom from that they have overlooked the fact that they disagree on what people should have freedom to. If they achieve their goals they may discover that the world they have made is not to their liking after all. The other interesting point about the society that Atwood portrays is that it is very similar to another science fictional society--that of John Norman's "Gor" series. Bizarre though this sounds, let's examine the two. Atwood describes women's roles as being one of five types: Marthas, Handmaidens, Wives, Aunts, or Colonists. The Marthas do the cooking and cleaning; they are the equivalent of Norman's state slaves. Both dress in drab colors and do the menial work. The Handmaidens provide procreation (and sex); they are the equivalent of Norman's pleasure slaves. Both dress in red. The Wives are the equivalent of Norman's free companions--honored and respected, living their lives on a pedestal. The Aunts are the equivalent of the slaves who train the pleasure slaves (I don't recall if there is a specific term for them). The Colonists have no direct parallel, though a disobedient slave on Gor does end up doing some sort of unpleasant/dangerous work. While it's true that these roles are not unpredictable, the parallels between Gilead and Gor are thought-provoking, to say the least. Add to this that Atwood, as part of the main character's description of her indoctrination, includes graphic descriptions of violent sex, and one wonders if those who would ban Norman's books would do the same to THE HANDMAID'S TALE. Consider the following excerpt from a proposed anti-pornography ordinance: "Pornography is the sexually explicit subordination of women, graphically depicted, whether in pictures or in words, that also includes one or more of the following: ... women are presented dehumanized as sexual objects, things or commodities...." (Note that the portrayal does not have to be favorable.) My reading of this is that THE HANDMAID'S TALE would be considered pornographic by this definition. All this indicates, of course, is that this definition is crap. I haven't said much about the book itself. That's because the plot itself is not that original, or enthralling, or amazing. It's what the book makes you think about that counts. Atwood makes you think about what can lead to this society and, conversely, what the actions and attitudes of today can lead to. It doesn't bear multiple readings the way a novel like LAST AND FIRST MEN does. It's not a masterpiece of literary style. But the thoughts it generates will stay with you long after the details of the book itself have been forgotten. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 87 18:43:50 CST From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp) Subject: C.J. Cherryh (long) C.J. Cherryh has indicated in interviews and articles that her "future history", set partly in the Union-Alliance universe of DOWNBELOW STATION is something that she has planned in great detail. Many of her science fiction novels are set in this future, which is so intricately detailed "in hundreds of spiral notebooks" that she knows what ships arrived at which planets or stations when, what cargo they were carrying and who was on them. I am reminded of Agatha Christie's method of keeping track of the characters in her mysteries by plotting their movements on the blackboards that covered three walls of her workroom. I do not have a complete chronology, though there is a partial timeline line published in ANGEL WITH A SWORD. I haven't read WAVE WITHOUT A SHORE or VOYAGER IN NIGHT, so I do not know where or if they fit into Cherryh's timeline. I haven't read all of Cherryh's books nor am I privy to any privileged information, save what can be gleaned from the books themselves, so the following placement and discussion is simply what I have learned. I am always ready to learn more, especially about Ms. Cherryh's work. HESTIA occurs during Sol's expansion, after the CUCKOO'S EGG discovery of Pell but before the discovery of jump DOWNBELOW STATION occurs during the Union-Sol hostilities, MECHANTER'S LUCK before the founding of the Alliance by Signy Mallory and Konstantin 40,000 IN GEHENNA begins during Union's experiments with lab-born humans (azi) and ends after the Union and Alliance have reached "detente" THE PRIDE OF CHANUR occurs simultaneously with the events of CHANUR'S VENTURE 40,000 IN GEHENNA, according to the Author's THE KIF STRIKE BACK Note at the end of THE KIF STRIKE BACK, but CHANUR'S HOMECOMING whether near the beginning or the end is not clear THE FADED SUN: KESRITH occurs at the end of Alliance-Sharrh THE FADED SUN: SHON'JIR conflict THE FADED SUN: KUTATH PORT ETERNITY an unlinked novel occurring in Unionside space SERPENT'S REACH occurs in Unionside space after after the Union and Alliance have reached "detente" and before the Alliance-Hanan conflicts BROTHERS OF EARTH occurs during the Alliance-Hanan conflict, possibly near the end of the thousand-year war ANGEL WITH A SWORD occurs during the thousand-year Alliance- Hanan conflict, on a planet which was settled and abandoned by Union and ceded to the Sharrh during the Alliance-Sharrh wars SUNFALL occurs near the end of the future history CUCKOO'S EGG takes place early in the expansion. The human crew of the ship, possibly early explorers, had little or no experience in meeting alien species, yet retaliated only in self- defense. The impassable distances of light space play an important role in the book, indicating that jump was not yet in use by humans. It is conceivable that the human ship was lost, as there is no mention of Duun's race in novels taking place later in Cherryh's timeline. HESTIA was settled early in Sol's expansion, apparently after the discovery of indigenous life on Pell, as the the discovery of Hestian natives did not appear to be momentous. Again, the vast distances of light space play an important role in the book, indicating that jump was not yet in use by humans. At the time of DOWNBELOW STATION and MERCHANTER'S LUCK, rebel merchanter's had expanded further from Earth, founding unauthorized stations and colonies. The Earth Company, withdrawing from the Beyond, alienated and abandoned her stations and colonies and turned her once proud exploration forces into a police force to keep the colonies and stations in line. Some of the colonies rebelled and organized, became the Union, and expanded further into the Beyond, using humans (azi) grown in labs and nurtured from birth in vast government nurseries to force population growth. A society evolved "whose way of life was stars, infinities, unlimited growth, and time which looked to forever. Earth did not understand them." When hostilities finally broke out, it was a bitter confrontation between two alien societies who had little or no understanding for one another. 40,000 IN GEHENNA begins in Unionside space. The Gehennan colony, an experimental settlement composed of Union military, Union citizens and the "non-citizen" lab-bred azi was purposely abandoned by Unionside. The azi developed a symbiotic relationship with the intelligent indigenous species, the calaban. Generations later, Gehenna was recontacted by the Alliance. The Gehennan policy, which set guidelines for human settlement on inhabited planets, resulted from this. The Chanur series takes place in Compact Space, which lies opposite Sol from Alliance and Union space, simultaneously with the events in occurring, I believe, near the end of 40,000 IN GEHENNA. Though Alliance and Union are cooperative, somewhat like current superpowers, there is still enough conflict for Tully to warn Pyanfar against possible human treachery. (I believe Tully is Alliance, based on what is known about the the psychological conditioning of azi and Unionside citizens.) The FADED SUN trilogy takes place after the Alliance-Sharrh wars. Union figures only slightly in this war as the area of conflict lay on the Alliance border away from Unionside. In SERPENT'S REACH, merchanter families from Unionside established a symbiotic relationship with an insect-like society, the majat, which refused to allow further human colonization in Hydra space. Lab-bred humans, alpha and beta azi, were used by the families to expand while excluding Unionside and Alliance. When society broke down, hostilities kept the Union and Alliance from moving in and allowed time to rebuild the majat hives and human society. BROTHERS OF EARTH takes place on a nearly forgotten Hanan colony during the thousand-year Alliance-Hanan conflict when a disillusioned Hanan officer and an Alliance officer become stranded. MEROVINGAN NIGHTS: ANGEL WITH A SWORD is a shared-world and may not conform to Cherryh's timeline as more writers contribute to the series. The first novel contains an extensive appendix which details Merovingan's history. Familiarity with Cherryh's universe may add some understanding of the Merovingan mythos and culture. On the timeline, ANGEL WITH A SWORD occurs during the thousand-year Alliance-Hanan conflict, on a planet which was settled and abandoned by Union and ceded to the Sharrh during the Alliance-Sharrh wars. SUNFALL occurs near the end of the future history on the third planet of the star Sol. One thing that binds Cherryh's novels together is her use of "jump" as the transport between stars. Most of the star-faring races in Cherryh's books use jump and either developed it independently or received it from a more advanced race. Again, most of the star-faring races using jump experience some disorientation throughout it. Humans face extreme psychological distress, even madness, when faced with jump without drugs to temper the process. It has been noted that the more alien (to humans) the race, the less distress is experienced. Note the difference in reaction between the Hani and the Kif. The Mri of the FADED SUN trilogy do not experience this disorientation and teach Sten Duncan to go through jump. This indicates to me that human reaction to jump is a matter of perception and philosophy, rather than biology. In PORT ETERNITY, though the crew are lab- born and considered somewhat less that human, they experience difficulty with jump until they alter their perception of reality and learn to cope with the disorientation of jump, after the ship becomes lost within a jump. The two non-lab-bred humans also learn to alter their perceptions to cope with jump. I would like to continue this posting later and talk about Cherryh's alien societies, perceptions, and philosophies. I would also like to talk about her archtypical characters, typified by Melein, Morgaine and Pyanfar, by Niun, Vanye, and Pyanfar's husband, and by Sten Duncan, Vanye's cousin, and Tully. Thank you. Interested and interesting responses anticipated with pleasure. Flames and nit-picking take up disk space. Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 15:53:33 GMT From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: C.J. Cherryh (long) >(I believe Tully is Alliance, based on what is known about the >psychological conditioning of azi and Unionside citizens.) I thought it was clear that Tully was Terran, looking for allies against Union and Alliance, in or just after the war featured in Downbelow Station. Frank Adams ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Ashton-Tate 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 9 Apr 87 0845-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #142 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Apr 87 0845-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #142 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 9 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 142 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Apr 87 12:20:48 GMT From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) Subject: Re: Boskone XXV Info from INSTANT MESSAGE trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.) writes: >ecl@mtgzy.UUCP writes some material which makes me quite unhappy. >It addresses some things which I have had no control over, and I am >being penalized through no fault of my own. I happen to be one of >the unfortunate people who do not meet the standards of what they >think is deserving of admittance to Boskone. You are the one reading in this "deserving" stuff. With normal growth, the attendance at the 1988 Boskone would be 4,500. It has to be cut to more like 1,500. There are already something like 4 or 5 hundred members counting the Boskone life members and those who joined at the 1987 Boskone. This situation is going to cause a lot of unhappy people, no matter what. >>People Who Have Purchased Art at Any of the Last 3 Boskones >[will be admitted] >... I guess being rich is the real requirement here. ... I suggest you think about what your opinion of this would be if you were an artist. Also consider that much less high quality art to be enjoyed by all members of Boskone who bother to go to the art show will be brought if it can't be sold. >>7) No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or guardian. >>..We will make exceptions for: members of known SF clubs, gophers. >Why wasn't this ever instituted? I don't think I would have >initiated a convention *without* this to begin with! Stupid move >on NESFA's part. I happen to think this is a particularly obnoxious rule. What is magic about 18? Don't you think people should be judged as individuals? This is the first age based rule related to Boskone that I can remember. For example, as far as I know, there has never been a "children's" rate for Boskone. You are either a member or not. True, some programming is planned for particular age groups, such as baby-sitting and a track of young fan programming but an effort is made to avoid arbitrary age rules. >>8) We will offer refunds to all those who have already purchased a >>membership. >Read as: Anyone who doesn't like it, can leave right now. We won't >take no guff. I think most people involved in runing Boskone think of themselves as innocent people who have been screwed just as much as you do. Why should they take any guff? Constructive suggestions would be welcome, however. And some criticism is deserved, for the decision to go to nameless badges and not beefing up security, for example. >>9)Badge-checking will be carried out in all function areas ... >What gets me is that this all seems like logical things to do. Why >wasn't it done in the past? I guess it takes a real crisis to make >Boskone officials think. ... Actually, with most hotels, it's probably impossible to check badges at *all* function areas because there are a lot of little rooms that open off of inherently public corridors. However, you can try for the bigger areas. There has always been some badge checking. Boskone 87 had the same number of guards as Boskone 86 but poorer security organization and supervision. "Boskone officials" think about these things quite a bit but there was no reason to anticipate the problems that occured. "Boskone officials" also worry about appearing to be fascist until its clear that the alternative is worse. >Aside from that, just what is "Serious Science Fiction" anyway? ... >... This smacks of Sci-Fi fundamentalism to me, folks. I understand things to refer to the "serious sf *fan*" not "serious *science fiction*" although I don't pretend to be able to define either very well. >Has anyone thought to ask the membership of NESFA? ... I realize >that the convention is run by a select bunch of people, and what >they can handle is what they can handle. ... All this was debated and approved at an open NESFA business meeting. (I think its been at least ten years since there was a closed NESFA business meeting.) Although there is a large carry over of people working on different areas, Boskone is run by a Chairman, or co-Chairmen who are appointed some months before the previous Boskone and ratified by a 2/3 vote of the club. The co-chairs of the 1988 Boskone are Jim and Laurie Mann. They wrote up these rules, partly based on material appearing in APA:NESFA and their discussions with others, and they got them through the club. No changes of this magnitude could happen without club approval. >I understand that there was a lot of property damage done to the >hotel. Actually, it was pretty minor damage but of such a nature that it effected the fire alarm system so that it was very hard to reset in the areas of the vandalism and the fire department was serious considering ordering the evacuation of some floors withing the hotel. Donald E. Eastlake, III +1 617-492-8860 ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 17:45:57 GMT From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) Subject: Re: Boskone (what do you want in a con) dykimber@phoenix.UUCP (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) writes: >tyg@lll-crg.UUCP (Tom Galloway) writes: >>And given that they have to reduce attendance so drastically, can >>anyone offer any reason why they shouldn't attempt to reduce it to >>those people who are coming because it's a science fiction >>convention and not because it's a party? > >With the solution they've proposed, they're also knocking off a lot >of genuinely interested science fiction readers, and they're still >letting in the local partiers who've gotten in at the door the last >few years. The reduction has to be so drastic that a lot of genuinely interested science fiction readers who want to come to Boskone will be unable to do so no matter what. I think the rules will discourage people who are just partiers and I don't know of any magic way to completely exclude them with the information available. >Though I don't remember the exact rules they listed, I think that >the only way I could ever get into a Boskone in my life would be to >join a You are assuming that these rules, adopted just for 1988, will be in force for the rest of your life. I don't think that is very likely. >science fiction club, something I have little desire to do. Of >course, if I became a writer, I wouldn't want to go. Why is it that you think you would not want to go if you were a writer? Many do along with publsihers, agents, etc., and a few of these do nothing much during Boskone but engage in business with other professionals. > In any case, to the point of your posting, which I guess is the >reason a lot of people are upset, is: is there a way to cut the con >down to 2000 without a) letting in people who want a party, not a >con, or b) screwing over people who are genuinely interested. I >think a major part of this should be mandatory pre-registration. >That way, anyone who It is very likely that registration will be allowed at the door, except for professionals, as the cut off will probably be met with pre-registration. But why are you so certain that the pre-registrants would magically be people who are genuinely interested? Are you sure that none of the hundreds that registered for the 1988 Boskone at the 1987 Boskone are just in it for booze and parties? >would suffer on account b would have only themselves to blame. >Limiting You may think they have only themselves to blame but you should have heard the people phoning up during the 1987 Boskone, bitching about how high the at the door registration rate was, and when told that it had been lower to pre-register complained bitterly that it was NESFA's fault that they only learned about Boskone a few days/weeks before the con. >costumes/weapons sounds to me like something that is necessary, >just to keep a hotel. And there's no reason the con can't be >first-register first-get in. That way, it would be cut to 2000, >and though it would From the votes, about 10% of the NESFA voting members favored first-come first-served. 90% or so ended up voting for the rules that have been adopted. Remember, these are for 1988 only and will be reconsidered thereafter. >still be hard to get in, it wouldn't be impossible, and certainly >wouldn't be due to any snobbery/elitism. And if it is found >necessary Why isn't favoring those who happen to be "in the know" and get in their registration early a form of elitism? Of course the first to know would be SF club members, particularly NESFA members, a group you say you are not interested in joining. What about people who genuinely don't know if they will be able to make it to the convention? Would you make an exception for someone who could prove they had travelled hundreds of miles and showed up without a membership? Are you assuming these rules will be inflexibly enforced and if so why are you making that assumption? If you think people in NESFA are scared of being thought elitist, you should note that the graffiti, etc., around Boskone would lead one to think NESFA has already been judged hopelessly elistist and thus has nothing to lose by discrimination. >to give preference to certain groups of people, such as writers, >people who have spent gobs of $, or whatever, then a quota system >could be implemented, or the forms could be sent to them earlier >... No special form has ever been required to register for Boskone. All that is needed is a name, address, and the registration fee. Donald E. Eastlake, III +1 617-492-8860 ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 18:00:20 GMT From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) Subject: Re: Boskone KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU writes: >As for reducing membership, the obvious and non-discriminatory >solution is to auction off the 2000 or however many memberships. >Perhaps let Gee, lots of other people who contribute to this group seem to think that basing anything on money spent or the like is highly discriminatory and elitist. >everyone pay what they feel a membership is worth, and a month or >two before the con, refund all but the top 2000 bids (ties to be >decided by postmark date). Perhaps also set up an area for >"scalpers" so that people can get memberships at the door. This does not work very well due to problems with hotel reservations, travel plans, and just plans in general. It would bias things towards those with lots of idle time who would not care if they did not know what they were doing that weekend until just a month or two before. >a higher membership fee, which would discourage randoms and >non-serious attendees. It would also give NESFA cash with which to >hire people to help with the con. To actually pay prevailing salaries for everyone working on the con would probably multiply the registration fee by a factor of ten, brining it up to some typical mundane convention fees. To have some paid and some unpaid people working on the con invites other problems of voluntees wondering why they shouldn't get more. Besides, its hard to believe that paid staff would ever work as hard as the volunteers do on Boskone. >I for one am tired of being made to feel guilty for not offering to >help out. I don' know how anyone can make you feel guilty if you are not so inclined. Most people who work on the convention do so because they enjoy doing it, in one way or another, rather than because of some feeling of guilt. Donald E. Eastlake, III +1 617-492-8860 ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 87 18:59:07 GMT From: scirtp!george@rutgers.edu (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.) Subject: Don't Mourn; Organize (was Re: SnobCon) So then, as a clarification, tyg said, > Dan, I'm sorry to have to do this under this subject; I'd planned > to incorporate what I'm about to say into a much longer article on > Boskone and the way people are reacting to the changes. But your > article was a reasonably considerate and well-written comment > about how you don't like the "secret society" and "incestuous" > attitudes that you perceive the committee having. So I said, The perception is entirely correct and the considerateness therefore entirely inappropriate. > The only problem is that you've got it all wrong; at least the > motivation behind the decisions made for next year. The alleged motivations are of marginal relevance when the result is that half the people who want to go get discriminated against, and no attempt is made to ensure that the half that goes is a representative sample of the whole. > Everybody, please read this; The committee did not decide to cut > next year's Boskone from 4200 people to 1500-2000 people. The fact > that the Sheraton does not want the con back, and that the only > two other hotels in Boston that can physically hold a greater than > 2000 person convention will not allow the con to be held there. > The Boskone committee, due to decisions that they *had no control > over* have NO choice but to cut attendance by 2200-2700 people; a > factor of between 50 and 60% roughly. This is untrue. People almost always have choices. The only absolute requirements are that the con be about SF and be held in Boston or Cambridge in spaces vaguely resembling hotels. All other requirements are flexible. Point 1: there is more than 1 hotel in Boston with a capacity of ~1800. Are any two (or three) such hotels near each other? Across the street from each other? You could obviously just become a distributed system. Point 2: If the relevant sub-committee of NESFA won't do this willingly, odds are that it will just be taken out of its hands: any group of the discriminated-against with the requisite amount of gumption and money is perfectly free to just stage a competing con. That's what I meant by the subject header. > this was not something that was done by the committee), can you or > anyone come up with a way of encouraging new people to come that > makes any sense when the committee has to somehow get over 2000 > people who were there last year not to show up next year? Like I said, use 3 hotels. If that means you have to charge more, then charge more. That method of screening is at least socially accepted in capitalist America. People can find competing parties for cheaper, but they probably can't find competing SF cons. > To conclude, I'll reiterate; Boskone attendance has to be cut by > over half in one year, due to decisions by hotels, not the Boskone > committee. They have *no* choice in this. This is patently false. There is more than 1 small hotel in Boston. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 87 22:47:51 GMT From: uwmacc!oyster@rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster) Subject: Re: CruiseCon bverreau@mipos3.UUCP (Bernie Verreau ~) writes: [Regarding new Boskone guidelines:] >...however, I was struck by the distinctly unfriendly attitude >directed toward outsiders and the feeling of regimentation conveyed >by the rules. The above comment should be read and re-read several times by that guy who keeps repeating "Stop whining, they *have* to do it." Sure, measures must be taken. The announcement *does* come off as snobby, incestuous, and whatever all those other people said that seems to be offending some people. (And note that the restrictions seem reasonable to me *personally*.) >One setting that seems conducive to a more relaxed gathering is the >weekend cruise... I realize it's more expensive than renting hotel >facilities, but if you really want to go after a more "mature" >crowd, maybe that's an advantage. Has this been tried before? Sign me up! Joel Plutchak uucp: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster ARPA: oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu BITNET: plutchak@wiscmacc ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 9 Apr 87 0855-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #143 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Apr 87 0855-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #143 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 9 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 143 Today's Topics: Books - Moorcock & The King in Yellow (8 msgs) & Long Novels & A Recommendation & Humorous SF & Heart of the Comet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Apr 87 03:48:31 GMT From: osupyr!twd@rutgers.edu (The Twid) Subject: Michael Moorcock First of all, Trivia. Michael Moorcock wrote the lyrics to the sone 'Veteran of the Psychic Wars' by Blue Oyster Cult (off of 'Heavy Metal' movie. Now a request. Could someone tell me what Moorcock has done since the Elric Series?? I know he has continued the 'Eternal Champion' stuff, but I would like to get a listing of each book and a short description of the story, if possible. Thanks for the help.... Todd Dailey twd%osupyr.uucp ...!cbatt!osupyr!twd ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 15:21:20 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Story Request haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes: >Can someone help me? I'm looking for a story I once read -- in a >magazine I think. It concerns a book (story? play?) which nobody >has ever succeeded in reading to the end. The story contains a >snipet of the play, which seems to be based on "The King in >Yellow". The story is "The Yellow Sign" by Robert W. Chambers. It was published originally in 1895 in the collection called "The King In Yellow And Other Stories" and is (probably still) available from Dover Press. An excerpt: "...Night fell and the hours dragged on, but still we murmured to each other of the King and the Pallid Mask, and midnight sounded from the misty spires in the fog-wrapped city. We spoke of Hastur and of Cassilda, while outside the fog rolled against the blank windowpanes as the cloud waves roll and break on the shores of Hali..." Another place name from "The King In Yellow" is Carcosa. Chambers took much inspiration from the writings of Ambrose Bierce, and the place name Carcosa is from Bierce's story "Inhabitants of Carcosa." Chambers was an influence on H. P. Lovecraft, among others. If I'm not mistaken, Hastur, Carcosa, and Hali all make appearances in Lovecraft's Lovecraft. The Yellow Sign itself is a hieroglyph in a NONHUMAN language engraved on a piece of jewelry. There are hints of other worlds or realities breaking into this one and there are human minions of the forces of those worlds in our world. The influences on Lovecraft are obvious. Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 15:28:24 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Story Request A correction: in rereading your request, I think the story you're looking for may NOT be "The Yellow Sign" but some story by an author other than Chambers that refers to "The King In Yellow." Possibly you'll find the specific story you're looking for in some Arkham Press publication. Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 17:54:47 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Common names (was Re: Story Request) wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: > [ talking about R. W. Chambers' "The King in Yellow" ] >Chambers was an influence on H. P. Lovecraft, among others. If I'm >not mistaken, Hastur, Carcosa, and Hali [place names in TKIY -- SG] >all make appearances in Lovecraft's Lovecraft. The Yellow Sign >itself is a hieroglyph in a NONHUMAN language engraved on a piece >of jewelry. There are hints of other worlds or realities breaking >into this one and there are human minions of the forces of those >worlds in our world. The influences on Lovecraft are obvious. Hastur, Hali, and Carcosa also show up in Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series and her brother Paul Edwin Zimmer's Dark Border series. Was Chambers the first to use them? Are they from any filk source? Who else has used them? Gosh. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 00:27:36 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Common names (was Re: Story Request) Shoshana Green writes: >Hastur, Hali, and Carcosa also show up in Marion Zimmer Bradley's >Darkover series and her brother Paul Edwin Zimmer's Dark Border >series. Was Chambers the first to use them? Are they from any flk >source? Who else has used them? Gosh. Let me ask my question more explicitly, because I really would like to know. "The King in Yellow" (1895) is both the name of the anthology and the book-within-a-book that much of the anthology is about. We never see the contents of the book -- reading it drives one insane -- but we are privy to some of the readers' musings. The names mentioned include: Hastur, Cassilda, Camilla, Alar, Carcosa, Lake Hali. (Clearly we have the makings of one good ballad here.) Did H.P. Lovecraft and Marion Zimmer Bradley both draw names from this source, or are all three drawing from an older source? (No, not *that* old!) Part of the reason I think there might be another source is that I remember reading a story (my Story Request) which featured a book which much resembled "The King in Yellow" except that the only curse on it seemed to be that it was impossible to finish the book. This story did feature a lengthy excerpt which included yet other names familiar from Darkovan books, but the only one I remember for sure was Alton. On the other hand, this story may have been written *later* than "The Sword of Aldones" -- I don't remember. (As I said in my original post, the man trying to read the book fails to finish it because of the flickering of the lights. The story ends with his host's explanation of why, because of special wiring, it is impossible that the lights were flickering.) Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 01:58:47 GMT From: reed!soren@rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen) Subject: Re: Story Request haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes: >reading to the end. The story contains a snipet of the play, which >seems to be based on "The King in Yellow". > >Can someone point me to the story? Yes! The story is by James Blish. I believe it appears in a collection of fantasy stories entitled "Alchemy and Academe", edited (I think) by Anne McCaffrey and someone else. But what is the significance of "The King in Yellow"? Does it exist in the "real" world? I got the impression that it did. soren f petersen tektronix!reed!soren ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 09:00:23 GMT From: stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) Subject: King in Yellow (was Re: Story Request) soren@reed.UUCP (Soren Petersen) writes: >>reading to the end. The story contains a snipet of the play, >>which seems to be based on "The King in Yellow". > Yes! The story is by James Blish. I believe it appears in a > collection of fantasy stories entitled "Alchemy and Academe", > edited (I think) by Anne McCaffrey and someone else. I can confirm that the Blish story appears in "Alchemy and Academe". In addition to the Lovecraft, Bradley, Zimmer and Blish stories already mentioned, Ian Watt-Evans has a four-book series which features the King in Yellow, the Pallid Mask, Carcosa and the Book of Silence. The King appears in all four of the books, but the other aspects of this "modern myth" don't appear in the first book at all. Offhand I can only remember the titles of the first and last books: "The Lure of the Basilisk" and "The Book of Silence". This makes at least five authors who have used the King in Yellow or Hali/Carcosa in some form or another. Stu Friedberg {seismo,allegra}!rochester!stuart stuart@cs.rochester.edu ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 18:48:43 GMT From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Re: King in Yellow (was Re: Story Request) stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes: >Ian Watt-Evans has a four-book series which features the The name is Lawrence. I think you've incorporated the name "Ian Watson" into this as well; no surprise, as they're alphabetically adjacent. >King in Yellow, the Pallid Mask, Carcosa and the Book of Silence. >The King appears in all four of the books, but the other aspects of >this "modern myth" don't appear in the first book at all. > >Offhand I can only remember the titles of the first and last books: >"The Lure of the Basilisk" and "The Book of Silence". The series (_The Adventures of Garth the Overman_) goes as follows: The Lure of the Basilisk The The Seven Altars of Dusarra The Sword of Bheleu The Book of Silence I haven't read them myself, but I understand that they have alot to recommend them. I like Watt-Evan's lighter works, and think that he's a good critic. He used to write a very good column for the _Comic Buyer's Guide_. Kevin J. Maroney mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 87 20:25:42 GMT From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: The King In Yellow: Names I did a little background checking on the names Carcosa, Hastur, and Hali as they are used in Ambrose Bierce's stories: Carcosa is a "famous" and "ancient" city that the narrator in Bierce's story "An Inhabitant Of Carcosa" is trying to get back to. In more than one story, Bierce quotes someone named Hali. From "An Inhabitant Of Carcosa:" "...Pondering these words of Hali (whom God rest)..." From his story "Haita The Shepherd:" "...He rose with the sun and went forth to pray at the shrine of Hastur, the god of shepherds..." I have no idea whether or not someone named Hali really existed, or whether a god of shepherds named Hastur really exists in some mythology. I suspect not. The names do not seem to have the horrific connotations that Chambers (and later authors) ascribed to them. Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 7 Apr 1987 12:46:53-PDT From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong novels/stories I've read so many notes on short stories and how much people like them. And so many other notes on how bad some series of novels are, especially after the first one. It's time to say something about why I like to read long novels and multiple-volume stories. When I pick a work of fiction to read for enjoyment, I tend to choose novels with lots of pages -- over 600 pages is a general guideline for me. Otherwise, I look for a multi-volume set with a good reputation ("The Belgariad," for example). I'm not one of those readers who practically consumes books at the rate of one per day. I've found I get a lot more enjoyment from a good book if I read it slowly, with occasional breaks to mentally digest the story. That gives me time to sort out the reasons why I like the story, and/or the reasons why I don't like it. If I have a good, long novel in front of me, I get myself ready to really get involved in the story. If the author provides enough meat for this kind of reflection, the novel is a success for me. Sometimes I'm disappointed, and I cannot continue or finish without a great deal of effort. Since I read for enjoyment, I don't often invest that much effort. But with enough challenge and some character development, I can sink into a book (or series) for a week or longer. I carry the book around with me wherever I go, reading in every spare minute. I used to get in trouble in school when, as a kid, I hid my book under the desk (remember the kind with the top that flipped up to put your papers inside?) One day, I sneaked a few pages in while the teacher was demonstrating penmanship on the board. All I can remember is that when I looked up, there was silence in the room and the teacher was no longer in front of the blackboard. I looked up, and she was standing right behind my shoulder. "Is that a good book, Mary?" she asked. The entire class started laughing. Boy, was I embarrassed. And then I had to write "I will not read in class" one hundred times in cursive for the next day. Anyhow, I prefer my books long, even if they are heavier to carry around -- at least once I find something I like, I don't have to choose another so quickly. And I get a chance to react to the story in a meaningful way. Of course, when I get close to the end of a book I like, I delay the ending as much as I can. By the way, I'm enjoying The Belgariad, despite the cardboard characters and obvious plot mechanics. It has enough complexity to make me want to finish it. Mary ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 01:00:34 GMT From: dzoey@umd5.umd.edu (Joe Herman) Subject: Re: A Voyage to Arcturus If you liked Voyage to Arcturus, you may like "A Fish Dinner at Memmisson". The author escapes me, but it's the same person who wrote "The Worm Oroborous." Fish Dinner is in the middle of a extremeley loosely connected trilogy. We had to read both Arturus and Fish Dinner in English last semester. Arcturus caused some pretty strong reactions in class. Most people either really loved it (a clear minority) or royally despised it (the majority). Personally I disliked Arcturus, but the philosophy is interesting. I just thought the book was pointless. (gee, it's nice to be able to say this without 1/4 of the classes shouting back at me :-) ) A note about Fish Dinner. It requires a couple of reads. The first time I went through it, the writing style discusted me, but on rereading, you really begin to appreciate the book. It's not for everyone. Also, Fish Dinner is now out of print, but you can probably find a copy in a used bookstore. Joe Herman dzoey@umd5.umd.edu dzoey@umdd.bitnet seismo!umd5.umd.edu!dzoey P.S. Thanx to whoever recommended "A Voice for Princess". It was the most enjoyable read I've had in a long time, especially the section with the dragon that spoke in alliteration. Hillarious! ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 15:33:59 GMT From: howard@pioneer.arpa (Lauri Howard) Subject: Humorous SF And now for something totally different, I'm looking for more funny SF writers along the lines of Sheckley, Tenn, Adams, and Harrison. I have read a couple of Asprin's "Myth..." books; I found them mytherably predictable and trite. Any suggestions? Thanks, Lauri p.s. This is my first posting so please excuse any blatant mistakes. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 02:36:53 GMT From: gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM (Gregory M. Paris) Subject: Heart of the Comet If you haven't yet read Benford/Brin's _Heart_of_the_Comet_, you'll probably want to skip this article. I finished HotC about a week ago, and so have had time for it to percolate around in my head for a while. What did *you* think of it? I was disappointed. Maybe I've become jaded, but it seems to me that there wasn't much *new* in this book. Sure, it was supposed to have a basis in "hard science" and that limits how "fantastic" it can be, but I'm talking originality here. Some of the ideas seemed to be almost direct ripoffs from other books (like what happened to Virginia seemed suspiciously similar to the fate of Robin Broadhead of _Gateway_ fame). And yet another immortal? Gads! How many of our heroes just happened to fall into that category? One thing that irks me is that I did like the characters of Saul, Virginia, and Carl, but it didn't seem to me that they never got much development. I wanted to have fun with these characters, but just about everything boiled down to some stroke of luck by Saul, or some fit of hacking par excellent on the part of Virginia. Sure, there was a lot of stress, but the answers always came too easily or too suddenly. OK, that's all I have to say. Anyone want to expand on or rebut what I've said? Oh, BTW, how many noticed the reference to the "Uplift Institute?" Greg Paris gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM {cci632,cbosgd,gatech,ihnp4,linus,uiucdcs,umcp-cs}!rayssd!gmp ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 9 Apr 87 0913-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #144 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Apr 87 0913-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #144 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 9 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 144 Today's Topics: Books - Alexander (3 msgs) & Cooper & Farmer (2 msgs) & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Keyes (3 msgs) & Lee & L'Engle & Nelson & Wolfe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Apr 87 18:50:55 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: The Black Cauldron bcm@cblpe.UUCP (55216-Bob Morman) writes: >rhr@osupyr.UUCP (The Fugitive Guy) writes: >>I was wondering if Alexander Lloyd ( of the Black Cauldron series >>) has written any other fantasy works. I would also like the name >>of the books in the Black Cauldron series that are not listed >>here. >Is this the same Black Cauldron as the recent Walt Disney animated >movie ? First of all, folks, it's Lloyd Alexander, not Alexander Lloyd. Yes, the Disney movie was based on the "Book of Three" series, one volume of which is called "The Black Cauldron". HOWEVER... It should be noted that Mr. Alexander had nothing whatsoever to do with the movie. He sold the rights years ago, it languished for a *long* time, Disney finally decided to make the film; he had no input on it at all. He only knew they were doing it when he read about it in the papers. I know this because my college sf club spent an enjoyable afternoon at his house about two months before the movie came out, and of course we asked about it. I am making such a big deal of this because I found the movie a *terrible* adaptation of the books. In itself it was fair-to-ok, but the Book of Three it was NOT. As a Lloyd Alexander fan, I don't want people who haven't read the series thinking it is as trite as the movie was. It's not. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 04:31:59 GMT From: ps160bag@sdcc13.ucsd.EDU Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries rhr@osupyr.UUCP (The Fugitive Guy) writes: > I was wondering if Alexander Lloyd ( of the Black Cauldron series > ) has written any other fantasy works. I would also like the name > of the books in the Black Cauldron series that are not listed > here. The books not listed here are _The Book of Three_ _The Castle of Llyr_ There is also a book of short stories that I have never been able to find. As for other fantasy, there is the trilogy about the Beggar Queen, but it is more otherworld historical than Fantasy proper. Those books are _The Beggar Queen_, The Kestrel and one other that I can't recall at the moment. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 87 15:04:01 EDT From: the Shadow Subject: Lloyd Alexander There is another book by Lloyd Alexander which no one has mentioned yet That is _The_Marvelous_Misadventures_of_Sebastian_ . I read this when I was quite young (no more than 18, I'm sure ;^). I rediscovered it in the University of Arizona library, and thouroughly enjoyed re-reading it. It doesn't have the depth of The Chronicles of Prydain, either in its characters or its background and it has very little in the way of magic (a certain violin which just happens to fall into our hero's musically-inclined hands). However, it is very fun fantasy story, full of all sorts of cliched adventure and romance. I highly recommend it to anyone who needs a break from *serious* reading. There was another one called _Time_Cat_, which I seem to remember reading, although I can't remember any of the details. That's annoying ... I must be getting old. regards, Jeff Hanes UUCP: {seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl!jeffh ARPA: USnail: 1447 Harford Sq Edgewood, MD 21040 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 87 09:55:09 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Susan Cooper's The Dark Is Rising series From: ucla-cs!srt (Scott R. Turner) > Hmm. The current release has "The Dark is Rising" as the first > book. Are you sure "Over Sea, Under Stone" isn't the English > title for one of the other books? Though it does sound from the > title like it might explain the events leading up to "Greenwitch". Yes, OVER SEA, UNDER STONE is really the first book in the series (though the name of the series is taken from the second). The reason it's not in "the current release" is a rather simple one. OVER was originally published (in the US) by Harcourt, Brace, and the rest by Atheneum. HB retained the paperback rights to OVER for themselves, while Atheneum published the others in trade paper, and recently sold mass market rights to Collier. OVER is in print currently in paperback (the mid-sized paperback many children's books come in --- about the size of the digest magazines) from Harcourt's Harvest/Voyager imprint. Since the others are from a different publisher, they tend to ignore the fact that there is another book in the series. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 87 09:55:22 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) Subject: Re: Philip Jose' Farmer jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini) writes: >Hello out there in net-land. I just finished reading Phillip Jose' >Farmer's "Riverworld series". (To Your Scattered Bodies Go, et al) >and I was confused on a few points. I was hoping that someone more >literate than I could answer them. > >1) Why were the people resurrected in the first place? I understood >about the failing computer endangering the collective wathan's and >that the "experiment" was to run for 120 years only. I was left >somewhat in the dark as to the real purpose of the resurrections. My impression was that they did it from mainly altruistic motives. This is probably wrong because: 1. Farmer seldom has anyone do anything out of pure altruism, they usually have an ulterior motive. 2. The ending of the book was confusing and the explanation (actually, several contradictory explanations) were not conducive to easy understanding. See my comment at the end of this posting. >C) Lastly, I can see why he would want to avoid putting Christ in >the book, except for quacks claiming to be Him. But I would have >included someone like John the Baptist. or at least a pope or >apostle. There is a short story called "Riverworld" (included in a collection called "Riverworld and Other Stories") in which there is a character named Jeshua. This Jeshua was the person whom the myths about Jesus were based. Farmer was having fun with this one since he also had Tom Mix (a 1930's movie cowboy) in it and they (Mix and Jeshua) resembled each other close enough to be twins. >Like I said, I welcome the opinions of others on this marvelous >series. Many of Farmer's stories conclude with a complicated explanation of what went on before the story started. These are briefly summarized and often confuse me when I first read them. In order to understand them, I find it is necessary to go back and read large sections of the story over. That was the case with the series, but I was not sufficiently motivated to do the rereading. Like most of Farmer's stories, this one starts out great but bogs down at the end with an overcomplicated conclusion. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 02:10:36 GMT From: ee171aai@sdcc13.ucsd.EDU Subject: Re: Philip Jose' Farmer jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini) writes: >C) Lastly, I can see why he would want to avoid putting Christ in >the book, except for quacks claiming to be Him. But I would have >included someone like John the Baptist. or at least a pope or >apostle. Farmer did write a short story on this subject which appears in the collection "Riverworld and other Stories". Unfortunately, I cannot find my copy, and have forgotten the title of the story. It concerns Christ, or at least a man whom we believe to be Christ (it is made somewhat ambiguous) who is resurrected in the enclave of a fanatical right-wing christian. I can see where Farmer would want to avoid using someone like Christ in a longer story, and especially in an adventure novel. It his hard to imagine Christ journeying to the source of the river, fighting tyrants, or doing anything "active" (i.e. other than preaching). Steve ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 02:40:57 GMT From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein barry@borealis.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes: >The only other pseudonym I know of RAH using is "Lyle Monroe", >which he used on a single story, for reasons unknown to me. I don't >recall which story it was, either, but I know it's been reprinted >under RAH's own name, as have all the "Anson MacDonald" stories. If I had to guess, it's THEY DO IT WITH MIRRORS, his only whodunnit. (It was reprinted in EXPANDED UNIVERSE.) I don't think he'd have wanted his real name on a mystery at the time, thanks to the perceived ``ghetto''. Brandon S. Allbery 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +1 216 974 9210 cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@relay.CS.NET ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 87 23:43:09 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Heinlein pseudonyms To: borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU In his book _Heinlein in Dimension_ (1968), Alexei Panshin lists Anson McDonald, Lyle Monroe, Caleb Saunders, John Riverside, and Simon York as pseudonyms for Robert Heinlein. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 87 16:32:53 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: Addition to short story list To: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore) How about "Flowers for Algernon" by (oh rats---I can't remember who did it now). It was one of the most moving and unique stories I have ever read (including non-sf stuff). William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 18:09:40 GMT From: s.cc.purdue.edu!ahh@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Addition to short story list From: William LeFebvre >How about "Flowers for Algernon" by (oh rats---I can't remember who >did it now). It was one of the most moving and unique stories I >have ever read (including non-sf stuff). It was written by Daniel Keyes, and you are quite right about it. It was an extrememly good novella (it even won a much-deserved Hugo). It was later expanded into a novel (in my opinion, not as good as the original, but still very powerful). Brent Woods USENET: {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc.purdue.edu!ahh PHONE: (317) 743-6445 BITNET: PODUM@PURCCVM USNAIL: Brent Woods 500 Russell St., Apt. 19 West Lafayette, IN 47906 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 87 23:20:56 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: Addition to short story list To: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore) Now that I'm at home, I can look up the author. It was indeed Daniel Keyes. And you are also right about the length. In The Hugo Winners volume I, Asimov listed it as a novelette. It won the Hugo that year (1960) for "short fiction", and this was probably the source of my confusion---both novelettes and short stories apparently qualify for "short fiction" and I probably only remembered the "short" bit. What's interesting is that it seems most years there is a Hugo awarded for both novelette and short story, but that year there was only this category "short fiction". What's the dividing line, anyway? What's the difference between a short story, novelette, novella, and full-blown novel? William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 87 10:10 EST From: (Mary Malmros) Subject: Request for Tanith Lee titles Tanith Lee writes all different kinds of stuff: swords & sorcery, future fantasy, supernatural/horror, etc. I'm looking for titles in the following general categories: CATEGORY 1: REWRITES These books/stories are sort of rewrites of other plots. There are four that I know of. _Sung in Shadow_ is a Romeo and Juliet remake, _Red as Blood_ and _The Gorgon_ are rewrites of some European stories/myths, and _Tamastara_ is similar but with Indian settings/legends. CATEGORY 2: SUPERNATURAL This is pretty much what it sounds like. Books that I know of are _Dark Castle, White Horse_ (the first novella whose name eludes me at the moment) and _Sometimes, After Sunset_ (two novellas), and a short story, "Wolfland". If anyone can add to these, I would appreciate it. I'd also like publication info if you have it; I know that DCWH and Tamastara are still in print, I'm pretty sure Gorgon is, don't know about SiS or RaB, and would bet good money that _Sometimes, After Sunset_ is not. Mary Malmros MANAGER@SMITH (BITnet) ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 7 Apr 1987 12:19:35-PDT From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Science fiction is forever.) Subject: Madeleine L'Engle I'm sure this message is going to be delayed so long as to be incomprehensible by the time anyone receives this, but here goes. It is a rare occasion when I disagree with J&B, so I can't pass up the opportunity to continue a discussion about one of my favorite authors. I just read Issue #133, where William LeFevre says, "I agree that the three stories were not strongly coupled..." I want to add that I got the impression that "A Wrinkle In Time" is geared to a juvenile audience, whereas the other two books seem to have a more adult slant (though mild enough to be understood by a teenager). Did anyone else get this impression? It would help to explain the loose connections between the three books. Mary ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 87 08:26 PDT From: LAYOUT LUNATIC <"FOLSM2::MIKE%sc.intel.com"@RELAY.CS.NET> Subject: re: Story Request From: Brett Slocum >A friend asked if anyone could help finding this story. Plot: An >employee of a 'proctor-gamble' type company is fired. He is angry, >so he sky-writes nasty things about the company in the sky using >some sort of foamed substance that is very light, but practically >indestructible. These huge foam letters drift down to the town and >cause all sorts of havoc, because you can't get rid of them. The >won't burn, won't dissolve, nothing. The man eventually starts his >own company that sells a rather mediocre cleanser that has one >special property - it dissolves these foam things. Instant market. > >This sounds really strange. Anyone know what it is? Oh, he said >he read it in the early sixties. This is a short story written by Alan Nelson called _Soap Opera_. It was originally published in the April 1953 issue of _Magazine_of_Fantasy_and_ Science_Fiction_. It was reprinted at least once that I know of, in Fawcett books 1960 publication of _13_Great_Stories_of_Science_Fiction_. Actually a good story. Enjoy. mike may MIKE@FOLSM2.INTEL.COM ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 03:27:34 GMT From: mce@tc.fluke.COM (Brian McElhinney) Subject: Gene Wolfe news from Locus Some Gene Wolfe news from the latest Locus: URTH OF THE NEW SUN has been turned in to the publisher (Tor)! Contracts with Tor for two new books have been signed. One is called THERE ARE DOORS, and is about "a department store clerk who falls in love with a goddess from and alternate universe." The other has a working title of SOLDIER OF ARETE, and is the sequel to SOLDIER OF THE MIST. Can anyone tell me how long it "typically" takes to go from turning in a book, to when it is available? Brian McElhinney mce@tc.fluke.com ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 13 Apr 87 1009-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #145 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Apr 87 1009-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #145 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 13 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 145 Today's Topics: Books - Carr & Farmer (2 msgs) & Kurtz (2 msgs) & L'Engle & Lindsay (2 msgs) & Niven (2 msgs) & Pohl & Silverberg & Stephenson (2 msgs) & Swanwick ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Apr 87 18:01:00 PST From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Terry Carr is dead I've found out that Terry Carr, editor, author, and long-time fan, died Tuesday, April 7. Details are still sketchy, but we seem to have lost another strong editor and writer, as well as a neat person. SFdom will really miss him. chuq ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 13:36:45 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@rutgers.edu (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) Subject: Riverworld. jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini) writes: >1) Why were the people resurrected in the first place? I understood >about the failing computer endangering the collective wathan's and >that the "experiment" was to run for 120 years only. I was left >somewhat in the dark as to the real purpose of the resurrections. I think the people who conducted the Riverworld buisness regarded as a religious duty to create as many wathans as possible. WARNING! If you have not read "Gods of Riverworld", the following could be a spoiler! In The Dark Design (or was that the 3rd book? I forget. In the 4th book anyway) the questers are told that the meaning of the experiment is to have people reach so great an ethical standard, that they will "pass on". The 120 years is considered sufficient time for anyone to reach that stage if they are going to reach it at all. Thus the time limit. In "Gods.." however, we learn that whatans don't "pass on". Instead (with the aid of the computer) you are essentially immortal. The object of the testing time is to improve the ethical standards right enough, but for a much more practical reason: It's to ensure that the people who are eventually granted immortality, are folks that you can stand spending eternity with! Still, the object of creating wathans and "edjucating" people would seem to be religious anyway. Otherwise why bother at all? (Oops! Lost a line here!) >parent/child relationships. If I were resurrected I think I would >try to find my Mother and Father . I should imagine most people >would. The problem was that the odds against finding one particular person on the Riverworld was astronomical. Farmer explores this to some extent. Most people probably spent some days looking for their loved ones, decided to delay their search until they got a bit more organized and eventually gave up. Stubborn searchers moved along the riverbanks until they got enslaved. >B) I realize that Farmer had to draw the line somewhere but I would >used some "bigger" characters in the book. Einstein, George >Washington, Ceasar, JFK, Robert E. Lee, Charlemange, Brian Boru, >Ghandi, etc. What I mean is include some bigger than life >characters. (Who is Brian Boru?) It would be impossible for Farmer to include _every_ historical character. I think he did a good job of selection. In fact, I think he overdid it. The 3rd and 4th book could profitably (literally that is) have been cut down to one book by dropping some of the "extras" and cutting out some of that looooong fight between the riverboats. >C) Lastly, I can see why he would want to avoid putting Christ in >the book, except for quacks claiming to be Him. But I would have >included someone like John the Baptist. or at least a pope or >apostle. In the short story "Riverworld" (from "Riverworld and Other Stories") Jesus appears (with his look-alike Tom Mix!). The point of the story SPOILER ALERT! is that people who meet him are angry when he don't live up to how THEY think he should be (I think he is even tortured by someone), yet when he meets an old testament character (Moses, I think, or Abraham) he gets angry because this guy dosen't live up to HIS expectations. >Like I said, I welcome the opinions of others on this marvelous >series. As I said, it's good, but not so good as it would've been if it had been a trilogy. Hans Rancke University of Copenhagen Institute of Computer Science mcvax!diku!rancke ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 87 05:37:16 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Riverworld. (SPOILER!!!) rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes: >In the short story "Riverworld" (from "Riverworld and Other >Stories") Jesus appears (with his look-alike Tom Mix!). The point >of the story is that people who meet him are angry when he don't >live up to how THEY think he should be (I think he is even tortured >by someone), yet when he meets an old testament character (Moses, I >think, or Abraham) he gets angry because this guy dosen't live up >to HIS expectations. Actually, the two most interesting points are at the end of the story. The first is when he was sentenced to burn at the stake because he was a Jew, with the rationalization that they had rejected Jesus (the Divine Irony :-) and the second is the last line of the story: FINAL SPOILER ALERT!!!!!! ``Father! The *do* know what they're doing!'' Brandon S. Allbery cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@relay.cs.net 6615 Center St. #A1-105 MCIMail: BALLBERY Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 07:40:50 PDT (Friday) Subject: Katherine Kurtz books From: "Richard_W_Rodway.SBDERX"@Xerox.COM Does anyone on this list have a complete list of the Katherine Kurtz books set in the Deryni world. I am trying to collect these. The books I know of at present are Deryni Rising Deryni Checkmate High Deryni Camber of Culdi Saint Camber Camber the Heretic The Bishops Heir The Kings Justice But judging by various mailings on this list, there are others. Any help would be appreciated Richard Rodway ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 20:20:44 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz books From: "Richard_W_Rodway.SBDERX"@Xerox.COM >Does anyone on this list have a complete list of the Katherine >Kurtz books set in the Deryni world. I am trying to collect these. Well, certainly! In the order they should be read: >Deryni Rising >Deryni Checkmate >High Deryni > >Camber of Culdi >Saint Camber >Camber the Heretic > >The Bishop's Heir >The King's Justice The Quest for St. Camber (only in hardcover still) The short story collection "Deryni Archives" may be read once you have finished the first two trilogies, otherwise you won't understand some of it. It might be best to read some of the third trilogy, too. In chronological order, the second trilogy is first, then the first (after ~200 years), then the third (right after the first). Do not read them in that order, however. Several more trilogies are promised, filling out the 200-year gap and continuing past QfSC. Why am I posting this to the net, instead of Email? Because I have heard of another book by Kurtz, called "Codex Derynianus" (spelling possibly incorrect). I've seen it listed in Books in Print, but have never seen a copy, and have been told by Sherry Gottlieb of Change of Hobbit Bookstore that it doesn't exist. If anyone has concrete information on whether this book exists, please let me know! Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Apr 87 15:20:56 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: L'Engle's trilogy To: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.dec.com >marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM > I want to add that I got the impression that "A Wrinkle In Time" > is geared to a juvenile audience, whereas the other two books seem > to have a more adult slant (though mild enough to be understood by > a teenager). > Did anyone else get this impression? Most definitely! I read "A Wrinkle in Time" when I was in 5th or 6th grade (like it so much that I read "The Two Unicorns" afterwards), but didn't know about or read the other two until I was in college. Their existence was a mild surprise to me. I don't think I would have understood or appreciated the last few chapters of "A Wind in the Door". The part of the story that is actually the climax (I don't want to give any specifics) was so...... well...... odd that I don't really think I would have understood or enjoyed it as a 5th grader (I put it on the same level as the climax of C.S. Lewis's "Perelandra"). "A Swiftly Tilting Planet" probably would have gone right over my head because of all the time travel paradoxes. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University phil@Rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 08:12 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: A Voyage To Arcturus putnam@thuban.steinmetz quotes some lines from the introduction of A Voyage To Arcturus, and I have to agree with all the negative ones. I think the ploy to which I objected most was killing off a character when he got tired of the particular conflicts he'd set up for the character. I never finished this novel, even though it was assigned in class. Jeff, I don't know that reading A Voyage To Arcturus is worth it. I did finish Dying Inside, by Robert Silverberg, and got rid of it soon after. I couldn't stand the pity-me character who abused a wonderful gift unitl it disappeared. A goldplated slimeball is still a slimeball, and that's what the main character was. Marina Fournier Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 17:36:41 GMT From: uwvax!uwmacc!oyster@rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster) Subject: Re: A Voyage To Arcturus Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM writes: >putnam@thuban.steinmetz quotes some lines from the introduction of >A Voyage To Arcturus, and I have to agree with all the negative >ones.... >Jeff, I don't know that reading A Voyage To Arcturus is worth it. And if you hated the book, try watching the movie some time. It qualifies as the *only* movie I've ever walked out on, and I even sat through Def-Con 4. I think I was one of the last to leave, though, if that counts for anything. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 18:01:10 GMT From: rochester!ur-tut!bmg1@rutgers.edu (Brett Goldstock) Subject: Larry Niven Anyone out there know what he's working on? I heard he was doing a sequel to The Intergral Trees. brett ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 22:02:02 GMT From: uwvax!astroatc!stubbs@rutgers.edu (Dennis J. Kosterman) Subject: Re: Larry Niven bmg1@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Brett Goldstock) writes: >Anyone out there know what he's working on? >I heard he was doing a sequel to The Intergral Trees. He has finished the sequel to "The Integral Trees". I don't remember the title, and I don't think it's out in book form yet, but it's serialized in the January/April issues of "Analog". Dennis J. Kosterman stubbs@astroatc.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 17:57:44 GMT From: harvard!linus!bs@rutgers.edu (Robert D. Silverman) Subject: Pohl Strikes Again Anyone read the lastest `sequel' to the Heechee saga? It just appeared in hardback... and I thought `Heechee Rendevous' was supposed to be the last one. Bob Silverman ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 19:06:14 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: A Voyage To Arcturus This posting reveals the premise of Silverberg's DYING INSIDE, but that's not really a spoiler since you find it out in the first 20 pages anyway. What's important is what he does with it. Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM writes: >I did finish Dying Inside, by Robert Silverberg, and got rid of it >soon after. I couldn't stand the pity-me character who abused a >wonderful gift unitl it disappeared. A goldplated slimeball is >still a slimeball, and that's what the main character was. Hurm. DYING INSIDE is one of my favorite books. I've never quite understood the idea that the main character of a book ought to be someone you would like if you met him/her socially. DYING INSIDE concerns a telepathically gifted man who has never had much human contact outside of the tawdry, illicit use of his power; now he's middle-aged and his power is dying. I did pity him. Although I don't think I'd particularly like him as a friend, Silverberg made me understand his anguish, and that makes it difficult for me to think of him as a "slimeball." Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 01:46:35 GMT From: zamick@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonny the Z) Subject: The BIG U Here's a scoop on a little known book. The Big U. This could possibly be one of the most unusual books ever written. The first time I read it, I was stuck in a car for 8 hours with nothing to do, so I read. The book is difficult to get into, because it starts out in full swinging strangeness. The first time its read, it is mearly funny. Then looking back, you begin to laugh, so you read it again. This time its funnier. And so on and so on. I have given the book to many friends, and everyone who has gotten past the front and back cover (both of which are unfair to the quality of the book) has thanked me profusely. I heartily recommend the BIG U by Neal Stephenson to anybody with a strong and overwhelming imagination. Jonny zamick@rutgers.rutgers.edu munchkin@gold.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 87 02:13:05 GMT From: rochester!ur-tut!jdia@rutgers.edu (Wowbagger) Subject: Re: The BIG U zamick@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonny the Z) writes: >Here's a scoop on a little known book. The Big U. > >This could possibly be one of the most unusual books ever written. >... >I heartily recommend the BIG U by Neal Stephenson to anybody >with a strong and overwhelming imagination. Hi Folks! I also give _The_Big_U_ a strong recommendation. I loved it. But note: In order to really understand this book you must listen to the Bach Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor, and also the Bach Toccata and Fugue in D minor. The only recording of these that I can recommend was done by E. Power Biggs. The recording's title is _E_Power_Biggs_Plays_Bach_in_the_Thomaskirche_. I REPEAT! THIS IS THE ONLY RECORDING THAT I FOUND PASSABLE. NONE OF THE OTHER RECORDINGS HAD BASS WORTH #$%*^&$%. You will understand this prerequisite when you read the book... jdia@tut.cc.rochester.edu {seismo|topaz|cmcl2}!rochester!ur-tut!jdia ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 00:00:27 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!hobie@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: The "New Ace Science Fiction Specials" - where are they? Jared J Brennan (ins_bjjb@jhunix.UUCP) writes: > Ace has recently (past couple of months) released _The Hercules >Text_, which is in the line of Ace Specials. So, obviously, the >line continues to exist. > > The previous titles were... > _In the Drift_ (?) , ? The author of _In the Drift_ is Michael Swanwick. I have read it as well as _Neuromancer_ and _Green Eyes_. I can't recommend the latter two highly enough; both are fascinating reads. However, I don't understand how _In the Drift_ fell in with the same crowd. I disliked it utterly. It's about Three Mile Island going amok and poisoning a vast area (it's also some kind of evil intelligence--figure that one out) and clowns rule Philadelphia (REAL clowns, not the usual government type). Hobie Orris SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Ont. {ihnp4 | decvax | ? }!utzoo!sq!hobie ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 13 Apr 87 1040-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #146 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Apr 87 1040-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #146 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 13 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 146 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Boskone (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Apr 87 15:38:39 GMT From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) Subject: Re: Stuff on Boskone and Noreascon III From: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu > I want to know if the following 2 suggestions will be >implemented: 1) That memberships will be made non-transferrable. If >this is the case, the con publicity had better make this clear. If >you do not do so soon, someone is going to have some fun with NESFA >in court. I personally feel that this is a just plain scummy thing >to do. I may not be in New England next year, but I would like to >have the chance to buy a membership and then sell it if I cannot >make it to Boskone. Sorry you think this is scummy but there is no point in giving ceratin groups preference if memberships can be freely transferred. (However, I have to admit that I can't see why you shouldn't be able to transfer it to someone else in a prefered group.) Anyway, while people who feel like going to court can always do so, what particular grounds were you thinking of? Lots of people would like to buy a membership and not all of them will be able to because there will not be room. >2) That the people who have already bought memberships at $18.00 >may have their money refunded because with the smaller attendance, >this would be an undue hardship on the convention budgets. This >can be construed as fraud. I suppose anything can be construed as fraud if you try hard enough. Keeping the money of people who paid $18 for a traditional Boskone advertised as being on a specific weekend at the Sheraton Boston when it is now known that it will be a somewhat different kind of convention, at a different location, and probably a different date, seem more like fraud to me. > On Noreascon III: one of my housemates' father is a a major >contractor for the remodeling of the HYNES. The word from that >angle is: it is almost an impossibility that the Hynes auditorium >would be ready for Noreascon III. They are behind schedule and >over budget (the reality of public works in Massachusetts). I have heard this rumor several times before. And it's always from a very credible source. Once it was from someone who had worked for the city of Boston doing a study of upcoming construction schedules. You say you have it semi-directly from a major contractor. However, whenever I have checked it out in detail, it turns out the person spreading this rumor is confused about either the Hynes schedule or the Noreascon III schedule. Early on, the Hynes was scheduled to be done sometime in 1989 and there was some real risk. But the Hynes plans and schedule went through change after change and for a couple of years now they have been scheduled to finish 1 January *1988*. There are conventions booked into the Hynes in January 1988. Now, personally, I also believe the Hynes renovations will probably be finished behind schedule. (And I am not surprised about them being over budget.) But a few weeks or even a few months late is no threat to Noreascon III. The official word from the Masschusettes Convention Center Authority, nine months before the deadline, is still that all will be ready 1 January 1988. So what if this slips a full year? (Something which does not seem likely.) Noreascon III is scheduled *21* months after the supposed completion date of renovations. Donald E. Eastlake, III +1 617-492-8860 ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 87 15:42:58 GMT From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) Subject: Re: My previous Boskone suggestions From: djpl%hulk.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (The Wizard) >Of course, NESFA has already spoken on this matter. I'm waiting >for their newsletter so I can apply for my refund. No need to wait. Anyone who bought a membership and is now sure they don't want to attend Boksone XXV (the 1988 Boskone) should just drop a note to NESFA asking for a refund: Boskone XXV c/o NESFA PO Box G MIT Branch PO Cambrdige, MA 02139 Donald E. Eastlake, III +1 617-492-8860 ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 14:19:07 GMT From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (rich kolker) Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was Re: SnobCon) george@scirtp.UUCP (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.) writes: >Point 1: there is more than 1 hotel in Boston with a capacity of ~ >1800. Are any two (or three) such hotels near each other? Across >the street from each other? You could obviously just become a >distributed system. > >Point 2: If the relevant sub-committee of NESFA won't do this >willingly, odds are that it will just be taken out of its hands: >any group of the discriminated-against with the requisite amount of >gumption and money is perfectly free to just stage a competing con. >That's what I meant by the subject header. LOOK, I don't agree with how NESFA is cutting down either (I do realize they have to, and are free to do so as they choose) but the last thing we need is a feud and competing conventions! If you think running a convention is simple (and you seem to imply that in your postings) then you obviously haven't tried to run a good sized con in a major city. Running a convention, of any size, is hard work. Hard VOLUNTEER work. It effects your paid job, grades (if you're a student), your social life, your spare time, your relationships with other people, and often your bank account. Calling NESFA names is not going to solve any problems. Threatening them with a competing con is not going to solve any problems. I have found, in the past, that rowdyism at sf cons tends to run in cycles. NESFA is trying to deal with an upturn in that cycle to the best of their ability. You may remember, I was the first to bitch about "obligations to fandom" when I saw what appeared to be an elitist attitude toward next year's Boskone. I felt the moves taken would not solve the problems they were aimed to solve. But this was before it became necessary to change hotels and drastically cut the size of the convention. Drastic situations require drastic measures. This is one of those situations. No matter if I agree with their solution (and I don't), flaming them on the Net is not the solution. And childish "we'll run another con across the street" statements is counterproductive at best (what it is at worst is left as an exercise for the reader). Finally, if you don't like what Boskone is doing...pick a weekend and run your own con! You're free to pick Boskone's, but you'll lose your shirt. One thing I have found about most con committees, they are more than happy to help you get yours started. You see, that gives us something to attend when we're not busy running ours. We now return you to this message, already in progress.... >If that means you have to charge more, then charge more. That >method of screening is at least socially accepted in capitalist >America. People can find competing parties for cheaper, but they >probably can't find competing SF cons. So you have the money to attend a con that costs like a professional conference? Many of the new fans that you worry would be shut out by Boskone, don't. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 87 21:03:03 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Boskone To: trudel@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU >> As for reducing membership, the obvious and non-discriminatory >> solution is to auction off the 2000 or however many memberships. > > Wrong-o! It discriminates against people who have no spare money, > like myself. Well, given that 4000 people want to attend and only 2000 will be allowed to, due to forces beyond the control of NESFA, SOME method must be used. Money is the most fair way of measuring one's seriousness about attending. For one thing, any other method means that some people, probably inclduing me, will not be allowed to attend whether or not they are willing to save up for months, as I do, and as I'm sure you could. For another thing, much of the extra money can be given directly to the hotel or can be used to hire security types to keep the hotel happy, which will make Boskone more attractive to hotels. And that IS the main problem now, right? An inexpensive Boskone is of no use to me if I can't attend it. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 03:34:08 GMT From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jon Meltzer) Subject: Re: My previous Boskone suggestions dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes: >From: djpl%hulk.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (The Wizard) >>Of course, NESFA has already spoken on this matter. I'm waiting >>for their newsletter so I can apply for my refund. > >No need to wait. Anyone who bought a membership and is now sure >they don't want to attend Boksone XXV (the 1988 Boskone) should >just drop a note to NESFA asking for a refund: Well, I haven't bought a membership yet, but was considering it. Should I even bother? (and, by the way, I've only attended two, not three, Boskones). Interesting article in Locus .... apparently the fire alarm problem was caused, as suspected by me and others, by an oversensitive hotel security system .... ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 17:42:22 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) Subject: Re: Boskone XXV Info from INSTANT MESSAGE >>>7) No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or guardian. >>>We will make exceptions for: members of known SF clubs, gophers. > >I happen to think this is a particularly obnoxious rule. What is >magic about 18? Legally (except for drinking), you are an adult when you turn 18 in most states. The legal ramifications are quite different when the person involved is under 18. Anyone under 18 is legally a "child" and all sorts of child protection laws come into play. It doesn't matter that the physical, emotional and psychological difference between someone who is 17 years, 11 months and 29 days old and someone else who is 18 years and 1 day old is trivial. Danny Low Hewlett-Packard ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 17:58:11 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (rich kolker) Subject: Re: Boskone From: "Keith F. Lynch" >An inexpensive Boskone is of no use to me if I can't attend it. An expensive Boskone is of no use to me if I can't afford it (and NESFA doesn't need the money) Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 17:26:34 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was Re: SnobCon) >Point 1: there is more than 1 hotel in Boston with a capacity of ~ >1800. Are any two (or three) such hotels near each other? Across >the street from each other? You could obviously just become a >distributed system. At Boskone 24, the temperature was below freezing with a brisk 10 - 20 mph wind a lot of the time. Walking back and forth between hotels in such weather is not my idea of fun. Imagine walking back and forth several times a day between two hotels in the middle of winter. Going out is a major production. You got to put on your overcoat, scarf, hat, overboots, etc. I suspect that going back and forth between 20 degree F and 80 degree F temperatures that often may not be all that healthy. Also multiple hotels increases the problems of running a con. You now have to deal with several hotel managers and their staffs. If something happen in one hotel, it takes longer to get someone over there to investigate. The vandals would have an easier time of it in a mutliple hotel situation. That is the problem that led to the current situation. Multiple hotels would only make the problem worse. This is not a solution. It ignores the original cause of the problem instead of trying to address it. Danny Low Hewlett-Packard ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 05:15:09 GMT From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: CruiseCon oyster@uwmacc.UUCP writes: >bverreau@mipos3.UUCP (Bernie Verreau ~) writes: >[Regarding new Boskone guidelines:] >>...however, I was struck by the distinctly unfriendly attitude >>directed toward outsiders and the feeling of regimentation >>conveyed by the rules. > > The above comment should be read and re-read several times by >that guy who keeps repeating "Stop whining, they *have* to do it." >Sure, measures must be taken. The announcement *does* come off as >snobby, incestuous, and whatever all those other people said that >seems to be offending some people. (And note that the restrictions >seem reasonable to me *personally*.) Well, I'll assume that I'm the "guy" in question; based on an assumed gender reference in guy, it's either me or Don Eastlake. While I haven't used the term "whining" yet, perhaps I should have used it in regard to some postings (particularly the "Well, I haven't even ever been to a Boskone, or ever worked on a con and have no intention of ever doing so, but NESFA's being so *unfair* to me, just in case I decide I want to go to Boskone next year." type. Or the "Well I don't like Boskone being cut to 1,500 so it can't happen" type. Or the "Well, I've never helped organize a large convention, but obviously x will fix everything that's wrong, no question about it" type. Note that the last is not directed at those who have suggested different approaches; it's the assumption that their idea is just so obviously right that irritates me.). Sigh. I'm grumpy tonight. Maybe that's why even after reading and re-reading the above comment several times, I keep coming to the same conclusion; the restrictions weren't posted by NESFA as an announcement. Take a look. All of the copies of the restrictions that were posted were posted by people who got them out of the NESFA clubzine Instant Message. Based on my own copy, no one who was actually at the meeting that voted on those rules posted them, and no member of either this year's or next year's Boskone committee did either. Sometime in the next month or two, NESFA will be sending out a letter to all attendees of this year's Boskone that will announce the changes to next year's. While I don't know this, I assume that this letter will attempt to explain why these changes were made, and give a bit of background. As an example of the difference, what say I list the "restictions" for reading rec.arts.sf-lovers? 1) You must have an account on a Usenet, Bitnet, or Arpanet site. 2) You must find out about the existence of the group. 3) You must be able to read. 4) You must understand how to read news/subscribe to a digest. Try reading the above without knowledge of why they are necessary. Sound rather grim, don't they. Well, what most people here have seen is just the raw text of the restrictions (for next year only so far, by the way). They haven't read any of the debate over their adoption. They're making guesses as to the motivations without real information about them. The restrictions were posted without NESFA having any opportunity to try to explain why they were being imposed, at least immediately. So don't take the posting of the restrictions as an official NESFA announcement. While the text is what's happening, they were not posted by NESFA, and were posted without giving NESFA any opportuinity to attempt to explain why they were necessary. tyg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 13 Apr 87 1119-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #147 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Apr 87 1119-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #147 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 13 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 147 Today's Topics: Books - Lessing (3 msgs) & McCaffrey & Moorcock (5 msgs) & Feminist Writers (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Apr 87 21:23:00 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!retief@rutgers.edu Subject: Lessing, any-one? Who has heard of Doris Lessing? It's a curious thing. I have for a couple of years now seen her work classified as both Fiction Proper and Science Fiction in the book-stores and libraries. After reading a reasonable amount of it, I am impressed by her depth of thought and ability to synthesize interesting stories from existing mythologies. It seems, however, that few people know of her. Some of her books are _The Temptation of Jack Orkney_, _The Summer After the Dark_, _The Golden Note Book_, _Memoir of a Survivor_, and the _Canopus in Argos: Archives_ series (_Shikasta_, _The Marriages between Zones Three, Four, and Five_, _The Sentimental Agents_). The series and _Memoir_ are definitely science fiction; I have not read the first two so I do not know what they are. It seems that with all the discussion recently about what is 'innovative' on this group that here is an example of just that. In her _Archives_ series, Lessing explores some reasons for the existence of religions, explanations of pre-historical events (Stonehenge's reasons for existence are implied), and offers predictions of what is to happen in this planet's near future. She also explores all manner of metaphysical stuff, touching on the nature of Good and Evil, inter-personal relationships, what happens in small groups under pressure (ala Herbert, although with a different slant from his _Under Pressure_ [title? Could also be _Dragon in the Deep_. I digress]). She does all of her exploration within a framework (or, perhaps, based on it) of Science Fiction. The same sort of exploration goes in to _Memoir_, although not on quite as ambitious a scale. (Side note: If you pick up _Memoir_, look for an interesting literary 'trick' in regards to how Lessing treats the narrator. It caught me off guard. I'm still wondering what the significance was...) Anyhow, to my point: has anyone else in the world read these books, especially the _Canopus in Argos:Archives_ series? I've seen the latter on people's book-shelves, but no-one I know has read them. ihnp4!bradley!retief ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 00:26:27 GMT From: maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak) Subject: Re: Lessing, any-one? Doris Lessing is a WONDERFUL writer, although to many of us old-time fans the Canopus in Argos series was a bit of a surprise at first. She'd hinted at some SF-type goings on in a couple of her earlier books (The Four-Gated City, I think, was one), but had never gone full-bore into it. Lessing is a feminist in philosophy without being a political feminist. In fact I've read interviews with her where she claims to be amazed that her books were seized upon by the feminist movement and waved like flags. Lessing writes about PEOPLE; what goes on inside them, between them, how they create their lives. She started out writing about Rhodesia (The Grass is Singing), then moved on to England and finally to the civilizations out in the stars. Keep reading her stuff. If you're a woman, the older you get the more you appreciate it. If you're a man, you may learn some things about how the other side thinks. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 87 03:20:24 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Lessing, any-one? >Anyhow, to my point: has anyone else in the world read these books, >especially the _Canopus in Argos:Archives_ series? I've seen the >latter on people's book-shelves, but no-one I know has read them. I read the first three books in the series several years ago. By and large they were moderately disappointing, although the second one was somewhat entertaining. These books are the kind that drive the genre-definers mad. Although the subject matter is ostensibly science fiction (aliens determining the development of man), the treatment is what I might label "modernist fantasy"-- it isn't what we've come to recognize as fantasy either, although it has plenty of fantastic elements. I can't really recommend these books. In a lot of ways they are really backward; if they had come out in 1950 they would have been radical, but now they might be called bourgeois new-age. THe first book in particular suffers from a severe case of overwriting and This Is Serious Stuff, Folks syndrome telegraphed just everywhere. Readers of other Lessing might be interested in these books. SF-lovers will problably not recognize them as SF and would probably be served better by reading Lessing's other (and presumably superior) works. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 03:58:56 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Lengths of turns (was and naming children on Pern) allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >Who cares, anyway? If Earth people aren't going to have any >contact with the Pernese, why does it matter how the lengths of >years compare? Pern is consistent with itself; that's all I ask. There are probably other reasons, but the first that enters my mind is story-writing. How much can happen in one year? How many months are there in the year (important for dating things and coordinating them with other writers...)? Etc. Sure, it's trivial stuff. But if you're going to be involved in working with the world, you might as well try to do it right. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 14:01:33 GMT From: mtune!houxa!acd@rutgers.edu (A.DURSTON) Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock twd@osupyr.UUCP (The Twid) writes: > First of all, Trivia. > Michael Moorcock wrote the lyrics to the sone 'Veteran of the >Psychic Wars' by Blue Oyster Cult (off of 'Heavy Metal' movie. In case your interested... He also co-wrote 'The Great Sun Jester' on Mirrors and 'Black Blade' [ about what else Elric and Stormbringer ] on Cultosaurus Erectus. Have a nice one, A.C.Durston ihnp4!houxa!acd ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 16:50:27 GMT From: ames!pyramid!scdpyr!faulkner@rutgers.edu (Bill Faulkner) Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock twd@osupyr.UUCP (The Twid) writes: > First of all, Trivia. > Michael Moorcock wrote the lyrics to the sone 'Veteran of the >Psychic Wars' by Blue Oyster Cult (off of 'Heavy Metal' movie. Gee, I didn't know that, thanks for the info. >Could someone tell me what Moorcock has done since the Elric >Series?? This is far from a complete list and I am not sure when he wrote all of it in relation to the Elric Series. Also, I am doing this from memory, so please excuse any mistakes and/or oversimplification. The RuneStaff Series consists of four books detailing the adventures of Dorian Hawkmoon (One of the Eternal Champions). The action takes place in a fantasy (and possibly post-holocast) Europe. The evil empire of Gran Briton (sp?) is trying to take over the world with a their sorccerous technology. Very Good and Highly recommended. The Count Brass Series has three books about the life of Count Brass. Count Brass is not an Eternal Champion, but rather a character from the Runestaff series. I have not read it yet, but if it is anything like the Runestaff series, it should be good. The Chronicles of Corum and the Swords Trilogy follows the like of Corum of the Scarlet Robe (or at least I think that is his title). Both the Chronicles and the Swords Trilogy consists of three books each, but each was also published as a single volume. The series follows the trials and tribulations of Corum, who is the last of his race (I forget his race, but during a trip to Earth, he is refered to as an Elf). Lots of nice suffering, a la Elric and is very solidly written. An interesting feature is the retelling of a scene from the Elric series, from Corum's perspecive. Overall, it is very similiar to the Elric series. Highly Recommended The Silver Warriors (I think that is the title) is about yet another Eternal Champion, this time in a world of snow and ice. It has some nice political intrigue but overall it is not up to Moorcocks usual standard. Gloriana (SP?) is a very long novel (~400 pages) for Moorcock. I have not read it, but know it is a fantasy and others have told me that they really like it. Elric at the End of Time is really a collection of short stories, including Elric at the End of Time (of course). It seems that the publishers wanted to cash in on the Elric name, and put this piece together. One interesting thing is the publication of Moorcock's first Eternal Champion story. It's not bad, but rather amateurish. Not Recommended, except for historical curiosity. Then there is Jerry Cornelius, the strangest of all of the Eternal Champions. There are currently 3 Chronicles of Jerry Cornelius available. The Jerry Cornelius (JC for short) stories are highly experimental and strange. JC is the Eternal Champion for a slightly modified, modern day earth. These stories can be quite hard to follow, since Moorcock does deal with trivial things like plot in most of these stories. They are a triumph of style over form. Some people love it, others will hate it. If you can deal with stream of conscience writing, go ahead and try it. If you really need a plot to follow, better skip this one. Ther Great Rock and Roll Swindle is a film about and primarily by the Sex Pistols, the inventors of punk rock. Moorcock was commissioned to write the book, after the movie was done, and as a result it doesn't even resemble the movie, except in the crudest manner. All comments about the Cornelius books apply here (JC even makes a guest shot in this book). It is rather amusing and funny, if you know something about the Sex Pistols. (Malcom still has all the money). This list basically covers the books that I know about. I have tried to just give a little bit of the overall story line of each book, so as not to ruin any of the plots. There are also many more stories that MM has written, but I am unfamiliar with them. Fortunately, the book companies have been re-releasing his works and I know that all of the above (except for the Great Rock and Roll Swindle, which is only available in England) is currently being printed. This is real nice, since I spent about 4 months looking for all 4 books in the Runestaff series. Personally, I really enjoy reading Moorcock and consider him to be one of the best SF/Fantasy writers of the 70's. Enjoy Bill Faulkner Nat'l Center for Atmospheric Research PO Box 3000 Boulder, CO 80307-3000 303-497-1259 UUCP: faulkner@scdpyr.UUCP hao!scdpyr!faulkner INTERNET: faulkner@scdpyr.ucar.edu ARPA: faulkner%ncar@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Apr 87 02:37:32 PST From: mkao@pnet01.CTS.COM (Mike Kao) To: crash!sf-lovers@rutgers.arpa@nosc.mil Subject: Moorcock! All right! Michael Moorcock is one of my favorite authors! Here's my list of books I've read by him: Elric series: 1-7, about the albino sorceror/emperor and his sword Stormbringer. Corum series: 1-6, about the last of the Vadagh--Prince Corum Jhaelen Irsei. He sword is Traitor. Hawkmoon series: 1-7, split into Runestaff series (1-4) and the Count Brass series (1-3), about Duke Dorian Hawkmoon von Koln. Yet another aspect of the Champion Eternal. Erekose series: 1-2, split into _The Eternal Champion_ (about John Daker/Erekose) and _The Silver Warriors_ (about Erekose/Urlik Skarsol). These are the books I've read. They are ALL about the Champion Eternal. The other books remaining are the Cornelius series, and _Gloriana_, a boring romance... Mike Kao UUCP: {akgua,hp-sdd!hlpabs,sdcsvax,nosc}!crash!pnet01!mkao ARPA: crash!pnet01!mkao@nosc.arpa INET: mkao@pnet01.CTS.COM ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 87 05:33:01 GMT From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion Books Let's see. In the Eternal Champion cycle, Moorcock has written the following series, which can be enjoyed in any order. They cross over in bizarre ways; there are at least two scenes which are found in two novels each, from different points of view. Elric of Melnibone: 1 Elric of Melnibone 2 Sailor on the Seas of Fate (which crosses over with # 22, below) 3 Weird of the White Wolf 4 The Vanishing Tower (x-over w/ # 9, below) 5 Bane of the Black Sword 6 Stormbringer (which has a slight x-over with #22) Prince Corum of the Scarlet Robe The Swords Trilogy 7 The Knight of the Swords 8 The Queen of the Swords 9 The King of the Sword The Chronicles of Corum 10 The Bull and the Spear 11 The Oak and the Ram 12 The Sword and the Stallion (which leads in to #22, below) The History of the Runestaff (Hawkmoon) 13 The Jewel in the Skull 14 The Mad God's Amulet 15 The Sword of the Dawn 16 The Runestaff (which leads into #19, below) John Daker/Erekose 17 The Eternal Champion (the first written) 18 The Silver Warriors (Phoenix in Obsidian) (which leads into #23 and #19) 19 The Dragon in the Sword After this, things get more complex. The Eternal Champion is an archetype. All of these major protagonists are the Eternal Champion, though most of them only have a dim awareness of this link, an awareness which becomes much more pronounced whenever they meet. John Daker/Erekose is an aspect of the Champion who is cursed with knowledge of his nature, although it is an incomplete knowledge. All of Moorcock's fantasy work (and most of his SF work) is at least peripherally tied in with the cycle. Jerry Cornelius is an SF version of the archetype, who dies and is reborn repeatedly, in very curious (and largely incomprensible) ways. The cycle concludes in The Chronicles of Castle Brass 20 Count Brass 21 The Champion of Garathorm 22 The Quest for Tanelorn This series follows Hawkmoon, after the events of the History of the Runestaff series (see above), and closes off the Eternal Champion cycle. It is the best written of all of these works, and it is worth reading this last. Note that Moorcock and Howard Chaykin collaborated on a graphic novel (aka comic book, for those less enlightened members of the reading public) entitled 23 _The Flowers of Heaven, the Swords of Hell_ Which bridges the gap between _The Silver Warriors_ and _Quest for Tanelorn_ for the John Daker/Erekose character. However, _The Silver Warriors_ *also* leads directly into _Dragon in the Sword_. Read _Dragon_ for a better explanation. Kevin J. Maroney mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 17:23:43 GMT From: ee171aai@sdcc13.ucsd.EDU (Lost All Hope) Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock "The Warhound and the World's Pain" is a very good book written in the vein of the Eternal Champion (Though it is only indirectly related to these.) ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 87 02:58:58 GMT From: harvard!linus!watmath!looking!brad@rutgers.edu Subject: Feminist Writers James Tiptree, Jr.: For a man, he writes really good feminist fiction. Andre Norton: Man, does this guy really understand female viewpoints. Piers Anthony: Another good writer with strong female heros. .... etc. ...." (probably didn't get this one word for word, but it was the classic hoax that evoked tremendous response.) Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 87 18:58:40 GMT From: mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu (Kevin J. Mayville) Subject: Re: Feminists >"Feminist writers: >James Tiptree, Jr.: For a man, he writes really good feminist >fiction. >Andre Norton: Man, does this guy really understand female >viewpoints. He would probably be even better without that annoying problem of being FEMALE! Kevin mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 13 Apr 87 1155-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #148 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Apr 87 1155-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #148 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 13 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 148 Today's Topics: Films - Aliens & Japanimation & Neuromancer (2 msgs) & Star Wars (7 msgs) & A Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Apr 87 23:11:31 GMT From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: More Aliens Cyberma@UMass.BITNET writes: > where was the Nostromo coming from with its cargo of crude oil? > They were obvioulsy very far out, since: > 1. It would take them 10 months to get home in hyperdrive > 2. They had not even reached the fringe of human civilization yet > 3. No one had ever seen anything like the derelict spacecraft before > So where were they coming from at the beginning of ALIEN? Any ideas? Hmm. Why was crude oil even wanted? You might be able to make some guesses about the underlying society from this. Presumably, hyperdrive is slow (10c, perhaps?). So it takes a long time to get somewhere. Presumably, oil-bearing planets are relatively rare. At the time of the film, Earth can no longer be counted as an oil-bearing planet. Government (such as it is) seems to be such that a company can lay claim to an entire planet. The situation appears to be somewhat similar to Poul Andersons Polysotechnic (sp?) League stories--weak, ineffective government. Strong companies. Which may have some historical basis (I'm pretty weak here. Does the Hansa sound familiar?). It is possible that the company doesn't actually lay claim to the planet, but instead tries to keep its location a secret from other interested companies--not too hard to do, probably. So. You ought to have companies sending out scout craft to find planets to exploit. These planets will be well outside the borders of civilization. It is possible that the big companies have more or less well defined areas that they explore in (company X has an implicit claim to all stars within 10 degrees of Sirius as seen from the earth--something like that. Arrogant as hell, perhaps, but it seems possible. Until such time as some company makes a really profitable find, in which case all agreements are off). Back to why they wanted crude oil--almost certainly, not to burn. Too expensive for that (except maybe for a few company high muckymucks who want it for their antique cars and airplanes). More likely, they wanted it for plastics or perhaps for processing into food. david rickel decwrl!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Apr 87 17:20:50 PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: request for information I am working on a possible article for "Movement!" magazine, which is put out by the Kitty Animation Circle, 8-5 Yoyogi 1-Chome, Shibuya-ku, Tokyo-to 151, Japan. The topic of the article would be Japanimation fandom in the US. I am soliciting as much information from as many Japanimation fans as possible, particularly from fans of "Urusei Yatsura" and/or "Mezon Ikkoku" (KAC is the fan club for these series). I'm presently the only KAC member in the US; I know there's more "Urusei Yatsura" fans out there! Japanese KAC members would be interested in hearing about us! By the way, "Urusei Yatsura 5" will be delayed; it will not come out this summer as originally planned. This is because the plans for the movie have changed; it now will be called "Urusei Yatsura Final Story: Boy Meets Girl" and will be based on the final story in the comic books. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Apr 87 10:11:38 est From: John DeCarlo Subject: Neuromancer 'Movie' In response to the various inquiries about a possible new movie on _Neuromancer_, the following excerpts from the April 1987 Computer Language Magazine should prove enlightening. The article is entitled "Timothy Leary and the CyberPunks", by Craig LaGrow. "In Timothy Leary's opinion, computer programmers are the true 'CyberPunks' and the real heroes of today. The article then talks about how Leary likes programmers and hackers and how he is getting involved in various software projects with Activision. "Leary is also in the midst of developing a series of software programs called Mind Movies. 'In my software movies, you decide on who the hero will be and what attributes he or she will have. The script keeps coming up and you have choices. At the end, the movie is your unique version of the book. ...' "Novelist William Burroughs is working with Leary on the script for the first Mind Movie, which is based on William Gibson's book _Neuromancer_, about a CyberPunk computer kid. Keith Haring, a graffiti artist, is doing much of the graphics, Helmut Newton the still photography, and New Wave rock group Devo the soundtrack." Now don't ask me how Devo will record the soundtrack on a software program, but that's just technology application I guess. So, if you hear that Tim Leary is doing a movie on _Neuromancer_, you will know what is meant. John DeCarlo M14051%mwvm@mitre.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 14:37:00 GMT From: pyrnj!datacube!will@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: _Neuromancer_ Movie? I saw some interesting computer graphics flashing by on the T.V. for approximately 15 seconds or so and then the word Neuromancer for about 5 seconds and that's it. This was about ten days ago in what I assume was an advanced "ad" that played on MTV. At least I think I saw it. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 20:15:47 GMT From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars vince@hi.UUCP (Vince Murphy) writes: >> Has anyone ever compiled a list of all of the elements of STAR >> WARS that are lifted virtually intact from other sources? I > I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the scene where Luke >finds his uncle and aunt smoldering is a quote from The Searchers. >Also, the final scene of the heroes getting their medals is from >the Nazi propaganda film Triumph of the Will. Let's see. I agree completely with the original poster who said that Lucas was "heavily inspired" by the Fourth World comics of Jack Kirby (these are the first comics I can remember reading)--they include _Forever People_, _Mir. Miracle_, _Jimmy Olsen_, and (most importantly), _New Gods_. These titles were published by DC Comics in the very early 70's, when Lucas was a college student and (by his own admission) reading lots o' comics. They do include "the Source", Darkseid and his ferocious good-guy son, Orion, a wise-old-wizard archetype, and sundry other _Star Wars_ elements. I've been told that the names (Obi-wan, Vader) come from some Mesopotamian mythology that Lucas studied in college. I'd heard that the "return to find smouldering bodies" is from _My Darling Clementine_, not _The Serchers_. The raid on the Death Star is apparently very close to the climax of _The Dam Busters_. I believe it was Samuel Delany who pointed out the similarities between the awards ceremony and _Triumph of the Will_, in a review which centered on the explicit racism of the first film. (Note that when a black man is introduced, Lando, he's a traitor.) Most important of all is Akira Kurosawa's first film, an epic entitled _The Hidden Fortress_. This wonderful film introduces R2D2 and C3PO, who are soldiers who get caught in a plot to smuggle gold from a hidden castle to the ancestral home of the princess of the castle. There's a lengthy spear-fighting scene that was clearly the inspiration for the Vader-Kenobi duel. Lucas has called this his major source of inspiration for the film, and I highly recommend it to all and sundry, even if you don't like _Star Wars_ much (or at all). Any movie buffs who can help find other sources for scenes of the film (especially cinematic sources; content sources are plentiful), please post. It might be easier to list which parts of _Star Wars: The New Hope_ were original with Lucas :-). Kevin J. Maroney mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 21:05:48 GMT From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!goudreau@rutgers.edu (Bob Goudreau) Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars kjm@dg_rtp.UUCP (Kevin Maroney) writes: >I believe it was Samuel Delany who pointed out the similarities >between the awards ceremony and _Triumph of the Will_, in a review >which centered on the explicit racism of the first film. (Note that >when a black man is introduced, Lando, he's a traitor.) Just a minute - could you refresh me as to the "explicit racism" of the first film (Episode IV, "A New Hope")? My recollections of the original _Star_Wars_ include no incidents that could be construed as explicitly racist; indeed no non-Caucasian humans even appear in that film. (Perhaps this could be implicit racism.) As for other implicit racism (Darth Vader, the bad guy, in black), what about the storm troopers? They were bad guys in white. What about the inter-species nature of many groups, such as Han&Chewbacca, riff-raff at the bar, Jabba & friends? These are examples of members of many species being on both sides. Are there some implicitly racist scenes which I have missed or forgotten? As for Lando (not introduced until the *second* film, btw), remember that he winds up being a loyal ally for the end of _The_Empire_Strikes_Back_ and for all of _Return_of_the_Jedi_. And be not too quick to judge him a traitor. Even Han Solo was about to turn his back on his friends in _A_New_Hope_; his actions then seem even less loyal than Lando's (Han just wanted to take his money and run; Lando was basically being coerced). Bob Goudreau Data General Corp. 62 Alexander Drive Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 (919) 248-6231 mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!goudreau ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 02:25:40 GMT From: cmcl2!lanl!hc!hi!vince@rutgers.edu (Vince Murphy [Alien]) Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars Remember that racism is not only directed towards blacks. In Star Wars, the robots are treated as inferiors (calling Luke "Master") and the like. Also, Chewbaca seems little more than a slave to Han. Hell, he doesn't even get a medal at the end (and it wasn't because he was too tall). The racism in Star Wars is quite explicit with statements like "I can't abide those Jawas" (as C3PO says). And implicit (see robot stuff above). As far as Luke's uncle and aunt's death scene, it does have some elements of "Clementine" in it, but I believe Lucas said it was a "steal" from the Searchers. Actually, I don't think Lucas has an original bone in his body. Vincent J. Murphy hi!vince@hc.dspo.gov University Of New Mexico ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 21:53:32 GMT From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_ajbh@rutgers.edu (JABBA the HUT) Subject: In case they do make SW-I I watched Return of the Jedi on cable recently. If Lucas is planning to do another Star Wars movie. I have a few words for him. (in my best Sam Kinnison delivery) USE CREATURES AND ALIENS THAT DON'T LOOK LIKE REJECTS FROM TOYS-R-US THIS TIME!!!!!!! For ROTJ they must have used up the free worlds supply of naugahyde. I swear that I have seen several of the aliens on the muppet show. Especially bad were the guards on Tattoine and Landos (no ticki no washi) copilot. The other safety tip I would have for LUCAS is (again reverting to Kinison) DON'T MAKE THE STORY SO DIGUSTINGLY CUTE THIS TIME!!!! Ewoks indeed. On a last note. I thought that I remembered JABBA saying to Luke Streetwalker the line "I was killing your kind before you were born." but it wasn't on the HBO version. Am I thinking of the book? jim ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 13:10:49 GMT From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars kjm@dg_rtp.UUCP (Kevin Maroney) writes: > I'd heard that the "return to find smouldering bodies" is from _My > Darling Clementine_, not _The Serchers_. Having recently seen both these films in a class on John Ford, I have to say that the scene is from _The Searchers_, not _My Darling Clementine_. Many directors today, according to my professor, acknowledge _The Searchers_ as their favorite film, including George Lucas. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 18:59:40 GMT From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@rutgers.edu (Christopher Russell) Subject: Re: In case they do make SW-I (Get a Real Planet!) ins_ajbh@jhunix.UUCP (JABBA the HUT) writes: >I watched Return of the Jedi on cable recently. If Lucas is >planning to do another Star Wars movie. I have a few words for him. >(in my best Sam Kinnison delivery) > While we're screaming at Lucas to get his act together, how about telling him to GET A REAL PLANET! Come on! First, it was the DESERT planet of Tatooine, then it was the ICE planet Hoth, then it was the FOREST moon of Endor! Please! You would think the entire universe was filled with single-terrain planets. What's next? The Ocean planet? The Very-Muddy planet? The Asphalt-paved planet? Chris Russell Arpa: russell@king.ee.umd.edu UUCP: ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell Jnet: russell@umcincom Fone: (301)454-8886/454-8950 Computer Aided Design Lab University of Maryland ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 06:50:01 GMT From: mvs@meccsd.MECC.COM (Michael V. Stein) Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars trash@oliveb.UUCP (Tom Repa) writes: >I think the best reference for where George got the ideas for Star >Wars is "Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell. He is >(was?) a anthropologist (socialoligist?psychologist?) who studied >the myths of more cultures on this planet then I knew existed. He >codified them into a concise "myth cycle" which summed up the basic >plot of all adolescent -> adult "Hero" myths. The director of the Mad Max movies has said in interviews that he was also highly influenced by "The Hero with a Thousand Faces". Michael V. Stein Minnesota Educational Computing Corporation - Technical Services UUCP ihnp4!meccts!mvs ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 87 18:30:01 GMT From: seismo!bdmrrr!potomac!jtn@rutgers.edu (John T. Nelson) Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Mumblings (Question, Best American Actors) danny@itm.UUCP (Danny) writes: > Just some random thoughts that made themselves known today, > during my perusal of .movies.... > > I've a few nagging scenes from a mostly forgotten B science > fiction movie that I'd like to know the title of... Perhaps someone out there can help ME with a movie that I recall seeing on television in my childhood. It was previous to 1968 (arprox 1966) and none of my friends who are movie and SF buffs are able to identify it. Are you up to a challenge? Can you identify THIS movie from my rather sketchy and obtuse description? The film featured a giant super-duper computer called "The Unitron." The name alone dates the film. After its activation, people are found dead. MURDERED! But by whom (or what?). I distinctly recall the image of one dead person found underneath a door with the pneumatically controlled door still banging up and down on top of him (or her). Pretty grisly huh? At the end of the movie the scientists gathered around the main console of the Unitron (with Irwin Allen blinky lights in the background) for the final whodoneit scene. One of the scientists announces that he knows who the murderer is and it ISN'T the machine. Better yet the machine knows and will now tell us all, and the typewriter style console prints out the name of the scientist that did the dirty work. That's it. Can YOU name this movie? John T. Nelson Advanced Decision Systems 1500 Wilson Blvd #600 Arlington, VA 22209-2401 (703) 243-1611 UUCP: seismo!{sundc,doqlci}!potomac!jtn Internet: jtn@ads.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 14 Apr 87 0843-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #149 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Apr 87 0843-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #149 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 149 Today's Topics: Books - McCaffrey & Wyndham (2 msgs) & Magic Shop Stories (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Apr 87 02:58:08 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Anne McCaffrey From: Gleep? <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET> >>I would like to hear if anyone else thought that _Moreta_ was the >>best Pern book or not. > >I think I agree with that. The ending certainly made it one of the >most memorable. _Moreta_ differed from the other books in the Pern >cycle - I'm not quite sure how to characterize the differences. It >was certainly shorter, and, I think, more focused. The other books >have several "main" characters - _Moreta_ only has one. You get >very involved with her, which makes the ending more intense. I >also really enjoyed _Nerilka_ - you see the events in _Moreta_ from >a different viewpoint. Though I enjoyed the story and characters, I thought MORETA was poorly written; the first paragraph of the book, alone, is terrible and, unfortunately, a good example of what the rest of the book was like. I just read NERILKA two days ago, and found it to be extremely dull and uninspiring. I could IMAGINE sympathizing with the character, and her situation reminded me of parts of the Harperhall books, but I didn't really FEEL anything all through the reading, except the chapter in which Moreta goes *between* - but then, my feelings then were carrying over from my reading of MORETA. I was also disappointed to find that I had paid $5.50 (can., mind you) for a short story; I gather the mega-bucks were for the illustrations - which were as dull and uninspiring as the story, and incorrect to boot. All the way through the book, Nerilka relates her story with suggestions that the events caused or were caused by great changes - or even not-so-great changes - in her character. We are TOLD that there is character development. But I didn't see any of that in the actual story. I did once hear something about NERILKA being unfinished when it went to print; apparently, McCaffrey had only completed the DRAFT, but her agent picked it up and sold it. Yes? No? Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 87 03:23:06 -0700 From: Alastair Milne To: Mordecai Golin Subject: Re: Story Request - The Handmaid's Tale > Discussing Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tail" reminded me of >some feminist Science Fiction I read years ago. Specifically there >is a story whose title I can't remember but would like to recommend >to some friends. The plot concerns a woman from our time whose >mind travels to a future where there are no men. The body she >inhabits (at least part of the time) belongs to another woman whose >sole purpose in this new order is to carry babies. It is possible, >but not very likely, that the author was Joanna Russ. Sounds to me like John Wyndham's "Consider Her Ways". I don't think you would say it was feminist -- in fact, when she is finally able to return (and I forget both the mechanisms of going and returning) she was willing to be imprisoned for arson or even murder to prevent the discovery that was to cause the extinction of men. It is true, of course, the all functions in the future society, including those we think of as typically male, were performed by women. As you describe, the body to which she comes is of a Mother, a class of huge women whose sole duty is to bear babies. I recall distinctly her disgust with the size of the meals she was served, and her surprise when the body ate them willingly. Like most John Wyndham's, a good story, well written in a clear, unassuming fashion. Hope you can find it. Alastair Milne Educational Technology Center, UCal Irvine ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 87 03:49:16 -0700 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Post - End of the World stories One powerful story set after the end of the world ("post-holocaust" if you must, though I think that misuses the word "holocaust") which I think receives too little attention is John Wyndham's "the Chrysalids" (also published as "Rebirth"). This a moving, even tearing story about a group of children growing to young adulthood in a future evidently millenia after what were obviously global nuclear wars. Nobody now actually knows what happened, but they believe it to be the Tribulation (always capitalised) sent by God to punish humanity. In its aftermath the moral "Blessed is the Norm" is the strongest of religious teachings. Every animal, whether stock or pet, is examined at birth for any deviations from the norm dictated for its kind; only when none is found is the birth acknowledged. If any is found, the animal is destroyed. Although one would like to think this treatment is reserved for animals and plants, it is effectively also true for humans. A mutated human is a Blasphemy, and the mother who bears one may be punished. Seasons are considered good or bad by their rate of "clean" progeny, and it is observed that when the wind is in the southwest, the rate of Deviations and Blasphemies goes up badly. But it is not the fault of the examiner that the narrator and his friends were determined to be normal. No examination he could have made would have told him otherwise. And it is sheer terrible luck that the narrator's own father, the head of a farming household in "Lab" (probably Labrador) is the loudest and most fearsome zealot in the district. The contrasts of characters, the genuine affections and deep loves, the shocks and plot twists, and the strong empathy that arises with the narrator and his friends make this a strong story well worth reading. John Wyndham's style is as clean and unobtrusive as ever. Somebody once posted a message to sf-lovers suggesting that a measure of good writing is that the story seem to flow of its own accord, without the reader being conscious of the medium. If so, and I certainly think it is, then Wyndham may considered a very good writer. He has always been one of my favourites. Read it, if you can find it, and see if you don't agree! Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 87 16:30:09 GMT From: rael@ihlpa.ATT.COM (r.pietkivitch) Subject: Re: Magical Shop stories williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes: > I am looking for stories that take place in, or are about, one of > those magical shops full of interesting things, that appears out > of nowhere. You know the type. Usually there is a wizened old > shopkeeper who sells or gives the unsuspecting visitor some > magical item that changes (or ruins) his or her life. If you know > of any, please email me the title and author. (I know Harlan > Ellison wrote a couple of them.) If anyone is interested, I can > post a list later. Thanks. Piers Anthony's "On A Pale Horse" comes to mind as one story that could fit into that discription. Although the book does not dwell for very long in the Shop it sets the stage for the rest of the story. Overall, I found the book easy to second guess. The charactors for me are too generalized and I didn't really care for the religious implications or overtones... Perhaps this is why I never did read the rest of this series. However, Anthony's "A Spell For Chameleon" series I _really_ enjoyed, though it is more fantasy that science fiction. Bob Pietkivitch ihnp4!ihlpa!rael ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 87 22:29:03 GMT From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) Subject: Magical Shop results Here are the results of my request for Magical Shop stories. I tried to thank each person who responded individually, but sometimes the mail was returned, so I'll thank you now. (Thank you.) Anyway, here they are, with a description of each story by the person who sent it. (I haven't had a chance to look up exact authors, publishers, etc., when the sender didn't know them offhand.) From: Vicarious Oyster A.E. Van Vogt (sp?) wrote one or two of them (or a novella and a short story, or some such combination). _The Weapon Shops of Isher_ is a close approximation of the title(s). As far as local acquisition of said stories, I don't know; ten tears ago Pic-a-Book was a good source for SF, but it seems to specialize in porn and comic books now (>- sigh! -<). From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) My all time favorite, going back to when I first encountered it in grade three, is "The Ship that Flew", by Mary Norton. The wizened old shopkeeper has one eye -- turns out to be Odin. The model ship turns out to be Frey's Skimbladdr (spelling?). It grows to any needed size and travels through time and space. A children's book, but one of the best. From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) P.S. There is an anthology titled "Magic for Sale" -- a collection of just the stories you're looking for -- but the stories it contains are uniformly bad. From: seismo!sun!tomw@rsch.wisc.edu (Tom Westberg) It may not fit your requirements, but _The Neverending Story_ by Michael Ende begins with a rather mysterious book store, complete with a crusty old man whose mysterious book is too dangerous for the main character (a young boy) to read. From: dplatt@TEKNOWLEDGE-VAXC.ARPA (Dave Platt) "Shottle Bop", by the late, much-lamented Theodore Sturgeon, is my favorite in this genre. It appears in at least one of Sturgeon's collections (I think it's in "The Worlds Of..."). From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry) About six to twelve months ago there was a good story in Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine that was something like a magic shop story. Was called "Wu's Lost and Found Emporium" or some such. It certainly featured a shop full of strange things that appeared out of nowhere. From: seismo!decvax!LOCAL!reeves@rsch.wisc.edu (Jonathan Reeves) Not sure if this is close enough, but Isaac Asimov has written a number of "George and Azazel" short stories. Azazel is a hyper-intelligent demon from another universe (or something like that); George is a meddler and freeloader who summons Azazel to straighten out someone else's life. Azazel usually fulfills the letter of George's request, but with unintended (and amusing) results. They've been in a number of issues of Asimov's SF Mag. From: seismo!ukecc!anthony@rsch.wisc.edu There is a story in Ellison's book _Deathbird Stories_ that is along that theme. I can't think of the name of it, but a man goes into a shop trying to avoid the police and is sent, eventually, to a jungle where he finds Prometheus.(sp?) From: rael@ihlpa.ATT.COM (r.pietkivitch) Piers Anthony's "On A Pale Horse" comes to mind as one story that could fit into that description. Although the book does not dwell for very long in the Shop it sets the stage for the rest of the story. Overall, I found the book easy to second guess. The characters for me are too generalized and I didn't really care for the religious implications or overtones... Perhaps this is why I never did read the rest of this series. However, Anthony's "A Spell For Chameleon" series I _really_ enjoyed, though it is more fantasy that science fiction. From: seismo!weitek!sci!daver@rsch.wisc.edu (Dave Rickel) This will be almost no help, but--Isaac Asimov has been editing a bunch of story collections. One that appeared a few months ago has a title something like _7 Wishes_. Near the end of this is a short story where a mild-mannered sax player hocks his sax, and gets this carpetbag full of magic goodies. If no one else provides more info, send me mail and I can get the author and title (the author may be Ted Sturgeon or Robert Silverberg). I picked up a book of short stories by Henry Kuttner at a used book store. Inside this, there is a story (that was later made into a twilight zone episode) about a man who would give people what they needed. In the twilight zone episode, this man was a bummish-looking person who was selling knick- knacks out of a wooden tray he was carrying around. In the original, the man operated an establishment that looked a little more like a jewelry store. From: Rolf Howarth There was one of these (along with at least one of every other fantasy cliche :-) in "The Light Fantastic" by Terry Pratchett, the sequel to his amusing "Colour of Magic" book. In the 2nd or 3rd Thieve's World book there was a shop that appeared overnight and sold magical weapons, causing some chaos, but I don't remember which story. From: obrien@aero2.aero.org My librarian friend points out that Avram Davidson came out with a whole anthology of nothing but stories about magic shops. It's called MAGIC FOR SALE, and it's a 1983 Ace pb. From: "FOLSM2::MORGAN%sc.intel.com"@relay.cs.net One of the strongest sf novels in any category I read last year was Charles deLint's "MOONHEART". The discovery of a medicine bag in the shop (by the young heroine...the wizened guys show up later) opens the action out into "THE HOUSE" which in turn is a vehicle that transports a very motley crew into one of several otherworlds for a massive showdown with "THE EVIL POWERS". This otherworld is a kind of North American Indian Faerie, populated not only with shaman, and totem beasts, but displaced Celtic bards of yore. Very rich, and after the original "suspension of disbelief", the author's juxtaposition of scene's from modern Ottawa, with other dimensions keeps the action entirely "plausible" (no comic opera stuff with the bards & beasts...). The mode of inter-dimensional travel is mental, not mechanical, achieved by focusing from "the silences of the heart". Also enjoyed Marion Zimmer Bradley's "THE HOUSE BETWEEN THE WORLDS". From: Kevin Cherkauer I read a very good "magic shop" story called "Shottle Bop" ("Bottle Shop" with the first letters switched). It was in a collection of stories "by" Alfred Hitchcock, whatever that ever means. I think his was the only name attached to the book. Anyway, the name of the book was _I Want My Mummy_. From: Nick Fortune Fritz Lieber: Bazaar of the Bizarre - a Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser story It's in one of the Swords anthologies (don't know which one) Terry Pratchet: The Light Fantastic. There is such a shop in the story and you actually get an behind the scenes view of how they move it around. Alan Dean Foster: Spellsinger III - not a moving shop, but one where you can buy anything from any universe. Perhaps not what you are looking for. There is also a Hammer Horror film where the various frames are linked by such a sinister shop, but I can't for the life of me remember the title. From: PAOLINO%UMDC.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Dan Paolino) 'Explanations, Inc.' Nancy Kress Fantasy & Science Fiction July 1984 Karen Williams g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu williams@puff.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 87 03:25:28 GMT From: anthony@ukecc.engr.uky.csnet (Anthony Wilson) Subject: Re: Magical Shop stories There is a story in "The First Omni Book of Science Fiction" about a man who collects exotic pets. He goes into a shop where he buys "pets" called Sandkings. It might not be what you're looking for, but it's a very good story. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 14 Apr 87 0902-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #150 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Apr 87 0902-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #150 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 150 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Apr 87 14:30:48 GMT From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was Re: SnobCon) george@scirtp.UUCP (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.) writes: >So then, as a clarification, tyg said, >> Dan, I'm sorry to have to do this under this subject; I'd planned >> to incorporate what I'm about to say into a much longer article >> on Boskone and the way people are reacting to the changes. But >> your article was a reasonably considerate and well-written >> comment about how you don't like the "secret society" and >> "incestuous" attitudes that you perceive the committee having. >So I said, The perception is entirely correct and the >considerateness therefore entirely inappropriate. I guess its hard to argue about "incestuousness" since in this non-literal sense it comes in varous degrees. But "secret society" is nonsense. The Boskone policies were debated and voted on at an open NESFA meeting. Anyone who wants to get the minutes of the meetings and notices of upcoming meetings so they can attend them, etc., need only send $15 bucks to NESFA for a one year subscribing membership to get "Instant Message" (usually 23 issues a year) the NESFA newsletter. Once a member, you can also get and contribute to APA:NESFA if you like and that can be done by mail with NESFA providing repro at a reasonable rate. You would also get any issues of "Proper Boskonian", the club's fanzine, that come out. >> The only problem is that you've got it all wrong; at least the >> motivation behind the decisions made for next year. >The alleged motivations are of marginal relevance when the result >is that half the people who want to go get discriminated against, >and no attempt is made to ensure that the half that goes is a >representative sample of the whole. I am not sure exactly what you are saying here but its certainly true that NESFA voted about 9:1 to reject taking a representative sample and to endorse the rules for 1988 that had been writing up by the co-chairs of Boskone XXV. >Point 1: there is more than 1 hotel in Boston with a capacity of ~ >1800. Are any two (or three) such hotels near each other? Across >the street from each other? You could obviously just become a >distributed system. 1a: Its not so clear that you can get any hotel in Boston. If they check with the management of either the Sheraton or the Marriott, the last two hotels that held Boskones, they will get extremely negative reports. The probability of a hotel checking and/or believing the reports to be relavent is likely to be related to how close to down town they are. 1b: NESFA has no desire to keep going through hotels. Most everyone involved in running Boskone wants it changed so that hotels will want the convention back, as used to be true in the past. >Point 2: If the relevant sub-committee of NESFA won't do this >willingly, odds are that it will just be taken out of its hands: >any group of the discriminated-against with the requisite amount of >gumption and money is perfectly free to just stage a competing con. >That's what I meant by the subject header. You seem to have some feeling that NESFA would be opposed to other cons. Quite the opposite. Although, in its 20 year history, NESFA has only once been approached for help on a local con run by a different organization, it provided it quite gladly. You could probably get quite a bit of assistance, particularly for a con of different emphasis scheduled on the same weekend as Boskone. >> To conclude, I'll reiterate; Boskone attendance has to be cut by >> over half in one year, due to decisions by hotels, not the >> Boskone committee. They have *no* choice in this. >This is patently false. There is more than 1 small hotel in >Boston. A multiple hotel convention would have a different feel. Probably the only way to continue Boskone's growth would have been to move all functions and large parties into a convention complex, run shuttle busses, and scatter people in small numbers in hotels all over the city and out to route 128. Hopefully with only a small number of rooms per hotel, the hotels would not be disrupted enough to throw you out. It seems like there would be a lot of risk involved, a lot of additional facilities work, and a lot of praying that the unique 24 strain imposed by a 1987 Boskone style SF con would not get you thrown out of whatever convention complex you used. A final point: labeling the 1986 and 1987 Boskone policies "liberal" and the new 1988 Boskone policies "conservative" consider the following: with liberal policies, Boskone has suffered from increasing problems in terms of vandalism, non-member hangers on, and people uninterested in SF who are there for a weekend of free booze and parties. It has been kicked out of the two largest hotels in Boston, the only ones with over 1,000 rooms. Because of bad reports from these hotels, other hotels, even those that had good experiences with Boskone in the past, are in some cases reluctant to consider it. Yet, with all that, there has been an increasing criticism of NESFA from many Boskone attendees who want more liberal policies, policies that would clearly cause Boskone to be even worse from the point of view of hotel managers and those who think the convention is for those interested in Science Fiction. So its seems reasonable from the point of view of a NESFA member to think they have everything to lose by retaining liberal policies. It's just likely to cause the loss of more hotels while non-fans, feasting off of Boskone provided food and drink in the 24-hour con suite, between getting booze from free parties, heap more criticism on NESFA for not being liberal enough. Maybe the new rules for 1988 are a bit of an over-reaction but that seems like what you would expect under these circumstances. Donald E. Eastlake, III +1 617-492-8860 ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 05:17:01 GMT From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was Re: SnobCon) Well, I've tried to be polite, and think that mostly I've succeeded in trying to discuss why NESFA has taken the steps that they've taken. But, occasionally, one sentence can sum up an opinion about a posting quite well. George Greene, Jr. is a twit who doesn't have the slightest idea what he's talking about in regards to how to run an sf convention. Ah, but that felt good. To rebut his comments in order: (I'll use some paraphrases here; if you don't care to trust them, feel free to go back to the original article by Greene). 1) Greene states that a previous poster's perception of the Boskone committee having secret society and incestuous attitudes is entirely correct, without question. I seriously doubt that Greene knows any member of the Boskone committee from last year, or any Boston based member of NESFA. I know many of them. Based on that knowledge, I'm very sure of my opinion that this is not the attitude they are trying to convey. One must wonder how Greene obtained his unqualified opinion about this. Spirit messages perhaps? He then states: >The alleged motivations [behind the policies for the 1988 Boskone] >are of marginal relevance when the result is that half the people >who want to go get discriminated against, and no attempt is made >to ensure that the half that goes is a representative sample of >the whole. Huh? When the motivation is that there is no facility that is willing to have the con that's physically capable of having a con of greater than 2,000 attendance? I'd call that pretty relevant. While 4,500 people may "want to go" to next year's Boskone, that doesn't do much good when the facility can only hold 2,000 (or less). Wishing won't make it so. And one must also wonder how anyone could even *define* a representative sample of Boskone, much less figure out how to get that back next year. Besides, I, at least, can certainly do without the part of such a sample which consists of people coming solely for a drunken party. He then goes on to comment: >[The committee being forced to cut attendance due to lack of a >suitable facility] is untrue. People almost always have choices. >The only absolute requirements are that the con be about SF and be >held in Boston or Cambridge in spaces vaguely resembling hotels. >All other requirements are flexible. Oh, really? It'd be nice if these people had a place to sleep. Or is that covered under "vaguely resembling hotels"? Or a room large enough to hold several hundred people for panels. Etc. And "flexible". Such a lovely term. Which has a semantic content of about zero. Gee, based on this paragraph, we don't even need a Boskone committee or staff; that's a flexible requirement! Just everybody who'd like to go to a Boskone show up next President's Day weekend at the Sheraton and do a Boskone! Get real George. Have you ever even been to a large sf con (attendance over a 1000)? Have you ever been involved in organizing one? I doubt it. >Point 1: there is more than 1 hotel in Boston with a capacity of ~ >1800. Are any two (or three) such hotels near each other? Across >the street from each other? You could obviously just become a >distributed system. Well, George almost manages to make sense here. If this had been written as a constructive suggestion, I would've responded much more politely. But George is just *so* sure of how obvious this is... No, they can't just become a distributed system. Did you know that the wind chill factor during this year's Boskone was constantly subzero Farenheit? I don't think many people would have been willing to move back and forth a lot in those conditions. And before George or anyone mentions moving to summer, well, Boston is very popular for conventions. Particularly during the summer, as opposed to winter. Hotels are quite probably booked for several years in advance for the warmer months. Distributed large cons have been tried before (mostly at Worldcons). With the exception of this year's Atlanta Worldcon, (where the hotels were across a 4 lane street from each other), it's never really worked successfully to my knowledge. Hell, you don't even know if there's such a geographic situation, but you're already willing to tell NESFA what's obvious. Well, what's obvious to me, as someone who's helped organize large sf cons, is that in addition to fighting low temperatures, you'll have even more problems with people wandering around doing vandalism and the like. Spreading a con over 2 or 3 hotels would probably increase the load on an already strained con committee more exponentially than linearly. There are other problems which I can go into if there's enough demand; most of them are a bit esoteric and probably not of general interest. A quick obvious one is that you'll probably need larger spaces for the art show, huckster's room, and large program items than any single small hotel would have available. >Point 2: If the relevant sub-committee of NESFA won't do this >willingly, odds are that it will just be taken out of its hands: >any group of the discriminated-against with the requisite amount of >gumption and money is perfectly free to just stage a competing con. Well, fine. Let "them" go ahead. Gee, funny how no one who's complaining so loudly about the situation is volunteering to do that. Any group that tries to do a 4,000 person con will run into exactly the same problems that NESFA ran into when they tried to schedule next year's Boskone. And based on NESFA's well-deserved reputation in fandom for running the best organized conventions, I predict a major disaster for any inexperienced group of people who tries to do so. Convention running is *work*, particularly *large* convention running. Any group that tries to do a 4,000 person con as their first attempt is asking for disaster. Finally, responding to my comments: >> To conclude, I'll reiterate; Boskone attendance has to be cut by >> over half in one year, due to decisions by hotels, not the >> Boskone committee. They have *no* choice in this. George states: >This is patently false. There is more than 1 small hotel in >Boston. Sorry. George's statement is the one that is false. He's made some assumptions that he takes to be facts, without having any experience to back them up with. >Sam Brown's Law: >Never offend people with style when you can offend them with >substance. Amusing. George's style is to be offensive and his substance consists of figments of an inexperienced imagination. tyg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Apr 87 14:34:26 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Boskone To: dee@CCA.CCA.COM From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) > Gee, lots of other people who contribute to this group seem to > think that basing anything on money spent or the like is highly > discriminatory and elitist. Well, I am not sure just what is meant by discriminatory and elitist in this context. In the sense that 1500+ people who want to attend will not be allowed to attend, SOME form of "discrimination" is needed. I think the fairest way to do this is to let each person decide for himself how much attending Boskone is worth to him. Isn't this at least as fair as "discriminating" against people who have not attended three Boskones (I have attended two) and who have not purchased any art (I would have, had I known it was necessary to get into the next Boskone - I did spend about $200 on books), etc? > [An auction] does not work very well due to problems with hotel > reservations, travel plans, and just plans in general. It would > bias things towards those with lots of idle time who would not > care if they did not know what they were doing that weekend until > just a month or two before. True. But so does the present system. I don't fit into any of the approved categories, so I don't know whether I will be allowed to attend, and it isn't clear when I will find out. It would be best if NESFA had a good idea just how many people would want to attend at each possible membership price. They could then set the price to whatever 2000 people are willing to pay. An auction is one way of finding out, but has the disadvantage you mentioned. Another approach is to simply ask everyone how much they are willing to pay. A disadvantage of this is that people may tend to understate. One cure for this is to not allow people in who claim they are now willing to pay more than they said they were. Is it certain that Boskone must be made smaller? What about multiple adjacent small hotels, or a cruise ship, or an outdoor con? (If held outdoors, it should be moved from February, of course.) >> I for one am tired of being made to feel guilty for not offering >> to help out. > I don' know how anyone can make you feel guilty if you are not so > inclined. Most people who work on the convention do so because > they enjoy doing it, in one way or another, rather than because of > some feeling of guilt. I do not feel guilty. I do feel unwelcome. I am now told I am not allowed to attend the next con for any amount of money because I did NOT help out at the last one. It was never my understanding that I was supposed to. If someone enjoys it, more power to them, but I enjoy panel sessions, buying books, and conversation. That is what I paid for and that is what I got. I would like to do it again next year but I am being told I am not welcome. I don't like high prices any more than anyone else, but of what use is an inexpensive con to one who is forbidden to attend it? Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 14 Apr 87 0924-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #151 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Apr 87 0924-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #151 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 151 Today's Topics: Books - Humorous SF (8 msgs) & Requests (3 msgs) & Some Answers (3 msgs) & Interview Excerpt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Apr 87 12:58 EDT From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Humourous SF If you're interested in humourous SF, I can recommend a couple of British novels by the author Terry Pratchet. The first is called _The_Color_of_Magic_ and is written in a style similar to Adams, and I can't remember the name of the second. The first is available in paperback, but I don't think the other has been published here in the states yet. They are both absolutely hilarious, however. Keith ------------------------------ Date: FRIDAY 04/10/87 12:16:51 PST From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO@POMONA> Subject: Re; Funny SF Hmm... I didn't find the Myth series trite, as they are intended as a spoof of a certain type of book 'Mentor and Sidekick' that is pervasive in many genres... but that's personal taste; I don't happen to like Doug Adams. With that warning, there is a series of short stories, written by Isaac Asimov that appeared (where else) in Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine. I refer to them as the 'George and Azazel' stories, since they deal with a human named George and his extradimensional aquaintance, Azazel, whose powers in HIS dimension aren't quite what they should be, while in our dimension they are quite impressive. Due to Azazel's imperfect understanding and our imperfect desires, the changes Azazel makes lead to some unexpected and funny situations. This isn't knee-slapping-rolling-on-the-floor stuff, but definitely amusing. George Madison ------------------------------ From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Humourous SF Date: 10 Apr 87 20:16:23 GMT An absolutely Hilarious SF book (besides The Hitchhikers series) is "Dimension of Miracles" by Robert Sheckly (I believe) Cheers, Steve Stephen Pearl VOICE: (201)932-3465 US MAIL: LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903 UUCP: ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl ARPA: PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 04:00:09 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Funny SF howard@pioneer.UUCP (Lauri Howard) writes: >And now for something totally different, I'm looking for more funny >SF writers along the lines of Sheckley, Tenn, Adams, and Harrison. >I have read a couple of Asprin's "Myth..." books; I found them >mytherably predictable and trite. Any suggestions? Have you ever read anything by Stanislaw Lem? He's a Polish SF writer. Though his themes are usually pretty deep and involve the fate of societies, he almost always brings his point across in a ridiculously hilarious way by "reductio ad absurdum." Once in a while he drags on and on about certain philosophical concepts, but most of the time things are funny. I have not read very much by Lem at all (about 6 of the short stories in _The Star Diaries_) but what I have read has been for an English course in SF, where the instructor gives us an idea of the kind of stuff Lem usually writes. Lem is often referred to as an exceptionally literary SF writer, and he himself denies that he is an SF writer. No matter -- he's very good. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 20:24:55 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Humourous SF Another humorous sf recommendation: Somtow Sucharitkul's "Mallworld" stories, collected in the book of the same name. In a more serious vein, Sucharitkul (pronounce it like it's spelled; it's easy!) is the author of the Chronicles of the High Inquest: THE LIGHT ON THE SOUND, THE THRONE OF MADNESS, UTOPIA HUNTERS, and THE DAWNING SHADOW, which I recommend highly. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 20:46:38 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Humourous SF sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >In a more serious vein, Sucharitkul (pronounce it like it's >spelled; it's easy!) is the author of the Chronicles of the High >Inquest: THE LIGHT ON THE SOUND, THE THRONE OF MADNESS, UTOPIA >HUNTERS, and THE DAWNING SHADOW, which I recommend highly. oops. That should be THE DARKLING WIND. The first two books have been reissued in expanded editions with the supertitle (opposite of subtitle) The DAWNING SHADOW, and I got confused for a minute. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 87 22:19:31 GMT From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu Subject: Re: Humourous SF Let's not forget Harry Harrison's _Stainless Steel Rat_ series. If you want tongue planted firmly in cheek adventure, I can think of few better. T. Kogoma P.S. My personal favorite of all the books is the first half of _A Stainless Steel Rat Is Born_. After that, It goes a bit downhill. cs2633ba@izar.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 87 13:11:46 EST From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa Subject: Request for Humorous SF Replying to Howard@pioneer.arpa: If you can find some of L. Sprague DeCamp's non-Conan stuff, it should amuse you. In addition to "The Compleat Enchanter" and "Wall of Serpents", both about a rather brash psychologist, I can recommend "The Collected Short Stories"(title?). While shaky on the title, I *know* it was published by Ballantine. Some of the topics: a mermaid on a ladies' swim team; an icthyologist who has to breathe water for a while; a Neanderthal passing as Irish (no letter bombs, please, I'm just reporting!); and, among others, some of the trouble one can get into trying to grow flesh back onto fossils (the method seems reasonable). There is also a collaboration (with Fletcher Pratt) called "Tales from Gavagan's Bar", complete with pink elephants and time-warped restrooms. Keith Laumer is also a good bet. His stories about Jame Retief, "the only interstellar diplomat with honor, courage, or ability" are quite funny. Go easy though-- you can OD quickly. The titles all mention Retief (most?). Laumer's other humorous series is about a penniless young draftsman who winds up in a number of predicaments by shuffling probable realities (somewhat as in Zelazny's Amber stories...). Lafayette O'Leary is a likeable sort, and the stories are better than the Retief series. (IMHO) Two of the titles are "The World Shuffler", and "The Shape Changer". There are two others, but I can't remember the darn things just now. Finally, I will put in a plug for Spider Robinson. "Callahan's Cross-time Saloon", "Time Travelers Strictly Cash", and "Callahan's Secret" contain some tall tales and OUTRAGEOUS stinking puns. They would leaf me green with envy, if I weren't too busy howling. There is also a short story collection called "Anitnomy" (no, I didn't misspell the element ! ). His style is very reminiscent of Heinlein at his best. Anahoo, hope you enjoy these. Good hunting! Dave Wegener 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa. PS-- Another good DeCamp is "Lest Darkness Fall", where an archeologist zapped back to ancient Rome (5th Century A.D.) tries to avert the Middle Ages. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 08:33:41 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!sysdes!minster!john@rutgers.edu Subject: Some Requests I'd like to hear what net-Americans think of various pieces of British S.F. In particular, has anyone read any novels by the Englishman Keith Roberts: his alternative history novel "Pavane", or his post-holocaust novel "Molly Zero", for instance? Finally, can anyone tell me the author and title of a (fifties?) S.F. story in which a computer programmer working on a simulation of a community for advertising purposes discovers that he is but a program in a greater simulation being run in a world with oddly-named continents: 'America', 'Europe' and so forth? Shades of Frederik Pohl's "The Tunnel Under The World", but not quite. John A. Murdie Dept. of Comp. Sci. University of York England ukc!york!minster!john ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 19:48:34 GMT From: cpf@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Courtenay Footman) Subject: Short story identifacation request This is a request for the title and author of a short story. The story is about a person who lives his life "episodically". What this means is that each day when he wakes up he might be 20 years old in 1960 or 40 years old in 1980 or ... . This usual happens to him every few weeks. (I don't remember the actual dates; they may not have been given.) The protagonist tries to keep this feature of his life hidden, since he has no desire to wind up in lunatic asylum. Thus he keeps very good notes, diaries, etc. One trivial incident is that when he goes to the bank to look at his safe deposit box, where he keeps important papers, a bank employee makes a joking remark about "rewriting his will again"; the hero is a bit surprised, and very annoyed with himself for creating an "in joke" that could surprise himself. SPOILER FOLLOWS: (Does anyone really not read spoilers to completely unknown things?) After a few pages in which the author gives us the flavor of this mans life, the hero encounters a women whom he knows from later in his life, and he accidently greets her, although he thinks that is a mistake because she shouldn't know him. To his amazement, she knows him -- she lives the same sort of life he does. At this point they try to do something neither of them has really tried before: to change the future. They want to wind up married, rather than suffer the unhappy marriages that they find/found themselves in in the future. (At least him; I don't remember if she was married.) It turns out that they can. That is the high point of the story, there are a few more pages, and then it ends. END SPOILER I am sorry if my spoiler is confusing, but English needs a few more tenses to state time travel stories clearly. My thanks to anyone who can help me on this. Courtenay Footman Lab. of Nuclear Studies Cornell University ARPA: cpf@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu Bitnet: cpf%lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu@CRNLCS.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 87 10:44:43 GMT From: seismo!utai!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse@rutgers.edu (der Mouse) Subject: Book request (fantasy, but not so labeled) Lacking a fantasy-lovers newsgroup (mailing list, to you ARPAnauts), I am resorting to sf-lovers in the hope that enough take it to mean "speculative" as well as "science" fiction. I am looking for a book I read years ago (maybe ten years?); it was in the public library of the village I lived in at the time (Kaslo, in the interior of British Columbia). It was clearly intended as a children's fairy-tale book, but what I remember of it falls squarely into what I would now call the fantasy genre. The book was a hardbound book with large pages (probably on the order of 8.5x11 inches, though as I say, it's been years). It was fairly full of illustrations, but they were nice detailed line drawings, not the sort of outline-with-bright-color-fill drawing you find in second grade primers. The book was set in China (possibly Japan, but I don't think so). I remember the following points, in no particular order: Nasty evil sorcerer (dressed in black I think?). One character is turned into a figurine (possibly by Nasty Evil Sorcerer?); I think the figurine was made of jade. The protagonist is carried somewhere by a dragon (rides on the dragon maybe?). The protagonist visits the garden of the Gods (no, not the one in Colorado :-) and has a meal there; on returning he finds that a large amount of time (month? year? more?) has passed here. Or maybe he doesn't eat because he knows (has been told?) this would happen? Protagonist is on a quest of some sort (to restore the figurine to life maybe?), but is otherwise a normal human. *Any* leads that may help me track this book down will be greatly appreciated. Surely I'm not the only person on this network who has read this book? Or if I am :-(, does anyone know how I'd go about finding a good hypnotist? mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu ------------------------------ From: ames!amdahl!bnrmtv!perkins@rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins) Subject: Re: OH the embarrassment Date: 9 Apr 87 22:54:19 GMT The name of the story is "A !Tangled Web". Joe Haldeman wrote it in 1981 after Jerry Pournelle claimed that every SF author had written an alien bar scene story. The story is in Haldeman's anthology "Dealing in Futures". Henry Perkins {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 87 01:33:57 GMT From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee) Subject: Re: Short story identifacation request >The story is about a person who lives his life "episodically". >What this means is that each day when he wakes up he might be 20 >years old in 1960 or 40 years old in 1980 or ... . This usual >happens to him every few weeks. (I don't remember the actual dates; >they may not have been given.) The protagonist tries to keep this >feature of his life hidden, since he has no desire to wind up in >lunatic asylum. Thus he keeps very good notes, diaries, etc. Since nobody seems to have commented on this (as opposed to the usual case when 300 people give the same response to th same article), I think I'll answer this. The story is "If This is Winnetka, You Must be Judy", by F. M. Busby, published in the book Universe 5, edited by Terry Carr. Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701@JHUVM, INS_AKAA@JHUVMS, INS_AKAA@JHUNIX ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 87 19:45:01 GMT From: perry@inteloa.intel.com Subject: Re: No Men john@minster.UUCP writes: >... can anyone tell me the author and title of a (fifties?) S.F. >story in which a computer programmer working on a simulation of a >community for advertising purposes discovers that he is but a >program in a greater simulation being run in a world with >oddly-named continents: 'America', 'Europe' and so forth? Shades of >Frederik Pohl's "The Tunnel Under The World", but not quite. Well, for what it's worth (I've read the stuff more than 10 years ago, and the book is currently in Europe...): The book is titled `Simulachron-2', and the author's name is `Daniel F. Galoye' (take the end of the last name with a grain of salt - but there WAS a `y' in there...). Quite a nice story, though being as old as it is, its technology is not convincing (not its fault), and the main character is still guessing long after the reader knows (hopes) how the story will end... Hope this helps. perry@inteloa.intel.com tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 14:43:15 GMT From: bt@ssl-macc.co.uk (Brian Thompstone) Subject: SF Authors in Interview From a BBC radio interview (this week ) with Arthur C. Clarke: (All words approximate, but no intentional distortions introduced.) Interviewer: It has been said that plots are not your strong point. Famous SF writer: Yes, well I've never been very good at plots. But then, in science fiction it isn't really necessary. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 14 Apr 87 0951-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #152 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Apr 87 0951-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #152 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 152 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Apr 87 04:46:02 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon) From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >Excerpts from the NESFA Boskone 25 Committee's tentative working >model for next year's con: > >Statement of purpose: "The primary purpose of Boskone is to be a >science fiction convention of 2000 attendees or less, aimed at the >mature science fiction fan." > ... >7. No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or legal >guardian. > This was a painful policy to have to agree to. We know that it is >unfair to those kids who show up and don't cause problems. However, >a number of problems have been caused by teenagers who seem to view >Boskone as a place to get away from parental supervision. In my experience (school trips to U.S. cities, music camps, etc.), teenagers who go to events in order to get away from parental supervision are usually grabbing at the chance to do all the things they wouldn't be permitted to do if they were being supervised... Pretty obvious, right? On our music department's trip to Boston, for example, I discovered that all my friends intended to dress up, go out to try to get into some clubs, get absolutely stinking drunk, flirt with everybody (usually of the opposite sex) in sight, stay up all night, make lots of noise, and spend all their money. Not necessarily because they WANTED these things; just because (the staying up all night especially) they weren't normally allowed to do these things. (I know SO MANY kids that couldn't wait to reach legal drinking age -nineteen, here-, and fully intended to drink themselves sick when they did. It all seems so silly, to want to feel awful just because you weren't allowed to before.) Anyway, it seems to me that most of the rowdy type of teenagers would be put off by the other rules. The fact that the con will be closing down at a set time, and not running all night. The fact that they won't be able to get a drink everywhere they go; con suites generally have far stricter legal-age monitering than open parties. The fact that it won't be much of a party con. OF COURSE there will still be teenagers wanting to go that will want to stay up all night. But there will be many of the old folks staying up late too. They've taken the fact that there were rowdy teenagers at the last Boskone and decided on this age thingy WITHOUT considering WHY they were getting ROWDY teenagers. I realize there are problems that need to be solved right away, but I think this particular trend is serious enough to demand experimentation; I think it's more than likely they wouldn't have a problem with rowdy teenagers once the other restrictions were put into effect. Refusing entrance to kids whose parents aren't interested in SF is refusing entrance to those kids who can make the most of access to the con! I was fifteen/sixteen for my first year of going to cons on my own. I went to AD ASTRA in Toronto, Maplecon in Ottawa, the Worldcon in Baltimore... I made my own arrangements, I paid my own bills, I stayed with my own long-distance friends. I had a wonderful time, and I did nothing illegal or particularly impolite or inconsiderate. (I'm a good kid, ain't I? :^) I learned things about my art and writing, I met people I wouldn't otherwise have had a chance to meet (and am waiting for a chance to see again)... There are other cons besides Boskone, but suppose Boskone had been the one in my area. Suppose my parents weren't willing to let me travel out of our area for a con, but they were willing to let me go to THIS ONE on my own. I have to miss out because they don't have the time to babysit me?! I'm sure you get the idea. I'm upset because, in trying to restrict the number of rowdy teenagers that attend Boskone, the committee is taking measures against TEENAGERS, NOT against ROWDY TENNAGERS. Why can't they cut down on the things rowdy teenagers are going to the con FOR, rather than cutting down on all teenagers to avoid the rowdy ones? It's NOT fair, and its unfairness in inexcusable in my eyes. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 87 05:06:39 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon) paradis@encore.UUCP (Jim Paradis) writes: >castell@UMass.BITNET writes: >>7. No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or legal >>guardian. >> This was a painful policy to have to agree to. We know that it is >>unfair to those kids who show up and don't cause problems. >>However, a number of problems have been caused by teenagers who >>seem to view Boskone as a place to get away from parental >>supervision. >Since I'm sure every member of the con committee is over 18, I'm >REAL SURE this was a painful decision! (heavy sarcasm). You're >damn right it's unfair to the VAST MAJORITY of young fans who cause >no problems. Is there any PROOF that more problems were caused by >people under 18 than by those over 18??!! Or is this just a >convenient restriction to make because it's politically correct? >Put it another way: If it can be shown that the vast majority of >troublemakers at prvious cons were male, would NESFA then consider >a policy of restricting men from attending? Yeah. (Talk about appropriate phrasing... :^) Can the con committee prove that they're not just afraid of teenagers, or afraid of a group that is usually very obviously as comfortable in the mundane world as they are in any other? They can't say "You're not allowed in if you're a media fan". After all, what if they offend some nice, quiet, respectable media fan who isn't the type responsible for the general havoc media fans are "known" to cause. I guess it's okay to offend kids, because they don't have legal rights. (I should point out that other than this one rule I'm happy with their new policies. They won't ever please everyone, of course, and I've got friends that won't think of going because the new rules go against their preferences. But it's shaping into the type of con I'm most likely to enjoy. If only... I don't think I want to go to a con at which the only kids present are those who are the least likely to behave properly without parental supervision. And how often have you seen parents of 13-14 year olds and over at cons actually supervising their offspring?) Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 00:33:20 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon) dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes: >paradis@encore.UUCP (Jim Paradis) writes: >>>7. No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or legal >>>guardian. >>> This was a painful policy to have to agree to. We know that it >>>is unfair to those kids who show up and don't cause problems. >>>However, a number of problems have been caused by teenagers who >>>seem to view Boskone as a place to get away from parental >>>supervision. >>Since I'm sure every member of the con committee is over 18, I'm >>REAL SURE this was a painful decision! (heavy sarcasm). You're >>damn right it's unfair to the VAST MAJORITY of young fans who cause >>no problems. Is there any PROOF that more problems were caused by >>people under 18 than by those over 18??!! Or is this just a >>convenient restriction to >Well, one class of problems was energetic groups of people roaming >the halls, banging on doors occasionally, and doing similar minor >obstreperous things, not just till 2AM or 4AM, but in some cases >there were large roving packs still going strong at 6 or 7 AM. >Even if you are not bothered by the noise, this sort of thing >(24-hour high energy level) was a prime reason Boskone was thrown >out of the Sheraton. It is not interested in getting thrown out of >its next hotel. Excuse me. I'm nineteen and have therefore just recently graduated from the group they're excluding. I'm offended by the above. One of the reasons I had complaints about AD ASTRA and party cons in general was that there were large roving packs of 25-45 year olds roaming the halls, banging on doors, yelling plans from one end of the hall to the other with NO consideration of other hotel guests, making rude remarks during films so that most of the film itself couldn't be heard, making passes at every living being of the opposite sex, no matter what age or whether or not that person was with company, complaining loudly to the hotel staff and never giving THEM any consideration... Teenagers may cause problems, but I don't think you're considering just how obnoxious the "fine examples" are being. This restriction looks more unfair by the article. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 02:44:34 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Boskone And another thing... dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes: >and in any case, these are one year restrictions to be re-evaluated >next year. If these restrictions don't end up causing the concom any pain, there won't be any reason to change them. The age restriction could very easily stay put, without them ever finding out whether or not it is needed when other restrictions are in place. This is the kind of bad experimentation they tried to warn us against in school; too many variables. Again, it's TOO unfair. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 87 23:20:04 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Boskone XXV Info from INSTANT MESSAGE trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.) writes: >>7) No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or guardian. >>...We will make exceptions for: members of known SF clubs, gophers. >Why wasn't this ever instituted? I don't think I would have >initiated a convention *without* this to begin with! Stupid move >on NESFA's part. When I was seventeen, I sold some of my artwork in an art show & auction, I bought some artwork in an art show & auction, I attended a writers' workshop after submitting a story months before, I attended many panels about sf & fantasy, writing, copyright laws, art... and I voiced my opinions during those panels. I went to one or two parties, was offered alcohol at one but turned it down... I was awake but sitting quietly in the film room `til four a.m., and I went to my room quietly and tried not to step on anyone. I went to the con alone, travelled from Toronto to Ottawa and back by bus, and paid my own way with saved-up money. Yep. Undesireable, all right. I showed up a lot of other scumballs... Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 23:50:40 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Boskone (what do you want in a con) bverreau@mipos3.UUCP (Bernie Verreau) writes: >Tom Galloway writes: >> A lot of people have been bemoaning the changes which are being >> made to Boskone, going on about how "it won't be the *fun* con it >> used to be". >I admit to being one who made light of the list of Boskone >"mandates". I also admit to being among the uninitiated when it >comes to science fiction conventions. [NESFA regulars may now hit >the "n" key.] After reading the list of "don'ts", however, I was >struck by the distinctly unfriendly atti- tude directed toward >outsiders and the feeling of regimentation conveyed Others have tried to make this point before. Boskone already has too many hopeful attendees, without encouraging "outsiders". I would applaud them if they published a flyer encouraging newcomers to the "con scene" to plan on attending one of the OTHER local cons, where they'd get a chance to meet a lot of people they might have trouble FINDING at Boskone. If and when they've decided they really like cons and would like to go to what's going to be a more serious, concentrated convention, THEN they can start planning for a way to get a Boskone membership. Someone else recently posted an article about the fact that Boskone didn't have a lot of choice in whether or not to cut down on their numbers, one way or another. I disagree with the age-related restriction for the same reason I'm strongly against "Men's Clubs" or "Women's Clubs"; the members have access to important things for all the wrong reasons, and cut themselves off from half -or more- of the world. I also think that the concom is doing a very poor experiment for a supposedly science-conscious group. But this does not mean that I'm discouraging the new ("Classic") Boskone. Please, remember that the committee is putting restrictions into place to prevent problems THAT HAVE ALREADY OCCURRED, and to insure that there can be a future Boskone of some kind. >I suppose I am handicapped here in that I haven't attended sf cons, >fun or otherwise. Still, I think of a convention as primarily a >social gathering. I'm glad you do. I guess this means that Boskone is not a con for you. Given that a membership is hard to get at this point, you're better off than many. Back to the "age-young" issue: I was talking to someone else about this recently, and I mentioned what the concom had said about the "under 18" restrictions. They suggested that many of the teenagers seemed to view Boskone as a chance to get away from parental restrictions. This is probably very true in a lot of cases! But haven't any of you seen an awful lot of "grown-ups" that seem to view cons as a chance to get away from SOCIETY's restrictions? I've seen too many, and they make a lot of noise and often cause unpleasant "incidents" at cons. Can anyone give me a good definition of "hypocrisy"? -Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 87 23:59:49 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Boskone From: "Keith F. Lynch" >Perhaps NESFA should get together with many other SF organizations >also near the sea, and purchase a large cruise ship. On Boskone >weekend it I'm really not at all keen about the idea of being stuck on a ship with the type of partiers I've seen at cons. Pulling weapons on people because "it's funny" goes along the same lines as holding someone over the side of a ship -"it's just a joke". Hell, I don't have to go, right? Right. But if Boskone or any other con were to set up onboard a cruise ship, I'd hope and pray that they made a lot of the same restrictions they did for the upcoming Boskone. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 87 20:34:15 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon) becky@sq.UUCP writes: >I'm sure you get the idea. I'm upset because, in trying to >restrict the number of rowdy teenagers that attend Boskone, the >committee is taking measures against TEENAGERS, NOT against ROWDY >TENNAGERS. Why can't they cut down on the things rowdy teenagers >are going to the con FOR, rather than cutting down on all teenagers >to avoid the rowdy ones? It's NOT fair, and its unfairness in >inexcusable in my eyes. I'll agree with this. It never ceases to amaze me that at many public functions I've attended (only one con, so far, since they're all out of state -- anyone PUHLEEZE want to come to the I-X center?) there are ``mature adults'' who act far worse than I did at age 12. Kids aren't the only ones who go looking for rowdycons. Cut down on the rowdiness enticers and the people who come, no mater what age, will be the ones you want. (You won't see me complaining about the lack of free booze, for example.) Brandon S. Allbery cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@relay.cs.net 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 14 Apr 87 1021-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #153 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Apr 87 1021-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #153 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 153 Today's Topics: Books - Friedman & Kurtz & Lee & Moorcock & Piper & Stephenson & Robots (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Apr 87 15:07:04 GMT From: seismo!gatech!mcdchg!chinet!megabyte@rutgers.edu (Mark E. From: Sunderlin) Subject: C.S. Friedman and _In Conquest Born_ I saw a one page write up in Walden Book's SF 'zine, "Xignals" on the new author C.S. Friedman and her book, _In Conquest Born_. It looked to be a really good book. Does anyone have any news on this new talent? Mark E. Sunderlin UUCP:seismo!why_not!scsnet!sunder ihnp4!chinet!megabyte (202) 634-2529 Mail:IRS PM:PFR:D:NO 1111 Constitution Ave. NW Washington,DC 20224 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 87 14:15:51 GMT From: knappa@swatsun (Alison Knapp) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz books sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: > Why am I posting this to the net, instead of Email? Because I have > heard of another book by Kurtz, called "Codex Derynianus" > (spelling possibly incorrect). I've seen it listed in Books in > Print, but have never seen a copy, and have been told by Sherry > Gottlieb of Change of Hobbit Bookstore that it doesn't exist. If > anyone has concrete information on whether this book exists, > please let me know! In the latest edition of Forthcoming Books (not always the most accurate source, but all we've got), _Codex Deryniamus_ is still listed as coming from Borgo Press, but the date of publication in now "not set." (It was first supposed to come out in the summer of '86 and then the spring of '87.) If we keep pestering Borgo maybe they will manage to actually publish it someday instead of torturing hapless Servants. It must be run by Loris. :-) Alison Knapp ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 13 Apr 1987 11:00:29-PDT From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Science fiction is forever.) Subject: re: request for Tanith Lee titles In Issue 144, Mary Malmos asks for titles by Tanith Lee. Under Category 1, Rewrites, I will add "Red As Blood." This was published recently, I believe, since I got it from the Science Fiction Book Club last year. It contains rewrites of several familiar fairy tales. This was my introduction to Ms. Lee's writing, and I was amused. She has some kinky twists to some "standard" plots. Mary ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 87 01:43:19 GMT From: schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz) Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock ee171aai@sdcc13.ucsd.EDU writes: > "The Warhound and the World's Pain" is a very good book written > in the vein of the Eternal Champion (Though it is only indirectly > related to these.) I disagree with the "indirectly". Although not labeled as a "champion eternal" story, "The Warhound and the World's Pain" clearly is one. There is a fair amount of plot/imagery shared with the other books; enough that there should be little doubt about this. We have a cynical hero, questing against his will. Von Bek is nominally evil, yet he must work for the good of mankind. The whole plot is very reminiscent of the more obvious champion stories. In fact, in "the dragon in the sword" explicit reference is made to the grail, which Von Bek searches for. Moreover, we meet the same compliment of characters in warhound as in the other stories: a faithful sidekick, a lover, a knowledgeable yet reticent advisor. We also meet the same supernatural characters: the winged cat, lord Aroich, etc. Your other assessment is absolutely correct: It's a great book. I happen to think it is Moorcock's best. Cheers, Scott Schwartz Swarthmore College Computer Science Program UUCP: {{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,sun!liberty}!swatsun!schwartz AT&T: (215)-328-8610 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 20:26:17 GMT From: cmcl2!delftcc!bc-cis!john@rutgers.edu (John L. Wynstra) Subject: Re: Short story identification request cpf@batcomputer.UUCP (Courtenay Footman) writes: >This is a request for the title and author of a short story. > >The story is about a person who lives his life "episodically". >What this means is that each day when he wakes up he might be 20 >years old in 1960 or 40 years old in 1980 or ... . This usual >happens to him every few weeks. (I don't remember the actual dates; >they may not have been given.) The protagonist tries to keep this >feature of his life hidden, since he has no desire to wind up in >lunatic asylum. Thus he keeps very good notes, diaries, etc. >My thanks to anyone who can help me on this. I don't think I can help you on this one, but it does remind me of something written by H. Beam Piper, namely his "Time and Time Again". It is contained in _The Worlds of H. Beam Piper_ (Ace). I looked up the story, and found that *it* contains a reference to a character named Florian de Puysange from James Branch Cabell's _The High Place_ who had a similar experience. It also refers to a Dunne who wrote _Experiment with Time_ (Piper refers to this Dunne -- I think it is John Dunne -- elsewhere in his time-travel oriented stories. Is this a real person? Is it the famous poet?) I haven't read the Cabell book, but it might be your title. Hope this helps. warning -- SPOILERS follow concerning Piper's "Time and Time Again" In H. Beam Piper's "Time and Time Again", the protagonist, dying from a atomic blast in WW3 in 1973 (the story was Piper's second or third, ca. 1947), wakes up in 1945 as his 13-year-old self, and re-lives his life a second time. He has to hide the fact that he's an adult from his father, tries to change his personal history as an experiment, resolves to engineer a future in which his father becomes President, the WW3 *he* lived doesn't happen, etc. Piper fascinates me with his weird ideas concerning reincarnation, and even more so, with his concept of alternate time lines. Oh, yes, his stuff is good space opera (or time-travel opera?) too. John L. Wynstra Apartment 9-G, 43-10 Kissena Blvd., Flushing, N.Y., 11355 (allegra,delftcc,cmcl2,columbia,philabs)!phri!bc-cis!john ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 01:45:03 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60/C) Subject: Re: The BIG U >Here's a scoop on a little known book. The Big U. > This could possibly be one of the most unusual books ever >written. The first time I read it, I was stuck in a car for 8 >hours with nothing to do, so I read. The book is difficult to get >into, because it starts out in full swinging strangeness. The first >time its read, it is mearly funny. Then looking back, you begin to >laugh, so you read it again. This time its funnier. And so on and >so on. > >I heartily recommend the BIG U by Neal Stephenson to anybody with a >strong and overwhelming imagination. I went out and got this book after reading the above message. I found it in the regular fiction section of the bookstore. I agree that it's funny. In fact, it's a brilliant satire on life in a large college dormitory and, to a lesser extent, on college life in general. I lived in a dorm for many years so I had no problems getting into the book. After all, life in a college dorm is strange anyway. This one should be required reading for anyone living on campus. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 87 04:44:36 GMT From: cpro!asgard@rutgers.edu (J.R. Stoner) Subject: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff ccastkv@gitpyr.UUCP (Keith Vaglienti) writes: >You You might as well ask why everyone who has ever written a story >containing a robot hasn't been sued by the first person to use a >robot in a story. O.K. I knew that Saberhagen wrote the berserker wars stories long befor Galactica. Here is a question with some possibilities: What reference in literature first made use of the terms "robot" and "android"? I think that Frankenstein's monster could be classed more as a golem than an artifact. Some years ago I was a given a drama assignment to perform a reading from a czech play called R.U.R. (for Rossum's Universal Robots) [I think robot was also originally a czech slang word, but I am not sure about it.] I can't remember if this play predated Metropolis but I don't remember the use of the words robot or android in Metropolis. J.R. Stoner asgard@cpro.UUCP asgard@wotan.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 16:49:07 GMT From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff asgard@cpro.UUCP (J.R. Stoner) writes: >What reference in literature first made use of the terms "robot" >and "android"? > >Some years ago I was a given a drama assignment to perform a >reading from a czech play called R.U.R. (for Rossum's Universal >Robots) [I think robot was also originally a czech slang word, but >I am not sure about it.] I can't remember if this play predated >Metropolis but I don't remember the use of the words robot or >android in Metropolis. The play "R.U.R." was the first use of the word "robot", which comes from a Czech word meaning "slave" or "slave labor". I believe (but am by no means sure) that Asimov coined the word "robotics". I've wondered about the origin of "android" for a while myself... Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 19:18:28 GMT From: princeton!motown!bunker!hjg@rutgers.edu (Harry J. Gross) Subject: Re: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff asgard@cpro.UUCP (J.R. Stoner) writes: >Some years ago I was a given a drama assignment to perform a >reading from a czech play called R.U.R. (for Rossum's Universal >Robots) [I think robot was also originally a czech slang word, but >I am not sure about it.] R.U.R. was by Karl Kapeck. The word ROBOT is not slang, but actual czeck. It means 'worker'. In my copy of the play, there is a forward which I believe states that the play is the first place that the word ROBOT was used to refer to a mechanical huminoide. (I must admit that I am not 100% certain, as I am at work, and the play is at home!). Harry Gross ..!bunker!hjg ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 05:39:21 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff asgard@cpro.UUCP (J.R. Stoner) writes: >What reference in literature first made use of the terms "robot" >and "android"? > >Some years ago I was a given a drama assignment to perform a >reading from a czech play called R.U.R. (for Rossum's Universal >Robots) [I think robot was also originally a czech slang word, but >I am not sure about it.] R.U.R. is credited as the first story to use robots. As for calling them that: "robot" is a westernization of the Czech word for "worker". (It should be noted that the R.U.R. ``robots'' were actually biological in nature (Martri puppets, anyone?), not what we call robots). Brandon S. Allbery cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@case.CSNET 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +01 216 974 9210 ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 23:46:19 GMT From: maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak) Subject: Re: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff Unless my memory fails me, the Russian word for "work" is "robotl" or thereabouts. So while Capek may have been the first to use the word robot in its now-familiar connotation, I think he probably had a sound basis in the Slavic languages for it. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 04:07:33 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >I believe (but am by no means sure) that Asimov coined the word >"robotics". Asimov just claimed the invention of the word "robotics" for himself in the April 1987 issue of F & SF. Modest of him, don't you think? He says it's even attributed to him in things like the Oxford English Dictionary and others, or whatever. "Gee -- Mr. Clarke invents the communications satellite, and all Mr. Asimov can come up with is a *word*! And not even a *really* new word at that, as all he did is add a suffix to 'robot!' "Gee, Mr. Asimov, can I have your autograph? "*Pleeease?*" ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 87 06:48:18 GMT From: asgard@compupro.com (J.R. Stoner) Subject: Re: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >>wondered about the origin of "android" for a while myself... >Typical construction from classical roots. `andro'`oid' = >`man'`like' (but I don't know if `oid' was from Greek or Latin or >etc.). Weeellllll, that does not really answer my original query about the origin of 'android' in SF literature. I know it is a construction from greek roots, but I was looking for an attribution like that for Karel Capek and 'robot'. BTW did you know there is a useful book about learning how to write programs called 'Karel the Robot'? I have source code for the example automaton called karel here on the Gateway and one of these days I am going to figure out how to use it (for teaching techorabble how to not be afraid of the machines). J.R. Stoner asgard@cpro.UUCP asgard@wotan.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 23:04:28 GMT From: s.cc.purdue.edu!ahh@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >>I believe (but am by no means sure) that Asimov coined the word >>"robotics". You are correct. He did. At the time he was writing his robot stories, he thought the word was the logical name for the science of designing and building robots. Later, he found out that he did, in fact, create the word. It had never been used before his stories. >Asimov just claimed the invention of the word "robotics" for >himself in the April 1987 issue of F & SF. Modest of him, don't you >think? He sys it's even attributed to him in things like the Oxford >English Dictionary and others, or whatever. How does modesty enter into the issue? He did coin the word, and it *has* been adopted into general usage (one of my roommates is a grad student in EE and working on robots--I have seen the word on his *textbooks*). Dr. Asimov is stating a fact, not trying to impress anyone. >"Gee -- Mr. Clarke invents the communications sattelite, and all >Mr. Asimov Arthur Clarke *mentioned* the idea of artificial satellites in a paper in the fifties. He didn't *invent* the communications satellite. He even says (to this day) that it wasn't that big of a deal. Mr. Cherkauer, I have noticed in this posting (see above) and others (the "Nightfall" discussion) that you seem to have a definite bias against Isacc Asimov. As a matter of fact, you seem to devote a significant amount of effort to slamming him. Is there some reason for this? Or, are you just attacking him because he is generally regarded as one of the "greats" of Science Fiction? Or is it personal? I wonder, since you haven't missed an opportunity to flame him, yet you give no reasons for such flamage. Brent Woods PHONE: (317) 743-6445 USENET:{seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc.purdue.edu!ahh BITNET:PODUM@PURCCVM USNAIL:Brent Woods 500 Russell St., Apt. 19 West Lafayette, IN 47906 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 15 Apr 87 1019-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #154 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Apr 87 1019-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #154 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 15 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 154 Today's Topics: Books - DeCamp & Farmer & Friedman (2 msgs) & Hubbard & Lessing & Rand & Short Stories (3 msgs) & A Request Answer & Non-trilogies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Apr 87 13:13:32 EST From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa To: cpf@inssun9.tn.cornell.edu. Subject: "Wall of Serpents", by Decamp and Pratt Courtenay-- Apologies for letting you hang lo these many moons, but I have had a major workload-induced hiatus in my pursuit of sf-lovers. I obtained my copy of WoS by mail from Phantasia Press, of Huntingdon Woods, MI. They issued it in hardback about 2 or 3 years ago. I haven't seen it in paperback, but it might well be out there since "The Compleat Enchanter" was reissued within the last year. If all else fails, ask your bookstore to let you see their "Index of Books in Print, by Author" (sic). That has helped me more than once. Best of Luck, Dave Wegener 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 16:11:28 GMT From: seismo!mcnc!brawn@rutgers.edu (Andrew Brawn) Subject: Re: Philip Jose' Farmer jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini) writes: >1) Why were the people resurrected in the first place? Have you read the fifth book? If you haven't it should answer that question. If you have I'm not going to say what I think to be the answer as it would be a spoiler. Another problem, I have forgotten the title of the fifth book, brilliant soul that I am, but it was released only last year or the year before. >B) I realize that Farmer had to draw the line somewhere but I would >used some "bigger" characters in the book. I think that Twain, Burton, Cyrano are bigger that life. I think if Farmer had used world leaders, such as JFK, Churchill, their stories would have been predictable, contrived, or both. Too many people have firm opinions on those individuals. I found it interesting that Farmer used characters that others would not have thought to use. They are people whose lives the author obviously found very interesting. >But I would have included someone like John the Baptist. or at >least a pope or apostle. Jesus is mentioned in the fifth book. I can't say what happened to him in Farmer's world (another spoiler) send me e-mail if you want to know. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 16:11:02 GMT From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: C.S. Friedman and _In Conquest Born_ megabyte@chinet.UUCP writes: >I saw a one page write up in Walden Book's SF 'zine, "Xignals" on >the new author C.S. Friedman and her book, _In Conquest Born_. It >looked to be a really good book. Does anyone have any news on this >new talent? Yes. I've read the book, already, and it may be the best piece of Science Fiction published this year. It should please both Hard SF folks and people looking for solid characters and plot. It's big -- 500 pages or so. It has a wraparound Whelan cover (one of the most impressive Whelan's I've seen). The book had me up until 2 in the morning two nights in a row trying to get through it. And, believe it or not, it is a first novel. The most impressive first novel since (at least) MacAvoy's Tea With the Black Dragon. You will want to buy this book. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 05:20:52 GMT From: dayton!viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: C.S. Friedman and _In Conquest Born_ megabyte@chinet.UUCP writes: >I saw a one page write up in Walden Book's SF 'zine, "Xignals" on >the new author C.S. Friedman and her book, _In Conquest Born_. It >looked to be a really good book. Does anyone have any news on this >new talent? I finished reading this book earlier this week. I thought it was very well done. While not by any means a simple clone, it's very likely to appeal to people who liked Lois McMasters Bujold's books _Shards of Honor_ and _The Warrior's Apprentice_. (The publication dates, if nothing else, absolve C.S. Friedman from the charge of cloning.) This books is a clear **** (Hi chuq!). I may award another half star after a month or so and another reading. I'm stalling, trying to come up with a plot summary for those who like such things, but I can't. Not even an equivalent of "A guy with furry feet finds a ring and throws it in a volcano." The book HAS a plot, and characters too. Two main cultures, both somewhat derived from ours, which are at war with each other and have been for tens of thousands of years. Very powerful\ main characters on both sides. And opportunites for them to meet. Oh, go read the book yourself. David Dyer-Bennet UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 87 18:19 PDT From: Disaster Area <8440827%wwu.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET> Subject: L. Ron Hubbard I have been reading a very long, but very good book by L. Ron Hubbard called Battlefield Earth. I was wondering if anyone has read any of his other SF works such as the Mission Earth series and if they are any good. Dave Kinsman ------------------------------ From: Jeff Dalton Date: Tue, 14 Apr 87 19:57:31 GMT Subject: Is Lessing SF? From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!retief@rutgers.edu > It's a curious thing. I have for a couple of years now seen her > work classified as both Fiction Proper and Science Fiction in the > book-stores and libraries. This is easily explained. Lessing is a "serious", "mainstream" writer who has now written some Science Fiction. Therefore, the people who assign books to shelves are somewhat confused about where to put the SF ones. Since she's not a genre author, they can't just dump them in SF, but they do seem to belong there, and so they end up in both places. From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) > These books are the kind that drive the genre-definers mad. Trying to define a genre is always problematical. If innovation is still possible, the next book to come along might be one that forces us to re- evaluate our criteria. However, the placement of books for sale does not primarily reflect such an analysis in any case. For example, Gene Wolfe's Soldier of the Mist, which might be regarded as an historical novel if written by someone else, tends to be put in the SF section because that's where the author's known. Or imagine where you might find The Man in the High Castle if it weren't written by P. K. Dick. The process also works in reverse: look, e.g., for Don DeLillo's Ratner's Star (?sp). ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 05:01:35 GMT From: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@rutgers.edu (Karen L. Black) Subject: Re: Ayn Rand I would recommend that anyone wanting an introduction to Ayn Rand start with _Anthem_, a short novel. It is much more "science-fictiony" than either _The_Fountainhead_ or _Atlas_Shrugged_, and it doesn't stop all action for fifty-seven pages while John Galt spells out Objectivism for the slow of mind. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the books (although most of her female characters are wimps! sign of the times, I suppose), but plowing through 1084 pages of text can be daunting. ". . . and what did she mean, slow of mind?" Karen Black ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 22:59:25 GMT From: ames!amdahl!bnrmtv!perkins@rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins) Subject: Another addition to short story list I'd add "Slow Sculpture" by Theodore Sturgeon to the list. It won both Hugo and Nebula awards, and I think deservedly. Another good choice, although a bit longer, is Roger Zelazny's "The Doors of his Face, the Lamps of his Mouth" (I hope I got that right). Both of these stories have very good character development. Henry Perkins {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 19:33:45 GMT From: carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore) Subject: Re: Addition to short story list ahh@s.cc.purdue.edu.UUCP writes: >From: William LeFebvre >>How about "Flowers for Algernon" by (oh rats---I can't remember >>who did it now). It was one of the most moving and unique stories >>I have ever read (including non-sf stuff). > > It was written by Daniel Keyes, and you are quite right about > it. It was an extrememly good novella (it even won a > much-deserved Hugo). It was later expanded into a novel (in my > opinion, not as good as the original, but still very powerful). You are both right about "Flowers for Algernon" being very, very good. The only reason it wasn't included in the best short story list was length. By the way, I knew I'd forget a few of my favorites in a quick posting. Those I've remembered so far are: Brave to be a King Poul Anderson The Persistence of Vision John Varley Lollipop and the Tar Baby John Varley High Infidelity Spider Robinson Melancholy Elephants Spider Robinson arole Ashmore ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 87 23:48:52 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Short Stories From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa >Someone asked about the short story and mentioned that a lot of >discussion has gone into some of the major epics. I would like to >add my 2,000,000 quatloos to the proceedings. > >Short stories are short. They are designed to be read in one >sitting (at True. But I'll read a good book in one sitting too, and I'll do it because I can't put the book down. With short stories, I've too often found putting the book/magazine/manuscript down to be far too easy. >least according to Poe they are). Thus, when you are under a lot >of time constraints from work or school, you can still scarf down a >short story before bed. You can't do this with a novella and many >is the time I started to read only a chapter of a book and ended up >finishing it at 4am. Plus, the short story generally has a strong >theme, something many novels somehow miss. How I don't read for theme, and though I generally like one to be there it's not ever going to be of major importance unless it's coming from the protagonist's head and/or heart. "Plus", many novels have powerful, in-depth characterization, which short stories often miss (except in very rare, very special cases). And, as I've often said, I read for plot and theme and gimmicks, etc., only where they affect the character that I must grow to love in order to appreciate those things. >many epics have good strong themes? Many tend to be a jumble of >themes and some of them don't even bother. This can be good since >many adventure stories would only be tied down by a theme, but I >still prefer a nicely stated point. So do I. But I don't like it when it's shoved down my throat. I don't know that this is true of the average sf story, but the stories we read in school (which were short stories admired by other than schoolteachers) were often beautiful, powerful stories that missed out on being loveable only by making Theme so goddamned obvious. The authors' voices -and prejudices- were too loud, and I know I HAVE found this in sf stories. >The short story is, as we all must know, a very precise art form; >similar to painting with only a small brush. All the work of >making up a universe and characters must be done quickly and >succinctly, with no room for meandering. I agree with this, and it's why I like some poetry, too. (I considered posting something about this topic earlier, but I couldn't find a way of describing short stories well enough that I could say why I didn't enjoy them as a rule...) But it is exactly due to the above that truly wonderful short stories are so rare. You could say the same about novels, I suppose. But if novels are easier (though more time-consuming) to write, OF COURSE there are more being written, and novelists are more likely to spend the time I want them to on characters and emotions, painting their worlds and ideas into more than just worlds and ideas... (I always fall into these "nonsense" trends when words fail me, don't I? :^) I have read some WONDERFUL short stories. But I can't get up the courage/interest/excitement to wade through the AVERAGE short stories in magazines to find the GOOD ones, because average short stories are lacking what average novels generally give me. Then again, maybe I just wasn't exposed to the right stories at the right times. I haven't TRIED to read many short stories in quite a while. But now that I'm used to reading novels, I find the average short story ends too soon... I guess there's just no hope for me. Of short stories I have loved... I liked the Niven stuff when it was read to me, but I was eleven, so what did I know? I've loved almost every Tanith Lee short story I've read. CJCherryh's Cassandra really got to me, and I loved the stories of Longyear's CIRCUS WORLD - but then, that's another series. At the moment, I don't REMEMBER any other good ones, and that's part of the problem, isn't it? I think the short story is a wonderful art-form, but (at the moment, anyway) it's not for me. Perhaps there's just a trend toward what novels have (or lack) that short stories don't, and that's why novels and series are so heavily discussed in these screens. It's true, too, that if a writer can cause his readers to love his characters as much as he does, they're bound to be interested in seeing more of them. I've nothing against series as long as the writer continues to explore new ground within that set-up (Piers Anthony is an example of where this has not happened), and as long as the main character(s) continue to grow and change. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 10:12:47 GMT From: seismo!enea!mapper!ksand@rutgers.edu (Kent Sandvik) Subject: Re: No Men john@minster.UUCP writes: >Finally, can anyone tell me the author and title of a (fifties?) >S.F. story in which a computer programmer working on a simulation >of a community for advertising purposes discovers that he is but a >program in a greater simulation being run in a world with >oddly-named continents: 'America', 'Europe' and so forth? Shades of >Frederik Pohl's "The Tunnel Under The World", but not quite. Two books that spring to my mind are Daniel Galouye's "Counterfeit World" and Christopher Priest's "A Dream of Wessex". The first one is maybe the book you're referring to, a story about a computer simulated world used for marketing studies - and where a programmer discovers that the world he's living in is maybe also a great simulation. I strongly recommend Galouye's books - they're a bit Dick, a bit Bloch and usually very clever written. And speaking about "A Dream of Wessex" by Priest - I don't want to spoil the story for anyone. A clue: it's similar to "Counterfeit World" - a story about a simulated world. Does anybody else have any pointers to similar "simulated worlds"-books? Kent Sandvik UNISYS UNIX Support, SWEDEN PHONE: (46) 8 55 16 39 job, 733 32 35 home ARPA: enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa UUCP: ksand@mapper.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Apr 87 15:34 CST From: Subject: L'Engle and the non-trilogy I'd like to point out that not ALL stories have to be tightly coupled. I'm sure some of you have read the Retief books, some of you have read the Niven books, etc. Why demand that all books by an author conform to some marketing idiot's idea of what sells? The trilogy/quatrology/quintology is vastly over-rated. In many ways, I PREFER to read books that are only loosely linked to each other. Other genres of fiction don't have the fixation with trilogies that the science fiction/fantasy readers have come to expect. I also read most any Nero Wolfe/Sherlock Holmes novel/short-story I can get. They are complete books, in and of themselves ... and the same can be said for the "non"trilogy of L'Engle. Dave Meile davidli@simvax.bitnet ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Apr 87 1100-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #155 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Apr 87 1100-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #155 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 16 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 155 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh & Harrison & Roberts & Tiptree (2 msgs) & Magic Shop Stories & The Copper Crown & The Hercules Text ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Apr 87 16:42:17 GMT From: carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore) Subject: Re: C.J. Cherryh (Tully's Allegiance) (**SPOILER**) Sorry, fellows, Josh Talley is the Union spy who is converted to the newly formed Alliance by his loyalty to Damon Konstantin in DOWNBELOW STATION, and ends up in a rather ambiguous relationship with Signey Mallory at the end of DOWNBELOW STATION and in MERCHANTER'S LUCK. He's not the same character as Tully, the poor Terran who struggles with the translating gadget through the Chanur series. Carole Ashmore ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 15:44:39 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Humourous SF cs2633ba@izar.UUCP writes: > Let's not forget Harry Harrison's _Stainless Steel Rat_ series. >If you want tongue planeted firmly in cheek adventure, I can think >of few better. > >P.S. My personal favorite of all the books is the first half of _A >Stainless Steel Rat Is Born_. After that, It goes a bit downhill. >Capt. Gym Quirk You really liked only the first half of the *last* book the best. Not a resounding recommendation. I liked them all. My personal favorites being all but the last book. I was never into flashbacks. seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite work: 703-749-2384 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87 20:05:36 GMT From: Jeff Dalton Subject: Molly Zero, Kiteworld From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!sysdes!minster!john@rutgers.edu > In particular, has anyone read any novels by the Englishman Keith > Roberts: his alternative history novel "Pavane", or his > post-holocaust novel "Molly Zero", for instance? I read Molly Zero a while ago and was quite impressed. Those interested in literary technique (or those who claim English has no present tense) might note that it is narrated in 2nd person present. (Question: what else has been written in this way? I know of only Monique Wittig's The Opoponox, but I'm sure there must be others.) One problem with Molly Zero is that I couldn't quite figure out the politics. Just what was the nature of the government? Totalitarian? Left? Right? Why did they have such elaborate schemes for dealing with people like Molly? Keith Roberts has also writen another post-holocaust novel -- in a completely different universe -- called "Kiteworld". It was supposedly excellent, but I didn't find it so. It contains a number of separate but partially connected stories. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87 13:56:54 EDT From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Feminist writers I sure hope Brad Templeton was joking when he referred to James Tiptree, Jr. and Andre Norton as men; they're both women, and both (coincidentally) named Alice. Both originally wrote under pseudonyms to counter the bias they saw in SF against women writers. Norton's gender has been known for at least twenty-odd years, and "Tiptree" (Alice Sheldon) revealed herself as female in the mid-70s, to the great surprise of the SF community. Tiptree has also written under the name Raccoona Sheldon, primarily to publish stories that were more female-oriented without blowing her cover. To my knowledge, she has stuck to the Tiptree pseudonym since her identity became known. Lisa Evans Malden, Massachusetts ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 22:52:35 GMT From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) Subject: Tiptree Something I found ironic was Harlan Ellison saying, in _Again, Dangerous Visions_, that while Kate Wilhelm was the woman to watch in the next few years, James Tiptree, Jr., was the man to watch. (By "to watch" he meant that they were the best of the up-and-coming.) Karen Williams g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 03:17:17 GMT From: lawler@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Robert Lawler) Subject: Re: Magical Shop results williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes: >Here are the results of my request for Magical Shop stories. > >From: Vicarious Oyster > A.E. Van Vogt (sp?) wrote one or two of them (or a novella and a >short story, or some such combination). _The Weapon Shops of >Isher_ is a close approximation of the title(s). As far as local >acquisition of said stories, I dunno; ten tears ago Pic-a-Book was >a good source for SF, but it seems to specialize in porn and comic >books now (>- sigh! -<). A. E. Van Vogt wrote two such books. The short stories were preliminary versions, contained later in the books. Both were first published in the 1940s. The books, _The Weapon Makers_ and _The Weapon Shops of Isher_ can be read separately; the order is neither clear nor important. However, these are two classic novels, and some of the best books I have ever read. In fact, read any Van Vogt you can obtain (especially _Slan_). My copies were printed by Pocket Books in 1979, though I don't know if they are still available. Robert Lawler lawler@amt.media.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 87 03:45:31 GMT From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: The Copper Crown Well, I read _The Copper Crown_ last night. I've a few quibbles and questions. (SPOILERs here, I guess) It seemed to me that the only one who got hurt was Aeron (the queen). Other people were killed, but she was the only one who got injured-- her leg got racked in combat, she got cut to pieces battling Bres, she sprained her ankle, she got snow sick, she kept getting depressed over what she was doing and what she had started and all that. I don't remember any one else having anywhere near these problems. (end specific SPOILERs, start general SPOILERs) Has anyone figured out the rules for combat? The rationale is that all galactic civilizations (ALL? come on--the galaxy is BIG) have these rules about what you are allowed to do when fighting on a planet. I can't seem to make these rules consistent. It seems to be ok to use lasers against incoming shuttles and against fortifications. It seems to be ok to use these lasers against ground targets that aren't fortifications (on one scene, the queen and her consort and her consort's sister are standing on a chunk of ground that has been heated by laser fire. There didn't seem to ever have been fortifications on this chunk of ground). Which seems to imply that it is ok to use lasers against cavalry or infantry. On the other hand, we never actually here about lasers being used against cavalry or infantry. It seems to be ok to use bombs (the enemy had bombers--what use are bombers without bombs?). It is apparently not ok to use rifles or arrows (although there is one scene where a trooper is carrying a blaster). Tanks may or may not be legal (the ground is apparently flat enough for cavalry, but too broken for tanks. I haven't figured that one out). Anyone figured out what a laser-sword looks like? Sounds suspiciously like a light-sabre to me. There is one scene where a laser-sword gets shorted out in a convenient fashion--the rationale sounded pretty bogus. Anyone ever here of a gold-colored laser? Magic is pretty damn potent. There are rules against destroying a planet by atomics, but not by magic. I couldn't figure out any rules for magic--it seemed to be able to do just about anything. Oh well. Besides the combat idiosyncrasies, the thing that really bothered me was Arthur. Around the 21st or 22nd century, this set of worlds spawned a hero named Arthur. Arthur had an adviser named Merlin. Arthur married a princess named Gwynevire (sp?) and had two children (this differs a bit from either the Mallory Arthur or the Welsh Arthur, i think. The Mallory Arthur only had one child--Mordred, off of his (half)sister Morganna. The Welsh Arthur seemed to have several children). Arthur had a sister named Morganna, who was a potent magician. Arthur disappeared in combat, leaving a message behind that he would return in their hour of need. Oh. Uther was King before Arthur. No one seems at all surprised at the similarities between this Arthur and the legendary Arthur. The legendary Arthur was mentioned once (I think). This Arthur didn't return as the legendary Arthur was supposed to. He seems to have been born and raised in the 21st or 22nd century. This might be ok if you allow for reincarnation. However, there are indications that this Arthur is going to make another appearance in book two or perhaps book three of the trilogy--I bet that this time he won't be reincarnated, but will actually return. There were a couple of minor quibbles. The quarantine asteroid that the crew of The Sword were originally taken to was three light-hours away from where The Sword was originally detected. Excuse me. Three hours away at non-hyperspace speed. This could have been quite a bit further if you allow for relativistic time-contraction, of course, but that doesn't fit too well with the rest of the story. Anyway, three hours is awful close. Similarly, the exploration method of the Sword seemed pretty silly. The ships were run out to somewhere between one and several hundred light years in hyperspace, then dropped back to normal space, accelerated to almost light speed, and went cruising through star systems looking for stars with inhabited or inhabitable planets. Keneally seems to think that stars are much closer together than a light year. The Keltic worlds orbit around six stars. These seem to be the only six stars contained within the curtain wall. Unlikely, i'd think-- that the only six stars in a region of space should all have inhabitable planets. I get the feeling the Keneally (sp?) doesn't really understand galactic dimensions. Too bad. All the aliens we encountered were human. There were some non-human intelligences mentioned, but we never saw any. There are indications that humans and the Sidhe are interfertile, so the Sidhe should probably also be classed as human. The Kelts are quite tall--circa 7 feet. Most tall people I know of seem to have knee or ankle problems--the Kelts didn't. Their planet is supposed to have a slightly lighter gravity than Earth--maybe that explains it. There were some differences between these Kelts and what I thought I knew about the historical Kelts. These don't keep slaves, they ride horses, their art is said to be only representational (not abstract). Their castles sound more like Norman castles. It said in the book that these people returned to Earth from time to time until the 20th century, and appropriated things that they liked, so maybe that explains it. It said in the book that the FTL drive was almost ridiculously simple, but it implied that the fifth century Kelts built their own spaceships. The FTL drive may be simple, but I suspect that life support wouldn't be. Anyway, you could look upon that as selective memory--more likely the Kelts found a cache of Atlantean space ships (the hyperdrive seemed too slow for the low-tech spaceship--an air-tight barrel with a hyperdrive). I guess you could always wave your hands and say magic. Oh well. Portions of the book were fun, but it had problems. Part of the problem might have been that i was expecting something along the lines of _The High Crusade_, which was clearly unfair on my part. david rickel decwrl!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 87 17:32:00 GMT From: webb.applicon!webb@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: The "New Ace Science Fiction Specia I just purchased 'The Hercules Text' yesterday, and am quite dissapointed with it. The characterization was a bit on the male-chauvanist side (women always "smiling prettily"; a good deal of description of the physical attributes of women, and none of those of men), but not as bad as some I've seen. The plot was standard 'first-contact' with variations. What really bothered me though, was one of the plot devices: ******spoilers follow****** Some time in the near future (198x-199x) a group analogous to SETI, picks up siganls that, due to their nature, can only have come from an intelligent source. Instead of some form of universally understandable communication, like mathematical or chemical formulas, it turns out that the aliens are transmitting a computer program. Now this is no ordinary computer program, the brilliant theoretical physicist deduces, but rather one that, when loaded into a digital computer and analyzed for statistical patterns (as one might do to an alien transmission to try and learn their language), will start itself up, and display some message on the screen, or do whatever. It is established that the word length is 16 bits. However, when that is tried on a mainframe computer, nothing of import happens. The following exchange (paraphrased) then ensues: Brillant theoretical physicist (BTP): We've tried that on all of our larger machines but to no avail. I'm begining to wonder if a self-initiating program is possible at all. Extremely well liked administrator (EWLA): (Glancing at personal computer on BTP's desk): Wait a minute. I don't know much about computers, but I do know that larger ones are more complicated. They have more places to put things and more instructions are needed to make them run. BTP (Following EWLA's glance): Do you mean to tell me that a personal computer can do things that a mainframe can't? EWLA: It's worth a try... BTP runs out of the room and returns with an Apple Computer (why he didn't use the one on his desk is unknown). He inserts the disk containing the alien transmission, then exclaims: But we don't have any search programs on this machine! EWLA: Well, rewrite them! BTP grimices at the thought of how long that will take. Astronomer(genius) (A(g)) (who has been watching all along): Wait a second. He leaves the room and returns with another disk: Star Trek. It's been around here for ages and it includes a section which allows the Enterprise to analyze the Klingon tactical positions. BTP: What the hell, let's give it a try. And they do. Not suprisingly, the alien's program wakes up, takes over the screen, flies the Enterprise around (all characters say: It doesn't do this in the game!) and shows them some sort of rotating cube. So, we are asked to believe that: 1. The idea of a self-initiating program actually makes sense. 2. A race of beings who have never had contact with the people to whom they are sending a message, elect to send said message in the from of a computer program, expecting that program to run on a system which they know nothing about. 3. This program, once started, is able to control output devices like graphic screens, and generate sophisticated displays with them. Not only that, but it is able to modify existing executables and merge itself with them. The worst thing of it is, the aliens are sending an executable, ie a binary image, rather than a source file. I cannot accept this. It is barely possible that the aliens might send a source file, and instructions for writing a compiler for it, but an executable???!!! Sorry. This seems like a 1950's conception of a computer, and its capabilities, and I'm sorry the author is burdened with it, for it makes the book (for me at least) unreadable. I am, by the way, a software engineer. Peter Webb. {allegra|decvax|harvard|yale|mit-eddie|mirror}!ima!applicon!webb, ...!ulowell!applicon!webb ...!raybed2!applicon!webb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Apr 87 1158-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #156 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Apr 87 1158-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #156 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 16 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 156 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 24 Mar 87 08:31:10-EST From: Daniel Burstein Subject: warp speed limitations A possible explanation for the mixed and inconsistent warp speed limitations: 1: the engines themselves are generally the limiting factor, tending to overheat when run steadily at warp 8 (although they can slip this high for a short period) 2: Above warp 8, the deflector shields start to get overloaded by micrometeors (NOT meteorites- the "ites" refers only to such when they impact the Earth) and other space debris. This occurs at different rates of speed depending on the amount of "garbage" in the area. Accordingly, areas near a star system or close by a planet are dirtier, and force the ship to go relatively slowly. Interstellar areas are better, and inter-galactic are the best. This is why the group from Andromeda was able to push the ship ever faster... 3: The final limitation occurs above warp 11, in which the ship structure itself starts decompensating Danny Burstein d-burstein @ cutc20 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 87 17:02:23 EST From: Mike Garcia Subject: Universal Translator in Star Trek IV I don't think that there needs to be any problem with the Universal Translator not working with the Probe in Star Trek IV. Conceptionally the machine would require feedback to allow it to learn the language it is trying to communicate in. Perhaps the Probe, which was sent to communicate with whales in the Earth's oceans was not interested in (programmed to?) teaching space- or land-creatures to speak whaleish. Just because it was massive does not mean that the Probe had to have more than a limited intelligence. Consider the "intelligence" of a cruise missile for example. The impression I got was that the Probe's Creators could not conceive of any sapient life form that did not live in oceans. Notice that the Probe's Creators did not come themselves, rather they sent a robot emissary. I felt that the Probe's Creators had been communicating with other intelegences for a long time, but that the Probe was one of first attempts to "go and see", prompted by the loss of communication with the Earth's whales. Also I don't think the Probe's Creators had hands (claws, tentacles, etc.). See how much can be read in the tea leaves if you are willing to suspend disbelief. Mike Garcia MTG@CORNELLC ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 87 16:31:00 GMT From: webb.applicon!webb@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Universal translators and Whalespea From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU >In ST4(Whales etc.), why the hell didn't they just use their magic >universal translator to interpret the probe's probing? I saw Leonard Nimoy speak at MIT on Tue, Mar 17, and in the question and answer period that followed his talk, he addressed this very point. He wanted to make a point about the mystery of the universe, and the unlikelyhood that we, as a race, will ever be able to understand all of it. It is only arrogance, Nimoy claimed, to believe that the concepts upon which the probe's language is based have any analogue in human society. In other words, there is more that just the language barrier to consider when trying to translate an alien language; a common set of semantic devices (by which I mean concepts that carry meaning) must exist as well. In a lighter vein, he also raised the question of the cinematic or dramatic problem that translation would pose: "What would you like it to have said? 'Hi! Been looking for you! Wherever have you been?'" (paraphased) This got a good laugh out of the audience. This brought up SETI, of course, and he claimed that while he had no objections to it, he did think it was arrogant of us, and did not expect much in the way of communication ever to arise from it, though the knowledge that we are not alone might in itself be worth the effort. >... If the UT could be made to communicate with a gaseous cloud >("Metamorphosis") that didn't even appear to have *LANGUAGE*, >surely it could also be made to speak whalespeak (whalish? >whalese?). but given a universal translator as a premise, anybody >got any speculations? I claim that the inconsistency between "Metamorphosis" and STIV exists, like many others, because the creative process that generated Star Trek has been overseen by many different people, all of whom have their own beliefs about how the technology will work, and most of whom failed to check earlier shows for precedents or didn't care about consistency. Peter Webb. {allegra|decvax|mit_eddie|utzoo}!linus!raybed2!applicon!webb {amd|bbncca|cbosgd|wjh12|ihnp4|yale}!ima!applicon!webb ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 21:29:09 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (rich kolker) Subject: Star Trek: The Next Generation (Not the gay discussion) Okay all you fans out there.... Before we start picking apart STTNG (Star Trek: The Next Generation for you spell-it-out fans), let's all work from the same set of information. The following is a greatly edited version of the unofficial STTNG info archives, as collected by Shoshanna Green, edited and and places corrected by me, and contributed to by a collection of people, mostly by email exchange. Since David Gerrold has now revealed (almost) all of this in public, we feel free to post. To the best of my knowlege (and my knowlege is pretty good) this is accurate stuff. The current shooting date is the first week of June (info courtesy Susan Sackett). By the way, almost all of this information has been confirmed by one of the following three people within my earshot 1) Gene Roddenberry, 2) David Gerrold, 3) Susan Sackett. The change from Macha Hernandez to Tanya Yar for the Security Chief comes from a letter from Gene Roddenberry dated March 13th, and is the only change not in David's latest Starlog piece. Gene didn't say I couldn't pass it on, so I will. Finally, a request.... PLEASE do not hassle the folks at the ST offices about this, by mail or any other way. They are VERY, VERY busy trying to put out the best Star Trek they can. Once the show airs, they're fair game, but until then, cool it. If anyone has anything to add (that is well confirmed...and more current) feel free to join in. So, without any further ado..... The show should be on the air in fall 1987. It is being done directly for syndication, not for a network; this means that Paramount has direct control over it instead of having to do whatever the network owning it wants, but also means that they have to spend their own money instead of a network's to make each episode. The series will be offered first to the stations which have carried the old Star Trek all these years, as a sort of "thank you" to them. Many may not be able to afford it; Gerrold says that they will be able to buy the series with commercial time, which Paramount will then turn around and sell, if they can't come up with the cash. The new series will take place 150 years after the original Enterprise's famous "five year mission". At the time of the first Enterprise, four percent of the galaxy had been charted (note that that's "charted", NOT "explored" or "visited".) 150 years later, the Federation has charted nineteen percent of the galaxy. That's an _astounding_ amount of space, folks, but still leaves plenty of unknown territory. The Enterprise is about twice the size of the original Enterprise; Gerrold says that they will be looking at only professionally submitted scripts, i.e. get an agent and have her/him do all the right things; _don't_ just mail it in. They are planning to film two two-hour shows; the best will be the first, kick-off episode and the other will be shown sometime during the season. They have contracted for twenty-six hours of show. "The redesign [of the Enterprise] has already been finalized and those who have seen Probert's new design say we will probably love it as much or more than the old versions. The ship itself is to be much easier to use, with the semi-sentient computers handling most of the chores previously handled by the crew. Gerrold said, 'If the Captain orders the ship to, say, Warp 11, the ship might respond 'I am not designed for that speed.' 'Do it anyway.' 'All right.' Essentially this means a smart ship capable of a certain amount of self-initiative; just how much remains to be seen. The improved technology also means that the problems, and their solutions, will devolve [sic] from the logic of the situation rather than because this or that piece of machinery doesn't work." "The new ship will have a mission length of 10 years instead of 5. Because of this, the crew's families will be on board with them, hence the larger ship to support them. "The stories are all in the planning stages but a decision has been made to try to avoid the baggage (Klingons, Romulans, etc.) of the original series and movies to try to form new methods and cultures to enrich what has gone before. Essentially they want to re-invent Star Trek, to make it as fresh and innovative as it originally was designed to be, while maintaining the essence, the hope for the future which is Star Trek." SEEKING THE FOLLOWING SERIES REGULARS: CAPT. JULIAN PICARD -- A caucasian man in his 50's who is very youthful and in prime physical condition. Born in Paris, his gallic accent appears only when deep emotions are triggered. He is definitely a 'romantic' and believes strongly in concepts like honor and duty. Capt. Picard commands the Enterprise. He should have a mid-Atlantic accent, and a wonderfully rich speaking voice. NUMBER ONE (AKA WILLIAM RYKER) -- A 30-35 year old caucasian born in Alaska. He is a pleasant looking man with sex appeal, of medium height, very agile and strong, a natural psychologist. Number one, as he is usually called, is second-in-command of the Enterprise and has a very strong, solid relationship with the Captain. LT. COMMANDER DATA -- He is an android who has the appearance of a man in his mid 30's. Data should have exotic features and can be anyone of the following racial groups: Asian, American Indian, East Indian, South American Indian or similar racial groups. He is in perfect physical condition and should appear very intelligent. LT. TANYA YAR -- 26 year old woman of Ukranian decent who serves as the starship's security chief. She is described as having a new quality of conditioned-body-beauty, a fire in her eyes and muscularly well developed and very female body, but keeping in mind that much of her strength comes from attitude. Macha has an almost obsessive devotion to protecting the ship and its crew and treats Capt. Picard and Number One as if they were saints. LT. DEANNA TROI -- An alien woman who is tall (5'8" - 6') and slender, about 30 years old and quite beautiful. She serves as the starship's Chief Psychologist. Deanna is probably foreign (anywhere from Italian, Greek, Hungarian, Russian, Icelandic, etc.) with looks and accent to match. She and Number One are romantically involved. Her alien "look" is still to be determined. WESLEY CRUSHER -- An appealing 15 year old caucasian boy (need small 18 or almost 18 year old to play 15). His remarkable mind and photographic memory make it seem not unlikely for him to become, at 15, a Starfleet acting-ensign. Otherwise, he is a normal teenager. BEVERLY CRUSHER -- Wesley's 35 year old mother. She serves as the chief medical officer on the Enterprise. If it were not for her intelligence, personality, beauty and the fact that she has a natural walk of a striptease queen, Capt. Picard might not have agreed to her request that Wesley observe bridge activities; therefore letting her son's intelligence carry events further. LT. GEORDI LaFORGE -- a 20-25 year old black man, blind from birth. With the help of a special prosthetic device he wears, his vision far surpasses anything the human eyes can see. Although he is young, he is quite mature and is best friends with Data. Please do not submit any 'street' types, as Geordi has perfect diction and might even have a Jamaican accent. Should also be able to do comedy well. The Enterprise is now NCC-1701D (not G or H), the fifth in the series of starships by that number. Episodes are about 45 minutes (of actual story) long. D.C. Fontana's title is Associate Producer. Writers with episodes committed to include Gene, David, DC (she's writing the kickoff), John DF Black, Bob Justman, Diane Duane, Lan O'Kun. A line producer (Robert Kewin) has been signed. His past experience includes James at 15(16) and Paper Chase, so he's no slouch. The rest of what David said I already knew, so rather than repeat it, I'll assume you do too. Speaking of which, D.C.'s title is Associate Producer and she's writing the first episode which could be 1) 2 hours long 2) 90 min long with 30 min "making of STTNG" 3) 60 min long with 60 min "making of STTNG" 4) Just another 60 min episode Other writers committed to are: Gene David (a horror story) John DF Black Bob Justman Diane Duane & (name escapes me) Lan O'Kun Arthur Sellers The decision has been made that in the first season, only experienced TV writers will be used, leaving out several David had promised a shot to, such as Howard Weinstein and Len Wein. The art director is Herman Zimmerman. Illustrators are Rick Sternbach and Andy Probert. Costume Designer is Bill Theiss. The original Alexander Courage theme will be used, plans are to still split the infinitive, but to change the last line to: "...to boldly go where no ONE has gone before" And the biggest news, in the 24 1/2 or 25th (david says they haven't decided yet) century, they've invented FUSES! No more exploding bridge panels (Unless like in real life, the chip blows to protect the fuse :-)) Lastly there was some shots of the script Gerrold was writing/had written which had the following dialog (thanks to stop action VCR): wait. Silence from the communications Troi finally shakes her head. TROI my thought was received. (Bu)t there was no response. PICARD No rejection? DATA Captain, it may be the aliens do not consider us as anything a nuisance PICARD haven't fired on us DATA Here's most of what's been released about the behind-the-scenes people at ST:The Next Generation. You should recognize a lot of names if you've been a fan for a while. Exec. Prod - Gene Roddenberry Supervising Prod. - Eddie Milkis Producer - Bob Justman Line Producer - Robert Kewin (credits include James at 15/16 and other good stuff) Assoc. Prod. - D.C. Fontana Something or other - David Gerrold (seriously, he doesn't have a title) Art Director - Herman Zimmerman Illustrators - Andy Probert and Rick Sternbach Costumes - Bill Theiss Scripts assigned D.C. Fontana (1st episode) Gene Roddenberry David Gerrold ('Blood and Fire') Diane Duane/Michael Reeves Arthur Sellers Lan O'Kun John DF Black Bob Justman By the way, the Enterprise is 1701D (as in David, or D.C.) as of Boskone. The hispanic female security chief David mentioned at Boskone is now Ukranian. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Apr 87 1213-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #157 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Apr 87 1213-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #157 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 16 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 157 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Apr 87 10:18:42 EDT From: dee@CCA.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) To: KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: Boskone > ... In the sense that 1500+ people who want to attend will not be >allowed to attend, SOME form of "discrimination" is needed. I >think the fairest way to do this is to let each person decide for >himself how much attending Boskone is worth to him. > >Isn't this at least as fair as "discriminating" against people who >have not attended three Boskones (I have attended two) and who have >not purchased any art ... >> [An auction] does not work very well due to problems with hotel >> reservations, travel plans, and just plans in general. It would >> bias things towards those with lots of idle time who would not >> care if they did not know what they were doing that weekend until >> just a month or two before. >True. But so does the present system. The present system provides relatively little bias in terms of the lower pre-registration rate and that is justified in that it is much easier and more efficient to spend known amounts of money in hand and much harder and less efficient to spend unknown amounts of money that may appear during a weekend. Consider how few at the door registrations there could have been if Boston had been hit by a blizzard. >It would be best if NESFA had a good idea just how many people >would want to attend at each possible membership price. They could >then set the price to whatever 2000 people are willing to pay. ... I admit that my initial response was too simplistic. Actually I have no personal problem with monetizing people's desires but there are a lot of other factors involved. Presumably there is an amount of money that would make the Sheraton Boston happy to have a Boskone like Boskone 24 every weekend. Presumably there is an amount of money that would make most of the people who did the work to put on Boskone 24 happy to do it again, even if they thought that most of the attendees being attracted were *ss h*l*s. But it's pretty hard to figure out how to simultaneously optimise over the amount different people are willing to pay to attend Boskone and the radically different costs imposed on Boskone and the hotel by different attendees. Clearly the effect of the policies being adopted, including the categories of prefered attendees, are fairly crude but there are also costs associated with yet more complex policies for less crude discrimination or for research to determine with greater precision what the effect of various policies will be. Many people consider the quality of Boskones art show to be a major feature. Currently this is more or less self polcing as Boskone charges a fixed price for display area and no percentage fee. Thus those whose art sells for high prices have an economic incentive to return and those whose art doesn't lose money. With a more than factor of 2 reduction in attendence coming up, biasing attendence towards those interested in purchasing art seems like a reasonable way to keep up the quality of the show for the benefit of all attendees. I think that it is the belief of most voting NESFA members that just auctioning off Boskone membership slots would result in a smaller scale disaster but a disaster none-the-less while the policies adopted have a good chance of producing, in their opinion, a much better and more enjoyable convention. (Presumably many of those discriminated against will be of the contrary opinion.) >Is it certain that Boskone must be made smaller? What about >multiple adjacent small hotels, or a cruise ship, or an outdoor >con? (If held outdoors, it should be moved from February, of >course.) It must be made smaller if it is to be the type of convention that NESFA has voted that it wants to put on. >>> I for one am tired of being made to feel guilty for not offering >>> to help out. >> I don't know how anyone can make you feel guilty if you are not >> so inclined. Most people who work on the convention do so >> because they enjoy doing it, in one way or another, rather than >> because of some feeling of guilt. >I do not feel guilty. I do feel unwelcome. I am now told I am not Glad to hear that you misstated yourself and are not being made to feel guilty. >allowed to attend the next con for any amount of money because I >did Hold on, as I have mentioned several times, you can buy a Boskone 25 membership (and membership in all future Boskones put on by NESFA) right now by buying a Boskone Life Membership for $360. This is 20 times the most recent preregistration rate ($18). Even though pre-registrations are not being accepted, Life Memberships still are. As soon as the new preregistration rate, no doubt considerably higher, is approved, the Life Membership rate will automatically jump to 20 times that unless NESFA votes some further change in its rules. >NOT help out at the last one. It was never my understanding that I >was supposed to. If someone enjoys it, more power to them, but I >enjoy panel sessions, buying books, and conversation. That is what >I paid for and that is what I got. ... It is indeed the case that many of those who attended Boskone 24 are unwelcome at future Boskones. But you sound like the sort of person that is desired. On the hand, most of the attendees of Boskone 24 are probably of the type that NESFA would like back, but most of them is too many to fit at what we are likely to get as facilities. It was recognized that these policies would eliminate many desireable people. If you are willing to do so, I suggest you try to find someone in the preferred categories who knows you personally and see if they can get you in. Donald E. Eastlake, III +1 617-492-8860 ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 87 18:44:03 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (rich kolker) Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon) ANY solution to Boskone's problem is unfair. Based on purely anecdotal (1st person anecdotal, ie. I saw it) evidence, at the cons I have run or been involved with, much more of the trouble with the hotel of the kind cited above is caused by younger "fans" who use the con as an excuse to "go crazy". I AGREE that this is a minority of the younger fans, and that there are people well above the age of 18 who take advantage of the con situation as well. Still, what do you do? The con committee has very limited resource (read: people) to patrol halls at night and prevent the vandalism and rowdyness that does take place at con hotels (August Party's checkbook balance proves it). I was one of those who made the point on the net BEFORE Boskone had to half its attendence that they were not attacking the problem of vandalism and rowdyness directly (and got roundly flamed for it) My personal preference (and one that has worked in the past to lower convention sizes successfully) is to simply limit the number of memberships sold. First come, first served. Not only Balticon (which was well over 3500 when they limited to 2000), but the old New York Star Trek conventions, which cut back from almost 15000 to 6000 in one year. Of course, in the Michael J. Fox generation, ability to pay seems to be popular on the net (kind-of-a-:-)) The conclusion is...nobody will like it no matter what Boskone does. Sorry Don, I think you're fighting a losing battle here, but do keep us informed. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 87 19:51:51 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@rutgers.edu (Royal White) Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon) rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes: >My personal preference (and one that has worked in the past to >lower convention sizes successfully) is to simply limit the number >of memberships sold. First come, first served. Not only Balticon >(which was well over 3500 when they limited to 2000), but the old >New York Star Trek conventions, which cut back from almost 15000 to I guess its time to restate my original opinion, now that it seems that Balticon is a good example of a *LARGE* con cutting its membership and not a small con of 2500 (as someone mentioned) reducing to 2000. The only fair thing to do is what Balticon did: limit memberships to a maximum and keep it first come first served. This action will only discriminate against procrastinators. seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite work: 703-749-2384 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Apr 87 07:59:14 -0800 From: obrien@aero2.aero.org Subject: Boskone Redux What I don't understand is why all these people are screaming about Boskone as if it were the only con in the world. I've been to Boskone and I've been to A LOT of other conventions, and believe me many other cons are more fun. Personal taste, of course, but I know I'm not alone in this opinion. Paradoxically, forcibly shrinking Boskone may make it more fun for those able (read: allowed) to attend, and I'm sure this was in the backs of people's minds when the restrictions were instituted. It should be noted, though, that there are scads and scads of other cons, including some even larger than (recent) Boskone, and I suggest people look closely at them. Those willing to "save up for months to go to Boskone" if memberships were auctioned off (I smell Ayn Rand in the background) should perhaps save up and go to a con in another city. Do something different for a change! You might even find a con committee you like better. Mike O'Brien obrien@aerospace.aero.org {trwrb,sdcrdcf}!aero!obrien ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 02:24:41 GMT From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: Boskone Redux Hmm, this may eventually get back to my attempt to get people to post about what they liked about a con... Seriously, I think there are good reasons for the attraction to Boskone. Some of them will remain for the next few, but some may disappear. Here are some of the things I've found attractive about Boskone which make it my one "sure to fly cross country for" con a year (and yes, I've been and go to cons in many different cities as well). 1) Continuity and excellent organization: Boskone is one of the *very* few cons that you can depend on being consistently well organized. It's hard to explain with examples what this means; it's a lot more obvious when the con is erratic or badly organized. Some of the obvious points are the availability of a t-shirt with art by the Artist GOH every year, a book of mostly unavailable material by the Writer GOH published by NESFA and available for sale, panels that start on time, etc. If you go to a badly organized con, it'll affect you in some manner. I doubt many people who haven't worked/organized a con realize just how well Boskone is organized. But most people who do organize/work realize this; as an example, note that with the exception of a New York bid that dropped out early (and wasn't taken that seriously by many people), Boston had no competition for the right to hold the 1989 Worldcon. Other years in the East Coast rotation have been having 3 or more cities bidding for it. But no one wanted to bid against Boston. Boskone also manages to maintain an identity. Despite changes in personnel in areas, and changes made in emphasis and new ideas, there are few things that Boskone doesn't manage to have a sense of continuity about. Some cons vary so radically that you're never quite sure just what they'll be like from year to year; it depends very heavily on who's running what area. 2) Due to the above organizational skills, and its relative nearness to the New York publishing industry, Boskone has traditionally attracted large numbers of editors and publishers. Having these people there causes writers and artists who might not otherwise show up to show up and do some business over the weekend. And having lots of writers and artists showing up consistantly attracts people. 3) The number and variety of open parties has been increasing over the years. I don't think there's another con in the country that has had the type of parties that Boxboro Fandom has thrown over the years. Themes, good food, good organization, 1500 bodies in a hotel room :-). RPI has been throwing a chocolate party the last few years. Etc. 4) Attention to "special features". While some of these are found at other cons, I don't know of any other than Boskone which have all of these, or even as many. The silent movie with organ accompaniment. Punday. Trivia Bowl. A 2 issue a day newsletter. Discussion groups. A room for gophers with munchies and soda. Continuous pro readings. Etc. 5) Boskone's got Boston. It's been held downtown, and has been very easy to get to by mass transit. MIT's across the river. There are restaurants of every kind within easy access. There are large numbers of technically oriented people in the metro area. This can make things more interesting. Boston's also filled with other things to see and do before and after the con. 6) Boskone is held roughly midway between two year's Worldcon. It's gotten the rep as the "Winter Worldcon". I've *known* that I'll see just about all my East Coast fan friends there. Couldn't say that about any other con. So, Mike, what are the other cons you've been to that were more fun for you, and why were they that for you. And out of curiosity, other than Worldcons, what cons were you thinking of that were larger than recent Boskones? tyg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87 9:29:48 EDT From: "Daniel P. Dern" Subject: Cons, nets, and the limits to growth I've been following the "How big is a Boskone" debate, and would like to offer a few generic comments. Over the years, I've been sporadically involved in a variety of group events -- mostly as an attendee, mind you -- from household dinners to folk festivals to sf conventions. And, in the past few years, network mailing lists and discussion groups. And, over the years, many of these have tended to grow bigger. You get more "alumni" plus a stream of new folk. In the process, several things often happen: It gets to be more hassle and less fun for the organizers. You need more of them. More burn out. You need more and new skills. You have bigger worries, like serious money management, facilities planning, etc. The tenor of the event changes for attendees. You get lost in the crowd. It becomes a bigger, less personal event. You don't get to everything. Facilities often become overstrained -- food, water and bathrooms at folk festivals are a good example. Events which originally were for the "in" crowd become "discovered" by "mundanes." I see the Folk Song Society of Greater Boston struggle with this identity crisis periodically. Additionally: You get trapped by tradition. "Let's do this again -- I always liked [event or activity X]." Things get more expensive. What I'm trying to say is, I don't see NEFSA as "bad guys" here -- nor the attendees. The world has changed, and we gotta face the inevitable. The number of people who want to play has gotten too big. This changes the event. And we've outgrown the facilities. One of the first sf conventions I attended was Boskone '69. There were between 300-400 people, total. Everyone could fit into one (medium large) room. One of the last cons I went to (some years back) was clearly ten+ times this size. (Boskone/WorldCon, I suspect.) Fun, but a crowded madhouse. Folks, we're not gonna please everybody here. Heck, look at the changes the ARPA/usenet groups have had to go through in the past year or so, to accomodate increased #s of participants. I just hope NESFA (and all other organizers, of SF cons, of folk festivals, newsgroup moderators, magazine editors, et cetera) find a way to not burn out, continue having fun, and find acceptable compromises/changes as the only viable alternative to stopping the show altogether. And in any case -- three cheers and a huzzah for all efforts to date! Daniel Dern ddern@ccb.bbn.com ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 17 Apr 87 0828-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #158 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Apr 87 0828-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #158 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 17 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 158 Today's Topics: Books - Brunner & Dickinson & Gibson & Hesse & Summers & Humorous SF (2 msgs) & Playing Fair in Novels & The King in Yellow (4 msgs) & A Story Request & Japanese Books & April Fool Hoax ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Apr 87 16:10:07 EST From: Subject: John Brunner A while ago someone posted a request for a Brunner Bibliography. Has anything come of that? I found most of what I read by him (not much yet) to be very good, but I'm not sure I want to commit myself to many more books the length of _Stand on Zanzibar_ without any sort of preview. So I guess I'll just start my own Annotated bibliography. Here goes: TITLE RATING(1-10) COMMENTS Stand On Zanzibar 8 or 9 Very powerful; good at complex picture of complex society Shockwave Rider 9 All the intensity of the above, shorter; compare with Rand The Sheep Look Up 9 1/2 One of my all-time favorites, but then again I do have an environmentalist bias; don't read this if surrounded by smokers in a Las Vegas Airport. Squares of the City 4 Not as intense, or very believable What Brunner is best at, apparently, is the development of a complex and fast moving (and very screwed up society). In this he reminds me (particularly in _Shockwave Rider_) of Gibson, and some of the ideas of the much discussed cyberpunk "movement". Brunner's world is a good picture of society as a form of mass insanity. If anyone else can add to my list above, please post it, or e-mail to me... if there is interest I will post a compiled list at some later date. Karl DeBisschop kdebiss@athena.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu 16 Apr 87 12:53:20-PDT From: Haruka Takano Subject: The Flight of Dragons It seems that this book by Peter Dickinson is no longer in print (although it appears in the 1986 Books in Print Supplement). Just thought I'd pass this on to anyone else who might be searching for it after reading the discussions about it on this digest. I suggest checking used book stores. By the way, this book was only published in hardback, and I think Harper & Row (at least I think that's what "Har-Row" means) published it in 1979. Haruka Takano Takano@HPLABS.HP.COM ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 87 09:38:57 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Blued Moon kjm@dg_rtp.UUCP (Kevin Maroney) writes: >the humanists focus not primarily on rigorous speculation or glitzy >high-tech but rather on the humans being affected by the >speculation. Are you saying that _Neuromancer_ was about glitzy high-tech and *not* about the humans being affected by the speculation? I believe that the book is *primarily* about the people and the effects on them of the tech. The glitzy backdrop is secondary. This also reflects on the book's merit -- it deals effectively with more then one issue at one time. Gibson himself said that _Neuromancer_ is a book about people and about the multitude of ways they can screw up (their lives). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 87 15:28:41 EST From: Subject: Magic Shop Stories This is not quite a magic shop, but similar enough to merit mention. In _Steppenwolf_ by Herman Hesse there is a jazz club whish appears I think twice in the novel in a fashion similar to the magic shops of Ellison and others. The basic idea is that the "hero" stumbles on this place, goes inside and this somehow changes his life. The he leaves, and tries to find it again, but it's not there. I believe that he somehow stumbles across the club again, but it's been a while, and I've forrgotten most of the details. It's not a great book, but it's good, and reads quick. Karl DeBisschop kdebiss@athena.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 05:49:49 GMT From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Witchcraft writers doug@edge.UUCP (Doug Pardee) writes: > [If you think that the word "witch" only refers to a mythical > woman who turns people into toads in fairy tales, I recommend a > book called "Witchcraft" by a fellow name of Hoyt (sorry, don't > remember his first name). It's published by the University of > Illinois Press. Virtually all writings on the subject are > extremely biased; this one seems to be the most even-handed. > Which isn't to say that it *is* even-handed, just less biased than > most.] I wonder how much consideration you have given to the great scholar of the supernatural and someone who probably was "crazy as a bedbug"... the Reverand Montague Summers. His books on the supernatural are the best sources I have ever found. The story on Montague Summers, as I have heard it, is that he was a Catholic priest who decided that the supernatural was real and that when the Church came to its senses and went back to hunting witches, it would need the best information possible, unimpeachable knowledge, on witchcraft. He then went around collecting folktales, lore, fact, anything he could on the subject of witchcraft and started putting it into books so the knowledge would not be lost. The books he wrote are the real thing. He wrote with all the exciting style of a law book and all the literary license that one would find in the average medical textbook. He was writing books with authority that he hoped Holy Mother Church would accept without embarrassment. And he didn't stop with witches. Among his better books are THE VAMPIRE: HIS KITH AND KIN, THE VAMPIRE IN EUROPE, and THE WEREWOLF. Don't get me wrong. I haven't read all his books. I have only read a few pages of his books at a given stretch. They were not written to be entertaining, they were written to be compendia of knowledge on his subject. Some are more readable than others, but when he tells you how Greek folklore tells you to kill a vampire, you can believe that Greek folklore tells you you can kill a vampire that way. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1987 13:47 EDT From: bruce Subject: humorous s-f While I've read most of the books mentioned thus far, my favorite humorous sf has not been included: the Illuminati series by Wilson and Shea. It's a trilogy, altogether over a thousand pages, and every page has situations and conversations I laugh at every time I read them. The book is a great satire of the paranoid news/beliefs common today, as well as being a weird and pointed commentary on popular philosophies. It challenges the reader's accepted prejudices and even laughs at its own. The end may not be particularly satisfying to everyone, but getting there makes it worth the trouble. I'll probably be flamed for the commentary above, as some of my friends have not found it as hilarious as I have. Read it with an open mind (and a few beers already quaffed), and just have fun. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87 23:39:36 EST From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: Funny SF Here's some I haven't seen mentioned yet: 1) The Kuttner/Moore (as Lewis Padget) stories of Galloway Galgher, a brilliant inventor - when he's drunk. These are collected in _Robots Have No Tails_. Good stuff. 2) Avaram Davidson's Dr. Ezsterhazy (doubtless sp) stories. These are set in the mythical 3rd largest empire in Europe in the late 1900's. It's not quite like our past. There have been some of the early ones collected in book form (_The Enquires of Dr. Ezsterhazy_) which I haven't yet read. The ones I know of were published in Amazing in the last year or two. I remember two that almost had me on the floor. 3) Quite a lot of stuff by Eric Frank Russell. His hugo story Allagamoosa (sp?) for example, or _The Space Willies_. 4) R. A. Lafferty. Some of his stories are sidesplitting. (Some are chilling too - to say that Lafferty is unique is probably not necessary, you'll realize that by the second sentence). 5) _Pandora's Planet_ by Christoper Anvil. The best by an author who's been around a long while, but has never made the big time. Guess what the planet is? 6) Harry Harrison's _Starsmashers of the Galaxy Rangers_. This is the ultimate parody of the E. E Smith type space opera. Also, _The Technicolor Time Machine_ in which a film crew hopes to get cheap epic footage by filming the Viking discovery of America. 7) Spider Robinson's "Half an Oaf", in an Analog Annual ten or so years ago. No puns, but it doesn't need them. 8) Alexi Panshin's Anthony Villers series (hopefully to be completed some day...). 9) "And He Built a Crooked House" by Heinlein. Architecture meets geometry. Enjoy Ted Nolan ted@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87 22:55:13 EST From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: River and ring worlds (playing fair) The recent postings about Farmer's Riverworld brought to mind a pet peeve I had about those books, and with Niven's _Ringworld Engineers_. In both cases, we learn that a lot of what we were toldin the first books is false. What made that especially annoying in both of these cases, was that I had the distinct impression that both Farmer and Niven beleived the initial information when the first books were written and later changed their minds. Anyone else feel this way? It ruined _Ringworld Engineers_ for me and I lost all interest in the Riverworld series. Ted Nolan ted@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 10:47:35 PDT (Friday) Subject: The King In Yellow (Story Request) From: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM Cc: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM, haste#@andrew.cmu.EDU, Cc: reed!soren@rutgers.EDU, stuart@CS.ROCHESTER.EDU > Yes! The story is by James Blish. I believe it appears in a > collection of fantasy stories entitled "Alchemy and Academe", > edited (I think) by Anne McCaffrey and someone else. > >I can confirm that the Blish story appears in "Alchemy and Academe". Looks like the name of the story slipped through the cracks: "More Light" by James Blish. This story intrigued me. Because of it, I sought out "The King In Yellow" and read it, and was disappointed. Chambers pales before Lovecraft and Watson. Perry Caro caro.osbunorth@xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 02:48:28 GMT From: c60a-4er@tart20.BERKELEY.EDU (Class Account) Subject: Re: Story Request The story about the unreadable play "The King In Yellow" is in Anne McCaffery's _Alchemy and Academie_. If you find out about the Mythos names in Marion Zimmer Bradley's works (also in Paul Edwin Zimmer's--I think he's her brother) I'd love to hear the explanation. It's puzzled me for years. Mary K. Kuhner ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 23:04:56 GMT From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: The King In Yellow (Story Request) Perry_A._Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM writes: >This story intrigued me. Because of it, I sought out "The King In >Yellow" and read it, and was disappointed. Chambers pales before >Lovecraft and Watson. MOSTLY I agree with you. However, a few of the stories in "The King In Yellow" are classic horror pieces, I think. Most especially "The Yellow Sign," which is subtly nasty in a very Lovecraftian way. Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Apr 87 13:52:10 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Carcosa, etc To: stuart@CS.ROCHESTER.EDU From: stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) > This makes at least five authors who have used the King in Yellow > or Hali/Carcosa in some form or another. The Illuminatus Trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea mentions them, in the context of the "Cult of the Yellow Sign", which is said at one point to be the secret society behind the Bavarian Illuminati. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Thu 16 Apr 87 08:46:09-EST From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA Subject: Funny juvenile story request The story is funny, not the request... Anyway, I remember a story called "Sam (somebody) on the Planet Framingham(?)". I'd like to know the author's name so I could get a copy to 1) reread and see if it is still funny and 2) if so, give it to my son to get him off the Atari for five minutes. I remember this story as being wildly silly, sort of a juvenile Hitchhiker's Guide type story. Anyone else remember this one? Scorp ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 07:07:57 GMT From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) Subject: Re: Japanimation items sought. tim@reed.UUCP (T. Russell Flanagan) writes: > While in Japan, I bought numbers 1 and 2 of AKIRA, published by > Young. These thick (2-3 cm) softcover books seem to be > compiltions of a monthly feature in some other Young publication, > and come out every few years. I would really like to get number 3 > when it comes out, but I don't know if it is available in the US > at all. Anybody have any ideas? Well, one place that might carry softcover comic books (yes, they don't look at all like U.S. comic books do they ?!) would be stores catering to Japanese nationals living in the U.S. Such stores would include Japanese food shops or bookstores. I remember that while living in San Francisco, there was a large Japanese area in downtown San Francisco where there were a lot of Japanese food stores and huge bookstores. They carried a lot (I mean *a* *lot*) of Japanese comic books there. I don't know about Portland but if you're in a city with a large Japanese population, there's bound to be some shops catering to them (and perhaps even a small "Japantown"). Check those shops out and you might find what you're looking for, and maybe other things worth looking at as well! Eiji Hirai USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081 phone: (215)328-8449 (this phone is till May '87)| UUCP: {seismo!bpa, ihnp4!bpa, rutgers!liberty}!swatsun!hirai ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 87 02:58:58 GMT From: harvard!linus!watmath!looking!brad@rutgers.edu Subject: APRIL FOOL! Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Subject: Saberhagen leonard@percival.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes: >You might just try checking your facts before posting such >accusations to the net. > >I'm not sure when Saberhagen started writing the stories but I was >reading them as early as the late 60's! They *far* predate >Battlestar Galactica. I have truly enjoyed the volumes of mail and posted news that I have received concerning my Berserker hoax. Particularly amusing have been the postings that read "check the dates, check the dates!" Well folks, it's excellent advice. But before you give it to the net, take it yourself. The date of the posted article was April 1, 1987. I thought I would post this little note so that people would stop putting replies on the net. The point -- that people are amazingly adept and not thinking before they post -- has been enjoyably made. I won't list the names of those who had the wisdom to "correct" me by mail. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 17 Apr 87 0904-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #159 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Apr 87 0904-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #159 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 17 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 159 Today's Topics: Films - Japanimation & Film Request (2 msgs) & Battlefield Earth & Another Request & Good SF Movies (10 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Apr 87 18:10:43 GMT From: ritcv!sds5044@rutgers.edu (Steven D. Smith) Subject: Some Japanimation Questions. Here are some questions: 1. Is there a sequel to the movie SUMMER MACROSS 84 ? 2. Does anybody know about the GEMMA WARS video? 3. Are there any good Japanimation books out now. Steven D. Smith ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 87 20:35:53 GMT From: cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) Subject: Killer "Computer" Movie Spoiler (was Re: Miscellaneous Subject: Mumblings) jtn@potomac.UUCP (John T. Nelson) writes: > Perhaps someone out there can help ME with a movie that I recall > seeing on television in my childhood. It was previous to 1968 > (arprox 1966) and none of my friends who are movie and SF buffs > are able to identify it. Are you up to a challenge? Can you > identify THIS movie from my rather sketchy and obtuse description? > > The film featured a giant super-duper computer called "The > Unitron." The name alone dates the film. After its activation, > people are found dead. MURDERED! But by whom (or what?). I > distinctly recall the image of one dead person found underneath a > door with the pneumatically controlled door still banging up and > down on top of him (or her). Pretty grisly huh? > > At the end of the movie the scientists gathered around the main > console of the Unitron (with Irwin Allen blinky lights in the > background) for the final whodoneit scene. One of the scientists > announces that he knows who the murderer is and it ISN'T the > machine. Better yet the machine knows and will now tell us all, > and the typewriter style console prints out the name of the > scientist that did the dirty work. > > That's it. Can YOU name this movie? Could it possibly be "Paper Man"? This movie was essentially a murder mystery that used the computer as a plot gimmick; no real SF. Plot goes something like this: programmers decide to defraud a company by creating an "employee" who exists only on paper, so that they can collect the bogus paychecks. The scam goes fine, until one of the programmers is killed. Evidence points to their paper creation as the killer. The computer on which the "paper man" exists controls all the local electronics: doors, lights, telephone, etc. Others die; one, possibly the pneumatic door victim you recall, is killed after running for the elevator out of the basement. As she (I think) runs down this long hall toward the elevator (we're looking toward the elevator, so she's running away from us), the corridor lights behind her blink out, one by one, until there's this little square of light at the end of the hall, where she's pounding on the door. In the end, the killer is revealed to be, not the machine, but some escaped murderer who saw the paper employee's identity as a perfect new identity for himself. I remember being scared by the body of the film and let down by the ending. Is this it? Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!rutgers!elbereth!cje ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 87 01:58:59 GMT From: seismo!sundc!potomac!jtn@RUTGERS.EDU (John T. Nelson) Subject: Re: Killer "Computer" Movie Spoiler (was Re: Miscellaneous Subject: Mumblings) cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) writes: > jtn@potomac.UUCP (John T. Nelson) writes: >> Perhaps someone out there can help ME with a movie that I recall >> seeing on television in my childhood. It was previous to 1968 >> (arprox 1966) and none of my friends who are movie and SF buffs >> are able to identify it. Are you up to a challenge? Can you >> identify THIS movie from my rather sketchy and obtuse >> description? > > Could it possibly be "Paper Man"? This movie was essentially a > murder mystery that used the computer as a plot gimmick; no real > SF. I think the Paper Man was made somewhat after 1968 wasn't it? At any rate I don't think this is it. The movie I'm thinking of pictured the computer and the people who worked with it as research scientist types with lab coats. The whole bit. KInd of like "Time Tunnel" goes murder mystery. One of my friends DID mention Paper Man as a possibility but the imagery of Paper Man doesn't seem right. You never saw HOW the person got killed.... only that the body was under the pnuematic door. A very vivid image. Not frightening... but powerful as I recall. Good try though! John T. Nelson Advanced Decision Systems 1500 Wilson Blvd #600; Arlington, VA 22209-2401 (703) 243-1611 UUCP: seismo!{sundc,doqlci}!potomac!jtn Internet: jtn@ads.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 01:38:19 GMT From: ames!amdahl!drivax!davison@rutgers.edu (Wayne Davison) Subject: Battlefield Earth: the movie (Was: L. Ron Hubbard) The recent discussion of _Battlefield Earth_ brings a question to my mind. Whatever happened to the BfE movie that was promised on the softcover edition? It has been at least two years hasn't it? And still no movie! Has the concept been canned? Put on hold? Anyone know what's going on? Wayne Davison ...!ihnp4!amdahl!drivax!davison ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87 12:39:50 EDT From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: anybody remember this one? I was just thinking about all the old sf movies I used to watch on TV way back in grammar school. One of them stuck out but I cannot recall its name. The basic plot is set in Earth's future with a spaceship about to be launched from a space station. The crew is a family, mother & father, brother & sister. The ship is supposed to travel close to the speed of light. While the ship will travel in space for 1 year, 16 years or so will pass by on Earth. The family leaves their dog behind with some official person, and depart. Their journey involves various things including being trapped near a star that burns out their engines, but repairs are managed in time. the end of the show sees the ship plunging into a rotating black hole and emerging in another universe. Does anyone else remember this movie, its name or when it was made? ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 87 15:02:20 GMT From: seismo!gatech!mcdchg!chinet!megabyte@rutgers.edu (Mark E. From: Sunderlin) Subject: *GOOD* SF Movies We all know that some of the worst filmmaking ever done has been done in the name of "Science Fiction". Plan Nine from Outer Space is an example. But, what are the well done intelligent SF movies? As a start, I consider _The Quiet Earth_ an Australian SF movie from last year to be quality SF movie. If you haven't seen it, DO SO. It is the most intelligently done SF movie I have seen in years. It has humor, drama, and give you much to think ans speculate about at the end. SEE IT. What other SF movies are there? Mark E. Sunderlin (202) 634-2529 UUCP: seismo!why_not!scsnet!sunder ihnp4!chinet!megabyte Mail: IRS PM:PFR:D:NO 1111 Constitution Ave. NW Washington,DC 20224 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 03:23:17 GMT From: dykimber@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies megabyte@chinet.UUCP writes: >We all know that some of the worst filmmaking ever done has been >done in the name of "Science Fiction". Plan Nine from Outer Space >is an example. > >But, what are the well done intellegent SF movies? As a start, I >consider _The Quiet Earth_ an Australian SF movie from last year to >be quality SF movie. If you haven't seen it, DO SO. It is the >most intellegently done SF movie I have seen in years. It has >humor, drama, and give you much to think ans speculate about at the >end. SEE IT. > >What other SF movies are there? The Quiet Earth WAS well done, I was just upset that the major points of plot had to be so ridiculous. As for other SF movies, two of my favorites are: Silent Running, with Bruce Dern: a classic among classics, it predates 2001 and it's just...well, a must see. Blade Runner, with Harrison Ford: just because it's popular doesn't mean it's not good! Some of the best cinematography I've seen in an SF film. Especially the scene with where Zora is retired. Based on the awesome book, "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" by the late, great Philip K. Dick. The Kubrick film of A Clockwork Orange probably belongs on a list like this too, though I wasn't that crazy about it. Malcolm McDowell was great in it. Also, I saw Logan's Run for the first time recently, on video tape, and while I suspect people who saw it when it came out ['76?] might disagree, I'd say that it was almost one heck of a movie. I think that one of the problems with SF movies has been that they frequently do fantastic jobs of one or two aspects, then screw up some or all of the rest. For instance, Dune had the most fantastic visuals, but was otherwise the worst movie ever filmed [including home movies, movies taken with the lenscap on, etc.]. And Star Wars was the ultimate SF fairy tale, but didn't exactly provoke thought beyond "'Let the wookie win!' Ha, heh, heh, hee, ho." Hey, while I'm on the subject, anyone want to start a list of SF quotes? You know, the kind that instantly make everyone around you smile, like the one above, or "He's dead, Jim." I love quotes [oops, quotations - so fry me]. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 03:55:50 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies > We all know that some of the worst filmmaking ever done has been > done in the name of "Science Fiction". Plan Nine from Outer Space > is an example. > > But, what are the well done intellegent SF movies? As a start, I > consider _The Quiet Earth_ an Australian SF movie from last year > to be quality SF movie. If you haven't seen it, DO SO. It is the > most intellegently done SF movie I have seen in years. It has > humor, drama, and give you much to think ans speculate about at > the end. SEE IT. For what it's worth, I heartily second _The Quiet Earth_. It is out on video, and we rented it as such a while back. Some of the more obnoxious members of my family, who despise SF, and like fast action (ala cop shows) watched the first 10 minutes and whined to the point that I stopped, rewound, and watched theirs. They left, and I watched it twice. A quiet, very subtle movie...it at first seems as if it could be a loser, but it ISN'T...and yes, it does provoke just a BIT of thought! 8-) As for a few others, some already mentioned, that I recall as pretty good: Soylent Green (of course) Silent Running Rollerball (don't want to get this too long, and I'm out of ideas for good ones just this second....) BAD ones: Damnation Alley (we went over this already) Killdozer (Read the story by Sturgeon- it's pretty good, but the movie stank) Spaceship Space Hunter Ice Pirates (and like that) Incidentally, though I'm not real up on my sat. morning cartoons, anyone seen the new "Adventures of the Galaxy Rangers"? I KNOW what it sounds like- some kiddie krap that rips SF for the hell of it, but it is actually pretty good! It has plot, action, causes some thinking, is well-executed... and best of all... IT AIN'T ANOTHER CARTOON RAMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Eric C. ucdavis!deneb!ccs006 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 13:31:13 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (rich kolker) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies dykimber@phoenix.UUCP (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) writes: >Silent Running, with Bruce Dern: a classic among classics, it > predates 2001 and it's just...well, a must see. It doesn't predate 2001, and I think you overstate a bit, but also one of my favorites. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 23:41:42 GMT From: cmcl2!lanl!hc!hi!vince@RUTGERS.EDU (Vince Murphy [Alien]) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies dykimber@phoenix.UUCP (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) writes: >Silent Running, with Bruce Dern: a classic among classics, it > predates 2001 and it's just...well, a must see. I think Silent Running was made after 2001. Douglas Trumball was the major force behind the movie, though. I liked it. Any movie with Joan Baez on the soundtrack is good enough for me. I would also add "The Man Who Fell to Earth" as another excellent science-fiction movie. David Bowie is great in it. Vincent J. Murphy University Of New Mexico hi!vince@hc.dspo.gov ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 21:19:58 GMT From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies megabyte@chinet.UUCP (Mark E. Sunderlin) writes: > But, what are the well done intellegent SF movies? As a start, I > consider _The Quiet Earth_ an Australian SF movie from last year > to be quality I believe it's actually from New Zealand. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 87 15:25:58 GMT From: faknabe@phoenix.princeton.edu (Frederick Albert Knabe) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies One of the very best science fiction films I have ever seen (in fact, the best) is "Brazil." I couldn't believe that "Back to the Future," which is just fluff, beat it out for the Hugo last year. It just goes to show what people consider "good," I suppose. I'm surprised "Brazil" hasn't already been suggested as a good SF movie; it's not that old (not even 2 years yet). I'm not going to go into why "Brazil" is good; Harlan Ellison has had plenty to say about that in Fantasy and Science Fiction. Fritz Knabe {allegra|ihpn4}!{princton|psuvax1!pucc.bitnet}!phoenix!faknabe ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 16:01:12 GMT From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies The first thing that comes to mind when I think of *good* SF movies is 2001: a Space Oddessy. Next up would be a toss up between *The Day the Earth Stood Still*, *The Andromede Strain* (I know that it was poorly made, but the story is terrific.), and 2010 (I don't like 'The Year We Make Contact'. I prefer Clarke's original 'Oddessy II'.) Honorable mention goes to John Dykstra's *Silent Running*. This just hit me. I've completely forgotten about *Aliens*. I would place it in the top five. cs2633ba@izar.UNM.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 87 21:27:51 GMT From: cmcl2!lanl!hc!hi!vince@RUTGERS.EDU (Vince Murphy [Alien]) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies cs2633ba@izar.UUCP writes: >the Earth Stood Still*, *The Andromede Strain* (I know that it was >poorly made, but the story is terrific.), and 2010 (I don't like >'The Year We Make Contact'. I prefer Clarke's original 'Oddessy >II'.) Honorable mention goes to John Dykstra's *Silent Running*. That should be Douglas Trumball, the effects master of 2001. Vincent J. Murphy University Of New Mexico hi!vince@hc.dspo.gov ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 87 23:04:57 GMT From: maslak@sri-unix.arpa (Valerie Maslak) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies For pretty good ones, how about: Brazil Charley The "Mad Max Trilogy" THX whatever it was Fahrenheit 451 Testament Sleeper Zelig The Last Wave OK,OK, so they aren't all hardware, but there's more to SF than hardware. Valerie Maslak ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 17 Apr 87 0917-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #160 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Apr 87 0917-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #160 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 17 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 160 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15-Apr-1987 1632 From: roberts%utrtsc.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Nigel Roberts, Utrecht, From: Holland) Subject: Conventional restrictions Becky Slocome writes eloquently on the discriminatory ban of under-18s. She convinces me. Excuse me. I'm twenty-nine. I've been to but one convention before in my life. I've been a skiffy fan for about twenty years. I've done some writing. Despite the fact that I'm serious about SF, I'd be excluded from Boskone. I'm offended by that. I'm more offended that teenagers are discriminated in such a way. The convention organisers have never hear of the concept of valuing differences, that's clear. Teenagers may cause problems. They may even cause _more_ problems per capita than the wrinklies. [I'm sorry to say that, but it's just one of those things.] People do behave irresponsibly if they are brought up in surroundings where they are not trusted to behave responsibly. It has been a dream of mine that one day I'd go to one the big American conventions (lke Boskone) and meet people whose work I'd admired over the years. It looks like I don't have to bother. At this moment I have a great deal of understanding for Mike Moorcock who is "well know for his dislike of the social side of SF". Have a good Eastertide Nigel ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 16:43:14 GMT From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!george@rutgers.edu (Geo. R. Greene, From: Jr.) Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was Re: SnobCon) This is basically a retraction. I originally expressed an opinion that NESFA was not trying hard enough to accommodate all the people entitled to attend Boskone. Don Westlake has basically refuted that. I guess there is no real way to give a litmus test of people's interest level in SF before determining whether they should be allowed to buy in. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 87 02:45:26 GMT From: tyg@lll-crg.arpa (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: Conventional restrictions Sigh. Another msg where someone states that they're offended because despite their being "serious about sf", they aren't being allowed to attend next year's Boskone. What's particularly strange about many of these is that the person follows the seriousness statement with a comment about their never having attended a Boskone yet. (side note; while this is in response to a msg from someone in the Netherlands, I sympathize a bit more with someone from Europe who writes this than most. But many Americans are writing it as well.). Once again people, flame and discuss the specific restrictions as much as you want. Personally, I've found some of the points made to be valid ones, and I've tried to respond to those I've considered invalid or misleading. But keep in mind that due to facilities large enough to hold a 4K+ person Boskone not being willing to do so, Boskone will have to cut the number of people attending next year by 50-65%. Given that several *thousand* people who attended this year and presumably would like to attend next year's will not be able to and will presumably be disappointed, can anyone honestly come up with a reason why people who have never attended a Boskone before should be given preference over those who have been attending other than "Well, *I* want to attend and I'm a serious sf fan"? The only possibility that I can think of is an active convention goer who moved from somewhere far away to the Boston area between Feb. 1987 and Feb 1988. That would get some sympathy from me, but I'd still rather see people who have been supporting Boskone to be given preference given that 2-3000 people won't be able to attend and will be disappointed no matter what. tyg ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 19:47:25 GMT From: dayton!viper!ddb@RUTGERS.EDU (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: Boskone Redux tyg@lll-crg.UUCP (Tom Galloway) writes: >1) Continuity and excellent organization: Boskone is one of the >*very* few cons that you can depend on being consistently well >organinzed. It's hard to explain with examples what this means; >it's a lot more obvious when the con is erratic or badly organized. >I doubt many people who haven't worked/organized a con realize just >how well Boskone is organized. But most people who do organize/work >realize this; The traditional description of Boskone, current in the late 70's and early 80's anyway, was that they suppressed all parties and made the films run on time (by analogy to the famous remark about Mussolini). That's overly harsh, but too funny (and apt) to resist completely. As somebody who has been involved working or running a LOT of cons (currently I'm on the Minicon executive committee), let me second the remarks about Boskone being well- organized and consistent, and the implications about how rare that combination is. >3) The number and variety of open parties has been increasing over >the years. I don't think there's another con in the country that >has had the type of parties that Boxboro Fandom has thrown over the >years. Themes, good food, good organization, 1500 bodies in a >hotel room :-). RPI has been throwing a chocolate party the last >few years. Etc. The references to Boskone as a Party con has been driving me not-so-slowly mad. I lived in Boston from 1981 to 1985, attending Boskone's regularly, and had been to several, and to Noreason II (which was just a big Boskone; or else Boskone is just a small Worldcon). Boskone as a party con? It is to laugh. It's only in the last few years that the con suite could be found without a microscope. The Minicon con suite is the whole 22nd floor of the hotel. >So, Mike, what are the other cons you've been to that were more fun >for you, and why were they that for you. And out of curiosity, >other than Worldcons, what cons were you thinking of that were >larger than recent Boskones? I've also had lots more fun at lots of other conventions than Boskone, for various reasons. Partly Boskone's just too big (and I felt this way at 2500 people). You can't find anybody! Partly it's too much a sercon convention (or not enough; I can go either way, but the point in the middle isn't my favorite). I always prefer Minicon to Boskone. I much preferred Midamericon, Byobcon back when they held it, and Torcon II to any Boskone I attended. Even some Windycons have been better. The only non-world cons larger than recent boskones that I know about have been media conventions (star trek, who, etc), which are a whole different universe according to my informants. David Dyer-Bennet UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 23:14:48 GMT From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!george@RUTGERS.EDU (Geo. R. Greene, From: Jr.) Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was Re: SnobCon) Arguing with tom y. galloway > to discuss why NESFA has taken the steps that they've taken. > Well, I've tried to be polite Don't bother; I consider most such efforts wasted. Besides, actions speak louder than words. The polite refutation has already been provided by Don Westlake. If you were really serious about politeness you would let him give you lessons. > But, occasionally, one sentence can sum up an opinion about a > posting quite well. > > George Greene, Jr. is a twit who doesn't have the slightest idea > what he's talking about in regards to how to run an sf convention. I don't recall ever having said a damn thing about how to run an SF convention. Telling people that they should use more than one hotel is not telling them how to solve the problems that that will impose. Just to beat a dead horse into the ground: I DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING about how to run an SF con or any other similar event. This does not stop me from knowing that the lame excuse that "no facility is big enough" is entirely bogus. > 1) Greene states that a previous poster's perception of the > Boskone committee having secret society and incestuous attitudes > is entirely correct, without question. I seriously doubt that > Greene knows any member of the Boskone committee from last year, > or any Boston based member of NESFA. I know many of them. Based on > that knowledge, I'm very sure of my opinion that this is not the > attitude they are trying to convey. The attitude that they claim to have is not terribly relevant, because actions speak louder than words. > One must wonder how Greene obtained his unqualified opinion about > this. As I said, actions speak louder than words. When a group of people know that there is going to be 2x amount of demand for a product, and contrive to ensure that All 1x of themselves will get their demand met, but most of the people who do not belong to the group will not, that is being incestuous, elitist, etc., ad nauseam. Questions about whether they had any alternatives are legitimate, however. > Spirit messages perhaps? That arguably qualifies as SF, although it has even less than the usual tenuous connection with reality needed to escape Fantasy. > Huh? When the motivation is that there is no facility that is > willing to have the con that's physically capable of having a con > of greater than 2,000 attendance? I'd call that pretty relevant. I'd call any concept whatsoever of "facility" irrelevant, as long as you are using the singular. If the facility is too small then you use adjacent facilitIES. That is obviously NOT the real reason. > Wishing won't make it so. But braving the wind and coping with the logistics WILL. It's just a question of whether the organizing committee would rather do that or resort to the elitist wimp-out. > Besides, I, at least, can certainly do without the part of such a > sample which consists of people coming solely for a drunken party. This is really the core point. If these people really do exist and there is a reliable way to screen them, then most of the problems are solved. My personal greatest fear is that there exists, between the irresponsible partiers and the SF lovers, an irreducible amount of overlap. > He then goes on to comment: >>[The committee being forced to cut attendance due to lack of a >>suitable facility] is untrue. People almost always have choices. >>The only absolute requirements are that the con be about SF and be >>held in Boston or Cambridge in spaces vaguely resembling hotels. >>All other requirements are flexible. > > Gee, based on this paragraph, we don't even need a Boskone > committee or staff; that's a flexible requirement! Of course it is. If enough people are feeling shut out and are mad enough about it then they will do exactly that (have an SF con in Boston without the blessing of NESFA's Boskone committee). If they aren't motivated enough to do it, then NESFA hasn't pissed them off very much, so that would prove that NESFA's action wasn't so bad after all. > Just everybody who'd like to go to a Boskone show up next > President's Day weekend at the Sheraton and do a Boskone! I'm really amazed that NESFA hasn't tried this already. They don't have to tell the Sheraton that they're NESFA. They can just arrange to procure (separately) reservations for all of "their" people (fans, pros, dealers, artists, whatever) at the hotel that weekend. Starting now. They could screen by how far in advance people were willing to pay. Whether the Sheraton was willing to "accept" Boskone would then become an entirely moot point. > No, they can't just become a distributed system. Did you know that > the wind chill factor during this year's Boskone was constantly > subzero Farenheit? > > Distributed large cons have been tried before (mostly at > Worldcons). With the exception of this year's Atlanta Worldcon, > (where the hotels were across a 4 lane street from each other), > it's never really worked successfully to my knowledge. I would say that if Atlanta can do it, surely Boston can. But not necessarily in the winter. That is a legitimate problem. > Hell, you don't even know if there's such a geographic situation, > but you're already willing to tell NESFA what's obvious. Well, there either is one or there isn't; my not knowing about it doesn't make it cease to exist. > Well, what's obvious to me, as someone who's helped organize large > sf cons, is that in addition to fighting low temperatures, you'll > have even more problems with people wandering around doing > vandalism and the like. This ridiculous. This is a red herring. This is mixing issues. The problem that we are discussing is not the presence of a minority of vandals. It is the problem of too large a majority of "good" fans. Whatever strategy you use for handling vandals at one sub-site will work equally well at all the others. > Spreading a con over 2 or 3 hotels would probably increase the > load on an already strained con committee more exponentially than > linearly. Why is the con committee strained? If there are 4500 people who want to go, SURELY there must be "enough" who want to plan. I would think that slots on the con organizing committee would be among the most highly prized offices in NESFA. If the con committee is strained I would expect it to be more because of its unwillingness to share clout & credit than because of lack of interest from the membership in contributing person-power to the effort. > A quick obvious one is that you'll probably need larger spaces for > the art show, huckster's room, and large program items than any > single small hotel would have available. The smallest tolerable "large room" is available only in a large hotel? I would humbly suggest looking harder. > Well, fine. Let "them" go ahead. Gee, funny how no one who's > complaining so loudly about the situation is volunteering to do > that. Any group that tries to do a 4,000 person con will run into > exactly the same problems that NESFA ran into when they tried to > schedule next year's Boskone. No, if we run it at the same time, it will only be a 2,000 person con. > based on NESFA's well-deserved reputation in fandom for running > the best organized conventions, I predict a major disaster for any > inexperienced group of people who tries to do so. Convention > running is *work*, particularly *large* convention running. Any > group that tries [that] as their first attempt is asking for > disaster. You're probably right. But I still think there are enough people in the pool with the relevant expertise. [ re shrinking of Boskone being beyond control of NESFA ] > George states: >>This is patently false. There is more than 1 small hotel in >>Boston. > Sorry. George's statement is the one that is false. Well, since I don't believe you, I'll state it again anyway. There is more than 1 [large] small hotel in Boston. Wind chill, committee strain, and 1 large room are Problems that I hadn't thought about; that is part of the reason why I apologized to Eastlake (another part is that he was polite). But these problems would not be insurmountable for any group that was as committed to fairness and bigness as I would expect them to be. Nothing has 1 cause. Biased hotel management is of course one of the contributing factors to my inability to go the next Boskone. But another is simply that the relevant sub-committee of NESFA has drawn a line beyond which they Will Not Suffer Exertion. Claims by the defenders of the committee that it is Out Of Their Hands are simply untrue. > He's made some assumptions that he takes to be facts, without > having any experience to back them up with. The only assumptions that I made were that there existed both 1) a cluster of appropriately-sized hotels, and 2) a group of people willing and able to plan a convention around them in the Boston area. I don't NEED any experience to know that both of those assumptions are true. On the other hand, experience with the wind chill factor might convince me that it wasn't, for the fans, worth the trouble. If the organizing committee claims it's not worth THEIR trouble then it is the wrong committee. > George's style is to be offensive and his substance consists of > figments of an inexperienced imagination. I do not think you should refer to anything as concrete as a cluster of hotels as a figment of my imagination, even if it *is* inexperienced. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 17 Apr 87 0929-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #161 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Apr 87 0929-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #161 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 17 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 161 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Influences on SF (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Apr 87 13:57 EDT From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Hyperdriving under the influence... Has anyone ever compiled a list of all of the elements of STAR WARS tha are lifted virtually intact from other sources? I offer the following example: In the early Seventies, Jack Kirby had a complex interconnecting series of comic book stories that seem to parallel SW very closely. There was Darkseid, who even LOOKED like Darth Vader, who also happened to be the father of the hero, Orion. They even had a mysterious power called "The Source" which was called upon from time to time. Obi Wan Kenobi was replaced by a character called Highfather. It has bothered me for years that while George Lucas rakes in money by the truckload for stolen ideas, Jack Kirby can't make a cent off those very ideas. Let's here some more 'sources' for Star Wars! ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 87 23:43:01 GMT From: oliveb!trash@rutgers.edu (Tom Repa) Subject: Under the influence of Star Wars From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu > Has anyone ever compiled a list of all of the elements of STAR > WARS tha are lifted virtually intact from other sources? I offer > the following example: [ ... text deleted ... ] > Let's here some more 'sources' for Star Wars! I think the best reference for where George got the ideas for Star Wars is "Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell. He is (was?) a anthropologist (socialoligist?psychologist?) who studied the myths of more cultures on this planet then I knew existed. He codified them into a concise "myth cycle" which summed up the basic plot of all adolescent -> adult "Hero" myths. I wrote a paper about it and it is really amazing how closely Star Wars follows this traditional pattern. I think this is one of the reasons that SW was such a big hit. It uses the most basic mythic structure, one that is common to all races and cultures, and tells a story that is almost pure, crystalized myth. If you're into social science fiction, or mythology, you might like Hero with a Thousand Faces. Its a serious, scholarly work, but it is facinating to see how much differnt cultures have in common. It also has a lot of differnt myths from differnt cultures, and some of this is as facinating as any SF( whether you call it "sif", "skiffy" or "sie-fie" or Science Fiction). In other words, I don't think George stole the ideas in SW from anybody. I think he stole them from EVERYBODY. [ n.b. to Mr. Lucas' lawyers: I am not really implying that Mr. Lucas plagerized Star Wars, in whole or in part, from anybody, anywhere. So leave me alone. ] He also author a set of books about myths of the orient, or wasn that part of a set of all the worlds myth? Anyway, it's all great! Tom Repa trash@oliven ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 19:07:28 GMT From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars > I think the best reference for where George got the ideas for Star > Wars is "Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell. He is > (was?) a anthropologist (socialoligist?psychologist?) who studied > the myths of more cultures on this planet then I knew existed. He > codified them into a concise "myth cycle" which summed up the > basic plot of all adolescent -> adult "Hero" myths. Lucas is not the only one to use this as a reference. I suspect if you had access to them, a lot of authors would tell you they've used this as a "reference", either directly or indirectly. Andre Norton said many years ago in an article on how she researches her fantasies and where she gets her ideas that the "Hero with a Thousand Faces" was an invaluable resource, and one she would recommend to anyone trying to write fantasy. Campbell also wrote a massive several volume work called "The Masks of God," compiling various world mythologies, which is still one of the classic works in the field of comparative mythology. Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 21:11:08 GMT From: hi!vince@rutgers.edu (Vince Murphy) Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars > Has anyone ever compiled a list of all of the elements of STAR > WARS tha are lifted virtually intact from other sources? I offer > the following example: I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the scene where Luke finds his uncle and aunt smoldering is a quote from The Searchers. Also, the final scene of the heroes getting their medals is from the Nazi propaganda film Triumph of the Will. Vincent J. Murphy University Of New Mexico hi!vince@hc.dspo.gov ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 20:47:00 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!retief@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star War > As far as Luke's uncle and aunt's death scene, it does have some > elements of "Clementine" in it, but I believe Lucas said it was a > "steal" from the Searchers. Actually, I don't think Lucas has an > original bone in his body. I think that's the interesting thing about Star Wars; although it is essentially a re-hash of a lot of 'old stuff', it stands on its own merit as (I think) a thoroughly enjoyable synthesis. I was sitting here and trying just now to think of some books/movies/etc that have been written in the same way and have been of comparable or greater merit, and I have failed. Can anyone offer other examples? ihnp4!bradley!retief ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Apr 87 11:02:31 EDT From: "Morris M. Keesan" Subject: Star Wars Influences A friend pointed out years ago the similarities to "Sword of Doom", a Japanese movie starring Nakadai Tatsuya (who played the father in "Ran"). In "Sword of Doom", Nakadai plays a swordsman who develops an "evil" sword style, and using this style corrupts him and turns him evil. Or to put it another way, he is seduced by the dark side of the sword. The movie is based on a Japanese novel which was the basis for a different two- or three- part series of movies. Unfortunately, I don't remember the name of the book or the other movies. Personally, I've always been struck by the parallels to the movie version of "The Wizard of Oz". When the good guys hide in their ship, overpower some stormtroopers, and then come out wearing their costumes, I keep expecting one of them to try hiding his tail, and the line of stormtroopers to break into a chorus of "Yo-ee-oh. Yoh-oh." The Jawas can be seen as Munchkins, C3PO as the Tin Man, R2D2 as Toto, Darth Vader as the Wicked Witch of the West, Obi-wan as Glinda, etc. "Pay no attention to those droids behind the curtain. They're not the droids you want." ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 03:37:41 GMT From: dykimber@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star War retief@bradley.UUCP writes: >I think that's the interesting thing about Star Wars; although it >is essentially a re-hash of a lot of 'old stuff', it stands on its >own merit as (I think) a thoroughly enjoyable synthesis. > >I was sitting here and trying just now to think of some >books/movies/etc that have been written in the same way and have >been of comparable or greater merit, and I have failed. Can anyone >offer other examples? Well, though I can't answer your query directly, I have a few relevant things to say that I didn't get in the first time 'round. Many people will, at the drop of a hat, point out that Shakespeare didn't come up with a completely original plot in his life. Other people will, after hours of frustrated writing, complain that there are no new ideas left. This is, in fact, probably true if you interpret it the right way. In any case, the point I am trying to make is that the fact that Star Wars is a re-hash of old stuff is nothing unusual, and in fact nearly everyone who writes steals something from somewhere, whether they know it or not. Incidentally, I just saw Hidden Fortress, which is fantastic, and it is impossible to watch without wrongly anticipating lines like "It seems as though we were made to suffer!" if you've thought about Star Wars in the preceding 24 hrs. Anyhow, Star Wars should be lauded for "stealing" from quality stuff, not gaped at for doing what everyone else is [and should be] doing anyway. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87 12:49:15 EDT From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Re: In case they do make SW-I (Get a Real Planet!) mimsy!eneevax!russell@rutgers.edu (Christopher Russel) writes: > While we're screaming at Lucas to get his act together, how about > telling him to GET A REAL PLANET! Come on! First, it was the > DESERT planet of Tatooine, then it was the ICE planet Hoth, then > it was the FOREST moon of Endor! Please! You would think the > entire universe was filled with single-terrain planets. What's > next? The Ocean planet? The Very-Muddy planet? The > Asphalt-paved planet? Since when do all "habitable" planets have to be Earth clones? It strikes me that single-terrain planets such as those would tend to be the norm. Just take a look at Mars sometime; give it a decent atmosphere and it would be a lot like Tatooine (Why you'd want to do that is another matter entirely :-). Earth is an extremely diversified planet due to its oceans, the tilt of the poles, and its climate patterns. But roll back to the last Ice Age and most of it would look like Hoth. Accelerate the green- house effect and it would look like Dagobah. Sink the continents and it would be your Ocean planet. As a matter of fact, multi-terrain planets like this one are probably the exception rather than the rule. Chip Olson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87 14:59:48 PST From: Marty Cohen Subject: Under even more influences The following are some interesting correspondences that I have noticed. 1. In the 1950's, the Disney studios created a cartoon (taken from an earlier book) called "Pigs is Pigs". In it, a railroad stationmaster is left with two guinea pigs. They are cute, furry, squeak, and reproduce at a tremendous rate. At the end, the stationmaster gets rid of them by placing them on a train and sending them down the line. Remind you of a well-known episode of a SF TV series? 2. Another Disney cartoon (amazing what having a 2-1/2 year old will cause one to see) has Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, and Goofy trying to make a living getting rid of ghosts. During their battles against some ghosts, they get clobbered, doused with water, and covered with molasses and flour. I seem to recall a recent movie ... 3. In the movie "Mad Max" (the first in the series, I think), the hero drives a souped up black car, either Camaro or Firebird. One of the bikers he battles is named "Night Rider". A certain TV series comes to mind. 4. A friend of mine pointed out to me that there are some startling similarities between the music to Star Wars and Superman and a single composition written in the 1930's - I don't remember the composer, but it wasn't John Williams. Oh well, true originality is hard to find. Someone has probably already written this message 2 years ago. Marty Cohen (mcohen@nrtc.northrop.com) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 87 03:32:43 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Under even more influences From: Marty Cohen > 3. In the movie "Mad Max" (the first in the series, I think), > the hero drives a souped up black car, either Camaro or Firebird. > One of the bikers he battles is named "Night Rider". > > A certain TV series comes to mind. Um, it's been asked and answered before, but... The car was a Cortina, made somewhere in the U.K. or Australia. If the latter, it was an Australian Ford, and has a reputation as quite a hot car right from the factory... Was the car in the movie black? I couldn't tell- dirt! 8-) Eric C. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 87 07:21:10 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) Subject: Re: In case they do make SW-I (Get a Real Planet!) >Since when do all "habitable" planets have to be Earth clones? It >strikes me that single-terrain planets such as those would tend to >be the norm. Just take a look at Mars sometime; give it a decent >atmosphere and it would be a lot like Tatooine (Why you'd want to >do that is another matter entirely :-). Earth is an extremely >diversified planet due to its oceans, the tilt of the poles, and >its climate patterns. But roll back to the last Ice Age and most of >it would look like Hoth. Accelerate the green- house effect and it >would look like Dagobah. Sink the continents and it would be your >Ocean planet. As a matter of fact, multi-terrain planets like this >one are probably the exception rather than the rule. I agree that all planets should not be Earth-clones but neither should they be single terrain. May I suggest, though, that before you read up on a little geology before making statements such as above. 1. Mars has a variety of terrains including shield volcanos, extremely deep canyons, dry channels that look like river beds, ice caps and more. 2. In the last Ice age, there were large areas (the tropics for example) which had climates very close to what they are now. Other areas were changed but were not iced over (most northern hemisphere deserts were wetter then). 3. We don't exactly know what changes will be cause by the greenhouse effect, but it almost certainly will not result in all land areas becoming tropic jungles. 4. Most of the sizable planets in the Solar System (excluding gas giants) have more than one type of terrain. A sizable planet is any body roughly the size of the Moon or larger. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 17 Apr 87 0945-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #162 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Apr 87 0945-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #162 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 17 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 162 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87 15:19:59 EDT From: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (MATTHEW G. SAROFF) Subject: Some Clarifications on Last Letter: Hi, My Sincerest apologies to those who mistook the intent of my letter about the legal repurcussions of certain actions that NESFA might be. While I do feel that non-trnsferrable membership will be a pain for me, my comment about legal repurcussions is simply that there has been an implied guarantee established about membership transferrability. All that NESFA has to do in this matter is to inform people when they buy a membership that it is non-transferrable. If you make good faith effort, there will be no problem (Personally, I think that someone in NESFA is worried about membership scalping.) My second comment was on the *involuntary* refund of the $18.00 memberships. The purchase of a membership is a contract, and refunding the money would appear to be breaking said contract. Seeing as how NESFA is in pretty good financial shape, eating a loss on the $18 memberships or subsidising them with more expensive later memberships is possible, and this would avoid problems. I wish to state clearly that the involuntary refund of memberships is *NOT* currently NESFA policy. It was merely mentioned by someone in the minutes, and I felt that it would be effective to get my $0.02 in before it became policy. Another note: As someone who has founded and run 2 S.F. Conventions, it is an *expletive deleted* load of work to put even a small covention on. You need lots of dedicated people, and I can understand how people in NESFA get p.o.'d at people who just sit around and complain. I had to fight "armchair cynics" every step of the way to get the convention started. Matthew Saroff ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 87 18:54:33 GMT From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!george@RUTGERS.EDU (Geo. R. Greene, From: Jr.) Subject: Re: Boskone Redux I should've suspected that Mr. Galloway would prove my point eventually. In keeping with his seeming credo of "Boskone, right or wrong!", he eventually got around to posting a list of the things that have made 4500 people want to go to it. Item 5 on this list is > 5) Boskone's got Boston. It's been held downtown, and has been > very easy to get to by mass transit. MIT's across the river. There > are restaurants of every kind within easy access. There are large > numbers of technically oriented people in the metro area. This > can make things more interesting. Boston's also filled with other > things to see and do before and after the con. All this, and no appropriate cluster of hotels? That's hardly plausible. And then, from the same person who told us that that strategy would place too much strain on the organizing committee, we hear, > 1) Continuity and excellent organization: Boskone is one of the > *very* few cons that you can depend on being consistently well > organinzed. > ... > I doubt many people who haven't worked/organized a con realize > just how well Boskone is organized. But most people who do > organize/work realize this; > ... > 2) Due to the above organizational skills, etc., etc. With all due respect, I should think that if there were ANY metropolitan area in the world where the local talent pool would contain adequate organizational power to handle the distributed configuration, it would have to be Boston. Besides, If their 1989 Worldcon bid is unopposed, then which hotel are they going to put Worldcon in? Surely this hotel doesn't think that Worldcon will be any more peaceful than the last Boskone, does it? Or are they planning to use summer/unoccupied dorms on the campuses of universities for Worldcon? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1987 18:44 EDT From: Ben Yalow Subject: Boskone XXV Contrary to some published statements, NESFA has taken no action authorizing mandatory returning those BOSKONE XXV memberships already purchased. Currently, it has authorized allowing refunds to those who have already purchased memberships, at the request of the person who has purchased the membership. Further information on this (and other plans for Boskone) will be appearing in a letter in the future, as well as distribution through other mechanisms. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 87 19:44:23 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was Re: SnobCon) This is more comment on Boskone & NESFA, following up Tom Galloway and George Greene. For those of you who don't want to follow point by point, let me just say that I think everyone's getting a bit carried away. No one has determined the fate of Boskone forever. The restrictions imposed on the next Boskone are ONLY for the next Boskone; then NESFA will reevaluate. So if they are being fair, or unfair, or really nasty, or subhuman, or whatever, does it matter that much? Give them a year to rebound, and see what happens after that. I suspect that once the people in charge of NESFA feel reassured that the convention is not completely out of control, they will loosen up. And PLEASE, nobody flame me or the committee for saying that the committee wants to CONTROL the convention. (Am I being paranoid? Maybe, but in this discussion it's hard to help it.) Of COURSE they want control. They're legally responsible for all sorts of potential horribleness, plus if things run wildly amuck (or are PERCEIVED by hotels as doing so) any more, it will be even harder to find a place to hold the con. george@scirtp.UUCP (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.) writes: >Arguing with tom y. galloway >I don't recall ever having said a damn thing about how to run an SF >convention. Telling people that they should use more than one >hotel is not telling them how to solve the problems that that will >impose. Just to beat a dead horse into the ground: I DO NOT KNOW >ANYTHING about how to run an SF con or any other similar event. >This does not stop me from knowing that the lame excuse that "no >facility is big enough" is entirely bogus. You suggested multiple hotels in a way that made it sound as though you thought that it was an obvious and simple solution to [some of] Boskone's problems. That just isn't true, for reasons Tom made clear. When you offer solutions in that manner, you are implicitly claiming that you know better how to run the con than the people who are blind enough not to see such an obvious answer. If you don't know anything about how to run a con, stop acting as though you think you do. >The attitude that they claim to have is not terribly relevant, >because actions speak louder than words. Which is why I made the comment to you above. >As I said, actions speak louder than words. When a group of people >know that there is going to be 2x amount of demand for a product, >and contrive to ensure that All 1x of themselves will get their >demand met, but most of the people who do not belong to the group >will not, that is being incestuous, elitist, etc., ad nauseam. >Questions about whether they had any alternatives are legitimate, >however. This brings us back to the question of whether fan clubs, particularly big ones like NESFA, have any responsibility to local fans not in the club, far-away fans, etc. As I said 'way back when, I don't think they do (other than the simple human responsibilities we all have, obviously). If NESFA is ensuring that only people of the sort they want can come to next year's Boskone, that is in fact elitist, but elitist is a loaded term. Why should NESFA have a responsibility to others to make Boskone a place for them? I have always seen the con as a NESFA function that they were kind enough to invite me to. I don't see what you mean to say by "all 1x of themselves will get their demand met, but most of the people who do not belong to the group will not." Are you seriously complaining about the fact that the people who put on Boskone get guaranteed admittance? Are you going to start complaining now that only people who work on cons can get into the green room? The group of people who put on Boskone is NOT identical with the group of people who will be attending it next year. The group of people who will be attending it next year are not a body which has had any input as a body on the form or content of the con. There isn't any homogenous "group" which is getting entrance to the con. If NESFA is trying to be selective in favor of active fans, it's because they believe that the con will be more the sort of con they want to run if they do that. And by the way, I seem to recall from the original postings copied from the NESFA newszine Instant Message that anyone who was willing to work on the con could get in. Sounds eminently fair to me. Someone recently posted a comment that he (I disremember the name) had been going to Boskones for the past few years but never realized that they would welcome his help, and all I can say is, you must never have read a single issue of Helmuth, the twice-a-day Boskone newszine. I've been to five Boskones (but in case anyone is wondering, not within the last three years), and at every one they were begging for volunteers in every area. >> Wishing won't make it so. [Tom] >But braving the wind and coping with the logistics WILL. It's just >a question of whether the organizing committee would rather do that >or resort to the elitist wimp-out. Look, if you do not know anything about how to run a con (your words), then you have no idea of how difficult it might be to run a multiple-hotel con. So where do you get off saying that not doing so is a wimp-out? Tom has worked on many conventions and probably knows what he's talking about. [Tom quoting George:] >>>[The committee being forced to cut attendance due to lack of a >>>suitable facility] is untrue. People almost always have choices. >>>The only absolute requirements are that the con be about SF and >>>be held in Boston or Cambridge in spaces vaguely resembling >>>hotels. All other requirements are flexible. [Tom's response:] >> Gee, based on this paragraph, we don't even need a Boskone >> committee or staff; that's a flexible requirement! [George's response:] >Of course it is. If enough people are feeling shut out and are mad >enough about it then they will do exactly that (have an SF con in >Boston without the blessing of NESFA's Boskone committee). George, there is a BIG difference between a convention whose committee is not the NESFA Boskone committee, and a convention without a committee at all. The first may be seen every weekend in cities across the world; the second is also known as a gathering in someone's house. If you're going to have guests, panels, dealers, movies, parties, shows, a hotel, someone has to organize it. NESFA has never claimed to be the only people allowed to put on a Boston con. Few others compete, because NESFA has been so good at it. There are other Boston-area cons, however. [Tom, being sarcastic about George's comment above:] >> Just everybody who'd like to go to a Boskone show up next >> President's Day weekend at the Sheraton and do a Boskone! > >I'm really amazed that NESFA hasn't tried this already. They don't >have to tell the Sheraton that they're NESFA. They can just arrange >to procure (separately) reservations for all of "their" people >(fans, pros, dealers, artists, whatever) at the hotel that weekend. >Starting now. They could screen by how far in advance people were >willing to pay. Whether the Sheraton was willing to "accept" >Boskone would then become an entirely moot point. George, you have GOT to be kidding. I begin to wonder if you have ever even been to a con. Without hotel cooperation, how are you going to get function space, blocked rooms, staff prepared for hall costumes (police have been called at cons when someone who didn't know what was going on wandered in and saw someone with a blaster, or even just looking weird), etc. etc.? I wouldn't be surprised if there were legal problems with this idea as well. [Tom on multi-hotel cons:] >> Well, what's obvious to me, as someone who's helped organize >> large sf cons, is that in addition to fighting low temperatures, >> you'll have even more problems with people wandering around doing >> vandalism and the like. >This ridiculous. This is a red herring. This is mixing issues. >The problem that we are discussing is not the presence of a >minority of vandals. It is the problem of too large a majority of >"good" fans. Whatever strategy you use for handling vandals at one >sub-site will work equally well at all the others. No, it's not ridiculous. There are several interrelated problems Boskone is having; one is vandalism and another is the simple fact of too many people. If Tom, who is experienced in organizing large cons, says that distributed hotels will increase vandalism, it seems to me that his opinion is worth at least listening to. >Why is the con committee strained? If there are 4500 people who >want to go, SURELY there must be "enough" who want to plan. I >would think that slots on the con organizing committee would be >among the most highly prized offices in NESFA. If the con >committee is strained I would expect it to be more because of its >unwillingness to share clout & credit than because of lack of >interest from the membership in contributing person-power to the >effort. This is just ridiculous. Have you ever been to a Boskone and read their pleas for help? Have you ever been to a NESFA meeting (they are all open meetings) and offered to pitch in on Boskone? (A friend of mine & I were damn near drafted when we dropped by last December.) Do you have any conception of how complex an undertaking a convention is? Many people do not have time to run a con. Of those who do want to help, not all have the knowledge to run things. (If you were con committee chair, ultimately responsible, would you let a volunteer whose qualifications you didn't know handle the thousands of dollars involved in, say, the art show? Be in charge of professional guests? Remember that if they muck up and lose Michael Whelan's masterpiece, or fatally insult Harlan Ellison, you take the rap in the end. If you would, I don't want to be anywhere near that con.) >The smallest tolerable "large room" is available only in a large >hotel? I would humbly suggest looking harder. Depends what you want. If you want a dealers' room which can accommodate a 4500-person con, then probably it is only available in a large hotel. If you want a film room where STAR WARS can be shown, ditto. >Wind chill, committee strain, and 1 large room are Problems that I >hadn't thought about; that is part of the reason why I apologized >to Eastlake (another part is that he was polite). But these >problems would not be insurmountable for any group that was as >committed to fairness and bigness as I would expect them to be. What gives you the right to expect NESFA to be committed to bigness? It's my understanding that they do not like such a huge con, even aside from hotel problems (this was being spoken of three years ago, when I last went to a Boskone). It's not NESFA's sacred duty to hold a con bigger than many Worldcons. >Nothing has 1 cause. Biased hotel management is of course one of >the contributing factors to my inability to go the next Boskone. >But another is simply that the relevant sub-committee of NESFA has >drawn a line beyond which they Will Not Suffer Exertion. Claims by >the defenders of the committee that it is Out Of Their Hands are >simply untrue. And you have no conception, by your own admission, of the amount of exertion they are refusing. >If the organizing committee claims it's not worth THEIR trouble >then it is the wrong committee. So form another. There is nothing magic about NESFA, except that they are one of the oldest fan clubs in the world and consistently hold some of the best-organized, most efficiently-run conventions in the country. If their talent pool thinks something is unworkable, there's a good chance it is. But nothing's stopping you from finding out. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 20 Apr 87 0915-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #163 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Apr 87 0915-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #163 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 163 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Asimov (2 msgs) & Asprin & Bradley & Brooks & Brunner & Hubbard & Lee & LeGuin & Niven & Norton & Silverberg (2 msgs) & Stephenson ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Apr 87 18:23:51 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugjeffh@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Piers Anthony In a previous article, ole Obnoxio mentioned Pier Xanthony's Xanth series. I'm not going to say it was a literary masterpiece, but it did serve a purpose. I've argued this point many a time with Kev/ugcherk/Gup to no avail so I pose the argument to you. You'll never find anything "deep" in any of Anthony's numerous volumes of books (e.g. _Bio of a Space Tyrant_, _Apprentice Adept_, etc.), in fact, most of his stuff is pretty boring and very redundant. The fact remains, though, that it can be a lot of fun and very relaxing. I'm speaking mainly of his Xanth series. _A Spell for Chameleon_ remains one of my favorites. They're all the kinds of books you can just kick back and park your brain for a couple of hours with if that's what you want to do. They're fun. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 21:48:50 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff ahh@s.cc.purdue.edu.UUCP (Brent L. Woods) writes: > Mr. Cherkauer, I have noticed in this posting (see above) and >others (the "Nightfall" discussion) that you seem to have a >definite bias against Isacc Asimov. As a matter of fact, you seem >to devote a significant amount of effort to slamming him. Is there >some reason for this? Or, are you just attacking him because he is >generally regarded as one of the "greats" of Science Fiction? Or >is it personal? I wonder, since you haven't missed an opportunity >to flame him, yet you give no reasons for such flamage. Nightfall: I *gave* reasons. Asimov in general: Yes, I slam him deliberately. It is not because of some random personal bias, though. "Nightfall" was just an example of what I see as his *worst* stuff. Most of his other stuff is better, but still, in my opinion, not worth reading. I have read a lot of his stuff, and I haven't ever liked any of it. I think he is an extraordinarily bad story teller, and understands nothing of the human condition. I have even read a lot of his non-fiction. One scientific non-fiction book of his I have read is _Is Anyone Out There?_ This book is just *filled* with things about relativity that are plain *wrong*. What irks me is that a lot of kids out there look to him as a scientific authority, when actually his authority does not extend much beyond the realm of *chemistry*, which is what he got his doctorate in. Of *physics*, he demonstrates very little understanding. It also bothers me that someone who is so blind to *people* has such mass appeal. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 87 23:53:07 GMT From: mimsy!chris@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Magical Shop results From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) >P.S. There is an anthology titled "Magic for Sale" -- a collection >of just the stories you're looking for -- but the stories it >contains are uniformly bad. Indeed? Yet this same anthology includes Sturgeon's "Shottle Bop", twice praised in this very same summary: From: dplatt@TEKNOWLEDGE-VAXC.ARPA (Dave Platt) >"Shottle Bop", by the late, much-lamented Theodore Sturgeon, is my >favorite in this genre. From: Kevin Cherkauer >I read a very good "magic shop" story called "Shottle Bop" ("Bottle >Shop" with the first letters switched). On a less disputable note, the proper title for the Asimov-Wishes collection is _Isaac_Asimov's_Magical_Worlds_of_Fantasy_7:_Magical_ _Wishes_. Like all the others associated with this one, it is actually an Asimov/Greenberg/Waugh anthology. Chris Torek Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7690) UUCP: seismo!mimsy!chris ARPA/CSNet: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 18:23:51 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugjeffh@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Asprin A couple (bunch) of articles ago, someone mentioned the low quality of Robert Lynn Asprin's Myth series. Well, I read the hard cover version (the first three or four stories - app. 750 pages) in a couple of hours. I'm not *that* fast a reader. The stories were so predictable and simple-minded that you could literally put your mind on cruise control and zip through the book. Again, though, if that's what you want to do, this is your book. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 02:22:00 GMT From: harvard!linus!watmath!watnot!dagibbs@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: the Zimmers c60a-4er@tart20.BERKELEY.EDU writes: >If you find out about the Mythos names in Marion Zimmer Bradley's >works (also in Paul Edwin Zimmer's--I think he's her brother) I'd I would like to correct you on the relationship between Marion Zimmer Bradley and Paul Edwin Zimmer; they are not sister/brother, they are married. p.s. I don't flame spelling, just incorrect info. Dave dagibbs@watnot.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 18:23:51 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugjeffh@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Wishsong of Shannara Does anyone know when _Wishsong of Shannara_ is going to come out in regular paperback? ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 87 08:16:04 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60/C) Subject: Re: John Brunner Digging (and I mean digging, my library resides in several boxes in the back room) into my library, I came up with these additions: The Traveler in Black Bedlam Planet No Future in It Polymath Born Under Mars Interstellar Empire The Jagged Orbit Another one in the style of Zanzibar" and "Sheep Look Up" The World Swappers The Avengers of Carrig The Long Result Players at the Game of People Most of these are fairly short and not very memorable (not that they're bad, just not particularly good). Two that stand out are "Players at the Game of People" and "The Traveler in Black". Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 87 01:34:09 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!tim@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard 8440827%wwu.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET writes: >I have been reading a very long, but very good book by L. Ron >Hubbard called Battlefield Earth. I was wondering if any has read >any of his other SF works such as the Mission Earth series and if >they are any good. Battlefield Earth I found to be a very enjoyable book (despite the length of it, it never got boring). I have started the Mission Earth series (read the first 3 books). The first book was "ok", and the second two went downhill from there. I stopped at the third, thinking that if this is how it is going to go, I dont think I would want to see book number 10 of the series! I have heard, however, that the book does pick up at book four, so I may start reading the series again. Read the first book of the series and then decide then if you want to get involved in a ten book series. Timothy D. Thomas SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science UUCP: [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!tim CSnet: tim@buffalo ARPAnet: tim%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 87 19:09:27 GMT From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Night's Sorceries, by Tanith Lee The latest "Flat Earth" book is out, and I'm not disappointed. Lee departs from the naming convention, but then the book is a slight departure in terms of format as well. It still is a collection of stories set in the time of the flat earth, but there is less of a central theme to them. They all take place at the same time (or a little after) as the stories in Delerium's Mistress, but she and her un-relatives don't turn up as the major figures in the stories as much as they do in the other books. They do, however, often serve as interesting plot-advancing passers-by. Just a small sample of the kind of writer-to-reader fooling around that Lee gets into in these books and which I enjoy thoroughly, I'll mention *** POSSIBLE SPOILER *** that in one of the stories... well... you know how terrible and stupid and awful it is when an author tells a long complicated story, and then at the end to make it fit, just does a sort of "... and then wakes up"? Know what I mean? Don't you just *hate* it when that happens? Well, Lee does that in one of the stories. But the odd thing is... it worked! I *loved* it. If you haven't yet, go out and get these books and read them. I think they are very good indeed, and haven't been going downhill, neither. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 87 23:37:00 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!retief@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin and WAKE UP! LeGuin's "The Disposessed" is a fine, good book. It was written in the framework of Earth-Hain-etc (Rocannan's World/ Semley's Necklace) and is about the ideological contest between two planets, as embodied by the life of a physicist from one of the two. Something akin to "real" Communism (i.e., anarchistic and communal) is the system the physicist comes from. Very interesting -- many things seeming the same as in political systems around us now yet different. No, I don't remember anymore names. What other books has LeGuin written in the Earth-Hain-etc framework? ihnp4!bradley!retief ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 87 16:54:23 GMT From: bayes@hpfcrj.hp.com (Scott Bayes) Subject: Re: Larry Niven returns bmg1@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Brett Goldstock) writes: > He has finished the sequel to "The Integral Trees". I don't > remember the title, and I don't think it's out in book form yet, > but it's serialized in the January/April issues of "Analog". _The Smoke Ring_, a follow-up to _The Integral Trees_, was in Analog Jan - Apr '87. Like much of Niven's stuff lately, it has left me rather unimpressed. Seems like he lost a lot of his appeal (for me, at least) in the mid-70s somewhere. Scott Bayes hpfcla!bayes ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 87 11:14:38 PDT (Friday) From: "Leeanna_Dibrell.OsbuSouth"@Xerox.COM Subject: Re:SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #147 I just joined the group and probably someone else has already answered Brad but here goes my answer anyway - I thought EVERYONE knew that Andre Norton was a woman. She started out in the era when the only way a woman could get published was to write under a male name. Thank goodness THAT has changed, but she still retains her male name and is still writing. I heard that her original profession was a school teacher. I can only guess that her pseudonym was so "saleable" that it was moneywise to just keep it once it became possible for women to get printed under their own names. Although I have a met a lot of the writers I have only seen a picture of her. Tiptree is also a woman. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 01:44:31 GMT From: cmcl2!delftcc!bc-cis!john@RUTGERS.EDU (John L. Wynstra) Subject: Silverberg's "Dying Inside" (was Voyage To Arcturus) From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM > I did finish Dying Inside, by Robert Silverberg, and got rid of >it soon after. I couldn't stand the pity-me character who abused a >wonderful gift unitl it disappeared. A goldplated sl*meball is >still a sl*meball, and that's what the main character was. I've read two of Silverberg's books, "Dying Inside" and "Up The Line", the latter I rather enjoyed, the former I didn't, mostly because of my reaction towards the protagonist (similar to yours). However, I thought the whole point of "Dying Inside" was that his gift was his ruin. Are there any other instances in SF where the subject of telepathy is treated as a curse rather than a gift? "Up The Line", for those not familiar with Silverberg, is a classic Time Travel story, wherein we find two veteran time services, the time police and the time couriers, of whom the protagonist is a new recruit, who escort tourists thru history. It has an interesting ending. John L. Wynstra Apartment 9-G, 43-10 Kissena Blvd., Flushing, N.Y., 11355 (allegra,delftcc,cmcl2,columbia,philabs)!phri!bc-cis!john ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 05:11:36 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Silverberg's "Dying Inside" (was Voyage To Arcturus) > I did finish Dying Inside, by Robert Silverberg, and got rid of >it soon after. I couldn't stand the pity-me character who abused a >wonderful gift unitl it disappeared. A goldplated sl*meball is >still a sl*meball, and that's what the main character was. Far be it for me to take a contrary position, but Marina completely misses the point. Who says that telepathy HAS to be a wonderful gift? Who says that telepaths have to be proud of their gift? Dying Inside is the modern Midas. Everyone wants to be inside the head of others, and never understand that this is a two edged sword. Midas got his wish, that everything he touched became the purest of gold. And was therefore ruined, for everything that he cared for was lost to him. The same with Dying Inside. Silverberg gives his character mankind's gift, and shows that it isn't nearly the wonderful toy it is cracked up to be. Remember, when you read someone's mind, you get everything -- including the folks who think your a rotten son of a bitch. That is hard enough on the ego when written or spoken, but imagine the full force of hate through a direct mind link. Telepathy isn't selective. Dying Inside is a brutally depressing book, and not everyone is going to like it, but it is one of the few books I find time to re-read at least once a year (along with Blish's Black Easter, Moorcock's Behold the Man (a wonderful Easter book), and Bradbury's Martian Chronicles). I believe it is Silverbob's best work, and one of the most emotionally powerful books ever published in the genre. Definitely not for the 'lived happily ever after' set, though. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 87 01:12:13 GMT From: seismo!hpscda!hpfcla!hpcnoe!jason@RUTGERS.EDU (Jason Zions) Subject: Re: The BIG U _The_Big_U_ may be more than brilliant satire. My older brother attended Boston University from '78 to '82. I had occasion to visit him. The Megaversity environment is surprisingly like that of Warren Towers, 700 Commonwealth Ave, otherwise known as The Zoo. Three residential towers, with several monolithic floors below. "Tar City" between the towers. Furniture going out windows. The Zoo didn't have the "Big Wheen" neon sign, but it did have the huge Citgo sign. Someone really did send a burning christmas tree up and down in an elevator. BU even suffered through a garbage strike or two. Since I visited during some of the worst of it at 700 Comm Ave, I was really struck by some of the similarities. I was also struck by the chapter containing the acid trip description. The way his writing flowed from the concrete, reality-based description he'd used all along into the totally free-floating trip was amazingly real; at least, it matches my own memories of the way trips happened. All in all, a terrific book. At all costs, ignore the front and back covers; the cover art is exploitive and unrelated to the book, and the back blurb is, like most back blurbs, wretched. Has the Neal Stephenson written anything else? Please let me know by e-mail! Jason Zions Hewlett-Packard Corp. Colorado Networks Division 3404 E. Harmony Road Mail Stop 102 Ft. Collins, CO 80525 {known_world}!hplabs!hpfcla!hpcndm!jason jason%hpcndm@hplabs.HP.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 20 Apr 87 0934-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #164 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Apr 87 0934-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #164 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 164 Today's Topics: Films - Good SF Movies (10 msgs) & Japanimation (5 msgs) & Influences (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Apr 87 02:30:36 GMT From: moss!cbosgd!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies megabyte@chinet.UUCP writes: >But, what are the well done intellegent SF movies? I would like to nominate Ursula Le Guin's The Lathe of Heaven. I saw it on TV, don't know if it was a movie or a "made for TV movie", but I had read the book some years before, and the book was one of the truly scary things I've ever read (beats Steven King drek all hollow (aaagh! duck! who left the gas on? flame-broiled, coming up!)). The movie was very respectful of the book's plot, had great visual effects (conveyed the depopulation of the earth by a family gathered around a table, with most of them covered with cobwebs, for example), pretty good music, and was every bit as scary as the book, even knowing exactly how it was going to come out. That's my $0.02. Kent Paul Dolan UUCP : kent@xanth.UUCP ...{sun,cbosgd,harvard}!xanth!kent CSNET : kent@odu.csnet ARPA : kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu Voice : (804) 587-7760 USnail: P.O. Box 1559, Norfolk, Va 23501-1559 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 87 23:34:26 GMT From: seismo!isis!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies megabyte@chinet.UUCP writes: >But, what are the well done intellegent SF movies? There are so many types of SF that this could be broken down endlessly. It all depends on what kind of mood you are in at the time. If you're talking intelligent movies, I have to agree with you for your choice of The Quiet Earth. Another good intelligent movie is my choice: The Brother from Another Planet. You could also get into the really technical movies, the action movies, the horror movies, etc. The list would be virtually endless. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 87 03:53:32 GMT From: brianr@tekig4.tek.com (Brian Rhodefer) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies In the category of Hard Science Fiction, may I nominate the film, "The Andromeda Strain"? ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 87 19:23:12 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies Yeah, I have to agree on _Brother From Another Planet_- I thought at first it was going to be mindlessly stupid, but it was great! I loved the two "Immigration Cops (alien ones, that is)" Eric ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 87 00:57:14 GMT From: alainew@tekcae.tek.com (Alaine Warfield) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies John Wyndham's "Day of the Triffids" is a great movie, mostly on the intellectual level. It describes a world in which man's space defenses have backfired and cause almost everyone in the world to go blind. I was surprised to find that the book was written in the 40's or 50's as it has so much insight in the problems facing us today. The movie is British and is extremely faithful to the book, which makes the movie about 4 hours long but definitely worth it. I've been trying to see all of the movies mentioned in the theme from Rock Horror Picture Show, and some of them are quite good including "Day the Earth Stood Still" and marginally "When Worlds Collide". p.s. I looked through the credits for Jeanette Scott and didn't see her name. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 21:53:02 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies Best movie of the century: BRAZIL. Not to be missed. sunybcs!ugcherk ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 13:51:10 GMT From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!tom@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies The Day the Earth Stood Still Five Million Years to Earth (aka Quatermass and the Pit) 2001: A Space Odyssey 2010 The Andromeda Strain Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 87 06:08:18 GMT From: harvard!linus!watmath!looking!brad@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Back to the Future Re: *GOOD* SF Movies >One of the very best science fiction films I have ever seen (in >fact, the best) is "Brazil." I couldn't believe that "Back to the >Future," which is just fluff, beat it out for the Hugo last year. >It just goes to show what people consider "good," I suppose. It depends on what is being judged in the award. Is it "Best SF in a movie" or "Best movie based on SF?" Back to the Future wasn't great SF. Although time travel stories are rarely consistent, BTTF really blew it by using both the "alternate reality" and "change the past, change the present" schemes for time travel. But it was a superb movie with an SF theme. Well directed, acted, paced and acted, and written well to let the audience members enjoy themselves. It attained its goal, as a movie, superbly. Probably the best F/SF comedy ever made, although Ghostbusters is good competition. Brazil was also superb, particularly in direction and set design. So it is a very hard choice -- Brazil or the best SF comedy ever made. The popular choice doesn't surprise me, and it is a tougher question than you suggest. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 87 03:33:03 GMT From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies Just a plug for a couple of SF film favorites of mine, ones I haven't seen mentioned yet. 1) RESURRECTION - Ellen Burstyn plays a woman who dies briefly (her heart stops) after a car accident, and gradually discovers she has acquired the power to heal others (and herself) from her experience. Borderline SF in that the faith-healing theme seems religious, but the film gives it a more naturalistic (psychokinesis?) treatment than that. Truly excellent movie, highly recommended. 2) RED DAWN - Mainly I include this to annoy the Politically Correct among us, but it is a good film. Ignore the occasional flag-waving, and enjoy some good acting in the service of an exciting and sometimes moving story. Sorry, no space operas; you guys already know all the good space operas. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 18:23:51 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugjeffh@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Good SF Movies About good SF movies: Ever see Brazil? I'm sure a lot of you have aand will agree with me that it was a very good movie. It was very funny but also had a lot to say about society. The imagery was great. Well, I don't want to spoil it for you - go see it! ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 87 14:29:14 GMT From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies The sad truth is, I haven't been able to see any of the better high quality cinema works coming out of Japan. The closest I've come so far is to see Robotech episodes on TV. The real cinema work is supposed to be even better. I suppose it's a problem that North American people are simply too closed minded. Let's see what we have had: There was the Lord of the Rings semi-fiasco, and then the gruesome if-it-doesn't-make-you-puke-it's-no-good overtoned Heavy Metal (yes, I know it wasn't all that bad, but the attitude was there). The Beatles Yellow Submarine was fantastic, but not what people would normally accept as SF (an interesting question of why people draw the lines they do). I never bothered to try to see the Transformers Movie. Cheers! Jim Omura 2A King George's Drive, Toronto, (416) 652-3880 ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 00:17:36 GMT From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura) Subject: Re: Some Japanimation Questions. sds5044@ritcv.UUCP () writes: >Here are some questions: >1. Is there a sequel to the movie SUMMER MACROSS 84 ? What is "Summer Macross 84?" I've heard of "Megazone 2-3" and "Robotech--The Movie" and "Battleiod", but nothing under this name. >2. Does anybody know about the GEMMA WARS video? What is "Gemma Wars"? >3. Are there any good Japanimation books out now. I haven't found anything aside from the Robotech books. Jim Omura 2A King George's Drive, Toronto, (416) 652-3880 ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 87 22:26:02 GMT From: rochester!ritcv!pxd3563@RUTGERS.EDU (Patrick A. Deupree) Subject: Re: Some Japanimation Questions. 1. Like Jim I have never heard of "Summer Macross 84". I have heard of the Macross Movie (or Macross, the movie), and the others that he mentioned. I have heard that there is supposed to be a Robotech movie sometime. I have also heard that there are supposed to be new episodes of Robotech coming out sometime dealing with what happens to Rick Hunter and Lisa Hayes after the first series. 2. I don't know about "Gemma Wars" but I have heard of a movie called "Gemma Tyson"(sp?). I think it was about a bunch of people with psychic powers (mostly telekineses), that have to battle some evil guy with really nasty psychic powers. I believe this was "Gemma Tyson" but I may have my titles mixed up. It was a while ago that I saw it. 3. Other than the Robotech books there are a bunch of Star Blazers books floating around someplace (as a matter of fact they are realeasing a Star Blazers comic book series, and it may be out already. I'm not really sure). Someone I know has a bunch of books on the Star Blazers (actually they are all in Japanese and deal with the whole Yamato saga). One of them had a cell from one of the Yamato movies in it. Other than those I am not sure of any specific books, although I am pretty sure there are some. Patrick Deupree ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 87 18:52:21 GMT From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) Subject: Japanimation comprehensive lists Hello: Well, after the academic year is over (May), I'll be posting a comprehensive list of all the Japanese animations movies that was shown in Japan during the years of 1985 and 1986. I think this might be of use to some avid Japanimation fans out there, and might give you a handle on what percentage of Japanimation haven't made it to the U.S. I also plan to make a comprehensive plot summary of _Nausicaa_of_ _the_Valley_of_the_Wind (the original of the bastardized version you might've seen as _Warriors_of_the_Wind). I do this since I've heard that 1) the bastardized version leaves out many crucial scenes (oh horror!) which distort the story entirely, and 2) many of who have seen the original saw it in Japanese without subtitles. I was aghast at this since this is one of my alltime favorite movies and I cringe at the thought that some who have seen it didn't get the entire story right. I have the original on tape, I speak Japanese fluently (being Japanese :-) ), and I have the "comic-book"/sketches done by the creator of the movie (Shun Miyazaki), so I don't think I'll make many mistakes in detail. So why am I saying this right now?: well, talking to a Japanimation fan on the phone made me realize that some of you might not be living near your computer during the summer (especially college people - like me). So if you like, I'll send the two summaries to you USmail or email if email me your address or your address on any major network (if you're gonna be on a computer without Usenet during the summer). Hey what's 22cents worth? Well, I would like to be compensated for the 22cents by a letter explaining about anything about the Japanimation circle here in the States. I'm a relative newcomer to the U.S. Japanimation world here and would like any tips or help you can give me. Help me out, please and I'll gladly send you the two (and any more comprehensive stuff I can make) stuff. I'll be at the address listed below for now, during the summer, and throughout the next academic year. So please, help out a newcomer!! Eiji Hirai USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081 phone: (215)328-8449 (this phone is till May '87) phone during summer: (215)544-5349 UUCP: {seismo!bpa,ihnp4!bpa,rutgers!liberty}!swatsun!hirai ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 87 15:51:30 GMT From: kathyli@miro.berkeley.edu (The Rev. Mom) Subject: Re: Some Japanimation Questions. jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes: >sds5044@ritcv.UUCP () writes: >>Here are some questions: >>1. Is there a sequel to the movie SUMMER MACROSS 84 ? > What is "Summer Macross 84?" I've heard of "Megazone 2-3" and >"Robotech--The Movie" and "Battleiod", but nothing under this name. Summer Macross 84 is the original Japanese movie-version of Macross the now-famous first segment of Robotech. As far as I know there is no plan for using the Macross movie in anything that Harmony Gold is going to put out. Macek has said that they have the rights, there's just no place where it fits into the RT continuity, which is really a shame since it's such a beautiful movie. I've never heard anything about a sequel to Macross other than the loosely connected Orguss series. >>3. Are there any good Japanimation books out now. > > I haven't found anything aside from the Robotech books. Well, the anime's available if you're looking for it. Comic book stores seem to have picked up on the Japanese stuff since the Robotech boom (which is sort of dying down now). Local CFO chapters could probably tell you where to find stuff, as well. I know that there are going to be several translations of Japanese comic books and Japanese-drawn comics coming out on the shelves soon. (Eric want to help out here?). Eclipse is putting out Mai the Psychic Girl, and First is doing Lone Wolf and Cub. You might want to look into these titles. Kathy Li ...ihnp4!ucbvax!miro!kathyli kathyli@miro.Berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 15:50:47 GMT From: harvard!linus!watmath!watdcsu!shen1@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars >Any movie buffs who can help find other sources for scenes of the >film (especially cinematic sources; content sources are plentiful), >please post. Some of the X-wing/Tie fighter dogfights were lifted directly from documentary footage of The Battle of Britain. The models were made to move to duplicate sequences of the film *exactly*. keith. ihnp4!watmath!watdcsu!shen1 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Apr 87 12:48:46 EST From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: Star Wars Influences "Morris M. Keesan" writes: >Personally, I've always been struck by the parallels to the movie >version of "The Wizard of Oz". When the good guys hide in their >ship, overpower some stormtroopers, and then come out wearing their >costumes, I keep expecting one of them to try hiding his tail, and >the line of stormtroopers to break into a chorus of "Yo-ee-oh. >Yoh-oh." The Jawas can be seen as Munchkins, C3PO as the Tin Man, >R2D2 as Toto, Darth Vader as the Wicked Witch of the West, Obi-wan >as Glinda, etc. "Pay no attention to those droids behind the >curtain. They're not the droids you want." When I was in high school, I listened to a comedy radio show on a local college station (WCWP). One of the regular pieces was a serialized bizarre combination of Star Wars and the Wizard of Oz, entitled "Serial Woz" (or something like that)... it had the "good guys" of Star Wars going through the land of Oz. They mapped Chewbacca to Toto (and kept feeding him Milk Bones), and did a lot of other completely outrageous things. Somehow or other, the two stories managed to hang together. Bill ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 20 Apr 87 0949-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #165 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Apr 87 0949-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #165 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 165 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Apr 87 04:07:15 GMT From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jon Meltzer) Subject: SnobCon From: dee@CCA.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) >The present system provides relatively little bias in terms of the >lower pre-registration rate and that is justified in that it is >much easier and more efficient to spend known amounts of money in >hand and much harder and less efficient to spend unknown amounts of >money that may appear during a weekend. Consider how few at the >door registrations there could have been if Boston had been hit by >a blizzard. I traveled 400 miles in 10 degree weather to get to Boskone. Now I'm told that I am unwelcome because, essentially, I purchased nothing at the art show. >>It would be best if NESFA had a good idea just how many people >>would want to attend at each possible membership price. They >>could then set the price to whatever 2000 people are willing to >>pay. ... > >I admit that my initial response was too simplistic. Actually I >have no personal problem with monetizing peoples desires but there >are a lot of other factors involved. Presumably there is an amount >of money that would make the Sheraton Boston happy to have a >Boskone like Boskone 24 every weekend. Presumably there is an >amount of money that would make most of the people who did the work >to put on Boskone 24 happy to do it again, even if they thought >that most of the attendees being attracted were *ss h*l*s. Does NESFA **really** believe this?? >Many people consider the quality of Boskones art show to be a major >feature. Currently this is more or less self polcing as Boskone >charges a fixed price for display area and no percentage fee. Thus >those whose art sells for high prices have an economic incentive to >return and those whose art doesn't lose money. With a more than >factor of 2 reduction in attendence coming up, biasing attendence >towards those interested in purchasing art seems like a reasonable >way to keep up the quality of the show for the benefit of all >attendees. What about those of us more interested in panels? Wouldn't those participating in panels/talks be more pleased with Boskone if they knew that they had an audience? >>>> I for one am tired of being made to feel guilty for not >>>> offering to help out. >>> I don't know how anyone can make you feel guilty if you are not >>> so inclined. Most people who work on the convention do so >>> because they enjoy doing it, in one way or another, rather than >>> because of some feeling of guilt. >>I do not feel guilty. I do feel unwelcome. I am now told I am >>not >Glad to hear that you misstated yourself and are not being made to >feel guilty. The point is not answered. >>allowed to attend the next con for any amount of money because I >>did > >Hold on, as I have mentioned several times, you can buy a Boskone >25 membership (and membership in all future Boskones put on by >NESFA) right now by buying a Boskone Life Membership for $360. >This is 20 times the most recent preregistration rate ($18). Even >though pre-registrations are not being accepted, Life Memberships >still are. As soon as the new preregistration rate, no doubt >considerably higher, is approved, the Life Membership rate will >automatically jump to 20 times that unless NESFA votes some further >change in its rules. Can it be guaranteed that Life Membership requests will still be accepted? >>NOT help out at the last one. It was never my understanding that >>I was supposed to. If someone enjoys it, more power to them, but >>I enjoy panel sessions, buying books, and conversation. That is >>what I paid for and that is what I got. ... > >It is indeed the case that many of those who attended Boskone 24 >are unwelcome at future Boskones. But you sound like the sort of >person that is desired. On the hand, most of the attendees of >Boskone 24 are probably of the type that NESFA would like back, but >most of them is too many to fit at what we are likely to get as >facilities. It was recognized that these policies would eliminate >many desireable people. > >If you are willing to do so, I suggest you try to find someone in >the preferred categories who knows you personally and see if they >can get you in. Does anyone else find this last statement as offensive as I do? ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 87 15:18:44 GMT From: uwvax!uwmacc!oyster@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Weather at SnobCon dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes: >At Boskone 24, the temperature was below freezing with a brisk 10 - >20 mph wind a lot of the time. Walking back and forth between >hotels in such weather is not my idea of fun. Imagine walking back >and forth several times a days between two hotels in the middle of >winter. Going out is a major production. You got put on your >overcoat, scarf, hat, overboots, etc. I suspect that going back and >forth between 20 degree F and 80 degree F temperatures that often >may not be all that healthy. <*** Sarcasm warning! ***> Yeah, that's why all of us people who live up in the northern parts are so darned unhealthy. I mean, imagine attended a large, sprawling university during the winter months. One must constantly be wrapping up, entering sub-zero (sub-freezing you say? Hah! I scoff at you!) weather, walking a mile or so to an overheated building, unbundling, etc., then repeating the whole thing 50 minutes later. It's no *wonder* anybody of any merit is from California. (Incidentally, Arnie Schwarzenegger, the absolute *picture* of bad health, went to school in Wisconsin, the poor fellow.) Joel P. uucp: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster ARPA: oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu BITNET: plutchak@wiscmacc ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 87 23:00:19 GMT From: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.) Subject: Re: Boskone XXV Info from INSTANT MESSAGE >>>7) No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or guardian. >>>...We will make exceptions for: members of known SF clubs, gophers. >>Why wasn't this ever instituted? I don't think I would have >>initiated a convention *without* this to begin with! Stupid move >>on NESFA's part. > Yep. Undesireable, all right. I showed up a lot of other > scumballs... It would seem that you did not cause trouble, based on what you say. I don't disagree, but I am thinking of the legal ramifications of being responsible for minors. Who is if they have no legal guardian at the con? NESFA? If so, why should they be the ones held accountable? I just think that it would be better for the hotel if NESFA could guarantee this. Anyhow, someone recently pointed out to me that NESFA has *NOT* made any declaration as to what is going to happen next year. Lest we jump to conclusions (I know I have), perhaps we should hold discussion until an official NESFA announcement. Jon ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 87 00:41:12 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Boskone From: "Keith F. Lynch" > From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU >>> As for reducing membership, the obvious and non-discriminatory >>> solution is to auction off the 2000 or however many memberships. >> Wrong-o! It discriminates against people who have no spare >> money, like myself. >Well, given that 4000 people want to attend and only 2000 will be >allowed to, due to forces beyond the control of NESFA, SOME method >must be used. Money is the most fair way of measuring one's >seriousness about attending. For one thing, any other method means Huh? Maybe you have a CHOICE about what you spend your money on, but I don't think I can choose an overly expensive con over food and still be healthy enough to attend. Regular con rates are enough to put me in debt. No matter how seriously I want to attend, I just can't GET any more spending money, and if you base a con's membership rates on auction procedures, I WON'T be able to go, no matter how serious I am about it. I guess it's just my tough luck I'm not independently wealthy like some others. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Apr 87 10:30:17 PDT From: LAMONTS%SDS.SDSCNET@nmfecc.arpa Subject: Arrrgh! Not another Boskone (Borekone?) posting!?! First off, let me say that I am not now nor never have I been a member of NESFA. However, I have assisted the organizing committee of a professional engineering conference and _do_ know what a pain in the tush it is to get one's organizational act sufficiently together to handle even a couple hundred people. My heart goes out to the organizers of Boskone, having to deal with an order of magnitude larger. My own estimation is that the Law of Conservation of Misery dictates that the heartburn factor goes up by the square, if not the cube. That out of the way, I'd like to comment on the megabytes of megablather that are chewing up cpu cycles and disk sectors on the net. My initial reaction to the whole mess is a pox on all of your houses! Given the appropriate hardware, I'd time warp the lot into some planet's stone age and tell them to evolve into more responsible life forms ;-). Ms. Shoshanna Green opines: >When you offer solutions in that manner, you are implicitly >claiming that you know better how to run the con than the people >who are blind enough not to see such an obvious answer. If you >don't know anything about how to run a con, stop acting as though >you think you do. AAAAARGGGGH! Ignoring the dubious syntax, which I put down to either the heat of the moment or the lack of proof reading, implicit in Ms Green's comment is the assertion that _only_ those who run the con are allowed to make suggestions on how the con is run. By extension, only those running the government should be allowed to make suggestions on how the government should be run. Hmmm... I guess we can just chuck those first ten amendments to the Constitution and scratch the first Tuesday following the first Monday in November off the calendar, since we don't need to hear from the rabble. Leapfrogging to another point of contention, a great hoo-hah has been made about the _impossibility_ of holding a multi-hotel con. Ever been to SIGGRAPH? Or SHARE? SIGGRAPH is _easily_ an order of magnitude larger than Boskone, in terms of attendence alone. SHARE has roughly 5000 attendees and it holds TWO major meetings a year and TWO minor meetings, as well. The last SHARE I attended was spread over FOUR different hotels, so the multi-venue option is not totally without merit. Boston in February? Ugh! Maybe February is the wrong month to hold the con, then. Just a suggestion, but I suppose that puts me on Ms. Green's list of know-nothing-say-nothings. Look, Boskone is NESFA's party and you can cry if you want to. If they _don't_ want to engage in the monstrous logistical hassle of dealing with multiple hotels (and I don't blame them one whit), they don't have to. If they want to restrict their con to attendees with red hair whose last name is "Beeblebrox," then, I suppose, within the constitutional limits enunciated by recent Supreme Court decisions about private clubs, that is their right. If NESFA doesn't want to put on the type of con they've put on in the past (or what some _think_ has been put on in the past -- two entirely different things) or deal with 2**n kilofen because it is too much hassle (or the insurance premium is too high, which is more likely), there's nothing that says that they _have_ to. They're the ones doing the work. They're the ones who take the flames from the hotels and the lawsuits from the offended. What irks me (as an only slightly biased observer) is people saying something is IMPOSSIBLE when it may simply be inconvenient or unpleasant. "Can't" isn't the same thing as "don't want to." Perhaps Boskone needs professional management. Perhaps I should shut up. and finish rewriting that C language I/O library that has been giving me heartburn for the last week or so. Probably both, though the latter is more likely. A note to the moderator of this group: How about a mutually consented moratorium on postings on this subject for a while, till everyone cools off a bit? Maybe a week or so? Steve Lamont San Diego Supercomputer Center ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 87 10:09:22 GMT From: harvard!hscfvax!spem@RUTGERS.EDU (G. T. Samson) Subject: LASTCon 3/4/* - what caused its demise? I remember attending a relaxicon in Loudonville, NY (my hometown), known as LASTCon (Latham/Albany/Schenectady/Troy-Con). I attended the third incarnation of this con, LASTCon T'ree, and people I know attended the fourth incarnation. I heard rumors at Genericon (a con sponsored by Rensselaer Polytech) that LASTCons no longer took place because the concom had lost its hotel, the Americana (a really studly hotel, all you fen out there... imagine, 4 floors and ~*16* elevators!). Can anyone tell me what caused the demise of this fun relaxicon? Hard facts only, please, and perhaps to prevent another SnobCon proliferation of articles, these facts should be MAILED to me instead of posted... I'll summarize to the net if interest exists. Any responses will be greatly appreciated. G. T. Samson gts@hscfvax.HARVARD.EDU gts@borax.LCS.MIT.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 87 21:58:11 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: SnobCon jsm@vax1.UUCP (Jon Meltzer) writes: >dee@CCA.CCA.COM writes: >>If you are willing to do so, I suggest you try to find someone in >>the preferred categories who knows you personally and see if they >>can get you in. > >Does anyone else find this last statement as offensive as I do? How offensive do you find it? I think it stinks. Boskone is making these restrictions not only to cut down on the numbers of people attending the con, but also to focus the remaining number in order to create a certain type of con, in a certain atmosphere. That's fine; more power to them. But I worry about the kinds of people they're going to attract, especially with the above statements going around; I find it difficult to believe that the concom really does prefer hangers-on to boozers (not much of an improvement either way, in my opinion). (Please: dee@CCA.CCA.COM doesn't say he/she AGREES with this method of gaining entrance, so let's not start bickering AGAIN!) If a large number of people manage to get memberships to Boskone based on their ability to suck up to those in the "preferred categories", the con is going to end up packed with people who may very well not have any more interesting or endearing ability than that of sucking up. Oh joy. You know, every time I read an article about why what Boskone is doing is fine and dandy, I feel like cheering. I think they have good reason for what they're doing, and I think that the idea behind the restrictions is of a very nice con indeed. But I have my doubts about whether or not these particular restrictions, and the system they're based on, are going to do what NESFA wants them to. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 20 Apr 87 1000-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #166 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Apr 87 1000-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #166 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 166 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Gardner Fox & Authors in Interviews & Influences (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Apr 87 21:33 EDT From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Gardner Fox remembered... The following is reprinted without permission from the most recent issue of the Comics Journal, but is of interest to SF fans as well. (deleted) ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 06:33:09 GMT From: obnoxio@BRAHMS.BERKELEY.EDU (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Subject: Re: SF Authors in Interview bt@ssl-macc (Brian Thompstone) writes: >It has been said that plots are not your strong point. [interviewer] > >Yes, well I've never been very good at plots. But then, in science >fiction it isn't really necessary. > [A C Clarke] > >ACC has just given his own profession a bad name. No he hasn't. Strength at plotting has not been really necessary for a long time in most fiction, not just science fiction. Antiplotting and non-plotting can be found in mainstream literature if you look around. There's several things that can make for a good book. It's always great, for example, to read beautiful prosaists like Dylan Thomas or Ray Brad- bury, but dry and/or klunky writing styles don't in themselves sink an author--consider Eugene O'Neill or Isaac Asimov. And the same can be said for just about any other criterion you care to name. Of course, some genres, like mysteries and thrillers, generally depend very tightly on plotting. >2nd thoughts: perhaps he said "may not always be necessary", since >in the same interview he he admitted to a preference for machines >and 'science and engineering discoveries' over people; so he's >talking about good old- fashioned 'hard SF'. Right. You're catching on. If people get "X" out of a book, and they really like getting "X", it doesn't matter to them what else is missing. Of course, most of us aren't this simple-minded about reading, and the best of books work on several levels, but I think you get my idea. Kenn Barry explained to me an instance of this earlier. I don't have one ounce of googawphilia, and it never even occurred to me that other people had it, let alone in quantity. But as soon as he mentioned it as a criterion, I suddenly understood why so many people liked _Ringworld_. "Oh, so it was the big ring? Well, sure, if you say so." It's like, I'm no fan of endless puns, but I know there are people who are hopelessly addicted to them. Fine. Let them suffer. Of course, there are some points of view that I wonder about: I did not like that picture; it was too improbable. That the scoundrel kidnaps the pretty heroine is all right, that happens all the time. That the bridge collapses when their carriage is going over it is improbable, but not at all impossible.... That the scoundrel is killed, while the heroine remains precariously suspended over the precipice is even more improbable, yet I am willing to accept it. I am even willing to accept that at that moment Tom Mix is coming by on his white horse to save her. But that at that moment there was also a man with a camera on the spot to photograph the whole scene, that is more than I can stand for. Niels Bohr >Unfortunately, as discussed under sf v sci_fi, Mr. Public doesnt >know that Arthur is referring to a sub_genre. Mr Public can't even bother to read books in the first place, so don't worry about it too much. Read what you like. I read comic books and math books in no small quantity, and most people don't know beans about either. I hardly notice. Matthew P Wiener Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 87 14:55:24 GMT From: seismo!sun!texsun!uokmax!rmtodd@RUTGERS.EDU (Richard Michael From: Todd) Subject: Re: Under even more influences From: Marty Cohen > 1. In the 1950's, the Disney studios created a cartoon (taken from > an earlier book) called "Pigs is Pigs". In it, a railroad > stationmaster is left with two guinea pigs. They are cute, furry, > squeak, and reproduce at a tremendous rate. At the end, the > stationmaster gets rid of them by placing them on a train and > sending them down the line. >Remind you of a well-known episode of a SF TV series? I think the original story was by a man named Ellis Butler. I haven't read the book, but I remember reading in David Gerrold's "The Making of The Trouble With Tribbles" that he was inspired by the story. Richard Todd USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069 UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 87 01:41:35 GMT From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura) Subject: Re: Hyperdriving under the influence... From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >Has anyone ever compiled a list of all of the elements of STAR WARS >tha are lifted virtually intact from other sources? I offer the >following example: > >In the early Seventies, Jack Kirby had a complex interconnecting >series of comic book stories that seem to parallel SW very closely. >There was Darkseid, who even LOOKED like Darth Vader, who The New Gods "paralleled" Star Wars? You've *got* to be kidding!!! Only on the level of there being highly defined good-guys and bad-guys. Both story sets were based on a long tradition of Saturday matinee B grade movies which in turn take their roots back at least as far as the Bible and mythology. As far as who could be taken as having ripped off from the other, I believe Star Wars' first screening predates Kirby's New Gods, but when it comes down to it, I expect that Kirby's work was *not* taken from Star Wars either. The New Gods series series had a fairly long gestation from what I gather. The first drawing were done while he was at Marvel, but the whole concept gelled later. Kirby's work and talent is so widely recognized that anyone who accused him of ripping anyone else off is off his rocker. Besides, Darseid, apart from his dark color doesn't recognize (whoops, I mean *resemble*) Darth Vader at all. He wears no armour. He doesn't have to. If anybody resembles Darth Vader, it's Doctor Doom from the *much* earlier Fantastic Four (yes, Kirby's work again). >also happened to be the father of the hero, Orion. They even had a >mysterious power called "The Source" which was called upon from >time to time. Obi Wan Kenobi was replaced by a character called >Highfather. It has bothered me for years that while George Lucas Highfather's role doesn't correspond to Obi Wan at all. High Father was the leader. Obi Wan is portrayed pretty much a "just another Jedi." He was one of the *last* Jedi, but there is nothing in the storyline that portrays him as the greatest of Jedi or of exceptional ranking among them. In fact, there hasn't been anything in the way of material on the Jedi social order. Clearly Obi Wan treated Yoda with the respect due to a superior, if only in the field of teaching. Darth Vader was Obi Wan's pupil and it seems, something of a failure. >rakes in money by the truckload for stolen ideas, Jack Kirby can't >make a cent off those very ideas. Wellll, I don't think Jack Kirby is starving exactly. DC apparently dropped the New Gods series due to sales (their position). Jack doesn't feel the sales were that bad. Having tried to buy the various issues as they were coming out, I can say that they were hard to find in Toronto. The book buyers and magazine handlers up here really don't know what they're doing in the SF field. Can you believe that you can't find "Robotech Art I" at all? Jim Omura 2A King George's Drive, Toronto, (416) 652-3880 ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 87 03:31:48 GMT From: cmcl2!hp-pcd!uoregon!stevev@RUTGERS.EDU (Steve VanDevender) Subject: Re: Under even more influences All of this talk of how story ideas appear over and over again reminds me of Spider Robinson's "Melancholy Elephants." What I'd really like to see is whether anyone will say "but someone wrote a really similar story to that a long time ago." I suspect that something similar to the "Law of Fives" (the number 5 is connected with anything if you look hard enough) is at work here: The Law of Story Similarity: Any story can be described to be similar to any other as long as you give the shortest possible plot summary. A corollary might be that the shorter the plot summary you give for a story, the more stories can be declared similar to it. After all, doesn't "protagonist overcomes obstacle" describe practically every story ever written? Why doesn't someone write something _original_ that doesn't use that scheme? :-) Steve VanDevender uoregon!drizzle!stevev stevev@oregon1.BITNET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 21 Apr 87 0951-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #167 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Apr 87 0951-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #167 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 21 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 167 Today's Topics: Books - Eddings (3 msgs) & Friedman & Hambly & Tiptree & Humorous SF (2 msgs) & Playing Fair in Novels (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Apr 87 19:43:58 GMT From: harvard!linus!watmath!watnot!jrmartin@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Belgariad: room for improvements Hello. It's me again writing about the Belgariad. I've been no less than amused by the lame criticism's I've heard about the Belgariad recently. I fully accept that there are some people who perhaps did not like the series, and they are quite entitled to their opinion just as I am. However, it seems that after I put up my first letter complimenting Eddings on the work, certain people took it as a personal challenge. To begin with, to say that the Belgariad was completely predictable was more than interesting. It's very easy to say that you knew what was going to happen every step of the way after you've read the book, but I would have been more interested to hear them correctly predict the various surprises BEFORE they had read them. I am quite certain that I could ask many questions of the omniscient readers who claim they guessed everything in advance which they could still not answer. Also, if Eddings is so predictable, how about having these literary prophets read "The Guardians of the West" and tell us all what is going to happen in the next four books. It is my guess that these people will become quite silent when they're prediction abilities are put to the test. Another minor point was their complaint that "everybody got married". This is obviously untrue to anyone who has read the book. It would have been a lot more surprising (and unrealistic) if nobody got married. Look around you. Getting married isn't that uncommon. I could go on, but I am quite sure that I know where our prophets real problem with the Belgariad lies. It was too enjoyable. It was a good book and the good guys won. It wasn't depressing. It seems a common trait of our "literary experts" to only like books which are so depressing as to be insanity. These people undoubtedly worship the likes of Margaret Atwood. Their test of an author is to see how badly the author can make things turn out for the good guys. Well, I hope they enjoy that kind of stuff ... after all, it takes SO MUCH talent to do that. Atwood's books are SO diverse. (I think she even used different names in one of them.) She must be a fan of Thomas Hardy who has proved once and for all that you only really need one idea per lifetime and it doesn't even have to be a good one. Anyway, if it doesn't offend our prophets too much, I am going to once again compliment Eddings on his work. "The Guardians of the West" is spectacular. I'm sure we'll find a few who disagree, but they'll be quite in the minority. Again. JRM ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 00:54:56 GMT From: johne@crash.cts.com (John Cissna) Subject: Re: eddings (SPOILER) beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes: >crew@decwrl.UUCP (Roger Crew) writes: >>Having EVERYONE married off at the end didn't help, either. > >He didnt quite marry off quite EVERYONE. He saved Silk for the >second series. Don't forget Mandeloren didn't get maried off either. Also what about Beldin. Who is he going to get hunched with, I mean hitched with? ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 01:23:30 GMT From: johne@crash.cts.com (John Cissna) Subject: Re: Belgariad: room for improvements jrmartin@watnot.UUCP (James Martin) writes: >Also, if Eddings is so predictable, how about having these literary >prophets read "The Guardians of the West" and tell us all what is >going to happen in the next four books. It is my guess that these >people will become quite silent when they're prediction abilities >are put to the test. I just read the book. What I think they are refering to is that Eddings leaves fairly obvious hints. He doesn't tell us how it is going to happen which is good. Also I think that Guardians of the West is more elusive than the previous series. >Another minor point was their complaint that "everybody got >married". This is obviously untrue to anyone who has read the >book. It would have been a lot more surprising (and unrealistic) >if nobody got married. Look around you. Getting married isn't >that uncommon. Very good point. Also every one didn't. Mandeloren, Silk, and what about good old Beldin that cool dude! >Anyway, if it doesn't offend our prophets too much, I am going to >once again compliment Eddings on his work. "The Guardians of the >West" is spectacular. I'm sure we'll find a few who disagree, but >they'll be quite in the minority. Again. I hate to do this to you but, I liked the book. I am sorry I can't dissagre with you, but I can't please everybody. Most of the people I talk to actually liked his books. The only complaint that I have in his books is that he at times overuses certain phrases, such as. "Silk your a bad man!" In real life this happens all the time. But I don't like it all that much in books. The one thing I like about Eddings is his work isn't a Brain twister. If you want to read a fantasy book you want to lose yourself in it. Not try to get a headache from figuring out plot twists an such. That's what mystery books are for. Also I you have read "The Guardians of the West", you will note that everything is not pink roses for our hero's and that actual tragedy occurs. John Cissna INET: johne@crash.CTS.COM UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd,nosc,akgua,sdcsvax}!crash!johne ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 14:18:30 GMT From: haste#@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: C.S. Friedman and _In Conquest Born_ chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach): >it may be the best piece of Science Fiction published this >year...The book had me up until 2 in the morning two nights in a >row trying to get through it. I don't think In Conquest Born is in serious danger of being the best book of the year, but it's quite good. It kept me up *one* night, till *four* in the morning (which makes great mathematical sense, if you don't look at it too hard). The Azeans and the Braxana have been at war for millenia. The Azeans are the Good Guys -- peace-loving and egalitarian. The Braxana are the Bad Guys -- male-superiority, racial-superiority, war-for-war's-sake types. Truces are always broken by the Braxana. Those stereotypes are true, but they are not the whole truth. The Azeans hate the war, but it's been going so long that they're actually rather comfortable with it. The Braxana profess racial superiority, but their definitions of racial acceptability turn out to be, in some ways, more flexible than those of the Azeans. At the center of the conflict, and the story, are a man and a woman, the best that each side has to offer, and deadly enemies. Both are admirable. Neither is very nice. The book ends with subtle and bitter irony. ddb@viper.UUCP (David Dyer-Bennet): >This books is a clear **** (Hi chuq!). I may award another half >star after a month or so and another reading. I'll go along with that. >I'm stalling, trying to come up with a plot summary for those who >like such things, but I can't. Not even an equivalent of "A guy >with furry feet finds a ring and throws it in a volcano." On second thought, neither can I. >Oh, go read the book yourself. Right. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 04:51:00 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!mooks@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Barbara Hambly's work. Has anyone out there read _The_Silent_Tower_ by Barbara Hambly? Does anyone know anything on the status of _The_Silicon_Mage_ which is the sequel to this book. I have read the first book and highly recommend it. The book deals with a computer operator working for an extremely high-tech company who gets dragged into another world through a hole in space time. The other world is, of course, very magic oriented; while the protagonist's world is present day earth. If you have read Hambly's Darwath Trilogy, you will recognize the basic premise. The premise has been used and (in some cases) overused in science-fiction/ fantasy, however once the earth dweller has reached the other world, the plot has very original and interesting twists which I found very entertaining. The Darwath trilogy (again recommended), while similar in premise, is very different in plot to _The_Silent_Tower_, and is worth reading as well. The_Silent_Tower_, The Darwath trilogy, and the other book of hers that I have read: Dragonsbane, all, I believe, have good characters and they are developed into the story well too. (I haven't read _The_Ladies_of_ Mandrigyn_, however, I have heard good things about it as well.) Sincerely yours, Scott Whitsitt {uiucdcs,cepu,ihnp4}!bradley!bucc2!mooks P.S.: I would appreciate some opinions on Stephen Donaldson's (I think the title is) _The_Mirror_of_Her_Dreams_ and such... ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 21:37:08 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Tiptree Jr. >James Tiptree may be fine, and is indeed a bit old, but she's no >gentleman. Unfortunately, James Tiptree, Jr. is also *dead*. As of about last month. sunybcs!ugcherk ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 87 03:19:46 GMT From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman) Subject: Re: Panshin (was: Re: Funny SF) From: ted@braggvax.arpa > Here's some I haven't seen mentioned yet: > ... >7) Spider Robinson's "Half an Oaf", in an Analog Annual ten > or so years ago. No puns, but it doesn't need them. I think this was also in _Antinomy_ (sic), which unfortunately was remaindered soon after it came out (a great book if you can find a copy of it...). Many, though not all, of the stories from that collection were reprinted in _Melancholy_Elephants_. > 8) Alexi Panshin's Anthony Villers series (hopefully to be > completed some day...). Does ANYONE know if Panshin will ever continue/complete the series? I really enjoyed the first three, and at the end of _Masque_World_, he mentions the "next" book, _The_Ultimate_Pantograph_, which as far as I know was never published. Can anyone tell me more? jed hartman {{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 87 15:19:28 GMT From: rph@nancy (Richard Hughey) Subject: Re: Funny SF ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: >howard@pioneer.UUCP (Lauri Howard) writes: >>And now for something totally different, I'm looking for more >>funny SF writers along the lines of Sheckley, Tenn, Adams, and >>Harrison. I have read a couple of Asprin's > >Have you ever read anything by Stanislaw Lem? He's a Polish SF >writer. Though his themes are usually pretty deep and involve the >fate of societies, he almost always brings his point across in a >ridiculously hilarious way by "reductio ad absurdum." The funniest by far of the Lem books I've read was the Cyberiad, about two "constructors", who galavant around the universe on private [robot] construction jobs. One of the best spots is when they decide to simulate one of their beasts in a fight against the evil king, playing around with mathematical phrases for a few pages. There are 8 or 10 stories about the two constructors in the book. Tremendously good. Richard Hughey Brown University CSNET: rph%cs.brown.edu@relay.cs.net BITNET: rph@browncs {decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!brunix!rph ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 87 19:16:00 GMT From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: River and ring worlds (playing fair) It's been a while since I read Ringworld. Anyway, I only remember two differences between Ringworld and The Ringworld Engineers. In Ringworld, Niven has Wu jump to the wrong conclusion about the origin of Ringworld, because he didn't want to bring in the Paks and the Sea Statue (or whatever). He thought that it would clutter up the ending too much. So that was more or less planned. The other difference I can think of was Ringworld not having any caretakers left on it. He had to change that when someone pointed out that Ringworld was not stable. So that was an error, which he fixed in the second book. Was one of these what you were talking about, or did you have something else in mind? On a similar line, one of my favorite series is the Amber series, by Zelazny. One of the reasons i like it is more or less the reason you didn't like Ringworld--as the series progresses, and Corwin gets more data, he finds out that his previous assumptions as to who did what to whom and why keep changing--rather dramatically. david rickel decwrl!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 87 07:06:32 GMT From: schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz) Subject: Re: River and ring worlds (playing fair) From: ted@braggvax.arpa > ... I had the distinct impression that both Farmer and Niven > believed the initial information when the first books were written > and later changed their minds. Anyone else feel this way? It > ruined _Ringworld Engineers_ for me and I lost all interest in the > Riverworld series. You do have a point. I started to wonder about Ringworld when I read Protector. As Niven later realized, he had to reconcile these two works. So it was necessary that some things be changed in the sequel. I have less sympathy for Farmer. The last couple of Riverworld stories were completely haphazard. I think this is the successful series syndrome in action: a writer has a pretty good series going, and can't bear to make it end, and has to stretch it WAY past its limits to keep it going just a few books longer. Fred Pohl is in the process of doing this with the Gateway series right now. In both these instances, the authors are so caught up in revealing the wonders of their imaginary universes that they forget that suspense and mystery are essential to keep the illusion alive. Making Burton ruler of the Riverworld and Broadhead buddies with the Hechee is totally unsatisfying, and should never have been done, since it makes the whole tapestry less interesting. Louis Wu can have the Ringworld, since (hopefully) there won't be another sequel :-) Scott Schwartz Swarthmore College Computer Science Program UUCP: {{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,sun!liberty}!swatsun!schwartz AT&T: (215)-328-8610 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 19:53:47 GMT From: seismo!uw70!uw-june!ewan@RUTGERS.EDU (Ewan Tempero) Subject: Re: River and ring worlds (playing fair) ted@braggvax.arpa writes: > The recent postings about Farmer's Riverworld brought to mind a > pet peeve I had about those books, and with Niven's _Ringworld > Engineers_. In both cases, we learn that a lot of what we were > toldin the first books is false. What made that especially Oh boy, in which case you will really *hate* _Down in Flames_, the unwritten novel by Niven in which *everything* in the Known space series is false :-) Does anyone still have this on-line anywhere? [Moderator's Note: This file is called T:DOWN-IN-FLAMES.TXT in the archives and is available for anonymous ftp. If you do not have access to ftp, please do not request it by mail.] Ewan Tempero University of Washington UUCP:!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan Internet:ewan@june.cs.washington.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 21 Apr 87 1000-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #168 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Apr 87 1000-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #168 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 21 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 168 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Apr 87 00:34:16 GMT From: umix!umich!msudoc!beach@RUTGERS.EDU (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: CruiseCon oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu.UUCP (Vicarious Oyster) writes: >bverreau@mipos3.UUCP (Bernie Verreau ~) writes: >>One setting that seems conducive to a more relaxed gathering is >>the weekend cruise. >... >>I realize it's more expensive than renting hotel facilities, but >>if you really want to go after a more "mature" crowd, maybe that's >>an advantage. Has this been tried before? > Sign me up! Before people get too enthusiastic about this idea... It has been proposed before - for some similar reasons in fact. I refer of course to the infamous "Bermuda Triangle in '88" worldcon bid. (Wow! Second Place from a record breaking number of votes! Not bad for a joke bid.) To be fair the idea has a few advantages. Here are a few and I'm sure the clever can think up some more. 1. Small size (The SS Norway is the largest cruise ship in the world. The CruiseCon Bid were planning on using it. With a Membership Limit of under 2000.) [In case you're wondering why small size is an advantage - CruiseCon was originally proposed amid discussions about how 6000+ worldcons were unmanageable by most committees and how out of country bids had it easy since they only had 1500-2000 attendees] 2. Professional Staff - the staff of a cruise ship is trained to do many of the things that the ConCom would otherwise have to do for itself - like putting out a con newsletter. 3. Security - Not only do you have a ship crew to do this chore for you - most of it is already done physically by the ship. The Crash Proof Con. 4. Relaxing atmosphere - a cruise ship is a great place to party - in fact it's designed for it. After all of this some of you are asking "Where do I sign?" Well before you send in your registration let's look at the other side of the coin. [Again the clever could think up a LOT more objections than I'm listing] 1. Small Size - A book could be written about this and other articles about the new Boskone have effectively done so. Ill just mention that a CruiseCon is physically limited to <2000 members even more rigidly than holding a con in small hotels is. (NO overflow hotels) Just because the Con has to be limited doesn't tell how it's going to be done. You might need a similar set of criteria to the ones NESFA has set up for Boskone88. It is just as well CruiseCon didn't win because the feuds that would have erupted over how memberships were passed out would have had repersusions in fannish political circles that would have probably lasted into the next century. (.not.:-)) 2. Cost - Bernie Verreau said in the original posting, "I realize it's more expensive than renting hotel facilities..." I wonder if he realizes how much more expensive. I don't remember the exact figures and it would depend of course on what cabin you wanted but you are talking $1000+ for the cheapest cabin exclusive of travel to the port of departure and back (the Norway leaves from Miami.) This factor eliminates any local poor but serious SF fans from the con and it becomes the con of the Haves vs the Have Nots causing even more political problems. This is also before incidental costs like the artshow & huckster room. Of course I may be doing Bernie's awareness an injustice. 3. Function Space and Programming - Just as a Cruise Ship is set up to do many of the things than a con needs to do, they are also not set up to do some of them. One of these things is handling multi tracks of Convention Programming. The ship expects to entertain its passengers with its fixed attractions like the bar and casino. Something could probably be rigged to make do. Either sacrificing cabins or holding somethings out on the deck (if the weather is good) 4. Huckster Room and Art Show - Read the above comments about function space. There is no, repeat no secure place on board where such things can be set up and then left unattended all night. 5. Obscure Tax advantages - I dont know much about these and they applied mainly to the WorldCon and attending its business meeting - they may not be relevant to Boskone and tax reform may have modified them - but there were a lot of howls when it was discovered that these deductions didn't apply. As I mentioned above the clever could come up with more. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 20 Apr 1987 07:11:43-PDT From: moreau%bpt.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (Ken Moreau) Subject: Boskone My wife and I have been to every Boskone since I discovered it at Noreascon II (in 1979). We have taken my daughter to the last 2. We have always enjoyed ourselves, and plan to go to all future Boskones as long as we can physically make the trip. Having said that, I want to publicly applaud NESFA and the Boskone Committee for taking the actions they did. By trying to exclude the party animals, and to include the serious SF fans, I think they will make the next Boskone a more enjoyable experience for my family and I than the last 2 have been. I find it difficult to enjoy myself during the day after having had no sleep the previous night because there was a very loud party going on outside my hotel room door until 3:30 in the morning, both Friday and Saturday night. I also found it difficult to enjoy myself when I had to climb the stairs to my hotel room (21st floor) twice in one night because the damn fire alarms kept going off. I never saw any vandalism. I never saw any people pulling fire alarms. But I cannot believe that the hotel (or the Boston Fire Department) has >5 false alarms per night every night that Boskone was not there, such as they had while Boskone was there. It seems to me that some activities of the people at the hotel that weekend (whether attending Boskone or not) had to be causing the fire alarms. And given that people attending Boskone took over a large percentage of the hotel, it seems reasonable to me to put the blame on some of the attendees (whether members or not) of Boskone. While I do not agree with every action taken by NESFA (I am particularly unhappy with the "Discourage costumes" idea) I think they have taken sound and (relatively) fair action. I support any and all actions they have taken or will take, to try and get Boskone back to being what (I believe) it is: a chance for people who enjoy SF to get together with others of the same mind. Thank you Don Eastlake, Ann Broomhead, and others I do not know. Here are three Boskone attendees who are firmly behind you. And to all the people complaining about the rules (Snobcon, et al), if you don't like the rules, run your own damn con with your own ideas of how to do it better. But until you have done so, don't come on all high and mighty about things you know nothing about. Ken Moreau ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 87 22:26:58 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was Re: SnobCon) >> Well, fine. Let "them" go ahead. Gee, funny how no one who's >> complaining so loudly about the situation is volunteering to do >> that. Any group How many of those complaining live in Boston? Have you ever tried to organize a con when you can't afford to go there every weekend or even more often to get it set up? Once a year may be easy, but once a week can drain budgets. I would be willing to help set up a con. In Cleveland, since that is where I am. I doubt that a ``Bosklone'' would benefit much from my help over here, so I do not offer. However, if you want to hold one at the I-X center, I'd be glad to help. [Note: I was not one of those who flamed Boskone/NESFA, since I'm not likely to make it to *any* con on my schedule and my budget, unless it is reasonably near (i.e. Chicago is pushing it).] Logistics count for something, you know. Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, OH 44060 +01 216 255 1080 cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@relay.cs.net ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 17:14:44 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Boskone >And to all the people complaining about the rules (Snobcon, et al), >if you don't like the rules, run your own damn con with your own >ideas of how to do it better. But until you have done so, don't >come on all high and mighty about things you know nothing about. Hear! Hear! If you think you can run a better con, go run it. Constructive criticism is one thing, but little of the stuff I've seen in this discussion is more than immature bitching. If you don't like it, then (1) vote with your feet or (2) do it better yourself. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 18:18:43 GMT From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) Subject: Re: Boskone moreau%bpt.DEC@decwrl.dec.com writes: >And to all the people complaining about the rules (Snobcon, et al), >if you don't like the rules, run your own damn con with your own >ideas of how to do it better. But until you have done so, don't >come on all high and mighty about things you know nothing about. I have complained about the new rules once or twice, so I think I qualify to respond directly to that childish and ignorant comment. First, I don't think you know me, or the range of things I know about. Cons aren't in that range, that's true. But your implication that if someone hasn't done something they aren't qualified to criticize it is ridiculous and unfounded. How many people have been president of the United States? How many people have successfully launched a space shuttle? How many people have ever run a nuclear power plant? You're right, I know nothing about running a convention. I probably couldn't do it without many months of preparation and a lot of experienced help. But if you tell me that until I have run my own con I have nothing valid to say on the subject then you're the one venturing out of his realm of experience. Believe it or not, people sometimes make valid observations. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 06:04:41 GMT From: galloway@vaxa.isi.edu (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: Arrrgh! Not another Boskone (Borekone?) posting!?! I don't think Steve Lamont read the posting from George Greene, Jr. that Shoshanna Green was refering to. Shoshanna was not flaming George for making a suggestion about how a con should be run despite George's self-proclaimed total inexperience in any sort of con organization; what she was flaming was George's attitude that because he thought x was obvious, if an experienced con organizer didn't immediately agree with him that x was correct, then clearly the con organizer was being elitist and unfair. George Greene has (or at least conveys it with almost every statement in his Boskone postings) the attitude that any idea he has *must* be correct, even though he's totally inexperienced. This is quite different from someone writing something on the order of "Does anyone know if NESFA has thought of having next year's Boskone in more than one hotel. I think that might solve their problems". If George had posted something like that, I would have responded politely as to why I didn't think it was a good idea. But when someone who, to me as someone experienced in this field, clearly doesn't know what s/he's talking about starts presenting unworkable ideas as absolute truth and incredibly obvious, despite not having to do any of the work that said idea might involve, I, and apparantly Shoshanna, tend to take a bit of offense at that attitude. When I was inexperienced in con organization, I made some stupid suggestions as well. The thing is, I phrased them as suggestions, and listened to the reasons given by more experienced con organizers as to why the suggestion was unworkable. Next, I acknowledge that SIGGRAPH is an order of magnitude larger than Boskone, and has been held in several hotels. But SIGGRAPH is a professional convention, not an sf convention. I seriously doubt that anyone went to SIGGRAPH for the parties held there (the films, maybe :-)). I doubt there were many people crashing SIGGRAPH looking for the hospitality suites. I doubt there were many attendees under drinking age looking to score some booze. SIGGRAPH and other professional conventions are a different type of con from an sf con, most importantly in terms of the style of socialization and the amount of business that the average con attendee will conduct at the convention. Finally, Steve wrote that "'Can't' isn't the same thing as 'don't want to'." In some cases, it is. For example; "We can't do that because if we did we'd put in so much work on the con that we'd lose our jobs over it". While that could be rewritten as "We don't want to...", I think can't is acceptable there. If x is just not feasible given the maximum reasonable amount of work by a known sized committtee, then it's not that they don't want to, it's that given the known constraints, they can't. He also proposes that "perhaps Boskone needs professional management". Well, that wouldn't help much now; next year's con will only be about 1500-2000 people. And the cost of having pro management would probably push the registration fee into triple digits. tyg ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 20:47:43 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Arrrgh! Not another Boskone (Borekone?) posting!?! From: LAMONTS%SDS.SDSCNET@nmfecc.arpa [Steve Lamont quotes me replying to George Greene:] >Ms. Shoshanna Green opines: >>When you offer solutions in that manner, you are implicitly >>claiming that you know better how to run the con than the people >>who are blind enough not to see such an obvious answer. If you >>don't know anything about how to run a con, stop acting as though >>you think you do. > > AAAAARGGGGH! Ignoring the dubious syntax, which I put down to >either the heat of the moment or the lack of proof reading, >implicit in Ms Green's comment is the assertion that _only_ those >who run the con are allowed make suggestions on how the con is run. >By extension, only those running the government should be allowed >to make suggestions on how the government should be run. Hmmm... >I guess we can just chuck those first ten amendments to the >Constitution and scratch the first Tuesday following the first >Monday in November off the calendar, since we don't need to hear >from the rabble. Tom Galloway has defended me, but I want to clarify. I did not by any means intend what Steve is reading, that only those in power can comment. What I was flaming was George's tendency to say in one breath that he knows nothing about running a con, and in the next that there is a clear solution being overlooked by a presumably stupid con committee. We all have the right to make suggestions (or at least no one can stop us). Plenty of suggestions are constructive ones. But George seems to think that his opinions are fact. The key words in my response are "in that manner"; i.e. the problem was that he was not saying "why don't you try multiple hotels", but rather saying "clearly multiple hotels will solve the problem, and if the Boskone committee can't see that they are fools, or else they have some lazy or snobbish reason for not wanting to run a multiple-hotel con." Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 21 Apr 87 1021-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #169 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Apr 87 1021-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #169 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 21 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 169 Today's Topics: Films - THX 1138 (8 msgs) & Day of the Triffids (3 msgs) & Japanimation (2 msgs) & Good SF Movies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Apr 87 03:28:16 GMT From: harvard!linus!watmath!ccplumb@RUTGERS.EDU (Colin Plumb) Subject: THX 1138 maslak@sri-unix.UUCP (Valerie Maslak) writes: > THX whatever it was I remember this as THX 1138. I saw it once at about 3:00 AM, and I was 90% brain-dead at the time. Although my memory is probably wildly inaccurate, I remember hearing that it was something George Lucas did really early (sorry, no hard date), and, kind of interesting, I recall a scene in Star Wars when Luke gets into a stormtrooper's uniform, the control tower calls him and says "THX 1138! THX 1138! Why aren't you responding?" Can someone refute or validate these claims? If true, they make an interesting trivia point. Also, apologies if this has been hashed out before. Colin Plumb watmath!ccplumb ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 87 03:31:54 GMT From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: THX 1138 ccplumb@watmath.UUCP (Colin Plumb) writes: >I remember this as THX 1138. I saw it once at about 3:00 AM, and I >was 90% brain-dead at the time. Although my memory is probably >wildly inaccurate, I remember hearing that it was something George >Lucas did really early (sorry, no hard date), and, kind of >interesting, I recall a scene in Star Wars when Luke gets into a >stormtrooper's uniform, the control tower calls him and says "THX >1138! THX 1138! Why aren't you responding?" > >Can someone refute or validate these claims? THX1138 began as a student film Lucas did at USC. That version consisted basically of the long chase at the end of the commercial version. Somebody at the studios (Universal?) liked it, and financed turning it into a commercial film. It became Lucas' first release. There's a semi-mention of THX that Mark Hamill ad-libbed, "prisoner transfer from cell block 1138". I believe the number used in the scene you're thinking of was TK421; still a little similar, I guess. I believe there's also a car in AMERICAN GRAFFITI with the license number THX 138; anybody know for sure? Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 87 02:25:07 GMT From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (T. Russell Flanagan) Subject: Re: THX 1138 watmath!ccplumb (Colin Plumb) writes: >I remember this as THX 1138. I saw it once at about 3:00 AM, and I >was 90% brain-dead at the time. Although my memory is probably >wildly inaccurate, I remember hearing that it was something George >Lucas did really early (sorry, no hard date), and, kind of >interesting, I recall a scene in Star Wars when Luke gets into a >stormtrooper's uniform, the control tower calls him and says "THX >1138! THX 1138! Why aren't you responding?" Actually, the reference in this film was slightly later than that, when Luke and Han, dressed in Imperial Stormtrooper Armor, are escorting Chewtobaco around inside the DeathStar, and they reach the cell-block where Leia is being held. Luke calmly reports "Prisoner transfer from cell block 1138." Just for the record, one of the cars in American Graffiti had a license plate which read THX-138. As I understand it, several of Lucas's films have such references, though these are the only two I am aware of. T. Russell Flanagan ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 87 04:56:55 GMT From: BCSCHONE@pucc.princeton.edu (Brian Schoner) Subject: Re: THX 1138 ccplumb@watmath.UUCP (Colin Plumb) writes: >maslak@sri-unix.UUCP (Valerie Maslak) writes: >> THX whatever it was >I remember this as THX 1138. I saw it once at about 3:00 AM, and I >was 90% I remember hearing that it was something George Lucas did >really early (sorry, no hard date), and, kind of interesting, I >recall a scene in Star Wars when Luke gets into a stormtrooper's >uniform, the control tower calls him and says "THX 1138! THX 1138! >Why aren't you responding?" > >Can someone refute or validate these claims? True on both counts...THX 1138 was Lucas' first movie, and he DID enjoy referring to it in his later, more successful ventures...for example, the licence plate on Harrison Ford's car in American Graffitti was numbered...you guessed it...THX 1138! Brian Schoner ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 87 20:07:35 GMT From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell) Subject: Re: THX 1138 watmath!ccplumb (Colin Plumb) writes: >I remember this as THX 1138. I saw it once at about 3:00 AM, and I >was 90% brain-dead at the time. Although my memory is probably >wildly inaccurate, I remember hearing that it was something George >Lucas did really early (sorry, no hard date), and, kind of >interesting, I recall a scene in Star Wars when Luke gets into a >stormtrooper's uniform, the control tower calls him and says "THX >1138! THX 1138! Why aren't you responding?" You're very very close. In the movie, the name used by the control tower was similar, but was not THX 1138. However, in the BOOK, the tower DOES call him THX 1138. I was surprised that they changed it. Chris Russell Computer Aided Design Lab University of Maryland Arpa: russell@king.ee.umd.edu UUCP: ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell Jnet: russell@umcincom Fone: (301)454-8886 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 87 19:29:24 GMT From: seismo!sdcsvax!man!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith) Subject: Re: THX 1138 ccplumb@watmath.UUCP (Colin Plumb) writes: >I remember this as THX 1138. I saw it once at about 3:00 AM, and I >was 90% brain-dead at the time. Although my memory is probably >wildly inaccurate, I remember hearing that it was something George >Lucas did really early (sorry, no hard date), and, kind of >interesting, I recall a scene in Star Wars when Luke gets into a >stormtrooper's uniform, the control tower calls him and says "THX >1138! THX 1138! Why aren't you responding?" > >Can someone refute or validate these claims? I can't say for sure in the film, though I seem to remember it, but it is definitely in the novelization. I've heard that while you're waiting in line for Star Tours at Disneyland, one of the background bits is something to do with THX-1138. I think it's about a landspeeder with those plates. David L. Smith sdcsvax!sdamos!sdeggo!dave ihnp4!jack!man!sdeggo!dave hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave sdeggo!dave@sdamos.ucsd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 18:10:22 GMT From: kaufman@ORION.ARPA (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: THX 1138 tim@reed.UUCP (T. Russell Flanagan) writes: >..."Prisoner transfer from cell block 1138." >Just for the record, one of the cars in American Graffiti had a >license plate which read THX-138. As I understand it, several of >Lucas's films have such references, though these are the only two I >am aware of. Just a note: There's also the seaplane at the beginning of _Raider's_ _of_the_Lost_Arc_, with the call letters "OB-C3PO" (or something like that); and the bar at the begining of _Indiana_Jones_ was the Obi Wan Cafe. And, as for _THX-1138_, I was absolutely disappointed with it, especially the black hologram character--silly stuff. The movie actaully worked better as a (15 minute, maybe?) college project. Bill Kaufman lll-crg!ames-titan!ames!orion!kaufman kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.GOV ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 03:30:27 GMT From: rochester!ritcv!pxd3563@RUTGERS.EDU (Patrick A. Deupree) Subject: Re: THX 1138 In "Raiders Of The Lost Ark" there is a little "Star Wars" reference on the wall behind the pedestal that the golden head is resting on. It is pretty near impossible to see, but on the wall there are a bunch of hieroglyphics and among them there is a picture of C3-PO in an egyption pose and R2-D2 standing right next to him. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 18:12:12 GMT From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) Subject: Day of the Triffids (was Re: *GOOD* SF Movies) alainew@tekcae.TEK.COM (Alaine Warfield) writes: > John Wyndham's "Day of the Triffids" is a great movie, mostly on > the intellectual level. It describes a world in which man's space > defenses have backfired and cause almost everyone in the world to > go blind. I was surprised to find that the book was written in > the 40's or 50's as it has so much insight in the problems facing > us today. > > The movie is British and is extremely faithful to the book, which > makes the movie about 4 hours long but definitely worth it. I'm confused, but I don't see any smiley faces, or detect any noticeable level of sarcasm; the message wasn't even posted on April 1, so I've got to take it at face value. The movie that I've seen called "The Day of the Triffids" does bear some relation to the book I've read called "The Day of the Triffids", but "faithful" is not the word I would've chosen to describe it. Let me point out what bothers me in the above posting: 1) "a great movie, mostly on the intellectual level" This strikes me as being akin to the comments finding political commentary in "The Wizard of Oz". It's a great monster movie, but not terribly intellectual. 2) "It describes a world in which man's space defenses have backfired and cause almost everyone in the world to go blind." I don't recall anything having to do with space defenses in either movie or book. It was a meteor shower in both that caused the blindness. The time period of the book may be a little in advance of "today", but the movie is certainly the "today" of the mid '60s, so no space defense exist. 3) "it has so much insight in the problems facing us today." If so, it's completely coincidental. The problems in book and movie aren't related to our present-day problems (of course, since I don't live in Oregon, where the posting originated, I may not have the same familiarity with giant ambulatory carnivorous plants as the average Oregonian :-)). 4) "The movie is British" This is the first item I can solidly agree with. 5) "and is extremely faithful to the book" Well, the book and movie do share some common scenes: mostly everyone goes blind, and the triffids prey upon the blind population in each, but that's about it. The book has nothing like the couple in the lighthouse, and the movie merely glosses over the collapse and reconstruction of civilization. The scene in the movie involving the looters and the...what is it, a girls' school?... is close in spirit to the book, but that's about all. As far as the ending of the movie goes, well, I take it with a grain of salt. 6) "the movie about 4 hours long" Nope. This film must clock in around two phours, uncut, probably less. Hey, if I've risen to bait dangled by someone who thought the "Berserker" posting a clever idea but didn't want to wait a full year, OK, I'll wear the cap and bells and smile. But if you're serious, Alaine, you really need to check your memory or library or something... Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!rutgers!elbereth!cje ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 20:25:12 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: Re: Day of the Triffids (was Re: *GOOD* SF Movies) cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) writes: >alainew@tekcae.TEK.COM (Alaine Warfield) writes: >> John Wyndham's "Day of the Triffids" is a great movie, mostly on >> the intellectual level... > >I'm confused, but I don't see any smiley faces, or detect any >noticeable level of sarcasm; the message wasn't even posted on >April 1, so I've got to take it at face value... Two different movies. The earlier one is real monster-movie hokum, with triffids eating people (crunch, crunch). Chris describes it pretty well. The later one was shown as a TV series, is faithful to the book, about 4 hours long, and all that other good stuff, and presumably is the one Alaine saw. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 21:52:08 GMT From: spr@miro.berkeley.edu (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) Subject: Re: Day of the Triffids (was Re: *GOOD* SF Movies) The BBC produced a three part special called "The Day of the Triffids" which I saw over Christmas break one evening on a local PBS station. [SPOILER WARNING] In this version, Triffids were plants altered by man because they produced a benefit for oil companies. The man who we see with the bandage over his eyes worked with Triffids on a Triffid farm, and was blinded by one (temporarily). Also, the "meteor" shower is implied or suggested that it is a breaking satellite that somehow resulted in blinding people who looked at it ( a weapon perhaps?) and that a disease that appears later on could be from a biological weapons warehouse. I never read the book, so I can't say how faithful it is. Sean Rouse ARPA: spr@miro.berkeley.edu UUCP: ...ucbvax!miro!spr USnail: 315 International House 2299 Piedmont Ave Berkeley, Ca 94720 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 13:22:54 GMT From: orchid!mwtilden@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Some Japanimation Questions. pxd3563@ritcv.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) writes: >1. Like Jim I have never heard of "Summer Macross 84". I have >heard of the Macross Movie (or Macross, the movie), and the others >that he mentioned. I have heard that there is supposed to be a >Robotech movie sometime. I have also heard that there are supposed >to be new episodes of Robotech coming out sometime dealing with >what happens to Rick Hunter and Lisa Hayes after the first series. Alas my informed sources reveal that Harmony Gold has dropped the Robotech line. Only three episodes of the new series were ever completed and then stopped due to lack of funds. Whatever they're doing now, it ain't Japanese animation. On the good side though, the ROBOTECH movie has been released along with a reasonable translation of MACROSS 84 to your local video store. Has anybody seen them? I don't get out enough to really check. Keeping the faith... Mark Tilden M.F.C.F Hardware Design Lab. Un. of Waterloo. Canada, N2L-3G1 work: (519)-885-1211 ext.2457 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 08:01:18 GMT From: malloy@crash.cts.com (Sean Malloy) Subject: Re: Some Japanimation Questions. pxd3563@ritcv.UUCP (Patrick Deupree) writes: >1. Like Jim I have never heard of "Summer Macross 84". I have >heard of This was the feature-length Macross movie made in Japan in the summer of 1984. The Macross movies (distinguished from the Robotech movie) bear little or no relation to the plot of the series, other than having the same characters and enemies. >2. I don't know about "Gemma Wars" but I have heard of a movie >called "Gemma Tyson"(sp?). This is "Genma Taisen", also known as "Harmageddon" or "The Great Dream War". Sean Malloy {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!malloy ARPA: crash!malloy@nosc Naval Personnel Research and Development Center San Diego, CA 92152-6800 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 09:00:03 GMT From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies maslak@sri-unix.UUCP (Valerie Maslak) writes: >For pretty good ones, how about: > >Brazil >Charley >The "Mad Max Trilogy" >THX whatever it was I would like to add: "The Man in The White Suit" Alex Guiness (Black and White) My favorite eccentric scientist picture. "Why no, you can't fire me. I don't work here." "Phase 4" The most original science ideas I've seen in a long time. So, what if the plot was a little weak... Victor O'Rear {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 21 Apr 87 1030-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #170 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Apr 87 1030-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #170 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 21 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 170 Today's Topics: Television - Starman & Max Headroom (8 msgs) & Doctor Who & Blake's 7 & The Prisoner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thursday, 2 Apr 1987 08:17:39-PST From: devi%bootes.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: STARMAN >Having an alien criticize human beings...is..an extremely old >cliche But - that's one of the things that isn't done on this show. The alien doesn't take sides - he stays neutral - and forces people to look at themselves and what they are doing. He doesn't have a holier than thou attitude. In fact, he's more humble than most "people" he runs into. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Apr 87 12:03:24 EDT From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (John White) Subject: Max Headroom ****** I suppose that some of the below could be SPOILERS! ****** Has anyone out there seen both the 'Original' Max Headroom (I saw it on video) and the 'Series Opener' of Max Headroom (shown on ABC)? Did anyone who saw both notice how much 'cleaner' the TV Series version was? There wasn't as much shown of the environment - most of it was inside the TV23 building. They even removed the 'Cross-Hatch Generator' bit, and had Max escape 'Into the System' after hearing the president of TV23 threatening to erase his memory. What does everyone out there think of the changes they made, and will the series fare well in prime time, and WHY WASN'T THERE ANY WARNING OF THIS ON THE NET????????? jl ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 87 15:47:25 GMT From: elliott@aero.ARPA (Ken Elliott) Subject: Re: Max Headroom From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (John White) > Has anyone out there seen both the 'Original' Max Headroom (I >saw it on video) and the 'Series Opener' of Max Headroom (shown >on ABC)? I saw the Series Opener version, but not the original (British, I guess) version, and am dying to know what the hell the difference is. I surmise there were more 'scenery shots' in the original, there weren't as many security guards on level 13, etc., etc., but haven't got the full story. Could someone please *mail* me a summary of the original, and I'll post it to the net. And yes, if I had a VCR, I'd go out and rent it; I have the dubious honor of being the only person in CA without a VCR. :-) Ken Elliott elliott@aerospace.aero.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 87 17:52 EST From: Subject: Max Headroom Greetings in netland, I've been away from the net for about a month (two actually, but I'm trying hard right now not to think about work). So I apologize in advance if this has been discussed recently. However, I am mucho curious about people's reactions to Max Headroom (on Tuesday nights on ABC I think). Without giving away much, Max seems to be an independent personality of some type living in electronic land (the television or computer nets of the future as in 20 minutes into the future). The other main characters center around channel 23 a television station's news department. The settings look like something out of the BBC. So what do you think? I have to admit that I was left curious enough to come back next week. Still it seemed a little flat. That could be due to early character development. On the other hand. It is probably the best thing coming out of North American tv that calls itself s.f. these days. (which ain't saying much.) alf...alf...alf (read barf...barf...barf) See you in netlands Danny ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 23:15:32 GMT From: netxcom!rwhite@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Max Headroom **SPOILERS** From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (John White) > Has anyone out there seen both the 'Original' Max Headroom (I >saw it on video) and the 'Series Opener' of Max Headroom (shown >on ABC)? Did anyone who saw both notice how much 'cleaner' >the TV Series version was? There wasn't as much shown of the >environment - most of it was inside the TV23 building. They even >removed the 'Cross-Hatch Generator' bit, and had Max escape 'Into >the System' after hearing the president of TV23 threatening to erase >his memory. What does everyone out there think of the changes they >made, and will the series fare well in prime time, and WHY WASN'T >THERE ANY WARNING OF THIS ON THE NET????????? I've seen the original Max H. The TV opener was supposedly refilmed on the west coast. Only two actors/actresses were in the opener and the original: the guy who plays Eddison/Max and his controller. In next weeks show another original actor appears to be in it from what I can tell from the previews. The guy who played the husband renegade TV network owner (the one in the truck/van). They really reworked the Max H. concept for the series in the US. To be honest the original Max H. was very strange and difficult to follow at times. Probably deliberately. It was much more hard edged. The series is softened up a bit for US audiences. Also they changed things so that Max and Eddison meet in the series. The series is more simply presented without letting the audience work too hard to figure out what's going on. Not unexpected. I really like the series. The interplay between Max and Eddison is funny and interesting (actually the interplay between Max and anyone is funny). They're using some good actors: Eddison's boss is/was the judge on Hill Street Blues. It will probably last a while (at least one season) due to Blade Runner/Road Warrier/Brazil fans and the press, I hope. It does remind me of Brazil a lot, anyone else? Sorry but I am terrible with names. I'm lucky I remembered Max's. seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite work: 703-749-2384 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 87 19:40:13 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Hyperdriving under the influence... Does anyone remember a short-lived TV show that came out shortly after the first Star Wars movie? It was called Quark. I don't remember it all that well, but it was a kind of parody of both Star Wars and Star Trek (mostly the former). It featured a space ship that was an interstellar garbage scow. It roamed around looking for "space baggies," which were gigantic Hefty-style garbage bags floating in space. It had a crew member who was a "plant." (Kinduv like Mr. Spock is a Vulcan?) They had a mysterious all-pervading power called "The Source" (like The Force). I remember once that the hero needed to let The Source guide him while he was temporarily blinded, and it was this voice that gave him directions like, "Now turn left -- no, wait, I mean RIGHT..." It was a pretty funny show while it lasted. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 87 21:24:24 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Max Headroom **SPOILERS** WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET writes: > I've seen the original Max H. The TV opener was supposedly > refilmed on the west coast. Only two actors/actresses were in the > opener and the original: the guy who plays Eddison/Max and his > controller. In next weeks show another original actor appears to > be in it from what I can tell from the previews. The guy who > played the husband renegade TV network owner (the one in the > truck/van). I think he was really one of my favorites in the original- he had CHARACTER! 8-) > They really reworked the Max H. concept for the series in the US. > To be honest the original Max H. was very strange and difficult to > follow at times. Probably deliberately. It was much more hard > edged. Yeeaahhh, I suppose you MIGHT get that impression... Reworked? How does 60% altered sound? If this was a cat, it'd be hamburger, not sterile! The origional Max was... Unique, I'll grant that- but one thing I found interesting was that I watched the original with one guy who reads SOME SF, and three who are so/so about SF, and a certain relative (I'm so ashamed of her! 8-) who Loathes it with a capital "L". I go through enough SF and fantasy, in addition to technical books, texts, etc., in a year to constitute a minor deciduous forest, meself. (Enough to keep my eyes weak and my mind altered at all times :-) I had no real trouble following the original. The SOME guy was confused at several points, the three were ususally lost, and the last hated it. Maybe SF helps to follow SF? This has nothing to do with whether or not you were lost at some points- so was I, a few times, until it was later cleared up in the show. I'm just wondering if anyone else noticed similar trouble from non-science fiction (etc.) readers? > The series is softened up a bit for US audiences. Also they > changed things so that Max and Eddison meet in the series. The > series is more simply presented without letting the audience work > too hard to figure out what's going on. Not unexpected. I really > like the series. The interplay between Max and Eddison is funny > and interesting (actually the interplay between Max and anyone is > funny). They're using some good actors: Eddison's boss is/was the > judge on Hill Street Blues. It will probably last a while (at > least one season) due to Blade Runner/Road Warrier/Brazil fans and > the press, I hope. It does remind me of Brazil a lot, anyone > else? Sorry but I am terrible with names. I'm lucky I remembered > Max's. Yeah, the series was fair. (Read: about 200% better than most of the crud being beamed out at us from our home particle guns. 8-) I still liked the origional better, though. Why take out the cross-hatch generator? To eliminate complications due to BigTime's van and suchlike? Ah, well. We'll see what next week brings! Eric ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 03:39:11 GMT From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) Subject: Max Headroom question What exactly is a cross-hatch generator? Karen Williams g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 87 05:27:00 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!porsche@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Max Headroom I personally liked the Max Headroom episodes that I have viewed so far(the premiere and the following week's episode). It is nice to see a show that doesn't restrict the imagination of its writers. I have not yet seen the home video release, (I have heard it is a bit different) but is there any reason to?? Besides, it's nice to see that ABC is not putting on another BORING cop show containing stupid car chases and sappy plots... ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 87 05:07:34 GMT From: harvard!linus!watmath!looking!brad@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: TRIAL OF A TIME LORD / DR. WHO SEASON 23 From: Jonathan L Burstein > "Trial of a Time Load" >I caught most of it. Very, very good. Highly recommended. I assume this is an April Fool's joke. It was perhaps the worst season of Doctor Who ever filmed. If you are a fan, and it hasn't been shown in your area, avoid it when it comes on, you will feel better. It's fairly self-contained. Mild spoilers.... One companion leaves gratuitously. Another joins without an introduction sequence. Events occur written by writers seemingly ignorant of show history (Hard to believe for Holmes) and these events will take some effort to reverse. Just avoid it, especially the last one. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 87 01:18:39 GMT From: rochester!ritcv!pxd3563@RUTGERS.EDU (Patrick A. Deupree) Subject: Re: Blakes 7 episode list wanted Here is the list of episode's for Blakes 7 (The four seasons that the show ran are refered to as series A, B, C, and D in the book that I am getting this list from. Series A: (Jan. 2, 1978 to Mar. 27, 1978) 1. The Way Back (intro. Blake, Jenna, & Vila) 2. Space Fall (intro. Avon, Gan, & Zen(Liberator)) 3. Cygnus Alpha 4. Time Squad (intro. Cally) 5. The Web 6. Seek-Locate-Destroy (intro. Servalan & Travis) 7. Mission To Destiny 8. Duel 9. Project Avalon 10. Breakdown 11. Bounty 12. Deliverance (intro. Orac) 13. Orac (Orac predicts destruction of Liberator) Series B: (Jan. 9, 1979 to Apr. 3, 1979) 1. Redemption (Destruction of Liberator type ship) 2. Shadow 3. Weapon 4. Horizon 5. Pressure Point (Gan dies) 6. Trial 7. Killer 8. Hostage 9. Countdown 10. Voice From The Past 11. Gambit 12. The Keeper 13. Star One (Federation computer destroyed. Travis dies) Series C: (Jan. 7, 1980 to Mar. 31, 198) 1. Aftermath (Crew leaves Liberator so it can repair itself. Intro. Dayna) 2. Powerplay (Intro. Tarrant) 3. Volcano 4. Dawn Of The Gods 5. The Harvest Of Kairos 6. The City At The Edge Of The World 7. Children Of Auron 8. Rumors Of Death 9. Sarcophagus 10. Ultraworld 11. Moloch 12. Death-Watch 13. Terminal (Destruction of Liberator. Blake appearance) Series D: (Sept. 28, 1981 to Dec. 21, 1981) 1. Rescue (Intro Scorpio (and Slave) & Soolin. Death of Cally) 2. Power 3. Traitor 4. Stardrive (Scorpio gets a very fast Stardrive) 5. Animals 6. Headhunter 7. Assassin 8. Games 9. Sand 10. Gold 11. Orbit 12. Warlord 13. Blake (Destruction of Scorpio. Death of Blake, Soolin, & Dayna) Anyway, that is the basic episode guide. I got it from a book I have called "Blakes 7, The Programme Guide" by Tony Attwood. There is another book out called "Afterlife" also by Tony Attwood. According to the series it was not sure whether Vila or Tarrant survived because there was gun fire and everyone but Avon went down. Basically Avon killed Blake (supposedly because he thought that Blake was a traitor). Afterlife is a very good book and if anyone can find it I would suggest reading it. I found a copy of it at DoubleDay books in Stamfoord, CT. These are the only books that I know about, but the Programme guide has a synopsis of all the episodes in it along with photos from the show and a few interviews with the actors. There is also an index in the back with all of the important terms and people from the series. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 87 20:19:34 GMT From: seismo!isis!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok) Subject: The Prisoner I was wondering if any or all of the episodes of "The Prisoner" are out on videotape and if so, where I could get them. Also, along the same lines, are there any novelizations of any of the episodes? Though they show them here in Denver (and on PBS stations in many other cities, too), I always seem to see the same ones over and over again. Are there any other Prisoner/McGoohan fans out there? For some reason, even though "The Prisoner" is his lesser-known series (I would think many more people know about the "Secret Agent" one), I always like it better. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 21 Apr 87 1042-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #171 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Apr 87 1042-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #171 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 21 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 171 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Apr 87 05:41:15 GMT From: galloway@vaxa.isi.edu (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was Re: SnobCon) In response to two postings by George "It must be right because I think it's obvious, even if I have no experience in whatever it is" Greene, Jr.; First, to my knowledge, as someone who's lived in Boston for about 2 years off and on (although not any more recently than 1985), there is no "cluster" of hotels there that I would consider appropriate for a Boskone. By appropriate, I mean spaced closely enough together to make getting between them take no more than 1 minute, and that have suitable convention facilities. Second, since I, unlike Greene, know that I'm not infallible here, I assume that NESFA, if they wished to have a Boskone in multiple hotels (which due to logistic problems *I* certainly wouldn't want to try), are checking for that sort of situation using resources such as the Boston Convention Bureau (or whatever it's called). I suspect that NESFA would agree with me that the extra hassles of running a 4500 person con every year over a series of hotels is just not worth it, even if this *hypothetical* cluster of hotels that George is so fond of even exists. Also, George, I certainly believe that of any local sf convention organizing group in the country, NESFA would be best able to handle a distributed con. That doesn't mean that I think the con would be a success, or that NESFA would or should want to add even more work to the *extremely* large amount of *volunteer* labor they're already putting in on Boskone. And in yet another misstatement by George, he queries about the 1989 Boston Worldcon "bid". Boston was awarded the '89 Worldcon last September, which has been mentioned several times in this series of postings. MCFI (not NESFA, although there is overlap in the membership) is working with the Sheraton in regards to the already signed contract for rooms for Noreascon. All, or just about all, of the official functions will be taking place in the Hynes Auditorium. I was going to thoroughly roast George's long posting in response to my response to him, but Shoshanna Green beat me to it in many ways. So I'll limit myself to points she didn't cover, or which I feel should be emphasized. Point one: George has stated in his own words that "[He] DO[es] NOT KNOW ANYTHING about how to run an SF con or any other similar event". Thus, his opinions (as much as he wishes they were and tries to represents them as facts) are totally uninformed and are presented in a generally obnoxious manner that insinuates that since something is obvious to him in his ignorance, it must be true. To present my credentials, I've been staff level on 3 Worldcons, 5 Boskones, head of programming (panels and the like, not computers) for a 1500 person Philcon, staff level on two other Philcons, staff on Loscon, Norwescon, etc. I'm currently serving as advisor to a group planning its first (small) convention. Due to this, I believe that my opinions on the topic of conventions are at least relatively well informed. And to give an example of George's debating style: >I don't recall ever having said a damn thing about how to run an SF >convention. Telling people that they should use more than one >hotel is not telling them how to solve the problems that that will >impose. Just to beat a dead horse into the ground: I DO NOT KNOW >ANYTHING about how to run an SF con or any other similar event. >This does not stop me from knowing that the lame excuse that "no >facility is big enough" is entirely bogus. Let me be the first to offer my consolations on George's unfortunate self-inflicted foot injury.... Amazing that in the same paragraph he can write that he doesn't know anything about the subject that he's refering to, but that he's sure that thing x relating to that subject is bogus. Just amazing. >The attitude that [NESFA] claim[s] to have [about cutting back on >Boskone] is not terribly relevant, because actions speak louder >than words. Sigh. George, NESFA per se has not claimed any attitude. I have stated that in my opinion they do have the "secret society" and "incestuous" attitudes that you have accused them of, based on my personal knowledge of members of NESFA. You have an opinion (a word I strongly suggest that George look up in a good dictionary so that he might possibly gain an understanding of how if differs from fact; a distinction that George seems to have some problems with) based on no knowledge of the people involved, no knowledge of what's involved in running a convention, no knowledge of the debate surrounding passage of the restrictions, etc. To simplify, George has a totally uninformed opinion which he perceives as unalterable fact. I have an informed opinion which I recognize as such. >[Re: motivation for cutting attendance being lack of a large enough >facility] I'd call any concept whatsoever of "facility" irrelevant, >as long as you are using the singular. If the facility is too small >then you adjacent facilitIES. That is obviously NOT the real >reason. Well, I assume that George meant to include the word "use" between "you" and "adjacent". Sigh. I tried to explain why using several facilities was a bad idea. But despite his earlier admission of total ignorance about planning a convention, he's still sure that it's "obviously not the REAL reason" that attendance is being cut. George, do you have these conspiracy theories often? Once again, George doesn't even know if such facities even exist; he's just sure that they have to because he thinks they do because... >But braving the wind and coping with the logistics WILL [make it >so]. It's just a question of whether the organizing committee would >rather do that or resort to the elitist wimp-out. Sigh redux. It's not the committee alone that'd have to cope with moving around a block or so in subzero wind chill factors, it's the attendees. And it's also a question of whether, in the eyes of people who have organized conventions and know what they're talking about, the logistics of such an operation *are* copable. This person, who's done it, think it's not. George, who's proclaimed his ignorance, thinks it is. The rest is left as an exercise to the reader. In response to my sarcastic comment about everyone who'd like to go to a Boskone showing up at the Sheraton next year and doing one (which Shoshanna recognized as being sarcastic, but George took seriously!), George responds >I'm really amazed that NESFA hasn't tried this already. They don't >have to tell the Sheraton that they're NESFA. They can just arrange >to procure (separately) reservations for all of "their" people >(fans, pros, dealers, artists, whatever) at the hotel that weekend. >Starting now. They could screen by how far in advance people were >willing to pay. Whether the Sheraton was willing to "accept" >Boskone would then become an entirely moot point. Thank you George. This was the silliest thing I've read in months. And proves your total ignorance of convention running. And a near total lack of common sense. First off, the Sheraton would sue for false representation. Second, there is considerable setup that needs to be done in the hotel before the con starts. I suspect the hotel just might get a wee bit suspicious, particularly since they'd probably remember many NESFen from this year. Third, in order to get better room rates, they'd have to be a convention of some kind, ditto for getting rooms blocked off for attendees. Fourth, there are *many* things that a hostile hotel can do to make life miserable for you. And if this stunt was tried, assuming that everyone was chucked out in the first place due to false representation, I'm sure the Sheraton personnel would pull every legal trick in the book to make as many problems as possible for the convention. If the hotel is hostile, the convention will be a disaster. Remember what you wrote earlier about not knowing anything about convention running? You're proving it with almost every line you write. >I would say that if Atlanta can [have a con distributed over two >hotels], surely Boston can. But not necessarily in the winter. >That is a legitimate problem. A rare moment in history here folks; George admits that he thinks that something is a "legitimate" problem. Anyway, Atlanta was a special case in that the two hotels were *extremely* close together; much closer than I've seen any two hotels before. Also, that was a Worldcon with committee and staff from all over the world. Boston is much more limited in terms of how many people can be used for committee and staff. >Why is the con committee strained? If there are 4500 people who >want to go, SURELY there must be "enough" who want to plan. I >would think that slots on the con organizing committee would be >among the most highly prized offices in NESFA. If the con >committee is strained I would expect it to be more because of its >unwillingness to share clout & credit than because of lack of >interest from the membership in contributing person-power to the >effort. In addition to Shoshanna's excellent rebuttal points, the number of people who are willing to volunteer is almost always low in comparison to the number of people attending anything (with certain special exceptions, of course). I don't know of anyone who's volunteered for Boskone who's ever been turned down (they might not get what they volunteer for, but that's a separate issue), and NESFA is constantly on the lookout for people who do a good job at gopher level in order to try to get them to move up to staff level the next year. Also, keep in mind that despite spending enormous amounts of time and energy on Boskone, every committee member is a volunteer. Personally they get no renumeration out of their effort. >The smallest tolerable "large room" [for the art show, or >huckster's room, or large panels/events] is available only in a >large hotel? I would humbly suggest looking harder. George, you haven't "humbly" suggested anything in this whole line of debate. In fact, you haven't "suggested"; you've just declared and shown ignorance about things you percieve as being obvious. Do you even have any idea how large the rooms needed are? Why don't you be quiet until you do? >> Well, fine. Let "them" go ahead. Gee, funny how no one who's >> complaining so loudly about the situation is volunteering to do >> that. Any group that tries to do a 4,000 person con will run into >> exactly the same problems that NESFA ran into when they tried to >> schedule next year's Boskone. > >No, if we run it at the same time, it will only be a 2,000 person >con. What do you mean "we"? Are you planning to do it? If not, then quit talking like you are, and insulting those who are willing to do the work. Also, if a con for similar interests were held on the same weekend in the same metro area as Boskone, it'd have major problems getting professional guests (I'd suspect that most would go to Boskone, due to the number of publishers and editors present), art for the art show (Boskone has an excellent rep among artists for the quality of its art show and the amount of purchases), etc. It wouldn't happen that the con would just split in half. >> [George]'s made some assumptions that he takes to be facts, >> without having any experience to back them up with. > >The only assumptions that I made were that there existed both 1) a >cluster of appropriately-sized hotels, and 2) a group of people >willing and able to plan a convention around them in the Boston >area. I don't NEED any experience to know that both of those >assumptions are true. On the other hand, experience with the wind >chill factor might convince me that it wasn't, for the fans, worth >the trouble. If the organizing committee claims it's not worth >THEIR trouble then it is the wrong committee. Apparently George also doesn't need reality to "know" that his assumptions are "true". C'mon George, give us the names of these hotels in Boston that you, you inexperienced con organizer you, are positive can and will handle a 4,500 person Boskone. If you can't name them, then your first assumption is not true; you just think it should be. You're also 100% sure that a group of people exist in Boston who can organize a convention based on your totally without experienced criteria. How about naming them as well? And NESFA doesn't count, since you say that if the current committee doesn't agree with you, it's the wrong committee. So who are your replacements? And if *any* group of people doing all the work for something decide that the something is not worth their (volunteered, with no contract signed) trouble, then it isn't, and *your* (or anyone who isn't doing the work) desire that they put in the work because *you* want them to is totally irrelevant. George is making a (fairly feeble) attempt to talk the talk, but he can't even do that well, much less walk the walk. He also has a serious problem in that because he *thinks* something should be true, then it has to be true. tyg ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 1987 19:13:45 EST (Mon) From: Dan Hoey Subject: Fantasy and Science Fiction Conventions Cc: george%scirtp.uucp@seismo.css.gov From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!george (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.) >...I'm really amazed that NESFA hasn't tried this already. They >don't have to tell the Sheraton that they're NESFA. They can just >arrange to procure (separately) reservations for all of "their" >people (fans, pros, dealers, artists, whatever) at the hotel that >weekend. While it is amusing to watch this clown expound on a subject he knows nothing about, I feel a warning is in order. So kiddies, don't try swallowing any of this stuff at home, it can interfere with your perception of reality. And if you can find 2000 friends who want to check into a hotel with you, be sure to let the hotel know, so they don't arrest you for inciting to riot. Apologies to all of you who have been to a con and know this already. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 00:29:54 GMT From: 6080626@pucc.princeton.edu (Adam Barr) Subject: Boskone, yet once again About Boskone, I can't see why they don't make it first-come first-served. It would be easier to manage, rather than trying to figure out whether this guy had gone to 3 of the last 5, or maybe only 2 of the last 5 but 3 of the last 6 and he was pre-registered, and so on. The people who are really into Boskone would hear about it early and register in no time. And if they forget, well, that's life. How many people are going to register for Boskone real early just so they can go and trash the place? Boy, sounds like real fun. Also, I was wondering if anyone had actually figured out how many people were going to be automatically invited. If you sum up all the 3 of 5 people and the art people and the gophers and the recognized club members and all that, how many spaces are left? Does it add up to 500, or 1000, or 3000? Adam Barr 6080626@PUCC ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Apr 87 0838-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #172 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Apr 87 0838-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #172 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 23 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 172 Today's Topics: Books - Alexander & Brunner & Eddings & Friedman & Kennealy (2 msgs) & LeGuin (2 msgs) & Tiptree & Van Vogt & The King in Yellow (2 msgs) & Ace Specials ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 21 Apr 87 18:08:06-CDT From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: RE: Lloyd Alexander Don't miss -Time Cat- It was one of my most favorite books when I was a kid, and I re-read it just recently and it is still good. It's about this kid who has a magical cat who can travel in time, and can take the kid with him. Bill ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 23:30:48 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!msb@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: John Brunner > TITLE RATING(1-10) >Stand On Zanzibar 8 or 9 >Shockwave Rider 9 >The Sheep Look Up 9 1/2 I'll agree with two out of three; TSLU was too dark for my taste. I have seen it labeled a sequel to SOZ, but it is an independent work. Of the ones listed in Dan Tilque's article, I'd particularly recommend "The Jagged Orbit" and the alternate-history/time-travel novel "The Long Result". Brunner's work varies in style quite a lot -- he likes experimenting. For instance, returning to "Stand on Zanzibar", I read about 1/3 of it on the first try and nearly gave it up -- before I realized that it did have a plot. But when I finished it I considered it excellent -- the social environment it describes is still, in my opinion, the best extrapolation made to date of what our part of the world will really be like in the future. And the book was written something like 15 years ago now! But there are two books of his that I particularly recommend, BESIDES all of those listed above, both of which are told in a straightforward style. The first is "Telepathist", generally known in the US under the title "The Whole Man". This is the story of the life of the most powerful telepath -- or telepathist, to use the language of the book -- in the world. Partly because of effects that are linked to the telepathy gene, it is even farther from a normal life than one might expect... The other is "The Stone that Never Came Down". This novel provides an answer to the question: "What technological development would hold the greatest promise for solving the problems of the world, and what would happen if someone produced and tried to implement it?" And I bet the answer isn't one you'll think of just from reading this message... Some other Brunner novels are: Quicksand The Crucible of Time Total Eclipse The Dramaturges of Yan The Infinitive of Go These are roughly in order of how much I liked them -- worst to best. Mark Brader Toronto utzoo!sq!msb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 21:15:21 EDT From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: On Eddings... I tend to agree with several of the criticisms of Eddings, while praising his talent and enjoying the books a great deal. Let's face it: he *DOES* telegraph a great many of the plot elements a whopping long time in advance. It was perfectly obvious well before it happened that Durnik would die and be revived by Garion. It was perfectly obvious well before it happened that Garion would marry Ce'Nedra. And so on and so on. Secondly, Eddings makes several New Writer type of mistakes. Take the new book. (*SPOILER TIME*) For instance, Garion nearly had his head ripped off by Belgarath for mucking around with the weather patterns to a presumably fatal degree. I have no degree in meteorology, but I daresay that calling lightning and rain from an already heavily overcast sky isn't stretching things too far. Another one. How old is Errand at the end of the Belgariad? Seven? Six, at a rock bottom minimum? Given the fact that ten or eleven years pass in the span of Guardians of the West, shouldn't he be a young man by now? The text seems to continue to treat him as a boy. I don't intend to put Eddings down. I loved the Belgariad; the characters were very appealing, and his dialogue is beautiful. I jusdt don't think we should expect Guardians of the West to win a Nebula quite yet. Robert G. Traynor UMass-Boston ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 13:39:28 GMT From: seismo!gatech!mcdchg!chinet!megabyte@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark E. From: Sunderlin) Subject: Re: Telepathy a curse, not a blessing mcohen@nrtc.arpa writes: >When they finally met, they were initially overjoyed, but when they >began telepathically (and involuntarily) exchanging their most >personal and embarrassing thoughts and memories, they became >disgusted with each other. The new book _In Conquest Born_ by C.S. Friedman deals with the blessings and curses of telepathy... among so many other things. I finall got a copy of this and read it. Buy it! It is without a doubt one of, if not the best "Hard" SF book published here. No swords and sorcery here, just intellegent, well written SF. Mark E. Sunderlin UUCP: seismo!why_not!scsnet!sunder ihnp4!chinet!megabyte (202) 634-2529 Mail: IRS PM:PFR:D:NO 1111 Constitution Ave. Washington,DC 20224 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 01:56:54 GMT From: ABC%PSUVMB.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: The Copper Crown I've read that for every complicated question there's an answer that is short, simple, and wrong. The numerous problems in _The_Copper_Crown_ seem to have an answer which is short, simple, and right: Kennealy was writing not as a scientist or sociologist, but as a medievalist nut (all S. C. A. members, myself included, are medievalist nuts) with a "neat idea." "Celts in Space!" Does that refer to Kirk, McCoy, and Scotty, or is that something like "Pigs in Space";-)??! Actually, the Kelts sometimes reminded me of the Helders in _Lord_of_the_Swastika_( AKA _The_Iron_Dream_). I guess that's what comes of doing too much persona research. I hope Kennealy drops space-opera-fantasy in favor of straight fantasy, preferably in a style borrowed from folktale and legend. That seems to be a more appropriate style and genre for her talents. Alex Clark ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 14:24:36 GMT From: haste#@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: The Copper Crown OK, "The Copper Crown" is an inconsistent pastiche of science fiction, fantasy and wishing. The author effectively writes a fantasy in which 'spaceship' is used instead of 'ship', 'space' instead of 'ocean', 'planet' instead of 'country' (or maybe 'island'), 'laser' instead of 'sword', etc, and makes few, if any, concessions to science in that translation. But complaining about it is like trying to batter down an open door. One reason we like to classify books as science fiction, fantasy, space opera -- for our own benefit -- is so we'll know the ground rules. "The Copper Crown" is a romance. (Not romance as in Harlequin, but as in a grand tale). Science-romance, if you will. It employs the props of science fiction, but isn't subject to the same rules of internal and external consistency. The book can and should be enjoyed on its own terms. (Another author who writes/wrote what I'm calling romances is Cristabel. In "The Cruachan and the Killane", she's fuzzy about whether interplanetary travel requires spaceships, airplanes or submarines, but it's a fun book to read, nonetheless. Cristabel actually pulls off something Kennealy doesn't, in that, without weakening her stories, she avoids the notion that cutting people up with swords is somehow more romantic than shooting them -- so she doesn't have to rationalize the use of swords in the space age.) I'll also advance a more positive defense of "The Copper Crown". An important aspect of the book is the meeting of her heroic milieu and ~modern Earth. Most 'traditional' plot devices that allow this (time travel, alternate worlds, lost civilizations, Terran explorers on another planet) implicitly picture the heroic society as a relatively primitive one. At best we have the early Darkovan model: "We're not primitive, we're just tired". It makes a big difference to the feel of the book that Keltia is vigorously competing with traditionally technological societies on an equal footing. If the price of this is the misuse of space-opera cliches, it's not too high a price to pay. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 03:54:58 GMT From: ames!amdahl!drivax!alexande@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Alexander) Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin and WAKE UP! Samuel R. Delany wrote a 75-page critique of The Dispossessed that shouldn't be missed. It was called "To Read The Dispossessed", and was published in his collection of essays, The Jewel-Hinged Jaw (Berkley 1977). Delany tears LeGuin's book apart lovingly, appreciatively, and ruthlessly -- one sentence at a time, in some places. He makes you appreciate the fine qualities in the book, but also shows how it fails in many areas. I still like The Dispossessed, even after reading Delany's essay. Mark Alexander ...{hplabs,seismo,sun,ihnp4}amdahl!drivax!alexande ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 20:46:02 GMT From: schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz) Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin and WAKE UP! retief@bradley.UUCP writes: > No, I don't remember anymore names. What other books has LeGuin > written in the Earth-Hain-etc framework? bradley mentions: Disposessed Rocannan's World Semley's Necklace What about: The Left Hand of Darkness Scott Schwartz Swarthmore College Computer Science Program UUCP: ...{{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,sun!liberty}!swatsun!schwartz AT&T: (215)-328-8610 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 21:02:43 EDT From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (RG Traynor, UMass-Boston) Subject: Tiptree's dead? Has Alice Sheldon actually died, and if so, when? I don't remember seeing this in SF Chronicle or any of the other zines that deal in such things.... Lisa Evans Malden, Massachusetts ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 16:26:46 EST From: Dennis Rears Subject: Looking for A.E Vogt Books A couple (10) of years ago I read two books by A.E Van Vogt, with titles I believe to be "THE WORLD OF NULL A", and "THE PLAYERS OF NULL A". Recently a third book came out in this series and I have been trying to obtain the first two books again. Does anyone know if they are still in print (either paperback or hardcover)? Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Apr 87 15:00:54 EDT From: brothers@paul.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) Subject: King in Yellow I thought the King in Yellow was very good, not being such a fan of the gore and gug style of horror fiction. But even you prefer Lovecraft & co., remember that Chambers' work is the seminal work. You'll find subtle and blatant references to the King in Yellow in all types of fiction, even in Raymond Chandler, whose story, The King in Yellow, I just read last night, in a monumental coincidence whose proportion grows even now as I think about it. Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 22 APR 1987 08:39:33 EDT From: "Jeffrey A. Brooks" Subject: Bradley, Lovecraft and Chambers Several people have mentioned the names (Hastur, Hali, etc.) common to the writings of Robert W. Chambers, H. P. Lovecraft and Marion Zimmer Bradley -- and since no one else as responded... MZB wrote an article several years ago entitled "The (bastard) Children of Hastur -- An Irreverent Inquiry into the Ancestry and Progeny of the Hasturs"; I found it in Darrell Schweitzer's "Essays Lovecraftian" (T-K Graphics (!), 1976). MZB states that she got the name Hastur from Chambers' The King in Yellow, which she read at the age of twelve or so. Chambers, in turn, took it from Ambrose Bierce's short story "An Inhabitant of Carcosa". Chambers borrowed Hastur, Carcosa and the Lake of Hali and added several names of his own. MZB has sketched the histories of many of these names in "...and strange sounding names" (AMRA, reprinted in The Conan Swordbook, Mirage Press, 1969). Bradley states that she had seen not a single word of H. P. Lovecraft before using the names in a Chambers pastiche of her own. After reading some Lovecraft, she decided that the brief references to Hastur that she found were insufficient to discourage her from using the names in the early Darkover novel, The Sword of Aldones. In her essay, after a brief but virulent attack on Lovecraft's style, she remarks, "I'd certainly rather meet MY Hasturs in a dark alley than be confronted with HPL's." By the way, I heartily recommend Dover's collection entitled The King in Yellow, which contains most of Chambers' horror and fantasy work. It's well worth the price for the title story alone. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 00:16:48 GMT From: umix!umich!msudoc!krj@RUTGERS.EDU (Ken Josenhans {msucl From: Systems}) Subject: List of Original Ace SF Specials One night at the Atlanta Worldcon, I was chatting with Terry Carr, and I asked him if he had a complete list of the original Ace Science Fiction Specials, which I'd been trying to collect. Terry said he didn't, and just at that moment a fan passing us on the Marriott balcony said that he DID have a list. The passing fan and I exchanged addresses, and after the con he sent me two xeroxed pages from some unknown fanzine. They contain the book list reproduced here. If anyone wants to see the rest of the information (book numbers, short story collection contents, commentary), send an SASE to my mail address, given below. (Corrections and additions are also welcome, via paper or E-mail.) The Original Ace Science Fiction Specials 1967 Why Call Them Back From Heaven, Clifford D. Simak 1968 The Witches of Karres, James H. Schmitz Past Master, R.A. Lafferty The Revolving Boy, Gertrude Friedberg The Lincoln Hunters, Wilson Tucker Rite of Passage, Alexei Panshin Picnic on Paradise, Joanna Russ The Two Timers, Bob Shaw Synthajoy, D.G. Compton The Ring, Piers Anthony and Robert E. Margoff A Torrent of Faces, James Blish and Norman L. Knight The Demon Breed, James H. Schmitz 1969 Isle of the Dead, Roger Zelazny The Jagged Orbit, John Brunner The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula K. LeGuin The Preserving Machine, Philip K. Dick The Island Under the Earth, Avram Davidson Mechasm, John T. Sladek The Silent Multitude, D.G. Compton The Palace of Eternity, Bob Shaw Pavane, Keith Roberts The Black Corridor, Michael Moorcock Fourth Mansions, R.A. Lafferty The Steel Crocodile, D.G. Compton 1970 And Chaos Died, Joanna Russ The Phoenix and the Mirror, Avram Davidson After Things Fell Apart, Ron Goulart The Year of the Quiet Sun, Wilson Tucker Nine Hundred Grandmothers, R.A. Lafferty A Wizard of Earthsea, Ursula K. LeGuin Chronocules, D.G. Compton One Million Tomorrows, Bob Shaw 1971 The Eclipse of Dawn, Gordon Eklund Furthest, Suzette Haden Elgin The Traveller in Black, John Brunner Humanity Prime, Bruce McAllister (Cover by Davis Meltzer) The Midnight Dancer, Gerald Conway (Cover by Davis Meltzer) Warlord of the Air, Michael Moorcock (Cover by Davis Meltzer) Books purchased by Terry Carr for the series but published after Carr left Ace, not as specials: The Falling Astronauts, Barry Malzberg The Worlds of Theodore Sturgeon, Theodore Sturgeon A Trace of Dreams, Gordon Eklund Barefoot in the Head, Brian W. Aldiss The Missionaries, D.G. Compton (uncertain) Other Days, Other Eyes, Bob Shaw (uncertain) Ken Josenhans P.O. Box 6610 East Lansing, MI 48826 UUCP: ...ihnp4!msudoc!krj BITNET: 13020KRJ@MSU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Apr 87 0902-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #173 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Apr 87 0902-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #173 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 23 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 173 Today's Topics: Films - Good Sf Movies (15 msgs) & Neuromancer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 09:56 EST From: (Kaile Goodman) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies >megabyte@chinet.UUCP writes: >>But, what are the well done intellegent SF movies? >I would like to nominate Ursula Le Guin's The Lathe of Heaven. I >saw it on TV, don't know if it was a movie or a "made for TV >movie", but I had read the book some years before, and the book was >one of the truly scary things I've ever read (beats Steven King >drek all hollow (aaagh! duck! who left the gas on? flame-broiled, >coming up!)). The movie was very respectful of the book's plot, >had great visual effects (conveyed the depopulation of the earth by >a family gathered around a table, with most of them covered with >cobwebs, for example), pretty good music, and was every bit as >scary as the book, even knowing exactly how it was going to come >out. I remember this movie well. It was the first movie made by PBS. I was in high school and had never read the book, but I was entranced by the movie. I ran out to the local library the next day and had them get it on loan from another library so that I could read it. Kaile Goodman KGoodman@smith.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 07:57:38 PDT From: Dave Combs Subject: re: Good SF Movies My thanks to the net for the general comments on "The Quiet Earth". I'd never heard of the movie, but found it easily enough at the local video rental place. I thought it was GREAT! It's one of the few movies I've seen where I was so caught up in the plot that at the end I was convinced the movie was too short (it isn't - at 91 minutes it's close to average). There aren't a whole lot of movies that can spend about the first 5 minutes being totally engrossing with no spoken dialogue at all. All in all, a great way to spend a Sunday afternoon. Cheers, Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 11:05 EDT From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Good SF Movies One movie that I have not seen mentioned is "Fantastic Voyage". The cinematography was excellent, and I believe the movie won an academy award for special effects. It features Donald Pleasence, as well as Raquel Welch in a wet-suit (drool). ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 00:58:39 GMT From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP writes: > Best movie of the century: BRAZIL. Not to be missed. I agree, this is a movie which I found to be a cut above most SF movies that have been shown. It's of a different atmosphere/flavor too. A must go see sort of movie, indeed! Eiji Hirai USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081 phone: (215)328-8449 (this phone is till May '87) UUCP: {seismo,ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai ARPA: bpa!swatsun!hirai@seismo.css.gov ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 10:04:07 PDT From: cel@CitHex.Caltech.Edu (Chuck Lane) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF movies How about DARK STAR? After all, how many movies have you seen that have a line in the credits: "Filmed on location in space" :-) Chuck Lane cel@cithex.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1987 12:13 PST From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: GOOD sf No one has mentioned THE TERMINATOR. I thougt it was one of the best SF movies of this decade... Also I would include ST II, and only ST II in my list (not I, not III, and not IV). As far as animated SF goes, how about FANTASTIC PLANET? That one was european. With very few exceptions, Americans seem to have a pathalogical inability to make any really good animation that's longer than 9 minutes. At least in this decade. Has anyone seen THE ADVENTURES OF MARK TWAIN by Will Vinton and his gang? My list would also include... Forbidden Planet Sleeper Alien (just the first one) 2001 (just the first one) Brazil Andromeda Strain Richard S. Smith BITNET: CADS079@CALSTATE ARPA: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1987 15:20 PST From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies dykimber@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) writes >Silent Running, with Bruce Dern: a classic among classics, it >predates 2001 and it's just...well, a must see. Seconded - A nice mixture of hard science, humor and humanity. maslak@sri-unix.arpa (Valerie Maslak) mentions: > THX whatever it was > Fahrenheit 451 >Classical dystopias both How about a really silly SF film: "Darkstar" - made as a student project (USC) by some-one who is now famous. Highlights (Non-spoiler): An alien that tickling a character as he is suspended in a lift shaft. Bombs that argue about wanting to explode. A Cryogenic Captain. but who made it?? There is/was an short atmospheric black-and-white film which was set in Paris, about a man who was so obsessed with one childhood event that he could be forced to travel in time... It is also a post-'holocaust' story. Two questions - 1. What was the title? 2. Was it based on a story? Dick Botting Dept Comp Sci. Cal State U, San Bernardino, CA 92407 PAAAAAR@CCS.CSUSCC.EDU paaaaar@calstate.bitnet voice:714-887-7368 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 23:10:06 GMT From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Day of the Triffids (was Re: *GOOD* SF Movies) cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) writes: >alainew@tekcae.TEK.COM (Alaine Warfield) writes: > > [a lot of discussion over DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS] > [a lot of disagreement over DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS] Whoa, folks! There are *two* DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS movies: a 1963 version with Howard Keel, available cheap on videocassette and not very good, and a 1981 BBC television version (~4 hours) which *is* very good and true to the book. The BBC version shows up on the Arts & Entertainment channel once and a while. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 87 17:17:41 GMT From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies megabyte@chinet.UUCP (Mark E. Sunderlin) writes: > But, what are the well done intellegent SF movies? As a start, I > consider _The Quiet Earth_ an Australian SF movie from last year > to be quality SF movie. It is quality, but I am not sure the concept behind it is all that good. There is a necessary part of the "effect" shown in the film that for me places the film more in the realm of the supernatural. I am not sure it is a whole lot more intelligently done than something like THE WORLD, THE FLESH, AND THE DEVIL, a similar post-holocaust film. (Though the latter film goes downhill near the end.) There are still a lot of problems with the concept, in my mind, though it would be spoiler to discuss them here. > What other SF movies are there? By now many people on the net know this, but I think FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (a.k.a. QUATERMASS AND THE PIT) comes pretty close to being my idea of the perfect science fiction film. That is the third film in a series of four. The fourth -- THE QUATERMASS CONCLUSION -- is available now in this country on videotape is pretty well thought out also. PHASE IV is a darn good film about how two alien species would war with each other, and more importantly how they would collect intelligence about each other. In this case it is humans against intelligent ants. I have heard very good things about SOLARIS but have never had the opportunity to see it. I would place Peter Watkins's THE WAR GAME in the science fiction film category since its depictions of nuclear war carry it beyond the realm of the documentary film. It is about 50 minutes long and it remains the scariest film I have ever seen. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 19:23:55 GMT From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte) Subject: Re: Day of the Triffids (was Re: *GOOD* SF Movies) JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) writes: >2) "It describes a world in which man's space defenses have > backfired and cause almost everyone in the world to go blind." > I don't recall anything having to do with space defenses in > either movie or book. It was a meteor shower in both that > caused the blindness. The time period of the book may be a > little in advance of "today", but the movie is certainly the > "today" of the mid '60s, so no space defense exist. I haven't seen the film, but I did read the book about five years ago (I think). I believe that in the book, the main character speculates that the official story of a meteor shower is some sort of cover-up for a failure of some space-based doomsday machine. ("Pure antiproton -- absolutely pure!" -- oops, wrong context :-). No space defenses existed in the '60s, but at the time all people could *really* be sure of was that no *unclassified* space defenses existed. Where did all the classified defense spending of the superpowers go? An enemy could probably detect the launch of such a defense system, but even if it did detect such a launch it would not make that knowledge public for fear of embarrassment -- "arms gap" and all that crap. >3) "it has so much insight in the problems facing us today." If > so, it's completely coincidental. The problems in book and > movie aren't related to our present-day problems (of course, > since I don't live in Oregon, where the posting originated, I > may not have the same familiarity with giant ambulatory > carnivorous plants as the average Oregonian :-)). It seems to be very relevant. ...ESPECIALLY during these past few years of Ronald Ray-gun and his 10^n (where n is large) lines of weapons-system control programmes, all with accompanying correctness proofs which one would hope would contain absolutely no errors. ...if memory serves me correctly, Oregon contains a major weapons production facility or waste dump. (I am admittedly a bit fuzzy on this.) Matthew Belmonte Internet: BITNET: UUCP: ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 12:20:38 GMT From: seismo!enea!sicsten!lhe@RUTGERS.EDU (Lars-Henrik Eriksson) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies A "top five" list should include "Solaris" by the late russian director Andrej Tarkovskij (based on the novel by Stanislav Lem). It is very different in character to most (U.S. :-) SF movies, but in my opinion, it is almost as good as "2001". (..and these two are the best SF movies I have seen.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 22:37:06 GMT From: Jeff Dalton Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies One of the best, of course, is Liquid Sky. Duty is more important than shrimps. Night of the Comet could have been good if it had taken itself a bit less (or more?) seriously. And don't forget Buckaroo Banzai! ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 14:55:42 GMT From: fla7@sphinx.uchicago.edu (william flachsbart) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >How about a really silly SF film: >"Darkstar" - made as a student project (USC) by some-one who is now > famous. Highlights (Non-spoiler): > An alien that tickling a character as he is suspended in a lift > shaft. > Bombs that argue about wanting to explode. > A Cryogenic Captain. but who made it?? John Carpenter? >There is/was an short atmospheric black-and-white film which was >set in Paris, about a man who was so obsessed with one childhood >event that he could be forced to travel in time... It is also a >post-'holocaust' story. Two questions - > 1. What was the title? This was called "The Jetty" or "The Runway" or some such, was it not? > 2. Was it based on a story? I think so, but don't remember which story It was a pretty strange movie on the whole. My favorite s-f movies: Heavy Metal Wizards (bias for animation shows :-) The Last Starfighter (what do we do now? we die...) Back to the Future Videodrome (weird but great) Brazil Time Bandits Looker Spacehunter, Adventures in the Forbidden Zone (in 3-d) B-) 2001 Star Wars Close Encounters of the Third Kind (If only for the scene in which Dreyfus builds a Devil's Tower in his living room out of mud.) Dark Star Barbarella Galaxina (The Blue Star... aaaaaa-aaaaaaaah!) The Terminator Mad Max Real Genius (it's fictional science at least. The infamous line: What's that? Liquid Nitrogen.) the list could go on.... but I'll mercifully stop. I have been informed by many that my taste in movies can be described as the following: Oh yeah, Bill. If it moves, he thinks it's great. As long as it's in 80 mm. Will Flachsbart ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!fla7 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 19:58:20 GMT From: seismo!sdcsvax!celerity!jjw@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim ) Subject: Re: Good SF Movies I recommend "The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction Movies" edited by Phil Hardy, published by Woodbury Press (ISBN 0 8300 0436 X) 1986. This substantial book has short reviews of over 1200 science fiction films dating from 1895 through 1985. It also contains discussions of general tendencies and philosophies of films for each decade covered. I picked up my copy from one of the discount tables at B. Dalton. Appendix 2 contains lists of "Top Ten" films by the contributors to the book as well as Science Fiction authors (Brian Aldiss, Arthur C. Clarke, Harry Harrison) and others. Some of my favorite films: Forbidden Planet Destination Moon Dark Star Them Alien This Island Earth Phantom from Space ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 02:31:08 GMT From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes: >How about a really silly SF film: >"Darkstar" - made as a student project (USC) by some-one who is now > famous. >but who made it?? Why, John Carpenter, of course. Fun movie! The chase of the alien through the ship and the dialogue with the bomb on phenomenology are hilarious, easily the best things in the movie. There's another significant name in SF films that started his career with DARK STAR, too: Dan O'Bannon, who co-wrote it with Carpenter. Dan also played one of the crew members, Pinback I think it was. Later he went on to create a somewhat better-known SF film, ALIEN (with a little help from Ron Shusett, H. R. Giger, and Ridley Scott, of course :-). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 13:34 EDT From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Keith Anderson) Subject: Neuromancer movie Is there any more information concerning the _Neuromancer_ movie? I've seen something on MTV that consists of a yellow grid on the screen with Apple ][ disk-drive sounds overlayed, followd by a picture of some dragon-oid creature, and the word "Neuromancer". If there is anybody that knows anything about a release date or even a date for the start of filming I would greatly appreciate it. Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Apr 87 0919-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #174 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Apr 87 0919-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #174 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 23 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 174 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker & Farmer (3 msgs) & Hambly & Heinlein (3 msgs) & Kurtz & Silverberg (3 msgs) & Humor in SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: TUE APR 21, 1987 10.02.01 EDT From: "Mitchel Ludwig" Subject: Chalker If anyone out there considers themselves well-read as far as fantasy is concerned, I would appreciate the answer to this question. In Jack Chalkers Dancing Gods series, the witch Huspeth tells Marge of the many lands of the world... "There are many lands larger than the one from which thou comest. There are many other continents and many other lands. One, called simply The Land, is so fouled up that no one from thy world will believe it's real, even though he be there. Another once put down a dark force under a great wizard, and now that wizard's son, Alateen, refights his father's battles. From Lan Kemar to Lemoria, all the lands that make up our world are continually threatened." 1) The first continent, The Land, is most definitely from Donaldson's Covenant series. 2) The second, Alateen is the youth organization of Alcoholics Anonomous, making that the Shanara series and Alanon. 3) I know of Lankemarr, but from what series is it? 4) What and where is Lemoria??? Any help from the peanut gallery??? Mitch ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 22:26:25 GMT From: caron@topaz.rutgers.edu (Raymond C. Caron) Subject: Phillip Jose Farmer Okay, I've just completed reading the first book in the _World_Of_ The_Tiers_ series, _The_Maker_of_Universes_ and to my surprise it was quite good. Could someone tell me more about the series, like the rest of the books and maybe some SHORT reviews of them? Any help would be apprceiated. On the Riverworld debate, just to throw my 2 cents in, it was a good idea that like all to many writers he drew it to far out. Maybe a good ending point would be _The_Fabulous_Riverboat_ Ray Caron caron@rutgers.edu {harvard|pyrnj|seismo|ihnp4}topaz!caron Rutgers University RPO 5973 CN 5063 New Bruinswick NJ 08903 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 20:24:24 GMT From: seismo!yale!sshefter@RUTGERS.EDU (Bret A. Shefter) Subject: Re: Philip Jose' Farmer jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini) writes: >Hello out there in net-land. I just finished reading Phillip Jose' >Farmer's "Riverworld series". (To Your Scattered Bodies Go, et al) >and I was confused on a few points. I was hoping that someone more >literate than I could answer them. > >1) Why were the people resurrected in the first place? I understood >about the failing computer endangering the collective wathan's and >that the "experiment" was to run for 120 years only. I was left >somewhat in the dark as to the real purpose of the resurrections. I'm going to pretend I didn't read the fifth book, and respond based on the original series only. The people were resurrected to give them a chance to "pass on" - to have their wathans not come back when they died. This was believed to occur when a certain level of "ethical"-ness was reached. >2) I do have some other critisisims (sic) which I would like to >bounce off the net and get other opinions on. > > A) I felt that Farmer did not adequately explore parent/child > relationships. If I were resurrected I think I would try to find > my Mother and Father . I should imagine most people would. I would imagine that most people *did* go find their mother and father. Certainly you did :-). However, consider that your mother and father would be about thirty, and in turn looking for *their* mothers and fathers (and perhaps each other as well). In turn, their parents were looking for *their* parents, etc. You might just as well decide to look for Noah. Not everyone can find who they're looking for - Riverworld's a big place. And our heroes probably realized this. I would hazard a guess that people like Burton and Cyrano aren't too concerned with finding their roots anyway, and that Joe Miller wouldn't care much either. Frigate seemed to be pretty independent. Clemens was busy looking for his wife. Etc. etc. etc. Most importantly, our heroes decided that they could either spend their "lives" looking for relatives who might not be thrilled to see them, or might never be found - or they could find some kind of purpose to their existence and go after the Tower. Besides, looking for your parents makes pretty dull reading :) > B) I realize that Farmer had to draw the line somewhere but I > would used some "bigger" characters in the book. Einstein, > George Washington, Ceasar, JFK, Robert E. Lee, Charlemange, > Brian Boru, Ghandi, etc. What I mean is include some bigger than > life characters. Not everyone would consider George Washington a "big" figure...but I see your point. I think what Farmer wanted to do was pick characters that people might be familiar with, but not so much that everything the person did would have to follow a very set pattern. Thus Alice in Wonderland, Mark Twain, and King John - but not a popular leader who would have strong preconceptions to overcome. > C) Lastly, I can see why he would want to avoid putting Christ > in the book, except for quacks claiming to be Him. But I would > have included someone like John the Baptist. or at least a pope > or apostle. Can't include Christ, because that opens up the issue of whether he "died" like everyone else. Can't really have John the Baptist or an apostle for the same sort of reason...he'll be looking for Christ the whole time. BTW, he overcomes his aversion to dealing with the subject in the fifth book, *Gods of Riverworld*, as well as *Riverworld and Other Stories*, if I recall correctly. >Like I said, I welcome the opinions of others on this marvelous >series. Hope I've helped. I must state in all fairness that I didn't particularly like the series. The idea is marvelous, though. shefter-bret@yale.ARPA shefter@yalecs.BITNET ...!ihnp4!hsi!yale!shefter ...!{seismo,decvax}!yale!shefter ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 21:02:53 GMT From: mtune!hou2g!scott@RUTGERS.EDU (Scott Berry) Subject: Re: Philip Jose' Farmer mcm2434@ritcv.UUCP (Martin Maenza) writes: > The title of the fifth book of the Riverworld series is GODS OF > RIVERWORLD. > > Just a personal note, I read this series a couple summers back and > I felt it was a very well done work of fiction. I recommend it to > anyone who is looking for a good series to sink their teeth into. How difficult is it to understand GODS OF RIVERWORLD if it's been years since you read the rest of the series? I enjoyed the other books, but it's been quite some time since I read them last, and have forgotten ALL details of the revelations in the "final" book. Is there a "summary" in the beginning of GODS... ? Scott J. Berry ihnp4!hou2g!scott ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 19:23:45 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Barbara Hambly's work. mooks@bucc2.UUCP writes: >Does anyone know anything on the status of _The_Silicon_Mage_ which >is the sequel to this book. Won't be out for a bit; her next book will be the sequel to THE LADIES OF MANDRIGYN. >I have read the first book and highly recommend it. The book deals >with a computer operator working for an extremely high-tech company >who gets dragged into another world through a hole in space time. >The other world is, of course, very magic oriented; while the >protagonist's world is present day earth. If you have read >Hambly's Darwath Trilogy, you will recognize the basic premise. I agree that I would recommend THE SILENT TOWER, but a) not as much as her other books, and b) it has a quite different premise from the Darwath trilogy. There is a similarity in setup, which is what Scott is commenting on, but the basic motivating idea behind SILENT TOWER is very different. In ST, she is exploring the question of what happens to an incipient industrial revolution in a world where magic works? The Darwath trilogy is not concerned with questions like that. Both series have people from our world finding themselves caught up in conflicts in magical worlds, but that's all the similarity. I would highly recommend the Darwath trilogy and THE LADIES OF MANDRIGYN; the four books are ties for first place among her works, for me. THE SILENT TOWER is not as good as the others, but still ok. DRAGONSBANE is very enjoyable. Hey, I even enjoyed her Star Trek novel ISHMAEL :-) Hambly writes fantasy that involves real people in real situations, no whitewashing or cutesyness. (Can you tell I don't generally like fantasy?) I recommend her works highly. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 10:19 EDT From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: sources... When I found a Heinlein novel that I had never heard of before in my favorite used-book store, I naturally snagged it. It's called "The Rolling Stones", and it's not about Mick Jagger. It is copyright 1952, and was originally published (in condensed form) in Boy's Life magazine under the title "Tramp Space Ship". This is the blurb from the inside front cover: "Thirty-eight days out, Fuzzy Britches, the family flatcat, had eight golden little kittens. Each was exactly like its parent, but only a couple of inches across when flat and marble-sized when contracted. Everyone, including Captain Stone, thought they were cute. Everyone enjoyed petting them, stroking them with a gentle forefinger and listening to the tiny purr. Everyone enjoyed feeding them and they seemed to be hungry all the time. Sixty-four days later the kittens had kittens - and the population bomb had been ignited. In a spaceship of limited capacities, with no port in sight, the Stones were in for trouble..." Sounds familiar, hmmmmmm? ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 17:31:49 GMT From: ames!amdahl!krs@RUTGERS.EDU (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: sources... Yep. In fact, I read in "Making of (Star Trek? Trouble with Tribbles?)" that, after he'd written "The Trouble with Tribbles", submitted it, and had it accepted for the series, David Gerrold all of a sudden recognized the correlation and penned a note to Heinlein, who said it was no problem. I'm sure the true ST-Trivia Experts out there can (and will) gloss this with quoted text and better detail, but that's the gist. Kristopher Stephens (408-746-6047) amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 04:45:59 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: sources... Just curious, but have the older Heinlein novels been forgotten? _The Rolling Stones_ _Rocket Ship Galileo_ _The Star Beast_ _Citizen of the Galaxy_ _Revolt in 2100_ _The Puppet Masters_ _Methusalah's Children_ _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ (THIS one isn't fogotten- there've been posts!) _The Door Into Summer_ _Tunnel to the Stars_ _The Menace from Earth_ _Starship Troopers_ _(one I canNOT for the life of me, remember, but it's concerning genetics and selective breeding for certain traits...) and all his short stories: _The Roads Must Roll_ _Blowups Happen_ _The Green Hills of Earth_ etc., etc. I don't want to start flame wars about the merits of Heinlein- that may be an annual event, but please- not YET! I'm just curious to know if the older novels are being left out in the shuffle with his newer ones... Eric ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 23:20:58 GMT From: O98%PSUVM.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU (Sean Owens) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz books Someone requested information as to other Deryni books. I seem to remember reading something on the subject here, but cna't quite pin it down. I have two other books than the ones listed in the request, that contain Deryni stories. The first is The Deryni Archives, a collection of short stories and other stuff either directly or indirectly related to the Deryni series, including the first draft of the first chapter of the first book. The other is an anthology , (either Swords & Sorcery, or Flashing Swords, not sure which, #4, edited by Lynn Campbell, I think) which contains a short story about young morgan helping Brion Haldane to acquire magical powers. The aforementioned posting about other Deryni books, mentioned something about a book that was supposed to be out, but wasn't, or something like that. Look for it and read it yourself. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 08:42 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Silverberg's "Dying Inside" (was Voyage To Arcturus) Chuq You're right, I missed that point, about it being the story of a modern Midas. So did the teacher and the rest of the class. I see what you mean, and I still don't want to get near that book again. Marina Fournier Arpa: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 11:43:10 PDT From: Bill Subject: Re: Bob Silverberg's "Dying Inside." This is also one of my all time favorites of the genre(certainly the F of SF & F). Silverberg is a harsh realist(as in the "Book of Skulls") and I really felt that "Dying Inside" was a very hopeful story. Imagine what such a power would do to the average 6 year old - not the idealistic notion of a child - BUT a real person. The terror of being found out would be quite a lot for a kid to handle. Knowing all of those secrets and wondering who knows that you know. Remember when the protagonist was in Jr. High and his teacher had an interest in ESP. To fool her he intentionally got ALL of the outcomes wrong - a typical kid's reaction, and became suspect of possessing ESP powers, etc... *** Possible spoiler *** The ending was beautiful I thought. He and his sister (she hated his guts when he had the power - put yourself in her position) finally began to have a loving relationship. *** spoiler end **** I haven't read the book in 4 or 5 years, but, I have read it 3 times, and think I will reread it ... Bill ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 19:46:13 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!edge!walker@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Walker) Subject: Re: Silverberg's "Dying Inside" (was Voyage To Arcturus) Try Silverberg's "Lord Valentine's Castle", sequelled by "Majipoor Cronicles" and "Valentine Pontifex". Also an EXCELLENT short novel called "Nightwings", I've passed this one around to friends, and they all enjoyed it. WHAT?!? You don't like these? Well, go figure....(:-}> Dan Walker Edge Computer Scottsdale, Arizona ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 20:01:58 GMT From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman) Subject: more humor in sf Two more books for the "Humor in sf" category: "The Butterfly Kid" by Chester Anderson (giant blue alien lobsters in Greenwich Village, Reality Pills, etc. _Very_ funny.) "Arrive at Easterwine: the Autobiography of a Ktistec Machine" by R.A. Lafferty (Ballantine, 1971). (this is really more an addition to the Lafferty list than to the humor list; although it IS quite funny, it's also quite serious and quite good and quite Lafferty (ok, ok, I'll be quite now :)) jed hartman {{seismo, ihnp4}!bpa, cbmvax!vu-vlsi, sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 09:57:19 cst From: Brett Slocum Subject: Re: humorous SF/fantasy A very funny book that comes to mind is The Fallible Fiend by L. Sprague deCamp. A demon is summoned by a wizard to serve for a year and a day, but not knowing much about humans and the world, he makes terrible mistakes in carrying out his instructions. He tries his best, but things just don't work out. The rest of the book details his troubles as he is passed from owner to disgusted owner. Not real deep, but fun while it lasts. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Apr 87 0952-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #175 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Apr 87 0952-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #175 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 23 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 175 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Apr 87 20:26:40 GMT From: ames!oliveb!intelca!mipos3!bverreau@RUTGERS.EDU (Bernie Verreau From: ) Subject: Re: CruiseCon I hadn't intended to promote the "cruise con" idea as a great solution to convention logistics problem, but since the discussion continues ... beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes: >bverreau@mipos3.UUCP (Bernie Verreau) writes: >>One setting that seems conducive to a more relaxed gathering is >>the weekend cruise. > To be fair the idea has a few advantages. Here are a few and I'm > sure the clever can think up some more. One other advantage I'll mention is the shipboard ambiance. You really do get the feeling of a "shared experience". There's something about the setting that's conducive to egalitarianism. I remember lounging in a deck chair, feet hanging over the railing, discussing "Nightfall" [of all things] with Isaac Asimov. In some sense the environment puts one at ease. > After all of this some of you are asking "Where do I sign?" Well > before you send in your registration let's look at the other side > of the coin. ... > 1. Small Size - A book could be written about this and other > articles about the new Boskone have effectively done so. Ill > just mention that a CruiseCon is physically limited to <2000 > members even more rigidly than holding a con in small hotels > is. (NO overflow hotels) Actually, there are exceptions even to this common sense assumption. I sailed on the Fairsea from LA in '77 and we rendezvoused in the Pacific with her sister ship, the Fairwind, which had sailed from the Carribean through the Panama Canal. The ships anchored within hailing distance of one another, and a launch ferried guest speakers from one vessel to the other so that all the passengers (~2500) heard the entire lecture series. Credit travel agent, Phil Siegler, and Sitmar Cruises with pulling it off. Still, there is a size restriction, and most ships are more constrained than would be the case at some of the larger hotels. > 2. Cost - Bernie Verreau said in the original posting, "I realize > it's more expensive than renting hotel facilities..." I wonder > if he realizes how much more expensive. It has been a while since I've shopped around for cruise tickets, but just to provide some encouragement - I took my first "eclipse cruise" on the Canberra in '73, when I was still an undergraduate [Michigan State, no less!]. I shared a cabin down in steerage with three other college students - no portholes, plenty of engine noise - but the total fare for a 15-day trip with stops at two African ports was $450 (mostly earned from janitorial work in the Brody complex @$1.80/hr). That was a while back, and more recent cruises have run 3-5x more expensive, but as with airline fares, there is often a wide range of prices, with the cheaper space going first to those who don't mind giving up some of the frills. Are you sure that accommodations for a 2-3 day event wouldn't be price competitive? It needn't even leave port, although that's half the fun. > 3. Function Space and Programming - Just as a Cruise Ship is set > up to do many of the things than a con needs to do, they are > also not set up to do some of them. One of these things is > handling multi tracks of Convention Programming. The ship > expects to entertain its passengers with its fixed attractions > like the bar and casino. I recall the Canberra having many programs (lectures/movies/discussions) running concurrently, every day, for the entire cruise. There were ample public rooms to accommodate the programming. Clubs and theaters were made available during the daytime. One of the complaints of the shipboard staff was that our group rarely used the facilities provided in the traditional manner. The casino was all but abandoned by the end of the cruise. > 4. Huckster Room and Art Show - Read the above comments about > function space. There is no, repeat no secure place on board > where such things can be set up and then left unattended all > night. As far as security goes, I feel much safer on board a ship at sea than in a hotel in the convention district. The "main event" for many of the amateur astronomers on these cruises I have been discussing is the observation of a total eclipse of the sun at sea. Almost everyone on board brings cameras and telescopes to record the eclipse. Some of the equipment is quite elaborate (gyroscopically stabilized platforms, for example) and requires setup days in advance. One group from NASA had commandeered a section of the deck for erecting a purportedly million- dollar telescope/computer installation. There were very few instances of theft or vandalism reported, primarily because the ship's security kept a high profile around the clock. This seems to be SOP on cruises. > 5. Obscure Tax advantages - I dont know much about these and Me neither. Is it the deduction of a hotel tax? Port cities collect embarkation fees that may get similar tax treatment. One other point I'd like to bring up before leaving this suggestion to those who would prove it can't be done. No convention or event has a chance of succeeding unless someone with vision, resources, and determination is there to back it up. Merely suggesting that a convention be held on a cruise ship isn't going to make one happen. The organizers of Boskone seem to have a concrete idea of how things should be done. I applaud their efforts. Past success justifies continuation. In view of the fact that many would-be convention goers will be unable to join that select group, perhaps there will be those who will seek to provide alternatives. Consider this as one possibility, only a possibility. Bernie Verreau microprocessor design, Intel Corp. uucp: {hplabs|pur-ee|scgvaxd|oliveb }!intelca!mipos3!bverreau csnet/arpanet: bverreau@mipos3.intel.com ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 21:12:35 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low) Subject: Re: Re: CruiseCon > 2. Cost - Bernie Verreau said in the original posting, "I realize > it's more expensive than renting hotel facilities..." I wonder > if he realizes how much more expensive. I don't remember the > exact figures and it would depend of course on what cabin you > wanted but you are talking $1000+ for the cheapest cabin > exclusive of travel to the port of departure and back (the > Norway leaves from Miami.) To attend a regular Worldcon, one can expect to spend $300 round trip airfare $350 hotel room for 5 days $250 meals $900 total Of course, these prices are upper estimates and experienced con go'ers can think of many ways to lower the costs but the price of a cruisecon is not much more than that of a regular Worldcon. While the cost of traveling to the port is not included, once you are on board the meals are free so that evens things out. What makes a cruisecon expensive is the cost cutting methods that many fen use (e.g. 12 people sharing a room) cannot be done on a cruisecon. Danny Low ...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 10:18:32 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: UK SF-cons From: "Richard_W_Rodway.SBDERX"@Xerox.COM Does anybody know of any SF-cons that take place in the U.K. I would love to "try one out" but I have never heard of any in this country (or any non-university fan clubs)). Air fares to the U.S are a touch expensive. . . Richard W Rodway ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 04:26:08 GMT From: q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates) Subject: Re: UK SF-cons Richard_W_Rodway.SBDERX@Xerox.COM writes: >Does anybody know of any SF-cons that take place in the U.K. I >would love to "try one out" but I have never heard of any in this >country (or any non-university fan clubs)). Air fares to the U.S >are a touch expensive. . . You have not just an SF-con to attend, but a Worldcon. Conspiracy will be held in London, August 27-September 2, 1987. I don't have the address handy, but any University group should have it. By the by, the name Conspiracy may be destined to cause some confusion, as ConSpiracy is also a gaming convention, held by the Metropolitan Fantasy, Wargaming and Science Fiction Association. ConSpiracy II is under consideration for 1988, somewhere in the New York area. Robert A. West Q4071@PUCC US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place Suite A North Brunswick, NJ 08902 VOICE : (201) 821-7055 ...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071 ------------------------------ Date: Wed 22 Apr 87 09:03:07-CDT From: Russ Williams Subject: Re: minors at conventions I think Becky Slocombe has pointed out the injustice of excluding teenagers indiscriminately rather than the "rowdies" pretty well. The only real argument in favor of excluding minors that I've seen that seems convincing is the one of legal ramifications of minor guardians etc. (Especially in today's lawsuit happy climate -- but no matter what you restrictions you make, there will still be some way for some jackass to sue the convention for some obscure reason.) But isn't it possible to simply have a release form signed by parents of minors agreeing that they won't hold the hotel or con responsible for accidents to their unattended kids? That would seem a reasonable way to at least partially deal with the "legal guardian" mumbojumbo. Just a suggestion... (so no flames if someone who knows the law can say why this can't work!) Russ ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 17:03:07 GMT From: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: Weather at SnobCon oyster@uwmacc.UUCP (Vicarious Oyster) writes: > dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes: >>At Boskone 24, the temperature was below freezing with a brisk 10 >>- 20 mph wind a lot of the time. Walking back and forth between >>hotels in such weather is not my idea of fun. Imagine walking back >>and forth several times a days between two hotels in the middle of >>winter. Going out is a major production. You got put on your >>overcoat, scarf, hat, overboots, etc. > > <*** Sarcasm warning! ***> > > Yeah, that's why all of us people who live up in the northern > parts are so darned unhealthy. As a native, I don't feel too sorry for people who come here and moan about the weather either, but there is one problem with having to run around outside regularly at Boskone. It would do a real number on the type and amount of hall costumes. Imagine some of the naked barbarians getting dressed up to run to the hotel down the street... Down right out of character. I don't go for the really miniscule costumes myself, but most of the costumes I wear aren't ones I'd want to go outside in in Feb. Who want to drag a long skirt through Boston's slush? Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 22:15:14 GMT From: seismo!sun!amdcad!sco!ericg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Griswold) Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon) From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >Excerpts from the NESFA Boskone 25 Committee's tentative working >model for next year's con: >... >The above was from a NESFA newsletter. Comments, anyone? (My only >comment at this time is .) Comments? OKAY! How about: "Bye Bye Boskone, it was fun knowing you" Eric Griswold {decvax!microsoft, ihnp4, ucbvax!ucscc}!sco!ericg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 15:51 EDT From: Robert M. Gerber Subject: Conventions and Why Hotels get rid of them..... There have been a number of conventions that have lost their hotels. I am not going to name any of the conventions and start arguments, but I will list the reasons why. (These are verified fact!) 1) The sword fight in the hotel parking lot (outside) with steel blades. 2) The couple nude in the stairwell fornicating. 3) Unauthorized skinny dips and other pool breakins. 4) The couple running nude through the hotel atrium and lobby area 5) The missing vacuum cleaner motor. 6) The dry ice in the swimming pool (Had to bechemically rebalanced this takes > 24 hrs) 7) The broken plate glass window. 8) The migrating furniture and plants. 9) General rowdiness and noise level. 10) Complaints from other customers (Most noticably - AIRLINES) 11) Vandalism Items 1,2,8 & 9 caused a con to lose a hotel after >5 years. Items 3,4 & 11 caused a con to be blacklisted in one town (mostly item #4) Item 11 was paid for by the perpetrators (it was an accident...who knew silly string melded into vinal and didn't come out.) Usually it takes more than one item, but I can think of four cons on the east cost that have lost hotels one or more times plus a media conmaking thinks uncomfortably for a regular SF con in another hotel. If you owned a hotel would you want to deal with this? Also, I have worked on a number of conventions ranging from gopher to committee. I know what I am talking about in these cases. I may not agree with NESFA's proposed rules totally, but it is their con, and they might not need these restrictions in the future. One item with unknown impact is a case of fornication at worldcon which happened in a semi-public area. The people who did this are unknown, but came up as a fact with a high probability of being true. PS: Most of the mailings I have been reading sound like a rehashing of each other. Lets have some sort of moritorium on mailings about Boskone unless there is new information. Specifically, lets wait till nESFA posts another message. Also would someone at NESFA be willing to accept all comments on the future mailings and condense them before they see SF-lovers. It may save everyony reading and typing time, both on the NET and at NESFA. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 22:38:42 GMT From: seismo!sun!apple!dwb@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave W. Berry) Subject: Re: minors at conventions From: Russ Williams >But isn't it possible to simply have a release form signed by >parents of minors agreeing that they won't hold the hotel or con >responsible for accidents to their unattended kids? That would >seem a reasonable way to at least partially deal with the "legal >guardian" mumbojumbo. Just a suggestion... (so no flames if >someone who knows the law can say why this can't work!) One reason is that at several points in time, most of them quite recently, the Supreme Court has upheld the view that a parent can not sign away a minor's right to legal action. Combined with the fact that a minor can't sign a contract... Then again, the con has some legal right to say, "But you're the parent and you let them go, therefore it's your responsibility not ours. We are responsible for basic safety, you're responsible for the fact that your kid is irresponsible and you let him out of your sight" David W. Berry dwb@well.uucp dwb@Delphi dwb@apple.com ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 27 Apr 87 0915-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #176 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Apr 87 0915-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #176 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 176 Today's Topics: Books - Attanasio & Brooks & Chalker (3 msgs) & Eddings (2 msgs) & Hambly & LeGuin & Martin & Tolkien & Book Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Apr 87 00:12:50 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Radix Has *anyone* out there besides me (and Jeff Horvath) read A.A.Attanasio's awesome work _Radix_? (Bantam-Spectra paper, used to be a great big thick hardcover). This may be the best book of the 80's, and no one's read it?!? Thanks. ..sunybcs!ugcherk ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 87 00:12:50 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Wishsong Does anyone have any idea when the hell Terry Brooks's _Wishsong of hannara_ will EVER EVER come out in mass market paper? The book's ONLY about 4 years old already!!! How many billion copies did it sell in hardcover and trade?!? Thanks. ..sunybcs!ugcherk ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 19:21:59 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Chalker's borrowings > "There are many lands larger than the one from which thou comest. > There are many other continents and many other lands. One, called >simply The Land, is so fouled up that no one from thy world will >believe it's real, even though he be there. Another once put down >a dark force under a great wizard, and now that wizard's son, >Alateen, refights his father's battles. From Lan Kemar to Lemoria, >all the lands that make up our world are continually threatened." > >1) The first continent, The Land, is most definitely from >Donaldson's Covenant series. >2) The second, Alateen is the youth organization of Alcoholics >Anonomous, making that the Shanara series and Alanon. >3) I know of Lankemarr, but from what series is it? >4) What and where is Lemoria??? I presume this is Lemuria. (Thongor's?) There's more stuff on the map: Notice the Plateau of Leng (from Lovecraft's "Dreamquest of Unknown Kadath")? Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Apr 87 10:57 EST From: nj Subject: Re: Chalker "Lan Kemar", if you slur it over a bit, sounds like "Lankhmar" (sp?), which, if memory serves, is the city where Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser reside. (At least, in the second half of the first book. I haven't gotten around to reading the rest of them.) nj ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 23:14:12 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Chalker's borrowings haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes: >>From Lan Kemar to Lemoria... >>3) I know of Lankemarr, but from what series is it? Lankhmar: from Fritz Leiber's "Lankhmar" zillogy, about 2 roguish heros who get in and out of trouble from their semi-legal activities. I have read only _The Swords of Lankhmar_. It is pretty good and semi-funny light reading. ..sunybcs!ugcherk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 20:11:29 GMT From: Jeff Dalton Subject: Eddings and Lit Crit I liked the Belgariad, or at least enjoyed reading it, but it certainly deserves criticism. The story wasn't predictable in detail -- I didn't, say, know what anyone's name would be before they were introduced in the text or what color their clothes would be -- but the overall structure was one we've all seen before, and nothing in it even threatened our expectations of the kind of story it would be and how it would turn out. I enjoyed reading it -- all five volumes -- but it was never challenging. I read most of it on busses commuting to and from work. Eddings supposedly "turned to the Belgariad to develop certain technical and philosophical ideas concerning that genre [i.e., fantasy]". It's hard to see what these ideas might have been. The book was too long and unfocused, the characters stereotypical, and the dialogue almost painfully bland and unvaried. It was impossible to distinguish characters by the way they spoke. This sort of thing has been done better before, and I'm sure Eddings could do better himself. Room for improvements? Would anyone really answer "no"? From: harvard!linus!watmath!watnot!jrmartin@RUTGERS.EDU > I've been no less than amused by the lame criticism's I've heard > about the Belgariad recently. I fully accept that there are some > people who perhaps did not like the series, and they are quite > entitled to their opinion just as I am. Well, whether or not someone liked it is clearly their opinion, and not particularly interesting in itself. Their reasons, however, may be worth hearing. > To begin with, to say that the Belgariad was completely > predictable was more than interesting. It's very easy to say that > you knew what was going to happen every step of the way after > you've read the book, but I would have been more interested to > hear them correctly predict the various surprises BEFORE they had > read them. The "surprises" were never particularly surprising. They never forced the reader to re-evaluate all that came before, there were no revelations, no great blocks of understanding suddenly falling into place or crumbling beneath our feet. Sometimes, predictability, at whetever level, is fine. Sometimes it's part of the suspense (we know it will happen, but when?) Sometimes other things hold our attention. But not always. Sometimes, we notice that we're sitting there reading a book, and it's getting late, and there's no compelling reason not to wait until tomorrow. > Another minor point was their complaint that "everybody got > married". This is obviously untrue to anyone who has read the > book. Really? I though it a fair comment even though it wasn't strictly true. > I could go on, but I am quite sure that I know where our prophets > real problem with the Belgariad lies. It was too enjoyable. It > was a good book and the good guys won. It wasn't depressing. It > seems a common trait of our "literary experts" to only like books > which are so depressing as to be insanity. No, we just like books to be well written. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 11:45:17 GMT From: rochester!ur-tut!agoe@RUTGERS.EDU (Karl Cialli) Subject: Reviews/Opinions on new Eddings: "Guardian of the West"? I know there has been some discussion on David Eddings and the Belgariad as of late but nothing on the newest book (and series) _Guardian of the West_. Well, what did you think? I would like to hear what some people say about the book before I pick it up this time. With the Belgariad, having to wait nine months to a year between books really made me wonder why I was doing this to myself and I should I have just waited till all five were out... Just in case the facts about this series aren't clear, a friend of mine saw Eddings at a bookstore earlier in the year and he said the Malleoran (sp?) was going to be another five books and then more two more books to follow to explore the Prologue in depth. Is it worth starting now or perhaps wait till it gets better/worse? For what it is worth, although I do agree with a lot of the criticisms of the Belgariad, I still found it enjoyable, light reading. I just don't like to be left hanging! Karl Cialli MCI International Inc. Dept. 433/875 2 International Drive Rye Brook, NY 10573 UUCP:{allegra,cmcl2,decvax,harvard,seismo}!rochester!ur-tut!agoe ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 19:05:17 GMT From: ames!amdahl!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce Holloway) Subject: Re: Barbara Hambly's work. mooks@bucc2.UUCP writes: >Has anyone out there read _The_Silent_Tower_ by Barbara Hambly? >I have read the first book and highly recommend it. The book deals >with a computer operator working for an extremely high-tech company >who gets dragged into another world through a hole in space time. She's more than a computer operator; in fact, she's the top genius programmer for a super secret defense contractor. Typical hacker hours, etc., but she doesn't know the first thing about programming. I like her stupid method of trying to break into somebody's account near the end of the book. For one thing, she can't master a simple B-Tree algorithm. Second, her computer can try ten passwords a second, from dictionaries, baby name books, and just randomly coming up with letters. The security of that system must be abyssmal. I've never seen a system that will LET you make ten tries per second. Most put in a small, two second or so delay. And most allow you only a limited number of tries before you're disconnected (I've seen from one to five tries allowed). And 9 characters/password* x 10 passwords/sec = 80 chars/sec - very near the maximum of 120 chars/sec at 1200 baud. Not much time to see if you were right. And THEN, she notes that although trying every combination of eight letters and numbers might take thousands of years, she's confident that it will take only days (days she doesn't have, though). [ *including a carriage return ] > The Darwath trilogy (again recommended), while similar in >premise, is very different in plot to _The_Silent_Tower_, and is >worth reading as well. Is worth reading INSTEAD. I've read "The Ladies of Mandrigyn", and it's worth it, although there is little original in it. Bruce Holloway {seismo,hplabs,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 22:00:41 GMT From: rochester!kodak!sprankle@RUTGERS.EDU (Daniel R. Lance) Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin and WAKE UP! schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz) writes: >retief@bradley.UUCP writes: >> No, I don't remember anymore names. What other books has LeGuin >> written in the Earth-Hain-etc framework? >bradley mentions: > Disposessed > Rocannan's World > Semley's Necklace >What about: > The Left Hand of Darkness I believe that "The Word for World is Forest" is also set in this framework. It's been a while since I read it, though. Daniel R. Lance Eastman Kodak Company sprankle@kodak.uucp Purdue University EE: lanced@ei.ecn.purdue.edu ...{decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!lanced ...{harvard,seismo}!rochester!kodak!sprankle ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 15:23:22 GMT From: rruxqq!thumper!mike@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: George R.R. Martin query I recently read the author's introduction to George R.R. Martin's story "Portraits of His Children" in NEBULA AWARDS 21, edited by George Zebrowski. (The story comes recommended, especially if you're a Martin fanatic like me.) Here's the text of that intro... "The truth of it is, writers do have peculiar relationships with our characters. They are our children in more senses than one. They are born of our imaginations, carry much of ourselves in them, and embody whatever dreams we dream of immortality. I can't claim to be an exception. Abner Marsh and Joshua York [1], Sandy and Maggy and Froggy [2], Val One-Wing [3] and half-faced Bretan Braith [4], Kenny with his monkey [5], poor wasted Melody [6], the improved model Melantha Jhirl [7], and the callous Simon Kress [8], and of course my lost Lya [9]. When I type I can see their faces. This is a writer's story, yes, and more true than some of us would care to admit." Below are the character identifications I could make immediately, but I can't place either [5] or [6]. Can anybody else? I thought I'd read everything Martin ever wrote, but obviously not. [1] FEVRE DREAM [2] THE ARMAGEDDON RAG [3] WINDHAVEN [4] DYING OF THE LIGHT [5] ?? [6] ?? [7] "Nightflyers" [8] "Sandkings" [9] "A Song For Lya" Mike Caplinger mike@bellcore.com {decvax,ihnp4}!thumper!mike ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 02:05:31 GMT From: ag4@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Anne Louise Gockel) Subject: Tolkien: _Lays of Beleriand_ and _Shaping of Middle Earth_ Two new books by JRR and Christopher Tolkien have been released: _The Lays of Beleriand_ and _The Shaping of Middle Earth: The Quenta, the Ambarkanta, and the Annals_. A fifth (_The Lost Road_) is 'in preparation'. Has anyone read these? (I won't have a chance for several weeks at least.) Does anyone have any comments on the first two volumes of this set _The Book of Lost Tales_ vols I and II? I've always been a fan of Middle Earth, but I admit that I let _Lost Tales_ sit for the last couple of years after reading about 30 pages of Tolkien's letters and realizing that I found many of his ideas rather repulsive. Letting that subject aside, any comments on the sets that his son has been editing and publishing? The following is from the opening preface to _The Lay of Bereliand_: 'This third part of 'The History of Middle-earth' contains the two major poems by JRR Tolkien concerned with the legends of the Elder Days: The _Lay of the Children of Hurin_ in alliterative verse, and the _Lay of Lethian_ in octosyllabic couplets. The alliterative poem was composed while my father held appointments at the University of Leeds (1920-5); he abandoned it for the _Lay of Leithian) at the end of that time, and never turned to it again. I have found no reference to it in any letter or other writing of his that has survived... and I do not recollect his ever speaking of it. But this poem, which though extending to more than 2000 lines is only a fragment in relation to what he once planned, is the most sustained embodiment of his abiding love of the resonance and richness of sound that might be achieved in the ancient English metre. .... The sections of both poems are interleaved with commentaries which are primarily concerned to trace the evolution of the legends and the lands they are set in.' From the intro to _The Shaping of Middle Earth_: 'This book brings the 'History of Middle-earth' to some time in the 1930's: the cosmographical work _Ambarkanta_ and the earliest _Anals of Valinor_ and _Annals of Beleriand_, while later than the _Quenta Noldorinwa_ -- the 'Silmarillion' version that was written, as I believe, in 1930 -- cannot themselves be more precisely dated. This is the stage at which my father had arrived when _The Hobbit_ was written. Comparison of the _Quenta_ with the published _Silmarillion_ will show that the essential character of the work was now fully in being; in the shape and fall of sentences, even of whole passages, the one is constantly echoed in the other; and yet the published _Silmarillion_ is between three and four times as long. The fifth volume will contain my father's unfinished 'time-travel' story _The Lost Road_, together with the earliest forms of the legend of Numenor, which were closely related to it; the _Lhammas_ or Account of Tongues, _Etymologies_; and all the writings concerned with the First Age up to the time when _The Lord of the Rings_ was begun.' Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 15:09 EDT From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Keith Anderson) Subject: Identity request Does anyone know who wrote the novel _Dream_Games_? It's about a pair of criminals who use psychic abilities to track people down and rob them. I read the book several years ago, and, now that I have just finished reading _Neuromancer_, I noticed some similarities. Could DG be an early cyberpunk? DG, as I remember stressed mainly biological powers, but I do remember the mention of certain hardwired goodies. I was just wondering. Also, I would like to know if the author has written any other books on the same subject/ in the same universe. Keith Anderson Hampshire College ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 27 Apr 87 0953-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #177 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Apr 87 0953-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #177 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 177 Today's Topics: Films - Good SF Films (13 msgs) & THX1138 (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Apr 87 20:45:32 GMT From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: Good SF Movies As long as we're talking Rachel Welsh and SF movies, I'll suggest _Bedazzled_ starring Dudley Moore, and Peter Cook as the Devil. Raquel Welsh does a very believable Lust. Fun film. david rickel decwrl!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 20:47:21 GMT From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF movies I think "Filmed on location, in space" was in _Hardware Wars_, not _Dark Star_. david rickel decwrl!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: Fri 24 Apr 87 11:16:53-EST From: Rob Freundlich From: Subject: re:The Lathe of Heaven (was *GOOD* SF movies) >I would like to nominate Ursula Le Guin's The Lathe of Heaven. I >saw it on TV, don't know if it was a movie or a "made for TV movie" >... I, too, saw the TV movie, years before I knew what Science Fiction was. I didn't know the title of the movie, or who the author was, or anything else about it. Yet, last year, when I found a copy of _The Lathe of Heaven_ lying around the house and read the back cover (complete with scenes from the TV movie), the movie came back to me immediately. I particularly remembered one of the final scenes, where everything, including the people, is in various shades of gray. Since the movie stuck with me (the memories were all good) for so long, I'll have to agree and say that it qualifies as *GOOD* science fiction. Rob Freundlich s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 08:08:05 GMT From: seismo!prlb2!kulcs!paulb@RUTGERS.EDU (Paul Busse') Subject: Re: Good SF Movies Here are a few SF-movies from the old continent. Don't expect lasers or heroes, just good SF in the style of _1984_ _Malevil_ (Post Holocaust) _Solaris_ (Tarkovski God bless his soul) There's also a Belgian Movie that's called _Gejaagd_door_de_winst_ It's equivalent to _Gone_with_the_gain_ or _Gone_with_the_money_. It's about a dioxin accident in a factory. It had the same history as _The_China_Syndrome_(Not bad either) : during filming the plot became reality ... An SF - movie I loved was _The_secret_of_Nymh_ (Great plot). I also have a question. Does Anyone remember the following plot: " Due to two tests with Nuclear Weapons (One US and one USSR) Earth leaves it's orbit and 'sets the controls for the heart of the sun'. It's kind of a hot :-) story." It's, I think, a British Movie, or at Least the place of action is London. paulb@kulcs.UUCP ... mcvax!prlb2!kulcs!paulb ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 19:23:26 GMT From: cbmvax!vu-vlsi!hvrunix!sdorn@RUTGERS.EDU (Sherman Dorn) Subject: re: *GOOD* SF Movies My favorite SF Movies (e.g., _The Quiet Earth_) are the ones which keep me up at night going, "What the Hell was That?" For similar reasons, I think I prefer "The Prisoner" to all other TV sf. So, the 64$ question is, What can "we" do to improve sf entertainment? To paraphrase from every single prose essay Harlan Ellison has written (:-), "industry executives" mess up or producers mess up or anybody messes up by interfering with the natural and good creative processes involved in a TV or film production. For example, a good director will not change much of what a good screenwriter does (admittedly, after the screenplay's been ripped up in a fine comradely way several times). Etc., etc. My notion (and perhaps this should be in a .wanted group) is that if enough people (without enough money) fund an independent film company just to produce sf films -- good ones! (:-) -- perhaps we could get some more quality films. Or am I just dreaming? Sherman Dorn P.S. Sorry, that should be "with enough money." ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 04:43:46 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Back to the Future Re: *GOOD* SF Movies brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >>One of the very best science fiction films I have ever seen (in >>fact, the best) is "Brazil." I couldn't believe that "Back to the >>Future," which is just fluff, beat it out for the Hugo last year. >>It just goes to show what people consider "good," I suppose. > >It depends on what is being judged in the award. Is it "Best SF in >a movie" or "Best movie based on SF?" The Hugos are always a pretty poor judge of "state of the art". Even if something really good manages to win, it's just because the something good had great press. It's not at all clear which the nominees and voters are doing, picking what they thought was best or picking what was their favourite. The Hugo is a popularity award, and Back to The Future had far more viewers and probably far fewer OFFENDED viewers than Brazil did. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 15:48:40 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies > I would also add "The Man Who Fell to Earth" as another >excellent science-fiction movie. David Bowie is great in it. I saw _The Man Who Fell to Earth_ about a year ago. I did not enjoy it at all. It just dragged on and on and nothing happened. Or if something did happen, the viewer was totally lost as to what it was. Also, Bowie neither added nor subtracted anything from the film. ..sunybcs!ugcherk ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 02:46:25 GMT From: seismo!utai!hub.toronto.edu!ping@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: GOOD sf From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu > No one has mentioned THE TERMINATOR. I thougt it was one of > the best SF movies of this decade... Also I would include ST II, > and only ST II in my list (not I, not III, and not IV). FINALLY someone has mentioned an ST movie. I thought ST II was a great movie too, but ST I is by far the best -- it is in the real Star Trek spirit. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 04:11:35 GMT From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike MacLeod) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies I see here and there Silent Running named as a good SF movie. Now, I can stand hearing ships whoosh through soundless vacuum, and Close Encounter - E.T. aliens that are so evolutionarily unfit that they'd never make it out of the gate. But when the plot complication in the movie ("The plants are dying 'cause there's not enough >sunlightI saw _The Man Who Fell to Earth_ about a year ago. I did not enjoy >it at all. It just dragged on and on and nothing happened. Or if >something did happen, the viewer was totally lost as to what it >was. > Also, Bowie neither added nor subtracted anything from the film. Well, this is a question of taste, which is unarguable, but I really liked the movie, and thought Bowie added a great deal to it. But as a factual point, there are two versions of the movie around. It was first released with about 1/2 hour cut out; it has been rereleased with the cuts put back in. What was cut was about 1/2 explicit sex and 1/2 some pretty vital plot development. If anyone is going to see it, I strongly recommend trying to find the uncut rerelease. And even having seen it about six times in the last ten years, two of those being the uncut versions, there are in fact parts of the plot that I never caught on to. But it didn't matter; it's meant to evoke a mood, not be impervious to nitpicking of logical details. (I mean, there is no reason for the set of bizarre rooms he is kept in-- you know, with the pingpong table and all. But it doesn't matter; the rooms are fragmented, stereotypes jumbled together with no certainty, like his own state of mind.) Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 23:17:42 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: *GOOD* SF movies From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Dick Botting) > How about a really silly SF film: "Darkstar" - made as a student > project (USC) by some-one who is now famous. ...but who made it?? John Carpenter (HALLOWEEN, THE THING, CHRISTINE, STARMAN, et alia) and Dan O'Bannon (ALIEN, BLUE THUNDER, et alia). > There is/was an short atmospheric black-and-white film which was > set in Paris, about a man who was so obsessed with one childhood > event that he could be forced to travel in time... It is also a > post-'holocaust' story. Two questions - > 1. What was the title? LA JETE'E (1963), known in translation as THE JETTY, THE PIER, or THE RUNWAY. > 2. Was it based on a story? Not that I can determine. I suppose I'm expected to list what *I* consider to be "good" sf movies. Well, most of my choices have likely to have been listed by others (you know, the obvious ones like FORBIDDEN PLANET, THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, 2001:A A SPACE ODYSSEY, stuff like that). What I'll do is to mention some films that I liked quite a bit for various reasons, and are rather obscure, are not generally thought of as science fiction (or fantasy), or haven't been widely mentioned already. NOTE: these are *not* up for debate, by which I mean you are free to disagree (I don't agree with a lot of choices mentioned already), but I will not spend the next six months defending my choices (some of which are bound to cause consternation) against all comers. ALPHAVILLE (1965) * ALTERED STATES (1980) ANGELS IN THE OUTFIELD (1952) * THE ASPHYX (1973) BRAINSTORM (1983) CARRIE (1976) CHARLY (1968) DEATHWATCH (1983) [This is a real sleeper, based on D. G. Compton's THE CONTINUOUS KATHERINE MORTONHOE, or THE UNSLEEPING EYE. Stars Harvey Keitel, Max Von Sydow, and Romy Schneider.] DRAGONSLAYER (1981) DR. STRANGELOVE (1964) EXCALIBUR (1981) FAIL SAFE (1964) GHOSTBUSTERS (1985) AN INSPECTOR CALLS (1954) IT HAPPENS EVERY SPRING (1949) * IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE (1946) [I even like the made-for-tv remake, IT HAPPENED ONE CHRISTMAS (1977).] JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH (1959) LOVE AND DEATH (1975) THE MAN IN THE WHITE SUIT (1951) MIGHTY JOE YOUNG (1949) 1984 (1984) OH, HEAVENLY DOG (1980) POLTERGEIST (1982) THE POWER (1967) THE PURPLE ROSE OF CAIRO (1985) SOMEWHERE IN TIME (1980) SPECIAL BULLETIN (1983) TESTAMENT (1983) 20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA (1954) Films marked with an * are ones that I confess to not having seen in too many years, and might not be as good as I remember them. My Top SF/Fantasy Movies of All Time (two each for five distinct sub-categories) would be: Science Fiction: BLADE RUNNER (1982) 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY (1968) Speculative Fiction: A CLOCKWORK ORANGE (1971) BRAZIL (1985) Fantasy: KING KONG (1933) THE WIZARD OF OZ (1939) Supernatural Fantasy: THE LAST WAVE (1977) RESURRECTION (1981) Adventure Fantasy/SF: RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK (1981) THE ROAD WARRIOR (1982) ALIENS (1986) [Can't knock it done to two.] --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 06:42:55 GMT From: motown!sys1!killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak) says: > For pretty good ones, how about: > Brazil > Charley Have seen neither, but heard they were great (especially "Brazil"). > The "Mad Max Trilogy" Saw "Mad Max" and "Beyond Thunderdome", they really weren't all that great. Not really science fiction, for that matter.... the Bomb is, alas, science fact. > Testament isn't really science fiction (see above, about the Bomb). > Sleeper YES!!!! I have seen this Woody Allen film exactly twice. Each time, I alternated between goosebumps and uneasy laughter. This is one of the all-time greats, folks, if you haven't seen it, SEE IT! I'm heading right on down to my local video store to see if they can dig this one up... > Zelig > The Last Wave Neither are particularly science fiction. Eric Green elg%usl.CSNET {cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 87 22:34:36 GMT From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies One of my favorite SF (fantasy?) movies is Jittlov's "The Wizard of Speed and Time." Does anyone know the status of his "The Wizard of Hollywood"? The last time I spoke with him he said the special effects were taking forever and it should be out this fall. I don't think it will be. Karen Williams g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 01:08:19 GMT From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) Subject: Re: THX 1138 ccplumb@watmath.UUCP (Colin Plumb) writes: > I remember hearing that it was something George Lucas did really > early (sorry, no hard date), and, kind of interesting, I recall a > scene in Star Wars when Luke gets into a stormtrooper's uniform, > the control tower calls him and says "THX 1138! THX 1138! Why > aren't you responding?" > > Can someone refute or validate these claims? You're right on both points. The Star Wars line was a deliberate pun on this previous movie. I remember reading the book (Ben Bova) and seeing the movie late a night too. Very strange but engrossing nonetheless. It is basically a retelling of _Brave_New_World_ in a slightly different setting, with obvious differences in some places (like the government's attitude toward sex). I mean this in the sense that the overall theme was the dehumanization of human society through making people artificially happy and an overemphasis on efficiency and social control (including population and genetic control). If I remember correctly, Lucas did this while he was in film school. Coppola liked it and pursuaded Lucas to expand it to the length that you saw. I never hearing much about this movie - maybe it was too bizarre for some people. Reading the book helps, though some of the stuff you have to actually see to appreciate. Correct if I've made any mistakes. Eiji Hirai USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081 phone: (215)328-8449 (this phone is till May '87) UUCP: {seismo,ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai ARPA: bpa!swatsun!hirai@seismo.css.gov ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 04:38:34 GMT From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) Subject: Re: THX 1138 hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai) writes: > You're right on both points. The Star Wars line was a > deliberate pun on this previous movie. I remember reading the > book (Ben Bova) and seeing Well, I goofed. The line was not '...THX1138' but something else as pointed out by someone else. However, the line really was '..THX1138...' in the book by Lucas. I hope I'm right. Eiji Hirai USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081 phone: (215)328-8449 (this phone is till May '87) UUCP: {seismo,ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai ARPA: bpa!swatsun!hirai@seismo.css.gov ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 27 Apr 87 1011-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #178 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Apr 87 1011-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #178 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 178 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Capek & Donaldson (2 msgs) & Farmer & Hansen (2 msgs) & L'Engle & Tiptree (2 msgs) & Van Vogt & Humorous SF (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Apr 87 17:55:22 GMT From: dzoey@umd5.umd.edu (Joe Herman) Subject: Originality I picked up a copy of MZB's Swords and Sorceress I the other day. I was pleasantly surprised. I had expected the standard S&S collection of short stories with all the male gender words changed to female gender words. This (thankfully) was not the case. Oh, a couple of the stories are like that, but the majority show a unique female perspective that I rarely see in other writing. It made the collection much more interesting since the stories had some familiar features (it is S&S after all), but some of the motives were different. To me, it showed that there was more than one way to solve a problem. Very interesting...I can't wait to pick up volumes #2 and #3. dzoey@umd5.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 14:48:00 GMT From: harvard!ima!inmet!janw@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by allbery@ncoast.UUCP writes: >R.U.R. is credited as the first story to use robots. As for calling >them that: "robot" is a westernization of the Czech word for >"worker". (It should be noted that the R.U.R. ``robots'' were >actually biological in nature (Martri puppets, anyone?), not what >we call robots). One or two inexactitudes here. R.U.R. is a play, not a story. "Robot" is not a westernization of the Czech word for worker, but was a new coinage in the Czech language, based on the root of the Czech word for "work". The word was suggested to Capek, the author of R.U.R., by his brother, as described in Capek's memoirs. Robots were, indeed, biological - rather like androids in modern SF. BTW: R.U.R. is an abbreviation for "Rossum's Universal Robots". Rossum invented the things in the play; his name also means "reason". So, in English it could be rendered as "Reason's Universal Workmen". The play is an allegory. Personally, I feel that, except for a great new idea, the play is much weaker than some other science fiction of Capek. It was not labeled as such, but it was good, and would be well worth publishing and reading as SF now. *The War against Salamanders* is, perhaps, the best. BTW again, Capek's name has a cap like inverted '^' over the C, and is pronounced Chah-pek. Jan Wasilewsky ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 09:19 EDT From: Subject: Stephen Donaldson req. Concerning _Mirror_of_her_Dreams_, I read it cover to cover in one sitting. A long sitting. Not because I liked it, but because I kept hoping something would actually happen. I kept hoping something would occur to make me feel like I hadn't wasted 6 hours reading the book. It has a plot, but none of the plot lines come close to being resolved. The main characters are interesting...I think. Development of characters over this very long book is summed up by "Apprentice tries to grow out of clumsiness, and does a mediocre job of it", and "Milquetoast tries to get some backbone, and does a mediocre job of it." I am going to read the next installment when it comes out. I think enough of Donaldson's other works to give him this much chance, but I would have enjoyed _Mirror_of_her_Dreams_ a lot more if it had been half as long. Greg Porter PORTERG@VCUVAX (Bitnet) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 10:04:53 GMT From: crew@decwrl.dec.com (Roger Crew) Subject: Re: Stephen Donaldson req. PORTERG@VCUVAX.BITNET writes: >...I think enough of Donaldson's other works to give him this much >chance, but I would have enjoyed _Mirror_of_her_Dreams_ a lot more >if it had been half as long. As I understand it, the original drafts for Lord Foul's Bane & The Illearth War were each something on the order of 700pp. Del Rey basically said, ``Too big... start cutting...'' As a writer's reputation/career/following advances, it probably gets harder and harder for an editor to insist on things like this... Roger Crew@sushi.stanford.edu decwrl!crew ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 02:57:27 GMT From: seismo!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Phillip Jose Farmer caron@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Raymond C. Caron) writes: > Okay, I've just completed reading the first book in the > _World_Of_ The_Tiers_ series, _The_Maker_of_Universes_ and to my > surprise it was quite good. Could someone tell me more about the > series, like the rest of the books and maybe some SHORT reviews of > them? I read these a long, long time ago. Farmer did the same thing he did in the Riverworld series - took an interesting idea, dragged it out, and by the end started trivializing the whole thing. I don't know exactly how many there were; they are OK up to but *not* including _The_Lavalite_World_, which was without a doubt the worst book I have ever read. If you read it, expect to delve without warning into complicated explanations of Life, the Universe, and Everything in the context of the books, and have to remember all of the (implausible) details to keep following the action. Details like the "moosoids" they ride on keep hitting you over the head. Up to then the series was not tooooo bad, although in the previous book he started getting into long drawn-out action sequences that seemed to have no point. John ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 21:04:32 GMT From: srt@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Identity request Gort@UMass.BITNET writes: >Does anyone know who wrote the novel _Dream_Games_? Karl Hansen, _Dream Games_, Ace 1985. There is another book set in the same universe, I think a prequel, but I don't recall the name offhand. A caveat to the unaware: Dream Games is not a novel for the light of heart - some scenes are fairly obscene. Scott R. Turner ARPA: srt@ucla UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 04:09:24 GMT From: BCSCHONE@pucc.princeton.edu (Brian Schoner) Subject: Re: Identity request srt@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: >Gort@UMass.BITNET writes: >>Does anyone know who wrote the novel _Dream_Games_? >Karl Hansen, _Dream Games_, Ace 1985. There is another book set in >the same universe, I think a prequel, but I don't recall the name >offhand. The novel in question is _War Games_ - publisher and date unknown offhand. It is set in the same universe as _Dream Games_, and features the same extensive sex and outrageous coincidences (i.e. everyone the main characters ever knew winds up in the same unit of the Combrid Corps, but they don't recognize each other until the end. Sound familiar?...) The plot of _War Games_ is, as I recall, somewhat better than that of _Dream Games_, but don't quote me on that. I read both books some time ago, and it seems to me that Mr. Hansen ran out of names - as I recall, the characters in both books have the exact same names but bear no apparent relation to each other. Brian Schoner ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 19:38:58 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: L'Engle and the non-trilogy From: (Dave Meile) > I'd like to point out that not ALL stories have to be tightly > coupled. ... Why demand that all books by an author conform to > some marketing idiot's idea of what sells? The > trilogy/quatrology/quintology is vastly over-rated. In many ways, > I PREFER to read books that are only loosely linked to each other. > Other genres of fiction don't have the fixation with trilogies > that the science fiction/fantasy readers have come to expect. I > also read most any Nero Wolfe/Sherlock Holmes novel/short-story I > can get. They are complete books, in and of themselves ... and > the same can be said for the "non"trilogy of L'Engle. Though you don't indicate whom you're talking to, I suppose you meant me, since I "complained" (which is much too harse a word) about the lack of connections between the later books and the first. You didn't really understand what I was getting at. I don't care if they form a "tightly connected" trilogy or not. No, I don't demand that each picks up the story where the previous one left off, or whatever. And the "marketing idiot's idea of what sells" point is silly, since the books *are* marketed as a trilogy. When you write a novel about some characters, one of the things you expect (or at least, *I* expect) is that the characters grow and learn from their experiences. When an author writes a second novel with characters from the first, I expect that they go into the second story with the experiences from the first shaping their actions. If not, why bother to use the same characters? Some folks disagree with my contentions, but I still feel that when the Murry kids encountered the strange goings-on in A WIND IN THE DOOR and THE SWIFTLY TILTING PLANET, they acted like they'd never had a weird adventure before. Their encounter with the Brain should have given them some insight on how to deal with the Eythroi, yet they seemed to forget that their encounter with the Brain ever happened. Only the most superficial references connect the events of the three books. Contrast this with another series of hers, the Austin Family novels. In each one, the characters behave in ways that take into account what has gone before. For example, Vicki Austin's reactions to Zachary Gray in A RING OF ENDLESS LIGHT were based on what she knew of him from THE MOON BY NIGHT. If these books were like the "Time Trilogy", Vicki would have run into Zach in RING as if for the first time, not remembering that she met him before. If you don't agree with my position, like some others here, then fine, we'll agree to disagree. But please don't imply that my complaint makes me a drooling zombie about series books and trilogies. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 16:48:31 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Tiptree's dead? (doubtful! also Terry Carr) >Has Alice Sheldon actually died, and if so, when? I don't remember >seeing this in SF Chronicle or any of the other zines that deal in >such things.... IF it has happened, it has happened very recently. I've heard no word of it from any of my sources, and on none of the networks, so I consider it rather doubtful. The only person I know of who has died in SFdom recently is Terry Carr, who died in early April. It could be someone got names mixed up. For those who are interested, I'm planning on doing a series of appreciations for Terry in OtherRealms #16. If you want to contribute to this, drop me a line. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 21:13:16 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Tiptree From: puff!williams (Karen Williams) > Something I found ironic was Harlan Ellison saying, in _Again, > Dangerous Visions_, that while Kate Wilhelm was the woman to watch > in the next few years, James Tiptree, Jr., was the man to watch. > (By "to watch" he meant that they were the best of the > up-and-coming.) Even more embarrassing was Bob Silverberg's *faux pas*. Around the early 70's, the speculation that Tiptree was a woman started making the rounds, mostly based on the fact that a lot of folks could not believe that a man could've written "The Women That Men Don't See". In Tiptree's second collection, WARM WORLDS AND OTHERWISE (1975), Silverberg wrote an introduction, "Who is Tiptree, What Is He?" that mentioned this rumor, and denied it flatly, stating with a completely straight face that it was clear to him that there was no doubt that Tiptree was male. I don't think he's ever been able to live it down since. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 1987 01:31 EDT (Fri) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: Dennis Rears Subject: Looking for A.E Vogt Books The first two are in print in paperback, although it wouldn't hurt to check used book store also. The third book, alas, is also in print, and is nowhere near the quality of the first two. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 11:00:32 EDT From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Andy R. Steinberg) Subject: Re: Humourous sf Apart from the obvious Douglas Adams works the only other funny literature I can think of offhand is COSMICOMICS by Italo Calvino. Cosmicomics is a collection of short stories with similar plots but different situations. It's difficult to describe it without spoiling it but I'll try. Italo Calvino takes known physical laws and puts them to uses you would never imagine, using odd properties to cause strife and comic relief. MILD SPOILERS FOLLOW In one of the stories there is a "man" who life-span is millions of years long. One day he does something embarrassing. Luckily, there is no-one else around to see it. 50,000 years later he receives a message from another planet 50,000 light years away saying "I SAW YOU!". Deeply hurt, he sends an apology, but it will take another 50,000 years to reach its destination. END MILD SPOILERS This is typical of Cosmicomics stories. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 04:08:29 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Smith) Subject: Re: Funny SF "Papa Schimelhorns Yang", be Reginald Bretnor. There is a collection out that has that story, plus several other "Papa" stories. The "Ferdinand Feghoot" short ( very short ) stories by Grendal Brierton are funny. ( Yes, I know about anagrams... ). I seem to recall that the "Captain Schuster" stories by Sam Something- or-other have some funny parts. Also, the "Chap Foey Rider" stories by Hayford Pierce. Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Apr 87 14:49:35 EDT From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (RG Traynor, UMass-Boston) Subject: Humor in SF The funniest SF book I ever read was The Vain Robot, by Henry Kuttner (another undeservedly obscure author of the Golden Age). It concerned an inventor who could only invent when drunk, and how his inventions always appeared after a binge without instructions or any indication of what they were for. I particularly recall one delicious line: "Five minutes later, Gallagher was singing a duet with his can opener." I think the thing came out from Lancer, or some such ridiculously obscure imprint, which is a shame. Absolutely hilarious. Lisa Evans Malden, MA ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 04:20:59 GMT From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!percival!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU (Leonard From: Erickson) Subject: Re: more humor in sf >hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman) writes: >Two more books for the "Humor in sf" category: >"The Butterfly Kid" by Chester Anderson (giant blue alien lobsters > in Greenwich Village, Reality Pills, etc. _Very_ funny.) This book has two "sequels" that are just as strange as it was. "The Unicorn Girl" by Michael Kurland. (note that both Anderson & Kurland are _characters_ in both books! And this one has a person by the name of Tom Waters... which leads us to--) "The Probability Pad" by T.A. Waters (yes, all _three_ of them are in this one....) Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 27 Apr 87 1019-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #179 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Apr 87 1019-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #179 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 179 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: SUN MAR 29, 1987 20.46.12 EST From: "Mitchel Ludwig" Subject: "Mister" Saavik in Star Trek Ron Singleton writes : > For those at or above the rank of Lieutenant Commander the rank is > normally used, with a Lt. Cdr. being called "Commander" Both the fact that Lieutenant Commander Scott is called just that, and also that through the change from series to movies, when Spock goes from Lt. Cdr. to full Commander he retains the title of "Mr." leads me to believe that the title is probably reserved for the Sciences section of Star Fleet. In addition, though the Movie STII tells us that Saavik is a Lt. Cdr., the book starts with her as a Lieutenant, still considered a Mister. Considering the fact that she is crossed between the science and command branch of SF, her title of 'Mister' wouldn't be out of hand. Not to beat a dead horse but Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, and Janice Rand all hold a rank of Lt. Cdr. or above during the course of the four movies and none are called 'Mister.' Mitch MFL1@LEHIGH ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 19:07:18 GMT From: ur-tut!jmpi@rutgers.edu (John Pisello) Subject: Re: "Mister" Saavik in Star Trek I am not a Navy ROTC, but I *am* an Air Force ROTC, so I think I'm pretty close on this one. Anyhow, we use "Mister" to address anyone, regardless of rank. It all comes down to a prohibition against using familiar forms of address while on duty (i.e., first names). As for Savvik, it seems to me that calling her Mister is just the writer's way of making her stand apart from the rest of the crew. She is, after all, half Romulan. It adds to the mystique of her character. On a *totally* unrelated note: Am I missing something here? In all the discussions on the "Man Trap" episode, all you netters (netties?) have been referring to Lt. Green as a "redshirt," yet he wore gold (I just saw the episode last saturday). I take it you use this term to mean the obligatory "one-show-crewman-who-dies-so- Kirk-can-try-to-act-grieved-at-the-death-of-yet-another- crewman" (whew! what an adjective!) type, right? John Pisello University of Rochester Computing Center ARPA: jmpi%UR-TUT@SEISMO.ARPA BITNet: jmpi_ss@UORDBV.BITNET UUCP: jmpi@UR-TUT.UUCP US Mail: P.O. Box 28858 River Station Rochester, NY 14627 ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 87 20:14:41 GMT From: yale!sshefter@rutgers.edu (Bret A. Shefter) Subject: Re: "Mister" Saavik in Star Trek cs2633ba@izar.UUCP writes: >MFL1@LEHIGH.BITNET writes: >>Not to beat a dead horse but Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, and Janice Rand >>all hold a rank of Lt. Cdr. or above during the course of the four >>movies and none are called 'Mister.' >Give me a break. I've definitly heard 'Mr. Sulu' at least three >times In ST-I and II. Not to mention Mr. Chekov, also heard in STI, II, and IV, if memory serves (which it probably doesn't)... I gather this stemmed from STII, in which Saavik was called Mr. Saavik to emphasize that the Federation is so advanced that it considers everyone to be equal, and that Mister, like Doctor, has become gender-independent. Unfortunately, this falls through because, on the show, people *definitely* made a distinction. Also, Kirk calls people "mister" (by itself) when he's mad at them, sometimes, but only if they're male (I admit it would have sounded silly in *Spock's Brain* for Kirk to rush in and yell, "Okay, mister, where's my First Officer?" :) Still, it's an improvement over "Okay, sister..." :) :) :) I have no idea why they didn't simply call her "Lt. Saavik" (as I think she was), the way they called Lt. Uhura just that in the episodes. Or, when in doubt, how about "Commander"? Everyone seems to be a Commander nowadays, any- way...why not use it as the official title for someone of whose rank you are unsure (ugh! Would my English professor have a ball with that!)? Or, is Commander really a billet?... :) shefter-bret@yale.ARPA shefter@yalecs.BITNET ...!ihnp4!hsi!yale!shefter ...!{seismo,decvax}!yale!shefter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 87 09:34 EST From: (Kaile Goodman) Subject: Star Trek 4: the Universal Translator and the Humpback From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU > In ST4(Whales etc.), why the hell didn't they just use their >magic universal translator to interpret the probe's probing? ... >If the UT could be made to communicate with a gaseous cloud >("Metamorphosis") that didn't even appear to have *LANGUAGE*, >surely it could also be made to speak whalespeak (whalish? >whalese?). The Star Trek novel "The Tears of the Singers" by Melinda Snodgrass used the same premise. In this book the explanation was that the universal translator produced "gibberish" because parts of the Singers' "song" was ultrasonic, and not picked up by the translator. Early on in the book, Spock runs a tape of the song thru the computer and it comes up with three species which produced similar sounds. Among them was the "now extinct humpback whales of Earth". Kaile Goodman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Apr 87 09:10:23 -0700 From: Glenn Hyman Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #156 Did anyone ever stop to think that the reason the universal translator didn't work for one major reason. The probe wasn't talking to us, it was talking to the whales in every case the translators have been used the subjects were talking directly to the persons with the translators. Well?????????? FLAME ON!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Apr 87 13:00 EDT From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Intense stupidity on the part of television executives. Well, I've read the postings on Star Trek: The New Generation, and I must comment that it sounds like it is going to be intensely stupid! It seems typical of the Hollywood executive mentality, even though it is allegedly being produced in a freer environment. Consider: Can't you see the producers sitting around and saying "Well, the old enterprise was REAL BIG. We'll make the NEW Enterprise TWICE as big!" "Great concept! I say run with it!" That cast list reads like a who's who of stereotypes. An android named 'Data'? Give me a break! The enduring mystique of the original Star Trek was that it took some risks in terms of characterization and plot. The new series sounds like it's going to fall back on what is now formula. I have given up hope on Television for SF. Ater the gut-wrenching horror of shows like Battlestar Galactica and Buck Rogers, intelligent SF seems to have a snowball's chance in hell. Of course the occasional Lathe of Heaven or Max Headroom certainly give one hope...hope that is dashed when one reads the plot synopses for Star Trek: The New Generation. Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 87 18:38:47 GMT From: galloway@vaxa.isi.edu (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: Star Trek: The Next Generation (Not the gay discussion) A couple of extras bits about the info Rich posted on ST:TNG. These were obtained from an interview done by Harlan Ellison with David Gerrold and D.C. Fontana a month or so ago on his Mike Hodel's Hour 25 radio show. The captain's name is now Jean-Luc rather than Julian, and will be called Luke for short. He's not supposed to be that thrilled about kids in general. Gerrold's script will be dealing with the theme of "what do you do with an infected population". This was stated to be analogous to the current AIDS situation. Somewhat surprisingly to both myself (who phoned in the question) and to Harlan, neither Fontana or Gerrold were willing to reveal the names of any writers for the show over the air other than themselves. This attitude was attributed to both not wanting to disappoint writers/fans if a script got killed (Harlan made comments about finding this a bit incredulous), and probably more importantly (my interpretation), since most of these writers are based in LA where the show is broadcast, they didn't want them getting harassed by fans. tyg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 87 21:53:32 edt From: cd0v#@andrew.cmu.edu (Chris Durham) Subject: And The Children Shall Lead Ok here's one for you rationalizers: In the Star Trek Episode, "And the Children Shall Lead" when Kirk and the other series regulars still believe that they are orbiting Triacus, when in reality they are in deep space, Kirk orders two security officers to relieve the two that were down on Triacus. However, after "beaming down" the two security officers, they try to bring the other two aboard. Of course, they can't get them. It is at this time that they realize the Enterprise is no longer in orbit of Triacus. (Two red shirsts have just been beamed into a vacuum and hence are dead. (poor redshirts :-) ) At the end of the episode, after the Gorgon has been defeated, Kirk orders that the ship proceed to Starbase X (I forgot the number.) Kirk, being a responsible person, seems to have marooned two of his security officers on Triacus!!!! Chris Durham Arpa: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu BitNet: cd0v@cmuccvma usenet: ...!{seismo, harvard}!andrew.cmu.edu!cd0v ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 16:52:23 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: ST:TNG Special Effects Special effects for Star Trek:The Next Generation will be done by Industrial Light and Magic (ILM to you initial-lovin folks). The report comes from today's USA Today (4/21). This will be ILM's first television series work. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 05:28:37 GMT From: rochester!ritcv!jmg6805@RUTGERS.EDU (John M. Grabiec) Subject: Re: ST:TNG Special Effects I'm new to the system, and don't know if this has been said before, but here goes. I read in todays paper (USA today), that in the new series, and I quote, " ... the humans have made peace with the Klingons, who'll be part of the crew ..." The article also goes on to say that the Enterprise " ... will be roomier, allowing each crew member about 1500 square feet of living space..." These items were revealed by the co-supervising producer, Robert Justman in Los Angelos. ps. The series will premiere The weekend of Oct 3-4 with a two hour pilot. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 04:57:02 GMT From: ABC%PSUVMB.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Star Trek: The Next Generation (Not the gay discussion) rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) says: >CAPT. JULIAN PICARD -- A caucasian man in his 50's who is very > youthful and in prime physical condition. Born in Paris, his > gallic accent appears only when deep emotions are triggered. > He is definitely a 'romantic' and believes strongly in > concepts like honor and duty. Capt. Picard commands the > Enterprise. He should have a mid-Atlantic accent, and a > wonderfully rich speaking voice. >NUMBER ONE (AKA WILLIAM RYKER) -- A 30-35 year old caucasian born > in Alaska. He is a pleasant looking man with sex appeal, of > medium height, very agile and strong, a natural psychologist. > Number one, as he is usually called, is second-in-command of > the Enterprise and has a very strong, solid relationship with > the Captain. Both male, both white. Apparently one American and one French-American. >LT. COMMANDER DATA -- He is an android who has the appearance of a > man in his mid 30's. Data should have exotic features and can > be anyone of the following racial groups: Asian, American > Indian, East Indian, South American Indian or similar racial > groups. He is in perfect physical condition and should appear > very intelligent. Possibly Oriental in appearance, but not really human. >LT. TANYA YAR -- 26 year old woman of Ukranian decent who serves > as the starship's security chief. She is described as having > a new quality of conditioned-body-beauty, a fire in her eyes > and muscularly well developed and very female body, but > keeping in mind that much of her strength comes from attitude. > Macha has an almost obsessive devotion to protecting the ship > and its crew and treats Capt. Picard and Number One as if they > were saints. Nice of them to make her Ukranian instead of Russian. They got at least one good idea for the cast. But she's still from a place in what is now that self-important superpower, the Soviet Union. Or does "Ukranian descent" mean she isn't really from the Ukraine? If so, I just hope she isn't *yet another* American. >LT. DEANNA TROI -- An alien woman who is tall (5'8" - 6') and > slender, about 30 years old and quite beautiful. She serves > as the starship's Chief Psychologist. Deanna is probably > foreign (anywhere from Italian, Greek, Hungarian, Russian, > Icelandic, etc.) with looks and accent to match. She and > Number One are romantically involved. Her alien "look" is > still to be determined. "Foreign" means European or Latin-American; "exotic" means alien or android; "Oriental" is not in the available vocabulary, except to describe an "exotic"(qv) physical type; "African" is not a word. >WESLEY CRUSHER -- An appealing 15 year old caucasian boy (need > small 18 or almost 18 year old to play 15). His remarkable > mind and photographic memory make it seem not unlikely for him > to become, at 15, a Starfleet acting-ensign. Otherwise, he is > a normal teenager. > >BEVERLY CRUSHER -- Wesley's 35 year old mother. She serves as the > chief medical officer on the Enterprise. If it were not for > her intelligence, personality, beauty and the fact that she > has a natural walk of a striptease queen, Capt. Picard might > not have agreed to her request that Wesley observe bridge > activities; therefore letting her son's intelligence carry > events further. > >LT. GEORDI LaFORGE -- a 20-25 year old black man, blind from birth. > With the help of a special prosthetic device he wears, his > vision far surpasses anything the human eyes can see. > Although he is young, he is quite mature and is best friends > with Data. Please do not submit any 'street' types, as Geordi > has perfect diction and might even have a Jamaican accent. > Should also be able to do comedy well. Why state the obvious? What else are black actors normally *expected* to be able to do? And I can't help but notice that the Black is also the Handicapped Person, so he's two for the price of one. Raised "consciousness" ought to be accompanied by better sense. >The original Alexander Courage theme will be used, plans are to >still split the infinitive, but to change the last line to: "...to >boldly go where no ONE has gone before" Are aliens included in this category ("no one")? I hope not! Their vision may extend into outer space, but they seem to have blind spots big enough to pilot the new, doubly-large Enterprise through where our own planet and species are concerned. Now that I think of it, the captain and "Number One" are probably both male because older males can have more "sex appeal" than older females. Do they really think that it's necessary for their characters to walk like striptease "queens" in order to be liked by the audience? I hope that Dr. Crusher is at least permitted to appear in uniform! ;-) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 27 Apr 87 1031-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #180 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Apr 87 1031-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #180 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 180 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Apr 87 13:12:02 GMT From: ndd@duke.cs.duke.edu (Ned Danieley) Subject: Re: sources... ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes: > Just curious, but have the older Heinlein novels been forgotten? > I'm just curious to know if the older novels are being left out > in the shuffle with his newer ones... I was in one of the local chain bookstores recently, and they had a bunch of what appeared to be newly reprinted Heinlein novels, with different covers (at least from my collection). They had the Rolling Stones, Door into Summer, I Will Fear No Evil, Space Cadet, and several others. Ned Danieley ndd@duke ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 23:27:50 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) Here's a little essay that I found lying around in some old obscure pamphlet-thingy with no author and no copyright anywhere to be seen, so I am assuming it's okay to reprint it. It is, in my opinion, a logical, systemmatical, well documented criticism of Heinlein's _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_. I thought you out there in netlandia might be interested in seeing it, so I typed it in and up(?)loaded it, etc., etc. I pretty much agree with most of what this essay says. It seems to me that Heinlein is usually good at writing a very *interesting* story, but I often disagree with a lot of his underlying ideologies, attitudes, and treatment of certain subject matter (esp. his treatment of women, though this essay mentions nothing about that). It's been a while since I read this book, but the essay seems accurate from what I remember. I'd appreciate hearing what all you folks think about it's position and/or my position on this book or Heinlein in general. Hope you enjoy it, and let's try not to flame *too* much. Note that this posting is very low-key. People keep trying to suck me into flame wars recently (which it is not too hard to do, if I feel wronged). OK? ***** SPOILER ALERT -- SPOILER ALERT ***** Heinlein: Trapped in a Cage of his Own Design Author Robert Heinlein presents in his book The Moon is a Harsh Mistress a society which, presumably, is meant to be a Utopian ideal: a "rational anarchy." The reader is constantly told that Luna's (The Moon's) anarchy is much more civilized than the societies of barbaric Terra (Earth), which is dominated by large bureaucracies much like that of the United States on the real Earth of today. Luna's people are much happier in their freer exercise of will, and above all, Lunar society is virtually crimeless and extremely "polite." The book also urges the reader to reject authority. By demonstrating that, in fact, it is Luna that has the barbaric society and Terra that is civilized, and that the book is filled with other ideological contradictions as well, I will show that Heinlein has managed to discredit himself and is not to be trusted as the authority on the worlds in his own novel. Lunar society is not ruled in a civil manner -- it is an anarchy. Anarchy is the oldest and most primitive form human society can take, dating back to the emergence of the species. People on Luna fear their fellow man, because at the least provocation a person is likely to eliminate someone he does not like by throwing the offender out the nearest airlock, where said offender will involuntarily "breathe vacuum." There are many examples of this mentioned in the book (Stuart LaJoie (a close call): "'...you almost breathed vacuum tonight.'" (129); unnamed "pinhead," (159); Wright (implied): "Never saw Wright again." (278)). Heinlein praises the inherent "politeness" in such a society: "Tourists often remark on how polite everybody is in Luna -- with unstated comment that ex-prison shouldn't be so civilized," (17) but this politeness is only the product of the constant fear of their neighbors that people on Luna must live in. People stay polite to stay alive, since a person risks death in offending someone. Mannie, one of the main characters and also the narrator, comments on this with regards to a person who is rude to him: "I wondered about his life expectancy." (17) The implied penalty for rudeness is obvious. Luna is also virtually crimeless for the same reasons: "'...is no rape in Luna. None.... Children are safe here,'" claims Mannie. (131) Any offenders would be summarily disposed of via the nearest airlock. What makes this vigilante justice worse is that it is not necessarily those who have actually done something that most people would consider wrong who are eliminated. All too often the unlucky victim's only offense is being annoying to someone stronger than he. On page 275, Mannie says (concerning a man named Wright whom Mannie finds verbally tiring), "Get this yammerhead off my back!" By page 278, Wright has permanently disappeared. At one point, Mannie suggests that people with bad breath or body odor deserve to breathe vacuum too ("...some pompous choom proposed that bad breath and body odors be made an elimination offense. Could almost sympathize..." (161)), as well as all the yammerheads like Gospodin Wright: "Certain types of loudmouthism should be a capital offense among decent people." (159) Thus, on Luna there exists a kind of social "natural selection" (130) wherein the strong murder the weak, the death penalty may be enacted for halitosis and loudmouthism, and only the politest survive. "Could see no better way to improve breed," says Mannie. (159) Men who touch others' women are also subject to almost automatic elimination: "...their lady had been insulted, had to be done." (127) This can hardly be called a civilized society by anyone but Heinlein's standards. The bureaucracies of Terra, even though filled with so called "yammerheads," are infinitely more suited to bringing justice and safety to the average citizen. While Heinlein may not like the imposing governments of Earth (after which planet Moon's Terra is modeled), this does not make them any less civilized, nor does it give him the right to proclaim his fictitious Lunar anarchy, which is literally a study in barbarism, to be a civilized ideal. There also exists, in Lunar society, a tyrannical authority called, simply, "Lunar Authority." This is a Terra-based "government" of Luna whose nominal purpose is keeping order and arranging the shipment of Lunar-grown grain to Terra. In actuality, this Authority interferes not a bit with the inner workings of Lunar society so long as the grain quotas are fulfilled: "'...are no laws -- except Warden's [head of Lunar Authority] regulations -- and Warden doesn't care what one Loonie does to another.'" (132) It is nothing more than an organization for exacting tribute from the Lunar anarchy. It adds nothing in the way of order or justice to Luna, and a major portion of the action of the novel is devoted to the main characters' (successful) attempt to overthrow Authority and establish a pure "rational anarchy" as the ideal society. Here, Heinlein again leads himself down a path to his own destruction. Possibly the most blatant message the book has for the reader is one of rejection of authority. The Professor Bernardo de la Paz, another main character, says, "'I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.'" (65). However, Heinlein continually proselytizes about the merits of his "perfect" society through the main character of the professor. La Paz is Heinlein's spokesman throughout the book, an unquestioned authority to the other main characters. The above quotation is an example of his preaching, as is his statement, "'...parliamentary bodies...when they accomplished anything, owed it to a few strong men who dominated the rest,'" (162) another typical comment from this character. Note that even the professor contradicts himself, first lauding individual freedom and the rejection of authority, then advocating domination of the meek by the strong. It is not enough that Heinlein himself, as the author of the book and therefore also its most prominent authority, tells the reader to reject authority (thereby creating a paradox), but he also portrays the other main characters of the book blindly accepting the authority of the professor, who spouts contradictions himself. There are many other examples of Prof handing out political theories about rational anarchy to the other characters ("'...the most basic human right, the right to bargain in a free marketplace.'" (24) "'...there are only two things to do with an enemy: Kill him. Or make a friend of him.'" (148) "'...government is a dangerous servant and a terrible master.'" (240) "'...sometimes I think that government is an inescapable disease of human beings.'" (243)), and every time, the other characters and the reader are expected to accept them as infallible gospel. The characters do accept everything Prof says without a second thought. Hopefully, the reader will not. Being Heinlein's spokesman, Prof's self-contradictions constitute Heinlein's second indictment of himself as the final authority of the universe his book portrays. The third and perhaps most telling blow to his authority concerns the manner in which the main characters (in particular Mannie, the professor, and a self-aware computer named Mike, among others) undertake to overthrow the Lunar Authority. Having obediently accepted all of the professor's ravings about rational anarchy as the most civil and most desirable form of "government," and having determined that the only way to achieve a pure rational anarchy (and thus Utopia) on the moon is to overthrow Lunar Authority, the main characters proceed to set up an oligarchical tyranny of which they are the oligarchs. The oligarchs fund their revolution by stealing money via computer theft: "...eventually we did rob banks, firms, and Authority itself." (107) "Every bank, firm, shop, agency including Authority, for which Mike did accounting, was tapped for Party funds." (107) Presently they control the "free" press, as well as other modes of information dissemination: "Adam Selene [one of Mike's personalities] talked over video.... Papers quoted him and published stories of their own -- we had made special effort to recruit newsmen before coup." (159) Eventually, even Mannie, one of the oligarchs, is uncertain if even all of those in the original oligarchy still have any power. He even has suspicions that it may be Mike and Mike alone: "...or took that long for Mike to sell his plan while appearing to pull ideas out of rest of us," (231) or Mike and the professor together to the exclusion of all others: "Or was it Prof's plan with Adam Selene as salesman?" (231) In this manner, Heinlein has his characters implement a "pure anarchy" by establishing an oligarchy (or perhaps a one-computer dictatorship), which oligarchy makes it appear to the people of Luna, by controlling information flow, that they are enjoying individual freedom when in fact they are being herded like sheep to accomplish the desires of the ruling elite (namely the overthrow of Lunar Authority). This is pure contradiction on Heinlein's part, and makes it increasingly difficult for the reader to accept even his inherent authority as the author. Eventually, the main characters make a pretense of allowing the people of Luna to establish what form of government they will. However, the "heroes" (notably the professor) try their hardest to prevent this government from having any real power: "But Prof had a place for them [the "self-appointed political scientists" (159)]; each was invited to take part in 'Ad-Hoc Congress for Organization of Free Luna'..." (159) The professor allows this huge committee of "yammerheads" to debate over the decision of potential form of government because it is his belief that they, being only yammerheads, will never be able to reach a decision anyway, and anarchy will prevail. He says, "'...I was simply putting all my nuts in one basket. ...this Ad-Hoc Congress will do nothing...or if they pass something...it will be so loaded with contradictions that it will have to be thrown out. In the meantime they are out of our hair.'" (162) Prof even controls this committee, causing it to pass the Declaration of Independence that he wants by playing on people's fatigue: "'...late at night when they are very tired, they'll pass it by acclamation.'" (162) "He sprang it on them at end of long day..." (163) and by packing the committee with his supporters: "Begin to see that Prof had stacked deck. That Congress never had a fixed membership...." (165) Later, the professor and his cronies also hold elections, but these elections are fixed: "[Mike says to Mannie] 'Eighty-six percent of our candidates were successful -- approximately what I had expected.'[Mannie comments] ('Approximately,' my false left arm. Exactly what expected..." (229) After the professor's death, when the oligarchs finally do relinquish power, the former oligarch Mannie is infinitely disappointed when the "yammerheads" establish a government that is all too similar to those "barbaric" bureaucracies on Terra: "Prof should have kept closer eye on it [the yammerheads' committee]." (240) He even contemplates going out to the asteroids to try to regain his personal freedom (302). This reflects Heinlein's viewpoint that happiness has been lost because the anarchy has ended, but hopefully the reader will realize that the possibility of much greater happiness in the future has just been opened up. For once, people may not have to live in constant fear of their fellows. So in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Heinlein, the author and therefore the authority, asks the reader to reject authority, a contradiction in itself. He also asks the reader to swallow a pack of other contradictions, disguising tyranny and terror as freedom and happiness, and confusing barbaric and civilized societies. He thus erodes his own authority concerning the worlds he himself has created. The reader can resort logically to only one thing: the rejection of Heinlein's authority. He will not necessarily reject authority in general, but cannot accept Heinlein's authority specifically. Therefore, Heinlein is implicated, and any messages he might have tried to convey through the book are invalidated by his self-contradictions. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 18:27:00 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) I wasn't interested in criticism of the actual *essay*. That is, at this point (and given its source), entirely irrelevant. I am much more interested in finding out what people think about the actual *ideas* contained in the essay. Do people out there think that its attack on Heinlein is valid? Do they think the conclusions it draws are true? Let's not worry about the essay's *style*, instead concentrating on its *substance*. Is its criticism of the book justified. If not, why not. Etc. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 27 Apr 87 1044-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #181 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Apr 87 1044-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #181 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 181 Today's Topics: Television - Max Headroom (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 16:47:27 EDT From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (John White) Subject: More on Max Headroom ****** Once again, SPOILER WARNING for those who care ****** Max Headroom - The Series has shown 4 episodes so far. They seem to be bringing back in the things they took out of the original pilot, such as Big Time TV (seen in episode three), and what seems to be the cross- hatch generator in episode 4 (I haven't yet watched it - I taped it last night). BTW, a cross-hatch generator is the device that you used to see Max talking from in the older Coke comercials - you know, the one that the kid finds and straps to his bike and takes home? There really ain't no such animal (or so we were informed the last time the Max discussion went around on this discussion net). It was just a device that Boyce used to contain the program and data that generated Max Headroom in the original video. Also, the writers are bringing in some interesting ideas. One that made me sit up was the name of the head of Zik Zak Corp. Ever read the Schroedinger's Cat books by Robert Anton Wilson (?)? Remember Ped Xing? And, from the previews last week of this weeks program, they seem to be bringing in ICE, as in computer security (so named in Gibson's Neuromancer). (Side note: Did Gibson make up the term? I think that's where I first (and only, so far) saw it used.) I can see why the network would try to soften up and unconfuse Max for the American audience, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. If that's why Max is so different, then I think that stinks. I like Max, both this way, and the original way (sorta like Coke). But if the producers thought they HAD to tone the weirdness down, then I wonder if the series can last. I hope it does. jl ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 00:44:20 GMT From: dm3h#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dennis Moul) Subject: Origin of "ICE" as a term for computer security WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET (John White) asks: > And, from the previews last week of this weeks program, they >seem to be bringing in ICE, as in computer security (so named in >Gibson's Neuromancer). (Side note: Did Gibson make up the term? I >think that's where I first (and only, so far) saw it used.) I'm sure the term originated considerably before _Neuromancer_. I recall a story about "black ICE" (security that kills intruders by backfeeding massive electrical shocks through the keyboard) in an old ('78-'80?) Fantasy & Science Fiction (F&SF) or Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine (IASFM). I don't recall exactly what ICE stands for, though. Intelligent Countermeasures Electronics, perhaps? On the subject of SF magazine stories, does anyone have a database of story names, authors, titles, keywords, etc.? I often find that I can recall a word or phrase from a story I read a couple years ago, and would like to find it again. However, the prospect of hunting through my 250 back issues of F&SF and IASFM is sufficiently daunting for me not to bother. If I had a database of keywords from the stories, matched with issue numbers, I could find any given story quickly. More than once I've almost started such a project, but I don't have the energy to reread all 250 back issues (at 1 a week, it would take almost 5 years!) If anyone has such a database, or is interested in developing one, let me know. My collection is mostly from 1977-present, so I'd like to concentrate on that area. Dennis Moul ARPA & BITNET: dm3h#@andrew.cmu.edu UUCP: ...!{seismo, ucbvax, harvard@}!andrew.cmu.edu!dm3h ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 22 Apr 1987 22:01-EST From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #170 >What is a cross-hatch generator? A cross-hatch generator is a little gizmo (that's tech talk for anything that costs under $10,000) that puts a series of diagonal and horizontal lines on a TV screen at a regular spacing. It is used to make sure that a monitor is displaying the proper picture without distortion from edge to edge. Some things that cause this not to happen are gaussing (which resulted in the degauss switch) and old/tired internal magnets. They are also used to align the beams of a project TV system. It is rare to find one all by itself these days, they are usually packaged a color bar generator and a test pattern generator for a couple of hundred dollars (and since the package will fit in your hand, I don't understand how anyone could mistake it for the pile of hardware used to create Max) James Turner ARPA: ringwld!jmturn@CCA.CCA.COM UUCP: {decvaxd|!sri-unix|ima|linus}cca!ringwld!jmturn MAIL: 329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 13:13:36 EDT From: FULIGIN%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Peter E. Lee) Subject: Max Headroom I have seen both the original (British) pilot and the American series. I was quite impressed with how closely they followed the original in terms of both plot and feel - both of which are above the intensity/complexity of the average American TV show. The main changes that were made were those needed to make the show into an on-going series - They allow Max to meet Edison, put Max in the network XXIII computer where he can run around and be active, rather than being confined to a box in a van at a small independent station, and they make Bryce a protagonist to fill out the regular cast. They also simplify one or two minor elements for the "Average American Viewer," but I was not at all disappointed with the result - It's miles above the average US TV mush. I was a little disappointed with the most recent episode though, in which Edison investigates a world-wide security firm. Although it still had some distinctive elements that made it well worth spending an hour in front of the TV, the show lacked the 'umph' of the pilot and had much less going on. It seems that they are moving uncomfortably close to becoming just another 'sci-fi action adventure show' (note the derogatory use of 'sci-fi,' if you must). They also committed the cardinal sin of including an 'artificially intelligent' mainframe that burned and threw sparks when faced with a logical/emotional dilemma. But, even at the level of the last episode it has several things to recommend it - Max, the willingness to explore 'hot' topics (the ramifications of a centralized security agency with access to critical information, our reliance on technology, the attitudes of the rich and powerful to the not-so-rich-and-powerful...), and, as another poster mentioned, an overall 'Brazil'-esque quality previously not seen in a network TV show among others. So, in short, I'd say it's well worth watching but not quite 'brilliant.' Peter E. Lee Fuligin%UMass.bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 23 Apr 1987 12:40:38-PDT From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Max Headroom Television Seriew I've been enjoying the new Max Headroom show on network television, called "20 Minutes Into the Future." I have not seen any messages about it in this newsletter, so I guess I'll break the ice. The network has shown three episodes of this new television series so far, on Tuesday nights at 10:00 in the Boston area. It's based on the BBC pilot "Max Headroom" which was an interesting science fiction movie about a new advertising gimmick and the television news reporter who discovers that the new ads have an unfortunate side-effect on couch potatoes. In the process of escaping from the advertising executives, the reporter (Edison Carter) is captured and translated into a computer program. Thus the creation of Max Headroom, a character well-known for his Coca-Cola commercials. Some people find Max insufferably trite. Others (like myself) are amused at his irreverent attitude. That's the background behind the television series. The TV show is very true to the original pilot. Edison Carter is played by Matt Frewer. His lovely cohort is the same actress as in the pilot, as well as several other characters. Forgive me, I tend to forget names. The plot for the television show includes Edison's investigations into other news stories. He reminds me of Geraldo Rivera -- persisent in his quest for the truth, dedicated to exposing the dirt underneath the glitter of television news. Max Headroom himself appears infrequently, but sometimes has a critical part in the plot. The latest show (April 21) had an interesting plot twist based on the resemblance between Edison Carter and Max Headroom. It's hysterical to see Edison talking to Max. (The original pilot didn't get that far.) The show has great special effects, and a surprisingly good script. The pacing is very fast, for a television show. You really have to watch it to get the story. Many small details make this show futuristic. If you look for it, there is some social commentary, too. Remember, though, that this is TELEVISION, and therefore, the "hard science fiction" is glossed over. I heartily recommend this show for science fiction lovers, and warn all you couch potatoes that Max Headroom is a cut above your usual Pablum television fare. Comments from any other viewers? (Flames and personal vindictives will all be flushed. I want to generate a discussion here in SF-LOVERS only.) Mary ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 03:36:19 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Origin of "ICE" as a term for computer security WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET (John White) asks: > And, from the previews last week of this weeks program, they >seem to be bringing in ICE, as in computer security (so named in >Gibson's Neuromancer). (Side note: Did Gibson make up the term? I >think that's where I first (and only, so far) saw it used.) It probably doesn't correspond, but back in 1971, ICE meant Industrial Computer Enclosure according to DEC. One the other hand, ICE has been crime-speak for kill, silence, imprison for a lot longer... George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 21:48:28 GMT From: motown!bunker!hjg@RUTGERS.EDU (Harry J. Gross) Subject: Re: Origin of "ICE" as a term for computer security grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET (John White) asks: >> And, from the previews last week of this weeks program, they >>seem to be bringing in ICE, as in computer security (so named in >>Gibson's Neuromancer). (Side note: Did Gibson make up the term? >>I think that's where I first (and only, so far) saw it used.) > >It probably doesn't correspond, but back in 1971, ICE meant >Industrial Computer Enclosure according to DEC. One the other >hand, ICE has been crime-speak for kill, silence, imprison for a >lot longer... Of course, for those of you into computer hardware debugging (ugh!) it means In-Circuit Emulator. Harry Gross ..!bunker!hjg ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 21:59:03 GMT From: rochester!kodak!sprankle@RUTGERS.EDU (Daniel R. Lance) Subject: Re: Max Headroom - review ronc@cerebus.UUCP (sysadm) writes: >maslak@sri-unix.UUCP (Valerie Maslak) writes: >>The Max Headroom show reminded me a little of a low-budget BRAZIL. >>Entertaining. Not miraculously so, but entertaining. Certainly >>beats most of the schlock out there... >Most especially, considering the medium we're talking about here. I agree. The plots are somewhat predictable, and Boyce is a stereotypical cross between a 15 year old hacker and a mad scientist, but that's nothing compared to most of the plots TV writers come up with. :-) >There are a few things that bother me about Max (the show, not the >personality). The idea that "truth will out", that if you can go >public with whatever dark secret you dredge up and that somehow >solves the problem, seems a bit simplistic to me. But the big >problem I have is that the show builds up a nasty picture of >corporate America, then shows our hero making one concession after >another to one of the shadier corporations (channel XXIII). A good >point was made in the last show, that Edison must play ball with >the company if he is going to continue to use the facilities to >help people, but still. What is being said here? Journalists are often faced with a similar problem--at least I was when I used to work as an editor for my college newspaper: Many of those who publish newspapers--or produce TV newscasts--are driven, if not by a profit motive, at least by the desire to have the largest circulation possible. It is common to have a conflict of interest between the desire to publish the truth and the desire to publish that which one's readers or listeners want. Part of any system of professional ethics must be to provide a code for dealing with situations where the professional's employer want's him or her to do something unethical. I don't think that the right soultion is to simply say "Well, the person involved should quit", because the employer will probably find someone else to commit the act. Edison is trying to make the best of a bad situation. I think the show is trying to satirize our attitudes towards TV and its effects on our lifestyle (especially in the pilot.) While corporate America is also satirized, I think that stems from the fact that TV is mainly controlled by large networks. >I'm also uncomfortable about the show's continual use of >sophisticated tracking and monitoring equipment. Sure, it's always >used for good within that particular plot, but I do not think that >facilities like that are something we the proles should get used >to. Agreed. And with continued improvements in data-processing and telecommunications technology it is only getting worse. Perhaps we need to develop the field of "information ethics" in the same way that we have developed engineering ethics, medical ethics, and other fields. Note that as engineering and medicine have improved, the importance of ethical behavior in these fields has increased. >This is less coherent than I had intended. Am I making sense? >Does anyone else have thoughts on this? Would anyone like to discuss similarities between the series and other science fiction movies or series from the past? The pilot seemed to borrow much of its atmosphere from *Blade Runner*--lots of dark, rain, neon and grime--and the second episode reminds me of the sport of *Rollerball* in its infancy. >All in all, I think Max Headroom is one of the better shows on TV >right now. But there are these nagging doubts... Daniel R. Lance Eastman Kodak Company: sprankle@kodak.uucp Purdue University EE: lanced@ei.ecn.purdue.edu ...{decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!lanced ...{harvard,seismo}!rochester!kodak!sprankle ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 04:41:48 GMT From: c60a-4gd@tart7.berkeley.edu (Stephan Zielinski) Subject: Re: Max Headroom - review Re the filming style: I have heard it called "film noire" (or some such spelling.) It is common in movies about a (dark) future- "1984," "The Terminator," "Brazil," etc. Minor gripes: we CS people dislike the technical glitches in the treatment of Max, but then we gripe about the color of phaser shots, too. Also, it looks like Max is going to moralize about The Shows Theme at the end of each episode. Finally, E. Carter depends too much on a small number of contacts- an aging punker and a rickshaw driver with Lennon glasses. (So if I hate it so much, why do I watch it..? Just being picky.) The ads shown on the show are interesting: most use the same night shots, etc. that the show itself does. "Lazer Tag" is the canonical example... Any comments on the relation of the resurgence of war toys and the "Max Headroom" genre? Stephan Zielinski UUCP: ucbvax!miro!stephan ARPA: stephan@miro.Berkeley.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 28 Apr 87 0848-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #182 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Apr 87 0848-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #182 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 28 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 182 Today's Topics: Books - Attanasio & Brin (3 msgs) & Martin & Niven & Story Request & Reading Short Stories (2 msgs) & Juvenile SF (2 msgs) & References & Request Answer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Apr 87 16:27:58 GMT From: rabbit1!dml@RUTGERS.EDU (David Langdon) Subject: Re: Solaris, Wishsong, Radix ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer) says: >Has *anyone* out there besides me (and Jeff Horvath) read >A.A.Attanasio's awesome work _Radix_? (Bantam-Spectra paper, used >to be a great big thick hardcover). This may be the best book of >the 80's, and no one's read it?!? I have read Radix and his other book (somthing like "Arc of the Rainbow"???) and enjoyed both of them thoroughly. I picked up Radix when it first came out (in trade!!). Just as a warning to would be readers, Attanasio tends to get very technical and theoretical about his characters and things that happen (as some would expect in hard science fiction). If you enjoy good hard science fiction, pick up both of his books David Langdon Rabbit Software Corp. (215) 647-0440 7 Great Valley Parkway East Malvern PA 19355 ...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml ...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 11:23:37 PDT (Thursday) From: Cate3.PA@xerox.com Subject: Uplift War & Tipper's next book The last I heard, David Brin's "Uplift War" was suppose to be out this month. Has anyone seen it? What is the status, should it hit the stands soon? Thanks in advance. Have a good day. Henry III cate3.pa@xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 16:08:56 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Uplift War & Tipper's next book > The last I heard, David Brin's "Uplift War" was suppose to be >out this month. Has anyone seen it? What is the status, should it >hit the stands soon? The Phantasia Press edition (limited hardcover) is out now. the Bantam paperback is not scheduled until August. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 09:38:34 PDT (Monday) From: Cate3.PA@xerox.com Subject: The Uplift War Cc: faknabe@phoenix.princeton.edu Picked up a copy of 'The Uplift War' by David Brin last friday afternoon. Finished it Saturday. The bottom line is if you enjoyed 'Sundiver' or 'Startide Rising', you'll enjoy this. If you haven't read the first two, get them, they are good. Don't really need to read them to enjoy 'The Uplift War'. 'The Uplift War' is a big book, just over 500 pages. David Brin uses the same format as 'Startide Rising', of poping from character viewpoint to character viewpoint. This book is not a sequel to 'Startide Rising', so much as a story which starts about the same time at 'Startide Rising', maybe even before, then ends about a year later. The story flows very nicely. Had trouble putting it down. The first edition is less than 4000 copies. It is hardcover. Don't know when the next edition is planned. Miner Spoiler, not much more than the inside of the cover... The story takes place on one of the colony planets, Garth, Earth has been able to get. An alien race, Gubu, decides to capture the planet and hold the humans as hostages to force Earth to share the knowledge the 'Streaker' found in 'Startide Rising'. Unfortunatly Earth doesn't have any data. The Gubu capture just humans. The Chims, chimpaanzees, are a young race, only sapient for a couple hundred years, no threat. Ha! One human, a few aliens, and the chims cause lots of trouble. Had a problem with the story. I was expecting some resolution to the 'Streaker' discoveries. This isn't really about a war, just a couple battles on an unimportant planet. Kind of neat how the bad guys are fooled, but the tittle is misleading. Was expecting to see the future atleast five or ten years from the time of 'Startide Rising'. Over all the book is good. Now, does anyone know when the next book in the Uplift universe will be out? Have a good day. Henry III cate3.pa@xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 00:48:06 GMT From: seismo!sun!coraki!navajo!bothner@RUTGERS.EDU (Per Bothner) Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin query Mike Caplinger asks which George R.R Martin story has "Kenny with his monkey." It is "The Monkey Treatment," which can be found in Gardner Dozois' first annual year's best collection (the brick-sized trade paperbacks, of which three have been published so far). Kenny is seriously overweight, and the "treatment" is a way to lose weight - but a rather unpleasant one. The story may be Politically Incorrect in assuming that fat men cannot attract women (Martin chivalrously ignores the possibility of fat women). Apart from that minor nit, it's a hilarious story: A paean to the joy of food. bothner@pescadero.stanford.edu ...!decwrl!labrea!navajo!bothner Computer Science Dept. Stanford University Stanford CA 94305 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 22:07:51 GMT From: rochester!kodak!sprankle@RUTGERS.EDU (Daniel R. Lance) Subject: Re: Funny SF dlleigh@media-lab.UUCP (Darren L. Leigh) writes: >I remember reading a short story by Larry Niven that had a really >funny ending. It was called "Converging Series" and was about a >college student who decides to "raise the devil" for a class >project. Its name is "Convergent Series" and can be found in the anthology of the same name. I recommend it highly. Daniel R. Lance Eastman Kodak Company: sprankle@kodak.uucp Purdue University EE: lanced@ei.ecn.purdue.edu ...{decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!lanced ...{harvard,seismo}!rochester!kodak!sprankle ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 03:07:30 GMT From: sds@meccsd.mecc.mn.org (Steven D. Splinter) Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by On a slightly differnt subject, A good short story on evolving robots, and the dangers therof is "The Crabs take over the Island" (or something like that), by I can't recall who. It concerns an island (surprise) where a number of small crab-like robots that can duplicate themselves are released to compete for the available resources. A very good short story. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 10:01:42 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Short Story Reading Since we've had some discussion recently, recommending specific short stories, I thought it might be appropriate to bring up some questions I have long wondered about regarding short stories in general, and books of short-story collections in specific: 1. How do you read a book of short stories? Do you open it to page "i", read the intro or preface, and then read each story in the book in the order they are printed? I tend to read the contents page first and then skip around within the book, usually reading the shortest items first and working up to the longer ones. Sometimes I will read a preface or explanatory introduction first, and, if it describes the stores (as some anthologies do), read the stories whose descriptions caught my interest the most. If there are editor's or anthologizer's notes by each story, like Ellison did in the "Dangerous Visions" books, sometimes I will read all of those notes before reading any stories. Anyone else do this? 2. Since I do the above, I have sometimes wondered if I am losing something in not following the sequence laid down by the author or editor. Do {some, many, most, all, none of the} collections of short stories by a single author have some grand design or specific plan of the sequence of stories, designed to create an effect, precipitate swings of mood, or otherwise affect the reader based on the order in which he/she reads the stories? Some collections are clear in that the contents are arranged chronologically over an author's career, or they follow some chronology in the fictional universe they describe. But what about collections with no such connection or sequencing, where each story is totally independent? Somebody must have made some decision at some time to determine which comes first, which next, etc. Who does this? An editor, someone at the publishing house not even given the status and title of "editor", or the author? 3. What about anthologies, as opposed to collections? [I distinguish here between "collection" being a group of stories all by the same author and "anthology" being a compilation of stories by many authors, brought together into one book, based on some criteria, by an editor.] Does the sequencing of stories in most anthologies have real import, or does it tend to be that the ones written by the editor's closest friends appear earliest, or the one that arrived (or got legal clearance) first gets in first, or what? [I expect this varies quite a bit, and maybe that the better editors have some overall plan into which they fit and select the stories, while poorer editors just string them together with no rhyme nor reason. But I am guessing here.] Do writers care about where in an anthology their work appears? (For example, do they ever specify in selling the reprint rights that "this story must appear first [or last] in the anthology for which these rights are being sold" or some such legalese?) (Is first best, or is last best, in terms of status, by the way?) Comments solicited. Regards, Will Martin wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA (on USENET try ...!seismo!wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA ) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 19:50:47 GMT From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea) Subject: Re: Short Story Reading wmartin@almsa-1.arpa writes: >Since we've had some discussion recently, recommending specific >short stories, I thought it might be appropriate to bring up some >questions I have long wondered about regarding short stories in >general, and books of short-story collections in specific: > >1. How do you read a book of short stories? Do you open it to page >"i", read the intro or preface, and then read each story in the >book in the order they are printed? Usually, yes. I usually like reading prefaces and introductions, and will occasionally read all the story introductions before starting on the stories themselves (Asimov's "Hugo Winners" volumes usually get this treatment). But most of the time I just read strait through. As to whether there is some plan to collections/anthologies, usually the answer seems to be yes, but only in a broad sense of picking a strong story for the beginning (grab the reader), putting a good, meaty story toward the center (keep him interested), and keeping the most impressive, flashiest story for last (end with a bang). Some collections (e.g., Wolfe's "Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and other stories") alternate shorter and longer stories, especially if the longer stories are novellas. On a related point, if the stories you are reading fit together in some way as a series, then it may make sense to give more thought to the sequence in which they ought to be read. In some cases, this may not be the sequence in which they are printed. Delany, for example, has argued in an article called "The Non-Abelian Series" that Asimov's Foundation stories should be read in the order they were written, rather than in the order Asimov chose to use in the "Foundation" book (basically, he argues that the first story in the book, which was written for the book, in the 50's, should be read last). He makes the same point about Disch's "334". As far as I know, writers have no say about the position of their stories in anthologies. Anybody really know?? Fernando Q. Gouvea Department of Mathematics 1 Oxford Street Cambridge, MA 02138 gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA gouvea@harvma1.BITNET ...!harvard!huma1!gouvea ------------------------------ Date: Fri 24 Apr 87 10:24:40-EST From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA Subject: Juvenile SF (The Good, the Bad, & the Ages) I know that juvenile F & SF has been discussed on this net before, but I'd like to know if anyone has compiled a list of these stories categorized by 1) applicable age groups or, 2) "best", "good", and "avoid if possible". What I would like to have, if it exists, is a recommended list of kids stories, broken down by the appropriate age group (knowing this varies among individuals), such as "ages 10-12, 12-14, 14-16, and 16 & up". Maybe that last group is just adult fiction. As anyone with 'tweenage' kids knows, the difference between what a 10 year old and a 14 year old understands and enjoys is considerable. Also, an experienced recommendation is helpful because most kids left on their own will purchase books "by the cover" only. If they don't like what they see, they won't touch it. Anything bought for them, however, is usually digested readily. If anyone has such a list, please post or e-mail to me. If you have specific recommendations or info, send to me and I'll summarize what I get if there's enough response. I would really be interested in the "don't waste the $2.95 for it" category, since nothing turns a kid off faster than having an adult buy him/her something that really smells. Confidence drops to zero and takes a long time to restore. Also, plot summaries with recommmendations would be helpful. Thanks. dingman@radc-20.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 87 18:02:34 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Juvenile SF (The Good, the Bad, & the Ages) > What I would like to have, if it exists, is a recommended list >of kids stories, broken down by the appropriate age group (knowing >this varies among individuals), such as "ages 10-12, 12-14, 14-16, >and 16 & up". As a partial answer, here are some of the books I reread over and over when *I* was 12-14: The Ultimate Weapon, by John Campbell Anton York, Immortal, by Eando Binder anything by Edgar Rice Burroughs, preferably taking series in order Slan, by AE Van Vogt Twin Planets, by Philip E High When/After Worlds Collide, by Philip Wylie and Edwin Balmer (sp?) Spacehounds of IPC, by E. E. Smith Citizen of the Galaxy, by Robert A. Heinlein I'd say this is a good age for Space Opera. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 17:49:52 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: Re: Lankemarr Those Lands... 'Lankhmar' is the locale for many of Fritz Lieber's stories of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, which I think are very funny. It is modelled after the traditional cosmopolitan, boistrous trading entrepot, and in particular on Hellenistic Alexandria. 'Lemuria' is probably a reference to Lin Carter's stories about Thongor of Lemuria, which in turn are lifted about 80% from the Puranas. The name also occurs in the Atlantis/Theosophy tradition, as another sunken continent; Spence's The Problem of Lemuria is the most accessible work within that tradition. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 21:34:09 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Funny juvenile story request From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA > Anyway, I remember a story called "Sam (somebody) on the Planet > Framingham(?)". I'd like to know the author's name so I could get > a copy to 1) reread and see if it is still funny and 2) if so, > give it to my son to get him off the Atari for five minutes. The book you're looking for is SAM WESKIT ON THE PLANET FRAMINGHAM by William Johnston, published by Tempo Books (paperback) in 1970. Johnston is mostly known for novels based on various tv series. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 28 Apr 87 0910-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #183 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Apr 87 0910-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #183 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 28 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 183 Today's Topics: Films - Japanimation (4 msgs) & Filmed in Space (6 msgs) & Solaris (2 msgs) & Silent Running (3 msgs) & Little Shop of Horrors (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 87 14:17:54 GMT From: ccastkv@gitpyr.gatech.edu (Keith Vaglienti) Subject: Re: Some Japanimation Questions. jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes: >sds5044@ritcv.UUCP () writes: >>Here are some questions: >>1. Is there a sequel to the movie SUMMER MACROSS 84 ? > What is "Summer Macross 84?" I've heard of "Megazone 2-3" >and "Robotech--The Movie" and "Battleiod", but nothing under >this name. "Summer Macross 84" is a Japanimation film released, obviously enough, in the summer of '84. It is basically a 2 hour version of the Macross series. Some parts of it have, however, been drastically cut or altered due to time considerations. After all, Macross in its entirety probably runs 15-20 hours. I believe this film is also referred to as "Macross Summer Love." >>2. Does anybody know about the GEMMA WARS video? > What is "Gemma Wars"? "Gemma Wars" is another Japanamation film. I'm not too sure what its about, having never seen it myself, but I'm sure it can be found at various SF conventions around the country. >>3. Are there any good Japanimation books out now. > > I haven't found anything aside from the Robotech books. There are imported Japanimation books which are basically comic books made from the films. These can usually be found at specialty shops that carry this kind of material and sometimes in comic shops. Keith Vaglienti Georgia Insitute of Technology Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 01:50:06 GMT From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) Subject: Re: Some Japanimation Questions. pxd3563@ritcv.UUCP (Patrick A. Deupree) writes: > 2. I don't know about "Gemma Wars" but I have heard of a movie > called "Gemma Tyson"(sp?). I think it was about a bunch of people > with psychic powers (mostly telekenises), that have to battle some > evil guy with really nasty psychic powers. I believe this was > "Gemma Tyson" but I may have my titles mixed up. It was a while > ago that I saw it. Well, I remember seeing a Japanimation movie called Genma Taisen, and it seems like that one that you're talking about is it. "Genma" in Japanese means something like "source of evil" or "core of evil". "Taisen" means "a huge war." It looked pretty good from the advertisemnts since the animation seemed pretty good. Alas, as I watched it, the plot was plodding and the ending was a bit anti-climactic. I think the story could've been done more consicely (without losing much of what it tried to accomplish) in an hour or less. Now, if I remember correctly, there was a comic book series in Japan quite a while back that was titled Genma Taisen. They had the same sort of animation looks so I think the movie was based on this comic book series (as is usual with a lot of Japanimation movies - witness "Urusei Yatsura"). Eiji Hirai USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081 phone: (215)328-8449 (this phone is till May '87) UUCP: {seismo,ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai ARPA: bpa!swatsun!hirai@seismo.css.gov ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 09:27:14 GMT From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) Subject: Re: Japanese Manga in America (was Re: Some Japanimation Subject: Questions.) sadoyama@miro.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Sadoyama) writes: > Plot synopses: > _Area 88_ World War II fighter pilots in North Africa. Well, the animation movie called _Area_88_ in Japan a couple of years ago was devoted to a young fighter pilot near our time (not WWII). He get's involved in a conflict in the Middle East, if my memory serves me right. The fact that he was piloting a jet fighter and the fact that this involves a Middle East conflict sort of says that this couldn't be WWII. However, this might not be the plot for the comics. This is the plot for the movie, or a fraction of which I was able to garner from the ads and promo's in Tokyo. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Eiji Hirai USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081 phone: (215)328-8449 (this phone is till May '87) UUCP: {seismo,ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai ARPA: bpa!swatsun!hirai@seismo.css.gov ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 20:31:13 GMT From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!aplvax!mae@RUTGERS.EDU (Mary Anne From: Espenshade) Subject: Area 88 hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai) writes: >sadoyama@miro.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Sadoyama) writes: >> Plot synopses: >> _Area 88_ World War II fighter pilots in North Africa. > >Well, the animation movie called _Area_88_ in Japan a couple of >years ago was devoted to a young fighter pilot near our time (not >WWII). > . . . However, this might not be the plot for the comics. This >is the plot for the movie, or a fraction of which I was able to >garner from the ads and promo's in Tokyo. Please correct me if I'm >wrong. A.G. is right, or at least closer, about Area 88. The manga has been adapted as an O.V.A. (Original Video Animation), a form common in Japan recently, but relatively unknown here. There are 3 or 4 parts available so far. O.V.A.s are serials or one-shot videos of varying length made specifically for video store release rather than theatrical release or tv. The parts of Area 88 are 45 minutes - 1 hour long, I've seen 1 and 3. Some friends who have the manga say the story does diverge in the video after a while but it is set in the present day or near future Middle East. I'll be interested in seeing the English translation, I'm not too clear on the plot. Some other good anime videos to watch for are: Firetripper time-travel fantasy Vampire Hunter 'D' sf/horror Angel's Egg sf/surreal Megazone 23 sf serial, 2 parts so far Windaria sf tragedy Project A-ko sf comedy (very funny), may be serial California Crisis sf (ufo contact?) Amon Saga fantasy Mary Anne Espenshade {allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplcen!aplvax!mae mae@aplvax.jhuapl.edu mae@aplvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 23:33:05 GMT From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!mirth@RUTGERS.EDU (The Reedmage) Subject: Re: Filmed in Space daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >>From: cel@CitHex.Caltech.Edu (Chuck Lane) >>How about DARK STAR? After all, how many movies have you seen that >>have a line in the credits: >> "Filmed on location in space" :-) >I think "Filmed on location, in space" was in _Hardware Wars_, not >_Dark Star_. Maybe it was in both of them. Actually, I don't remember it from _Dark Star_, which I have seen several times. The movie I KNOW was filmed on location in space, and said so in the opening credits, is _The Dream is Alive_, the IMAX shuttle film, which the astronauts themselves filmed on three flights of various shuttles. The screen is 5 stories high, and the only IMAX theaters I know of are at the Air & Space Museum in D.C., and a similar museum in San Francisco. I believe there are one or two more. Any SF lover who has a chance to see this film, DO IT. You'll really feel as if you were on the shuttle yourself -- as much as you can without actually Going. I saw it twice before the Challenger explosion, and once after. I recommend before more than after (time machine? :-)), but it's still beautiful, and rather poignant now. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 21:55:08 GMT From: motown!bunker!hjg@RUTGERS.EDU (Harry J. Gross) Subject: IMAX mirth@reed.UUCP (The Reedmage) writes: >The movie I KNOW was filmed on location in space, and said so in >the opening credits, is _The Dream is Alive_, the IMAX shuttle >film, which the astronauts themselves filmed on three flights of >various shuttles. > >The screen is 5 stories high, and the only IMAX theaters I know of >are at the Air & Space Museum in D.C., and a similar museum in San >Francisco. I believe there are one or two more. There is one located in the American Museum of Natural History in NYC. They call it the NatureMax Theatre. I have seen the film "To Fly" there, and it is quite an experience. I believe the program changes from time to time, so a call to the museum is in order, if you are interested. The phone number is (212) 496-0900. Harry Gross ..!bunker!hjg ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 10:31:59 GMT From: sjc@arthur.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin) Subject: Re: IMAX mirth@reed.UUCP (The Reedmage) writes: > The screen is 5 stories high, and the only IMAX theaters I know of > are at the Air & Space Museum in D.C., and a similar museum in San > Francisco. I believe there are one or two more. Any SF lover who There is also an IMAX screen at Cedar Point amusement park in Sandusky, Ohio Steve Chapin ARPA: sjc@gwen.cs.purdue.edu UUCP: ...!purdue!sjc ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 15:56:39 GMT From: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@RUTGERS.EDU (Karen L. Black) Subject: Re: IMAX There is an IMAX theater at Great America in Santa Clara (or at least there was one two years ago). I agree. The film is impressive. Karen Black c/o Robert Plamondon UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 00:23:19 GMT From: ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (ROBERT LEONE) Subject: IMAX IN SPACE The IMAX film "The Dream is Alive" was filmed by the astronauts in space using 70mm film cameras. Yes, they are big and bulky, but they didn't have to carry them around during liftoff. If some lesser sized high quality format was used for some shots, I wouldn't be surprised, but you'd have to show me that film first.... I thought they explained all this in the film. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 87 05:42:00 GMT From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Subject: Filmed on location in Outer Space I'm surprised no one has mentioned this before: MOONRAKER, as in James Bond, lists Outer Space in its location credits. Matthew P Wiener Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 87 00:12:50 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Solaris, Wishsong, Radix Is this movie, _Solaris_, that everyone keeps raving about (and of which I had never heard of before) any relation to Stanislaw Lem's novel _Solaris_? ..sunybcs!ugcherk ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 87 23:39:21 GMT From: hplabs!mcnc!rti-sel!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Solaris, Wishsong, Radix ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: >Is this movie, _Solaris_, that everyone keeps raving about (and of >which I had never heard of before) any relation to Stanislaw Lem's >novel _Solaris_? Yes. It was directed by Soviet director Tarkovsky (Ivan??) back in the early '70s. I feel it's one of the all-time best adaptations of an SF novel for the silver screen. A warning: it's VERY long and has a tendency to plod. But it has some very nice, unexpected touches: a couple embrace in a very 19th-century library or dining room or something as the Solaris station momentarily loses gravity and they float slowly through the room, along with books and a candelabra. The scene where the protagonist's wife drinks LOX is well done, and the ending is a real MIND BLOWER (I won't spoil it for those of you who haven't seen the movie). Tarkovsky then went on to direct another SF film which I haven't seen; it's something about an alien visitation in mother Russia with the aliens leaving something behind that alters mutation rates (I think). It has a short title which I can't for the life of me remember. Has anyone seen this film? It got some good reviews. By the way, Tarkovsky died recently. Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Apr 87 08:44 CDT From: "Ken @343-7588" <"NGSTL1::KWOOD%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET> Subject: Silent Running I could have sworn that Douglas Trumball, fresh from his sucess in doing special effects for 2001, produced "Silent Running." So I don't think it predates 2001, but it was a good film. How about Krull - I know it wasn't the greatest, but it was entertaining... ken wood ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 03:09:34 GMT From: moss!mhuxu!davec@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Caswell) Subject: Question about _Silent Running_ If anyone knows who produced, directed, worked on, etc. Silent Running, I'd really appreciate it if you would mail said info to me. Thanks, Dave Caswell {allegra|ihnp4|...}!mhuxu!davec davec@borax.lcs.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 15:34:01 GMT From: ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (ROBERT LEONE) Subject: Re: Question about _Silent Running_ This material can be looked up in many standard movie guides. You might also try the movie rental catalogs at your campus events office for this information. I just happen to know off the top of my head that one of the three scriptwriters was Michael (Mike) Cimino, who later went into directoral history with the $70 million box office disaster Heaven's Gate. Silent Running starred Bruce Dern, had two Joan Baez songs in the soundtrack, and the overall incidental music was done by classical music comedian Peter Shickele, the madman responsible (for being) "P.D.Q. Bach." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Apr 87 11:42:48 EDT From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Feed Me! Have I been gone for that long or has nobody yet mentioned "Little Shop Of Horrors"? I saw the new movie a few months ago without knowing anything about the plot except that is was weird. I have not yet had a chance to see the play or the original movie. "Little Shop" is quite definitely a cult film, and will probably give the "Rocky Horror Picture Show" some serious competition. Andy Steinberg UMass Amherst ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 23:59:16 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugjeffh@RUTGERS.EDU (Jeffrey Horvath) Subject: Re: Feed Me! I saw "Little Shop" last summer and was vastly disappointed. I wasn't expecting anything even in the same class as the "Rocky Horror Picture Show" but was still disappointed. The show had some (very few) good points - it had a funny line or two - but that in no way compensated for the annoyingly obnoxious musical aspect of it. I think it would have been much better left to the stage as a musical so as not to tempt we curious sf'ers. If it had been better adapted to the screen (demusicalized), it would have been more bearable -maybe only boring. All in all, a really BAD movie. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 14:19:04 GMT From: paw3c@krebs.acc.virginia.edu (Pat Wilson) Subject: Re: Feed Me! ugjeffh@sunybcs.uucp (Jeffrey Horvath) writes: > If it had been better adapted to the screen (demusicalized), it > would have been more bearable -maybe only boring. All in all, a > really BAD movie. But the music *made* that film! Have you ever seen the original? Now _that's_ bad. (In case you hadn't guessed, I loved it - I'd see it again if it was still in town...) Pat Wilson, UVa Medical School UUCP: seismo!virginia!paw3c CSNET: paw3c@acc.virginia.edu BITNET: paw3c@virginia.BITNET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 28 Apr 87 0945-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #184 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Apr 87 0945-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #184 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 28 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 184 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Apr 87 20:05:26 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: sources... Titles (oldies -- we all know the newer ones...) I am adding: _Waldo and Magic, Inc._ (1940) _Assignment in Eternity_ _Beyond this Horizon_ _The Day after Tommorrow_ _Double Star_ _The Man who Sold the Moon_ Note: I haven't actually READ any of these. All but _Waldo_ I got from the page inside _Waldo_'s cover advertising "Other SIGNET books by Robert A. Heinlein." I got _Waldo_ at a used book sale for $0.50, and will eventually read it I guess, but I'll have you know I got it cuz my *brother* likes Heinlein -- not I. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 22:32:51 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: > It's been a while since I read this book, but the essay seems >accurate from what I remember. I'd appreciate hearing what all you >folks think about it's position and/or my position on this book or >Heinlein in general. Uh, one word comes to mind: superficial (the essay, that is). The typical Heinlein novel takes a few philosophical or theoretical concepts and tries to work throughsome of the details to present an Image of the consequences of that philosophy. Of course there are contradictions or rather counter-examples. In fact the end of the book has the Lunar Anarchy collapsing under the weight of Human Nature and establised form... Heinlein is not asking you to Believe, he is asking you to Think. It is unfortunate that we too often have "gag reflexes" that make it difficult to read things that we may not agree with and still try to consider the issues on their own merits... unfortunate that George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 87 07:59:41 GMT From: stuart@CS.ROCHESTER.EDU (Stuart Friedberg) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay I think the essay is significantly off the mark, and just plain wrong in at least one respect. The essayist points out that the revolution- aries were paying for the revolution by stealing from their fellow Lunies. True. He (she?) then argues that this is contrary to the moral philosophy Heinlein's protagonists are promoting. Right! And that's the whole point of the scene the essayist did *not* reference, wherein Manny confronts LePaz and asks what the hell is going on, and LePaz tells him, in essence, that theory is great but he doesn't have any pragmatic alternatives. The "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" (tanstaafl) theme recurs in Heinlein's work. Here it applies to overthrow of a pretty clearly defined political (the Warden) and economic (fixed catapult head prices) oppression. This theme emphasizes the dependence of *all* activities, no matter how moral, on pragmatic considerations completely unaffected by morality, like gravity and atmosphere (or the lack of it). It seems obvious to me, if not to the author of the essay, that one of the points Heinlein is making is *not* how great rational anarchy is, but rather how close to the edge *all* social organizations are. That moral philosophy is great as far as it goes, and it doesn't go far enough to put bread on the table. Look at the scene where Mannie is thrown in jail for showing his family portrait in Kentucky! On the surface, Heinlein is showing how irrational those degenerate Earthies are. However, while the prejudices of the Lunies are rationalized, and the prejudices of the Earthies are shown in bad light, they both have prejudices! It is only because Heinlein made the irrationalities, moral compromises, and prejudices of his protagonists so apparent that the essayist is able to complain about the surface contradictions. There is more than one scene in the book where these contradictions are more or less explicitly pointed out, by Heinlein. I think *these* are the lessons that Heinlein is trying to get across. Only the most superficial analyst would claim that Heinlein is singing a paean to the joys of shoving people out airlocks for bad breath. Citizens of both the Earth and the Moon are highly constrained by their societies. On the Earth, the constraints are legislated and enforced by government. On the Moon, the constraints are conventional and enforced by consensus. Under the surface rhetoric, the Lunies freer than the Earthies in only one sense: they are free to go someplace else when they disagree with conventions. A moment's reflection will reveal that there *isn't* anywhere else for them to go. Heinlein made this point quite clear: they can't even go to Earth! Look at the instance where LePaz tells Mannie that the Earth committee was going to make an offer that would have been accepted by the Lunies, and that he had had to be personally offensive to the committee members to ensure that only an unacceptable offer would be made. Heinlein's revolutionary is not only stealing from his comrades, he is acting contrary to their interests! This is not some pointless inconsistency, Heinlein is making a point! This goes right along with the passages the essayist cites where LePaz stacks the political convention and leads the non-conspirators by the nose. The point, which is made *explicitly*, is leadership: Neither Earth nor Luna are run by the masses. There are only so many "anarchists" who are rational political creatures and they are not so far, in reality, from the Senators who rule the Earth. Everybody else is either competing for control, or out of the picture, and that means almost everyone. Welcome to reality. I could go on at length, but I think the essayist performed only a superficial analysis, and was likely motivated by distaste for the political and societal forms Heinlein established for his protagonists. Lunar society is not a Utopia, no matter how comfortable Mannie is in his home environment. Heinlein doesn't claim it is, and goes to considerable length to point up *reality* and the similarities between the protagonists and the antagonists. I happen to enjoy the book very much, but not on the basis of analysis or politics. I just think it's an outstanding story. Stu Friedberg {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart stuart@cs.rochester.edu ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 87 09:18:24 GMT From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) The author of that criticism has dug himself into a deep hole because he assumes that it is written from the point of view of Heinlein, rather than from the point of view of Mannie. Mannie is a superbly drawn character, but Mannie is not Heinlein. You are getting a story of the revolution written by one of the revolutionaries. It should not be surprising that *Mannie* thinks that Luna is the new utopia -- but that says nothing about what Heinlein believes. Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 87 17:52:50 GMT From: haste#@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) Maybe someone will appear to defend this essay, but I'm afraid it won't be me. 'Anarchy is a very unstable form of government' (Niven?) and the only thing that makes it possible on Luna is the Authority's suppression of competing governments. The anarchy collapses as soon as the Authority is removed. Perhaps the key line in the book is Bernardo de la Paz's "I am free, no matter what rules surround me." With the institution of government, the Yammerheads who, in conditions of anarchy, could only do retail damage, can now switch to wholesale. I think that, to a large extent, this *does* reflect Heinlein's views. But his answer to the Yammerheads is *not* anarchy and vacuum treatment -- they don't work. The answer is to be free and responsible, whatever the official rules currently happen to be. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 01:57:54 GMT From: rpiacm!snuggle@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) > Heinlein: Trapped in a Cage of his Own Design [A fairly reasonable essay on Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" which ends with the following conclusion] > So in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Heinlein, the author and > therefore the authority, asks the reader to reject authority, a > contradiction in itself. He also asks the reader to swallow a pack > of other contradictions, disguising tyranny and terror as freedom > and happiness, and confusing barbaric and civilized societies. He > thus erodes his own authority concerning the worlds he himself has > created. The reader can resort logically to only one thing: the > rejection of Heinlein's authority. He will not necessarily reject > authority in general, but cannot accept Heinlein's authority > specifically. Therefore, Heinlein is implicated, and any messages > he might have tried to convey through the book are invalidated by > his self-contradictions. Oh really? I wonder. You are assuming you have correctly interpreted what RAH's message/intent/purpose/etc was in writing this book. Over the years many people have attempted to define what Heinlein's politics and beliefs are, all of them coming to many widely varied conclusions. He has been called anarchistic, communistic, fascist, liberal, etc. all of them based upon what people thought as his "message" in any one particular book. However, what they all fail to do is look at ALL his books. If you do that you find that if his politics are reflected in his works, then he is indeed a VERY confused individual. Or, perhaps he just doesn't want us to pin him down. But, as to the conclusion of this otherwise good essay: it is said that Heinlein's message is one of anarchy, that he is urging us to defy authority. However, as this essay correctly points out, his "message" is self-contradicing.Therefore, the reader cannot look up to Heinlein as an authority...and that's exactly what the "message" urges us to do: DEFY AUTHORITY. In other words, in a very brilliant piece of fiction Heinlein has not only lain down the basics of anarchistic principles, he has also succeeded in destroying that one aspect of those principles which could be it's ultimate defeat: the supposed AUTHORITY of it's author. By destroying his own credibility, Heinlein actually realizes in full his "message" of anarchy. Authority CANNOT be trusted, not even the author of the "message" 'Authority CANNOT be trusted'! Is there any wonder why I consider "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" perhaps RAH's single greatest work? Chris Andersen UUCP: ..!seismo!rpics!rpiacm!snuggle BITNET: rpiacm!snuggle%csv.rpi.edu@rpitsmts.bitnet INTERNET: rpiacm!snuggle@csv.rpi.edu ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 14:05:33 GMT From: firth@SEI.CMU.EDU (Robert Firth) Subject: Heinlein's Luna With reference to the Essay and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress **** MORE MILD SPOILERS *** First, to admit that I like this book. It seems well constructed; the characters are (mostly) believable and different, with reasonable motivations. Now for the point. I think the author of the Essay has overlooked something vital about lunar "manners". He seems to think that killing impolite people &c is just a social tradition, as it was in that barbaric anarchy seventeenth-century France, for instance. [That's sarcasm, by the way]. Leaving aside the question which is civilised, a society that stuffs child molesters out through the airlock or one that releases them on parole, there are valid historical antecedents for Heinlein's postulated society. Luna is a HOSTILE environment. Man survives there by virtue of advanced technology that must be reliable. One idiot who doesn't understand how a nuclear reactor works, or who falls asleep monitoring the air supply, can kill a large number of people. We have these problems today with our technology, but in an extreme case, such as the recent derailment of a trainload of toxic chemicals here in Pittsburgh, you can at least head for the hills and find air and water. On Luna, you die. So the whole society sets a great store by individual responsibility - they have to. That includes not just intelligence, or the intelligence not to fool around, but an awareness of ones duty to consider at all times the safety and welfare of ones fellows. In the Luna of the novel, this has reached an extreme, but the foundation is sound: somebody who doesn't respect his fellows is a danger to the whole community - if he gets drunk and insults you in the street, why, he might be drunk when checking the emergency bulkheads... Now, I don't necessarily agree with this kind of social ethos, but Heinlein's point, which surely is valid, is that the Lunar mores have evolved out of their unique environment, and he makes a plausible case for them. To analyse them in isolation from their context is not valid criticism. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 15:00:27 GMT From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) Heinlein's credentials as a libertarian have always been suspect in my mind. Any decent libertarian theorist (and even most anarchists) make provisions for protection of weak from strong. Heinlein's views have a bit too much of the feudal in them and rely on the idea that the good are going to be strong enough to quash the bullies. Still, I don't agree with the idea that Heinlein has no right to express these views. Also, this is science fiction, and Heinlein could claim that this is just a story, not a blueprint for mankind. After all, there are ideas in "Starship Troopers" that seem to contradict this kind of anarchy. There is also the valid question as to how much brutality by individuals in Heinlein's world it takes to outweight the massive institutional brutality of the kind generated by almost all governments in this world. Just how "civilized" is nuclear war? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 87 18:33:07 EDT From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa Subject: RAH's Early Works Eric Carpenter ran a list of Heinlein's early stuff (Tunnel in the Sky, Rocket Ship GALILEO, etc.) There was one story dealing with selective breeding of H. Sap.-- from the description, I'd vote for "The Day After Tomorrow", since "Methuselah's Children" would pretty well account for stories involving the Howard Families. In DAT, humanity is divided into people who have been bred (for greater intell- igence, resistance to disease, lack of allergies...) selectively, and into those people referred to as 'controls'-- no variations from the basic stock. The 'controls' provide a baseline for humanity (and have allergies, and wear glasses). So tell me, Eric-- did I get it right ? Regards, Dave Wegener ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 28 Apr 87 0957-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #185 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Apr 87 0957-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #185 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 28 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 185 Today's Topics: Television - Max Headroom (6 msgs) & The Prisoner (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Apr 87 18:48:35 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!warwick!gordon@RUTGERS.EDU (Gordon Joly) Subject: Re: Max Headroom question williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes: >What exactly is a cross-hatch generator? A cross-hatch generator is used to adjust the convergence of the three colours on television. We have PAL in the U.K., whereas the U.S.A. uses N.T.S.C. for the colour signal. I am not sure if that makes any difference. Gordon Joly {seismo,ucbvax,decvax}!mcvax!ukc!warwick!gordon ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 16:14:19 GMT From: seismo!sun!fluke!ssc-vax!cxsea!blm@RUTGERS.EDU (Brian Matthews) Subject: Re: Origin of "ICE" as a term for computer security dm3h#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dennis Moul) writes: >WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET (John White) asks: >> And, from the previews last week of this weeks program, they >>seem to be bringing in ICE, as in computer security (so named in >>Gibson's Neuromancer). (Side note: Did Gibson make up the term? >>I think that's where I first (and only, so far) saw it used.) > >I'm sure the term originated considerably before _Neuromancer_. I >recall a story about "black ICE" (security that kills intruders by >backfeeding massive electrical shocks through the keyboard) in an >old ('78-'80?) Fantasy & Science Fiction (F&SF) or Isaac Asimov's >SF Magazine (IASFM). Now that you mention it, I seem to recall a story like this, but I have no idea where or when I read it. >I don't recall exactly what ICE stands for, though. Intelligent >Countermeasures Electronics, perhaps? In _Neuromancer_ at least, ICE stands for Intruder Countermeasures Electronics. Brian L. Matthews ...{mnetor,uw-beaver!ssc-vax}!cxsea!blm +1 206 251 6811 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 21:50:55 GMT From: ames!borealis!ptsfa!cogent!mark@RUTGERS.EDU (Captain Neptune) Subject: Re: Max Headroom Television Seriew When a novel idea such as Max Headroom is put into the form of a TV series, I tend to be wary and nervously await it's downfall. Case in point: "V" started as a very *good* mini-series (and I usually hate mini-series'!) The end result was a sappy corny and downright stupid TV series that was shot down after less than a half season (and not a minute too soon). Well, Max Headroom was always fascinating to me and I never got to see the HBO special that it originated from...so I thought "Gee! I can see it on TV every week now! But wait! What if it goes the way that 'V' did?" To see Max Headroom become the victim of network TV incompetence like so many other good ideas have would be tragic. So I have watched it...nervously. I am, however, pleased to announce that this commonly observed disaster has not yet occured on the "Max Headroom" series. I'm still watching... it's still keeping my interest...no sap deteceted yet...they just might pull off a success here. Let's hope the same is true of Star Trek next year... Mark Steven Jeghers {ihnp4,cbosgd,lll-lcc,lll-crg}|{dual,ptsfa}!cogent!mark ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 00:30:43 GMT From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (T. Russell Flanagan) Subject: Re: Max Headroom Television Seriew Though I saw *my* first episode just last week, I enjoyed it much more than I though I would. I am one of those people who think Max Headroom is pretentiously trite. Despite this, I liked the show. To me, the worst portions were those in which Max figured prominently. I liked most of the rest, and by the end of the show I had attained the correct state of mind to appreciate even Max (no drugs, just my own warped psyche). I enjoyed the social commmentary bits, which were gone over too fast for your average couch potato to loose any sleep over. I especially liked the title of the program which replaced Edison's program, "Lumpy's Proletariat". All in all, I think I will watch the show fairly regularly, and that is saying something, since I only watch re-runs of Star Trek with any regularity whatsoever. T. Russell Flanagan ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 18:44:00 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!retief@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: More on Max Headroom > I can see why the network would try to soften up and unconfuse > Max for the American audience, but that doesn't mean I have to > like it. If that's why Max is so different, then I think that > stinks. I like Max, both this way, and the original way (sorta > like Coke). But if the producers thought they HAD to tone the > weirdness down, then I wonder if the series can last. I hope it > does. My fear is that despite dilution and apparent simplification, good old Max will still be too "weird" for the American TV audience taste. I certainly hope that I'm being to pessimistic; despite the changes that people are bemoaning, I still enjoy the show a good bit more than the run-of-the mill. Like, totally. ..ihnp4!bradley!retief ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 87 15:30:00 GMT From: blanken@m.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Max Headroom Television Seriew Yes, Max has been on network TV for only a short while. Some of us here at the U of I have been watching Max since his first appearance on cable TV, the host of a music video show. Since his rise to commoditization (possible word, maybe?), Max has departed from his original, yet charismatic, naivete. His refreshing point of view on many subjects was the source of much laughter and humor for all of us here. We especially liked his interviews with major rock stars like Roger Daltry, the fallen star Boy George, and David Bowie. The best part of Max's interviews is the way he ripped down the veil of aloofness from these people and brought them down to Earth...really refreshing. Unfortunately, Max has taken up Coke commercials almost full time. He has a six figure contract with option for renewal. I liked Max when he was less a star and more original in his approach. A definite satirist, Max was great among the newcomers. Matt Frewer, the creator of Max Headroom, should've held out longer before succumbing to the wealth easily gained by going with the American corporate giants. Don't get me wrong here, Frewer probably followed his instincts with good intentions, but the american populace will burn out on Max too soon. I would hate to see Max go the way of a fad instead of enduring on to be a trend. Eric Blankenburg University of Illinois ARPA: blanken@a.cs.uiuc.edu CSNET: blanken@uiuc.csnet UUCP: {ihnp4, pur-ee, convex}!uiucdcs!blanken ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 17:00:11 GMT From: rwn@ihlpa.att.com (Bob Neumann) Subject: Prisoner **SPOILERS** Last night 4/20 I saw the last episode (#17) of the Prisoner on channel 50 in Chicago. This is the third time I've seen this episode, and I still am confused. Was a "formal explanantion" of the last episode ever published by the producers of the show, fan club, etc. or is it up to the individual viewer to draw his own conclusions? Perhaps our own interpretations of the final episode would make an interesting discussion in this newsgroup. Anyway, on to my questions: No. 48 and Leo Mckern's No. 2 presumably died in earlier episodes, yet reappear at the final episode. Do the "guardians" of the Village have control over life and death, or were the deaths of these two men induced by drugs, etc.? Who IS No. 1? When No.6 is introduced to No. 1, the face shown is a black/white mask, which hides the mask of a monkey, which hides the face of No.6 himself! Is this another joke that is played on No.6, and No.1 is actually never revealed? What is the purpose of the Rocket lift-off? Was the village run by aliens from another planet? (This is the only logical reason I can determine for their possession of advanced technology, etc. and the "dissolving" scene of "Rover" the big white beach ball!! at the end of the show!) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 87 02:59:00 GMT From: sl109001@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: Prisoner **SPOILERS** >Last night 4/20 I saw the last episode (#17) of the Prisoner on >channel 50 in Chicago. > >Was the village run by aliens from another planet? (This is the >only logical reason I can determine for their possession of >advanced technology, etc. and the "dissolving" scene of "Rover" the >big white beach ball!! at the end of the show!) Wow! Another Prisoner fan! Nice to meet you. I loved this series myself, and am now in the process of re-watching them after ten years. I haven't seen episode #17 recently enough to answer your questions though. Sorry. But what I did want to point out is that Rover was actually a weather balloon, pulled along by thin cables usually. Tough 'ol weather balloon, that Rover. Sincerely, Colin Klipsch Indiana University at Bloomington sl109001@silver.bacs.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 22:22:41 GMT From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman) Subject: Re: The Prisoner agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes: > I was wondering if any or all of the episodes of "The Prisoner" > are out on videotape and if so, where I could get them. Also, > along the same lines, are there any novelizations of any of the > episodes? Though they show them here in Denver (and on PBS > stations in many other cities, too), I always seem to see the same > ones over and over again. Are there any other Prisoner/McGoohan > fans out there? For some reason, even though "The Prisoner" is > his lesser-known series (I would think many more people know about > the "Secret Agent" one), I always like it better. All the Prisoner episodes are out on videotape (I've seen them in Tower Records' video section). As far as I know there are no novelizations of the episodes, though there is a book by Thomas M. Disch based on the series (actually, it has almost no bearing on the series, but it IS by Disch; it's well-written if you can ignore its unfaithfulness to the series, and it leaves an incredible number of loose ends at the end). There are also two other books (loosely) based on the series and somehow connected to each other, but I never read them. I don't think these two were ever published in America -- the only copies I've seen were British editions (from Target, maybe?). There are lots of other fans out there, and several large fan clubs (I don't have the addresses on me; e-mail if you're interested). One of them has an annual trip to Portmeirion (sp?), where most of The Prisoner was filmed. jed hartman {{seismo, ihnp4}!bpa, cbmvax!vu-vlsi, sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 13:43:52 PDT (Wednesday) From: Josh Susser Cc: isis!udenva!agranok@seismo.css.gov Subject: Re: The Prisoner Yes, all 17 episodes of The Prisoner are out on video. I found them in a video store in Pasadena, CA (my home) that carries lots of obscure stuff. You should be warned, though, that the tapes are in the wrong order. Apparently, the episodes were produced in one order and aired in another. The tapes are numbered in the order the shows aired in originally. I have been able to figure out some of the correct order, but I'm still unsure of where some of the episodes go, and I couldn't really say without a list of titles in front of me. I watched the entire series (for the first time) earlier this year at the rate of two shows every Tuesday (three the last week). More than two hours of The Prisoner at one sitting can give you a really serious case of Purple Tapioca Brain. Watching the last three episodes in one sitting was very weird. There is a very strong continuity in the last few episodes, and the last three together make for a very powerful statement of something that I haven't quite figured out yet. By the way, The Prisoner #17 gets my vote for the weirdest hour of television shown EVER. If anybody has information as to the correct order of the episodes, I'd like to hear it. Mail to me and I'll post to the net. be seeing you Josh Susser Susser.pasa@Xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 00:46:03 GMT From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura) Subject: Re: Prisoner **SPOILERS** rwn@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Bob Neumann) writes: >Last night 4/20 I saw the last episode (#17) of the Prisoner on >channel 50 in Chicago. > >This is the third time I've seen this episode, and I still am >confused. Was a "formal explanantion" of the last episode ever >published by the producers of the show, fan club, etc. No. Pat McGooham, however, has made appearances for discussion groups. He made a very memorable appearance before a class, I think of Ryerson Polytechnic in Toronto, Ontario, which was filmed and broadcast over public television. Warner Troyer was the chairman for the question period. What do you want it to mean? Jim Omura 2A King George's Drive, Toronto (416) 652-3880 ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 16:03:56 BST From: Subject: The Prisoner. The Prisoner is being released on video over here in Britain, in its entirety. The company doing them is Channel 5 (W.H.Smiths and Woolworths are their main retail outlets). They are being released with (I think) two episodes per tape, at about 10 pounds each tape. (Channel 5 have just released "The Cage" all British ST fans). Whether they had already been put out in the States seems doubtful to me, since it was a British show. I've no doubt that they will soon appear over there if the response over here is good enough. There is a good episode run-down in the current issue of Starburst (no 104) but I think that this is a British magazine. ENU2856%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@UCL-CS.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 17:53 EDT From: "James J. Lippard" Subject: Re: The Prisoner All of the episodes of "The Prisoner" are on videotape. I rented them all over a period of time (as they were being released) from my local Tower Records. There are three Prisoner novels, but they are not novelizations of episodes. The novels are "The Prisoner" by Thomas Disch, "Who is Number Two?" by David McDaniel, and "A Day in the Life" by Hank Stine. They are available from Laissez-Faire Books, 532 Broadway, 7th Floor, New York, NY 10012. Jim Lippard at MULTICS.MIT.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 20:38:01 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: THE PRISONER From: udenva!agranok (Alex Granok) > ...are there any novelizations of any of the episodes? Well, there were three novels written based on the series: THE PRISONER Thomas M. Disch 1969 NUMBER TWO David McDaniel 1970 A DAY IN THE LIFE Hank Stine 1970 There have been long out of print in the US and are very difficult to come by. Used-book dealers in the sf world charge major bucks for them. There are British paperback editions that at least until fairly recently were still in print. They may be easier to find, and cheaper. I think there were British hardcover editions as well. From: > The Prisoner is being released on video over here in Britain, in > its entirety.... Whether they had already been put out in the > States seems doubtful to me, since it was a British show. I've no > doubt that they will soon appear over there if the response over > here is good enough. I hate to tell you this, but they've been available over here for about two or more years. I can't believe that they've only started to appear in the UK. If your other info is correct, you're getting a bargain. Two episodes per tape at 10 pounds per tape? --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 28 Apr 87 1012-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #186 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Apr 87 1012-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #186 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 28 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 186 Today's Topics: Television - UFO & Quark (5 msgs) & Lost in Space (4 msgs) & DangerMouse (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 87 17:37:16 GMT From: m1b@rayssd.ray.com (M. Joseph Barone) Subject: "UFO" TV series update The May issue of Video Review has a little blurb on Anderson's TV series, "U.F.O.". Since the article is so small, I'll unshame- fully copy it verbatim: We always try to bring like-minded people together, whatever their passions may be. VR reader James Killian of Sumiton, AL, wants to maintain a close encounter of the postal kind with other fans of the early '70s British TV program U.F.O. A company called ITC still syndicates U.F.O. to American TV-stations. So, if you identify with U.F.O. fans, write: S.H.A.D.O. *U.S.E.C.C. 125 Fort Hill St. #3 New Milford, CT 06776 I have no idea how the above address correlates to ITC or Mr. Killian of Alabama, or why the '*' is in the first line. Joe Barone m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM {cbosgd, gatech, ihnp4, linus, mirror, uiucdcs}!rayssd!m1b ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 09:11:42 PDT From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa Subject: Quark Quark was a very funny show (at least to those of us who like Richard Benjamin and know all the SF movies they were parodying) that lasted only for one summer season. That puts it around 10-15 episodes. The cast was Ficus, the unemotional plant science officer who had most of the really great lines. Like when Quark went outside to fix something and came back in as an old man. He said, "Ficus, how did I get so old?" Ficus replied, "One hypothesis is that you were outside for ten years." Then there's that great blank stare. Or the time some girl was trying to seduce Ficus and they ended up pollinating. They layed on their backs with their arms and legs in the air (sort of like a dead dog) and she says, "Now what?" "We wait for the bees." There were other direct parodies of popular Star Trek shows too. The clones, Betty and Betty. Each claimed to be the original and was willing to argue about it. Loudly. The grisly old scientist with a patch over his eye (he lost it when someone slapped him on the back while he was looking through a microscope). That stupid robot that he built. "Mank you." "That's 'Thank you'." "You're melcome" All in all, I enjoyed it as the ridiculous drivel that it was. Jon pugh@nmfecc.arpa National Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory PO Box 5509 L-561 Livermore, California 94550 (415) 423-4239 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 11:09:16 EDT From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: QUARK All I saw of Quark was one episode where an energy creature was eating everything in its path, including gravity. It was stopped when the ship's robot tried to make love to the garbage control unit and spewed the garbage into space when the creature was attacking the ship. Quark ranks up there(or down there) with Hardware Wars, Star Drek, and Airplane. ------------------------------ Date: THURSDAY 04/23/87 11:26:40 PST From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO@POMONA> Subject: Quark I remember Quark!! I loved it; there was Ficus the Vegeton, Gene/Jean the Transmute, and Betty1 & Betty2 the clone twins; there was also a 'mad scientist' type, and a robot who was a coward. There were also the characters Otto Palindrome, chief of Space Station Perma 1 (played by Conrad Janis, later to play the father in 'Mork & Mindy'), and "The Head", the leader of them all, with a 39 hat size...... My personal thought on Quark was that it died because too many of its jokes went over the heads of the idiot masses. (Look, the people of this country elected *Reagan* -- TWICE! No way can you overestimate their stupidity!!!) George Madison 7GMADISO@POMONA.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 14:24:41 CDT From: Paul Havlak Subject: Quark (the best SF comedy ever? does it have any Subject: competition?) As far as I what I saw and can recall (and I was in junior high at the time) Quark had one pilot show before Star Wars, then a big (perhaps one-hour) show after Star Wars which was a direct parody, with The Source and a big enemy battleship etc. I believe Richard Benjamin played Commander Quark and twins played Betty and Betty (which one's the clone?). The other regular characters I can remember were Ficus, the first officer ("Ficus, why do you have a gauge in your ear"), perhaps another scientist type (my memory fails me there), and Quark's superior back at the base, some guy with a huge brain and similarly-sized migraines. One of the my favorite scenes was early in the first pilot, when the ship is closing in on its target, the crew is all excited, and Commander Quark is tense at the controls (at this point, there's no indication that this is a comedy). Cut to an exterior shot of the ship (what was its name anyway?) as its cargo bay drop open, manipulator arms swing out, and, to the tune (I think) of "Thus Spake Zarathustra," guide a Hefty bag the size of a house into the cargo hold. I really liked it, but suspect that it never had a very large audience. I'm not sure that NBC gave it a fair chance; I don't recall ever seeing an ad for the show, and I don't think it ever was on a regular weekly schedule. paco ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 03:23:35 GMT From: buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu (Elliott Buchholz) Subject: Re: Quark (the best SF comedy ever? does it have any Subject: competition?) I agree totally. Quark, for my cubits, was one of the funniest SF parodies ever created. It never got the chance it deserved. Every device and plot had some parody element to it. No SF movie or show was sacred to it. Star Trek, I believe, was the most parodied subject. Thre was the episode where Adam Quark was accidentally split into good Quark, Bad Quark. Also, I've heard many rumors, although haven't I been able to check if it's true or not, that the theme to Quark was the Star Trek theme played backwards. Bythe Lords of Kobol, what I wouldn't give for the episodes on VHS. Now, for those who like detailed info on the series read on. If not, hit 'q' now: QUARK 30 min NBC (they killed ST, too!) Feb. 24, 1978-April 14, 1978 8 episodes Science Fiction Comedy set in the year 2226 A.D. The voyages of an interplanetary garbage scow whose mission, on behalf of the U.G.S.P. (United Galaxy Sanitation Patrol) is to clean up the Milky Way. Cast: Captain Adam Quark Richard Benjamin Betty I, the co-pilot Tricia Barnstable Betty II, her clone, the co-pilot Cyb Barnstable Ficus, the Vegeton, a plant being, the emotionless Science Officer Richard Kelton Gene/Jean, the transmute, the chief engineer Tim Thomerson Andy, the cowardly robot Bobby Porter The Head, the head of the U.G.S.P. Allan Caillou Otto Palindrome, the chief architect of Space Station Perma One, the base for the U.G.S.P. Conrad Janis Music:Perry Botkin, Jr. Executive Producer: David Gerber Producer: Bruce Johnson Director: Hy Averback, Bruce Bilson, Peter H. Hunt Creator: Buck Henry And that's my trip down Memory Lane. Now back to our regulary scheduled net. Elliott Buchholz ARPA: buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu UUCP: rutgers!topaz!buchholz Bitnet: buchholz@zodiac.bitnet (201)-247-6544 201 Joyce Kilmer Ave New Brunswick, NJ 08901 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 00:37:50 GMT From: gmp@rayssd.ray.com (Gregory M. Paris) Subject: LiS (not SW) influence tek@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU (Ted Kim (ATW)) writes: > sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >>Apparently there was an episode of (ready?) LOST IN SPACE in which >>Will's father found this evil alien mask, see, and put it on, and >>it > > For some reason, the women of the LOST IN SPACE crew were occupied > or otherwise out of the picture. The alien mask tries to convince > Will and the others that his father has been abducted, and that > they must modify the Jupiter II in order to give chase. Of course, > Will figures out whats really happening and so on. This summary is a little off. Yes there was a mask -- more like a helmet -- but I don't think that Will was going to modify the Jupiter II. I think that this was the last episode of the first season, and at that time, Will was quite young, just getting familiar with the robot. The JII was (surprise) crashed on a planet, and not flyable. The alien (mask) that had taken over John Robinson had the technical abilities to fix the ship, but had not completed the modifications, when everybody got so sick of his nastiness. I think that Dr. J.R. finally "broke the spell" when he was being forced to kill Will (or maybe just let him die). I think that John finally threw the mask down a very deep crevice, never to be seen again. Since nobody in this group ever admits having watched LiS, I'm sure I won't be contradicted on this, so why not take it as Gospel? BTW, the first season of the show wasn't really all that bad. Dr. Smith was a pretty decent bad guy back then, and the robot was just a little bit scary (and not human). Greg Paris gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM (a UUCP domain) {cci632,cbosgd,gatech,ihnp4,linus,necntc,uiucdcs,umcp-cs}!rayssd!gmp ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 20:32:14 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: LiS (not SW) influence gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM (Gregory M. Paris) writes: >Since nobody in this group ever admits having watched LiS, I'm sure >I won't be contradicted on this, so why not take it as Gospel? >BTW, the first season of the show wasn't really all that bad. Dr. >Smith was a pretty decent bad guy back then, and the robot was just >a little bit scary (and not human). Alright, I admit it. I used to watch Lost in Space as reruns after school when it replaced Gilligan's Island. It was kinda stupid, though. I don't think it really merited my valuable time 8-), but it was kind of fun in a mindless sort of way. Its main problem was that it was way oh waaaayy too sickly, sweetly, happily FIFTIES! (Note: I don't even know if it was really filmed in the 50's or not, but it must have been around in there somewhere, and it certainly *looks* like a fifties kind of thing. It is, at least, 50's at heart!) Maybe this has something to do with our 80's Return to the Fifties destiny! ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 21:53:33 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: LiS (not SW) influence gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM (Gregory M. Paris) writes: >Since nobody in this group ever admits having watched LiS, I'm sure >I won't be contradicted on this, so why not take it as Gospel? >BTW, the first season of the show wasn't really all that bad. Dr. >Smith was a pretty decent bad guy back then, and the robot was just >a little bit scary (and not human). Actually, I seem to recollect that the first episode was rather good and had me kind of sitting on the edge of the sofa in suspense. Of course I was maybe a little younger at the time and the show quickly degenerated into typical network sitcom silliness. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 87 10:00:02 GMT From: lll-lcc!ohlone!nelson@RUTGERS.EDU (Bron Nelson) Subject: Re: LiS (not SW) influence gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM (Gregory M. Paris) writes: > Since nobody in this group ever admits having watched LiS, I'm > sure I won't be contradicted on this, so why not take it as > Gospel? BTW, the first season of the show wasn't really all that > bad. Dr. Smith was a pretty decent bad guy back then, and the > robot was just a little bit scary (and not human). Actually, the first couple of episodes of the first season were really pretty good (at least, by the standards of the day). Doc Smith was a very clever, intelligent, and ruthless agent of a foreign power. Sadly, this ended all too soon, and the show drifted into vapidity (probably, they ran out of the ideas they stole from Roddenberry). Bron Nelson {ihnp4, lll-lcc}!ohlone!nelson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1987 01:22 CDT From: a.d. jensen Subject: DangerMouse I'm really enjoying the DangerMouse shows which are on Nickelodean every night, and had a couple of questions about the series: 1) Are these all repeats? Is so, are they making any more? How many were made? 2) Does DM ever have any enemies other than Greenback? 3) I've got most of them figured out, but what in God's name is the furry thing always hanging around Greenback. Please post replies to the net and I will summarize in my mailbox. :-) a.d. jensen Department of Geography University of North Dakota Grand Forks, ND 58201 ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 15:19:51 GMT From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) Subject: Re: DangerMouse Oh boy, a DM question! From: a.d. jensen > I'm really enjoying the DangerMouse shows which are on Nickelodean > every night, and had a couple of questions about the series: > > 1) Are these all repeats? Is so, are they making any more? How > many were made? As far as I know, yes, these are all repeats, and no, they're not making any more. Cosgrove-Hall is now doing "The Wind in the Willows". I detect 3 distinct "seasons", though I have no other proof of this. I count 73 titles, of which 18 are either 2-part or double-length. I've been taping these with an eye towards doing an episode guide, but I'm not done yet (VCR problems...). I do think I have all the titles, though. Shall I post? > 2) Does DM ever have any enemies other than Greenback? Oh, my, yes. If you want recurring villains, there's Count Duckula, J.J. Quark, and (a recurring "character", at least) the time-travelling clock. Other notable one-shots are the mad composer Wufgang (my *favorite* episode!), Copper-Conk Casssidy (2nd favorite), the Gremlin, the Dimensional Demon, El Loco, Jones the Dragon, and Master Longsnout. There are others. > 3) I've got most of them figured out, but what in God's name is > the furry thing always hanging around Greenback. Nero? He's a caterpillar, and Greenback's "precious" pet. Locally, we had been getting DM on Nickelodeon and on Sunday mornings on another channel. This was notable because they had shorts called "Secret Agent Secrets" between episodes. Then they decided to replace DM with a talk show featuring NYC Mayor Koch. Uproar! People demanded DM back. An issue of the Daily News featured an illustration of Koch and DM slugging it out in a boxing ring. I'm not sure what the latest is. > Please post replies to the net and I will summarize in my mailbox. > :-) No way I'm going to pass up an opportunity to convert people to DM-watchers! Fun facts to tell your friends: Oxford University (yes, in England) is the home of the Dangermouse Appreciation Society. No, I don't have an address for them. Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!rutgers!elbereth!cje ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 05:05:43 GMT From: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@RUTGERS.EDU (Karen L. Black) Subject: Re: DangerMouse 2) In addition to Baron Silas Greenback, DM and Penfold have tangled with Count Duckula, little green men from space, and a Welsh dragon (that's a strange one, innit, boyo?) 3) Silas Greenback seems to be a parody on James Bond's enemy Auric Gold- finger. The toad's pet caterpiller, Nero, is the counterpart to the latter's pet cat. ...be QUIET, Penfold! Karen Black c/o Robert Plamondon UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 28 Apr 87 1033-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #187 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Apr 87 1033-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #187 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 28 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 187 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Androids & Telepathy (3 msgs) & Influences on SF (5 msgs) & Some Errata & Gardner Fox & Photos at Cons & Creating the Perfect Creature ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Apr 87 06:18:07 GMT From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu Subject: the word "android" By the way, I noticed no one bothered to look it up in the OED when this was being discussed. If you want to know, they claim it was invented by an early 18th century lexicographer. OED says the word is "rare". This is out of date, of course. The supplement cites C Simak _Time and Again_ with a 1951 usage, and says that the word is no longer rare. Matthew P Wiener Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 20:52:28 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: telepathy isn't always good (was Re: Silverberg's "Dying Subject: Inside") john@bc-cis.UUCP (John L. Wynstra) writes: >Are there any other instances in SF where the subject of telepathy >is treated as a curse rather than a gift? David Cronenberg's movie SCANNERS deals with a group of people whose mothers were given an experimental drug during pregnancy; the children are involuntary telepaths. Most of them wind up quite unpleasantly insane. I saw the movie many years ago and would very much like to see it again; I remember it as being very good and some of the chilling scenes have stayed with me quite vividly. For those who hear "Cronenberg" and think "gore", there are in fact two splatter scenes: one at the very beginning of the movie and one at the very end. Other than that, you're safe. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 16:46:00 PST From: Marty Cohen Subject: Telepathy a curse, not a blessing A short story I read numerous years ago (authors name forgotten) dealt with the only two telepaths in the world. Their paths first crossed on trains going in opposite directions. When they finally met, they were initially overjoyed, but when they began telepathically (and involuntarily) exchanging their most personal and embarrassing thoughts and memories, they became disgusted with each other. The last lines of the story, as I recall them were: "Get out of my mind. I hate you." Marty Cohen Northrop Research and Technology Center mcohen@nrtc.northrop.com ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 18:28:34 GMT From: ag4@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Anne Louise Gockel) Subject: Re: Telepathy a curse, not a blessing Zelazny wrote an extremely powerful short story about an adult telepath and a child telepath. The story is in _Last Defender of Camelot_ and I believe it is called 'The Power'. If you haven't read the story, find the book and read it! Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 08:48 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Star Wars Influences Well, there's stealing and there's stealing. It's not a coincidence that a "Hero with a thousand faces" can be compiled: all these myths serve a common function for the human psyche. Certainly not all of the creators of these hero myths referenced Mr. Campbell's work or even any other hero myth. I took a course in myth that was one of my alltime favorites in college, and we started out talking about Star Wars. One of the really fun parts of the class was realizing how so many of my favorite SF stories fit into these mythic patterns. I had a terrible time deciding on the subject of my final paper, having ideas for Forbidden Planet, Star Trek, Space:1999 and Doctor Who. Also, I found it fascinating to observe how neatly a story I had written fit into these patterns. When writing it, I assure you, I had not only never read other people's observations of these mythic cycles, but had never, consciously, recognized them. I don't think that, just because a story fits into these common patterns, that an argument can be made for stealing. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1987 15:00 PST From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Under even more influences I have heard other people find the following influences on StarWars... "Tatooin" is like Arakis - complete with robed fighters in the deep desert. Spielberg refers to wanting C3P0 to look like a Fritz Lang(?) Robot. C3P0 and R2D2 being Laurel & Hardy. Alec Guiness playing Obi-Wan exactly like he played "Harcourt Riley"? in Elliott's "Cocktail Party". What *I* have always wanted to find in Star Wars was something original. PAAAAAR@CCS.CSUSCC.EDU paaaaar@calstate.bitnet Dick Botting Dept Comp Sci. Cal State U, San Bernardino, CA 92407 voice:714-887-7368 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 22:52:18 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Star Wars Influences I have no certain knowledge of the truth of this; it was published in an apa (fan magazine-type thing) I was a member of several years ago... Apparently there was an episode of (ready?) LOST IN SPACE in which Will's father found this evil alien mask, see, and put it on, and it took over his mind and made him do all sorts of nastiness. At the climax of the episode, Dad, wearing mask, is holding poor Will suspended in mid-air over the edge of a cliff, and threatening to drop him to his death on the cruel rocks below, etc. etc., and Will is screaming and crying "You're not my father, you're an evil alien mask, Dad, please wake up, don't let it rule you, Dad, please," and finally Dad, with a heroic effort, wrenches the mask off and pitches it over the cliff and hugs Will. Sound familiar? (Did anyone ever see this episode? I.e. can anyone vouch for the truth of this story? I can't.) Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 04:22:04 GMT From: tek@locus.ucla.edu (Ted Kim (ATW)) Subject: Re: Star Wars Influences sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >Apparently there was an episode of (ready?) LOST IN SPACE in which >Will's father found this evil alien mask, see, and put it on, and >it ... (Did anyone ever see this episode? I.e. can anyone vouch >for the truth of this story? I can't.) Yes, I remember seeing this episode a long time ago. I don't recall all the details, but it went something like this: For some reason, the women of the LOST IN SPACE crew were occupied or otherwise out of the picture. The alien mask tries to convince Will and the others that his father has been abducted, and that they must modify the Jupiter II in order to give chase. Of course, Will figures out whats really happening and so on. As to whether this has anything to do with STAR WARS. Well, yes his father is masked and temporarily evil. But that's about as similar as the stories get. ted ARPAnet: TEK@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU UUCP: ... !ucbvax!ucla-cs!tek ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 18:00:41 GMT From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams) Subject: Re: Star Wars influences and planets jjw@celerity.UUCP (Jim ) writes: > What I like best about Star Wars is the way it imitates and > reflects so many previous works. I find it strange that the tone > of the discussion seems to be derogatory, as if this imitation was > a fault. I like the discussion because being aware of these > influences increases my enjoyment of the films. What`s original > about Star Wars is the way all these influences have been > lovingly, and carefully combined in a quality manner. Part of great literature, and particularly poetry, is sticking in references to other great works to enhance the literary value of the current work (which is why it is so hard to read great poetry: to understand the poem you need to have read all the other poems written before it). One thing I liked about "The Wrath of Khan" was its references to "Moby Dick", "Paradise Lost", and Platos' eulogy for Socrates (or vice versa; I can never keep their names straight). The trend these days in science fiction movies (most notably those made by Lucas and Spielberg) is to stick in references to earlier science fiction movies (and movies in general) to enhance the value of the movie they are making. The aliens in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" and even E.T. resembled the alien we saw in "War of the Worlds," for example. "Star Wars" is a prime example of this. The only time when this fails overall is when there are too many references to earlier works and not enough substance in the current movie, most notably in "Gremlins." Karen Williams g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 18:19:06 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Errata on various subjects There're a few postings in SFL that bear correcting. It's easier for all if I do it all in one posting rather than "n" separate messages. From: lsuc!jimomura (Jim Omura) > ...As far as who could be taken as having ripped off from the > other, I believe Star Wars' first screening predates Kirby's New > Gods... No it doesn't. Kirby's New Gods Tetralogy (THE FOREVER PEOPLE, THE NEW GODS, MR. MIRACLE, and JIMMY OLSEN) were published circa 1971. STAR WARS didn't appear until 1977, though Lucas developed the story earlier. >>rakes in money by the truckload for stolen ideas, Jack Kirby can't >>make a cent off those very ideas. > > Wellll, I don't think Jack Kirby is starving exactly.... Actually, as a comment to the previous poster, Kirby *is* making money off of the New Gods stuff. DC did something that was almost unheard of in the industry. When the "Super Powers" figures were licensed, DC asked Kirby to redesign the characters, which gave him a royalty from the licensing that he wouldn't have gotten otherwise. From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa (Dave Wegener) > ...I obtained my copy of [WALL OF SERPENTS] by mail from Phantasia > Press... They issued it in hardback... about 2 or 3 years ago. I > haven't seen it in paperback, but it might well be out there... The Phantasia edition came out *eight* years ago, not "2 or 3". It was followed a year later by a Dell paperback. From: watnot!dagibbs > I would like to correct you on the relationship between Marion > Zimmer Bradley and Paul Edwin Zimmer; they are not sister/brother, > they are married. They may be married (actually, I don't know about Paul), but not to each other. They are indeed siblings. Bradley's full name is Marion Zimmer Bradley Breen. She's married to Walter Breen, who still (I think) runs the Friends of Darkover group. The "Bradley" comes from her first husband, Robert Bradley; the "Zimmer" from her father, Leslie Zimmer. My source is R. Reginald's SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY LITERATURE, VOLUME 2: AUTHOR BIOGRAPHIES (Gale Press, 1979). What's yours? From: phoenix!dykimber > Silent Running, with Bruce Dern: a classic among classics, it > predates 2001 and it's just...well, a must see. Not quite. 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY was released in 1968, SILENT RUNNING in 1972. It was Doug Trumbull's work on 2001 that gave him the pull to direct SILENT RUNNING. From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Dick Botting) > I have heard other people find the following influences on > StarWars... [...] Spielberg refers to wanting C3P0 to look like > a Fritz Lang(?) Robot. It's Lucas, not Spielberg. The latter had nothing to do with STAR WARS. And by the way, the "Fritz Lang robot" referred to is the imitation Maria from the classic film METROPOLIS (1926). From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu > I saw both the British and American movies about the Triffids > although I have yet to read the book. The American version is a > typical trashy sf B-movie... The British version was 5 hour-long > segments where the acting, special effects, and plot were far > superior. Not to counter your comparison of the two, but the 1963 film was British as well, not American. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 17:01 EST From: KGEISEL%cgi.com@relay.cs.net Subject: More Gardner F. Fox If someone IS compiling a list of works by Fox, they should be aware of his very popular "Niall of the Far Travels" fantasy series written for _Dragon_ magazine. This is some of the best magazine fiction I've ever read. Shadow of a Demon #2 Beyond the Wizard Fog #5 The Stolen Sacrifice #13 The Thing from the Tomb #23 The Eyes of Mavis Deval #33 The Cube from Beyond #36 The Cup of Golden Death #38 The Lure of the Golden Godling #44 and Out of the Eons in _Dragontales_, a special one-time anthology published by _Dragon_ in 1980. This is probably not available any more. Its NOT in the TSR back issue catalog. Fox was truly a great writer. He was also very prolific. A compilation of his works would be difficult, to say the least. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 15:46:59 GMT From: ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (ROBERT LEONE) Subject: Photography at sf cons Hi! I'm going to write a guide for photography at sf cons, and I'd appreciate any help you can give me. I've already posted to rec.photo for technical information (although if I get some from here I'll be very appreciative). What I'd like to know are manners and customs. Things like not using flash during the masquerade (is this true) and no cameras in the art display room (always true). My intended audience ranges from people who just bought disc cameras to experienced newspaper photogs, from people who go to 8 cons a year to utter mundanes (I've been to two cons, so you'll have to tell me a lot of stuff), from 13 year old attendees to their grandparents. I want information, but I can't get it by hook or by crook. Thank you in advance. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 21:38:00 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!spock@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: The perfect (??) creature I have a question for any creative science-fiction lovers: I once tried to create a "perfect" creature. If I were able to make a living breathing creature, HOW WOULD I DESIGN IT ???? I would like some opinions about, say, how many arms, for example would be most efficient. This IS NOT limited to number of arms! It doesn't need to fit into OUR society, I can make up it's society depending on it's body and it's abilities. (like if it's more intellectual, then it would probably be more of a scientific society :-) I'm trying to figure out what they might breathe. Maybe hydrogen, since it's so abundant, but the heavier elements are more attracted by a planet's gravity, so it might be a slightly heavier element. Water is almost a must, simply because it is one of the FEW (anyone know the others) compounds that will change into a liquid when put under pressure, or that will float on itself as a solid in liquid ( helpful for life off shore ). Anyway should it be a predator (eyes in front) or prey (eyes on top or side) If it's prey than it must either live with that fear, or must be able to (or even to have already) overcome the threat. If you have any ideas on what type of body, mind, fears, food, etc. it should have either answer or e-mail, please. PS I figure, that it can't fly, so that it will have to "invent" a flying machine, so that it will think of how to build a spaceship easier. Joe Christensen {cepui,ihnp4,uiucdcs}!bradley!bucc2!spock ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 29 Apr 87 0848-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #188 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Apr 87 0848-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #188 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 29 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 188 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Apr 87 03:58:12 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@RUTGERS.EDU (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay Stuart Friedberg writes: > It seems obvious to me, if not to the author of the essay, that >one of the points Heinlein is making is *not* how great rational >anarchy is, but rather how close to the edge *all* social >organizations are. That moral philosophy is great as far as it >goes, and it doesn't go far enough to put bread on the table. Look >at the scene where Mannie is thrown in jail for showing his family >portrait in Kentucky! On the surface, Heinlein is showing how >irrational those degenerate Earthies are. However, while the >prejudices of the Lunies are rationalized, and the prejudices of >the Earthies are shown in bad light, they both have prejudices! It >is only because Heinlein made the irrationalities, moral >compromises, and prejudices of his protagonists so apparent that >the essayist is able to complain about the surface contradictions. I think there is more to it than that. I might agree with this point were it not for two trends in Heinlein's work. First of all, there are vanishingly few Heinlein books I can name where there is much of a semblance of a thin veneer of civilization to break down. Au contraire: in most books it evident from early on that the world is a rough-and-tumble sort of place where one must work at survival without the expectation of cooperation from others. And while one may quibble with the political implications of this, there is a certain mindset which joins them all. I think that our fair reviewer has gotten things wrong, simply because the common thread of the various books lies in another place. But the criticisms aren't totally out of place; the tension which one would expect between self-reliance on the one hand and cooperation on the other tends to get resolved in favor of self-reliance and quite often the principal players accomplish this by managing to be in command and making up the rules under which cooperation will take place. Whether this is good or bad is, of course, a matter of one's outlook. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 12:22:27 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay I just received the following letter in net mail, and since its author said he would have loved to post it but his system won't allow postings, I am posting it for him... From: seismo!harvard!CC5.BBN.COM!sdenbest I find that I disagree with every aspect of the article you published, for the following reason. It makes the following assumption: IF a character is the protagonist of a story AND IF that character is sympathetic AND IF that character espouses a strong ideological opinion THEN the character is a mouthpiece for the author, who also espouses that opinion. Now, that is a dangerous assumption to make for any author, but for no-one is it as dangerous as for Heinlein. His sympathetic protagonists have advocated every governmental form from constitutional monarchy (Double Star) to military martial law (Sixth column), benevolent meritocracy (Glory Road), rule by unbridled capitalists (The Man Who Sold The Moon), etc. In the case of The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, perhaps Heinlein is deliberately setting up Prof Paz for a fall. Perhaps he doesn't think that anarchy is such a good thing after all. Or maybe, (dare we whisper it) he is just trying to tell a good story and really isn't trying to preach at all - he has put those ideologies into his characters simply because he is very good at character development. Could it be that Heinlein is simply a good author whose characters are not one-dimensional? If this is the case, then your quoted criticism falls completely down, because it criticizes the beliefs of the CHARACTERS, NOT the AUTHOR! I would have loved to have posted this sucker, but we don't seem to be able to do that here. Steven Den Beste I might as well take this time to comment: It usually is dangerous to assume that a character is a spokesperson for the author, and the essay posted does tread on thin ice here in that respect. However, I don't think that the ice here is all *that* thin, since, as the above posting points out (accidentally, I'm sure} is that every time Heinlein has a character who exhibits a strong ideological viewpoint and likes to preach about it, *that character always advocates a rigid, elitist, intervening government.* This is true even in TMIAHM, where the character *supposedly* advocates anarchy, but is at *heart* a tyrannical elitist, as the essay points out. See, the Prof is most content when *he himself* has maximal personal freedom, *regardless* of the amount of freedom anyone *else* has. In TMIAHM, the Prof finds that the best way for *him* to get *his* most freedom is to become a tyrannical dictator! Note: Heinlein openly supported the Vietnam War, advocating its continuation!! This is one of the reasons I believe that the highly conservative nature of his characters' ideological viewpoints is *his very own* viewpoint. He doesn't advocate freedom: he advocates powerful government so that he can be one of the power elite. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 17:30:24 GMT From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh) Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay (*SPOILERS*) MASSIVE SPOILERS: I talk about many books. I think before this discussion goes too far it would be well if we looked at other books with similar themes that Heinlein has written. Take a look at Farnam's Freehold: we see a man who bucks society to be safe from nuclear war by building his own basement shelter. The book ends up with e and his wife running some sort of store in the lawless aftermath (note the minefield in the front yard). The protagonists are apparently much happier at the end than at the beginning. Second case in point: Beyond this Horizon; a story about a semi-lawless future society in which anyone may carry a weapon and duel with others. Those not carrying weapons are sort of second-class citizens (i.e. the be-weaponed may push ahead of them in line, etc.) The protagonist is the prime member of the star genetically-selected line. He caries an antique Colt 45 (if I'm not mistaken) and is polite but won't let anyone stand in his way if he feels he's being wronged. Third: Some of the alternate societies in The Number of the Beast (a lousy book, Heinlein's first step into mediocrity). One such society had a holiday called "The Day They Lynched the Lawyers" after beauracracy weighed things down too much. If I remember correctly this same society practiced "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" for certain types of crimes (injuring someone while driving drunk was the example given). Heinlein also talked about certain "saner" methods for enforcing certain laws (like appraisals for property taxes). Fourth: The novel Friday. This book could probably be considered the stereotypic Heinlein novel; all the usual elements are there (a Heinlein hero, a libertarian paradise, open sexuality, . . .) The hero Friday is a cool and accomplished killer. At the beginning of the novel she kills a man by shear reaction (the man has not attacked her or even appeared as if he were going to) and finds that he is indeed an enemy agent. The hero visits the country of California and finds a rich, well-developed libertarian paradise. The hero is aided by friends who own a personal shelter/hide-away/fortress (a constantly recurring theme). Fifth: All of the novels with Lazarus Long, a man who feels he is above the law because he is older than it and knows he will outlive it. Lazarus Long frequenly owns his own space ship, does solitary trading, settles down sometimes on frontier planets and leaves when they get too bureaucratic (note move from Earth to Secundus and then to Tertius). Lazarus Long is THE classic Heinlein hero. The people he likes to associate with are the hard-working, freedom loving type. In The Cat Who Walks Through Walls a tourist to Tertius is shot for cutting into a line. (The shooter is tried on the spot by the witnesses and the shooting is declared "Homicide in the Public Interest". Other interesting books with these same sorts of ideas are: The Door Into Summer, Tunnel in the Sky, Stranger in a Strange Land, . . . well, practically everything. The Heinlein hero has a PhD, shoots straight (and always has a weapon handy), and most of all, WON'T BE PUSHED. He/she is a rugged individualist who battles bureaucracy and organized insanity and wins. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 17:17:32 GMT From: rochester!kodak!sprankle@RUTGERS.EDU (Daniel R. Lance) Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: >It usually is dangerous to assume that a character is a >spokesperson for the author, and the essay posted does tread on >thin ice here in that respect. However, I don't think that the ice >here is all *that* thin, since, as the above posting points out >(accidentally, I'm sure} is that every time Heinlein has a >character who exhibits a strong ideological viewpoint and likes to >preach about it, *that character always advocates a rigid, elitist, >intervening government.* Never say never...also never say every...unless you have proof. Two of Heinlein's more recent novels -- *Friday* and *The Cat Who Walks Through Walls* contain characters which are very much *against* a rigid, elitist, intervening government (Friday and Colin Campbell/Richard Ames/etc.) I also remember a certain short story which I *think* was in the anthology *The Menace From Earth* which deals with a rigid theocratic United States and efforts of a group of people to depose the government. Heinlein's governments are often rigid and bureaucratic, but his characters vary in their reactions to it-- compare *Starship Troopers* with *Cat...*. I don't really see any evidence for your statement above; I think your negative opinion of Heinlein's writings is affecting your judgement. > This is true even in TMIAHM, where the character *supposedly* >advocates anarchy, but is at *heart* a tyrannical elitist, as the >essay points out. See, the Prof is most content when *he himself* >has maximal personal freedom, *regardless* of the amount of freedom >anyone *else* has. > In TMIAHM, the Prof finds that the best way for *him* to get *his* >most freedom is to become a tyrannical dictator! I won't comment on *The Moon is a Harsh Mistress* (no abbreviations, please, also no flames...) as I haven't read it lately. Perhaps I will... > Note: Heinlein openly supported the Vietnam War, advocating its >continuation!! Perhaps someone out there can confirm or deny this. >This is one of the reasons I believe that the highly conservative >nature of his characters' ideological viewpoints is *his very own* >viewpoint. He doesn't advocate freedom: he advocates powerful >government so that he can be one of the power elite. I don't see this as being true at all. Daniel R. Lance sprankle@kodak.uucp lanced@ei.ecn.purdue.edu ...{decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!lanced ...{harvard,seismo}!rochester!kodak!sprankle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 87 14:31 EDT From: "J. Spencer Love" Subject: Re: Trapped in a Cage of his Own Design Just at the moment I will refrain from a point by point demolition of this critique of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", but I can easily be provoked into generating one (or even by request, though that seems unlikely). This reminds me of flames past on the subject of "Farnham's Freehold", or any of a number of other works by Heinlein. All of them seem to make the same assumption, and certain adherents defend said (in my opinion) beyond-totally-bogus assumption vociferously and with ad hominem attacks on those who point it out to them (but all of us can play at that game). Because famous SF critics (I suppose Michael Moorcock qualifies, and perhaps others) are capable of holding this position, does that make it somehow legitimate? Throughout the essay, it appears that the critic seems convinced that Heinlein in particular (and authors in general?) always place their actual opinions in the mouths of their protagonists. If the protagonist makes a mistake and learns from it, then the character must be contradicting him(?)self, and if the character has a point of view which might charitably be called refreshing (or more accurately, jarring), then the author must be warped for holding the views that his character stands for. I find the characterization of Manuel Garcia O'Kelly Davis to be a reasonable rationalization of behaviors which are actually observed. You wouldn't expect the autobiography of one of these characters to be told from the usual point of view of the writers of history; that's the point. I found Hugh Farnham depressingly true-to-life. I know, from experience in both writing and reading, that misinterpretation is possible, so that apparent conflicts can arise when trying to explain values. Two values which conflict can easily exist in one mind; life is a tightrope walk balancing conflicting goals. When each is stated in its own context, the conflicts are readily apparent, yet there is additional unarticulated information which tells you how the character or person would choose to resolve the conflict between the goals. Are there readers out there who never have such complexities in their own lives? The critics (whom I wish to criticize) seem uniformly impressed with themselves that they are the only ones who can read "between the lines" and see the hidden flaws that the characters don't seem to notice. They are mystified, even stunned, that so many people could *like* this piece of trash whose author was so stupid he didn't even see the flaws he put in his own work. Hubris, anyone? Perhaps I am being overly charitable, or even misguided, in being very impressed with Heinlein and certain other authors who can write on this level. I often disagree with the views which Heinlein's characters hold. I don't often disagree with what I perceive as the message the author puts there. There are real values in this man's work, not the least of which is that reading his books usually provokes the reader to think. These straw men are placed there for us to react to, not for us to be brainwashed by. I am tempted to suppose that these critics are self-satirizing, by way of underlining the point that they are afraid that some of us didn't get. This seems reasonable since any form of author-worship such as they accuse us (people like me) of is dangerous; it is a mistake to respect the authority rather than the ideas lest you accept a bogus one on the strength of the (apparently?) good ones that came before. Nevertheless, I find their attacks on the author rude, and excessive for the purpose I ascribe. Perhaps it could better be stated that the necessity of putting up with rudeness is one of the prices we pay for what we understand as freedom; sometimes it seems (but really isn't so) that this price is too high. I haven't spoken with Mr. Moorcock on this subject, but I am willing to interpret his words as this sort of cautionary tale; some of the supporting cast of network flamers, however, don't seem to be *intentionally* satirizing themselves. Since the views which I perceive in this work are often implied rather than actually stated, I suppose in some sense I am agreeing with myself. After all, I don't *know*, by direct interview or mind-reading, that RAH actually intended for me to get the message I got. However, I am not a pan-universal solipsist. Wrong, I may be. Counterflames, anyone? My apologies for typos; I'm not using a screen editor and don't have time to really tune this response. Spencer ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 29 Apr 87 0925-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #189 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Apr 87 0925-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #189 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 29 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 189 Today's Topics: Films - Good Sf Movies (3 msgs) & La Jetee & Title Request Answer & A Voyage to Arcturus & Between Time and Timbuktu Silent Running (2 msgs) & Time after Time Worst SF Movies (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Apr 1987 12:08:12 PDT Subject: Re: Good SF Movies From: Douglas M. Olson Only saw one person recommend my favorite animated flick; WIZARDS. This was reportedly done by Ralph Bakshi as a warmup before he butchered _The Fellowship of the Ring_. WIZARDS was scary, cute, incredibly VISUAL. I absolutely loved the climax, where the good guy beats the bad guy through a cynical use of his own dirty tricks... no goody-goody moralisim here. Oh, this was thousands of years post-holocaust, which meant the animators had great fun with mutants. I used to see this annually on campus, but having left that world years ago, its harder to find. Someone else bemoaned the lack of "seriousness" in the film, DAY OF THE COMET. I sorta thought it was intended as a spoof... (Sorry not to include original poster's quotes, the net is backed up today and I don't want to edit the digest to find them again...) Doug (dolson @ Ada20.isi.edu) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 12:24:09 PDT (Tuesday) From: PMacay.PA@Xerox.COM Subject: 'Man Who Fell to Earth' is Good???? >> I would also add "The Man Who Fell to Earth" as another >>excellent science-fiction movie. David Bowie is great in it. > >I saw _The Man Who Fell to Earth_ about a year ago. I did not enjoy >it at all. It just dragged on and on and nothing happened. Or if >something did happen, the viewer was totally lost as to what it >was. > Also, Bowie neither added nor subtracted anything from the film. I also agree, when someone said "The Man Who Fell to Earth" was an excellent movie, sci fi or otherwise, I almost fell off my chair. I had heard this was a good film so I went to a midnight showing about a year ago. Well maybe it was because it was 2:00 a.m., although that's never stopped me from having a good time before, but I thought it was really bad. Anyone in the San Jose, California area know where there is a good video rental store that has these old classics? I'm not saying this was a great movie, but how about the remake of 'Invasion from Mars', I thought this was a real hoot! Believe it or not, I liked it. Mizz Ratchet was at her best!!! I've never seen the original, is this rentable? Favorites I could watch anytime have mostly been covered, Forbidden Planet, Day the Earth Stood Still, Day of the Triffids, Earth vs the Flying Saucers, Beast from 20,000 fathoms, 20 million Miles to Earth, It came from Beneath the Sea (I'm a Harryhausen nut!), and thanks to whoever mentioned 'Them', a really great creature feature. The remake of the story 'Who Goes there?' was excellent, just can't think of the film. The original wasn't too bad either. Pete ------------------------------ Date: MONDAY 04/27/87 11:54:05 PST From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO@POMONA> Subject: Re: GOOD SF Movies At the risk of being terminally obnoxious, I have to say that the people who recommended 'Terminator' and 'Buckeroo Banzai' as GOOD Sf movies must be using a far, far different definition for the word 'good' than I am used to!! 'BB' is more of a camp cult film than a SF movie; 'Rocky Horror' has SF aspects, but I wouldn't put it on a list of 'Good SF Movies'. A lot of my favorites have already been mentioned, but here are some more: 'Runaway' -- All the man's electronic wizardry starts to turn against him; we find out that Gene Simmons (Yes, the singer from KISS) and Tom Selleck really *can* act. I'm *not* saying this movie is perfect; there are some interesting ideas in it, however. 'Battle Beyond The Stars' -- Even leaving Sybil Danning in skimpy costumes out of it, I thought this movie was interesting, simply because it doesn't glorify war as so many movies do. The peaceful Akira pay a heavy price defending their planet.... Main characters die, in this film. 'Flash Gordon' -- If you take this as a monumental put-on, it's great fun!! My favorite character in the whole movie is Vultan -- lines like 'Impetuous boy!!.... Oh well, who wants to live forever??' make it great fun to watch. 'Flesh Gordon' -- Yes, this IS an X-rated film; if you want to see it, be sure to get the original uncut version, as the 'R-ified' version is next to impossible to follow. Same caveats as for the version just previous, but throw in a good deal of tolerance for gratuitous sex. Funny if you are in the right mood, and there IS some excellent model work and animation in the film. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Apr 87 13:44:46 EST From: David Watson Subject: La Jetee > There is/was an short atmospheric black-and-white film which was > set in Paris, about a man who was so obsessed with one childhood > event that he could be forced to travel in time... It is also a > post-'holocaust' story. > > Two questions - > 1. What was the title? > 2. Was it based on a story? I can only answer #1: This was the short film "La Jetee" by Chris Marker. It's one of my favorite movies, period. A supremely effective technique used by Marker was that, except for a single poignant moment, the story was told in photographic stills, a device which reinforced the feeling that the film was somehow really a documentary of future events. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 04:00:55 GMT From: seismo!utai!hub.toronto.edu!ping@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Title Request > I also have a question. Does Anyone remember the following plot. > " Due to two tests with Nuclear Weapons (One US and one USSR) > Earth leaves it's orbit and 'sets the controls for the heart of > the sun'. It's kind of a hot :-) story." > > It's, I think, a British Movie, or at Least the place of action is > London. I think this movie is called "The Day the Earth Caught Fire". ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 19:15:16 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS (film) From: uwmacc!oyster > And if you hated the book, try watching the movie some time. > It qualifies as the *only* movie I've ever walked out on, and I > even sat through Def-Con 4. I think I was one of the last to > leave, though, if that counts for anything. Quite frankly, I thought you were out of your mind. While not as knowledgeable as Mark Leeper in matters cinematic, I had never heard of a film version of A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS, and it's not listed in Phil Hardy's THE FILM ENCYCLOPEDIA: SCIENCE FICTION. Son of a b**ch, though, if it isn't listed in Walt Lee's REFERENCE GUIDE TO FANTASTIC FILMS as being an amateur film made in 1971! You learn something new every day. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Filmography is my pastime"> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 87 15:25 EDT From: Subject: Between Time and Timbuktu Another good SF (ish) movie was _Between Time and Timbuktu_. Is was a collection of fairly nightmarish visits to future societies, with some humorous parodies of network news coverage of space shots interwoven. It also had a great quote about the importance of man in the universe (but I wouldn't want to ruin the whole movie . . .) I think it was written by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. Rob Malouf Marine Sciences Research Center State University of New York Stony Brook, NY 11794-5000 RMALOUF@SBCCMAIL.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 17:50:32 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: Re: Question about _Silent Running_ ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU (ROBERT LEONE) writes: >This material can be looked up in many standard movie guides. You >might also try the movie rental catalogs at your campus events >office for this information. I just happen to know off the top of >my head that one of the three scriptwriters was Michael (Mike) >Cimino, who later went into directoral history with the $70 million >box office disaster Heaven's Gate. Silent Running starred Bruce >Dern, had two Joan Baez songs in the soundtrack, and the overall >incidental music was done by classical music comedian Peter >Shickele, the madman responsible (for being) "P.D.Q. Bach." Robert >the Unix Rookie. Another of the writers was Steven (HSB) Bochco. The two Joan Baez songs were "Rejoice in the Sun" and "silent Running" Like Robert said, look it up. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) (..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker) ------------------------------ Date: TUESDAY 04/28/87 17:28:31 PST From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO@POMONA> Subject: Re: Silent Running Mike MacLeod writes: > I see here and there Silent Running named as a good SF movie. > > Now, I can stand hearing ships whoosh through soundless vacuum, and > Close Encounter - E.T. aliens that are so evolutionarily unfit that > they'd never make it out of the gate. But when the plot > complication in the movie ("The plants are dying 'cause there's not > enough >sunlight them, that's absurd. As I recall, NONE of the men on the Valley Forge were botanists; they were just interplanetary truckers hired to drive the plants around the solar system until the (projected) refoliation of the Earth, which of course didn't happen; Bruce Dern's character simply fell in love with the plants and didn't want them destroyed. George Madison ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 19:28:18 GMT From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams) Subject: Time after Time One of my favorite movies of all time (no pun intended) is "Time After Time," in which Jack the Ripper and H.G. Wells use the Time Machine to travel forward into the 20th century. The movie was directed (and written?) by Nicholas Meyer, who also directed "The Wrath of Khan" and "The Day After." Karen Williams g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 87 00:41:49 EDT From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: On a lighter note... Aw, *everybody* has a big list of their favorite SF movies. Never mind that. How about the WORST SF movies of all time! The dogs on the Late Late Show that curdle milk, make the cat's fur fall out, and drive your long-suffering mate to drink. Some personal "favorites:" Plan 9 From Outer Space Can never be equalled. Battle Beyond The Stars Came mighty close though, with Richard Thomas. Galaxy of Terror When the best part of the movie is seeing Erin Moran's head blow up, you KNOW you're in trouble. Galaxina Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Zardoz DOUBLE Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. And so on. Granted, there are enough bad SF&F movies out there to gag a rhino, but I'm sure that every movie fan has some that linger in his or her memory in the same way that a pebble lingers in his shoe...Send *yours* in! RG Traynor UMass-Boston ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 08:57:39 GMT From: amq@topaz.rutgers.edu (Amqueue) Subject: Re: On a lighter note... From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >that. How about the WORST SF movies of all time! The dogs on the >Late > Zardoz DOUBLE Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. now now, Zardoz has two things going for it: an unspeakably bitter cynicism, and a mostly undressed Sean Connery. Why do you think it is so bad? I happen to like it... amq ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 14:32:25 GMT From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte) Subject: Re: On a lighter note... amq@topaz.rutgers.edu (Amqueue) writes: >Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes: >>that. How about the WORST SF movies of all time! >> Zardoz DOUBLE Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. >now now, Zardoz has two things going for it: an unspeakably bitter >cynicism, and a mostly undressed Sean Connery. Why do you think it >is so bad? I happen to like it... I rather liked Zardoz when I saw it. Not for any GreatLiteraryValue, but just because it was so strange. One just has to laugh when all these people in ***MINOR SPOILER ALERT*** the vortexes are going around saying "Kill us! Kill us next! We want to die, too!" Or how about the apathetics? They're like something out of a Douglas Adams book. "Go ahead, brute." ins_bjjb@jhunix.BITNET picked out _Zardoz_ one time when we wanted to see a film, so you can blame him for contaminating me with it :-) On the serious side (if there really is one), it is an interesting story about what might happen if people really got what they want, immortality in a sensible universe. (Do I hear echoes of "Mr. Spock, these people aren't living; they're existing." ?) from _Zardoz_: "The penis is evil. It shoots seed to create new life. The gun is good." Matthew Belmonte Internet: BITNET: UUCP: ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 87 12:34 EDT From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: *Good*(ish) Sf movies Has anyone seen the movie _Zardoz_? It was a post holocaust movie, with Sean Connery. I understand it was one of the more obscure movies, but I enjoyed it. I was just wondering if anyone else had seen it and whether or not they liked it. Keith Anderson Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 19:15:47 GMT From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst (Meteora's chess From: partner) ) Subject: Zardoz (Spoilers) All right, I'm getting a little tired of people ragging on one of my favorite movies: Zardoz. If you're going to say, "Boy, that was a stinker!", how about providing some supporting evidence other than "*Everyone* thinks so!" I don't think the film promotes rape or brutality or macho behavior. Those actions are shown in the film for what they are; they are not glamorized. But they were necessary in the context of the film. I like Zardoz for the following reasons: 1) Style. It's as stylish as any other Boorman film I've seen (admittedly, I haven't seen Exorcist II :-)), many of which have received acclaim (e.g., Deliverance, Excalibur) for their style. You get scenes like Zed rising from the grain, the encounters in the Tabernacle, the flashbacks to the people's faces pressed against the barrier or Zed in the library... And, oh, that moody 2nd movement of Beethoven's 7th running through the film! 2) Theme. Zed learns from the Eternals, and the Eternals learn from Zed. Eternal manipulation of the Brutals is ended, and the promise of a "better tomorrow" is exemplified by Zed and (Charlotte Rampling)'s ("Carmella"?) child. A highly stratified world is forced into interaction between the "classes" (yes, the Eternals are all killed, but their knowledge is no longer being withheld from the Brutals. And without Arthur Frayn to provide ammunition, the Brutals' guns aren't going to permit them to rule unchallenged). 3) Humor. Boorman doesn't take himself completely seriously. He's telling a story of wild exaggerations, a fable, and he doesn't try to hide it. Friend's refusing to go to Second Level. "*Old* friend." Zed pulling the cart. The Wizard of Oz! It's a great, cinematic comic book. Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!rutgers!elbereth!cje ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 29 Apr 87 0941-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #190 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Apr 87 0941-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #190 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 29 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 190 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 21 Apr 87 17:49:39-CDT From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: more on Universal Translators I would like to add more to the discussion of universal translators in general, and and ST4 in particular. In response: From: Mike Garcia >I don't think that there needs to be any problem with the Universal >Translator not working with the Probe in Star Trek IV. >Conceptionally the machine would require feedback to allow it to >learn the language it is trying to communicate in. Perhaps the >Probe, which was sent to communicate with whales in the Earth's >oceans was not interested in (programmed to?) teaching space- or >land-creatures to speak whaleish. I'll buy this. I actually never stopped to consider, in my first posing of the question, that the probe was `dumb', i.e. was programmed only to respond to a certain sequence, and lacked any interpretative capabilities. In essence, it was looking for a `password', i.e. "give me the password or I'll vaporize your planet. Peter Webb adds: >From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU >>In ST4(Whales etc.), why the hell didn't they just use their magic >>universal translator to interpret the probe's probing? >I saw Leonard Nimoy speak at MIT on Tue, Mar 17, ..... ....He >wanted to make a point about the mystery of the universe, and the >unlikelyhood that we, as a race, will ever be able to understand >all of it. It is only arrogance, Nimoy claimed, to believe that >the concepts upon which the probe's language is based have any >analogue in human society. In other words, there is more that just >the language barrier to consider when trying to translate an alien >language; a common set of semantic devices (by which I mean >concepts that carry meaning) must exist as well. This is *exactly* my contention. Consider just the `simple' task of translating numbers. It's pretty easy within human languages. Many `primitive' cultures use 1,2,(3),many; all others use a base ten system. What if the six-toed sloth had evolved a higher intelligence? Could we assume they'd use a base 12? When approaching an alien language, should we instruct the UT on the number of toes the aliens have? Should we count teeth? Tentacles? Warts? Anyway, we can safely assume that the ancient Babylonians did not have 60 fingers, or even sixty fingers and toes; yet they used a base 60. Or what if the aliens used sign language? I suppose you could hook up the tricorder somehow to handle that possibility. What if they used ESP? Or any combination of spoken, signed or telepathic communication? How would the UT know if the aliens were communicating or just whistling a merry tune? The possibilities are endless, but I won't go on... The simple explanation for the existence of a UT in Star Trek is that it was as cheap a plot device as the transporter. Could you imagine every show starting: "Captains Log, stardate 666.666. We landed on planet Boogdy-boog. Nine months have passed as the linguistics team still struggles to......." The five year mission would be over in about 4 1/2 episodes. My personal opinion is that a UT is plausible for languages that have *already* been studied, at least somewhat, so that it might be programmable in perhaps the minimal sense of setting parameters, semantic or otherwise. Besides, who on earth wants to read subtitles off a TV screen when the Aliens are speaking?? ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 16:38:32 GMT From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!cvedc!mpease@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Pease) Subject: Re: ST:TNG Special Effects rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes: >Special effects for Star Trek:The Next Generation will be done by >Industrial Light and Magic (ILM to you initial-lovin folks). The >report comes from today's USA Today (4/21). This will be ILM's >first television series work. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think ILM did the SX for Battle Star Galactica. I think there was an article in National Geo. about ILM and they talked about how hard it was to make *stars* show up on the tube. Mark Pease Computervision 14952 N.W. Greenbrier Pkway Beavertion, Oregon 97006 (503)645-2410 ..tektronix.csnet!ogcvax.uucp!cvedc!mpease ..sun.arpa!cvbnet.uucp!cvedc!mpease ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 18:01:00 GMT From: nathan@eddie.mit.edu (Nathan Glasser) Subject: Re: ST:TNG Special Effects mpease@dewey.UUCP (Mark Pease) writes: >Correct me if I am wrong, but I think ILM did the SX for Battle >Star Galactica. I think the usual acronym for this is FX. (No, I am not trying to start/extend a discussion on acronyms.) I have no factual evidence to provide for you, but I really don't think that ILM was involved with that show. Nathan Glasser nathan@mit-eddie.uucp (usenet) nathan@xx.lcs.mit.edu (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 19:03:39 GMT From: buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu (Elliott Buchholz) Subject: Re: ST:TNG Special Effects mpease@dewey.UUCP (Mark Pease) writes: >Correct me if I am wrong, but I think ILM did the SX for Battle >Star Galactica. I think there was an article in National Geo. >about ILM and they talked about how hard it was to make *stars* >show up on the tube. Hmmm. I don't think so. In the book, "The Official Battlestar Galactica Scrapbook", they credit John Dykstra (of Star Wars fame) and associates. He also talks about the problems with the stars and the ships. Elliott Buchholz ARPA: buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu UUCP: rutgers!topaz!buchholz Bitnet: buchholz@zodiac.bitnet (201)-247-6544 201 Joyce Kilmer Ave New Brunswick, NJ 08901 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 13:52:34 GMT From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) Subject: Re: Star Trek: The Next Generation When I saw the following (abstracted) new crew list rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes: >SEEKING THE FOLLOWING SERIES REGULARS: > >CAPT. JULIAN PICARD -- A caucasian man in his 50's.... > .... a 'romantic' ... honor and duty.... mid-Atlantic accent > >NUMBER ONE (AKA WILLIAM RYKER) -- A 30-35 year old caucasian > >LT. COMMANDER DATA -- android ... exotic features > ... perfect physical condition ... very intelligent. >LT. TANYA YAR -- 26 year old woman of Ukranian decent > ... security chief. > ... has an almost obsessive devotion to protecting the ship ... >LT. DEANNA TROI -- An alien woman... 30 years old and quite beautiful > serves as the starship's Chief Psychologist.... > She and Number One are romantically involved. I was reminded of another TV series where the commander of a space craft is a male fitting the above description, romantically involved with the female medical officer/Psycologist, There is a resident alien female wandering about solving all the problems. (OK so there is a sex change...). The officers on the "bridge" also fit the above descriptions fairly well. That programme was "SPACE 1999". I began to get bad feelings. And then I saw >WESLEY CRUSHER -- .. appealing 15 year old caucasian boy > .. remarkable mind and photographic memory .. > .. acting-ensign. ... normal teenager. > and >BEVERLY CRUSHER -- Wesley's 35 year old mother. > and >LT. GEORDI LaFORGE -- a 20-25 year old black man, blind from birth. > ... Should also be able to do comedy well. and I knew my initial feelings were correct. This series, based on the above cast line up, is going to be one of the most monumental flops ever seen on TV. I hope I am wrong, but... any show relying on "cute" kids with "remarkable" minds helping to run a ship full of stereotypes is going to sink without trace. Or even worse, develop into the new A-TEAM. Bob Gray ERCC ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 15:45:13 GMT From: seismo!utai!hub.toronto.edu!ping@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: ST:TNG Special Effects > I'm new to the system, and don'y know if this has been said > before, but here goes. I read in todays paper (USA today), that > in the new series, and I quote, " ... the humans have made peace > with the Klingons, who'll be part of the crew ..." It is well known that Klingons assassinate their superiors to get their promotions, so I'm not so sure it is a good idea to have them on a Starship. Should be entertaining though. By the way what happened to the Romulans? Did the Feds and the Klingons gang up to destroy them? Somehow I don't think this is likely, the Romulans being such an intelligent enemy. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 87 17:43:44 GMT From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!tom@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: ST:TNG Special Effects "Did the Feds and the Klingons gang up to destroy [the Romulans]?" Sigh. To me, the news that the Federation and the Klingons are at peace is wonderful. As for the Romulans, surely Federation policy is to make peace with its neighbors, not to commit genocide. Robert J. Sawyer c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 17:57:45 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: ST:TNG - responses to basic information Okay, about a week ago, I posted (with much help) a rundown on Star Trek: The Next Generation (STTNG). Since then I've seen several (even before then I saw some) which look at a four line character description and say "This is a stupid character, this series is going to stink, what a flop, it's just like and we ALL know how bad that is." C'mon folks, the success or failure, both in quality and ratings of any television series is a combination of factors. These include (but are not limited to): The original concept, how it is implemented on a day to day basis by story editors, directors, producers, etc., The actors, The WRITERS, time period it's shown (yes this can impact quality), modification once several episodes are "in the can"... There's a story related in The Making of Star Trek (TMOST) in which the tv critics are brought on the set for the first time after getting a big speech about how the show was aimed at adults to find this pointed eared guy dripping green blood and saying "Captain, the monster attacked me!" (from The Man Trap). I can just see the reaction of netters to the third hand account of that scene! By the way, one of the reasons I didn't post all this information in the past (the STTNG stuff) is that I was specifically asked not to by people in the Star Trek offices. Their reason (a valid one I think) is that while things are developing and changing, they don't want to have to deal with namecalling based on incomplete information that may already be out of date. It was only after David Gerrold revealed most if not all of what was in the posting in Starlog, that I felt the request was moot. Please don't prove me wrong. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 19:42:33 GMT From: dick@cs.vu.nl (Dick Grune) Subject: Startrek Loose End I have just seen Star Trek IV, TVH, having no idea what it would bring. (It arrived here, that is in Holland, only last week, and we don't get rec.arts.startrek either, sigh!) Of course I love the movie, and I've read the book in the meantime (the book had been available here for a couple of months, no, no praise for self-restraint, just the usual academic overload), but it does not solve one Major Loose End left over from ST II & III. Dr. Carol Marcus may still be on Delta, mourning, but she is the only one left who has technical information on project Genesis. She may not have the complete blueprints, but definitely knows and understands enough to be very interesting for any person wishing to duplicate the research and to be in constant danger! Now here's a Damsel in Distress, if there ever was one, dragons all around, ranging from local dictators who dislike the tentacle colour of the people on the next planet to benevolent civilized societies, who will never use the device, but want in anyway, just in case; and who's going to rescue her? He'll not only have to rescue her, but also have to put the knowledge that Genesis can exist back into the box (or defuse the knowledge, my preferred option). And not through time travel I hope. Dick Grune Vrije Universiteit de Boelelaan 1081 1081 HV Amsterdam the Netherlands dick@cs.vu.nl ...!mcvax!vu44!dick ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 20:08:33 GMT From: seismo!yale!sshefter@RUTGERS.EDU (Bret A. Shefter) Subject: Re: ST:TNG Special Effects ping@uthub.UUCP writes: >By the way what happened to the Romulans? Did the Feds and the >Klingons gang up to destroy them? Somehow I don't think this is >likely, the Romulans being such an intelligent enemy. I assume that they are going to leave Romulans out of the new series en- tirely, so that the movies can play around with them if they wish. I heard they were going to do the same for Klingons, but that idea seems to have gone by the wayside. On the other hand, we already knew that the Federation and the Klingon Empire were going to ally at some point... shefter-bret@yale.ARPA shefter@yalecs.BITNET ...!ihnp4!hsi!yale!shefter ...!{seismo,decvax}!yale!shefter ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 18:16:28 GMT From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) Subject: STIV : TVH I have only just seen STIV, so I may be a bit late too enter the Great Translator Debate. However, I have a couple of other points. First, in STIII, the Klingon Bird of Prey had to deactivate its cloak in order to beam Kruge up from the Genesis planet, which is when Chekov first saw it. In STIV, the new owners not only learned how to operate Klingon machinery, they learned to do it better than the Klingons, as people were beamed in and out of the fully cloaked Bird of Prey! Besides, in the book of STIII at least, the cloaking device was *destroyed*, not merely damaged. Secondly, I assume no-one tried playing football or anything else in the park where the ship landed! Incidentally, has anyone considered the possibility of Kirk and co. going back to the "latter half of the 20th century" and giving Gene Roddenberry some genuine technical assistance? Adrian Hurt JANET: adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian ARPA: adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 16:13:24 GMT From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu (Capt. Gym Quirk) Subject: Re: GOOD sf ping@uthub.UUCP writes: > From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >> No one has mentioned THE TERMINATOR. I thougt it was one of >> the best SF movies of this decade... Also I would include ST II, >> and only ST II in my list (not I, not III, and not IV). > >FINALLY someone has mentioned an ST movie. I thought ST II was a >great movie too, but ST I is by far the best -- it is in the real >Star Trek spirit. I beg to differ. ST-TMP may have had the best SCIENCE FICTION of all the ST movies, but as a cinematic production, it leaves MUCH to be desired. The plotting is loose to non-existant(sp). The special effects are ovedone (We can blame Star Wars for htis). And it is the most BORING of the four. I admit that the other movies aren't as thought provoking as ST-TMP, but the 'message' of ST-TMP gets lost in the yawns. T. Kogoma cs2633ba@izar.UUCP cs2633ba@izar.UNM.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 29 Apr 87 0951-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #191 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Apr 87 0951-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #191 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 29 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 191 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Single Terrain Planets (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Apr 87 23:13:54 GMT From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: In case they do make SW-I (Get a Real Planet!) castell@UMass.BITNET writes: > As a matter of fact, multi-terrain planets like this one are > probably the exception rather than the rule. I think I'll differ, or maybe I'll agree. Depends. Any habitable planet ought to have oceans. There should be desert land areas on these planets. I don't see any reason to believe in a planet that is all desert, or all forest. All ocean may also be unlikely. However, it seems likely that there will be life-supporting planets that have more of one type of climate than Earth--such worlds would tend to be simplified to be desert-worlds, forest worlds, etc. For instance, if a planet had, say, one third of its surface covered with water, and fairly large continents, it ought to have large areas of desert. Such a planet may well be called a desert planet. Note that the planet would have oceans, and beaches, and forests (and maybe ice caps). It would still likely be called a desert planet. I'm not sure where you would put the spaceport, though--near the ocean where the people are, or in the desert where land is cheap. A couple of thousand of years ago, the Earth would have done a good imitation of a forest planet--it had oceans, ice caps, deserts, mountains, and such, but a good part of its surface was covered with trees. It shouldn't be hard to imagine a similar planet with a slightly thicker atmosphere, so that none of the terrain is above timberline. This hypothetical planet may also be missing the ice caps, so nearly all the land surface could be covered with trees. There would almost certainly be plains and deserts, but a larger than normal portion would be covered with trees, and the planet would be called a forest planet. Oh well. Enough of that. You can do the bit of adding more water, or making it colder or hotter or whatever. Anyway, the point was that planets are big, and saying the entire planet looks like a little area is silly, and it would be nice if they would use a little variety when visiting planets. I agree. It might be nice to go to a resort town on Tatoine. However, that might confuse the movie-going public, unless you had some rather clumsy explanatory dialog: Princess: Where are we going NOW (whine)?? Fluke: (patiently) The resorts of Tattoine. P: The resorts of Tattoine? Ugg! Tattoine is a desert planet. F: Look airhead, a planet isn't like one of your imperial parks-- a planet, any planet is big, and has got some variety to it. Calling Tattoine a desert planet is like calling a Vargan Slime Bat delicate because it has such dainty pink toenails. Oh well. you get the idea. david rickel decwrl!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 87 23:05:44 GMT From: seismo!sdcsvax!sdsu!polyslo!cquenel@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher From: Quenelle) Subject: Re: Single Terrain Planets Hmmm, I don't have these movies memorized, but when we hear a planet called "The Ice Planet Groomendal" or whatever, do they explicitly say "This planet is covered 100.01% with ice." Are we supposed to assume this ? Or only assume that the planet is /for the most part/ ice, and the action we see takes place in those areas ? I fully understand the Flash Gorden syndrome with the Mud-Men, the air-men the grass-men the swamp-men and on and on and on and on. Actually I think any more SW movies could leave out these references to "The world of " even if they did want the action to take place in a single terrain. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 87 21:00:38 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!logico!slovax!flak@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Flak) Subject: Re: Single Terrain Planets Christopher Quenelle writes: > "This planet is covered 100.01% with ice." > > Are we supposed to assume this ? > > Or only assume that the planet is /for the most part/ ice, > and the action we see takes place in those areas ? Actually, I can conceive of a planet of ice. Assume that a world has an abundance of water, and the temperature is consistanly below freezing everywhere on the planet. Sublimation will cause clouds to form, and, given enough time, every place on the planet will be subject to snow. The earth, itself, could be a forest world. It would take a bit of terraforming. First of all, we'd have to tilt the axis so it is perpendicular to the orbit. This will prevent extreme cold at the poles. Secondly, we'd have to break up some of the larger continents so we don't have landlocked areas like the Gobi or Sahara. We'd also have to let the planet age so that new mountains are not being formed, and old ones are eroded down. Of course, the earth was once an ocean or desert world. All life was in the ocean, and nothing but desert (i.e. rock but no life, regardless of rainfall), for landform. Come to think of it, even in our own solar system, we have several one terrain worlds. Our moon is certainly desert. Ganemeyde (sp?) is an "ice world" (although not water ice). Jupiter is an ocean world (according to some theories, it's a solid core covered by liquid Helium (or is that Hydrogen), sourrounded by a very turbulent athmosphere). Titan is a swamp world (it is allegedly covered with a tar-pit like slurry of organic molecules). And, of course, there's the exotic landscape of Io (at least I can spell that one right). In fact, when you look at the solar system, earth's varied topography is the exception! Dan Flak R & D Associates 3625 Perkins Lane SW Tacoma, Wa 98499 (206)-581-1322 {hplsla|fluke|uw-beaver}!tikal!slovax!flak ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 03:42:26 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) Subject: Re: Single Terrain Planets flak@slovax.UUCP (Dan Flak) writes: >Christopher Quenelle writes: >> "This planet is covered 100.01% with ice." >> >> Are we supposed to assume this ? >> >> Or only assume that the planet is /for the most part/ ice, >> and the action we see takes place in those areas ? The planet *has* to be that way, although I may argue with the word "most". The planet had a breathable atmosphere and an ice covered planet will not produce that. As far as we know, only life will produce free oxygen in quantities necessary for animal life. Therefore, there must be other areas on the planet in which plants or some other oxygen producing life forms predominate. >Actually, I can conceive of a planet of ice. Assume that a world >has an abundance of water, and the temperature is consistanly below >freezing everywhere on the planet. Sublimation will cause clouds to >form, and, given enough time, every place on the planet will be >subject to snow. There are a number of worlds like this in the outer solar system. In fact, some of them are mostly ice all the way through. Sublimation occurs slowly on these planets because of their low temperatures and they are generally so small that most of what sumblimates escapes the planet. >The earth, itself, could be a forest world. [ideas on dendroforming >Earth deleted] You seem to forget that the majority of the surface of the Earth will still be water. > Of course, the earth was once an ocean or desert world. All life >was in the ocean, and nothing but desert (i.e. rock but no life, >regardless of rainfall), for landform. What is your definition of "desert"? No life (as above) or no water (as below)? In either case, almost all planets in the solar system can be called "desert". However, neither of these two definitions describes a terrain. >Come to think of it, even in our own solar system, we have several >one terrain worlds. Our moon is certainly desert. Ganemeyde (sp?) >is an "ice world" (although not water ice). The ice on Ganymede is mostly water ice but has other ices mixed in >Jupiter is an ocean world (according to some theories, it's a solid >core covered by liquid Helium (or is that Hydrogen), sourrounded by >a very turbulent athmosphere). There are several theories of the internals of Jupiter. Many of them have metallic hydrogen surrounding a rocky core. I do not consider Jupiter as having a terrain as we know it. >Titan is a swamp world (it is allegedly covered with a tar-pit like >slurry of organic molecules). And, of course, there's the exotic >landscape of Io (at least I can spell that one right). In fact, >when you look at the solar system, earth's varied topography is the >exception! In a previous posting (which may not have made it off this site) I came to the exact opposite conclusion. I think your problem is that you don't have a clear picture of what you mean by terrain. For example, the Moon (which you blithely labelled a desert planet) has at least two major types of terrains: mountainous and maria (plains). The fact that neither has water is beside the point. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 21:31:43 GMT From: seismo!sdcsvax!celerity!jjw@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim ) Subject: Star Wars influences and planets What I like best about Star Wars is the way it imitates and reflects so many previous works. I find it strange that the tone of the discussion seems to be derogatory, as if this imitation was a fault. I like the discussion because being aware of these influences increases my enjoyment of the films. One aspect of the imitation is the "single terrain" planets and the phrasing "The xxxx planet yyyy". To me this is a reflection of the influence of "pulp SF" and "Saturday Matinee Serials". If Star Wars were an attempt to present an accurate universe and realistic planets rather than a quality reflection of 1930's serials it wouldn't be nearly as much fun. PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes: >What *I* have always wanted to find in Star Wars was something >original. What`s original about Star Wars is the way all these influences have been lovingly, and carefully combined in a quality manner. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 00:41:17 GMT From: lll-lcc!unisoft!jef@RUTGERS.EDU (Jef Poskanzer) Subject: Re: Single Terrain Planets flak@slovax.UUCP (Dan Flak) wrote: >Actually, I can conceive of a planet of ice. Assume that a world >has an abundance of water, and the temperature is consistanly below >freezing everywhere on the planet. Sublimation will cause clouds to >form, and, given enough time, every place on the planet will be >subject to snow. Where did the water come from? Where did the atmosphere come from? >The earth, itself, could be a forest world. It would take a bit of >terraforming. First of all, we'd have to tilt the axis so it is >perpendicular to the orbit. This will prevent extreme cold at the >poles. Secondly, we'd have to break up some of the larger >continents so we don't have landlocked areas like the Gobi or >Sahara. We'd also have to let the planet age so that new mountains >are not being formed, and old ones are eroded down. You sure talk big. Your plan might sound reasonable to someone who knows nothing about planetary ecology, but to me it sounds like idiocy. How much of the biosphere will survive 6-month arctic nights alternating with six-month tropical days? Certainly not forests. And how do you plan to keep new mountains from being formed, and new continents from being created? >Come to think of it, even in our own solar system, we have several >one terrain worlds. Our moon is certainly desert. Ganemeyde (sp?) >is an "ice world" (although not water ice). Jupiter is an ocean >world (according to some theories, it's a solid core covered by >liquid Helium (or is that Hydrogen), sourrounded by a very >turbulent athmosphere). Titan is a swamp world (it is allegedly >covered with a tar-pit like slurry of organic molecules). And, of >course, there's the exotic landscape of Io (at least I can spell >that one right). In fact, when you look at the solar system, >earth's varied topography is the exception! Gee, you sure know a whole hell of a lot about the solar system, considering that you've only seen a small portion of one planet. Did it ever occur to you that just maybe the Voyager pictures don't show enough detail to make such general statements? If Voyager took pictures of Earth at the same resolution, you'd probably say "All ocean and clouds, yup, another single-terrain planet, yup". Give to me a break. Jef Poskanzer unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu ...ucbvax!unisoft!jef ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 87 19:13:21 GMT From: seismo!enea!mapper!ksand@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Sandvik) Subject: Single Territory Planets These thinkings are an aspect to the net's discussion about "Single Terrain Planets". Why on Earth :-) are the majority of the sf stories written so that the inhabited planets are populated by: a) a single homogen race b) a single nation? You just have to look at our own planet to discover the meaning of free will and the nature of animals in the whole universum. Kent Sandvik ADDRESS: Vallgatan 7, 171 91 Solna Sweden PHONE: (46) 8 - 55 16 39 job, - 733 32 35 home ARPA: enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa UUCP: ksand@mapper.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 23:11:32 GMT From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers) Subject: Re: Single Terrain Planets jef@unisoft.UUCP (Jef Poskanzer) writes: >flak@slovax.UUCP (Dan Flak) wrote: >>Actually, I can conceive of a planet of ice. Assume that a world >>has an abundance of water, and the temperature is consistanly >>below freezing everywhere on the planet. Sublimation will cause >>clouds to form, and, given enough time, every place on the planet >>will be subject to snow. > >Where did the water come from? Where did the atmosphere come from? While some of the single-terrain planet ideas have been very silly, ice planets are not. It's not that hard to make the Earth into an ice planet (or at least make a simplified Earth model get REAL COLD.) Ice is very reflective, you see. About 65% of the sunlight in the polar regions is reflected, compared with ~20% at the equator. Cover the Earth with more ice, and you reflect more sunlight, so the Earth gets colder. The unstable global average temperatures are roughly 245-270 Kelvin (-25 to 0 Celcius). If the global temperature gets below 0 Celcius, it drops to -25 quickly, and it's hard to warm it up again. Reducing the solar radiation 10% should do it, also. The stable regions are av. temp < 240K, solar radiation < 1.2 * current, which is the ice covered Earth solution, and av. temp > 275K, solar radiation > .95 * current radiation. A stable ice covered Earth isn't hard. Note on the model used: This is indeed a very simple climate model. Latitudinal variations are ignored, and the global albedo (reflectivity) is purely a function of global average temperature. For equilibrium temperatures, incoming radiation = outgoing radiation. Solar influx = emissivity * sigma * temp^4. This doesn't take into account a lot of the complexity possible, but nevertheless I feel this shows that an ice-covered Earth is not as unlikely as some respondants have said. I'll give more details on request. Bob Myers myers@tybalt.caltech.edu ...seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 30 Apr 87 0847-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #192 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Apr 87 0847-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #192 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 30 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 192 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Apr 87 14:47:46 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: RAH's Early Works >In DAT, humanity is divided into people who have been bred (for >greater intelligence, resistance to disease, lack of allergies...) >selectively, and into those people referred to as 'controls'-- no >variations from the basic stock. The 'controls' provide a baseline >for humanity (and have allergies, and wear glasses). > So tell me, Eric-- did I get it right ? No. And stop calling me Eric! You're thinking of the book (not story), 'Beyond this Horizon'. 'The Day after Tomorrow' (also titled 'Sixth Column') is about the conquest of America by the Yellow Peril and the subsequent triumph of good old American knowhow. A note on 'Beyond this Horizon': It was written back when humans had 48 chromosomes. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 13:28:20 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) Subject: Re: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes: > Look at the instance where LePaz tells Mannie that the Earth >committee was going to make an offer that would have been accepted >by the Lunies, and that he had had to be personally offensive to >the committee members to ensure that only an unacceptable offer >would be made. Heinlein's revolutionary is not only stealing from >his comrades, he is acting contrary to their interests! No, he is acting contrary to what they want. His whole justification for acting as he does is the computer predictions that loss of bio- material due to grain exports will ruin the lunar ecology to the point where mass starvation will occur in 7 years - cannibalism in another 2. De la Paz feels himself morally obliged to con the loonies for their own good. An interesting wiew, considering that he (or at least Manny) thinks that the imposition of laws forbidding people to do this or that - FOR THEIR OWN GOOD - is totally immoral. Question: Is this contradiction real or imagined? Hans Rancke University of Copenhagen ..mcvax!diku!rancke ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 01:40:41 GMT From: seismo!dalcs!force10!erskine@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil Erskine) Subject: Re: sources... Eric Carpenter asks if Heinlein's earlier works had been forgotten, in favor of his current ones. I would say that Heinlein is remembered PRIMARILY for his earlier works, and much of the postings referencing newer stuff contains an implied (unfavorable) comparison with older books (pre-Stranger in a Strange Land). Among several books left off the list is my personal favorite Heinlein, 'Double Star'(56) in which a down and out comic actor is bamboozled into impersonating a famous political figure. It won a deserved Hugo for best novel. In fact 'Double Star' is on my list of the Twenty Best SF novels. I agree mildly with the implication present in many of the postings about Heinlein's recent writing; that He has become wildly self-indulgent in choice of plot, character and expressed philosophy. I also find His recent writing worth reading several times, more than I can say about a lot of other more enjoyable writings by other authors that, though carrying less objectionable baggage, carry very little into the story beyond incident and milieu. Other earlier work not mentioned includes 'Podkayne of Mars'(63), 'Starman Jones'(53) [containing classically bad predictions about computers of the future], and 'Red Planet'(63) [my start in SF with Door into Summer]. Tying into another recent discussion about stories wherein a character learns that the universe is a fake (simulation/movie-set/etc), the short novel 'The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathon Hoag (47)' suggests that our world is a botched work of art. (And I quite agree that the profession of Art Critic is an unpleasant one :-)). Neil S. Erskine MT&T - (902) 453-0040 x340 ForceTen Enterprises 3845 Dutch Village Rd. Halifax, N.S. B3L-4H9 USENET: {watmath,ihnp4!utzoo!utai,seismo}!dalcs!force10!erskine ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 04:43:52 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay Kevin, I think you're getting things confused. You are trying to make comments about the essay, replies about the essay, the book, the characters' beliefs and the author's beliefs and character. Either try to clearly distinguish these things or formulate some systhesis more elegant than assuming the words of the characters in the story represent the literal beliefs of the author. ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: > This is true even in TMIAHM, where the character *supposedly* >advocates anarchy, but is at *heart* a tyrannical elitist, as the >essay points out. See, the Prof is most content when *he himself* >has maximal personal freedom, *regardless* of the amount of freedom >anyone *else* has. No, he is perfectly willing to give his peers the same freedom, assuming they accept the responsibilities he feels he must. > In TMIAHM, the Prof finds that the best way for *him* to get >*his* most freedom is to become a tyrannical dictator! Yes? This is exactly the topic that is being covered, the relations of the individual, the concepts of of anarchy/libertarianism and society as a whole. Lots of example and counter-example scenarios presented for your consideration. > Note: Heinlein openly supported the Vietnam War, advocating its >continuation!! To assume this is a sin is knee-jerk at best. If you study Heinlein's non-fiction essays (try Expanded Universe), the sense is that he feels that Communism (or Marxism/Leninism as practised in the USSR, etc.) is an anathema to the flavor of rugged individualism he believes in and that it is therefore his (or anyone else's) duty to stand up and be counted or be prepared to accept their fate. Whether this is a reasonable position is perhaps a topic for a politics or philosophy newsgroup. >This is one of the reasons I believe that the highly conservative >nature of his characters' ideological viewpoints is *his very own* >viewpoint. He doesn't advocate freedom: he advocates powerful >government so that he can be one of the power elite. Nonsense. Consider his comments on the political process, the responsibilities of those in power and those rights that an individual should not yield up to government. Look, can the essay, it's either superficial or silly at best. Talk about what your insights, but give them some serious consideration, since you are exposing them to hundreds of people who have also read Heinlein and have considered how his themes relate to to their beliefs and the society we live in. P.S. If you find Vietnam significant, be sure you read enough to get an understanding of alternate points of view. Even a haphazard study of 20th century history will yield plenty of examples of America right *and* wrong and raise many an interesting question. George Robbins {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 01:45:28 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay > stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes: >> Look at the instance where LePaz tells Mannie that the Earth >>committee was going to make an offer that would have been accepted >>by the Lunies, and that he had had to be personally offensive to >>the committee members to ensure that only an unacceptable offer >>would be made. Heinlein's revolutionary is not only stealing from >>his comrades, he is acting contrary to their interests! > > No, he is acting contrary to what they want. His whole > justification for acting as he does is the computer predictions > that loss of bio- material due to grain exports will ruin the > lunar ecology to the point where mass starvation will occur in 7 > years - cannibalism in another 2. De la Paz feels himself morally > obliged to con the loonies for their own good. An interesting > wiew, considering that he (or at least Manny) thinks that the > imposition of laws forbidding people to do this or that - FOR > THEIR OWN GOOD - is totally immoral. > > Question: Is this contradiction real or imagined? Bernardo also states in several place through the novel that he dislikes controllin people's lives as well- thus this behavior IS a contradiction FOR de La Paz (NOT Heinlein), which he basically admits. But if faced with a choice between running those lives for a time, or having those lives end due to starvation, cannibalism, and death, he chooses to take charge. Some basic views DO seem to pervade Heinlein's books- one such is the Mob. (not gangsters- a whole bunch of upset people) Perhaps due to his military experience, I dunno, but his definition of a mob seems to be a large, essentially brainless entity, which can smash due to sheer numbers, but not plan and accomplish very well. Before Mannie and Co., the Lunies were a mob. Mannie, etc., provide a leadership. It's in their interests, and they have the skill (maybe), so why not give it a shot? Also, when Mannie debates with himself about the prospect of starvation and such, he ties faces to these occurences- his family, friends, children... De La Paz is likely to do the same- we don't know, as this is MANNIE's story (we see HIS mind, not anyone else's). Incidentally, as the semi-annual Heinlein arguements seem to be getting into gear, let me declare MY alliegence- FOR Heinlein (except for some minor quibbles, such as the end of TCWWTW- sequel, anyone? Grrrrrr.) Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 11:54:27 EDT From: Mike Garcia Subject: Re: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress The unauthored essay on _The_Moon_is_a_Harsh_Mistress_ missed the boat on many points, most of which were caught by other people. But, I did find it thought provoking. I would like to point out two other errors. The author could not understand how an anarchist band could follow Prof LePaz. Prof was Manny's mentor. Manny was Mike's mentor. I don't see how there could be any disagreement on major issues in this threesome. Wy was an activist invited because her veiws were simular to the veiws of the other revolutionaries. There is no reason the four of them could not function as a team. And being rational people, they selected a team leader. I think it is obvious that the "vote" was three to one in favor of Prof. The other point that the unknown author completely missed was that THE REVOLUTION WAS NOT CAUSED BY POLITICS. The Authority was like the weather, everyone grumbled but no one did anything. The thing that sparked the revolution was Mike's projection of the future. ***** SPOILER HERE ***** The Moon could not continue to ship grain to Earth indefinitely. I remember Mike saying something like " ... and cannabalism will break out in seven years." They were fighting for their lives. The whole point of the revolution was to stop the grain exports. ***** SPOILER ENDS ***** The point that I got out of it was that these four were stiving for their own best interests as they saw them and because of this they were working for the greater good of the MOON. This justified the means they used. It was not so much that "the-end-justified-the- means" but rather the alternative did. These four did not get what they wanted, instead they avoided what they did not want. Mike Garcia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 17:39:13 PDT From: Hibbert.pa@Xerox.COM Subject: Politics To: ugcherk%sunybcs.UUCP@seismo.css.gov I wouldn't mind getting into a discussion of this analysis of Heinlein's "Moon is a Harsh Mistress", but unfortunately, SF-Lovers seems like the wrong place for it. This novel is one of the most overtly political by Heinlein even though there's no lack of political tracts among his fiction. There is plenty of room for an analysis of the SF aspects of this book too, but that subject isn't even touched by the anonymous review that was posted. I'm somewhat surprised that the review itself got past the moderator. (Though I'll admit I've only been reading the list for a month or so. Are there fewer restrictions on political discussions than I'd guessed?) What's the appropriate place to send discussions of the politics of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and of this analysis thereof? Chris ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 03:40:20 GMT From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod) Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay This is my favorite Heinlein novel for several reasons. I could go on interminably, but I feel moved to mention a few points. I see the political progression as well-done irony, as an example of where those who work for "change within the system" wind up: becoming The System. Contrary to the essay writer's assertion, the government of Luna (the Lunar Authority) was a classic "water monopoly", named for the primitive dictatorships in the Mesopotamian area that held power by controlling resources. The LA are shown controlling water, power, and FOB prices of produce. That's oppression. The essayist, and other reviewers, do not comment on the crux of the story: that Luna is headed for an ecological disaster of vast scale within their lifetimes, possibly within ten years. As Manny says late in the book, what the Professor was after all along was the destruction of the visible catapult, which put control of export into the hands of the oligarchy running the revolution. Prof justifies this in his commentary to Manny when Manny is disturbed by the computerized theft of funds to run the revolution, but he does so without recourse to any Judeo-Christian moralizing or posturing - he simply says that he prefers things to go this way rather than that, and that he's willing to accept the consequences. Now, one can object that he simply could have sabotaged the main catapult, but what would have resulted? Real chaos, followed by a police state. Some other reviewers have refuted the charge that Luna is "brutal" and that Earth is "civilized". The basic rule of behavior confronting men everywhere is: control yourself enough to live with those around you, or others will do it for you. If not controlling yourself (to the local standard) means exposing others to environmental hazards, such as on the moon, expect to be controlled briskly and perhaps fatally. The difference is that on the Moon the mores are determined by natural law (it's hard vacuum out there; there are 5 men for every woman, etc.) and Earth is goverened by collectivist fiat. The essayist may properly say that'd he'd rather not live under such conditions.I won't argue with that, although I think I'd rather enjoy it (them). A final note. The reason I like the Professor so much is that he's the only Heinlein "adult authority figure" character who is untouched by bitterness or cynicism. Jubal Harshaw is a man of the world, as is the Professor, but he is tired and disgusted with the history of his life. Lazarus Long is pragmatic and cynical. Oscar Gordon is spoiled for life in America after walking the Glory Road. And so on... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 30 Apr 87 0933-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #193 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Apr 87 0933-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #193 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 30 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 193 Today's Topics: Films - Worst SF Films & Good SF Films & Android (2 msgs) & Dark Star (2 msgs) & The Man Who Fell to Earth & Zardoz & Scanners & Stalker & Biohazard & Wizards & Japanimation Mailing List ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Apr 87 02:53:01 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Worst SF Ok, here's some: _Spaceship_ one of the most bizzarely stupid flicks in a long time. _Space Hunter_ Ok, this isn't so bad, but you gotta admit, it's a 3-D revisit to those of the old B movies that were BAD! _Ice Pirates_ rented this one. I wasted $2. _Plan 9 From Outer Space_ truly, truly, this will hopefully never be outdone. If it is, the planet will crack in shame. And let us not forget the many, many movies which caused us to quiver in agony at the mention of thier names. Since I don't feel like quivering, I'll only say that they usually follow this plot: Earth is threatened by unknown aliens. SAC is scrambled. Their forces prove useless. One man saves the planet, by walking along the outside of the alien ship with his helmet with the talking hole in it, and opening the hatch, breaking in, and wiping out the threat. He returns to earth, and marries his old girlfriend from highschool. ('course, this was also done WELL a few times....) How about _Green Slime!_ - this'ns a REAL pain in the gm. Or perhaps, something that was on recently here- _Santa Claus on Mars_ or some such. - I watched 10 minutes, enough to observe things like a radio set marked "Radio Set", and a secret invisibility device marked "Invisibilty Device"... Eric ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 13:02:42 PDT (Wednesday) From: pmacay.PA@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: Little Shop Of Horrors I just have to throw in another .02 cents. I know all reviews of film are subjective, and we all have our likes and dislikes, but someone said "Little Shop Of Horrors" was "a really BAD movie". I just have to TOTALLY disagree. I saw the original a long time ago, (campy), saw the play recently, (don't miss it), and have seen the movie twice, (much improved ending over the play). I've seen "Rocky Horror" 29 times and I think I could watch "Little Shop" the same number. One thing these shows have in common are lyrics that you can understand and that make sense, not 'baby oh I luv ya, oh oh, baby oh I luv ya, oh oh'. The movie has pace/action/laughs that never stops, the songs are great and the plant is outrageous, not to mention some gut wrenching fun by Steve Martin. I just wanted to state that the film is really FUN, and I didn't want anyone not to see it on the basis of a negative review. Someone also mentioned "Krull" as 'not the greatest, but it was entertaining...', oh come on now, now this was "a really BAD movie"!! Just saw 'Man Facing Southeast', I think there has already been mention of it on the net already. Its about an extraterrestrial who admits himself into an insane asylum because he knows that if he where to tell people who he was, they would put him there anyways. He has a 'Christ-like' mission to save the world from itself. This film was very thought provoking and interesting. Subtitled. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 87 23:10:34 pdt From: rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Arthur Evans) Subject: Android One movie I haven't heard anyone mention is 'Android' -- a low budget film with some beautiful performances, including Klaus Kinski as a mad scientist . . . What impressed me most about this movie was not the sex, violence, and hip spacecraft, but the soul -- something Messrs. Lucas and Spielberg seem to have lost touch with. Anyway, it's available on videotape, and I'd say it's well worth two bucks and an hour and a half of your time. Love, Arthur Evans ARPA: rthr@ucscb.ucsc.edu UUCP: {ucbvax, ihnp4!sco}!ucscc!ucscb!rthr ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 22:57:30 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Android rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU writes: >One movie I haven't heard anyone mention is 'Android' -- a low >budget film with some beautiful performances, including Klaus >Kinski as a mad scientist . . . What impressed me most about this >movie was not the sex, violence, and hip spacecraft, but the soul >-- something Messrs. Lucas and Spielberg seem to have lost touch >with. Anyway, it's available on videotape, and I'd say it's well >worth two bucks and an hour and a half of your time. ANDROID is a wonderful movie. I wanted to add that it won the British 'Best SF film of the year' award; unfortunately I've forgotten the name of the award, but it was well-deserved. See this movie. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 01:07:17 GMT From: rochester!ur-tut!jdia@RUTGERS.EDU (Wowbagger) Subject: Dark Star PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes: >"Darkstar" - made as a student project (USC) by some-one who is now >famous. Highlights (Non-spoiler): > An alien that tickling a character as he is suspended in a lift > shaft. > Bombs that argue about wanting to explode. > A Cryogenic Captain. but who made it?? ... You're thinking of Dan O'Bannon, later of _Alien_ fame. (I think.) I agree that _Dark_Star_ is great. The only really good combination of Science Fiction and Comedy that I've seen. If you haven't seen it, find it on video tape and rent it!!! jdia@tut.cc.rochester.edu ...![seismo|topaz|cmcl2]!rochester!ur-tut!jdia ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 18:39:12 GMT From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers) Subject: Re: Dark Star jdia@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Wowbagger) writes: >PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes: >>"Darkstar" - made as a student project (USC) by someone who is >>now famous. Highlights (Non-spoiler): >> An alien that tickling a character as he is suspended in a lift >> shaft. >> Bombs that argue about wanting to explode. >> A Cryogenic Captain. but who made it?? ... > >You're thinking of Dan O'Bannon, later of _Alien_ fame. (I think.) Try John Carpenter, as in _Halloween_ and _The_Thing_ (remake). Indeed a hilarious movie. Bob Myers myers@tybalt.caltech.edu ..seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers ------------------------------ From: Jeff Dalton Date: Tue, 28 Apr 87 20:29:49 -0100 Subject: The Jerk who fell to Earth From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu > [...] there is no reason for the set of bizarre rooms he is kept > in-- you know, with the pingpong table and all. But it doesn't > matter; the rooms are fragmented, stereotypes jumbled together > with no certainty, like his own state of mind.) Am I the only one who was reminded of this by the nearly final scenes of Steve Martin's The Jerk, when he's in the emptying mansion signing cheques and then gathering the ashtray, the paddle game, the chair, "and that's *all* I need..."? But on to other things... > But as a factual point, there are two versions of the movie > around. It was first released with about 1/2 hour cut out; it has > been rereleased with the cuts put back in. What was cut was about > 1/2 explicit sex and 1/2 some pretty vital plot development. If > anyone is going to see it, I strongly recommend trying to find the > uncut rerelease. I agree with those who feel The Man who Fell to Earth is a good film, but I can easily understand the doubters. I first saw the film as a preview and thought then that it was way too long. It definitely needed cutting or restructuring of some sort. But there's cutting and cutting. Cut the wrong parts and it just gets worse; so perhaps that's what happened in the cut version. I'm not sure whether I've ever seen the cut version myself. When I saw it again, I didn't notice anything particularly missing. > And even having seen it about six times in the last ten years, two > of those being the uncut versions, there are in fact parts of the > plot that I never caught on to. But it didn't matter; it's meant > to evoke a mood, not be impervious to nitpicking of logical > details. I never liked the scenes of the alien planet. I thought them unconvincing: everything looked too fake. But I also found the alienness disturbing, and (presumably) this is something aliens are supposed to do. Back on Earth, the "explicit sex" contributed to the same effect, only more so. Cutting too much of this would weaken the film considerably. I'd be less concerned about losing parts of the plot. I agree that the film is not concerned explaining logical details; part of its effectiveness is derived from what's left out and our resulting confusion and uncertainty. But the basic plot is, I think, pretty clear in any case. It's an alienated, adult E.T. Things decay, fall apart, become meaningless. No one phones home. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 17:04:00 GMT From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh) Subject: Re: Zardoz From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >Has anyone seen the movie _Zardoz_? It was a post holocaust movie, >with Sean Connery. I understand it was one of the more obscure >movies, but I enjoyed it. I was just wondering if anyone else had >seen it and whether or not they liked it. They showed it here at MIT as part of the annual science fiction marathon. It got the most cat-calls and "this is stupid" type laughs that I have ever seen in a movie here. The especially bad parts are when everyone is "going to the second level" by holding their arms out in front of them, wiggling their fingers and humming. (Most of the audience started to imitate it. It was stupid.) I think _Zardoz_ was somebody's failed attempt at trying to make a deep movie. This is a definite MUST NOT SEE! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 19:16:27 -0100 From: Jeff Dalton Subject: Scanners From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu > I remember it as being very good Oh, well. I thought it had some of the worst, most wooden acting ever. The "exploding head" effect was popular then too (rmemeber Outland), as was the "bulging skin" (Altered States), so they were of course included. As Cronenberg films go, I prefer Trancers and Slither (a film that, unfortunately, has several different names -- not to be confused with Slither. This is the one with the sexual parasite beastie.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 19:19:57 bst From: Ian Phillips Subject: Stalker > Tarkovsky then went on to direct another SF film which I haven't > seen; it's something about an alien visitation in mother Russia > with the aliens leaving something behind that alters mutation > rates (I think). It has a short title which I can't for the life > of me remember. Has anyone seen this film? It got some good > reviews. The name of the film is Stalker. It's set in the Zone, which is a mysterious area of wasteland which has strange powers. No-one really knows why the Zone exists, but the general belief is is that it was caused by a meteorite. Some of the powers cause people who wander in there disappear (the Zone is full of traps) and people living around the Zone have 'Zone Children', a kind of mutant. It is said that at the centre of the Zone is The Room, which makes all your dreams come true. The Zone is closed off by the military, so to get in there you need to hire a Stalker: a guide. The film revolves around 3 men: A Stalker, a Scientist, and a Poet, who journey into the Zone for their own reasons. It's about 3 hours, but very good and well worth seeing. It's in Russian with english subtitles. Ian Phillips JANET: ip@bradford.computing ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 02:59:50 GMT From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod) Subject: Biohazard While working my way through cheap 7-11 movies ($.99 weekdays) I ran into a real hooter - BIOHAZARD. It is unutterably bad. It has Aldo Ray (as a General) and stars ANGELIQUE PETTIJOHN (Trekkies will remember her from "Gamesters of Triskellion"; she also has a bit part in "Repo Man") as a lady who materializes junk from another reality. Later, she takes off her clothes and answers the telephone, so we can leer at her substantial chest. She materializes a box that contains a dwarf in a blue rubber suit who runs about killing. There is a silly plot twist, and then you hear the director say, "Cut!" Huh? They >gave up< filming the movie, it was so bad! And the rest of the movie is about 15 minutes of >outtakes< from the rest - these are genuinely funny, such as the sequence where the male lead is tuning in Angelique's nipple and her wig falls off. This was never released to theatres, as far as I can tell, but just sold to the video cassette market. Check your local 7-11. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 03:13:39 GMT From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman) Subject: Re: Wizards From: Douglas M. Olson > Only saw one person recommend my favorite animated flick; WIZARDS. > This was reportedly done by Ralph Bakshi as a warmup before he > butchered _The Fellowship of the Ring_. WIZARDS was scary, cute, > incredibly VISUAL. I absolutely loved the climax, where the good > [spoiler deleted] no goody-goody moralisim here. Oh, this was > thousands of years post-holocaust, which meant the animators had > great fun with mutants. I used to see this annually on campus, > but having left that world years ago, its harder to find. I found out something disillusioning about _Wizards_ (one of my favorite films) at a con a few years ago. Mark Bode was there (with his mother, I think) talking about his father, Vaughn (sp?) Bode, creator of The Yellow Hat, among others. Mark alleged that Vaughn had created many of the concepts and characters used in _Wizards_, most particularly Nekron-99 (who was originally called Cobalt-60), but that at Vaughn's death, Bakshi appropriated all of said concepts and characters as his own work. The Bodes got zilch in royalty-type money for the film. This statement, though it seemed to be backed up pretty well, has not kept me from seeing the movie again since then, but it did bother me. Anyone know the TRUTH of the matter? Also, I have seen two versions of the film. The first three times I saw it, I was somewhat confused by the rapid passage of time between the twins' birth and the main action of the story. The fourth time, I saw a copy in which the growing-up scenes had not been cut! It was only about five minutes of running time, but it definitely helped make sense of the movie... jed hartman {{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 00:11:16 PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: Urusei Yatsura mailing list A mailing list has been set up for Urusei Yatsura fans. If you want to be on the list please send a note to: URUSEI-YATSURA-REQUEST%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 30 Apr 87 0937-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #194 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Apr 87 0937-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #194 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 30 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 194 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Apr 87 17:59:23 GMT From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) Dear NetUser: This is an article about Robert Heinlein and his thoughts (as mirrored by mine). It is NOT a flame. Maybe you want to try this despite its length. You might even like my thoughts - or find out why you don't. This is a response to a recent posting by Kevin Cherkauer (ugcherk@joey), who quotes an apparently copyright-less and (now) anonymous old `essay' about Robert A. Heinlein's *The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress* that purports to "show that Heinlein has managed to discredit himself and is not to be trusted as the authority on the worlds in his own novel". I'm not going to quote significant parts of this `essay' (this is going to be long anyway); go back and read it if you need to. I think you can read this article without it, and I'm going to rip that `essay' limb from limb anyway (very politely, of course). [Kevin says:] > Hope you enjoy it, and let's try not to flame *too* much. Note >that this posting is very low-key. People keep trying to suck me >into flame wars recently (which it is not too hard to do, if I feel >wronged). OK? Well, as a matter of fact, I didn't enjoy it. (I can see why the author would avoid having his name on it :-). Still, you say that you agree with it, so I think I'll point out some of the faulty arguments (low-key enough?) in that `essay' of yours. CAVEAT: (1) I don't have access to the book right now, and it's a year or so since I last read it (yes, I'm re-reading it occasionally!). If I have slipped in a factual error, then someone with the book handy please correct me. (2) I claim no inside information on Mr. Heinlein's thoughts and philosophy. Just mine, mine alone... still I find myself agreeing with much of his ideas, so that this `essay' is partly shooting at me, too (and missing...). I will try not to flame. And, please let's not start a special edition on the bi-annual Heinlein Evaluation Contest. Your `essay' criticizes the book's philosophy, not the style of its writing. While the author of the `essay' is unknown (fortunate for him :-), I shall give him a name for convenience's sake. Let's call him Mark (such as in Easy Mark...) - any real-life Marks please don't feel slighted. *The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress* is henceforth called simply `the book'. Any quotations (in "") are from Mark's `essay'. This `essay' has several major flaws. The main one is that it completely misunderstands what Heinlein is talking about, and what point(s) he tries to make. Mark starts out claiming that Heinlein espouses a "rational anarchy", setting up the lunar society as "a utopian ideal" thereof, and he spends most of the text proclaiming that *unrestrained anarchy* is a bad, uncivilized thing. Agreed. It is. It's just not, by a far shot not, what the book is about. The lunar civilization (the `loonies') as described in the book is not ideal. It's not supposed to be ideal; what would you expect of a bunch of deported (more or less) criminals and their descendants, forced to labor under a foreign, militarily controlled regime (you can't really call it a government)? If you try to interpret the *loonie* culture as a blueprint for an ideal society, you can easily come up with all these nice points of criticism that Mark wallows in for more than half of his `essay'. As it isn't, some of his points are valid but they don't hit the intended target. It is beyond my understanding how he can describe the loonies as "much happier" [than people on Earth]. They aren't (on average). They are laboring hard, under difficult, rather uncivilized circumstances and what amounts to permanent military occupation. They manage to survive, but there's not much more in it for most of them. If at all, the loonies are happy not because but despite the society they live in - but then as most humans, they generally consider the things they know to be The Normal Way. A major focus of Heinlein's book (if not THE major one) is how the strange situation of the loonies influences and determines their society; how a different economic, social and political environment will combine with immutable human traits to create a different form of human community. The loonies aren't necessarily better people; they just have a different culture. Living in the lunar colony is DANGEROUS. The equivalent of crossing a street can end you in vacuum if you're not careful. As a necessary consequence, the tolerance for carelessness and stupidity is considerably lower than on Earth - the fumbling of your neighbor can kill you. The lunar community is CROWDED - if you want more space, you need to dig it, seal it, install survival equipment and maintain it; so people tend to live about as closely together as they can stand. Furthermore, the deportees have come from many different, often contradictory cultures on earth. Consequentially, the potential for social tensions is high, and the loonie culture has evolved a somewhat rigid code of social interaction (note that this is the opposite of the `anarchy' Mark smells all around) that includes, as its most visible trait, the extreme politeless that he seems to find so offensive. Loonies are not particularly afraid of each other. (In any case they are less afraid of violent attack than of stupid accidents caused by others.) What Mark tries to hammer into our heads is that in the total anarchy he sees on Luna *he* would be afraid. (So would I.) It just isn't. If anything, loonie culture is more rigid than today's `modern society' (ha!), simply because there's less room for error; the order just shows in different places. Mark makes a lot of fuss about offenders being dispatched (killed), for him this is a sure sign of barbarism (maybe overcrowded county jails are his idea of civilization?). In the book's context, this is (global) self-preservation - someone who won't (or can't) obey the social code is a manifest danger to the rest. There's no working police force, so vigilantism (modulo its modern bad taste) is a necessity. [Besides, Mark wouldn't recognize a joke if it bit him in the back - Mannie's remarks on the death penalty for bad breath are of course not serious. Besides, Mark seems unable to understand that even major characters in a plot can sometimes lose their temper and say things that the story's author wouldn't approve...] Mark realizes (surprisingly) that there is a "social natural selection" on Luna. Indeed there is - serious offenders die and therefore are unlikely to produce like-minded offspring (Think Of It As Evolution In Action :-). It is, to a degree, really one where "only the politest survive" (and pray what's intrinsically bad about that? NO, I didn't ask you, Tim!), but it is by no means one where "the strong murder the weak". The real anarchic element of the loonie culture is that its members enforce its laws (i.e. customs); an individual `strong' person who unprovokedly attacks a weak one (or any one) will be dispatched FAST by any bystanders BECAUSE TO DO SO IS A SURVIVAL TRAIT for all concerned. As for "men who touch others' women", Mark must have dozed off during these chapters - Heinlein makes it perfectly clear that ANY offense toward a woman would cause ANY bystanders, male or female, to turn immediately against the offender. (Extreme scarcity of females has made them precious and put them into a position where they have the absolute Right Of Choice - no male pressuring allowed. In loonie culture, there is NO SUCH CONCEPT as *someone's woman*. Heinlein makes this almost painfully clear, dropping into expository mode on occasion (sigh!). But then, we can't expect Mark to READ a book he's criticizing...) Another misunderstanding (or is it intentional?!): "Possibly the most blatant message the book has ... is one of rejection of authority." Not so. Mark perceives an internal contradiction where Mannie, the protagonist, rejects the authority of Earth government and (Earth-imposed) Lunar Authority but accepts the authority of Professor Bernardo de la Paz, a fellow co-conspirator during the revolution against Earth and the mentor of the group. There is no real contradiction, of course: Mannie accepts la Paz's *intellectual authority* (due to the man's demonstrated abilities and personal strength) while rejecting the *power-based* authority of the government. The message, if maybe blatant, is rejection of *unfounded, unjustified* authority. Heinlein does indeed believe strongly that, as De La Paz says, "I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." I.e., every- body must ultimately decide for himself whether (s)he can morally submit to some purported authority. Last thing I know, many moral philosophers in the West think so, too. Mark seems to consider this idea abhorrent ("anarchic"). The third and "most telling blow to [Heinlein's] authority" finally, says Mark, is the fact that the revolutionaries plan and execute their revolt in a tight-nit, cell-structured, "oligarchical" organization. (I'd like to see Mark try to organize a revolution by committee.) Some of the protagonists (including their `mentor') express their low opinion about the effectiveness of democratic (committee) processes. In the first time after the revolution, the small group of revolutionaries exercises control by "establishing an oligarchy", which, Mark says, is in blatant contradiction to Heinlein's supposed ideal of "pure anarchy". Of course, the accusation goes awry again. As I said before, "pure anarchy" is by no means an "ideal" of Heinlein; by his judgment, it's not even a viable form of society (because it IS NO society). Centralized, directed control of a society in times of crisis is a concept that even western democracies embrace (in the form of martial law, emergency government and similar concepts). Yet Mark considers the efforts of the protagonists to steer loonie society into a (to them) reasonable direction as an Arch Crime. OK, enough about Mark's misrepresentations. If someone really wants, I'll get a used copy of the book and write a point-for-point refutation of Mark's (mis)quotations and arguments. Many of them, besides being based on wrong assumptions, are also flatly wrong in the context of the story. Now, let me try for a moment to find out why Mark has written this `essay'. It might, of course, be simply a misfired hack job. It was always pretty easy to bash a science-fiction story if you refuse to leave the (physical, mental and ideological) surface of the earth. Besides, it usually goes well with the literature establishment (e.g., your lit prof). On the other hand, Mark may have a real ax to grind with Heinlein's ideas. Let's take a look: The real philosophy behind this book (and almost all of Heinlein's work) is the importance and GOODNESS of individual rights. Not as in `civil rights', which (very roughly) translates to `the right to have and do the same thing as the other guy', but as in `the right to free pursuit of happiness' of the original Declaration Of Independence. Heinlein's basic `point of life' is to learn how to cope with the world around you, take a good look, decide what you want to do and then go out and do it. He believes in your (and everybody's) `unalienable right' to do that, and he also believes that you may or may not be able to pull it off (and that you can fail is not a flaw in God's Design). Perhaps this is what brought Mark to the idea of "rational anarchy". (More likely, he got it from some (better informed) article on Heinlein's writing.) The right to do things your way, of course, doesn't mean that you can now go out and clobber your neighbor. You can try, but you mustn't complain if he shoots you first, and you can't complain either if he runs away and comes back with (depending on locality and time) either the local police force, his larger family or the rest of your neighbors. As many have observed, your freedom ends at the doorstep of your fellow human; not because there's any mystical Divine Law involved but for the perfectly rational reason that a society, to survive, must discourage such arbitrary intrusions. Above all else, Heinlein is an advocate of reality. He and (most of) his characters are less interested in the moral legitimization of things than in WHAT WORKS. Instead of deploring what could or should be or considering how unfair life is treating them, they take stock and make do with what is available, imperfect though it always is. If you have read more Heinlein, you will notice that he has no particular love for anarchy and monarchy, democracy and oligarchy alike, that he quite sharply finds the flaws in all of them - and shows how despite these flaws they CAN be made to work if people - REAL PEOPLE, not cardboard idealists - put their minds and efforts into it. The "rational anarchies" that he indeed describes in other books (not THIS book), e.g. the Tertius colony in *Time Enough For Love*, work not because this form of society or (non-)government is inherently better, but because its PEOPLE are resolved to MAKE IT WORK (and are all geniuses, besides). Needless to say, this concept of what a human ought to be does not sit too well with ideologists of any persuasion. The left side mislikes him because he want people to be DIFFERENT and UNEQUAL. The right side rejects him because he wants people to choose their OWN allegiances, instead of relying on The Word From Above. Liberals (the real ones, not Democrats) mistrust him because he clearly sees the limits of human freedom, the boundaries that reality sets him and that he violates at his own peril (and that of his society). Mr. Joe Random is uncomfortable with it because he would rather have The One Right Solution served on a platter. Given that choice, Mark could stock an entire closet of axes. (But on second thought, I think I do him too much honor - he has more likely just hacked up an `essay' from a reference source on Heinlein and some cursory looks into the book). By the way, there's one central slogan of the book that Mark has completely omitted in his tirade. I am speaking of TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As a Free Lunch. Or: nothing in the world is free, you always have to work for it. Or: give value for value. Or two dozen other forms that express the same idea. (If you have a Heinlein collection, you can try to come up with this idea in each book - it's in at least most of them.) A strong characteristic of the loonie culture is that EVERYTHING has a value and is paid for as a matter of course (not necessarily with money), including air and water. The strange idea that `the government should provide it' wouldn't occur to a loonie - he'll ask what it will cost and who's going to pay the bill. (A question that more citizens should ask hereabouts!) The principle that you always should give value for value, never take things for granted, and that you always pay for things what they are, in reality, worth to you - as obvious as it seems to me - is quite unpopular with a lot of political and philosophical pundits around here. All right. Stop. End of monologue. There isn't space here to say enough of it, and I doubt that this fits into sf-lovers anyway. In case you haven't noticed: I am talking about the IDEAS behind Heinlein's work, not his writing style. Don't send me mail telling me that his style irks you; it gets on my nerves at times, too. Still, Mark's `essay' dealt with ideas, not style, and so I've replied in kind. I've said it at the beginning, but let me DISCLAIM it again: I don't know Mr. Heinlein personally; I have no real or mystical access to his thoughts and ideas. I MAY be completely wrong about him. (I really don't think so, though.) I may also have inadvertently sold a thought of mine as Heinlein's. If so, I apologize to the master (but not too loudly - I believe he would understand). Remember I was working from memory. The ideas above are mine, though anyone who arrives at them independently is (very) welcome to them. (Copycats are requested to mention origin of thought and not to distort it too much :-) If I have offended you, consider whether I have really offended YOU personally or whether I have just broken some of your favorite ideas. If you find the former, I apologize. In the latter case, I hope it helps. I am more than willing to talk about these things; the book, Heinlein in general or the world in (even more) general. I think, though, that we should take it off the net (or the trekkies will get nervous :-). Let's use mail. What do you say, Kev? And anybody else out there! And... thanks for your patience. Peter Kiehtreiber perry@inteloa.intel.com ...!tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry ...!verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 30 Apr 87 0953-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #195 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Apr 87 0953-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #195 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 30 Apr 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 195 Today's Topics: Television - Max Headroom (4 msgs) & Dangermouse (3 msgs) & Some Comments on SF TV ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 09:38:25 EDT From: drukman%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Max Headroom minor correction marotta%gnuvax.dec@decwrl.dec.com writes: > The network has shown three episodes of this new television series > so far, on Tuesday nights at 10:00 in the Boston area. It's based > on the BBC pilot "Max Headroom" which was an interesting science > fiction movie about a new advertising gimmick and the television Great show! I loved the original video and the TV show looks to be way beyond just about everything else on the tube nowadays. Just one minor gripe about the poster's info -- the show was originally run on Britain's Channel 4 -- NOT the BBC. (In fact, Max is about the only decent thing Channel 4 ever did - but that's another story). Jon Drukman ARPA: jsd%oz@mc.lcs.mit.edu BITNET: drukman@umass ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 13:07 EDT From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: M-M-M-M-M-Max Headroom Cons: There is a marked tendency towards a 'rip-off of the week' formula, such as the 'Network' and 'Rollerball' rip-offs, not to mention the cute, tho' unoriginal Gibsonian ICE. As far as that goes, I figure with the body banks and ICE, Max Headroom is about as close as we're going to get to a 'Cyberpunk' television show. The characterizations are a bit trite, and the obvious relationship that is building up between Theora and Edison will undoubtedly turn into a tedious TV show romance. Pros: Of the 5 episodes I've seen so far, the only one which has specifically insulted my intelligence was the afforementioned AI episode, and to be fair, it was a good episode, EXCEPT the exploding computer. The characters, although trite, are at least INTERESTINGLY trite. The show looks like absolutely nothing else on television. The switches from film to video, or video on film, or combinations thereof, are fascinating to watch. The show is not directed like a normal TV show, rather more like a movie. It's about a zillion times better than most other SF shows in the last God knows how many years. How long before we get Max Headroom fan fiction? Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 12:17:51 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Max Headroom, US Series From: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM *** CONTAINS SLIGHT SPOILERS: BRACKETED BY !S! SYMBOL *** I too have been watching Max with some trepidation, but so far I my fears have been unfounded. What I Like About The Series: Casting: (I apologize for not using the actor's names, but I don't have my VCR handy to check 'em out) with the exception of the Murray character (same actor that played the weird judge in Hill Street Blues, isn't he?), the casting is excellent. The Bryce character is the best "hacker" archetype character ever done, bar none. Bryce has just the right balance of arrogance and immaturity. Use of video tech, including computer graphics. The cuts to the view from the mini-cam are especially good. !S! True science fiction elements and speculation. For instance, on last nights (Apr 28th) episode (I wish they had titles!), we had the excellent idea that one day in the future, commercial slots on networks might be exchange traded in REAL time, just like commodity futures! God, I wish *I* had thought of that! What a beautiful idea. !S! What I Don't Like About The Series: Corporations As Heavies: With the exception of the Apr 28 episode, a corporation has been the bad guy. True, with good ol' Ivan Boesky and Co., there's good reason for this trend, but I think there is a tendency in Max to go overboard. I hope we see more about the political environment of 20 Minutes Into The Future. Is the implication that the world is run by corporations? Insufficient character development for Max. They could have spent several episodes just describing the Network's efforts to get rid of or capture Max, all the time giving us an idea of his capabilities, limitations, growth, etc. Finally, the Network would realize that Max was helping ratings and decide to put up with him -- despite his dubious loyalties. From that basis, stories about Max and Edison Carter could be developed. I mean, there are many questions unanswered: Why is the network so blase' about Max? Why doesn't Bryce write an attack program to hunt out Max and capture him? When Max appears on Theora's terminal, does he appear on the entire network too? What are his powers? !S! Exploding computers. I refer to the A7 episode. !S! Ancient typewriter keyboards. I have a theory, though. I think the order that we are seeing the episodes is NOT the order that they were shot. In the second episode (Rakers), Theora and Bryce have modern keyboards. In the Apr 28 episode, Bryce has a modern keyboard, but Theora still has an old one. In all the others, both have old keyboards. What gives? So far, three out of five episodes have seemed padded out to me. Do you think that this show would work better as a 1/2 hour rather than an hour show? The Apr 28 episode was the best since the Origin's episode. They even gave Max 5 minutes at the end to be weird. Wish I had taped it. Perry caro.osbunorth@xerox.com ...!decwrl!xerox.com!caro.osbunorth ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 22:54:18 GMT From: cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Christopher N Maag) Subject: Max Headroom -- April 28th show Warning -- slight spoiler follows... A few comments about the Max Headroom show of April 28th: There was a small inconsistency that I noted in the plot. As you may remember from last week's show, Edison had to get rid of his camera when he was being chased by the cops. The reason for this was that the cops (and presumably anyone else with the correct equipment, for instance Network 23) could home in on the signal of the unit. Why then couldn't they use this technique to track down the missing reporter? Also, as was noted earlier, there are a lot of elements that I think have been lifted directly from the movie _Brazil_. For example, the combination of sophisticated/primitive technology, like the mechanical typewriter keyboard used as terminal. Or, take a look at the dark, ominousness of the city in last week's episode. All in all, I do find the series to be enjoyable. I wonder how long it will last... One last question: has anyone else read _Count Zero_, the latest Gibson book? I have not yet been able to find a copy of _Neuromancer_, but if it is as good as his second book, it will be a excellent read. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 87 15:03:04 GMT From: seismo!unrvax!jimi!otto!rex@RUTGERS.EDU (Rex Jolliff) Subject: Re: DangerMouse From: a.d. jensen >I'm really enjoying the DangerMouse shows which are on Nickelodean >every night, and had a couple of questions about the series: > >1) Are these all repeats? Is so, are they making any more? >How many were made? As far as I know, The episodes you see on Nick. are the only episodes that exist. >2) Does DM ever have any enemies other than Greenback? Yes. Some of his other enemies include: Count Duckula - A Vampire Duck that is infatuated with show business. A 6 ft. tall dragon with a HEAVY scottish accent. A giant animated pile of dishwashing soap suds. A Demon from another dimension. A clothes washer that unites all the household appliances and plots to take over the world. I know there are lots more, But I havent seen the show for a long time. >3) I've got most of them figured out, but what in God's name is the >furry thing always hanging around Greenback. That is Greenback's pet caterpillar. I forget the things names though. I haven't seen the show in a long time, so I could be wrong about the limited episodes. Rex Jolliff rex@otto.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 21:09:02 GMT From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear) Subject: Re: DangerMouse Look forward to a healthy size posting from me on this subject (I hope this gets out - We've been gone for over a week and the system quickly (?) catching up...) By the way.. Has anyone seen the Dangermouse 'Little, Brown and Company' books? Paperbacks: The Trouble With Ghosts * By George, It's a Dragon A Plague of Pyramids * Danger Mouse Saves the World ... Again Lift-the-flap Books: The Danger Mouse File * Bombs Away Invastion of the Creepy Crawlies * Taking the Red Eye Picture Books: Noah's Park * The Wizard of Odd Well, good luck Chapps and Chappesses.... Victor O'Rear {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 87 21:15:35 GMT From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear) Subject: Re: DangerMouse langbein@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (John E. Langbein) writes: > From: a.d. jensen >> I'm really enjoying the DangerMouse shows which are on >> Nickelodean every night, and had a couple of questions about the >> series: > I recall a DM programme Guide posted a while back. Could someone >re-post it also? (I haven't seen a Programe Guide but I did post this list sometime back, and we are working on a Program Guide for the 'Further Adventures of the Galaxy Rangers' but I have recieved a request or two to expand this episode guide.. DANGERMOUSE EPISODE GUIDE Afternoon Off with the The Man From Gadget Fangboner Martian Misfit The Aliens are Coming Mechanized Mayhem Alping is Snow Easy Matter Multiplication Fable The Bad Luck Eye of the Little Nero Power Yellow God The Next Ice Age Begins at Beware of Mexicans Delivering Midnight Milk Odd Ball Runaround By George, It's a Dragon Once Upon A Timeslip One Hundred Fifty Million Cat-Astrophe Years Lost Chicken Run One of Our Stately Homes Is The Clock Strikes Back Missing Close Encounters of the Absurd Kind Penfold BF Cor! What a Picture The Plague of Pyramids Custard Planet of the Cats Play it Again, Wufgang The Day of the Suds Project Moon Demons Aren't Dull Public Enemy Number One Die Laughing The Dream Machine Quark!, Quark! The Duel Remote Controlled Chaos Ee-Tea! The Return of Count Duckula Rogue Robots Four Heads are Better Than Two The Four Tasks of Dangermouse The Spy Who Stayed in with a Cold The Good, the Bad, and the Statues Motionless The Strange Case of the Ghost The Great Bone Idol Bus Gremlin Alert Tampering With Time Tickles Have You Fled From Any Good Tiptoe Through the Penfolds Books Lately? Tower of Terror Hear, Hear! The Trip to America The Hickory Dickory Dock The Trouble With Ghosts Delemma Tut, Tut, It's Not Pharaoh Ice Station Camel Viva, Dangermouse The Invation of Colonel K It's All White, White Wonder What a Three-Point Turn-Up For The Book Journey to the Earth's 'Cor!' Who Stole The Bagpipes? The Wild, Wild Goose Chase The Long-Lost Crown Affair World Of Machines Lord of Bungle Lost, Found and Spellbound EPISODES ONE SHOULD NOT MISS Subtitled: Secret Agent Secrets The Trip To America: New York never looked like this! Journey To The Earths 'Cor!': By Gum It's a bad one! One Of Our Stately Homes is Missing: They said They Wouldn't do this one! The Four Tasks of Dangermouse: Be glad Penfold's on YOUR side! Quark! Quark!: (Did you see Episode 1:Season 4 of Blakes 7?) Close Encounters of the Absurd Kind (See: Science Fiction!- I told you!) Demons Aren't Dull: Dangermouse what a complete Incompetent! Victor O'Rear {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 17:22:15 EDT From: Teresa Griffie (IBD) Subject: Misc. comments on TV programmes From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer) >Does anyone remember a short-lived TV show that came out shortly >after the first Star Wars movie? It was called Quark. I don't >remember it all that well, but it was a kind of parody of both Star >Wars and Star Trek (mostly the former). I remember such a show. It was only on a few times; one of those mildly amusing shows that are sent to oblivion a little while after the season starts. Another show in that category is "Police Story", with Leslie Nielsen and others from "Airplane". That lasted about 3 episodes. I also remember another SF show, with a teenage boy as the star, and Donald Moffat as an android named Rem. It was called something like "Fantastic Journey", and it wasn't on very long also. From: seismo!isis!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok) >I was wondering if any or all of the episodes of "The Prisoner" are >out on videotape and if so, where I could get them. Also, along >the same lines, are there any novelizations of any of the episodes? >Though they show them here in Denver (and on PBS stations in many >other cities, too), I always seem to see the same ones over and >over again. Are there any other Prisoner/McGoohan fans out there? >For some reason, even though "The Prisoner" is his lesser-known >series (I would think many more people know about the "Secret >Agent" one), I always like it better. I saw most of The Prisoner series on PBS a number of years ago. I don't remember seeing a large number of them, but I don't know exactly how many there are. I have been looking for them on videotape also, but have had no success as of yet. Personally, I think that The Prisoner is one of the most interesting shows that I remember. Dr. Who was a far second because the quality of the props, monsters, and surroundings seemed to be on par with the ones seen on (dare I say it?) Batman. But I was much younger then. tgriffie@ibd.brl.mil tgriffie@brl-ibd.UUCP tgriffie@brl-ibd.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 5 May 87 0912-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #196 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 5 May 87 0912-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #196 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 196 Today's Topics: Books - Attanasio (2 msgs) & Clarke & Hansen & Tepper & Tolkien & Wallace & Buckaroo Banzai & Story Request & Trade Paperbacks & Juvenile SF (2 sgs) & Humorous SF (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Apr 87 06:52:47 GMT From: gsmith@brahms.berkeley.edu (Gene Ward Smith) Subject: Radix -- "Hard Science Fiction"??? dml@rabbit1.UUCP (David Langdon) writes: >I picked up Radix when it first came out (in trade!!). Just as a >warning to would be readers, Attanasio tends to get very technical >and theoretical about his characters and things that happen (as >some would expect in hard science fiction). If you enjoy good hard >science fiction, pick up both of his books When I read this I got the feeling that David must keep canned Spam where most of us store our brains. This is just wrong, boys and girls. A book, to be called "hard science fiction", must at least try to have something that looks like science in it somewhere. Using "black holes" as a sort of mystic mantra to "explain" where all the gods and wizards get their juice don't cut it. Otherwise, "The Magic Goes Away" is also hard science fiction. (In fact Niven's use of magic makes for a story with more of the hard science fiction feel to it than "Radix".) Fun reading all the same, but it's *science fantasy*, folks! Gene Ward Smith Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!gsmith ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 20:04:42 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Solaris, Wishsong, Radix dml@rabbit1.UUCP (David Langdon) writes: >I have read Radix and his other book (somthing like "Arc of the >Rainbow"???) and enjoyed both of them thoroughly. I picked up >Radix when it first came out (in trade!!). Just as a warning to >would be readers, Attanasio tends to get very technical and >theoretical about his characters and things that happen (as some >would expect in hard science fiction). If you enjoy good hard >science fiction, pick up both of his books EEEK! I'm glad you enjoyed _Radix_, but pleeeease take another look at it -- it is nothing anywhere even close to "hard" SF. I think I understand why you might, at first glance, think it is hard SF: it goes into all sorts of theoretical (esp. physical) explanations of all the various forces/powers etc. that are floating around in the world, mostyl in the glossary in the back. I must, however, disagree that it is anything similar to hard SF for a *lot* of reasons (well, maybe not a *lot*, but *important* ones): 1) While the explanations in the glossary seem to be made of physical theories that are just sooo complex that the average reader is completely lost in the sauce, you must realize that all of this stuff is your basic b*ll sh*t!! None of it is *real* theory -- Attanasio made it all up! (Or the huge majority of it.) I was thouroughly amazed at his ability to make so many things fit together so well in a universe that he has basically dreamed up (a lot of the things in the book indeed do have a very dreamlike quality). 2) The "explanations" really are not an integral part of the story, and do not serve to "justify" the story in scientific terms in any way. Maybe Attanasio is just trying to "awe the socks" off his readers (and he is very good at this), but you will *not* find a story even remotely similar to, ohhhh -- just to pull out a RANDOM example 8-), Asimov's "Nightfall," where orbital physics plays a major part in the story. Attanasio's fictional "scientific" explanations are not of that sort -- they are very phantasmagorical in nature. (Note -- I am not flaming "Nightfall" anymore -- I am just using it as the most prototypical example of what I consider to be classical "hard" SF I can think of off hand.) 3) Radix can very easily be considered a work of pure fantasy. Though its setting is a post-apocalyptic Earth (the apocalypse was not, amazingly, a nuclear holocaust), the story is so full of mysticism and other fantastical devices, it could easily be placed in the "fantasy" genre -- a non-medieval fantasy. Note: at first glance, _Radix_ has the appearance and many of the attributes of a juvenile work about a boy coming of age. I just can't say it loud enough that this is not the case. The novel is a very mature work with beautiful imagery and language. (Attanasio has a vocabulary way beyond Webster, but this does not hinder the story, as they are usually adjectives, of which there are plenty others so that you will get the idea.) The novel has a lot of the characteristics of an all too typical Good vs. Evil fantasy epic, but it blows these types of stories away with the depth with which it is carried out. Good and Evil are not black and white in _Radix_, as you will see if you read it. Enough -- I am probably boring you, but I felt I had to defend one of my all-time favorites from the horrible accusation of being "hard" SF. I am currently reading it again -- one of the few books I have found absolutely as good, and even better, the second time around. I hope I haven't sounded flamey -- I am not trying to be. Read the book and enjoy -- but don't expect hard SF from _Radix_. ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 18:23:04 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: The Songs of Distant Earth Ah, yes. A serious attempt to tell a story involving interstellar civilization with perhaps-more-realistic-than-usual assumptions. That is, no FTL, no Earth-type planets swarming around every star in incredible numbers, and so on and on. Most interesting. But... does anybody know what current thoughts are on "vaccuum energy" or "quantum energy" power? Clarke mentions Feynman, Wheeler, and Sheffield as having played around with the idea prior to "Songs", but is the idea taken seriously, even by these people? By anybody? Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 87 12:29:21 EDT From: brothers@paul.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) Subject: Hansen, dream and war games Well, actually, Dream Games is a direct sequel to War Games -- that is why some characters have the same names! However, it takes place later in the lives of the characters from War Games, who are not as central. If you read the books in succession, you should not have too much trouble figuring out what has gone on, since there are asides in Dream Games explaining what has happened to the characters from War Games. Strange that you should think the two books not connected.... Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 87 11:23:37 PDT (Thursday) From: Cate3.PA@xerox.com Subject: Uplift War & Tipper's next book In Sheri Tepper's True Names books there were three sets of three books, and then a tenth. Does anyone know when the tenth is to be out? Thanks in advance. Have a good day. Henry III cate3.pa@xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1987 13:45 PDT From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Tolkien: _Lays of Beleriand_ Keith Anderson Writes >Two new books by JRR and Christopher Tolkien have been released: >_The Lays of Beleriand_ ... >Has anyone read these? The "the Lays" are not easy reading - most suitable for Lit. Crit. types. The alitterative verse is however attractive and CS Lewis's comments entertaining... The negative scenario that underlies Tolkien's Universe causes me mild depression so I tend to take the pre-"Ring" histories in small doses. Dick Botting Dept Comp Sci. Cal State U San Bernardino, CA 92407 voice:714-887-7368 PAAAAAR@CCS.CSUSCC.EDU paaaaar@calstate.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 01:53:53 GMT From: seismo!dalcs!force10!erskine@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil Erskine) Subject: Availability of Ian Wallace books I have been looking in bookstores (new and used) for many years, and have yet to discover any books by Ian Wallace other than 'A Voyage to Dari'. Does anyone know if they were ever released in North America, and whether or not they are currently available? I was very impressed by the 'A Voyage to Dari', and would like to read the other related books mentioned in it. Neil S. Erskine MT&T - (902) 453-0040 x340 ForceTen Enterprises 3845 Dutch Village Rd. Halifax, N.S. B3L-4H9 USENET: {watmath,ihnp4!utzoo!utai,seismo}!dalcs!force10!erskine ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 03:05:25 GMT From: nee@sdics.ucsd.edu (Clydene Nee) Subject: Buckaroo Banzai and His Adventures Across the 8th Dimension I have been looking for the novelization of the movie Buckaroo Banzai and his Adventures across the 8th Dimension. I know that the book exists some where out there. If you, or you know of anyone who would like to sell or trade, a copy of this book then drop me a line. Clydene Nee sdcsvax.edu\!ics\!nee US Snail : P.O. Box 2267 La Jolla, CA 92093 ------------------------------ Date: WED APR 29, 1987 11.20.08 EDT From: "David Liebreich" Subject: Re: Story Request Marty Cohen writes: >A short story I read numerous years ago (authors name forgotten) >dealt with the only two telepaths in the world. Their paths first >crossed on trains going in opposite directions. When they finally >met, they were initially overjoyed, but when they began >telepathically (and involuntarily) exchanging their most personal >and embarrassing thoughts and memories, they became disgusted with >each other. > >The last lines of the story, as I recall them were: > >"Get out of my mind. I hate you." I read a short story with the same line. It was about a man who provided telepathic linkups between any two people, as long as he got paid. The main plot of the story is that he handles a linkup with two very powerful minds, and is damaged in the process (he keeps getting flashbacks and flashforwards.) The line "Get out . . ." comes from the female of a husband-and- wife couple when they go to him to "know the depths of their love by experiencing total oneness . . ." or something like that. I know I have the anthology at home somewhere, but since I'm at school, could someone please tell me what the name of this short story is. Dave Liebreich DCL1@LEHIGH KDCLIEB@LEHICDC1 ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 10:32:12 GMT From: jml@computer-science.strathclyde.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) Subject: Re: Solaris, Wishsong, Radix "Wishsong of Shannara" has been out in mass-market paperback in Britain for some considerable time now (circa 6-9 months) after its initial release as trade paperback.As far as I know it was never a hardback here. I have a complaint to make about trade paperbacks.They don't fit into a nice shelf of mass-markets (looks pretty stupid to have two or three books rising above the hundreds of small ones). And whose idea was it to release the British edition of Katherine Kurtz' Deryni books in trade whereas the American edition (normal size) had been out on release here years ago? It means that a single series has books of different sizes since it is now impossible to get the American versions presumably due to copyright laws enforcing only one publisher at a time. Ah,well, I know it's not much to bother about.Just thought to mention it. Joseph McLean ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 20:28:11 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!edge!walker@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Walker) Subject: Re: Juvenile SF (The Good, the Bad, & the Ages) >list of kids stories, broken down by the appropriate age group >(knowing this varies among individuals), such as "ages 10-12, >12-14, 14-16, and 16 & up". 5-10 year olds.... The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis includes: "The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe" and others that I can't remember the titles to. Rocketship Galileo by Robert Heinlein The Rolling Stones "" "" ------------------------------ Date: Sat 2 May 87 01:09:39-CDT From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: re: juvenile SF A favorite of mine, besides the Heinlein juvvies, was "The Universe Between" by somebody or other; the name that springs to mind is Andre Norton, but that is wrong. It's doctor something... Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1987 13:48 PDT From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Humour/Humor in SF "The Silver Eggheads" by Fritz Lieber What if publishers used computers to write pulp fiction... Many characters: robot and human and other unique(?) treatment of Robot Sex... Highly recommended! My copy has fallen to pieces over the last 20 years but I still read it. Dick Botting Dept Comp Sci. Cal State U San Bernardino, CA 92407 voice:714-887-7368 PAAAAAR@CCS.CSUSCC.EDU paaaaar@calstate.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 01:01:33 GMT From: seismo!dalcs!force10!erskine@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil Erskine) Subject: Re: more humor in sf Most (if not all) of Ron Goulart's books are strictly for laughs. One could almost call the Goulart novel a sub-genre, as I seem to recall reading similar books by other authors. A particularly good one is 'When the Waker Sleeps', which deals with a person who sleeps for fifty years at a stretch, waking only for a few weeks. I suspect that the treatment of the premise differs completely from that of another recently mentioned story using it. Another commendable book in this class is 'Ten Years to Doomsday', the author of which escapes me. When I first read this in Grade 2 I thought it a gripping adventure novel, and for many years sought a copy. When I did find it, the book turns out to be a big spoof on many of the oldest SF themes. The author is fairly well known (might be Keith Laumer). John Boyd has written a couple novels of a comic nature, though each had a serious line of thought present; 'The Rakehells of Heaven' coming immediately to mind. Another one is 'Andromeda Gun'. Satire seems more common in SF than the slapstick humour of Goulart, reversing the tendency of the mainstream. This may be the result of the 'SF is Serious' school of thought (no flames from the SF ghetto discussion conferees please!!). I personally would love to see a writer of Tom Sharpe's talents turned loose on a few SF universes created by authors who take themselves too seriously. Neil S. Erskine MT&T - (902) 453-0040 x340 ForceTen Enterprises 3845 Dutch Village Rd. Halifax, N.S. B3L-4H9 USENET: {watmath,ihnp4!utzoo!utai,seismo}!dalcs!force10!erskine ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 15:34:15 GMT From: hack@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Jay Fenlason) Subject: Re: more humor in sf Ten Years to Doomsday was written by Michal Kurland and Chester Anderson (sp possible, my copy is at home.) "Mother is watching. . ." Kurland has actually written several books, most of them very amusing. One of my favorites is "The Whenabouts of Burr", an alternate history-time travel type story. Yes, you can use your credit cards in other realities. hack@media-lab.media.mit.edu ...!mit-eddie!media-lab!hack ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 08:31:02 GMT From: lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot (Lindsay F. Marshall) Subject: Re: more humor in sf Has anyone mentioned Ron Goulart's books yet? I havent seen his name but I keep having to catchup on sf-lovers as it tends to come in great gobs *SIGH*. Anyway RG is one of the best and funniest SF writers I know, though his most recent books have shown a falling off compared with early ones. I can recommend everything he has written apart from Vampirella and the Battlestar Gallactica stuff. Lindsay F. Marshall JANET: lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot ARPA: lindsay%cheviot.newcastle@ucl-cs UUCP: !ukc!cheviot!lindsay PHONE: +44-91-2329233 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 5 May 87 0932-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #197 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 5 May 87 0932-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #197 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 197 Today's Topics: Films - IMAX (6 msgs) & Movies Filmed in Space & Bakshi (5 msgs) & Night of the Comet & Good SF Movies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Apr 87 17:31:04 GMT From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear) Subject: Re: IMAX mirth@reed.UUCP (The Reedmage) writes: >The movie I KNOW was filmed on location in space, and said so in >the opening credits, is _The Dream is Alive_, the IMAX shuttle >film, which the astronauts themselves filmed on three flights of >various shuttles. > >The screen is 5 stories high, and the only IMAX theaters I know of >are at the Air & Space Museum in D.C., and a similar museum in San >Francisco. I believe there are one or two more. The IMAX theatres I have been to (San Diego - The first in the US I believe) are spherical theatres using 120mm film stock. There is a 5 story theatre at the Smithsonian that can show IMAX films with a special lens, but it doen't have the same feeling. Other theatres include on at the MGM Grand in Lost Wages, Nevada and I believe I have heard mention of one in Chicago which shares the cost of production on some projects. Also one at the tourism center in Mexico. And Canada also? Not sure.. Victor O'Rear {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 14:43:05 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: Re: IMAX IMAX is flat screen, OMNIMAX is dome screen. Both use 70mm film, projected "sideways" and great sound systems. _The_Dream_Is_Alive_ in OMNIMAX is the next best thing to spaceflight. There are dozens of IMAX/OMNIMAX Theaters around the world, and more being built every day (The Boston Science Museum has one of the newest) Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 16:59:12 GMT From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh) Subject: Re: IMAX OMNIMAX is wonderful, indeed. But I remember the credits to _The_Dream_Is_Alive_ saying something about OMNIMAX by IMAX. Is IMAX the company or something? The OMNIMAX at the Museum of Science in Boston uses film larger than 70mm. The film does indeed move sideways. The effect is great. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 19:11:55 bst From: Ian Phillips Subject: IMAX IN SPACE There's an IMAX screen in Bradford, West Yorkshire, England. It's the only IMAX in the country and forms part of the National Museum of Film, Television & Photography, which is well worth a visit. I've seen about half-a-dozen different IMAX films and they're all pretty good, but I think my faves are 'To Fly' and 'The Dream is Alive' ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu writes: > The IMAX film "The Dream is Alive" was filmed by the astronauts in > space using 70mm film cameras. Are you sure they used 70mm cameras? IMAX is 70mm turned on it's side. I think it may be around 100mm wide, but I'm not absolutely certain. I've seen 70mm films on an IMAX screen (our local IMAX is also a local film society) and they're nothing like as big or as high-res as true IMAX films. Incidentaly, while we're on the subject of IMAX. By far the best IMAX film I've seen is the 3D one. I can't remember the title but I do remember it was sponsered by Fujitsu. It features computer animation using the red-green seperation method, and it's a documentary (of sorts) about molecules. The 3D-fx are absolutely stunning. They put all other 3D films in the shade (including the polarised-separation ones). If you get the chance, see this film!!! It's only 10 mins long, but it'll be the best 10mins you'll ever pay to see! Ian Phillips JANET: ip@bradford.computing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1987 19:37 PDT From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: IMAX There is also an IMAX theater in Los Angeles, next to the Museum of Science and Industry in Exposition Park. They are currently showing three films: The Dream is Alive Chronos (like Koyaanisqatsi, only better) We are Born of Stars (a 3D computer-animated quark-to-universe trip) From: ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (ROBERT LEONE) >The IMAX film "The Dream is Alive" was filmed by the astronauts in >space using 70mm film cameras. Yes, they are big and bulky, but >they didn't have to carry them around during liftoff. If some >lesser sized high quality format was used for some shots, I >wouldn't be surprised, but you'd have to show me that film >first.... I thought they explained all this in the film. I sincerely doubt this. I mean, if they were willing to use something other than an IMAX camera, we probably would have seen some footage of the Solar MAX recovery, rather than the shots of the mission control people that we had instead. I wonder how they managed to use a 70mm camera (are you SURE they said that in the film?). I mean, the aspect ratio is totally different, not to mention the difference in picture quality. You have to remember 2 things about an IMAX camera: First, it is very large and heavy, and therefore would still have enough momentum to be unwieldy even in zero-G, and second, it has to be either firmly attached to something, or used in combination with an even-more-unwieldy steadycam or motion control system, since even the most microscopic jolt is very noticeable when the screen is three stories high. Can anyone remember any zooms or pans in The Dream is Alive? I can't. Richard Smith Cal St. Poly, Pomona BITNET: CADS079@CALSTATE ARPA: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 87 17:32:27 GMT From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!tom@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: IMAX Imax, a Canadian product invented by Grahame Ferguson and Roman Kroitor in 1968 for Canada's pavillion at Expo 70 in Osaka, Japan, uses 70 mm frames, but they are mounted sideways on special film stock, so that 70 mm is the height, not the width of the image. Width is about 200 mm if I remember correctly. The world's only supplier of Imax projectors is in Oakville (near Toronto), Ontario, and the world's first permanent Imax theatre opened in 1971. Called Cinesphere, it is the centrepiece of Ontario Place, a recreational park on Toronto's waterfront. As far as I know, all Imax films are still produced by Imax Systems Corporation of Toronto. Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 19:02:32 bst From: Ian Phillips Subject: Filmed in Space Another film that was shot in space was 2010. The background scenes of Jupiter were footage from the Voyager probe, after several hours of supercomputer massaging. I seem to remember that the credits at the end said "Filmed on location at...and Jupiter" ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 16:57:25 GMT From: ames!pyramid!scdpyr!faulkner@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Faulkner) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #173 hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman) writes: > I found out something disillusioning about _Wizards_ (one of my > favorite films) at a con a few years ago. Mark Bode was there > (with his mother, I think) talking about his father, Vaughn (sp?) > Bode, creator of The Yellow Hat, among others. Mark alleged that > Vaughn had created many of the concepts and characters used in > _Wizards_, most particularly Nekron-99 (who was originally called > Cobalt-60), but that at Vaughn's death, Bakshi appropriated all of > said concepts and characters as his own work. The Bodes got zilch > in royalty-type money for the film. This statement, though it > seemed to be backed up pretty well, has not kept me from seeing > the movie again since then, but it did bother me. Anyone know the > TRUTH of the matter? Wizards most definitely ripped off Vaughn Bode's work. I have seen a fair amount of his work, including the Coblat-60 character. This character is virtually identical to Nekron-99. Bakshi didn't even have the imagination to change anything about the character. The good wizard in the movie is also a veiled rip-off of Cheech Wizard, the only difference being is that in the movie, you actually get to see the wizard (Cheech was always covered up by his hat). When Wizards first came out I really loved it, and saw it many times. However, since I have learned that Bakshi ripped-off Vaughn Bode, without so much as an acknowledgement, I refuse to watch the movie. Do not support people that steal others creative ideas. Bill Faulkner Nat'l Center for Atmospheric Research PO Box 3000 Boulder, CO 80307-3000 303-497-1259 UUCP: faulkner@scdpyr.UUCP ..!hao!scdpyr!faulkner INTERNET: faulkner@scdpyr.ucar.edu ARPA: faulkner%ncar@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 17:11:57 GMT From: stuart@CS.ROCHESTER.EDU (Stuart Friedberg) Subject: Bakshi: "Wizards" ripoffs, and "Lord of the Rings" success wish he'd finish LoTR Bakshi ripped off the styles of more than just Vaughn Bode for "Wizards". For years I tried to find out who did the very characteristic covers for Ray Bradbury's paperbacks: very angular etchings. It turned out to be a British artist named Ian Miller. Many of the scenes in Wizards, for example, the wrecked ships with teeth, the cranes and machinery with grappling claws, and the backdrop for Blackwolf's domain (that's the bad guy in Wizards, folks) were precisely in Ian Miller's style. Copying style is a little fuzzier than copying characters, but artists, if not the Copyright Office, still consider it plagarism when unacknowledged. There were some other artists whose styles and motifs Bakshi used without attribution. Unfortunately, I can no longer recall who they all are. Despite the unethical copying involved in Wizards, I really wish someone would fund Bakshi to *FINISH* the second half of The Lord of the Rings. Yes, the movie had some flaws. There were too many scenes with jerky experimental rotoscope techniques, overuse of WW II films with horns and tails painted onto German soldiers, etc. However, *despite* the incredible difficulty, indeed the impossibility, of matching everyone's personal vision about what Gandalf, etc., looked like, Bakshi managed to produce an excellent interpretation. My only complaint about the characters concerned the ents. Everything *but* the ents looked reasonable, but the ents crawled off the pages of a poor comic book. I was especially pleased at Bakshi's interpretation of the confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman at Isengard. That scene is only alluded to in the books; Tolkien never wrote it out explicitly, and Bakshi did a nice job. However, the movie (of the first half) didn't make it at the box office, so we'll never see Bakshi's interpretation of anything past The Battle of Helm's Deep. Stu Friedberg {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart stuart@cs.rochester.edu ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 23:47:32 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Smith) Subject: Re: Bakshi: "Wizards" ripoffs, and "Lord of the Rings" Subject: success Stuart Friedberg writes: > Despite the unethical copying involved in Wizards, I really wish > someone would fund Bakshi to *FINISH* the second half of The Lord > of the Rings. Yes, the movie had some flaws. I wish someone would fund someone other than Bakshi to do it. In Bakshi's LOTR, the Ring was just a minor subplot to take up space between battles. Frodo became a minor character. And the animation sucked. Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 17:26:02 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) Subject: Bakshi's "Lord of the Rings" I agree that it would be impossible to recreate the book as a movie to everyones satisfaction. In fact, it is very difficult to translate even a 200 page book to a 2-hour or so movie (though it has been done) let alone 1000+. So whenever I go to a movie adaptation of a book that I've read, I try to forget anything I know from the book and just enjoy the movie. I'm happy if the movie is a good one in itself, never mind how well it captures the book. Even by this standard Bakshi's Lord of the Rings is a total failure. It wasn't all bad, but the story was choppy and disjointed, and depended on knowing the book. The real effective visual tricks was overused to death (the wierd halfwork effect should have been reserved exclusivly for the Black Riders) and the grand finale, The Battle of Helm's Deep, was totally confusing, consisting of a lot of orcs crossing the screen from left to right followed by a lot of orcs crossing the screen from right to left, the whole thing repeated af few times to use up some footage. >Everything *but* the ents looked reasonable, I know nobody agrees on how balrogs look, but does anyone really believe they look like a distorted butterfly? >I was especially pleased at Bakshi's interpretation of the >confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman at Isengard. That scene >is only alluded to in the books; Tolkien never wrote it out >explicitly, and Bakshi did a nice job. Since I can't remember the scene, it probably wasn't too bad. >However, the movie (of the first half) didn't make it at the box >office, so we'll never see Bakshi's interpretation of anything past >The Battle of Helm's Deep. And a good thing too. Hans Rancke University of Copenhagen ..mcvax!diku!rancke ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 20:42:42 GMT From: dand@tekigm2.tek.com (Dan Duval) Subject: Re: Bakshi's "Lord of the Rings" The "other half" of Lord of the Rings was made and released, about 4-5 years ago. It is called "Return of the King" and picks up right where LotR leaves off (hobbits at Mt Doom and most ev'ryone else still under siege.) I've been scouting around trying to find a copy of it myself, so let me know if anyone digs up a source (VHS, please.) Dan C Duval ISI Engineering Tektronix, Inc. uucp: tektronix!tekigm2!dand ------------------------------ From: Jeff Dalton Date: Thu, 30 Apr 87 20:11:56 -0100 Subject: Night of the Banzai From: Douglas M. Olson > Someone else bemoaned the lack of "seriousness" in the film, DAY > OF THE COMET. I sorta thought it was intended as a spoof... If you mean Night of the Comet (Valley Girls Meet the Comet Zombies), I'm probably the someone else. I thought it would have been better if it had taken itself more seriously, OR less seriously. Maybe I was wrong... My favorite mement was (SPOILER WARNING) at the end when one sister was saying how it was up to them (the sole survivors) to uphold the values of Western Cicilization by not crossing the street against the light, and the other sister says "but there are no cars any more" ... (END SPOILER) ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 13:23:10 PDT (Friday) Subject: Good SF Movies From: Josh Susser I am truly surprised that with all this discussion about SF movies, no one has mentioned my all-time SF favorite: FORBIDDEN PLANET. I have seen this movie five or six times, and it's still captivating (of course, Ann Francis counts for a lot of that). I'll restrain myself from excessive drooling here, but I really think this is a fantastic movie. Regarding BRAZIL: Yes, this is a wonderful film. It's one of the few films that has left me with a significant lingering "WOW" feeling. But I would hesitate to call it science fiction. There was really nothing in the film that relied on advanced technology or hitherto undiscovered phenomena. And I don't think I'm being picky here, so no flames please. be seeing you Josh ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 5 May 87 0956-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #198 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 5 May 87 0956-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #198 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 198 Today's Topics: Books - Benford (2 msgs) & Brin (2 msgs) & Brust & Louise Cooper & Susan Cooper & Eddings (2 msgs) & Kennealy & Kurtz & MacAvoy & Nourse & Vonnegut ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 May 87 17:39:56 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Heart of the Comet A semi-OK book. But did it remind anyone else powerfully of that good old classic space-opera _The Moon is Hell_, by John Campbell? Not that it was the same general plot, or the same ending, nor did it have exactly the same characters. But... somehow for me it had the same sort of "feel". Intrepid explorers developing biosciences at breakneck speed (and with never a serious problem or setback and with lots of serendipitous coincidences) to survive a hostile environment, with ineffectual coaching from Earth, and all that. All in all, I give it two stars out of five. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 19:08:26 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Heart of the Comet throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: >A semi-OK book. But did it remind anyone else powerfully of that >good old classic space-opera _The Moon is Hell_, by John Campbell? Actually, I was kind of reminded of Gem by Fred Pohl, but that was just the aura of a dilapidated space effort. I think it was a quick toss-off thriller with a hope of becoming main-stream best seller. On the other hand, I did read the whole thing on one crack so it must have been a good suspense novel 8-). I guess you can forgive Brin and Benford for making an occasional grab for the golden ring. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 87 01:02:34 GMT From: pur-ee!pur-phy!dub@RUTGERS.EDU (Dwight) Subject: Questions concerning David Brin Hi there! I've got a couple of questions concerning David Brin. First, the "Forthcoming Books" book states that Brin's "The Uplift War" is due out in April 1987 by Phantasia Press. Is this true? I haven't seen it around anywhere. Second, in Brin's recent short story collection (The River of Time), at the end of the "self-propagating star-probe" story ("Lungfish") he states that Beserker-type probes have been discussed by George Benford in "Across the Sea of Suns". I can't find this book anywhere. Can someone help me? Dwight Bartholomew UUCP: {ihnp4,decvax,seismo,inuxc,uiucdcs }!pur-ee!pur-phy!galileo!dub {decwrl,hplabs,icase,psuvax1,ucbvax}|purdue!pur-phy!galileo!dub ARPA: dub@newton.physics.purdue.edu ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 07:31:31 GMT From: lll-lcc!unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Questions concerning David Brin dub@pur-phy.UUCP (Dwight) writes: > First, the "Forthcoming Books" book states that Brin's "The >Uplift War" is due out in April 1987 by Phantasia Press. Is this >true? I haven't seen it around anywhere. Yes it is out. Phantasia Press is a small press publisher. Unless you have a specialty store near you, it is unlikely you will stumble into it. The paperback is due out later this month (from Bantam). Joe Kalash ucbvax!unisoft!kalash ucbvax!kalash kalash@berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 04:37:56 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Brust SQCR6W@IRISHMVS writes: > In all the discussions of SKZB I have yet to see a single posting >about _To Reign in Hell_. Did no one else read this book, or if >someone did, do they not share my opinion that it was a very good >book? I don't know about you, but I enjoyed it a lot more than I >did _Brokedown Palace_. I haven't read BROKEDOWN PALACE, but I did read TO REIGN IN HELL and wasn't too impressed. It is always difficult to tell a story that everyone knows already in such a way as to keep it interesting, and the society of Heaven just wasn't fleshed out enough for me, given that I already knew how everything would work out. (Also, I have a terrible time with books where you keep yelling at the characters "Don't be so stupid! Go ask him what he meant! Stop jumping to conclusions!" Sort of like horror films where they just insist on going through the door you know they shouldn't...) But I am eagerly awaiting the next JHEREG book (is there a name for this series?)... Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 87 21:04:28 PDT From: mkao@pnet01.cts.com (Mike Kao) Subject: Louise Cooper This new writer has talent! Her (?) _Time Master Trilogy_, which includes _The Initiate_, _The Outcast_ and _The Master_, is outstanding (so far)! I just started the third and final volume, but it is worth noting that I spent about 2 days in completing _The Outcast_! I heartily recommend it. To insure my reception of any replies to any of my posts, please reply via mail instead of replying through the board. Mike Kao UUCP: {akgua,hp-sdd!hlpabs,sdcsvax,nosc}!crash!pnet01!mkao ARPA: crash!pnet01!mkao@nosc.arpa INET: mkao@pnet01.CTS.COM ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 May 87 21:56 EST From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Susan Cooper novels - song Julia Ecklar has written a filksong about Susan Cooper's Dark is Rising series using mostly the lyrics from Cooper's poetry....it is no more a spoiler than reading the prophecies at the start of the novels, but just in case... ***SPOILER ALERT*** The Dark is Rising by Julia Ecklar Iron for the birthday, bronze carried long; Wood from the burning, stone out of song; Fire from the candle-ring, water from the thaw; These six Signs the Circle in the last sign-seeker's call. Fire on the mountaintop will find the harp of gold, Played to wake the Sleepers, the oldest of the old. Power from the Greenwitch that's been lost beneath the sea.... All these things will find the light; silver on the tree. When the Dark comes rising, six shall turn it back; Three from the Circle, three from the track. Wood, bronze, iron, water, fire, stone.... Five will return and one go alone. On the day of the dead, the year too dies. Find the youngest in the oldest hills, the door where sea-birds fly. There fire will flee the raven boy and silver see the wind, And the Light shall have the harp of gold in safety once again. By the pleasant lake on Cadman's Way the ancient Sleepers lie, Where the Grey King's shadows hunt the land, and wicked kestrels cry. There one great thing of power by the Light shall sing and guide, So the Sleepers might their long sleep end and for the Light out ride. When the Dark comes rising, six shall turn it back; Three from the Circle, three from the track. Wood, bronze, iron, water, fire, stone.... Five will return and one go alone. The Grail is first to lead them, over sea and under stone; The seekers soon to follow on a quest begun alone. Ways evolve to guide and guard, paths to bring and send; Circles both in Light and Dark from starting until end. When the Light back from the lost land's shores at long last shall return, Six Sleepers all shall ride again; six Signs shall brightly burn. And when midsummer's tree grows up, all silver fair and tall, Then dragon-sword against the Dark shall bring Dark's final fall. When the Dark comes rising, six shall turn it back; Three from the Circle, three from the track. Wood, bronze, iron, water, fire, stone.... Five will return and one go alone. Five will return and one go alone.... Susan de Guardiola DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 14:17:55 GMT From: faline!b2@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Reviews/Opinions on new Eddings: "Guardian of the West"? ** WARNING WARNING SPOILERS ** Capsule Review: A disappointing mix of cardboard characters, obvious plot twists, trite dialog, and nostalgic sentiment. There is no excuse for buying this turkey in hardcover; get it from the library or wait till one of your less fortunate friends throws their copy into the trash. Longer (but not too long) Review: The Belgariad series by David Eddings was good enough to garner a small following of not-to-picky admirers, including myself. The first two books were the best, by the 5th and last Eddings' weaknesses with characterization and dialogue were becoming apparent, as well as a tendency to throw in new concepts and characters, such as the fenlings and magic (vs. sorcery), with little justification or benefit. Guardian of the West, unfortunately, picks up where the Belgariad left off. All the main characters from the series have at least two opportunities to mouth the exact same phrases they used time and time again in the earlier series. Eddings does reuse dialog by having other characters say something or assume some expression usually reserved for someone else. Character growth? Possibly some in Errand, after all, where can you go with a boy that speaks only one word? Some in Belgarion, none in anyone else, not even the 4000+ year old ex-virgin Polgara. Getting laid didn't change her a bit. Oh yeah, almost all living (and non-living-but-not-exactly-dead) minor characters have at least one scene. Hence the nostalgia that one is supposed to feel. Errand is undoubtedly the focus of this new series, but he gets lost in the shuffle since Eddings is forced to keep track of the comings and goings of all the old characters as they wander around from place to place. Instead of tight group of characters all traveling together you have all sorts of little groups off on their own. It's not very cohesive. As for the plot, it's weak. Very weak. Very Very weak. Full of holes too. Errand has these incredible powers, and everyone knows about them, but do they use them intelligently? NO. Do the sorcerors demonstrate new abilities commensurate with those shown before? Do they make statements and show abilities consistent with the earlier books? NO. One example will suffice: Ce-Nedra informs Belgarion their son has been kidnapped through her amulet. What does he do? Turns himself into a falcon, for the first time, and FLIES hundreds of miles to Riva. Why didn't he use the shadow trick to return immediately and capture the kidnappers before they left the island? That would have been too easy. I could go on, but you get the point. This book isn't worth the $16.95 or so it costs. Wait till it's out in paperback, then wait until you can find it for .50 at a used bookstore. Then you will be getting what you pay for. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 May 87 22:44 EST From: nj Subject: Eddings More (possibly late) reaction to _The Belgariad_ and the first book of _The Malloreon_. I find myself agreeing with a lot of the criticism of Eddings' work. It's true that it is rather predictable, and some of the plot devices are trite. All I can say in protest is that every time I've picked up the first book, I've reread the entire series. For pure _enjoyment_ of reading, I don't know of a better book, or set of books. nj ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 14:09:25 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: The Throne of Scone... is volume *three* of Patricia Kennealy's "Keltiad". "The Copper Crown" turns out to have been volume two and "The Silver Tree" (dealing with the feud between Aeron's father and Bres and the events leading up to "The Copper Crown") will be volume one. I suspect that squeezing the current story down to two volumes was the editor's idea, rather than the author's. "The Throne of Scone" is very compressed -- it reads like a volume of twice the length, with 50% of the material removed. That hurts it since, as "The Copper Crown" showed, Kennealy's strength is in her detail work. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 May 87 21:40 EST From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Katherine Kurtz / Deryni Sean Owens writes: > The other is an anthology , (either Swords & Sorcery, or Flashing > Swords, not sure which, #4, edited by Lynn Campbell, I think) > which contains a short story about young morgan helping Brion > Haldane to acquire magical powers. The story is called "Swords against the Marluk" and is in Flashing Swords #4, Barbarians and Black Magic, edited by Lin Carter. I don't know if it is still in print, but it is available through the SF Book Club. There is also a fanzine called The Deryni Archives (it predates the book of the same name) to which Katherine Kurtz contributes regularly. It has the latest info on the Deryni books and her other fiction, as well as articles on medieval/Eleven Kingdoms life and short fiction - including the *entire* first draft of the first book, "The Lords of Sorandor". There are now 12 issues available, I believe. Information available at: The Deryni Archives Magazine c/o Yvonne John 1348 McDowell Rd. Apt. #101 Naperville, IL 60540 Has anyone read her occult novel, Lammas Night? Comments? Oh, and I don't think that mysterious book that should-be-out-but-isn't exists; she didn't mention it at Darkovercon last Thanksgiving when she talked about her upcoming stuff. Susan de Guardiola DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 19:02:54 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: The Grey Horse R.A. MacAvoy's latest is an improvement on _Twisting the Rope_ and _The Book of Kells_, in my opinion. The story, while simple, is engaging, and is finely drawn with lots and lots of detail. It shares an interesting feature with _Tea with the Black Dragon_ and _Twisting the Rope_, and that is that the plot, the story, and the characters could be essentially the same without the fantasy elements. They are merely added as a sort of seasoning to what is already a fine, wholesome mix. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 14:04:52 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: The Universe Between >A favorite of mine, besides the Heinlein juvvies, was "The Universe >Between" by somebody or other; the name that springs to mind is >Andre Norton, but that is wrong. It's doctor something... Alan Nourse. It was good wasn't it? It's just been reissued in paperback. Is his "Raiders from the Rings" also out? Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 87 12:11:29 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: Between Time and Timbuktu If memory serves me correctly, _Between_Time_and_Timbuktu_ was originally a play that was made in to a movie. The play was indeed written by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. It was a conglomoration (hodge-podge) of many of his other fictional works, including: "Happy Birthday, Wanda June" (itself a play), "Harrison Bergeron", "The Sirens of Titan", and perhaps several others. The space flight thing was used to string the segments together. I know that the movie is shown on PBS occasionally, but I don't know if it was ever a theatre movie (that is, it may have been made exclusively for PBS). It's quite a movie---it's even better if you are familiar with Vonnegut's other works. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University phil@Rice.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 5 May 87 1154-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #199 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 5 May 87 1154-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #199 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 199 Today's Topics: Television - Max Headroom (8 msgs) & Quark (2 msgs) & The Prisoner (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Apr 87 18:29:59 GMT From: ames!oliveb!gnome@RUTGERS.EDU (Gary) Subject: Re: Max Headroom -- April 28th show cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Christopher N Maag) says: > A few comments about the Max Headroom show of April 28th: Why then > couldn't they use this technique to track down the missing > reporter? Because she was using a Cameragun, not a SatCam. The SatCam's are much more expensive -- for use by top reporters only. Not only that, but who can afford to have a SatCam controller for each correspondent in the field? Gary ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 16:16:07 GMT From: sanjour@cvl.umd.edu (Joe Sanjour) Subject: Re: Max Headroom -- April 28th show (SPOILERS) cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Christopher N Maag) writes: > There was a small inconsistency that I noted in the plot. As you > may remember from last week's show, Edison had to get rid of his > camera when he was being chased by the cops. The reason for this > was that the cops (and presumably anyone else with the correct > equipment, for instance Network 23) could home in on the signal of > the unit. Why then couldn't they use this technique to track down > the missing reporter? It seemed clear to me that her camera was just that, a camera. They have mentioned several times that Carter's camera is a sophisticated, `state of the art' piece of equipment. > Also, as was noted earlier, there are a lot of elements that I > think have been lifted directly from the movie _Brazil_. For > example, the combination of sophisticated/primitive technology, > like the mechanical typewriter keyboard used as terminal. How about the cars and trucks? Most are from the '50s. But the terrorists in the most resent episode had a very modern looking van. The Metro police drive what looks like old UPS trucks. Joseph Sanjour Center for Automation Research University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 ARPA: sanjour@cvl.umd.edu UUCP: seismo!cvl!sanjour (301) 454-4526 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Apr 87 22:04:40 EDT From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Max Headroom For all of you who worry that Max et al. will sink in the ratings morass and never be seen again, take heart: Max Headroom finished in the top 20 this past week (4/30/87). It must have been that 24-hour sweeps period.... Lisa Evans Malden, MA ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 23:18:38 GMT From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (T. Russell Flanagan) Subject: Max Headroom: queary about April 28 episode... Well, I just watched my second episode of Max Headroom last night, and perhaps I missed something in the first two episodes which would have clarified one of the plot-devices of last night's episode. What, pray tell, is a "ratings sweep". I think they also referred to this event as a "twenty-four-hour ratings sweep", implying that the networks had twenty-four hours in which to establish as high a rating as they could, so as to ***what***? So as to influence advertisers into buying their time? So as to gain governmental support of some kind? So as to influence public opinion in some way? I don't quite understand why ratings would not be continuously tabulated and monitered, given the technology evident in the series. What possible significance could this particular twenty-four hours have over any other twenty-four-hour period, or over the network's ratings over the previous twelve months or some other measure? Perhaps I am looking for consistency and logic where there is none. On the other hand, I have been impressed with the series enough to watch a second episode, and I will probably watch a third, so I wonder if there is really some logic to that plot-device which I failed to perceive... T. Russell Flanagan ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 03:08:56 GMT From: buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu (Elliott Buchholz) Subject: Re: Max Headroom: queary about April 28 episode... tim@reed.UUCP (T. Russell Flanagan) writes: >Well, I just watched my second episode of Max Headroom last night, >and perhaps I missed something in the first two episodes which >would have clarified one of the plot-devices of last night's >episode. > >What, pray tell, is a "ratings sweep". I think they also referred >to this event as a "twenty-four-hour ratings sweep", implying that >the networks had twenty-four hours in which to establish as high a >rating as they could, so as to ***what***? So as to influence >advertisers into buying their time? So as to gain governmental >support of some kind? So as to influence public opinion in some >way? Guess what? It's not make believe. Ratings sweep does exist. Not 24 hours as in Headroom, but Sweep Week is used in our tv industry. for one week, the ratings put out their best shows (not really best, just the most provocative or most drawing) in order to win points for something I'm not quite so sure about. It has to do with advertising and shares, I believe. You'll recognize sweeps week by the specials on teenage prostitution, News documentaries on local porn shops, and Battles if the Network T&A. It's not very well hidden. (literally) >Perhaps I am looking for consistency and logic where there is none. >On the other hand, I have been impressed with the series enough to >watch a second episode, and I will probably watch a third, so I >wonder if there is really some logic to that plot-device which I >failed to perceive... Logic in the television industry? That does not compute. Elliott Buchholz ARPA:buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu UUCP:rutgers!topaz!buchholz v Bitnet:buchholz@zodiac.bitnet 201 Joyce Kilmer Ave. New Brunswick, NJ 08901 ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 13:45:17 GMT From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: MAX HEADROOM the end of Haven't seen it posted yet, so I thought I would let everyone know. In the most recent TV GUIDE, the one for May 2 - May 8, it lists the May 5 episode of MAX HEADROOM as the last show of the series. ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 15:23:55 GMT From: mtune!homxc!sdave@RUTGERS.EDU (D.BLAKELEY) Subject: Re: Max Headroom: query about April 28 episode... Sweeps week is the week when the ratings statistics are gathered that the networks use to set their ad slot prices for the next quarter. The original poster was correct in wondering why this would still exist in the MH time period. Since the unique premise of this episode dealt with having ad time sold in a commodity market with short term swings, I would think there would be a real-time data gathering mechanism that would do away with `sweeps weeks'. David Blakeley ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 87 18:11:11 GMT From: rochester!ritcv!jaw7509@RUTGERS.EDU (Big Bopper) Subject: Re: A-7 vince@hi.uucp (Vince Murphy [Alien]) writes: > Can anyone out there help me? A friend of mine has been >diligently searching for a movie or tv show containing a computer >or robot named "A-7." Does anyone have any ideas on what >show/movie this relates to? I saw Max Headroom a week or two ago and it had an intelligent computer named A-7 that Max loved and left. I don't know about anybody else, but I think Max has some real good original thinking. It really shows what technology without bound could reap. Granted, not in that particular episode. John White 40 Belmont St. Rochester, N.Y. 14620 (seismo,allegra)!rochester!ritcv!jaw7509 ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 17:57:29 GMT From: seismo!gatech!mcdchg!illusion!marcus@RUTGERS.EDU (Marcus Hall) Subject: Re: Quark (the best SF comedy ever? does it have any Subject: competition?) Yes, Quark was one of my favorites as well. It was full of the cute inter-references that are all the rage nowadays. I remember one episode where Quark was sent to the planet Polumbus to see why everybody that went there was never heard from again. It turns out that there was a device there called a "Lymbacon", I think, that was letting everyone there live out their fantasies and no one wanted to go back. Anyhow, Quark was given directions to get to the Lymbacon thusly: ... and take a right at the Rodenbery bush ... Also, at the end, Quark had destroyed the Lymbacon and with it the fantasy of his childhood love. He closed the show looking back at the planet and saying "Goodbye Diane, goodbye Polumbus", which is a play on the last (?) line from another Richard Benjamin movie, Goodbye Columbus. Anyhow, there were also so many good exchanges with Ficus. "Ficus, thanks a million." "A million what, commander?"; "Ficus, what can I say?" "Anything you want to sir.", etc. I do have these episodes on tape and can make Beta copies if anyone is interested... (I may regret this offer, but oh well..) Marcus Hall ..!{ihnp4,mcdchg}!illusion!marcus ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 00:11:21 GMT From: robert@spam.ISTC.SRI.COM (Robert Allen) Subject: Re: Quark (the best SF comedy ever? does it have any Subject: competition?) The pilot was the best, being a complete ripoff of Star Wars, replete with "the Source"... "oh mighty Source, what does that monster down there want?!" "he wants to eat your head Quark." or "oh mighty Source, how do we penetrate the Gorgons battlestar defenses?" "Quark, maneuver around the back and you will find an unused garbage chute into which you can drive the spaceship." later followed by... "Source, I thought you said we would be undetected?" BLAST! "Quark, Even the Source can't be right all the time!" And who can forget Gene/Jean... Robert Allen, robert@spam.istc.sri.com ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 09:51:09 GMT From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!rgm@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: The Prisoner Susser.pasa@Xerox.COM writes: >Watching the last three episodes in one sitting was very weird. >...The Prisoner #17 gets my vote for the weirdest hour of television >shown EVER. I watched 12 hours of that show straight while copying 12 episodes from my tapes to a friends..boy did my head hurt. I hadn't watched that much tv in about 4yrs all together (yes seriously, I don't own one and see very little reason to, except for PBS perhaps) Show #17 - Yup, strange. I think the idea behind it is very much the "you are your own worst enemy" sort of idea, and once you realize that you are free. Given the context (time frame) of its creation i.e. almost exactly 20 yrs ago. The ideas and fears it is based on become quite clear. After all the number id depersonalization shtick was just getting a good hold then, (we don't notice it anymore - just goes to show you how well its implanted itself) Self realization, individual rebellion and the spectre of the "ESTABLISHMENT" was the in thing. Must keep these sort of things in mind when watching something from another "era". be seeing you.. Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 09:59:31 GMT From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!rgm@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: The Prisoner Is the series "secret agent" that a couple of people have mentioned in conjunction with "The Prisoner" perhaps in fact "Danger Agent" ? Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth ------------------------------ Date: Thu 30 Apr 87 16:21:58-PDT From: Haruka Takano Subject: Prisoner: The Lost Episode Has anyone seen the episode called "The Alternate to the Chimes of Big Ben?" It's supposed to have never been aired on television. I saw it advertised in a Publishers Central Bureau catalog (both VHS and Beta). I was wondering if it would be worth purchasing. Haruka Takano Takano@HPLABS.HP.COM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 87 16:47:26 BST (Postman Pat ver 3.1) From: ENU2856%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk Subject: Patrick McGoohan, Prisoner and Danger Man. >For some reason, even though "The Prisoner" is his lesser-known >series (I would think many more people know about the "Secret >Agent" one), I always like it better. You mean Danger Man. Quite a lot of this was largely McGoohan's own idea, as well. In my view it is a shame he ever got out of tv, all we ever see him play in films are two-dimensional villains. ENU2856%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@ucl.cs-arpa ------------------------------ Date: Mon 4 May 87 11:53:55-PDT From: Haruka Takano Subject: The Prisoner: Lost Episode Since I've been getting questions about it, I looked it up in the catalog again. Here's the catalog blurb: THE PRISONER: LOST EPISODE. Patrick McGoohan. "The Alternative Chime of Big Ben," mysteriously never aired, reveals the secret behind the penny-farthing bicycle -- an integral symbol of the series. Color. 55 min. A must for all fans. You can get a catalog by sending a request to: PUBLISHERS CENTRAL BUREAU Department 493 1 Champion Avenue Avenel, New Jersey 07001-2301 PCB originally dealt with books (mostly hard cover). Their catalog now has books, tapes, records, cassettes, CDs, and video tapes (books and video cassettes take up most of the space). Their prices are usually reasonable, and they usually send a new catalog every few weeks. No purchases required (this is NOT a book club). Haruka Takano takano@hplabs.hp.com takano%thor.hpl.hp.com@hplabs.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 17:16:30 GMT From: rwn@ihlpa.att.com (Bob Neumann) Subject: Re: Prisoner: The Lost Episode From: Haruka Takano > Has anyone seen the episode called "The Alternate to the Chimes of > Big Ben?" It's supposed to have never been aired on television. > I saw it advertised in a Publishers Central Bureau catalog (both > VHS and Beta). I was wondering if it would be worth purchasing. I wrote to the Prisoner "Six of One" appreciation society in Hatfield, Pennsylvania and received lots of good information, including an ad for this episode on videotape. This episode is the same as "The Chimes of Big Ben" but includes some extra footage not shown in the original release of the episode. This information comes from the ad, I haven't seen the videotape myself. Quoting from the ad: ".. video release pf the pre-broadcast version of The Chimes of Big Ben, taken from the only surviving 16mm print. This was one of the first completed films from The Prisoner and it a rare glimpse into the world of television production. It has different theme and background music, additional dialogue, alternate edits and soundtrack mixes, different "takes", additional scenes, and a fantastic closing credits sequence that seems to reveal a possible meaning behind the pennyfarthing symbol of the Village. With more than two dozen differences between this first version and the finally broadcast one, it is truly a unique experience to see. The story is the same, some difference are very minor, but it WAS the way that the episode was first put together, the way we MAY have ended up seeing it!..... The "six of One" fan club information also indicated that an alternative version of the first episode "Arrival" was also available. Bob ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 5 May 87 1232-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #200 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 5 May 87 1232-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #200 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 200 Today's Topics: Books - Leiber (2 msgs) & C.S. Lewis (6 msgs) & Martin (2 msgs) & Roberts & E.E. Smith ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Apr 87 22:14:58 GMT From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!mirth@RUTGERS.EDU (The Reedmage) Subject: Lankhmar (quick note) ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: >Lankhmar: from Fritz Leiber's "Lankhmar" zillogy, about 2 roguish >heros who get in and out of trouble from their semi-legal >activities. > I have read only _The Swords of Lankhmar_. It is pretty good and >semi-funny light reading. Kev, you need to extend the above statement a tad -- "semi-funny" implies that the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories try and fail to be *very* funny. Actually, they vary widely; some are romps, some are horror, some are straight adventure. All are light reading, as Kev said. Most are excellent examples of such. I've read them all (at least, I think I have), and liked them all. Still, read "semi-funny" as a compliment (I think that's how Kev meant it). ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 17:53:35 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!warwick!rolf@RUTGERS.EDU (Rolf Howarth) Subject: Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser Does anyone know if Fritz Leiber has published any Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser (oh all right, Gray Mouser if you insist) other than the six "Swords" books? Since most of the stories were originally published in magazines it's conceivable there are some which aren't in the books, isn't it? (Also it says something in the intro to the AD&D Lankhmar game book about drawing on the material from the books and *other* short stories). I've read the six books N times, but I gotta have another fix of new material :-) (If you haven't read them yet yourself, you should.) Rolf Dept. of Computer Science Warwick University, Coventry, CV4 7AL England. Tel: +44 203 523523 ext 2485 UUCP: {seismo,mcvax}!ukc!warwick!rolf JANET: rolf@uk.ac.warwick.flame ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 00:09:39 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Juvenile SF (The Good, the Bad, & the Ages) walker@edge.UUCP (Dan Walker) writes: >>list of kids stories, broken down by the appropriate age group >>(knowing this varies among individuals), such as "ages 10-12, >>12-14, 14-16, and 16 & up". > >5-10 year olds.... >The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis includes: "The Lion, The >Witch, and the Wardrobe" and others that I can't remember the >titles to. It certainly does vary by age. I first read the Chronicles of Narnia at around six, and still reread them and enjoy them (and not just out of nostalgia, either!) I'm 22. They are just terrific; I can't recommend them highly enough as books that you will feel good about your kids reading: thoughtful, intelligent, and exciting. The books are: The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe Prince Caspian The Voyage of the 'Dawn Treader' The Silver Chair The Horse and His Boy The Magician's Nephew The Last Battle They should be read in this order. ******SPOILER FOLLOWS****** The books are based on Christian mythology and imagery; I know a few people who have heard this and been turned off, either because they are extremely religious non-Christians, or because they don't want to read/have their kids read books with an overpowering religious viewpoint. PLEASE don't let this fact turn you off them. It is not overpowering at all; I was about 18 when I suddenly clicked on 'Oh, so THAT'S why the lamb turned into a lion!' The ideas of self-sacrifice and higher morality are universal (well, no, they're not, but they're not just Christian either). The Christianity comes through in fairly minor ways: Aslan is the great ruler (semi-godlike) and he is the son of the Emperor-Over-Sea, whom we never meet; he allows himself to be killed to save a foolish boy; he tells the children he sends back to our world 'you must learn to recognize me in your own world now', etc. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 17:23:21 GMT From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte) Subject: Re: Juvenile SF (The Good, the Bad, & the Ages) walker@edge.UUCP (Dan Walker) writes: >The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis includes: "The Lion, The >Witch, and the Wardrobe" and others that I can't remember the >titles to. I remember reading these about ten years ago. I can't remember all the titles either, but one very good one for someone who's read _The_Lion,_the_Witch,_and _the_Wardrobe_ is _The_Magician's_Nephew_. It explains the history of the magic (or spacetime portal or something equally future-scientific for those of you who don't agree with the connotation of "magic") in the wardrobe. "What's a Neevil?" Matthew Belmonte Internet: BITNET: UUCP: ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 23:29:29 GMT From: oltz@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Michael Oltz) Subject: Re: Juvenile SF (The Good, the Bad, & the Ages) The 'Chronicles of Narnia' books were numbered by the publisher in the order C.S. Lewis wrote them. However, he wrote the history of Narnia as it occurred to him. Therefore, if you want to read the books in the order that they tell the history of Narnia, go this way: The Magician's Nephew The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe The Horse and His Boy Prince Caspian The Voyage of the Dawn Treader The Silver Chair The Last Battle Mike Oltz ...!rochester!cornell!tn!tcgould!oltz ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 08:06:55 GMT From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte) Subject: Re: Juvenile SF (The Good, the Bad, & the Ages) gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) writes: > a Neevil is "an evil" mispronounced (misunderstood) by a child. >After all the main characters are about 7 years old. Actually it was mispronounced by one of the newly-created talking animals near the end of _The_Magician's_Nephew_. Aslan (the Christ figure) remarks to the talking animals that although Narnia has just been created, already an evil has entered it. You're right, though, the talking animals are like children. Matthew Belmonte ARPA: BITNET: UUCP: ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 22:46:14 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: the Chronicles of Narnia oltz@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Michael Oltz) writes: >The 'Chronicles of Narnia' books were numbered by the publisher in >the order C.S. Lewis wrote them. However, he wrote the history of >Narnia as it occurred to him. Therefore, if you want to read the >books in the order that they tell the history of Narnia, go this >way: NO NO NO NO! Don't read them in the order they 'happen'; the series works much better if you read them in the order they were written, which does in fact move around the Narnia timeline. There is no reason to read them in timeline order; you won't understand most of the significance of THE MAGICIAN'S NEPHEW if you read it first, for example. READ THEM AS C. S. LEWIS WROTE THEM! (not a flame, just a STRONG disagreement) Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 22:55:46 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: more Chronicles of Narnia belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte) writes: > [with respect to the word 'neevil'] >Actually it was mispronounced by one of the newly-created talking >animals near the end of _The_Magician's_Nephew_. Aslan (the Christ >figure) remarks to the Although this is a true characterization, it is a dangerous oversimplification. I've seen too many people turned off to this WONDERFUL series by hearing that it involves much Christian symbolism to be comfortable with tossing off phrases like 'the Christ figure'. Aslan is that, but much more: he and Christ are both symbols for something (no religious flames please...) >talking animals that although Narnia has just been created, already >an evil has entered it. You're right, though, the talking animals >are like children. No, they are without sin, innocent. Children (sometimes) are as well, but the intention is not to make the animals childish. That is the whole point of the misunderstanding and mispronounciation of 'an evil'; the animals have no idea what 'a neevil' is. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 87 13:11:11 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: George R. R. Martin query From: thumper!mike (Mike Caplinger) > "...I can't claim to be an exception. Abner Marsh and Joshua York > [1], Sandy and Maggy and Froggy [2], Val One-Wing [3] and > half-faced Bretan Braith [4], Kenny with his monkey [5], poor > wasted Melody [6], the improved model Melantha Jhirl [7], and the > callous Simon Kress [8], and of course my lost Lya [9]. When I > type I can see their faces...." > > ...I can't place either [5] or [6]. Can anybody else? I thought > I'd read everything Martin ever wrote, but obviously not. [5] is from "Remembering Melody", which first appeared in ROD SERLING'S THE TWILIGHT ZONE MAGAZINE, April 1981. [6] is from "The Monkey Treatment", FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION, July 1983. Both stories were reprinted in Martin's collection SONGS THE DEAD MEN SING, published in the US only in a limited edition from Dark Harvest (I believe there is a British paperback edition, though). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 00:00:05 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin query bothner@navajo.UUCP (Per Bothner) writes: >Mike Caplinger asks which George R.R Martin story has "Kenny with >his monkey." It is "The Monkey Treatment," which can be found in >Gardner Dozois' first annual year's best collection (the >brick-sized trade paperbacks, of which three have been published so >far). Actually, the fourth volume has just come out. Buy it or miss it. These really are the best "Year's Best" anthologies, especially since the untimely death of Terry Carr precludes many more volumes from him. Dozois's books are from St. Martins, are 500+ page trade paperbacks, and are sitting on the table next to my bed for reading and reference on a moment's notice. >Kenny is seriously overweight, and the "treatment" is a way to lose >weight - but a rather unpleasant one. The story may be Politically >Incorrect in assuming that fat men cannot attract women (Martin >chivalrously ignores the possibility of fat women). Apart from that >minor nit, it's a hilarious story: A paean to the joy of food. It should be pointed out here that Martin is not particularly slender; I don't know him at all (although I haunted him at WorldCon past), but I suspect that he might well have been prodding into his own past to see what hurt the most, and then using the Orson Scott Card method ("Who's in pain here?") to write a story about it. Gardner Dozois, on the further hand, is morbidly overweight. Kevin J. Maroney ...!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 14:49:10 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!sysdes!minster!john@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: The Science Fiction of Keith Roberts Jeff Dalton writes: >One problem with Molly Zero is that I couldn't quite figure out the >politics. Just what was the nature of the government? >Totalitarian? Left? Right? Why did they have such elaborate >schemes for dealing with people like Molly? The regime that raises Molly Zero seems to be a right-wing totalitarian state created by an Army revolt. The post-holocaust factor arises from the situation created by a single nuclear device exploded over Birmingham, UK. "Molly Zero" has some similarities to "Ender's Game"; Molly is being trained, with many other adolescents, for high office in the regime - she is to become one of the 'Elite'. The elaborate way her rebellion is dealt with might be considered an elaborate means of psychological assessment and/or character strengthening. The narrative style (2nd person present tense e.g. "You do this, you do that") is upsetting at first (I found it quite a shock to discover that 'I' was a woman, despite the title!), but becomes convincing and enjoyable as the story progresses. >Keith Roberts has also written another post-holocaust novel -- in a >completely different universe -- called "Kiteworld". It was >supposedly excellent, but I didn't find it so. It contains a >number of separate but partially connected stories. Someone who has read "Pavane" might suffer from deja-vu when reading "Kiteworld"; there is a similar politico-religous totalitarian state (though quite unlike the regime of Molly Zero), and an organisation similar to Pavane's Signallers (the Kite Corps). Pavane, too, is composed of several interlocking short stories. It starts with the premise that Elizabeth I was assassinated on the eve of what becomes the successful invasion of the Spanish Armada in 1588, and Reformation England was returned to the stagnatory grip of the Roman Catholic Church. The main events of the novel take place in Dorset, England, circa 1968 - 1990. John A. Murdie Dept. of Comp. Sci. University of York England ukc!york!minster!john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 87 17:17:27 EDT From: LT Sheri Smith USN Subject: The Lensman Series In a (probably unsuccessful) effort to get yet another ad nauseum discussion on the (de)merits of RAH switched to a different topic (by my count, this is the third time he has come up in detail in the past 8 months...which is considerably more than semi-annually...) I have been desperately digging through my memory for something to pique and divert the attention of the debators, and think (hope) I have come up with a possiblity. Being an RAH reader myself, (although I have studiously avoided "Job" and "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls") while eagerly devouring "The Number of the Beast" (only the first part...which is why I avoided...see paran above) the protaganists early on in the book write down a list of their favorite SF novels. One of the ones they all agreed upon was E. E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series. Now, I had been hearing about these books for years, and had been looking off and on for them for quite some time, without success. Could never find the first book, don't you know, and I do prefer to start a series from the beginning. Anyhow, I finally made a special trip to a very special bookstore in Carmel-by-the-Sea, and found book number TWO (The Grey Lensman?? The First Lensman??) which I immediately bought and read. Verdict: (flame on!!!) IT WAS AWFUL!! TRULY AWFUL!!! I found it trite, belittling, patronizing to women, and generally poorly done in terms of character/story development. I literally had to force myself to finish it, which I only did because so many people have spoken so well of it over the years. Heaven alone knows why.... Now, I have nothing against "older" SF, and can happily suspend my current level of technical knowledge and read an out of date story for the story's sake. I realize, too, that I have only read one book of this series. However, unless someone can convince me otherwise (as in #2 is not characteristic of the rest of the series) I don't care if I ever pick up another Lensman book again. No one has mentioned this series on the net yet, so I am hereby soliciting input/discussion/disagreement etc!!! Sheri ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 5 May 87 1314-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #201 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 5 May 87 1314-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #201 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 201 Today's Topics: Films - Dark Star (2 msgs) & Scanners & Trancers (2 msgs) & Zardoz & Green Slime & Little Shop Of Horrors & Good/Bad Movies (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Apr 87 19:41:36 GMT From: rochester!ur-tut!jdia@RUTGERS.EDU (Wowbagger) Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies myers@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Bob Myers) writes: >jdia@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Wowbagger) writes: >>PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes: >>>"Darkstar" - made as a student project (USC) by some-one who is >>>now famous. ...but who made it?? >>You're thinking of Dan O'Bannon, later of _Alien_ fame. (I think.) > >Try John Carpenter, as in _Halloween_ and _The_Thing_ (remake). Actually, both of us are correct. Both Dan O'Bannon AND John Carpenter worked on _Dark_Star_ in college. It seems that during the remake into a full length film, O'Bannon got pissed off and refused to do any more work. It is noted that depending on luck which edition you see, O'Bannon either does or doesn't get any credit. If the opening credits say "_Dark_Star_ The Special Edition" then this is the one where O'Bannon gets credit. BTW, O'Bannon acted in the original part of the film, but his absence (in fact the entire character's absence) is noticed in the parts that were added later. This includes the entire scene chasing the alien about the ship, I believe. INTERNET: jdia@tut.cc.rochester.edu UUCP: ...![seismo|topaz|cmcl2]!rochester!ur-tut!jdia ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 87 14:49:03 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: DARK STAR > From: ur-tut!jdia > ...Both Dan O'Bannon AND John Carpenter worked on _Dark_Star_ in > college. It seems that during the remake into a full length film, > O'Bannon got pissed off and refused to do any more work. It is > noted that depending on luck which edition you see, O'Bannon > either does or doesn't get any credit. If the opening credits say > "_Dark_Star_ The Special Edition" then this is the one where > O'Bannon gets credit. > > BTW, O'Bannon acted in the original part of the film, but his > absence (in fact the entire character's absence) is noticed in the > parts that were added later. This includes the entire scene > chasing the alien about the ship, I believe. This may be true in some alternate universe, but certainly not in ours. Nothing I have ever read about DARK STAR suggests anything of the sort. What's your source for this? The original, college version is circa 45 minutes long, the expanded one about twice that. I have not seem the former, but the latter definitely has Dan O'Bannon in the credits. And O'Bannon appears throughout the alien-chasing sequence. Indeed, his character, Pinback is the one who is trying to capture it! Lastly, I haven't seen any version of the film entitled DARK STAR: THE SPECIAL EDITION. It's possible that a videotaped version exists under this title with O'Bannon's name removed, but this is highly unlikely. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 23:54:12 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Scanners jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK writes: >Oh, well. I thought it had some of the worst, most wooden acting >ever. The "exploding head" effect was popular then too (rmemeber >Outland), as was the "bulging skin" (Altered States), so they were >of course included. As Cronenberg films go, I prefer Trancers and >Slither (a film that, unfortunately, has several different names -- >not to be confused with Slither. This is the one with the sexual >parasite beastie.) Ah, different tastes and all. And I did say I saw SCANNERS a *long* time ago. (Is my memory way off, or didn't it come out well before ALTERED STATES?) I can't tell what the titles of the movies are you're referring to. Is that 'TRANCERS AND SLITHER, not to be confused with SLITHER'? Which one is the one with the sexual parasite beastie? I saw that one (at least I assume it was that one--how many Cronenberg films can there be with a s.p.b.?) under the name THEY CAME FROM WITHIN. (Actually, I never saw RABID, but I think it might also be said to have a s.p.b.) Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 20:10:55 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!canisius!robotron@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave From: Lesinski) Subject: More *GOOD* SF movies How about some lighter SF? Trancers was a terrific movie. Jack Death is hilarious as a kind of future "Sledge Hammer" in this SF parody. I love the shot of semi-submerged Lost Angelos, not to mention Jack's time-stopping wristwatch. One bit of trivia, though, was that a Blade Runner car parked outside the cafe early in the film? Sure, the movie does have some minor plot discrepancies, but its fast-paced, exciting, and a good hour-and-a-half of pure fun. Dave Lesinski 5877 S. Feddick Rd. Boston,NY 14025 (716) 941-6785 UUCP: {decvax|watmath|allegra|rocksvax}!sunybcs!canisius!robotron ames!canisius!robotron CSNET: robotron%canisius@CSNET-relay ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 18:52:09 GMT From: ames!amdahl!bnrmtv!perkins@RUTGERS.EDU (Henry Perkins) Subject: Trancers > How about some lighter SF? Trancers was a terrific movie. Jack > Death is hilarious as a kind of future "Sledge Hammer" in this SF > parody. That's "Jack Deth", not "Death". "Trancers" was interesting in its approach. Both Tim Thomerson and Helen Hunt (the leads in "Trancers") are primarily comic performers. While the movie was a bit tongue-in-cheek, it was played as a regular action/adventure story. Henry Perkins {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 87 17:31:33 EDT From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Andy R. Steinberg) Subject: sf movies: the good, the bad, and the BAD MILD SPOILERS FOLLOW I was exposed to Zardoz during a science fiction class. The movie opened with Sean Connery firing his gun at the audience, probably to spare us the torture of sitting through the film(I've seen better films on bacteria cultures). Sean Connery goes through the entire movie wearing little read shorts pulled up to his armpits, raping every women in sight but it makes no difference since they all died anyway. The special effects were not even worthy of Doctor Who. Also the scenes with people covered in Saran Wrap were stupid, and a flying head that looked like a reject from Easter Island with rotting teeth. The only good part of the entire movie was when Sean Connery was being forced into an orgy on the main street of the city(how often do you see James Bond gang-raped?). END MILD SPOILERS >I think _Zardoz_ was somebody's failed attempt at trying to make a >deep movie. The professor in my class was trying hard to show the philosophy of the film, but it still wasn't hard to rip it to shreds. >This is a definite MUST NOT SEE! The only reason anyone should see this movie is if they were poisoned and wanted to get sick. The only flick I have ever seen worse than Zardoz was Eraserhead, but that's another story. ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 04:28:13 GMT From: gatech!sdcsvax!nosc!humu!uhccux!todd@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: On a lighter note... ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes: >How about _Green Slime!_ - this'ns a REAL pain in the gm. Green Slime had one redeeming feature: It was so bad that it approached "campiness" and I started to enjoy it from that point of view about a third of the way through the movie. I recall the rest of the audience taking that point of view too. The "hero" was so dumb whenever he actually did something sensible the whole audience cheered. So of the other movies mentioned (Galaxy of Terror, etc.) were just plain bad and boring. Todd Ogasawara U. of Hawaii Computing Center UUCP:{ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!nosc!uhccux!todd ARPA:uhccux!todd@nosc.MIL INTERNET:todd@uhccux.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 18:12:36 GMT From: seismo!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Little Shop Of Horrors From: pmacay.PA@Xerox.COM > One thing these shows have in common are lyrics that you can > understand and that make sense, not 'baby oh I luv ya, oh oh, baby > oh I luv ya, oh oh'. One of the things that really GOT to me about this movie was how difficult it was to get all the lyrics. The Supreme-alikes' voices got on my nerves throughout, and they seemed to be trying to fit as many syllables into each line as they possibly could (apologies to the limerick). And that New York accent of Ellen Green was so overdone, and appeared so forced, that I almost cringed whenever she started to sing. The plant, though, was quite understandable. And why didn't Steve Martin get an Oscar nomination? Who do we complain to about that? It's not too late! John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Apr 87 11:36 EDT From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: BAD SF movies... Here are my nominees for WORST SF movies of all time: 1) PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE - THE bad SF movie of all time. Bela Lugosi died mid-way through filming, but Ed D. Woods, Jr. figured no-one would notice that a dentist took over the role if he kept his cape pulled up over his face, even though he was a head taller then Bela. Who could forget those flying hubcaps? 2) ROBOT MONSTER - The gorilla suit with the diving helmet. His 'radio' to his home planet was a short-wave radio with a bubble machine on top. 3) BARBARELLA - Featuring a delightfully air-headed Jane Fonda in her first film, in a fur-lined space ship. 4) HORROR PLANET - Klaus Kinski was in this dog, I believe. A blatant rip-off of the original ALIEN. 5) SUPERGIRL - She's sickeningly sweet, and the plot is awesomely bad. 6) CAPTAIN AMERICA - featuring Reb Brown as the worlds first retarded super-hero. 7) MARS NEEDS WOMEN - The title says it all. 8) TWISTED BRAIN - Teenage-science-geek-discovers-formula-that-turns- him-into-a-maniac-and-gets-revenge-on-tormentors. Exquisitely bad. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 87 14:48:48 EDT From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA Subject: Re: SF films There is one film I remember seeing that no one has mentioned. I vaguely remember it and I won't pass judgement on it (it was DIFFERENT) cause people like strange things (Neil Young was popular once). Anyway John Huston was in it and Glen Ford had a part in it too. It seems a 12 year old girl is developing strange god like powers and an evil group of humans with unseen assists from aliens are trying to gain control of the girl. John Huston is some sort of human/alien/angel who i sent to earth too straighten things out. He does and the last scene is of Huston in a room (obviously) on another planet with lots of kids (including the girl in question) in robes and bald.. There was an interesting film with David Hemmings. It deals with an association of 20th century vampires. Much takes place on a vampire vacation resort where herds of humans are kept and connected to machines that look just like automatic milking machines. There are some neat scenes of vampire tourists in Bermuda shorts taking pictures of the happy herds. Does anyone else recall these movies. I swear I saw them (on the tube late) Jerry Freedman,Jr jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 07:20:32 GMT From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear) Subject: Re: BAD SF movies... From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >Here are my nominees for WORST SF movies of all time: >1) PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE - THE bad SF movie of all time. Bela > Lugosi died mid-way through filming, but Ed D. Woods, Jr. > figured no-one would notice that a dentist took over the role if > he kept his cape pulled up over his face, even though he was a > head taller then Bela. Who could forget those flying hubcaps? > >2) ROBOT MONSTER - The gorilla suit with the diving helmet. His > 'radio' to his home planet was a short-wave radio with a > bubble machine on top. I agree with the first two choices but I must insist as number three: 3) SANTA CLAUS CONQUERS THE MARTINS - Even with Pia Zadora in her acting debut, nothing could save this film. It was produced by the owner of KCOP TV as a Christmas Special and was done so poorly the children knew their lines better than the adults.. To a friend with a very strange sense of humor I gave him the soundtrack album.. With comic book retelling.. Victor O'Rear {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 00:30:19 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Good F&SF Films you might not have thought of... _Day of the Dead_, the third George Romero "Dead" film, is an excellent post-holocaust film. The zombies have mostly a background role in this film, unlike "Night of the Living Dead" or "Dawn of the Dead"; here, the true villains are the Army guards who have been assigned to protect a research institute investigating the zombie virus. It is genuinely chilling, and has several excellent scenes, including one where the non-military 'copter pilot explains to the film's heroine that they should run off to a tropical island and leave the zombie to rule the land masses, that they should turn the world "into a tombstone and teach our children never to read it". Unless you have a _very_ strong aversion to splatter (there's not a whole lot, but enough that I feel obligated to warn you), I highly recommend this. _A Nightmare on Elm Street_ and _A Nightmare on Elm Street III: Dream Warriors_ are both imaginative films about a boogeyman who lives in the Dreams of children who live on Elm Street, USA. The acting is not the world's best (to understate things), but the Boogeyman himself is excellent, as are many of the dream sequences. The first movie dances on the border of hallucination; even as things get weirder, the possibility exists that all the events of the film are hallucinations. The sequel mostly abandons this question, since the awful second film (which the writer of I and III has actively disavowed) seems to have taken all the ambiguity away. Anyway, they aren't _Blade Runner_, but they're quite good. _Peggy Sue Got Married_ is a Magical Realist film (a term the mainstream uses to desribe stories in which impossible things happen in the mimetic world, especially used in reference to works that are good enough that the mainstream critics don't want to admit to the F&SF nature of the works) about a woman who passes out at her high school reunion and finds herself back in 1957. The film is quiet, kind, thoughful, and funny. Highly recommended. Has anyone noticed the severe paucity of good Fantasy film? I don't personally like the MGM _Wizard of Oz_ (and have yet to see _Return to Oz) although I love the novels. _Tron_ is fairly good if viewed as Fantasy instead of SF (with MCP being a Dark Sorcerer, Flynn a divine being, etc...), and I've been told that _Krull_ can be enjoyed the same way. _Wizards_ was so-so, I've never seen _Fire and Ice_, and so forth and so on... Of course, the _Elm Street_ films are really F, not SF. How about good non-horror Fantasy film, especially High Fantasy? Kevin J. Maroney mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 5 May 87 1330-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #202 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 5 May 87 1330-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #202 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 202 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 11:53:45 PDT From: cel@CitHex.Caltech.Edu (Chuck Lane) Subject: Re: Sources (RAH)..., and a minor mystery.... Somewhere buried in the debris, I've got a `Heinlein bibliography' that I picked up at a con years ago (Rivercon '78???). I recall having bought one of the last copies that they had, and I've never seen one since. While checking through the biblio (years ago) I found a RAH novel that I had never read, and in fact had never made it into PB or HB publication. I don't recall the title, but it was one of his serialized novels published in _Boy's Life_ back in the early '50s. No, not _Space Cadet_ or one of those, they were all accounted for. Does anyone happen to know anything about this? Chuck Lane cel@cithex.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 04:35:27 GMT From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod) Subject: Heinlein news. While the subject of Robert Heinlein is current here, I'd like to make a few more general comments. I am a devoted fan of Robert Heinlein and his literature and I think that history will rank him with some of the better American writers. Many of you probably agree. In particular, I'm very grateful to him for writing about the kinds of moral issues and ideas that he did, because they formed my youthful ideas about how a man should act, and treat others, and value things and events in his life.My parents had no values to pass on to me, to speak of, and I wasn't raised in a church. In California there are no real neighborhoods that pass on cultural values like the ones in the Midwest and on the East Coast. To some extent, I was raised by Heinlein's books, and I'm very thankful for his attention to values. If you are interested in looking them over, the University of California at Santa Cruz has, in its Special Collections, Robert Heinlein's manuscripts and many of his personal papers, correspondence, letters, and trivia. You can go there, and as I did, read an early draft of Stranger in a Strange Land - almost a religious experience for me, a child of the '60's. Mr. Heinlein lives in this area and a friend of mine has had some communication with his wife, Virginia, recently. As you probably know, he was suffering from a degenerative bloodflow problem that was cutting off blood to his brain. This was repaired, but apparently there has been irreparable damage. Furthermore, he only has a fraction of normal lung function. Virginia has been handling his business affairs for many years, and has done a heroic job in supporting his writing. Judge not his new books too harshly; they are written under harrowing constraints. His latest novel should come out in June or July. I suspect that it will be his last. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 20:29:26 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu.UUCP (Gordon E. Banks) writes: >Heinlein's credentuals as an libertarian have always been suspect >in my mind. Any decent libertarian theorist (an even most >anarchists) make provisions for protection of weak from strong. >Heinlein's views have a bit too much of the feudal in them and rely >on the idea that the good are going to be strong enough to quash >the bullies. I don't think Heinlein is a libertarian either. I've noticed that his stories almost always have a strong government and a strong militaristic streak in said government which is *advocated* by the protagonist, or is the actual government that sends the protagonist on his/her elitist mission. Also, take a long hard look at the way Heinlein portrays women in most of his works: even though they may ostensibly be in control of a lot of things (_Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ is a good example of a society where women *supposedly* dominate), in reality they are *nothing* more than pretty faces and sexual objects. To stay on the subject of _Moon_, notice that whenever any *real* political/governmental power is involved, *men are the bosses.* The women "know when to keep their pretty mouths shut," as Manuel says at one point (to put it into the plural -- I know it was about a specific person. No -- I don't remember which one, but I'll try to find the quote if people *demand* it.). > Still, I don't agree with the idea that Heinlein has no right to >express these views. Also, this is science fiction, and Heinlein >could claim that this is just a story, not a blueprint for mankind. >After all, there are ideas in "Starship Troopers" that seem to >contradict this kind of anarchy. There is also the valid question >as to how much brutality by individuals in Heinlein's world it >takes to outweight the massive institutional brutality of the kind >generated by almost all governments in this world. Just how >"civilized" is nuclear war? I never would deny Heinlein or anyone the right to express their views, whatever they may be. The "Essay" just questions the validity of the views he trys to portray in one novel. He *does* seem to contradict himself more in that book than in others. As I said before, though, in real life, Heinlein *did* advocate the continuation of the Vietnam War, taking out full page advertisements in various important magazines (newspapers? I don't remember which). This is about as militaristic and interventionist as you can get as a private citizen, short of becoming a soldier of fortune and trotting down to Nicaragua for some "action." This leads me to believe that when he portrays a protagonist who advocates a militaristic, interventionist government that quashes individual liberties (which the Prof in _Moon_ actually set up, regardless of what he kept *saying*), Heinlein is expounding on his own real world values. He's an elitist at heart! ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 20:40:16 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) snuggle@rpiacm.UUCP (Chris Andersen) writes: > But, as to the conclusion of this otherwise good essay: it is said > that Heinlein's message is one of anarchy, that he is urging us to > defy authority. However, as this essay correctly points out, his > "message" is self-contradicing.Therefore, the reader cannot look > up to Heinlein as an authority...and that's exactly what the > "message" urges us to do: DEFY AUTHORITY. In other words, in a > very brilliant piece of fiction Heinlein has not only lain down > the basics of anarchistic principles, he has also succeeded in > destroying that one aspect of those principles which could be it's > ultimate defeat: the supposed AUTHORITY of it's author. By > destroying his own credibility, Heinlein actually realizes in full > his "message" of anarchy. Authority CANNOT be trusted, not even > the author of the "message" 'Authority CANNOT be trusted'! This, I would venture, is the best counter argument so far to the essay about _Moon_ I posted a while back. I applaud you, Chris. This self-negation could possibly be part of the message of the book. I kind of wonder though -- Heinlein is usually very straightforward when it comes to "The Moral of the Story." Anyway, a worthwhile addition to the discussion. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 02:16:07 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay sprankle@kodak.UUCP (Daniel R. Lance) writes: >Two of Heinlein's more recent novels -- *Friday* and *The Cat Who >Walks Through Walls* contain characters which are very much >*against* a rigid, elitist, intervening government (Friday and >Colin Campbell/Richard Ames/etc.) I haven't read _Friday_ in a long time, but wasn't Friday-the-main-character a James Bond type agent of some or other powerful intervening government? Didn't they put her to sleep and perform various operations on her (like to give her secret body compartments where she could carry top secret government information) and not even tell her exactly what they did to her, so that she is continually finding out that what they said they did to her is not what they *really* did to her? Isn't that about as interventionist-in-personal-freedoms as a government can get? I truly can't remember, but I get the impression that maybe it wasn't a government, but an *individual* that was her "employer." In fact, as I think about it, that's what I seem to remember -- the richer-than-anyone-could-ever- imagine type of character that Heinlein seems so fond of: they type of character who is *so powerful and elite that he can buy off the whole government* so that it will allow him to *have his own little private tyranny* somewhere. This may be even *worse* then the interventionist government! (Note -- even in _Stranger in a Strange Land_ we get this type of character (Jubal Harshaw or some name like that?)). In fact, you can probably find a main protagonist in just about *every* Heinlein book who is a flaming elitist! This pattern cannot be ignored! It most definitely says something about Heinlein. (Even in that old book of his, _Waldo and Magic, Inc._ that I have lying around, (which I haven't read yet -- sorry), the cover summaries imply that it deals with one single guy who "owns" Earth! The cover blurb sure makes it sound like this guy is going to be the protagonist, though by now, this should not surprise people too much.) So for those of you who like to look for subtle underlying messages in Heinlein's works, don't forget to consider the subtle message that having the main protagonist in just about every book he has written be some kind of elitist *has* to deliver. Personally, I don't think this message is even all that subtle. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 02:31:29 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes: >stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes: >>Heinlein's revolutionary is not only stealing from his comrades, >>he is acting contrary to their interests! > >De la Paz feels himself morally obliged to con the loonies for >their own good. An interesting wiew, considering that he (or at >least Manny) thinks that the imposition of laws forbidding people >to do this or that - FOR THEIR OWN GOOD - is totally immoral. >Question: Is this contradiction real or imagined? I agree that this is a contradiction. I think, though, that the Prof thinks of absolutely no one but himself, and is totally amoral. But wait -- if he thinks only of himself, and he's really old and gonna die soon anyway, why does he bother to try to pull the revolution off in the first place? If the Prof really thinks only of himself, he *is* amoral (and therefore not someone you should look up to), and doesn't *care* one bit that he is conning the Loonies. He is just (now don't miss this one...) *an incurable elitist!* If, on the other hand, the Prof is doing this for the Loonies' own good, then he is really *not* a libertarian at all, but a holier-than-thou conservative type who likes to force people to do things "for their own good." The Prof's character, in my opinion, is *loaded* with contradictions. I think he is an elitist, not a libertarian. I don't think he feels morally obliged to do anything for anyone but himself. Maybe this is one of the things the "Essay" was trying to point out -- the Prof is *not* a libertarian. No matter *what* he keeps *claiming* to be. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 16:35:44 GMT From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: >I never would deny Heinlein or anyone the right to express their >views, whatever they may be. The "Essay" just questions the >validity of the views he trys to portray in one novel. He *does* >seem to contradict himself more in that book than in others. Sorry, but the "essay" said: " While Heinlein may not like the imposing governments of Earth (after which planet Moon's Terra is modeled), this does not make them any less civilized, nor does it give him the right to proclaim his fictitious Lunar anarchy, which is literally a study in barbarism, to be a civilized ideal." I don't agree with Heinlein on a lot of things, but I have learned a lot from him and feel that he is a very important social critic mainly through his influence on young intelligensia in the sciences and technical fields. There is much of the vigilante in his works, usually dealing with crisis situations (you didn't mention The Puppet Masters, where those who failed to go naked were shot on sight as possibly concealing the alien slug controllers under their clothing). While wanting to uphold the rule of law, I myself feel less threatened by vigilantes than by the police state, and thus come down on the side of those who support the people's right to keep and bear arms to facilitate possible revolt against oppression or at least keep potential dictators looking over their shoulder. I suspect many of those who hate Heinlein would actually prefer the kinds of dictatorship depicted by Heinlein and others (Orwell?) to a period of anarchy, where Heinlein and his followers could well prefer Gotterdammerung to that. (The old better red than dead argument). Those interested in anarchy will find interesting contrasts between LeGuin's The Dispossessed (communitarian anarchy) and Heinlein's rugged brand of feudal anarchy. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 18:39:41 GMT From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: >>De la Paz feels himself morally obliged to con the loonies for >>their own good. An interesting wiew, considering that he (or at >>least Manny) thinks that the imposition of laws forbidding people >>to do this or that - FOR THEIR OWN GOOD - is totally immoral. >>Question: Is this contradiction real or imagined? > >I agree that this is a contradiction. I think, though, that the Prof >thinks of absolutely no one but himself, and is totally amoral. But >wait -- if he thinks only of himself, and he's really old and gonna >die soon anyway, why does he bother to try to pull the revolution off >in the first place? Why do you think that people value their lives less as they get older? It is not the number of years you get that counts, but how you live the ones you've got. > If, on the other hand, the Prof is doing this for the Loonies' >own good, then he is really *not* a libertarian at all, but a >holier-than-thou conservative type who likes to force people to do >things "for their own good." Wow. Have you ever bought into the stereotype of conservatism. > The Prof's character, in my opinion, is *loaded* with >contradictions. I think he is an elitist, not a libertarian. I >don't think he feels morally obliged to do anything for anyone but >himself. Maybe this is one of the things the "Essay" was trying to >point out -- the Prof is *not* a libertarian. No matter *what* he >keeps *claiming* to be. Sounds to me as if you don't know very many libertarians, either. I know enough of them that would insist that noone should feel obligated to do anything for anyone but himself. Even if this characterisation of the Prof was correct he would fit right in. You can't have it both ways -- characterising the conservatives by those characteristics you dislike and the libertarians by those characteristics that you like, and ignoring the contradictions and disagreements whichlie within any political coalition. Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 May 87 0848-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #203 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 87 0848-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #203 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 7 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 203 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Cherryh & Susan Cooper & Lewis (2 msgs) & Lloyd & MacAvoy & Nourse (3 msgs) & Panshin & Spider Robinson & Silverberg (2 msgs) & Cyberpunk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 06 May 87 14:27:35 EDT From: Subject: Brust SQCR6W@IRISHMVS writes: > In all the discussions of SKZB I have yet to see a single posting >about _To Reign in Hell_. Did no one else read this book, or if >someone did, do they not share my opinion that it was a very good >book? I don't know about you, but I enjoyed it a lot more than I >did _Brokedown Palace_. Yes, I agree. I've read everything out so far and _To Reign in Hell_ has been my favorite to date. I have no deep critical justification for this, and don't intend to flame on it for any great length of time; However I did enjoy it alot. I guess I have to agree with Zelazny and his review given in the intro: something to the effect of being halfway there, and thinking "it's been done a million times already, he'll never pull it off. And then he does pull it off." Very well, in fact. Karl DeBisschop kdebiss@ATHENA.MIT.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 16:56:32 GMT From: aterry@TEKNOWLEDGE-VAXC.ARPA (Allan Terry) Subject: Pell? Some weeks ago somebody kindly posted C. J. Cherryh's future chronology. I have heard many references to Pell there and other places but don't remember much about it in any of her books. Does she have a book or short story that talks about Pell? Pell is the first encounter with another sentient race? Have I missed an important event in the future? Oh darn! I will have been late again! Thanks, Allan ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 18:12:43 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: The Throne of Scone Oops. Book 1 of the Keltiad is "The Silver Branch", not "The Silver Tree". Blame it on Susan Cooper. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 May 87 09:56:42 -0800 From: obrien@aero2.aero.org Subject: C.S. Lewis, Narnia and Christian allegory I feel I must warn those who have not yet read the Narnian Chronicles. Yes, they are some of the best fantasy ever written, and yes, I recommend them (almost) unreservedly - except for the last volume. "The Last Battle" is one of the most heavy-handed pieces of Christian allegory it's ever been my misfortune to read. Unless you are a born-again Christian (and maybe even if you are) this is one to avoid. It almost spoiled the whole series for me. I still reread the other volumes with pleasure, but the magic breaks down badly in this little number. True, the other volumes are also allegorical, but they stand on their own. This one doesn't. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 87 00:10 EDT From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Narnia and others... I noticed the recent C.S. Lewis discussion, and although it will probably take weeks before I see this posted, I thought I'd put in my 2 cents. Narnia is, bar NONE, my favorite work of modern fantasy. It surpasses all of the second generation Tolkien rip-offs, and indeed Tolkien itself. And I like Tolkien. The fact remains that no other fantasy writer had or has C.S. Lewis's, how can I say it any other way, 'way with words'. Within the series, we are treated to recognizable fantasy, with all of its attendant swords and sorcery and the like. It clearly emerges from the same tradition as Tolkien, which makes sense, since they were contemporaries, more on that later. One of my main dificulties in dealing with fantasy 'Post Tolkien' is that Tolkien had a sense for where his mythology was coming from, and my sense is that writers who were inspired by Tolkien , or inspired by people inspired by Tolkien somehow tend to remove more and more purity from the original. Not so with Narnia. Another of Narnia's many attractions is C.S. Lewis's stunningly evocative prose. There is no way one cannot want to be in Narnia. Consider the beauty and simplicity of the scenes describing Narnia's creation in 'The Magician's Nephew' and the initial realization that the whole of narnia is Aslan's song. Consider the utter evil that is encountered in 'The Last Battle' where we first encounter Tash. This isn't just good genre fiction, this is good writing by any standard. The same is true of 'The Space Trilogy' also by Lewis ('Out of the Silent Planet', 'Perelandra', and 'That Hideous Strength'). The descriptions of Malacandra and Perelandra are some of the only truly alien descriptions of planets I have ever encountered in Science Fiction, the reader has a sense of worlds entirely different from ours. The religious overtones in The trilogy are a little more heavy-handed, such as the hero Ransom (who is a philologist allegedly based on Tolkien) wondering whether he should try to convert the aliens to Christianity. Any fantasy or SF fan who does not experience the pleasure of these works is neglecting one of the absolute best examples of the form in the English language. Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 87 09:15 EDT From: Subject: Book request I am interested in tracking down a book I read many years ago, but can no longer find. The book is _The Further Adventures of Captain Gregory Dangerfield_, by Jeremy Lloyd. If you've seen it, you'd remember it. I think the book was published in the UK, but I'm not sure. No book search service here in Virginia has been able to trace a copy down. If you know where one can be had, or know of other books by this author, please send me a line. Greg Porter PORTERG@VCUVAX (Bitnet) ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 10:33 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: The Grey Horse I, too, enjoyed MacAvoy's latest. When I got to the scene depicted by the cover art, it took my breath away! I was disappointed that it couldn't be a series of panels, as in a graphic novel. (Digression) I had enjoyed Twisting the Rope because I'm involved in folk music (Calendar editor for the Caltech Folk Music Society's newlsetter), and it sure was nice finding out what Triona ni Dhomnhaill (I think I've got the h's right) was singing about (the song can be found on one of the Bothy Band's albums, but I've forgotten which). While it didn't hold me in the way I expected for a sequel to Tea with the Black Dragon, there were parts that kept me riveted to find out what happened next. I'm noticing that each of her books has its own mood, and just because some characters are shared from one to the other, doesn't mean the mood/aura will. Mostly that's ok... (End digression) I had a good time with this book. Since I happen to read a fair amount of historical fiction, and a fair amount of fantasy, I appreciate an author combining the two genres well. Ruari macEibher (sp?) is one neat character, and I would like to know more about his doings before the story. Then again, Maire Standuin was not so bland herself, and I'd enjoy a good chat with her. *I* should be so strong in my self and in my differences!...don'tIwish.... BTW, if you're a parent with a kid who reads little other than horse stories, TGH ought to be given to that child. Marina Fournier Arpa: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 May 87 13:46:21 EDT From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: Re: juvenile SD -- NOURSE From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU >A favorite of mine, besides the Heinlein juvvies, was "The Universe >Between" by somebody or other.... _The Universe Between_ is be Alan E. Nourse, one of my favorite authors when I was in my teens. Some of his other books: _Raiders From the Rings_ (yea!) _The Mercy Men_ _Psi High and Other Stories_ _Trouble on Titan_ _Star Surgeon_ _Bladerunner_ (no relation, except the name) Several of Nourse's works are set in the "Hospital Earth" universe, wherein Earth is one of the few planets which has thought of medecine and medicine is our ticket into the galactic community. As you guessed, he is a doctor. Does anybody know the name of a Nourse book about two brothers, initially estranged, who end up somehow in the asteroid belt, running around in the air corridors of some kind of enemy ship? (I think there is some sort of alien mcguffin that they are supposed to have or to have stolen that sets everything off). I'd like to find this one again. Ted Nolan ted@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 13:19:34 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: juvenile SF (THE UNIVERSE BETWEEN) From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU > A favorite of mine, besides the Heinlein juvvies, was "The > Universe Between" by somebody or othe; the name that springs to > mind is Andre Norton, but that is wrong. It's doctor something... It's by Alan Nourse (which is why Andre Norton sticks in your mind --- same initials), and it is supposed to be just recently reprinted by Ace Books. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 03:38:26 GMT From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU From: (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: The Universe Between Another Alan E. Nourse book that was recenlty reissued in paperback is "Scavengers in Space". Unfortunately all I can say without giving away major plot points is that it involves the sons of an asteriod miner vs one of the big mining companies. This doesn't do justice to it. It has a *lot* of plot twists. Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 23:54:33 GMT From: im4u!ut-sally!ut-ngp!cswolfe@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael Wolfe) Subject: A. Villers In the late 60's(?) A. Panshin started writing a series about a character called Anthony Villers, a Viscount in a somewhat decadent interstellar empire. I managed to find 3 volumes in a series. In the third volume: 1) Villers(sp?) learns that his younger brother is trying to kill him to inherit his title; and 2) a fourth volume is promised in the back of the book. Does anyone on this net know if the fourth volume ever came out? Please Reply via email. I have been curious for 20 years now. Michael Wolfe Department of Information Science and Center For Cybernetic Studies University Of Texas Austin, Texas 78712 Phone: 512-471-5258 (Work) 512-451-7035 (Home) ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 13:52:57 GMT From: ag4@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Anne Louise Gockel) Subject: Re: Telepathy a curse, not a blessing Apparently Robinson's _Callahan's Crosstime Saloon_ and _Callahan's Secret_ have just been re-released by Berkley books. I believe they were out of print for a number of years. I've read about half of each so far and recommend them. They are a series of stories with the sole goal of making you feel good about life again. They take place in a small bar. People with problems come into the bar to talk about them and discover that others care. Of course a few of the people are aliens since the stories were published as SF/F. The stories seem to get depressing if taken in large doses. But a few at a time, they are very uplifting. Anne ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 14:32:52 GMT From: rochester!cci632!ccicpg!cracraft@RUTGERS.EDU (Stuart Cracraft) Subject: Re: Silverberg's "Dying Inside" (was Voyage To Arcturus) Silverberg's Dying Inside is one of my five favorite books. When I first read it, I was very impressed by the author's control of his characters and the pathos he evoked. This book is generally considered to be one of Silverberg's finest works. I once was going to a con in L.A. We were aboard an airport bus, going to the con-hotel. Also on the bus were some other rag-tag-looking people. One of them looked strangely familiar, a man with a goatee, but who was wearing a name-plate of "Fred" or "Jack". Growing more suspicious, I queried the fellow and eventually learned he was, indeed, Bob Silverberg, traveling incognito. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 16:29:02 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Silverberg's "Dying Inside" (was Voyage To Arcturus) cracraft@ccicpg.UUCP (Stuart Cracraft) writes: >Silverberg's Dying Inside is one of my five favorite books. When I >first read it, I was very impressed by the author's control of his >characters and the pathos he evoked. This book is generally >considered to be one of Silverberg's finest works. As a side note, both Brian Aldiss (author and critic for SF, in his "Trillion Year Spree") and Gardner Dozios (editor of IASFM and author/editor, in the upcoming "Best SF of the Year, Volume 4") both mention that they think that "Dying Inside" is not just one of Silverbob's best books, but one of the best books published in the 1970's. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 11:10:55 GMT From: ee4shb@ux63.bath.ac.uk (Bisson) Subject: Cyberpunk... some more! I have seen recent postings that have been asking "What is Cyberpunk?" Well, here is my two pennorth... I consider Cyberpunk to be nothing new, authors such as William Gibson, Bruce Sterling and Walter Jon Williams are only writing what Alfred Bester, Samuel Delany et al have been writing for years! Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising cyberpunk - I'm one of its biggest fans... _The Mona Lisa Overdrive_ on order (only a month to go!), _Hard Wired_ read before it even got out in the US (British import shops are dead good!) Consider Alfred Bester's novels, _Golem 100_,_Extro_ (aka _The Computer Connection_),_The Demolished Man_ and _Tiger! Tiger!_. If he had written these in the last three years (especially _Golem 100_ and _Extro_), publishers would have marketed them as Cyberpunk, with nice little quotes from Sterling or Gibson on the covers. In fact Gibsons "Sprawl" is swipped right out of those two books! The characterisation of Cyberpunk tends more in the direction of Samuel Delany, in that the protaganists are streetwise young outcasts. The fact that Delany's are poets and artists rather than Gibson's and William's technophiles lies in the fact that the "pulse" of the 60's and early 70's was "arty", whilst the late 70's and 80's are the age of the "techie". Cyberpunk can be seen as the fusion of 60's and 70's lifestyle SF (as typified by Delany and Dick) with "hard" SF - in the case of Cyberpunk, the main theme being that current buzzword... Information Technology. Just like nuclear fusion, a lot of light and heat is given out, with something more than the elements that went in coming out (grotty physics, nice image :-) ) Wait for the hype to die down... (the Spin article was OK, but inadequate & inaccurate!) ...then see what's left. I certainly am looking forward to it! But what is Cyberpunk? ..... obviously, MIRRORSHADES! :-) By the way has anyone seen that Cyberpunk ideas are appearing in maistream SF? I've seen bits in _Sun's End_ and _Lifeburst_! (_The Cool War_ is a bit early for that, but...) There are even Cyberpunky ( :-) ) adverts on the TV here, with rather _Blade Runner_ or original _Max Headroom_ ish backdrops, specifically those put out by Barclays Bank. Simon Bisson ee4shb@uk.ac.bath.ux63 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 May 87 0905-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #204 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 87 0905-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #204 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 7 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 204 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Apr 87 21:07:27 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low) Subject: Re: Boskone, yet once again >Anyway, about Boskone, I can't see why they don't make it >first-come first-served. It would be easier to manager, rather than >trying to figure out whether this guy had gone to 3 of the last 5, >or maybe only 2 of the last 5 but 3 of the last 6 and he was >pre-registered, and so on. A first come, first serve policy would be much simpler than the proposed policy for Boskone 25 *IF* reducing the size of the con was the only criterion. IN ADDITION, Nesfa also wants to keep out the hooligans that made so much trouble at Boskone 24. First come, first served does not handle this problem. The proposed eligibility rules are an attempt to address this problem. Danny Low ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 09:09 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Arrrgh! Not another Boskone (Borekone?) posting!?! Cc: LAMONTS%SDS.SDSCNET@nmfecc.arpa >"Implicit in Ms Green's comment is the assertion that _only_ those >who run the con are allowed to make suggestions on how the con is >run. By extension, only those running the government should be >allowed to make suggestions on how the government should be run. >Hmmm... I guess we can just chuck those first ten amendments to >the Constitution and scratch the first Tuesday following the first >Monday in November off the calendar, since we don't need to hear >from the rabble. I find this analogy ridiculous. Governments, after all, have the legal monopoly of physical force--they "represent" us and have power over us whether we want them to or not, whether we vote or not. If you don't like what a ConCom is doing, you can avoid their con. Or not attend any cons. Try doing that with a government. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 06:43:02 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Boskone XXV Info from INSTANT MESSAGE trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) writes: >It would seem that you did not cause trouble, based on what you >say. I don't disagree, but I am thinking of the legal >ramifications of being responsible for minors. Who is if they have >no legal guardian at the con? NESFA? If so, why should they be >the ones held accountable? I just think that it would be better >for the hotel if NESFA could guarantee this. Good point. However, I'm not sure that it isn't the "under 16"s that need legal guardians. Does anyone know the exact law, in this case? (I know, for example, that there was absolutely no problem with me travelling to Baltimore alone. I called up some ministry, that directed me to another thatdirectedmetoanother... and whoever it was that I finally spoke to said "no problem". I was fifteen, and I didn't even need a note for the border people.) Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 20:04:25 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Boskone Redux From: lll-crg!tyg (Tom Galloway) > 3) The number and variety of open parties has been increasing over > the years. I don't think there's another con in the country that > has had the type of parties that Boxboro Fandom has thrown over > the years. Themes, good food, good organization, 1500 bodies in a > hotel room :-). RPI has been throwing a chocolate party the last > few years. Etc. Boskone as a party con? The mind boggles. Try going to a Minicon some time. The difference is marked. At Boskone, the Con Suite basicly exists for those people who don't have any other party to go to. Every time I've ever dropped into the Boskone Con Suite, I've never seen anyone I've ever heard of. At Minicon, the Con Suite is *the* place to be every night of the con! Just about everyone who attends the con makes it to the Con Suite at least once during the weekend. Very few other parties take place (except small, specialized ones, such as, say, a poker-playing party). At the current Minicon hotel (and one of the previous ones as well), the Con Suite takes up the entire top floor of the hotel. > 6) Boskone is held roughly midway between two year's Worldcon. > It's gotten the rep as the "Winter Worldcon". I've *known* that > I'll see just about all my East Coast fan friends there. Couldn't > say that about any other con. Well, how about Balticon? I've never gone myself, but it seems to be large enough that a good number of East Coast fans are there. Also, I can just as easily say, "I've *known* that I'll see just about all my Mid-West fan friends at Minicon. Couldn't say that about any other con." What does that prove, except that you go to Boskone to meet your friends and I go to Minicon to meet mine? > So, Mike, what are the other cons you've been to that were more > fun for you... Well, Minicon is definitely my favorite convention. Most of my very favorite fan friends are there, there's great music being played in the Con Suite, lots of good restaurants in the Twin Cities, and so on. No, the programming doesn't always run on time, but so what? I hardly ever attend programming (the only program item I attended at this last one was the one I was on). Come to think of it, just about *every* other con I've been to was as least as much, if not more, fun than any Boskone I've ever attended. Other than Boskone 15 (1978), when a bunch of Minneapolis friends attended, I can't recall that I've actually *enjoyed* a Boskone since the early 70's. One year, I went to a Midwestcon. I probably knew less than a dozen people there, and yet I had a great time. > ...And out of curiosity, other than Worldcons, what cons were you > thinking of that were larger than recent Boskones? I'm not positive, but aren't Westercons still larger than Boskone? Granted that Boskone is still at least second place, if so. Whatever, I don't exactly consider this a selling point. I prefer smaller cons: they are much more relaxed, and I have a greater chance of actually meeting up with people I want to talk to. There are people that I know were at Boskone that I never saw (and would have liked to). Aside from Minicon (which is starting to stretch the limit at 2000 people), my favorite regular con is Pulpcon, which usually has on the order of 150-200 people. Much easier to get to know folks better and have nice talks with everyone (the only problem is that there are very few women in pulp fandom :-)). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 87 17:44:49 GMT From: galloway@vaxa.isi.edu (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: CruiseCon Well, I've got a definite problem with the idea of a CruiseCon, particularly for a Worldcon; it does a really nice job of discriminating against people like me who are quite prone to motion sickness/sea sickness. And yes, I've tried the nitro patches the one time I got dragged onto a cruise, but they still left me groggy and unable to really even read (we're talking a good approximation of my personal Hell here...). Anyway, the tax disadvantages that have been mentioned are basically that the IRS looks *very* closely at anyone who tries to deduct the cost of a cruise, and I believe a recent ruling may have made it almost impossible to do so. This causes certain problems. Did you know that any pro (writer, artist, editor, publisher, etc.) can and does deduct all of their expenses of getting to, staying at, and eating at a con as an expense of doing business? Did you know that if you put in enough work on a con to distinguish it from being a vacation, you can deduct your expenses if the sponsoring organization of the con is a 501c3 tax-exempt literary organization, which makes your expenses for volunteering a charitable deduction? Having a con on a cruise ship would quite probably rule out these deductions, making it particularly difficult to get professional guests (normally only the guest(s) of honor at a con have their expenses paid for by the con; all the other pros are there at their own expense {this doesn't count commerical media cons where the "guests" are getting paid real money to show up}). tyg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 08:05 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: CruiseCon There are several Star Trek Cruise Cons planned (one from FL, one from CA) with lots of ST stars and such. I can't recall the dates, and haven't heard anything on them recently, so I don't know what stage their in. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Apr 87 17:03:18 ast From: nico@OLDBORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (Nico) Subject: conventions/guardians Waivers of responsibility have been used by different groups before. Notably at the Pennsic War, they are required of anyone under 18 AND someone has to be responsible for you at the war. Since this event is about 4000 people, it's a good example of lots of rowdy, lively people, and it seems to work. *BUT* It's 20 miles from town, it does not advertise, people who screw up KNOW someone will take a sword to their head, and there is a standing infrastructure of security, medical, and emergency personnel and resources. Boskone, partly because of legal paranoia and partly due to lack of resources refuses to even attempt this. They also must share their hotel space with other people, while the Pennsic campsite is utterly devoured by the event. Mundanes don't freak out because there are no mundanes. There are also no walls to paint, no public furniture to steal, and everyone is polite because they go home and meet many of these people at other events. Boskone can either ignore their problems, (notice the resulting lack of hotel space), start addressing them before they get out of hand (too late), or do major changes in the structure of the con immediately. THEY DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER CHOICE. 2000 people will be screwed this year. Boskone's regulations now at least throw out the chaff, some of the wheat has to go with it or the whole batch will rot. I haven't seen or heard equally practical/ effective methods from anyone else and I don't think there are any. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 87 00:34:29 EDT From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Minors at conventions. Not to sound stuffy or anything, but: Has anyone considered the fact that in general this society does not encourage teenagers to run around without adult supervision for long periods of time? One might expect that a weekend-long convention might fall into this category. Far from being obliged to allow teenagers to continue to attend Boskone in an unrestricted, unsupervised manner, NESFA might be found liable for not providing supervision, release forms or not. In any event, perhaps the release form idea is slanted a bit wrong? Why not compel parents of minors who wish to attend conventions to sign a form reading something like this: "In the event that your child causes any damage to person or property, owned by the hotel, (insert concom of your choice), or convention attendee, you hereby agree to assume all costs, compensatory and/or punitive, required to compensate for your child's actions. Further, you agree to waive all rights to countersue the hotel, (concom), or convention attendee in any such circumstance." Concoms have enough problems with handling a convention without saddling them with being _in loco parentis_ as well. People might not like that attitude, but that's the way this society normally is about such things. If anyone would like to refute, feel free. I would be interested to hear of any other mass activity in which not only can adolescents can run about unsupervised for days, but people get mad when you suggest that such supervision could be called for. Robert G. Traynor UMass-Boston ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 07:59:32 GMT From: harvard!hscfvax!spem@RUTGERS.EDU (G. T. Samson) Subject: Re: Boskone Redux (looking for comments) boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes: >[...] No, the programming doesn't always run on time, but so what? >I hardly ever attend programming (the only program item I attended >at this last one was the one I was on). Just looking for comments here... I've been to 4 Boskones myself, now, plus some Genericons and LASTCons... Is it common that people who go to cons attend almost no programming? (This was true for me for the first 3 Boskones I went to... but I got curious this year.) Do people think it's "good" not to attend programming? Again, comments, please, not flamage... Gregory T. Samson gts@hscfvax.HARVARD.EDU gts@oberon.LCS.MIT.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 15:46:27 GMT From: beal@puff.wisc.edu (Roberta Beal) Subject: programming at cons spem@hscfvax.UUCP (G. T. Samson) writes: >Is it common that people who go to cons attend almost no >programming? (This was true for me for the first 3 Boskones I went >to... but I got curious this year.) Do people think it's "good" >not to attend program- ming? I almost never attend programming. In fact, my favorite convention - Midwestcon - doesn't have any programming at all. I've noticed something interesting about geography and programming. Those people that go to conventions in the midwest tend to go to less programming that those on the coasts. Midwestern conventions - in general - are more party oriented and less sercon. Has anybody else noticed this? As an aside, I just celebrated my 7th year in fandom at Minicon this month. Robin Beal University of Wisconsin - Madison ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 18:15:05 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low) Subject: Re: re: Boskone Redux > I'm not positive, but aren't Westercons still larger than Boskone? Westercons peaked out at under 2000 attendance. Around about the time, Westercon peaked out is when Boskone attendance started to rise dramatically. Most Westercons nowadays are about 1000-1500 people in attendance. I was on the concom of one of the larger Westercons (~1500) when the trend was still going up and we were worried at what could happen if the con got too big. From the Boskone experience, it is a real good thing that Westercons did peaked out without any major problems. I suspect holding several Westercons in Phoenix in the middle of summer may have had something to do with this. :-) :-) :-) Danny Low Hewlett-Packard ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 22:22:38 GMT From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!mirth@RUTGERS.EDU (The Reedmage) Subject: con program attendance spem@hscfvax.UUCP (G. T. Samson) writes: >Is it common that people who go to cons attend almost no >programming? (This was true for me for the first 3 Boskones I went >to... but I got curious this year.) Do people think it's "good" >not to attend programming? I don't know the general answer to your question. I myself enjoy the programming a great deal; I attend panels on subjects of interest to me (albeit sitting near the door so I can leave without disturbing people if such becomes necessary), the masquerade, and the filking (all of which I lump in under "programming" -- they're on the program, aren't they? with times and room numbers and all?). I don't go to a con just to dress wierd and buy things. I can do that at school. (Reedies dress wierd, and Portland has lots to buy). I posted this instead of emailing because I myself have been curious about the answers to this question and wanted to keep them public. Did I err? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 May 87 0918-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #205 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 87 0918-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #205 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 7 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 205 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 29 Apr 87 23:28:17-PDT From: Bob Pratt Subject: Heinlein Criticisms A very good defense of Heinlein from criticisms of this sort is Spider Robinson's essay "Rah Rah R.A.H." , which is in Spider's book 'Time Travelers Strictly Cash'. The essay was originally used as his GOH speech at Bosklone (sp) '80. It basically deals point by point with almost any possible criticism of Heinlein's writing up thru Expanded Universe. I think it is probably the definitive defense of Heinlein, so anyone who's been following this argument on the net should read it, if they haven't already. Also, the rest of the book is also good. It has some Callahan's stories and a few other random sort of things. Bob pratt@portia.stanford.edu ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 23:57:41 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Sources (RAH)..., and a minor mystery.... cel@CitHex.Caltech.Edu writes: >While checking through the biblio (years ago) I found a RAH novel >that I had never read, and in fact had never made it into PB or HB >publication. I don't recall the title, but it was one of his >serialized novels published in _Boy's Life_ back in the early '50s. > Does anyone happen to know anything about this? I found part two of a three-part unreprinted Heinlein novel in a back issue of BOY'S LIFE, and gave it to a friend who is a massive Heinlein fan. Unfortunately, I'm no longer on speaking terms with him and so can't get the date or title for you. I read it before I gave it to him, though, and let me tell you, it deserved to remain unreprinted. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 15:13:00 GMT From: harvard!ima!inmet!janw@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress In my opinion, it *is* systematic and well-documented - but is systematically unfair in its critical methods. Suppose I reviewed a star-travel novel in this way: "on page 1, a hero speaks of star travel, which is impossible. On page 10, the author describes star travel, thus losing all credibility"... and so on through the last page. The criticism would be consistent and well-documented, but quite unfair. Substitute "civilized anarchy" for "star travel", and that's what we have here. It is also unfair in particulars. Laura has already pointed out that Mannie's views are unfairly ascribed to Heinlein. But Mannie himself becomes a victim of similar misattribution: >At one point, Mannie suggests that people with bad breath or body >odor deserve to breathe vacuum too ("...some pompous choom proposed >that bad breath and body odors be made an elimination offense. >Could almost sympathize..." (161)), So, there's a person whom Mannie calls a pompous choom, and with whose opinion he (facetiously) "could almost sympathize". Nevertheless, his opinion is ascribed to Mannie. A little later, this jocular "proposal" is treated as a fact of life: >Thus, on Luna [...] the death penalty may be enacted for halitosis >[...] and, of course, Heinlein's approval is taken for granted. Now consider the main point of the essay: >Luna's people are much happier in their freer exercise of will, and >above all, Lunar society is virtually crimeless and extremely >"polite." The book also urges the reader to reject authority. By >demonstrating that, in fact, it is Luna that has the barbaric >society and Terra that is civilized, and that the book is filled >with other ideological contradictions as well, I will show that >Heinlein has managed to discredit himself and is not to be trusted >as the authority on the worlds in his own novel. The essayist, then, believes that anarchy==barbarism. How does s/he prove it? >Lunar society is not ruled in a civil manner -- it is an anarchy. Of course, an anarchy is not "ruled" at all, so the above is trivially true. Is it not "civilized" because not "civil" in the sense of having civil authorities? That's begging the issue... But "civil" also means "polite"; and the reviewer admits that Lunar people *are* extremely polite. >Anarchy is the oldest and most primitive form human society can >take, dating back to the emergence of the species. That is quite unknown. But even if it were true, this would not preclude its reappearance at higher stages of civilization. E.g., democracy existed in many savage or barbarous groups; it gave way to feudalism and other forms of government, then reappeared in modern times. In a similar way, anarchists (some of them very learned people) expect anarchy to re-emerge in a highly developed society; some non-anarchists (e.g. Marx) expect that, too. Their political theories may be quite wrong, but this can't be proved in one back-handed sentence in an essay of literary criticism. Even if they *are* wrong, Heinlein has every right, in a work of fiction, to postulate they are right. It is far less bold than postulating FTL or ESP or time travel. [It is demonstrated by quotes that the polite ways of the Lunar society and the absence of crime are bought at a price: there is an instant deadly retaliation against those who violate established norms - e.g. rapists.] Is the price worth the gain? The essayist takes the negative view; Heinlein, in a literary experiment, explores the positive. This disagreement is perfectly normal - the problem with the essay is that it merely *proclaims* its view as if everyone had to agree automatically; and that it denies Heinlein's right to experiment. >This can hardly be called a civilized society by anyone but >Heinlein's standards. Would a dictionary standard do? I checked in AH : Luna passes easily. >The bureaucracies of Terra, even though filled with so called >"yammerheads," are infinitely more suited to bringing justice and >safety to the average citizen. I found no argument in the essay to support this. >While Heinlein may not like the imposing governments of Earth >(after which planet Moon's Terra is modeled), this does not make >them any less civilized, nor does it give him the right to proclaim >his fictitious Lunar anarchy, which is literally a study in >barbarism, to be a civilized ideal. Proclamations matter little in a work of fiction. Did he make Luna attractive and Terra unattractive? Then he has made his case, and it is useless to complain. Or did he make Luna less attractive than Terra? Then he has made *your* case, and you have no complaint. Or did he draw two more complex worlds, not reducible to simple "better" and "worse" ? Or did he paint a blurry, fuzzy picture? Then these are the issues to discuss. Study in barbarism? It is a study in *anarchy*. In the *essayist's* view, anarchy==barbarism. We already know that. It is a possible political view. Heinlein explores the corollaries of *another* view. It is his privilege as a writer of fiction. >Here, Heinlein again leads himself down a path to his own >destruction. Possibly the most blatant message the book has for >the reader is one of rejection of authority. TRUE: this is its message - and its attraction. It is an anti- authoritarian book and calling it "blatant" won't defuse it. Western literature has been glorifying rebellion ever since Moses defied the Pharaoh and Prometheus defied Zeus. Far from being a writer's path to destruction, defiance of authority is a sure way to the reader's heart. >It is not enough that Heinlein himself, as the author of the book >and therefore also its most prominent authority, tells the reader >to reject authority (thereby creating a paradox), but he also >portrays the other main characters of the book blindly accepting >the authority of the professor, who spouts contradictions himself. This is a sophistical word-game: moral or intellectual authority is confused with physically coercive authority. People who reject the latter are not bound to reject the former. >There are many other examples of Prof handing out political >theories about rational anarchy to the other characters ("'...the >most basic human right, the right to bargain in a free >marketplace.'" (24) "'...there are only two things to do with an >enemy: Kill him. Or make a friend of him.'" (148) "'...government >is a dangerous servant and a terrible master.'" (240) >"'...sometimes I think that government is an inescapable disease of >human beings.'" (243)), and every time, the other characters and >the reader are expected to accept them as infallible gospel. The >characters do accept everything Prof says without a second thought. >Hopefully, the reader will not. Even the Prof himself gives these aphorisms second thought: "sometimes I think..." (see above). Having given them second thought, I see some elements of truth in them. The essayist may differ, s/he may believe that government is a *safe* servant and a *mild* master. So what? Disagreement is the salt of life. Does one have to subscribe to the Greek theogony to enjoy Homer? >(240) He even contemplates going out to the asteroids to try to >regain his personal freedom (302). This reflects Heinlein's >viewpoint that happiness has been lost because the anarchy has >ended, but hopefully the reader will realize that the possibility >of much greater happiness in the future has just been opened up. >For once, people may not have to live in constant fear of their >fellows. Only of the authorities... Again, it is established that the reviewer's political views differ from Mannie's... and this is all that is established. >So in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Heinlein, the author and >therefore the authority, asks the reader to reject authority, a >contradiction in itself. Wunderbar! It has been proven that every non-contradictory book must be in support of government! I never saw a more transparent sophism. An "authority" may mean a reliable source of informa- tion. It may also mean someone who can draft, tax, or subpoena you. The two meanings have nothing in common. An author is an authority on his book: e.g. Lewis Carroll was an expert on Wonderland. What does that have to do with accepting or rejecting governmental authority? Jan Wasilewsky ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 01:01:52 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) I will just mention one thing: In the 3/4 of THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS that was readable, Heinlein shows the future of the Lunar society of THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS. 'Tain't utopia. One suspects that he knew what was going on... Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, OH 44060 +01 216 255 1080 {decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 00:23:29 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Smith) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: > Also, take a long hard look at the way Heinlein portrays women in >most of his works: even though they may ostensibly be in control of >a lot of things (_Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ is a good example of a >society where women *supposedly* dominate), in reality they are >*nothing* more than pretty faces and sexual objects. Have you ever read anything by Heinlein? If so, how did you manage to miss Edith and Hazel Stone from "The Rolling Stones", Holly from "The Menace from Earth", the woman who taught Joe in "Gulf", most of the women in "Tunnel in the Sky", and the girl in "The Star Beast", to name a few? None of these are pretty faces and sex objects. I agree that Heinlein protrays women in an unrealistic fashion. His women are often rational, intelligent, educated, brave, and competent. Very few real women have many of these qualities. Very few men have them, either. Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 02:05:09 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) I will try to be real concise: (I'm sorry -- I forgot your real name. I'll have to refer to you as "The Cynic," or how about just "TC," no offense intended.) TC, it seemed to me that you really agreed with about half of "Mark"'s essay without realizing it! Here's why: You accuse Mark of insisting that the book's society is an anarchy, but you go on to show that it is *really* a very rigid society. Well, maybe I misread Mark's essay, but I was under the impression that that was the point (one of them) that he was trying to make: that no matter how *much* the characters claimed that they lived in an anarchy, the fact is that they *don't.* Even if that's not what Mark said, it is what *I* say, so we agree on this point. The part where you and Mark disagree is in whether or not the Lunar society is barbaric or not. Mark says it is; you say it's just the expected product of environment/living conditions that exist on the Moon. *I* say that the both uv yuz correct (almost)! I think that the Moon's society *is* the product of the crowded/tense/etc living conditions, and that it is *also*, at the same time *very barbaric*. Just because it arose naturally from the necessities in this case does not exempt it from being barbaric. It's just that in this case, a barbaric society has arisen to fit the necessities of life -- and this is not something new in history. It's the way other barbaric societies have evolved throughout history. Another little point -- Mannie *does* continually complain that Terra is soooo "barbaric" compared to Luna. Honest, he does! He even specifically uses the word "barbaric" more than once. This is maybe the point Mark was so intent on driving home: that the Moon's society is really more barbaric than the Earth's (I agree that it is), no matter *how* many times Mannie says that it is really the *Moon* that is the less barbaric. I don't think that you really disagree with Mark as much as you think you do. I read Mark's essay, then I read your reply, and I kept thinking, "But TC, you *agree* with him and just don't realize it! You and Mark only differ over a few points of semantics! What friends you could be if only you'd realize you are on the same side!" This is not meant to anger you. I'm not trying to get you to scream back, "NO NEVER NEVER I WOULD NEVER AGREE WITH MARK NEVER YOU ARE ACCUSING ME FALSLY ETC ETC ETC!!!" This is what I see. Maybe this problem can be reconciled. BTW -- I really enjoyed reading your posting. It was one of the few that came across as calmly objective, instead of frothing that Mark had pissed on your favorite author. Cheers! ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 17:09:11 GMT From: gmp@rayssd.ray.com (Gregory M. Paris) Subject: definitive Robert Heinlein summary Many years ago, Heinlein wrote some pretty decent juvenile science fiction. Years after that, he got serious and began writing pure trash. And I did it in less than 100K bytes... Now can we talk about something else????? Greg Paris gmp@rayssd.ray.com {cbosgd,gatech,mirror,necntc,uiucdcs}!rayssd!gmp ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 18:27:34 GMT From: ee163adl@sdcc18.ucsd.edu (Teh Hsieh) Subject: HEINLEIN I've been away from sci-fi for a while. I've read up to _The_Cat_Who_Walks_ Though_ Walls_, so did Heinlein publish anything new after that? I-Teh Hsieh sdcsvax!sdcc6!sdcc18!ee163adl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 May 87 0934-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #206 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 87 0934-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #206 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 7 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 206 Today's Topics: Films - Terminator (8 msgs) & Barberella & Time Bandits & Wizards (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 May 87 22:41:08 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies Many people have mentioned TERMINATOR in this discussion of good/bad sf films. I haven't seen the movie, but want to bring up a point not directly related to its quality... It is my understanding that Harlan Ellison sued or threatened to sue the makers of TERMINATOR for plagiarism, charging that they ripped off a story of his which was adapted for an Outer Limits episode. I can not quote sources on this because my library is 3000 miles away; I am not certain if he actually brought suit and won, or if they settled with him out of court, but I am quite certain that it was established that the story had been stolen from him. I have, in one of my collections, both the original story and the script for Outer Limits. I've wanted to see the movie for some time in order to compare them, but I will not do it in such a way as to support the people who stole another person's work (i.e. I wouldn't see it in a theater and probably wouldn't rent it). Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 01:03:34 GMT From: robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen) Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies While I cannot quote chapter-and-verse about the episodes and ideas that _Terminator_ supposedly stole from, I can offer a few points of argument. Supposedly there were two _Outer_Limits_ episodes which _Terminator_ 'stole' from; "Demon with a Glass Hand" and the 'soldier from the future' episode (whose name escapes me). The alleged theft from "Demon With A Glass Hand" seems to me very tenuous. There are more similaries with say, _Back_to_ the_Future_, then _Terminator_. The Soldier from the Future episode does have quite a few similarities. In the Outer Limits the hero is sent back in time accidentally, has real problems adjusting to life here, and his nemisis is eventually similarly sent back and a final clash occurs. As I recall the hero also falls in love with an Earth woman of the past, which is pat for _Terminator_, and he communicates with cats (in _Terminator_ dogs are used for terminator detectors). Lastly, the first few minutes of the Outer Limits episode and _Terminator_ are similar. Given this, I would say that indeed, _Terminator_ borrowed heavily from the nameless Outer Limits episode, and that a judgement against Michael Cameron (dir. of _Terminator_) would be valid. The similarity to Demon with a Glass Hand however is more tenuous. However! _Terminator_ is an excellent movie in its own right, based solely on the acting, directing, and screenplay. If it took ideas from existing fiction, it also contributed to the existing pool, and as such the director should not be lambasted. It is well worth viewing, and you're guilt can be assuaged due to the trailer on tapes I've seen; "We gratefully acknowledge the contributions to this story by Harlan Ellison", or some such. Besides, if you refuse to contribute to Camerons coffers you will have to miss the much-lauded _ALIENS_!! Robert Allen, robert@spam.istc.sri.com ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 04:21:49 GMT From: cmcl2!lanl!hc!hi!vince@RUTGERS.EDU (Vince Murphy [Alien]) Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies robert@sri-spam.UUCP (Robert Allen) writes: >Supposedly there were two _Outer_Limits_ episodes which >_Terminator_ 'stole' from; "Demon with a Glass Hand" and the >'soldier from the future' episode (whose name escapes me). I think the story was called "The Soldier." It, too, was written by Harlan Ellison. The episode starred Michael Ansara as a soldier who is sent back in time and must deal with the situation. >The alleged theft from "Demon With A Glass Hand" seems to me very >tenuous. There are more similaries with say, _Back_to_ The scene which comes to my mind is when the Terminator peals off the skin on his body - similar to the ideas in Demon With the Glass Hand. >the_Future_, then _Terminator_. The Soldier from the Future >episode does have quite a few similarities. [Stuff deleted] Given >this, I would say that indeed, _Terminator_ borrowed heavily from >the nameless Outer Limits episode, and that a judgement against >Michael Cameron (dir. of _Terminator_) would be valid. The >similarity to Demon with a Glass Hand however is more tenuous. I would say that Ellison probably does have a good case, on both counts, as well. People shouldn't mess with him - he knows what he's doing. >However! _Terminator_ is an excellent movie in its own right, based >solely on the acting, directing, and screenplay. If it took ideas >from existing fiction, it also contributed to the existing pool, >and as such the director should not be lambasted. No, the writers should be lambasted for not having enough originality to create a viable screenplay sans lawsuit. If the movie "took ideas from existing fiction" it really does not matter - it is plagarism in this case, I think. Vincent J. Murphy hi!vince@hc.dspo.gov ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 05:15:46 GMT From: ames!amdahl!bnrmtv!perkins@RUTGERS.EDU (Henry Wilder Perkins From: III) Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies >It is my understanding that Harlan Ellison sued or threatened to >sue the makers of TERMINATOR for plagiarism, charging that they >ripped off a story of his which was adapted for an Outer Limits >episode. They settled out of court. Ellison pocketed a nice piece of change, and current versions of TERMINATOR have a cryptic "Acknowledgement to the works of Harlan Ellison" tag added to the credits. You may see the movie without fear that you're ripping off Ellison. Henry Perkins {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 22:49:40 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Ellison vs The Terminator sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: > Many people have mentioned TERMINATOR in this discussion of > good/bad sf films. I haven't seen the movie, but want to bring up > a point not directly related to its quality... It is my > understanding that Harlan Ellison sued or threatened to sue the > makers of TERMINATOR for plagiarism, [...] > I've wanted to see the movie for some time in order to compare > them, but I will not do it in such a way as to support the people > who stole another person's work (i.e. I wouldn't see it in a > theater and probably wouldn't rent it). Two points are worth making. First, Ellison settled his differences with the producers of The Terminator (out of court to be sure, but settled nevertheless), and has been given credit on the videotape versions of the Terminator. Ellison is apparently satisfied with his (undisclosed, but presumably relatively large and monetary) settlement, and so even the most fastidious should have no qualms about renting the videotape and watching it... Ellison has been paid for whatever contribution he may have made to it. Second, as nearly as I can tell, Ellison's Outer Limits episode bears no significant resemblance to The Terminator, other than the fact that both involve cyborgs, time travel, and the Frankenstein syndrome. Once before in this newsgroup I asked if anybody had more facts than those freely available to the public (watch the two episodes, hear that Ellison sued and settled), and got no response. But based on the extremely little I know, I'd say Ellison simply sicced his "killer lawyer" on a target that happened to have a lot of money and lined his pockets, pure and simple. Certainly, Ellison's fiction has borrowed far more strongly from other and earlier SF authors than The Terminator borrowed from Ellison. My impression is that Ellison is a self-satisfied litigation-happy twit who can write one hell of a story, and often has. The Terminator episode has reinforced this impression with me. If I'm wrong, I'll be very happy to be enlightened. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 19:02:57 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low) Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies It's my understanding that the suit was settled out of court. Ellison was paid an undisclosed amount of money and a credit to him was added to the movie. TERMINATOR is worthwhile watching. It is perfectly plotted, has superb characterization and is very good hard science fiction. Danny Low Hewlett-Packard ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 21:27:07 GMT From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: > It is my understanding that Harlan Ellison sued or threatened to > sue the makers of TERMINATOR for plagiarism, charging that they > ripped off a story of his which was adapted for an Outer Limits > episode. Was this story "Demon With a Glass Hand"? Good story, but nothing at all like The Terminator (sure, a couple of superficial resemblances. There is an android involved. There is time travel involved. The fate of the human race is involved. That seems to be it. Oh yes. There was also some combat. Is Ellison claiming that any story that involves androids, time travel, the human race, and combat is a ripoff of "Demon With a Glass Hand"? Do people believe him?). Perhaps it was another _Outer Limits_ episode that Ellison was thinking of. david rickel decwrl!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 20:06:38 GMT From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams) Subject: Re: Ellison vs The Terminator throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: > But based on the extremely little I know, I'd say Ellison simply > sicced his "killer lawyer" on a target that happened to have a lot > of money and lined his pockets, pure and simple. Well, the way I hear it, Ellison has lost all of the money he won from that suit, being sued for libel for something he said in one of the comics journals. Ellison won, but he still had phenomonal lawyer fees. (I guess the moral is, be a lawyer.) Karen Williams g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 87 13:04:01 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey Subject: Bad SF Movies (Mistake about Jane Fonda) SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu writes: >Here are my nominees for WORST SF movies of all time: >... >3) BARBARELLA - Featuring a delightfully air-headed Jane Fonda in > her first film, in a fur-lined space ship. BARBARELLA (1968) was not Jane Fonda's first film. She made her motion-picture debut in the movie TALL STORY (1960), with Anthony Perkins and Ray Walston, and made other pictures throughout the 60's, including (but not limited to) SUNDAY IN NEW YORK (1963, with Cliff Robertson), ANY WEDNESDAY (1966, with Jason Robards and Dean Jones), BAREFOOT IN THE PARK (1967, with Robert Redford), THE CHASE (1966, also with Redford, and with Marlon Brando), and HURRY SUNDOWN (1967, with Michael Caine). ------------------------------ Date: Wed 6 May 87 07:54:20-PDT From: Steve Dennett Subject: Fantasy Movies (humorous) On the subject of good, funny fantasy movies, let's not forget "Time Bandits" (done by a subset of the Monty Python crew, I believe). Lots of fun! Steve dennett@sri-nic.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 87 13:16 EDT From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Wizards stuart@CS.ROCHESTER.EDU (Stuart Friedberg) writes: > Bakshi ripped off the styles of more than just Vaughn Bode for > "Wizards". For years I tried to find out who did the very > characteristic covers for Ray Bradbury's paperbacks: very angular > etchings. It turned out to be a British artist named Ian Miller. > Many of the scenes in Wizards, for example, the wrecked ships with > teeth, the cranes and machinery with grappling claws, and the > backdrop for Blackwolf's domain (that's the bad guy in Wizards, > folks) were precisely in Ian Miller's style. Copying style is a > little fuzzier than copying characters, but artists, if not the > Copyright Office, still consider it plagarism when unacknowledged. > There were some other artists whose styles and motifs Bakshi used > without attribution. Unfortunately, I can no longer recall who > they all are. There was a very good reason that those backgrounds were Ian Miller-esque; in point of fact, Ian Miller drew them! If you check the credits, his is one of the names listed. Miller's stunning backgrounds were among the many things I enjoyed about this film. Another *very* important artistic influence was that of Mike Ploog who pretty much reinterpreted the Bode style in his own image and added many other touches that were soley of his imagination. Ploog's elves for example were later 'ripped-off' by Wendy Pini (her elves are virtually indentical). Ploog was known for his stunning and disturbing artwork on Marvel's Man Thing, and some early work on Marvel's own Sword and Sorcery epic Weirdworld. As for further rip-offs of Bode, it is sad to note that it continues even further. Eclipse Comics recently published a comic called P.J. Warlock by Bill Schorr. The similarity is so pronounced as to be painful. And the afforementioned Mark Bode has made anentire career out of imitating his father, but without Vaughn's sincerity. Vaughn Bode was highly regarded among both comics and SF fans (he won at least one Hugo, if memory serves correctly) and his tragic death saddened many. Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 7 May 1987 01:49:09-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Bakshi's WIZARDS and Ian Miller From: stuart@CS.ROCHESTER.EDU (Stuart Friedberg) > Bakshi ripped off the styles of more than just Vaughn Bode for > "Wizards". For years I tried to find out who did the very > characteristic covers for Ray Bradbury's paperbacks: very angular > etchings. It turned out to be a British artist named Ian Miller. > Many of the scenes in Wizards... were precisely in Ian Miller's > style. Copying style is a little fuzzier than copying characters, > but artists, if not the Copyright Office, still consider it > plagarism when unacknowledged. Sorry to tell you this, but the scenes you described in WIZARDS were *not* ripped off from Ian Miller's style. They were done by Miller himself, and I believe he got credit in the film for having done them. While I have no intention of being a Bakshi apologist, he did, at at least one point in the film, acknowledge the work of certain fantasy artists. One of Avatar's incantations was, "Morrow Krenkel Frazetta!" Obviously a nod to Gray Morrow, Roy Krenkel, and Frank Frazetta. [I *was* going to say "some guy I never heard of named Frazetta", but thought better of it. It's obvious from previous postings that some people can't recognize humor when they see it.] --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 May 87 0953-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #207 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 87 0953-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #207 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 7 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 207 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (3 msgs) & Wallace (4 msgs) & Yarbro & Looking for Books & Book Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 May 87 13:48:03 CDT From: Jeff Myers Subject: New Tolkien Books > Two new books by JRR and Christopher Tolkien have been released: > _The Lays of Beleriand_ and _The Shaping of Middle Earth: The > Quenta, the Ambarkanta, and the Annals_. A fifth (_The Lost > Road_) is 'in preparation'. > > Has anyone read these? (I won't have a chance for several weeks > at least.) Does anyone have any comments on the first two volumes > of this set _The Book of Lost Tales_ vols I and II? Anne Thanks for the tip! I just bought volume 4. I, too, have been letting the *Lost Tales* sit on the shelf, but had just started reading volume 1 the day before I read your note. A little synchronicity action here. First, the *Lost Tales* are really for fairly hard-core Tolkien readers. It is a great way to discover the evolution of certain plot lines and characters in JRR's thought. However, you do have to battle with changing names for places, people, and things. Second, I've found son Christopher's editting to be well done and his comments thoughtful. The comments have thus far invariably picked up on the major problems and questions I have had when reading the texts, as well as pointing out minor details and less-minor ones I didn't pick up. I also find JRR's devotion to Christianity (I assume the repulsive ideas you referred to are related to that) somewhat shocking, but I am pleased and amazed at how that is kept separate from his presentation of Middle Earth to his readers. While the myth of Iluvatar has parallels with Christian thought, it has more in common with pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon mythologies. Jeff Myers University of Wisconsin Law School ARPA: myers@vms.macc.wisc.edu BitNet: MYERS at WISCMACC UUCP: {harvard,ucbvax,allegra,topaz,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!myers ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 08:31:30 GMT From: jml@computer-science.strathclyde.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) Subject: Re: Tolkien: _Lays of Beleriand_ macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes: >PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes: >>The negative scenario that underlies Tolkien's Universe causes me >>mild depression so I tend to take the pre-"Ring" histories in >>small doses. >Really? I find this interesting and unfortunate. I belong to the >small (presumably) number of readers who prefer the sagas of the >elven-lords and their struggles, triumphs, and heartbreak to the >watered-down reality of LOTR and especially The Hobbit. In fact, I >can't stand The Hobbit, though I love The Silmarillion. I agree wholeheartedly with MacLeod. The mystique and epic quality of the elder sagas far exceed LOTR(itself a pleasant little story) and especially the Hobbit.Does anyone agree that the invention of hobbits totally depreciates the 'reality' of the later ages? Does anyone know why Tolkein introduced them in the first place? Was it simply to write a story for his children? I mean you can hardly expect a group of 4 foot high plump hairy 'cute and cuddly' gnomes to rival the grandness and tragedy of the gods the elves, man, dwarf, the savage early orcs etc unless you are a child. Just think of such epics as the tale of Turin and of Beren and Luthien.For grandeur,the description of the sack of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales Vol II can barely be exceeded. jml ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 03:34:05 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@RUTGERS.EDU (Charley Wingate) Subject: LOTR vs. the Silmarillion Joseph McLean writes: > The mystique and epic quality of the elder sagas far exceed LOTR > (itself a pleasant little story) and especially the Hobbit. Does > anyone agree that the invention of hobbits totally depreciates the > 'reality' of the later ages? Does anyone know why Tolkien > introduced them in the first place? Was it simply to write a story > for his children? I mean you can hardly expect a group of 4 foot > high plump hairy 'cute and cuddly' gnomes to rival the grandness > and tragedy of the gods the elves, man, dwarf, the savage early > orcs etc unless you are a child. Just think of such epics as the > tale of Turin and of Beren and Luthien. For grandeur,the > description of the sack of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales Vol > II can barely be exceeded. I don't know about that; I find the ruins of Isengard to be one of the most striking images in the who thing. In many ways it is unfair to compare the personages in the LOTR to those in the Quenta Silmarillion (which I am going to abbreviate as QS to save lots of bits). The people of the QS are all veritable titans, so it is unconscionable that their works should not be titanic. But in LOTR, the characters are NOT titans, with perhaps a few exceptions. Sauron is clearly one; he is titanic Evil (Morgoth being godlike Evil), and indeed, the central problem to be resolved is how our very untitanic heroes are going to overcome him. Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf perhaps might be titans, but I would argue that they are not. The first two, while they appear in the QS, essentially choose to forgo their former greatness for what turn out to be very good reasons; Gandalf, while he is perhaps the most powerful of the forces of Good, is limited, and is controlled by a host of frailties. In the end, the result is that we have two very different sorts of stories. In the QS, what we have is essentially in the form of a classical tragedy; the ending is fore-ordained from the beginning. Likewise with Akallabeth. But the LOTR is different, for here Good finally triumphs-- Finally triumphs-- albeit at tremendous cost. In the first, the mighty destroy themselves, belying their nobility; in the last, the small succeed in overcoming their flaws and avoiding the temptation of self-destruction, and are thus ennobled. THe Hobbits are quite important to this pattern, as is Gandalf. This is made abundantly clear in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"; it is the things which were overlooked by Sauron, the supposedly insignificant and inconsequential beings, which turn the tide. Remember too the ents, which nobody particularly cared about, and which were the doom of Isengard. Gandalf, on the other hand, serves mostly as a distraction (for both the reader and the Bad Guys!); he's very powerful, when he is not actively thwarted, he is deliberately trying to look like the center of the action, which he never really is after the first book. The one real action he takes after that point is to expell Saruman from Orthanc, and even that is a bit of a decoy. To me, then, the two works really cannot be compared against one another; I prefer LOTR, but I don't think that this means it is the better work. It is a question of taste. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 11:57:04 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Availability of Ian Wallace books From: force10!erskine (Neil S. Erskine) > I have been looking in bookstores (new and used) for many years, > and have yet to discover any books by Ian Wallace other than 'A > Voyage to Dari'. Does anyone know if they were ever released in > North America, and whether or not they are currently available? I > was very impressed by the 'A Voyage to Dari', and would like to > read the other related books mentioned in it. Ian Wallace is a strange, but wonderful writer whose works seem to be popular enough with editors to keep them buying the books, but evidently not popular enough with consumers to keep his books in print. Except for four books that where published in hardcover by Putnam's and later in paperback by Berkley (another arm of the same company), no book of Wallace's ever saw a second edition. And with two exceptions, all of the rest appeared in paperback, all but one from DAW Books. His entire book-length output (he apparently wrote short fiction for literary magazines but not for the sf magazines) is as follows: CROYD Putnam (1967), Berkley (1968) DR. ORPHEUS Putnam (1968), Berkley (1969) DEATHSTAR VOYAGE Putnam (1969), Berkley (1970) THE PURLOINED PRINCE McCall (1971) PAN SAGITTARIUS Putnam (1973) Berkley (1974) A VOYAGE TO DARI DAW (1974) THE WORLD ASUNDER DAW (1976) THE SIGN OF THE MUTE MEDUSA Popular Library (1977) Z-STING DAW (1978) HELLER'S LEAP DAW (1979) THE LUCIFER COMET DAW (1980) THE RAPE OF THE SUN DAW (1982) THE PURLOINED PRINCE, even though it's hardcover only, is not really that hard to find if you're diligent enough. I've seen copies of it for sale here and there in my travels. The real trick is finding a copy of EVERY CRAZY WIND, published under his real name: John Wallace Pritchard. It's a psychological novel (which might account for why he considers it part of his "Adventures of Minds in Bodies" series), but not sf. This book is extremely rare. I have never seen a copy offered for sale anywhere. I have an illicit xerox of it made from a library copy, but that's all I've ever seen of it. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 May 87 14:23:58 EDT From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: Re: Ian Wallace Ian Wallace writes (wrote? haven't seen a new one in about 4 years) rather strange but appealing books, usually centered in a universe where the main planet is Erth (sic). I beleive he collectively titles all his books as "Adventures of Minds in Bodies", and that is one of his major themes, that the brain is a computer that the mind operates and that minds are not necessarily fixed in space or time. (He also has interesting conceptions of time travel - "uptime" to the past and "downtime" to the future). His first books made him seem like a 1970's successor to Van Vogt, but in his later ones he deals more with personal relationships and myth than cosmic adventure (though it's still there). His first books were from Berkley/Putnam, his later one from DAW. Here are the ones I am aware of: _Croyd_ (*) _Dr. Orpheus_ (*) _Pan Saggitarius_ _Z Sting_ (*) _Heller's Leap_ _A Voyage to Dari_ (*) _The World Asunder_ _The Rape of the Sun_ _The Sign of the Mute Medusa_ _The Lucifer Comet_ _Every Crazy Wind_ Croyd is Wallace's Van Vogtian superhuman (his species is Croyd Toth) hero, who figures heavily in the books marked with (*). Pan Saggitarius is his twin (actually it is more complex than that) who eventually gets a job in Hell, letting lost souls relive their lives (in the If Nodes of Antan) and make the right choices this time. Wallace also has a woman detective something or other St. Cyr who figures in at least 3 books of which I can recall the title only for _The Sign of the Mute Medusa_. Croyd and St. Cyr both frame the story in _Heller's Leap_, but play no part in most of it. _The World Asunder_, _The Rape of the Sun_ and _The Lucifer Comet_ are (if memory serves) unrelated to the Cryod universe. The "rape" in question, by the way, is the same as in Pope's "The Rape of the Lock". I've never seen a copy of _Every Crazy Wind_, but I think it is mentioned in the front of an couple of the others as being set in the 1940's, so it may not be SF (though I wouldn't rule it out). I always look forward to a Wallace book - anyone know if he's still alive and writing? Ted Nolan teda@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 17:37:54 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Ian Wallace Query > I have been looking in bookstores (new and used) for many years, >and have yet to discover any books by Ian Wallace other than 'A >Voyage to Dari'. Does anyone know if they were ever released in >North America, and whether or not they are currently available? I don't know if they're currently in print, but they certainly were. This is from memory, but: "Croyd" is the first book in the series. "Dr. Orpheus" is next. "A Voyage to Dari". "Z-Sting" is chronologically first. "Pan Saggitarius" (I may easily have this title wrong) isn't about Croyd but about someone else who's [literally] exactly like him. "Heller's Leap" is an unconnected book. "The World Assunder" (Do I have this title right) is also unconnected, but if you see it GRAB it. I think it Wallace's best. And I'm forgetting one. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 09:17:38 GMT From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Ian Wallace Query HELLER'S LEAP is not entirely unconnected - Croyd is in it. But it's really part of another series Wallace has done, starring Claudine St.-Cyr of the Galactic Police. Other books in the series include DEATHSTAR VOYAGE, THE PURLOINED PRINCE, and THE SIGN OF THE MUTE MEDUSA. Recommended. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 05:55:31 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Yarbro's St. Germaine Series From: vax1!ag4 > Can someone post or send me a list of the book in Chelsea Quinn > Yarbo's St. Germaine Series? In order of publication: HOTEL TRANSYLVANIA THE PALACE BLOOD GAMES PATH OF THE ECLISPE TEMPTING FATE THE ST. GERMAINE CHRONICLES [novelettes] --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 19:57:37 GMT From: dam@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Dave Montuori) Subject: Looking for new stuff from some authors.... My wife is looking for somw new stuff to read, having been through her, my, and the library's collections a least once. What she'd like to know is: 1. Is there anything new out by Joy Chant or Robin McKinley? Even rumors of new stuff in the near future? 2. Does anyone know of a date, even a vaguely approximate one, for Mary Gentle's sequel to _Golden_Witchbreed_? Please email responses to me; or better yet, to her directly! Her address is: #SLWHI1%WMMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (or just #SLWHI1@WMMVS for y'all on BITNET) Both Sallie and I thank you in advance. Dave Montuori dam@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu {allegra | cbosgd | ncsu}!uvacs!dam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 87 16:53:18 EDT From: LT Sheri Smith USN Subject: The League of Grey Eyed Women I can't keep quiet any longer. I am amazed that no one has yet mentioned this book in my 8 or so months on this net. So help me, I cannot remember the author's name, but this book ranks right up there in my top 20 favorite SF books. It's been years since I've seen it, and its probably long since out of print, but speaking of good books to make a movie out of.. this might be a good one. The story ****spoilers ahead**** (Yes, I always read these, too!!) is about a group of women who have telepathic powers by virtue of having a particular gene present on both X-chromosomes. Having both is necessary for full ability, thus men cannot have it, although having one allele causes the possessor to be more sensitive than the average run-of-the-mill type (male or female). The story details the efforts of some of the women (who believe telepathy to be an advantage) to develope gene plasticity to create a slightly longer leg on the short bit of the Y-chromosome. All of which may sound terribly dull, but truly isn't, especially not to the hapless and unknowning male they try their potion on!! Oh, yes. A side effect of having the full allele pair is grey eyes, thus the title. ****end spoilers**** This is a well-written, tight, entirely enjoyable novel. Has anyone read it besides me??? And, who is the author?? Sheri ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 May 87 1009-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #208 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 87 1009-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #208 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 7 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 208 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - BECCON Awards & Hugos & Photography at Cons & Planets & Telepathy (2 msgs) & What is SF (5 msgs) & The Perfect Creature (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Apr 87 18:06:51 GMT From: phm@stl.stc.co.uk (Peter Mabey) Subject: Awards at BECCON The main awards presented at BECCON (the 38th British Easter Convention) The Arthur C. Clarke Award The Handmaid's Tale, by Margaret Atwood The BSFA Awards Artwork: The Clocktower Girl, by Keith Roberts Media: Aliens Novel: The Ragged Astronauts, by Bob Shaw Short Story: Kaeti and the Hangman, by Keith Roberts (I think that this is the first time that any professional has won both an art and a literary award.) The Doc Weir Award (for services to British fandom) Brian Burgess In case any Conspiracy 87 member hasn't heard, I'll take this opportunity to post the information that, because of problems with our Post Office, the Hugo & Campbell nomination deadline has been extended to 1st May; all nominations postmarked up to and including 30th April will be counted, if received by Paul Kincaid (Hugo Awards Administrator, 114 Guildhall Street, Folkestone, Kent CT30 1ES, U.K.) before 8th May. Regards, Peter Mabey phm@stl ..!mcvax!ukc!stl!phm +44-279-29531 x3596 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 87 19:09:32 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Hugo categories From: William LeFebvre > ...It won the Hugo that year (1960) for "short fiction", and this > was probably the source of my confusion---both novelettes and > short stories apparently qualify for "short fiction" and I > probably only remembered the "short" bit. What's interesting is > that it seems most years there is a Hugo awarded for both > novelette and short story, but that year there was only this > category "short fiction". For all intents and purposes (it's more complicated these days), the Hugo categories can be modified. For instance, in 1958, there was no novelette category; from 1960 through 1965, the novelette and short story categories were combined into "short fiction", being separated again in 1966; the novella category didn't start until 1967; and from 1970 through 1972, there was again no novelette category. Things have been pretty stable since. > What's the dividing line, anyway? What's the difference between a > short story, novelette, novella, and full-blown novel? Unless they've changed them since the last time I read the rules, the dividing lines are as follows: Short Story: Under 7000 words Novelette: 7000-17,000 words Novella: 17,000-40,000 words Novel: Over 40,000 words --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 18:20:19 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low) Subject: Re: Photography at sf cons >Hi! I'm going to write a guide for photography at sf cons, and I'd >appreciate any help you can give me. The best source of information on this subject that I know is an article on this very subject published in (the 1986 Hugo winning) Lan's Lantern, issue 22 which is the current issue. The article is called "Shooting 'Em in the Dark" by yours truly. The issue can be gotten from: George "Lan" Laskowski 55 Valley Way Bloomfield Hills, MI 48013 There should also be a followup article in the next issue on how to run a masquerade photo area. Danny Low Hewlett-Packard ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 09:41:52 GMT From: bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) Subject: Re: Single Territory Planets ksand@mapper.UUCP (Kent Sandvik) writes: >Why on Earth :-) are the majority of the sf stories written so that >the inhabited planets are populated by: > >a) a single homogen race >b) a single nation? c) and all speaking the same language. Bob ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 09:18:02 GMT From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!rgm@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Telepathy a curse, not a blessing Spider Robinson in Callahans Crosstime Saloon.. the story called "two heads are better than one" The two brothers are telepaths, in order to shut out the rest of the world (would you want to know what EVERYONE was thinking within a 10 mile radius!?) one learns to filter, one goes completely catatonic, complete shutout of the rest of the world. Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 23:06:23 GMT From: denise@mcvax.cwi.nl (Denise L. Draper) Subject: Re: telepathy isn't always good john@bc-cis.UUCP (John L. Wynstra) writes: >Are there any other instances in SF where the subject of telepathy >is treated as a curse rather than a gift? The short story _Corona_, by Samual Delany, deals with this; the `victim' is a young child. The story appears in the book _Driftglass_ (a collection of Delany's short stories). I thought the story (and the whole book) was quite good. denise ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 15:21:55 GMT From: hplabs!mcnc!rti-sel!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Solaris, Wishsong, Radix ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: >I think I understand why you might, at first glance, think it is >hard SF: it goes into all sorts of theoretical (esp. physical) >explanations of all the various forces/powers etc. that are >floating around ... >1) While the explanations in the glossary seem to be made of > physical theories that are just sooo complex that the average > reader is completely lost in the sauce, you must realize that > all of this stuff is your basic b*ll sh*t!! None of it is > *real* theory -- Attanasio made it all up! ... For you people who care about such things, a spoiler probably follows (in my opinion, though, a book that can be "spoiled" by revealing plot details is not worth reading :-) Would Gregory Benford's "Artifact" qualify as hard SF, then? His "superquark" rolling around under the earth is -- ahem -- not *real* theory -- Benford made it all up! To my way of thinking a lot of what classifies as hard SF is also your basic b*ll sh*t tarted up to appeal to technophiles who want to think anything is possible (see, for example, almost any of Bob Silverberg's articles in Amazing). Maybe "hard" SF ain't so hard after all ... Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 01:41:48 GMT From: moews@husc4.harvard.edu (david moews) Subject: What is Hard SF? wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: >...Would Gregory Benford's "Artifact" qualify as hard SF, then? His >"superquark" rolling around under the earth is -- ahem -- not >*real* theory -- Benford made it all up! To my way of thinking a >lot of what classifies as hard SF is also your basic b*ll s*it >tarted up to appeal to technophiles who want to think anything is >possible... I think you've mistaken the source of the appeal of hard SF. It isn't that technophiles like to be deluded into thinking that wild speculations are possible; it's just the Sheer Appeal of Technogibberish. Some fantasy books probably appeal to hard SF readers as much as more conventional hard SF: I'm thinking of things like "The Magic Goes Away" (Niven). I think GW Smith mentioned this. Not even the most naive technophile could think that the events in this story are plausible; the fun is in seeing the consequences that Niven draws from his assumptions about Magic (I guess this is Oversimplified Science and not Technogibberish.) _Master_Of_The_Five_Magics_ and _Secret_Of_The_Sixth_Magic_ (Lyndon Hardy). These are pretty dreadful books, but the idea is much the same as Niven: pseudoscientific speculation is fun, whether it takes place in this Universe or another one. The author even lists his seven Laws of Magic in the front of the first book to aid our comprehension. Perhaps the "Compleat Enchanter" stories also qualify as Magic with a Rational Basis. And of course there are lots of books with loony speculations that appeal partly because of their technogibberish, like Doc Smith's "Skylark" series, or the "Lensman" series, and perhaps even _Radix_ (I dunno, I haven't read it.) After all, if the speculation in hard SF had to be completely possible, there wouldn't be many hard SF books at all. David Moews moews@husc4.harvard.edu ...!harvard!husc4!moews ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 03:28:54 GMT From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) Subject: What is SF anyhow? It seems that every time someone says "add safrgfuhregkjf to the list of good/bad SF .." someone comes back and says "That's not SF!.." Half the time they make a clean distinction between SF and Fantasy, half the time between *HARD* SF and everything else (another debate in its own right) and the other half of the time they just didn't like that one, so they don't want it polluting the genre. I've seen a lot posted that I (ME ALONE NOT NECESSARILY YOU) do not consider SF (hard soft or firm) or Fantasy, but just FICTION. (like Zelig for instance). It seems that if people out there liked a particular story/movie/.. and it wasnt a documentary it must be SF! and if they didn't it couldn't be (well, that's an over generalization but anyhow..) Could it be that SF and what the rest of the world (like my father the English Prof.) would consider (plain ordinary) Fiction are begining to overlap ? Can it be that SF is becomming an accepted literary form. Could it be that traditional SF authors are producing works that you don't need to be a pimple- faced, I live soley on taco-chips and mimeo ink teenager to read ? (Not, of course, that I believe anyone on the NET fits this description) If you stick science into a movie or book does that make it SF ? Thats the impression I'm getting from out there (want to read my nifty new SF physics text?) If you set up your story in a time/space that never existed, is it Fantasy ? If so, why don't I find Homer, Dante and Shakespeare along side Tolkien in the bookstore ? Perhaps SF as an independent genre is dying out ? I think not, but the field is getting muddier. SF now engages in all the various literary devices and ways of other more traditional genres, where the distinctions used to be very clear (any story about a sword wielding ex- scientist on mars was definitly SF) I don't think that just because a story is similar to something we consider SF it is necessarily SF, or - more to that point, if a story has a message like "we'd better take better care of our world" or "we aren't necessarily the hottest creature in the universe" it doesn't necessarily HAVE to be SF. Just because science is invoked (how can we avoid it these days?) it isn't necessarily SF. Just because its not taking place in Downtown Toronto on June 12 1986 and following whatever was current events at the time, is it necessarily SF. Face it, some of you might actually have read and enjoyed other genres of literature ! hideous thought eh ? Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 87 17:54:14 GMT From: gatech!hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok) Subject: Re: What is Hard SF? In my opinion, hard science fiction is fiction in which the author draws heavily upon known (though often obscure) science fact when inventing new worlds or concepts. Examples of authors who use such knowledge are Hal Clement, Arthur C. Clarke, Larry Niven and Frank Herbert(esp. Eyes of Heisenberg). I would guess that hard science fiction gets its appeal because it somehow seems more plausible and therefore much easier to relate to. I really enjoy reading works of an author who can explain the basis for some of what occurs in his stories. It gives the fiction a sense of realism which in turn makes it more believeable and involving. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 20:43:04 GMT From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: What is Hard SF? agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes: > Examples of authors who use such knowledge are Hal Clement, Arthur > C. Clarke, Larry Niven and Frank Herbert(esp. Eyes of Heisenberg). I'll disagree with Herbert in the hard SF category. He seems to be more in the bullshit hard-sf category--spit out lots of techno-gibberish to try and convince the reader that the author actually knows something about what he's blabbing about. _The Jesus Incident_ and its predecessor (or successor--I forget the title and the order) were especially bad in this. Some of Herbert's stuff is worth reading, but none of it (in my opinion, of course) is hard sf. Hmm. _The Dragon of the Deep_ (or something like that--the one with the oil-stealing submarines) may be a counterexample. david rickel decwrl!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 87 10:50:41 GMT From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!rgm@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: The perfect (??) creature You ask the impossible.. perfect is subject to too many variables, just ask Darwin. The perfect creature born on a 97% Helium atmosphere planet composed entirely of Andes type mountain ranges would be somewhat differently designed than one born on a planet whose suface was either water or unihabitable wasteland because the atmosphere was corrosive (like ours will be soon) Perfect is defined (in this context) by the local of evolution, and evolution tries to produce perfect creatures, i.e. any change for the better tends to be kept alive and breeding. We know too little about the universe outside of our planet, who knows whats perfect out there? A perfect creature for this planet is a more feasible task, but then for modern North America or some other part of the globe ? Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 87 11:05 EDT From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Keith Anderson) Subject: The perfect creature Have you considered making it Photosynthetic? It could have a folding membrane that it open to catch sunlight. If it could survive in a vacuum, it could have a near unlimited food supply. I am thinking of a short story I read in a book by John Varley, either _The_Barbie_Murders_, or _Picnic_ _On_Nearside_ (I think one was renamed as the other). It concerned a symbiosis between a semisentient plantoid, and a human. The plant supplied the food for the human, and protected it from vacuum, and the human supplied body wastes, intelligence, and locomotion for the plant. The plant sort of encased the human, like a second skin, and the 2 would jump around the rings of Saturn, prospecting for something. The idea would be to make the animal photosynthetic and vacuum safe on its own, and then add other goodies. Keith Anderson Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 17:37:26 GMT From: eppstein@tom.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) Subject: The perfect (??) creature gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) writes: >...a planet whose ... atmosphere was corrosive (like ours will be >soon) Uh, sorry to break the news, but our atmosphere has been highly corrosive since shortly after life came into existence. Nasty stuff, oxygen... David Eppstein eppstein@cs.columbia.edu Columbia U. Computer Science Dept. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 May 87 1026-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #209 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 87 1026-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #209 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 8 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 209 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 May 87 17:37:44 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Waldo & Magic, Inc. ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: >>... (Even in that old book of his, _Waldo and Magic, Inc._ that I >>have lying around, (which I haven't read yet -- sorry), the cover >>summaries imply that it deals with one single guy who "owns" >>Earth! The cover blurb sure makes it sound like this guy is going >>to be the protagonist, though by now, this should not surprise >>people too much.) ... > > Nope, no-one owns Earth in either "Waldo" or "Magic, Inc." > Read Before You Flame. David is right- read first. THEN flame! 8-) But really, I hardly EVER take the blurbs at their word, esp. about Heinlein. _Starman Jones_: "A young stowaway on a space ship finds himself on an unknown planet, in an unknown century, the ship and charts destroyed, and the crew dead..." This is (roughly) one of the ad blubs for this book, which is in about 5 million OTHER books. he only part that is true is that he IS a stowaway, and the ship IS damaged/lost, sort of.... The crew is not all dead- the natives kill a bunch, though. The ship is pretty much OK. The year is what it always was. This is only one example blurb authors often don't seem to really read the book. Eric ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 14:55:06 GMT From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Sources (RAH)..., and a minor mystery.... cel@CitHex.Caltech.Edu writes: >While checking through the biblio (years ago) I found a RAH novel >that I had never read, and in fact had never made it into PB or HB >publication. I don't recall the title, but it was one of his >serialized novels published in _Boy's Life_ back in the early '50s. > Does anyone happen to know anything about this? There are *2* such stories. "Nothing Ever Happens on the Moon" was serialized in the April and May, 1950 issues of Boy's Life, and "Tenderfoot in Space" was in the May-July, 1958 issues. Neither has ever been reprinted; they are the only published works of RAH I've never read, *sigh*. Source: Bibliography in HEINLEIN IN DIMENSION, Alexei Panshin, Advent, 1968. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 15:21:23 GMT From: harvard!linus!watmath!watcgl!sjrapaport@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) Kev, I'm afraid the review didn't impress me as "balanced". It seems to start out with a preconception, "anarchy is barbaric, the weak live in fear of the strong", and then draw references from the book to support it. It's very much the kind of one-sided essay I used to write in high- school literature classes. Think up a point (preferably in disagreement with the teacher's opinion), and pull references to support it. The more outrageous your thesis, and the better supported, the higher your mark. Anyway, I'll give the thing full marks on that basis, but the content is lacking in insight. I'm not trying to say that I agree with Heinlein's philosophy, but I don't think that the anonymous author of that review understands it well enough to argue with it. Heinlein believes in the enlightened anarchy because the people HE thinks deserve to live are the ones that he thinks will survive. He doesn't think that the weak will be killed, just the obnoxious. Nowhere in the book is there an instance of anyone being spaced because they couldn't defend themselves. It's always a group of people who informally decide between them that one person no longer desrves to breathe air. The hypothesis is that if you don't annoy more than one person at a time, nobody will try to kill you. (If you do, you probably deserve it.) I won't go on picking apart the review lest someone thinks I agree with Heinlein, which I don't, necessarily. Steve Rapaport U. of Waterloo ihnp4!watmath!watcgl!sjrapaport ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 87 21:38:20 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay (*SPOILERS*) dlleigh@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Darren L. Leigh) writes: > [during] The novel Friday [...the] hero visits the country of > California and finds a rich, well-developed libertarian paradise. Hmmmm. "A libertarian para..." Saaaaaaaaaay, is this is same book I read? It seemed to me that the California in the book was rather a dystopia. Or did no one else think that RAH was satirizing various tendencies in American culture by fictionally balkanizing the country? Not that I think he was particularly subtle or ingenious, but come on folks, the idea that the *cultures* that Heinlein inserts into his fiction reflect his ideology is just as simplistic as the notion that his *characters* do. Both of these notions seem blatantly false to me. If there is a consistent theme, it is much more a rather broadly sketched one of individual morality, accountability, and responsibility. If folks want to sneer and call this "elitism", that's fine I suppose. But I hope you'll pardon me for nevertheless finding the stories interesting *as* *stories*, and I don't see the sense in ritually abhoring Heinlein for all the crackpot garbage he himself is baselessly accused of... uh, excuse me, I mean of course all the insightful interpretation to which his fiction is subjected. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 87 21:44:37 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Heinlein-bashing Y'know, folks... it seems to me that, during the Maroney out-of-context dispute about Heinlein, and during this more recent "anonymous essay" business, I perhaps come across as a drooling Heinlein zombie, as Maroney once upon a time accused anybody who defended him of being. Well, I want to say loud and clear, here and now, that I don't think Heinlein's fiction is the greatest extant (Of SF authors I rate him about 5th or a little lower, depending on mood and circumstance). And I don't even have an opinion of the man himself, as I have no faith in armchair psychoanalysis of an author via the author's fiction. But it seems to me that I ought to point out a couple of specific things I find extremely annoying in Heinlein's work, just to... oh I dunno... lend credibility to my appreciation of his work in general. The first is the very prevalant references to "the race", meaning all of humanity, and the constant justification of various actions on the part of the protagonists as promoting the welfare of "the race". Why do I find this annoying? Well, I have no idea whether Heinlein thinks so or not, but I think the notion that individual actions can or should be justified on pseudo-evolutionary benefit-of-the-race rationalization to be purest nonsense. The second is related to the first. Heinlein explains far, far too much of his female characters' motives (and his male characters' reactions to female characters) in terms of pseudo-evolutionary reproductive-related social-Darwinistic nonsense. His characters' constant and conscious exploiting of every possible opportunity to get pregnant and raise children, coupled with the smug self-satisfaction these characters project while engaged in this pursuit I find particularly nauseating. The third is that many of Heinlein's protagonists are abrasive, annoying, pompous, self-satisfied jackasses. Lazarus Long in particular. While this makes for an entertaining story, and while I don't have any faith whatsoever in psychoanalyzing Heinlein on the basis of Lazarus' perceived faults or virtues, the fact remains that when Lazarus is in control of a conversation and has the ear of an audience, he is one of the most boring old farts I've ever had the misfortune to listen to. But this very opinionated jack-assery is one of the things that makes Lazarus an excellent protagonist for action, adventure, and romance. In other words, I enjoy Lazarus' memoirs and accounts of his experiences, but when he gets to justifying himself or simply shooting the breeze with other characters on Tertius (do I have the name of the planet right?), he loses his appeal quite quickly. The first two points I fault as being implausible behavior. The third is all too plausible, but still doesn't excuse giving the self-agrandizement of a boring old fart so much of center stage in what is supposed (I hope) to be entertainment. But all of Heinlein's faults put together and at their most oppresive don't ammount to diddly in comparison to the bulk of shallow sophomoric twaddle that purports to be criticism against him. Oh, foo, now you've all got *me* sounding like a boring old disgruntled fart myself. Such is the danger of literary criticism, I suppose. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 05:07:13 GMT From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* SPOILERS *) I'd like to thank all the contributors to the Heinlein discussion, and Peter Kiehtreiber in particular, for providing me much interesting reading. Great essay, Peter, but I must register one *strong* disagreement: why do you think this discussion is best moved to email?? It's interesting, it's spirited without being overly flamacious, and it's about ideas. SF is supposed to be the literature of ideas, right? I mean, I love SF movies, too, and even enjoy STAR TREK (but you trekkies/trekkers *do* have your own group, you know), but I prefer to see this group primarily be about written SF, and ideas. Well, onward. I'll try to stick to points not yet covered, or not adequately covered, in previous articles. I am surprised, in this bicentennial year of the Constitution, that no one has pointed out how much of the Loonie's revolution was consciously modeled on the American Revolution. It occurs in 2076, they adopt the Declaration of Independence nearly whole, and their basic problem is absentee rulership. Perhaps most significant to the current discussion is their working out of a Constitution. The Heinlein critics point out that the Prof and his cronies railroad their own ideas in, and popular will be damned. Well, read your history, guys. Compare the charter the Philadelphia convention had with what they actually did. Were they really empowered to simply throw out the Articles of Confederation, and put a new, strong national government in its place? Not really. Their only authority was necessity. Did they ask the people what they thought of the new Constitution? Nope. They were the ones who'd run the revolution, and they felt they were the ones with the means and the ability to create the new United States of America. Heinlein is *quite* explicit in evoking the parallels, in large ways and small. Remember a passing reference to a "Foo-Moses Morris", who financed the Loonie's revolution in large part, and went bankrupt in the process? Funny coincidence: there was a fellow named Morris who was mainly responsible for keeping the American Revolution solvent, and he ended up going broke, too. Whatever you may think of RAH's politics (or what you *think* are RAH's politics :-), there is no question that he is more knowledgeable of real-world politics than 99% of the world's SF writers. He's run for office himself (read MAGIC, INC for a look at his shot at politics, disguised as fantasy). When he writes of the political machinations and cloakroom maneuvering in the Loonie's revolution, he's not plugging ideology, he's simply showing you the real world. Revolutionaries that know only guns and propaganda are never successful. If their revolution succeeds, they end up being next in line for the gallows after the former rulers; look at the French Revolution for a perfect example. Those who see contradiction, who claim RAH's characters betray RAH's supposed ideals with their pragmatism, are failing to appreciate RAH's own pragmatism. In RAH's novels, idealism is how you decide on your goals, but pragmatism is what you need to reach those goals. Is this contradictory, or merely too complex for the true ideologues to appreciate? Quite a few people seem to find Heinlein's love of courtesy, and his suggestions of Draconian punishments for rudeness, outrageous. Quite a bit of this is clearly from biased reading, since things like Mannie's suggestion that halitosis should be grounds for throwing someone out the airlock were clearly facetious; geez, guys! But the virtue of politeness is a recurring theme in RAH's books, and deserves further discussion. Heinlein, himself, is a gentleman of the old school, and a great believer in civilized manners. His emotional reaction to rude and obnoxious persons is, I suspect, not all that different from Mannie's. One of the fringe benefits of writing fiction, you know, is getting to take vicarious revenge on the various pinheads one encounters in real life. Heinlein obviously enjoys writing about places where the obnoxious get their just desserts, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the minor obnoxious characters in his books are strongly based on rude twits he's had the misfortune to encounter in real life. But let's not go assuming he's in favor of capital punishment for bad manners. He has given such an idea a serious presentation sometimes, though. A better example than MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, is BEYOND THIS HORIZON, with its gun-toting bravos and legal dueling. Admittedly, this is probably not everyone's ideal society :-), but those who have criticized it have failed to address Heinlein's argument for it: that such a society would not only be more polite, but also *less* violent, than our own. Why? Because (according to Heinlein, at least) few of the rude and obnoxious would be foolish enough to hold on to such bad habits in a society that permits dueling, and the few that did, wouldn't last long. Overall, though, it's best not to assume Heinlein is actively in favor of every idea he presents in his novels with *apparent* approval. What has always stood out for me in his books, more than the semi-libertarian politics, more than the advocacy of relaxed sexual mores, more than the idolization of family, and of good manners, is that this is a man who likes to *play* with ideas, a man who is perfectly happy to play Devil's advocate with a straight face, a man who enjoys pricking his readers with novel and unsettling notions. I would never say that his books don't often reflect his own opinions; it's clear they frequently do. But I'm not always sure *when* they are his real beliefs, and when he's just throwing something at me because it's interesting, plausible, and worth thinking about. Heinlein seems to hate the unthought response, the reflex opinion, and combats it by novelty, by hitting people with ideas not quite like the ones they're familiar with, ideas that can't be effectively refuted by simply borrowing some favorite ideologue's thoughts as counter arguments. But some people don't let that stop them. They'll cut and squeeze and interpret and misinterpret and distort, until they've force-fit Heinlein into a pigeonhole they can deal with, and then attack this straw man, now neatly packaged as a Libertarian, or anarchist, or fascist, or militarist, or sexist, etc. Perhaps this is RAH's failure, as well as theirs. Perhaps he's not iconoclastic enough to break these molds people put him in, or perhaps he's just not a good enough writer to get his real message across to a lot of the readers. But, like Twain, I suspect there's some justice in respecting him for the frequency with which he's misunderstood. Anyone who can make everyone mad at him can't be all bad :-). Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 May 87 1038-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #210 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 87 1038-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #210 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 9 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 210 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 May 87 00:34:58 GMT From: smann@ihlpa.att.com (Mann) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) writes: >ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: >> Also, take a long hard look at the way Heinlein portrays women >>in most of his works: even though they may ostensibly be in >>control of a lot of things in reality they are *nothing* more than >>pretty faces and sexual objects. > >Have you ever read anything by Heinlein? > >If so, how did you manage to miss [mention of several of RAH female >characters]? None of these are pretty faces and sex objects. I have to agree with Kevin. In fact, he pointed out the thing that bothers me the most about Heinlein's books - especially more recent ones - that although the female characters supposedly were strong, independent women, they seemed to me to be filling a sexual fantasy role for the male character. What a turn on - to be able to dominate such strong, independent women! I certainly can't identify with these women. Sherry Mann ihnp4!ihlpa!smann ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 87 19:43:47 GMT From: c60a-4er@tart21.berkeley.edu (Class Account) Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: >This pattern cannot be ignored! It most definitely says something >about Heinlein. (Even in that old book of his, _Waldo and Magic, >Inc._ that I have lying around, (which I haven't read yet -- >sorry), the cover summaries imply that it deals with one single guy >who "owns" Earth! The cover blurb sure makes it sound like this guy >is going to be the protagonist, though by now, this should not >surprise people too much.) Please, Kev (may I call you Kev?). Remember that the blurbs on the back of books are not written by the author, and sometimes bear shockingly little resemblence to the actual contents of the book. Whether you are right or not about _Waldo_ (_Magic, Inc._ is a separate short story in the same book), you're not doing your readers a service with this kind of guess. Also, use of a character in any role, even the main role, even in many books, is still not to be considered author approval of that character. Think about the protagonists of many of Shakespeare's tragedies. One doubts that Othello or Lear represent their author's moral or political views....Characters are used because the author has found an interesting story to tell about that person. His idea of what is interesting no doubt reflects his political views, but he may find characters interesting whose political and moral views are totally repugnant to him. (Or her.) Mary K. Kuhner ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 20:47:13 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) > ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) >> snuggle@rpiacm.UUCP (Chris Andersen) >> [Heinlein's message is to defy all authority, even his] > This, I would venture, is the best counter argument so far to > the essay about _Moon_ I posted a while back. Oh, come ON. Ignoring all the more powerful arguments against you won't make them go away. What about the fact that the "self-contradiction" Heinlein is accused of is really a mismatch between Heinlein and one of his characters? How about the fact that the nature of any "authority" Heinlein may have is in no way comparable to the "authority" his characters overtly bid us to question or resist? Or how about the fact that *even* *if* the book were conceptually incoherent as a paen to anarchism (and note that it is actually neither incoherent, nor a paen to anarchism) it would still be a ripping good story? Face it, that essay is a crock of gibberish. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 21:02:22 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) > allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) > I will just mention one thing: In the 3/4 of THE CAT WHO WALKS > THROUGH WALLS that was readable, Heinlein shows the future of the > Lunar society of THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS. 'Tain't utopia. > One suspects that he knew what was going on... Including me, I'd make that "Two suspect that he knew what was going on..." And I'd be unsurprised if there were more. In fact, one doesn't even need to drag in "Cat" as support for the rather obvious point that the essay is all wet when it claims that Heinlein is setting up Lunar society as a utopia. There is plenty of internal evidence in "Mistress" that Mannie was looking at things (and thus, perforce, WE were looking at things) through heavily rose-tinted optics. Not that Mannie is all *that* deluded. I think the essayist is making a silly mistake in that when Mannie is describing how things *actually* work on the Moon, the essayist seems to assume he is prescribing how Mannie (and, ludicrously, Heinlein) think they *ought* to work in an ideal society. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 21:06:10 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: > The Prof's character, in my opinion, is *loaded* with > contradictions. I think he is an elitist, not a libertarian. I > don't think he feels morally obliged to do anything for anyone but > himself. First of all, this is hardly a contradiction. It doesn't even contradict what little the Prof said about his own views on morality. Second, it hardly seems implausible that the Prof is attempting to save the moon from the clear and present danger of starvation. His motives in this could be many things, including love of his comrades in general, or his close friends in particular, even if not concern for his own skin. And again, it is hardly a "contradiction" for him to do this by cheating and stealing and acting against the expressed (though naive) wishes of the people on the moon in general. Would you steal (or commit vandalism, or assault, or whatever) to prevent murder? This is, in essence, what the Prof was about, and he made no bones about it. The claim to find this a "contradiction" in his character is at best absurd, and at worst willfully obtuse. > Maybe this is one of the things the "Essay" was trying to point > out -- the Prof is *not* a libertarian. No matter *what* he keeps > *claiming* to be. Since the Prof never claimed to be a libertarian, it is hardly very clever of the "Essay" to point out that he does not seem to be one. Now, one can point out that Heinlein's characters are often elitist, and it may possibly be that Heinlein is himself. But this boils down to "I don't like TMIAHS because I disagree with some subtextual message in it." Which is still fine... but that doesn't make it a bad story, or self-contradictory, or uninteresting. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 1987 10:16 PDT From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Why do Heinlein's books get people angry? Could it be that they present counter-examples to ideas that people feel strongly about - physical handicaps, theology, racism, sexism, ageism, etc. For example, and in no particular order: Samuel Delany points out that in "Star Ship Trooper" the narrator is Black. Others have suggested that two characters in the same book are homophobic. In "Waldo" the hero is almost totally paralised. In "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" the narrator has only one arm and is apparently part Hispanic. The "Loonies" are clearly part Russian. They are are rejects - criminals and/or political deportees - or descended from them. One "hero" is an anarchist revolutionary from South America. He suggests that Jefferson was also an anarchist! In "The Green Hills of Earth" the hero is blind. In "Friday" the hero is female and appears initialy to be in a similar situation as an early mail hero (from "Assignment in Eternity"). Both characters are targets because of their genetics. "Revolt in 2000" is about a diverse group of dissenters attempting to break a religiously motivated and structured government. Following stories in the series (such as "Coventry") explore the handling of those who are different in a "sane" society. In "Methusalah's Children" a minority is persecuted because of their genetic endowment - and escape. In the above RAH presents an scientifically based Darwinian model which may disturb some people. In the following he does the reverse: "Magic Inc" is set in a cosmos where traditional magic works but in other respects is a typical USA culture. In "The Number of the Beast"(666) (*SPOILER*) there are four narrators. The older female that ends up in charge. To some extent the two of the four heroes are a counter-example against "ageism". An upper class Britisher with a fairly typical set of prejudices turns up as a villain. On the other hand the real villains ("vermin") seem to become parts of the author's plot machinary. In 666 an earlier pair of heroes (from "Revolt in 2000" and "Methusalah's Children") re-appear - one as bisexual and the other as trans-sexual. 666 describes several alternative or possible "Earths" and in each it is clear that the cultures are very different - For example: a Bible based religion where people go to church naked, and a notion of justice based on 'an eye for an eye'. It is possible that "our" Earth is dismissed by Hilda as a bad place to have a child. (*End of SPOILER*) "Stranger in a Strange Land" explores of religious prejudice and persecution. The most sympathetic characters work in a traveling carnival. It describes a theology that is blasphemy to some Christian denominations. On the other hand the fundamentalist narrator of "Job" is presented sympathetically while being slowly educated in tolerance. His apotheosis is well worth waiting for. By The Way (*SPOILER*) Is there a likeness between the cosmos of "Job" and Branch Cabell's Poictesme Universe? (*End of SPOILER*) Personally - I like RAH's books because they are readable and entertaining. ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 16:45:38 GMT From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) Heinlein is a complex writer. He has explored an enormous range of human societies and an enormous range of possible relations between men and women. I used to have great fun innocently handing STARSHIP TROOPERS to flower children types who 'just loved' STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND and were desperate for another book by the same author. Similarly, people who think Heinlein's females are just pretty faces and sex objects are easily refuted by a long list of strong, tough, independent examples. There are also several refuting examples for Sherry's more complex complaint that the strong women, while there, are always there to fulfill some man's fantasy of being 'man enough to conquer and hold such a woman'. Remember GLORY ROAD? Remember how all through the book 'our hero' is getting his fantasy of being a real hero created, played to, bolstered up, by Star and Rufo? Remember how she calls him 'my lord' and lets him dominate her in all sorts of things? Remember his rude awakening in the last part of the book? Rufo (the supposed groom who has done all the scut work on the quest while Star catered to our hero's fantasy) has promised to explain all when the quest is over. He starts with a pretty deflating message for a fantasy hero who thinks he's won the fair princess by force of arms. "Well, son, she's really the Empress of twenty universes --and my grandmother." Things go steadily downhill from there, as Oscar realizes that the 'fair princess' he has married picked him up and trained him for one specific mission (where he was the dumb strength and she took care of strategy and tactics) and now, although grateful, is revealed as so far beyond him in age, knowledge, understanding, power and responsibility as to make him feel childish. He hangs around for a while, learning all the lessons that have usually been reserved for beautiful naive young women who marry men considerably 'above' them. He doesn't fit into her working life, and can't really comprehend what it is she does. He doesn't even really fit into her social life, except as an ornament and a plaything in bed. He has no real work and is of no real use; and all her efforts to make him feel better only make him feel worse, because they are so obviously make-work. He eventually leaves. Have you read THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST? Do you remember that the whole first part of the book is basically an exercise in pointing out that in order to survive the passengers in a 'lifeboat' had better have a captain who is obeyed unquestioningly? Do you remember who turns out to be the only capable captain? Not the fantasy hero type, not the brilliant computer programmer, not the genious scientist, but Hilda Burroughs, all round reniassance woman with a gut instinct for organization and command. Note that she is shown, not only as the best captain, but also as the only one capable of getting the rest of the 'crew' (even her husband) to recognize her superiority for command. Do you remember the ultimate non-sexist love scene constructed by Heinlein in TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE? Two minor characters who know of one another only by professional reputation (from dossier's that carefully leave out trivial details like sex) meet while working in isolation suits so concealing that they have no idea of the other's looks. He is a short slight man. She is a big woman. They get to know and admire one another while wearing the suits. He invites her to spend a night with him assuming she's a man. She accepts thinking he's a woman. When they get out of the suits both are a bit suprised but they decide to have the night together anyway. Heinlein has been exploring POSSIBLE relations between men and women, not pushing one set that he finds 'politically correct'. His works should be enjoyed on that basis. Carole Ashmore ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 14:08:54 GMT From: k@eddie.mit.edu (Kathy Wienhold) Subject: Heinlein, Women & "Glory Road" Carole Ashmore writes: >There are also several refuting examples for Sherry's more complex >complaint that the strong women, while there, are always there to >fulfill some man's fantasy of being 'man enough to conquer and hold >such a woman'. I can't comment on the other works mentioned, but I couldn't let this one go past. >Remember GLORY ROAD? Remember how all through the book 'our hero' >is getting his fantasy of being a real hero created, played to, >bolstered up, by Star and Rufo? Remember how she calls him 'my >lord' and lets him dominate her in all sorts of things? Remember >his rude awakening in the last part of the book? [Synopsis of >Oscar & Star's rel'nship is a role-reversal of "beautiful naive >young women who marry men considerably 'above' them"] Oh, come on! Here we have the (supposedly) wisest person "in the twenty universes", and the best way she can come up with to handle the situation is to fall back on the old "manipulate the man using sex" routine?!!! I'd hardly call that an enlightened or liberated view of women. In fact, the book nauseated me. Kay k@mit-eddie.UUCP kay@MIT-XX.ARPA) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 11 May 87 0847-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #211 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 11 May 87 0847-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #211 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 211 Today's Topics: Books - Cabell (2 msgs) & Card & Chandler & Cherryh & Fast (2 msgs) & Friedman (2 msgs) & Spider Robinson & Tevis & Tolkien & Yarbro ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 08 May 87 08:05:56 EDT From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA Subject: Cabell While in the topic of fantasy a few years ago somebody (Del Rey) repackaged a set of books by James Branch Cabell(??). They were written in the 1920(s) and thoroughly delightful.The man had a way with words and an incredibly dry sense of humor. I loved them so much I lent them away and now I wish I had them back. If anyone knows where to get them please tell me. If you haven't read them check them out. Jerry Freedman,Jr jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 04:33:56 GMT From: ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (ROBERT LEONE) Subject: Re: Cabell I'm glad that people out there have read Cabell. Unfortunately, one of the man's problems is that almost all of his books are written in the same style. Since he's got scores of volumes in his rudely interconnected fantasy series, it's tough to get through so much of a sameness. However, his writing is delightful, at least for a few books. I'd recommend you read "Jurgen", a delightful send up of censorship that was nearly barred from the us in 1922 when first published (long before Miller's Tropic of Cancer(or was it Capricorn?)). Wonderful obscenity trial that. Then there's "Figures of Earth" where the man does irreparable damage to the story of the life of Christ. Then there's "The Silver Stallion", where Arthurian romance takes it on the chin. With luck, you will be able to find at least "Jurgen" in the SF paperback section (also try pop or general lit paperbacks) in a big used bookstore. If it has used copies of books by E.R. Eddison, it should be big enough to have "Jurgen" with a high degree of possibility. For reading purposes, adequate libraries should have some of Cabell's books. However, the only library I know with a copy of "Hamlet Had An Uncle..." is the Library of Congress. Some of Cabell's work is very hard to find. Perhaps, for this day and age, the important thing about Cabell's work is that it presents to us a non-Tolkienian model of purest fantasy. I'd swear Robert Asprin had read some Cabell before he began working on the Myth Series. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 87 21:05:43 MDT From: donn@cs.utah.edu (Donn Seeley) Subject: Orson Scott Card scripts Mormon cartoon feature I rarely pay much attention to movies, so forgive me if this has already been talked to death... Paging through the University of Utah student newspaper, I came across a curious ad whose headlines screamed THE MOST INCREDIBLE SUMMER JOB EVER!!! -- ANIMATED STORIES FROM THE BOOK OF MORMON. Some organization called The Living Scriptures is recruiting student labor for this project and screened a 'sneak preview' in the Student Services Building yesterday. The ad displays a very Disneyesque scene featuring crumbling walls and a crowd of people in Biblical costume. The director is Richard Rich (THE BLACK CAULDRON, WINNIE THE POOH), the score is by Lex De Azevedo ('conductor of the London Philharmonic') and the script is by Orson Scott Card. One can only hope that Card improves on the turgid prose of his sources. Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@cs.utah.edu 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 utah-cs!donn PS -- Some people have theorized that the Book of Mormon started out as a fantasy novel written around 1800 in the style of the King James Bible; if that's true, then the Disney treatment seems even more appropriate for it. After all, if they can do ALICE IN WONDERLAND... ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 04:10:41 GMT From: gatech!sdcsvax!man!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith) Subject: Bertram Chandler I don't know about everyone else on the net, but I'm a real fan of the novels by Bertram Chandler, with John Grimes (I think). Unfortunately, I don't have any of the novels and can't seem to find them in the stores. The one title that comes to mind is "The Far Traveller". Anyhow, does anyone out there have a listing of the books he's written? Does anyone know if the guy is still alive and writing? (If he's not writing, I don't care :-). Thanks, David L. Smith sdcsvax!sdamos!sdeggo!dave ihnp4!jack!man!sdeggo!dave hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave sdeggo!dave@sdamos.ucsd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 16:08:16 GMT From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore) Subject: Re: Pell? aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry) writes: > have heard many references to Pell there and other places but > don't remember much about it in any of her books. Does she have a > book or short story that talks about Pell? Pell is the first > encounter with another sentient race? Have I missed an important > event in the future? Oh darn! I will have been late again! Pell, or Pell's World, is referred to as Downbelow, by the inhabitants of DOWNBELOW STATION, which is the title of the novel that won Cherryh a Hugo in 1982. Many people consider it her best book. The first chapter of the book might better be considered an introduction (the story starts in chapter two) and details the slow exploration of humans out from earth by creating 'star stations' as stepping stones. In this chronology, Pell is the first world where intelligent aliens are encountered. The novel MERCHANTER'S LUCK takes place just after the events in DOWNBELOW STATION, and has a few minor characters in it who were in DOWNBELOW STATION. Much of it's action takes place at Pell. Pell is also mentioned briefly in the novelette SCAPEGOAT where it is said that the main character, John DeFranco, was born on Pell station. This novelette links the universe and culture of the 'Pell' series with that of 'The Faded Sun' trilogy. The major that DeFranco reports to is Surtac, as was Sten Duncan in 'The Faded Sun' books. Consider yourself very lucky, having these yet to read; all three of them are among her best work. Carole Ashmore ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 08:26:20 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: THE LEAGUE OF GREY-EYED WOMEN From: LT Sheri Smith USN > ...I am amazed that no one has yet mentioned this book in my 8 or > so months on this net. So help me, I cannot remember the author's > name, but this book ranks right up there in my top 20 favorite SF > books. It's been years since I've seen it, and its probably long > since out of print...Has anyone read it besides me??? And, who is > the author?? Well, I'd be amazed if it *had* been discussed, especially in the last eight months; it's not exactly a popular classic. I read it, or at least, I read the original shorter version that ran in VENTURE SF MAGAZINE back around 1970. I thought it was OK, but hardly memorable (literally --- I had forgotten it completely until your posting reminded me of it). Anyways, the author is Julius Fast, brother of sf and historical novelist Howard Fast. The novel hasn't been in print that I know of since it first appeared in paperback in the early 70's. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 9 May 1987 07:39:23-PDT From: fusci%showit.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Ray Fusci) Subject: Re: Author request Julius Fast, _THE_LEAGUE_OF_GREY-EYED_WOMEN_, PYRAMID, 1971, ISBN 515-2574 (I guess that would be 0-515-02574-0 now) This book is classified as "Suspense", rather than "Science Fiction", so most of us probably wouldn't have run across it at the bookstore (my copy was a present from one of my mother-in-law's forays into a used-book store.) "JULIUS FAST is a medical journalist and is the author of many books, including: _The_Beatles_, _Blueprint_for_Life_, _What_You_Should_Know_ About_Human_Sexual_Response_, and _Body_Language_." Ray Fusci ARPA: fusci@scotch.dec.com UUCP: ...!decwrl!scotch.dec.com!fusci ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 23:49:34 GMT From: harvard!linus!watmath!watcgl!sjrapaport@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: C.S. Friedman's "In Conquest Born" At last, someone who writes like Frank Herbert would like to but never did. A book full of subtle (and not-so-subtle) manipulation, feints within feints, and quick turnabouts, lacking nothing but the self- congratulatory chapter headings that Herbert was so pleased with. I'll have to agree with Chuq on the **** rating. Friedman's universe is quite convincing, and has enough reality of its own to make character types like "Braxana'" and "Azean" useful concepts. (Heinlein says that writers with imagination and style actually create the universes they write about, on some weird plane. If he's right, there's now one more nifty universe among the 6^6^6.) The book is difficult to put down, since the action is one long crescendo from start to finish. (Sort of a literate Ravel's Bolero.) Bravo (brava?), C.S. Your audience awaits more. Steve Rapaport U. of Waterloo ...!ihnp4!watmath!watcgl!sjrapaport ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 17:09:47 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: C.S. Friedman's "In Conquest Born" >I'll have to agree with Chuq on the **** rating. Friedman's >universe is quite convincing, and has enough reality of its own to >make character types like "Braxana'" and "Azean" useful concepts. I find it fascinating that "In Conquest Born" has been the only book I can remember where everyone who's discussed it on SFL has liked it. The WORST comment I've seen on it to date is "It isn't as good as you think it is, chuq, but it's good" (or some such). Such unanimity in this group is rare, and I think it says more for the quality of this work than anything else. I've heard through mutual friends that the Wollheims had great hopes for this book -- hopes that look to be coming true. This may turn out to be the find of the year (and maybe the book of the year, although it is much too early to tell). It is definitely going to be at least as big as Tailchaser's Song was (TS has sold over 100,000 paperback, plus a strong hardback sale in the U.S. It has also sold in four foreign markets, and the Italian hardcover was a national bestseller...) It just goes to show that (1) a good first novel will get published; (2) a good first novel will make money for the author and the publisher; and (3) they ARE publishing good books out there. It is just a matter of finding them. You folks can go out and complain about the latest Asimov or Heinlein retread, I've found that by searching out and reading the new authors I've run into a LOT of really neat fiction. Many of the books are simply average (but then so is, to me, most of the work of the Big Names who don't need to stretch any more to make money) but you'll also find the new ideas, new trends, and new stars that way. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 02:58:15 GMT From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman) Subject: Re: Telepathy a curse, not a blessing ag4@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Anne Louise Gockel) writes: > Apparently Robinson's _Callahan's Crosstime Saloon_ and > _Callahan's Secret_ have just been re-released by Berkley books. > I believe they were out of print for a number of years... I don't know about reprinting, but the second Callahan's Place book is _Time_ Travelers_Strictly_Cash_. _Callahan's_Secret_ is the third book (though Robinson insists that that doesn't REALLY make it a trilogy) and reveals a lot (and therefore should not be read (*I* think) before or between the others). Also, it just came out last year in paperback (I'm pretty sure of this, though not positive, because the last story in it, "The Mick of Time," was in Analog a little before that). jed hartman ...{{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 20:43:55 GMT From: seismo!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Post holocaust book search howard@pioneer.arpa (Lauri Howard) writes: > My sister is looking for a book she read several years ago. It's > post holocaust and people have lost technical knowledge. There is > one person, who is really an android, who keeps things working. The book is _Mockingbird_, by Walter Tevis. It isn't really "post-holocaust", in the sense that there was no nuclear war, but it does deal with the survival of humanity and related issues. I thought it was pretty good. John ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 18:01:56 GMT From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto) Subject: Re: LOTR vs. the Silmarillion mangoe@mimsy.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: > Gandalf, on the other hand, serves mostly as a distraction (for > both the reader and the Bad Guys!); he's very powerful, when he is > not actively thwarted, he is deliberately trying to look like the > center of the action, which he never really is after the first > book. The one real action he takes after that point is to expell > Saruman from Orthanc, and even that is a bit of a decoy. I would take some exception to the point about Gandalf. Without him, the West would have fallen. Ever since he came from across the Sea, he strove to fight Sauron ("I was the Enemy of Sauron", Return of the King, p. ?). He (along with the other Istari) established the White Council to use their combined powers to thwart Sauron's plan. It was he who entered Dol Guldur twice and came out with Thrain's map and ring. This enabled Thorin's expedition to succeed, which had three major consequences: 1) Bilbo found the Ring; 2) Smaug was destroyed; 3) A major Dwarf kingdom was founded in friendship with the Men of Dale inside the Lonely Mountain. It was Gandalf who then asked the Rangers to guard the Shire from harm for many years. It was he who convinced Bilbo to give up the Ring to Frodo. It was he who "guided" Frodo along the correct way to destroy the Ring. It was he who brought Theoden out of his lassitude and "restore" Rohan. It was he who brought back the scattered remnants of Erkanbrand's legion to help Theoden at the Battle of Helm's Deep and allow the Riders of Rohan to help turn the tide at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. It was he who cast out Saruman and allowed Aragorn the chance to use the palantir to cause Sauron to strike at Gondor before he was fully prepared. It was he who instigated the final strategy of marching to the Black Gate with only 6000 men to allow the Ringbearer the chance to fulfill his mission. He is the Saviour of the West. I agree with everything else Mr. Wingate said, but I could not let Gandalf get slighted in this manner. Jeff Okamoto ..!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 17:06:25 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Yarbro's St. Germaine Series >> Can someone post or send me a list of the book in Chelsea Quinn >> Yarbo's St. Germaine Series? > >In order of publication: >HOTEL TRANSYLVANIA >THE PALACE >BLOOD GAMES >PATH OF THE ECLISPE >TEMPTING FATE >THE ST. GERMAINE CHRONICLES [novelettes] Please note that with the exception of St. Germaine Chronicles (the least-good of the bunch in my mind) everything is out of print currrently except through the SFBC. The good news is that Tor has bought the whole thing (except The Palace, whose rights haven't reverted yet, but will soon) and will be bringing it back out. Even better news is that Yarbro has sold six more novels in the series to Tor, all about Olivia in various time periods. The first is due out in (I believe) August in paperback, and they'll be out yearly after that. yay! Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 11 May 87 0904-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #212 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 11 May 87 0904-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #212 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 212 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Apr 87 01:28:01 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) Subject: Attendance at programming G. T. Samson writes: >Is it common that people who go to cons attend almost no >programming? Do people think it's "good" not to attend >programming? The first couple of conventions I went to (in the early 80's), about the only thing I went to was the programming. After that, the quantity of SCIENCE in the programming seemed to decrease rapidly, so I lost interest. I still go to a few panels but not many. I have since discovered other aspects of cons which are more interesting: (the masquerade, for example). Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 23:17:51 GMT From: seismo!sun!apple!dwb@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave W. Berry) Subject: Re: Attendance at programming Myself and a rather sizable number of my friends attend virtually every con within reach. Our motivation is almost solely to see and talk to neat people (>NOT< the authors and usually not panelists) We usually try to attend one panel, but rarely make more than that. Perhaps we're not the norm, but then again, does fandom have a norm? David W. Berry dwb@well.uucp dwb@Delphi dwb@apple.com (408)293-0752 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 20:01:32 GMT From: umix!umich!msudoc!beach@RUTGERS.EDU (Covert Beach) Subject: Re: conventions/guardians From: nico@OLDBORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (Nico) >Waivers of responsibility have been used by different groups >before. Notably at the Pennsic War, they are required of anyone >under 18 AND someone has to be responsible for you at the war. >Since this event is about 4000 people, it's a good example of lots >of rowdy, lively people, and it seems to work. *BUT* It's 20 miles >from town, I hate to throw a wet blanket on this example - but Boskone isn't the only group changing its rules this year. In addition to changes in how hucksters are handled and misc other new rules noone under 18 will be allowed on the Pensic site w/o their parent or legal guardian. Covert C Beach ..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach Michigan State University Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 13:53:55 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: Re: con program attendance spem@hscfvax.UUCP (G. T. Samson) writes: >Is it common that people who go to cons attend almost no >programming? (This was true for me for the first 3 Boskones I went >to... but I got curious this year.) Do people think it's "good" >not to attend programming? Well Gregory, Speaking as a convention runner as well as attendee. It's my impression that people don't attend convention programming that much, because so little thought and effort goes into it. You can see the committee..."we'll have a writers panel, and an artists panel, and...". If you've been to a couple of conventions you've seen all these things. Also, you've seen all the sf authors, ST actors and NASA reps you ever wanted to. The other problem is, if you have a panel that will draw 50 people and put it into a 500 person ballroom, you get a big empty room. Put it in a 75 person meeting room, and you have a good crowd. People are attracted by a good crowd, and the close-in feel adds to interraction. If you are running a con, and want your programming to succeed, here is the Rich Kolker programming advice information set: Hold a large number of programs in smaller rooms, rather than a limited number in large rooms (this is more work). Think had to come up with interesting topics. These need not be directly scince fiction related (some of the best programming I ever did was on nuclear power [ a debate], the future of education, and freedom of the press) Go outside the normal sf groups for speakers. Try local colleges, business and industry, special interest groups, government (not just NASA), non-sf writers, the school systems... No guarantees, but a little effort in programming will go a long way. At one point in the 10th Anniversary August Party, there were 13 different activites (3 panels, 2 films, 3 video, dealers, art-show, a history room, con suite...okay only 12) going on at one time. This was for a 600-700 person con, fan run, with a 12 person committee all holding full time jobs. Enough time on the soapbox. Get to work, I want to attend some programming! Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 16:27:54 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Attendance at programming >Myself and a rather sizable number of my friends attend virtually >every con within reach. Our motivation is almost solely to see and >talk to neat people (>NOT< the authors and usually not panelists) Speaking for me, I get to two or three cons a year (Baycon, Octocon when they have it, Westercon sometimes, and this year Worldcon) and I go to many of the panels, because I still find the information and the interplay between the panelists and the audience interesting. Much as I hate to point this out, if nobody goes to panels at cons (and nobody is such a definite term) then (1) why do they have panels in the first place, and (2) who are all those people at the panels? I certainly HOPE some folks still go to panels, since I'm going to be on some at the next couple of cons.... While I think there is a group of people that don't 'do' panels, there is also a group that does. Making generic assumptions is never safe. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 17:46:54 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low) Subject: Re: Boskone, yet once again >Anyway, about Boskone, I can't see why they don't make it >first-come first-served. It would be easier to manager, rather than >trying to figure out whether this guy had gone to 3 of the last 5, >or maybe only 2 of the last 5 but 3 of the last 6 and he was >pre-registered, and so on. A first come, first serve policy would be much simpler than the proposed policy for Boskone 25 *IF* reducing the size of the con was the only criterion. IN ADDITION, Nesfa also wants to keep out the hooligans that made so much trouble at Boskone 24. First come, first served does not handle this problem. The proposed eligibility rules are an attempt to address this problem. Danny Low ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1987 12:14 EDT From: Ben Yalow Subject: Boskone 25 - OFFICIAL The following letter is being sent to all members of Boskone 24, and is also being distributed via electronic means. Dear Boskone 24 Member: First of all, we want to thank everyone who responded to our special request for extra help at the convention. Many of you helped make Saturday and Sunday work very well this year. The convention received a lot of help from many people who'd never helped at a convention before. We appreciated the number of fans and pros who took the time to talk to us (and to the hotel) about their concerns over the vandalism and disruptions at the con. Despite this, the Sheraton-Boston has decided that it does not want to host Boskone 25. The hotel's primary complaint was that we were an intense, 24-hour-a-day convention. People were wandering all parts of the hotel at all hours of the night and into the early morning. The minor vandalism Friday was undoubtedly another reason, in large part because it made the hotel management edgy about little things they otherwise might have ignored. Some of the problems were not caused by convention members---we had many more people crashing the con than ever before. We also had more people than ever before who seemed to be interested not in SF but in having a wild party weekend. Boskone 25 will be very different from the last few Boskones. Since none of the major Boston hotels would accept Boskone for next year, Boskone will not be held in Boston, and will therefore be much smaller. There isn't a hotel complex in the region that can support a 4,000+ person SF convention, so we must institute a membership cap. We will probably be changing the date from the announced date of February 5-7, 1988. Most important, we will be refocusing the activities of Boskone. We hope to bring back ``Classic Boskone,'' to replace the ``New Boskone'' of recent years. New Policies for Next Year We are implementing a number of new policies next year to make Boskone smaller, better, and more of an event that the committee and the hotels will want to hold, and that the members will enjoy. We will have a membership limit. The exact number will depend upon the facilities used. We anticipate that the membership limit will be between 1,500 and 2,000 people. We will probably not be selling at-the-door memberships. Boskone had over 4100 attending members this year, and about 300 more who bought memberships but didn't come to the convention. The attendance limit for 1988 means that over half of the people who attended Boskone 24 will be unable to attend Boskone 25. All convention functions (including the Con Suite and Filksinging) will shut down by about 2 AM. Boskone wants parties to be gatherings where fans can get together to talk, rather than bashes for rowdy party animals to get smashed together. There will be a strict no-alcohol policy for open (public) parties. Boskone will do nothing to promote parties in any way (there will be no seeding, and we will not be listing parties in Helmuth). Furthermore, the Con Suite will not be a place to eat and party all night long. Instead, it will be what it was originally intended to be--a place for fans to get together and talk. It will be open until about 2 AM, and will serve limited refreshments (mostly soda and fruit juice). No one under 18 years of age will be admitted without a parent or guardian. If you are under 18, please see the paragraph on the back entitled ``Age Restrictions.'' The Hucksters' Room and Art Show will have to be smaller, but we will try to maintain the quality. The Hucksters' Room will shrink from 135 tables to about 60. The Art Show will shrink from 170 panels to about 100. We do not want people wearing hall costumes at Boskone. No awards will be given for hall costumes. No weapons may be brought into public areas at Boskone. We are defining staffs and chains as weapons, as well as swords, and toy ray guns. Only convention members will be permitted to reserve rooms in the convention hotel at the convention rate. All requests for hotel rooms will be funneled through the committee for membership verification. Badge-checking will be more thorough. Some of our problems this year were caused by walk-ins who didn't bother to join the con. We will have extra security in 1988 specifically aimed at checking badges. Program and activities at the convention will be focused on written science fiction, SF art, fandom, and science. Main program will probably shrink from 6 tracks to 3, with fewer rooms for discussion groups and no programming after midnight. We won't have a game room. There won't be a separate film program; a few films may be integrated into the main program. What Won't Change Boskone 25 will continue its strong tradition of a rich and varied SF-related program, emphasizing the classics of SF literature. Programming will continue to have fan items and science items. Boskone will continue to have one of the best Art Shows you'll see anywhere and a Hucksters' Room in which you can find almost any book you might want. We'll continue to provide a Con Suite where fans can mingle. We'll continue to do things efficiently and without hassling you. We'll continue other Boskone and fannish traditions: Dragonslair, Babysitting, the Meet-the-VIPs Party, the Regency Tea, and Filksinging. In short, we will continue to put on the best con we can. We feel that we are returning to what Boskone was like 7 or 8 years ago, rather than departing from some ``traditional'' Boskone. We hope that many fans who haven't attended in several years because they felt too crowded will come back next year. We also hope that people who attend Boskone only for a wild weekend of partying will stay home. Age Restrictions No one under 18 years of age will be admitted without a parent or guardian. We apologize to all those responsible teenagers whom this will inconvenience. However, this year we saw a number of teenagers who seemed to view Boskone not as an SF convention but as a frat party. This tends to upset hotels even more than adults behaving in this fashion. We also heard too many disturbing reports about teenagers saying that Boskone was a ``great party con.'' We don't want to exclude teenagers who are really interested in SF, so there are a few exceptions to this rule. Teenagers who have worked at Boskone or another major convention, who belong to an established SF club (such as NESFA, MITSFS, the Lunarians, etc.) which has other members attending Boskone, or who are known to us are definitely welcome. (If you are interested in SF, join one of the clubs in your area. If you don't know how to find one, contact us.) What Next Boskone 25 will not have a general mailing. For most of you receiving this letter, it will be the last mailing you'll get from us. Boskone 25 will be publicized only in fannish sources (e.g., Instant Message, Locus, SFC, File 770). Once a site for the next Boskone has been selected, Boskone flyers will be sent to a small number of specific groups, such as NESFA members and Boskone Life members. Beginning March 1, 1987, NESFA stopped accepting memberships for Boskone 25. We must totally restructure the budget for next year, and this takes time. If you send in money for a membership before we announce our new rate structure, your check will be returned. If you already purchased a membership for Boskone 25 at Boskone 24, and you don't like the sound of the changes we are proposing, we will refund your membership fee on request between now and September 1, 1987. In a break with past practice, memberships for the 1988 Boskone are not transferable. Once we have reached our membership limit, we will return checks sent in. We do not expect to be selling any memberships at the door next year, but if we do, the at-the-door rate will be substantially higher than this year's rate. If you have any suggestions or comments, please write to us. We need your help to successfully restructure Boskone, and we are very interested in the opinions of science fiction fans and pros, especially those who have been attending Boskone regularly over the years. Jim Mann & Laurie Mann Boskone 25 Co-chairs PS: A camera was lost at the last Boskone. If you can describe the camera, we will mail it to you. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 11 May 87 0916-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #213 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 11 May 87 0916-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #213 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 213 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (3 msgs) & Lee & Lewis (3 msgs) & MacAvoy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 May 87 07:46:25 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Brust From: nj > In all the discussions of SKZB I have yet to see a single > posting about _To Reign in Hell_. Did no one else read this book, > or if someone did, do they not share my opinion that it was a very > good book? I don't know about you, but I enjoyed it a lot more > than I did _Brokedown Palace_. There was much spirited discussion of it when it was first released in paperback. Personally, I didn't care much for the book, but I seem to be very much in the minority. I liked the Vlad Taltos books, as well as BROKEDOWN PALACE (which Steven himself didn't think I'd like, since I didn't like TO REIGN IN HELL, but I proved him wrong). I have a copy of his latest, THE SUN, THE MOON, AND THE STARS, but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 00:57:10 GMT From: usenet@jade.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator) Subject: Re: Brust SQCR6W@IRISHMVS writes: > In all the discussions of SKZB I have yet to see a single posting >about _To Reign in Hell_. Did no one else read this book, or if >someone did, do they not share my opinion that it was a very good >book? I don't know about you, but I enjoyed it a lot more than I >did _Brokedown Palace_. I found the ideas in _To Reign in Hell_ interesting, but for me, at least, the experimental writing style didn't work. Throughout the book, there are long stretches of dialog with no attributives (Satan said, etc.). Even if you were overhearing a conversation between two unknown persons, in real life you'd at least be able to distinguish their voices! I found myself skipping over such sections because they were almost meaningless without a context to put them into, and because it was too much trouble to count back and find out whether the same person who said "a" also said "b". I also had a lot of trouble visualizing characters who were identified only by name, and often not even that....and if I can't imagine how someone looks, sounds, moves, etc., it's hard for me to keep track of him/her. Please understand that I'm attacking Brust's right to write in this or any other experimental style; I'm only saying that for this one was a detriment to the story. Mary K. Kuhner c60a-4er@tart27.berkeley.edu.BERKELEY.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 11:42:30 GMT From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura) Subject: Re: Brust Regarding Reign in Hell v. Brokedown Palace, I've read all 5 of SKZB's books and like them all. In fact, the one I like best is usually the one I've read last. I'm looking forward to seeing if he ties Brokedown Palace closer to Vlad. Also, I'm wondering if he'll tie Reign in Hell in with these books. It's clear that raw chaos is known to the Draegeran from Jhereg. Ah, and then there's the still mysterious Devera. How powerful *is* she? Jim Omura 2A King George's Drive, Toronto, (416) 652-3880 ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 09:05 PDT From: lance@LOGICON.ARPA Subject: Tanith Lee title request In response to someone's request for info on Books by Tanith Lee. Tanith Lee is from England, I am from the US, so my list of her works is probably not complete. Here are her books that I know of: (Chronologically listed, Alpha within year). Year Title Publishings I know of 1971 The Dragon Hoard MagicQuest 1975 * The Birthgrave DAW 1976 * Don't Bite the Sun DAW 1976 The Storm Lord DAW/SFBC(2) 1977 Drinking Sapphire Wine DAW 1977 East of Midnight St Martins Press/MagicQuest 1977 Valkhavaar DAW 1978 * Night's Master DAW/Highland Press 1978 Quest for the White Witch DAW 1978 Vazkar, Son of Vazkar DAW ("Shadowfire" in England) 1979 Companions on the Road Bantam (SSC) 1979 * Death's Master DAW/Highland Press 1979 Electric Forest DAW/SFBC 1980 Sabella, or the Bloodstone DAW/SFBC(2) 1980 * Kill the Dead DAW/SFBC(2) 1980 Day by Night DAW 1981 Lycanthia DAW 1981 Delusion's Master DAW 1981 Silver Metal Lover DAW/SFBC 1981 Unsilight Night NESFA Press (SSC) 1982 * Cyrion DAW (storyline SSC) 1983 Anackire DAW/SFBC(2) 1983 Red as Blood DAW/SFBC (theme SSC - Grim tales) 1983 Sung in Shadow DAW 1984 Tamastara, or the Indian Nights DAW (theme SSC) 1984 The Beautiful Biting Machine Cheap Street 1985 The Gorgon &other Beastly Tales DAW/SFBC (theme SSC) 1985 Days of Grass DAW 1986 * Dark Castle, White Horse DAW (2 stories 1978,1982) 1986 Delirium's Mistress DAW 1986 Dreams of Dark and Light Arkham House (SSC) 1987 Night's Sorceries DAW Apr 1, 1988 SFL Digest's Revenge Network House, Inc. * - A rating of try these first (you have to read them all, they're Tanith Lee stories). CONNECTIONS: "The Birthgrave":1, "Vazkar, Son of Vazkar":2, and "Quest for the White Witch":3 The White Witch trilogy - "The Birthgrave" is an excellent herioc fantasy story about someone who wakes up with gaps in her memory. The herione can take care of herself, and as time progresses and she discovers more about herself, she becomes even more dangerous to oppose. "Night's Master":1, "Death's Master":2, "Delusion's Master":3 "Delirium's Mistress":4, "Night's Sorceries":5 All in her Flat earth series. The first two books show her versatility, book 1 - depending on your view, either 1, 3, or 9 stories all intertwined with many characters, book 2 - 1 long story with a cast of few (How often do you see such intended different styles within the same series?) All the books in this arabian night'ish/fairy tale'ish series are good. "Drinking Sapphire Wine":1, "Don't Bite the Sun":2 The Four Bee novels are distopian stories about someone who is jaded with all the fun to be had, dying for excitement, or parties to attend, and wants to live another way of life. (fun future books) "The Storm Lord":1, "Anackire":2 Combined as "The Wars of Vis" by SFBC "Sabella, or the Bloodstone":1, "Kill the Dead":2 Combined as "Sometimes after Sunset" by SFBC, although the books are not directly related. "Sabella" is a future vampire novel on new Red Mars. "Kill the Dead" is about a traveling bard ready to kill any ghosts that may be bothering you. Other Comments: "Red as Blood, or Tales from the Sisters Grimmer", is a collection of her retellings of fairy tales. "Silver Metal Lover" has been adopted in comic format by Trina Robbins, published by Harmony Books (1985). "Lycanthia, or the children of the wolves" is another look at the story of werewolves. "Cyrion" is the story about someone seeking Cyrion's aide, from his sword arm and from his brain to figure out what is going on. The someone asks around and listens to tales about Cyrion until he meets Cyrion, who then helps out. So it's a many stories within a story story. Very good herioc fantasy. Cyrion is a combination of an almost invincible swordsman and super sleuth. I hope she writes more tales about Cyrion. "The Dragon Hoard", and "East of Midnight" are more childrens type stories. "The Dragon Hoard" rates as one of the Funniest stories I've ever read. "Unsilight Night" (1000), "The Beautiful Biting Machine" (127), "Night's Master" (Highland Press - 500), and "Death's Master" (Highland Press - 500) are all limited editions with a print run as listed. (So they may be a little hard to obtain.) A long net note (although it would be longer if I reviewed every book), but very short compared to what the subject matter is. lance@Logicon.Arpa Lance Browne, San Diego, CA ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 8 May 1987 08:21:56-PDT From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: C.S.Lewis I also heartily recommend the Perelandra trilogy for those who have enjoyed the Narnie Chronicles. Although his Christian philosophies pervade all of his writing, in both symbolic and subtle ways, Lewis made advances into science fiction with Perelandra. I may be coming off the wall here, but I still suggest the notion that, in this trilogy, Lewis broke the barrier between fantasy and science fiction. The idea of space travel was quite revolutionary for the time that Lewis was writing. On the subject of comparisons with Tolkien, I should point out that Lewis, Tolkien, and Charles Williams (another wonderful author) were the main members of a literary club at Harvard in England. They called themselves The Inklings, and read their evolving work to one another. Sometimes Christopher Tolkien was in attendance. I have a book called "The Inklings," written by (I believe) Christopher Tolkien, that describes the club as well as the personal lives of the three authors. I found The Inklings to be very interesting reading -- perhaps the only GOOD writing from Christopher Tolkien. If I could choose any time/place to go back in time and visit, I would choose to attend a reading session of The Inklings. A challenging trivia task: try to find the similarities among the works of the three authors. Mary ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 17:26:34 GMT From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea) Subject: Re: C.S.Lewis marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes: >I also heartily recommend the Perelandra trilogy for those who have >enjoyed the Narnie Chronicles. Although his Christian philosophies >pervade all of his writing, in both symbolic and subtle ways, Lewis >made advances into science fiction with Perelandra. As a Christian, I can't really judge if the Christian background of the books would offend others, but I do feel that parts of Perelandra are really beautifully written. Lewis wrote somewhere that the book was a result of the image of a golden ocean with floating islands having popped into his head, and that the Christian theme of a new temptation and fall only came in much later. I don't really like the first book all that much, though the business of "translating" Weston's speech to the Eldil can be fun. The third book is the strangest, and though good in parts, I feel it doesn't really work. It is also very traditionalist about marriage and the relation between the sexes, in ways that may offend people nowadays. >On the subject of comparisons with Tolkien, I should point out that >Lewis, Tolkien, and Charles Williams (another wonderful author) >were the main members of a literary club at Harvard in England. >They That's Oxford, of course, where both Lewis and Tolkien taught, and where Charles Williams went during the war. >called themselves The Inklings, and read their evolving work to one >another. Sometimes Christopher Tolkien was in attendance. I have >a book called "The Inklings," written by (I believe) Christopher >Tolkien, that describes the club as well as the personal lives of >the three authors. The author is actually Humphrey Carpenter, who has also written a biography of Tolkien. Because of this, the book focuses mainly on Lewis and Williams. As you say, it's really quite good. One of the surprises was the importance of Tolkien (the less explicitly Christian author) in Lewis's conversion. >A challenging trivia task: try to find the similarities among the >works of the three authors. Besides the fact that they shared a rather unique brand of orthodox Christianity? Not very easy to do. Lewis was the unifying factor in the group. Tolkien himself did not seem to like Williams all that much. They were all deeply involved with literature, especially medieval literature. But I see little similarity among their books, though Williams is clearly the main influence on "That Hideous Strength". Tolkien, for example, deeply disliked the Narnian books. Fernando Q. Gouvea Department of Mathematics 1 Oxford Street Cambridge, MA 02138 gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA gouvea@harvma1.BITNET ...!harvard!huma1!gouvea ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 11:51:27 GMT From: pete@tcom.stc.co.uk (Peter Kendell) Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis, Narnia and Christian allegory From: obrien@aero2.aero.org >I feel I must warn those who have not yet read the Narnian >Chronicles. Yes, they are some of the best fantasy ever written, >and yes, I recommend them (almost) unreservedly - except for the >last volume. "The Last Battle" is one of the most heavy-handed >pieces of Christian allegory it's ever been my misfortune to read. >Unless you are a born-again Christian (and maybe even if you are) >this is one to avoid. It almost spoiled the whole series for me. >I still reread the other volumes with pleasure, but the magic >breaks down badly in this little number. True, the other volumes >are also allegorical, but they stand on their own. This one >doesn't. I feel I must stand up in defence of _The Last Battle_. There's a right age at which to read the Chronicles. Too early (say < 9 yrs) and you'll miss the richness of Lewis's writing. Too late (say > 15 yrs) and you'll get annoyed at the E. Nesbit style and pick holes in the Narnian universe. (For example - If there were Talking Beasts in our world, would anyone eat the flesh of even a non-sapient animal? Yet Narnians eat non-talking venison and pork sausages. And what was *Father Christmas* of all people doing in TLTWATW? The animated film was execrable in many ways but it made the obviously correct change here by having Aslan give the Gifts to the children himself.) I was lucky enough to read _The Last Battle_ at the age of 12. It had an amazing impact on me (Literally - I walked about in a daze for a day or two. I didn't even mind my father's driving!). It seemed, and still seems, absolutely *right* and the only way that Lewis could wrap up the series before "people got tired of it". You certainly don't have to be any sort of Christian to enjoy the books. I'd be interested to hear of anyone's idea of how Lewis might have developed Narnia if he had been as obsessive about it as Tolkien was about Middle Earth. Peter Kendell pete@tcom.stc.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 08:19:40 GMT From: lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot (Lindsay F. Marshall) Subject: Re: The Grey Horse Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM writes: >I had enjoyed Twisting the Rope because I'm involved in folk music >(Calendar editor for the Caltech Folk Music Society's newlsetter), >and I have to disagree here. I enjoyed Tea with the Black dragon very much but thought that Twisting the Rope was DREADFUL!!! The worst thing of all was the cover which purports to depict the instruments played by the members of the band. It showed :- a fiddle - that's OK a modern metal flute - Not very likely!! an anglo-concertina - the character plays a melodeon. a triple harp - again unlikely given the Irishness of the band and..... a set of Highland pipes - the character plays uillean pipes. Apart from this the story was utterly boring and had 0 credibility. I found the folk music stuff pretentious and wrong headed (I'm a folkie too). Lindsay F. Marshall JANET: lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot ARPA: lindsay%cheviot.newcastle@ucl-cs UUCP: !ukc!cheviot!lindsay PHONE: +44-91-2329233 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 11 May 87 0933-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #214 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 11 May 87 0933-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #214 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 214 Today's Topics: Films - Bakshi (3 msgs) & Plan 9 (2 msgs) & Quatermass & Stalker & Good/Bad Movies (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 May 87 17:21:31 GMT From: 6100192@pucc.princeton.edu Subject: Re: Bakshi's "Lord of the Rings" dand@tekigm2.TEK.COM (Dan Duval) writes: >The "other half" of Lord of the Rings was made and released, about >4-5 years ago. It is called "Return of the King" and picks up right >where LotR leaves off (hobbits at Mt Doom and most ev'ryone else >still under siege.) I may be mistaken, but if this is the same "Return of the King" that I remember, then Dan is talking about the version that was produced by Rankin/Bass, the same people who brought us the animated version of "The Hobbit". If this is the film you're thinking of, IT'S HORRIBLE. Not only do the elves look like diminutive Vulcans and the Nazgul like skeletons from "Sinbad", but the viewer is subjected to at least four songs, which are trite and inappropriate, to say the least. Numbered among these tunes is the never-to-be-forgotten and grotesquely comical Marching Song of the Orcs: "Where there's a whip, there's a way,/we don't wanna go to war today..." Even those who hate Bakshi's work have to agree that even he did a better Tolkien adaptation than the jokers at Rankin/Bass Now, if someone had a copy of the second half of *Bakshi's* LoTR, I'd be very, very interested.... Princeton University BITNET: 6100192@PUCC UUCP:{IHNP4:ALLEGRA}!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6100192 ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 18:35:30 GMT From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu (Capt. Gym Quirk) Subject: Re: Bakshi's "Lord of the Rings" dand@tekigm2.TEK.COM (Dan Duval) writes: >The "other half" of Lord of the Rings was made and released, about >4-5 years ago. It is called "Return of the King" and picks up right >where LotR leaves off (hobbits at Mt Doom and most ev'ryone else >still under siege.) I will assume that you are referring to the Rankin-Bass fiasco. The animation is nowhere near Bakshi's quality, the story has been slightly modified, and it ignores the showdown at Isengard. On the whole, I diddn't like it one bit. It was FAR too campy. T. Kogoma cs2633ba@izar.UUCP cs2633ba@izar.UNM.EDU {gatech:unm-la:ucbvax:hc!hi}!unmvax!izar!cs2633ba ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 12:25:19 GMT From: hplabs!well!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Bakshi: "Wizards" ripoffs, and "Lord of the Rings" Subject: success stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes: >Despite the unethical copying involved in Wizards, I really wish >someone would fund Bakshi to *FINISH* the second half of The Lord >of the Rings. They can't. In an obscure, convoluted, and insane deal, Bakshi only was able to get the rights to the first two books in the trilogy. Rankin-Bass owns the rights to The Hobbit and The Return of the King, and has made films of both of them. The Return of the King was a *MUSICAL*, and ranks right up there as one of the most vomitous pieces of trash I've ever seen. I mean, orcs singing "Where There's a Whip, There's a Way" ?!?! (And no, I'm *NOT* kidding!) Mike Farren uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 87 09:00 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Plan 9 PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE sorry, I don't know the perpetrator (tune: Love Potion Number 9) There is this movie that you have to see A stranger movie there will never be And the aliens are here to destroy the human race The name of the film is . . . Plan 9 from Outer Space 'Cause the stand-in for Lugosi is just the wrong size But that's not the only way that this movie dies Technologically they never worked out all of the kinks To put it in some other words . . . It really stinks! To show the good guys here are peaceful men Our heros slug the bad guys in the end And they send them flying off in their burining paper plates All of which is why I love Plan 9 from Outer Space. I've GOT to see this movie! Is it out on video? Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 22:31:00 GMT From: jen@athena.mit.edu (Jennifer Hawthorne) Subject: Re: Plan 9 I heard this filk sung at the Boskone 24 Filk Concert by Bill Roper; the correct (?) title is "The People's Choice Award". It had an additional verse, sung as the second one: These guys have got a ray to raise the dead-- They should have used it on the script instead. But then the way it's acted is a terrible disgrace. There's nothing that can rescue--Plan 9 From Outer Space. Roper didn't write this; he accredits it to a person he knows only as "Chaz 63" (or something like that). He made a plea at the concert for information about the true identity of this person, as he'd like to recored the song and can't do it without the author's permission (so if Chaz 63 is out there in netland, get in touch with Bill Roper.) As for the movie itself...it's great for a laugh, especially if you see it with a group of friends. Not good for much else, though (except as a negative example--"This, class, is how NOT to do a Science Fiction movie.") I got to see it at the LSC SF Marathon two years ago; the part I remember best is the way that it goes from broad daylight to night during a five minute car ride--repeatedly. They used this stock shot so often the audience started chanting "Night! Day! Night! Day!" every time the car showed up... I don't think you'll be able to get this on tape from the common video market; you might be able to get a many-generation copy from some die-hard fan of bad cult classics somewhere out in fandom if you look long enough. Good luck. Jen Hawthorne ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 02:05:30 GMT From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: QUATERMASS, etc. >>> and I wasn't aware of the fourth Quatermass film. I'll look for >>> THE QUATERMASS CONCLUSION this weekend. >>Did you find it? What did you think? It is very different from >>the others in the series and rather downbeat, but not too bad. > > Couldn't find it, but I'll have my eye out for it from now > on. When I do find it, I'll let you know what I think. I have seen it in at least two video stores out here, one not very big. > I've never seen the 2nd Quatermass film (QUATERMASS AND THE PIT?), > either. That's FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH. TV play and British film title American film title THE QUATERMASS EXPERIMENT THE CREEPING UNKNOWN QUATERMASS II ENEMY FROM SPACE QUATERMASS AND THE PIT FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH THE QUATERMASS CONCLUSION In each but the last case there was first a tv play done live, then a remake on film done by Hammer Films. Actually the film title for the first one was THE QUATERMASS X-PERIMENT to play up the fact that it had been given the adults-only X-certificate. QUATERMASS CONCLUSION was done much later for ITV and the film is really just an edited version of the TV-play. > Do you know if [QUATERMASS II's] available on tape? Brian Donlevy was an alcholic when he made the two Quatermass films he did. Nigel Kneale hated the film versions with Donlevy and claims to have bought up all copies of ENEMY FROM SPACE. The film still had very good word of mouth. I saw ENEMY FROM SPACE as a kid, but it had disappeared since, somewhat bearing out Kneale's claim. Then a couple of years ago the Movie Channel was running a science fiction movie day with a bunch of familiar science fiction films and QUATERMASS II. I don't get the Movie Channel but had a couple of friends who did tape it for me. (Taking no chances that one might muff it.) It was the ENEMY FROM SPACE I remembered, but with the original title. Apparently someone found a copy somewhere. I would say it is tied with QUATERMASS CONCLUSION for second place in the series. So I have all four films on tape. Kneale has the BBC's record (a filmed TV-screen) for the TV plays QUATERMASS II and QUATERMASS AND THE PIT. The technique hadn't been invented in time for the first TV play. At Seacon he showed QUATERMASS AND THE PIT in six 40-minute segments. Very impressive. Particularly since it is the story of FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH done live on a tv stage. The ending is much better explained than in the film because Kneale had more time. For a while the first three plays were available from Penguin books (orange cover), then they went out of print. When ITV did QUATERMASS CONCLUSION, the three plays were reprinted (blue cover) as well as a novelization, by Kneale, of the fourth story (called simply QUATERMASS in novel form). >>It is hard to imagine a Soviet science fiction film being as good >>as this one is described as being. Most have not been anything >>really special. But there are people who rave about this one and >>I really am curious. > > Perhaps some people's love of the book influences their judgement > of the film. Only Russian SF (actually, fantasy) film I've seen > and liked was THE DAY THE EARTH FROZE, a rather quaint filming of > the Kalevala. "Good" may be too strong a word, but it had a naive > charm. > Do let me know what you think of SOLARIS, if you ever find > it. THE SWORD AND THE DRAGON is kind of fun too. I believe that DAY THE EARTH FROZE was a Finnish co-production. Yeah, it is enjoyable. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 01:14:01 GMT From: oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev) Subject: Re: Solaris & Stalker EMAILDEV%UKACRL.BITNET@BERKELEY.EDU writes: >The name of the film is Stalker. The name of the book is "Picknick on the Roadside" (or something close to it) by A. and B. Strugatski. I am not sure about the traslation quality, I have just recently picked up the book second-hand and it is on my read queue. (A side comment: in general, the translation quality from Russian to English is rather poor. It gets even worse when the translation is "second-hand", from French or German) There are other books by brothers Strugatski published in English, possibly nolonger in print (I have been picking them up at excellent discounts). mild spoiler The Zone of the movie, the Stalkers and the events in and outside of the Zone take on a more mystical quality than in the book. The movie concentrates on the human issues and personal motivations. The book, on the other hand, is more concerned with the scientific and philosophical implications of the "unknowable," events incomprehensible to the human mind. The title reflects the idea put forth by the book, that the Zone is a site where some mysterious aliens had landed for a night, did whatever they did and then left. A picknick on the roadside. The Zone and all its artifacts, then, are much like the empty cans, candy wrappers and used up flashlight batteries dumped on the anthill... Oleg Kiselev oleg@quad1.quad.com {...!psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 18:27:45 GMT From: Susser.pasa@xerox.com Subject: Good SF Movies I am truly surprised that with all this discussion about SF movies, no one has mentioned my all-time SF favorite: FORBIDDEN PLANET. I have seen this movie five or six times, and it's still captivating (of course, Ann Francis counts for a lot of that). I'll restrain myself from excessive drooling here, but I really think this is a fantastic movie. Regarding BRAZIL: Yes, this is a wonderful film. It's one of the few films that has left me with a significant lingering "WOW" feeling. But I would hesitate to call it science fiction. There was really nothing in the film that relied on advanced technology or hitherto undiscovered phenomena. And I don't think I'm being picky here, so no flames please. be seeing you Josh ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 16:41:27 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Timothy Thomas) Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies Nobody has mentioned two of my favorite SF-movies. I think that (now dont laugh) Planet_of_the_Apes (stop laughing!) was a really good *movie* (not the follow-up movies, or the tv series). The whole thing was a neat (but predictable) idea about accidentally coming back to Earth. Another good movie was Logans_Run (again, a good movie but not such a great tv series). Timothy D. Thomas SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science BITNET: tim@sunybcs.BITNET CSnet: tim@buffalo.CSNET UUCP: {ames,allegra,decvax,rocksanne,rocksvax,watmath}!sunybcs!tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 87 10:56:19 EDT From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Re: sf movies Just to throw in my $0.02, here's the movies I have (dis)liked: GOOD SF MOVIES Alien & ALiens Terminator 2001 & 2010 The Thing (both of them) The Black Hole Dark Star (a satire on the space program) Saturn 3 Logan's Run Green Slime (i liked this one) Fahrenheit 451 (brilliant!) Spaceship (it was not made to be a serious movie) Rocky Horror Picture Show ('nuff said) Little Shop Of Horrors Videodrome (very, very weird) Invasion of the Body Snatchers (both of them) Day the Earth Stood Still Silent Running Forbidden Planet Flash Gordon (so bad it was funny) Star Wars (all three) Star Trek I-IV The Enemy Within Hangar 18 The Final Countdown The Philadelphia Experiment Wavelength V (I mean only the mini-series) BAD SF MOVIES Plan 9 From Outer Space Eraserhead Zardoz Brazil (another failed attempt at a deep movie) Clone of Frankenstein Bride of Frankenstein Attack of the Killer Tomatoes (I hate tomatoes) The Man With Two Heads Robot Monster ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 87 00:38:01 GMT From: hollombe@ttidca.tti.com (The Polymath) Subject: Re: On a lighter note... Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes: > Aw, *everybody* has a big list of their favorite SF movies. Never >mind that. How about the WORST SF movies of all time! The dogs on >the Late Late Show that curdle milk, make the cat's fur fall out, >and drive your long-suffering mate to drink. Some personal >"favorites:" > > Plan 9 From Outer Space Can never be equalled. > Battle Beyond The Stars Came mighty close though, with Richard > Thomas. > Galaxy of Terror When the best part of the movie is > seeing Erin Moran's head blow up, > you KNOW you're in trouble. > Galaxina Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. > Zardoz DOUBLE Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Actually, I liked Zardoz. Battle Beyond the Stars was a great tongue-in-cheek remake of The Magnificent Seven which itself was a remake of The Seven Samurai. I pretty much agree with your others, though. The all time worst I've seen to date is The Alpha Incident. This one could give Plan 9 serious competition. It doesn't even have the saving grace of being so bad it's laughable. The blurb on the tape jacket makes it sound like an Andromeda Strain rip-off, but don't you believe it. This turkey would deserve a failing grade in a freshman film class. Jerry Hollombe hollombe@TTI.COM Citicorp(+)TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 450-9111, x2483 Santa Monica, CA 90405 {csun|philabs|psivax|trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 11 May 87 0950-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #215 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 11 May 87 0950-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #215 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 215 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 May 87 22:47:28 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* SPOILERS *) barry@borealis.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes: > Overall, though, it's best not to assume Heinlein is > actively in favor of every idea he presents in his novels with > *apparent* approval. What has always stood out for me in his > books, more than the semi-libertarian politics, more than the > advocacy of relaxed sexual mores, more than the idolization of > family, and of good manners, is that this is a man who likes to > *play* with ideas, a man who is perfectly happy to play Devil's > advocate with a straight face, a man who enjoys pricking his > readers with novel and unsettling notions. > ... > But some people don't let that stop them. They'll cut and squeeze > and interpret and misinterpret and distort, until they've > force-fit Heinlein into a pigeonhole they can deal with, and then > attack this straw man, now neatly packeaged as a Libertarian, or > anarchist, or fascist, or militarist, or sexist, etc. The problem is that they persist, even when it is pointed out to them that they've cut off all the corners and pounded the square Heinleinian peg into their round straw-lined hole. And usually from some rather limited sample of his *fiction* of all things. Are we to take it from "Job" that he is a fundamentalist? After all, he has Judgement day happen just like Revalations says it will. Are we to take it from "Misfit" that he's an FDR newdealer? After all, his "first mature civilization" runs public works projects much like those of the depression years. He's a militarist (or a Nazi) in "Starship Troopers", a hippie sex pervert in "Stranger in a Strange Land", and next somebody'll be saying he's an anti-semite because of something out-of-context ripped from "...If This Goes On". It seems to me that Heinlein advocates things from all over the spectrum as fictional, conceptual toys. The only consistent theme I've seen is that his protagonists are more competent than usual, and this is employed in accusing him of "elitism" on the one hand and poor characterization on the other. Sigh. If that's all you get from noting that all Heinlein's characters are above average, next you'll be saying that Garrison Keilor is an elitist, because everybody in Lake Wobegon is exceptional. ("where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average.") Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 20:28:55 GMT From: rpiacm!snuggle@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: > I applaud you, Chris. This self-negation could possibly be part >of the message of the book. I kind of wonder though -- Heinlein is >usually very straightforward when it comes to "The Moral of the >Story." Well, some of the other counter-arguments that came after mine were pretty good. It has been my impression for quite sometime that it is basically impossible to predict what Heinlein's politics are from his writings. He is quite capable of assuming many different positions in his stories and writing them so convincingly that it is difficult to tell if he actually believes what he is writing. This is probably his greatest strength as a writer. I wouldn't be surprised if he does this just so people will begin to think for himself instead of looking to him to show him "the one true way". However, whether Heinlein purposely destroyed himself as an authority figure in MiaHM is debatable. I just find it ammusing that the person who thought that Heinlein was advocating anarchy actually supplied a very good argument to show that we should never trust authority, a perfectly anarchistic point of view. Chris Andersen UUCP: ..!seismo!rpics!rpiacm!snuggle BITNET: rpiacm!snuggle%csv.rpi.edu@rpitsmts.bitnet INTERNET: rpiacm!snuggle@csv.rpi.edu ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 19:11:09 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Prof. De la Paz contradictions dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: > As I remember, the Prof claims to be a Rational Anarchist or > something of the sort. He definitely does not claim to be a > libertarian, communist, elitist or whatever. He had a > conversation with Wyoming (I forget last name) about that very > subject. Knott. (After all, Wye Knott?) I agree with Dan's point, except that the term "rational anarchist" was a descriptive term rather than the name of an organization or whatnot, and thus should not be (and was not, in the book) capitalized. In particular, the Prof makes the point that the group has no more ethical rights than its members, and he therefore takes responsibility for his own actions rather than blaming "society" or "the law" or whatnot. He also refused to be pinned down as to general principles of law... when asked, he always particularized his answer by asking for specific examples. As far as I can see, there is no contradiction between the positions of "anarchism" and "elitism" as outlined by Prof's various monologues and N-ologues in "Mistress". But getting back to the conversation between the Prof and Wyoming, there is further internal evidence that "rational anarchist" was not the name of an organized group, but was a descriptive term made up by the Prof on the spot. Wyoming never heard of that group, and she was a professional activist, and attempted to keep track of political groups, and expressed mild surprise that she hadn't heard the term Prof used to describe himself before. To repeat the point. The Prof never outlined in detail his political philosophy, beyond tagging himself a rational anarchist. What he meant by this is unclear, but it is fairly clear that this is not incompatible with the Profs subsequent actions, and it is further the height of lunacy to use any supposed contradictions between the Prof's words and his actions as evidence that Heinlein is confused or self-contradictory. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 22:12:59 GMT From: mimsy!chris@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes: >... the computer predictions that loss of bio-material due to grain >exports will ruin the lunar ecology to the point where mass >starvation will occur in 7 years - cannibalism in another 2. De la >Paz feels himself morally obliged to con the loonies for their own >good. An interesting wiew, considering that he (or at least Manny) >thinks that the imposition of laws forbidding people to do this or >that - FOR THEIR OWN GOOD - is totally immoral. > >Question: Is this contradiction real or imagined? I think you have some points of view mixed up. The relevant quotes are on p. 63 in my copy: de la Paz: For example, under what circumstances may the State justly place its welfare above that of a citizen? Manuel: Prof, as I see, are *no* circumstances under which State is justified in placing its welfare ahead of mine. (a bit later) de la Paz: Mannie, the `State' is Luna. Even though not sovereign yet and we hold citizenships elsewhere. But *I* am part of the Lunar State and so is your family. Would you die for your family? Manuel: Two questions not related. de la Paz: Oh, but they are. That's the point. Manuel: Nyet. I know my family, opted long ago. de la Paz: Dear Lady, I must come to Manuel's defense. He has a correct evaluation even though he may not be able to state it. May I ask this? Under what circumstances is it moral for a group to do that which it is not moral for a member of that group to do alone? Wyoming: Uh ... that's a trick question. de la Paz: It is the *key* question, dear Wyoming. A radical question that strikes to the root of the whole dilemma of gonvernment. Anyone who answers honestly and abides by *all* consequences knows where he stands---and what he will die for. [end of quotes] Professor de la Paz believes that there are no such circumstances. For decisions to be right, he must make them, or happen to agree with them after they are made. If he believes a decision sufficiently wrong, he simply does not go along with it---and, if it comes to it, he is willing die for that. [Under his rational anarchist system, you may have a lot of dead people, but they will have known where they stood. :-)] Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7690) Domain: chris@mimsy.umd.edu Path: seismo!mimsy!chris ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 01:35:39 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Women & "Glory Road" >>Remember GLORY ROAD? Remember how all through the book 'our hero' >>is getting his fantasy of being a real hero created, played to, >>>bolstered up, by Star and Rufo? Remember how she calls him 'my >>lord' and lets him dominate her in all sorts of things? Remember >>his rude awakening in the last part of the book? [Synopsis of >>Oscar & Star's rel'nship is a role-reversal of "beautiful naive >>young women who marry men considerably 'above' them"] > > Oh, come on! Here we have the (supposedly) wisest person "in the > twenty universes", and the best way she can come up with to handle > the situation is to fall back on the old "manipulate the man using > sex" routine?!!! I'd hardly call that an enlightened or liberated > view of women. In fact, the book nauseated me. "Manipulate the man using sex" routine? 's I recall, did she not also do some hypnosis and such, for various reasons? Language, to calm him, probably confidence,.... Let's see, what else could she have done, given that this is a form of HIS (Oscar's) idea of the classic hero/dragonslayer, and what he does and gets in reward. He was manipulated his entire life (The fencing classes, army, etc.), and all for this one purpose. He was only one of many thousands of similar cases, just in case he failed (as the rest did, in one way or another- they wouldn't have gone, they died beforehand, etc.- not to say the QUEST was tried before- they only got one shot at it, and thus needed the BEST....) All this was done by Star. If sex happened to fit the pattern, it fit and was a tool. Perhaps she was bored. Perhaps it would give him more incentive. D'you recall the attitude towards sex that the galactic civilization had? Sex and living together was commonly asked at causual parties, etc. Marriage was an anachronism. Finally, do you recall the description of earth given by Star, as defined by the galactics? "Violent, primitive, socially retarded in attitudes towards others.." (not a quote, but the essence.) Eric ps. Sex is never just an old cliche' as a tool, weapon, etc... ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 05:30:05 GMT From: johna@pwcs.stpaul.gov (John A. Erickson) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: >> ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) >Or how about the fact that *even* *if* the book were conceptually >incoherent as a paen to anarchism (and note that it is actually >neither incoherent, nor a paen to anarchism) it would still be a >ripping good story? > >Face it, that essay is a crock of gibberish. Hear, hear. This discussion's signal-to-noise ration has been incredibly out of whack. As a matter of fact, most of the Heinlein discussions I've seen on the net have ignored one KEY fact about RAH: he tells a yarn like nobody else. (OK, at least like very few people currently writing.) It seems to me that one thing that sets him above many other writers is the fact that he can inspire such heated debate, while, if one looks at the most superficial levels, he can sustain a good yarn. (I know I'm being redundant. It's OK--I'm through) I'm not ashamed to say that I enjoy _Starship Troopers_, without even really looking at some of the politics involved in it; though, if pressed, I'd have to admit there are a few good ideas in it. It's 12:30---what kind of posting did you expect? John A. Erickson City of St. Paul johna@pwcs.StPaul.GOV ...!ihnp4!quest!pwcs!johna ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 13:45:36 GMT From: rochester!cci632!mark@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Stevans) Subject: Why do we hate Heinlein? I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger in a Strange Land". I hated it. I hated it so thoroughly that I will extend that feeling to the author, and state "I hate Heinlein". I will never again read anything he has written. I know I am not alone. There are other Heinlein haters. I personally know one or two of them. If you have ever angrily discarded a copy of an RAH book, then come out of the closet! I do not wish to detail my opinion of SIASL, because I probably couldn't do it justice. Can someone more literate than myself explain, in one thousand words or less, why SIASL is such a supremely offensive tale? Mark Stevans cci632!mark ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 16:00:10 GMT From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Women & "Glory Road" k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes: > Carole Ashmore writes: >>There are also several refuting examples for Sherry's more complex >>complaint that the strong women, while there, are always there to >>fulfill some man's fantasy of being 'man enough to conquer and >>hold such a woman'. > >>Remember GLORY ROAD? . . .Remember his rude awakening in the last >>part of the book? [Synopsis of Oscar & Star's relationship is a >>role-reversal of "beautiful naive young women who marry men >>considerably 'above' them"] > > Oh, come on! Here we have the (supposedly) wisest person "in the > twenty universes", and the best way she can come up with to handle > the situation is to fall back on the old "manipulate the man using > sex" routine?!!! I'd hardly call that an enlightened or liberated > view of women. In fact, the book nauseated me. Well, actually, I didn't SAY it was an example of "an enlightened or liberated view of women." I said, or implied at least, that it was a conscious exploration of male and female role reversal in a traditional stereotyped situation. Certainly my notion of liberation is not role reversal but a change toward more reasonable roles for both men and women. I think a book like GLORY ROAD can be seen as a step in that direction because it brings home to men the discomfort of the subordinate role by showing a man in that role. And you missed an admittedly rather subtle, but important point. Star does not manipulate Oscar using sex; he's getting plenty of sex before meeting her. She manipulates him using romance, in the very broadest sense of the word. The romance of adventure, fantasy-adventure comtumes for both of them, picnics and love in the woods with servants to take care of all the mundane fixing and cleanup, a quick tour through exotic lands with exotic people and costumes. Indeed, the whole web of romance she spins around him is not so much sexual manipulation, but an almost exact analogy of the traditional 'romantic' trappings that are shown in so many books as useful to snare a woman into a subordinate role. You know, candlelight dinners, long beautiful dresses, formal dances, men who 'sweep you off your feet', and you never notice til after you're married and taking care of the castle while he goes off to slay dragons, that all the trappings cover a very subordinate role. Carole Ashmore ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 11 May 87 1001-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #216 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 11 May 87 1001-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #216 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 216 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - The Perfect Creature (8 msgs) & Plagarism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 May 87 13:00:14 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: The perfect (??) creature gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) writes: >Perfect is defined (in this context) by the local of evolution, and >evolution trys to produce perfect creatures, i.e. any change for >the better tends to be kept alive and breeding. Evolution doesn't "try" to do anything, and it's not heading in any direction. > We know too little about the universe outside of our planet, who > knows whats perfect out there? A perfect creature for this planet > is a more feasible task, but then for modern North America or some > other part of the globe ? The notion of discussing perfection in relation to biological organisms (or any other phenomenon) is basically ridiculous. Perfection assumes the existence of some sort of Platonic ideal against which all occurences of an object are measured. There ARE NO Platonic ideals: all you can say is that one organism is relatively better adapted to its current environment than another (and that in itself is a very difficult thing to do). Bill INgogly ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 19:22:52 GMT From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic) Subject: Re: The perfect (??) creature wfi@rti.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: >The notion of discussing perfection in relation to biological >organisms (or any other phenomenon) is basically ridiculous. >Perfection assumes the existence of some sort of Platonic ideal >against which all occurences of an object are measured. There ARE >NO Platonic ideals: all you can say is that one organism is >relatively better adapted to its current environment than another >(and that in itself is a very difficult thing to do). I don't like your use of the word `ridiculous' - it sounds too much aimed at the speaker rather than the idea. Nevertheless, you are right, and I feel I should even take this further. Evolution does not produce `best adapted' organisms, and at times not even `better adapted' ones - quite often two competing species branch off into different ecological niches and thus give up their competition (entering an empty niche is usually better than competing, even if you have the upper hand). The ONLY thing that evolution ensures is that an organism is viable (surviving). That's a tautology of course; if it weren't it would be dead. Another, competing organism may but need not infringe on this viability. In fact, at times adaptation to a given environment is of doubtful value. Consider the late dinosaurs, who seemed to be superbly adapted to their contemporary environment. They were so well adapted that a change in that environment just plain wiped them out. Perhaps the `evolutionary advantage' of the early mammals were just that they were NOT particularly well adapted, and thus flexible enough to `ride the changes'. In this sense, a *lack* of adaptation may offer evolutionary advantages. Let me note, for those who believe in the `wisdom of evolution', that by the rules of the evolutionary game, the dinosaurs played it quite correctly. Evolution, by its very structure, tends to adapt a race to those aspects of the environment that are stable for (typically) some dozen or hundreds of lifetimes of the individual organisms. The underlying paradigm is the projection of stability - *if it's so for the next year, it probably will remain so for the future* (I know this is a gross simplification). Evolution CANNOT prepare a race for (relatively) abrupt changes that are more than (say) a thousand generations off. From the point of view of dinosaurdom, this planet has just pulled an unfair surprise trick on them. (Well, I like it :-). There's a lesson for us humans in there somewhere, but I'm going to let it stand for now - feel free to invest some thought... perry@inteloa.intel.com ...!tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry ..!verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 87 09:07 EDT From: Subject: Perfect critter Just a few comments on designing the perfect race, rather than a long exposition. Background: They should come from a slightly ellipsoid planet with severe axial tilt, approximately the same size as earth, but with a density of perhaps 6.5 instead of earth's 5.5. The atmosphere should be thinner. Reason: The creatures should be adapted to as varied and as hostile an environment as possible. The ellipsoid planet will give severe differences in atmospheric pressure (from a biological standpoint). The severe axial tilt will provide hellacious seasonal temperature variations, and the daily variations will be accentuated by less atmosphere to insulate the ground at night. A higher density planet will have more gravity, resulting in a tougher and stronger creature, which one supposes will carry bigger weapons when they reach that tech level. The higher density of the planet will also insure more of the heavy elements needed for a technological civilization, while providing a higher than average radiation background. Of course, the creatures will be land dwellers. The net result of this is you have creatures adapted to a wide variety of climactic extremes, strong and tough, more tolerant to radiation and poor atmosphere, sitting in a nest of elements neccessary for high-tech. The physical form will come later, but must fit these conditions. Any comments? Greg Porter PORTERG@VCUVAX (Bitnet) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 87 09:09 EDT From: Subject: More on perfect critter As to the form of the perfect critter whose environment I outlined in a previous message. Given the environment, I don't think the singly redundant humanoid attributes would be enough (2 eyes, ears, etc.) I would go for three eyes, each one having a field of vision that slightly overlaps \ the others. This will give nearly a full hemisphere of vision. Even if one eye is lost, the creature will still retain depth perception capabilities. For ears, perhaps two would be enough. The focusing and direction sensing external ear (like cats) would be useful. The brain might as well go in the skull. There is just too much cablework going into it to justify the extra evolutionary expense of separating it from the sense organs. Just cushion and armor the hell out of it. While on the topic of a nervous system, does anyone see a problem with an electronic nervous system? Electrical transmission of nerve impulses is *so* much faster than the pitiful chemical reflexes us humans use. For manipulators, something for fine work, definitely. Limbs for sheer strength would also be useful, although I don't know if I would go for the asymmetry of a Motie. Perhaps strong limbs with an extra joint, having manipulators on this sub-limb. The total limb count would probably be six or so. Four-legged runners are faster than 2, and with any degree of intelligence, the loss of one load-bearing limb out of four could probably be compensated for better than a loss of 1 out of 2. Greg Porter PORTERG@VCUVAX ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 14:35:33 GMT From: gatech!mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: The perfect (??) creature perry@inteloa.intel.com writes: >I don't like your use of the word `ridiculous' - it sounds too much >aimed at the speaker rather than the idea. Nevertheless, you are >right, and I feel I should even take this further. ... I didn't mean to offend the speaker. You're right; it was a poor choice of words. Thanks for some excellent comments expanding on what I've said! Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 18:00:28 GMT From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: More on perfect critter PORTERG@VCUVAX.BITNET writes: >I would go for three eyes, each one having a field of vision that >slightly overlaps the others. ... [etc.] I always find aliens that were designed using an engineering approach unconvincing in SF stories. Evolution solves problems in a way that has nothing to do with a human engineer's approach to a problem. But too many SF authors approach the 'design' of an alien creature as though evolution somehow worked with a set of requirements to develop specs, then proceeded through various design stages in a rational fashion. The result is a creature that leaves someone with a background in biology scratching her head and wondering if ANYONE in the SF field knows anything about fundamental evolutionary theory. The creature feels phony in the same way a poorly-drawn, cardboard human character feels phony. Basic training for an SF author who wants to portray alien creatures should include a firm grounding in evolutionary theory, as well as current thought on the evolution of planetary systems. Linguistics would help, too, since many attempts at portraying alien languages are laughable (my favorite probably being Kurt Vonnegut/Kilgore Trout's creatures who communicated by simultaneously farting and tap dancing :-). Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 17:18:36 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce From: Holloway) Subject: Re: Perfect critter From: >Background: They should come from a slightly ellipsoid planet with >severe axial tilt, approximately the same size as earth, but with a >density of perhaps 6.5 instead of earth's 5.5. The atmosphere >should be thinner. Hmmm... Have you read Hal Clement's "Mission of Gravity"? The creatures there come from an ellipsoid planet with gravity ranging from 3G to some unbelievable amount. (The sequel, "Star Light", deals with the same creatures, different planet). And Larry Niven's "Known Space" series includes an ellipsoid planet, "Jinx", so attenuated that parts of the planet stick beyond the atmosphere. As does his planet, same millieu, "Plateau". Well, Plateau is out of the best part of the atmosphere, at least. Bruce Holloway {seismo,hplabs,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 17:55:24 GMT From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) Subject: Re: The perfect (??) creature perry@inteloa.intel.com writes: >[Lots of stuff about evolution and the dinosaurs, and how not being >perfectly adapted may be an advantage] > >There's a lesson for us humans in there somewhere, but I'm going to >let it stand for now - feel free to invest some thought... Man, in fact, is very well suited to a rapidly changing environment. Perhaps we have learned nature's lesson in the process of our evolution? We no longer adapt to our surroundings, rather we mold our surroundings whenever possible (soon the whole world will look like a McDonalds :-) Man is indeed a very flexible creature. We are really only specialized in one area - our brains - and that is one of the most powerfull tools for aiding us in rapid adapting, instead of freezing our buts off waiting to grow fur, we make coats, when we find food that is not normally edible we cook it. Now, this brain thing does have its disadvantages, we may yet blow ourselves off the planet as a direct result of its application, but you have to take the bad with the good as they say! Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 May 87 02:56:13 pdt From: rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Arthur Evans) Subject: Movie Flame Plagarismic huh? Y'know, I hate to break in on a perfectly nice witch-hunt, nor do I pretend to respect or supposrt plagarism, but there are a few things we might want to take into account before we go declaring that we won't support anyone who takes any ideas from anyone. To whit: Cliche: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Bakshi may have ripped of Bode's work without crediting him, and without paying any royalties to his estate, andf this is sure as hell deplorable. On the other hand, it says a lot about Bode's work that Bakshi would rip it off, and the film will stand for years, more a monument to Bode's creative genius than to Bakshi's. It is a shame that his name does not appear on it now, but his name will appear on it if history chooses to preserve it. The Terminator thing, though, gets a bit touchy. Here's where we have to remember that using other people's plot lines and writing styles is time-honored tradition, without which we would have virtually nothing to call great literature. We would have to despise Virgil as a cheap imitator of Homer, and Dante as a sycophantic copyist of both. And we would have to dump Shakespeare -- most, if not all of his plays were merely clever retellings of older plays. It's not just a case of being influenced by past authors -- it was just considered normal to adapt ideas from previous works, to imitate, translate, and retell them; Tolkien in _The Lord_of_the_Rings_ reworks myths and fables into a wholly original story -- I haven't heard anyone here saying that they won't buy Tolkien's books because he's a plagarist. Why not? Because the people who wrote the works aren't around to sue his estate? I'm sorry if I sound shrill -- what I'm really getting at is that you folks are taking what seems to me an excessively legalistic, capitalistic stance on this matter. Plots and genres were not considered a form of personal property until nations started passing copyright laws. I, for one, find these laws scary sometimes. If Shakespeare was alive today, would he sue the authors of _West_Side_Story_? Did any of you skip _Star_Wars_ because it lifted plot elements from Japanese cartoons? Or _Apocalypse_Now_ because it was a (rather direct) re-telling of Conrad's _Heart_of_Darkness_? No credit was given in either case, to my memory. Scary story, on related subject: A local (Santa Cruz, CA) health food restaurant named McDharma's was recently sued by McDonald's on the grounds that their name was too like McDonalds (i.e., began with McD). Now, to win this sort of suit, one has to prove that the other business is damaging the image of your business, and impairing sales. 'Course, McDon's is a multi-million dollar corporation, and McDharma's has one store, with about eight tables, but McDonald's happens to own a few first-string high-powered lawyers, and McDharma's has lost a name. So: Why is it that one company should have the right to a name, of all things? It wasn't like anyone MISTOOK McDharma's for McDonalds ... One served no meat, and one nothing but, but the law is wise and we are weak. Moral: If you got a Scottish last name, I recommend you change it before you lose your shirt -- McDonald's owns them all, and she's collecting rent. ARPA: rthr@ucscb.ucsc.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 12 May 87 0843-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #217 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 12 May 87 0843-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #217 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 217 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 May 87 06:40:40 GMT From: ranjit@atlantis.berkeley.edu (Ranjit Bhatnagar) Subject: Ellison on Tape I recently purchased the Waldentapes edition of Harlan Ellison reading his "A Boy and His Dog" and "'Repent, Harlequin,' Said the Ticktockman." I strongly recommend this and any other tapes of Ellison reading his own work to those of you who enjoy Ellison's writing. He is an excellent reader, he knows the work well (of course!), and his voice is perfect for the overall tone of the stories. I dug this out of a bargain bin at a local Waldenbooks. I hope they're not discontinuing it. Ranjit ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 17:50:40 GMT From: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: Ellison on Tape There's also a tape of Ellison reading "I'm Looking for Kadak" which I highly recommend. He reads it with a great deal of expression which makes the dry humor of the story even funnier. I don't know if it's still available or not, though. I bought my copy in 1980 at Noreascon Two, and suspect it was probably available only through specialty stores, etc. Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211 ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 22:49:36 GMT From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams) Subject: Re: Ellison on Tape I got my copy of "I'm Looking for Kadak" from the Harlan Ellison Record Collection, a sort of Harlan appreciation society which sells tapes and records of Harlan reading his work. I don't think they are accepting any new members, and I haven't seen or heard anything from them for a couple of years. (Some member of Harlan's household/staff usually runs it, and I think they've been busy.) Karen Williams g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 08:02:24 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Ellison and THE TERMINATOR From: ucla-cs!sgreen (Shoshanna Green) > It is my understanding that Harlan Ellison sued or threatened to > sue the makers of TERMINATOR for plagiarism, charging that they > ripped off a story of his which was adapted for an Outer Limits > episode. > > I have, in one of my collections, both the original story and the > script for Outer Limits. I've wanted to see the movie for some > time in order to compare them, but I will not do it in such a way > as to support the people who stole another person's work (i.e. I > wouldn't see it in a theater and probably wouldn't rent it). While I have great respect for Harlan for various reasons, I think he's a little too trigger-happy when it comes to suing for plagiarism. There are certain similarities between his two TOL teleplays and THE TERMINATOR, but the details are different enough that I don't see the latter as a rip-off. I'm sure that writer/director James Cameron didn't "steal" Ellison's work. At worst, it was likely a case of unconscious plagiarism. At any rate, as others have said, they settled out of court to Ellison's satisfaction. From: sci!daver (Dave Rickel) > Was this story "Demon With a Glass Hand"? Good story, but nothing > at all like The Terminator (sure, a couple of superficial > resemblances. There is an android involved. There is time travel > involved. The fate of the human race is involved. That seems to be > it. Oh yes. There was also some combat. Is Ellison claiming that > any story that involves androids, time travel, the human race, and > combat is a ripoff of "Demon With a Glass Hand"? Do people > believe him?). While Ellison claimed certain elements of "Demon with a Glass Hand" were present in THE TERMINATOR, the primary elements were from his other TOL script, "Soldier", in which a "bred" soldier from the future is accidentally transported into the past (present). If you can track down a copy of Ellison's collection FROM THE LAND OF FEAR, you'll find therein his "Soldier" teleplay, as well as his original story from which it's adapted. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 14:24:21 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@RUTGERS.EDU (Royal White) Subject: Re: Ellison and THE TERMINATOR If Harlan Ellison (or any other writer) feels that their ideas are being plagiarized, they have every right to sue. Harlan has pointed out that writers have for too long been abused by networks and studios. If a writer isn't smart enough to look out for his own interests, they deserve what they get. And if Harlan is the only writer smart enough to hire a lawyer and brave enough to go to court, he deserves whatever he can get. If a studio or network feels there was no plagiarism, they have every opportunity to prove it in court. Obviously since the case was settled out of court to Harlan's satisfaction, the studio must have considered themselves guilty! Royal White Jr. seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite work: 703-749-2384 ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 19:27:01 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!ism780!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod) Subject: Re: Ellison and Terminator daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: >> It is my understanding that Harlan Ellison sued or threatened to >> sue the makers of TERMINATOR for plagiarism, charging that they >> ripped off a story of his which was adapted for an Outer Limits >> episode. > >Was this story "Demon With a Glass Hand"? If I remember the note in Locus, Ellison's complaint was that somehow two of his Outer Limits scripts - Demon With a Glass Hand and Warrior - were merged and processed into The Terminator. I've seen both OL shows several times, and I have to agree with those who consider Ellison without much of a case. "Warrior" is closer to "Terminator", about a infantryman from the future who spontaneously time-travels back to our time, but it's hardly "Terminator". I suspect that Ellison must have a lawyer who's as intimidating and fast-talking as he is. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 87 16:55 EDT From: "Ronald A. Jarrell" Subject: RE: Terminator To: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU Shoshanna - Go ahead and rent it. Harlan Ellison won his case, and all tape copies of Terminator have a piece of credits computer overlayed onto the originals that say something along the lines of "special thanks to harlan ellison" or some such, acknowledging his idea. Ron Jarrell Va Tech CS jarrellra@vtcs1.cs.vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 17:31:42 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low) Subject: Re: Ellison vs The Terminator >Second, as nearly as I can tell, Ellison's Outer Limits episode >bears no significant resemblance to The Terminator, other than the >fact that both involve cyborgs, time travel, and the Frankenstein >syndrome. ... I'd say Ellison simply sicced his "killer lawyer" on >a target that happened to have a lot of money and lined his >pockets, pure and simple. Certainly, Ellison's fiction has >borrowed far more strongly from other and earlier SF authors than >The Terminator borrowed from Ellison. Harlan Ellison is very sensitive to having his ideas stolen by people in the movie industry. From what I know of the practices in this area, he has a certain amount of justification for his tendancy to sue. Danny Low Hewlett-Packard ...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 May 87 12:49 EDT From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Ellison and Lawsuits For a *FASCINATING* look at Harlan Ellison, lawsuits, Jim Shooter and the degradation that human beings are capable of, I must highly recommend the latest issue of 'The Comics Journal', #115 I believe. One of you mentioned this earlier, here are some details. About 7 years ago, in a Comics Journal interview, Harlan Ellison, in his inimitable style, managed to simultaneously compliment writer Michael Fleisher and also imply that he might be missing a few marbles. It was typical Ellison sarcasm, but Michael Fleisher was not amused. He decided to sue Ellison and Gary Groth (editor/publisher of the Journal) for 2 million dollars. Ellison and Groth won, but the account of the trial is nonetheless a fascinating one. Jim Shooter, former editor-in-chief of Marvel was brought in as an expert witness, as was Dean Mullaney, editor of Eclipse comics. A more petty pair of rogues you'll never hear. Soley on the basis of the fact that The Journal often prints bad reviews of their companies' comics, these 2 gentlemen demonstrate the lowest, most debased testimony that is at all possible. Thank God for the first ammendment. Ellison and Groth won, but the legal bills were so high that Ellison had to have a 'roast' in his own honor (featuring Ray Bradbury, Stan Lee and Robin Williams among others), and Groth had to publish a whole separate comic book featuring donated submissions from various sources. By the way, for any other comics enthusiasts, that was not a misprint, that's Jim Shooter, FORMER Editor-In-Chief :-) Dan Parmenter Hampshire College ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 16:54:26 GMT From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Ellison and THE TERMINATOR > rwhite@netxcom.UUCP (Royal White) >> boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) >>I think he's a little too trigger-happy when it comes to suing for >>plagiarism. > > If Harlan Ellison (or any other writer) feels that their ideas are > being plagerized, they have every right to sue. I agree with both Jerry and Royal here. The two positions are compatible. Harlan has every right to sue... and he is overeager to excersize this right. > Obviously since the case was settled out of court to Harlan's > satisfaction, the studio must have considered themselves guilty! Oh yeah, right, sure, its "obvious" they considered themselves guilty. Couldn't be that they could do arithmetic and see that it would be cheaper to settle than to litigate, oh no, they're guilty alright. Who ever heard of an executive in the entertainment industry capable of doing arithmetic anyhow? Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 02:20:54 GMT From: seismo!mnetor!alberta!bjorn@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: More Ellison vs. the world [Paranoia chips supreme] I have never seen an "Outer Limits" episode in my life. I have one short story collection by Harlan Ellison. I've read this collection but nothing else by Ellison as far as I know. I consider it probable that he is the author of some short stories in one of the best of "this and that" volumes that I have in another continent. I have read somewhere between one and two thousand SF books in my life (my personal SF library stands at about 600 books right now), spanning the spectrum: old and new, hard and soft. I can categorically state that there was not one idea or concept exploited in "The Terminator" that was original as far as I'm concerned. Be it Cyborgs, the particular causality of time travel, the specific detection equipment (dogs, etc), following someone into the past and or all of these taken together (ie. even the plot). In short "The Terminator" was from my view a "cliche" SF movie distinguished from SF movies of lesser quality only by excellence in execution. I think that Terminator was/is an excellent SF film. As far as plagiarism in Terminator is concerned I would like to look at the evidence, who knows it may be that Terminator is more or less a direct translation of something Ellison wrote in the past. All the same I'd be mighty surprised if Ellison's Doberman lawyer could come up with anything related to the film that was original to Ellison and cannot not be found in my own library (most of which is a continent away as I alluded to previously). Someone mentioned not adding to the bulging coffers of those that practice plagiarism. Agreed!! As far as I can see Ellison is always whining about this and that. Claiming as his old ideas. Constantly in litigation, etc.. I think I'll stay away from Ellison thank you. More than willing to discuss and research the issue as well as being proven wrong about Ellison (try me), Bjorn R. Bjornsson {ubc-vision,ihnp4,mnetor}!alberta!bjorn PS. Now for sure somebody is going to say: "how can you read 1000+ SF books and only one of them is by Ellison?" So I say: Go ahead, ask!!!! Who knows I might answer: "Well, it wasn't all in English" But then again I might not B-) B-). PPS. I envy anyone that's just starting to read SF. The year I started reading SF in English I polished off about 500 books. After that things went much slower due to the simple fact that it's so much harder to get a hold of the "good stuff" after you've plowed through the best of the field for a while. 'Cause after that travelogues of strange worlds that are without a STORY (plot, characterization, theme, etc.) just don't cut it (Integral Trees anyone?). Hey there's light at the end of the tunnel, it's always possible to re- and re-read the best!!!! I also envy anyone that has not seen "Oh, Lucky Man" and is about to see it in a theater (not on the tube, see it in a theater!!!! (3 hours well spent B-)). ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 08:58:57 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Ellison and THE TERMINATOR From: netxcom!rwhite (Royal White, Jr.) > If Harlan Ellison (or any other writer) feels that their ideas are > being plagiarized, they have every right to sue....And if Harlan is > the only writer smart enough to hire a lawyer and brave enough to > go to court, he deserves whatever he can get. This is true, *but*, I still think that Ellison is too trigger-happy. Now with the "Brillo" case, he was definitely in the right. He had, at a studio's (Paramount, I think, but I'm not positive) request, drawn up a prospectus for a regular series based on his and Bova's story. The studio ended up turning it down, but about a year later, what should show up on the tube but FUTURE COP, using the same basic premise as "Brillo". This was a cut and dried case of plagiarism. I don't think that THE TERMINATOR is close enough to Ellison's OUTER LIMITS teleplays to make for a solid case against the film. > If a studio or network feels there was no plagiarism, they have > every opportunity to prove it in court. Say what? As the defendents, they don't have to prove *anything*. It's up to the plaintiffs to prove the studio *did* plagiarize. Remember "innocent until proven guilty"? > Obviously since the case was settled out of court to Harlan's > satisfaction, the studio must have considered themselves guilty! Well, as I said, it could well have been a case of unconscious plagiarism. The idea may have been in the back of Cameron's head, but he wasn't aware (or didn't remember) that the idea came from an external source. This is not a particularly rare occurence. *Perhaps* they *did* settle because Cameron realized that Ellison's teleplays *were* where the ideas came from. But still, the fact that they settled out of court isn't *necessarily* an admission of guilt. For one, Cameron could very well have never seen those OUTER LIMITS episodes and came up with the TERMINATOR concept independently, but if Ellison's lawyer can put up a convincing case, and Cameron's lawyer can't "prove" that the idea was derived independently, then Cameron loses, regardless of the truth of the matter. For two, they might well have decided it was cheaper to settle out of court than to fight the case for months or possibly years (I doubt that Ellison would ever voluntarily throw in the towel). Regardless of the ideal, Justice favors the rich and persistent. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 12 May 87 0853-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #218 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 12 May 87 0853-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #218 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 218 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 03 May 87 22:16 EST From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Boskone alternatives Why does everyone act like Boskone is the only con in the world? There's plenty of others around - even on the same weekend. Hell, I wanted to go to Boskone next year myself, but seeing as I've never been to one, and have been known to wear costumes and am therefore probably not encouraged to even try :), well, there's lots of other cons that are able to be a bit more welcoming. For all those costumers being officially discouraged, there is CostumeCon 6 being held on President's Day weekend '88 in California. Media fen who will miss the film & video stuff....well, there's CampbellCon, a Star Trek/media con, same weekend, at the Columbia Inn in Columbia, Maryland. If anyone wants the addresses for either of these, e-mail me directly and I'll dig them up. And my two bits on the new Boskone rules: non-transferrable memberships: bad idea. come on, NESFA, what do you think is going to happen? people buying up memberships and selling them to uninvited people? I think your invitees will want to come themselves. under-18-not-allowed (generally): *real* bad idea. I started going to cons when I was 13, and like the majority of underage fen never caused any more problems than the average adult attendee. I'm 18 now, but I think that the policy stinks. I never would have been able to convince my parents to accompany me to a convention - they think the *adults* I meet there are not the type of people a teenager should be associating with. Seems they read SF or something strange like that. Bad influence, all right. costumes officially discouraged: unfriendly of NESFA. there is no rule against wearing a costume anywhere you like (as far as I know - and I can't wait for someone to tell me that Boston has a law against it or something :) ) This probably won't be too effective. And what about the people who have done *costume* panels for Boskone in the past? Are they still invited, or are they officially discouraged too? The rest of the rules seem fairly sensible (although I'd love to see them officially discouraging parties at whatever the decreed closing time is....), and NESFA really is in a bit of bind with the hotel situation, so why don't we give them a break? They're doing their best - although as far as limiting memberships goes, I think first-come, first-served would be a fairer (not to mention simpler) policy. But it's NESFA's con, and the rest of us just don't have much say in the matter. Me, I think I'll head for CampbellCon. Susan de Guardiola DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 87 04:19 EST From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: UK SF-cons Richard W. Rodway writes: >Does anyboy know of any Sf-cons that take place in the U.K. I >would love to "try one out" but I have never heard of any in this >country (or any non-university fan clubs)). Air fares to the U.S. try looking in the gaming Magazine White Dwarf for fan clubs. conventions: Rubicon 2/Silicon May29-Jun1 Chequers Hotel, Newbury UK m'ship 5 pounds (no symbol on this keyboard!) relaxacon info: Krystyna Oborn, Bishop's Cottage, Park House Lane, Reading, Berks., UK Albacon '87 Jun19-22 Central Hotel, Glasgow Scotland GoHs: Brian Stableford, Josephine Saxton m'ship 8 pounds/4 pounds supporting info: Albacon '87, c/o Mark Meenan, "Burnawn", Stirling Rd, Dumbarton G82 2PJ, Scotland, UK Unicon 8/Connote8 Jul 3-5 New Hall, Cambridge, UK GoH Geraldine Harris m'ship 8 pounds/4 pounds supporting info: Connote8, Trinity College, Cambridge, CB2 1TQ, UK no relation to USA Unicon Jul 17-19 Conspiracy Aug 27-Sep 2 Brighton Conf. Ctr & Metropole Hotel (Worldcon '87) Brighton UK GoHs: Doris Lessing, Alfred Bester, more (LOTS more!) 45th World SF Convention info: Conspiracy '87, Box 43, Cambridge, England CB1 3JJ if you can get to any one of these, just asking around and picking up flyers should tell you about a whole lot more of them. anyone else out there interested in the Worldcon this year? it's probably too late to e-mail me (I'm only at college for one more week), but write to me - address below. I'm definitely going. Susan de Guardiola DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET 169 Pershing Ave Ridgewood NJ 07450 USA 201-445-0385 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 87 9:05:39 EDT From: the Shadow Subject: Conventional Questions Dear Readers, While we are on the subject of SF conventions, I thought it might be appropriate at this time to interject a question or two for the consideration of those more experienced in matters of "con-going" than I. I recently attended my first-ever Balticon. I was entirely unprepared for this experience, since my previous cons had all been LepreCons (held annually in Phoenix, AZ). Balticon draws roughly FIVE TIMES the number of people that I had previously seen at a con. In addition, I attended with one of my two SF-reading friends in the area, rather than with a crowd of twenty or so members of a certain fan club. (In case you hadn't guessed, I am somewhat new to the East Coast and to East Coast conventions.) Needless to say, I spent my time there feeling more than a little bit lost. My questions, then, are the following: 1) Assuming one is forced to walk into a convention "Cold Turkey" (that is, without a large pre-existing social group), how should one go about finding people of similar interests/dispositions? 2) Are there any good fan clubs in the Baltimore area that do more than just SF-oriented things? (The club I refer to in Phoenix went on a number of hikes, attended concerts, and in general explored the area's attractions. I even went sky-diving for the first-thru-sixth times with a few of them.) 3) Which other cons (large or small) in this area (DC to NYC) are worth attending? What the positive/negative aspects of each? Are any readers of SF-Lovers planning to attend any of these conventions? If so, would there be a way for us to form a small private party, just to get acquainted? You should probably respond to questions 2 & 3 privately. If anyone wishes and there is any response, I will summarize and post at some later date. Question #1 might be of general interest to readers of SF-Lovers. Thank you for your time, Jeff Hanes USnail: 1447 Harford Square Edgewood, MD 21040 UUCP: {seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl!jeffh ARPA: MILNET: ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 17:17:49 GMT From: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Request for convention recommendations After reading NESFA's letter concerning Boskone 25, I am of two minds as to whether I will be going to Boskone. Given that the dealer's room is likely to shrink to 60 tables, coupled with NESFA's attitude toward people who sell anything but books, I suspect my chances of getting even 1 table are about those of a snowball in Hell. This is not an ad, so I won't go into what I would be selling if I do get a table. If anybody is dieing of curiosity, e-mail me. I've already said my piece on NESFA's policies, and there's no point in going into it again. They certainly have every right to decide who and what they want at their convention. As several people have pointed out, there are other conventions out there. I am hoping people on the net will send me suggestions of other conventions that they've been to that fit the general description of what I'm looking for. I'm interested in hearing about US conventions which tend to attract something on the order of 1500 or more people. If the con is more than about 300 miles from Boston I will end up having to fly there, which is hard to justify for anything much smaller than that. Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated, and I will summarize any responses which seem to be of general interest for the net. Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211 ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 17:10:58 GMT From: beal@puff.wisc.edu (Roberta Beal) Subject: Re: Conventional Questions jeffh@BRL.ARPA writes: >1) Assuming one is forced to walk into a convention "Cold Turkey" > (that is, without a large pre-existing social group), how should > one go about finding people of similar interests/dispositions? Oh, that's easy! For general people-meeting go to the consuite and just talk to people. You meet some very interesting people in the consuite (example: I once talked to Jack Chalker for 30 minutes before I looked down at his name badge to see who he was). As for special interests ... you can almost always find a programming event tailored to your interests (filk singing, gaming, costuming, sercon, ...), I would assume the other people at the panel/event also share your interest. The best thing about going to a convention w/o your usual group of friends is that you *do* meet new people, people you probabaly wouldn't have met otherwise. Then, you have a new convention friend you can talk to at the next con you go to. You'd be amazed how many people you'll know after a couple of years. Robin Beal University of Wisconsin - Madison ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 04:11:26 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Request for convention recommendations >I'm interested in hearing about US conventions which tend to >attract something on the order of 1500 or more people. If the con >is more than about 300 miles from Boston I will end up having to >fly there, which is hard to justify for anything much smaller than >that. Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated, and I will >summarize any responses which seem to be of general interest for >the net. There are two west coast cons I never miss. Octocon in Santa Rosa (in October when they have it, usually every two or three years) and Baycon in San Jose (Memorial Day Weekend, this year May 22-25). Octocon is basically a sercon, but they don't actively restrict things, it just works out that way -- this is a pro and reader haven as well as having lots of interest to others. Last year it ran about 800-1200 people, I think (I don't have exact figures). Baycon is a regional for the San Francisco Bay Area, and has something of interest for everyone. I think they're expecting about 1,500-2,000 this year. There is, of course, Westercon, in Oakland this year. I'm going, but I tend to prefer smaller, more personal con's than the large regionals, so I don't get to it religiously. From the people I've talked to on the concom this year, it looks pretty reasonable. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 00:12:39 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: con program attendance spem@hscfvax.UUCP (G. T. Samson) writes: >Is it common that people who go to cons attend almost no >programming? (This was true for me for the first 3 Boskones I went >to... but I got curious this year.) Do people think it's "good" >not to attend programming? Before this past weekend, I hadn't attended any programming (except the Elfquest meetings, but I was Expected at those... :^) for well over a year. At Ad Astra, very few of the panelists or topics have interested me, so I've stopped looking -I've promised several people I'll try harder this year- and have managed to be very busy just sitting in the lobby greeting people as they go by... Toronto has gotten crowded! I also attended a few Chicago cons, and found that I was too busy meeting people I'd been writing to / receiving submissions from (etc.) for years to actually LOOK AT the program book... Oh, the embarrasment... Actually, I do remember that Windycon had some interesting world-building and alien-building things going on... I like programming, and prefer cons that have good, strong, serious programming that isn't overshadowed by backrubbing seminars. At Contraption, this past weekend, I attended only a small amount of programming (three or four panels and a few of the movies), mostly because I slept through the stuff that looked good in the listings - but I was reminded of how much I used to enjoy real programming. I guess getting known / getting to know others has its disadvantages. At Contraption, I spent my time with people I met AT THE CON (gasp!) (Ask Ken and Covert about teenaged rowdies... oh no!), and I think the lack of "crowds I know" contributed to the amount of time I had for the con itself. Awhile back, a very brief discussion of the World Fantasy Con appeared on the net; I liked the Con because it had good programming, and I agree that it lacks/avoids the more fannish aspects found in most cons. If a "sercon" is done that well, I've no complaints (Torque 3 was another great one), but I guess I do prefer the larger cons with a broader range in programming, just because I also, then, get to see a lot of friends that DON'T attend the serious programming. I also like the all-night (or near all-night) movies that definitely WON'T be found at the serious, literary cons. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 00:23:19 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: con program attendance rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes: >Go outside the normal sf groups for speakers. Try local colleges, >business and industry, special interest groups, government (not >just NASA), non-sf writers, the school systems... Which reminds me... "Speakers" are a great idea. I've seen concoms go out to find interesting speakers from outside fandom, especially for the science talks, but they seldom find people that can PERFORM. One of the best con guests I've ever seen was Andrew Offut at Incognicon (Ottawa); he's a dynamic speaker no matter what the topic. If you're looking into the local university or college for speakers, recruit somebody to do some snooping for you, and try to get the prof that all the students love... I guess the topic has been beaten to death by filkers everywhere... All sorts of lovely ideas come up about the difference between performers and "fans who sing". I don't want the amatuers cut out completely, because a lot of them are very talented. But if the concom is looking for more work (ha!), they should put some energy into encouraging style, to add spice to the brainpower. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 04:33:45 GMT From: dayton!viper!ddb@RUTGERS.EDU (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: Conventional Questions jeffh@BRL.ARPA writes: >1) Assuming one is forced to walk into a convention "Cold Turkey" > (that is, without a large pre-existing social group), how should > one go about finding people of similar interests/dispositions? Attend programming aimed at people of that disposition. Visit special rooms set aside for that activity or group. Go do special parties announced as intended for that audience. Get to know people who ARE part of the local group and ask them to point you at people who share your interest (even during a con, this can be done; volunteering to work usually gets you spending time with a lot of the more active locals, since they will all be working the con....). David Dyer-Bennet UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 12 May 87 0909-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #219 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 12 May 87 0909-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #219 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 219 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (14 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 May 87 16:37:05 GMT From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes: >I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger >in a Strange Land". I hated it. I hated it so thoroughly that I >will extend that feeling to the author, and state "I hate >Heinlein". I will never again read anything he has written. > >I know I am not alone. There are other Heinlein haters. I >personally know one or two of them. If you have ever angrily >discarded a copy of an RAH book, then come out of the closet! > >I do not wish to detail my opinion of SIASL, because I probably >couldn't do it justice. Can someone more literate than myself >explain, in one thousand words or less, why SIASL is such a >supremely offensive tale? How, how, how, HOW can you form such a strong opinion about an author from reading only ONE of his books? _Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_ is probably the least characteristic of all of Heinlein's works. It doesn't follow the usual patterns and ideas of his books at all. Before you decide to trash RAH completely I suggest you read some of his better works: Try Methuselah's Children Time Enough for Love The Moon is a Harsh Mistress Starship Troppers If This Goes On and maybe some of his juvenile works: Starman Jones The Rolling Stones (alias Space Family Stone) Between Planets etc. etc. etc. As the saying goes, "Try it, you'll like it." Heinlein didn't get to be the dean of science fiction for nothing. He's good. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 09:54:52 GMT From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? mark@cci632 (Mark Stevans) writes: >I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger >in a Strange Land". I hated it. I hated it so thoroughly that I >will extend that feeling to the author, and state "I hate >Heinlein". I will never again read anything he has written. Hmmm. I'm in a slightly different boat. I read SiaSL when I was fifteen or so, during the most idyllic of summer vacations in an isolated little bay down in Florida. That was the only time in my life I ever played a radio--there was this one song they kept playing in the background, whose only lyrics were a whispered "do it". (If anyone could identify that song for me, I'd be very grateful.) I also sent away for some free pamphlets from Brother Ted Armstrong, or maybe it was Father Herbert Armstrong, or whomever. That was the time I finally understood what was going on behind Hewitt & Stromberg _Real and Abstract Analysis_, a book that I'd been beating my head over for years at the time. So let's just say it was an idyllic summer. I read SiaSL. I enjoyed it very much. And I also realized that I'd never read another Heinlein novel again--although I've read and enjoyed numerous of his short stories before and since. Matthew P Wiener Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 01:19:50 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Smith) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) smann@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Mann) writes: >>If so, how did you manage to miss [mention of several of RAH >>female characters]? None of these are pretty faces and sex >>objects. > >I've been reading Heinlein for many years and consider his earlier >works masterpieces. I consider his more recent stuff trash. Note that most of the female characters I mentioned where from his earlier works. Do you mean that it is his later females who are sex objects, or all of his females? Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 15:09:42 GMT From: rael@ihlpa.att.com (r.pietkivitch) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes: > I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger > in a Strange Land". I hated it. I hated it so thoroughly that I > will extend that feeling to the author, and state "I hate > Heinlein". I will never again read anything he has written. Hmmm. Too bad about that really. Stranger In A Strange Land was probably the book I liked *best* by Heinlein. You must've hated similar things or concepts before you encountered the book, right? You might want to try reading the book 2150 AD by Thea Alexander. Though it begins to drag on near the end, the concepts it tries to present are at the very least, thought provoking in a similar way. Bob Pietkivitch ...ihnp4!ihlpa!rael ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 18:26:56 GMT From: wrd@tekigm2.tek.com (Bill Dippert) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? I must state that I first encountered science fiction by reading Heinlein. Whether it was this bias or what, I do not know, but I have always judged all other science fiction authors by how they matched up to Heinlein. I have never found any that were better than Heinlein. I have read Arthur C. Clarke, Isaac Asimov, Pohl Anderson, and many many others. Clark, Asimov and Anderson I rank with Heinlein, the rest are lesser authors. As far as I know, I own and have read every Heinlein ever written. Obviously some are better than others. You would expect absolute perfection every time? Furthermore, just what was it about SIASL that you did not like? Heinlein may be justly accused as being sexist, so was E.E. Smith, but on the other hand how can "Friday" be considered sexist? Maybe it is, being a male I might not recognize what the feminists or NOWers or whomever are objecting to. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 03:06:23 GMT From: harvard!linus!watmath!javoskamp@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) I'm posting this for a friend. johna@pwcs.StPaul.GOV (John A. Erickson) writes: >As a matter of fact, most of the Heinlein discussions I've seen on >the net have ignored one KEY fact about RAH: he tells a yarn like >nobody else. (OK, at least like very few people currently >writing.) > >It seems to me that one thing that sets him above many other >writers is the fact that he can inspire such heated debate, while, >if one looks at the most superficial levels, he can sustain a good >yarn. (I know I'm being redundant. It's OK--I'm through) The problem with Heinlein is that we can look back upon his older works and compare them to his newer "garbage". The depressing thing is that his garbage is better than 90% of the stuff on the market (Zelazny excepted :-]). The man has had 4+ strokes after all. The best thing he ever wrote is the "Moon is a Harsh Mistress". (or Starship Troopers :-] ) UUCP : {allegra,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watnot!javoskamp CSNET : javoskamp%watnot@waterloo.CSNET ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 14:00:50 GMT From: uwvax!uwmacc!oyster@RUTGERS.EDU (Vicarious Oyster) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? wrd@tekigm2.TEK.COM (Bill Dippert) writes: >I must state that I first encountered science fiction by reading >Heinlein.... Clark, Asimov and Anderson I rank with Heinlein, the >rest are lesser authors. As far as I know, I own and have read >every Heinlein ever written. My wife was introduced to science fiction years ago by somebody who gave her _Stranger in a Strange Land_. To this day, I haven't been able to undo the damage-- she still has a scornful tone to her voice as she states "I don't like science fiction; it's not good." And this in spite of the fact that she has thoroughly enjoyed books I've pulled off my SF shelf (things like the Dorsai trilogy, Dune, etc). I feel better, though, when she can't get through _Lord Jim_, another of my favorites. :-) ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 01:57:01 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!ism780!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes: >I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger >in a Strange Land". I hated it. > >Can someone more literate than myself explain, in one thousand >words or less, why SIASL is such a supremely offensive tale? Probably not, unless you give us some idea of >why< it so offended you. Since you had such a strong reaction, we must presume that it attacked or ridiculed things you hold dear, or that you felt that it cheated you - failed to carry through on its premises - in some obscure way. If this is too much introspection for you, tell us what you >do< like, and we'll try to make some inferences from that data. I can't imagine anybody hating Stanger in a Strange Land. ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 9 May 1987 07:19:10-PDT From: fusci%showit.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Ray Fusci) Subject: Heinlein's Space Scout stories ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) writes: > There are *2* such stories. "Nothing Ever Happens on the Moon" >was serialized in the April and May, 1950 issues of Boy's Life, and >"Tenderfoot in Space" was in the May-July, 1958 issues. Neither has >ever been reprinted; they are the only published works of RAH I've >never read, *sigh*. Well, you can sigh a little less. "Nothing Ever Happens on the Moon" was reprinted in _EXPANDED_UNIVERSE_, ACE, 1982, ISBN 0-441-21883-0. Ray Fusci ARPA: fusci@scotch.dec.com UUCP: ...!decwrl!scotch.dec.com!fusci ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 06:51:18 GMT From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU From: (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes: >I do not wish to detail my opinion of SIASL, because I probably >couldn't do it justice. Can someone more literate than myself >explain, in one thousand words or less, why SIASL is such a >supremely offensive tale? It is offensive _specifically because_ it was intended to offend the sensibilities of anyone who couldn't see that many of our cultural "givens" are _not_ laws of nature. Heinlein's avowed intent was to write a book making a case (cases?) for the opposite of various "unquestionable" axioms. Cannibalism, marriage, sex, religion... Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 87 15:25:06 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore): >Have you read THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST? Do you remember that the >whole first part of the book is basically an exercise in pointing >out that in order to survive the passengers in a 'lifeboat' had >better have a captain who is obeyed unquestioningly? Do you >remember who turns out to be the only capable captain? Not the >fantasy hero type, not the brilliant computer programmer, not the >genious scientist, but Hilda Burroughs, all round reniassance woman >with a gut instinct for organization and command. Note that she is >shown, not only as the best captain, but also as the only one >capable of getting the rest of the 'crew' (even her husband) to >recognize her superiority for command. Strong agreement. In fact, I think Hilda Burroughs is the best portrayal of a strong, ``independent woman'' yet. It must be realized that our prejudices STILL get in the way of portraying strong women. If you set out to write about a strong woman and avoid the feminine prejudices, you get a man with a woman's name -- which is even worse than the usual. Someday our society will unbend enough for us to see what a strong woman REALLY looks like -- right now it duplicates the stories; a strong woman is (socially) a man. :-( [Captain! Sensors detect flames coming in from all directions!] I should point out that in NUMBER OF THE BEAST, there are a few points where Hilda leans on a man (generally, Zeb) for emotional support, and I fully expect to have that thrown in my face as a counterexample to her ``strength''. Ha! If more MEN looked for emotional support, they'd have fewer stress-related disorders. (Talking from experience here.) Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, OH 44060 +01 216 255 1080 {decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 17:55:38 GMT From: kathy@xn.ll.mit.edu (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: Heinlein's Space Scout stories ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) writes: > There are *2* such stories. "Nothing Ever Happens on the Moon" >was serialized in the April and May, 1950 issues of Boy's Life, >and "Tenderfoot in Space" was in the May-July, 1958 issues. >Neither has ever been reprinted; they are the only published works >of RAH I've never read, *sigh*. I saw these once in the collection of a friend who saves everything, and while I didn't have time to more than glance at them, I was under the impression that the material in "Tenderfoot in Space" got incorporated into "Farmer in the Sky" later. Does anyone who's actually read them know if this is correct? Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 87 00:14:38 BST (Postman Pat ver 3.1) From: Zigetty Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #210 This is my first reply to SF-LOVERS so I will make no apologies.. First subject is Heinlein. Yes I accept the important role he has had in the evolution of SF as aa acceptable genre (end of praise). However, let me add my 5 cents worth to the debate. Heinlein was years before his time in that he pre-empted the laissez-faire/new right libertarianism which is sweeping the west. How anyone can take a blatantly milataristic and xenophobic piece of raw hate like Starship Troopers as a work of intelligent (and typical work) is beyond my comprehension. Despite the fact that the U.S. was crippled both economically and politically by its involvement in S.E. Asia,people still maintain that Heinlein is a credible author. What's wrong haven't any of you read the FOREVER WAR ? Or seen Platoon.... ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 22:14:24 GMT From: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes: >Mark Stevans writes: >>Why is SIASL [Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land"] is such a >>supremely offensive tale? > >Leonard Erickson responds: >>It is offensive _specifically because_ it was intended to offend >>the sensibilities of anyone who couldn't see that many of our >>cultural "givens" are _not_ laws of nature. > >>Heinlein's avowed intent was to write a book making a case >>(cases?) for the opposite of various "unquestionable" axioms. >>Cannibalism, marriage, sex, religion... and prostitution (remember Tamara?). >But not homophobia? Oh, sorry, this must be a law of nature. He took that on in Time Enough For Love. While RAH is quite apparently unabashedly heterosexual, I think he grew in his openness concepts between Stranger and Time Enough. His later works, notably those involving Secundus and Tertius acknowledge that, for instance, being in bed with Galahad is a "good thing" for his male characters. Galahad and Ishtar decide to bunk together (at the beginning of Time Enough) before they know each other's gender. While I don't doubt his sexual focus is heterosexual, his later works show *at least* tolerance of, if not support for, homosexuality, but mostly as anysexuailty ("I love *that* person, I'll share bedtime with him/her."). Kristopher Stephens Amdahl Corporation 408-746-6047 krs@amdahl.amdahl.com amdahl!krs ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 12 May 87 0946-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #220 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 12 May 87 0946-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #220 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 220 Today's Topics: Films - Influences & Ice Pirates (2 msgs) & Eraserhead & 2001 (4 msgs) & A Request & Good/Bad Movies (2 msgs) & Supergirl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Apr 87 00:27:38 GMT From: hollombe@ttidca.tti.com (The Polymath) Subject: Re: Under even more influences From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >I have heard other people find the following influences on >StarWars...C3P0 and R2D2 being Laurel & Hardy. C3PO and R2D2 are actually modeled on the two comic characters of Akiro Kurosawa's "The Big Fortress". Lucas has stated he got the whole idea of Star Wars from that film, and many of the details. I don't recall all the similarities I noted, but the source of the light-saber is pretty obvious -- it's a high-tech samurai sword. The films' opening scenes have similarities too. Jerry Hollombe hollombe@TTI.COM Citicorp(+)TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, x2483 {csun|philabs|psivax|trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 87 17:26:17 GMT From: hollombe@ttidca.tti.com (The Polymath) Subject: Re: On a lighter note... ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes: > _Ice Pirates_ - rented this one. I wasted $2. Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one here with a sense of humor. I liked this one. It's a hilarious send-up and deliberately so. Granted, some of the gags are dumb, but overall I found it great light entertainment. If you liked things like "The Pirate Movie" and "Battle Beyond the Stars" you'll like this one. If not, go get a sense of humor. (-: Jerry Hollombe hollombe@TTI.COM) Citicorp(+)TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, x2483 {csun|philabs|psivax|trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 05:45:15 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: On a lighter note... hollombe@ttidcb.UUCP writes that ICE PIRATES was a waste of the $2 rental fee. ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes: >Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one here with a sense of humor. >I liked this one. It's a hilarious send-up and deliberately so. >Granted, some of the gags are dumb, but overall I found it great >light entertainment. Yeah, I liked it too. It was so unbelievably stupid it was a riot. I mean, Space Herpie the Love Bug? ARGH! The theater I saw it at had several seats in the front row roped off, with rope passing across the arms and over the seat in such a way as to hold anyone in the seat there. Reminded us of Vogon Poetry Appreciation chairs, and the image fitted the movie. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 87 15:31 EDT From: (Rob Malouf) Subject: Eraserhead > The only reason anyone should see this movie is if they were > poisoned and wanted to get sick. The only flick I have ever seen > worse than Zardoz was Eraserhead, but that's another story. It certainly is! I saw _Eraserhead_, and I am afraid I missed the point. Most of the audience seem to enjoy it (then again, most of the audience was stoned!), but it seemed to me that the movie was just filled with strangeness for strangeness' sake! Each scene was progressively more bizzare than the one before. *** Here there be spoilers (not that it makes any difference) *** The whole section from when the "hero's" head pops if in the radiator after listening to the cauliflower-faced woman singing, falls into the street, is taken to a pawn shop by a small boy, and made into pencil erasers is probably one of the oddest sequences in cinema. It also seems to be totally unjustified? I find it hard to believe that such a pointless movie could be so well- acclaimed. What did I miss? Rob Malouf Marine Sciences Research Center State University of New York Stony Brook, NY 11794-5000 RMALOUF@SBCCMAIL.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 87 16:43 EST From: (Kaile Goodman) Subject: Good SF Movies Not surprisingly, several people have mentioned 2001 for the Good SF movie list. While I thought that it was a very good story, (except the ending is a little "cosmic" for my tastes), I thought the movie was incredibly slow. Granted, I may be somewhat jaded with today's special effects, but I felt like I was listening to a 78rpm record at 33rpm. Some of the scenes felt a lot like the first Star Trek movie when they spent about 20 minutes panning the Enterprise. I just kept thinking "get on with it already." Kaile Goodman KGoodman@Smith.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 14:20:36 GMT From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Good SF Movies From: (Kaile Goodman) >Not surprisingly, several people have mentioned 2001 for the Good >SF movie list. While I thought that it was a very good story, >(except the ending is a little "cosmic" for my tastes), I thought >the movie was incredibly slow. Granted, I may be somewhat jaded >with today's special effects, but I felt like I was listening to a >78rpm record at 33rpm. Some of the scenes felt a lot like the >first Star Trek movie when they spent about 20 minutes panning the >Enterprise. I just kept thinking "get on with it already." It's probably not today's special effects that have jaded you so much as Lucas-style fast cut editing. Still, a lot of people thought 2001 kind of slow when it was first released, too. I believe the shuttle docking footage was shortened right after the original premiere. I liked both films, BTW. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 87 10:30:10 GMT From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) Subject: 2001: slow down, you move too fast KGOODMAN@SMITH writes: >Not surprisingly, several people have mentioned 2001 for the Good >SF movie list. While I thought that it was a very good story, >(except the ending is a little "cosmic" for my tastes), I thought >the movie was incredibly slow. Granted, I may be somewhat jaded >with today's special effects, but I felt like I was listening to a >78rpm record at 33rpm. Some of the scenes felt a lot like the >first Star Trek movie when they spent about 20 minutes panning the >Enterprise. I just kept thinking "get on with it already." This comparison is not very fair to 2001. ST:TMP's slow pan was a self-indulgent celebration of the relaunching of the Enterprise after all those years. In contrast, the slowness in 2001 was essential, and meant to be enjoyed directly, not rushed for the sake of action or plot. Have you ever been to a classical music concert? I think you've been jaded by more than just today's special effects. Too many top 40 hits, perhaps? (Note--I'm not saying classical music is inherently superior to pop- ular music or anything like that. Just that they are different, and have different tempos, and judging the one in terms of the other is useless.) Let's consider: The docking scene, with Strauss' "Blue Danube" in the background, is techno-ballet. In one cut, Kubrick/Clarke have shown how man's tools have evolved from crude bones to exceedingly complex systems that can serve--even when incomplete--as both tool and art. This is an impor- tant thematic point, since for all our wonderful progress as a species over the eons, we are shown in the film as still being petty little nothings. And on the Jupiter mission, we get the slow jogging and tour of the ship accompanied by [damn, what was that beautiful melancholy music? I think my mind is going...]. The isolation and loneliness of Dave and Frank-- and Hal?--are painted very lovingly for us, a frame at a time. This is more than just the two or three main characters, mind you, but our whole species that suffers from "the world as my occupation, my niche, my non- contact, my anomie"--compare with Star-Child. I've seen the movie two or three dozen times at least over the years, including one showing in a private little theatre that seats ten with a megarich sound system. I've never once felt an ounce of impatience. 2001 is meant to enrapture, not just entertain. Matthew P Wiener Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 22:57:53 GMT From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic) Subject: Re: Good SF Movies KGOODMAN@SMITH.BITNET writes: >Not surprisingly, several people have mentioned 2001 for the Good >SF movie list. While I thought that it was a very good story, >(except the ending is a little "cosmic" for my tastes), I thought >the movie was incredibly slow. Granted, I may be somewhat jaded >with today's special effects, but I felt like I was listening to a >78rpm record at 33rpm. Some of the scenes felt a lot like the >first Star Trek movie when they spent about 20 minutes panning the >Enterprise. I just kept thinking "get on with it already." > [...] As some people have already pointed out, you are probably `spoiled' by Star Wars, Galactica & Co. These are fast-paced *action* movies, the dramaturgic equivalent of (excuse me) cop-and-robber stories. They succeed if the viewer is drawn into the *action* and can't escape until the end because (s)he *wants to know what happens*, and also because (s)he *identifies with heroes* (and feels good about it). 2001, on the other hand, is a completely different brand of movie. It concentrates almost completely on creating a *mood*, a *feeling*. Action, as far as it's in there at all, is not really essential to its effect. (The desert scenes of *Lawrence of Arabia* come to my mind for comparison.) The idea is to draw you into a certain state of mind, put you into a *mood* and let you in some way *experience* space rather than *telling* you about it. That's why 2001 is *much* better in large cinemas with good sound equipment - on a TV screen it's outright wimpy. One thing: 2001 gives a MUCH more realistic impression about space travel than, say, Star Wars. Interplanetary space is LOTS of (largely) empty space between the interesting spots. Interplanetary travel is *long* and *lonely*. In fact, being on such a voyage, BOREDOM is certainly one of the main problems. I think that 2001 is a real success for giving a realistic impression of an interplanetary voyage. Actually, so far it's the best one I have ever seen (no, experienced!). I believe that this creates the magic of 2001, the reason why many people (including me) go and see it again and again... because there's no plot to be spoiled; the mood comes again, even better than before. Of course, tie-fighters making U-turns on the spot and dodging asteroids and enemy fire are much more exciting. Nothing against Star Wars (I enjoyed it, too, as an archetypical fantasy saga). It just appeals to rather different instincts in us, and if you go into a cinema expecting the wrong thing, you're virtually certain to be disappointed. Try to see 2001 again in a LARGE cinema, and try to *give yourself up* to the (physical and mental) images that Kubrick creates. Don't *think*, *feel*. Maybe you'll like it. perry@inteloa.intel.com ...!tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry ...!verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 21:04:45 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!hobie@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies There is a movie which I saw back in Cretaceous times that I really enjoyed but I have forgotten the title. A spaceship (actually I think there were two, one rescueing the crew of a first) lands on a planet which bears evidence of a "dead" civilization. They bury dead crewmembers from the first ship but later find that the graves are empty. It turns out that there are sentient aliens which exist as "energy beings" (you know the type, fuzzy balls that float in the air) which have re-animated the corpses. Is this movie "Angry Red Planet"? How about "Fuzzy Energy Beings that Wake the Dead" or "The Not-So-Dead Civilization"? Btw, this is an old movie, maybe '50s or '60s. Please reply via mail if you remember this one. Hobie Orris SoftQuad Inc. Toronto, Ont. {ihnp4|decvax}!utzoo!sq!hobie ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 8 May 1987 08:31:58-PDT From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Bad Science Fiction Movies In issue #201, I was surprised to see Supergirl lumped into someone's list of the worst science fiction movies, along with Plan 9, Captain America, Mars Needs Women, and other real bow-wows. Barbarella was in that list, too. I guess I have to disagree with anyone placing all these movies into the same category. Of course, the other movies are real dreck, with no redeemable quality except their absurdity. But I found Supergirl to be mildly interesting. After watching it twice, I began to appreciate it better, especially the evil ladies. I kind of liked the plot, although I agree it is simplistic and predictable, I just do not think it compares with Plan 9. Barbarella also has some merit ({8^o). It has the most attractive shots of Jane Fonda, ever (including her exercise cassettes). The spoof was absorbing and the '60s nostalgia is authentic. (Yes, I'm dating myself here). Instead, replace these two entries in that list with some really awful movies, like The Man With Two Heads and The Invisible Woman (really STUPID). Mary ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 00:00:51 GMT From: langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu (John E. Langbein) Subject: Re: sf movies Hi. I thoght I would put my $2,000.02 worth in and tell you two of the WORST movies, and one that was just plain BAD!! 1- ALL TIME WORST - The Thing with Two Heads starring Rosie Grear and Ray Miland. Ray Miland perfects this way to transplant heads, and Rosie Grear, instead of being executed, becomes his body. It was just plain BAD!!!!! Watch it and judge for yourselves. 2- All Time Worst (If considered SF, tops the Above!!!)- Gator. It is about a big alligator. Real Bad Stuff!!! 3- Bad Movie - The Car. About a Car that is posessed and kills people. Probably in the top 10 all time worst SF movies. And Now for my favorite: 2001 & 2010: a classic followed by another classic, but I think 2010 was influenced too much by modern day tastes, and went too fast. It definitely was much more fast paced than 2001. But then again, It still was one of the best, so why complain. John Langbein ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 15:01:47 GMT From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) Subject: Re: Bad Science Fiction Movies marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes: >In issue #201, I was surprised to see Supergirl lumped into >someone's list of the worst science fiction movies, along with Plan >9, Captain...no redeemable quality except their absurdity. But I >found Supergirl to be mildly interesting. After watching it twice, >I began to appreciate it better, especially the evil ladies. I >kind of liked the plot, although I agree it is simplistic and >predictable, I just do not think it compares with Plan 9. I'd agree with you on this one - I thought Supergirl was a well done, if superficial, release, and in no way compares with the worst [although I haven't seen Plan 9]. I think Supergirl was done extremely well, especially considering the givens. Supergirl is a so-so movie made very well, while I'll guess that Plan 9 is a terrible movie, made poorly. A fiction writing friend's advice comes to mind - it's not important to have the best or most original plot, as long as you write it well. Similarly, I don't think that any of the people who are just now discovering that Star Wars was not wholly original [horrors!] would be well supported in calling that film a poor one. Dan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 12 May 87 1026-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #221 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 12 May 87 1026-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #221 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 221 Today's Topics: Books - Martin (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 May 87 14:32:39 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@RUTGERS.EDU (Royal White) Subject: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes) Has anyone out there been reading the George R. R. Martin books called WILD CARDS? They're SF stories about superheroes, their beginnings, their exploits, and their downfalls. Martin is the editor of the book of short stories and Roger Zelazny is one contributor. Books I and II are available now. Book III is due out later this year. The stories are told in rough chronological order starting in the mid-1940's. Book I is very depressing at times. Just think McCarthy-era. Book II is more upbeat, sort of. The books are written more like the DARK KNIGHT universe than say the pre-Crisis Superman universe. The heroes in the books don't directly relate to any superheroes of DC or Marvel. But there is a Dr. Strange type character and Green Arrow type character. Royal White Jr. seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite work: 703-749-2384 ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 13:02:56 GMT From: rochester!ritcv!mcm2434@RUTGERS.EDU (Martin Maenza) Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes) I too have read Wild Cards and the second book, Aces High. It's a very very enjoyable series for anyone who enjoys reading comic books and superhero exploits. The relative concept behind the project was that during World War II, something happened (I won't say what as to spoil it for those who haven't read the series) that would cause the development of super-powered beings. Those with no powers and no deformaties are known as Aces, those with deformaties are known as Jokers. (Note: The third book in the series is called "Jokers Wild" and is due late summer or early fall.) Although each book contains eight to ten short stories by various authors, they all are tied in some way or form. Authors refer to events in other authors' stories and other author's characters. Roger Zelazny used his character Croyd in both books, so there is a sense of continuity between books as well as stories. Sometimes it is evident that you are reading a different author (due to writing styles and such), but most of the time it reads like a well continued story line. Once again, I would recommend the series whole heartedly (as would other friends of mine who have read it). Check it out. ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 16:52:10 GMT From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes) I'd also recommend the WILD CARDS books, but as good junk reading, and not much else (gee! just like comics!). Royal White thought their "universe" resembled DARK KNIGHT's; I disagree. WILD CARDS reminds me more of WATCHMEN and X-MEN (especially some of Claremont's darker and/or future tales) than anything else. The Zelazny stories were OK, not great. Lewis Shiner, whom I believe is considered a "cyberpunk" author, did some very un-cyberpunk tales. I liked George R.R. Martin's stories best (he's also the editor, so the books are found under his name). I will be buying the 3rd volume. In the 2nd volume, there's a story by a "Walt Simons". Common enough name, I suppose, but considering the topic of the books, could this actually be Walt Simonson? (I couldn't tell from the story's style, which was unremarkable, but the story itself worked well.) Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 16:19:48 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes) rwhite@netxcom.UUCP (Royal White) writes: >Has anyone out there been reading the George R. R. Martin books >called WILD CARDS? Yeah. Nice idea, decent execution. Martin is one of the better anthology editors out there these days. For those that don't know, the story starts in the late 40's when an alien civilization sprays a 'wild card' virus on new York city. About 90% of the population is immune; of those that are left, about 90% dies, and the rest get random mutations -- some of them beneficial (the Aces) most of them not (the Jokers). The first book looks at the time from the start of the Wild Card era to the 70's. The McCarthy era is against mutants, not communists. It looks at Vietnam and the peace movement (they send out mutants to die in vietnam instead of normal folks). It generally looks at recent modern U.S. history (with a rather scathing (justifiably so (as an aside, how deeply can I nest these perenthetical thoughts before people start cringing?))) by bringing forward a new racial group and showing how various times would deal with them. It IS rather depressing, but it is strongly rooted in superhero comics (the first story of the first book is an homage to Airboy, well executed) as well as the more recent mutant series. This is a book most comic folks would love, and would also be a good book for SF readers who don't read comics. The second book is a lot weaker, not because the writing is worse but because it simply can't sustain the emotional impact of the first. It is primarily about Aces. The third book will be about the Jokers. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 16:45:31 GMT From: hippo!eric@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Bergan) Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes) rwhite@netxcom.UUCP (Royal White) writes: > Has anyone out there been reading the George R. R. Martin books > called WILD CARDS? > > Book I is very depressing at times. Just think McCarthy-era. Book > II is more upbeat, sorta. > > The books are written more like the DARK KNIGHT universe than say > the pre-Crisis Superman universe. Actually, I think they are more like Watchmen than anything else. I found Book I quit good (Book I is titled "Wild Cards"). I didn't enjoy Book II (titled "Aces High") quite as much, since the BEM plot didn't do much for me (although at least the were realistic about the level of death and destruction your typicall BEM invasion would cause). The central idea was that a virus was released in the 1940's by an alien race that effected a large percentage of the population. Of those effected, about 1 in 10 gained "super" powers and became "Aces". The other 9 in 10 suffered various detrimental side effects, and became "Jokers". Both groups are traced from their formation up through the present. The "Aces" go through McCarthy-era trials and disgrace. The "Jokers" end up in ghettos, and rioting for equal rights. The first book pretty much tried to establish the lead players and events. The second book focused primarily on the "Aces". There were hints that something was brewing in the Joker community in Book II, and not surprisingly Book III will be titled "Jokers Wild". If you enjoy either Thieve's World type collections, comic books, or alternate history stories, I would recommend reading Book I. After that, decide if Book II will interest you or not. BTW, despite being a Zelazny fan, I found the two Zelazny stories to be some of his worst writing, and certainly some of the weakest stories in the books. eric ...!ptsfa!hippo!eric ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 22:01:17 GMT From: uwvax!uwmacc!rick@RUTGERS.EDU (the absurdist) Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes) eric@hippo.UUCP (Eric Bergan) writes: > I found Book I quit good (Book I is titled "Wild Cards"). I >didn't enjoy Book II (titled "Aces High") quite as much, since the >BEM plot didn't do much for me Book 1 covers from the 1940s to now; it introduces a lot of characters and tries to show how a post WWII world would have looked with superpowered types; persecution of "aces" instead of "Reds", for example. As such, it has a rather disjointed feel. Some stories could stand on their own quite well; others are primarily of interest because they are in the anthology. Parts are depressing: those times include some very unhappy ones in American history. Book II is more upbeat, in general. More importantly, since it is focussed in the contemporary scene (some flashbacks, but almost all mid-80s), it is much less disjointed than Book I. The BEM plot along with other plot threads give a common sense of where the story is going; so I found the sense that "this must be a new author" intruding less and less as chapter led to chapter. >BTW, despite being a Zelazny fan, I found the two Zelazny stories >to be some of his worst writing... Oh, hardly! Zelazny can be much worse than this: try an tell me what "RoadMarks" was about, for example. Z's stories here are not his best, but they certainly are better than many of the plotless things he's turned out lately. (By the way, I liked Roadmarks, and in fact everything of his I've read: its just that some stories leave me feeling like I'm reading the equivalent of Book of Kells illumination being used to illuminate a shopping list. His Wild Cards stories, on the other hand, are not classics, but are readable and memorable. Rick Keir UWisc - Madison {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!rick ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 20:39:28 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!andy@RUTGERS.EDU (Andy Finkel) Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes) rwhite@netxcom.UUCP (Royal White) writes: >Has anyone out there been reading the George R. R. Martin books >called WILD CARDS? Book I is very depressing at times. Just think >McCarthy-era. The most annoying thing about book 1 was that it makes the assumption that the addition of 'wild card' powers would not make a bit of difference to world history...it still comes out the same. >Book II is more upbeat, sorta. > >The books are written more like the DARK KNIGHT universe than say >the pre-Crisis Superman universe. The heroes in the books don't >directly relate to any superheroes of DC or Marvel. They seem to have gone further afield for their inspiration. For example, Dr. Tachyon is a (very) thinly disguised Dr Who. Characters are pretty weak. Very few of the wild-carded people seem to have gone insane. (functionally or otherwise) And, somewhere, they've found a source of real evil people. Unlike most people in the 'real' world, they've actually got people who know they're evil, enjoy being evil, etc. No self-justification, no differing viewpoints, etc. Maybe that's how insanity is represented. Oh, well, the second book was better than the first. And both are moderately amusing. andy finkel Commodore/Amiga {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy pyramid!amiga!andy ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 13:24:41 GMT From: rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran) Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes) eric@hippo.UUCP (Eric Bergan) writes: >rwhite@netxcom.UUCP (Royal White) writes: >> Has anyone out there been reading the George R. R. Martin books >> called WILD CARDS? > >The central idea was that a virus was released in the >1940's by an alien race that effected a large percentage of the >population. Of those effected, about 1 in 10 gained "super" powers >and became "Aces". The other 9 in 10 suffered various detrimental >side effects, and became "Jokers". Both groups are traced from >their formation up through the present. The "Aces" go through >McCarthy-era trials and disgrace. The "Jokers" end up in ghettos, >and rioting for equal rights. If you read the line a little further, 90 per 100 have a fatal conversion; in the first story after the release, 'The Sleeper', there is mention made of all the people coming apart in various grotesque fashions. Of the 10 who don't 'draw the black queen', 9 end up as jokers, and only one in a hundred 'draw an ace'. Also, they make note of the fact that exposure to the virus was more limited geographically; mainly the NYC area, where the battle occurred, and from there carried by ship, plane, etc. to some small number of major foreign cities, typically trade centers/ports. Given that 90% of those exposed DIE, they didn't want to repopulate the planet with affected types. Bob Halloran UUCP: rutgers!mtune!rkh Internet: rkh@mtune.ATT.COM DDD: (201)251-7514 eve ET USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857 ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 18:37:30 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!andy@RUTGERS.EDU (Andy Finkel) Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes) >andy@cbmvax (Andy Finkel) writes: >>The most annoying thing about book 1 was that it makes the >>assumption that the addition of 'wild card' powers would not make >>a bit of difference to world history...it still comes out the >>same. > >I don't understand. Why does this matter in the least? Sorry if I wasn't clear... it gave me the impression that the writers/editors of the series had decided that the series really starts with the current day; nothing important could happen before this; the first book is simply a means of setting the stage. Now that (in book 2) we're up to modern times, the writers are allowed to change history, and have the powers make a difference. This is what bothered me. To have it come out the way that it did says that the "wild card powers" left their possesors with no more effective means of striking back than those accused in the 50's in our world. Why wasn't there, for example a rash of heart attacks on the most aggressive of the mutant (pardon me, wild card) haters ? Blackball an ace ? Be serious! There was no reason for the situation to happen the same way, and several reasons for things to be different. No one struck out at the Congressional investigators. No one. And yet, most had the power to do so. >Furthermore, I am completely confused by the very existence of this >com- plaint. The book announces that it plans to follow the >superhero comic genre, and then indeed it follows the superhero >comic genre. For this you get annoyed???? I don't get >it...somebody explain it to me! Watchmen, Miracleman, Dark Knight, Swamp Thing, etc. have demonstrated to me what can be done with the 'comic book' genre, if the writer is willing to work a bit. I was hoping for something more on those lines. Can you blame me ? >Notice that I'm befuddled on two distinct levels. First, just what >is wrong, as a hook to hang a book on, with the question, "What if >the world were just like ours, only different somehow?"? And >second, if you only like certain kinds of genres, why are >criticizing it for not being the kind of genre that you like? I >generally don't like romances, for exam- ple, but I don't criticize >them for not being spy thrillers. I'm just saying that I found the path they choose the world to follow was a) not especially logical, assuming that the base world was populated by individuals like ours, and b) the less interesting path I like comics; but a series like 'Wild Cards' could be more than just an average superhero comic. >>And, somewhere, they've found a source of real evil people. >>Unlike most people in the 'real' world, they've actually got >>people who know they're evil, enjoy being evil, etc. No >>self-justification, no differing viewpoints, etc. > >Again, this is routine comic book genre stuff. Sometimes it's >overdone, but sometimes it's just perfect. I wouldn't want it any >other way. Personal taste. I has hoping for something other than Thieves' World crossed with mutant mania. I want the characters to have human feelings, reasons for the actions they take (or at least rationalizations). andy finkel Commodore/Amiga {ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 12 May 87 1036-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #222 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 12 May 87 1036-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #222 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 222 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (13 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1987 09:51 PDT From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: GOOD sf/ST I From: seismo!utai!hub.toronto.edu!ping@RUTGERS.EDU >> No one has mentioned THE TERMINATOR. I thougt it was one of >> the best SF movies of this decade... Also I would include ST II, >> and only ST II in my list (not I, not III, and not IV). > >FINALLY someone has mentioned an ST movie. I thought ST II was a >great movie too, but ST I is by far the best -- it is in the real >Star Trek spirit. ...if you happen to think that being long-winded, boring, and overly pretentious is in the "Star Trek spirit". Robert Wise did a great job on "The Day the Earth Stood Still", and "The Andromeda Strain", but he blew it on this one. Nicholas Meyer (ST II) is the only GOOD director to work on any of the Star Trek films. He's the only one whose sense of timing, action and pacing was really true to the show. I mean, the special effects shots in ST I took up OVER 25% OF THE FILM (a conservative estimate to be sure). Nimoy did a much better job on IV than he did on III, but I still saw much room for improvement. Richard Smith Cal St. Poly, Pomona BITNET: CADS079@CALSTATE ARPA: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 13:30:45 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey Subject: Star Trek (Call me Mister) On the subject of courtesy titles ("Mister," "Miss," etc.) and Star Fleet personnel: Spock addressed Uhura as "Miss" at least once in the first season (sorry, my memory for episode titles isn't what it used to be): "Miss Uhura, Vulcan has no moon." "I'm not at all surprised, Mr. Spock." (This is from a conversation on the bridge while they were both on duty.) I believe Kirk and perhaps even McCoy also addressed Uhura as "Miss" at some point, but I defer to those who have seen reruns more recently than I. Based on a conversation between Leila Kalomi and Spock, in which he tells her that she couldn't pronounce his "other name," I got the impression that "Spock" is more what Kirk would consider a given (first) name than a family (or Vulcan clan) name. Perhaps this is why he is addressed as "Mister." Tangentially, my roommate offers the following explanation of why he could never take K/S fiction seriously. He pictures a passionate love scene between Kirk and Spock: "Oh, James!" "Oh, Mister!" (This is a *JOKE*, people, so no flames to either me or my roommate!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 13:32 EDT From: (Thomas A. Kuchar) Subject: More on ST This letter is in response to V12 #179 of SF Lovers digest. I get a big kick out you people arguing over the fine points of trivia in science fiction. It gets really ridiculous at times. In response to people's arguments over `Mister' Saavik (who indeed wears a Lt.'s rank in all 3 films), I just took it as being a generic title used for every one, regardless of sex or planetary origin. If you note from Star Trek II and on, Spock is intermittently referred to as Mr. Spock (which trekkies and non-trekkies alike have and will continue to refer as) and Capt.Spock. As to using the universal translator in Star Trek IV, I have the perfect solution as to it absence --- the writers (Nimoy et.al.) forgot about it. They, not being so well versed in trivia as some of us, are ignorant of such fine details. One can notice throughout all the movies such a lack of continuity with the original series. But what disturbs me more about STIV is this time travel stuff. The Earth that Kirk and company visited in 1986 has no relation to the Earth that the TV series speculated would exist. In the episode `Space Seed' A eugenics war is about to occur in ten years, yet there is no hint of such a war -- only the current struggle between the US and USSR. In 1986 Kahn should be walking around trying at least to acquire a base of operations in preparation for the the war. (He should be at least 25 by now!) Without Kahn in 1986 - there's no `Space Seed', no `Wrath of Kahn', no death of Spock, no `Search for Spock', no Kirk mutiny. Major logical flaw!! Does anybody agree? Also Kirk's demotion to Capt. and giving him a new ship is somewhat ludicrous. If it weren't, Oliver North would be a major in the Marines right now and in charge of the State Dept. I realized Kirk's reassignment was inevitable. Anyway is three captains aboard the Enterprise enough? (Kirk, Spock, and Scotty - remember he was promoted in STIII and was acquitted of mutiny in STIV, so he's a capt. as well.) Tom Kuchar Boston University KUCHAR@BUASTA ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 87 01:50:47 GMT From: cbmvax!vu-vlsi!hvrunix!sdorn@RUTGERS.EDU (Sherman Dorn) Subject: Re: Startrek Loose End dick@cs.vu.nl (Dick Grune) writes: > duplicate the research and to be in constant danger! Now here's a > Damsel in Distress, if there ever was one, dragons all around, > people on the next planet to benevolent civilized societies, who > will Calling Carol Marcus (in ST IV) a Damsel in Distress . . . Oh, I don't feel like flaming this, but Mr. Grune please think carefully about that. While the TV series was sexist because of the time (1960's), I'd hope the movies are not. (Unfortunately, Kirk is still an ass most of the time, but on the whole the movies II - IV are generally much better than _Star Trek_. Grune continues: > who's going to rescue her? He'll not only have to rescue her, but > also have to put the knowledge that Genesis can exist back into > the box (or defuse the knowledge, my preferred option). And not > through time Oh, please! Man rescues woman, conquers technology, and saves the universe. I hope ST V thinks of something more interesting. Sherman Dorn Haverford College ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Apr 87 13:31 EDT From: Subject: STAR TREK - The Next Generation Great stuff you guys talk about. I think you're being too judgemental as far as the new ST though. Wait and see before you start criticize. Most of the show has yet to be decided on. One piece of info that I've found out completely by accident. A friend of mine has an uncle who's a property master at Paramount. He's been trying to find out what's going on on the stages where the new Enterprise is, but security is really tight. But he did find out that the casting director is using another soundstage for auditions. This guy said he saw the man who played Remington Steele (Pierce Brosnan is the actor's name, I think) in a Star Trek Uniform -- one like they wore in the first movie. I think he's going to be the new first officer. He seems to fit the physical description of that people having been writing about on the network. Great casting, I think. Danial D. Patterson GALAXY@BUASTA ------------------------------ Date: Sat 2 May 87 00:43:36-CDT From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: re: Whalespeak From: (Kaile Goodman) > In ST4(Whales etc.), why the hell didn't they just use their >magic universal translator to interpret the probe's probing? ... >If the UT could be made to communicate with a gaseous cloud >("Metamorphosis") that didn't even appear to have *LANGUAGE*, >surely it could also be made to speak whalespeak (whalish? >whalese?). The Star Trek novel "The Tears of the Singers" by Melinda Snodgrass used the same premise. In this book the explanation was that the universal translator produced "gibberish" because parts of the Singers' "song" was ultrasonic, and not picked up by the translator. Early on in the book, Spock runs a tape of the song thru the computer and it comes up with three species which produced similar sounds. Among them was the "now extinct humpback whales of Earth". bill ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sat 2 May 87 01:03:32-CDT From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: more whalespeak From: Glenn Hyman >Did anyone ever stop to think that the reason the universal >translator didn't work for one major reason. The probe wasn't >talking to us, it was talking to the whales in every case the >translators have been used the subjects were talking directly to >the persons with the translators. Well?????????? FLAME ON!!!!! Well NO..... The point of the stupid things is that they can TRANSLATE, no? Whether or *not* they were talking to us... If you tell me you never overheard anything you weren't supposed to hear that was spoken obviously cryptically, yet made perfect sense to the paranoid human mind, then i'll call you a liar... FLAME ON!!! bill ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 87 14:38:11 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: More on ST From: (Thomas A. Kuchar) > But what disturbs me more about STIV is this time travel stuff. > The Earth that Kirk and company visited in 1986 has no relation to > the Earth that the TV series speculated would exist. In the > episode `Space Seed' A eugenics war is about to occur in ten > years, yet there is no hint of such a war -- only the current > struggle between the US and USSR. In 1986 Kahn should be walking > around trying at least to acquire a base of operations in > preparation for the the war. (He should be at least 25 by now!) > Without Kahn in 1986 - there's no `Space Seed', no `Wrath of > Kahn', no death of Spock, no `Search for Spock', no Kirk mutiny. > Major logical flaw!! Does anybody agree? Not in the least. Just because no mention is made of Khan [note spelling] in present-day in STAR TREK IV, he doesn't exist? Yes, he's there somewhere in Asia, building his power base, waiting till the time is right to start his conquest. But that's totally irrelevant to the film's story. They could have had a random tv broadcast or newspaper mention Khan by name in relation to some event, but that would have been totally gratuitous, nothing more than a "nudge nudege wink wink" aimed at the Trekkies in the audience. There was no reason within the context of the story that we should've been given a detailed rundown of the complete geopolitical situation. However, I will grant you that there doesn't seem to be any indication in the film that present-day Earth is advanced enough for a planet-wide eugenics program to be taking place (Khan was supposed to have been a product of such a program, so it would have had to be started no later than the early 70's). It would have been more consistent for present-day ST Earth to be more advanced than our own in the biological sciences. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 12:14:29 GMT From: dick@cs.vu.nl (Dick Grune) Subject: Re: Startrek Loose End sdorn@hvrunix.UUCP (Sherman Dorn) writes: >dick@cs.vu.nl (Dick Grune) writes: >> Damsel in Distress, if there ever was one, dragons all around, > >Calling Carol Marcus (in ST IV) a Damsel in Distress . . . Oh, I >don't feel like flaming this, but Mr. Grune please ... Yes, you're right; the language is too flowery, and so is the underlying thinking. Nevertheless the danger to C.M. is real and not a figment of my medieval mind. >> who's going to rescue her? He'll not only have to rescue her, >> but also have to put the knowledge that Genesis can exist back >> into the box (or defuse the knowledge, my preferred option). And >> not through time > >Oh, please! Man rescues woman, conquers technology, and saves >the universe. I hope ST V thinks of something more interesting. Sounds indeed corny, put that way. The formulation is sexist; I should have said: They'll not only ..., etc. I still think she will need help to deal with the Enemy, and the crew of the Enterprise A have shown they can give plenty of that. And putting the knowledge back into the box will take the ingenuity of crew and Dr. C.M. together. Might still be a story. Dick Grune Vrije Universiteit de Boelelaan 1081 1081 HV Amsterdam the Netherlands dick@cs.vu.nl ...!mcvax!vu44!dick ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 87 02:15:27 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!canisius!macchia@RUTGERS.EDU (Mad Man) Subject: Re: More on ST KUCHAR@BUASTA.BITNET writes: > Anyway is three captains aboard the Enterprise enough? (Kirk, > Spock, and Scotty - remember he was promoted in STIII and was > acquitted of mutiny in STIV, so he's a capt. as well.) Correction, There are four captains aboard the Enterprise ! (Kirk,Spock, Scotty, AND Sulu) This is brought up many times in the book STIV:TVH. Nick Macchia Canisius College 2001 Main St. Buffalo,NY 14208 VOICE: (716) 876-6298 UUCP: {decvax|watmath|allegra|rocksvax}!sunybcs!canisius!macchia ...!ames!canisius!macchia ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 87 13:26:20 GMT From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) Subject: STIV - The Voyage Home I have only recently seen the film, and even more recently the book, so my apologies for entering the Great Translator Debate a bit late. To all those who say "Why didn't they use the Universal Translator?", the reply is that, in the book by Vonda N. Macintyre at least, the U.S.S. Saratoga did attempt to use the translator. The translator overloaded. The probe, or "traveler" as it calls itself in the book, could not tell tell the difference between radio emissions and other electromagnetic emissions, such as light and heat from stars. It treated them all the same : it drained them. It recognised no life associated with them. What I want to know is, how did it receive the whales' songs? Sound cannot travel through the vacuum of space. Telepathy perhaps? Adrian Hurt JANET: adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian ARPA: adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 87 20:49:40 EDT From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa Subject: Beaming with your cloaking device plugged-in. If I recall from when Kirk originally stole the device from the Romulans, the main problem with the cloaking device was the power drain. Since most forms of power (now known) propagate under the inverse-square law, one can reasonably expect the short ranges involved in STIV to favorably affect the amount of power needed to operate the transporter. Less distance implies less power drain. Soooo... the impulse engines could reasonably provide power for cloaking AND transporting while the bird was grounded. Previous examples had the bad guys either beaming up past the atmosphere (as a minimum) or trying to cloak, shoot, and perform battle manuevers at Warp speed-- all of which should just KILL one's gas mileage. I have to agree whole-heartedly with the remark about their luck and the lack of amateur athletes trying the infamous line-drive- thru-the-landing-gear stunt. Oh well-- enjoyed it anyway! Oh yes, one loose end to tie up before it strangles me. When the whales were beamed up, 1) they were relatively close to the surface, and 2) with the main drive repaired, there could reasonbly have been much more power available than with impulse power-- enough to sustain cloaking, hovering, and a *short* transport. (Or did they beam in the whales while scaring the whalers?) Regards, Dave Wegener 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 12 May 87 1057-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #223 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 12 May 87 1057-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #223 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 223 Today's Topics: Books - E.E. Doc Smith (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 May 87 15:57:35 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: The Lensman Series ltsmith@mitre.ARPA writes about FIRST LENSMAN, the second book of E. E. 'Doc' Smith's LENSMAN series: >IT WAS AWFUL!! TRULY AWFUL!!! > >I found it trite, belittling, patronizing to women, and generally >poorly done in terms of character/story development. I literally >had to force myself to finish it, which I only did because so many >people have spoken so well of it over the years. Heaven alone knows >why.... Yes, the series is sexist, wooden, and a scientific travesty... but it was some of the first sf I read, and it does have a certain appeal. If it were written now it would be horrible, but being forty or so years old, I can make allowances for it. (It is that old, not me...) Also, anyone who is a space-opera fan really should read it just for a sense of the development of the sub-genre. 'Doc' Smith was one of the first and best (well, subjective judgment... Sheri would disagree), and you just don't get more space-operaish than this. The Lensmen are the heroes of the whole Galactice race, Pursuing thieves and villians throughout interstellar space... The Eichmil roar, the zwilniks flee, the blast-beams fly apace, As ships and plot go down the tubes at an amazing pace. [filksong verse reconstructed (incorrectly) from memory] Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 19:13:43 GMT From: eppstein@tom.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) Subject: The Lensman Series Shoshanna Green writes about E.E. 'Doc' Smith's Lensman series: > Yes, the series is sexist, wooden, and a scientific travesty... > > but it was some of the first sf I read, and it does have a certain > appeal. If it were written now it would be horrible, but being > forty or so years old, I can make allowances for it. (It is that > old, not me...) But James Schmitz wrote Agent of Vega almost forty years ago (I remember copyright dates of 1949 or so, although the stories were not collected into a book until the early 1960s), and these stories have none of the deficiencies you mention. I don't remember when his other stuff such as the Telzey stories was written, but it was also a long time ago. So anyway I am less inclined to excuse other authors such as Smith, since we have here a proof that those times were not as unenlightened as those of us who came later (my copy of Agent of Vega is older than me) might think. David Eppstein eppstein@cs.columbia.edu Columbia U. Computer Science Dept. ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 19:43:10 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series LT Sheri Smith USN : >found book number TWO...(flame on!!!) IT WAS AWFUL!! ...I found it >trite, belittling, patronizing to women, and generally poorly done >in terms of character/story development... Now, I have nothing >against "older" SF, and can happily suspend my current level of >technical knowledge and read an out of date story for the story's >sake... You would have done better to start with "Triplanetary", which is devoted to stage setting. However, you would not have found it substantively different. Clearly you *do* have something against "older" science fiction, if you think that older science fiction should be modern science fiction with vacuum tubes instead of semiconductors. To enjoy the science fiction of half a century ago you have to suspend not just your technological prejudices (the Lensmen books haven't done too badly there, anyhow) but your literary and social ones as well. There is a great difference between the use of a trite plot device and the use of the same device back when it was fresh. There are even greater differences between now and half a century ago in our myths: we expect much different things of our heroes and our villains. Patronizing to women? For his time, Smith's women are very strong. More generally a point was made (by Heinlein, I believe) that much of the modern objection to Smith's treatment of women is grounded in the smug assumption that the mores of the thirtieth century will resemble the enlightened mores of the 1980's rather than the benighted mores of the 1920's. The idea becomes ludicrous when expressed that way, doesn't it? I'll agree that the Lensmen series is not finely polished literature, that the characterization is minimal, the plot development often crude. Indeed, it reads like a pulp, doesn't it? It also has the besetting weakness of space-opera: it has to compensate for these lacks by exponentially increasing the size and strength of the enemy in each installment. But it's a fun read. It's got a scope we don't believe in any more. It pioneered much of what today is 'trite' in science fiction. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 01:48:37 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series I believe the E.E. Smith exercise is also semiannual... 8-) BUT: YES (read my lips 8-), IT IS FAIRLY SEXIST IN PLACES, AND IS IN FACT SOMEWHAT ANACHRONISTIC FOR THE PRESENT DAY. So is _Don Quixote de La Mancha_. No, to be fair, that isn't a valid comparison on my part- DQdLM is somewhat older than Lensman, and from a different culture. The women in the series aren't neccessarily weak. They are, however, subordinate to the men, and are weaker than their perfect mate (or equally powerful, at best.) But by the same token, they are vastly more powerful in terms of mind and authority than the majority of the planets (male and female populations) they encounter, unless the planet is more powerful than Earth.... which is quickly corrected by the Earthers gaining the knowledge, ability, tools, etc.... Space Opera is the genre. I'm not claiming that it is fine literature. (I despise a fair amount of "fine literature", but that doesn't matter here 8-) But it IS a fairly good series as entertainment, considering its age and format. These are books that were pulps once, at least in spirit, and sometimes in body. I've read the series, as well as the "Skylark" series, and a couple of his books that fit the same format as Lensman, but are slightly different in setting. I read them once in a while, if I'm hard up for books. They failed to provoke any realy "new" thought... I wonder why? Perhaps because modern SF has drawn those thoughts, put them in different forms, added to them, etc...? Somehow the books seemed familiar... 8-) Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 87 08:37 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: The Lensman Series I had a similar experience--I don't remember which book I read, or even anything about it, but I was amazed that something so awful could be so highly regarded. I tried to get some fans to explain it to me, and finally decided that the books included some original ideas, appearing for the first time in SF, that were later picked up and used in GOOD stories. So, for people who prefer "this-was-the-first-time" to "good" (generally the same types who blast SW and ST for stealing ideas from elsewhere) the Lensmen series is a classic. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 16:48:02 GMT From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: > If it were written now it would be horrible, but being forty or so >years old, I can make allowances for it. (It is that old, not >me...) Is it really only 40 years old? I thought it was more like 50 years old. I don't have copies of the books handy; anybody want to check copyright dates? I think _Galactic Patrol_ is the oldest. I thought it was written in 1930 - 1935 or so. I don't really remember this well, though. Bob Myers myers@tybalt.caltech.edu seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 17:58:26 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #200 The Lensman Series From: Hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.COM Sheri, Sorry you didn't like one of the perennial occupants of the booksellers shelves. Look at the dates on the Lensman books; they are 40 to 50 years old. Of course they are: AWFUL!! TRULY AWFUL!!! trite belittling patronizing to women poorly done in terms of character/story development yet ...so many people have spoken so well of it over the years Certainly pre-ERA. I doubt Doc Smith was looking to sell to the female audience, or as great lit., either. These stories were pulp magazine material, no more. They were much more original then. This is SPACE OPERA! Like "Victory at Sea". Not many women or much character developement there either. Just a big grand shoot 'em up. I disagree about story developement. If there is any strength to the series, it is the consistency of the plot unfolding. The Lensmen Stories are: Triplanetary First Lensman Galactic Patrol Grey Lensman Second-Stage Lensman Children of the Lens I would read Galactic Patrol first; Triplanetary is really several short storys, and First Lensman is a bit dry. Grey Lensman is the best adventure yarn of the lot, and Second-Stage Lensman produces the only female Lensman, guess who. Children of the Lens ends things, so read them in this order: Galactic Patrol Grey Lensman Second-Stage Lensman Triplanetary First Lensman Children of the Lens If you didn't (or don't) like the Lensmen series, that is just fine. Everybody doesn't have to. I suspect many people like EES books because of his style. No adventure too big. Read SKYLARK DuQUESNE, as much as you can, and see. Clark H. ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 20:00:38 GMT From: motown!bunker!hjg@RUTGERS.EDU (Harry J. Gross) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series From: LT Sheri Smith USN >One of the ones they all agreed upon was E. E. "Doc" Smith's >Lensman series. Now, I had been hearing about these books for >years, and had been looking off and on for them for quite some >time, without success. Could never find the first book, don't you >know, and I do prefer to start It's called Triplanetary Actually, I thoroughly enjoyed the series. It was written a long time ago, and perceptions were different back then. One must take that into account when reading it, or you will probably be offended. (Unless, of course, you are a male chauvenist p*g :-) As to the science, it is truly off base. Of course, when it was written, the idea of an all pervasive stuff refered to as 'ether' was quite popular, and Michalson-Morley had not yet disproved it. Hence, much of the pseudo-science is _way_ off base. Whew! All that aside, if read strictly as a morality yarn, it really is quite good. I expect to be severly flamed by all who _hate_ Doc Smith, but I anticipate that there are a significant number of supporters, too :-) Harry Gross {phri|nyit|helm}!gor!hjg ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 02:31:51 GMT From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU From: (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series "Galactic Patrol" (the first Lensman story to be _written_) is approximately 10 years older than Schmitz's "Agent of Vega". Then there is the fact that while Smith didn't _sell_ it until around 1927, he _wrote_ "The Skylark of Space" before the first World War! He was quite a bit older than Schmitz and it shows in his attitudes. Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 21:32:53 GMT From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!markb@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series (SPOILERS) Clark_A._Hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.COM writes: >The Lensmen Stories are: > >Triplanetary >First Lensman >Galactic Patrol >Grey Lensman >Second-Stage Lensman >Children of the Lens Facts of interest about the Lensmen series: The books were first written as pulp magazine serials in the order: Galactic Patrol Grey Lensmen Second-Stage Lensmen Children of the Lens The other two books appeared later only as books: Triplanetary First Lensman The space hijacking story from TRI was first published as a non-lensmen short story. FL was written because the publisher offered Smith a deal he couldn't refuse (i.e. write this book or we won't consider the book you want to write) Reading the serials is a very different experience from the books. You, the reader, find out the true fact about what is going on at the same time as Kinnison does. For instance the first mention of Eddore is in the second to last chapter of SSL. All of the prologs and epologs about the Arasia-Eddore conflict were added when the serials were turned into books. The cute found a message frame story for CotL was added for the book. The last chapter of CotL was also changed, because the first hardback publisher didn't like some of the things implied (e.g that Chris and his sisters would end up in a 5 way incestuous relationship in order to breed the new replacement race for the departed Arasians). The book "Vortex Blaster" is a independent novel set in the Lensmen Universe somewhere between SSL and CotL. Different Topic: Skylark series Skylark, Skylark Three and Skylark Valirion were also first published as serials. Skylark Deuquesne was written in the early 60's due to publisher pressure over wanting something new to add to a reprint of the series. I have found no differences (except typo correction) between the Skylark serials and the books. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb P.S. Thanks to Bill Glass at The Change of Hobbit Book store in Santa Monica, CA for help with some of the details. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 18:11:10 GMT From: hplabs!csun!polyslo!cquenel@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Quenelle) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series I absolutely agree with you Sheri! :-) BUT -- I read the first in the series first (The name escapes me.) And it was /good/ in the true Mike Hammer/Doc Savage/etc style (Apologies to those who dislike Mike Hammer (the TV show).) I could even FORCE myself to finish the second book, but I bought it only because of the first one. At least one of my friends concurs heartily with me about this. Has anyone out there read ALL of them ? (Or at least /more/ of them ?) Do they get better (I would doubt it, just on instinct) ? A NOTE to those sensitive (and some, /over/ly sensitive) to the dread crime ........ (whispered) sexism. While reading old/very old science fiction, when you turn off your disbelief of the proposed "scientific advances" people thought were going to happen back in the 40's - 60's, please, just extend your disbelief a little further and understand that as much as an attitude toward science was a characteristic of that society, so was an attitude towards women. We don't subscribe to that attitude anymore (well, hardly anybody, :-), and no one we pay any attention too, right ?), but regardless: Sexism was the prevalent moral attitude, please try to understand that these writers were writing to be understood by the readers of the time, and they did not want their readers to think : "Jeez, what is this a guy, a suffragette or something ?" So, have a little understanding. It makes everything go down smoother. You don't have to agree, but just suspend your disbelief for the length of the book. If you can suspend disbelief of flying to the stars or traveling in time, or dragons and witches and 12 dimensional spaces, you can suspend your disbelief of male superiority long enough to listen to the tale the book is trying to say. Sorry this is a little long-winded, but I feel strongly about this. I think every man is free to be a sexist, or a bigot, or whatever, just as his peers are free to spurn him, but that "spurning" is between him, and you and I get tired of reading about it in every other article here. Chris Quenelle ucbvax!voder!polyslo!cquenel ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 13 May 87 0856-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #224 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 13 May 87 0856-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #224 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 13 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 224 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 May 87 04:00:51 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #210 From: Zigetty > This is my first reply to SF-LOVERS so I will make no >apologies.. First subject is Heinlein. Yes I accept the important >role he has had in the evolution of SF as an acceptable genre (end >of praise). However, let me add my 5 cents worth to the debate. >Heinlein was years before his time in that he pre-empted the >laissez-faire/new right libertarianism which is sweeping the west. >How anyone can take a blatantly militaristic and xenophobic piece >of raw hate like Starship Troopers as a work of intelligent (and >typical work) is beyond my comprehension. Despite the fact that >the U.S. was crippled both economically and politically by its >involvement in S.E. Asia,people still maintain that Heinlen is a >credible author. What's wrong haven't any of you read the FOREVER >WAR ? Or seen Platoon.... (Well, I finally got unbacklogged- with this as the last one, I kind of wish I was still backlogged...) _Starship Troopers_ concerns a military of the future, human beings versus aliens who are not understood and who are not in the least friendly. This I do not find unbelievable. We don't even understand different HUMAN cultures, and yet aliens are all supposed to be NICE? The characters are not twisted murderers. They are soldiers. The main character's biggest emotion during the combat sections is fear. The humans interact as humans, not as psychopathic robots. The premise is a war with aliens. What makes this worse than any of the hundreds upon hundreds of other books about humans vs. aliens? (If you hated this, DON'T read Sheckley, or Saberhagen, or Smith, or.....) As far as Vietnam and Korea (I presume this is "S.E. Asia"?) Read _Glory Road_- Oscar's experiences in this area aren't real neat. The enemy are the enemy- getting chopped by a bolo machete didn't exactly weaken that view for Oscar. Thus, would he be imperialist Jingoist? And by the way, yes I've read _The Forever War_, and seen _Platoon_ Golly whiz, I guess I'm supposed to be able to judge from those alone? (Just as a minor aside, to anyone interested in biographies of soldiers in Vietnam, _Ringed In Steel_ and _Chickenhawk_ are kind of enlightening. Personally, all I can say is I'm damn well glad I wasn't there. Right now I'm prime USDD grade-A #1 draft pick- makes me interested.) Eric ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 18:52:00 GMT From: harvard!ima!inmet!janw@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? >leonard@bucket.UUCP writes: >mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes: >>I do not wish to detail my opinion of SIASL, because I probably >>couldn't do it justice. Can someone more literate than myself >>explain, in one thousand words or less, why SIASL is such a >>supremely offensive tale? > >It is offensive _specifically because_ it was intended to offend >the sensibilities of anyone who couldn't see that many of our >cultural "givens" are _not_ laws of nature. > >Heinlein's avowed intent was to write a book making a case (cases?) >for the opposite of various "unquestionable" axioms. Cannibalism, >marriage, sex, religion... Yes, it seems to be a consistent strategy of Heinlein to challenge several taboos per book. What I liked about SIASL, however, was not that - not the second half with the sex-cult utopia, but the beginning, introducing an *alien way of thinking*. It is a very difficult and rare thing in SF. Mike (the human brought up by Martians) thinks more than he acts, and we are given a glimpse of his thoughts (described in such terms as "grokking", "cherishing" and "waiting"). It's only a glimpse, and then Mike gradually becomes a normal Heinlein human hero, magnanimous, brave and sexually liberating. Still, the book comes to grips, for a few moments, with a major limitation of SF. It is easy to describe three-eyed, seven-tentacled beings. But aliens, or future people, who *think* and *feel* quite differently from us (as they most surely must) are hard to imagine and harder to make a readable story around it. The usual procedure is inventing a strange entourage and making it feel "real" by filling it with ordinary, next-door people. Content of their thoughts may be different, but the style and method of thinking is, not just human, but that of the author's own period and subculture. This deprives such SF of most predictive value. Whatever the future, or other worlds, hold in stock, it can't be *that* - not 20'th century Americans masquerading as galactic monsters. Mentality changes as fast as technology, faster than anatomy. SIASL (part of it) is a valuable exception. Jan Wasilewsky ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 87 03:46:34 GMT From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) Well, here's to Heinlein again. People who are sick of all that Heinlein stuff are cordially invited to hit 'n'/'j'/whatever or else keep quiet. I've waited for some time to see what responses we would get to that `essay' and my response to it. Actually, I am a little bit surprised about the level of discussion - positively, that is. I have seen the net break out into flame wars on much more harmless things like the issues we have raised here. In fact, many people have managed to stick to the underlying themes rather than declare their `hate' of the author. Those who didn't have made their own declaration of personal worth. My original posting indicated that maybe this group is not the right place for these discussions. Several people have told me and the net in no uncertain terms that they think it IS. Thank you; I do agree with you. I was just covering my ... backside from expected flames. Curiously, there were rather few of them - as I said, a positive surprise. OK, then, I'll stay here and say my say. Thanks, obviously, to those who said they liked my little piece. And no, I did not intend to slight literature professors - just students who have a null-dimensional view of what literature is all about... And now enough of the past. The merits, or lack thereof, of the `essay' that started all this have been examined by many; I really don't want to go back to that. The net consensus seems to be that no matter whether the ideas of *The Moon is a Harsh Mistress* are wrong or right, Mark's essay fails as an attempted work of literary criticism. (Or would you really defend it on these grounds, Kev?) The discussion seems to move from the one book to `general Heinlein'. A good thing, too; as many have pointed out, a single book is not a good base to judge any author, much less Heinlein whose writing shows quite some diversity. I'll put up a few separate responses for articles that require some length. Yes, Kev, one is for you. Beyond that, I have some minor remarks to some postings; I will collect these here. I am sure that I have forgotten or ignored some relevant contributions; so just because I don't talk about YOURS doesn't mean I agree (or disagree) with you. The quotations are in no particular order. Gordon E. Banks (geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu) thinks that Heinlein's "credentials as a libertarian" are suspect, that he has "a bit too much of the feudal" in his characters and "relies on the idea that the good are going to be strong enough to quash the bullies". In fact, I am positive that Heinlein is no libertarian. Complete libertarianism is an idealization, and Heinlein doesn't deal in idealizations, he works with realities. None of his lead characters would die for an idea, though they would (and sometimes do) die for their family and their society (juvies excepted - I'm talking about `mature' Heinlein characters). I don't think that he is `feudal' in the technical sense (which is rather specialized), though I grant that some elements are there. If you consider his extended family groups, like the Tertius family (in *Time Enough For Love*), one of the advantages that Lazarus Long mentions explicitly is that the death of any individual member of the family doesn't destroy the whole; that NO ONE is indispensable. Even Lazarus Long in that `model family' is a *member*, though a highly respected one; NOT some kind of autocratic ruler. MacLeod (macleod@drivax) thinks that most of Heinlein's "adult authority figures" are "touched by bitterness and cynicism". If that means that they are *realists* who have shed their naivity and (many) illusions, that is true. I guess that's supposed to be part of growing up; they could hardly be "adult" figures if they hadn't. Yet I cannot find excessive bitterness or cynicism in many of them - in fact, most of them seem to enjoy life a lot. Maybe we use the word differently - if cynicism is knowing that the world isn't like you'd want it to be, and bitterness is knowing that it will never be, then you are right. Yet I'd take knowledge and realism over self-created illusions any time. Hard on your soft spots, to be sure, but infinitely more satisfying in the long run. Darren L. Leigh (dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu) has done a real good job in distilling the `Heinlein character typus', though he expresses it a bit uncharitably. One thing, though: > Fifth: All of the novels with Lazarus Long, a man who feels he is > above the law because he is older than it and knows he will > outlive it. In a sense, I guess you could say that he considers himself `above the law'. Yet the reason is not that he considers himself to be somehow superior, or that he thinks he can get away with it (by outliving it); after all, a bullet can kill him as easily as the next man. It is just that he (as most other Heinlein heroes) does not ascribe any mythical significance to law and government - laws are there to help organize society; if they don't serve the purpose, they are useless and to be disregarded. One definite point of Heinlein is that he does not believe that a majority is automatically wiser, juster or more effective than a single person. He strongly believes in *individual worth* (or can you say *valor*). Doesn't sit too well with idealistic democrats and egalitarians, of course. Thanks to Eric Carpenter (ccs006@ucdavis) for answering one of the sillier flames around Heinlein. There is one recurring objection to Heinlein that I'd like to answer to: `He has supported the Vietnam war, so he must be a lowlife jerk' (paraphrased). Why do some people have such a knee-jerk reflex about Vietnam? Yes, I know, this is mostly a rhetorical question. Still, perhaps, before you accuse him of rampant militarism, you should read some of his work. Not just the SF novels (though that *should* cure you), but some of his non-fiction articles. (You *do* know that Heinlein writes non-fiction, do you?) To sum it up: he didn't support the idea of the Vietnam war (knowing quite well that the whole setup was untenable); but he argued that once the U.S. had officially committed itself to an alliance with South Vietnam, it should stick to that commitment. He wanted the U.S. to publicly recognize that a FULL-SCALE WAR was going on, rather than doing as if this was some police action that could be solved without any national commitment, and he thought that going in with the full force of the U.S. military would save thousands of lifes, compared to the half-cooked approach that was actually taken. And he was and is appalled by the treatment that U.S. soldiers got for risking their lives *for their country*. Heinlein's position towards the military is *cautiously positive*. He maintains that any society, to remain viable, needs to be *able and willing* to apply force if needed, and that cultures that have become squeamish in this respect have historically had a short lifespan. (Check your references - for better or worse he's quite right there!) And his main philosophy IS realism and pragmatism; thus, if a military is necessary for a society to survive, then it's a *good thing* to have one. You may disagree, but then please do so with rational arguments. While being afraid (of war and loss and death) is natural and understandable, it is no justification for letting those fears take over your brain. [A short aside to Eric: the concept of `the Mob' as a mass of people taking on properties different from those of its elements is not SF, it's (often unfortunate) reality. See some standard texts on mass psychology. Heinlein just applies reality here.] A somewhat disgruntled response to one of Kevin's (ugcherk@joey's) previous replies (to someone else): >every time Heinlein has a character who exhibits a strong >ideological viewpoint and likes to preach about it, *that character >always advocates a rigid, elitist, intervening government.* That is flatly wrong. Did you really hear Lazarus Long advocate `rigid government', let a lone an `intervening' (interventionist?) one? In fact, in about all Heinlein novels that I can think of, from *Double Star* through *Stranger in a Strange Land* to *Friday*, governments come away as inefficiently bumbling at best, and as murderously corrupt at worst. If Heinlein is `elitist', his members of the `elite' are usually loners, going it alone or in small, trusted family groups. They wouldn't dream of wasting their time in government... For Heinlein's "support" of the Vietnam war, see above. However, >He doesn't advocate freedom: he advocates powerful government so >that he can be one of the power elite. The LAST thing that Heinlein advocates is `powerful government'. If anything, his characters are *individualists at heart* who don't want anything to do with governments. (Consider Lazarus Long's expressed opinions about governments and administrations!) I guess you could call Heinlein `elitist' in that he does believe in the *inequality* of people, and in that a strong person has any right to use his/her strength to good advantage. It is also a fact of life that being strong tends to give you power. Yet, I really resent the cheap shot you are trying here. Sounds like he's a member of a conspiracy to wipe out democracy... I think you can do better, Kev. Many thanks to Ken Barry who pointed out the parallels between the loonie fight and the American revolution. Quite right. Again (and I know I repeat myself), Heinlein is concerned with *reality* rather than any idealistic image. Things are usually not done because they fit into some abstract morality scheme, but because someone decides to go out and do them, or else is pressed by circumstances and other people to try. I guess this is especially true for revolutions. As for Heinlein not being "iconoclastic enough" to "get his real message across to a lot of the readers", may I refer you to Jubal Harshaw in *Stranger in a Strange Land*. I think that Harshaw's working morals (he's, among other things, a pulp writer) are in some ways quite indicative of Heinlein's own. Remember that Heinlein writes (or wrote) for a living, and he had no intention to end up an `esteemed writer' who didn't sell. As a realist, he wrote for a broad audience. One of the most impressive abilities of a writer is to create a story in *layers* - on a superficial level it might be a nice adventure story, while on a deeper layer it might convey a moral message. In his best works, Heinlein managed that, with the additional twist that even if you read, say, *Time Enough For Love* as a straight adventure story, some of the philosophic contents still manage to get at your brain (almost subversive :-). Certainly, if you want to get something across, writing a good story with `optional' deeper contents is a better way than writing an `iconoclastic' novel that few people will read. (Though he has done that, too - *Stranger In A Strange Land* comes close.) OK, 'nuff for this article, it's getting long again. Thanks for reading, and feel free to comment on any aspect you like. Rationally, if possible. perry@inteloa.intel.com tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 13 May 87 0913-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #225 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 13 May 87 0913-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #225 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 13 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 225 Today's Topics: Films - Night Skies & Wizards & Android & Shivers & Spaceballs & Wavelength & Lord of the Rings & Good/Bad Movies (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 May 87 01:23:19 GMT From: nee@sdics.ucsd.edu (Clydene Nee) Subject: Re: watch the skies! Actually, the name of the film that Spielberg was working on right before "ET" was called "Night Skies." Rick Baker, and Bill Sturgeon, who did the special makeup effects for "An American Werewolf In London," were working on the alien characters for "Night Skies" when Spielberg decided to work on "ET". So Spielberg shut down production on "Night Skies", and hired Carlo Rambaldi to do "ET". Curiously enough the story line for "Night Skies" was quite similar to "Gremlins," which I heard about 2 years before "Gremlins" was released. Does anyone out there have anything to add to this story? clydene nee ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 03:03:58 GMT From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman) Subject: Re: Wizards DANDOM@UMass.BITNET writes: > Another *very* important artistic influence was that of Mike Ploog > who pretty much reinterpreted the Bode style in his own image and > added many other touches that were soley of his imagination. > Ploog's elves for example were later 'ripped-off' by Wendy Pini > (her elves are virtually indentical). Ploog was known for his > stunning and disturbing artwork on Marvel's Man Thing, and some > early work on Marvel's own Sword and Sorcery epic Weirdworld. This is a knee-jerk reaction from an ElfQuest fan, so feel free to ignore it. I was first attracted to EQ because of the elves on the cover; "Wow!" I thought, "They're just like the elves in _Wizards_!" Much later, after reading the series, I looked at pictures of _Wizards_ elves again. They're very different (I think there was even a picture of one of each side-by-side in the Gatherum) -- the EQ elves are much more delicate, less like small humans with pointy ears. Though the new "Seige at Blue Mountain" makes them look a little more like Ploog elves... jed hartman {{seismo, ihnp4}!bpa, cbmvax!vu-vlsi, sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 13:47:11 GMT From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: A Good Movie From: rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Arthur Evans) > One movie I haven't heard anyone mention is 'Android' -- a low > budget film with some beautiful performances, including Klaus > Kinski as a mad scientist Definitely an odd film. It was made by New World Pictures as part of their space opera mill that started with BATTLE BEYOND THE STARS and GALAXY OF TERROR, and it reuses special effects from previous New World Pictures, but it also has, at times, a fairly sensitive script. One of my sources tells me it was released by Island Alive, now called Island Pictures. They specialize in art house films like KISS OF THE SPIDER WOMAN, MONA LISA, and A GREAT WALL. The script was by the actor in the title role, Don Opper. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 13:55:12 GMT From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Scanners jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK writes: > As Cronenberg films go, I prefer Trancers and Slither (a film > that, unfortunately, has several different names -- not to be > confused with Slither. This is the one with the sexual parasite > beastie.) I think you may be confused. TRANCERS (a.k.a. FUTURE COP) was directed by Charles Band. There was a Cronenberg film whose Canadian title was SHIVERS, and whose American title was THEY CAME FROM WITHIN, and some places was called THE PARASITE MURDERS, but not, as far as I can tell SLITHER. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 87 01:55 EST From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: spaceballs At a Creation con in NYC this weekend I heard Terry Erdman do a preview-presentation for a new movie coming this summer called SPACEBALLS. It is a Mel Brooks parody of the sf film genre (Star Wars in particular.) It looks like it could be pretty good.... Characters: PRINCESS VESPA: remember the Jews in Space joke at the end of History of the World part I? Well, this is a Jewish American princess in space. She's a princess of the planet Druidia (sp?) ("funny, she doesn't *look* druish....") she is being forced to marry Prince Valiant, the last prince in the galaxy when she steals the honeymoon coupe and runs away. She has dark hair and wears white. Sound familiar? While escaping, she is pursued by.... DARK HELMET: this one doesn't ring any bells of course. Played by Rick Moranis (Little Shop of Horrors). Has a dark robe, a dark helmet with a heavy-breathing attachment. He is a master of the dark side of the force which holds the universe together (more on that later). The princess is saved in the nick of time by.... LONE STAR: Han Solo with someone else's initials. In his interstellar winnebago, he roams the galaxy in search of his next paycheck. He rescues Vespa and they flee to a desert planet with remarkably familiar scenery, accompanied of course by.... DOROTHY MATRIX: a human-sized and -shaped (sort of) golden droid. Sort of a she-threepio. Vespa's constant companion. Called Dot Matrix for short. And of course we can't forget Lone Star's sidekick.... BARF: a Mog. That's half-man, half-dog. (He's his own best friend). Played by John Candy. COLONEL SANDURZ: random sidekick for the bad guys MR. SCROOBE (sp?): the head bad guy. trying to take over Druidia. and last but not least... YOGHURT: dispenser of good advice with fruit at the bottom. heavily involved with the force that controls all...The Schwartz. a cross between a certain starwars character and something out of Dark Crystal. Played by MB himself. SPACEBALLS opens June 26th. May the Schwartz be with you!!! Susan de Guardiola DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 18:31:31 GMT From: ee173sdu@sdcc18.ucsd.edu (Jethro Bodean) Subject: Good little-known low-budget SF movie If this one was mentioned I didn't see it... WAVELENGTH: There may be movies be the same name (I heard of confusion over this point once) but basically it's aliens are on earth and good people help them escape. Made late 70's I believe. In many ways it's a precursor of STARMAN and actually gives the human race some credit. I would hesitate to say it's (SM) a remake because it's a pretty average plot and there are differences, but it's not a bad comparison... It's pretty standard but has it's good points. It is low-budget but some of my favorite SF is... The 'low-budgetness' is not obtrusive and is the endearing kind not the $2.99 special effect kind... It's on video but ignore the lame picture on the front (if they haven't improved it) of a drawn picture of some scary space alien in a tank as opposed to the 12 year olds that actually appear as aliens in the movie... Pay special attention to the final scene and you will burst out laughing if you've seen STARMAN. (FX rip-off time..) Enjoy it if you can find it... Tod Kuykendall ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 09:08:26 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Bakshi and LORD OF THE RINGS From: well!farren (Mike Farren) >> Despite the unethical copying involved in Wizards, I really wish >> someone would fund Bakshi to *FINISH* the second half of The Lord >> of the Rings. > > They can't. In an obscure, convoluted, and insane deal, Bakshi > only was able to get the rights to the first two books in the > trilogy. Rankin-Bass owns the rights to The Hobbit and The Return > of the King, and has made films of both of them.... Not so. Bakshi had the rights to the entire trilogy, but the film he made wasn't exactly a box-office smash and he couldn't get the backing to do the second film. Bakshi still had the rights to the last book when Rankin-Bass made their version. R-B managed to get away with it by basing their film on the first edition of LORD OF THE RINGS, which for very convoluted reasons, is in Public Domain in the US (it's this edition from which Ace reprinted *their* "unauthorized" edition of the Trilogy back in the mid-60's (Tolkien revised the Trilogy specifically to be able to secure a proper US copyright for the work). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 04:43:45 GMT From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell) Subject: Re: sf movies There is one movie that hasn't been mentioned yet. Now, I know that many people won't consider this "real" science-fiction, but I enjoyed it and I think it belongs. The movie is "Electric Dreams" and it's really a romance that uses a beserk PC as a catalyst. For those unfamiliar with the movie, it centers around a quiet, introverted architect who buys a personal computer (and LOTS of peripherals). He eventually has his entire apartment wired into it. One day, he hooks it up to another computer and starts dumping data into it. Well, the poor PC goes beserk and (gasp!) smoke and sparks start coming out of the keyboard. In his wisdom, he puts the fire out with champagne (apparently, he didn't have the halon installed yet...). This, of course, causes some weird sort of matrix to evolve on the computer boards and the PC suddenly acquires artificial intelligence. To complicate matters, an attractive female cellist has moved in upstairs, and the architect and the PC go into competition to gain her affections. I know, it's not at all realistic, but the music is great and it's a pleasant two hours. As for BAD movies, I nominate the last half of DUNE including the sacrilegious rain scene at the end. The first half (up until Paul and his mother flee into the desert) is tolerable and rather well done. But the last half ranks right up there with Plan 9... Chris Russell Computer Aided Design Lab University of Maryland Arpa: russell@king.ee.umd.edu UUCP: ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell Jnet: russell@umcincom fone: (301)454-8886 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 87 9:07:47 EDT From: the Shadow Subject: Re: Good F&SF Films you might not have thought of... > Has anyone noticed the severe paucity of good Fantasy film? YES!!! It is surprising given the glut of fantasy literature on the market. > _Wizards_ was so-so, I've never seen _Fire and Ice_, and so forth > and so on... Ditto, here, although it's been awhile since I saw WIZARDS; Perhaps I should make the effort to see it again. I do recall that it was a rather good mood piece. > How about good non-horror Fantasy film, especially High Fantasy? Well, here's where I stick my foot firmly in my mouth. I don't know how anyone else on the net felt about these, but I enjoyed them very much. LADYHAWKE is one of the best fantasy films I have ever seen. It combines a good backdrop with enjoyable characters and some nice concepts. It also had a strong element of romance, which seems to be at the core of most of the best fantasies (King Arthur, Lord of the Rings, The Inferno). I found the movie refreshing because of it's low dependence on special effects or gore. There were several times in the movie when I caught myself thinking, "Oh no, they're going to ruin this movie with some stupid special effects," and then they would work around it with some graceful cinematography. I was very impressed with the movie. The other movie I would recommend is DRAGONSLAYER. My mind is a little fuzzy about this one, since I only saw it once, and that was a while ago. I disliked it when I first saw it, but the movie grew on me in retrospect. I really need to see it again before I give it a high rating, but I can say that it is worth seeing. Unfortunately, I seem to recall that neither of these movies did particularly well at the box office, so it may be awhile before any producers stick their necks out to try fantasy films again. Another fantasy movie that would be worth seeing is EXCALIBUR. I personally did not like it, but that is because I have strong aversion to Arthurian tales ("Gee, it's the same old story told in yet-another-way.") However, the movie itself was well done. If anyone can think of any other fantasy (NOT swords and sorcery) films, I would be interested in hearing about them. enjoy, Jeff Hanes USnail: 1447 Harford Square Edgewood, MD 21040 UUCP: {seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl!jeffh ARPA: MILNET: ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 14:29:38 GMT From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: SF films From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA > There is one film I remember seeing that no one has mentioned. > I vaguely remember it and I won't pass judgement on it (it was > DIFFERENT) cause people like strange things (Neil Young was > popular once). Anyway John Huston was in it and Glen Ford had a > part in it too. DIFFERENT? It is nearly unwatchable. The film is called THE VISITOR. Boring mystical horror. It must be one of the worst films with a cast of decent actors. > There was an interesting film with David Hemmings. It deals with > an association of 20th century vampires. Ah, now there you do have an intesesting, though not great film. THIRST is an Australian vampire film that suggests, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, that vampires would keep up with the times. Not great, but fun at times. Why do you call them science fiction? Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 01:59:36 GMT From: borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Good F&SF Films you might not have thought of... From: >If anyone can think of any other fantasy (NOT swords and sorcery) >films, I would be interested in hearing about them. Not sure why you're saying "not sword and sorcery", since most of the films you mentioned fall roughly in that category. Anyway, here are some fantasy film recommendations of mine, somewhat categorized. Epic Fantasy (aka sword and sorcery, heroic fantasy, quest stories, etc.): I know of no really great films in this genre, but there are some fairly good ones. Two that you mentioned, LADYHAWKE and DRAGONSLAYER, qualify as solid, entertaining films, well worth seeing. Other good ones are the Ray Harryhausen films, JASON & THE ARGONAUTS, and SEVENTH VOYAGE OF SINBAD; CONAN THE BARBARIAN (CONAN THE DESTROYER was OK, but inferior; all the grittiness and darkness of the Conan stories was missing); and Bakshi's THE LORD OF THE RINGS. "Hollywood" fantasy - my own term for the one kind of fantasy Hollywood seems fond of, best described by example rather than description: IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE, MIRACLE ON 34TH STREET, THE GHOST AND MRS. MUIR, and the 1943 HEAVEN CAN WAIT are all fine examples. These movies were most popular in the 1940's, have contemporary settings, top talent both before and behind the camera, and a lot of warmth and humanity. There are too many of 'em to even list just the good ones. Others - never mind categories. Some other fine fantasy films include THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES (1936), THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO (not great, but engaging), PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE, GHOSTBUSTERS, and, best of 'em all, RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, which people sometimes forget is fantasy. I've left out mentioning any films that are even marginally SF, since they've already been covered in the "Good SF Films" discussion. I'm also leaving out horror films, as they are a category of their own. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 13 May 87 0935-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #226 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 13 May 87 0935-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #226 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 13 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 226 Today's Topics: Books - Chandler (3 msgs) & Clarke & E.E. Doc Smith (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 May 87 19:05:53 GMT From: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: Bertram Chandler dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes: >I don't know about everyone else on the net, but I'm a real fan of >the novels by Bertram Chandler, with John Grimes (I think). >Unfortunately, I don't have any of the novels and can't seem to >find them in the stores. The one title that comes to mind is "The >Far Traveller". Anyhow, does anyone out there have a listing of the >books he's written? Does anyone know if the guy is still alive and >writing? (If he's not writing, I don't care :-). Dave, I just recently picked up a complete(?) set of the Grimes series in recent reprint. There were, I believe, two issues out and at least one of the two printed the stories two-to-a-book. Check your local well-stocked paperback store or SF-conscious used book store. I don't know whether he's still alive and kicking (or writing), but as I said, the Grimes series has just been reprinted. Kristopher Stephens Amdahl Corporation 408-746-6047) amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 87 15:20 EDT From: Boebert@mit-multics.arpa Subject: Raymond Chandler Fantasy Raymond Chandler (a mystery writer of note) supposedly wrote a group of fantasy stories near the end of his life. Did these ever get published anywhere? ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 20:52:00 GMT From: dand@tekigm2.tek.com (Dan Duval) Subject: Re: Bertram Chandler A. Bertram Chandler, once the skipper of an ore freighter plying the route between the Australian mainland and Tasmania, died last year, which is part of the reason that his books are in reprint suddenly. Thus, we'll have no new stories either of the old Commodore Grimes or of the Mannschein drive. Dan C Duval ISI Engineering Tektronix, Inc. tektronix!tekigm2!dand ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 87 04:23:03 GMT From: motown!bunker!wtm@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill McGarry) Subject: Large print edition of "Childhood's End" needed Recently, in the Handicap News news group, there was a request for a large print edition of "Childhood's End" by Arthur Clarke. Susan Hammond suggested that I post the request in this group to try to find a source. Susan also mentioned that there used to be a college group in Amherst working on large print books and that "jmturn@ringwld" had been involved in this. Is there anyone out there who can help me? Thanks in advance, Bill McGarry {decvax, philabs}!bunker!wtm ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 87 21:19:49 GMT From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series Drat. I kind of liked the Lensman series, but then, I'm your stereo-typical 28-year-old adoloscent male neurotic. Or something like that. Hmm. Patronizing towards women? Perhaps. It seems that most women were fluff--the only one who ever did anything real was Clarissa McDougal. Doc Smith seemed to think that women were different from men--that they were better at some things and worse at others. Unfortunately, the things that men were better at were more exciting. Doc Smith said that the real meat of the story was in _The Children of the Lens_ (the last book)--that the others were more or less prologue. Heinlein said in one essay that there was more to the Lensman story that has been printed--that Doc Smith's estate has an outline for the story after _The Children of the Lens_. Does anyone have more info about this? david rickel decwrl!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 22:23:39 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: The Lensman Series daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >Doc Smith said that the real meat of the story was in _The Children >of the Lens_ (the last book)--that the others were more or less >prologue. > >Heinlein said in one essay that there was more to the Lensman story >that has been printed--that Doc Smith's estate has an outline for >the story after _The Children of the Lens_. Does anyone have more >info about this? CHILDREN OF THE LENS is not the last book in the series; the last book is called MASTERS OF THE VORTEX. I last read it many years ago, but I remember not liking it nearly as much as the others (I admit it, I liked the Lensman series (when I read it eight years ago)). If memory serves me, MASTERS OF THE VORTEX takes place considerably after the rest of the series, and deals with very different sorts of issues. Memory does not serve well enough for me to be any more specific. But the book does exist and should be as easy to find as any of the others in the series, I suppose. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 04:13:59 GMT From: dayton!viper!ddb@RUTGERS.EDU (David Dyer-Bennet) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series From: LT Sheri Smith USN >Anyhow, I finally made a special trip to a very special bookstore >in Carmel-by-the-Sea, and found book number TWO (The Grey Lensman?? >The First Lensman??) which I immediately bought and read. Verdict: Second book would be First Lensman >IT WAS AWFUL!! TRULY AWFUL!!! > >I found it trite, belittling, patronizing to women, and generally >poorly done in terms of character/story development. I literally >had to force myself to finish it, which I only did because so many >people have spoken so well of it over the years. Heaven alone knows >why.... Assuming the book you read was in fact First Lensman (in which Virgil Samms is first given the lens), I guess we may have to agree to differ. However, for the record, let me comment on the sexism issue. Consider when the book was written; while this is not a valid defense of the book itself as read today, it may help place it in historical perspective. I believe that Smith was considerably in advance of his time in his view of women, actually. In First Lensman there is a female character (Virgillia Samms) who does important work for the good guys, takes physical risks to do it, etc. She does the work by virtue of her skills, not primarily her appearance. Now, some of the other women in the book (Clio Marsden) stay home and etc. just like in the stereotypes, but what the book says is that it's valid and appropriate for women to DO things (and Vrigillia Samms wasn't an unhappy misfit or anything, though she was an extremely special person). This isn't the main point of the book by any means, but it's clearly there. As to your complaints about characterization and plot, it takes all kinds. That is, I thought the characters were interesting and the characterization adequate, and the plot very good. These are mostly plot books. We probably just like different kinds of books. David Dyer-Bennet UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 20:32:09 GMT From: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert Plamondon) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series The first third of "The Skylark of Space" is excellent---fast-paced, well-written, and very enjoyable. It deteriorates as soon as they leave Earth, and goes downhill more or less continuously after that. Our culture has changed since the Doc Smith books were written, and it's better to treat them like a Jules Verne book---picture the action as occurring in the period in which the book was written, and not in our future. Alternate history, not future history. It's more fun if you consistently visualize the Skylark books as being set in the Roaring Twenties, with the thugs DuQuesne hires wearing spats and toting tommy guns, leather upholstery in the spaceships, control systems working by gears and cams, cotton-insulated wires, horn speakers on the interstellar radios, and "Let's Misbehave" playing on the Victrola. The Lensmen books take place in a high-tech world---naugahyde upholstery, gears and cams replaced by relays, electrical phonographs, real speakers on the radios, which now have dozen of tubes of much higher quality. (Cole Porter's still current, though). These books are period pieces. If anyone every films them, I hope they keep this in mind. Robert Plamondon UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax,cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 87 15:54:05 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: The Lensman Series (spoiler!!!) (1) I agree that the Lensman series is rather patronizing toward women at times; but please try to remember that that was THE attiture during the Fifties. (2) I daresay you ran into the "sex-based incompatibility" and bounced. Please read the whole series!!! (a) Jill Samms jumped to conclusions when she was blasting off about "pure killers"; (b) (SPOILER!!!) You must realize that the true reason that only one woman was ever permitted to have a Lens was so that the Children of the Lens would be "explained" by it. In reality, the Arisians were conducting a genetic program on humanity -- a fact they did NOT want humans, or anyone else, to know. (3) If you have an old copy, then you'll not find out most of this until the last book of the series. Newer copies have the history of Eddore and Arisia spread all through them, and you therefore know more about WHY things happen as they do in the series. Many things that seem totally bogus taken locally turn out to be VERY important in the big picture. (cf. #2 above) Give it another try, and be tolerant. 'Tain't no such thing as women's equality in books before the '70's. (And, truth to tell, little of it now.) Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, OH 44060 +01 216 255 1080 {decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 14:55:41 GMT From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_atrh@RUTGERS.EDU (Thomas Richard From: Holtz) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series robert@weitek.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes: >The Lensmen books take place in a high-tech world---naugahyde >upholstery, gears and cams replaced by relays, electrical >phonographs, real speakers on the radios, which now have dozen of >tubes of much higher quality. (Cole Porter's still current, >though). > >These books are period pieces. If anyone every films them, I hope >they keep this in mind. "If" anyone films them, you say? Well, in the summer of 1984, in Japan, a new major animated motion picture came out, using state of the art computer graphics. The title: "Lensman" Yes, E.E. "Doc" Smith has made it to the Silver Screen. But wait, there's more! In 1985 (I think), the T.V. Series "Lensman: Galactic Patrol" was released on Japanese television, using the same character design as the movie. The plot of the movie is based (somewhat) on "Galactic Patrol". The series is in some ways closer to the books, but neither are that literal a translation. The main characters (Kim and Chris) look a little to suspicsiously like Luke and Leia. Van Buskirk has been turned from a high-grav Dutchman to a huge humanoid with bison-like features. Worsel, the dragon lensman, the prototype for Spock and MY favorite character in the series, is a bipedal humanoid in this version, but still impressive. The Boskone are ugly Bug-Eyed Monsters, Mentor looks like Yoda, and Tregonsee has eyes (Mentor and Tregonsee do not appear in the movie). The lens is still the lens. For literalists, the movie is probably painful. I, however, enjoy the spirit of the books, and that is definately found in the Japanese versions. A warning, though: as some of you may know, some Japanese animated SF is superior to American as it does not always cater to children. The "Lensman: Galactic Patrol" series, however, is written for Japanese children, so there are the requisite cute-sified stuff found in children's stories eveywhere. Tom Holtz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 87 10:26:16 EDT From: the Shadow Subject: Re: The Lensman Series according to LT Sheri Smith ... > IT WAS AWFUL!! TRULY AWFUL!!! > > I found it trite, belittling, patronizing to women, and generally > poorly done in terms of character/story development. I literally > had to force myself to finish it, which I only did because so > many people have spoken so well of it over the years. Heaven > alone knows why.... I have a friend who professes to like the LENSMAN series very much, while admitting that it is rather trite, repetitive, sexist, etc. His claim is that it is necessary to read these while one is around the ages of 12-15 in order really enjoy them. At that age, one's literary discrimination has not yet developed (mine certainly hadn't) and the primary criterion for enjoyment is FUN. He recalled the books with fondness, but would not recommend them to anyone with more mature tastes in fiction. Perhaps you should hop into your Way-Back(tm) Machine and go convince yourself to read them during your adolescent years. Then your other self could compare notes with your current self to see how well the two of you like the books "now". Someone recently made a similar claim with regard to reading THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA. While I feel that these have a little more literary merit than the LENSMAN books, I can understand that claim. For the record, I read these when I was about 13 years old, and they are still among my favorites in the fantasy field, ranking up there with THE CHRONICLES OF PRYDAIN. Can anyone think of other books that they enjoyed immensely when they were younger, but might not like as well if they were to read them now for the first time? (Can anyone unravel that question?) Cheers, Jeff Hanes USnail: 1447 Harford Square Edgewood, MD 21040 MILNET: UUCP: {seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl!jeffh ARPA: ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 15:12:26 GMT From: seismo!gould!novavax!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry@RUTGERS.EDU (Lawrence From: F. Strickland) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series Depending on how tightly one looks at these things, the first lensman book may not be 'Triplanetary'. Much of the background of the series was laid in a book called 'Spacehounds of IPC'. True, it did not have the characters that were in Triplanetary, but much of the feel is very, very similar. As others have pointed out, the stories are now out of date by quite a bit. I find it amazing that life (and especially societies view of women) has changed so much in just a few years! Nevertheless, the books are still very good and hark back to a time when SF was still young. In addition to the standard series: Triplanetary, First Lensman, Grey Lensman, and Second Stage Lensman, there were two other books published. One was _Master of the Vortex_ (a sort of side-story) and the other was _Children of the Lens_. These were published (I think) after 'Doc' Smiths death, and I've always wondered just how much of them he wrote. _Children of the Lens_ is close, but _Master of the Vortex_ doesn't really 'feel' like his writing. Does anyone know?? My father left me a set of first editions (mostly signed and numbered) of the lensman books. Anybody got any idea of what they are worth? (No, I'm not interested in selling, just wondering). Lawrence F. Strickland St. Petersburg Junior College P.O. Box 13489 St. Petersburg, FL 33733 akgua!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry Phone: +1 813 341 4705 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 13 May 87 0953-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #227 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 13 May 87 0953-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #227 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 13 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 227 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 May 87 15:16:46 GMT From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu (Capt. Gym Quirk) Subject: Re: Beaming with your cloaking device plugged-in. A few comments. Beaming while cloaked: I agree that the Impulse engines would be able to support short range transoprts while under cloak (Say just to outside the ship), but from Golden gate park to ALAMEDA (sp--I dont live in the area)? Getting the whales: As I remember, Kirk ordered the bird to uncloak (To freak the whalers) and then ordered Scotty to get the Whales. T. Kogoma cs2633ba@izar.UUCP cs2633ba@izar.UNM.EDU {gatech:unm-la:ucbvax:hc!hi}!unmvax!izar!cs2633ba ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 01:27:25 GMT From: seismo!utai!hub.toronto.edu!ping@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Startrek Loose End In reference to STIV: >> who's going to rescue her? He'll not only have to rescue her, >> but also have to put the knowledge that Genesis can exist back >> into the box (or defuse the knowledge, my preferred option). And >> not through time > > of that. And putting the knowledge back into the box will take > the ingenuity of crew and Dr. C.M. together. Might still be a > story. Remember that Genesis was a FAILURE -- I think even the Klingons recognized that. Consequently nobody would want it and there is no need to put the knowledge "back in the box". It is still possible that someone may develop in into something successful, I guess. But as far as Federation military is concerned the secrecy of Genesis is no longer of value. Seems a rather cruel thing to say to Carol Marcus, doesn't it? Personally I'd rather see something new in the next Star Trek movie. Three in a row on the same series of events is too much. Now that Spock is back and Kirk is again in command of a starship, there is no limit to what they could do or where they could go. Carol Marcus's story is probably best left to the ST novel writers -- I am sure someone should be able to do a good job on a follow-up story involving her. ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 12:22:01 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: STTNG - More stuff II Two pieces of news (or information anyway). David Gerrold is now saying we should recognize FOUR of the names of the cast of STTNG (Maybe they have names like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, I'd recognize those names :-)) The other I quote directly: "All right, here's the first shoe: My contract with STAR TREK expires in two and a half weeks. I have asked GR and Paramount not to renew the contract. Everything is strictly amicable on both sides, and GR and Paramount have asked me to consider staying involved with the show in some capacity. I have said I will consider it. At the present time, I am negotiating with another company and network to write and produce a 4 hour SF mini-series, to be developed from original material (That is, it's not based on any published work). We are very close to making the deal and I expect to be able to announce additional details within two weeks. At that time I will drop the other shoe. dg " Retransmitted (well it wasn't really printed was it) from Compuserve (can I say that on USENET, or is it one of the net's seven dirty words?). Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 12:55:37 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles@RUTGERS.EDU (Edwin Wiles) Subject: Re: Genesis ping@uthub.UUCP writes: >Remember that Genesis was a FAILURE -- I think even the Klingons >recognized that. Consequently nobody would want it and there is no >need to put the knowledge "back in the box". It is still possible >that someone may develop in into something successful, I guess. >But as far as Federation military is concerned the secrecy of >Genesis is no longer of value. The Klingons recognized what? Didn't I hear the Klingon commander say: "The greatest weapon ever developed, and you call it a failure!" Even though it destroys the planet, I'd say that a weapon that can do that in a single shot is rather powerful, and likely to evoke great interest. [ It would be nice if it left a useable planetary ] [ body behind, but you can't have everything! :-) ] >Personally I'd rather see something new in the next Star Trek >movie. Three in a row on the same series of events is too much. >Now that Spock is back and Kirk is again in command of a starship, >there is no limit to what they could do or where they could go. >Carol Marcus's story is probably best left to the ST novel writers >-- I am sure someone should be able to do a good job on a follow-up >story involving her. A good idea. I'd like to know where that Cetacen(sp?) Biologist ended up. She told Kirk that she'd be seeing him. I wouldn't put it past her to have wrangled an assignment to the new Enterprise! Enjoy! Edwin Wiles Net Express, Inc. 1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300 Vienna, VA 22180 seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles ------------------------------ Date: Thu 7 May 87 13:51:45-EDT From: Rob Freundlich From: Subject: another ST loose end Cc: wccs.e-simon%KLA.WESLYN@Wesleyan.Bitnet Maybe this has been discussed before, and I missed it, but it's a question that has been bothering me for some time: In the first episode in which we see the Romulans ("Balance of Terror"?), they are in a ship the Enterprise crew calls a "Bird of Prey" because of its distinctive markings. But in STIII (and STIV), the Klingons are flying a "Klingon Bird of Prey." Since when did the Klingons and Romulans start collaborating on ship design? Or is this just a "lets try to do it and hope the fans don't notice" kind of thing? Rob Freundlich s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet freundlich%vax.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 16:31:41 GMT From: kaufman@ORION.ARPA (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: another ST loose end S.R-FREUNDLICH@KLA.WESLYN writes: >Maybe this has been discussed before, and I missed it, but it's a >question that has been bothering me for some time: > >In the first episode in which we see the Romulans ("Balance of >Terror"?), they are in a ship the Enterprise crew calls a "Bird of >Prey" because of its distinctive markings. > >But in STIII (and STIV), the Klingons are flying a "Klingon Bird of >Prey." Since when did the Klingons and Romulans start >collaborating on ship design? Since 'The Enterprise Incident' (remember the Vulcan Death Grip?), when the Romulans picked up a few (3? 4?) maybe a dozen we never even saw), (apparently through Klingon Imperial advisor Olly K'North ;-). >Or is this just a "lets try to do it and hope the fans don't >notice" kind of thing? It's probably more a lack of good names for ship classes. The two ships, aside from the cloaking device and a general birdlike appearance, had little in common. Bill Kaufman lll-crg!ames-titan!ames!orion!kaufman kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.GOV ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 17:23:34 GMT From: ccastkv@gitpyr.gatech.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti) Subject: Re: another ST loose end From: S.R-Freundlich%KLA.WESLYN%WESLEYAN.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >In the first episode in which we see the Romulans ("Balance of >Terror"?), they are in a ship the Enterprise crew calls a "Bird of >Prey" because of its distinctive markings. > >But in STIII (and STIV), the Klingons are flying a "Klingon Bird of >Prey." Since when did the Klingons and Romulans start >collaborating on ship design? Or is this just a "lets try to do it >and hope the fans don't notice" kind of thing? The first time we find out that Klingons and Romulans are collaborating on ship design is in "The Enterprise Incident" in which the Enterprise enters Romulan space and is immediately confronted by three Romulan ships built using what are obviously Klingon D-7 hulls. At this point one of the crew, I think it was Spock, theorized that the Romulans and Klingons must be sharing technology. The reason for this, however, is that the special effects people either couldn't find the Romulan model from BoT or else shot the wrong ships and didn't realize it until it was too late to reshoot. Thus Klingons and Romulans are now sharing technology which is why the Klingon Bird of Prey also carries a cloaking device. In any case, we were never told the official Romulan designation for the Bird of Prey and there is no reason that the Klingon's couldn't give that designation to a new ship class. Keith Vaglienti Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 87 16:43 EST From: (Kaile Goodman) Subject: Good SF Movies T. Kogoma writes >>FINALLY someone has mentioned an ST movie. I thought ST II was a >>great movie too, but ST I is by far the best -- it is in the real >>Star Trek spirit. > > I beg to differ. ST-TMP may have had the best SCIENCE FICTION >of all the ST movies, but as a cinematic production, it leaves MUCH >to be desired. The plotting is loose to non-existant(sp). The >special effects are ovedone (We can blame Star Wars for htis). And >it is the most BORING of the four. > I admit that the other movies aren't as thought provoking as >ST-TMP, but the 'message' of ST-TMP gets lost in the yawns. Well, I agree completely that ST-TMP was really boring. I would like to also add that I was very disappointed in the story. Not that the story wasn't good, but it was awfully close to a remake of the TV episode "The Changeling". (I hope I got that right.) Kaile Goodman KGoodman@Smith.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 02:30:18 GMT From: ABC%PSUVMB.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: ST:TNG - responses to basic information They fed the Asians and Africans to the Line-Eater's older siblings! rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) says: >Okay, about a week ago, I posted (with much help) a rundown on Star >Trek: The Next Generation (STTNG). > >Since then I've seen several (even before then I saw some) which >look at a four line character description and say "This is a stupid >character, this series is going to stink, what a flop, it's just >like and we ALL know >how bad that is." Just today I figured out, based on information in the _Readers_ _Digest_Almanac_and_Yearbook_, that *over half* the population of the Earth lives in the region of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, China, Japan, Southeast Asia, Indonesia, and the Philippines (sp?). Many more live in the Middle East and Africa. And *none* of these peoples were included in the list of regulars-to-be-cast, although that list is as long as the complete list of all regulars on the original ST. Also, the original ST *did* include an Oriental and and African, even though they were both minor characters. The number of people who are generally thought to have "sex appeal" is even smaller than the number who live in Europe and America. And it isn't really necessary for everyone to have "sex appeal" in order to be liked or respected. So why is this a prerequisite for practically all of the officers on the Enterprise? This would make sense if the new series was to be soft-core porn, but I had *hoped* that it would be mostly serious drama and/or intelligent humor (and not funny only when the token black who "must also be able to do comedy well" is onscreen). My previous criticisms of the casting still stand. P.S. I almost forgot Data... Equal rights for androids! (Even if they look like those Oriental "gooks." ;-) ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 12:31:48 GMT From: MIQ%PSUVMA.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Maloy) Subject: Wesley in ST:TNG (was Galactica Ripoffs) DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET says: >about ripping off Galactica: 1980? > >I seem to recall that one of the characters in that thankfully >short-lived series was a kid genius named Doctor Z or something. >Not that there is any special resemblance to a certain acting >ensign Wesley Crusher in a certain new series that is coming this >fall, but you can't help wondering.... :) Actually, this character is one of my greatest fears about the new series. According to the info posted a month or so ago, Wesley's supposed to be "a normal teenager" aside from the photographic memory and such. I'm praying nightly that he won't become a victim of the overcute image that young teens usually have on prime time TV. Any writer who insists that Wesley have crushes (pun intended) on various female crew members should be tied in a chair and subjected to 48 hours of old "Leave it to Beaver" episodes. With Roddenberry, Fontana and co. at the helm, they should be able to move beyond this. I still think that ST:TNG will stand on its own as well as doing credit to the ideals of the original. James D. Maloy The Pennsylvania State University Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL UUCP : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 05:00:42 GMT From: schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz) Subject: Re: another ST loose end From: S.R-Freundlich%KLA.WESLYN%WESLEYAN.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu > Since when did the Klingons and Romulans start collaborating on > ship design? In the second romulan episode (gads! I cant remember the title! It's the one with the attractive romulan commander who tries to seduce Spock) the romulans are using klingon ships. Spock even makes some comment to the effect that they are "using klingon designs". I could maybe believe that a small band of klingons could get ahold of a used romulan ship. Scott Schwartz UUCP: {{seismo,ihnp4}!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!schwartz AT&T: (215)-328-8610 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 87 01:53 EST From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Star Trek more news on ST:TNG (straight from David Gerrold on May 9th): casting: not complete; some roles still remain. when all are cast, there will be one big group announcement. cast so far are actors familiar to those who have seen Roots, I Claudius, and St.Elsewhere.....any guesses? starts shooting: May 29th (my birthday!!!) first episode: written by DC Fontana and Gene Roddenberry. includes a scene between the first officer and the captain regarding why captains should stay safely on the ship until the planet is declared safe. Gerrold's episode: "Blood and Fire". Has an alien race which will not be cute and marketable. They make even the Klingons nervous.... Romulans: no decisions made yet. new Bridge: actually smaller, but will shoot bigger. Two turbolifts, a lounge, and three (!) BATHROOMS. Fewer consoles & things. Ship runs itself. Premiere: Oct 3rd. what idiot decided to run this show on Saturday nights? Episodes: 26, of which the final one will be two hours. Families: yup. "after a long day at work home to the wife and kids", adults of whom will be crew members or scientists or *something* - no one along just for the ride. other news.... Harlan Ellison is writing a script for Max Headroom. RUMOR: ST V may have only Shatner and Nimoy because the budget is already some $30 million with only their salaries added on...rest of the crew to do cameos. This better not be true.... George Takei is filming a movie in the Philippines. Convention: SHORE LEAVE July 10-12, Hunt Valley Inn, Hunt Valley MD. Star Trek convention. GOH Nichelle Nichols. info: STAT, Box 6809, Towson MD, 21204. Susan de Guardiola DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 13 May 87 1016-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #228 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 13 May 87 1016-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #228 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 13 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 228 Today's Topics: Books - Attanasio & Lee & Nourse & Alternate World Stories (2 msgs) & Book Banning (4 msgs) & Title Request & 1986 Nebula Awards & Codex Seraphinianus (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 May 87 17:31:24 GMT From: seismo!sun!fluke!ssc-vax!cxsea!blm@RUTGERS.EDU (Brian Matthews) Subject: Re: Radix ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes: >dml@rabbit1.UUCP (David Langdon) writes: >>I have read Radix and his other book (somthing like "Arc of the >>Rainbow"???) and enjoyed both of them thoroughly. I picked up >>Radix when it first came out (in trade!!). >EEEK! I'm glad you enjoyed _Radix_, but pleeeease take another look >at it -- it is nothing anywhere even close to "hard" SF. I'm glad people have enjoyed and are discussing _Radix_. I happened to find a copy in a B.Daltons one day, and because it sounded interesting (and a little like Stuart Gordon's amazing book, _Smile on the Void_), I bought it, even though I'd never heard of _Radix_ or Attanasio. I'm sure glad I did. I have to agree with Kevin that _Radix_ is more fantasy than hard SF, but he outlined why pretty well, so I won't comment more. Just for the record, I believe Attanasio has had 4 books published: _Radix_ _In Other Worlds_ _Arc of the Dream_ _Beastmarks_ The first three have been out in paperback for quite a while. The last one I've only seen in hardback, but that was a number of months ago, so it should be out in paperback soon. I would recommend _In Other Worlds_ and _Arc of the Dream_, but they come nowhere close to _Radix_. They're good, but not phenomenal. Brian L. Matthews {mnetor,uw-beaver!ssc-vax}!cxsea!blm +1 206 251 6811 Computer X Inc. ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 14:31:52 GMT From: moss!hrcca!jean@RUTGERS.EDU (Jean Airey) Subject: Re: Tanith Lee title request lance@LOGICON.ARPA writes: > "Sabella, or the Bloodstone":1, "Kill the Dead":2 > Combined as "Sometimes after Sunset" by SFBC, although the books > are not directly related. "Sabella" is a future vampire novel on > new Red Mars. "Kill the Dead" is about a traveling bard ready to > kill any ghosts that may be bothering you. Tanith Lee also authored two 'Blakes 7' episodes & after writing the second and working with the cast asked Paul Darrow and Michael Keating if she could 'use' them in 'Kill The Dead.' They agreed. I have not been able to get a copy of the book *anywhere* (anyone want to sell?) -- but I believe that the 'traveling bard' is based on a combination of Paul Darrow/Avon -- isn't his name something like Parl Do? and there's a Michael Keating/Vila character in it as well. Jean Airey US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 87 08:13 PDT From: LAYOUT LUNATIC <"12338::MIKE%sc.intel.com"@relay.cs.net> Subject: BOOK REQUEST Ted Nolan (ted@braggvax.arpa) writes: >Does anybody know the name of a Nourse book about two brothers, >initially estranged, who end up somehow in the asteroid belt, >running around in the air corridors of some kind of enemy ship? (I >think there is some sort of alien mcguffin that they are supposed >to have or to have stolen that sets everything off). I'd like to >find this one again. and Leonard Erickson happens to mention in the same digest... >Another Alan E. Nourse book that was recently reissued in paperback >is "Scavengers in Space". Unfortunately all I can say without >giving away major plot points is that it involves the sons of an >asteriod miner vs one of the big mining companies. This doesn't do >justice to it. It has a *lot* of plot twists. Guess what! This is the book that your looking for, Ted! This was was one of my favorite juvenile sf books. I still have a beat up hardcover around in a box someplace. Good plot, good story. mike may MIKE@FOLSM2.INTEL.COM Intel Corp. ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 17:47:18 GMT From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Alternate World stories I am looking for contributions to a list of alternate world stories I am compiling. I used to have one, but I accidentally removed it from my files sometime ago and only recently discocered it missing. The types of stories I am interested in are parallel worlds similar to Earth in physical aspects (one moon, yellow star, same continents). I will post the list once it is complete. If you would like to contribute, just e-mail the titles and authors to me. Thanks. Ken Crist kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu seismo!cvl!kayuucee ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 87 17:04:29 GMT From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: Alternative Histories A good start to any bibliography of alternative histories is B C Hacker & G B Chamberlain Pasts that Might Have Been It is published in C Waugh & M H Greenberg Alternative Histories which also contains a dozen or so examples of the genre. Sorry, no ISBN. Can you BELIEVE the library catalogue doesn't give the ISBN? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 87 12:18:55 CDT From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi) Subject: Book Ban The school superintendent of Bay County, Florida, Leonard Hall, recently banned Ray Bradbury's _Fahrenheit 451_ from classroom use in public schools. The action was instigated by Charles Collins, one of our leading local ignorami. Other books have been banned as well, including _The Red Badge of Courage_, _Never Cry Wolf_, and _Oedipus Rex_. The controversy first exploded when Hall banned _Never Cry Wolf_ because it contained the exclamation "FORCHRISTSAKESTOPITGODAMMIT!" This occurs only once in the story. Several more books were put into various "catagories" (i.e., censored) since then. Hall has refused to comment on the matter of _Fahrenheit 451_, so one can only speculate that he banned it because it's about book banning. The book might make him look bad in the eyes of his sheep, er, students. Just thought you might like to know. Marco Barbarisi Panama City Beach, FL marco@ncsc.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 87 13:47:00 CDT From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi) Subject: More on Book Ban In reference to my previous posting on book bans in the local school district, I've compiled a list of some of the 64 books banned from classroom use by the superintendent. I've included works that I feel would be of some interest to sf-lovers subscribers (even if only in a tangential sense). The banned books were submitted for use by teachers in various classes (English, history, biology,...). I can never remember author's names, so I'm leaving all author's names out of the list. The criteria for which a book is banned is highly subjective and is based on the superintendent's judgement alone. He hasn't read most of the books in question. Any book with the word "goddamn" in it or "a lot of vulgar language" is banned. Here are some of those books: _Lost Horizon_ _Oedipus Rex_ _Watership Down_ _Animal Farm_ _Best Short Stories_ _The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin_ _Fahrenheit 451_ _The Glass Menagerie_ _Lord of the Flies_ _The Canterbury Tales_ _Brave New World_ _The Inferno (Ciardi translation)_ (Maybe Dante should have used 'heck') _Ghosts_ _Oedipus the King_ Marco Barbarisi Panaman City Beach, FL marco@ncsc.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 08:49:13 GMT From: ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster) Subject: Re: More on Book Ban "books banned include..." > _Watership Down_ Say what? Just what is wrong with this book? As I recall, it was made into a 'G' rated movie. So how could it POSSIBLY get banned?!?!? Ed Ahrenhoerster ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 03:25:05 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: More on Book Ban I really don't know what to say. _Oedipus Rex_, _Lost Horizon_, _Lord of the Flies_,....? "Let's ban them, they are obscene...". One minor question: are several other works considered for banning by these openminded Nazis? Maybe, I don't know, the Constitution, the Bible (I DON'T want to get into theology, etc.- just, is this obscene too?), ALL of Shakespeare's plays, anything political, or with social connotations? Dante?.... I don't know about you folks, but this kinda worries me JUST a tad bit. I assume we're talkin' high school here,(unless grade school has changed a LOT 8-). Does your esteemed superintendant assume that the students do not know the words, or concepts? ("Don't mention sex, and they'll NEVER know, so we won't have problems..."). In our high school, these books were commonplace, and even blase', to some extent. I suppose _Don Quixote de La Mancha_, _The Hunchback of Notre Dam_, Herman Melville, etc. are also included (crude, vulgar; crude, disgusting, filthy; racist, crude, vulgar- respectively) I just hope this kind of thing dies FAST, and doesn't spread. ("Truly, milord, I fear 'tis far too late...") Eric C. ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 15:45:29 GMT From: howard@pioneer.arpa (Lauri Howard) Subject: Post holocaust book search My sister is looking for a book she read several years ago. It's post holocaust and people have lost technical knowledge. There is one person, who is really an android, who keeps things working. (This is where things get fuzzy) The android may or may not know he's an android. If he knows he's an android then it may be the person who falls in love with him doesn't know, at first, that he's an android. Finally, there are a lot of groups of three people who practice self immolation. Ring any bells? Thanks from my sister in advance, Lauri Howard howard@pioneer.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 02:54:32 GMT From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea) Subject: Nebula Awards, 1986 Here are the winners of the 1986 Nebula Awards, which were announced on May 2 and reported in the latest *Comics Buyer's Guide*: Best novel: "Speaker for the Dead", Orson Scott Card Best novella: "R&R", Lucius Shephard (IASFM) Best novelette: "The Girl who Fell into the Sky", Kate Wilhelm (IASFM) Best short story: "Tangents", Greg Bear (OMNI) Grand Master: Isaac Asimov Lucius Shepard's story will probably be reprinted in his forthcoming Arkham House collection. Greg Bear's story will appear in "Mathenauts", an anthology of stories related to mathematics edited by Rudy Rucker. I think Card's winning of the Nebula two years in a row, and for a novel and its sequel, is a first. Do any of the sf historians out there know for sure? Fernando Q. Gouvea Department of Mathematics 1 Oxford Street Cambridge, MA 02138 gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA gouvea@harvma1.BITNET ...!harvard!huma1!gouvea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 87 14:05:25 MDT From: William G. Martin Subject: CODEX SERAPHINIANUS Well, I received my long-backordered copy of CODEX SERAPHINIANUS from Publishers Central Bureau yesterday. Now, I know that at least one other person out there has a copy of this -- it was a reference to this book on SF-Lovers that caused me to notice it when it showed up in one of the PCB catalogs -- and I have some queries that I hope someone out there can answer about this. (For the uninitiated, this book is a rather strange art work. It is a several-hundred-page large-format book, entirely hand drawn in the original (that is, no printed text, but all pages are drawn), mixing colored illustrations with pages of text and captions, entirely in an imaginary language, describing a completely alien world (except that the inhabitants appear to be human in form). An extremely surreal exercise, the book is a sort of encyclopedia describing this world and its cultures.) Author: Luigi Serafini Copyright 1983 Abbeville Press [I think -- I'm doing this from memory...] Now, my queries: 1) I understand that the alien language in which this book is written is actually a completely-worked-out real language; that is, the mysterious squiggles are not just random marks, but could be translated to real text. Does anyone know if this is really another language, or just a consistent transliteration of some ordinary language, and, if so, what that language is? (I suspect it would be French; there is one drawing of a manlike creature with a pen as its arm creating a page of text which is French in script -- I suspect that this is a self-portrait of the artist, doing in the book's society what he was doing in reality [that word gets a bit variable in this context! :-)]; creating an alien culture. So I wonder if the text might be really French in a simple substitution cipher -- this funny squiggle means "a", that one means "b", and so on -- as opposed to being an actual different language.) 2) In any case, is a translation into English avilable anywhere? I realize that the book can be viewed as a wonderful puzzle, and figuring out the meaning(s) is a lot of fun, but I neither have the time nor am I up to the effort required. I'd like to cheat and buy a crib sheet... 3) My copy came with the inclusion of an oddly-cut fragment of photograph, perhaps cut from a calendar, with the number "031" written on the back, stuck between the pages. Is this actually the copy number, put in by the artist, indicating that this is copy 31 of ? Or is it just a scrap of paper with no meaning? (Or is it a message from an alien power so subtle and mysterious I cannot interpret it?.... :-) [If it is the real copy number, that certainly is odd. Why would such a low number as "031" be remaindered? I don't know what this cost when new, but its weird enough to have sold at least several hundred copies no matter how much it was, just to the esoteric artsy types...] 4) Can anyone point me to any reviews or commentaries or other sources of information or discussions about this book or the artist? Thanks much! Will Martin wmartin@almsa-1.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 87 10:41:07 GMT From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: CODEX SERAPHINIANUS WMARTIN@SIMTEL20.ARPA writes: >1) I understand that the alien language in which this book is >written is actually a completely-worked-out real language; that is, >the mysterious squiggles are not just random marks, but could be >translated to real text. Does anyone know if this is really >another language, or just a consistent transliteration of some >ordinary language, and, if so, what that language is? A friend has done considerable research on the book, and has found that is is definitely NOT a simple transposition cipher on any known language. No matter what he tried he could not get the letter ratios, specifically the "vowel"/ "consonant" ratios to come out consistently and correctly. Also, he managed to decipher the page numbering scheme, and reports that it is in a very odd prime-number variable base scheme (first level has seven symbols, second level 13, third 23, or something like that.) >2) In any case, is a translation into English avilable anywhere? Not that any of us have ever found (I have about five friends who LOVE the book, including myself) >4) Can anyone point me to any reviews or commentaries or other >sources of information or discussions about this book or the >artist? Douglas Hofstadtler (who wrote Godel, Escher, Bach - a book I also highly recommend) talked about the Codex in one of his Scientific American columns "Metamagical Themas". That's how I was turned on to it. Mike Farren hoptoad!farren ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 13 May 87 1026-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #229 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 13 May 87 1026-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #229 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 13 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 229 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Cabell (3 msgs) & Cherryh & Lewis (4 msgs) & Martin & Tolkien & Yarbro ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 May 87 15:30:08 GMT From: rruxqq!thumper!mike@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Caplinger) Subject: Poul Anderson, "Sargasso of Lost Starships" Has anyone ever seen this anywhere except in the original, I think it was GALAXY, magazine printing? As far as I can tell, it's the only Polesotechnic League/Terran Empire story that hasn't been collected somewhere or another. Mike Caplinger mike@bellcore.com {decvax,ihnp4}!thumper!mike ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 00:10 EST From: WELTY RICHARD P Subject: Re: Cabell jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA writes: > While in the topic of fantasy a few years ago somebody (Del Rey) >repackaged a set of books by James Branch Cabell(??). They were >written in the 1920(s) and thoroughly delightful.The man had a way >with words and an incredibly dry sense of humor. I loved them so >much I lent them away and now I wish I had them back. > > If anyone knows where to get them please tell me. If you haven't >read them check them out. They show up in used bookstores fairly regularly, often in interesting editons. You just have to keep looking! Ordinary nth printings of the Kalki editon (small brown hardcovers, gilt lettering) should go for from $1 to 5. First Kalkis go for $15 to $20. Dust jacketed Kalkis are rare, add $5 (I've only seen two, I bought both of them just for the novelty). The large illustrated editons are marvelous, most are illustrated by Frank C. Pape. Depending on the bookstore, they could go for anywhere from $5 to $40, depending on whether the bookstore knows what it has. For the book collector, Cabell presents many complex bibliographic problems, and I won't go into them further here. EMail me for more info ... (see .signature at end). then ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (ROBERT LEONE) writes: >I'm glad that people out there have read Cabell. Unfortunately, >one of the man's problems is that almost all of his books are >written in the same style. Since he's got scores of volumes in his >rudely interconnected fantasy series, it's tough to get through so >much of a sameness. One would gather that therefore an Asimov or Clarke has more variety in his style. I would beg to differ. A careful reading of the Storisende editon reveals great evolution in Cabell's style. The cultured, correct, cynical prose remains constant throughout. > However, his writing is delightful, at least for a few books. >I'd recommend you read "Jurgen", a delightful send up of censorship >that was nearly barred from the us in 1922 when first published >(long before Miller's Tropic of Cancer(or was it Capricorn?)). >Wonderful obscenity trial that. Then there's "Figures of Earth" >where the man does irreparable damage to the story of the life of >Christ. Then there's "The Silver Stallion", where Arthurian >romance takes it on the chin. With luck, you will be able to find >at least "Jurgen" in the SF paperback section (also try pop or >general lit paperbacks) in a big used bookstore. If it has used >copies of books by E.R. Eddison, it should be big enough to have >"Jurgen" with a high degree of possibility. Come now. Check out the hardback sections of good used bookstores (not just sf specialists) for the original hardcover editions. > For reading purposes, adequate libraries should have some of >Cabell's books. However, the only library I know with a copy of >"Hamlet Had An Uncle..." is the Library of Congress. Some of >Cabell's work is very hard to find. You just have to work at it ... > Perhaps, for this day and age, the important thing about >Cabell's work is that it presents to us a non-Tolkienian model of >purest fantasy. I'd swear Robert Asprin had read some Cabell >before he began working on the Myth Series. I agree whole-heartedly with this. Cabell serves to remind us that fantasy can be written in non-tolkienesque modes. He isn't everyone's cup of tea (although I love his writing dearly). Richard Welty CSNet: welty@crd.ge.COM Internet: welty@ge-crd.ARPA Usenet: {seismo!rochester,ihnp4!chinet}!steinmetz!crd!welty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 87 08:50:39 PDT From: cel@CitHex.Caltech.Edu (Chuck Lane) Subject: Re: Cabell and Jurgen If you want to read Cabell at his best, I'd recommend _Jurgen_ very highly....full of veiled references that are a true test of the twistedness of the reader's mind ;-) . There was a Dover edition a few years back, trade pbk, with illustrations from the original plates. REALLY nice. Larry Niven put a bunch of Cabell references in a couple of his stories....and caused me a major case of deja vu until I figured out what he was doing. Chuck Lane cel@cithex.caltech.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 87 14:06:23 edt From: Bard Bloom Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #211 > However, the only library I know with a copy of "Hamlet Had An > Uncle..." is the Library of Congress. It's not that bad; I found a copy or three without any particular effort. In fact, all the college libraries I checked had respectable collections of Cabell. Two of them were in Virginia -- one library was called the Cabell Library -- so it's a biased sample. But the best collection of the three was in St. Louis. Bard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 87 09:17:47 EDT From: Dave Allen Subject: CJ Cherryh Someone recently mentioned a CJ Cherryh novelette _Scapegoat_. Does anybody know what book/collection this was published in, or where I could find it? A second question. A chronology of her Alliance/Union novels was apparently posted here a few weeks ago. Was this the same one as appeared in _Angel with the Sword_, or _Serpent's Reach_? If not, was it more extensive? I didn't see the posting. Dave Allen davea@LL-VLSI.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 13:12:58 GMT From: mimsy!chris@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis, Narnia and Christian allegory obrien@aero2.aero.org writes: >... the Narnian Chronicles ... are some of the best fantasy ever >written, and yes, I recommend them (almost) unreservedly - except >for the last volume. ... True, the other volumes are also >allegorical, but they stand on their own. This one doesn't. With this I agree. I read the series before I knew anything about Christianity. I thought all were good stories, except the last, which seemed to have events happen at random and characters respond in ways that were entirely nonsensical. I simply did not understand it. Now, in retrospect, I do; but without an explanation, the story makes no sense, so be sure you have one handy. Chris Torek Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept +1 301 454 7690 chris@mimsy.umd.edu seismo!mimsy!chris ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 20:06:20 GMT From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen) Subject: Re: C.S.Lewis gouvea@huma1.UUCP (Fernando Gouvea) writes: >marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes: >>On the subject of comparisons with Tolkien, I should point out >>that Lewis, Tolkien, and Charles Williams (another wonderful >>author) were... > >>A challenging trivia task: try to find the similarities among the >>works of the three authors. > >Besides the fact that they shared a rather unique brand of orthodox >Christianity? I was under the impression that Tolkien was Roman Catholic and Lewis Anglican. As for Williams, I can't imagine that he was an adherent to any form of Christian orthodoxy. >...Not very easy to do. Lewis was the unifying factor in the >group. Tolkien himself did not seem to like Williams all that >much. They were all deeply involved with literature, especially >medieval literature. But I see little similarity among their >books, though Williams is clearly the main influence on "That >Hideous Strength". Tolkien, for example, deeply disliked the >Narnian books. I agree with the statement that Lewis was the nexus. I don't see any sign that Williams influenced Tolkien or vice versa. What is clear is that Lewis was highly receptive to literary influences. The example of "That Hideous Strength" is good, but I see a Tolkien influence there as well as the (predominant) Williams. The reference to "Numinor [sic]" suggests that Tolkien's work was on Lewis' mind. The Logres of THS bears some distant kinship to Tolkien's Atlantis. I think Tolkien also exerted some influence on Narnia, whether he liked the finished work or not. The formula in which rather ordinary mortals are dragged into a world higher and deeper and richer than they had ever imagined, in which they are called upon to fight the battles of Faerie, is the trademark of Tolkien's work (both in essays and in fiction.) Lewis takes it over, combines it with elements of Nesbit (as a perceptive poster remarked), and produces an immediate sensation. No wonder Tolkien (who regretted the children's-story elements of the Hobbit) disliked it. Michael Larsen ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 23:15:08 GMT From: randolph%cognito@Sun.COM (Randolph Fritz From: ) Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis, Narnia and Christian allegory Lewis's Narnia books & his space fantasies *Out of the Silent Planet* and *Perelandra* are among my favorite fantasies also. Yet my favorite Lewis book is *Till We Have Faces*, a re-telling of the Psyche myth as a historical fantasy set in ancient Greece with a major theme of spiritual enlightenment. pete@stc.UUCP (Peter Kendell) writes: >There's a right age at which to read the Chronicles. Too early (say >< 9 yrs) and you'll miss the richness of Lewis's writing. Too late >(say > 15 yrs) and you'll get annoyed at the E. Nesbit style and >pick holes in the Narnian universe. I read them later (from ages 9-15 I was ashamed to admit a taste for "children's books") & did not have a problem with style. As for failures of consistency . . . I know about them but enjoy the books anyway. >I'd be interested to hear of anyone's idea of how Lewis might have >developed Narnia if he had been as obsessive about it as Tolkien >was about Middle Earth. Repeated revisions gave the *Silmarillion* & *Lord of the Rings* an incredible density of concepts, so much so that you can discuss *The Silmarillion* chapter by chapter and *Lord of the Rings* in two or three chapter units and have a fair amount to say in each discussion. If Lewis had endlessly re-written the Narnia books, the way Tolkien re-wrote the Middle Earth books I rather suspect the result would be intensely descriptive prose, like Jack Vance or Samuel Delaney (what a strange comparision!). The books would also, I guess, become quite mystical with the strange concrete mysticism of *Till We Have Faces*. Many people have described these books as allegorical. Better, I think, to call them Christian fantasies. Strictly speaking, allegory involves the substitution of book characters and places for abstractions like virtue, liberty, charity, and so on -- something Lewis does not do in these fantasies. Randolph Fritz sun!randolph randolph@sun.com ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 23:16:49 GMT From: Dan_E_Miller@cup.portal.com Subject: Re:C.S.Lewis On the CS Lewis/Tolkein discussion - if you're interested, you might look into Lewis' autobiography "Surprised by Joy". He talks some (although not much) about Tolkein in there, and you can get a flavor for the relationship between the two. ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 87 15:53:39 GMT From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu (the Clown) Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes) andy@cbmvax (Andy Finkel) writes: >The most annoying thing about book 1 was that it makes the >assumption that the addition of 'wild card' powers would not make a >bit of difference to world history...it still comes out the same. I don't understand. Why does this matter in the least? Furthermore, I am completely confused by the very existence of this complaint. The book announces that it plans to follow the superhero comic genre, and then indeed it follows the superhero comic genre. For this you get annoyed???? I don't get it...somebody explain it to me! Notice that I'm befuddled on two distinct levels. First, just what is wrong, as a hook to hang a book on, with the question, "What if the world were just like ours, only different somehow?"? And second, if you only like certain kinds of genres, why are criticizing it for not being the kind of genre that you like? I generally don't like romances, for example, but I don't criticize them for not being spy thrillers. >And, somewhere, they've found a source of real evil people. Unlike >most people in the 'real' world, they've actually got people who >know they're evil, enjoy being evil, etc. No self-justification, >no differ- ing viewpoints, etc. Again, this is routine comic book genre stuff. Sometimes it's overdone, but sometimes it's just perfect. I wouldn't want it any other way. Matthew P Wiener Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 87 10:49:28 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: Tolkien: Silmarillion versus LOTR To: jml@computer-science.strathclyde.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) Joseph McLean says: > Does anyone agree that the invention of hobbits totally > depreciates the 'reality' of the later ages? I most certainly do not! > Does anyone know why Tolkein introduced them in the first place? > Was it simply to write a story for his children? Well, _The_Hobbit_ was written to be a children's tale. > I mean you can hardly expect a group of 4 foot high plump hairy > 'cute and cuddly' gnomes to rival the grandness and tragedy of the > gods the elves, man, dwarf, the savage early orcs etc unless you > are a child. You have missed one of the most fundamental points of _The_Lord_of_the_ Rings_! Three of the smallest and most insignificant creatures in all of middle earth, the hobbits (well, two hobbits and Smeagol), become the most important beings in the war---the ones that literally turn the tide. ONLY a hobbit could have snuck in to Mordor without attracting Sauron's attention. None of the "grand" beings could have done it. And even in the end, the hobbits were not strong enough to overcome the overwhelming Evil of the Ring---it was destroyed by accident. And if the Ring had not been destroyed, then surely the "grand" Gandalf and Aragorn and all their armies would have been overcome, and Middle Earth would have fallen in to very dark ages. You may even see Christian overtones in that, I suppose: "the last shall become first". But it was one of the most foundational points, if not THE point, of the entire story. And the point would not have come across if the hobbits were not the "plump, hairy, cute and cuddly gnomes" that they were. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University phil@Rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 87 02:53 EST From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Yarbro For fans of Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's St-Germain series: she has contracted to write a new trilogy of vampire novels about **MINOR SPOILER** St-Germain's lover from BLOOD GAMES - Olivia. **END OF SPOILER** Susan de Guardiola DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 14 May 87 0800-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #230 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 14 May 87 0800-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #230 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 14 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 230 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 May 87 12:01:35 GMT From: diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) Subject: Re: Re: Prof. De la Paz contradictions throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: > dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) >> As I remember, the Prof claims to be a Rational Anarchist or >> something of the sort. >I agree with Dan's point, except that the term "rational anarchist" >was a descriptive term rather than the name of an organization or >whatnot, and thus should not be (and was not, in the book) >capitalized. > >To repeat the point. The Prof never outlined in detail his >political philosophy, beyond tagging himself a rational anarchist. >What he meant by this is unclear, I've always assumed that it meant that he was an anarchist, but wasn't going to be fanatical about it. Pragmatic in other words. Hans Rancke University of Copenhagen mcvax!diku!rancke ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 16:13:22 GMT From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? >krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens) >> k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) >>> Mark Stevans >>>Heinlein's avowed intent was to write a book making a case >>>(cases?) for the opposite of various "unquestionable" axioms. >>>Cannibalism, marriage, sex, religion... >>But not homophobia? Oh, sorry, this must be a law of nature. > He took that on in Time Enough For Love. Actually, he "took that on" in "Stranger" as well. In fact, the comment "But not homophobia?" is somewhat mind-boggling as applied to "Stranger", because one of the major scenes in the book was when whos-iz-face claims to have become physically ill when confronted with having sex with Mike. (Granted, group sex, and involving a woman, but definitely sex with Mike was a factor.) Far from ignoring the issue, Jubal tell whos-iz-face that he's a fool, and tells him that if he had an ounce of sense, he'd go back and apologize. In fact, I believe there are *several* scenes where it is implied that Mike and his "family" engage in both homosexual and hetersexual activity. "But not homophobia?" indeed! Hmpf! Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 87 03:43:29 GMT From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes: >I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger >in a Strange Land". I hated it. I hated it so thoroughly that I >will extend that feeling to the author, and state "I hate >Heinlein". I will never again read anything he has written. > >I know I am not alone. There are other Heinlein haters. I >personally know one or two of them. If you have ever angrily >discarded a copy of an RAH book, then come out of the closet! > >I do not wish to detail my opinion of SIASL, because I probably >couldn't do it justice. Can someone more literate than myself >explain, in one thousand words or less, why SIASL is such a >supremely offensive tale? Sure. I won't take a thousand words. It's really rather simple. One central theme of SIASL is that our `sacred values' aren't. It demonstrates how our society is virtually riddled with taboos and superstitions. Just about every `sacred institution' of the U.S. of A. gets a good look and is found wanting, and special scrutiny is reserved for organized religion. But all that is not enough; instead of championing the `little man' against all these rotten organizations, Heinlein has the gall to demonstrate that most people don't just collaborate in their being deceived and exploited, they actually WANT to be led around by their mental nose-rings and resist any attempt to open their eyes to what is going on around them. Now you show me a person who wouldn't be offended by all this. Unless, of course, his or her eyes are already halfway open... A few remarks on your question, Mark. No, do read it, I'm not going to flame you (much). I don't think that judging an author from a single book is fair. You may be touchy on the particular subject. You may have had a bad day when reading it (and then re-reading it just confirms your pre-formed opinion). I think that if a book has *offended* you, you should give the author a second chance, especially if he gets good criticism from others. Strange though it may sound to you, hate is not the worst thing that you can feel about a book. I think that *boredom* and *inertia* are a much harder verdict on a book (and an author). That is not to say that any offensive book is automatically good, but that at least it has *successfully interacted* with you. If you want to go through the world in a rational way, you should try to find out why you feel so offended. Usually, some deep-buried unquestioned belief of yours has been dragged into the open and (in your eyes) ridiculed. Maybe you should ask yourself WHAT belief that is, and WHY you feel so offended - perhaps you feel insecure about it? perry@inteloa.intel.com tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 87 03:50:12 GMT From: perry@inteloa.intel.com Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) Here is another rather long Heinlein article. The offer is still open: if you don't want to read this, hit your favorite key... Kev, this is a response to your answers to my original remarks on your `essay'. Well, something like that. Let's see if we can clarify our positions a bit. > it seemed to me that you really agreed with about half of >"Mark"'s essay without realizing it! Here's why: You accuse Mark of >insisting that the book's society is an anarchy, but you go on to >show that it is *really* a very rigid society. Well, maybe I >misread Mark's essay, but I was under the impression that that was >the point (one of them) that he was trying to make: that no matter >how *much* the characters claimed that they lived in an anarchy, >the fact is that they *don't.* Even if that's not what Mark said, >it is what *I* say, so we agree on this point. Of course I don't disagree with everything in Marks' paper. In fact, in some places he manages to catch the right idea (such as the `social natural selection' that he correctly sees in the lunar society). Still, I disagree with major points. The paper starts out to say "Lunar society is not ruled in a civilized manner - it is an anarchy." Mark comes across as very convinced that Luna is an *anarchic* society, and in fact most of the evils and barbarisms that he deplores are specifically attributed to *lack of (legal, governmental) restraints*. That doesn't sound like what you think you read. I didn't say Luna was a *very rigid* society. It has rules and limits where the `dirtside' culture does not, and is free where Earth culture imposes restrictions. I guess it is a matter of opinion which one should be called `more rigid' than the other. In any case, in my opinion the `loonie' culture is one with quite complex and far-reaching strictures, and definitely not `anarchic'. So obviously we (I and Mark) disagree on a basic premise of his `essay'. From what you said just now, *we* do agree (that loonie culture is *not* an anarchy). >The part where you and Mark disagree is in whether or not the Lunar >society is barbaric or not. Mark says it is; you say it's just the >expected product of environment/living conditions that exist on the >Moon. *I* say that the both uv yuz correct (almost)! I think that >the Moon's society *is* the product of the crowded/tense/etc living >conditions, and that it is *also*, at the same time *very >barbaric*. Just because it arose naturally from the necessities in >this case does not exempt it from being barbaric. It's just that in >this case, a barbaric society has arisen to fit the necessities of >life -- and this is not something new in history. It's the way >other barbaric societies have evolved throughout history. Ah, here we come to the core of our disagreement, as well as my main disagreement with Mark. I think you should be careful with the word `barbaric'. In the word's root (Germanic `barbarians' in Roman Empire eyes), it just describes someone who doesn't share your views on what is `civilized'. Calling another culture `barbaric' merely expresses that you consider it *uncivilized* and that you (probably) abhor some of their social practices - it does not specify any particular properties as the words `democratic' or `feudal' would. It is quite obvious that the `loonies' are barbarians in the eyes of `dirtsiders', and vice versa. Who is to judge, and can there be an objective judgment in any case? If two societies develop from different environments and thus emerge with different moralities, must we call one `barbaric'? Obviously, you share the `dirtsider' view on what is moral and what is not. Your privilege, of course, and even quite rational - after all, you live in a comparable environment. I am quite ready to concede that groundside, the loonie culture would be barbaric, and I guess Heinlein knows it, too. I contend, however, that under the Lunar environment, the typical groundside culture would be equally `barbaric'. The philosophic question that this boils down to is, I think, whether it is right to have a culture that adapts as best as possible to your environment; or whether there is some global, absolute `good morality' that has to be followed no matter what you are in, even if it means starvation or death for your people. A major point of Heinlein's writing (as well as of my own views) is the conviction that *culture* is a relative thing, mutable and rather fickle at times, and that no one has the (moral) right to impose his own convictions on someone else, especially if (s)he has good (survival) reasons for being different. I think, Kev, that you simply misunderstand why I disagree (strongly) with Mark's `essay'. He makes quite an effort to demonstrate that *by earth standards*, the `loonie' culture is barbaric. I do not dispute that at all. What I dispute is that this fact automatically makes it *inferior* to the `dirtside' culture in any objective sense. What I really find offensive in this `essay' is the combination of condescension and ignorance that Mark displays, judging a culture from *his* personal point of view and never doubting a second that *his* way is the *only right* way to see things. (That he is also guilty of lopsided argumentation, faulty arguments and misleading quotations is another issue.) From what you write, I get the impression that to a certain degree you share Mark's conviction. Do you really think that any culture that violates the established rules of western civilization is automatically inferior? I would call that a rather short-sighted position. If, on the other hand, you object to particular aspects of loonie culture for objective reasons (other than that *it isn't like what you're used to*), we should discuss these point for point. Just chanting `barbarism' doesn't make a good argument. >Another little point -- Mannie *does* continually complain that >Terra is sooo "barbaric" compared to Luna. Honest, he does! He even >specifically uses the word "barbaric" more than once. This is maybe >the point Mark was so intent on driving home: that the Moon's >society is really more barbaric than the Earth's (I agree that it >is), no matter *how* many times Mannie says that it is really the >*Moon* that is the less barbaric. As said above, from the loonie's point of view, Earth culture IS barbaric. Besides, never forget that the book is a first-person report of a highly involved individual - just because in Mannie's eyes the `dirtside' culture comes across as a crazy jumble of nonsense, that doesn't mean Heinlein believes so, too. (It is, of course, a good opportunity to dig in some sharp remarks on the way we live...) Heinlein's point is NOT that either Luna or Earth have the *better* or *higher* culture; it is rather that members of both have great troubles dealing fairly with the other one. A rather natural human weakness, would you not agree? >I don't think that you really disagree with Mark as much as you >think you do. I read Mark's essay, then I read your reply, and I >kept thinking, "But TC, you *agree* with him and just don't realize >it! You and Mark only differ over a few points of semantics! What >friends you could be if only you'd realize you are on the same >side!" I see some rather worthwhile ideas realized in loonie society, ideas that are directly or indirectly Heinlein's. (See my original article on Mark's `essay'.) Mark does not even TRY to evaluate its features (such as the death penalty for social offenses) in their context. If it doesn't sound right in Standardtown, USA, it can't be civilized, yeah?! But even if I would reject the fundamental tenets of Luna, I would still concede (without prejudice) that loonie culture is working and though I object to its ideas I have no objective proof of its inferiority (or the superiority of mine). Can you really image Mark accepting such a position? I guess the next step is up to you. If you want to take Mark's position, there isn't much left to talk about. I can't discuss the rationals of the Bible with a christian if he insists that it is `right no matter what'. If, on the other hand, you want to argue rationally about the good and bad spots of Heinlein's Luna, we can continue this discussion. Might be interesting... >This is not meant to anger you. I'm not trying to get you to scream >back, "NO NEVER NEVER I WOULD NEVER AGREE WITH MARK NEVER YOU ARE >ACCUSING ME FALSELY ETC ETC ETC!!!" This is what I see. Maybe this >problem can be reconciled. It is said that an idea or philosophy is not responsible for the people who claim to adhere to it. In the same vain, I disclaim any responsibility for people who happen to agree with me on some points. Even if the agreement is just imaginary... >BTW -- I really enjoyed reading your posting. It was one of the few >that came across as calmly objective, instead of frothing that Mark >had pissed on your favorite author. Thank you. I just happen to believe that rational argument is a good base for getting your opinion across - if it's a rational one. Yelling at people just makes them cover their ears. Though I can get a bit cynical at times... perry@inteloa.intel.com tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1987, 15:12:04 EDT From: Brent Hailpern Subject: flame on! (Heinlein discussion) Zigetty states: >...How anyone can take a blatantly militaristic and xenophobic >piece of raw hate like Starship Troopers as a work of intelligent >(and typical work) is beyond my comprehension. I can't believe that someone finally said something that could draw me into this debate on Heinlein! But here goes... I enjoyed Starship Troopers - not because I want to live in such a environment or because I want to go to boot camp, but because it stretched the imagination in a couple of reasonable "what if" directions. (1) How does a society react in a life-or-death battle with an "inscruitable" enemy (in retrospect it is interesting to compare this story with Ender's Game), (2) What are the ramifications of a society where citizenship depends on public/military service (a proposal expressed by some of our current presidential candidates), (3) What goes through a person's mind when he/she goes from an individual to a member of a military team? I can't imagine so hating the notion of military life that you can't look beyond the world he set up and enjoy the ideas he is playing with or even just the adventure story. But I guess that is what makes horse races... Brent Hailpern bth@ibm.com ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 14 May 87 0821-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #231 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 14 May 87 0821-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #231 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 14 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 231 Today's Topics: Films - Phantom of the Paradise & 2001 (3 msgs) & Bad Movies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 May 87 20:35:27 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley) Subject: Re: Good F&SF Films you might not have thought of... barry@borealis.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes: >OF DR. LAO (not great, but engaging), PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE, I'm glad to see that someone else appreciates this film, which I think is one of the best movies I've ever seen. It is also one of the most difficult films to find; apparently the studio that released it didn't make much of an effort to distribute it widely, so it wasn't seen by many people when it first came out (1974) and no one was interested in rereleasing it or in television rights. It has been shown on cable TV stations (TBS at least) and I believe it's out on videocassette, but since I don't have cable TV or a VCR, that doesn't do me any good. It was written and directed by Brian DePalma (one of his first films) and stars (among others) William Finney (I think) and Paul Williams who wrote the music & lyrics to all the film's songs. (Don't let this put you off; Paul Williams is good in this!) This film is a rock & roll version of the Phantom of the Opera with elements of the Faust legend thrown in. William H. Ansley csnet: ansley@buffalo.csnet uucp: ..!{allegra,decvax,watmath,rocksanne}!sunybcs!ansley bitnet: ansley@sunybcs.bitnet, csdansle@sunyabvc usmail: Computer Science Dept. 226 Bell Hall SUNYAB, Buffalo, NY 14260 ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 87 17:11:54 GMT From: ames!styx!auspyr!mick@RUTGERS.EDU (Mick Andrew) Subject: Re: 2001: slow down, you move too fast obnoxio@BRAHMS.BERKELEY.EDU says: > I've seen the movie two or three dozen times at least over the > years, Me too. However, I cannot go a day further without airing these comments (Kubrick flames?). It is very interesting to read to read the books The making of 2001 (general discussion of the filming etc.) Lost worlds of 2001 (Arthur C. Clarke's retrospective) The latter has an alternative storyline which I likes much more in terms of sf style, but which was obviously(?) unfilmable. The former looks at things much more from Stanley Kubrick's viewpoint, and probably explains why he did some of the things he did with Clarke's plot. (How did Clarke let him get away with it???)($$!) When the movie first came out, many people were totally confused by it. "Read the book" was the re-assuring response from those of us who had. However, I maintain that the confusion was *totally* deliberate and intentional on Kubrick's part. The 2001 novel makes it very clear what is going on. With a few simple changes Kubrick could have made the movie just as clear also. To be specific 1) The ape (Moonwatcher) finds the monolith, and then starts banging bones together. The movie could make it clear that the monolith has some kind of of mind control at this point by cutting more often between the monolith and the ape, maybe a close up of his eyes... 2) Probably the most important sequence in the whole movie is when the monolith on the moon emits its signal to Jupiter (or Saturn!). The whole point here is that the monolith was buried with a big magnetic marker (mentioned in passing in the dialogue; a simple extra sentence making this clear would not have gone amiss). It was supposted to be found. So, when the monolith first sees the light of day, it shrieks. The movie did not make it clear that the sun was rising over the exposed monolith for the *first* time. We simply had Kubrick's famous shot of the sun atop the slab (how did it get so high so fast). All one of the scientist's needed to say as they descended into the pit was "Just think. It hasn't seen the light of day for x million years" Hey presto; movie goers get the drift. 3) The star gate. This section was truly awful. We see a monolith drifting in space, then suddenly get treated to an LSD trip. In the book, Bowman says, "My God, its full of stars", and enters. Explicitly. I maintain that with some "Cinematography 101" changes the movie would be a lot more comprehensible. Unfortunately, as I said at the beginning, Kubrick admits to being into metaphysical aspects of the film (which Clarke is explicitly not). In the "Making" book, Kubrick talks about letters he received about the movie, and mentions one in particular from some woman which goes on at great length about her interpretation of the movie, what this and that *really meant*. Kubrick was really impressed by this one. (I thought it was a load of codswallop). I guess my problem is that I would prefer the film to be straight sci-fi, and not get sidetracked on making the audience think about the meaning of life, the universe and everything. Feel free to agree, disagree and flame at will Mick {sdencore,necntc,cbosgd,amdahl,ptsfa,dana}!aussjo!mick {styx,imagen,dlb,gould,sci,altnet}!auspyr!mick ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 22:30:18 GMT From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!neighorn@RUTGERS.EDU (Steven C. From: Neighorn) Subject: Re: Good SF Movies perry@inteloa.intel.com writes: > >One thing: 2001 gives a MUCH more realistic impression about space >travel than, say, Star Wars. Interplanetary space is LOTS of >(largely) empty space between the interesting spots. Interplanetary >travel is *long* and *lonely*. In fact, being on such a voyage, >BOREDOM is certainly one of the main problems. I think that 2001 is >a real success for giving a realistic impression of an >interplanetary voyage. Actually, so far it's the best one I have >ever seen (no, experienced!). I believe that this creates the magic >of 2001, the reason why many people (including me) go and see it >again and again... because there's no plot to be spoiled; the mood >comes again, even better than before. > >Of course, tie-fighters making U-turns on the spot and dodging >asteroids and enemy fire are much more exciting. Nothing against >Star Wars (I enjoyed it, too, as an archetypical fantasy saga). It >just appeals to rather different instincts in us, and if you go >into a cinema expecting the wrong thing, you're virtually certain >to be disappointed. Try to see 2001 again in a LARGE cinema, and >try to *give yourself up* to the (physical and mental) images that >Kubrick creates. Don't *think*, *feel*. Maybe you'll like it. I agree. It is also important to remember the vast differences in the level of technology between Star Wars and 2001. Star Wars takes place 'A Long Time Ago in a Galaxy Far Far Away'. This gets them off the hook for taking liberties with our physics. I mean who can say for sure what Hyper Space is, and what the performance characteristics of a Twin Ion Engine fighter will be? Given the Star Wars universe, its rules and regulations, I was able to accept anything the movie presented me. I loved the close-order combat scenes (they used World War II fighter-plane film footage as a basis for the scenes like the MF's escape from the Death Star), as implausible as it is for ships traveling at such speeds to respond they way they did. The makers of the film set up the rules, and as the viewer wanting to have an enjoyable movie-going experience, I followed the rules. Then we have 2001. Same Galaxy as ours. Almost same time. We have Russians, Commercial airlines, friendly flight attendants, and recognizable locales on the earth and moon. I mean this movie is positively 20th century (plus 1/365th). We must accept a few technological advances - full scale moon bases, orbital space stations, VVVLSI computers, Ion driven ships capable of fractional light speeds (good fractions too), and long distance phone calls that only cost a couple dollars. It doesn't take *that* big of a stretch of the imagination to believe in the technology of 2001. I felt the pacing of the film was perfect. There was no need to rush through scenes that the audience would better enjoy if given the time to absorb all of what was transpiring. How many films spend two minutes watching a flight attendant walk down the aisle? Yet in 2001 they did, and it was fascinating. Star Wars filled a niche. 2001 filled a niche. I have seen Star Wars ~30 times, and 2001 half that. When people ask me which I like better, I tell them apples and oranges, or more correctly, monoliths and light sabres. Steven C. Neighorn Portland Public Schools (503) 249-2000 ext 337 tektronix!{psu-cs,reed}!qiclab!neighorn ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 87 06:29:58 GMT From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: 2001: slow down, you move too fast Note--while I've seen the movie quite often, I've read the book only once, a long time ago, and I've not read much of the behind the scenes stuff. mick@auspyr (Mick Andrew) writes: >When the movie first came out, many people were totally confused by >it. Who cares? My mom and I weren't. These people were totally confused because they were looking for the wrong things in the film. >"Read the book" was the re-assuring response from those of us who >had. I eventually did read the book, after already seeing the film several times. It didn't add anything to my understanding of the film--indeed I disliked how it undercut the film. >However, I maintain that the confusion was *totally* deliberate and >intentional on Kubrick's part. I say bravo for Kubrick then! I find it sickening when filmmakers make sure their production is "marketable". >The 2001 novel makes it very clear what is going on. Yes. And compared to the movie, I found it dull and unchallenging. >With a few simple changes Kubrick could have made the movie just as >clear also. And by doing so, he would have ended up stepping all over the mood that he was in fact trying to present. >1) The ape (Moonwatcher) finds the monolith, and then starts > banging bones together. The movie could make it clear that the > monolith has some kind of of mind control at this point by > cutting more often between the monolith and the ape, maybe a > close up of his eyes... I thought it was exceedingly obvious that the monolith changed things for the apes. Big black monolith, dawn, apes get all excited, etc? Why does the film need *more* cuts back and forth between the ape and the monolith? I thought that showing any was a bit excessive. And whether it's via "mind control" or some other technique is irrelevant. Who cares? (Answer: all the people who were totally confused.) >2) Probably the most important sequence in the whole movie is when > the monolith on the moon emits its signal to Jupiter (or > Saturn!). I wouldn't say it's the most important sequence, although it's probably the most significant plotwise. But 2001 is much more than its plot. > The whole point here is that the monolith was buried with a big > magnetic marker (mentioned in passing in the dialogue; a simple > extra sentence making this clear would not have gone amiss). Huh? What's the point of two sentences, when one will do? Kubrick was interested in the scientists' digesting the significance of their discovery. And he isn't responsible for whether you were observant or were busy chewing your popcorn too loudly at the time. > It was supposted to be found. So, when the monolith first sees > the light of day, it shrieks. The movie did not make it clear > that the sun was rising over the exposed monolith for the > *first* time. Intelligent minds figured this out eventually. > We simply had Kubrick's famous shot of the sun atop the slab > (how did it get so high so fast). Who cares "how did it get so high so fast"? You're trying to kill the movie with irrelevant techno-details. Begone, ye base varlet. > All one of the scientist needed to say as they descended into > the pit was "Just think. It hasn't seen the light of day for x > million years" Hey presto; movie goers get the drift. Hey, yet another minor techno-detail. I don't care if movie goers get the drift--I put it together without too much difficulty. And if you only find out when someone tells you later--so what? The plot is the least important part of the film. >3) The star gate. This section was truly awful. We see a monolith > drifting in space, then suddenly get treated to an LSD trip. No. We see the monolith, and then space starts to open up, first on the one side, and then the other, as the Varese(?) "Atmospheres" theme, with its insanely beautiful gibberish, explodes on us. I would not know how the sequence that follows compares to an LSD trip, having never experienced the latter. Even if it does, so what? Are you saying that hyperspace should be portrayed as in Star {Trek,Wars}, and that other portrayals are "inaccurate"? We're getting Bowman's view of what had never been experienced by human senses before--why should they fit in some standard picture? Somehow the common mixed with the weird, caused by brain signals getting scrambled, seems as close as film could get to genuine synasthesia, say. I took the slow renormalization of the images as some sort of cosmic color control adjustments--but making this any more specific is both pointless, unnecessary and stupid. > In the book, Bowman says, "My God, it's full of stars", and > enters. Explicitly. I agree that the Bowman line in the book is superb. Indeed, I found that it was the only thing that made the book worth reading. "Explicitly?" I don't get the point of this. Do you mean that you were so confused by the film that you didn't notice anything happening at this point?? I don't think so, but I can't find any other interpretation of the above. >I maintain that with some "Cinematography 101" changes the movie >would be a lot more comprehensible. And incredibly less effective/interesting. Thank the stars that Kubrick took "Cinematography 401"! Seriously, when was the last time you could compare a film with 2001? >Unfortunately, as I said at the beginning, Kubrick admits to being >into metaphysical aspects of the film (which Clarke is explicitly >not). Unfortunate for *you*. >In the "Making" book, Kubrick talks about letters he received about >the movie, and mentions one in particular from some woman which >goes on at great length about her interpretation of the movie, what >this and that *really meant*. Kubrick was really impressed by this >one. (I thought it was a load of codswallop). So what? I'm sure it really *was* a load of codswallop. So this woman never took a course in critical analysis, never learned how to identify themes, never became an intellectual, never went to Radcliffe.... There are worse fates. (Like becoming an intellectual, etc, and still end up writing loads of codswallop. It's been known to happen.) My own interpretations of the film are probably much less embarrassing, but then I've had lots of practice at this sort of game. >I guess my problem is that I would prefer the film to be straight >sci-fi, and not get sidetracked on making the audience think about >the meaning of life, the universe and everything. At least you're honest. If you would prefer the film to be "straight sci-fi", and it wasn't, it's sort of silly to then belabor the fact that it isn't. Enjoy the film for what it is, not what you prefer it to be. Matthew P Wiener Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 May 87 14:54:07 CDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: Bad movies Speaking of bad movies...was anyone else unlucky enough to see "The Star Crystal" (or maybe it was "Space" Crystal - so bad I've blanked part of my memory of it)? This was such a turkey that the people who stayed all the way to the end (not many) were harassing the guy taking tickets at the door "you should be ashamed to show that movie in your theater!" - leaving the poor guy all flustered, wondering what was wrong. Then there are the Miles O'Keefe "spaghetti sword & sorcery" movies...sheesh! Cheers, Rich ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 14 May 87 0847-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #232 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 14 May 87 0847-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #232 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 14 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 232 Today's Topics: Books - Herbert & Rosenberg & Smith (4 msgs) & Zelazny (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 May 87 09:20:58 EDT To: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: What is Hard SF? From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa Dave, "Dragon of the Deep" may be an alternate title, but the version I have is "Under Pressure". I agree with you-- Herbert seems to have his stuff together on this one. It is probably my favorite submarine story, with the possible exception of "Blow Negative!" (author forgotten, story hilarious). Regards, Dave Wegener 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 May 87 15:21:28 EDT From: martinte@wpafb-fdl.arpa Subject: Rosenberg's "Guardian of the Flame" series This is my first time writing to the net, so please be patient. I have been reading Rosenberg's series, and I find it to be quite entertaining. Since I haven't seen any messages on these books, I thought that I would solicit opinions from the sf gallery(** be kind, I'm new **). Does anyone know just how many books are planned for this series? Answers will be greatly appreciated(** anything to get off of Heinlein **). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 May 87 14:26:08 pdt From: rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Arthur Evans) Subject: Lensman stuff To excuse a book being sexist, wooden, and generally unbelieveable because it`s forty or fifty years old is a bit silly, seems to me -- especially the `wooden` part -- was it impossible to write good fiction before the turn of the century? I thought Dickens had rather a way with words, myself. As far as sexism goes, there were quite a few people writing on women`s rights during the 1800`s -- including Harriet Taylor and John Stuart Mill, and Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley. There are examples from earlier periods, of course, but the point is, there isn`t any magic date before which we can excuse either bad writing or general bigotedness just because it was "before it was an issue". Of course, there is always a certain attachment to the first books we read, or the first Science Fiction or Fantasy book we read, et cetera, as I find myself attached to, say, Howard`s Conan books or _The_Wind_ in_the_Willows_, but that`s sort of a different issue. (By the way, I didn`t mean to imply that _Wind in the Willows_ was wooden, sexist, or anything else -- it was just an example ...) Splitting Hares, Arthur ARPA: rthr@ucscb.ucsc.edu (school) UUCP: ucbvax!ucscc!ucscb!rthr decvax!microsoft!sco!arthure (work) ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 00:23:55 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series hjg@bunker.UUCP (Harry J. Gross): > Actually, I thoroughly enjoyed the series. It was written a > long time ago, and perceptions were different back then. One must > take that into account when reading it, or you will probably be > offended. (Unless, of course, you are a male chauvenist p*g :-) > As to the science, it is truly off base. Of course, when it was > written, the idea of an all pervasive stuff refered to as 'ether' > was quite popular, and Michalson-Morley had not yet disproved it. > Hence, much of the pseudo-science is _way_ off base. I agree that some of the science is off. The "ether" was disproved, however, in 1882 (says the Brittanica; I thought it was 1902) and GALACTIC PATROL is copyright 1937 (this is certain, I looked it up; I guess the earlier books weren't serialized, they're copyright 1948 and 1950, respectively). The impression I got from the Lensman books was that the "ether" was a useful abstraction unrelated to reality; I have heard more recently that some physicists use a (mathematical, not real) "ether" in their theories, which seems consistent with the above. The worst scientific points are: (1) neutralization of inertia yielding FTL travel; I doubt it, and (2) they still use punched cards. C'mon, even without transistors (see above; the early books came about 10 years too soon) you'd think he'd have come up with something better! (Also (3): engineers still use slide rules aka slipsticks; Smith had no feel for the future of computers.) >I expect to be severly flamed by all who _hate_ Doc Smith, but I >anticipate that there are a significant number of supporters, too >:-) One here. Rereading GALACTIC PATROL (going through them in order), Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, OH 44060 {decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU +01 216 255 1080 ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 87 12:41:06 GMT From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!aplvax!jwm@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Meritt) Subject: Lensmen series "David A. Kyle, friend and confident of 'Doc' Smith, has been authorized by the Smith Estate to continue the astonishing adventures of this intergalactic brotherhood, as they search and destroy the evil remnants of Eddora" I've read "The Dragon Lensman" and "Lensman from Rigel". The style is very close, the environment extremely close, but the sociological environment is more recent. The time period of the books I've seen is concurrent with the "Children of the Lens" period, although the central character is the non-human in the title. James W. Meritt John Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory seismo!decuac!aplcen!aplvax!jwm ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 87 05:19:51 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Lensman stuff From: rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Arthur Evans) >To excuse a book being sexist, wooden, and generally unbelieveable >because it`s forty or fifty years old is a bit silly, seems to me >-- especially the `wooden` part -- was it impossible to write good >fiction before the turn of the century? > [...] there isn`t any magic date before which we can excuse >either bad writing or general bigotedness just because it was >"before it was an issue". Well, yes and no. Certainly there was good writing around before the New Wave. Certainly there was feminist writing around before the sixties. But when reading older works it's still important to remember the context and society they are embedded in. When the Lensman book were written the standards of the genre were very different. Nowadays the market would not stand for such wooden writing; then it would. Shall we castigate 'Doc' Smith for not rising above his time in that way? If we like, I suppose. A more touchy issue is the sexism of his works (and by extension, racism in pre-civil rights works, and so on). And here I think it is important to bear in mind the society that the work came out of. In the 1930s the idea of a truly non-sexist society had hardly occurred to most people. The possibility was simply not a part of most people's conception of the world. Feminism then meant something different from what it means to us now (well, to me, anyway; I won't presume to speak for everyone). Some books seen as feminist then would not seem so now (Edward Bellamy's LOOKING BACKWARD talked a bit about the liberation of women, mostly in reference to 21st century dress styles...) To write a truly non-sexist book, a book in which gender makes little difference, requires that the possibility have occurred to the writer, in detail. When the idea of a non-sexist world first took root in popular American culture, it was a big change, a dramatically new idea. (Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that most people *want* such a society. I'm simply saying that people have generally been exposed to the idea of such a society, and I don't think that was true in the thirties. But then again, I'm 22 and would be happy to hear from anyone with actual experience of the decades in question.) I don't think it's fair to criticize Smith, or any writer, for not having a vision as far beyond his society as Smith's would have had to be to avoid being seen as sexist fifty years later. Of course, writers with that kind of vision are often the best writers, directly because of their vision. But no one has been claiming that Smith was any more than an enjoyable (or not) hack, who churned out goshwow space opera by the dozens of pages. (At least, I'm not. I enjoy his works, but not in anything like the sense I enjoy LeGuin or Delany. I mean, good grief.) Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 87 01:04:12 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Bad Zelazny (was: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes)) rick@unix.macc.wisc.edu.UUCP (Rick Keir) writes: >eric@hippo.UUCP (Eric Bergan) writes: >> BTW, despite being a Zelazny fan, I found the two Zelazny >>stories to be some of his worst writing... > > Oh, hardly! Zelazny can be much worse than this: try an >tell me what "RoadMarks" was about, for example. Z's stories here >are not his best, but they certainly are better than many of the >plotless things he's turned out lately. (By the way, I liked >Roadmarks, and in fact everything of his I've read: its just that >some stories leave me feeling like I'm reading the equivalent of >Book of Kells illumination being used to illuminate a shopping >list. His Wild Cards stories, on the other hand, are not classics, >but are readable and memorable. One of the most puzzling sub-plots in _Roadmarks_ to me was the one where the very tall, thin guy who was always dressed all in one color and always planning some piece of villianry was captured and carried off by a big guy with a great tan and golden eyes. (Please excuse me if I don't have all the details right; it's been quite a while since I've read the book.) I really felt like I must have missed a chapter somewhere. I would have shrugged it off as just another unsolved mystery except that not long after _Raodmarks_ I read _Doc Savage: His Apocolyptic Life_ by Philp Jose Farmer. This book (a 'biography' of Doc Savage - Man of Bronze, in which Farmer's premise is that Doc Savage (and Tarzan and Phineas Fogg and Sherlock Holmes and Moriarty and I can't remember who else) were (and in some cases are) real people and all related in some incredibly complex fashion AND all mutants caused by prenatal exposure to the same radioactive meteorite) provides plenty of evidence that the big guy with a tan in _Roadmarks_ is Doc Savage and the tall, thin guy is Johnny Sunlight (I think), his arch-nemesis. Of course I've never read any Doc Savage adventures or I assume this all would have been obvious to me immediately. Apparently Zelazny decided to have a little fun with his readers while paying homage to a science fiction character (I assume) he has a great deal of affection for. In _The Changing Land_, Zelazny also has a lot of inside jokes with which he pays homage to at least two fantasy authors: Manly Wade Wellman's _The House on the Borderland_ (I have a horrible feeling I may have the author wrong here) and Howard Phillips Lovecraft's (and others, particularly Frank Belknap Long's) Cthulhu Mythos. I mention Long specifically because his short story, "The Hounds of Tindalos" is almost directly referred to; there are creatures in Zelazny's book called the hounds of Thandalos (again please pardon any errors - I am referring to rather old memories here). These types of games authors play fascinate me. I have a feeling I missed a lot of other references. I would be very interested to hear any other speculations or educated guesses regarding these books, either by e-mail or news. William H. Ansley csnet: ansley@buffalo.csnet uucp: ..!{allegra,decvax,watmath,rocksanne}!sunybcs!ansley bitnet: ansley@sunybcs.bitnet, csdansle@sunyabvc usmail: Computer Science Dept. 226 Bell Hall SUNYAB, Buffalo, NY 14260 ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 87 16:34:58 GMT From: seismo!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Bad Zelazny (was: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes)) ansley@sunybcs.UUCP (William Ansley) writes: >rick@unix.macc.wisc.edu.UUCP (Rick Keir) writes: >> Oh, hardly! Zelazny can be much worse than this: try an >>tell me what "RoadMarks" was about, for example. Z's stories here >>are not >[stuff deleted] > Of course I've never read any Doc Savage adventures or I assume > this all would have been obvious to me immediately. Apparently > Zelazny decided to have a little fun with his readers while paying > homage to a science fiction character (I assume) he has a great > deal of affection for. I though Roadmarks was great, very absorbing; you had to wait until the very end to understand the various plot entanglements, and this kept me interested much more than those books where you can look at the last page and say "Yeah, that's what I figured would happen from reading the cover blurb." Although my only "Doc Savage" exposure was a single comic about 10 years ago, I knew him right off. There were lots of other familiar details - the incredible Hulk (I think), the "master of Kung-fu", the 6-million-dollar man/Wolverine, the alien death machine (who I just realized now is probably Mickey Finn from Callahan's cross-time saloon, which I only read yesterday), the "what-if" vignette of Hitler...and so entertainingly done that you don't really need to understand the references to enjoy the book. I would highly recommend it! John ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 87 22:17:00 GMT From: sysmsh%ulkyvx.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: re: why is Merlin so dumb - amber spoilers! someone. Typically the 'someone' is getting the whole story. Has anyone given any thought to the idea that Merlin may be telling the story to someone who Merlin may not want to totally confide in? Or....when Merlin was eating at the Pit with "Bill Roth" (wearing silver striped pants and a silver shirt with black cloak i.e. who is he *REALLY*?) anyhow....Merlin asks Bill Roth if he would represent Luke in a house of amber hearing. "Bill" is shocked and suddenly pleased. Suppose that the two books here are actually Merlin's testimony at such a hearing. He may be leaving things out deliberatly as a favor towards certain individuals, i.e. Jurt. Remember, Jurt is a half brother and they share the same mother. I'm interested in corresponding with any other amber speculators and am anxiously awaiting the third book. I don't see how he(Z.) can wrap things up in one more book, but if it is testimony, he could leave us out of the details too!! Mark Hittinger University of Louisville Louisville, Ky 40292 Bitnet: sysmsh@ulkyvx Internet: sysmsh%ulkyvx.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 19:38:47 GMT From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) Subject: Re: Bad Zelazny (was: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes)) john13@garfield.UUCP writes: >I though Roadmarks was great, very absorbing; you had to wait until >the very end to understand the various plot entanglements, and this >kept me interested much more than those books where you can look at >the last page and I liked Roadmarks too, though I'm not sure why. I too didn't get a lot of the references, thought I got that all-too familiar sense that the author was lurking back there somewhere having just made a terribly funny joke. Your remark about having to wait until the end to understand things - this strikes me as one of Zelazny's greatest strengths and also his greatest weakness as a writer. On the one hand, he leaves a lot of questions lingering in the mind of the reader - there are many different things going on in his books, and its hard not to wonder what explains it all. Unfortunately, sometimes he doesn't come back and deal with them by the time the whole things's over - while he answers the major questions, all those little things that puzzle you along the way seem to go forgotten. Anyone else get this impression? Dan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 May 87 0934-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #233 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 18 May 87 0934-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #233 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 18 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 233 Today's Topics: Books - Alternate Worlds & Codex Seraphinianus & Name Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 May 87 18:27:03 GMT From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Alternate Worlds Book list Well, since I haven't received any replies in the past few days, I figure that I have all that are going to come in. I would like to thank Kris Stephens, Jed Hartman, Robert Firth and Evelyn C. Leeper for responding to my request. I appreciate it. Here is the list of books and authors I have gotten. Titles in `""' are short stories and I included the magazines or collections they appear in when possible. Castaways in Time Robert Adams Of Quest and Kings Robert Adams Seven Magical Jewels of Ireland Robert Adams "Danger: Religion!" (Neanderthal Planet) Brian W. Aldiss Eighty-Minute Hour Brian W. Aldiss Frankenstein Unbound Brian W. Aldiss Malacia Tapestry Brian W. Aldiss "If I Had Been H. Tojo in 1941" (Snowman--If I Had Been) Louis Allen Alteration Kingsley Amis Guardians of Time Poul Anderson High Crusade Poul Anderson Midsummer Tempest Poul Anderson Time After Time Allen Appel When The Bells Rang Anthony Armstrong "Earth Is Room Enough" Isaac Asimov End of Eternity Isaac Asimov "Fall of Frenchy Steiner" (Moorcock--Best from New Worlds) Hillary Bailey Young Adolf Beryl Bainbridge Twilight Man Otto Basil "Through Road No Whither" (Benford--Hitler Victorious) Greg Bear Hitler Victorious (anthology) Gregory Benford "Valhalla" (Hitler Victorious) Gregory Benford "Father and Son" (Hole in the Lead Apron) Jesse Bier "Sound of Thunder" (R Is for Rocket) Ray Bradbury "Thor Meets Captain America" (Benford--Hitler Victorious) David Brin How It Happened Here Kevin Brownlow Quicksand John Brunner Times Without Number John Brunner "Never Meet Again" (Benford--Hitler Victorious) Algis Budrys "Battle of Dorking" (Moorcock--Before Armageddon) George Chesney Bomb That Failed Roland Clark England under Hitler Comer Clarke Matter of Time Glen Cook Burning Mountain Alfred Coppel Hubert's Arthur Baron Corvo Operation Sealion Richard Cox "Branches of Time" David R. Daniels Lest Darkness Fall L. Sprague De Camp Wheels of If L. Sprague De Camp "Passage in Italics" (F&SF 5/72) William Dean SS-GB Len Deighton Emperor of If Guy Dent Wrack & Rule Bradley Denton "Jon's World" (Derleth--Times to Come) Philip K. Dick Man in the High Castle Philip K. Dick Moscow Option David Downing Second Front Now: 1943 Walter S. Dunn Relatives Geo. Alec Effinger "Target: Berlin!" (Silverberg--New Dimensions 6) Geo. Alec Effinger "Red Skins" (F&SF 1/81) Gordon Eklund "Sail On, Sail On" (Knight--Century of SF) Philip Jose Farmer Gate of Time (Two Hawks from Earth) Philip Jose Farmer Infinity's Web Sheila Finch "Reichs-Peace" (Benford--Hitler Victorious) Sheila Finch Dragon Waiting John M. Ford "Intersections" (IASFM 10/26/81) John M. Ford "Mandalay" (IASFM 10/79) John M. Ford "Out of Service" (IASFM 7/80) John M. Ford "Slowly By, Lorena" (IASFM 11/80) John M. Ford "If Hitler Had Invaded England" (Post 4/16-30/60) C. S. Forester "What If Hitler Got the Bomb?" (Polsey--What If?) Robert C. Fried "The Forest of Time" Michael F. Flynn Lord Darcy Investigates Randall Garrett Too Many Magicians Randall Garrett "Do Ye Hear the Children Weeping?" (Benford--Hitler Vict.) Howard Goldsmith Great Kings' War Roland Green The Third World War Sir John Hackett Rebel in Time Harry Harrison A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah! Harry Harrison Ivanhoe Gambit Simon Hawke Khyber Connection Simon Hawke Nautilus Sanction Simon Hawke Pimpernel Plot Simon Hawke Timekeeper Conspiracy Simon Hawke Zenda Vendetta Simon Hawke When Adolf Came Martin Hawkin Job: A Comedy of Justice Robert Heinlein The Number of the Beast Robert Heinlein White Lotus John Hersey Proteus Operation James P. Hogan October the First Is Too Late Fred Hoyle "Flight That Failed" (Conklin--SF Adventures in Dimension) E. M. Hull Times-Square Samuria Robert B. Johnson If the South Had Won Civil War MacKinlay Kantor Different Drummer William M. Kelley Unfought Battle Jon Kimche "Two Dooms" (Kornbluth--Best of C. M. Kornbluth) C.M. Kornbluth Whenabouts of Burr Michael Kurland Lammas Night Katherine Kurtz Assignment in Nowhere Keith Laumer Beyond the Imperium Keith Laumer Other Side of Time Keith Laumer Worlds of the Imperium Keith Laumer It May Happen Yet Edmund Lawrence Lathe of Heaven Ursula K. Le Guin The Big Time Fritz Leiber "Catch that Zeppelin" (F&SF 3/75) Fritz Leiber Change War Fritz Leiber Destiny Times Three Fritz Leiber "Sidewise in Time" (Asimov--Before the Golden Age) Murray Leinster Last Years Oscar Lewis "Moon of Ice" (Amazing 3/82; Benford--Hitler Victorious) Brad Linaweaver If Britain Had Fallen Norman Longmate Circumpolar Richard Lupoff "Country of the Mind" (Analog 5/75) W. MacFarlane "Heart's Desire and Other Simple Wants (Analog 4/71) W. MacFarlane "Meet a Crazy Lady Week" (Analog 8/70) W. MacFarlane "One-Generation New World" (If 3/71) W. MacFarlane "Ravenshaw of WBY, Inc." (Analog 3/70) W. MacFarlane Englishman's Castle Philip Mackie Invasion: The German Invasion of England, July 1940 Kenneth Macksey Emerald Elephant Gambit Larry Maddock Flying Saucer Gambit Larry Maddock Golden Goddess Gambit Larry Maddock Time Trap Gambit Larry Maddock Wild Cards I George R. R. Martin Wild Cards II: Aces High George R. R. Martin Haigerloch Project Ib Melchior At the Narrow Passage Richard C. Meredith No Brother, No Friend Richard C. Meredith Vestiges of Time Richard C. Meredith House of Many Worlds Sam Merwin New Barbarians Kirk Mitchell Procurator Kirk Mitchell Behold the Man Michael Moorcock Land Leviathan Michael Moorcock Steel Tsar Michael Moorcock Warlord of the Air Michael Moorcock "A Class with Dr. Chang" (Willy Ley -- Beyond Time) Ward Moore Bring the Jubilee Ward Moore Hitler Has Won Frederic Mullally "What If Peter Had Been Pope WWII" (Polsey--What If?) Walter F. Murphy Ada Vladmir Nabokov If the South Had Won Gettysburg Mark Nesbitt "All the Myriad Ways" (in the collection of the same name) Larry Niven Flight of the Horse Larry Niven "Worlds of Monty Wilson" (Alien Horizons) William F. Nolan Ultimate Solution Eric Norden The Crossroads of Time Andre Norton "Many Rubicons" (Willy Ley -- Beyond Time) Michael Orgill Divide William Overgard Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen H. Beam Piper Paratime H. Beam Piper Tunnel War Joe Poyer Other Time Mack Reynolds Pavane Keith Roberts "Weihnachtsabend" (Passing of Dragons) Keith Roberts No Clear and Present Danger Bruce M. Russett Sound of His Horn Sarban "Back to the Stone Age" (Proctor--Lone Star Universe) Jake Saunders Choice of Destinies Melissa Scott "What Time Do You Call This?" (Tomorrow Lies in Ambush) Bob Shaw "Deaths of Ben Baxter" (Store of Infinity) Robert Sheckley "Enemy Transmissions" (Benford--Hitler Victorious) Tom Shippey "If Hitler Had Won World War II" (Look 12/15/61) William Shirer "Trips" (Feast of Dionysius) Robert Silverberg Gate of Worlds Robert Silverberg Up the Line Robert Silverberg The Gallatin Divergence L. Neil Smith The Indians Won Martin Smith For Want of a Nail Robert Sobel Iron Dream Norman Spinrad If It Had Happened Otherwise Sir John C. Squire More Perfect Union Robert Stapp Heads of Cerberus Francis Stevens Aquiliad Somtow Sucharitkul Time Stream John Taine "Oracle" W.R. Thompson Raven of Destiny Peter Tremayne "If Mao Had Come to Washington" (Foreign Affairs 10/72) Barbara Tuchman Misplaced Legion Harry Turtledove Trial of Adolf Hitler Phillipe Van Rjndt "Custer's Last Jump" (Universe 6) Howard Waldrop "Ike at the Mike" (Datlow, Ellen--1st Omni Book of SF) Howard Waldrop Them Bones Howard Waldrop Alternative Histories C. Waugh "Circle of Zero" (Martian Odyssey) Stanley G. Weinbaum "Worlds of If" (Best of S. G. Weinbaum) Stanley G. Weinbaum Lighter than a Feather David Westheimer Sideslip Ted White Legion of Time Jack Williamson Spaceache Snoo Wilson "How I Lost the Second World War..." (Analog 5/73) Gene Wolfe "Random Quest" (Infinite Moment) John Wyndham Elleander Morning Jerry Yulsman "Cliometricon" (Amazing 5/75) George Zebrowski The Coming of the Quantum Cats In the Barn ("Dangerous Visions" ed. Harlan Ellison) Worlds of Maybe ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 87 12:26:08 GMT From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: CODEX SERAPHINIANUS WMARTIN@SIMTEL20.ARPA writes: >Well, I received my long-backordered copy of CODEX SERAPHINIANUS >from Publishers Central Bureau yesterday. (Remaindered copies at >$24.95, if you're interested.) It would be helpful if you would post the information needed to order the Codex from PCB, since I've been looking (unsuccessfully) for this book for some time now and other readers might be interested too. I've failed to see it in the remaindered book catalogs I get since the last flurry of postings on the topic. Do you have an order number for it, and PCB's address? >4) Can anyone point me to any reviews or commentaries or other >sources of information or discussions about this book or the >artist? There was a review in the New York Times Book Review in (I think) 1983. You can certainly find it at your local library. Haven't seen any other reviews, though. Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 15:12:49 GMT From: mimsy!nbs-amrf!warsaw@RUTGERS.EDU (Warsaw) Subject: INFO REQUEST: Famous Robot Names Hello. I work here at the National Bureau of Standards in the Robot Systems Division. We do various kinds of robotic and autonomous machine research. We are about to receive quite a few new workstations (Suns, IRIS's, etc) and we wanted a naming convention for these machines. We made the obvious choice: Famous Robots! We've come up with a few off the tops of our heads, but I thought I'd throw it open to this group to see what you all can come up with. THE GUIDELINES: 1) the theme is FICTIONAL robots in film, tv, literature, etc. 2) some kind of source or reference should be supplied if at all possible 3) use your own judgement as to what is a robot. For example, would HAL (from 2001) be considered a robot because he has an autonomous body... the ship? SOME EXAMPLES: ROBBIE of Issac Asimov fame R2D2 Star Wars C3PO -ditto- NORMAN Star Trek android coordinator (I, Mudd) GORT (sp?) Robot policeman from "Day the Earth Stood Still" NOMAD ST again (The Changling) RUK another ST android (What are Little Girls...) ROSIE the Jetson's robot maid CONKY (sp?) Pee-wee Herman's robot (gives the secret word) DANEEL the human-like robot from "Robots of Dawn" GISKARD the telepathic robot from "Robots of Dawn" HYMIE Control's robot agent & Maxwell (Get) Smarts friend A few specific requests: 1) the name of the robot from Lost in Space (was it just "Robot"?) 2) not having read the 1913 Czech play R.U.R., is there an actual robot in the play, and if so, what is his/hers/its name? Please e-mail your responses and if there is interest, I'll post a compilation. Thanks in advance. Barry A. Warsaw National Bureau of Standards Bldg 220 Rm B-124 Gaithersburg, MD. 20899 [seismo, mimsy]!nbs-amrf!warsaw ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 May 87 1002-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #234 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 18 May 87 1002-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #234 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 18 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 234 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 May 87 20:42:55 GMT From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks) Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *) perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic) writes: >Heinlein is no libertarian. Complete libertarianism is an >idealization, and Heinlein doesn't deal in idealizations, he works >with realities. None of his lead characters would die for an idea, >though they would (and sometimes do) die for their family and their >society (juvies excepted - I'm talking about `mature' Heinlein >characters). I'll have to disagree. Working with reality and being an idealist are not mutually exclusive. You perhaps are thinking of utopians who feel that they can make over the world in the image of their dreams. Heinlein is not one of those, of course. Neither are all libertarians. I believe Heinlein IS an idealist (not in the philosophical sense i.e. idealism vs. materialism) in that he believes (or at least his major characters seem to believe) that there are certain (almost) absolute values and ethical principles that should govern human social conduct. His characters usually remain steadfastly true to their beliefs regardless of the winds of the general society blowing around them, and they will die for honor or whatever (why did Mike Smith die? could he have avoided it?). Usually the view we get of the society, governments, and especially social and political leaders seen through the eyes of Heinlein's characters is one of deserved contempt. The protagonist is often a bright loner fighting to get the right thing done (even if it is illegal) against massive institutionalized collective stupidity. (I wonder what Heinlein thinks of Col. North., or if he likes the character portrayed by Charles Bronson in Death Wish.) Heinlein clearly seems to admire nonconformists and rugged individualists. There is a similarity between his characters and those of Ayn Rand, although Rand's are far more cardboard characters drawn so she can give speeches through their mouths (but Heinlein has the tendancy to have his characters give speeches too, thank goodness much shorter than Rand's). In each book there is usually an older male who seems to be expressing Heinlein's views (given the similarity over many books). Jubal Harshaw and Lazarus Long are good archtypes of this character. He is usually somewhat grumpy, very opinionated, crafty, experienced in the ways of the world, and competent. While this character is pragmatic, he never will betray his principles or his honor, and thus I say that Heinlein is idealistic. While I disagree with Heinlein's militaristic views, I do admire his nonconformist stance and have enjoyed reading his books over the years. Sorry for rambling on. ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 87 02:13:29 GMT From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU From: (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes: >Leonard Erickson responds: >>It is offensive _specifically because_ it was intended to offend the >>sensibilities of anyone who couldn't see that many of our cultural >>"givens" are _not_ laws of nature. > >>Heinlein's avowed intent was to write a book making a case >>(cases?) for the opposite of various "unquestionable" axioms. >>Cannibalism, marriage, sex, religion... > >But not homophobia? Oh, sorry, this must be a law of nature. Sorry, Kathy, but homophobia was covered. Think back on various male characters (esp the reporter whose name escapes me at the moment) to their first encounter with group _mixed_ sex. Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 87 22:36:19 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!ism780!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod) Subject: Re: Starship Troopers From: Zigetty >How anyone can take a blatantly militaristic and xenophobic piece >of raw hate like Starship Troopers as a work of intelligent (and >typical work) is beyond my comprehension. Despite the fact that >the U.S. was crippled both economically and politically by its >involvement in S.E. Asia,people still maintain that Heinlen is a >credible author. What's wrong haven't any of you read the FOREVER >WAR ? Or seen Platoon.... Huh? Let's see here...first of all, you seem to be saying that hatred is evil in and of itself. "Blatantly militaristic", yes. Is that bad? Xenophobia? Depends on the character of the aliens. Then a >big< context switch to associate ST with the Vietnam War. In fact it predated that war by some years. True, Heinlein endorsed Vietnam, but that's another story. Apparently this writer feels that only "politically correct" writers are "credible authors", and cites several p.c. works (that is, works that agree with his prejudices) for our approval. Above and beyond this superficial analysis is the recurrent defense of Heinlein as dramatizer of contrary themes to make us think and reexamine our values. ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 20:07:58 GMT From: cmcl2!bnl!abrams@RUTGERS.EDU (Karl L. Abrams) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? (MacLeod) write: >mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes: >>I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger >>in a Strange Land". I hated it. > > I can't imagine anybody hating Stanger in a Strange Land. I read where Heinlein said that HE hated it. It's one of the few books by H. that I liked. ARPA: abrams@bnl.APRA BITNET: abrams@bnl.BITNET UUCP: ....philabs!sbcs!bnl!abrams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 87 11:32:18 EDT From: LT Sheri Smith USN Subject: Heinlein and Strangers in a Strange Land For many years Heinlein was my favorite author, and I made no bones about it. His recent works have been a disappointment, and I have subsequently avoided the last two so as not to change my overall appreciation of the man as an author (alright, so he's getting old. That's not a crime, happens to us all, I just prefer to remember him as he was). But and but!! Strangers in a Strange Land (SIASL) is far and away my LEAST favorite of his books. I, also, read it when I was 15 or 16, and detested it. I think it is criminal that someone could have the stupidity to give this book to a person as an introduction to SF. Doesn't surprise me one bit that the people who had this inflicted upon them subsequently hated all SF. For that matter, I didn't much care for I Will Fear No Evil. But I love Friday, Time Enough for Love, Methusalah's Children, Podkayne of Mars, etc. Nuff said!! Sheri ------------------------------ Date: Thu 14 May 87 10:54:04-PDT From: D-ROGERS@edwards-2060.arpa Subject: Zigetty:Heinlein (v12,#210) RE: Zigetty >PEU1237%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk >...How anyone can take a blatantly militaristic and xenophobic >piece of raw hate... What's wrong haven't any of you read the >FOREVER WAR? Or seen Platoon.... Although Eric Carpenter all ready stole most of my thunder with his message in 12 May SF-L Digest v12#224 [FLAMES ON] it thoroughly irks me, the amount of self-righteous moralizing that goes on by folks who either don't have a stake in the issue or haven't sufficient experience in the matter to have an informed opinion. [FLAMES OFF] One of the things that makes Heinlein one of my favorite authors, [along with Jerry Pournelle, H. Beam Piper, and Gordon Dickson], in spite of the fact that there are attitudes expressed in several of his works with which i feel uncomfortable in recommending to my children, is that he exhibits an understanding of *THE REAL WORLD* that seems to be under-appreciated in these so-called enlightened times. For example, there is a myth circulating that claims that wars are somehow caused by some person or group acquiring strength suitable for violence. Garbage! Wars are have only two causes: the first is violation of a basic natural right, expressed quite succinctly in the Mosaic Law as the commandment against covetousness, and second is FEAR that the first is about to occur. As long as there is a being who is willing to assume that the product of another's creativity belongs to the first, merely because the first desires it and is willing (and able) to use force to obtain it, it will be necessary for the rest of us to be on our guard and prepare to resist. Otherwise, the universe within our reach will degenerate to barbaric slavery. Another example is found early in _Starship_Troopers_. Only folks who had served the state had the privileges of citizenship. Should those who have no stake in an issue be permitted a say-so? e.g.: If one does not own property, should one be allowed a vote in a bond issue? It is Heinlein's understanding of the basics, things like personal responsibility, the right to be left alone, plus his (generally) good story lines that keep me buying his works. ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 87 19:17:30 GMT From: k@eddie.mit.edu (Kathy Wienhold) Subject: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL SIASL = "Stranger in a Strange Land" Several people have written (both on the net and to me privately), that Heinlein did take on homophobia in SIASL. For those of you that would like to defend that premise, please explain this excerpt from Chapter 29 (p. 303 in my edition) (and no, I don't think it is out of context): "She [Jill] discussed it [exhibitionism] with Mike -- but Mike could not understand why Jill had ever minded being looked at. He understood not wishing to be touched; Mike avoided shaking hands, he wanted to be touched only by water brothers. (Jill wasn't sure how far this went; she had explained homosexuality, after Mike had read about it and failed to grok -- and had given him rules for avoiding passes; she knew that Mike, pretty as he was, would attract such. He had followed her advice and had made his face more masculine, instead of the androgynous beauty he had had. But Jill was not sure that Mike would refuse a pass, say from Duke -- fortunately Mike's male water brothers were decidedly masculine, just as his others were very female women. Jill suspected that Mike would grok a "wrongnesss" in the poor in-betweeners anyhow -- they would never be offered water.)" The rough translation as I see it? We don't have to worry about homosexuality, because all homosexuals would be screened out with the rest of the social degenerates. And the line about "very female women"?!!! Gag! What other kinds are there? Heinlein makes me want to puke. Kay k@mit-eddie.UUCP kay@MIT-XX.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 87 02:37:29 GMT From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #210 >Heinlen was years before his time in that he pre-empted the >laissez-faire/new right libertarianism which is sweeping the west. He also anticipated the hippie/counterculture movement of the 1960s in STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND, which was published in 1961, and mostly written during the 50's. RAH seems to be an expert anticipator. >How anyone can take a blatantly militaristic and xenophobic piece >of raw hate like Starship Troopers as a work of intelligent (and >typical work) is beyond my comprehension. Despite the fact that >the U.S. was crippled both economically and politically by its >involvement in S.E. Asia,people still maintain that Heinlen is a >credible author. What's wrong haven't any of you read the FOREVER >WAR ? Or seen Platoon.... I have read FOREVER WAR; excellent book. I have seen PLATOON; good, though a touch overrated. I was an antiwar activist in the 1960s, still feel the same today. Our Nicaraguan involvement is utterly vile. So what? I still think STARSHIP TROOPERS is an excellent novel, fully deserving of the Hugo it won. Do you find it impossible to like a book that presents ideas you disagree with? Do you feel it necessary to throw around epithets like "raw hate" without supporting them? I won't presume to judge your general ability to be a perceptive reader, but I must say your reaction to ST sounds completely knee-jerk. Your brief article doesn't even contain any evidence you've *read* the book, but does suggest that, if you have, you read it while wearing political blinders. I don't mean to be harsh, but I do get impatient with Heinlein-trashing by people who don't offer any support for their disgust. You don't like his politics; big deal, neither do I. I do like (most of) his books, though. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 87 23:47:44 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes: >SIASL = "Stranger in a Strange Land" >Several people have written (both on the net and to me privately), >that Heinlein did take on homophobia in SIASL. For those of you >that would like to defend that premise, please explain this excerpt >from Chapter 29 (p. 303 in my edition) (and no, I don't think it is >out of context): [excerpt from SIASL deleted. I don't think it was out of context either. It's the scene where Jill is musing about how Mike might avoid a pass from men, and winds up deciding that he would "grok a wrongness in the poor in-betweeners" and therefore wouldn't be interested anyway.] [Personal comment: bleah. Phooey on you, Jill.] It's worth remembering that this is Jill speaking, not the narrator. Jill can be a homophobe without the narrator being one, and the narrator can be one without the author being one. Heinlein's works have often seemed a bit dubious of homosexuality to me. This quotation was not out of context, but it is equally true that Jubal bawls out one of the guys in the novel for getting freaked out by the idea of gay contact. My impression is generally that H. seems uncomfortable with the natural implications of the theories he likes to espouse (if friendly sex is great, gay sex is going to get in there too). Of course, Heinlein's own feelings are not relevant; it's what's in his books that matters, and that's what I'm trying to stick to addressing. I guess it boils down to, how much of a personally repugnant philosophy can you accept, if you feel that the writing is good and the story interesting? I liked both STARSHIP TROOPERS and THE FOREVER WAR. If you don't feel that the writing is good or the story interesting, then by all means, reject the book. For me, Heinlein is like 'Doc' Smith in that other discussion going on; I'll forgive him his trespasses because he didn't have a clue :-). I wish he had had one, though. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 May 87 1017-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #235 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 18 May 87 1017-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #235 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 18 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 235 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh & Herbert & Leiber & Robinson & Vance & Zelazny (3 msgs) & Doc Savage (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 May 87 21:43:41 GMT From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore) Subject: Re: CJ Cherryh From: Dave Allen > Someone recently mentioned a CJ Cherryh novelette _Scapegoat_. > Does anybody know what book/collection this was published in, or > where I could find it? I found it in a book titled ALIEN STARS, edited by Elizabeth Mitchell Baen Books, 1985. Carole Ashmore ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 87 23:56 EST From: WELTY RICHARD P Subject: Re: What is Hard SF? > ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel) writes: > "Dragon of the Deep" may be an alternate title, but the version >I have is "Under Pressure". I agree with you-- Herbert seems to >have his stuff together on this one. It is probably my favorite >submarine story, with the possible exception of "Blow Negative!" >(author forgotten, story hilarious). This is my favorite Herbert novel, although third on my list of books about submarines (for real submarine stories, see Edward Beach's novel _Run_Silent,_Run_Deep_, and his nonfiction _Submarine_). I believe that _Under_Pressure_ (original title in Astounding) also appeared as _Dragon_in_the_Sea_ and _21st_Century_Sub_, both obviously inferior titles. Blame the editor in the paperback house... Richard Welty CSNet: welty@crd.ge.COM Internet: welty@ge-crd.ARPA Usenet: {seismo!rochester,ihnp4!chinet}!steinmetz!crd!welty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 May 87 10:56:16 CDT From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Cc: seismo!mcvax!ukc!warwick!rolf@SEISMO.CSS.GOV Subject: Fritz Leiber works Rolf Howarth asked if there were any Fafhrd & Gray Mouser stories other than "the six 'Swords' books". Well, I don't know if this story eventually appeared in one of those books, but I just happened to have recently finished reading a 1974 DAW paperback called THE BOOK OF FRITZ LEIBER, which consists of stories selected by Leiber which had not been published or anthologized in other readily-available sources, and which has an introduction by Leiber discussing the publishing history of each item. One of these is a short-short (only 2 pages of text!) called "Beauty and the Beasts", with Fafhrd and the Mouser, which the intro describes as "especially written for this book". (Maybe this is a rare collectible, the only source of this ever printed? I'll entertain offers...:-) This brings up a question about this book which occurred to me as I was reading it. Maybe jayembee or another bibliographic expert can say just what the publishing history of this story was, and reduce my confusion: This book includes a story in Leiber's "Change War" series, titled "Knight to Move". Leiber's intro (remember, this is vintage 1974) states, "It previously saw light only in the excellent girlie magazine BROADSIDE." However, as I read this story, I clearly and distinctly recalled having read it before, and I never have seen a magazine called "Broadside"! I don't think I've read much Leiber later than 1974, so it is doubtful that I read it in some other anthology during this past decade -- I did most of my reading of this sort of thing back in the 60's and earlier, and gave away my SF paperback collection in the late sixties or 1970. So I am next to positive that I read that story sometime *BEFORE* 1974, but the author himself states that it was not published in anything I would have read during that timeframe! So I am really confused... Any explanations? (I suppose Leiber could simply have been wrong...) Regards, Will Martin wmartin@almsa-1.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 87 13:05:47 GMT From: harvard!wjh12!lsrhs!diamond@RUTGERS.EDU (Beth Abrams) Subject: Re: Movie Flame Plagarismic huh? From: rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Arthur Evans) (various examples omitted here) >I'm sorry if I sound shrill -- what I'm really getting at is that >you folks are taking what seems to me an excessively legalistic, >capitalistic stance on this matter. Plots and genres were not >considered a form of personal property until nations started >passing copyright laws. I, for one, find these laws scary >sometimes. If Shakespeare was alive today, (other examples omitted) There is a story by Spider Robinson on this very subject. It's called _Melancholy_Elephants_ , in the anthology of the same name. It deals with a prospective law that would make all artistic copyrights *perpetual*, no statue of limitations whatsoever. The implications of this are explored fairly thoroughly. I found myself reevaluating my own ideas of 'ownership' where Art is concerned. It's worth reading and thinking about, as is most of Spider Robinson's writing. Beth Abrams ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 May 87 15:06:36 edt From: David Kurlander Subject: Vance & McCaffrey Just read Jack Vance's story "The Dragon Masters", which won the short fiction Hugo in '63, and noticed some very strong similarities between this and McCaffrey's DragonWhatever series. Both deal with a world which regularly undergoes alien attack whenever the "Red Star" passes nearby. The humans of each of these worlds use genetically altered dragons in order to counter alien forces. Though most of the parallels are only on the surface, this seems like an extraordinary coincidence. Has McCaffrey ever commented on this -- did she write an intentional tribute to Vance (who I assume published his story before any of the McCaffrey books)? Or should we chalk up another one for deep-rooted Jungian archetypes? Though I don't particularly like McCaffrey's books, these statements aren't intentionally pern-icious. In most ways her books are very different from Vance's story. David Kurlander ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 87 21:51:30 GMT From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Cryptic Zelazny > kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith) >> markan@faron.UUCP (The MITRE Corporation) >> Has anyone read Zelazny's _Jack_of_Shadows_? I got the >> impression that the book was the last in a series, perhaps >> describing the life & times of one Shadowjack, and that I'd >> missed the first {1,2,5} books! > Personally, "Jack of Shadows" is one of my favorite Zelazny > books. I didn't have any trouble following who was who. I would, > however, love to see him do something more with the character and > the world. I wish he would write those you feel are missing. Ah, yes. I agree with Kathryn. And addressed to the cryptic-ness of Zelazny writing in general, I'll refer you to Zelazny's collection "Unicorn Variations". Very good, though I'd read most of the stories before. And it contains a section of Zelazny explaining that he feels certain things should be *left out* of a story for best effect, what these things are, and even an example of something he left out of "The Isle of the Dead". "Fascinating." Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 87 19:57:15 GMT From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) Subject: Zelazny's "left-out" stories throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: >Ah, yes. I agree with Kathryn. And addressed to the cryptic-ness >of Zelazny writing in general, I'll refer you to Zelazny's >collection "Unicorn Variations". Very good, though I'd read most >of the stories before. And it contains a section of Zelazny >explaining that he feels certain things should be *left out* of a >story for best effect, what these things are, and even an example >of something he left out of "The Isle of the Dead". "Fascinating." NO NO NO.. Zelzny's comments Unicorn Variations make it quite clear that the story presented there, and others of its ilk, are stories that he makes up about his characters that have nothing to do with the book. They wern't left out or edited out, they were never supposed to be included. They have nothing to do with the story, they are asides about the character that he has created to help him form that characters personality. They are bits of personal history that help shape a person, mold his character- give you a window on his soul (as it were). Zelazny uses these to "better understand" the person he is writing about. Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 87 02:29:57 GMT From: seismo!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Bad Zelazny (also Bad in General, and Lensing) dykimber@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) writes: > Your remark about having to wait until the end to understand > things - this strikes me as one of Zelazny's greatest strengths > and also his greatest weakness as a writer. On the one hand, he > leaves a lot of questions lingering in the mind of the reader - > there are many different things going on in his books, and its > hard not to wonder what explains it all. Unfortunately, sometimes > he doesn't come back and deal with them by the time the whole > things's over - while he answers the major questions, all those > little things that puzzle you along the way seem to go forgotten. > Anyone else get this impression? The character who dressed all in one colour had me wondering if I was supposed to know who he was. Many years later, reading the e-news, I found out! Leaving these little "time-bombs" scattered throughout a story is a technique I like...you can just imagine that there *is* no significance or explanation if you like, or imagine your own version, or just suspend your disbelief. Then if you later find out the answer, that is an extra bit of satisfaction you get from the book. Conversely, which books did you think really telegraphed their plot twists or endings? I thought "Lord Valentine's Castle" was the worst thing Silverberg ever wrote...ah yes, so cliched, but yet so trite with just that _rien_ of predictability. John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 May 87 09:15:24 EDT From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: Roadmarks --> Doc Savage >I would have shrugged it off as just another unsolved mystery >except that not long after _Raodmarks_ I read _Doc Savage: His >Apocolyptic Life_ by Philp Jose Farmer. This book (a 'biography' >of Doc Savage - Man of Bronze.......... > >Of course I've never read any Doc Savage adventures or I assume >this all would have been obvious to me immediately. Apparently >Zelazny >decided to have a little fun with his readers while paying >homage to a science fiction character (I assume) he has a great >deal of affection for. Heavens! How did you come to read Farmer's book without reading any of the originals? I didn't think anyone who didn't already like Doc would tackle his biography. Anyway, you should check the Doc Savage books out. They are consistently entertaining and well written, considering that Dent had to crank them out month after month. For the most part, they are formula writing, but a pretty good formula. In the later books, Dent takes Doc in a more down to earth direction and the stories loose some of their zest, but none of their interest. My favorites (so far, titles hazy now) _Caves of the Living Fire_ _The Freckled Shark_ (Doc gets involved with a woman - almost) _The Green Death_ Ted Nolan ted@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 87 05:15:18 GMT From: mimsy!chris@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Roadmarks --> Doc Savage ted@braggvax.arpa writes: >... the Doc Savage books ... are consistently entertaining and well >written, considering that Dent had to crank them out month after >month. Well, actually, there are a few rotten apples---I suspect these are restricted to those by the other authors; Dent did not write them all---and the magazine was not always monthly. There are also a few diamonds, and the rest is rather rough---but still a lot of fun. >For the most part, they are formula writing, but a pretty good >formula. In the later books, Dent takes Doc in a more down to >earth direction and the stories loose some of their zest, but none >of their interest. Actually, I think the later ones, where we get to see Doc thinking, `Boy this was a dumb idea. How did I get myself into this mess?', are in fact superior. >My favorites (so far, titles hazy now) >_Caves of the Living Fire_ _The_Living_Fire_Menace_? >_The Freckled Shark_ (Doc gets involved with a woman - almost) This happens several times: Try _King_Joe_Cay_, in Omnibus #2. A most atypical story, but, I think, a `must read' for Doc fans. Or try this: You ought to know about ribbons. The yellow one with the two red stripes is for China Service. The red ribbon with the pair of triple white stripes---good conduct. Purple with white ends, Purple Heart. Blue, red, and white stripes, Distinguished Service Cross. Blue, yellow and red bands, the Yangtze Medal. The years and the terrors of a man's life worn over his heart. This boy had all of these ribbons. Except the good-conduct one. He didn't have that one. He was wearing them, too. They looked like a flag on his chest. Normally he didn't wear them; he carried them in his pocket, in a little teakwood velvet-lined case wonderfully made for him by a Karen in Burma. The boy felt very deeply about them, but he wouldn't have admitted it for anything. However, he wasn't exactly a boy. He was over twenty-eight. Not old enough for that gray to belong in his hair. He was leathery and rangy and long-nosed and blue-eyed and he looked at you as if he owned you. That is a thing American soldiers are beginning to do, look at you as if they own you. And they do, in a way. He had a callous like a corn on a finger of his left hand, his 50-calibre trigger finger. And now they were trying to kill him. He was walking down Fifth Avenue. Looking. Looking at everything gladly and hungrily, as if he wanted to eat it. Looking at the legs of the girls walking on Fifth Avenue. Ogling the plaster-of-paris legs of the mannikins in the store windows. Going ``woo-woo'' at the girls walking by him on the street. He wanted to jump over the buildings, you could tell. He would get up on his toes and dance a step or two, and whirl completely around. Like a ballet dancer. As if God had given him wings. Murder. It was a very carefully planned thing, this project of sudden death. It was getting the care that a murder deserves. The boy with the ribbons, the boy who was so glad that he was almost sick at his stomach, was going to be slain in cold blood. Cold blood---if anyone knows why they call it that. It was hard to be sure how many men were going to help do it to him. Thousands of people were on Fifth Avenue, probably no more nor less than there are any days. Pointing them out would be as difficult as picking four maggots who had had catfish for dinner from a basketful of other maggots who had had sunfish for dinner. Very difficult. They weren't doing anything to get fingers pointed at them. Keeping track of the boy, was all. Waiting. But waiting has its end. Suspense can draw out just about so far, and then something must happen. So one of the men walked up behind the boy with a long knife and started to put the blade in between the boy's third and fourth ribs where it would reach the boy's happy heart. From the beginning of _The_Ten_Ton_Snakes, March 1945. Chris Torek Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7690) chris@mimsy.umd.edu seismo!mimsy!chris ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 May 87 1040-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #236 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 18 May 87 1040-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #236 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 18 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 236 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Hard SF (2 msgs) & The Perfect Creature (4 msgs) & Monster Names (2 msgs) & Planets (2 msgs) & Costuming Query & Time/Dimension travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 May 87 18:36:02 GMT From: seismo!enea!mapper!ksand@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Sandvik) Subject: Re: What is Hard SF? agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes: >In my opinion, hard science fiction is fiction in which the author >draws heavily upon known (though often obscure) science fact when >inventing new worlds or concepts. Hi! Hard science Fiction can also be intensively boring - especially when the whole novel is constructed like a text book on physics or astronomy. Usually I can't get through the book if there is a lot of scientific explanations - and often the writer (college teacher or scientist turned to writing) don't have a sense at all to describe feelings and human relations. A good example of this is MacDevitt's "Hercules Text", a very interesting reading about SETI and how this discovery affects the human society; however the *love story* between the boy and the girl is very sterile and clumsy. >I really enjoy reading works of an author who can explain the basis >for some of what occurs in his stories. It gives the fiction a >sense of realism which in turn makes it more believeable and >involving. I'm curious to know why realistic writing is more home familiar and involving than pure imaginary stuff? It's the same "sense of wonder" that works anyway. Kent Sandvik ADDRESS: Vallgatan 7, 171 91 Solna Sweden PHONE: (46) 8 - 55 16 39 job, - 733 32 35 home ARPA: enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa UUCP: ksand@mapper.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 19:43:06 GMT From: hao!udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alexander Granok) Subject: Re: What is Hard SF? ksand@mapper.UUCP (Kent Sandvik) writes: >I'm curious to know why realistic writing is more home familiar and >involving than pure imaginary stuff? It's the same "sense of >wonder" that works anyway. I just like to read stuff that I believe could actually happen, that's all. Sure, I like the pure fantasy of some science fiction, but I like reading an author who knows what he is talking about rather than one who just makes things up completely out of the blue. This isn't to say that what I want to read is a treatise on astrophysics or biochemistry. Not at all. I think that if the author can be creative, interesting and thought-provoking (of the wouldn't that be neat variety) all at the same time, so much the better. I'm not criticizing authors who use more imagination than scientific knowledge, just stating that I enjoy the latter type better. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 23:52:30 GMT From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic) Subject: Re: The perfect (??) creature gbs@gpu.utcs.UUCP (Gideon Sheps) writes (responding to one of my postings): >Man is indeed a very flexible creature. We are really only >specialized in one area - our brains - and that is one of the most >powerfull tools for aiding us in rapid adapting, ... >... Now, this brain thing does have its disadvantages, we >may yet blow ourselves off the planet as a direct result of its >application, but you have to take the bad with the good as they >say! Yes, it seems indeed that our brain structure (the `shape of our mind') is the one thing that evolution has done well by us. Still, we should never forget that even the structure of our mind is still subject to the same evolutionary rules as the shape of our hands and the geometry of our eyes. (And no religious flames, please.) Our minds, the way we think, even the ways we *can* (and cannot) think, are the result of evolutionary, genetical adaptation to *relevant* features of our environment. The reason why we can't come up with an *intuitive* understanding of relativistic or quantum effects, for example, is simply that there was no competitive advantage in it. Similar fundamental inabilities exist in the understanding of multidimensional spaces and time, and in the (intuitive) understanding of non-linear causality networks (this last one may be directly responsible for MANY things that we have screwed up in our environment, economy and society). In fact, one of the major achievements of humankind is *mathematical and logical calculus*, which gives us a (rather awkward but workable) way to transcend these limitations of our brain. If you are interested in the structure of the human mind, and the inner workings of evolution, you should read the works of *Konrad Lorenz*, *Rupert Riedl*, *Manfred Eigen* and some other Austrian and German scientists and philosophers who have built a quite impressive system of theories about these issues in the last decades. Send me mail if you want the quotations. Fair warning, though: it's not trivial. perry@inteloa.intel.com tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 May 87 11:13:39 edt From: Bard Bloom Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #216 > (Bill Ingogly writes) > I always find aliens that were designed using an engineering > approach unconvincing in SF stories. Evolution solves problems in > a way that has nothing to do with a human engineer's approach to a > problem. But too many SF authors approach the 'design' of an alien > creature as though evolution somehow worked with a set of > requirements to develop specs, then proceeded through various > design stages in a rational fashion. The result is a creature that > leaves someone with a background in biology scratching her head > and wondering if ANYONE in the SF field knows anything about > fundamental evolutionary theory. The creature feels phony in the > same way a poorly-drawn, cardboard human character feels phony. This is very true. Why don't we use our powers as science fiction fans to design a critter -- call it Demiurge -- which designs and builds other critters? Then the creatures that Demiurge builds will look engineered, because they _are_ engineered. I believe that Niven's Tnuctipun (spelling optional) behaved this way. Demiurge is a much more plausible thing to evolve than our nominal perfect critter. We won't insist that Demiurge's intrests in critter design, or its ability to build critters, evolved directly; they might as well be manifestations of a general intelligence. In fact, we don't need to look much past the network to find would-be members of the Demiurge species. I'll ask my gene-hacking friends in the MIT Biology department to build whatever we design. (-8 It'll have to be derived from 954-cell nematodes, though -- unless you want mutant slime mold. Those are the largest (most macroscopic) critters they work with here. 8-) Bard Bloom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 May 87 11:24:40 edt From: Bard Bloom Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #216 >>perry@inteloa.intel.com writes: >>There's a lesson for us humans in there somewhere, but I'm going to >>let it stand for now - feel free to invest some thought... > > gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) > Man, in fact, is very well suited to a rapidly changing environment. > Perhaps we have learned nature's lesson in the process of our > evolution? We no longer adapt to our surroundings, rather we mold > our surroundings whenever possible (soon the whole world will look > like a McDonalds :-) I think the first writer is closer to the mark than the second. We do indeed mould our environment -- but not always the way we want it. It seems rather likely that we're going to see how well our ability to adapt to high levels of UV sunlight, or radiation in general, or an environment full of bizarre chemicals -- none of which our species history as foragers in central Africa has prepared us for very well. Anyone want to bet which will do better in two hundred years, cockroaches or humans? (This is one bet I'll be glad to lose.) Bard ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 87 19:56:52 GMT From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #216 bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU writes: >This is very true. Why don't we use our powers as science fiction >fans to design a critter --call it Demiurge -- which designs and >builds other critters? Then the creatures that Demiurge builds >will look engineered, because they _are_ engineered. I believe >that Niven's Tnuctipun (spelling optional) behaved this way. Actually, species like your Demiurge have appeared numerous times in SF: for example, Ursula K. LeGuin's species that designed the humanoid species in her universe as experiments. What bothers me are descriptions of NATURALLY EVOLVED species that make no sense in SF works that claim to be presenting plausible universes. Artificial species or species in works that don't claim to be naturalistic don't raise my hackles. Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 87 15:12:00 GMT From: bokhour.applicon!bokhour@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Monster names This probably gets posted from time to time, but... I'm compiling a list of old movie monsters like rodan and mothra. No one I've asked can remember the name of the giant jet propelled turtle who could fly by retracting his limbs and spinning. Anyone remember? Any other interesting monsters would be appreciated. Thanx Dave Bokhour Applicon, a division of Schlumberger Systems, Inc. 829 Middlesex Tpk. P.O. Box 7004 Billerica MA, 01821 uucp: {allegra|decvax|mit-eddie|utzoo}!linus!raybed2!applicon!bokhour {amd|bbncca|cbosgd|wjh12|ihnp4|yale}!ima!applicon!bokhour ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 87 16:25:32 GMT From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok) Subject: Re: Monster names bokhour@bokhour.applicon.UUCP writes: >I've asked can remember the name of the giant jet propelled turtle >who could fly by retracting his limbs and spinning. Anyone >remember? Any other interesting monsters would be appreciated. >Thanx The spelling may be off but the monster you speak of is called Gamera. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 May 87 18:02:31 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Ellipsoidal planets To: PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU > From: > The ellipsoid planet will give severe differences in > atmospheric pressure ... No it won't. Ignoring mountains and valleys, any planet will have an equipotential surface. Air pressure will be the same everywhere on the "sea level" surface. Hal Clement (Mesklin) seems to have realized this, but Larry Niven (Jinx) apparently has not. Robert Forward (Rocheworld) also got it right. Keith ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 87 20:31:14 GMT From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok) Subject: Re: Ellipsoidal planets KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU writes: >No it won't. Ignoring mountains and valleys, any planet will have >an equipotential surface. Air pressure will be the same everywhere >on the "sea level" surface. > >Hal Clement (Mesklin) seems to have realized this, but Larry Niven >(Jinx) apparently has not. Robert Forward (Rocheworld) also got it >right. This generally makes sense, but wouldn't the rotation make a big difference as far as winds currents, and thus movement of pressure systems, goes? It seems to me that the earth's rotation makes a very large difference in weather patterns, and we're on a pretty much spherical planet. The Coriolis force would probably be enormous on an elliptical planet, and I would tend to think that the crowding of air masses and subsequent turbulence would make very large pressure differences from region to region, especially if the planet was tilted on its axis so that it warmed unevenly. Maybe we should post this to the sci.astro guys and see what they say. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 87 05:02:44 GMT From: jeffg@tekecs.tek.com (Jeff Glover) Subject: costuming (masks) query I'm planning an elaborate costume for an upcoming convention, but haven't the slightest idea of how to put together a very complex piece, the full-face mask. This mask will be covered with fur, either fake or real, depending on suggestions I receive and experience. I plan to begin experimenting soon. Here are some thoughts: Starting with a skin cap, I cover it carefully with fur using something like spirit gum or other theatrical skin adhesive. Then I make a latex face mask by first doing a plaster mold of my face and applying the liquid latex to a positive cast made from the mold. Again I apply fur to this. Any better suggestions for this process? I've seen some photo's of a very good mask (and costume) - it is quite stunning when done properly. Questions: 1) anybody know of any books or articles covering practical suggestions and/or materials for this endeavor? 2) anybody know of any reliable mail-order costume houses? Someone who supplies costumes for plays and productions may do very well. 3) any suggestions? Since this is obviously not of general interest, please *reply by mail* - I'll summarize by mail for those that request it. Jeff C. Glover Tektronix, Inc. PO Box 1000, MS 61-277, Wilsonville, OR 97070 (503) 685-2207 jeffg@tekecs.GWD.TEK.COM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 87 12:27 EDT From: Subject: Time/Dimension travel I would be interested in help from the net on the subject of time/dimension travel. It has been one of my favorite pet subjects, both from a fiction and philosophical viewpoint. As a reader, I have consumed most of the available works on the subject, and as an adventure gamer I have just gotten an FRP game on the subject published. I will blow my own horn only to extent of saying it is called TimeLords and will be available at the Origins convention. But back to the point. I will be giving a seminar on time/dimension travel at said convention, and I am interested in hearing as many diverse viewpoints on the subject as possible, to make sure I haven't overlooked anything obvious. All comments are welcome, both on "theory", literary references (although I probably have most of those), and how the subject can be used in adventure gaming. As an example... Some people hold to the "deterministic universe" theory, which basically states that you can't change anything once it has happened. For time travellers, this means that they cannot alter history in any way, but it is possible that their actions were what caused history to be that way in the first place, and that it was fated from the start. I personally hold that this doesn't wash. To wit: This theory is not feasible because the "physics" of time travel can be manipulated by thought. For instance, I am looking at the doorway of my office right now. If I made this knowledge public enough, it would be part of recorded history that at such and such a time and place, *no time travellers suddenly appeared*. Therefore, simply by stating it, I have prevented it. The better history becomes recorded, the less it becomes possible to even time travel, let alone be a part of an event. By this theory, a culture with no history would have unlimted time travel, but a culture where everything was recorded would have none. Viewpoints and ideas like this are what I am looking for. Is anyone interested in losing their sanity by trying to expound on this interesting but metaphysically tangled subject? Greg Porter PORTERG@VCUVAX (Bitnet) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 19 May 87 0850-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #237 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 19 May 87 0850-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #237 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 237 Today's Topics: Books - Joan D. Vinge (Part I) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 May 87 23:39:36 GMT From: 6065833@pucc.princeton.edu (Una Smith) Subject: Joan D. Vinge article (long) I thought the following article might be of interest to SF fans and feminists. Enjoy. Any email sent to me (and of a positive nature), will be forwarded to Joan D. Vinge. Una Smith (6065833@PUCC) (deleted several issues) Copyright 1987 by Joan D. Vinge Reproduced courtesy of Infinity Mag., a science fiction magazine produced by Princeton University students. ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 19:42:45 GMT From: trent@csvax.caltech.edu (Ray Trent) Subject: Re: Joan D. Vinge article (long) Question: Joan Vinge isn't perhaps Vince Vinge writing under a pseudonym, is she? That would be great. If so, I would like to applaud her story "True Names". If not, then never mind. ray trent@csvax.caltech.edu rat@caltech.bitnet ...seismo!cit-vax!trent ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 87 08:13:20 GMT From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Joan D. Vinge article (long) trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes: >Question: Joan Vinge isn't perhaps Vince Vinge writing under a >pseudonym, is she? That would be great. If so, I would like to >applaud her story "True Names". If not, then never mind. Never mind. Vernor (NOT Vince) Vinge is, however, Joan's ex-husband. I've seen them both at more-or-less the same time, so I don't think they're the same person :-> Mike Farren hoptoad!farren ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 87 00:19:14 GMT From: seismo!uw70!uw-june!ewan@RUTGERS.EDU (Ewan Tempero) Subject: First Science Fiction A discussion has been going on in rec.arts.drwho about the first episode people saw and why they became hooked on the good Doctor. This set me thinking about the first Science Fiction story I read. This relates to the question that has arisen on several occasions about what people would recommend to those who wanted to start reading SF. So people, what SF story did you first read and why did it hook you to SF? I hesitate to include Fantasy here because (in my opinion) this includes the Oz stories and the like. (which "real people", i.e., non-SF readers :-) don't associate with with what we in this newsgroup mean by SF/Fantasy) But you know what I mean..... I'll kick off: The first story that I read that I identify with SF/Fantasy is A Fall of Moondust, by Arthur C. Clarke when I was about 10. I didn't realize at the time that this was SF, or in fact for several years after. In fact it really wasn't until high school when I discovered the SF section of the school that there whole *lots* of books like Moondust. Why did I like SF? Well, dunno. Maybe I just like make-believe, or exercising my imagination although I didn't start reading Fantasy until much later. Would I recommend Moondust to anyone wanting to start reading SF? A child - yes, An adult?..... Ah the memories... Ewan Tempero University of Washington UUCP:!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan Internet:ewan@june.cs.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 87 23:11:05 GMT From: seismo!utai!hub.toronto.edu!ping@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: First Science Fiction > ... So people, what SF story did you first read and why did it > hook you to SF? The first SF books that I read were two novels by the British author Patrick Moore about a base built on the moon jointly by the Americans and the Russians. One was called "Caverns of the Moon", and I don't remember the name of the other one. They weren't such great stories but they had pretty good characterization and the idea of being in space (well sort of) was interesting. Another book that I read quite early on was a collection of short stories edited by Arthur C. Clarke called "Time Probe". I do recommend the collection to everyone, especially the story about altering the climate. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 87 04:25:08 GMT From: c60a-4er@tart1.berkeley.edu.berkeley.edu (Class Account) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes: >This set me thinking about the first Science Fiction story I read. >This relates to the question that has arisen on several occasions >about what people would recommend to those who wanted to start >reading SF. So people, what SF story did you first read and why did >it hook you to SF? I hesitate to include Fantasy here because (in >my opinion) this includes the Oz stories and the like. (which "real >people", i.e., non-SF readers :-) don't associate with with what we >in this newsgroup mean by SF/Fantasy) But you know what I mean..... I read a lot of horse stories when I was 7-9 years old, especially the "Island Stallion" series by Farley. Farley happened to use benevolent aliens in one of his books (_The Island Stallion and Flame_, I think) as a plot device to get two of his main series characters together. I was intrigued, and went hunting for other books with the same kind of thing in them. My father noticed, and pointed me at the Foundation Trilogy (which I'd still recommend, but NOT the two follow-up books!) and at a lot of Andre Norton's SF. I'd recommend Norton's works to a young person starting SF, especially _Moon of Three Rings_ and _Judgement on Janus_. I don't know how much they would appeal to an adult, not having re-read them recently--maybe I'm afraid to spoil the memories. Mary Kuhner ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 87 09:45:56 GMT From: seismo!enea!mapper!ksand@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Sandvik) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes: >So people, what SF story did you first read and why did it hook you >to SF? Hi! Well my wife got hooked to sf by a book I gave her one night called "Hothouse" by Brian Aldiss - a mix of weird world tales and fantasy (oops). Some of Aldiss' earlier works pretty good for starters, also Harry Harrison's books are very good to convince novices to sf. In by case everything went as I planned - my wife fell in love with both me and sf (!) and nowadays I take home a lot of sf and she don't nag. Kent Sandvik ADDRESS: Vallgatan 7, 171 91 Solna Sweden PHONE: (46) 8 - 55 16 39 job, - 733 32 35 home ARPA: enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa UUCP: ksand@mapper.UUCP ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 19 May 87 0926-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #242 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 19 May 87 0926-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #242 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 242 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Conventions (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 May 87 11:05:23 CDT From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Conventions & Huckster Rooms In the light of the recent discussion on cons, I'd like to bring up an area I hadn't seen mentioned, and which I've wondered about since I attended my first con about 20 years ago (but I've only gone to a few): It has always struck me that the huckster room is somewhat different from the rest of the con. Having it is an attraction for the con, of course, but it is in the interest of the people selling stuff there to get as many people into that room as possible, not limited to those officially attending the con. Also, it appears that the people who are *working* in the huckster room, sitting behind the tables and selling stuff, get no benefit from the con programming or other functions, and really should not be required to have con memberships or pay attendance. That is, they have to spend all their time sitting or standing in there, working at selling stuff, so they can't go to panels, see films, or anything else but work at peddling their wares. So why should they pay for con benefits they cannot enjoy? They (or their employer) have already paid for the table space, after all. This leads me to think that it would be best if the huckster room was treated as "external" to the rest of the con. That is, anyone from off the street can come into the huckster room and buy stuff, and the people working in that area have no need to have con memberships or officially "attend" the con. To get from the huckster room into the con area itself, though, you would have to show your badge or pass or ticket (assuming the con has part of the facility blocked off for its exclusive use). The huckster room would be more of a "co-located flea market" than an integral part of the con. As far as I could see at the few cons I've attended, this has NOT been the case. The people working in the huckster room had to buy memberships or pay admission to the con, in addition to paying for their tables. (This might be implemented in that table rent included one or two con memberships, but that still then artificially inflated the table rent to cover this.) In addition, the huckster room was not accessible to the general public; you had to display a con badge or pass to get into it. This has caused me to not follow up on the inclination I've had a couple times to rent a table at a con to try to dispose of my remaining hardback SF and get a reasonable price for them; if I had to also pay to attend the con itself, when I would not be able to take advantage of the functions and facilities I had paid for, it didn't seem worth it. Maybe I'm wrong. Do cons in general operate the way I have described, or am I under a misapprehension? Are there cons where the huckster room is accessible to the general public in addition to the con attendees? Regards, Will Martin wmartin@almsa-1.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 May 87 19:30:39 EDT From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: conventions, conventions everywhere I noticed a recent letter that had a listing of sf cons in the United Kingdom. Since the Boskone incident most fen have been looking for other cons to go to. There is a notesfile on ARPANet you can suscribe to. Send a message to: ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA (Rich Zellich) [Moderator's Note: The rest of this article contained excerpts from the list mentioned above and is too long to be included in a digest. The file is available from Rich directly and using the ANONYMOUS login of FTP. The file is CONS.TXT on SRI-NIC.ARPA.] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 May 87 23:53:24 EDT From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: More useless Boskone spew > under-18-not-allowed (generally): *real* bad idea. I started going > to cons when I was 13, and like the majority of underage fen never > caused any more problems than the average adult attendee. Truly? I would be interested in evidence to back that. As far as I saw and heard at the most recent Boskone, the assorted vandalism incidents were almost solely committed by minors. In general, though, I'll fall back on my previous comment: Minors in this society are neither encouraged, nor indeed legally permitted, to be without adult supervision for any serious length of time. Exception: those states that have emancipation statutes. Which doesn't apply here; in any event, Massachusetts doesn't have such a statute. What is so revolutionary about this? Okay, let's set up a hypothetical. Let's say that Teenager X causes no problems at Boskone, therefore should be permitted to go. Let's say (for example) that Teenager X is 13 years old, the same age as the previous writer at his first con. Let us apply Boskone standards to mundane life... Would you, as a parent of a 13-year-old, allow your child to attend a weekend-long party, with available alcohol and drugs, with no curfew, without chaperones or supervision, at a distance of as much as a few hundred miles away? Do I stretch the bounds of reason to suggest probably not? Not only is NESFA well within its rights here, but they've been damn careless not to have had an underage policy in effect years ago. One lawsuit of the size that is typical nowadays and NESFA goes poof. Oh, and on costumes. I knew that they were going to "discourage" costumes, but this is pretty wild. Gee - the whole idea behind discouraging costumes was to avoid freaking out the hotel's mundane clientele. Could a NESFA member enlighten us as to how many hotels in the Boston area are large enough to hold even a 2000 member scaled-back con AND *have* mundanes around? C'mon, guys. I could concede the logic before, but if you have to hit a suburban hotel to cut back, aren't you going to fill the hotel completely? If so, why this "We do not want costumes" business? If so, then why so restrictive an attendance policy? Enquiring minds all want to know... Finally, what does "we do not want" mean? If I dare to show up in public costumed, will my outfit be torn from my back? Will I be evicted? My membership revoked? Wouldn't it have been easier to point out the logic behind the costume "discouragement" instead of playing schoolmarm and trying to hide the horrible truth that some SF fans LIKE costumes? (Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!) Robert G. Traynor UMass-Boston ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 87 16:49:40 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@RUTGERS.EDU (Royal White) Subject: Re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI >It has always struck me that the huckster room is somewhat >different from the rest of the con. Having it is an attraction for >the con, of course, but it is in the interest of the people selling >stuff there to get as many people into that room as possible, not >limited to those officially attending the con. Also, it appears >that the people who are *working* in the huckster room, sitting >behind the tables and selling stuff, get no benefit from the con >programming or other functions, and really should not be required >to have con memberships or pay attendance. . . This leads me to >think that it would be best if the huckster room was treated as >"external" to the rest of the con. That is, anyone from off the >street can come into the huckster room and buy stuff, and the >people working in that area have no need to have con memberships or >officially "attend" the con. . . . The people working in the >huckster room had to buy memberships or pay admission to the con, >in addition to paying for their tables. (This might be implemented >in that table rent included one or two con memberships, but that >still then artificially inflated the table rent to cover this.) . . I have always thought of cons as gathering places for people with common interests. A con organizes a group of attractions (dealers room, art show, masquerade, prog., etc.) for its attendees. That's why admission is restricted to attendees. You're right though that this isn't in the best interests of dealers. Dealers are at cons to make a profit above the cost of tables, transportation to the con, accomodations at the con, etc. One thing a con provides a dealer which he can't get in his own store (usually) is a large number of captive customers. I wonder if an open dealers room would increase the dealer's room attendance? I wonder if it would hurt the cons attendance? An open dealers room isn't in the best interests of a con though. I think of the dealers room as a highlight of a con. I would go to just the dealers room if it were free at some cons. Some cons just aren't interesting in their programming or subject. A con would probably lose attendee money if the dealers room were free. Some cons also pay for space. This might explain the high cost (usually more than twice) of tables over memberships. Because there are so many cons, this may or may not be true. Because the dealers room isn't open non-stop at cons, the dealers do have the opportunity to enjoy themselves at evening prog. (if they're so inclined); such as films, masquerades, con suites, some art shows, and maybe some programmings. Again it really depends on the con and the dealer. I guess I agree and disagree with you. I would like some dealers rooms open, especially at the cons I don't usually attend or that I would only attend for one day. But I wouldn't want to hurt a con financially and stop it from running next year. I kind of think that an open dealers room would hurt a con in the long term (maybe not short term). While in the short term this might be good for the dealers, over the long term the dealers would probably lose out if cons stop running. I think dealers probably make more money off attendees at a con who are there because of the interests than people nearby or off the street. My thought is that dealers should want cons to get bigger and do better from year to year. The dealers at Boskone might be hurting next year because of the lower attendance. These are all just my thoughts on the subject and have no factual or statistical basis. I have attended many cons in the last ten years and even worked on a few. I once even ran a dealers room. But that's not something I talk about. Royal White Jr. seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite work: 703-749-2384 ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 02:30:40 GMT From: hutch@hammer.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI >It has always struck me that the huckster room is somewhat >different from the rest of the con. Having it is an attraction for >the con, of course, but it is in the interest of the people selling >stuff there to get as many people into that room as possible, not >limited to those officially attending the con. ... [ Why are the >huxtre rooms limited] ? I've been drafted as a redshirt at the last two OryCons, and the reason given to us each time, as to why we needed to exclude nonmembers from the ENTIRE area which is rented by the convention, is that the convention has to assume liability for potential injuries and damages. Since the people who run the things are actually not overwhelmingly wealthy, and they have to deal with insurance companies, they usually end up with a deal where the con has limited liability but the terms of the insurance policy require that only "members" are allowed to enter the activity areas. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 14:39:38 GMT From: dee@cca.cca.com (Donald Eastlake) Subject: Re: More useless Boskone spew Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes: > Oh, and on costumes. I knew that they were going to "discourage" >costumes, but this is pretty wild. Gee - the whole idea behind >discouraging costumes was to avoid freaking out the hotel's mundane >clientele. There is no "official" reason for the costume policy in the sense that no specific justification has been adopted by the Boskone Co-Chairmen or by NESFA. However, I believe that it was to reduce the negative impression on not just mundane hotel guests but also on hotel management and in addition to make the overall tone of Boskone less party-like. >Could a NESFA member enlighten us as to how many hotels in the >Boston area are large enough to hold even a 2000 member scaled-back >con AND *have* mundanes around? For most hotels of any size in urban areas it is very hard to get a prior commitment of more than 75% of the rooms. A number of Boston area hotels have permanent guests that reside in the hotel and airline contracts that guarantee a number of rooms per night for airline personnel. > C'mon, guys. I could concede the logic before, but if you have to >hit a suburban hotel to cut back, aren't you going to fill the >hotel completely? If so, why this "We do not want costumes" >business? If so, then why so restrictive an attendance policy? >Enquiring minds all want to know... It appears very unlikely that Boskone will be in a suburban hotel. It will almost certainly be downtown in a city other than Boston. > Finally, what does "we do not want" mean? If I dare to show up in >public costumed, will my outfit be torn from my back? Will I be >evicted? My membership revoked? Probably not. Donald E. Eastlake, III +1 617-492-8860 ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee P. O. Box N, MIT Branch P. O., Cambridge, MA 02139-0903 USA ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 16:18:44 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low) Subject: Re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms >You're right though that this isn't in the best interests of >dealers. Dealers are at cons to make a profit above the cost of >tables, transportation to the con, accomodations at the con, etc. I know several people who are hucksters. Most of them are hucksters because they are fans first and huckstering gives them the chance to attend more cons. Some of them make a living from huckstering at SF cons. Others have another mundane job to pay the rent. The bottom line is that many hucksters are in it for the joy of it and not just the money. None of the hucksters I know are getting rich. An open huckster room changes the nature of the clientele and consequently the business. For some of them, this would make huckstering less pleasant. Danny Low Hewlett-Packard ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 87 15:36:43 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@RUTGERS.EDU (Royal White) Subject: Re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes: >I know several people who are hucksters. Most of them are hucksters >because they are fans first and huckstering gives them the chance >to attend more cons. Some of them make a living from huckstering >at SF cons. Others have another mundane job to pay the rent. The >bottom line is that many hucksters are in it for the joy of it and >not just the money. None of the hucksters I know are getting rich. >An open huckster room changes the nature of the clientele and >consequently the business. For some of them, this would make >huckstering less pleasant. Good point. I also know several hucksters who are fans and enjoy cons. I've considered doing it myself when (not if) I accumulate enough stuff. It's *nice* when a table pays for itself though. I've know other dealers who can get upset if they don't make a profit at a con. The businessperson in them. Many of them are fans too. Royal White Jr. seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite work: 703-749-2384 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 20 May 87 0847-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #243 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 20 May 87 0847-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #243 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 20 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 243 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh (2 msgs) & Hogan & Leiber & Zelazny (4 msgs) & Doc Savage (2 msgs) & Alternate Worlds & Robot Names (3 msgs) & First SF (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 May 87 09:56:55 PDT (Monday) Subject: Morgaine Stories *mild spoilers* From: "Richard_W_Rodway.SBDERX"@Xerox.COM Some questions about Morgaine... I have just read what I could find of this series (_Gate of Ivrel_, _Well of Shiuan_ and _Fires of Azeroth_) and I have a couple of questions that someone out there may be able to answer. First: Are there any more Morgaine Stories?. These are the only ones I can find at present. Second: Does anyone know exactly how Morgaine seals the gates that she passes. She doesn't do it by carrying Changeling unsheathed into them (as far as I understand, this works, but has the unpleasant side effect of also destroying the Sword and the bearer :-)). In _Fires of Azeroth_ there is the suggestion that the gate is closed from a primary control center, but does this destroy, or merely deactivate them, and if the gate is just deactivated, what stops someone reactivating it. Just one functioning gate is enough to put civilisation in danger apparently. Anyone know?? Richard Rodway rwr.SBDERX@Xerox.COM ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 02:08:40 GMT From: lll-lcc!unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Morgaine Stories *mild spoilers* Richard_W_Rodway.SBDERX@Xerox.COM writes: > I have just read what I could find of this series (_Gate of >Ivrel_, _Well of Shiuan_ and _Fires of Azeroth_) >> ... > First: Are there any more Morgaine Stories?. These are the only >ones I can find at present. Those are currently it. I have head the CJ is working on a new story, but I have no idea when to expect it. Joe Kalash ucbvax!unisoft!kalash ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 16:13:39 GMT From: seismo!scgvaxd!trwrb!kraml@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert P. Kraml) Subject: What is James P. Hogan up to? I am a fan of James P. Hogan. I think he combines insightful hard SF with good imagination to make for interesting and exciting reading. Does anyone know if he has written anything in the last couple of years or is he working on something now? I think the most recent book I've read is " Thrice Upon A Time". Any comments? Thanx. Phone: (213) 536-1871 Address: One Space Park 82/2024 Redondo Beach CA 90278 seismo!scgvaxd!trwrb!kraml ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 87 08:53:50 EDT From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: Re: Uncollected Leiber Well, there is at least one Fafhrd and Mouser story as yet not in a "_Swords_" volume. It is called (I think) "The Curse of the Smalls and Stars" and appears in an original anthology called (probably) _Heroic Visions_. In it, some enemy curses the Mouser with an attention to trivial things and Fafhrd with an obsessive interest in the stars. To my mind, it was one of the worst stories about the pair, seeming rather out of character and rather arbitrarily stating a "new" fact about either Ninguable or Shebella. (SPOILER - not that it's at all important to the story, but it turns out that Fafhrd's wizard is a woman). Ted Nolan ted@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 87 15:54:36 GMT From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Zelazny's "left-out" stories > gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) >> throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) >>[...] addressed to the cryptic-ness of Zelazny writing in general, >>I'll refer you to Zelazny's collection "Unicorn Variations". >>[part of it explains that Zelazny believes] certain things should >>be *left out* of a story for best effect, [...] > > NO NO NO.. Zelzny's comments Unicorn Variations make it quite > clear that the story presented there, and others of its ilk, are > stories that he makes up about his characters that have nothing to > do with the book. They wern't left out or edited out, they were > never supposed to be included. Well, I agree totally with Gideon, but I fail to see why anybody thought that I thought that the left-out-parts were ever intended to be included. After all, what is the difference between "should be left out" and "never supposed to be included"? Some vague implication of inclusive intent goes with the first, but not the second, I suppose. Sorry, folks, I just wasn't aware of that implication, if it exists. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 87 16:59:13 GMT From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) Subject: Re: Bad Zelazny (also Bad in General, and Lensing) john13@garfield.UUCP writes: >The character who dressed all in one colour had me wondering if I >was supposed to know who he was. Many years later, reading the >e-news, I found out! Leaving these little "time-bombs" scattered >throughout a story is a technique I like...you can just imagine >that there *is* no significance or explanation if you like, or >imagine your own version, or just suspend your disbelief. Then if >you later find out the answer, that is an extra bit of satisfaction >you get from the book. > >Conversely, which books did you think really telegraphed their plot >twists or endings? I thought "Lord Valentine's Castle" was the >worst thing Silverberg That's a very good point, which reminds me of just why I like reading Zelazny - although his stories are clearly strewn with things I'm missing, they still hold together just fine if I just file them away, and the story is that much richer. The "oh, so that's what that was" experience is fun in retrospect. As for the telegraphed plot twists, although I don't have any of his books handy, I can just remember reading the Amber series and every couple of pages finding something, and saying to myself, "ah, another little something to be revealed in the final pages!" But there just aren't that many final pages. Later, as a wiser person, reading through the new series, my thoughts ran more like "ah, I wonder if I'll ever find out the answer to that - should I write it down?" I never did. Oh, well. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 1987 02:00 EDT (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Cryptic Zelazny -- Jack of Shadows As it happens, there is one other Shadowjack short story in the collection, "The Illustrated Roger Zelazny." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 87 13:33:19 EDT From: BARBER%PORTLAND.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Wayne Barber) Subject: Wild Cards There has been a lot of criticism of Zelazny's writing in the Wild Cards series, but no one has mentioned one aspect that bothered me quite a bit. It took me a long time to put my finger on it, but it finally hit me while reading Aces High: Zelazny copped out in creating his character. He seems to have deliberately created Croyd in such a way that he doesn't have to write for the same character each time. Maybe he didn't want to get trapped into creating a character that he would grow tired of. Did this strike anyone else as being the case? Also, could this be the reason he never wrote a Thieves' World story? After all, TW already had a changing character in Enas Yorl. I didn't find Zelazny's writing as unacceptable as some others have, but I've always thought his bad stuff was better than a lot of writers' best stuff. The only thing about Croyd I didn't like was that he grew up all at once and we never saw any problems of a kid in an adult body. He seemed to mentally be the same age as his body after that first sleep. As to the rest of the criticism of Zelazny's writing, I guess I was willing to believe he was attempting to write down to the level of comic books :-) Wayne Barber ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 May 87 13:24 EDT From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Zelazny and Doc Savage Zelazny isn't the only person to use Doc Savage as a 'guest star' in a story. In Dave Stevens' stupendously fabulous 'Rocketeer' comic book series 'The Rocketeer', it turns out that the rocket pack that the Rocketeer is using was actually invented by Doc Savage, who makes a brief appearence, along with Monk Mayfair and another of Doc's cronies. Also, in regards to 'Doc Savage: His Apocolyptic Life', one of the stunning revelations is that Cordwainer Bird (creator of 'The Starlost') is *in actuality* the nephew of Kent Allard aka The Shadow. For an account of Cordwainer Bird's distinguished achievements, I recommend 'The New York Review of Bird', as told to Harlan Ellison in 'Strange Wine'. In this story, Cordwainer Bird's curious genealogy is revealed which shows that indeed, he too is related to many colorful 'pulp' heroes. The unsubstantiated rumors that Cordwainer Bird is Harlan Ellison are based on their relative heights, and certain superficial similarities in personality. ** SARCASM ALERT ** Just so I don't get any heated missives informing me that 'No no, you see Cordwainer Bird *is* Harlan Ellison', I'll save you all the trouble. I *know*. It's a joke, son. Dan Parmenter ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 87 13:26:19 GMT From: jam@computing.lancaster.ac.uk (John A. Mariani) Subject: Re: Zelazny and Doc Savage DANDOM@UMass.BITNET writes: >Zelazny isn't the only person to use Doc Savage as a 'guest star' >in a story. In Dave Stevens' stupendously fabulous 'Rocketeer' >comic book series 'The Rocketeer', it turns out that the rocket >pack that the Rocketeer is using was actually invented by Doc >Savage, who makes a brief appearance, along with Monk Mayfair and >another of Doc's cronies. I believe the other crony was none other than that dapper lawyer, "Ham" Brookes. A point of information .... Post : University of Lancaster Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 87 11:25 EST From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: ALTERNATE WORLDS There is a third Lord Darcy book besides the two listed in the alternate worlds list. I believe it is called -Murder And Magic-. It was reprinted within the last few years in paperback (as was -Lord Darcy Investigates-). ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 17:57:37 GMT From: bayes@hpfcrj.hp.com (Scott Bayes) Subject: Re: INFO REQUEST: Famous Robot Names I can't remember names, but I do remember that Clifford D. Simak often has robots in his stuff: the robot butler in ? (_City_?) a robot that made burdock wine in a short story in a Damon Knight collection (he was a very folksy type robot) Pohl's robots in _Midas Touch_ Niven's Kendy (for the State) - more a cyborg ship, in _The Integral Trees_ _The Smoke Ring_ Are we counting cyborgs? There was the mechanical chess player from the 1800s. Dunno' if he had a name. Zelazny's golem from _Call me Conrad_ (_This Immortal_) Kornbluth's in _Robots Have no Tails_ (a collection, and I can't remember the robot's name, dammit) This is dumb! I can remember the robots, but not their names! Maybe someone else can supply names. Scott Bayes hpfcla!bayes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1987 09:38 PDT From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Famous Robot Names Here is an extract from the Dramatis Personae in the Oxford University Paper back Edition of RUR (1969, UK): MARIUS, A Robot SULLA, A Robotess RADIUS, A Robot PRIMUS, A Robot HELENA, A Robotess Of these Primus and Helena are most notable because at the end of the play they develope the human characteristics of sexuality and love and are sent out as the new Adam and Eve. Helena, by the way is also the name of a human character in the play. Dick Botting paaaaar@calstate.bitnet Comp Sci, CSUSB, 5500 State Univ Pkwy, San Bernardino, CA 92407 (714) 887-7368 ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 01:25:39 GMT From: rochester!ur-cvsvax!marcus@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Levin) Subject: Re: Famous Robot Names I know this is perfectly obvious, and you'll hit yourselves for not thinking of it or mentioning it ---- But, Marvin the paranoid android from "The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy" (Douglas Adams). Of course unless you do not want to name a computer after a robot that is depressed and has a habit of causing massive failure in any computer it talks to. Then its understandable your deletions. Just trying to help, marcus @ur-cvsvax ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 87 16:02:19 GMT From: howard@pioneer.arpa (Lauri Howard) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes: >So people, what SF story did you first read and why did it hook you >to SF? I was in elementary school and the teacher read us the first book of John Christopher's _White Mountain_ trilogy. I read the second two books on my own, liked them a lot, asked my sisters what else I could read (I forget what they said), and that was that. Lauri Howard howard@ames-pioneer.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 87 06:08:48 GMT From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction Anybody remember a series of stories about a moonman named Matt Mooney? If it helps, he had a raygun (the instructions on the side said "Shake before using"). That might not have been my first sf book, but it was one of them. david rickel decwrl!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 87 03:07:47 GMT From: seismo!utai!gpu.utcs.toronto.edu!gbs@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: First SF/F ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes: >A discussion has been going on in rec.arts.drwho about the first >episode people saw and why they became hooked on the good Doctor. >This set me thinking about the first Science Fiction story I read. >This relates to the question that has arisen on several occasions >about what people would recommend to those who wanted to start >reading SF. So people, what SF story did you first read and why did >it hook you to SF? ... [munch] Hmmm, tricky.. I think I can actually trace my love of SF/F to my early childhood affinity for greek and roman mythology, I had (still have *somewhere*) a thick illustrated children's book covering pretty much all of the subject. These were my bedtime stories (Along with the poetry of Blake..I grew up with 2 English profs for parents) throughout my earliest years, and one of my first sources of reading matter. Granted ancient Greek/Roman myths are not normally considered SF, but as many postings have noted recently (esp that long essay by Joan Vinge) they form a powerful set of base material for this (and many) genres. From this, I recall among my earliest reading (aside from Pooh and Paddington - good fantasy in their own right) comes _A_Wrinkle_In_Time_ Heinlein (*NOT* his juveniles though, I still haven't read most of those) Asimov and Bradbury (I'm at about age 10 now) The problem here is that this is from childhood up, I recall many Heinleins fondly that didn't survive the rereading. If I were to be asked to recomend a starting point for an adult (whatever THAT is :-) I would probably recommend Ellison short stories, more "social commentary/ makes you think" types of work. Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 20 May 87 0925-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #244 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 20 May 87 0925-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #244 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 20 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 244 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 May 87 12:49:21 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: Re: ST:TNG - responses to basic information ABC@PSUVMB.BITNET writes: >rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) says: >>Okay, about a week ago, I posted (with much help) a rundown on >>Star Trek: The Next Generation (STTNG). >> >>Since then I've seen several (even before then I saw some) which >>look at a four line character description and say "This is a >>stupid character, this series is going to stink, what a flop, it's >>just like and we ALL >>know how bad that is." > > Just today I figured out, based on information in the >_Readers_ _Digest_Almanac_and_Yearbook_, that *over half* the >population of the Earth lives in the region of Pakistan, India, >Bangladesh, China, Japan, Southeast Asia, Indonesia, and the >Philippines (sp?). Many more live in the Middle East and Africa. >And *none* of these peoples were included in the list of >regulars-to-be-cast, although that list is as long as the complete >list of all regulars on the original ST. Also, the original ST >*did* include an Oriental and and African, even though they were >both minor characters. > The number of people who are generally thought to have "sex >appeal" is even smaller than the number who live in Europe and >America. And it isn't really necessary for everyone to have "sex >appeal" in order to be liked or respected. So why is this a >prerequisite for practically all of the officers on the Enterprise? >This would make sense if the new series was to be soft-core porn, >but I had *hoped* that it would be mostly serious drama and/or >intelligent humor (and not funny only when the token black who >"must also be able to do comedy well" is onscreen). > My previous criticisms of the casting still stand. Sorry I quoted so much, but I wanted all the points made to be clear. Apparently, you are more interested in "politically correct" Star Trek than having any Star Trek at all. Remember at all times that the show has to succeed in 80+ percent white, socially conservative America. The people who want reality so much, the make shows like Dallas and Dynasty hits. No matter how far Star Trek goes toward telling stories that go beyond 95% of what's on TV today, someone will always complain that's not far enough. The show IS multi ethnic, it IS multi racial, it IS multi sexual, if it doesn't meet your standards of political correctness I am sorry, I am glad Roddenberry is out there trying. The following is a quote from Chapter 1, Line 1 of The Making of Star Trek, showing that GR realizes the realities even if you do not. "The television writer-producer faces an almost impossible task when he attempts to create and produce a quality tv series. Assuming he conceived a program of such meaning and importance that it could ultimately change the face of America, he probably could not get it on the air or keep it there!" Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 87 07:32 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: ST:Kahn's out there somewhere Cc: (Thomas A. Kuchar) I'll go along with the idea the Kahn has to be busy doing something during the 1986 sequence of STIV. I just think, having 10 years yet to build up to a eugenics war, that it doesn't have to be something so overwhelmingly obvious that it would be apparent to the casual time traveler. Of course, it should be obvious to newspaper reading ST fans since he'd be busy gathering followers and building his power base. But, perhaps he started out under another name. Anyone who follows the news more closely than I have a candidate? Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 87 13:59 EDT From: (Thomas A. Kuchar) Subject: More Wrath of Khan This is in response to: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) who responded to my letter: >From: (Thomas A. Kuchar) >> But what disturbs me more about STIV is this time travel stuff. >> The Earth that Kirk and company visited in 1986 has no relation >> to the Earth that the TV series speculated would exist. In the >> episode `Space Seed' A eugenics war is about to occur in ten >> years, yet there is no hint of such a war -- only the current >> struggle between the US and USSR. In 1986 Kahn should be walking >> around trying at least to acquire a base of operations in >> preparation for the the war. (He should be at least 25 by now!) >Not in the least. > >Just because no mention is made of Khan [note spelling] in >present-day in STAR TREK IV, he doesn't exist? Yes, he's there >somewhere in Asia, building his power base, waiting till the time >is right to start his conquest. But that's totally irrelevant to >the film's story. They could have had a random tv broadcast or >newspaper mention Khan by name in relation to some event, but that >would have been totally gratuitous, nothing more than a "nudge >nudege wink wink" aimed at the Trekkies in the audience. There was >no reason within the context of the story that we should've been >given a detailed rundown of the complete geopolitical situation. > >However, I will grant you that there doesn't seem to be any >indication in the film that present-day Earth is advanced enough >for a planet-wide eugenics program to be taking place (Khan was >supposed to have been a product of such a program, so it would have >had to be started no later than the early 70's). It would have been >more consistent for present-day ST Earth to be more advanced than >our own in the biological sciences. My point was missed entirely. According to `Space Seed' Khan and the other super men and women had already been in power by 1992. Apparently this was the start the Eugenics Wars, when these `tyrants' fought among themselves. They were defeated and left Earth on the Botany Bay in 1996. I referred specifically to Khan, because he is the only super man named in `Space Seed'. But there were at least twenty others who were coming to power simultaneously. They were attempting to take over the whole world as well, not just Asia. But this was not apparent in ST IV. The Enterprise crew could not move freely through society if this were happening. Wars and revolutions tend to make life a little difficult. After all, Khan himself said that one man would have ruled the world. Some aside, some mention in ST IV would have been sufficient. Since they showed some headlines on newspaper concerning the nuclear arms negotiations, why not refer to Khan instead. As this for being irrelevant -- Khan's actions resulted in Kirk's mutiny as well as Spock's confusing behavior and lack of memory (both to be resolved in ST IV). Anyway, if he disagrees with me, he's better off supporting his arguments by not agreeing with me in the next paragraph. Also, no one has seemed to pick up my jest concerning misspelling Khan's name- `Kahn' is a brand of hot dog (a weiner). Where's everbody's sense of humor? Tom KUCHAR@BUASTA ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 01:04:12 GMT From: ABC%PSUVMB.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: ST:TNG - responses to basic information rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) says: >Apparently, you are more interested in "politically correct" Star >Trek than having any Star Trek at all. Remember at all times that >the show has to succeed in 80+ percent white, socially conservative >America. There are two or three points which I would like to clarify, and then I'll be finished with this discussion. I don't give a ---- about whether *anything* is "politically correct," I'd rather not even be caught within ten miles of "political correctness." I'd *like* to say that what I'm concerned about is fairness, but that would be neither entirely convincing nor entirely true. My real concern is realism. Is it realistic to think that almost all the officers of the Enterprise would just *happen* to be American whites, with one black and one or two Europeans? When one of your basic assumptions is that the whole Earth has been united for centuries? Does Starfleet have really pressing reasons for such segregation? Of course they don't! Then how can we be expected to try to believe in it? Aside from the reference to "political correctness," what you said was quite true. I don't want to see a new Star Trek series if it's going to cut out its own guts (or brains) before it's even gone on the air. I'd rather see it as a low-budget production on PBS (complete with terrible special effects) if that's the only place where artistic freedom is respected. If there's no artistic freedom in the American entertainment establishment, then I'm going to rebel by ignoring it. A last word on risk-taking: even in "entertainment," the usual rule is "nothing ventured, nothing gained." Alex Clark ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 11:52:04 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!hwcs!hwee!sutherla@RUTGERS.EDU (I. Sutherland) Subject: TVH-STIV more spoilers( and queries) Since Trek spoilers seem to be the in thing here's one that I noticed. After beaming up the whales Kirk asks Sulu to go to warp speed. Kirk then goes with the cetacean biologist to see the whales, has a few words with her and then returns to the bridge when the turbulence begins. Yet the Bird of Prey is still pulling away from a large Earth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that warp speed covered distance slightly faster than a few thousand miles in over a minute. Also, why is the new Enterprise a Constitution Class ship? I thought that they were obsolete. Iain Sutherland ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 11:44:54 GMT From: adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) Subject: Re: another ST loose end ccastkv@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Keith Vaglienti) writes: > The first time we find out that Klingons and Romulans are > collaborating on ship design is in "The Enterprise Incident" in > which the Enterprise enters Romulan space and is immediately > confronted by three Romulan ships built using what are obviously > Klingon D-7 hulls. Not just hulls! I have a model D-7 which I wanted to make Romulan, so when this episode was repeated I watched closely to get Romulan colours and insignia.A waste of effort. The three "Romulan" ships were in Klingon colours - complete with the Klingon insignia! As to ST III, I read somewhere that the original intention was to use Romulans, hence the Romulan style ship and name. After the sequences with the model ships had been made, it was decided to use Klingons instead, but to keep the Bird of Prey. The story explanation, I believe, is that the Klingons stole it. Adrian Hurt JANET: adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian ARPA: adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 87 04:12:34 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: S&S Audio starts Star Trek Series According to Publisher's Weekly (May 8) Simon & Schuster Audio is launching a new Star Trek Audio series. It will initially be four cassettes, two in September and two in the spring, and may be turned into a continuing series depending on sales. In September they'll publish the audio adaptation of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (by Vonda McIntyre) and Strangers from the Sky (by Margaret Wander Bonanno), which will be published in paperback in July. For spring the two titles are Web of the Romulans and Enterprise, both by McIntyre. The adaptations will be read by actor George Takei with Leonard Nimoy reading brief passages, primarily ship log entries. If the series continues, titles currently optioned for audio adaptation include: The Entropy Effect and the three Movie tie-ins. The audio series joins the various other Star Trek tie-ins: 35 Pocket book titles, two Simon & Schuster computer games, four movies and a host of TV show videocassettes. They didn't print pricing information, but they did point out that the cost of performers raised breakeven by about 50%. Whether they decide to deal with this by raising price (normal cassettes are in the $12-15 range) or higher hoped-for volumes (or likely a combination) isn't known yet. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 87 10:18 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: ST:The New Generation On the complaints posted recently that the cast of TNG is not a valid representation of either the racial or sex appeal mix of Earth: Obviously, there are some things about the Eugenics Wars that were not revealed in "Space Seed." As these supermen took over the world, they instituted mass serilization of "undesirables"--all those whom Hollywood producers would not cast in leading roles of tv series--the Orientals, the Blacks, the fat and the ugly. So, by the time of the TNG, or ST, for that matter, Blacks and Orientals are rare and fat and ugly people are extinct. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 08:29:18 EDT From: Saul Subject: Roll call on the new Enterprise [This is reprinted from The Associated Press without permission] Los Angeles - Capt. James T. Kirk and Mr. Spock will give way to a blind lieutenant, a telepathic half-human, a super-strong android, and a brainy 15-year-old when Paramount Network Television launches "Star Trek: The Next Generation." On Firday, Executive Producer Gene Roddenberry announced the cast for the show, including actors Patrick Stewart, Jonathan Frakes and LeVar Burton. Like their predecessors, William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy, they will be venturing where no man has gone before - this time in the 24th century instead of the 22nd. A new generation of starship also will be featured in the series, but it will be named for its beloved predecessor, the Enterprise. The series is to make its debut Oct. 3 and 4 with a two-hour pilot called "Encounter at Farpoint," written by Rodenberry and D.C. Fontana. The original "Star Trek" series, televised by NBC from September 1966 to September 1969, broke new ground for science-fiction entertainment and won a devoted following of fans, known as "Trekkies." The old show, which still is being rerun in many areas, also spawned four "Star Trek" movies, a cartoon series, and books and other publications. The new series has been sold in more than 150 markets, representing 90 percent of the U.S. viewing households, Paramount said. The commander of the new Enterprise, Jean-Luc Pikard, is to be played by Stewart, a former Royal Shakespeare Company member who is also a veteran of BBC television. Stewart most recently appeared in the films "Excalibur" and "Dune." Jonathon Frakes is to take the helm as second-in-command William "No. One" Riker. Frakes who most recently starred in the television movie "The Nutcracker" and the TV miniseries "North and South." His other credits include recurring roles on television's "Falcon Crest," "The Doctors," "Bare Essence," and "Paper Dolls." LeVar Burtun has been cast as the blind Lt. (j.g.) Geordi LaForge, who "sees" through the use of a prosthetic device worn over his eyes. Burton won critical acclaim for his portrayal of the young Kunte Kinte in the TV miniseries "Roots" and has been featured in several television movies including "The Guyana Tragedy: The Story of Jim Jones." Also included in the cast are: Wil Wheaton, who portrayed Gordie in the film "Stand by Me," is cast as Wesley "Wes" Crusher, the brilliant 15-year-old son of one Dr. Crusher. Marina Sirtis, featured in the films "Death Wish III," "Blind Date," and "The Wicked Lady," is to portray Lt. Deanna Troi, a half-human, half-"betazoid" counselor with telepathic ability. Brent Spiner is to play Lt. Cmdr. Data, an android with superior strength and memory. Spiner has appeared on "Night Court," "Cheers," "The Twilight Zone," and "Hill Street Blues." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 20 May 87 0951-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #245 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 20 May 87 0951-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #245 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 20 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 245 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 May 87 17:29:03 GMT From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams) Subject: Blood's A Rover Do any of you know if Harlan Ellison's novel _Blood's A Rover_ has, in fact, been published? If so, by whom, and how I can get a copy of it? (For those of you who enjoy these things, Jane Yolen named a dragon Blood's A Rover in one of her novels about dragons, slaves, and pit fighting that I don't remember the name of.) Karen Williams g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 02:14:34 GMT From: unisoft!kalash@rutgers.edu (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Blood's A Rover williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes: >Do any of you know if Harlan Ellison's novel _Blood's A Rover_ has, >in fact, been published? It has not been published (although I once saw a cover proof for the book, done by Corben no less). From what I heard, Ellison was upset at Ace for non-payment of royalties, and used the advance for "Blood's A Rover" to "square" accounts. I make no guarantee that this is the truth, but came from a reasonable source (but some 7 years old). Joe Kalash ucbvax!unisoft!kalash ucbvax!kalash unisoft!kalash@berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 14:35:08 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@rutgers.edu (Royal White) Subject: Re: Ellison and THE TERMINATOR Jerry Boyajian writes: > From: netxcom!rwhite (Royal White, Jr.) >> If Harlan Ellison (or any other writer) feels that their ideas >> are being plagerized, they have every right to sue....And if >> Harlan is the only writer smart enough to hire a lawyer and brave >> enough to go to court, he deserves whatever he can get. > This is true, *but*, I still think that Ellison is too > trigger-happy. I won't disagree with you but I prefer to think of him as perhaps overly zealous in his righteous indignation. Now that sounds more like Harlan. > Now with the "Brillo" case, he was definitely in the right. This > was a cut and dried case of plagiarism. I don't think that THE > TERMINATOR is close enough to Ellison's OUTER LIMITS teleplays to > make for a solid case against the film. I also agree the cases aren't as *obviously* (oh that word again) clear cut or similiar. >> If a studio or network feels there was no plagiarism, they have >> every opportunity to prove it in court. > Say what? As the defendents, they don't have to prove *anything*. > It's up to the plaintiffs to prove the studio *did* plagiarize. > Remember "innocent until proven guilty"? Exactly, by forcing Harlan and company to *prove* their case, the studio will have *proven* themselves innocent or guilty. The studio *proves* themselves innocent by winning the case. > *Perhaps* they *did* settle because Cameron realized that > Ellison's teleplays *were* where the ideas came from. But still, > the fact that they settled out of court isn't *necessarily* an > admission of guilt. For one, Cameron could very well have never > seen those OUTER LIMITS episodes and came up with the TERMINATOR > concept independently, but if Ellison's lawyer can put up a > convincing case, and Cameron's lawyer can't "prove" that the idea > was derived independently, then Cameron loses, regardless of the > truth of the matter. For two, they might well have decided it was > cheaper to settle out of court than to fight the case for months > or possibly years (I doubt that Ellison would ever voluntarily > throw in the towel). I can't argue with your line of reasoning. But I will add just a couple of comments (these are my opinions and not statements of fact.) Harlan Ellison is not stupid. Harlan Ellison is not rich. If Harlan sues a studio, I bet he has a good case. He isn't going to waste a lot of time and money (on court and lawyer fees) on a completely lost cause. (Unless perhaps something I don't know about happened.) If the studio Harlan is suing settles out of court in Harlan's favor, I think they were conceding his case was valid. I am not making broad generalizations about our justice system, which so several people are attributing to me. I am not saying (and have never said) EVERY out of court settlement implies INNOCENCE or GUILT. I am not saying anything about JUSTICE favoring anyone. > Regardless of the ideal, Justice favors the rich and persistent. I think Harlan is persistent not rich. And I don't think Justice favors him that much. I think Harlan has worked for what he has gotten. If anything, Justice would favor a rich studio or network. Royal White Jr. seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite work: 703-749-2384 ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 04:29:27 GMT From: mtune!homxc!del@RUTGERS.EDU (D.LEASURE) Subject: Re: Ellison vs The Terminator throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: > Once before in this newsgroup I asked if anybody had more facts > than those freely available to the public (watch the two episodes, > hear that Ellison sued and settled), and got no response. Having heard Ellison speak on this subject at Brookdale College, I can add the following "facts:" 1) The makers of the Terminator openly (and brashly) admitted to the borrowing of material from the outsider episode. 2) The opening scenes are similar if not identical to the written account. My memory's a little fuzzy, but I feel that I should stick up for someone who's done a lot of good for the field. David E. Leasure HR 59253 2F-239 x5307 homxc!del ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 18:48:00 GMT From: kathy@xn.ll.mit.edu (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: Blood's A Rover kalash@unisoft.UUCP (Joe Kalash) writes: > williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes: >>Do any of you know if Harlan Ellison's novel _Blood's A Rover_ >>has, in fact, been published? > > It has not been published (although I once saw a cover proof for > the book, done by Corben no less). From what I heard, Ellison was > upset at Ace for non-payment of royalties, and used the advance > for "Blood's A Rover" to "square" accounts. I make no guarantee > that this is the truth, but came from a reasonable source (but > some 7 years old). I have a vague recollection of having seen this mentioned in a list of forthcoming works recently, but I'm not sure whether it was going to be straight text, or if it was some sort of visual adaptation. I try to keep an eye on both forthcoming books and comics/graphic novels, and I can't think now where I saw it. However, I do definitely recall that the announcement described "Blood's a Rover" as having been previously published only in a very limited quantity, as a chapbook, or something of the sort. I'll try to find the reference, but can't guarantee it. Speaking of semi-mythical Ellison, does anyone out there know the story on the "Last Dangerous Visions" anthalogy? It was originally supposed to come out years ago, (around 1980, I think), but got held up by something. Then about six months ago, I saw a note in SF Chronicle claiming that it was going to be forthcoming very soon, and nothing since. Anybody got the scoop? Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211 ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 20:11:10 GMT From: ambar@athena.mit.edu (Jean Marie Diaz) Subject: Re: Ellison on Tape kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith) writes: >There's also a tape of Ellison reading "I'm Looking for Kadak" which >I highly recommend. He reads it with a great deal of expression >which makes the dry humor of the story even funnier. I don't know >if it's still available or not, though. I bought my copy in 1980 >at Noreascon Two, and suspect it was probably available only >through specialty stores, etc. ...but what *I'm* waiting for is Ellison reading "How's the Night Life on Cissalda?" I suspect that his rendition would be faster, funnier, and more vicious than that of a friend of mine (who had a group of people at a party howling until their ribs hurt...) This I want to hear... ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 21:20:20 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: The Last Dangerous Visions kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith) writes: >Speaking of semi-mythical Ellison, does anyone out there know the >story on the "Last Dangerous Visions" anthalogy? It was originally >supposed to come out years ago (around 1980, I think), but got held >up by something. Then about six months ago, I saw a note in SF >Chronicle claiming that it was going to be forthcoming very soon, >and nothing since. Anybody got the scoop? I saw Ellison speak when he was Guest of Honor at the 1980 Worldcon. Then, he said that TLDV, which was already well behind schedule, would be out 'real soon, now, so stop pushing me!' No word since. Stories were bought for it, and a friend of mine claims to have seen the proofs lying around Ellison's house (on his stairway, actually). I've stopped getting my hopes up, though. It will come out when it comes out. But if anyone has *concrete* information (unfortunately, the SF Chronicle isn't concrete, and neither is Ellison, apparently; I mean, if you've *seen a copy* or something), let me know! Drool. Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 21:39:18 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Blood's A Rover >Speaking of semi-mythical Ellison, does anyone out there know the >story on the "Last Dangerous Visions" anthalogy? It was originally >supposed to come out years ago, (around 1980, I think), but got >held up by something. Then about six months ago, I saw a note in >SF Chronicle claiming that it was going to be forthcoming very >soon, and nothing since. Anybody got the scoop? It was supposed to have gone to the publisher in manuscript form last August. Since it takes 12-18 months to get a manuscript into print (and possibly more in this case, because of the scope of the project) I'd say the earliest we'd see it is Christmas this year, and next year's spring list would be most likely. Assuming it really did go to publisher in august. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 87 23:10:59 GMT From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!rgm@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Ellison vs The Terminator throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: >> It is my understanding that Harlan Ellison sued or threatened to >> sue the makers of TERMINATOR for plagiarism, [...] > >extremely little I know, I'd say Ellison simply sicced his "killer >lawyer" on a target that happened to have a lot of money and lined >his pockets, pure and simple. Certainly, Ellison's fiction has >borrowed far "extremely little.." key phrase. Ellison was asked about that when he spoke here a couple of months ago. The similarities were not only pointed out to him by several people (Friends of his) but one of the people working on the set asked the writer where he got the idea "Oh, I'm just ripping off some old Ellison stuff" was the answer. Ellison stated that he would have gladly (and has in the past) given full permission, no charge, if he had been asked first. His first request was simply "add a line in the credits to the effect of: the creators wish to acknowledge the work of Harlan Ellison" But the guy refused, rudely to boot. The legal stuff only started after Ellison had tried to be civil and was rudely rebuffed and threatened, so he sued the bastard. Had there not been a good case the guy would never have settled out of court. Ellison is loaded (his phrase) he makes no bones about it and doesn't need or like to make money by sueing people, he's just really touchy about being copied WITHOUT being acknowledged, hes had many bad experiences in the past with unscruplious publishers and film makers, if you want I have more stories from that evening, If people are realy interested I can post a couple. Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu gbs@gpu.utcs.UUCP gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 87 15:50:31 GMT From: sjc@arthur.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin) Subject: Re: Ellison and THE TERMINATOR rwhite@netxcom.UUCP (Royal White) writes: >>At any rate, as others have said, they settled >>out of court to Ellison's satisfaction. >Obviously since the case was settled out of court to Harlan's >satisfaction, the studio must have considered themselves guilty! No!!! Why must an out of court settlement be regarded as an admission of guilt? Granted, you or I might feel that it was enough of a matter of principal to fight it all the way (as Harlan probably did). But a major motion picture studio deals mostly in ECONOMIC terms. Might you think that the whole court battle, along with negative publicity, might have cost them more in terms of $$ than they could hope to recoup? Since they were the defendants, even being found not guilty wouldn't have made them any money... In short, while it may well be true that they did feel themselves guilty of plagi...plajer...copying, their out of court settlement in no way proves that to be the case! Steve Chapin ARPA: sjc@gwen.cs.purdue.edu UUCP: ...!purdue!sjc ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 04:33:38 GMT From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) Subject: Ellison on Tape kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith) writes: >ranjit@atlantis.berkeley.edu (Ranjit Bhatnagar) writes: >> I recently purchased the Waldentapes edition of Harlan Ellison >> reading his "A Boy and His Dog" and "'Repent, Harlequin,' Said >> the Ticktockman." I strongly recommend this and any other tapes >> of > [edit edit burp..] >or not, though. I bought my copy in 1980 at Noreascon Two, and >suspect it was probably available only through specialty stores, >etc. There is a "Harlan Ellison Record Club" where a selected group of people (ie selected by the fact that they have heard of it) Can order recordings as they are produced of Ellison, by Ellison, from Ellison, the information about it is in the preface to an article reprinted in "An Edge in My Voice" (A collection of recent articles from a column of the same name- Similar to his famous "the (other) Glass Teat" - I highly recomend it) If there are enough of you out there without a copy to look this info up in - shame on you, no seriously, ask and I'll post. These recordings are, generally, only available directly from Ellison, he was selling the "Boy / Repent" tape here in Toronto when he was here a few months ago. Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 04:38:57 GMT From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) Subject: Ellison vs rec.arts.sf-lovers rwhite@netxcom.UUCP (Royal White) writes: >I think Harlan is persistent not rich. And I don't think Justice Right. Wrong. Persistant is an understatement (anyone heard the dead gopher story?) As for rich, to quote him "loaded" >favors him that much. I think Harlan has worked for what he has >gotten. If anything, Justice would favor a rich studio or network. Yes. Probably.- or at any rate they have bigger resourses. As I think I said when this started, Ellison had a witness ( someone on the set during filming) to the fact that when asked "where did the idea come from" the writer/director said "Oh, I'm just ripping off some old Ellison Outer limits scripts" (or something close) that's why it didn't make court, the studio didn't stand a chance. Ellison's origional request was simply to be given a line in the credits to the effect of "..would like to acknowledge the works of Harlan Ellison" This was rudely rejected by the writer, a lawsuit was NOT his first course of action, and money was NOT his initial objective. Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 20 May 87 1025-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #246 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 20 May 87 1025-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #246 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 20 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 246 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 May 87 06:02:52 GMT From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes: >SIASL = "Stranger in a Strange Land" >Several people have written (both on the net and to me privately), >that Heinlein did take on homophobia in SIASL. For those of you >that would like to defend that premise, please explain this excerpt >from Chapter 29 (p. 303 in my edition) (and no, I don't think it is >out of context): [quote removed for brevity] The quote is from Jill Boardman, not one of the characters usually identified as Heinlein's "mouthpiece" (they are Mike and Jubal), and she makes clear she is only guessing Mike would reject homosexuals; she states specifically that "she was not sure that Mike would refuse a pass". It's dangerous enough to attribute the protagonists' attitudes to RAH - doing this with a minor character is entirely speculative. Overall, I've always felt RAH had a problem writing about sex. It's not his intellectual attitudes that are the problem, though. It seems to be more of an emotional thing. SIASL preaches very liberal, free attitudes toward sexuality, yet the "bedroom scenes", such as they were, give the impression that RAH was a bit shamed-faced to be writing them, as if he felt himself peeking through the keyhole into his characters' bedrooms. In later books he seemed to recognize this problem, and stuck more to having his characters simply talk about sex, and leave more of the practise offstage. I think this shyness can be confusing when attempting to dissect RAH's attitudes towards sex. The intellectual hesitancy he shows about homosexuality in SIASL disappears in later books, but the contrast between his characters' words and RAH's way of writing sex scenes is still there, confusing any effort to discern his sexual biases. >The rough translation as I see it? We don't have to worry about >homosexuality, because all homosexuals would be screened out with >the rest of the social degenerates. Simply untrue. SIASL just doesn't address the question of homosexuality head on. Your quote is one of the few mentions of it made in the book, and it's most ambiguous as a barometer of RAH's attitudes. There is also a strong suggestion of polymorphous sexuality within Mike's church that contradicts your hypothesis, and definite disdain for the kind of homophobia which runs in fear from the thought of men simply kissing or caressing one another. My own guess is that we see RAH's attitudes undergoing evolution in this book. His later novels often do address this issue directly, and leave no doubt that RAH's not in the gay-bashing business. >And the line about "very female women"?!!! Gag! What other kinds >are there? Heinlein makes me want to puke. This is silly. The context of the quote makes it very clear that, in this instance, "very female women" translates to exclusively heterosexual women, just as "masculine men" was used as an antonym for homosexuals. To take offense at this, in context, requires effort, I should think. And, again, the quote is from "Jill Boardman", not Robert A. Heinlein. Jill is portrayed as a character being "brought around" in her sexual attitudes by Mike, moving from attitudes normal to her culture, to the greater sexuality of Mike's religion. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 10:27:07 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes: > (Jill wasn't sure how far this went; she had explained > homosexuality, after Mike had read about it and failed to grok -- > and had given him rules for avoiding passes; she knew that Mike, > pretty as he was, would attract such. > > The rough translation as I see it? We don't have to worry about > homosexuality, because all homosexuals would be screened out with > the rest of the social degenerates. On the other hand if you read it as mike not understanding the prevailing cultural reaction to homosexuality and jill's concern that she was failing in her attempt to socialize mike because he didn't see a distinction between homo/hetro-sexuality, it rings a differnt chime maybe? I seem to recall one or two other novels where Heinlein, while not being in favor of homosexuality, deals sympathetically with the individuals and is more critcial about society's reactions to individuals doing what they please. Sorry, your interpretation is for the birds... George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 18:06:56 GMT From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL > k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) > SIASL = "Stranger in a Strange Land" > > Several people have written (both on the net and to me privately), > that Heinlein did take on homophobia in SIASL. For those of you > that would like to defend that premise, please explain this > excerpt from Chapter 29 (p. 303 in my edition) (and no, I don't > think it is out of context): As an aside, for those who would like to advance the premise that Heinlein did NOT take on homophobia in SIASL, please explain Jubal's advice to whozizface regarding his (whoziz's) reaction to Mike's sexual advances. First of all Kathy seems to be equating what *Jill* thinks with what *Heinlein* thinks. This is considerably less tenable than equating what Jubal thinks with what Heinlein thinks, and even this is not as tenable as it might seem. Now, examining what is said here, we find that Jill is afraid that Mike will *NOT* turn down a homosexual advance. That is, she is explicitly worried that homophobia IS NOT A NATURAL (or "given") STATE. She is worried that she must somehow CONVINCE Mike to be a homophobe, because she distrusts his natural tendencies, and homosexuality is a social embarrassment she would rather not deal with. Upon further reflection, she decides that she has nothing to worry about, because all his contacts have been conditioned to be homophobic, and the exceptions have been so traumatized by society that Mike will probably "grok a wrongness" in them... so nothing to worry about. The message is very strong here. Homophobia is a conditioned state, not natural at all. And any consequences of homosexual activity are from society, not a result of the act itself. Note that I have no way of knowing that that is what Heinlein meant by this passage. But I CAN say that that's the way I read it when I read the book. As to: > [...] the line about "very female women"?!!! Gag! What other > kinds are there? I took this to mean that they had been heavily socialized to "feminine" roles, and that the "very masculine men" had been socialized to "masculine" roles. As opposed to Mike, who, lacking such socialization, was "androgynous". It is very clear, I think. We are looking at a situation where a normal human (Mike) is trying to be crammed into a pre-stamped role, dictated by a society, not by nature. And all this is from the viewpoint of Jill, who at this time still thinks that the conventions of her society are laws of nature. Heinlien is talking about what Jill thinks of the situation... not how the situation "really is", nor what Heinlein himself thinks of it. > Heinlein makes me want to puke. Well, there are times when Heinlein makes me nauseous, too. The first few pages of "The Number of the Beast", for one example among many where the sexual behavior of two of the main characters strikes me as... well... let's just say "silly". Silly to the point of nausea, mind you. But I usually just repress my gag reflex and get on with the story, and avoid execrating Heinlein for being Politically Incorrect. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 19:37:53 GMT From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes: >The rough translation as I see it? We don't have to worry about >homosexuality, because all homosexuals would be screened out with >the rest of the social degenerates. > >And the line about "very female women"?!!! Gag! What other kinds >are there? Heinlein makes me want to puke. The problem is that you see charcters in a novel as mouthpieces for Heinlein's views. They aren't people in thier own right, and they aren't allowed to change and grow. Jill is one of the two characters whose prudish attitudes changes the most throughout the novel. Of course, you will never see that if you demand that Jill either start out as the feminist model of female hero, or automatically become enlightened between chapters N and N+1. As for the ``very female women'' -- how many people do you know that divides them into ``butch'' and ``fem''? I guess even in the enlightened feminist lesbian community there are people who make the same distinction. Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 87 00:40:10 GMT From: 6065833@pucc.princeton.edu (Una Smith) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: [other peoples comments deleted] [some stuff deleted] >Heinlein's works have often seemed a bit dubious of homosexuality >to me. [...] Of course, Heinlein's own feelings are not relevant; >it's what's in his books that matters, and that's what I'm trying >to stick to addressing. > >I guess it boils down to, how much of a personally repugnant >philosophy can you accept, if you feel that the writing is good and >the story interesting? I liked both STARSHIP TROOPERS and THE >FOREVER WAR. If you don't feel that the writing is good or the >story disinteresting, then by all means, reject the book. For me, >Heinlein is like 'Doc' Smith in that other discussion going on; >I'll forgive him his trespasses because he didn't have a clue :-). >I wish he had had one, though. I agree with the authors sentiments. I read Heinlein USUALLY, DESPITE what I consider to be unpleasant attitudes about many things, especially women. I couldn't finish a couple of his books. However, the author of the FOREVER WAR is JOE HALDEMAN, whom I have heard say in no uncertain terms that he finds Heinlein's politics and treatment of women in his books offensive (although he admires many of the story concepts Heinlein has come up with). Haldeman would be offended, I think, to have Heinlein identified as the author of something as anti-militaristic and egalitarian and fair to women as the FOREVER WAR. Una Smith 6065833@PUCC ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 02:22:00 GMT From: husc6!necntc!frog!sc@RUTGERS.EDU (STella Calvert) Subject: Contradiction? rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes: >stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes: >>Heinlein's revolutionary is not only stealing from his comrades, >>he is acting contrary to their interests! >No, he is acting contrary to what they want. > ... De la Paz feels himself morally obliged to con the loonies >for their own good. > >An interesting wiew, considering that he (or at >least Manny) thinks that the imposition of laws forbidding people to >do this or that - FOR THEIR OWN GOOD - is totally immoral. > >Question: Is this contradiction real or imagined? Imaginary, I think. When you make a law, you are saying "I, a fallible human being, am ordering you not to act as you think right because I don't trust you not to hurt yourself." When you hire a professional (and Prof was the closest thing to a professional they had), you're freely choosing an expert to represent you and placing your trust in hir competence. When _I_ do that, I expect the expert to do what's in my interest, not what I want. So to me, the situations are exactly opposite. Stella Calvert Guest Account: {cybvax0!decvax}!frog!sc ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 87 21:23:39 GMT From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) Subject: Heinlein/Stranger Why is it that whenever an authors character behaves as they should everyone jumps down the authors throat and claims that these are his views !? The quote shows us Jill's own attitudes, and hence how she feels mike would react (if he were her). Over and over, in that book, do people decide "how mike would feel/react/etc" and the get the shock of their life finding out they were wrong. (take Jubal's reluctance to introduce him to religion) If an author wants us to look at something in a new light then he must also remind us of how we look at it now. Setting up a character with one opinion and having that character's ideas shot down is an effective way do do so. We identify with Jill's notion...(Ya, thats right, thats how he'd handle it..) then once we are comfortable that Mike will react like we think he should we too get shocked out of our narrow minds when he doesn't If I recall correctly, (its been a while) Heinlein's "asexual/ambisexual" ideas (like the ones we see in _Time_Enough_ and already discussed to death here) come to dominate once mike's religion is founded. In the inner sanctum love is abundant and on the whole gender free. Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 87 21:47:13 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: attributions (was Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL) 6065833@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes: >sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: >>I guess it boils down to, how much of a personally repugnant >>philosophy can you accept, if you feel that the writing is good >>and the story interesting? I liked both STARSHIP TROOPERS and THE >>FOREVER WAR. > > [ ... ] the author of the FOREVER WAR is JOE HALDEMAN, whom I have >heard say in no uncertain terms that he finds Heinlein's politics >and treatment of women in his books offensive (although he admires >many of the story concepts Heinlein has come up with). Haldeman >would be offended, I think, to have Heinlein identified as the >author of something as anti-militaristic and egalitarian and fair >to women as the FOREVER WAR. NO NO NO! I was not saying that Heinlein wrote THE FOREVER WAR. (Well, if that's what you heard, I guess it is what I was saying to you, but in the context of the discussion I really think I was being pretty clear.) The point was that I liked *both* (Heinlein's) STARSHIP TROOPERS and (Haldeman's) FOREVER WAR, *despite* the fact that they espouse diametrically opposed theories of politics, morality, and damn near everything. THE FOREVER WAR was referenced in another article on this subject, which is probably why I didn't give a full attribution. My apologies if I was confusing; I do know who wrote what and I do know how the philosphies differ (and I do know which one I like more :-) ). Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 87 22:04:20 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL 6065833@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes: > I agree with the authors sentiments. I read Heinlein USUALLY, > DESPITE what I consider to be unpleasant attitudes about many > things, especially women. I couldn't finish a couple of his > books. > > However, the author of the FOREVER WAR is JOE HALDEMAN, whom I > have heard say in no uncertain terms that he finds Heinlein's > politics and treatment of women in his books offensive (although > he admires many of the story concepts Heinlein has come up with). > Haldeman would be offended, I think, to have Heinlein identified > as the author of something as anti-militaristic and egalitarian > and fair to women as the FOREVER WAR. I'm not so sure the original poster was confused about this. There are a number of books, Forever War and Armour by John Steakly that start from a similar point but go in other directions. These serve to create a contrast with Starship Troopers, but neither prove nor disprove the arguments that Heinlein seems to be be presenting. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 22 May 87 0906-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #247 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 22 May 87 0906-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #247 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 22 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 247 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Feminism in SF (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 May 87 07:44 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Smith and Sexism All this discussion of dated sexism in older SF makes me appreciate the tact many authors, such as Asimov (I'm thinking especially of the David Starr series), took -- they just don't have female characters. I know I find it much easier to get into such books than those with wimpy female characters. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 May 1987 13:51:14-PDT From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Do you believe in magic?) Subject: Sexism in Science Fiction This is a quickly composed sketch of my feelings about the changing attitude toward women in science fiction. Coming off the top of my head, I'm sure it has errors, and I can't back up many of my statements. But it is fodder for discussion, and it's a discussion I think worthy of both male and female netters. The History of Sexism in Science Fiction Our biannual arguments about the "grand masters" of science fiction (Heinlein, E.E. Doc Smith, Asimov, etc.) have a recurrent theme that readers seem to recognize and many will criticize: sexist attitudes toward women. This has prompted a journey into the past in my mind, and I wanted to share my thoughts with you. I began reading science fiction at the age of 12 (or so), when I was finally allowed to borrow books from the Adult Section of my small town's library. One of my first forays into this level of literature (as the librarians would have us understand it), brought me to the corner bookshelf that contained perhaps 100 titles under the heading of Science Fiction (many, of course, rightly belonged under Fantasy, but I'm sure that the staid ladies would never have such a fluffy-sounding heading in their collection). I gobbled these 100 in one summer, and overcame my distaste for the Children's Section long enough to discover a Science Fiction shelf for juveniles, as well. In those days (during the end of the 1960's), the stuff of which dreams were made had changed little since World War II. Technology was still considered the domain of the scientist, and the Moon Landing was hailed as the End of Science Fiction as we knew it. After all, once man stood on another heavenly body, those science fiction ideas were fulfilled. It was commonly understood that mankind had broken the barrier to outer space, so the last frontier was breached. Many of us thought we would have no more new science fiction. This was my belief, as a gullible teenager. But in those days, I understood myself to be a unique breed -- a female science fiction reader! The science fiction I read was geared toward adolescent males with pubescent fantasies of cowboys in space. (What was the name of the series -- by Asimov, I think -- about the red-headed, freckled kid who travelled among the stars with his teenage friend, and (I believe) a monkey. Does this ring any bells for you?) All of the library acquisitions for science fiction were published from 1930 through 1970, and most had young, male characters in situations designed to bolster the developing male ego. I read books by Asimov and Heinlein with the understanding that they were written for teenage boys, not girls. My exploration of the genre continued through science fiction magazines, and I continued to encounter the same narrow viewpoint. The result was exciting, comic-book level of fiction that I could enjoy during those early "tom-boy" years when I was quite certain my female gender had been a genetic fluke, and I rejected feminity with a passion. During the 1970's, social conciousness was "raised" from the issues of the Vietnam War and the Watergate scandal, to Feminism and Back-To-Nature. Then we were treated to the movie, Silent Running (Back-To-Nature). Not nearly as good, was a TV movie called (I think) She, about a world run by women who keep men as slaves and for reproduction. "She" was a terrible movie, but it serves as an example of reverse-sexism. In the growing awareness of women's plight, the pendulum swung toward rapant anti-male attitudes, bra-burning, and female communes. Apparently, Marion Zimmer Bradley has been so unfortunate as to become a rallying point for holdovers from this era. Also see "The World According To Garp" by John Irving, for a description of these radical feminists. Perhaps the best thing I can say about the '70s is that they ended, and the '80s are different. With all the divorces in the '70s and the growing number of young people going into the workplace without plans for marrying and having conventional families, the single woman is no longer remarkable. Men have become adjusted to the idea of women in business and in government positions. Women have, for the most part, overcome the prejudices of previous decades. During the late '70s, the feminist movement became a living joke, examplified by that movie, She. The backlash against feminism became apparent in shoot-em-up, special-effects vehicles, like the first Star Wars movie. Princess Leia is the standard "damsel in distress," whose main contribution to the plot is the fact that she owns the 'droids, and programs R2D2 to get help from a man -- Obi-Wan Kenobi. During the 80's, women are becoming accepted. Our particular strengths are more valued, and it has become commonplace to see women and men working the same jobs, for the same pay, with the same responsibilities. I'm sure this is not true everywhere, yet, but I'm equally sure that more backward parts of the world will be forced to conform in the future. Now women are reading science fiction, too, and the genre is changing to accomodate the needs of the female reader and the works of the female author. Some women who have previously written under male pseudonyms have revealed their true identities. Andre Norton, C.J.Cherryh, and others recently discussed on the net, have "come out of the closet" of male disguise, for the main reason that we now recognize the female portion of the science fiction audience. Women, like men, need role models and heroes (or heroines). In the past, the predominantly male readership of science fiction dictated the heavy male orientation of the science fiction of the 30s through the 70s. The more recent recognition of women as a significant audience has prompted a reorientation of science fiction themes, characters, and plots. The movie Alien, is an example of the acceptance of women to the "men's club" of science fiction. So, when you criticize those old standbys, like Heinlein, for their "sexist attitudes," remember that most contemporary fiction is published for one and only one purpose - financial gain. Coming from his environment, with the intention to publish and make money, Heinlein was only following convention in his early novels, like Glory Road. His predominantly male audience would presumably be satisfied with the emphasis on male superiority and would not put up with strong female characters. Of course, Heinlein continues to churn out the same stereotypical characters today, in our "enlightened" decade, but I attribute that to the reactionary portion of the public whose attitudes (and, therefore, requirements of fiction) have not changed with the times. This is not a denigration of Heinlein fans, but a recognition that these folks do exist. On the other hand, female authors are becoming successful, and science fiction has become more diversified, dealing with important social and technological questions. The genre, now shared between the sexes, has improved tremendously, in my opinion, since 1970. I think it is unfair to judge previous works by these standards. It is equally important to apply our new standards to fiction coming out today, and, rather than base our opinion of value of a new piece of fiction on the author's reputation, we must also consider the author's ability to meet the needs of a changing public. ------------------------------ From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Smith and Sexism Date: 14 May 87 18:28:52 GMT Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM (Lisa Wahl) writes: >All this discussion of dated sexism in older SF makes me appreciate >the tact many authors, such as Asimov (I'm thinking especially of >the David Starr series), took -- they just don't have female >characters. I know I find it much easier to get into such books >than those with wimpy female characters. Lisa, do you really mean 'tact', or 'tack'? I doubt that Asimov et al. left female characters out in order to be tactful... I haven't read the David Starr series, but in general the presence or absence of female characters doesn't bother me; it's the way the characters of either gender act that bothers me or not. If the men are acting like Space Cadets in standard fifties sf style, then standard side-kick women don't make it much worse, just more of the same. A sidelight relating to the Smith/dated sexism discussion: I liked the Foundation series very much, but when the new book came out I disliked it partly for its sexism. His female characters had not changed since the original series, and what I would accept as written then, I won't accept nowadays. (Of course, he may have been deliberately trying to recreate the style of the earlier books. That's his right, but I didn't enjoy it.) Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 19:12:34 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!logico!slovax!flak@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Flak) Subject: Re: Sexism in Science Fiction From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Do you believe in magic?) Just adding my $.02 to the discussion. > Our biannual arguments about the "grand masters" of science > fiction (Heinlein, E.E. Doc Smith, Asimov, etc.) have a recurrent > theme that readers seem to recognize and many will criticize: > sexist attitudes toward women. This has prompted a journey into > the past in my mind, and I wanted to share my thoughts with you. Well, at least Asimov does have one female hero in his Foundation "Trillogy" Bayta Darrel (sp?) who defeats the Mule. Her grand-daughter also figures prominately in the preservation of the Second Foundation. (BTW: From other readings of Asimov's works - I think the grand-daughter is a fictionalized version of Asimov's own daughter). > The backlash against feminism became apparent in shoot-em-up, > special-effects vehicles, like the first Star Wars movie. Princess > Leia is the standard "damsel in distress," whose main contribution > to the plot is the fact that she owns the 'droids, and programs > R2D2 to get help from a man -- Obi-Wan Kenobi. Oh, I don't know, she seemed to handle a blaster pretty well. I don't think she came off looking *that* helpless. She certainly came out better in the "character" department compared with the innocent, but somewhat scatter brained Luke, or the Hot-Headed, "shoot first - think later" Hans. > Women, like men, need role models and heroes (or heroines). Amen. Lord knows, we can't depend upon drug-addict sports heros, leading politicians, or even evangelists anymore! > I think it is unfair to judge previous works by these standards. True! Yet some older works do hold up. Tolkien has Galadriel and Eowen as heroic figures. In fact, there's a strong feminist line in regards to Eowen. Tolkien clearly displays her struggle with her identity and her drastic measure to overcome the sexism prevalent in her culture. (Sort of reminds me of the story of Joan of Arc). Dan Flak R & D Associates 3625 Perkins Lane SW Tacoma,Wa 98466,206-581-1322 {psivax,ism780}!logico!slovax!flak {hplsla,uw-beaver}!tikal!slovax!flak ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 87 19:08:37 GMT From: hollombe@ttidca.tti.com (The Polymath) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series (not really) allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: [In response to criticism of the "Lensman" series.] > 'Tain't no such thing as women's equality in books before the > '70's. > (And, truth to tell, little of it now.) For those who insist on complaining about the least hint of sexism in any book, I suggest you try reading one of the "Fu Man Chu" series by Sax Rhomer (sp?) and find out what REAL sexism is about. The women in E.E. "Doc" Smith's universe may sometimes be subordinate, but they are generally educated, talented, intelligent and capable of taking action when necessary. Compare with Rhomer's world where, for example, any education is considered wasted on a woman and the women agree! This point was explicitly made, in so many words, in _Bride of Fu Man Chu_, the only book in the series I've read. Not surprisingly, it was the arch-villain Fu Man Chu who required his that bride-to-be be educated, much to the horror of the hero (whose name escapes me). Then there's John "Whips 'n' Chains" Norman ... bleah. But even _he_ has _some_ strong female characters. For his time, Smith was rather progressive in his attitudes towards women, who had only recently won the right to vote. As for his writing style, well ... I kept thinking he'd _have_ to run out of superlatives sooner or later. He never did. Amazing. Jerry Hollombe Citicorp(+)TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 450-9111, x2483 Santa Monica, CA 90405 hollombe@TTI.COM {csun|philabs|psivax|trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 87 00:07:10 GMT From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura) Subject: Re: Sexism in Science Fiction Japan is still a fairly sexist place to be from all current accounts (I've never been there myself but being of Japanese ancestry I have tended to be interested). In a way, the surprising thing about Japanese Anime's is how they've kept up with western thinking. I'm not going to hold up Macross as a great breakthrough in this respect (althought the all female bridgecrew and the role of Lisa Hayes were probably pretty revolutionary considering when the shows were written--even by North American standards). What was more surprising was the Jean Francais/Dana Sterling character who, whether "realistic" or not presented and interesting personality to think about. It absolutely amazes me that a female character of such self assurance could be written in Japan. Ok, maybe a word about realism: I know a girl who at one point I suddenly realized was *very* much like Dana Sterling. She has her own battleground and approaches life with much the same zest. After watching a quite a few episodes it hit me that "My G*d! It's _____!" Like Dana, she tends to succeed in what she does, but not without making a fair bit of noise. Another revolutionary character was Rook Bartley. I don't think anyone has ever written a female heroine who has the shear bitterness towards her fellows as Rook. Her absolute rudeness is unprecedented. When Scott and Rand "come to her rescue" for the first time in a barroom brawl, she gets up and gruffly says "Why'd ya have to bud in!", and that's among the tamer moments in that series. Here we have some pretty far flung examples of female personalities. How is it that these are coming out of Japan and not North America? Furthermore, the evidence I have is that Japanese *males* were responsible for these characters. My overall feeling is that North American writers in pretty much *all* fields, and male and female writers equally have written pretty dull women compared to a Rook Bartley, and possibly a Dana Sterling. (Do I have to ask for comments to this statement? :-) Cheers! Jim Omura 2A King George's Drive, Toronto, (416) 652-3880 ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 22 May 87 0917-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #248 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 22 May 87 0917-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #248 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 22 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 248 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 May 87 13:19:03 GMT From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) Subject: Lotr v elder sagas I will concede that the way LOTR was written, and the messages it contains, require the existence of the 'hobbit',i.e. the insignificant little characters who are instrumental in saving the world. However this is really a side issue to my original letter. What I really wanted to get across was that I consider the Elder Sagas as given in the Silmarillion, and the Unfinished and Lost Tales are far superior works of great emotive power, epic and tragedy, and deliberately written so, as opposed to LOTR which is written as a novel,i.e. as detailed account of a small part of Middle Earth history (no matter how important). It almost appears as if, having this vast tragic history as background, Tolkien wanted to aim for a point at which he could stop and not require to write any more recent history. Thus he accelerated all the different ideas towards each other until a time became suitable to tie up every loose end in one fell swoop. And perhaps the idea of the weak link of the hobbit being the eventual redemption of Middle Earth was aesthetically pleasing as a piece of literature. Sorry for getting too verbose towards the end there. My thoughts just followed a logical idea and I kept typing. An interesting idea though, eh? jml ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 87 18:56:47 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!logico!slovax!flak@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Flak) Subject: Re: LOTR vs. the Silmarillion Jeff Okamoto writes: > I would take some exception to the point about Gandalf. Without > him, the West would have fallen... Gandalf *did* do one thing which makes this statement true, namely: discovering Frodo's ring was the *one*, convincing Bilbo to pass it on, and Frodo to attempt to destroy it. > It was he who entered Dol Guldur twice and came out with Thrain's > map and ring. Just a minor flame. Gandalf got the map and key; Sauron got the ring. Only the one and the three remained "at large". For the most part, I agree with you that Gandalf was a "prime mover" in the War of the Ring. However, he is also something of a wise *ss in that he usually had some information which he held back. There are several good examples of this. When he brought Theoden to the Orthanc. Gandalf *knew* that Sauarman was overthrown, yet he didn't disclose this information to the king (nor did he tell the king about those he found that were not slain, but merely scattered until they reached the Fords of Isen). Then there's the "game" he played with Aragon, Gimli, and Legolas upon their meeting in Fangon. He also knew that a Palinar (sp?) existed at the Orthanc, and at Minas Tirith, yet didn't disclose this information until each "became public". > He is the Saviour of the West. I'd say; "He is one of the Saviours of the West". Dan Flak R & D Associates 3625 Perkins Lane SW Tacoma,Wa 98466 206-581-1322 {psivax,ism780}!logico!slovax!flak {hplsla,uw-beaver}!tikal!slovax!flak ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 13:14:41 GMT From: adb@elrond.calcomp.com (Alan D. Brunelle) Subject: Silmarillion vs. LoTR vs. Hobbit vs. Cottage of Lost Play I have been following some of the discussion on the merits of the Silmarillion over LoTR (and the discussion of Gandalfs role in that latter story). I was wondering how many had read The Book of Lost Tales (Part I) which starts with the Cottage of Lost Play? I have skimmed it once, and have just finished the 2nd reading, and feel that while it definately does not have the polish that the Silmarillion does it is just wonderful to see the same story told in a different way. I would also like to add my $0.02 in on the two discussions going on: 1. I feel that one has to realize the reasons behind the writing of the 3: _The Hobbit_ *was* originally written for his children - therefore it should not be considered in any other ligth, but that of a wonderful children's book (though there is some pretty heavy moral stuff and other adult portions of the book which tends to make it kind of hard to strictly classify it thusly.) LoTR was written for those that screamed for more 'hobbit' stories - though this is a much more adult book. The Silmarillion was Tolkein's life work - if one has read some of Christopher T.'s editorial works, one can see that this story was Tolkeins masterpiece lifelong work - it evolved around the languages involved and was constantly being amended or polished or scrapped and redone. I don't think that it is fair to compare the books against each other, but to enjoy each for it's individual character and grace. 2. As to Gandalf's role in LoTR I would think that it is quite clear that his (and the other Istari) purpose was to assist the Free Peoples in their fight against Sauron by forming a last great union of the Peoples. I don't think that he is in any way THE saviour of the West, but more in the light of THE coordinator of the west. It was he that got ALL of the different nations to concern themselves with the menace. (If you would like me to choose my pick for THE saviour of the West, it would have to be ... Samwise Gamgee! Read the LoTR carefully, and you will realize that Sam really carried Frodo from the time that they left the company to the Fire of Doom. If that Ring were not destroyed all of the valiant efforts by Aragorn and Gandalf &c would have come to naught - of course without the valiant efforts by the above the chance to destroy the ring wouldn't have happened...) Alan D. Brunelle uucp: ...{decvax,harvard,savax,wanginst}!elrond!adb adb@elrond.CalComp.COM phone: (603) 885-8145 us mail: Calcomp/Lockheed DPD (PTP2-2D02) Hudson NH 03051-0908 ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 06:22:24 GMT From: ABC%PSUVMB.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Tolkien: Silmarillion versus LOTR From: William LeFebvre >... tide. ONLY a hobbit could have snuck in to Mordor without >attracting Sauron's attention. None of the "grand" beings could >have done it. And even in the end, the hobbits were not strong >enough to overcome the overwhelming Evil of the Ring---it was >destroyed by accident. I'm not so sure about that. The whole point seems to be that the Ring, in order to "rule them all ... and in the darkness bind them" must bind *itself* to its victims. In other words, it doesn't make itself more powerful by enslaving everyone, it just makes a mess of the whole world which Sauron wanted to be more powerful than. Sauron has even *reduced* himself in his attempt to get absolute power, by chaining his power to the ring. And it seems very fitting that, in the end, all of Sauron's chains turn out to be as strong as the weakest link: Gollum. As for the question of whether the ring was destroyed by accident, I think that Tolkien meant for that to be abiguous. He said in a letter that he had considered an alternate ending in which Gollum's momentary repentance (just before Sam calls him a "sneak") is more lasting, and when Frodo claims the Ring, Gollum takes it away from him in order to *deliberately* jump into the Fire. Gollum is perhaps the one character who really understood that death was preferable to anything that the Ring had to offer. But Fordo also felt something of this. I wish that I could quote what he said to Sam about what the burden of the Ring was like, but I only remember fragments of it: for example, that there was no veil between him and the wheel of fire. I think that was some of Tolkien's most powerful, and frightening, writing (Silmarillion included), and also an effective illustration of his thesis that to seek power for its own sake is an inherently destructive - and also self-destructive - action. Alex Clark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 87 03:10:52 -0700 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: LOTR vs. the Silmarillion Joseph McLean writes: > The mystique and epic quality of the elder sagas far exceed LOTR > (itself a pleasant little story) and especially the Hobbit. Does > anyone agree that the invention of hobbits totally depreciates the > 'reality' of the later ages? Does anyone know why Tolkien > introduced them in the first place? Was it simply to write a story > for his children? I mean you can hardly expect a group of 4 foot > high plump hairy 'cute and cuddly' gnomes to rival the grandness > and tragedy of the gods the elves, man, dwarf, the savage early > orcs etc unless you are a child. . . . Well, I certainly don't agree about the hobbits. Charley Wingate has already made a good point of contrasting their small stature with the grand stature of the Great of the Elder Days, so I'll point out something else: The hobbits are our eyes in Middle Earth. They are the race with whom we can best empathise: even the Men are not as close to us, being still very much the product of an Elven-allied society. We have much more in common with the Shire than with Numenor or Gondor. In fact, every time I read the opening chapters, a very comfortable English feeling settles over me: the Shire is like an idealised England. Safe, secure, Normal. In fact, of course, a major point of the whole story is that it is not so, and that, if its safety is to be assured, great sacrifice is going to be required of its inhabitants. Frodo himself says essentially this to Sam when he finally leaves for the Grey Havens at the end. Why do some people regard everything shorter than Darth Vader as "cute and cuddly?" Ted Sandyman wasn't. Old Gaffer Gamgee wasn't. Farmer Maggot wasn't. Frodo and Bilbo weren't. And I'd sooner cuddle a cactus than any of the Sackville-Bagginses. I believe you are half right: Tolkien posted installments to his son. But they would hardly have been of a children's story: Christopher was serving with the RAF in South Africa, if I remember rightly. >I don't know about that; I find the ruins of Isengard to be one of >the most striking images in the who thing. My own vote is for the terrifying descriptions of Mordor, and of the hideous plain to its north. But I know just what you mean. >. . . Gandalf, while he is perhaps the most powerful of the forces >of Good, is limited, and is controlled by a host of frailties. For a very important reason: the first time the Valar sent a force to deal with Melkor and Sauron, they did the most obvious thing: use full power against them. It defeated Melkor alright, but it smashed living hell out of Middle Earth: the subcontinent of Beleriand was utterly destroyed. In their horror at what they had done to Middle Earth while trying (in part) to save it, the Valar decided never again to enter it in open force, and that all their agents must enter it discretely, using their power only indirectly. Which, of course, emphasises your point: Gandalf does have frailties and quirks of character. He would be much less interesting, much less personally attractive, if he hadn't. >. . .Gandalf, on the other hand, serves mostly as a distraction >(for both the reader and the Bad Guys!); he's very powerful, when >he is not actively thwarted, he is deliberately trying to look like >the center of the action, which he never really is after the first >book. The one real action he takes after that point is to expell >Saruman from Orthanc, and even that is a bit of a decoy. I feel a little guilty here, because I simply can't agree (and everything else you say rings so true). Gandalf was the prime mover, the catalyst and shaker without whom, right to the end, the West would never have united. I believe Benjamin Franklin remarked that "... if we do not hang together, we shall assuredly hang separately", and Sauron would certainly have "hanged" the West piecemeal if Gandalf, against considerable reluctance and uninterest, had not united it against him. Furthermore, his personal deeds are numerous: slaying the Balrog, distracting Sauron while Frodo wore the Ring on Amon Hen, healing Theoden (could Rohan otherwise ever have come to Gondor? Would Saruman otherwise have been defeated?) uniting the City's last defence when Denethor succumbed, diverting Sauron's attention from Imlad Morgul when he learned Frodo had taken that way -- the list is long. >To me, then, the two works really cannot be compared against one >another; I prefer LOTR, but I don't think that this means it is the >better work. It is a question of taste. I think that is very true, but I also think it's a question of objective: LOTR was essentially the personal account of the hobbits: their record of the Great War, and what they did in it (partly so that the hobbits would not again take for granted the gentle life they had in the Shire); but the earlier material is an Epic, written by those whose breadth of vision (not to mention lifespan) was well suited for thinking on epic lines. I too like LOTR better, without particularly feeling it the better work. I'm just more comfortable with it. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 87 22:38:08 GMT From: k@eddie.mit.edu (Kathy Wienhold) Subject: Feminism in Tolkien?! Dan Flak writes: >Tolkien has Galadriel and Eowen as heroic figures. In fact, there's >a strong feminist line in regards to Eowen. Tolkien clearly >displays her struggle with her identity and her drastic measure to >overcome the sexism prevalent in her culture. While perhas better than the typical "male superhero saves damsel in distress" format of a lot of science fiction, I would hardly call this a "strong feminist line." After all, what happens to Eowen? She falls in love once, but because "the man of her dreams" doesn't return her affection she decides to go seek death in battle (motivational problems, but so far, okay). She fights in battle, does heroic deeds, is injured, and spends the rest of the war in the houses of healing (still okay, so far). However, what happens to her there? She falls for her "true love", and decides she no longer wants to be a "shield maiden", but will devote herself to healing (as I recall). Now what do we have here as a tale of female maturation? Only irresponsible adolescents want to play male "games", and that "real women" want to do traditionally feminine, service-oriented things. Granted for when Tolkien was writing, it's not bad, but it's not that great by current standards. Kay k@mit-eddie.UUCP kay@MIT-XX.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 14:38:45 GMT From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Re: Feminism in Tolkien?! k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes: > (still okay, so far). However, what happens to her there? She > falls for her "true love", and decides she no longer wants to be a > "shield maiden", but will devote herself to healing (as I recall). > Now what do we have here as a tale of female maturation? Only > irresponsible adolescents want to play male "games", and that > "real women" want to do traditionally feminine, service-oriented > things. I am sorry, but I think that anyone who would rather cure the sick and infirm is a lot more mature than someone who wants to go out and hack another individual to death. Sure the second is sometimes necessary, but to believe that it is the only thing in life like Eowen did is not the sign of someone who has matured. Also, why is healing a traditionally feminine service-oriented thing? It seems to me that there are a lot more male doctors than female ones, and from the way they talk about nurse shortages, a lot more male doctors than nurses of any kind. Medicine is an area where women have been held out of any recognized positons of authority for too long for it to be thought of as a feminine domain. Now, if Eowen had wanted to give up being a shield-maiden to become just Faramir's queen, then I think you would have a case against Tolkien. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 22 May 87 0930-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #249 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 22 May 87 0930-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #249 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 22 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 249 Today's Topics: Films - Creature from the Haunted Sea & Dark Crystal & Battle Beyond the Stars & Wavelength & 2001 (3 msgs) & Phantom of the Paradise & Bakshi & Japanimation & The Raven & Good/Bad SF Films (2 msgs) Radio - Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 May 87 12:15:16 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey Subject: Bad SF Movies Believe it or not, there *is* an SF movie even worse (IMHO) than PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE. Keep your eyes peeled for a cinematic disaster called CREATURE FROM THE HAUNTED SEA (1961), directed by Roger Corman, and starring Anthony Carbone, Betsy Jones-Morland, and many others of whom you've never heard. The plot, such as it is, involves Cubans (hey, topicality), gangsters, a fake sea monster, and a (gasp!) real sea monster, all commented on in pseudo-Sam-Spade style by the young protagonist, who has delusions of humor and beat-poet insight. The rubber suit for the monster makes Godzilla look convincing, the scenes are so poorly lit it seems as if the camera was wearing sunglasses (probably hoping not to be recognized), and the accompanying "music," especially the title song, is unbelievably wretched. Why is this movie worse than PLAN 9? Because trying hard and totally unsuccessfully to be funny is much more painful to the viewer than being inadvertently funny. BTW, I saw PLAN 9 and CFTHS as a double feature (lucky me!). The one saving grace for CRTHS is that it's 16 minutes shorter than PLAN 9. ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 87 02:12:30 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Bad movies From: Rich Zellich > Speaking of bad movies...was anyone else unlucky enough to see > "The Star Crystal" (or maybe it was "Space" Crystal - so bad I've > blanked part of my memory of it)? This was such a turkey that the > people who stayed all the way to the end (not many) were harassing > the guy taking tickets at the door "you should be ashamed to show > that movie in your theater!" - leaving the poor guy all flustered, > wondering what was wrong. > > Then there are the Miles O'Keefe "spaghetti sword & sorcery" > movies...sheesh! Would this be (*retch*) _Dark Crystal_? You know, the one with the dippy muppet/elf heroes, who the audience kept praying to be shot, burned, axe-murdered, or otherwise brutally abused (the half of the audience who didn't leave, that is...). Actually, I must admit to liking two things in it: 1. The beetle-like guards 2. "I'm not dead YET!" Eric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 87 13:58:27 EDT From: Castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Good/bad SF movies Somebody mentioned BATTLE BEYOND THE STARS... I saw that on network TV many long years ago... It was so campy I felt a need for a tent and a case of Deep Woods Off, but I enjoyed it nonetheless. Classic line: "Does your species have kissing?". George Peppard's character of a washed-up space cowboy was hilarious. Unfortunately I've forgotten virtually all of the character names, except Sador (nice original-sounding name, guys!!! :-) ). It takes a fair amount of suspension of disbelief, but I've watched enough Doctor Who to be expert at that. A wonderfully mindless little romp. ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 87 18:12:24 GMT From: harvard!adelie!munsell!klm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin McBride) Subject: Re: Good little-known low-budget SF movie ee173sdu@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (Jethro Bodean) writes: > If this one was mentioned I didn't see it... > > WAVELENGTH: There may be movies be the same name (I heard of >confusion over this point once) but basically it's aliens are on >earth and good people help them escape. Made late 70's I believe. > In many ways it's a precursor of STARMAN and actually gives the > > [mostly deleted] > >in the movie... Pay special attention to the final scene and you >will burst out laughing if you've seen STARMAN. (FX rip-off time..) Yes, I've seen this movie, although I don't remember when. I believe that I saw it on cable. Probably the saturday afternoon dumb B movie on USA. Actually, the movies aren't all bad (though most are), but I can't stand that jerk in the makeup and stupor man suit. Anyway, now that you mention it... I did see the movie. I probably came in halfway thru or so because I didn't remember the name. What caught my attention was your mention of the FX rip-off. When I saw STARMAN the first time and got to the end of the movie something clicked inside my brain and I thought, "Gawd, I've seen this scene before, but weren't there little green men?" That bothered me for quite a while as my memory is usually pretty good. I thought that maybe I was having those recurring nightmares again. You know, the one where Elvira handcuffs me to a dentists chair and forces me to watch PLAN 9 over and over again while she's administering the chinese water torture with Coors beer? :-) Kevin McBride Eikonix Corp. 23 Crosby Dr. Bedford, MA 01730 {{harvard,ll-xn}!adelie,{decvax,allegra,talcott}!encore}!munsell!klm ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 87 11:50:43 GMT From: th@tcom.stc.co.uk (Tony Hutchinson) Subject: 2001 Can anyone out there please explain to me what happened in the last 10 minutes or so of 2001. I saw the film without reading the book and I was totally lost at the end. I went out the next day and bought the book, but I'm still none the wiser. help ! Tony H. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 May 87 08:50 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: 2001 and obscurity Cc: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu I have long been fascinated by the theory among many SF fans and writers, that the more difficult something is to understand, the better it is. I can only guess that this is due to some ego kick gotten out of being able to say "YOU didn't understand it? Well, it was perfectly clear to ME!" Certainly Mr. Wiener seems to be on that trip. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 87 13:30:43 GMT From: seismo!enea!mapper!ksand@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Sandvik) Subject: Re: 2001 th@tcom.stc.co.uk (Tony Hutchinson) writes: > Can anyone out there please explain to me what happened in the > last 10 minutes or so of 2001. I saw the film without reading the > book and I was totally lost at the end. I went out the next day > and bought the book, but I'm still none the wiser.. Yeah, Stanley Kubrick mixed together a lot of universal mumbo-jumbo, some cheap effects and some heavy cutting and made even us who had read the book wonder what we were doing in the cinema... Seems like there always have to be a part in the movie the critics can't comprehend. :-) (maybe that is what the moviemakers call *art*) Kent Sandvik PS: 2011 is much better PSS: I don't like Ingmar Bergman for the same reasons as above ADDRESS: Vallgatan 7, 171 91 Solna Sweden PHONE: (46) 8 - 55 16 39 job, - 733 32 35 home ARPA: enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa UUCP: ksand@mapper.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 May 87 10:05:16 PDT From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Phantom of the Paradise > I'm glad to see that someone else appreciates this film, which I > think is one of the best movies I've ever seen. It is also one of > the most difficult films to find; apparently the studio that > released it didn't make much of an effort to distribute it widely, > so it wasn't seen by many people when it first came out (1974) and > no one was interested in rereleasing it or in television rights. > > It was written and directed by Brian DePalma (one of his first > films) and stars (among others) William Finney (I think) and Paul > Williams who wrote the music & lyrics to all the film's songs. > (Don't let this put you off; Paul Williams is good in this!) This > film is a rock & roll version of the Phantom of the Opera with > elements of the Faust legend thrown in. It is definitely out on video, and worth tracking down. It also starred Jessica Harper as Phoenix in her first film role. Paul Williams was just right as Swan -- it was played to some degree for camp, and worked perfectly (PotP is somewhere between a spoof and an homage of the great Universal horror films, done as a rock opera... ) It is also one of the few dePalma films that downplays gore, which I find refreshing. chuq ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 87 20:59:19 GMT From: rochester!ur-cvsvax!marcus@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Levin) Subject: Re: Bakshi's WIZARDS and Ian Miller boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes: > Bakshi ripped off the styles of more than just Vaughn Bode for > "Wizards". For years I tried to find out who did the very > characteristic covers for Ray Bradbury's paperbacks: very angular > etchings. It turned out to be a British artist named Ian Miller. > Many of the scenes in Wizards... were precisely in Ian Miller's > style. Copying style is a little fuzzier than copying characters, > but artists, if not the Copyright Office, still consider it > plagarism when unacknowledged. I do not know about the graphics, but in "Lord of the Rings", the song the elves sing about Gandalf is note for note the serious theme in "Jupiter: bringer of Jolity" from Holst' THE PLANETS. If Bakshi has no ethics about stealing music, I see no reason he should about other aspects of moviemaking. I consider this sort of behavior very distasteful. And now I will not even go see a Bakshi production if I know that it is his. Besides "LORD .." was awful (huch!! pooh ictch ACK!) anyway. marcus @ur-cvsvax ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 87 13:10:41 PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: new movie by Miyazaki-sensei To: Urusei-Yatsura%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU Miyazaki-sensei, who brought us Nausicaa and Laputa, has announced that he is coming out with a new movie. This is "about kids life in Japan 20-30 years ago" according to Animage magazine. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 87 21:06:34 GMT From: rochester!ur-cvsvax!marcus@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Levin) Subject: Re: Good F&SF Films you might not have thought of... jeffh@BRL.ARPA writes: >If anyone can think of any other fantasy (NOT swords and sorcery) >films, I would be interested in hearing about them. I have not seen it, but have been told that "The Raven" with B. Karloff and B. Lugosi(??) has one heck of a battle of magic that I am still dying to see. At least I consider this a fantasy film. marcus @ur-cvsvax ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 87 13:54 PDT From: "12338::MORGAN%sc.intel.com"@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: older sf films Several Expressionist classics are still occasionally seen in museums, film festivals, on PBS etc. "THE CABINET OF DR. CALIGARI" is probably the best known. "FREAKS" should be on any list. My personal favorite is Carl Dryer's "VAMPYR" (1933). A lyrical film, where dream and reality are often hard to distinguish, and the evil is mostly a felt rather than seen presence. It's been a while, but I remember a long scene where the hero dreams his death, and the terror of his immobility beneath the glass coffin lid is blended with the beauty of what he sees and hears, light through leaves, church bells, etc. Morgan Mussell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 87 15:15:30 CDT From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi) Subject: Good F&SF Films A couple of films I haven't seen mentioned here: COCOON - a warm-hearted film about life, death, and immortality. Contains many borrowed ideas that were well put together. Has some great performances as well. The FX could ahve been toned down or cut entirely. THE NATURAL - every baseball fan's fantasy come to life. Has many of the elements of classical fantasy - i.e. replace the bat with an excalibur-type sword, replace the owner with an evil king, ...etc. My nominee for the all time worst SF film is IT CAME FROM OUTER SPACE. I think that there are two versions: one was made in Hollywood and the other was, I assume, an amateur production. The version I saw had no dialogue - only a narrator explaining the apparent conversations of the actors. It seemed like half of the movie consisted of shots of blue sky. Frank Zappa described the Monster accurately as a pup tent with a giant inverted ice-cream cone for a head. Paper eyes. Paper fangs that flopped in the wind. Occasional glimpses of sneakers underneath the Monster. When the Monster shows up at a dance, a brawl breaks out. Damsels in distress leap into the Monsters mouth. This movie makes Plan 9 look like an Oscar nominee. marco@ncsc ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 19:49:24 GMT From: rochester!ur-tut!agoe@RUTGERS.EDU (Karl Cialli) Subject: The Star Wars Radio Series It's only been a few years now, but does anyone still remember the Star Wars Radio series? It was broadcast on National Public Radio in 1981 and 1983 and consisted of 13 half-hour episodes for Star Wars and 10 half-hour episodes for the Empire Strikes Back. All were produced in cooperation with Lucasfilm and featured Mark Hamill, Anthony Daniels, original music and sound effects. The other voices were from non-original actors/actresses but they sounded very close and they did an outstanding job. These included Lou Brock (one of the Admirals in Star Trek IV) as Darth Vader, Perry (Riptide) King as Han Solo and John Lithgow as Yoda. What I found most appealing about the series was it's injection of material not found in the films. For instance, the very first episode went into things like Luke's home life on Tatooine, a skyhopper race and a meeting with his friend Biggs Darklighter. The second episode tells of just how Princess Leia finds out about the Death Star plans and so on. Just by the fact that the series are 6.5 and 5 hours you can appreciate how much new material was added. Well, what I was hoping is that they would finally do a Jedi radio series. I have written to NPR and they had no real answer to give. A short time ago NPR was in financial dire straits and many programs had to be canceled. Then I had the luck to see and talk to Brian Daley, the scripter of the series. He was at a local bookstore autographing his new book. He spoke of the great time they had doing the series and that they would have continued on and done Jedi but it was postponed because the funds ran out. One interesting thing I had to ask him about concerned the torture scene of Leia by Vader aboard the Death Star (the whole scene was played out). In it, Vader drugs her and then pretending to be her father, trys to find the location of the rebel base. With the revelation of the "other" in Jedi, that whole sequence was too ironic! Daley claimed that he really didn't know Vader was indeed her father. I could go on about it but what it comes down is that I miss it. With no more movies in the works, the radio shows are something new, different and they also leave a lot to your imagination. Anyway the whole idea of anything I'm sure is on permanent hiatus and I just feel that it would be great if NPR could be convinced to continue it. The shows that I have on tape will probably become family heirlooms! Karl Cialli MCI International Inc. Dept. 433/875 2 International Drive Rye Brook, NY 10573 UUCP: {allegra,cmcl2,decvax,harvard,seismo}!rochester!ur-tut!agoe ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 22 May 87 0949-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #250 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 22 May 87 0949-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #250 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 22 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 250 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Asimov & Hogan & Leiber & Lewis & Tiptree & Zelazny (3 msgs) & Cyberpunk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 May 87 18:38:34 GMT From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok) Subject: Piers Anthony I just finished reading the fourth of Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality Series, WIELDING A RED SWORD, and I must say that I enjoyed it a great deal, almost as much as the first of the series. I really enjoy the way that he blends fantasy in with science fiction. Magic and science do mix, I guess. Are there any other books out there that do a good job of doing this same sort of thing? It'll really be interesting to see how he finishes the series up. There are an awful lot of potential loose ends to tie up. I say potential because they are only loose ends if he wants them to be. Otherwise, he'll probably just use the "And that's how it is" arguement. Will Satan prevail? We'll just have to wait and see. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 87 21:08:04 GMT From: rabbit1!dml@RUTGERS.EDU (David Langdon) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) says: > I just finished reading the fourth of Piers Anthony's Incarnations > of Immortality Series, WIELDING A RED SWORD, and I must say that I > enjoyed it a great deal, almost as much as the first of the > series. I really enjoy the way that he blends fantasy in with > science fiction. Magic and science do mix, I guess. Are there > any other books out there that do a good job of doing this same > sort of thing? ... If you haven't read them already, try Piers Anthony's "The Apprentice Adept" series: 1) Split Infinity 2) Blue Adept 3) Juxtaposition 4) Out of Phaze (new trilogy, first book) This series was excellent, has mixture of both SF and fantasy and seems to be widely enjoyed by others on the NET. David Langdon Rabbit Software Corp. (215) 647-0440 7 Great Valley Parkway East Malvern PA 19355 ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 18:21:03 GMT From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok) Subject: Robots, robots and yet more robots As long as we're on the subject of robots (or, more specifically, names of robots), I want to put in a hearty recommendation for Asimov's robot novels. I just finished THE CAVES OF STEEL and am now starting THE NAKED SUN. I have already read THE ROBOTS OF DAWN, ROBOTS AND EMPIRE and I, ROBOT. They're definitely some of the best sf that I have read, and the writing style is good, too. I know that when I was reading FOUNDATION'S EDGE, I thought he was making a cheap sales pitch for these books, but I'm really glad that I finally did read them. Funny how some of the older stuff is still some of the best. I would like to see yet more robot novels with Daneel Olivaw and his adventures. I won't say more because I may spoil the books for those who haven't read them. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: Thu 21 May 87 10:17:18-PDT From: Bob Pratt Subject: Hogan works in progress There will be a new hardback James Hogan book out this summer. It has (will have ?) an August release date, but some bookstores will have it in July, since Hogan will be on a book signing tour to coincide with the book's release. For instance, Future Fantasy in Palo Alto, where I got this info, will have copies of the book by July 8, when Hogan will be there for a signing. Check with the SF specialty store in your area now ! 3% APR financing available for a limited time only. Buy now. Bob ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 07:39:28 GMT From: adt@eagle.ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas) Subject: Re: Uncollected Leiber On the subject of one off Fafhred and the Grey Mouser stories I remember one called The_Two_Best_Thieves_In_Lankhmar where the dynamic duo get ripped off by two female thieves. I can't remember where it appeared, possbily in an anthology of S&S stories called The_Barbarian_Swordsmen. Tony Thomas adt@ukc.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 87 02:23:19 -0700 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis, Narnia and Christian allegory > I feel I must warn those who have not yet read the Narnian >Chronicles. Yes, they are some of the best fantasy ever written, >and yes, I recommend them (almost) unreservedly - except for the >last volume. "The Last Battle" is one of the most heavy-handed >pieces of Christian allegory it's ever been my misfortune to read. >Unless you are a born-again Christian (and maybe even if you are) >this is one to avoid. . . . I'm afraid I can't agree, and I am as completely non-religious as anybody I've ever heard of. It is a measure of Lewis' greatness that he could write such a fine series with the intention of allegory, and yet have it succeed excellently simply as a set of lovely stories. Until it was pointed out to me that these stories were allegory, I never realised it; and I can still easily ignore any allegorical suggestions while I read them. And I find this as true of The Last Battle as of any of them. If we talk about the last 10 or 20% of the book, I will start to agree with you: some heavy handedness does start to emerge. But by far the majority of the book I find rivetting, and heart-wrenching: I simply could not believe such a thing as the destruction of Narnia. And the marvellously engaging style of writing that he started with The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe continues here unabated. You can, if like, regard Aslan and Tash as Christ and the Devil (or whatever more subtle figure Tash represents); I don't. I simply regard them as Aslan and Tash, and it works perfectly for me. So please don't avoid The Last Battle just because you're wary of evangelism. You'll be doing yourself out of a fine story. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 87 10:44:11 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey Cc: csg-tg@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU Subject: Alice Sheldon (James Tiptree, Jr.) kills self and husband From Associated Press: McLean, Va., May 19: A critically acclaimed author who wrote science fiction under the name James Tiptree Jr. killed her husband and herself Tuesday [May 19] after telling her lawyer to call the police, the authorities said. The author, Alice Sheldon, 71 years old, and her husband, Huntington Sheldon, 84, were found in bed together with single gunshot wounds to their upper body, said officials of the Fairfax County police. Warren Charmichael, a spokesman for the police, said the shooting occurred about 3:30 a.m. in the couple's home in this fashionable suburb of Washington. The police said Mrs. Sheldon had been depressed about her husband, who became blind this year and was bedridden. She called her lawyer to warn him she was planning the killings and told him to call the police, the spokesman said. "Enormous Critical Success" Virginia Kidd, Mrs. Sheldon's agent, said the author telephoned her last week and had seemed "in her usual good spirits." Ms. Kidd described Mrs. Sheldon as "middling popular" as an author. "She had enormous critical success and was very highly thought of by intellectuals," Ms. Kidd said. "But she never made the numbers." Nevertheless, she won the respect of her peers. Isaac Asimov, the science fiction writer, said in a 1984 article that she "has produced works of the first magnitude and has won the wild adulation of innumerable readers." He said he believed the reason she had been overlooked by some was "that for some reason hidden in the recesses of her sweet soul, she chooses to write under a pseudonym of the masculine persuasion." Collection of Novellas The Washington Post in a March 1986 review called the author one of the finest writers of short fiction in the 1970's. Mrs. Sheldon's most recent work was "Starry Rift," a collection of three novellas, published in 1986. The New York Times called it a "latter-day space opera, replete with daring interstellar action, life-saving (and life-threatening) technology and a general air of wide-eyed wonder at the vast playground we call the universe." Other recent books include "Up the Walls of the World," published in 1978, her first book after two decades of writing short stories, and "Brightness Falls From the Air," published in 1985. Mrs. Sheldon served in the Army Air Corps in World War II and later worked in photo intelligence for the Central Intelligence Agency, her agent said. [I understand her husband also had worked for the CIA.] She started writing science fiction as a way to relax after working on her doctoral dissertation. She taught experimental psychology and statistics at American University and at George Washington University, both in Washington, D.C., from 1955 to 1968. She was the daughter of Mary Bradley, a World War II correspondent who reported on German death camps and sold more than 35 books in her lifetime as a travel writer, said Ms. Kidd. ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 17:19:29 GMT From: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: Wild Cards, Zelazny From: BARBER%PORTLAND.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Wayne Barber) > There has been a lot of criticism of Zelazny's writing in the Wild > Cards series, but no one has mentioned one aspect that bothered me > quite a bit. It took me a long time to put my finger on it, but it > finally hit me while reading Aces High: Zelazny copped out in > creating his character. He seems to have deliberately created > Croyd in such a way that he doesn't have to write for the same > character each time. Maybe he didn't want to get trapped into > creating a character that he would grow tired of. Croyd strikes me as an interesting character if developed right. The fact that his powers change doesn't need to make him a different character. In fact, it shouldn't. True, his abilities have changed, but this doesn't mean that he as a person has changed. (Now if he were to become schizophenic and start manifesting a new personality with every change, that would get weird in a hurry. It would be interesting though...) What this ought to mean is that he has to change overall as a person to cope with this. This ought to reflect more into his life-style and thinking than shows in the stories to date. Sure, in the first one he has some problems with it, but the simple physical precautions he sets up to cope ought to be just the beginning. Living with a problem like this ought to have long-term psychological consequences of some kind that just don't seem to be developing. He seems to have completely ignored this in the second story in favor of the grotesque. There just isn't really any other way of describing the antics surrounding retrieving that body. I personally found the 2nd story a distinct letdown, coming from Zelazny. Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 87 00:47 EST From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: ZELAZNY - JACK OF SHADOWS Zelazny has indeed written one other Shadowjack story - it was published in -The Illustrated Roger Zelazny- and titled (unoriginally....) "Shadowjack". I don't know if this is still in print; it was originally released in both hard and soft cover, oversized, I believe. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1987 21:59 PDT From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Zelazny's _Jack_of_Shadows_ There is another story published in _The Illustrated Zelazny_. It is called "Shadowjack". My copy is an ACE (NY NY) paperback 1979. It refers to a large format version in 1978 that I have not seen but I believe in the same series as illustrated books by Delaney and Moorcock. The book also contains 4 other early stories. I would recommend this book to anyone who can accept non-comic book illustrations. There is also an "Amber Tapestry" which looks as if it would be better in the larger format. The bits and pieces - including the original set of trumps is (I think) faithful to the first set of books. what do other people think? Dick Botting Cal State San Bernardino PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 20:18:34 GMT From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Cyberpunk and some of its roots >From: ee4shb@ux63.bath.ac.uk (Bisson) >Recent postings on rec.arts.sf-lovers have been asking "What is >Cyberpunk?" > >I consider Cyberpunk to be nothing new, authors such as William >Gibson, Bruce Sterling and Walter Jon Williams are only writing >what Alfred Bester, Samuel Delany et al have been writing for >years! Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising cyberpunk - I'm one >of its biggest fans... _The Mona Lisa Overdrive_ on order (only a >month to go!), _Hard Wired_ read before it even got out in the US >(British import shops are dead good!) I've got "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones" fresh in my mind, so I feel obligated to respond to your statements. While it is true that this story is very much like cyberpunk (and you are hardly the first person to notice this; Brian Aldiss mentions it in a footnote in _Trillion Year Spree_), "Time..." is not a cyberpunk story. Cyberpunk arises from two main thrusts: rebellion ("punk") and body- enhancement ("cyber"). One of the main thrusts/goals/drives/effects of the cyberpunk movement is to shock the Campbellians out of their long-held but obviously artificial convention that people of 100 years hence are going to be just like us--if not in belief and mores, then at least physically. But this is becoming more and more obviously not true; with our ever-growing understanding of exactly what makes the human machine operate, bodily improvements are not only inevitable, but are likely to be commonplace. "Time...". for all of its rebellion and artistry and isolation, for all of its attempts to render a society that obviously arose from our own yet is very shockingly different, for all that it dances on the cutting edge of life, does not address the question of cybernetics. Bester does, in a few ways, but his approach to the stories is veryt different from the current cyberpunk vogue; he is more "literary", more concerned with those old verities of the heart like "love and honor and courage and pity" than a typical cyberpunk. (Please forgive my strong anti-punk bias here; to rephrase this last sentence in a less insulting way, I just don't think Bester "feels" like cyberpunk. Obviously, Mr. Bisson does.) >But what is Cyberpunk? ..... obviously, MIRRORSHADES! :-) > >By the way has anyone seen that Cyberpunk ideas are appearing in >maistream SF? I've seen bits in _Sun's End_ and _Lifeburst_! (_The >Cool War_ is a bit early for that, but...) Cyberpunk is the new mainstream. _Mirrorshades_ was the best selling original SF anthology of 1986 (in hardback anyway; _Wild Cards_ probably did better in sheer numbers). Gibson is one of the most popular writers around (our store couldn't keep _Count Zero_ in stock, and we keep re- ordering _Neuromancer_...). Sterling and Shirley are being re-issued. Overall, it's a growing movement, and I'm very afraid that the humanists are going to be lost in a sea of "hard-hitting, action-packed cyberpunk adventure" and fantasy megologies. Kevin J. Maroney ...!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 26 May 87 0816-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #251 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 26 May 87 0816-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #251 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 26 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 251 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Brust & Cherryh & Cook & Dalmas & Friedman (2 msgs) & Jones (3 msgs) & Rand ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 May 87 19:30:50 GMT From: moss!hropus!prc@RUTGERS.EDU (pete clark) Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots To the person reading Asimov robot novels.. The biggest shame is that you, like me, didn't have the opprotunity to read them all in their proper order. Try to get to the pre-foundation trilogy before you read the last book in what is probably the longest sci.fi. story ever written. For anyone interested in undertaking my aforementioned reading assignment the sequence goes: I,Robot The Caves of Steel The Naked Sun The Robots of Dawn Robots and Empire A Pebble in the Sky The Currents of Space The Stars Like Dust Foundation Foundation and Empire Second Foundation Foundation's Edge would you believe the name of the last book has leaked out of my head..sorry Pete Clark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 87 20:52:02 EDT From: brothers@sabbath.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) Subject: brust (new book) I just read "The Sun, The Moon, And The Stars", and liked it a lot. If Brust considers it "experimental" (didn't seem very strange or avant garde to me), I consider the experiment to be a success. Despite being put out by Ace as an "adult fairy tale" the book really contains no overt fantasy or science fiction elements. But don't let that dissuade you.... In case Brust is reading this -- he asks the reader a question every chapter, and I somehow feel obliged to answer: Tiles. Brust uses one particular narrative technique fairly frequently througout the works I've read, sometimes it works, and sometimes it fails. This is to have the narrator address the reader more or less directly in an aside. So far (thankfully), there have been no conceits like pretending the narrator is writing his memoirs or actually talking to someone (I dislike that), but think this kind of thing often detracts from the storytelling, rupturing the suspension of disbelief that the description and dialogue together produce. Sometimes (like the onion metaphor bit in Jhereg or was it Yendi) this works really well, possibly because it comes at the beginning and ending of the book, chapter, or whatever, where there is a natural break, but when I get the feeling someone is actually saying something to me in the middle of some action I am rather put off. I am a little ambivalent about the "Bones?" bit in TSTMATS, because it does fit with the story in sort of "meta" way, but that's my reaction, anyhow. Anyhow, go out an buy the book. Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 87 04:18:37 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Morgaine Stories *mild spoilers* From: "Richard_W_Rodway.SBDERX"@Xerox.COM >Some questions about Morgaine... > I have just read what I could find of this series (_Gate of >Ivrel_, _Well of Shiuan_ and _Fires of Azeroth_) and I have a >couple of questions that someone out there may be able to answer. > First: Are there any more Morgaine Stories?. These are the only >ones I can find at present. Carolyn is working on /possibly almost finished or even FINISHED (gasp!) the fourth novel. I have heard that it is to be more from Morgaine's point of view than Vanye's this time (something about Vanye's story's been told...), but I've also heard the opposite. Carolyn has hinted that their relationship will undergo some changes, but she won't say in what way, so she could have been referring to just about anything... No other news so far; hopefully we'll see something soon. (She's guest at AD ASTRA in three weeks, so I may have more news then.) >Second: Does anyone know exactly how Morgaine seals the gates that >she passes. She doesn't do it by carrying Changeling unsheathed >into them (as far as I understand, this works, but has the >unpleasant side effect of also destroying the Sword and the bearer >:-)). In _Fires of Azeroth_ there is the suggestion that the gate >is closed from a primary control center, but does this destroy, or >merely deactivate them, and if the gate is just deactivated, what >stops someone reactivating it. Just one functioning gate is enough >to put civilisation in danger apparently. Anyone know?? Richard >Rodway I don't... (Let me know if you hear something that isn't posted to the net, okay?)... I assumed that the fiddly stuff Morgaine did at the `primary control center' involved setting a self-destruct for sometime after her departure (perhaps the action of using the gate one more time set it off...). Then again... if there's noone onworld who has the knowledge she carries about the Gates and their original uses, the Gate onle needs deactivating; no one else'll be able to get to it to reactivate it, right? :^) Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 87 16:15:17 GMT From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Wizard War This is a book originally published in England under the title "The Wizards and the Warriors". The original title is a little more apt, since most of the time the plot concerns relations between (oddly enough) wizards and warriors. On the other hand, the new title isn't totally inapt, since the basic hook of the story is a conflict between members of the Confederation of Wizards. But the nice thing about this book is that it isn't just a simple little quest story, with a big confrontation at the end where the Good Guys triumph. No, there are multitudenous plot twists, and the original quest becomes somewhat moot halfway or so through, and the end sort of trails off a little. You know.... like real life does. And it is largely the homey real-life quality and the interesting characters that make this book worthwhile. I rather liked it. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 87 03:35:44 GMT From: motown!sys1!killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green) Subject: Review: _The Regiment_ Review: _The Regiment_ by John Dalmas This book starts with a cover blurb by someone who obviously opened the book at random, and reached the wrong conclusion. The book's plot includes a revolution on a planet nick-named "Kettle", which is the only source of a substance believed to be necessary for the survival of the Confederation, while the blurb says Kettle only has soldiers as its sole resource. No big deal. In the book business, everybody knows that a frontal lobotomy is necessary to become a cover blurb writer. In fact, I wouldn't even mention the cover blurb, except that the insides of this story are almost as mangled as the outside is. This book throws together several old plot elements: mysticism and war (a' la' _Dune_), mass conditioning of the population, a conspiracy to end the conspiracy, and so forth. The problem is that it does not work. The mysticism seems more Yuppyish than mystical. The conspiracy doesn't seem so conspiratorial when you find out that just about every top government official, including the Emperor, is a member of it. In fact, about the only part of the book that DOES work, is the war part. It does have some good ole' fashioned sock'em action. Although some parts are soooo predictable... 100 pages before it happened, I predicted that the protagonist was going to go back to the planet Kettle, be captured, and "discover their secret" (gee, how's that for standard plot elements? James Bond lives!). Most of the characters are constructed of cardboard. Our protagonist, for example, seems to believe in nothing, has no outstanding qualities besides a "sinewy body", and at the end of the book, goes through a surprisingly easy de-conditioning and conversion to "The Conspiracy" and un-mystical mysticism, by some slick-talking aristocrat who reminded me of none other than P.T. Barnun... Despite the flaws, it is, generally, good "escapist" type fiction in the tradition of the late E.E. "Doc" Smith, so I give it two stars -- readable, but below average. Eric Green CS student University of SW Louisiana Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 elg%usl.CSNET {cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 87 03:39:00 GMT From: motown!sys1!killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green) Subject: Review: _In Conquest Born (*SPOILER?*) Review: _In Conquest Born_, by C.S. Friedman: The first thing you notice is that this book has two different front covers: One with a white-and-blue clad female, and one with a black-clad male holding a sword. Which leads you to the next picture: That of two societies, in perpetual conflict, occupying moral extremes, built by two different types of conquest: one, by the conquest of their fellow tribesmen via ruthlessness, duplicity, power, and beauty, and the other, by escape from oppressors and the conquest of a hostile planet by changing themselves to fit the planet, instead of changing the planet to fit themselves. This is a large book, and sometimes, plot elements seem to get lost in the wind, or perhaps just forgotten from the memory of weary readers :-). But that really is nothing. The thing that drives this book is NOT the plot, but rather, the characters. There are two main protagonists, whose character is finely sketched in the first few pages of the book, not by the usual bludgeon of your universal-narrator speechifying, but rather, by bringing in scenes from their life that helped shape them into the people that they are. There is also a large cast of secondary characters, who are no less finely drawn as the book passes, although not in such detail. It makes the "suspension of disbelief" very easy, to see these characters acting, in general, in a manner fitting their unique personality. _In Conquest Born_ is not perfect. Both plot and characterization sometimes have flaws, although there are no gaping holes. It is not a five-star rating of "a classic". But still, it is a Very Good Book, especially from writer who apparently has little experience, and you could do worse. In fact, after finishing the book, I almost immediately started re-reading it. The only other two books I've done THAT to are _Dune_, and _Ender's Game_.... which puts it pretty high on the chart. I only hope that the sequel isn't as sappy as _Speaker to the Dead_, because I'd much like to read further works by this author. Rating: Four stars: ****+ Very Good, Much Above Average. Eric Green CS student University of SW Louisiana Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 elg%usl.CSNET {cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 87 04:42:04 GMT From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) Subject: Re: Review: _In Conquest Born_ (no real spoilers) elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes: >Review: _In Conquest Born_, by C.S. Friedman: > The first thing you notice is that this book has two different >front covers: One with a white-and-blue clad female, and one with a >black-clad male Actually, if you look at the back cover of the book you'll see that they're both the same picture, just one is printed backwards. Without responding to Eric's review point by point, I'll just add my own few observations. First, I thought that for a book in which most of the plot had to do with characters, the characterization was a bit flimsy. Not that I didn't have a good feeling for the main characters by the end, but I didn't feel as though I knew any of them inside, and that was what I would have liked. One advantage that I see in this book is that it is written in episodes. Sometimes C.S. Friedman sidetracks for what seems an entirely irrelevant episode, and sometimes falls back on the tennis court style of showing little bits of each side in succession. In any case, some of these I'm certain could almost stand on their own as short stories. Without going into detail, there were several episodes in the book that were just outstanding. However, there were also those that bordered on the utterly dumb. In any case, there's enough good stuff in there if you read the book, and while it may not be of the caliber of Dune, it might be just a bit more readable on a sunny day when you have nothing to do in the afternoon. > Rating: Four stars: ****+ > Very Good, Much Above Average. Well, I'll give it three stars [out of five, right?], but it has its five star and its one star moments. ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 87 16:34:11 GMT From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Archer's Goon This is a book by an author I'm not familiar with, Diana Wynne Jones. What initially attracted me to it was the cover art, a large Goon in a kitchen chair eating a slice of cake with a switchblade, and sipping a cup of tea with his pinkie extended. He is the titular character. For once, the cover is pretty appropriate, and even the short cover blurb captures the spirit of the story: He was Large, Ugly, and not leaving their kitchen. He was a wizard's enforcer. He was... Archer's Goon. The story is (for the most part) told from the viewpont of a thirteen year old boy, and its tone is really that of a juvenile. In fact, I think it'd be a good story for the young adolescent. But it has plenty of humor and an engaging mystery plot, and is thus interesting to the adult as well. I liked it quite a lot, and I'm glad, for once, to have given in to the attractive packaging. Can anyone comment on her other book, "Fire and Hemlock"? Worthwhile? Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 87 19:17:46 GMT From: srt@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Archer's Goon throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: >This ("Archer's Goon") is a book by an author I'm not familiar >with, Diana Wynne Jones... > >Can anyone comment on her other book, "Fire and Hemlock"? >Worthwhile? She's also the author of "Charmed Life", which (if I recall correctly) is also told from a juvenile point of view. Other than that I don't recall much about the book; I found it average. Scott R. Turner UCLA Computer Science Domain: srt@ucla.cs.edu UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 87 02:17:51 GMT From: umnd-cs!umn-cs!starfire!brust@RUTGERS.EDU (Steven K. Zoltan From: Brust) Subject: Re: Archer's Goon Everything by Diana Wynn Jones is worth reading. FIRE AND HEMLOCK may be her best. I also loved...well, everything of hers I've read. skzb ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 87 08:46:36 GMT From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Limitations of the human mind KFL@AI writes: >There is no evidence that the human mind has any fundamental blind >spots. Oh? Then where do Rand's followers come from? Cheap shot joking aside, consider the question of the consistency of measurable cardinals. I see no reason why apriori an alien species that sees them as trivially clearly as we see omega cannot exist. Similarly, it would not surprise me were there aliens who considered the Axiom of Determinacy to be intuitively obvious, and wondering just how we could ever come up with that ultrabaroque Axiom of Choice. Has Rand figured these out already? Am I missing something trivial? Sigh. The only science fiction writer to date who might even broach the above questions is Rudy Rucker, and I found his fiction soporific. Matthew P Wiener Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 26 May 87 0828-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #252 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 26 May 87 0828-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #252 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 26 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 252 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 May 87 05:42:33 GMT From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!bph_cwjb@RUTGERS.EDU (William J. From: Bogstad) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL barry@borealis.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes: > [much deleted] >My own guess is that we see RAH's attitudes undergoing evolution in >this book. His later novels often do address this issue directly, >and leave no doubt that RAH's not in the gay-bashing business. > [much deleted] An example... From a recent RAH book (C) 1985 "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls", "Galahad was careful; the kitten was not disturbed. It is possible that Galahad kisses as well as Minerva does. Not better. But just as well. Once I decided to enjoy the inevitable I did enjoy it. Tertius is not Iowa, Boondock is not Grinnell; there was no longer any reason to be manacled by the customs of a long-dead tribe." These are some of the thoughts of the main character Richard Ames as he wakes up to find himself in bed with first a woman and a man who both wish to kiss him. From the book it is obvious that this isn't something that this character usually does, but he is willing to make a go at it. I suppose it should be noted that it doesn't progress any farther then just a kiss. (It also should be noted that it isn't one of RAH's best books.) Bill Bogstad bogstad@hopkins-eecs-bravo.arpa jhunix!green!bill (301)338-8019 ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 87 10:52:51 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: heinlein homophobia gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) writes: > If I recall correctly, (it's been a while) Heinlein's > "asexual/ambisexual" ideas (like the ones we see in _Time_Enough_ > and already discussed to death here) come to dominate once Mike's > religion is founded. In the inner sanctum love is abundant and on > the whole gender free. Actually, it's difficult to read "I Will Fear No Evil" and decide that Heinlein is anything like homophobic. This is not to say he is entirely comfortable with the idea or all that graceful in describing homosexual or any sexual relations, but then how many of us readers are anyway? Heinlein manages to transcend his his own upbringing, but he still but human... George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 87 22:05:59 GMT From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim "Jack" Frost) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? rjd@nancy.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes: >dlleigh@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Darren L. Leigh) writes: >>mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes: >He [Heinlein] wrote it, didn't he? Seems like a fairly decent >representation of the man's writing is to read something he >wrote... A single example of anything is a poor scale to rate something on. For example, if the first heart transplant failed, who's to say subsequent ones wouldn't save lives? The same applies. Authors can get better (or worse) with time, so a single example is poor way to judge. >> _Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_ is probably the least >>characteristic of all of Heinlein's works. It doesn't follow the >>usual patterns and ideas of his books at all. > >So it's experimental on his behalf... I don't think either of these comments is correct. In all of the RAH books that I have read, Heinlein seemed to be pointing at things in our society and discussing them. [Actually, I don't think that _The_Number_of_the_Beast_ was like this, but that book was ridiculous in my opinion.] He may or may not agree with what he sees, but he points out that there are other viewpoints. For examples, take SIASL, _Starship Troopers_, and _Friday_. I could use more examples, but these are good enough. SIASL talked about many of the mores in our society. Heinlein ripped most of them apart. He showed us just how silly most of them were _FROM_THE_POINT_OF_VIEW_OF_A_THIRD_PARTY_. They may seem to make sense to us, but would someone from a totally different social background find them so? Probably not, as Mike seems to show. ST seemed to talk about war and our feelings about war. It's been awhile since I've read this, so I'm fuzzy, but it seemed to me that he constructed a completely different society -- one that rotated around the military. It's not a new concept, it has existed in cultures before. He just showed us a more modern example. Another viewpoint. _Friday_, my favorite of his works (for many reasons), talked about inclusion and exclusion from society. How often did Friday jump back to exclusion of APs from society? About every other paragraph, it seemed to me. He was showing us a vital aspect of society -- we oppress creatures for reasons that may not make any sense. An AP was supposed to be indistinguishable from a human being. But they were always looked down upon. Why? Heinlein doesn't say, and I couldn't tell you either. But why did/do we treat other human "races" as inferior? Certainly not because of intelligence. Certainly not from a biological standpoint. Certainly not because of physical ability. Hmm -- why might we do it? Heinlein merely points out that the problem exists, and gives a modern perspective of it. He also attacks some of the same mores as he did when he wrote SIASL, again through a figure that does not understand the way our society is put together. Another view on society. >>Heinlein didn't get to be the dean of science fiction for nothing. >>He's good. > >I think you got those sentences mixed up, it should read: > "Heinlein didn't get science fiction. He's good for nothing." No, he's good at doing what he wants to do. I like the way he writes. He's not my favorite author, but he does a good job of getting his point across in novel ways. In addition, SIASL is a fantastic work in its allusions to the Bible. The first time I read it, I missed that. The second, I caught it and was amazed at how well he had done it. It's a great literary work, although it's not really what I would call "science fiction", and perhaps this is why so many dislike it. >OK...OK...so I'm being a little harsh, but I object to two things: > (a) claiming you can't judge an author on one work > (b) Heinlein. I agree with (a), and (b) is a personal opinion to which you are entitled, but don't go discouraging people from reading his works. Maybe someone will look beyond the story line and see something else. I did. I enjoy [most of] his books for that. While I won't say "you *have* to read Heinlein", I also won't discourage reading it. >Heinlein's writings have always been (to me) sexist and fascist... Just remember, this is your opinion. Others may not see it the same way. If you aren't sure, just read a few of his books and decide for yourself. BTW, I sometimes wonder if authors really meant what we pick out of their books. For instance, I have said "Heinlein talks about...", but did he really? I'd give a lot to ask him! Jim Frost UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd ARPA: madd@bucsb.bu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue 19 May 87 16:24:01-PDT From: D-ROGERS@edwards-2060.arpa Subject: Heinlein SIASL = "Stranger in a Strange Land" From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu >Heinlein's works have often seemed a bit dubious of homosexuality >to me. My impression is generally that H. seems uncomfortable with >the natural implications of the theories he likes to espouse (if >friendly sex is great, gay sex is going to get in there too). Of >course, Heinlein's own feelings are not relevant; it's what's in >his books that matters, and that's what I'm trying to stick to >addressing. If my memory serves me correctly, there are quotes from the Notebooks of Lazarus Long, [_TIME_ENOUGH_FOR_LOVE_] which address this issue. Things such as "Any society not based on women and children first..." >It's worth remembering that this is Jill speaking, not the >narrator. Jill can be a homophobe without the narrator being one, >and the narrator can be one without the author being one. PARDON ME? Is everyone who prefers heterosexual relationships necessarily a homophobe? I've heard of the if-you-aren't-with-me- you-are-against-me theory, but come now! And i won't even talk about recent developments which provide very good reasons for exclusive monogamy - FRIENDLY SEX, INDEED! From: k@eddie.mit.edu (Kathy Wienhold) >And the line about "very female women"?!!! Gag! What other kinds >are there? Heinlein makes me want to puke. It seems certain that RAH here fell to the same confusion which pervades most of the rest of our society - that the terms male and masculine (as well as female and feminine) are equivalent and interchangable. Male and female describe anatomic attributes. Feminine and masculine describe attributes that are mainly derived from the social environment or at least assigned to those attributes as part of the social structure. While a "very female woman" would about have to mean she had an XXX chromosome arrangement, a very feminine woman has a different meaning in the US than in Tonga, both of which differ from the meaning in 5th Century B.C. China. dale ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 87 13:00:01 GMT From: seismo!garfield!jeff1@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Heinlein, Women & "Glory Road" My problem with this book is that it was yet another one where the woman wasn't truly happy until she got pregnant. It seems to me that Heinlein's strong women characters really only want to have a baby. Let's see: Empress of 20 universes wants to settle down with Sam and have a baby. (Actually, the baby's more important than him.) How about Friday? Tough secret agent type but unfulfilled until she settled down with her (sort of) baby. Probably every female character in Stranger in a Strange Land. A man's (name forgotten) brain goes into a woman's body, and immediately he/she wants to have a baby. There are probably more examples but I can't think of any offhand. The last example brings something else up. Heinlein's books have female homosexuality, but not male. I guess it's supposed to make the women seem more "warm and loving", which seems to be the main role for most of the women. Most male SF writers seem to have cardboard or non-existent female characters, but I don't like Heinlein's attempts much either. Jeff Sparkes {utai,seismo,ihnp4}!garfield!jeff1 jeff@garfield.mun.cdn via ubc.csnet ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 87 21:05:46 GMT From: seismo!mnetor!alberta!sask!zaphod!wolfl@RUTGERS.EDU (Wolf From: Lunscher) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes: > I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger > in a Strange Land". I hated it. I hated it so thoroughly that I > will extend that feeling to the author, and state "I hate > Heinlein". I will never again read anything he has written. > >I do not wish to detail my opinion of SIASL, because I probably >couldn't do it justice. Can someone more literate than myself >explain, in one thousand words or less, why SIASL is such a >supremely offensive tale? I wish I could understand what your problem is. About ten years ago at a Vancouver S.F. con. a fan speaker voiced similar dislike for "Stranger" calling it flatly "a bad book" without ever explaining why, as though it was obvious. I think much of the audience was, like myself, stunned into silence. As for myself, "Stranger" is one of my favorites of all S.F. largely because of the philosophy of sexual tolerance it advocates. A tolerance I've always found lacking in our North American culture, making those of us more liberal in our values often feel like stangers in a strange land (though the existance of the people behind rec.nude gives me some hope). Of course there are also other aspects to the book. I usually judge a book by its concepts. In this case one of the key concepts was the cultural impact of heterosexuality as opposed to the asexuality of the Martians (so to speak, they were female first and later male when mature, a strategy used by some fish). In this case the consequences were that sex meant little to the Martians, but served as an important channel of communications and bonding among humans, if they showed the tolerance to use it. One concept that many probably took issue with is that life is not really that precious. Note that Mike never took life until he matured, and then found killing easy when necessary. I'm sure many believe that maturity should work the other way around, making killing more difficult. Some have even suggested that Charles Manson modeled his ideas after this book, but I refuse to judge an author by his effect on a warped mind. My feelings have come to align themselves with Heinlein here. Life shouldn't be taken needlessly; but all things must pass and in a billion years the universe will still be young but we will be forgotten. Besides, I have a suspicion, alluded to by many authors including Heinlein, that there is really only one life, one mind, peering out of all these billions of eyes. Just a suspicion. So if you're puritan, pacifist, or pro-life, I can see that you may have some problem with this book. Wolf ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 87 03:14:52 GMT From: motown!sys1!killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? rjd@nancy (Rob DeMillo) says: > Heinlein's writings have always been (to me) sexist and fascist... Heinlein and sexism: True, many of Heinleins novels have been pretty sexist. Not intentionally, I don't believe, because at times he makes some pretty tough efforts to overcome his societal conditioning (e.g. the female characters in _Time Enough for Love_, the group sex in _Stranger in a Strange Land_). But to quote someone else, "the poor man tries, but he just doesn't have a hint." _Friday_? Sexist? What kind of drugs are you on? This is the ONLY Heinlein novel with a female protagonist who's semi-female and not just some sex object for all the men to use as a lust-pillow. Of course, the fact that she can break the arms off of "normal" people takes away from that, a bit, but she isn't just the usual "man in woman's dress" sort of gal that you'd expect from Heinlein. As for Hilda in _The Number of the Beast_, she always did seem to me to be more a stereotype of "what if you took your average housewife and force-fed her with encyclopedias"... Heinlein and fascism: _Starship Troopers_ had a strong central government composed of veterans. _Stranger in a Strange Land_ had a government similiar to ours (and really was reminiscent of Watergate, huh, considering that it was written 10 years earlier?). _TMIAHM_ had the lunar "anarchy". _Time Enough for Love_ similiarly had an anarchic government for the planet Lazarus & friends eventually ended up on,to *GET AWAY FROM A STRONG CENTRAL GOVERNMENT*. A strong, fascist central government is generally treated as a Bad Thing in novels like _Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, _Time Enough for Love_, _Stranger in a Strange Land_, _Friday_ (remember, the way she ended up where she did because a fascist dictator of a planet had emplanted her with his offspring and hired agents to bring her there and kill her), and in other of his books. So nice try on the fascism charge, but Heinlein's books are often (almost always, in fact) against strong central government. Difficult to be fascist when you disagree with the concept of a central government. You probably hit Heinlein on the broadside with the sexism charge. He makes many valiant attempts, starting with _Stranger in a Strange Land_ and further, but I think the words of another poster are most fitting... "the poor man just didn't have a clue". Eric Green CS student University of SW Louisiana Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 {cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg elg%usl.CSNET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 26 May 87 0858-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #253 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 26 May 87 0858-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #253 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 26 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 253 Today's Topics: Books - E.E. "Doc" Smith (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 May 87 09:31:12 EDT From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: Doc Smith You have to think of the Lensman and Skylark books like 50's rock and roll. It can never happen again (except as parody), it wasn't stylistically sophisticated, but my, wasn't the energy there and didn't it move? People also seem to have forgotten that Doc Smith wrote up into the mid 1960's. It seems to me that women played a more important role in his later stories. I remember them as Heinleinesque in the subspace books (_Subspace Explorers_ and the posthumous book whose name I forget released just a year or two ago). Also, I think the woman in the initial Family D'almbert (sp?) story was an equal partner. (I thought this story one of Doc's best; I didn't much like what Stephin Goldin did with his followups though). Is the original _Skylark of Space_ available anywhere? The Pyramid edition I have was "specially revised by the author". I have seen sections of the original that were substantially different. Ted Nolan ted@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 18:45:21 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Lost E. E. 'Doc' Smith work From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >As for the unnamed, outlined Lensmen book, E.E. Smith evidently >left a nearly complete manuscript which was considered to be far >too controversial (read "obscene") for its time. Although no one >but Smith's executor has evidently seen the manuscript, Robert >Heinlein speculated that the controversial part was that the >Kinnison children, unable to find equally gifted and powerful >mates, marry each other. Incest is best, eh? Good lord. (Or maybe 'Gracious me!' :-) ). Can you give a source for this info? As a rumor it's fascinating, but as a substantiated rumor it would be even more so... Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 21:55:14 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series About Clio Costigan nee Marsden: It should be noted that (1) it is hinted at the end of FIRST LENSMAN that she wasn't included because the book was getting too long (remember, FIRST LENSMAN wasn't serialized), and (2) she had a very active (and fairly strong, for the time) part in TRIPLANETARY on Nevia. I have to admit, it's about time that people discussed this series on the almighty Net! :-) Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, OH 44060 +01 216 255 1080 {decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 87 11:13:08 GMT From: seismo!gould!novavax!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry@RUTGERS.EDU (Lawrence From: F. Strickland) Subject: Re: The Lensman Series sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: > daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: >>Doc Smith said that the real meat of the story was in _The >>Children of the Lens_ (the last book)--that the others were more >>or less prologue. > CHILDREN OF THE LENS is not the last book in the series; the last > book is called MASTERS OF THE VORTEX. I last read it many years > ago, but I ... If memory serves me, MASTERS OF THE VORTEX takes > place considerably after the rest of the series, and deals with > very different sorts of issues. Internal evidence in _Masters of the Vortex_ (characters such as Kim Kinnison appearing in the story; place settings; general technology) suggests that _Masters_ occurs somewhere after _Second Stage Lensman_ but before or possibly during _Children of the Lens_ Indeed, the story lines are much different. _Masters_ deals with the lens only as a secondary plot device, somewhat like a piece of technology that exists, so it must be used. The actual plot: ****** SPOILER ****** The actual plot revolves around the removal of 'atomic vortices' (not well defined in the book) and a race of creatures (whose name I forget) that use the vortices as 'breeding tanks'. Secondarily, it revolves around inherent power of mind. The implication here is that inherent power of mind can be SUPERIOR to the artificial power of mind produced by Arisians and a lens. That's one of the reasons I always wondered if 'Doc' Smith really wrote the book or if it was 'edited' by someone. Lawrence F. Strickland St. Petersburg Junior College P.O. Box 13489 St. Petersburg, FL 33733 akgua!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry Phone: +1 813 341 4705 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 87 23:07:43 EDT From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Lensmen As for the unnamed, outlined Lensmen book, E.E. Smith evidently left a nearly complete manuscript which was considered to be far too controversial (read "obscene") for its time. Although no one but Smith's s executor has evidently seen the manuscript, Robert Heinlein speculated that the controversial part was that the Kinnison children, unable to find equally gifted and powerful mates, marry each other. Incest is best, eh? Lisa Evans Malden, MA ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 87 16:23:15 GMT From: rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran) Subject: Re: Lost E. E. 'Doc' Smith work From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >As for the unnamed, outlined Lensmen book, E.E. Smith evidently >left a nearly complete manuscript which was considered to be far >too controversial (read "obscene") for its time. Although no one >but Smith's executor has evidently seen the manuscript, Robert >Heinlein speculated that the controversial part was that the >Kinnison children, unable to find equally gifted and powerful >mates, marry each other. Incest is best, eh? In CotL, there is a hint of the possibility. There is a dance scene where one of the girls, I forget which (it's been quite a while since I last read it), is bemoaning the lack of attractive males, then decides to dance with big brother Kit, who she finds VERY manly, etc.... There is (was?) also a small-press reference book, 'The Worlds of Doc Smith', a concordance of the Lensmen & Skylark series, where I recall seeing mentioned under 'Children of the Lens' something along the lines of 'It is assumed that Kit mated with his sisters', etc. Bob Halloran UUCP: rutgers!mtune!rkh Internet: rkh@mtune.ATT.COM USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857 ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 87 02:42:12 GMT From: seismo!sun!texsun!uokmax!rmtodd@RUTGERS.EDU (Richard Michael From: Todd) Subject: "Dragon Lensman" and other non-Doc Smith Lensman books john13@garfield.UUCP writes: >"The Dragon Lensman" is the only Lens book I have ever read. I >thought it was all the things and more that people have been >complaining about. You can't just say it's old, or pulp fiction, or >whatever: I read a shelf-full of 30+ yrs old SF from the library >when I was a kid, and none of it was as bad as that! "He noticed >that the scientist wore mismatched socks, and immediately deduced >that the universe was in danger. Alien beings attacked them >suddenly, and were beaten. The universe was saved!" etc. It should be noted that "The Dragon Lensman" is NOT by Doc Smith, author of the original Lensman series. It's by David Kyle. It's not 30+ year old pulp fiction--it's 1980 vintage. Kyle's sequel, "Lensman from Rigel", was even more incomprehensible. I'm still not sure what all those black holes and Ordovik crystals had to do with anything. I'm not sure what universe Kyle is writing about, but it isn't the one Doc Smith wrote about. It just looks like the same one to the casual observer. Incidentally, Kyle isn't the only person to write (or attempt to write) stories in the Lensman universe. William Ellern wrote a couple of stories, "New Lensman" and "Triplanetary Agent", set in the Lensman universe at around the time of First Lensman. They were interesting stories and they fit well within the universe set up by Smith--they didn't introduce bizarre new elements that had never been seen in the Lensman universe before. Alas, these stories didn't get widely distributed -- the only place I've seen them is serialized in the back of old Perry Rhodan issues. (Forry Ackerman stuck all kinds of interesting stuff back there!). Does anyone know if the stories were ever published elsewhere or if Ellern's proposed sequel "Legion of the Gray Lensmen" ever saw print? Richard Todd USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069 UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 03:03:00 GMT From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU From: (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: "Dragon Lensman" and other non-Doc Smith Lensman books rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes: > Incidentally, Kyle isn't the only person to write (or attempt to >write) stories in the Lensman universe. William Ellern wrote a >couple of stories, "New Lensman" and "Triplanetary Agent", set in >the Lensman universe at around the time of First Lensman. They >were interesting stories and they fit well within the universe set >up by Smith--they didn't introduce bizarre new elements that had >never been seen in the Lensman universe before. Alas, these >stories didn't get widely distributed -- the only place I've seen >them is serialized in the back of old Perry Rhodan issues. (Forry >Ackerman stuck all kinds of interesting stuff back there!). Does >anyone know if the stories were ever published elsewhere or if >Ellern's proposed sequel "Legion of the Gray Lensmen" ever saw >print? Well, there was a story titled Moon Prospector which appeared as the _cover story_ in the April 1966 issue of Analog. By the way, the "intro" to the story includes a reproduction of a note from Doc Smith authorizing Ellern to set stories in the Lensman universe!!!! In my opinion the Smith estate did hiis memory a grave disservice by allowing the David Kyle atrocities! Like his characters, Doc Smith used "precionist grade English". Contrast this with Kyle's writing. The intro to his second book has such barabarism as "the forces of evilness" (bleeccchhh!). Doc obviously believed in Abosolute Good and Absolute Evil. To even write such lines as Kyle did shows a fundamental lack of understanding of Doc's universe. Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 1987 16:20:12-EDT From: wyzansky@NADC Subject: E.E. "Doc" Smith From: seismo!gould!novavax!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry@RUTGERS.EDU > In addition to the standard series: Triplanetary, First Lensman, > Grey Lensman, and Second Stage Lensman, there were two other books > published. One was _Master of the Vortex_ (a sort of side-story) > and the other was _Children of the Lens_. These were published (I > think) after 'Doc' Smiths death, and I've always wondered just how > much of them he wrote. _Children of the Lens_ is close, but > _Master of the Vortex_ doesn't really 'feel' like his writing. > Does anyone know?? When I first read the other Lensman universe book, _Master of the Vortex_, I also had doubts that it was written by Doc Smith. The language matches, but this was supposed to be in roughly the _Second Stage Lensman_ time frame and I kept thinking that if this clown is a Six, the highest ever measured, then would Kimball Kinnison and the other Second Stage Lensmen be Thirties or Fifties? _Children of the Lens_, on the other hand, has more of the feel of of the series and does continue the story and fit in in a logical way. The differences are mainly due, I suspect, to the fact that the earlier books were written as serials while _Children_ was written to be published as a novel. In general, the Lensman series was good, shoot-them-up Space Opera. Doc Smith's (unofficial) title was "King of the Planet Busters". In each of his series (or single books), the weapons and abilities got bigger and bigger. But, he wasn't unique in that era. Read some of John Campbell's stories from the period before he took over Astounding. He was writing in a very similar vein to Doc Smith. Doc Smith's use of language is amazing, even if it corny beyond belief by present-day standards. When one of his Skylark thousand rows of apple trees.", I was hooked. In addition to _The Dragon Lensman_ and _Lensman from Rigel_, mentioned by seismo!decuac!aplcen!aplvax!jwm@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Meritt) Duncan Kyle has completed his trilogy with _The Z Lensman_, focusing on Nadreck, the third non-human Second Stage lensman. Harold Wyzansky wyzansky@nadc.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 19:35:23 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles@RUTGERS.EDU (Edwin Wiles) Subject: Re: Lensman" and other non-Doc Smith Lensman books leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes: >Doc obviously believed in Abosolute Good and Absolute Evil. To even >write such lines as Kyle did shows a fundamental lack of >understanding of Doc's universe. Unfortunately for you, your paragraph here shows your own lack of understanding of Doc's universe. I've just been re-reading the Lensman books. In #3 "First Lensman", in a conversation with Mentor, Virgil Samms discovers that Mentor does NOT believe in Absolute Good/Evil. It is quite clearly stated. To the person who complained that the books were 'wooden', that might be said of the first book, "Triplanetary", but I don't think you could say so for the remaining books. The first book also had a lot of "John...Martha...John...Martha...John...Martha...John... Martha". :-) You know, the scene in the old flame movies where the two lovers are running at each other across a wind swept grassy field calling each others name! (ugh...) Enjoy! Edwin Wiles seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles Net Express, Inc. 1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300 Vienna, VA 22180 ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 87 02:17:49 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Rich Garrett) Subject: Re: Seventh Lensman book (Was: "Mr. Saavik") Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes: >As for the unnamed, outlined Lensmen book, E.E. Smith evidently >left a nearly complete manuscript which was considered to be far >too controversial (read "obscene") for its time. Although no one >but Smith's executor has evidently seen the manuscript, Robert >Heinlein speculated that the controversial part was that the >Kinnison children, unable to find equally gifted and powerful >mates, marry each other. Incest is best, eh? Given that they were the result of a breeding program, it makes sense. Two quotes are relevant here. Robert A. Heinlein, "Larger Than Life" in EXPANDED UNIVERSE: ``The Lensman novel [sic] was left unfinished; there was to be at least a seventh volume. As always, Doc had worked it out in great detail but never (to my knowledge) wrote it down... because it was unpublishable -- then. But he told me the ending, orally and in private. ``I shan't repeat it; it is not my story. Possibly somewhere there is a manuscript -- I @i[hope] so! All I will say is that the ending develops by inescapable logic from clues in CHILDREN OF THE LENS.'' From CHILDREN OF THE LENS (one of those clues?), Berkley paperback of July 1982, page 69, end of paragraph 2, regarding Kay, Kat, Con, and Cam: ``They each had dreamed of a man who would be her own equal, physically and mentally, but it had not yet occurred to any of them that one such man already existed.'' Case closed. (Actually, I hope the discussion continues!) Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, OH 44060 +01 216 255 1080 {decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 26 May 87 0907-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #254 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 26 May 87 0907-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #254 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 26 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 254 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 May 87 04:12:05 GMT From: c60a-4er@tart28.berkeley.edu.berkeley.edu (Class Account) Subject: Re: Feminism in Tolkien?! k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes: >Dan Flak writes: >>Tolkien has Galadriel and Eowen as heroic figures. In fact, >>there's a strong feminist line in regards to Eowen. Tolkien >>clearly displays her struggle with her identity and her drastic >>measure to overcome the sexism prevalent in her culture. >While perhaps better than the typical "male superhero saves damsel >in distress" format of a lot of science fiction, I would hardly >call this a "strong feminist line." After all, what happens to >Eowen? She falls in love once, but because "the man of her dreams" >doesn't return her affection she decides to go seek death in battle >(motivational problems, but so far, okay). She fights in battle, >does heroic deeds, is injured, and spends the rest of the war in >the houses of healing (still okay, so far). However, what happens >to her there? She falls for her "true love", and decides she no >longer wants to be a "sheild maiden", but will devote herself to >healing (as I recall). Now what do we have here as a tale of >female maturation? Only irresponsible adolescents want to play >male "games", and that "real women" want to do traditionally >feminine, service-oriented things. > >Granted for when Tolkien was writing, it's not bad, but it's not >that great by current standards. Feminism does not have to imply the of women from stereotypically female professions....I find the attitude that if I decide to pursue a career like nursing or homemaking I am "not a proper feminist" every bit as annoying as the attitude that if I decide to become a nuclear physicist I am "not a proper woman". (I am in fact a geneticist, and am occasionally criticized for "wasting" my math abilities on the life sciences (not as often lately, thank God.)) I thought that Eowen's actions were very much in character. This person has been raised in a culture that glorifies combat, but held back from it all her life for reasons beyond her control. Naturally she idealizes and glorifies war. Then she actually experiences it, and finds, just as a man in her situation would, that war is hell. She loses her father, nearly loses her brother, and is badly hurt herself. Is her sudden revulsion for war, her sudden commitment to healing, so hard to understand? As I recall, Faramir behaved in much the same way, willingly handing over the Stewardship to Aragorn in the hope of being able to live in peace with Eowen. The tone which many readers, including myself, find offensive in books like the Lensman series is the attitude that men are suited for the great adventures, the great accomplishments, and women by their nature are not. But that doesn't mean that it's wrong to show a female secretary, even a stupid blonde secretary. Such people exist, and are fair game for writers. Just don't pretend that no other women exist, or that it is the stupid blonde's pair of X chromosomes that make her fit for nothing but taking dictation and making coffee. Sorry about the flames, but I feel strongly about this.... Mary K. Kuhner ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 87 22:39:32 GMT From: wright@gitpyr.gatech.edu (DAVID WRIGHT) Subject: Tolkien The discussion of feminism in Tolkien (or lack thereof) and in specific the character of Eowen provoked me to reflect on why I have grown more concerned about the underlining messages in Tolkien's writings, a collection which I have enjoyed over the years. I did get a sense of anti-feminism when I first read of Eowen-- its alright for a girl to be a tomboy as long as she realises her mistake and settles down. I will reread the book and see if that impression holds up given the discussion here. I was more depressed by the extreme value placed on proper lineage. Faramir, no matter how just, wise or fair was by birth unworthy of being king over Gondor and meekly submitted to Aragorn. Perhaps it comes with the turf of having a king, but there are enough other characters who have proper ancestry-- Bilbo and Frodo are both descendents of Old Took for example-- that I take it to be a major theme. The whole distinction between high elves and dark elves, descendents of Numinor( sp? ) and wicked men of the Harad, and even the three types of hobbits seem to indicate a stress on ethnicity(genetic) being more important to an individual's character than nuture, parenting, education, free will or any other factor. Of course, maybe I'd only be happy if a people's revolution overthrew the patriarchal monarchist Aragorn and his capitalist lackey dogs and instituted an egalitarian paradise without discrimination on the basis of gender, race, breed, sexual orientation, religion.... ( |-) ). Still, even considering his time period, Tolkien strikes me as cool toward egalitarianism and perhaprs elitist in that certain folks are born to rule. Individuals may fail to live up to their potention ( hence the fall of Numinor ( sp? ) ) but still, a proper leader needs proper background and pedigree. ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 87 17:57:54 GMT From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto) Subject: Re: LOTR vs. the Silmarillion Let me first say that anything of Mr. Milne's article I have not commented on, I agree with whole-heartedly. Alastair Milne writes: >In fact, of course, a major point of the whole story is that [The >Shire] is not [safe, secure, and normal], and that, if its safety >is to be assured, great sacrifice is going to be required of its >inhabitants. Frodo himself says essentially this to Sam when he >finally leaves for the Grey Havens at the end. Not only this, but he also says in no uncertain terms: You can't go home again. His comments to Sam include (something like) "I thought I could settle down again in the Shire. But I can't". He had been changed too much by his experiences ("I am wounded by knife, tooth, and sting. Where shall I find peace?") >>I don't know about that; I find the ruins of Isengard to be one of >>the most striking images in the who thing. > >My own vote is for the terrifying descriptions of Mordor, and of >the hideous plain to its north. But I know just what you mean. Well, not to denigrate these others, but I think that the description of the wail of the Nazgul chills me the most. >.... Furthermore, his personal deeds are numerous: slaying the >Balrog, distracting Sauron while Frodo wore the Ring on Amon Hen, I don't know about this. This implies that anytime someone wields the Ring, they might be spotted by Sauron. I would refer you to passages (sorry, no references offhand) of Sauron's eye roving around the world, trying to find his lost Ring, even when Frodo was traversing the Morgai. Let's also remember that Sauron only spotted Frodo when he claimed the Ring for his own. >Would Saruman otherwise have been defeated? Well, technically speaking, he had been defeated since the Ents had effectively leveled Isengard. But it is true that his Orcs would not have been killed at the Battle of Helm's Deep. And it is also true that Saruman would still have his staff. Semantics, I think. >uniting the City's last defence when Denethor succumbed, Since when did Denethor actually COMMAND the field of battle? Denethor really did nothing while the battle was actually taking place. The image I got was that the armies of Minas Tirith were doing what they had to do, under the command of Prince Imrahil and Faramir (until he was wounded, of course). Also, all that Gandalf did was to bar the way into Minas Tirith after Grond had shattered the Great Gate until the Riders of Rohan made it to the Pelennor. On a separate point: What do people think of the "Unfinished Tales", and "Book of Lost Tales"? I am only part-way through the second "Book" (just finished reading _The Fall of Gondolin_), yet I am highly impressed by Tolkien's style. It only re-inforces my opinion that Tolkien is THE best fantasy writer. Jeff Okamoto hplabs!hpccc!okamoto hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 21:04:53 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!logico!slovax!flak@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Flak) Subject: Re: Feminism in Tolkien?! Kathy, I think we just have a plain old difference of opinion on the topic. We merely see things differently, so don't take this as a flame. My Original comment: > Tolkien has Galadriel and Eowen as heroic figures. In fact, > there's a strong feminist line in regards to Eowen. Tolkien > clearly displays her struggle with her identity and her drastic > measure to overcome the sexism prevalent in her culture. Kathy's response: (my comments interspersed) >While perhaps better than the typical "male superhero saves damsel >in distress" format of a lot of science fiction, I would hardly >call this a "strong feminist line." After all, what happens to >Eowen? She falls in love once, OK - a lot of human beings (male and female) do this. >but because "the man of her dreams" doesn't return her affection >she decides to go seek death in battle (motivational problems, but >so far, okay). Actually, a lot more happens before we get to this part. There is a struggle within herself. She recognizes that she has a problem. She knows she has great potential, as great or greater than any other rider. She knows that she has been restricted from using this potential because she has been trapped in a woman's body. She resents being treated as a second class citizen. (For a woman to even think of such things!). Eventually, she does something about it. When her love is rejected by Aragon, she doesn't do the typical "woman's thing" (I suppose that would be to pine away, or commit suicide). She decides to do what she knows she can do best. Actually, I think that she was confused with regards to Aragon. I don't think it was love, I think it was envy. (He had the chance to show his potential). >She fights in battle, does heroic deeds, is injured, and spends the >rest of the war in the houses of healing (still okay, so far). >However, what happens to her there? She falls for her "true love", >and decides she no longer wants to be a "shield maiden", One of the reasons I left the Air Force was the impact it had on my family life. I don't find this reaction as being particularly feminine or whimpish. >but will devote herself to healing (as I recall). And what's so bad about that. I wish my powers to create, to heal, to restore, and to renew were stronger. In fact, one of the chief male characters, Aragon, had, (among his many other titles), the title of "renewer and restorer". I know that the primary intent of this title is the renewer and restorer of the kingdom, but there's too much reference to his "Elven philosophy" (those exact words aren't in the book), to let it go only at that. "The hands of a king are the hands of a healer". (If that's not an exact quote, it's close). >Now what do we have here as a tale of female maturation? Of female maturation (whatever that's supposed to be), I see nothing in particular. Of personal maturation, I see a lot. I still maintain it's easier to destroy than to create. To turn down the former in favor of the latter, isn't "going soft", it takes a great deal of courage. >Only irresponsible adolescents want to play male "games", and that >"real women" want to do traditionally feminine, service-oriented >things. I don't see Eowen as an irresponsible adolescent. Her love for the king was greater than her love of duty, her love for Aragon, and perhaps her love for Farimir. Don't we all face decisions to make? I associate with a unique group of women. They are all winners. They all do things that can be considered traditionally "male games". Yet they are very feminine. I don't see where being feminine means being subservient or vice-versa. Perhaps I'm working with the wrong definition. As I said at the top of the article, I may be getting more out of the story, (perhaps even, stuff that isn't there), than you. Dan Flak R & D Associates 3625 Perkins Lane SW Tacoma,Wa 98466 206-581-1322 {psivax,ism780}!logico!slovax!flak {hplsla,uw-beaver}!tikal!slovax!flak ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 87 13:26:32 GMT From: adb@elrond.calcomp.com (Alan D. Brunelle) Subject: Re: Tolkien wright@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (DAVID WRIGHT) writes: > I was more depressed by the extreme value placed on proper > lineage. Faramir, no matter how just, wise or fair was by birth > unworthy of being king over Gondor and meekly submitted to > Aragorn. Faramir did not 'meekly submit', but joyously accepted Aragorn. Also - because one is beloved by his people, is just wise and fair does not mean one can be King. The title of King is inherently inherited. Note that Faramir was Steward by lineage as well, and that the Steward was in all save name, the King of Gondor. >Perhaps it comes with the turf of having a king, but there are >enough other characters who have proper ancestry-- Bilbo and Frodo >are both descendents of Old Took for example-- that I take it to be >a major theme. The whole distinction between high elves and dark >elves, The distinction is between those that have seen the light, and those that have not. Those elves that lived within the area of the Two Trees of Valinor were especially blessed with both health and wisdom. It is more important to note that a Dark Elf (one of the Sindar) was of great importance in the War (Legolas) while a Caliquendi (eg. Glorfindel or Rivendell) was not sent with the Nine Walkers because, Elrond thought that by power alone the task could not be accomplished. > descendents of Numinor( sp? ) and wicked men of the Harad, and > even the three types of hobbits seem to indicate a stress on > ethnicity(genetic) being more important to an individual's > character than nuture, parenting, education, free will or any > other factor. Of course, maybe I'd only be happy if a people's > revolution overthrew the patriarchal monarchist Aragorn and his > capitalist lackey dogs and instituted an egalitarian paradise > without discrimination on the basis of gender, race, breed, sexual > orientation, religion.... ( |-) ). Still, even considering his > time period, Tolkien strikes me as cool toward egalitarianism and > perhaprs elitist in that certain folks are born to rule. > Individuals may fail to live up to their potention ( hence the > fall of Numinor ( sp? ) ) but still, a proper leader needs proper > background and pedigree. This whole argument seems to rest upon the fact that Tolkien emphasized the fact that there were certain unalienable rights that different groups had: Aragorn had the right to the throne and to, eg, the Palintiri; but what was more then that, his 20+ forefathers had the right as well - but did not actively persue the throne until their line could get rid of Sauron - whose existence was allowed by the fact that Isildur did not destroy the Ring. The reason Aragorn was so well accepted (Please note that in the _Return of The King_ Aragorn is welcomed back to his city when Faramir asks the people if Aragorn should be their king and they enthusiastically agree, this may not be democracy, but it sure seems to be by popular opinion as well as lineage.) was that he was a major mover in both saving Gondor, but also for saving Faramir - by 'the hands of a king'. The hobbits had the right to live in peace and in their own ways, Aragorn saw to it that this was true while he was with the Rangers, and after he became King he made it a law. Note that the "High and Mighty" Numenorean Aragorn was more then willing to accept the lowly Rohirrim Eomer as his brother, friend and companion. This may have not been the best written response, but I believe that Tolkien's works deserve more credit then what has been posted. Alan D. Brunelle uucp: ...{decvax,harvard,savax,wanginst}!elrond!adb adb@elrond.CalComp.COM phone: (603) 885-8145 us mail: Calcomp/Lockheed DPD (PTP2-2D02) Hudson NH 03051-0908 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 27 May 87 0755-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #255 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 27 May 87 0755-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #255 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 27 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 255 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - First SF (17 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 May 87 04:34:12 GMT From: oltz@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Michael Oltz) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction (spoilers) Yes, I remember Matthew Looney, his sister Maria, his Uncle Lucky, Professor Ploozer etc. They were by Jerome Beatty. Were there seven or eight of them? My favorite was "Matthew Looney and the Space Pirates". The first science fiction story I can remember reading was a juvenile novel called "Rusty's Space Ship". I grabbed it off the library shelf because of the title, being interested in the US space program (no followups to that remark here, please, use sci.space). For those curious, but not curious enough to read it, the plot... A boy has built a wooden 'space ship' in his back yard (nothing as nice as the Mushroom Planet ships). An alien resembling a cross between a kangaroo and an aardvark lands on its roll-uppable pizza-pan spaceship. The alien can make the wooden spaceship fly by rubbing same with its rolled-up pizza pan. It also has air pills and energy pills so you can go traveling in space without bothering with suits (no mention of radiation or UV here). It also has amnesia and is lost. The alien takes the boy and the girl next door on a tour of the solar system, hoping to jog its memory. Finally, it remembers it is from the Andromeda galaxy. Mike Oltz ...!rochester!cornell!tn!tcgould!oltz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 87 11:52:21 -0700 From: Jim Hester Subject: Re: First Science Fiction Well, the first SF book(s) I read were either "Bolts, a Robot Dog", or the Tom Swift Jr. series. Neither hooked me to read more science fiction. The hook was in about fifth or sixth grade, when they marched my class into a bookmobile and forced us each to check out a book. As the deadline approached, I grabbed a copy of Heinlein's "Red Planet", mostly because of a kind of neat cover picture. I read it, enjoyed it, and thought no more about it. A few years later, a similar situation occurred in Jr. High: we were marched into the library and ordered to check out a book. As luck would have it, I ran across the same book. This time, after reading it and noticing that some other books filed next to it were written by the same person, I had a brainstorm: Maybe I'd like some of these others too! I thus read all of the Heinlein (about five) in that library. Further class reading introduced me to Asimov and Clarke, and I read all of theirs, generalizing my new brilliant insight about the similarity of work by a given author. It took me another couple of years to think of persuing science fiction as a subject, rather than just the three authors I had enjoyed to that point. What followed was a berserk almost-orgy-like glut of science fiction reading in the High school library. Bliss! As you can see, I was incredibly naive. To answer the basic question, though, it depends strongly on age. Some of the early Heinlein stuff and almost all of Asimov (Foundation trilogy excluded) is good to hook ages under 15. Clarke is good for about 12-20. As a first "hook" book for someone older than 20, I'd have to thnk about it. Probably something like Ringworld. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 20:49:11 GMT From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction I started reading science fiction because of movies and television. I saw _2001_ when I was seven years old, and believed for the next year or so that there really was a space station between the earth and the moon. I read _The Hobbit_, _TLoTR_, and the Narnia books, but I never read science fiction per se until I was eleven. That was when I first saw Star Trek, and fell madly in love with Spock. My Mom said that Star Trek was science fiction, so I went down to the library and, starting with the A's, looked for books with the little library spaceship sticker on them. So my first science fiction books were by Asimov, Bova, and Clarke. A wonderful start. Karen Williams g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 87 15:56:00 GMT From: webb.applicon!webb@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: First Science Fiction By shear luck, the first SF/F story that I read was J.R.R. Tolkien's _The Hobbit_. We were living in Indonesia at the time, and I had finished all the other fiction (mostly westerns) in the house. At first glance, _The Hobbit_ did not appear as if it would be very interesting, but once I started it, I could not put it down. It hooked me on the SF/F genre because of the world it portrayed and the vistas that it offered my imagination. I had never read a book as evocative (in the sense of stimulating the imagination) as _The Hobbit_ before, and it made quite an impression on my 12yr old mind. Peter Webb {allegra|decvax|harvard|yale|mit-eddie|mirror}!ima!applicon!webb ulowell!applicon!webb raybed2!applicon!webb ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 87 03:10:53 GMT From: 6062871@pucc.princeton.edu (Raj Manandhar) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction I started out, I think, with the Tom Swift books. These are about a teen-age inventor with a dad of the same name who always ends up solving a mystery using one of his inventions. The books had names like "Tom Swift and His Triphibian Atomicar" and were put out by the same company and same format (except yellow binding) as the Hardy boys. Then came "Rocket Ship Galileo" by Heinlein, chosen on the basis of the title. Then I read everything with the library's rocket-ship/atom labels. Incidently, I now find much (though not all) of Heinlein sexist and occasionally offensive. "Rocket Ship Galileo" was probably both, but it didn't bother ten-year-old me. I've never seen the novel since. Raj Manandhar 6062871@pucc.bitnet {ihnp4,etc.}!psuvax1!pucc.bitnet!6062871 417 Edwards Hall Princeton University Princeton, NJ 08544 609/734-7368 ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 21:38:45 GMT From: seismo!uw70!uw-june!ewan@RUTGERS.EDU (Ewan Tempero) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction--huh??? obnoxio@BRAHMS.BERKELEY.EDU writes: > ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero) writes: >>So people, what SF story did you first read and why did it hook >>you to SF? > What a strange question. What makes you think the first SF story > that someone read hooked them? Yeah good point. In fact some replies I've received specifically said that it wasn't the first book that hooked them. So the right question is: What was the first SF story that hooked you to SF and why or: What was the first SF story that you read and did it hook you (if so why) or: Relate your fondest memories of starting out as an SF-lover... Ewan Tempero University of Washington UUCP:!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan Internet:ewan@june.cs.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 87 14:53:36 GMT From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction--huh??? ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes: >Relate your fondest memories of starting out as an SF-lover... We lived with my grandparents when I was growing up. Back in the early 1950s, I used to sneak into my grandmother's room and borrow her "Worlds of If" and "Amazing" magazines to read. She returned the favor when I was a teenager in the 1960s. I suppose the books that had the greatest impact on my becoming an SF-lover were Groff Conklin's excellent anthologies (anybody else remember them?) and Ray Bradbury's story collections. Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 87 02:20:12 GMT From: rodgin@hpccc.hp.com (Lisa Rodgin) Subject: Re: Re: First Science Fiction (spoilers) The first science-fiction story I read was "The Star" by Arthur C. Clarke. It was in a book called (believe it or not) something like "Ten Science- Fiction Stories for People who Think They Hate Science-Fiction". There were a number of other famous short stories in that book, including ones by Ray Bradbury and Robert Heinlein, but the one that I remember vividly is the Clarke story. Lisa Rodgin hplabs!hpccc!rodgin ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 87 17:25:35 GMT From: moss!hropus!prc@RUTGERS.EDU (pete clark) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction I don't remember what was the very first sf book that I read was...but the one that really got me hooked may well have been it. It was called Foundation and Empire..the second book in the Foundation Trilogy by Asimov.The very next thing I read was a collection of Asimov's short stories called something to the effect of "The best of Isaac Asimov" and included Nightfall...the best sf short story (arguably) ever written. Now, of course, I consider Prof. Asimov a near god. Peter Clark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 87 22:05:28 EDT From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: First SF My first SF story was Walter Farley's TIsland Stallion Races. I was seven and didn't know it was SF. My first *conscious* SF story was Asimov's The Caves of Steel when I was recovering from surgery at age 12. I subsequently read 90% of Heinlein that summer and started watching Star Trek that fall. The result is that I just finished an SF novel, own a few hundred SF books (out of a 5,000 volume library), and still regard SF as my favorite form of fiction. So it goes. Lisa Evans Malden, MA ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 87 20:19:27 GMT From: seismo!sdcsvax!celerity!jjw@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim ) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction What really turned me on to SF was not a book or story but the movie "Destination Moon." I was 8 when it came out and was enthralled by the concept of space travel. I remember my favorite parts of the movie related to "weightlessness" -- walking "upside down" in magnetic boots and the "rescue" with the oxygen tank. After this, I read everything I could get my hands on about rockets, and astronomy. This included all of the science fiction in the juvenile section of the local library (a lot of Heinlein). ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 87 13:21:26 GMT From: seismo!mnetor!yetti!geac!len@RUTGERS.EDU (Leonard Vanek) Subject: Re: First SF/F It's too long ago to be sure, but a couple of the earliest SF books that I remember reading were a Heinlein (juvenile) titled (I think) "Tunnel in the Sky" and a time travel story, whose title escapes me, by Andre Norton. In particular, the former caused me to read every Heinlen book in the school library. Also early in my SF experience were a couple of short stories -- Forrestor's (?) "The Machine Stops" and Clarke's (?) "By the Waters of Babylon" (I have no confidence that I am correct about either of these authors.) What these stories all did to me was fill me with a sense of awe or wonder, and that is what I look for in SF to this day. By the way, long before I read SF I was watching it on TV and in the movies. I think these are what really hooked me on it. (I saw the movie "Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea" when I was no more than 6, long before I read the book.) Books were just a more fruitful source -- especially for good quality SF. Len ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 87 17:48:23 GMT From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok) Subject: Re: First SF The first SF that I read was from two books, entitled SCIENCE FICTION STORIES and MORE SCIENCE FICTION STORIES (pretty original, huh?). I can't remember the publisher, but the stories were pretty good. I still enjoy most of them. I got these the same time I got THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA, when I was 8 or so. The first author (I don't count NARNIA as sf) that got me hooked, though, was Clarke. I think the book was EXPEDITION TO EARTH. Since then, I've read everything of his that I could find. He's the only author that I'm waiting for *him* do to something. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 87 01:37:09 GMT From: seismo!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: First Science Fiction My first exposure was one of those "you all have to read one of the books on this shelf" experiences in school, jeez, it must have been about Grade 4. I don't remember the title, but it was a collection, had a spaceship/station on the cover, and included "The Roads must Roll", "Nightfall", a Poul Anderson(?) story with a Martian Sherlock Holmes, and several others I recall only vaguely. That was before I knew Science Fiction existed. Then I bought "The Day of the Triffids", but didn't know until later that it too was categorized as SF. The first books I read *knowing* they were Science Fiction and actually browsing through that section in a bookstore were "Traitor to the Living" by Farmer and "The Genesis Machine" by Hogan. Although my memory is hazy, and I might have gotten "The Star Beast" and "Tunnel in the Sky" by Heinlein first. John ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 87 23:17:30 GMT From: 6065833@pucc.princeton.edu (Una Smith) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction _The Hobbit_ was my first Science Fiction book, and actually the first book I ever read, at the age of 10. In fact, I COULD NOT read when I began that book. I had refused for years to read, mainly because the stories people wanted me to read were boring (they'd read them to me, trying to interest me). My 4th grade teacher started the year off by reading us a few pages of the Hobbit each afternoon before we went home. I was fascinated, and I checked out the school's second copy when she didn't read it fast enough. Of course, I didn't do very well, but I would look at the words and try to guess, and then the next day at school she would read the relevant part, and I would find out what was really going on in the story. This is how I learned to read (YEARS of effort by special teaching aides didn't do anything for me). I had an advantage: my vocabulary was larger than the average 10-year-old's, because my father, an English professor, made sure we kids could understand him. By the time the teacher finished THE HOBBIT, I COULD read, and had finished the book myself a few weeks previously. This topic has really brought back some old memories. Una Smith 6065833@PUCC ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 87 17:23:41 GMT From: quirk@europa.unm.edu (Capt. Gym Quirk) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction Ah...the memories. My fist exposure to 'true' SF was in mid-'75 when I got to stay up late to watch a Star Trek rerun. Several years later, my 4th grade teacher read _The Hobbit_ to the class for my first exposure to Fantasy. Then, STAR WARS hit the screen and I was a Sci-Fi addict (When Cattlecar Galaxia hit the tube, I really got into it). In '82, I got my hands on Asimov's _Foundation_ trilogy and started to read 'the hard stuff'. I've been hooked ever since. Regards T. Kogoma quirk@europa.unm.edu {gatech:ucbvax:unm-la}!hc!hi!unmvax!quirk@europa ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 87 20:35:21 GMT From: husc6!necntc!frog!john@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: First Science Fiction--huh??? I remember reading the Mushroom Planet series in roughly 4th grade (but I don't remember them very well) (plus some other story about rocket travel that I cannot recall at all, even though I can still picture the rack in the elementary school library from whence I plucked it...). I believe I read a fair amount of Bradbury during early Junior High Schoool (but don't remember much of it). The first SF story I read that I REALLY remember was "A Boy and His Dog" in a collection of Nebula Award stories (and shortly thereafter I read "I Have No Mouth...", which also made a lasting impression). John Woods Charles River Data Systems Framingham MA, (617) 626-1101 decvax!frog!john mit-eddie!jfw jfw%mit-ccc@MIT-XX.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 27 May 87 0822-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #256 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 27 May 87 0822-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #256 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 27 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 256 Today's Topics: Books - Zelazny (4 msgs) & Book Ban (5 msgs) & Body Armor:2000 & Requests (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 May 87 20:58:32 EDT From: brothers@sabbath.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) Subject: new zelazny book "A Dark Travelling" is just out, Zelazny's new novel. It's a juvenile, or YA novel, but it is still pretty fun to read. The narrator has a sister who's a witch, a house guest who is a martial arts master, and oh, yes, he just happens to be a werewolf. I wonder whether Zelazny was consciously copying Poul Anderson's stories about a character who "oh yes, just happens to be a werewolf". One thing confuses me a little though: On the dust jacket, it says Zelazny is the creator of the "Alien Speedway" series, published by Bantam books. I was under the impression I had read all the Zelazny there was (including a short exclusively published in some obscure fanzine or another....). Alien Speedway series? What is this? Clue me in, please..... Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 87 04:49:35 GMT From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) Subject: Re: new zelazny book From: brothers@sabbath.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) >"A Dark Travelling" is just out, Zelazny's new novel. It's a >juvenile, What's he doing working on something else while we're all waiting for the further adventures of Merlin & Co.? [:-)] Seriously, anyone know when that's due out? Presumably we'll see Blood of Amber in paperback a few months before that, but I'd still like to know... Dan ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 87 03:24:32 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: new zelazny book >>"A Dark Travelling" is just out, Zelazny's new novel. It's a >>juvenile, >What's he doing working on something else while we're all waiting >for the further adventures of Merlin & Co.? [:-)] Authors get tired of hacking on the same thing all the time, and like to have multiple projects (and multiple advances....) to work on when they start seriously considering killing the main character off for sheer obnoxiousness. >Seriously, anyone know when that's due out? Presumably we'll see >Blood of Amber in paperback a few months before that, but I'd still >like to know... The paperback of Blood is due out in either July or August. It happens to have a beautiful, stunning, wonderful cover. The hardback is probably coming from Arbor House, and I don't have any information on it, but they rarely come out more than a couple of months later than the paperback, so I'd expect it to be soon as well. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 03:32:10 GMT From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Re: Zelazny's _Jack_of_Shadows_ From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >There is another story published in _The Illustrated Zelazny_. It >is called "Shadowjack". My copy is an ACE (NY NY) paperback 1979. >It refers to a large format version in 1978 that I have not seen >but I believe in the same series as illustrated books by Delaney >and Moorcock. > >The book also contains 4 other early stories. I would recomend this >book to anyone who can accept non-comic book illustrations. I'm really non-plussed by this comment. The works in _The Illustrated Zelazny_ are most certainly comic-book work; they are very straightforward comics work, with good stories by Zelazny, and excellently rendered pictures by Grey Morrow, a long time comics professional. I think that you have merely made the mistake of confusing the terms "comic book" and "crap", admittedly an easy mistake to make if you haven't read comics in a long time. (I could be completely off-base here, but that's what it sounds like you said.) Zelazny is a long time comics fan (and is even quoted as saying so on the cover of the latest issue of _Micra_), and would not be insulted by calling _TIZ_ "comic book". _TIZ_ is also very good. "A Rose for Ecclesiastes" works amazingly well in comics form; it helps that Morrow draws absolutely stunningly beautiful women. _TIZ_ includes "Shadowjack", "A Rose...", "The Doors of His Face, the Lamps of His Mouth", "Collector's Item", a very nice Amber Tapestry, and other short pieces. It's worth having if you like Zelazny. This book was originally published in a large (8 1/2 x 11") format, and was edited by Byron Preiss. There was also _The Illustrated Ellison_, which I don't think was as well done. Delany has collaborated with Howard Chaykin on a graphic novel called _Empire_; Moorcock and Chaykin did an Eternal Champion GN called _The Swords of Heaven, the Flowers of Hell_; and last but not least, Chaykin did the first half of an adaptation of _The Stars My Destination_ by Alfred Bester that seemed quite good from what I saw of it. Kevin J. Maroney ...!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 87 17:11:01 CDT From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi) Subject: Re: More on Book Ban From Ed Ahrenhoerster: >> "books banned include..." _Watership Down_ >Say what? Just what is wrong with this book? As I recall, it was >made into a 'G' rated movie. So how could it POSSIBLY get >banned?!?!? Mr. Hall refused to comment on this fact when it was pointed out to him. I believe that WD was banned at the request of the Chief of Thought Police, a local businessman named Charles Collins. Collins doesn't even have any children in school here. I think that Hall and Collins are afraid of the IDEAS in these books. Hall has said that book reports and class discussions shall not delve into "controversial" topics. Exactly what is meant by this is up to the rest of us to decide. Thirty-four of the sixty-seven banned books and plays were made into films or teleplays at least once. Most of the films were shot in the 1930's and 1940's, when there were just about nothing BUT G-rated films. From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter) >One minor question: are several other works considered for banning >by these openminded Nazis? Maybe, I don't know, the Constitution, >the Bible (I DON'T want to get into theology, etc.- just, is this >obscene too?), ALL of Shakespeare's plays, anything political, or >with social connotations? All Bay County teachers must submit justifications to the superintendant for all of their classroom book selections. He alone then decides which books are permissible. Hall says that a student may read a book on his/her own and submit a "non-controversial" book report, if written permission from the student's parents is obtained. Based on Hall's verbal instructions, the Bible wouldn't be allowed. The Bible contains everything that Hall & Co. want to shield our impressionable youth from. You can forget about Shakespeare - too much sex and nasty insults. >Dante?.... A quote from the soon to be published, expurgated version of the Inferno: "Keep it up pal, and you'll be gosh-darned to heck!" >I assume we're talkin' high school here,(unless grade school has The rules apply to junior and senior high schools, so far. >to some extent. I suppose _Don Quixote de La Mancha_, _The >Hunchback of Notre Dam_, Herman Melville, etc. are also included I'm sure they would be banned as well if they were submmitted for use by a teacher. By the by, the people of Bay County overwhelmingly oppose the book ban. The Mayor and council of Panama city voted to condemn the policy. A group of students, parents, and teachers has filed a class action suit in federal court against Hall and the board. The local public library set up a feature display of all of the banned books. I will e-mail a complete list of the banned books upon request. I realize that this discussion has little to do with SF - except that SF-lovers are also, in general, lovers of books, ideas, and quality education. Marco Barbarisi marco@ncsc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 87 10:13:16 CDT From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi) Subject: List of Banned Books I've received several requests for this list of banned books and thus decided to post it on SF-Lovers. I tried to respond to everyone who sent e-mail to me, but our new and improved mail program can't deal with certain addresses. Here is a complete list of the books banned by the Bay County school board for classroom use: Three Comedies of Amercan Life Shane The Great Gatsby A Separate Peace The Red Badge of Courage A Farewell to Arms Intruder in the Dust Lost Horizon Oedipus Rex Watership Down Deathwatch Death Be Not Proud Animal Farm Tale Blazer Library Best Short Stories Twelfth Night Arrangement in Literature After the First Death The Crucible The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin Long Day's Journey Into Night The Outsiders The Pearl Fahrenheit 451 Alas, Babylon The Prince and the Pauper The Emperor Jones Winterset The Man Who Came to Dinner The Little Foxes The Glass Menagerie Mister Roberts A Separate Peace Adventures in English Literature Lord of the Flies Lord of the Flies (Casebook Edition) The Call of the Wild Great Expectations The Canterbury Tales Brave New World The Mayor of Casterbridge The Merchant of Venice Player Piano In Cold Blood The Inferno (Ciardi translation) Promethius Unbound Oedipus the King Hippolytus King Lear Ghosts Miss Julie On Baile's Strand Desire Under the Elms Wuthering Heights Hamlet Major British Writers Growing Up A Raisin in the Sun The Old Man and the Sea To Kill a Mockingbird Exploring Life Through Literature The Oedipus Plays of Sophocles McTeague The Fixer Of Mice and Men Never Cry Wolf About David I am the Cheese Marco Barbarisi marco@ncsc.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 87 18:04:00 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!hapke@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: More on Book Ban I never get too upset about these attempts to ban books in high schools. Most students hear that 'The Decameron' or 'The Canterbury Tales' are salacious, rush out to buy copies, and are then exposed to writers they would never have read otherwise. We should consider it an (unintentional) attempt to improve high school education. Warren Hapke Gould CSD/Urbana ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!hapke ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 87 19:16:17 GMT From: moss!hropus!prc@RUTGERS.EDU (pete clark) Subject: Re: List of Banned Books Correct me if I'm wrong...but isn't Fahrenheit 451 on your list of BANNED books(?)....ahhh..the ironies of life Pete Clark ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 87 18:03:46 GMT From: cit-vax!elroy!nrcvax!terry@RUTGERS.EDU (Terry Grevstad) Subject: Re: More on Book Ban From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi) > Any book with the word "goddamn" in it or "a lot of vulgar > language" is banned. Here are some of those books: > > _Lost Horizon_ > _Oedipus Rex_ > _Watership Down_ > _Animal Farm_ > _Best Short Stories_ > _The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin_ > _Fahrenheit 451_ > _The Glass Menagerie_ > _Lord of the Flies_ > _The Canterbury Tales_ > _Brave New World_ > _The Inferno (Ciardi translation)_ > (Maybe Dante should of used 'heck') > _Ghosts_ > _Oedipus the King_ Well, I already own most of these, but it looks like I will have to run out and buy a few more books ;-). MY kids are going to be able to read these books because I intend to have them in my home. My defense to banned books is to buy the books myself. That way the ubiquitous ``they'' can burn but never eradicate good literature. And, if everyone else who enjoys good books does the same, there would have to be a *mighty* big bonfire to burn everything. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 87 13:45:15 PDT From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa Subject: Scapegoat by CJ Cherryh An excellent book that has the story Scapegoat, along with many other good powered armor stories is Body Armor: 2000. All the stories somehow have armor in them, as in Heinlein's Starship Troopers and other stories. I heartily recommend this book. As usual, MHG and CW come through in their secondary, but essential roles. Body Armor: 2000 Haldeman, Joe, MH Greenberg, and Charles Waugh Ace 1986 Contact! David Drake The Warbots Larry S. Todd The Scapegoat C.J. Cherryh The Last Crusade George H. Smith Hired Man Richard C. Meredith Early Model Robert Sheckley In the Bone Gordon R. Dickson The Chemically Pure Warriors Allan Kim Lang Right to Life Thomas A. Easton Or Battle's Sound Harry Harrison Hero Joe Haldeman ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 87 06:08:13 GMT From: richard@gryphon.cts.com (Richard Sexton) Subject: Various Does anybody remember a book, that I read about '74 that had on the cover an alien face with sharp pointed filed teeth, and a story about some guys that go to a planet and convince the locals to farm their brethern, who grow fat and happy, only to be tortured to extract a drug called Herogyn, which is produced (or so the earthlings convince them) when they are tortured. If all you guys dont like Heinlein, try reading som e of the older stuff. I mean really old stuff from the 30's-40's like _Revolt in 2100_. It's completely different from the STASL type of stories. On the other hand if you don't like RAH because of deviations from social norms, you *certainly* won't enjoy Silverberg's _The World Inside_ or (perish the thought) _The Book of Skulls_. Heaven forbid, we were FORCED to read the first chapter of The World Inside, under the name "A Happy Day in 2381". And some people can't read Watership Down. Words fail me... Richard Sexton INTERNET: richard@gryphon.CTS.COM UUCP: {akgua,hplabs!hp-sdd,sdcsvax,ihnp4,nosc}!crash!gryphon!richard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 87 13:57:45 CDT From: William DeVaughan Subject: [LTC Don Gober AV 284-9463 : Testing Man] From Bill DeVaughan: A good friend who does not have net access asked me to pass along his request for the attached information. Replies will be gratefully accepted at my box or via the SFL open forum. Thanks - Bill From: LTC Don Gober AV 284-9463 Subject: Testing Man The following poem came, as best I recall, from a Science Fiction story published in the late 1950's and almost certainly before 1964. I can only remember the first part of it. It probably came from a juvenile SF story like Space Cadet, Rocket Jockey, Tom Corbett, etc. I have combed old books and have not found it. Can anybody complete the poem and give me an author and publication data, please. TESTING MAN "Oh, Testing Man, Oh, Testing Man, Oh, how did the last run go?" Thus spoke the stalwart Engineer, "Speak man, for I must know." The Testing Man, he shook his head, And settled in his chair: "Well, I don't know, Oh Engineer, But I think 'twas pretty fair. "Some jackass forgot, before the start, To turn the recorders on, But I got a glimpse of a pressure gauge, 'Tho I'm not sure just which one. "But it must have been a right smart thrust, Cause it bent the frame, by God! And it sure must take a right smart thrust To bend a half-inch rod" ...(the engineer again implores the testing man for what happened) "And I think I saw a little smoke Before the run begun -- Maybe LOX or maybe fuel, Or both, or neither one." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 27 May 87 0835-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #257 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 27 May 87 0835-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #257 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 27 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 257 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson (3 msgs) & Conklin & Friedman & Leiber & Tolkien (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 May 87 16:36:47 GMT From: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes: >Magic and science do mix, I guess. Are there any other books out >there that do a good job of doing this same sort of thing? I enjoyed Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos". Was it part of a series? Here's a question that'll either fall off the table with no response of start another war: Is the "Amber" series a mix of magic and science? My opinion (as if anyone would ask): yes, loosely. Good series, too, especially the early books (as usual, it seems). Kristopher Stephens Amdahl Corporation (408-746-6047) {whatever}!amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 87 01:05:15 GMT From: ted@blia.bli.com (Ted Marshall) Subject: Re: Magic+Science (was: Piers Anthony) Another combination magic and science story I would recommend is _Operation: Chaos_ by Poul Anderson. Enjoyable tidbits like flash units with special polarizing lenses that can trigger the form change in a werewolf. Ted Marshall ucbvax!mtxinu!blia!ted mtxinu!blia!ted@Berkeley.EDU Britton Lee, Inc. 14600 Winchester Blvd Los Gatos, Ca 95030 (408)378-7000 ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 87 21:24:21 GMT From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony (now Poul Anderson) krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens) writes: > I enjoyed Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos". Was it part of a > series? Loosely. _Three Hearts and Three Lions_, _A Midsummer Tempest_, and _Operation Chaos_ all appear to be in the same meta-universe. There are some short stories that take place there also--these short stories involve the House between Worlds (a tavern connected to various timelines). david rickel decwrl!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 87 14:51:58 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley) Subject: Re: Groff Conklin anthologies (was: First Science Subject: Fiction--huh???) wfi@rti.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: > I suppose the books that had the greatest impact on my becoming an >SF-lover were Groff Conklin's excellent anthologies (anybody else >remember them?) and Ray Bradbury's story collections. I remember Groff Conklin's anthologies very well. When I first started reading SF I routinely bought every anthology with his name on it in full confidence it would be well worth the money. I think Robert Silverberg has matched or surpassed Conklin in the ability to put a collection of great stories together, but I can't think of anyone else in the same league. I recently found a used copy of a Conklin anthology called _Adventures_in_Mutation_ in a second hand bookstore. Even if I didn't know Conklin by reputation I couldn't have resisted the title. I was half hoping to find a story in the anthology that I remember reading a long time ago, but have never been able to find since. I am sure it wasn't a very good story, but it made a strong impression on me for some reason, and I would like to read it again. The story was about a mutant race horse that had a coat of a peculiar reddish color; I'm fairly sure the title was something like "Old Red" or at least had the word red in it. The horse was born of normal horse parents but looked more like a big cat than a horse in build. It was so fast that even though its jockey was doing all he could to hold it back in its first race, it still lapped the rest of the field 2 or 3 times. After that race a group of other race horse owner paid off the mutant's owner so that he would agree never to race his horse again. The story's punch line was that the owner didn't mind giving away the rights to race his mutant horse because he hadn't made any agreements about the mutants offspring, and since the horse was a mutant, he would breed true. If anyone can tell me the title and author of this story and/or where to find it, I would be most appreciative. William H. Ansley Graduate Student csnet: ansley@buffalo.csnet uucp: ..!{allegra,decvax,watmath,rocksanne}!sunybcs!ansley bitnet: ansley@sunybcs.bitnet, csdansle@sunyabvc usmail: Computer Science Dept. 226 Bell Hall SUNYAB Buffalo, NY 14260 ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 87 21:06:07 GMT From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic) Subject: Re: Review: _In Conquest Born_ (no real spoilers) dykimber@phoenix.UUCP (Dan Kimberg) writes: >One advantage that I see in this book is that it is written in >episodes. Yes, I liked this style very much. It gives the author a way to track a character for a long time and show psychological changes without invoking the usual `inside knowledge' routine. In fact, in the whole book there are only a few episodes written from the view of the two leads - mostly they are characterized from the view of different people around them. The style and strength of these episodes varies, but then the observers differ wildly, too. >Sometimes C.S. Friedman sidetracks for what seems an entirely >irrelevant episode, and sometimes falls back on the tennis court >style of showing little bits of each side in succession. In any >case, some of these I'm certain could almost stand on their own as >short stories. Without going into detail, there were several >episodes in the book that were just outstanding. I agree. I also think that these `side episodes' provide authenticity to the whole creation. Again, Friedman is not telling but *showing* us - as it should be. >However, there were also those that bordered on the utterly dumb. Interesting. What episode struck you as `utterly dumb'? I've just finished the book yesterday, and on first reading I found nothing qualifying. Boring and somewhat irrelevant perhaps, but dumb? There is one thing that I'd like to ask you (and others who have read the book). How do you feel about the ending? ***** Spoiler Warning ***** I don't know about you, but to me it feels... wrong, somehow. Until about 10-20 pages before the end, everything feels right, coming right out of the setup. I know there will be that personal confrontation at last, and I have all kinds of hopes and fears on how it will come out (having sympathies on both sides). And then it begins, and is over almost immediately (the flashback of her memories doesn't contribute to the confrontation proper - or does it?). She saddles him with *exactly* the same preprogrammed hangups as she had (has?) (the lack of Touch Discipline, that is) and vanishes, leaving him in despair and total loneliness. So? This is an ending?! It just doesn't fit into the flow of the story, it feels like a major *break*. I was *hoping* for *synthesis*, that they would turn their `honorable hatred' to constructive ends, recognizing that their love-hatred was benefiting them both (and, perhaps, their cultures). I was *fearing* that Friedman would just kill him off (too simple, that). But this? Somehow it reeks almost of a moral afterthought - after all, he's a mass murderer in an evil society, so he's got to get his punishment before the story ends, right? After Friedman has managed in all the story not to pass moral judgement, this idea feels AWFUL to me. Or is it - dread thought - just an after-the-fact alteration to prepare for a sequel? Arrrgh! I should add, per explanation, that throughout the book I've kept my sympathies for Zatar, as well as his enemy. Does that make me emotionally unacceptable? That's up to you, I guess. Up to that final confrontation, I was very happy that Friedman was *not* passing (conventional) judgement on him. After that ending, much of that appreciation is lost. Tell me what you think. I really want to know how *you* see this ending... perry@inteloa.intel.com tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 87 06:48:17 GMT From: ogil@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Lord Julius) Subject: Re: Uncollected Leiber *Mild Spoiler* adt@ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas) writes: >On the subject of one off Fafhred and the Grey Mouser stories I >remember one called The_Two_Best_Thieves_In_Lankhmar where the >dynamic duo get ripped off by two female thieves. I can't remember >where it appeared, possbily in an anthology of S&S stories called >The_Barbarian_Swordsmen. This one was printed in _Swords Against Wizardry_, #4 in the Ace collection of Fafhrd & Mouser stories. It was sandwiched between "Stardock" and "The Lords of Quarmall," as an explanation of how the pair lost their collection of invisible jewels and therefore had to accept Hasjarl's and Gwaay's offers. I believe it was written some time after "Stardock," and definitely a good deal after "The Lords of Quarmall." BTW, what was the name of the F&GM story in Leiber's anthology _Heroes and Horrors_? I glanced through it once at the bookstore but was too poor to buy it. I know it was after Fafhrd lost his hand, and it was set on Rime Isle, but I don't know how it fits in with "The Curse of the Smalls and the Stars" (which I thought was a good story! :-). Any information would be greatly appreciated, and thank you for your support. Brian W. Ogilvie {uwvax,hao}!oddjob!sphinx!ogil ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 87 00:29:50 GMT From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen) Subject: Re: Tolkien wright@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (DAVID WRIGHT) writes: > The discussion of feminism in Tolkien (or lack thereof) and in >specific the character of Eowen provoked me to reflect on why I >have grown more concerned about the underlining messages in >Tolkien's writings, a collection which I have enjoyed over the >years. I did get a sense of anti-feminism when I first read of >Eowen-- its alright for a girl to be a tomboy as long as she >realises her mistake and settles down. There are several issues being raised here, so perhaps we should begin by sorting them out. First there is the question of whether Tolkien's writings reflect the ideological influence of the feminist movement. The answer is obviously NO. Second there is the assertion that Tolkien is "anti-feminist." If this is to mean that his (few) female characters have stereotyped roles or inferior status, it seems almost impossible to defend. Even without Eowyn, what are we to make of Galadriel, the mightiest of the Eldar in Middle Earth? Or Luthien, who rescued Beren from the dungeons of Sauron and with him wrested the Silmaril from the iron crown of Morgoth? Finally there is the question of Eowen, the "tomboy." To this I can only answer with Gandalf's words to Eomer, "My friend, you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours." >I was more depressed by the extreme value placed on proper lineage. Why is this depressing? Or rather, why must Tolkien be read through the filter of a particular political ideology? Monarchism is unpopular in America, and perhaps the blunders of the hapless Hanovers have earned it that unpopularity. For myself, I would gladly exchange our present leaders for a King like Aragorn. Even now, the word resonates with a kind of enchantment. To quote _That_Hideous_Strength_, "For the first time in all those years, she tasted the word _King_ itself with all linked associations of battle, marriage, priesthood, mercy, and power." If only we lived in a world in which merit was inherited! Alas, that Tolkien is only writing fantasy. >Still, even considering his time period, Tolkien strikes me as cool >toward egalitarianism and perhaprs elitist in that certain folks >are born to rule. Hard words, and doubtless true. But do they have any relevance to the literary merit of his works? Michael Larsen ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 87 16:08:14 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Feminism in Tolkien?! flak@slovax.UUCP (Dan Flak) writes repsonding to someone: >>While perhaps better than the typical "male superhero saves damsel >>in distress" format of a lot of science fiction, I would hardly >>call this a "strong feminist line." After all, what happens to >>Eowen? She falls in love once, but because "the man of her >>dreams" doesn't return her affection she decides to go seek death >>in battle (motivational problems, but so far, okay). Actually, it was fairly obvious to me that Eowyn was "in love" not with Aragorn but with what he was, i.e. courageous fighter. And she wanted to be one also. >>She fights in battle, does heroic deeds, is injured, and spends the >>rest of the war in the houses of healing (still okay, so far). >>However, what happens to her there? She falls for her "true love", >>and decides she no longer wants to be a "sheild maiden", but will >>devote herself to healing (as I recall). I'd rather be a healer than a warrior myself. What's wrong with that? >"renewer and restorer". I know that the primary intent of this >title is the renewer and restorer of the kingdom, but there's too >much reference to his "Elven philosophy" (those exact words aren't >in the book), to let it go only at that. "The hands of a king are >the hands of a healer". (If that's not an exact quote, it's close). It's exact. >>Only irresponsible adolescents want to play male "games", and that >>"real women" want to do traditionally feminine, service-oriented >>things. > > I don't see Eowen as an irresponsible adolescent. Her love for the >king was greater than her love of duty, her love for Aragon, and >perhaps her love for Farimir. Don't we all face decisions to make? Only irresponsible adolescents think that war is glorious, as Eowyn did. Having experienced it, she soon learned that "war is hell", and decided to become a healer instead. I'd make the same choice. >I associate with a unique group of women. They are all winners. >They all do things that can be considered traditionally "male >games". Yet they are very feminine. I don't see where being >feminine means being subservient or vice-versa. Perhaps I'm working >with the wrong definition. Define "feminine". (Not a flame; but I detect flames over the horizon about "Heinlein women" and suchlike.) I also have some Bad News for those who fight about what is feminism and what isn't and what is male chauvinist and etc.; while everyone's busy trying to say that "women can have/do/want anything men do", few have hit the opposite side. In particular: it isn't only women that want to settle down and have kids, and the "woman leans on man for support" is only one side of an equation that balances. Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, OH 44060 +01 216 255 1080 {decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 87 03:04:02 GMT From: princeton!dartvax!fflewder@RUTGERS.EDU (Elric) Subject: Re: LOTR vs. the Silmarillion I read the Silmaril when in 7th grade, and understood not a word. Then, years later I was given _Unfinished Tales_ because I was in a period of intense Tolkien-study.. I was even translating the elven runes to our alphabet (:-). Had reread the Silmaril and understood it much more, but Unfinished just laid EVERYTHING out in the clearest possible way. Nearly all the questions I'd been arguing about among my fellow 'Tolkien-historians' (our phrase) were answered. In a way I was very disappointed. heh.. "be careful for what you wish for you may surely get it.." Is the _Book_ as good as Tales? I loved the latter but fell away from Tolkien before getting to the Book.. fflewder@dartmouth.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 28 May 87 0829-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #258 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 28 May 87 0829-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #258 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 28 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 258 Today's Topics: Books - Chandler & Ellison (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 May 87 13:56 CDT From: (RICH) Subject: CHANDLER NOVEL LIST Sorry if this has already been covered, but I'm one of the poor people who only get SF-LOVERS as a digest (on BITNET) about a week behind the rest of the civilized universe. A. Bertram Chandler has been (I'm sorry to hear he has past on) one of my favorite authors for several years. Most of my collection is still in boxes (grad. school keeps one moving about the country on a regular basis), so this is not a complete listing by any means. Title copyright date type of story (protagonist) Zoological Specimen 1956 Novella (non-Grimes) Catch the Starwinds 1969 Novel (non-Grimes) The Rim Gods 1968 Novel (Grimes) The Dark Dimensions 1971 Novel (Grimes) The Inheritors 1972 Novel (Grimes) The Gateway to Never 1972 Novel (Grimes) The Big Black Mark 1975 Novel (Grimes) The Broken Cycle 1979 Novel (Grimes) The Far Traveler 1979 Novel (Grimes) Star Loot 1980 Novel (Grimes) The Anarch Lords 1981 Novel (Grimes) The Way Back ???? ? Star Courier ???? Novel (Grimes) To Keep the Ship ???? Novel (Grimes) The missing dates are novels I've read, but can not find right now. So I remember the type of book, but not when it came out. He also had another story line started, dealing in the same settings as the Grimes novels (even mentioning Grimes in one story), but with a different set of characters. To try and give you a short introduction to the type of author Chandler was here is the dedication to "THE ANARCH LORDS": "For Vice-Admiral William Bligh R.N., one-time commanding Officer of the H.M.S. Bounty, one-time Governor of New South Wales, with belated apologies for the participation of an ancestral Grimes in the Rum Rebellion of 1808 A.D." Here is the bio. from my copy of "THE INHERITORS" (1972): "A. Bertram Chandler, who is both a Fellow of the British Interplanetary Society and the Chief Officer of an Australian coastal steamer, writes of himself: 'I have always been an avid reader of science-fiction and have always wanted to write. Until in possession of my Master's Certificate, I always felt that my spare time should be devoted to study rather than to writing. My first visit to New York was after the entry of the U.S. into the war. Shortly after, having passed for Master, I had no excuse for not writing, and I a regular contributor to the magazines in the field. 'After the war I continued writing, but dropped out after promotion to Chief Officer. After my emigration to Australia, I was bullied by my second wife into taking up the pen again, and became once again a prolific writer of short stories. Finally, I felt the time was ripe for full-length novels. I have dropped shorter pieces feeling that they gave insufficient scope for character development. I think that science-fiction and fantasy are ideal vehicles for putting over essential truths.'" I shall miss Grimes. He was a good man to have around when the universe was stretched a little out of shape. Rich Babowicz BABOWICZ@TAMAGEN.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 04:40:54 GMT From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) Subject: Last Dangerous Visions >Speaking of semi-mythical Ellison, does anyone out there know the >story on the "Last Dangerous Visions" anthology? It was originally >supposed to come out years ago, (around 1980, I think), but got >held up by something. Then about six months ago, I saw a note in >SF Chronicle claiming that it was going to be forthcoming very >soon, and nothing since. Anybody got the scoop? Once again, according to Ellison (in concert in Toronto one snowy Feb. eve) "When its !@%#&$*%&$%$& ready, and I'm $#@$#$%#% ready to release it" Translation: Don't hold your breath, it looks like that one may be a while yet. Gideon Sheps gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 01:07:20 GMT From: galloway@venera.isi.edu (Tom Galloway) Subject: Many things about Harlan Ellison Hmm, lots of different discussions about Harlan seem to be going on. Taking them one by one: Harlan writing an episode of Max Headroom: I tend to doubt this one, since Max has completed its planned 6 episode run, and to my knowledge has yet to be renewed for next year (with the exception of the opening episode and the episode that ran after Max appeared on the cover of Newsweek (or was it Time?), the ratings had the show in a mid-40s position out of approx 70 shows, so renewal is by no means certain). However, Harlan is/was writing a 2 hour pilot for a TV series for Roger Corman. I've been asked not to give any more details though. Also, Harlan won another (his fourth, I believe) Writers Guild of America award for his script for Paladin of the Lost Hour. Harlan Ellison Record Collection: I haven't heard anything about them discouraging new members; if there's interest, I can check and find out. They issued a new Rabbit Hole (newsletter) about Sept/Oct of last year, but nothing since that I know of. The latest record was Harlan reading On The Downhill Side, and I believe the next is to be Paladin of The Lost Hour. In addition to offering the Kadak cassette, one selection is On The Road with Harlan, featuring bits from his college lectures including the full story of sending the dead gopher by fourth class mail. The Last Dangerous Visions: I'll admit it; I'm the one Shoshanna was writing about when she wrote about a friend seeing the manuscripts for this. They do exist! Really! I've seen them on Harlan's bannister with my own eyes! I even almost knocked a few over! :-). Seriously, the books (it's up to 4 or 5 hardcover volumes now) have not been turned in. I'm sure that when they get turned in, Harlan will announce it on Hour 25, and I'll pass it on. But the impression I get is don't hold your breath; it won't be soon (although I could also see it happening this year, but I'm not willing to put money on it). The Essential Ellison: After many delays, this 1000+ page hardcover from Nemo Press should be out at any moment. The corrected proofs were returned to Nemo about 6 weeks ago (source: Gil Lamont, Harlan's proofreader/copy editor). Blood's A Rover: This was announced back in '80/'81 and a cover was commissioned. It was to include A Boy and His Dog, Eggsucker, and another story who's title I forget. Eggsucker, and I believe the other story, appeared about that time in a book/magazine called Ariel. A new character, a female who's tougher than Vic, I believe called Spike, was introduced. I strongly doubt that the reason that it did not appear was the already posted notion of Harlan taking the advance in order to balance the scales with Ace Books. Note that since then, in I believe '83-'84, Ace republished about 13 older books by Harlan. This would indicate that the company and Harlan were on speaking/business terms since the initial announcement of Blood, so the book would have been published then if it were completed. The Terminator: I have vague memories of hearing that the writer or director of the movie had in some way admitted using Harlan's stuff in some manner (I haven't seen the movie). However, as written, these are vague memories. A key point is that the settlement does not allow either Harlan or the studio/other principals to discuss the settlement or case. So it's very hard to get and transmit accurate info. However, I tend to believe that there was plagiarism for two reasons. First, the settlement was not just financial, but included the added credit line on the videocassette version. I can believe a studio settling out of court for money even if they don't think that the case against them is that strong, but the addition of that credit line strikes me as a clear indication that they admit something wrong was done. Without Harlan having a *very* strong case, I can't see them adding a credit line instead of fighting it in court, since that, more than the money, is equivalent to admitting that there was use of Harlan's ideas. The second point is that while Harlan is very protective against people ripping him off, my opinion of him both from his writing and personal contact is that he is not the type of person who would bring a frivolous lawsuit. Consider that the only two suits he has brought, to my knowledge, were the clear case of the Brillo plagiarism for Future Cop, and the Terminator one. It's not like he's suing someone every month/year now is it? The Kyba War Stories: At some point in the future, Comico will issue a graphic novel adapting Harlan's Earth-Kyba War stories, most of which were written back in the 50s. These will be adapted by Ken Stearcy. Finally, the latest Comics Buyer's Guide announced that a planned series of Ellison reissues, including the first hardcover printings of many of his early books, with covers to be done by Dave Stevens [The Rocketeer] has been cancelled due to a breakdown of the planned distribution system, which was to be different from standard distribution in some unspecified manner. tyg ------------------------------ Date: Mon 18 May 87 10:48:24-PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Terminator & Ellison's suit As I recall from articles published at the time, one of the facts that came to light in Harlan Ellison's suit was an interview with James Cameron in which he mentioned one of the Outer Limits episodes in question and described it as an influence on his ideas for Terminator. So at minimum we have an admission by the screenwriter/director that he was more than familiar with the work he was alleged to have plagiarized. ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 19:53:05 GMT From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Terminator Summary Although Tom Galloway came very close to making the definitive statement on the Harlan Ellison/Terminator case, I think I will summarize what I know about it. Be warned, however. I have neither seen nor read "Soldier" in any form, and thus my statements about it are hearsay. I have seen "Demon with a Glass Hand", and have read Marshall Roger's excellent graphic novel (aka "comic book") interpretation of the screenplay. Harlan Ellison felt that James Cameron's movie _The Terminator_ borrowed heavily from his own _Outer Limits_ episodes "Soldier" and "Demon with a Glass Hand", both of which involved wars being fought through time. "Soldier" involves two soldiers from the future coming into the past; "Demon" involves a robot from the future, and the fate of the entire human race. None of these ideas is completely original with Ellison, of course, but the particular staging of the stories was, and Ellison felt that the similarities between the opening sequence of "Soldier" and the opening sequence of _The Terminator_ went beyond the merely coincidental. There were other similarities as well, most notably the effect of peeling back the skin to reveal a robot organ. He approached 20th Century Fox about the problems, and (apparently) suggested that if they would merely credit him as an inspiration for the film, he would be satisfied. However, it was clear that Ellison was not afraid to resort to legal action if necessary. They were unwilling to cooperate, though, until Cameron admited that he had indeed seen and admired the_Outer Limits_ episodes in question. When this was revealed, Fox's main legal consul announced that he would not fight the case, and that if he were pressured by Fox into doing so, he would resign and declare himself a "friend of the court" on behalf of Mr. Ellison. 20th Century Fox gave in to Mr. Ellison's demands; thus, in every videotape print of _The Terminator_, there is a credit line citing Ellison's work as an inspiration. (This credit is very poorly done--it is in a different type face than the rest of the credits and is blurry to boot.) Ellison also received approximately $62,500 in settlement, although I'm not sure exactly where this was introduced into the proceedings. In a recent "Harlan Ellison's Watching" column (his regular film-review column in _The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction_), he said something to the effect of "Damn if _Aliens_ isn't a good film. That Cameron has real talent." This strongly indicates that the settlement was amicable and that nowhere along the line did Cameron tell Ellison to stuff his suit up his pazoo, as has been intimiated by others on the net. Ellison is not heavily into forgiveness. I personally consider _The Terminator_ one of the very best SF films, and the second best involving time travel (with the best being Nick Meyer's _Time After Time_, which is "Soldier" from another angle). Schwarzenegger gives a very memorable performance as a completely emotionless robot killer from the future, a very difficult role for the normally cheerful and gregarious man. Kevin J. Maroney ...!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 87 10:12:53 PDT From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa Subject: Harlan on tape Concerning tapes of Ellison: I was at a convention in Seattle in 1976 (or so) where Harlan read "How's the Nightlife on Cassalda." Needless to say, there were a lot of people splitting their gut that day (and I had just given blood for my first time at Heinlein's request). There was a small company there recording the reading and selling cassette tapes for some paltry sum (well, it was too much for me to buy one then, but I'm sure it was under $10). Unfortunately, I didn't save their address or any of that stuff, but then what are the odds that they are still in the same location after 10 years? The whole point of this is that Jean Marie Diaz should keep looking, particularly at conventions, where these people or their descendants would be hanging out. I _know_ that there was once a recording made of Harlan reading "How's the Night Life on Casalda," so there _must_ still be some tapes in existence. I also know that it is well worth the effort. As hard as I try, I cannot duplicate the tone that Harlan read it with. Jon pugh@nmfecc.arpa National Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory PO Box 5509 L-561 Livermore, California 94550 (415) 423-4239 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 87 09:30 EDT From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Ellison >>Obviously since the case was settled out of court to Harlan's >>satisfaction, the studio must have considered themselves guilty! > >No!!! Why must an out of court settlement be regarded as an >admission of guilt? Granted, you or I might feel that it was >enough of a matter of principal to fight it all the way (as Harlan >probably did). But a major motion picture studio deals mostly in >ECONOMIC terms. Might you think that the whole court battle, along >with negative publicity, might have cost them more in terms of $$ >than they could hope to recoup? Since they were the defendants, >even being found not guilty wouldn't have made them any money... I disagree. The reputation of a studio is of far more intrinsic value to them than the small percentage of lost profit that might have to be paid out. After all, how will this effect the authors of future marketable scripts when it comes time to decide who to peddle them to? Will their first choice be a studio that adopts the attitude that plagiarism is permissable, as long as the person being plagiarised doesn't make a fuss? Would YOU trust such an organization to honestly share its profits, including those generated by merchandising and overseas distribution of a film (almost impossible for an author to keep track of). I think that if the studio thought they had a prayer of winning, they would not have settled out of court. Joseph St.Lawrence Yale University BITNET: SAINT@YALEADS.BITNET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 28 May 87 0847-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #259 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 28 May 87 0847-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #259 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 28 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 259 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU From: (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? Date: 24 May 87 21:13:07 GMT elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes: >_Friday_? Sexist? What kind of drugs are you on? This is the ONLY >Heinlein novel with a female protagonist who's semi-female and not >just some sex object for all the men to use as a lust-pillow. Of >course, the fact that she can break the arms off of "normal" people >takes away from that, a bit, but she isn't just the usual "man in >woman's dress" sort of gal that you'd expect from Heinlein. ... As near as I can tell (after getting chewed out by a female acquaintance after recommending "Friday"), what they object to is that at the end Friday settles down and raises kids. _Because she is a female_ this is not "politically correct". (Note to any readers who wish to flame me for this: Don't bother, _anything_ other than _reasoned_ arguments as to why "Friday" is sexist will be cheerfully routed to /dev/null.) Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ From: k@eddie.mit.edu (Kathy Wienhold) Subject: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL (One More Time) Date: 26 May 87 09:45:35 GMT SIASL = "Stranger in a Strange Land" I got a number of replies regarding my original posting, and would like to clear up a number of points regarding two separate, but interlocking issues: 1) Why I hate Heinlein (in general), and 2) Why I absolutely *detested* SIASL. WHY I HATE HEINLEIN (IN GENERAL): Everything I have read by Heinlein (which is really quite a lot - I've given him the benefit of the doubt much more than *any* other author (considering how much I detest *everything* I've read by him, and considering just how long it takes me to "cool down" afterwards and be able to discuss a book rationally)) has the following characteristics: 1. Characterizations (irregardless of gender) are wooden, and the plot drives what little character development there is, rather than the other way around (or even some mixture thereof). What I mean is that characters seem to do things because the plot requires it, and any character development seems like incidental justification, rather than motivating force. 2. *Most* female characters are there as "window dressing". They exist as mere "plot devices", instead of living, breathing individuals. This is really an extension of the first point, but the problem is soooo (!!!) much worse with his female characters that it merits a point all its own. 3. Heinlein just plain doesn't write well. In my opinion, the best thing he could do would be to take his plots, and hand them over to someone who can. REGARDING SIASL & HOMOPHOBIA IN PARTICULAR: Several people implied that SIASL is disliked by people who are intolerant, especially regarding sex & sexual practices; I'm sure this is true. However, it is also disliked by people (such as myself), who are tolerant in these respects. The reasons why these individuals (myself among them) don't like the book are probably as numerous as the people themselves. Aside from the other problems with Heinlein's writing which I enumerated above, one of the main reasons *I* mentioned for not liking the book is Heinlein's squeamish attitude in discussing homophobia. The rest of the discussion centered around trying to rebut this point. People defending Heinlein & the quote from SIASL on several basic premises, which I would like to reply to one at a time (pardon me for not attributing from specific posters where appropriate - they all got a bit muddled in compiling this): 1. The quote comes from Jill (a character), not from Heinlein. Actually, I don't give a *&#@$% what Heinlein *thinks*, the question is, "what does he *write*?", particularly in SIASL (so, bringing up other works is a bit irrelevant as to what makes SIASL offensive). 2. The quote comes from Jill, not from Mike or Jubal (ostensibly the philosophical "mouthpieces" of the work). This explanation I might buy, except for the fact that Mike goes along with her, in changing his appearance to be less attractive to androgynous types. We also never see Mike actually in a homosexual relationship, or even in a homosexual encounter in a group sex situation. Within the general context and style of the book, I just couldn't buy it. If you can, I think it's an irreconcilable difference in interpretation. 3. Mike does not understand the prevailing cultural reaction to homosexuality and Jill is concerned that she was failing in her attempt to socialize Mike because he didn't see a distinction between homo/hetro-sexuality. Jill decides that she has nothing to worry about, because all his contacts have been conditioned to be homophobic, and the exceptions have been so traumatized by society that Mike will probably "grok a wrongness" in them... so nothing to worry about. This makes a bit more sense, but I can't buy it for the same reasons as listed immediately above. 4. If an author wants us to look at something in a new light then he must also remind us of how we look at it now. Setting up a character with one opinion and having that character's ideas shot down is an effective way do do so. We identify with Jill's notion...(Ya, thats right, thats how he'd handle it..) then once we are comfortable that Mike will react like we think he should we too get shocked out of our narrow minds when he doesn't. The problem with this is that Jill's homophobia is never effectively "shot down" by Mike. This argument falls flat on its face. The most charitable thing I can say about Heinlein is to quote someone (quoting someone else about Heinlein & sexism), "the poor man tries, but he just doesn't have a hint." Kay k@mit-eddie.UUCP kay@MIT-XX.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 00:16:35 GMT From: howard@pioneer.arpa (Lauri Howard) Subject: Re: Heinlein I just finished reading _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ for the first time. I was giving Heinlein one last chance and haven't yet decided if I'll give him another last chance or not. Anyway, I was surprised there wasn't open, even encouraged, homosexuality among the predominately male loonies. I'm not talking about group marriages or line marriages or any other arrangements described where there was >1 male partner (sure Mannie and Greg and Stu may have slept to- gether as part of their marriage arrangement, who knows). I'm talking about purely gay group marriages (or whatever). It seems to me natural, fulfilling homosexual relationships, as well as homosexual rapes, would be much more common on Heinlein's Luna than was described in the book. Lauri Howard howard@ames-pioneer.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 87 15:29:10 GMT From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes: >As near as I can tell (after getting chewed out by a female >acquaintance after recommending "Friday"), what they object to is >that at the end Friday settles down and raises kids. _Because she >is a female_ this is not "politically correct". It's been a while since I read FRIDAY, and I have forgotten much (it was the last Heinlein I read, and probably will remain so; I don't hate him, I just haven't much liked his later (post-NUMBER OF THE BEAST) work.) Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind, and throat, is the scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which Friday, the main character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather enjoys the experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it' theory), and comments to herself that while the technique of rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B isn't bad at all. This is a repulsive attitude toward rape, which is NOT enjoyable. I am not flaming Heinlein the man, or his works, or even FRIDAY as a whole (since I don't remember enough of it to do so). But this particular episode is revolting. (Note: there is, of course, a possibility that I am completely misremembering the event in question, much as a recent poster on Narnia flamed C. S. Lewis for damning Susan, when she explicitly wasn't killed in the train crash at all. If so, I am sure people will tell me so in friendly, helpful tones :-) ) Shoshanna Green ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 05:09:56 GMT From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL (One More Time) Before I get busy disagreeing with you, I'd like to compliment you for actually addressing the subject of Heinlein the writer, and the books he writes. Seems like almost everyone else is too busy using RAH as a whipping boy for their pet political peeves to actually say anything about what he *writes*. k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes: >WHY I HATE HEINLEIN (IN GENERAL): >1. Characterizations (irregardless of gender) are wooden, and the >plot drives what little character development there is, rather than >the other way around (or even some mixture thereof). What I mean >is that characters seem to do things because the plot requires it, >and any character development seems like incidental justification, >rather than motivating force. We at least partly agree. Characterization is not a really strong suit for RAH. He tends to draw from a rather limited cast of characters that we see appearing over and over in his books. His best characters have generally come from his juveniles, where the plot always centers on the process of the growth from child to man (occasionally, child to woman, but males predominate). His teenage protagonists sometimes do have at least somewhat interesting personalities, which are developed and enriched as the story unfolds. My prime disagreement, here, is the idea that his characters are props for his plots. If anything, his plots are typically even weaker than his characters. The real problems are that he lets his characters become mere vehicles for expressing maverick social notions, and that he only seems to know how to write about a few sorts of people. Re the first point, too many characters just busy themselves *talking* about their ideas when, ideally, the story should show those ideas in action. RAH attempts this, but not with great success. For example, one of the main defenses his characters make in STARSHIP TROOPERS, when explaining and defending how their society is run, is the pragmatic defense: it works. Well, that's a pure cheat; of *course* it works, it's a *novel*, and RAH wrote it. If he wants it to look like it's working, then it will. I'd have liked to see more of a challenge to that society's notions built into the plot, characters that *didn't* find it so ideal and wholesome. The second point: RAH can portray rebels, he can portray cynical and curmudgeonly old men, airheaded idiots, and a very few other types. And that's all. No REAL villains - try and find a really evil character in his books, as opposed to the merely misguided. No intuitive, artistic type protagonists; odd from a man who himself makes a living as an artist, but there it is. And the biggest lack of all: no characters who aren't either bad guys or good guys, no characters who are sometimes on the side of the angels, and sometimes not. >2. *Most* female characters are there as "window dressing". They >exist as mere "plot devices", instead of living, breathing >individuals. This is really an extension of the first point, but >the problem is soooo (!!!) much worse with his female characters >that it merits a point all its own. Simply, flatly untrue. RAH's female characters are, if anything, a bit *better* than the males, on average. Not in SIASL, it's true, but many of his books have fine female characters. THE STAR BEAST (Betty Sorenson) comes to mind, as does HAVE SPACE SUIT - WILL TRAVEL (Peewee), FRIDAY, "The Unpleasant Profession Of Jonathan Hoag" (Cynthia Randall), "Delilah and the Space Rigger" (G. Brooks McNye), GLORY ROAD (Star), THE PUPPET MASTERS (Mary/Allucquere), and many more. These are strong, intelligent and interesting women. What they usually are not, is politically correct. For one thing, they all, Friday excepted, predate the modern incarnation of feminism; for another, I'd say that "politically correct" is almost certainly a term RAH would only speak with a curled lip. What seems to bug many feminists most about RAH's women is their dedication to home and family as their ultimate purpose in life. This seems to run counter to feminist efforts to give women an equal chance in the workplace. But does it, really? If you look in the same books where these kinder & kuche women live, you will find the *male* characters have the same ideals! Look, for instance, at Lazarus Long, perhaps *the* archetypal Heinlein Man, in TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE. Love is what he's looking for, love is what he needs. Happiness consists of surrounding himself with family, and especially children. One may agree or disagree with RAH about the importance of family, home and children, but I don't think you can say he leaves this side of life to just the women. >3. Heinlein just plain doesn't write well. In my opinion, the >best thing he could do would be to take his plots, and hand them >over to someone who can. Yes and no. RAH is my favorite SF writer, but I'd never say he was the *best* SF writer. His approach to writing, his style, is almost unbearably quirky, especially in some books, where he seems to totally lose control. Particularly in the last 30 years or so, when plot has seemed to become so completely subordinate to polemics, and to lose focus as they gained in page-count, these annoyances have become more and more frequent. Ah, but the things he does *right*! Such lived-in, believeable futures; such ability to make the unfamiliar homey, with such economy of description; his understanding that unfamiliar machinery is best captured by showing it in operation, not describing what it looks like. And his idealism, his unblushing support for nobility and heroism, for doing the right thing, no matter the cost. If you've found yourself throwing far too many RAH novels against the wall in disgust, it might still be worthwhile to look at some of his earlier work: THE DOOR INTO SUMMER; WALDO & MAGIC, INC.; THE STAR BEAST; HAVE SPACE SUIT - WILL TRAVEL; THE GREEN HILLS OF EARTH; and that's just a few of the best. >REGARDING SIASL & HOMOPHOBIA IN PARTICULAR: >Aside from the other problems with Heinlein's writing which I >enumerated above, one of the main reasons *I* mentioned for not >liking the book is Heinlein's squeamish attitude in discussing >homophobia. The rest of the discussion centered around trying to >rebut this point. > >People defending Heinlein & the quote from SIASL on several basic >premises, which I would like to reply to one at a time (pardon me >for not attributing from specific posters where appropriate - they >all got a bit muddled in compiling this): I'm not going to deal with the points you raised, but I'd like to mention again a point *I* made about this, which you failed to respond to: when the book was written. It was published in 1961, and mostly written during the 50s. And RAH was himself born in 1907, two to three generations before most of us. In that context, is the attitude toward homosexuality implied in SIASL all that unenlightened? What books from that time are you comparing it to? What was *your* opinion of homosexuality in 1959? And what has RAH'S attitude toward it been in his more recent novels? Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 28 May 87 0907-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #260 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 28 May 87 0907-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #260 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 28 May 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 260 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Jones & Lem & Lewis (5 msgs) & Requests (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 May 1987 15:13 PDT From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's Subject: Mega-ology moss!hropus!prc@RUTGERS.EDU (pete clark) lists a sequence of Asimov books that form a series: >I,Robot >The Caves of Steel >The Naked Sun >The Robots of Dawn >Robots and Empire >A Pebble in the Sky >The Currents of Space >The Stars Like Dust >Foundation >Foundation and Empire >Second Foundation >Foundation's Edge >would you believe the name of the last book has leaked out of my > head..sorry The list has *TWO* stories missing: The End of Eternity -- describes an alternative scenario and what happened to it. (It appears briefly as a myth in Foundation's EDge?) Foundation and Earth-- Right at the end. You might also make an interesting comparison with two obscure stories that are set in a similar Galatic Empire setting but populated by many different intelligent species. All I recall about them is the central character was a small hairy mathematical psychologist and that they are not to be treated seriously.(:-)). They are also, undoubtedly sexist (*picks up firehose and extinguisher*) so you may well prefer not to contaminate yourself with them. ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 08:53 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Cc: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Fire and Hemlock by Diana Wynne Jones Wayne, Fire & Hemlock takes two folk motifs, Thomas the Rhymer, and TamLin, and combines elements of each into this novel, along with a young woman's adolescence problemset. She has a couple of parents who have typical human flaws, and her problems in dealing with that is woven in to the conflicts. There is also her "private" world, which she's not certain exists. I really enjoyed it, and think it's better than Charmed Lives, Dogsbody, or the Spell Coat, although that last was pretty interesting. In the songs about them, both of these men are taken from their own world & time by the Queen of Faerie. *Tam Lin* meets a mortal woman, falls in love (and renders her pregnant), and tells her how to wrest him from the Queen's grasp, which she does, to the wrath of the Queen. *Thomas the Rhymer* seems to enjoy his time in Faerie a lot more, and leaves only when the Queen returns him to his own world. They seem to have been quite happy to me, and part on a pleasant note, except that Thomas is given a tongue that can never lie, as token of his time in Faerie. Who's the publisher of Archer's Goon? Paper or cloth? I'm looking forward to it. FYI: *Dahlov Ipcar* expands Tam Lin in one novel, and the song Elf-Call in another. I have the hardest time finding thon's books, and I couldn't tell you what nationality or gender the author is. Anybody help me there? There seems to be a small genre that expands the story found in a well-known folksong (as in a Childe ballad). I really enjoy this sort of book. Marina Fournier Arpa: ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 87 04:26:11 GMT From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu Subject: Stanislaw Lem _Fiasco_ Dust-jacket level spoilers (and review): Lemmings of the world should be overjoyed. _Fiasco_ has just come out, and it is possibly Lem's best novel. It is both hard sci-fi adventure and philosophical contemplation. The number of themes and concerns that he touches upon is dizzying: the morality of resurrection and triage, the futility of AI, the prospect of an unstoppable yet harmless arms race, the ineffability of the truly alien, the nature of man's identity, the loneliness of the technologically advanced in a silent galaxy--and much much more. And the book delivers its strong moral perfectly. _Fiasco_ is a first contact novel with vengeance and warning. None of the usual cliches and rules apply, as the exploratory crew (and perhaps some readers) discover to their horror, exasperation, and complete frus- tration. They didn't come hundreds of light-years in order to be so blatantly ignored, goddammit. The Quintans--the aliens in the story-- behave in ways that make no "sense". The crew puts patterns--all logical, and all too human--on what they see. Lem plays masterfully with this mystery. Are the crew's actions rational? Or have they, along with the on-board superdupercomputer (of the "last" generation), gone mad? Do such words actually mean anything here? As if a reflection on this very point, the practice of psychiatry in the book had long abandoned most terminology that we would recognize. From the technophile angle, the book is peppered with beautiful descrip- tions of all sorts, ranging from bioengineering to planetary cavitation to black hole gravity wave lasers. All in all, a powerful, exciting, and enjoyable read. I rate it [*****]. I confess to a strong bias, of course. The book brings together themes that have running through his entire ouvre. Lemmings will recognize them instantly--perhaps other readers will be at a loss. I can't tell. Matthew P Wiener Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!brahms!weemba ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 87 14:11:32 EDT From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Narnia, yet again A short reply to Alastair Milne's letter defending C.S. Lewis's The Last Battle against the charge of being a heavy-handed Christian allegory: I agree that the other six books in this series can be read without acknowledging the allegory, but in The Last Battle it goes beyond allegory to just plain meanness. There is a section when the old kings and queens of Narnia show up again (i.e., they've been killed in a train wreck and go to "Heaven," or Narnia) - Lucy and her brothers, and Diggory and Polly from The Magician's Nephew. A character asks why Lucy's sister Susan is not with them, and King Peter replies (I'm paraphrasing) "Our sister is no longer a friend of Narnia." Now, it is impossible to tell from the context whether Susan survived the train wreck or if she died as well. If she *did* die, as I assumed at age 12 when I first read the book, then her se absence can mean only that Susan turned against Narnia and is thus damned. If that is not what Lewis meant, he should have been much clearer. As it was, I have not picked up a Narnia book from that day to this; I cannot tolerate an author who uses his work to promulgate his theology to the point where he will damn a character in a children's book simply to make a point. That is incredibly mean, petty and not particularly Christian, more suited to John Calvin than a book for young children. Lisa Evans Malden, Massachusetts ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 87 22:35:49 GMT From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen) Subject: Re: Narnia, yet again Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes: > A short reply to Alastair Milne's letter defending C.S. Lewis's >The Last Battle against the charge of being a heavy-handed >Christian allegory: I agree that the other six books in this series >can be read without acknowledging the allegory, but in The Last >Battle it goes beyond allegory to just plain meanness. There is a >section when the old kings and queens of Narnia show up again >(i.e., they've been killed in a train wreck and go to "Heaven," or >Narnia) - Lucy and her brothers, and Diggory and Polly from The >Magician's Nephew. A character asks why Lucy's sister Susan is not >with them, and King Peter replies (I'm paraphrasing) "Our sister is >no longer a friend of Narnia." Now, it is impossible to tell from >the context whether Susan survived the train wreck or if she died >as well. If she *did* die, as I assumed at age 12 when I first >read the book, then her se absence can mean only that Susan turned >against Narnia and is thus damned. If that is not what Lewis >meant, he should have been much clearer. As it was, I have not >picked up a Narnia book from that day to this; I cannot tolerate an >author who uses his work to promulgate his theology to the point >where he will damn a character in a children's book simply to make >a point. That is incredibly mean, petty and not particularly >Christian, more suited to John Calvin than a book for young >children. A few comments. First, Susan did _not_ die in the wreck. The train trip was made by the friends of Narnia on behalf of Narnia, and that leaves Susan out. Lewis is quite explicit on the question of who died in the wreck: "And the day after that was the day Pole [Jill] and I [Eustace] had to go back to school- we're the only two who are still at school and we're at the same one. So Peter and Edmund were to meet us at a place on the way down to school and hand over the Rings. It had to be us two who were to go to Narnia, you see, because the older ones couldn't come again. So we got into the train- that's kind of thing people travel in in our world: a lot of wagons chained together- and the Professor and Aunt Polly and Lucy came with us." This train collided with the train carrying Peter and Edmund to their meeting point. Second, Lewis is very reluctant to rule out the possibility of salvation for anyone, however unpromising they might appear. The cases of Edmund and Eustace come to mind immediately, but _The_Last_Battle_ offers two others: Emeth the enemy warrior, and one of the stubborn dwarves: Eustace even recognized one of those very Dwarfs who had helped to shoot the Horses. But he had no time to wonder about that sort of thing (and anyway it was no business of his)... Susan has a whole lifetime to achieve Heaven. On the other hand, she does seem to be in real danger. Lewis believes that moral choices are a very serious business, even those that seem small. He has never pulled his punches on this issue. Whether all this is Christian or un-Christian, I, as a non-Christian will not presume to say. Certainly there is much stronger stuff in the Christian literature; Dante comes to mind. That it is unsuitable for children, I dispute. I had no trouble with it as a nine or ten year old. It seems unfortunate that some people boycott books they would otherwise enjoy on ideological grounds. The recent discussion of anti-feminism in Tolkien comes to mind in this connection. There is so little really good literature in the world that I hate to hear of people subjecting that little to ideological litmus tests. Michael Larsen ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 87 01:49:01 GMT From: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu (The Cute Cuddle Creature) Subject: Re: Narnia, yet again From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu > A short reply to Alastair Milne's letter defending C.S. Lewis's >The Last Battle against the charge of being a heavy-handed >Christian allegory: [...] A character asks why Lucy's sister Susan >is not with them, and King Peter replies (I'm paraphrasing) "Our >sister is no longer a friend of Narnia." Now, it is impossible to >tell from the context whether Susan survived the train wreck or if >she died as well. If she *did* die, as I assumed at age 12 when I >first read the book, then her absence can mean only that Susan >turned against Narnia and is thus damned. If that is not what >Lewis meant, he should have been much clearer. [...Won't read an >author's works] where he will damn a character in a children's book >simply to make a point. That is incredibly mean, petty and not >particularly Christian, more suited to John Calvin than a book for >young children. It's been a while, but as I remember, Susan eventually "grew up" and refused to play those 'silly old games' that they used to 'play' when they were children, hiding in the wardrobe and 'pretending' they were in another land (Narnia). If posting on this persists, I'll buy a set and quote you chapter and verse. Michael A. Justice BITNet: cscj0ac@bostonu CSNET: boreas%bucsb@bu-cs UUCP: ....!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas boreas@bucsb.UUCP ARPA: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 87 14:34:35 GMT From: khudson@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (Urlord) Subject: Re: Narnia, yet again From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu > A short reply to Alastair Milne's letter defending C.S. Lewis's >The Last Battle against the charge of being a heavy-handed >Christian allegory: ... from The Magician's Nephew. A character >asks why Lucy's sister Susan is not with them, and King Peter >replies (I'm paraphrasing) "Our sister is no longer a friend of >Narnia." Now, it is impossible to tell from the context whether >Susan survived the train wreck or if she died as well. If she >*did* die, as I assumed at age 12 when I first read the book, > then her se absence can mean only that Susan turned against >Narnia and is thus damned. If that is not what Lewis meant, he >should have been much clearer. As it I seem to remember that they did mention that she "grew up" and "no longer believed" in the world of Narnia. I don't remember where or when, (maybe it was in one of the earlier books) but I seemed to get that impression. Kevin Hudson UUCP: khudson@hawk.CS.Ulowell.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 87 16:37:28 GMT From: pete@tcom.stc.co.uk (Peter Kendell) Subject: Re: Narnia, yet again mjlarsen@phoenix.UUCP (Michael J. Larsen) writes: >This train collided with the train carrying Peter and Edmund to their >meeting point. And their parents as well. They see them on one of the lands adjoining the Heavenly Narnia. One of the things that appeals to me about the Narnia books is how often the worst thing possible does happen. Aslan *is* killed, Eustace and Jill do fail to recognise the elderly Caspian (in The Silver Chair), Narnia *is* overrun by the Calormenes. It can be a tough place! And for an illustration of Lewis's view on moral choice, see Perelandra where the entire burden of saving the Green Lady from corruption rests on Ransom. One point about Susan, though. Given that the children love their sister, could Heaven be perfect without her? And, given that the time flows differently between the worlds why should not a Susan who {died, will die} aged 80ish in, say, 2010, be waiting for them in the late 40's in Heaven? Assuming she {goes, went} there of course... Peter Kendell pete@tcom.stc.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 87 00:30 EDT From: Subject: title/author request folks, I have been reading this for a while now, and see that it is often helpful in locating titles of books which have been forgotten. Hopefully it will be again. How about a book in which the main character is transported to another dimension through an intergalactic travel-agency's goof, then has to try to return on his own...I can't remember much more, except that the copy I was reading had a predominantly red cover...it's probably rather old given that it was from my father's collection, and I started it some 7 years ago (and never finished it...I lost it too soon) Thanks VERY much to anyone who can supply the title &/or author. ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 14:21:03 GMT From: harvard!linus!bs@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert D. Silverman) Subject: Book Author/Title Request I am lookig for the Title and Author of a book I read a long time ago and only vaguely remember: Earth sends an agent to another planet, inhabited by people more or less human. These people have a mind control capability and frequently indulge in mental combat among themselves for control of others. They are ranked in society by the number of people they control with 80 being the highest permitted. The Earth agent is assigned a moderately powerful protector (a 40?) while conducting his investigations. The problem: disappearances of large numbers of humans. It is suspected that they were abducted and being used for forced labor on the mind control planet. Does this ring any bells??? Bob Silverman ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 1 Jun 87 0915-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #261 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Jun 87 0915-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #261 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 261 Today's Topics: Books - Codex Seraphinianus (3 msgs) & More on Book Ban (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 May 87 17:13:41 EDT From: William Ingogly To: ALMSA-1.ARPA!wmartin%rutgers@relay.cs.net Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus Thanks loads for all the information on the Codex; I plan on ordering it as soon as I get home! It is indeed amazing that the book has been remaindered without generating any discussion...I'm especially surprised that NO ONE has reviewed it in an SF magazine (unless it was reviewed in some obscure fanzine). Bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 87 15:09:11 cdt From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Cc: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus In response to some mailed requests, and Bill Ingogly's posting that appeared in SF-L Digest V12 #233: The Publishers Central Bureau stock # for Codex Seraphinianus is 475146. (By the way, the original copyright date was 1981, and the Abbeville Press edition is dated 1983.) Publishers Central Bureau One Champion Avenue Avenel, New Jersey 07131 (I hadn't put this info in the original posting because: 1) The PCB address had just recently shown up on the list in the context of a Prisoner video source. 2) Doesn't *everybody* already get these catalogs?!?! :-) I just spent several lunchtimes in the St. Louis Public Library looking for more info on this book. They have the Codex itself in the art department, but I could find no reference to reviews of the book, or articles about it or the author, in any of the standard references or periodical indices, except a pointer in the *1984* (not 1983) New York Times Index to what turned out to be a totally worthless tiny one-paragraph "review" (really just a short description of the book). [In case anyone is interested, to save you the effort, that is Feb 12, 1984, Section 7, Page 20, Col. 2.] I am amazed that a reference like the "Art Index", for example, has nothing about the book nor the author (except a pointer to an article in "Domus" that refers to some other unrelated works by him). How could such an artwork go so unremarked? Is it that it is so strange and outre' that critics cannot think of anything to say about it and therefore ignore it? I also spent some time searching bound volumes and microfilm of Scientific American, and just cannot find the Hofstadtler "Metamagical Themas" column that discusses this book. Either I just plain missed it, or the book is not referred to in the title of the column, nor in the bibliography page at the rear of each issue (which does contain references for other books mentioned in Metamagical Themas). I did scan most of the text in any column which seemed appropriate. Maybe this was another one of those two-sentence references buried in amidst much other prose, like the NYT "review", which will turn out not to be worth the effort of unearthing it? I searched 1981 through the last of these columns, which terminated in late '83, without finding the citation. Anyway, I guess the Codex will have to be appreciated on its own, without any guidance from published criticism or other "authoritative" commentary. It is still somewhat surprising that such an astounding book seems to have sunk from view without a ripple of discussion... Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 14:50:44 GMT From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley) Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus >I also spent some time searching bound volumes and microfilm of >Scientific American, and just cannot find the Hofstadtler >"Metamagical Themas" column that discusses this book. Either I just >plain missed it, or the book is not referred to in the title of the >column, nor in the bibliography page at the rear of each issue >(which does contain references for other books mentioned in >Metamagical Themas). You couldn't find the reference in Scientific American because there is no reference to CS in any of Hofstadter's columns. The reference occurs in the *book* Metamagical Themas: Questing for the Essence of Mind and Pattern (Douglas R. Hofstadter, ISBN 0-553-34279-7) which is a collection of all Hofstadter's SA columns and some other material, with commentary and additional new material added to each for the book. The reference to CS is in a 'postscript' added to the end of the reprinted December 1982 column entitled "Stuff and Nonsense" on p. 229 of the large format softcover edition. William H. Ansley csnet: ansley@buffalo.csnet uucp: ..!{allegra,decvax,watmath,rocksanne}!sunybcs!ansley bitnet: ansley@sunybcs.bitnet csdansle@sunyabvc usmail: Computer Science Dept. 226 Bell Hall SUNYAB Buffalo, NY 14260 ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 12:27:31 GMT From: moss!whuts!hiatt@RUTGERS.EDU (HIATT) Subject: Re: More on Book Ban > Any book with the word "goddamn" in it or "a lot of vulgar > language" is banned. Here are some of those books: > > _Oedipus Rex_ ... > _Oedipus the King_ > _Watership Down_ Double jeopardy for poor old Sophocles. No matter how you translate "Oedipos Tyrranos" (sp?), you wind up with a good goddam somewhere. Actually I doubt that vulgar language got "Oedipus" banned. But what did? One can but marvel. "Watership Down"?--about bunnies, Rowsby Woof, and the Fairy Wogdog? We could have some sort of a discussion if the banners would let us know their criteria, especially for standouts like the above. Blanchard Hiatt ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 09:55 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Banned books I will guess at some of the reasons for the banning of some of the books. I will agree with the idea that the BBanners are uncomfortable with the ideas presented in the books, that "natural order", in their eyes, is usurped, and that "immorality" is rampant through some, and we all know that we poor little sheep mustn't look at any Bad Ideas because we're not strong enough to use our own judgement, which is surely inferior to that of the BBanners. I've always found it difficult to understand how I'm supposed to develop good judgement if I'm never allowed to use what I've got, or I can only use it until I fail to live up to some stranger's standards of good judgement. Books I don't know well enough to comment: Three Comedies of American Life A Separate Peace Intruder in the Dust Death Be Not Proud Tale Blazer Library Best Short Stories Arrangement in Literature After the First Death Long Day's Journey Into Night The Outsiders Alas, Babylon The Emperor Jones Winterset The Man Who Came to Dinner Adventures in English Literature The Little Foxes The Mayor of Casterbridge Ghosts Miss Julie On Baile's Strand Exploring Life Through Literature McTeague Never Cry Wolf I am the Cheese Growing Up "Wrong" view of God: Lost Horizon Oedipus Rex Watership Down The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin The Inferno (Ciardi translation) The Old Man and the Sea The Oedipus Plays of Sophocles Too little respect for the law or Status Quo or the Establishment: Shane A Farewell to Arms Oedipus Rex Watership Down Animal Farm The Crucible Fahrenheit 451 The Prince and the Pauper Mister Roberts Lord of the Flies Great Expectations The Canterbury Tales Brave New World The Merchant of Venice Wuthering Heights Hamlet Characters have low moral character and are neither adequately repentant or punished: The Great Gatsby Oedipus Rex Deathwatch Twelfth Night The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin The Prince and the Pauper The Glass Menagerie Lord of the Flies Lord of the Flies (Casebook Edition) Great Expectations The Canterbury Tales Brave New World The Merchant of Venice In Cold Blood The Inferno (Ciardi translation) Prometheus Unbound Oedipus the King Hippolytus King Lear Desire Under the El The Fixer Of Mice and Men About David Wuthering Heights Hamlet To Kill a Mockingbird Beats me, Jack: The Red Badge of Courage The Pearl The Call of the Wild Player Piano Major British Writers A Raisin in the Sun Please note: These are guesses at SOMEONE ELSE'S "judgments". These do not represent my opinions in the least. Marina Fournier Arpa: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 18:40:58 GMT From: ccastgs@gitpyr.gatech.edu (Glenn Stone) Subject: Re: More on Book Ban hiatt@whuts.UUCP (Blanchard Hiatt) writes: >Actually I doubt that vulgar language got "Oedipus" banned. But >what did? One can but marvel. "Watership Down"?--about bunnies, >Rowsby Woof, and the Fairy Wogdog? Heh. Those 'harmless' little rabbits could be quite vulgar... Like what Bigwig told General Woundroot to do just before they fought... "Silflay hraka, u embleer rah." Anybody who knows lapine would consider that more than vulgar enough to provoke a fight. Some of the things in the story of the Fairy Wogdog weren't exactly pretty, either. Glenn Stone BITNET: ccastgs@gitvm1 ARPA: ccastgs@pyr.ocs.gatech.edu USnail: Georgia Tech Box 30372, Atlanta, GA 30332 {akgua|allegra|hplabs|ihnp4|seismo}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastgs ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 18:24:29 GMT From: alfke@csvax.caltech.edu (J. Peter Alfke) Subject: Watership Down (was: More on Book Ban) hiatt@whuts.UUCP (HIATT) writes: >Actually I doubt that vulgar language got "Oedipus" banned. But >what did? One can but marvel. "Watership Down"?--about bunnies, >Rowsby Woof, and the Fairy Wogdog? Actually, "Watership Down" is resolutely non-cute and involves a fair amount of gore. Quite a realistic book, assuming you make the initial leap of accepting (moderately) intelligent rabbits. I first read it when I was about ten, and some of the Efrafa stuff really gave me the creeps ... I suppose it might have been banned for somehow masquerading as some relative to "Uncle Wiggly Visits the Magic Pixies", then leaping out at the poor kids and dumping buckets of blood on them, but come on. Any kid who's really after Uncle Wiggly will be turned off within the first twenty pages, and that's before any real violence. Peter Alfke@csvax.caltech.edu ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 15:45:43 GMT From: umnd-cs!umn-cs!hyper!dean@RUTGERS.EDU (Dean Gahlon) Subject: Re: Banned books Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM says: > I will guess at some of the reasons for the banning of some of the > books. ... > Characters have low moral character and are neither > adequately repentant or punished: > In Cold Blood The Inferno (Ciardi translation) > ... > Please note: These are guesses at SOMEONE ELSE'S "judgments". > These do not represent my opinions in the least. Say WHAT? I'm trying to figure out how someone could feel that characters in the Inferno were not adequately punished. After all, these people are being forced to do terrible unpleasant things for all eternity as punishment for their sins. If that isn't sufficient punishment, I'd hate to see their idea of what IS. I found the rest of your ideas for why such people would want these books banned to be generally close to the mark (at least according to what I know about these books), but this one seemed a little strange to me. Dean C. Gahlon ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hyper!dean ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 14:57:35 GMT From: hplabs!csun!dlt@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Thompson) Subject: Re: More on Book Ban hiatt@whuts.UUCP (HIATT) writes: > Actually I doubt that vulgar language got "Oedipus" banned. But > what did? One can but marvel. Probably because Oedipus married his mother (not knowing, of course, that they were related). Then there's the fact that his mother and father attempted to have him killed at birth (murder) because of a prophesy (witchcraft (?)). When his mother found out that she was married to her son, she killed herself. Of course, Oedipus ends up gouging his own eyes out. (A *wonderfully* happy story... :-)) Dave Thompson CSUN Computer Center 18111 Nordhoff Street, Northridge, CA 91330 phone: (818) 885-2790 uucp: {ihnp4|hplabs|psivax}!csun!dlt ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 13:41:03 GMT From: moss!whuts!hiatt@RUTGERS.EDU (HIATT) Subject: Re: Watership Down (was: More on Book Ban) alfke@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (J. Peter Alfke) writes: > hiatt@whuts.UUCP (HIATT) writes: >>Actually I doubt that vulgar language got "Oedipus" banned. But >>what did? One can but marvel. "Watership Down"?--about bunnies, >>Rowsby Woof, and the Fairy Wogdog? > > Actually, "Watership Down" is resolutely non-cute and involves a > fair amount of gore. ... I suppose it might have been banned > for... leaping out at the poor kids and dumping buckets of blood > on them, but come on. You're right, of course; Watership Down is a serious read, possibly banned because of anti-authoritarian leanings. Forgive me, I was using the "bunny" idea to stimulate any postings from people who know the rationales for this Florida banning, or bannings of this sort (they crop up every so often). The "Rowsby Woof and the Fairy Wogdog" chapter is one of the great funny tales, I think. (Maybe the banning owes to the satirical portrayal of dogs.) And the character Bigwig will live forever in my heart. He's the ultimate in faithful heroes, who did what had to be done, with all the cost to himself. *And* he survived and conquered. Other heroes often fail or die or both, but one that does not remains to challenge a reader at every moment of moral decision to come in that reader's life. The ironies of these bannings are just stupefying. Blanchard Hiatt AT&T Bell Laboratories ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 87 20:59:12 GMT From: hplabs!intelca!mipos3!martin@RUTGERS.EDU (Martin Harriman) Subject: Re: More on Book Ban Somehow, I doubt that Sophocles was banned because he let some malefactor off too lightly. If you think about it, it's usually quite the reverse--some more or less honest, moral individual gets hideously mangled for reasons which may or may not be connected with his or her morality (Greek morality--a fun subject calculated to make any book-banner explode with delight--or something). One suspects that the book banners find not-so-happy endings and incest to be fairly offensive. The ugh, ick school of literary "criticism," so to speak. One wonders why Euripides, Aristophanes, and Plato did not make the list; perhaps these silly people haven't figured it out yet. Oh well, maybe some sneaky teacher will use Lysistrata or the Symposium, and really go to town. Or Hippolytus (which I just saw outdoors in UCSC's quarry ampitheater at 6:30 this morning--eek...), or Medea (my all-time favorite). It's probably all for the best--if they let the children read such things, they might grow up to be classicists, and then where would we be? Martin martin@scruz2.sc.intel.com ..!{hplabs, decwrl, amdcad}!intelca!mipos3!martin ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 1 Jun 87 0925-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #262 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Jun 87 0925-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #262 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 262 Today's Topics: Television - Comments & Space:1999 & Max Headroom & Blake's 7 & Danger Man & Doctor Who & Good/Bad TV (3 msgs) & Fantastic Journey (2 msgs) & The Prisoner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 May 87 11:59:09 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Misc. comments on TV programmes From: Teresa Griffie (IBD) > I also remember another SF show, with a teenage boy as the star, > and Donald Moffat as an android named Rem. It was called > something like "Fantastic Journey", and it wasn't on very long > also. You are getting a couple of different shows mixed up. There was indeed a show called THE FANTASTIC JOURNEY that starred, among others, Roddy McDowell. But it was LOGAN'S RUN that had Donald Moffat as Rem. Logan, incidentally, was the first major role for Gregory Harrison, who later made a name for himself as Gonzo in TRAPPER JOHN, M.D. (And how many people remember that Harry Hamlin, currently of L.A. LAW got his start in the atrocious Harryhausen flick CLASH OF THE TITANS?) --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Apr 87 12:47 EDT From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: space 1999 While Space 1999 my not have been that popular over here in the states, it went down rather well in England where it was made. It has been a long time since I have seen any episodes, but I did see almost all of them when they were first aired, including the 2-hour opening special that explained why Earth's moon was floating through the galaxy at near relativistic speeds. I must admit that I liked the series almost (Note _almost_) as much as I liked Star Trek. I liked the modular design of the space ships (Eagles), and I liked the way that they handled Mya's (sp?) polymorph powers. I just felt that I had to speak up. I would also like to know if anyone knows whether it is possible to get Space 1999 on video anywhere. Keith Anderson Hampshire college ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 87 19:58:33 GMT From: cmcl2!cadre!pitt!bgsuvax!mcdermot@RUTGERS.EDU (mark mcdermott) Subject: Re: Max Headroom: queary about April 28 episode... buchholz@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Elliott Buchholz) writes: > tim@reed.UUCP (T. Russell Flanagan) writes: >>What, praytell, is a "ratings sweep". I think they also refered >>to this event as a "twenty-four-hour ratings sweep", implying that >>the networks > > Guess what? It's not make believe. Ratings sweep does exist. > Not 24 hours as in Headroom, but Sweep Week is used in our tv > industry. for one week, the ratings put out their best shows (not > really best, just the most provocative or most drawing) in order > to win points for something I'm not quite so sure about. It has > to do with advertising and shares, I believe. You'll recognize > sweeps week by the specials on tennage prostitution, News > documentaries on local porn shops, and Battles if the Network T&A. > It's not very well hidden. (literally) The netowrk sweeps period is when Arbitron does a more intensified rating period, using more families and providing statistics on more hours of the day and more breakdown on who's watching. These are the statistics on which networks and station will base their basic advertising rates (we don't have an Ad Market like in Max, but it may not be far off. February is a Sweeps Month, as I believe May (this month) is, too. I believe that "20 minutes into the future" there were about 10,000 tv nets mentioned, and some scenes in the boardroom at Network 23 showed them watching graphs of almost instantaneous ratings results. Thus the 24 hour Sweeps would be even more intense. One day, everybody will spend all their time watching TV. After all, you are now, right? >8*) Mark McDermott Bowling Green State U., Ohio ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 87 08:50 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Blakes 7 and rationality Speaking of "stealing" ideas, I recently saw Blakes 7 "Duel." Seemed far more similar to Star Trek's "Arena" than "Arena" was to the short story (of the same name) on which it was based! Even... *SPOILER ALERT* (if it's possible anyone could be surprised by this) ...with our hero proving why he's the good guy by refusing to kill the bad guy. What I found most interesting about this episode, though was 1) I think Blakes 7, like ST, is a terrific show because, even with a trite plot, there are enough WONDERFUL characterizations to make it fun anyway, 2) the point changed. In "Arena," ST episode and short story, both written during an era of rationalization, our hero wins because he out-thinks his opponent. In "Duel" Blake wins because he's nice to his companion, while the bad guy is nasty to his own. I'm seeing this trend throughout SF, these days. Take ST, where you could depend on Spock to explain, at the end of each episode, why it all worked the way it did, or to at least TRY to explain it. Vs. STIV, where we'll never know, or expect to know, about the probe and its creators. Nimoy was quoted somewhere (was it in this digest?) saying something about that point and the arrogance of the human race in thinking they could understand things. That attitude bothers me, and runs quite contrary to my own opinions of what SF should be. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 87 16:31:53 EDT From: FULIGIN%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: "Danger man" = "Secret Agent Man" As was, I believe, mentioned in an earlier discussion of "The Prisoner," the TV series known in England as "Danger Man" was re-titled "Secret Agent Man" in the US. It was, arguably, the prequel to "The Prisoner", being a spy/secret agent drama set in (then) modern times, and starring Patrick McGoohan (The Prisoner). It was the popularity of "Danger Man" that allowed McGoohan to make "The Prisoner", and, although never stated outright in the latter, it is quite conceivable that he is playing the same character in both series... Be Seeing You, Peter Lee Fuligin%UMass.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 87 10:26:26 EDT From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Doctor Who Season 23 ***---MASSIVE SPOILERS---*** A friend of mine in Boston, Mass just went to the Doctor Who USA Tour yesterday and interviewed Sylvester McCoy. He also found out a lot about the new Doctor and the new stories. Doctor Who #7's costume will consist of a straw hat, a regular white shirt with no ? on the collar, a red and blue scottish tie, tweed trousers with big baggy pockets, an offwhite coat, a tartan scarf, a sweater covered with ?, and red suspenders over his sweater(this is to make fun of Michael Grade since he wears red suspenders). The Doctor will have a wristwatch and a pocketwatch, 1 for each heart, and will carry around an abacus for complex calculations. He will not be wearing glasses. Also the logo and theme music will be changed yet again, and may have Bonnie Langford a.k.a. Melanie singing something in the theme. The new season will have the following 4 stories: STRANGE MATTER (4 parts) by Pip & Jane Baker The TARDIS crashes on an alien planet and Doctor #6 staggers out and falls on his face. Melanie turns him over and he regenerates. The Rani will return in this story and impersonate Melanie. The monsters will be called Tetrats, 4-eyed gorilla/bats. PARADISE TOWER (4 parts) by Steven Wyatt Set in the near future, London in the 1990's. A bunch of insane architects are building a "paradise tower." DELTA AND BANNERMAN (3 parts) by Malcolm Cole Set in the late 1950's. 2 alien blobs, shapeshifters and rock 'n roll stars called Delta and Bannerman, have a spaceship that can go anywhere and mimic any object. They plan to go to Disneyworld on Earth but are knocked off course by the launching of America's first satellite. They land instead in a holiday resort in Wales. The Doctor will do some Rock 'n Roll with them. DRAGONFIRE (3 parts) by Ian Brigg Set on an ice planet ruled by a nasty, powerful being with ice creatures as slaves. Oh, one thing I almost forgot to mention, Servolon Glitz from TRIAL OF A TIME LORD will return sometime in this season. Andy Steinberg nutto%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu Cyberma%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.wis.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 87 11:08:31 EDT From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: sf TV series Lately there has been tons of stuff about good and bad sf movies but very little about TV series. GOOD SF TV SERIES Doctor Who The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Blake's 7 Saphire and Steel (a short lived British show about 2 "angels" who repaired the structure of time when it was broken) Star Trek Space:1999 (I don't care what anyone says it was great!) Quark (a hilarious parody) Max Headroom UFO BAD SF TV SERIES Battlestar Galactica (the first few were OK but the rest stunk) Buck Rogers in the 25th Century (just plain bad!) Otherworld (another endless-quest show) The Powers of Matthew Star ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 87 19:16:46 GMT From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu Subject: Re: sf TV series Cyberma@UMass.BITNET writes: >BAD SF TV SERIES >Battlestar Galactica (the first few were OK but the rest stunk) >Buck Rogers in the 25th Century (just plain bad!) >Otherworld (another endless-quest show) >The Powers of Matthew Star You forgot one of tha all time (Im my humble opinion) dogs: LOST IN SPACE (I know that the first few shows were not bad, but it deteriorated to an unwatchable mush. Regards T. Kogoma cs2633ba@izar.UUCP cs2633ba@izar.UNM.EDU {gatech:unm-la:ucbvax:hc!hi}!unmvax!izar!cs2633ba ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 87 21:24:26 GMT From: lkeber@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu ( LAK) Subject: Re: sf TV series There was a show about a group of people, lost (originally) in the Bermuda Triangle, who were sent to different worlds by a wierd storm that occured every once in a while. Along the way, they picked up a peaceful mentalist from the future who had a little forklike thing to focus mental energy or something...I don't remember anymore, or the name of the show. What was it? Larry ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 01:42:54 GMT From: ames!pyramid!osu-eddie!francis@RUTGERS.EDU (RD Francis) Subject: Re: sf TV series lkeber@hawk.UUCP ( LAK) writes: >There was a show about a group of people, lost (originally) in the >Bermuda Triangle, who were sent to different worlds by a wierd >storm that occured every once in a while. Along the way, they >picked up a peaceful mentalist from the future who had a little >forklike thing to focus mental energy or something...I don't >remember anymore, or the name of the show. What was it? If this is the show I think it was, its title was FANTASTIC JOURNEY. This was on around 77-78, for 3-6 months. The only person I distinctly remember was Roddy McDowell ( I think! ), who played an evil character, perhaps who was known but not recognized as bad ( a *REALLY* nasty Dr. Smith (Lost in Space)). Of course, all this is from memory, mostly quite old. I am sure of the name, because I was thinking of the show a few days ago and looked it up in a book. R David Francis francis@ohio-state.ARPA cbosgd!osu-eddie!francis ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 03:12:45 GMT From: rjd@nancy (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: sf TV series lkeber@hawk.UUCP ( LAK) writes: >There was a show about a group of people, lost (originally) in the >Bermuda Triangle, who were sent to different worlds by a wierd >storm that occured every once in a while. Along the way, they >picked up a peaceful mentalist from the future who had a little >forklike thing to focus mental energy or something...I don't >remember anymore, or the name of the show. > >What was it? It was called: "The Fantastic Journey" and lasted a whopping 16 weeks. Actually, it wasn't a bad little show, but they should have taken a few more chances and done a few more clever things with it... Other things about the show: (a) It took place on an "infinite island." Since the island existed in all places and at all times, it had no boundaries. As you traveled from west to east, you went forward in time. I also believe the sky was a featureless grey color because it was essentially a "time lapse" portrait of the sky seen from earth throughout infinity. (b) With the exception of three characters: the boy, his guardian, and Jarad, the dude from the future, the show was meant to have a revolving cast - changing every few weeks as the group traveled: some characters would choose to stay in certain time zones, some chose to follow. When the show ended the cast consisted of: The Boy and his Guardian (whose names escape me) from 1977...they were marooned on the island in a shipwreck caused by "the storm" Jarad - a space traveler from the 24th century marooned in his spaceship while trying to land during "the storm" Dr. something-or-anther - a physicist from 1965 played by Roddy McDowell who was marooned by "the storm" while flying through the area in a private plane A woman from the second century *BC* who they were trying to pass of as a resident of Atlantis. She (and her cat, I believe) were marooned on the island when "the storm" evidently sunk Atlantis. There...that pretty much exhausts what I remember about it. Harlan Ellison called it "another civilization-of-the-week" show... Rob DeMillo Brown University Planetary Science Group UUCP: ...{seismo!harpo}!ihnp4!brunix!rjd ...{seismo!harpo}!ihnp4!brunix!europa!rd BITNET: GE702025@BROWNVM ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 15:42:20 GMT From: rochester!cci632!ccicpg!cracraft@RUTGERS.EDU (Stuart Cracraft) Subject: The Prisoner, episodes 1 & 2 This series of commentaries will cover all 17 "Prisoner" episodes. ******SPOILER****** Episode 1: "Arrival" Number 6 finds his new home in the village, but he learns that "a still tongue makes a happy life." He finds his living quarters, radio, personal maid, and village-map all very useful. A former associate offs himself, and Number 6 becomes the renewed object of inspection by the village management. His captors realize that Number 6 will be a fairly tough nut to crack. Episode 2: "The Chimes of Big Ben" Number 6 meets Nadia, a recent new immigrant to the village. He enters an "arts and crafts festival" and wins first place for his sculpture. Later, Number 6 disassembles the sculpture into its component parts and builds a boat. He and Nadia travel by sea, land, and air via the Netherlands to London. Reunited with his intelligence operatives, Number 6 is quizzed about his resignation. Only upon the "Chimes of Big Ben" does he realize that he is not in fact in London, but still in the village. Synopsis: The Prisoner is a sophisticated fantasy-allegory incorporating science-fiction elements. The village is symbolic of both the external forces (e.g. society, authority) that try to imprison us, as well as our own internal forces (e.g. self-deception, a closed mind, our defensive mechanisms) that do an even better job of creating our own prisons. This series is among the most psychologically sophisticated. Its often convoluted story-lines, yet simplicity of presentation, suggest a fairly unique creative intelligence. The fast pace of the editing and dialogue keep the story-line moving inevitably to its conclusion: the prison exists, it is within us, and only we can liberate ourselves. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 1 Jun 87 0942-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #263 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Jun 87 0942-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #263 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 263 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 May 87 02:46:51 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? Friday was raped. There is no doubt about that. Rape is, in my opinion, an act which should result in whatever retribution the victim deems appropriate, be it castration, death, or whatever. This is, I hope, clear. Friday is a professional agent. Not a spy, but a "Combat courier", which we are given to mean "gets the item there no matter what it takes". In this case, she let her guard down when she shouldn't have, was captured, and the "amature" thugs tied (handcuffed) her to a bed, and were ordered to rape her by their boss, on the idea that it would break her will to resist. She states herself that, were she an untrained woman (person, OK?), it would likely be EXTREMELY traumatic (to say the very least), and totally vicious and unnecessary, as Friday herself had already given them all she knew. This was the policy of her employer: talk, rather than play "iron man" and get damaged. Emotionally, Friday has strong control (usually). She decides that her best bet to live is to feign pleasure. She accomplishes this by being very clinical about the proceedings. Nowhere does Heinlein, or Friday, state or IMPLY that "Rape Is Great". On the contrary, it is condemned. Personally, I don't see how somebody's emotional control could be THAT strong (Mr. Spock, maybe? 8-), but in the context of the book... Not his best novel, not his worst. I still say _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_ is his worst. There are extenuating circumstances (phys. condition), but if that is not allowed for (and really, it CANNOT be, to fairly compare it...), the book is cluttered, repetitious, and VERY unfinished. I was disappointed. Eric ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 11:02:29 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL (One More Time) k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes: > REGARDING SIASL & HOMOPHOBIA IN PARTICULAR: > ...Aside from the other problems with Heinlein's writing which I > enumerated above, one of the main reasons *I* mentioned for not > liking the book is Heinlein's squeamish attitude in discussing > homophobia. Well, your convictions seem to be pretty firm. Personally, in the light of all this discussion, I went and read the book again. I found nothing to support these claims of Homophobia, and a lot about personal tolerance and rejection of hypocrisy. Next, I reread "I Will Fear No Evil". You have read this, of course? It is quite a bit more heavy-handed, but also much more explicit in terms of accepting homosexuality as just another legitmate form of interpersonal relationship, basically a matter of personal taste and reconcilation with one's upbringing, rather than a moral issue. Finally, "Glory Road". This really doesn't deal with the issue. It's kind of an intermediate form, somewhere in between Harsh Mistress and Starship Toopers. It basically deals with personal determination and comparative cultures. Still stuff to fight about though, check page 247 or so... Look, Heinlein was guilty of progressive thinking back in the early 60's when Stranger and Glory Road were published (Stranger was started > 10 years earlier, if I recall). Heinlein hasn't really changed his views much since then, and perhaps they don't stand up all that well in the context of the currently politically correct views on Feminism and Homosexuality. So what! The accepted conventions of the present day are in as much need of questioning and examination as the bizaare and fearful notions of the 50's were. It may not be of much use today to worry about how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin, but there is plenty of relevant food for thought in Heinlein's novel's. You are, of course, not requied to agree with the author, merely to tackle the issues. By the way Kathy, what do you like and/or respect in SF? George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 11:14:30 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: > It's been a while since I read FRIDAY, and I have forgotten much > (it was the last Heinlein I read, and probably will remain so; I > don't hate him, I just haven't much liked his later (post-NUMBER > OF THE BEAST) work.) Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind, > and throat, is the scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which > Friday, the main character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather > enjoys the experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable, > relax and enjoy it' theory), and comments to herself that while > the technique of rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B > isn't bad at all. There a several notions: 1) RAH is a pervert 2) RAH thinks women should enjoy rape 3) RAH is delineating the "distance" between Friday (the AP) and "normal" women 4) RAH is suggesting that the normal social (self-hate, guilt, etc) response to rape is optional. 5) RAH is asserting that rape is an age old burden of woman, and it is better to bear it than be crushed by it. Heinlein often drops revolting or shocking scenes into his works. They *are* there for a purpose. Either to jolt the reader or serve as reality tests. One of the problems of having read too much science fiction is that suspension of belief come too easy, and sometimes the shockers just drift on by... George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 15:44:38 GMT From: bryan@druhi.att.com (BryanJT) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: > It's been a while since I read FRIDAY, and I have forgotten much > (it was the last Heinlein I read, and probably will remain so; I > don't hate him, I just haven't much liked his later (post-NUMBER > OF THE BEAST) work.) Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind, > and throat, is the scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which > Friday, the main character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather > enjoys the experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable, > relax and enjoy it' theory), and comments to herself that while > the technique of rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B > isn't bad at all. > > This is a repulsive attitude toward rape, which is NOT enjoyable. I think you may have misconstrued Friday's reaction to the gang rape. She, as a professional courier, has been trained to be objective about anything and, in particular, how to handle this situation. All throughout the book, her overt, narrated point-of-view tends to minimize her reactions to things of a professional nature in favor of objectivity. She doesn't really take the "if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it" (and I'm SURE Heinlein isn't suggesting that this is a reasonable response, given his attitudes about rape in other works [The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, The Number of the Beast, etc.]) -- what she does is use her "mind control training" to *avoid* being traumatized by it, and then she attempts to find anything she can use to her own advantage. She "pretends" to enjoy it as a means of trying to "gain some control" over the situation and comments to herself (I think somewhat wryly) that one of them wouldn't be so bad under other circumstances but that other guy ... The bottom line is, I think her response was reasonable, given her training, profession, and duties. I didn't take it as a general comment about rape, in any case. And I am *certain* Heinlein didn't mean it that way. ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 00:54:21 GMT From: dlw@pdp.cs.ohiou.edu (Daniel Weigert) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: > Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind, and throat, is the > scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which Friday, the main > character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather enjoys the > experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy > it' theory), and comments to herself that while the technique of > rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B isn't bad at all. > > This is a repulsive attitude toward rape, which is NOT enjoyable. I didn't get that at all from the scene. If you recall, the reason she was being raped was to force information from her. She was trained in this situation to "cooperate" with the inquisitors a) to stall, and b) to frustrate them. I don't happen to agree with this SOP but it sort of worked. From my reading she would have preferred to not go through that ordeal at all. Part of her attitude was from her being brought up as an enhanced person; she was taught to think of herself as non-human and property. Daniel Weigert (614) 593-1242 Computer Science Dept. Ohio University, Athens, Ohio 45701-2979 UUCP:cbosgd!oucs!dlw Internet:dlw@pdp.cs.OHIOU.EDU Bitnet:CS806@OUACCVMB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 87 14:01 EST From: (Mary Malmros) Subject: HEINLEIN (MY 2 CENTS) In re: Heinlein and sexism, I will agree with many postings that say that he does try in his more recent books, but I don't think he makes it. I don't think that any of his female characters are free of the taint. To be honest, I find what he does to be worse than blatant sexism. It's as if he's saying, "Give women opportunities, let them develop themselves, let them work and study and compete with men, and they will *relegate themselves* to a devalued, subservient position." The perpetuation of this myth is a very real problem for all women who are trying to work or study in non-traditional fields, so the "if you don't like it, don't read it and there's no damage done" argument doesn't really hold water here. This, to me, is an objective basis for saying that Heinlein's work is not very good. Here's my vote for least favorite Heinlein female protagonist: Sam's co-agent/girlfriend/ wife in _The Puppet Masters_. This woman is really, truly pitiful. She's a capable agent and thinking human being, but once she agrees to marry Sam, her vocabulary seems to degenerate to the point where "Yes, Sam" is all she can say. Pretty sad... Mary Malmros MANAGER@SMITH (bitnet) ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 15:42:16 GMT From: inco!mack@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Mack) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: > Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind, and throat, is the > scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which Friday, the main > character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather enjoys the > experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy > it' theory), and comments to herself that while the technique of > rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B isn't bad at all. > > This is a repulsive attitude toward rape, which is NOT enjoyable. Whose attitude do you find repulsive? Heinlein's? Friday's? Heinlein isn't advocating rape, he's trying to make a point about Friday's personality: she is, in the words of Lazarus Long, "a tough bitch kitty," but also has an inferiority problem because she is an artificial person. Admittedly, no one in the real world is likely to react to rape the way Friday does, but "stepping out of yourself" while something unpleasant is happening to you is probably a better way of dealing with the problem than going catatonic. Friday, in viewing her own rape dispassionately, avoids becoming a victim of her rapists, at least in her own mind. Dave Mack McDonnell Douglas-Inco, Inc. 8201 Greensboro Drive McLean, VA 22101 (703)883-3911 ...!seismo!sundc!hadron!inco!mack ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 19:42:57 GMT From: ames!amdahl!aussjo!dana!worley@RUTGERS.EDU (John Worley) Subject: Re: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? > Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind, and throat, is the > scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which Friday, the main > character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather enjoys the > experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy > it' theory), and comments to herself that while the technique of > rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B isn't bad at all. > > This is a repulsive attitude toward rape, which is NOT enjoyable. > > (Note: there is, of course, a possibility that I am completely > misremembering the event in question, ... Having recently re-read "Friday", I believe you HAVE misrembered. The rape was being used as *torture* and *mental abuse* to try and "soften" Friday for the subsequent interogation. Friday does not enjoy the experience - she vowed to kill all of them in painful ways later - but rather describes the mental block she uses to prevent the gang-bang from damaging her mind, part of which was giving the APPEARANCE that she was enjoying it. I did think the rape scene was somewhat gratuitous if it's only purpose was to establish a previous meeting with Peter(?) so Friday can identify him on the starliner. Maybe some Heinlein devotees can explain its other functions? I though the book, like many of Heinlein's works, was overly long, tried to set up too much and had too many coincidences. I must disagree with the previous posting which complained about Friday's settling down and raising children at the end: 1) She only had one child, the one implanted in her on Earth, as she was sterile, and 2) she was very much a community leader, as was explained in the last chapter. The point of the pregnancy (OPINION ->) was to finally prove to Friday that she *was* a human being, not an "artifact". John Worley hplabs!dana!worley ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 04:24:07 GMT From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU From: (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes: >It's been a while since I read FRIDAY, and I have forgotten much >(it was the last Heinlein I read, and probably will remain so; I >don't hate him, I just haven't much liked his later (post-NUMBER OF >THE BEAST) work.) Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind, and >throat, is the scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which >Friday, the main character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather >enjoys the experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable, relax >and enjoy it' theory), and comments to herself that while the >technique of rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B isn't bad >at all. > >This is a repulsive attitude toward rape, which is NOT enjoyable. > >I am not flaming Heinlein the man, or his works, or even FRIDAY as >a whole (since I don't remember enough of it to do so). But this >particular episode is revolting. Well, I had forgotten that until I re-read Friday. (The day *after* I posted naturally!) But I must point out that she is _explicitly_ using a psychological "trick" to attempt to make the rape more endurable. Since this is supposed to have been covered in her agent training, I'd be interested in finding out what the "standard procedure" (if any) of current intelligence agencies is with regard to such events. Anybody have _real_ info? But even more importantly, as we find out later in the book, she was "trained" (indoctrinated is more like it!) as a "doxy" in the creche. Thus her attitudes and emotions regarding rape were _very_ odd! Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 1 Jun 87 0956-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #264 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Jun 87 0956-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #264 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 264 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - First SF (13 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 May 87 00:52:32 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccdbryan@RUTGERS.EDU (Bryan McDonald) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction I think my first sf was a combined effort, reading the Doc Savage episodes mixed with a liberal dose of Space Cadet out of the free exchange library were Mom was a volunteer. I must have read over a hundred books out of that library, but once I hit the sf section I was hooked for life. I remember bringing home a shopping bag full of them one day, and taking them back two weeks later, and thinking "HA, Boy did I fool Mom into thinking I was studying...". Unfortunately those study habits I learned in 5th grade have come back to haunt me, but it has been for the best of causes... Bryan McDonald Univ. of California @ Davis ------------------------------ Date: Thu 28 May 87 02:34:48-PDT From: Bob Pratt Subject: First SF I was corrupted young and early :-). The first Sf I read was Heinlein's Sixth Column, and the first fantasy book I read was Bored of the Rings (Not Tolkein, but the Harvard Lampoon). This was at age 8. I would not recommend either of them to hook somebody on SF with. I guess I'm just weird. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 1987 13:14 EDT From: Ken Papai Micro Systems Group Lead A/P From: Subject: First Science Fiction The first science fiction that I remember reading and that caused me to be such a serious fan today was _The White Mountains_ (I forget the author, but I remember him/her being mentioned in SF-LOVERS). I think it was actually the movie "The War of the Worlds" that actually led me to reading TWM. I was 9-10 at the time and hounded the South Bend Libraries for stuff to read. I had seen part of "The War of the Worlds" (it scared the sh** out of me then) and TWM reminded me of the movie so I borrowed it and read it. I found it fascinating and was overjoyed in finding that it continued into two more books. I then remember borrowing the taped broadcast of Orson Welles doing his thing in the 30's and I was hooked for life. Does anyone know where I can find a copy of _The Stars My Destination_ ?? I've been drawing blanks for the last couple of years and I am getting desperate. Maybe ANALOG magazine can help... Ken Papai IUPUI Indianapolis, IN BITNET: IKJP400@INDYCMS AT&T Net: 317-274-0745 ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 23:45:31 GMT From: rjd@nancy (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction OK...OK...I didn't wanna, but I'll play this game too.....;-) Before I read any SF, I had only briefly flipped through my brother's collection which he stashed under the bed. I thought they had neat covers but too many words...;-) Only after he had later "willed" these books to me later in life - after he went away to college - did I realize what they were and who wrote them: Clarke, Zelazny, Renolyds, Heinlein, etc. The first SF that I can remember reading was a book that I ordered from a school book drive called "The Time Tunnel," and was authored by someone that I should know - unfortunately I have forgotten his name. It was your typical time travel story (of course I didn't know that then) about a pair of scientists who create a time machine and go back to the prehistoric past to see all sorts of wonderful things. (Dinosaurs, old ferns, primitive tribes, etc..) This was in about third grade...and the author had written the book for little kids... (If anyone can help me out with the author's name, I'd appreciate it...it's gonna drive me crazy now.) After that, I was hooked, and I ran immediately to my local library to check out any thing else I could find. I asked the librarian if they had any books on time travel (not knowing what SF was...). After I had gotten across to her what I meant, she said "Oh no, dear...we don't have *those* kind of books here..." She then redirected me to the "Hardy Boys" section... What I found out later in life was that the people in charge of the library at that time were only stocking books they felt "proper." (Yup, censorship was another word I learned at an early age.) Fortunately, others took over the library administration shortly after that, and "redefined" their policies...I could get all the science fiction I wanted...and I was off. (In case you didn't guess, I grew up in a small town...) Rob DeMillo Brown University - Planetary Science Group UUCP: ...{seismo!harpo}!ihnp4!brunix!rjd ...{seismo!harpo}!ihnp4!brunix!europa!rd BITNET: GE702025@BROWNVM ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 87 21:02:51 GMT From: levin@cc5.bbn.com.bbn.com (Joel B Levin) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction My original thought was of all the standard Heinlein juvies, Asimov "Lucky Starr" stuff, etc., that I remember from jr/sr high schools, but stretching way back I remember something called "Rocket Jockey" about a race through space to prove a new rocket fuel (no idea who wrote it). Then going WAY back, I remember from the elementary level shelves in the Logan Utah public library something called "Little Ball from Mars" ... really no idea who wrote that! Then someone (Ms. Kuhner at UCB) mentioned the Farley Island Stallion book, which I vaguely remember, but that brought back the Freddy books (by Walter Brooks, maybe?) -- talking animals in one sense in the realm of (very juvenile) fantasy, but several of the later books featured Martians -- another one or two featured a mechanical person (not a real robot though, there was a rooster inside driving it), so do they count? JBL UUCP: {harvard, husc6, etc.}!bbn!levin ARPA: levin@bbn.com ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 3:51 +0800 From: Natalie Prowse Subject: FIRST SF Reading all those comments on everyone's first experiences with SF brought back some long forgotten memories....(If you can stand one more person's reminiscing...) I think the first Sf story I ever read was Madeline L'Engle's 'A Wrinkle In Time'. I was an avid reader from the age of 5, and I think I stumbled on this story at about the age of 7 or so. THAT got me hooked on SF. I recall something vaguely about the Mushroom Planet series, so I must have read it too, and I also have strong recollections of reading 'Red Planet' - which hooked me on RH for the next few years. I also remember 2 short SF stories in our elemetary school Reader - 'The Fun They Had',by Clarke, and a story taken from the Martian Chronicles about a family who moves to mars (I can't remember the name). Maybe only the B.C. (Canada) schools had this reader in their curriculum. Anyway, those two stories hooked me on A.C. Clarke and Ray Bradbury.('Something Wicked Thisway Comes' scared the Begeebies out of me!!) By high school, I was devouring about 4 to 5 novels a week, and almost exclusively SF. I remember having read everything Wyndham wrote, by age 13, after reading 'The Chrysalids' in grade 7 (It was also required reading in gr 10 here). My introduction to Fantasy, like so many of you, came with the Narnia series. One of my teachers began reading a chapter a day of 'The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe', and I was hooked. Then I discovered Tolkien, and until I was about 11 or 12, I was certain that Middle Earth *HAD* to have existed somewhere....so I searched old maps of England's coastline....(*WILD* imagination I had). In senior high, after devouring every SF/F book in the library, the librarian got me into Stephen R. Donaldson's Trilogy, starting with 'Lord Foul's Bane'. Great Stuff! I have often been teased by some of my friends, because since the age of about 12 or 13, I have read less than a dozen NON-SF books (fiction)! - Even in High School, we were often given a reading selection, and I would always choose an SF book for the dreaded 'book report'. Call me narrow-minded, but I just haven't found the Non-sf stuff as enjoyable. Its funny, but the thing I miss most now, when I think back, is having the TIME to read like I used to. What with a full time job, family, etc.. there just isn't the time anymore, and I really miss it. Now, at best, I can finish a novel in a month or so....Having the time to read, WITHOUT interruption, is a very, very valuable luxury. ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 87 18:05:07 GMT From: bayes@hpfcrj.hp.com (Scott Bayes) Subject: Re: Re: First Science Fiction (spoilers) I think my "hooker" was _Sons of the Ocean Deep_ (? title), by, by, by... (How embarrassing, I've forgotten). Techno-battles on the ocean floor, brave heroes, and "greater love hath no man than this...". I was about twelve or thirteen, and had read some Tom Swift, but wa not yet addicted. I think _Red Planet_ (Heinlein) was in there early, and caused my ultimate descent to the nether regions. Scott Bayes hpfcla!bayes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 May 87 08:31:31 EDT From: Wes Miller Subject: First SF My first SF novel (more than 25 years ago) was "Storm Over Warlock" by Andre Norton. At the time it was enough to get me hooked. Athough, at the time the local library had only one five foot shelf allocated to SF literature so my choices were not that good. I would recommend it to younger readers as a first book. As I recall it wasn't too heavy and had plenty of suspense. I must confess that I have not re-read this book since then,, on purpose, mainly, because I don't want to spoil my recollections of what I thought then was a great book. Times and tastes change and get more sophisticated. Wes Miller ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 01:56:38 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!bms@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: First Science Fiction Read TO me: Lord of the Rings, when I was three or four. I suspect that Rudyard Kipling stories and lovely pieces like Oscar Wilde's The Happy Prince had something to do with the route my early entertainment/education took. Reading on my own, I started my own way through LotR when I was eight, but I didn't link it into the sf genre/s until at least a year after I'd identified the stuff. And I got Narnia as a gift, and my mother contributed Earthsea. Visiting my dad every other week when I was ten or eleven usually included a trip to the bookstore (the one at which I have just recently started working full time! :^), but we got moving back into sf when I found LeGuin's Rocannon's World on his shelf when I'd read the evening's purchase far too quickly... And then we had Niven and Pournelle and some other neat stuff (PANSHIN!) read to us for months... I'm a bit ashamed to admit that McCaffery's Dragonflight was what got me motivated to do more of my own reading. I like the book, but it's a damn romance and I was so avidly against `that girl stuff'. Oh well... Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 13:36:23 GMT From: seismo!garfield!sean1@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: First Science Fiction john@frog.UUCP writes: >An addendum to my previous message: now that another message >reminds me, I also read the Tom Swift series. And promptly forgot >about them. Perhaps "unmemorable science fiction" (as opposed to >unreadable) needs to be discussed to death? ;-) Nonsense. I loved Tom Swift. That was my first exposure to Science Fiction. (SF or Sci-Fi? Which did we agree on?) :-> Tom Swift, of course, was the Hardy Boys of SF. I also, 'round the same time, saw little snippets of Star Trek on TV. We couldn't get the program because of TERRIBLE reception. (Little outport...) But the little bits I did catch intrigued me. I wanted to know more. And 'round that very same time, I remember watching re-runs of THUNDERBIRDS. That is the show that hooked me on SF. I loved it. I used to get up 7:00 on Saturdays, (I was 7 years old) and watch it. I was absolutely incensed when they took it off the air. I used to get some green construction paper and build little replicas of Thunderbird 2, my favorite, that actually dropped its payload, and it even had things in the cargo sections. I built long lines of cargo pods, each with some exciting cardboard contraption in it. Anyway, that is the story, Doc, am I nutso? Sean Huxter P.O. Box 366 Springdale NF, Canada UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1 CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 21:41:40 GMT From: bryan@druhi.att.com (BryanJT) Subject: First Science Fiction Aw, what the heck. I'll throw mine in, too. The first science fiction I ever read was (as seems to be the case with many of us) a book whose title and author I no longer remember. It was about some people who travel in an interstellar ship of some kind to (I think) Arcturus, where there discover some creatures who live in the asteroid belt and communicate with each other via biological lasers or something. I seem to recall that they managed to get hit by a meteor (the patching kit was handy) in the course of all of this. I got the book from the Scholastic Book Service (or something like that) who sold us school kids books for really cheap prices and delivered them right to the school for us. It was either in third grade or maybe a little later. John T. Bryan AT&T Information Systems Denver, CO 80234 USENET: ...!ihnp4!druhi!bryan PHONE: (303) 538-5172 ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 87 21:55:51 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!bms@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: First sf. Oh, yes, the memories come... While reading other postings on the subject, I realized that there had been obvious influences other than LotR when I was a wee one that prepared me to my later introduction to the genre/s. Astro Boy, in b&w I believe (that's the way I remember it, at any rate, but I suspect that was our TV). And DOES ANYONE OUT THERE REMEMBER A CHILDREN'S BOOK (hardcover, picture book) called POOKIE, THE FLYING RABBIT?!!! I also always favoured books with princes and horses -and the occasional princess- in them, and always wanted to play a prince (whether there was one in the script or not) in backyard plays. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 87 02:35:12 GMT From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!sam@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: First Science Fiction Like certain other people, I was reading science fiction long before I realized it. The first time that I knew that I was reading science fiction, and what made me search out other s.f. books, was when I was given on my tenth birthday "Time For The Stars", "Farmer In The Sky", and "The Rolling Stones" (all by RAH). In the wisdom of old age (21 years :-)), however, I recall that long before this I had read the Narnia series (and thought that "The Last Battle" was a BAD book), lots of Andre Norton (particularly "The Jargoon Pard"), "The Lord of The Rings", and the Tom Swift series, but for some reason it had never crossed my mind that the library had put space ship stickers on all of these books, and that perhaps I should read more books with those stickers on them. As another case study, my father (an English Ph.D.) first discovered the field when a friend read him Avram Davidson's "The Pheonix and the Mirror." Readings of R.A.H., and others, failed to convince him that science fiction was interesting, but the first two books of Hodgell's "GodStalk" series have convinced him that fantasy is worth reading. At last report he was searching for some fantasy short stories to give to his 2nd year English class! Sam Weber UUCP: {ihnp4 utzoo decwrl uw-beaver}!utcsri!sam ARPA: sam@csri.toronto.edu CSNET: sam@toronto ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 2 Jun 87 0800-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #265 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jun 87 0800-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #265 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 2 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 265 Today's Topics: Books - E. E. "Doc" Smith (7 msgs) & Sexism in SF (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 May 87 03:33:09 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: "Dragon Lensman" and other non-Doc Smith Lensman books rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd): >john13@garfield.UUCP writes: >> PS "The Dragon Lensman" is the only Lens book I have ever read. I >> thought it was all the things and more that people have been >> complaining about. > > It should be noted that "The Dragon Lensman" is NOT by Doc Smith, >author of the original Lensman series. It's by David Kyle. It's >not 30+ year old pulp fiction--it's 1980 vintage. Kyle's sequel, >"Lensman from Rigel", was even more incomprehensible. I'm still >not sure what all those black holes and Ordovik crystals had to do >with anything. I'm not sure what universe Kyle is writing about, >but it isn't the one Doc Smith wrote about. It just looks like the >same one to the casual observer. How about Z-LENSMAN? (Wherein he does to Nadreck what he did to Worsel and Tregonsee.) I have two major complaints with Kyle's interpretation of the Lensman universe, one is like scratching a blackboard with your fingernails, the other is either a misguided attempt to correct a Bad Thing or a total misunderstanding of what was going on: <1> Kyle seems to think that ``Clear ether!'' is a command: ``Get off the thought-waves!'' It was not used this way in the siz *real* Lensman books; and in fact is shown to be totally different in meaning in GALACTIC PATROL: ``Clear ether -- or rather, I hope it's full of pirates by tomorrow morning.'' <2> Lensman Kallatra and Kyle's justification (attributed to Mentor) for her. The problem with it is that the reason there is only one woman Lensman is to make everyone think that the Children of the Lens are natural results of the union of two Lensmen -- rather than what they really were, the result of a selective breeding program. (The ``misguided attempt'': I personally feel that Drounli, Kriedegan, Nedanillor, and Brolenteen *blew* *it*; hiding a breeding program is no reason to bar women from the high posts. There are times when I sympathize with the Lyranians.) Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, OH 44060 +01 216 255 1080 {decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 87 03:26:48 GMT From: SSKATZ@pucc.princeton.edu (Seth Katz) Subject: re: Dragon Lensman? john13@garfield.UUCP writes: >PS "The Dragon Lensman" is the only Lens book I have ever read. I >thought it Until this moment, I have never heard of "The Dragon Lensman". Was it written by Doc Smith? Harold Feld BITNET: 6103014@PUCC UUCP: ...allegra!psuvax1!pucc.bitnet!6103014 ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 87 08:56:25 GMT From: gatech!gt-stratus!chen@RUTGERS.EDU (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: "Dragon Lensman" and other non-Doc Smith Lensman books allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: ><2> Lensman Kallatra and Kyle's justification (attributed to >Mentor) for her. The problem with it is that the reason there is >only one woman Lensman is to make everyone think that the Children >of the Lens are natural results of the union of two Lensmen -- >rather than what they really were, the result of a selective >breeding program. (The ``misguided attempt'': I personally feel >that Drounli, Kriedegan, Nedanillor, and Brolenteen *blew* *it*; >hiding a breeding program is no reason to bar women from the high >posts. There are times when I sympathize with the Lyranians.) BTW, Spoilers abound ahead ... Urm, I'm not sure I agree. I think it's more due to the way Smith set up a restriction in the Lensman universe. I think he decided that the minds of men and women are different. A Lens can only be used if the attuned mind meets a minimal set of requirements. If one of these requirements/criterion is a trait that is much more suited to the male mind-type than the female mind-type then as the race develops, you'll see male Lensmen first, then both male and female. Most likely, the human race (and probably others) had developed to the point where a small number of the males could use a Lens and none of the females (except for the end-product of the female side of the breeding program). I believe that by Kinnison's time, Earth was only graduating 100 (or less??) male Lensmen per year. That's not much for an entire planet -- especially when you consider that in his universe at that time, everyone and his brother wanted to be Lensman. BTW, while Smith may have portrayed a sexist society, his lead women characters were certainly no shrinking violets. They uniformly handle situations that would turn most people into useless wrecks. If they do appear less capable or emotionally weaker than their male counterparts, it's fairly obvious that the difference is only a matter of training -- e.g. the guy's trained for nasty, death-dealing situations whereas the girl hasn't. And the female criminals are *always* competent. Also, check my memory on "Masters of the Vortex". I know the computer expert -- described as the best analog computer designer around -- was a woman. His women can be violent too. I recall Dorothy Seaton blowing people away with a .32 caliber pistol. Not to mention the 4 female Children. The only one with more than a trace of a real killer instinct was one of the girls. Who knows? We might get a better idea on Smith's real opinions by looking at the Children -- who were, after all, the ultimate specimens of the human race. It wouldn't suprise me if his depiction of society wasn't a "utopia" but rather an extrapolation of what a society influenced by a breeding program would be like based on what he saw in his current society. As others have said, I don't think we can blame him for not having enough vision. And it *is* Space Opera, for crying out loud!!! You want good literature, go read "Pride and Prejudice" instead. Ray Chen chen@gatech ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 87 21:38:10 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: re: Dragon Lensman? SSKATZ@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Seth Katz): >Until this moment, I have never heard of "The Dragon Lensman". Was >it writen by Doc Smith? No, by David Kyle, with authorization by the Smith estate. Give it a miss; having read all three of his efforts, I can see why Chris Tolkien won't authorize LORD OF THE RINGS follow-ons. Kyle has no feel whatsoever for what Doc was doing -- he shatters the structure of Smith's universe in a number of ways. If you absolutely MUST read them, they are: THE DRAGON LENSMAN LENSMAN FROM RIGEL Z-LENSMAN one for each of the non-human Second Stage Lensmen. Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, OH 44060 +01 216 255 1080 {decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 87 10:39:31 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey Subject: Original version of Skylark of Space The three hardcover editions of SoS have the original version. The imprints are Buffalo Book Co. (1st ed.), Thomas Hadley (2nd ed., with nice illo plates), and FFF. Buffalo Book Co. is also Thomas Hadley. The original magazine publication was in Amazing in 1928. It was the cover story for the first part of the serial, but many people think the illo goes with another story from that issue of Amazing--a story about a guy named Buck Rogers. Because "Armageddon 2417 [the date may be wrong]" is in that issue, you'd have to pony up $$$ (> $100) for it, so one of the hardcover editions would be cheaper. Info supplied in part by Ken Johnson, long-time cohort of the notorious Jerry Boyajian. ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 1987 12:56 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: lensmen I read some years ago that after the Skylark series turned out to be successful, Smith then sat down, drafted out, and started to write the entire lensman series. Supposedly, he finished CotL as Triplanetary was being printed. Since CotL was published only a year after SSL, it seems likely that he wrote them both. I also read (on sf-lovers I think) that supposedly the new lensman novel, the one not published, dealt with the "new menace to civilization" alluded to at the end of CotL. It wasn't published as it was felt to have been too depressing: humanity and most of the other familiar races dead or dying, and Kit and his sisters powerless in the face of whatever was about to happen. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 87 13:24:42 -0700 From: Jim Hester To: sgreen@cs.ucla.EDU Cc: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.EDU Subject: Re: Lost E. E. 'Doc' Smith work I would be very surprised to learn that the Kinnison children married each other for lack of anyone else. That would constitute a blatant inconsistency in Smith's work. Mentor very definitely discussed the issue of mates with one of the girls, resulting in her realizing that she was complete in herself: she did not need a mate. I believe it was implied that this applied to all of the children (at least, it was NOT implied that the one girl was special in this respect). Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 87 22:59:31 EDT From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Heinlein quote I was originally told of the "Lensman incest" theory by my husband, who has read all the Lensman books and Heinlein's collection Expanded Universe. It's pretty clear from context that the unpublishable novel was unpublishable during Smith's lifetime due to the violation of some sort of taboo; considering the sort of reasonably racy sex scene you were getting about the time of Smith's death (and the reasonably sickening descriptions of syphilitic whores in such classics as Baudelaire), about the only taboo left was incest, or bestiality. Since I can't imagine the point of Arisia's great experiment being a Kinnison mating with Worsel of Valeria, that leaves the Kinnisons grokking each other in the fullest sense of the concept. Today I doubt there is anything that cannot be published, although certain themes have more trouble than others getting published (homosexual rape, our old friend bestiality, sex of the type advocated by the friendly folk of the North American Man/Boy Love Association, though not gang rape, sadism toward women - but I digress). If there *is* such a manuscript, it could probably be published today without any serious violation of taboos - after all, if Star Trek fen could get away with some of the Kirk/Spock porn that was loose a few years ago and not be sued by Paramount, anything goes. Lisa Evans Malden, MA ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 87 10:58 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Joan D. Vinge article Una, Thankyouthankyouthankyou. I intend to show this to a number of people, as it says in print a lot of what I've been saying or hearing...especially the part about the "Heinlein woman". Where and when was that talk given? Has it been published (so I can suggest folk buy the journal/book? Now, for a comment on what I've seen today: In a way, the "Heinlein woman" is SuperWoman, someone trying to succeed in a male commercial/business world, by male rules, but still needs to satisfy the socialization that says "A woman is nurturing, cuddly, sexy, and creates a pleasant home for her family." I can see Friday deciding to satisfy that particular socialization demand to prove that she can be as good as any "ordinary human woman" at being a "real woman". Women get sold Wonder Woman, men get sold SuperMan (the all powerful Man of Steel) as life goals. Many people who reject these rolemodels, but wish not to be seen as "failures" spend a lot ot time & energy justifying that rejection. There are the truly strong people who don't care how people see them as long as they're allowed to live their lives according to their beliefs, but these folk are rare, and I'm not always of their number. If we accept the postulate that Joan gives, that "feminism is a kind of humanism", then feminists are people who work to show children that these are only sterotypes, and NOT goals that must be met, and to show adults & society that not conforming to either of these sterotypes does not make them failures as men or as women. Andre Norton's THE WITCHES OF WARLOCK was the first sf book I remember reading. It's the sequel to Storm over Warlock. I was in 6th grade, in Albuquerque, and once again, I was the new kid in school, and didn't quite fit in with all these kids who'd known each other since kindergarten (I was an AirForceBrat). Andre Norton's work reinforced & strengthened a lot of what what my parents were telling me about what I could do as an adult. Parents of Miracles of Modern Medicine* are often so glad to have their offspring alive and whole that the kids are told "you can do anything if you work at it/want to badly enough/etc--the sky's the limit". I'm not aware of either of my parents trying to limit my scope as an adult--they were always proud of what we could do. Marina Fournier Arpa: *Parents were Rh-factor incompatible. I'm one of two that lived past three days, out of 16 tries. ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 87 14:10:57 GMT From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jon Meltzer) Subject: Re: Sexism in Science Fiction flak@slovax.UUCP (Dan Flak) writes: >Well, at least Asimov does have one female hero in his Foundation >"Trillogy" Bayta Darrel (sp?) who defeats the Mule. Her >grand-daughter also figures prominately in the preservation of the >Second Foundation. (BTW: From other readings of Asimov's works - I >think the grand-daughter is a fictionalized version of Asimov's own >daughter). Nice idea. Unfortunately, "And Now You Don't " (the second half of Second Foundation) was originally published in 1949, and Robyn Asimov was born in 1956. ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 02:37:14 GMT From: schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz) Subject: Re: Sexism in Science Fiction milne%ICSE.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes: > - a better shot than either Luke or Han -- I can't offhand recall > any shots she fired, in any of the 3 films so far, that missed > -- excepting only a couple in Empire where she was firing blind. > Even guided by the Force, Luke could barely do as well. Obviously. Remember that she is Luke's sister and the force is strong in here as well as in him. Even without formal training, I can believe that she would be a skilled warrior. Anyway, she probably had expert training in small arms, under the reasonable assumtion that the aristocracy got that kind of training. Scott Schwartz {{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!schwartz ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 2 Jun 87 0815-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #266 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jun 87 0815-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #266 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 2 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 266 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov (7 msgs) & Card (2 msgs) & Foster (2 msgs) & Friedman & Pournelle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 May 87 02:52:23 GMT From: schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz) Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's Subject: Mega-ology PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes: > moss!hropus!prc@RUTGERS.EDU (pete clark) lists a sequence of > Asimov books that form a series: Ok. Remember the "Lucky Starr" series? It was a series of nominally children's SF that Asimov wrote at some point. I've always liked it. I believe it could be worked in between "Robots and Empire" and "Pebble in the Sky", with some suspension of disbelief to ease the process. (i.e. the enemy is from Sirius, rather than Aurora or the other known Spacer worlds, some of which are given contemporary designations in "Foundation and Earth" based on more plausible stars.) Comments? Scott Schwartz {{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!schwartz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 May 87 09:00:34 EDT From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: Re: Asimov's Empire There was a short story set in the Trantor/Empire/Foundation universe which concearned the only intelligent nonhuman species ever found. I can't remember the title, but it was collected in _The Early Asimov_ (I think). The story explains what happened to them and why they did not figure in any of the other story in this universe. (Although he could still bring them back if he wanted to). Ted Nolan ted@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 15:57:16 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!crash!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. From: Smith) Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's Subject: Mega-ology schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz) writes: > Ok. Remember the "Lucky Starr" series? It was a series of > nominally children's SF that Asimov wrote at some point. I've > always liked it. I believe it could be worked in between "Robots > and Empire" and "Pebble in the Sky", with some suspension of > disbelief to ease the process. (i.e. the enemy is from Sirius, > rather than Aurora or the other known Spacer worlds, some of which > are given contemporary designations in "Foundation and Earth" > based on more plausible stars.) Comments? No, non, nyet, please! There's nothing worse than watching these authors try and bend together all their different stories into a single universe. Let's not add to the problem! I haven't read the Asimov transition stories, but the ones Heinlein wrote (Number of the Beast, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls) are horrible. The Asimov books seem to have been written separately, with different universes in mind. Any ideas on just why Asimov would want to force-fit all his stories together? Yech! David L. Smith sdcsvax!sdamos!sdeggo!dave ihnp4!jack!man!sdeggo!dave hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave sdeggo!dave@sdamos.ucsd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 87 03:07:15 GMT From: schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz) Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's Subject: Mega-ology dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes: > The Asimov books seem to have been written separately, with > different universes in mind. Any ideas on just why Asimov would > want to force-fit all his stories together? Yech! Good point. My feeling is that he got nostalgic about it all these last few years. You know, he realized that it could be done and so he did it. (Now you've got me going...) By far the most unsatisfying part of the whole attempt was his introduction of the 'eternals' (from "The End of Eternity") in "Foundation's Edge". Purportedly (as stated in TEOE) the entire existence of the eternals was removed from our universe... so how could they be known of? Scott Schwartz {{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!schwartz ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 87 13:44:59 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's Subject: Mega-ology dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes: >schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz) writes: >> Ok. Remember the "Lucky Starr" series? ... I believe it could >> be worked in between "Robots and Empire" and "Pebble in the >> Sky"... >No, non, nyet, please! There's nothing worse than watching these >authors try and bend together all their different stories into a >single universe. Let's not add to the problem! I haven't read the >Asimov transition stories, but the ones Heinlein wrote (Number of >the Beast, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls) are horrible. Agreed! "Foundation's Egde", that short story in novel's clothing, was not a bad story - would have been reasonable as one fourth of a Foundation novel - but the bending and twisting to make everything fit was pitiful to read. >The Asimov books seem to have been written separately, with >different universes in mind. Any ideas on just why Asimov would >want to force-fit all his stories together? Yech! Easier than to think up a new story. Some years ago I dropped a once favorite western author because he had begun to take old short stories and turn them into complete books with the excuse that "he had not known the full story when he first wrote aboute it". Ugh! At least Asimov hasen't started that yet. Hans Rancke University of Copenhagen mcvax!diku!rancke ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 15:57:00 GMT From: quirk@europa.unm.edu Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's Subject: Mega-ology There seems to be one book missing from this series: The Rest of the Robots It contains some more Susan Calvin stories (Including the second attempt at (Asimovian) hyperspace). Well, that's my $0.02. T. Kogoma quirk@europa.unm.edu {gatech:ucbvax:unm-la}!hc!hi!unmvax!quirk@europa ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 87 18:19:10 GMT From: lll-lcc!leadsv!berg@RUTGERS.EDU (Gail Berg) Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's Subject: Mega-ology I've read a couple of the Lucky Starr books and enjoyed them. Another set of books he wrote, with his wife Janet, is about Norby, a robot with an interesting history. ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 21:43:20 GMT From: princeton!hhb!rob@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert R Stegmann) Subject: Speaker for the Dead Hi folks, I just finished _Speaker for the Dead_, sequel to _Ender's Game_, both by Orson Scott Card, and the latter the winner of various awards. In summary, I enjoyed it. In fact, I thought it far superior to Ender's Game! More texture, better "crafted." At some points Card approached the quality of Herbert for intricacy of plot, and Asimov for well-constructed mystery. Hey, I enjoyed E'sG, too, but SftD is less likely to draw criticism for appealing only on the basis of childish wish-fulfillment. And I hate it when people knock SF for that. I mean, how much popular fiction fails to appeal either because you want to be the hero, or because you are glad you're not the hero? I'd like to toss a coupla ideas at ya. [No real spoilers below; won't make sense until you read the book anyway.] 1) Did the Lusitanians' "treaty" with the Piggies strike anyone besides me as paralleling that of the early American settlers with the American Indians? Do you suppose the parallel might occur to anyone in the story, given that American history is ancient history indeed at that point? How about to Demosthenes? What do you suppose would happen if the Piggies got hold of a history text, and made the connection for themselves? Seems to me they would decide they, as a race, would have to be very subtle in their dealings with Humanity, so as not to endanger themselves, but also not to be exploited or pushed out of existence. I, for one, would like to see some of their enigmaticism restored. 2) Does anybody besides me feel a little uncomfortable about trusting the Hive Queen? I mean, doesn't Ender seem pretty thoroughly brainwashed? I mean, it's not as though he's an impartial observer now, huh? 3) I'm looking forward to installment no. 3. Gotta happen - look at all the dangly bits: - Starways fleet on its way - Valentine on her way - Miro going off to meet Valentine - Jane's book - Hive Queen - etc etc etc Anybody got any poop on the release date? Robert Stegmann {allegra,ihnp4,decvax}!philabs!hhb!rob ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 87 20:31:17 GMT From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney) Subject: Re: Speaker for the Dead Norman Spinrad notwithstanding, I enjoyed both _Ender's Game_ and _Speaker_, the latter more than the former. rob@hhb.UUCP (Robert R Stegmann) writes: >3) I'm looking forward to installment no. 3. Gotta happen - look > at all the dangly bits:... > Anybody got any poop on the release date? I personally do not feel that a sequel is necessary, although I suspect that when it comes out, it will be quite good. The third volume of the Ender saga will be entitled _Ender's Children_. It is not currently under production. Scott said recently that although he has outlined the novel several times, he has not set Word One on paper; he doesn't feel that he is a good enough writer yet to do the book justice. Besides, he's spending most of his time working on reviews (including, of course, his review magazine _Short Form_) and the _Tales of Alvin the Maker_ series (a six-volume fantasy epic set in an alternate XIXth century America), the first volume of which (_Seventh Son_) is due out in hardback late in June. Kevin J. Maroney ...!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!kjm ------------------------------ Date: Thu 28 May 1987 14:26 CDT From: Darrell Johns Subject: MAGIC and SCIENCE Another book (or series of books) that deal with science and magic is the SPELLSINGER by Alan Dean Foster. In the SPELLSINGER, what is science in our world is magic in the world in which this story is set. The story revolves around a grad student who is gated from our world into the other world and his adventures as he tries to adjust to his new surroundings while trying to get home. I am midway through the third book of the five book series and while it is more fantasy than science fiction, Foster manages to work science into the story as magic nicely. I have enjoyed the series very much so far and would recommend it to others. As a side note, this story by Foster isn't a rewrite of movie or book, this stuff is a Foster original. Darrell Johns. BITNET: XDWJ@ECNCDC.BITNET ARPANET: XDWJ%ECNCDC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU U.S. SNAIL: Educational Computing Network Cottonwood Office Center 1 Cottonwood Road Edwardsville, IL 62025 ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 20:11:31 GMT From: seismo!sun!apple!tecot@RUTGERS.EDU (Ed Tecot) Subject: Re: MAGIC and SCIENCE From: Darrell Johns > Another book (or series of books) that deal with science and >magic is the SPELLSINGER by Alan Dean Foster. In the SPELLSINGER, >what is science in our world is magic in the world in which this >story is set. An excellent book. As a matter of fact, I read this due to a recommendation from this newsgroup. The cover says "book 1", are there sequels to this story? ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 01:11:14 GMT From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) Subject: Re: Review: _In Conquest Born_ (MAJOR SPOILERSs) perry@inteloa.intel.com writes: >Yes, I liked this style very much. It gives the author a way to >track a character for a long time and show psychological changes >without invoking the usual `inside knowledge' routine. In fact, in >the whole book there are only I should have mentioned, though, that I thought Friedman [btw, I have no idea if C.S. Friedman is a man or a woman] opted for just telling the reader something just a few times too many. Admittedly, in this type of book [what I like to call the funny name genre], this is often necessary, especially in a book of this size, but just a little more showing and a little less telling would've been nice. >Interesting. What episode struck you as `utterly dumb'? I've just >finished the book yesterday, and on first reading I found nothing >qualifying. Boring and somewhat irrelevant perhaps, but dumb? I forget. I knew when I was reading it, but I can't remember. It had a lot to do with the melodrama trap in the funny name genre. >I don't know about you, but to me it feels... wrong, somehow. Me too. >I was *hoping* for *synthesis*, that they would turn their >`honorable hatred' to constructive ends, recognizing that their >love-hatred was benefiting them both (and, perhaps, their >cultures). I was *fearing* that Friedman would just kill him off >(too simple, that). But this? I think any ending would have been disappointing in some way. Most of the obvious ones would have come off as just plain stupid, and I think that's something Friedman wanted to avoid. This one comes across, to me, as being incomplete. I think that anyone reading the book, though, will have an ending or two in mind before the end of the book. I know I had a few, my favorite of which had the two of them having a kid. I found the actual ending disappointing because I felt as though I had been lied to - Friedman basically set up a this-universe-isn't-big- enough-for-the-two-of-us situation, and then didn't let us cash in. But that along isn't good enough, there are plenty of rabbits that could have been pulled out of the hat. Friedman, I think, just didn't succeed in making the reader feel as though anything was resolved - there were too many overtones of destiny and the future for the story to end where it did. >Or is it - dread thought - just an after-the-fact alteration to >prepare for a sequel? Arrrgh! I think there are other endings that would have provided better avenues towards a sequel. >I should add, per explanation, that throughout the book I've kept >my sympathies for Zatar, as well as his enemy. Does that make me >emotionally unacceptable? No! I think that that was one of the central concerns of the book - that you shouldn't pick sides between the two of them. Another ending I would have liked would have been the heavily-hinted-at unresolved ending where it seems as though Zatar is out of her reach forever - that would have left the thing open to a sequel, and, I think, cashed in on the feel of the book. That mixed with another confrontation on caliber with the one from the middle... And despite everything, it wouldn't have been more unsatisfying than what actually happened. In any case, the chronological ending aside, I thought that the epilogue was extremely well done, and fit just right. It was another one of those episodes that wasn't quite, but almost could have been a short story in itself. I would be extremely interested in finding out what was the first part of the book Friedman wrote, or what the idea was that inspired the book. There are so many different idea banging around, I'm led to wonder which insignificant detail set it all in motion. Anyhow...it was a good book anyway, despite the last chapter, the beginning of which was very good. Y'know, just the last little bit of that chapter was all that seemed off, too...well the Epilogue was the last bit I read and it was excellent. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri 29 May 87 15:21:23-PDT From: Haruka Takano Subject: Janissaries III In case anyone's interested, Pournelle's "Janissaries III: The Storms of Victory" has been out in hardcover for at least two weeks now. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 2 Jun 87 0833-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #267 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jun 87 0833-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #267 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 2 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 267 Today's Topics: Films - Fantasy Movies & Terminator & 2001 & Eraserhead (2 msgs) & The Raven & Japanimation (3 msgs) & Star Trek IV (2 msgs), Television - Hitchhiker's Guide on TV (3 msgs) & Star Trek: TNG ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 May 87 21:31:18 GMT From: rochester!ur-cvsvax!marcus@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Levin) Subject: Re: fantasy movies I just read an article that mentioned "The Dark Crystal" and realized how much I liked it as a fantasy movie. The muppets/puppets were good too. On the topic of puppet movies, "The Neverending Story" was a good tale. Especially for kids.. Particularly innovative was an evil, that was within the main character, and the concept that in our modern day and age technology -- fantasy is dying. a message we should all take to heart. I just got another bit of inspiration from the above comment. Disney has been turning out GOOD fantasy for decades. Except I am afraid to admit "The Sword and the Stone" (except the battle of magic between Merlin and Madam Mim - but see an earlier posting of mine), and the live-action films. Damn there was another one but I cannot remember it now. oh well. Marcus @ur-cvsvax ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 87 15:05:34 EDT From: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: About Terminator: One late night on TV, I saw a VERY BAD movie (circa 1955) called CYBORG 2087. It starred Michael Rennie as a cyborg sent into the past to change history and prevent the use of an invention called "radio-telepathy". Which was used by a future government to control its populace. Another cyborg is sent after him, but goodness triumphs in the end. It seems to me that in anywhere but a court of law, the idea of cybernetic beings going to the past to change the present is a pretty generic concept in science fiction. Matthew Saroff ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 87 07:40:50 GMT From: ames!oliveb!sci!ken@RUTGERS.EDU (Ken Karakotsios) Subject: Re: 2001 Although I would bet that all the random colors were put in for no better reasom than "they looked good", the very last part where Bowman is in the room may have some substance. He is apparently going through a metamorphasis, changing into the "star child" or whatever it was called. Kubrik seemed to be trying to show a non-linear flow of time. Bowman seemed to be present at the same time (for the observer) at several different points of time in his metamorphasis. Perhaps this all was to convince you that the monoliths were created by an intelligence which not only knew how to control space and time, but also stayed at a few really nice hotels over the years. Ken Karakotsios Silicon Compilers Systems Corp. sci!ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 87 11:57:35 EDT From: Jeremy Bornstein Subject: Eraserhead (SPOILERS) I recently saw Eraserhead for the third time this past Saturday (second time was on Friday) and I think that I've finally figured it out. The movie tries to show that LIFE IS A DISEASE which we spread by SEX. A nice, sick premise. In the movie the true disgusting-disease quality of life begins to break through to our level of reality, starting with the baby, then a little later with Harry (remember when his neighbor sees him with a bizarro head?). All through the film, Harry exerts a twisting influence on the people around him, who are strange to begin with. I could go on for a bit more, but I won't unless someone wants to hear it: mail me if you like, and I'll rant in private, although I'll be glad to discuss in public. (END SPOILERS) A suggestion to anyone who is going to see the film: Drink plenty of coffee, as the film is rather, well, agonizingly slow. Coffee helped me greatly on the second and third viewings, as opposed to the first viewing when I was falling asleep. I have a friend who claims that the film shoves you through a time warp: it only lasts an hour and 25 minutes, but it takes at least a full 2 hours out of your life. Jeremy Bornstein ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 87 15:50:56 GMT From: mimsy!nbs-amrf!warsaw@RUTGERS.EDU (Warsaw) Subject: Re: Eraserhead RMALOUF@SBCCMAIL.BITNET writes: > The whole section from when the "hero's" head pops if in the > radiator after listening to the cauliflower-faced woman singing, > falls into the street, is taken to a pawn shop by a small boy, and > made into pencil erasers is probably Yeah, but what about the part where "our hero" cuts the bandages off his mutant chicken baby and all his chunky cottage cheese guts come spilling out? Incredible bit of cinematic brilliance. Lynch is a genius! |:=) warsaw ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 May 87 09:47:45 EDT From: Wes Miller Subject: Movies - The Raven The movie "The Raven" was recently mentioned. This movie starred Boris Karloff, Vincent Price, Peter Lorre and a very young Jack Nicholson. As I recall it is an extremely funny movie with Karloff and Price a wizards in competition and each using Lorre as a middle man. A lot of fun...especially the wizards duel at the end. Wes Miller ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 87 11:57:46+0900 From: tamori@sonyvd.sony.junet (Hirofumi Tamori) Subject: Japanimation Hayao Miyazaki( Of course you know? the director of 'Nausikaa','Laputa'... Do not pronounce as 'Hey-yeah-oh', his name sounds nearly 'Ha-ya-o'.)'s new animation movie is coming next spring. The title is "Tonari no Totoro"(if translating in English without thought, 'Totoro next door' ). It is neither an adventure nor a Sci-Fi, perhaps it is a kind of faily tale. According to its outline appeared in animation magazines, the opening is as following; two little sisters met a very strange creature on a rainy day, and they called him 'Totoro'... (Recently, the word 'creature' often means 'monster' I think. 'Totoro' is NOT a monster but a sort of faily judging from the illustration in the article on the magazines. ) In the article, Miyazaki says that he cherished the theme of this picture for a long time from his days of an animator. I am longing for the completion of the movie( but more than three quarters of a year it takes ). Thank you for reading my poor typing. Please use your power of inference on reading my awkward English !! Hirofumi Tamori tamori@sonyvd.sony.junet ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 22:08:40 GMT From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura) Subject: Re: New movie by Miyazaki... I've just seen some magazines on Nausicaa and I'm very impressed with the artwork. I'm looking forward to finding some way of renting it. Cheers! Jim Omura 2A King George's Drive Toronto (416) 652-3880 ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 87 02:20:02 GMT From: princeton!dartvax!holly@RUTGERS.EDU (Holly Cabell) Subject: Re: New movie by Miyazaki... jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes: >I've just seen some magazines on Nausicaa and I'm very impressed >with the artwork. I'm looking forward to finding some way of >renting It's not really all that new. I've seen it and it's very good. The bearded people got to me after a while, but the plot and the artwork are very good. The main character has some really fun flying scenes that make me wish I could have a machine like she does. There are also some fantastic shoot 'em up scenes in the clouds that are fascinating. Hope you get a copy soon, 'cuz you'll love it. By the way, if you like Japanese animation, check out a nationwide group (here in the US) called C/FO, Cartoon/Fantasy Organization. You'll find a lot of people with that interest as well as some good connections for getting films like Nausicaa. If you want the address, mail me a not and I'll see if I can find it. Ian Cabell holly@dartvax ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 87 16:13:25 GMT From: im4u!milano!mcc-pp!ables@RUTGERS.EDU (King Ables) Subject: Re: STIV complaints 6062871 (Raj Manandhar) writes: >sutherla (I. Sutherland) writes: >> Also, why is the new Enterprise a Constitution Class ship? I >> thought that they were obsolete. > Indeed. And I thought that keeping the same name was pretty tacky, > but probably necessary for the audience. But did you notice the > new identification number? NCC-1701A, no less (the old one was > 1701)! That was too much. But at least they revamped the > interior. I don't recall them EVER saying the Constitution Class was obsolete. They said the Enterprise was 20 years old and there would be no refit. This isn't to say that they weren't building new ones (which in fact, the obviously WERE building new ones as I doubt seriously they could build a completely new Enterprise in the few months all this took place!). The Shuttle Enterprise is old, too, and COULD be refitted to fly in space... but we don't do it, we just build new ones. You only patch something so long before you just replace it. That's what they've done. And adding the A at the end of a commission number is fairly standard practice with destroyed military vessels from what I hear and read. king ARPA: ables@mcc.com UUCP: {gatech,ihnp4,seismo,ucb-vax}!ut-sally!im4u!milano!mcc-pp!ables ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 02:44:06 GMT From: rjd@nancy (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: STIV complaints - actually: Space Shuttles ables@mcc-pp.UUCP (King Ables) writes: >build a completely new Enterprise in the few months all this took >place!). > >The Shuttle Enterprise is old, too, and COULD be refitted to fly in >space... but we don't do it, we just build new ones. You only >patch something so long before you just replace it. That's what >they've done. A small point, but: no, it could not be refitted to fly in space. If it could, we would do it - it still costs close to a billion to make a space shuttle...The Enterprise's fusage cannot take the stress of space travel and re-entry, nor does it have *any* of the instrumentation required. (I am not even certain that it has fuel tanks.) It was engineered to simulate the aerodynamic aspects of a shuttle so the powerless landing procedures could be tested. It could no more take to space then a Beachcraft could... Rob DeMillo Brown University Planetary Science Group UUCP: ...{seismo!harpo}!ihnp4!brunix!rjd ...{seismo!harpo}!ihnp4!brunix!europa!rd BITNET: GE702025@BROWNVM ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 10:35:14 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!warwick!rolf@RUTGERS.EDU (Rolf Howarth) Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide on TV; Computer Graphics dougie@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Dougie Nisbet) writes: >Interestingly enough, 'None at all' is exactly how much Computer >Graphics were used to simulate The Guide speaking. I'm not too sure >how it was I realise that the "Computer Graphics" were actually animated by hand - I wasn't referring to their implementation but the effect you saw on the screen. It always strikes me as odd that people judge effects by how expensive the equipment was with which they were generated, rather than on the impression created on the viewer by the **effect** itself. There was a lot of fuss made about the computer graphics in TRON, for example, but I personally found the effects in that film rather tedious and unimaginative. Sure it's nice to see what can be done but one should always remember that computers are **tools** - a means to an end rather than the end itself - which may or may not be the most appropriate one to use in a particular situation. >I'm often suprised how much people like the TV series compared to >the Radio series - I would agree that GENERALLY the TV series >follows the radio series, but to be more accurate, the TV series >MISSES OUT a lot which is on the radio. e.g. When the site of the >Bypass is being opened and the local Pain-in-the-A. councillor is >making a speech. This particular scene only occurred in the radio series as I recall, and was I believe dropped by Douglas Adams himself in later versions, eg. play, record, book (? - I'm not sure if it's in the book or not) The main thing that irritates me about the TV series is Sandra Dickinson as Trillian - a high pitched whining blonde with a degree in maths and astrophysics?! Eee-yuk! Rolf Dept. of Computer Science Warwick University Coventry, CV4 7AL England Tel: +44 203 523523 ext 2485 JANET: rolf@uk.ac.warwick.flame UUCP: {seismo,mcvax}!ukc!warwick!rolf ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 17:31:10 GMT From: harvard!linus!faron!markan@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: HHGTTG Graphics &c dougie@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Dougie Nisbet) writes: >Interestingly enough, 'None at all' is exactly how much Computer >Graphics were used to simulate The Guide speaking. I'm not too sure >how it was rolf@warwick.UUCP (Rolf Howarth) writes: >It always strikes me as odd that people judge effects by how >expensive the equipment was with which they were generated, rather >than on the impression created on the viewer by the **effect** >itself. I was impressed by the simulated 'computer graphics' on the television show. It wasn't until the second or third show that I realized that they *weren't*. For that matter, there's a lot of things a good animator can do that a computer, no matter how well programmed or how much the machine cost, could ever do. >There was a lot of fuss made about the computer graphics in TRON, >for example, but I personally found the effects in that film rather >tedious and unimaginative. Sure it's nice to see what can be done I'm glad someone else has that same feeling. I thought I was the only one. >The main thing that irritates me about the TV series is Sandra >Dickinson as Trillian - a high pitched whining blonde with a degree >in maths and astrophysics?! Eee-yuk! Unfortunately, that stereotype fits a disgustingly common image of 'female sidekick', even if she wasn't like that at all in the other versions. Da svidaniya, Mark Nowacki The MITRE Corp. Burlington Road Bedford, MA 01730 UUCP: linus!faron!markan ARPA: faron!markan@mitre-bedford ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 17:24:14 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide on TV; Computer Graphics >dougie@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Dougie Nisbet) writes: > There was a lot of fuss made about the computer graphics in TRON, > for example, but I personally found the effects in that film > rather tedious and unimaginative. Sure it's nice to see what can > be done but one should always remember that computers are > **tools** - a means to an end rather than the end itself - which > may or may not be the most appropriate one to use in a particular > situation. Frankly, my question is "who went to Tron for the plot?" (It was REAL weak, there, folks- we are talkin' STILLBORN!) I went to watch huge-screen graphics, to see what could be done with enhanced-image computer graphics. It was intreresting. Still think my favorites were the tanks... But then, I read David Drake, too. 8-) (what an AMAZING coincidence! The author of _Hammer's Slammers_, _Forlorn Hope_, etc..... (by the by- they AREN'T just mercenary shoot-em-up crap. Take a read. Some of the characters are a bit deep.)) Eric ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 87 17:41:27 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: ST...TNG Questions? Okay, here's the story. I'm going out to LA next week and while I'm there will get a chance to visit shooting of Star Trek:The Next Generation. So, what questions would you like answered? Things I may not think to ask. No guarantees (they may ask me to keep my mouth shut...as a matter of fact, they'll PROBABLY ask me to keep my mouth shut), but the net deserves a shot at this. Please don't ask me to ask questions that can't be answered, or ones that are too specific (ie. what station will be showing the show in Rome, NY?). No matter what, I promise a report when I get back. Ideas? Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 2 Jun 87 0904-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #268 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jun 87 0904-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #268 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 2 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 268 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (4 msgs) & Lewis & Spider Robinson & Tolkien (2 msgs) & White ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 May 87 00:06:15 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? dlw@pdp.cs.OHIOU.EDU (Daniel Weigert): >sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: >> Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind, and throat, is the >> scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which Friday, the main >> character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather enjoys the >> experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable, relax and >> enjoy it' theory), and comments to herself that while the >> technique of rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B isn't >> bad at all. >> >> This is a repulsive attitude toward rape, which is NOT enjoyable. > >I didn't get that at all from the scene. If you recall, the reason >she was being raped was to force information from her. She was >trained in this situation to "cooperate" with the inquisitors a) to >stall, and b) to frustrate them. I don't happen to agree with this >SOP May I remind everyone that if you play with fire you should expect to get burned? Friday, as a combat courier in *that* screwed-up world, was (in my opinion) in the biggest bonfire ever; is it surprising she has ``mental asbestos''? Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, OH 44060 +01 216 255 1080 {decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 16:17:08 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!crash!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. From: Smith) Subject: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up? Ok, Heinlein fans and bashers, here's an interesting tidbit for you: On the cover of The Cat Who Walks Through Walls is a couple we presume to be Hazel Stone and Richard Ames. Problem - Richard Ames is explicitly stated to be *black* in the novel and the man on the cover is white. While in the Council Chamber, we meet Sky Marshal Samuel Beaux, who is described as being "as beautiful as a black panther." I'll take this to mean that he is black, not white. Several pages later on, Ames and Samuel Beaux (referred to endearingly as "Sambo" (no, no it's not - gasp - Heinlein racist flames! (and nested parenthetical comments, too] are having a fight. Ames say "Look, boy, I'm mighty glad that your skin color matches mine." Now, who the hell is the white man on the cover? Enquiring minds want to know! David L. Smith sdcsvax!sdamos!sdeggo!dave ihnp4!jack!man!sdeggo!dave hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave sdeggo!dave@sdamos.ucsd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 23:53:54 GMT From: cit-vax!elroy!nrcvax!terry@RUTGERS.EDU (Terry Grevstad) Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? >>I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger >>in a Strange Land". I hated it. I hated it so thoroughly that I >>will extend that feeling to the author, and state "I hate >>Heinlein". I will never again read anything he has written. > >As the saying goes, "Try it, you'll like it." > >Heinlein didn't get to be the dean of science fiction for nothing. >He's good. Correction. He WAS good. I am a devoted science fiction fan. Have been ever since I learned to read. I grew up with Heinlein. However, somewhere around the beginning of high school he came out with ``Stranger in a Strange Land.'' It was trash. I hated it. Since then I have attempted to read later books of his, but I just can't take them. I don't know what happened to him, but that (to me) was the turning point. He hasn't written anything worth reading since then. I would encourage Mark to read any of Heinlein's earlier works--for the most part they are quite good. In my opinion: (note, this is my opinion and since I'm telling you up front this is only my opinion all devotees of RAH can hold the flames.) He tells a good story. And while all he was doing was telling the story things went great. I think someone must have convinced him that ``great literature'' requires ``deep moral philosophy'' and he then decided to write ``great literature''. The only problem is his ``deep moral philosphy'' ain't so deep and certainly lacks a few morals. To me (hint :-) he comes across as pompous, as a dirty old man, and in many ways as a hypocrite. (Remember, this is only my opinion. I don't expect to see any flames on the net. You may burn out my mailbox if you so desire.) ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 87 16:50:01 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein? worley@dana.UUCP (John Worley): > I though the book, like many of Heinlein's works, was overly > long, tried to set up too much and had too many coincidences. I > must disagree with the previous posting which complained about > Friday's settling down and raising children at the end: 1) She > only had one child, the one implanted in her on Earth, as she was > sterile, and 2) she was very much a community leader, as was > explained in the last chapter. The point of the pregancy (OPINION > ->) was to finally prove to Friday that she *was* a human being, > not an "artifact". To add my own opinion: her settling down and joining the community drove it (her being a human being) home. And she *was* a leader within the community. Which doesn't affect the question of whether the community was ``correct''; then again, we don't see very much of it. The question of the ``place'' of women is open, as far as I can tell. (In a close-knit society, social organizations such as the PTA and the Rotary Club could be very important.) Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, OH 44060 +01 216 255 1080 {decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 16:32:49 GMT From: umnd-cs!umn-cs!watvlsi!watdcsu!mschuck@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Narnia, yet again pete@stc.UUCP (Peter Kendell) writes: >One point about Susan, though. Given that the children love their >sister, could Heaven be perfect without her? In another of Lewis's books (The Great Divorce) he tackles this problem. I believe his argument runs along the lines that the damnation of another person cannot, by one iota, affect the happiness of those in Heaven, (which by definition is perfect). I don't remember the exact passage except that it bothered me at the time. (The context was a wife whose weaselly husband was trying to get her to "get him in".) Does anyone remember exactly how it went? Mary Margaret Schuck ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 87 12:33:55 EDT From: dml@nadc.arpa (D. Loewenstern) Subject: "Melancholy Elephants" From: harvard!wjh12!lsrhs!diamond@RUTGERS.EDU (Beth Abrams) >Subject: Re: Movie Flame Plagarismic huh? From: rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Arthur Evans) >(various examples omitted here) >>I'm sorry if I sound shrill -- what I'm really getting at is that >>you folks are taking what seems to me an excessively legalistic, >>capitalistic stance on this matter. Plots and genres were not >>considered a form of personal property until nations started >>passing copyright laws. I, for one, find these laws scary >>sometimes. If Shakespeare was alive today, >(other examples omitted) > >There is a story by Spider Robinson on this very subject. It's >called _Melancholy_Elephants_ , in the anthology of the same name. >It deals with a prospective law that would make all artistic >copyrights *perpetual*, no statue of limitations whatsoever. The >implications of this are explored fairly thoroughly. I found >myself reevaluating my own ideas of 'ownership' where Art is >concerned. It's worth reading and thinking about, as is most of >Spider Robinson's writing. I too read "Melancholy Elephants", and *usually* I like Spider Robinson. However, I found ME extremely troubling, because ME was not concerned so much about the effect of perpetual copyrights as about the effect of permanent archives. Although the plotline was based upon perpetual copyrights, the question was not who should make money off ideas, but whether ideas should be remembered at all. If SR really believed what he wrote, I don't know why he bothers to write in the first place. (*spoiler*) ME seems to state that it is the nature of Art to be repetitive -- that there are only so many interesting, valuable artistic statements one can make, and that, if we remembered all previous art, we would be condemned either to repeat old art with minor variations, or give up artwork altogether (and that the time when all valuable artistic statements will have been made is in the reasonably forseeable future -- decades or centuries, not billions of years). (*end of spoiler*) This sounds suspiciously like the statements attributed to several scientists at the end of the nineteenth century, that science had nearly learned all it was going to learn, and that the future held only theoreticians plugging tiny little holes in theories which had attained full maturity by the early 1900's. SR appears to believe that societies are like finite state machines, and that therefore if a discovery or new work causes society to reach some previously unknown state, there remains one fewer state that the society could possibly achieve. Certainly there is no evidence for this view so far -- each new discovery has opened the way to more possible discoveries. I would propose that societies are more like infinite state machines (for example, the Turing machine) because they are capable of unchecked expansion (Malthusians might disagree with this statement). Far from ruining Art, perpetual copyrights would force us to confront the question of how much Art really is derivative -- but I feel that this would cause us to create better Art. Unlike SR, I don't dismiss the possibility of creating new art forms -- and new types of artistic statements -- as only a temporary solution. The universe is vast, and we have explored very little of it, both in Art and Science. Furthermore -- something SR fails to take into account sufficiently -- is that new art forms often invigorate old art forms. I do not like the idea of perpetual copyright only because of economic grounds -- I don't want the descendents of geniuses to be rich (and therefore powerful) because of their ancestors' greatness. I would like to see well-run databases of art, so that an artist can compare his ideas to those of his predecessors easily, thereby (I hope), making it easier for an artist to detect strains of derivation in his/her own work. David Loewenstern Naval Air Development Center code 7013 Warminster, PA 18974 dml@nadc ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 18:24:03 GMT From: nw@amdahl.amdahl.com (Neal Weidenhofer) Subject: Re: Silmarillion vs. LoTR vs. Hobbit vs. Cottage of Lost Play adb@elrond.CalComp.COM (Alan D. Brunelle) writes: >2. As to Gandalf's role in LoTR I would think that it is quite >clear that his (and the other Istari) purpose was to assist the >Free Peoples in their fight against Sauron by forming a last great >union of the Peoples. I don't think that he is in any way THE >saviour of the West, but more in the light of THE coordinator of >the west. It was he that got ALL of the different nations to >concern themselves with the menace. (If you would like me to >choose my pick for THE saviour of the West, it would have to be ... >Samwise Gamgee! Read the LoTR carefully, and you will realize that >Sam really carried Frodo from the time that they left the company >to the Fire of Doom. If that Ring were not destroyed all of the >valiant efforts by Aragorn and Gandalf &c would have come to naught >- of course without the valiant efforts by the above the chance to >destroy the ring wouldn't have happened...) I think that it's his role as coordinator that earns him the title of "saviour". He, along with Aragorn, Galadriel, and Elrond was also the chief strategist. They all had their parts to play, including Meriadoc and Peregrin; but, without Gandalf to pull them together the rest would have been ineffectual at best. Neal Weidenhofer Amdahl Corporation 1250 E. Arques Ave. (M/S 316) Sunnyvale, CA 94088-3470 (408)737-5007 {hplabs|ihnp4|seismo|decwrl}!amdahl!nw ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 87 21:38:05 -0700 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Frodo's words about the Ring's effect Somebody mentioned a little while ago the chilling passage of Frodo's in Mordor in which he describes what the Ring is doing to him -- and, of course, what it would do to all the West if Sauron were to get it back. I didn't reply immediately, because I wanted to be sure I had the quote exactly right. Here it is. [Sam says: "Do you remember that bit of rabbit, Mr. Frodo? And our place under the warm bank in Captain Faramir's country, the day I saw the oliphaunt?" And Frodo replies:] "No, I am afraid not, Sam. At least, I know that such things happened, but I cannot see them. No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades." If that isn't horrific, I don't know what is. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 87 01:40:05 EDT From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Deadly litter? To: amdahl!drivax!macleod@AMES.ARPA Cc: Space@ANGBAND.S1.GOV, From: amdahl!drivax!macleod@ames.arpa Good writing but poor science. He is off by many orders of magnitude. Litter may someday be a problem in low Earth orbit, but, consider the volume of interplanetary space. The volume of the solar system within Jupiter's orbit is well over 1.6E36 cubic meters. If every person on Earth owned their own spacecraft, flew it constantly, and discarded one piece of litter per second for a century, that would be about 1.5E19 pieces of litter, or one piece per 1E17 cubic meters. If the average spacecraft had a cross-section of 100 square meters, and traveled at 10 kilometers per second (much faster and the litter would hurtle out of the solar system), it would collide with a piece of litter about once every 3000 years on the average. Yet White portrays littering as a very serious crime, and despite extreme precautions taken, many spacecraft are destroyed by collisions with litter. It is clear that he has no feel for the sheer size of the solar system. He has done worse. He portrays chance meetings in interstellar space, which ought to happen approximately never, even if every star system has a million starships associated with it, which travel constantly at half the speed of light and which can detect any other starship within the Earth-moon distance of it. And of course there is _The Watch Below_, in which several generations live for over a century aboard a sunken WWII ship, by cranking a generator to power light bulbs to grow green plants which produce oxygen, in violation of a few laws of thermodynamics and common sense. Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 3 Jun 87 0804-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #269 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jun 87 0804-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #269 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 3 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 269 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & E.E. "Doc" Smith & Vinge & White & Tom Swift & Robots & Sexism in SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Jun 87 13:54:21 GMT From: aw@doc.imperial.ac.uk (Andrew Weeks) Subject: The Asimov Chronicles The idea of a continuous Galactic history occurred to Asimov a long time ago. Around 1948 he published a short story entitled 'Mother Earth', which concerned the Declaration of Independence of the Spacer worlds, and thus comes between Susan Calvin and Elijah Bailey. This story contains very clear forward references to the subject matter of `Robots and Empire`, published almost forty years later. `Mother Earth' is, I think, the last story in `the Early Asimov, Vol 3', at least in the UK. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 87 18:13:20 GMT From: umnd-cs!umn-cs!watvlsi!watmath!looking!brad@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's Subject: Mega-ology rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes: >Agreed! "Foundation's Egde", that short story in novel's clothing, >was not a bad story - would have been reasonable as one fourth of a >Foundation novel - but the bending and twisting to make everything >fit was pitiful to read. SPOILER: Foundation and Earth What's worse, it didn't tie things together properly. The race of superhumans on Earth, created through the "synapsifier" at the end of "Pebble in the Sky" was nowhere to be seen. These humans could read minds and think far faster than other humans. They had the powers of R. Giskard or a member of the second foundation. They were not limited by the laws of robotics. Daneel should have been no match for them. Where are they? They didn't form Gaia, which might have been one idea. Where are they? Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1987 09:05 PDT From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Doc Smith, Ellern, Lensbeings, etc >William Ellern wrote a couple of stories, "New Lensman" and >"Triplanetary Agent ... Does anyone know if the stories were ever >published elsewhere A paperback edition of "New Lensman" has been published - as an "Orbit Book" by Futura Publications Ltd, 110 Warner Rd., Camberwell London SE5 9HQ, UK, 1976. My Copy comes from the Popular Book Centre Rochester Row SW3, London, UK. At the front there is a "TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN" note that is dated July 14 1965 and signed Edward E Smith which states: "I hereby give William B. Ellern permission to lay his stories in my Lensman universe: and to use copywrited material identical with or similar to that embodied in his manuscript entitled MOON PROSPECTOR." I preferred it to Kyle's work because much of the plot develops from the logical implications of the technology of Civilization at that time and fits neatly with the other books with only one or two jarring elements. On the other hand I missed my favourite alien being - Worsel - who is (of course) in Dragon Lensman. Some Misc. Notes on "Children of the Lens" Incest: Chapter 13 "Clarissa takes her L-2 Work" The author describes how Kim inreases his mother's mental/Lens powers. I have often wondered - are there a couple of paragraphs of sexual imagery or have I read too much Freud? Sexism/Genderism: Try the Golden Age of TV sometime to get the context! Against this back ground (ONLY) "Children of the Lens" appears feminist. Humor: Chapter 3 has a delicious parody of the space opera. Chapter 5 paints a malicious view of writers. Finally - a provokation: Is the whole saga just "Miami Vice in Space"? (:-))**n ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 87 23:09:49 MDT From: donn@cs.utah.edu (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: Joan D. Vinge article I too enjoyed reading the Vinge article. I did have one thing to harrumph about -- the main reason why Vinge seemed to think Benford and Spinrad were sexist was that they had criticized THE SNOW QUEEN. If she had picked an example a little less close to home, I might have felt more sympathetic... I personally didn't like THE SNOW QUEEN and I don't see how that proves I'm a sexist. What sorts of things did Benford and Spinrad really say that were so outrageously sexist, anyway? I admit that I haven't read any letters or reviews by Benford or Spinrad which mentioned THE SNOW QUEEN... Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@cs.utah.edu 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 87 02:22:51 GMT From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok) Subject: Re: Deadly litter? From: "Keith F. Lynch" >... it would collide with a piece of litter about once every 3000 >years on the average. > >Yet White portrays littering as a very serious crime, and despite >extreme precautions taken, many spacecraft are destroyed by >collisions with litter. 3000 years, eh? Well, let's envision a world that has 1,000,000 spaceships in it. That comes to about 300 collisions/year. The point isn't the numbers, though. The point is that it is impossible to take the chance. I wouldn't like it at all if my best friend was killed by somebody else's "beer can." Nor would anyone else. Life tends to defy the odds to no end, so why risk it? We don't send radioactive waste into the sun for the same reason, basically. There is a definite, though small chance that there might be an accident and wide-spread contamination. The Challenger disaster showed that. Would you be willing to take the risk? "Sure," you might say, "I could get killed by a hailstone falling." but would you seed a cloud to produce hail and then stand under it and say, "The odds of me getting hit are X to 1." ? Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 87 17:35:40 EDT From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: Re: Tom Swift Has anybody realized that there is (maybe was) a new Tom Swift series now? I ran across it a few years ago. As a kid, I had all the Tom Swift Jr. books from the fifties and the sixties, and many of the original Tom Swift books from the teens through the thirties, so I bought a couple to see what they were doing with the concept these days. I didn't much like the way they set these stories up. The TSJ books made frequent references to the original TS books, were set in the same locale and had Tom's father still married to Mary Nestor etc, but the new ones don't seem at all concerned with the history of the series. Tom's hometown 'Shopton' has been arbitrarily moved from New England to New Mexico and none of the characters from TS or TSJ repeat though there is ample opportunity for them to do so. Also, the new Tom is much more of a team player than the inventing genius that the original TS and TSJ were, and he has been given two companions seemingly solely to provide the minority/female/ handicapped balance missing (and worse than missing in the first series) in the earlier series. (This is not a bad thing, but it kind of reminded me of a new edition of a math book I had in 7th grade. Comparing it with kids who had the old edition, the only difference was that half of the word problems now used female imaginary people rather than male. It could have been done better). All this said, the books were not badly written or plotted, but not something to spart a real revival of the series. Give your kids the old books if you can find them (with a talk about history and stereotypes in the case of the first series). Or give them Rick Brant - the best written series from the Grosset and Dunlap juveniles (Hardy Boys, Tom Swift, Nancy Drew, Bobsey Twins, Christopher Cool, etc). Those stories still hold up. Ted Nolan ted@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue 2 Jun 87 09:11:48-PDT From: D-ROGERS@edwards-2060.arpa Subject: robot names for computer I didn't see any mention to the robot "brain" that successively runs the subject's spacecraft and his mechanical horse in the _Warlock_ In_Spite_Of_Himself_ series by Christofer Stasheff. He called it "FESS" which I believe was an acronym. Of course, maybe you don't want to name a computer after a neurotic robot which tripped its circuit breaker every time it got a problem that was really tough to handle. dale ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 87 22:27:16 -0700 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: Sexism in Science Fiction >The backlash against feminism became apparent in shoot-em-up, >special-effects vehicles, like the first Star Wars movie. Princess >Leia is the standard "damsel in distress," whose main contribution >to the plot is the fact that she owns the 'droids, and programs >R2D2 to get help from a man -- Obi-Wan Kenobi. While I think your thesis is probably correct, this example doesn't seem to me to serve it. Leia is several things in these films: - commander-in-chief of the Rebellion (the senior generals answer to her). - the one who sent 3PO and R2 away to Tatooine while she stayed behind to face the Empire -- very carefully and deliberately being sure to fall into the troopers' hands, but when she wanted it, and not before. - a better shot than either Luke or Han -- I can't offhand recall any shots she fired, in any of the 3 films so far, that missed -- excepting only a couple in Empire where she was firing blind. Even guided by the Force, Luke could barely do as well. - the one who refused to break under Vader's torture. - the one who killed Jabba the Hutt -- and not by poisoning, electrocuting, or shooting him, but by whipping a chain (not even a rope) around his neck and strangling him by main force. etc. She is not idle, she is not passive. She is a mover and a doer. I'm not sure why she winds up leaving more and more of the command decisions to her command staff (I'm thinking of Jedi now), but I suspect that, besides wanting the decisions to be made by the most experienced people she can get, she also wants to be more involved in the real action. So I fear that she is not really the example you wanted. Shouldn't worry you too much though. I expect there is an unfortunate number of examples that will do you just fine. Alastair Milne PS. I also doubt whether Obi-Wan's being male had anything to do with it. the entire reason for the mission was to bring General Kenobi back to Alderaan, to help the Alliance as he had helped in the Clone Wars. When her ship was captured, she sent on the droids to complete as much of that mission as was still possible. She was not simply choosing the nearest male she knew of for help -- in fact, she did not ask his help for herself at all, but for Alderaan. She could have had little or no hope that she herself would ever see him. ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 01:22:35 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!bms@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Feminism/lineage OUT OF PLACE is bad writing! Gideon Sheps was responding to an article that complained about Tolkien's use and apparent view of women (and their place, etc.). If you've been following along, you should remember that Eowen has been used as a prime example for whatever argument started this stuff... hell, that's about all I can keep straight, but then I'm a wee bit sleepy... Anyway, Gideon's remarks reminded me of something I saw/heard at a reading some time ago (at least a year, but what does that matter?). Guests were Ursula LeGuin (can anyone out there give me the title and/or publication date of a story about naming -NOT related to Earthsea- that she had published in the New Yorker?), Samuel Delany, and L. Sprague deCamp. This last read a HUMOROUS short story set sometime in (I believe) late 19TH CENTURY (but I'm terrible with time periods...), which involved a man who had discovered or made a pair of spectacles (glasses, silly) that enabled him to see through people's clothing (okay, people, what's the title? (sigh)). OF COURSE it was sexist! And adorable, and as far as I could tell (and by now we should ALL KNOW what experience/education I'm lacking :^) it was very well done - very much an old story type thingy. Hell, I don't even know where the style comes from, but I KNOW I've seen it... ANYWAY... The two women who were sitting beside me, who had obviously come to see LeGuin and possibly Delany, got extremely sour/displeased/disgusted looks on their faces during Sprague deCamp's reading, and when he was done they complained to each other (loudly enough that they might have almost felt strongly enough to speak out to the audience) that the committee or whatever should have been able to get someone better, and how dare they present this sexist asshole? They were ANGRY about this, thought the organizers stunk for allowing it to happen, thought deCamp stunk (as an Enemy, after all) for writing (assumed BELIEVING) such crap, thought the TM (Columbo, I think) was a sexist asshole for applauding deCamp and making jokes that related to what had transpired in the story... Well, you get the picture. What kind of readers are these? Would they, favouring the taste of watermelon, say that a writer was BAD and that he should not be allowed to present his work at a public gathering because he chose, at some point in his career, to write a humourous story concerning a future Earth/earth in which farmers stopped planting watermelons and caused the species to die off completely after an incredible low in the number of lawn-parties being held across the world? Sorry, bad example (but I like it enough to leave it in! :^). Okay: ...because he chose, at some point in his career, to write a humorous story concerning a future earth in which, although other melons were acknowledged as excellent sources of All The Good Stuff, watermelons were ridiculed, used to sell aircars, and generally thought not to have a single worthwhile use (see Buckaroo Banzai...) other than as a source easy pleasure at lawn-parties the world over (`Oh, sure, he wants to eat me now, but will he respect me in the morning?' :^), ... well, how dare this asshole writer present such a bad story, which shows such extreme prejudice against watermelon? (Oh no! This is a sure sign of Melonism!) I've digressed (but I've had FUN). The point (as if you haven't seen it coming) is, well... What exactly do these people consider good? Shakespeare was damned sexist according to our times. Probably according to his as well (but he's had FUN). What other names do I know that you might recognize? Thomas Hardy? The Bronte sisters? Um... If they read only literature in which women are treated -by the writer and the characters and the actual point of the story- exactly as they see or want to see them, their range is far more limited even than mine! What does this have to do with Tolkien? Hell, I surely don't know (`-much about anything' yeah, yeah, save your breath/fingers); did he mention watermelons EVEN ONCE in Lord Of The Rings? NO?!!! (Quick - it should only take you a few hours -or so- to check...) Maybe -just MAYBE, mind you- he was writing about a place in which watermelons (not to mention lawn-parties) had not yet been discovered. Or maybe -just MAYBE- he had chosen to write about characters that didn't like watermelons. Does this make his story bad? It may be unenjoyable for some, but lack of reasonable watermelonness does not a bad story make. (Mind you, from what I saw of his?her? article, the netter Gideon was responding to did not say that because the views found in LotR were displeasing the whole work could be said to be unenjoyable and/or badly written. I was just inspired is all.) I never did get the point of Masque World. Becky Slocombe ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 3 Jun 87 0820-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #270 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jun 87 0820-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #270 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 3 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 270 Today's Topics: Books - Friedman & Title Request & Answers (2 msgs) & Best Fantasy & Expanded Short Stories, Television - Star Trek: The New Generation & Kirstie Alley & The Prisoner & Fantastic Journey, Miscellaneous - Ellipsoidal Planets (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 May 87 01:26:52 GMT From: motown!sys1!killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green) Subject: Re: Review: _In Conquest Born_ (no real spoilers) perry@inteloa.intel.com says: > So? This is an ending?! It just doesn't fit into the flow of the > story, it feels like a major *break*. I was *hoping* for > *synthesis*, that they would turn their `honorable hatred' to > constructive ends, recognizing that their love-hatred was > benefiting them both (and, perhaps, their cultures). I was > *fearing* that Friedman would just kill him off (too simple, > that). But this? I agree. The ending of the book was the worst part of it. When I read it, I said "huh? Huh? This is an ending? This looks more like a sequel-seller!". The ending was not satisfying at all. > Somehow it reeks almost of a moral afterthought - after all, he's > a mass murderer in an evil society, so he's got to get his > punishment before the story ends, right? After Friedman has > managed in all the story not to pass moral judgement, this idea > feels AWFUL to me. **** SPOILER ALERT ***** I don't think it's a moral afterthought. His "punishment" is personally disastrous, but I don't think it'll harm his status as a ruler at all. Remember that the Braxanna already have a reputation for being aloof, superior, somewhat greater than human. They were already spiritually isolated from each other and from the common people. This just makes him physically isolated, too. > Or is it - dread thought - just an after-the-fact alteration to > prepare for a sequel? Arrrgh! That's my impression,too. > I should add, per explanation, that throughout the book I've kept > my sympathies for Zatar, as well as his enemy. Does that make me > emotionally unacceptable? If so, then I am, too! Zatar is BAAAAADDDDDD. A rational evil, one of the worst kinds. Yet, considering his environment, I can think of no other way that he could be -- which I think was the point of a couple of the episodes that seem otherwise "irrelevant and 'boring'". And compared to some of his fellows (e.g. the sadist raised on a planet of 'barbarian' women)... well, you pass judgement. And with people such as the head of the psychic institute, who regularly warped and distorted minds... I think that one of the points was that those who do evil for "good" causes are no better than creatures of pure evil. BTW, did Harkur seem pretty darn telepathic to you?! And what was that comment about "doing to us what we did to Lugast" (about the updating of that planet on the far side of the dust cloud)? Is that something to do with Braxin sending technology to AZEA somewhere in the distant past? Yes indeed, it does seem like we're being set up for a sequel or prequel or something of the sort.... Eric Green University of SW Louisiana P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 elg%usl.CSNET {cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 23:41:39 GMT From: jnp@calmasd.ge.com (John Pantone) Subject: Need book title A number of years ago (6? 7?) I began reading a novel which I couldn't finish - for a number of reasons. I would like to find it again, and finish it this time - but don't know the title. Plot summary: Silicon Vally hacker-type has "weird event" and finds himself in a desert somewhere in the middle east. It's the Epic of Gilgamesh - all over, with our hacker the side-kick of Gilgamesh himself. Title anyone? John M. Pantone GE Calma R&D Data Management Group San Diego {ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp jnp@calmasd.GE.COM ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 21:28:32 GMT From: mimsy!tewok@RUTGERS.EDU (Uncle Wayne) Subject: Re: title/author request MICROMGR@BCVAX3.BITNET writes: > How about a book in which the main character is transported to >another dimension through an intergalactic travel-agency's goof, >then has to try to return on his own...I can't remember much more, >except that the copy I was reading had a predominately red >cover...its probably rather old given that it was from my father's >collection, and I started it some 7 years ago (and never finished >it...i lost it too soon) This sounds somewhat like Mindswap by Robert Sheckley. The main character takes a vacation by swapping minds with someone on another planet, only to find that the body he's been swapped to was overbooked. He is given some small amount of time to find a new body before he is forced out. It gets a little weird from there. I hope this helps. Wayne Morrison ARPA: tewok@brillig.umd.edu UUCP: seismo!mimsy!tewok Computer Science Dept. University of Maryland (301)454-7690 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 87 06:36 PDT From: JSanders.es@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #256 >Does anybody remember a book, that I read about '74 that had on the >cover an alien face with sharp pointed filed teeth, and a story >about some guys that go to a planet and convince the locals to farm >their brethern, who grow fat and happy, only to be tortured to >extract a drug called Herogyn, which is produced (or so the >earthlings convince them) when they are tortured. I believe it was 'Men in the Jungle,' but they took the Herogyn with them and used it in an attempt to overthrow the local government. The plot was: a military expert and a political expert escape defeat with a spaceship filled with drugs and attempt to carve out a new place for themselves. John ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 87 20:54 +0800 From: Natalie Prowse Subject: Book request... I am interested in a list of what people would deem the *BEST* fantasy stories to read. As an example, I have read The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, some years ago, and I thought they were great. More recently, I read 'The Sword of Shannara', (a gift) the first book only, and I thought it STUNK!. Is there anything more out there that isn't attempting to rip off TLotR ?? I am afraid my reading has been somewhat limited to SF so my knowledge of Fantasy is severely lacking.... Also, I would like a list what would be the top 10 SF novels of the past few years(5-7 years??) These may or may not be the Nebula award winners...And while I am at it, What is Spider Robinson's SF like? I have seen his books, but never read anything by him, except, I think, 1 short story (or an excerpt) but that was too long ago to remember. ( This is just for my own personal interest, not for any compilation..) Many thanks. Natalie ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 87 21:01:56 GMT From: levin@cc5.bbn.com.bbn.com (Joel B Levin) Subject: Expanded short stories? rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes: >Some years ago I dropped a once favorite western author because he >had begun to take old short stories and turn them into complete >books I have often wondered what the order of creation (short stories vs novels) was in another author's case: I read (in several places) A. E. van Vogt's "The Weapon Shops" and was amazed years later to find a novel _The Weapon Shops of Isher_ containing the entire short story in several chapters throughout the novel. It fit well, but the novel added a new dimension to the original story (and provided an interesting basis for Creation, as well!). (I also read the sequel, _The Weapons Makers_. Unfortunately, the last sentence of that one always makes me laugh; was it a joke?) I also read a short story called "The Rull", and a story anthologized in several places, "The Sound" (I think). They both later turned up as chapeters in a rather episodic novel called _The War Against the Rull_. In this case it seems clear the novel was built out of existing pieces. I would be interested in knowing more about the sequence and history of the above stories, and of other examples of this sort of thing (I already know about the Foundation trilogy). JBL UUCP: {harvard, husc6, etc.}!bbn!levin ARPA: levin@bbn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 87 17:42 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: ST:TNG Sexism I'm not bothered by the lack of racial balance in The New Generation. But, darn, I feel males have had their shot at command in Star Trek. We had a whole 79 episodes where males commanded in every instance (Ensign Chekov being given the con over Lt. Uhura), with the top upteen (at least 4) command officers being male. Was it so unrealistic of me to hope that one of the two top officers of TNG would be female? I had decided it was so. But, thanks to Marcus's kind offer, I've been watching Quark. And it bugs me that in that semi-enlightended 70's show, with sterotypical dumb blonds and rather sexist Gene/Jean humor 1) the second-in-commands WERE female 2) in every meeting of commanders, there seemed to be a woman. Heck, if QUARK could do it, surely ST can! Was Gene Roddenbery so burned by his attempt to put a woman in the First Officer position in ST's first pilot that he'd never risk it again? Or is it just the rabid feminist in me that makes the cast of TNG rub me the wrong way? Lisa Wahl ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 87 12:31:04 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: Kirstie Alley For all you folks bitching a while back about how much better Kirstie Alley was as Saavik...you'll get your chance to see her as Sam Malone's new boss on Cheers. She's put there after Sam sells the bar to a big conglomerate, no word why Sam sells the bar (or why he still works there). Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 87 15:23:51 GMT From: rochester!cci632!ccicpg!cracraft@RUTGERS.EDU (Stuart Cracraft) Subject: The Prisoner, episodes 3 & 4 This series of commentaries will cover all 17 "Prisoner" episodes. The first two episode commentaries have been posted already in a previous msg. ******SPOILER****** Episode 3: "A, B, & C" Number 6 is the subject of a new experimental method by the village authorities. His captors are able to enter his mind in his dreaming, create new dreams, and add new characters to his dreams. In an attempt to learn why he resigned, three different characters, code named "A", "B", and "C" are each introduced in Number 6's dreams, which itself takes the form of a dinner party in the suburbs of Paris. In this personal victory for Number 6, he turns the tables on his captors. Number 2 is defeated. But there will always be a new Number 2. A personal favorite of mine. Episode 4: "Free for All" Number 6 is invited by Number 2 to enter a political race for elective office. In his politcal campaign for Number 2's position, Number 6 discovers that he had little choice in the matter and the campaign is fixed from the start. And in the end, it again turns out to be another ploy to break Number 6, this time somewhat more harshly than previous interrogations. In particular, a dutiful though care-free French maid turns out to be the new Number 2, and a particularly hostile one at that. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 87 14:20 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Fantastic Journey Cc: ames!pyramid!osu-eddie!francis@RUTGERS.EDU (RD Francis), Cc: lkeber@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (LAK) "Jarad"--the actor's name was Jared Martin (later to appear in a season or so of Dallas) and I think the character's name was Varian. He was definitely my favorite character. As I recall, Roddy McDowell did one of those "presto chango" routines and turned from a bad guy to a good guy in a few episodes. From what little I saw of it, it seemed like a pretty good show. I'd love to see it again. Lisa Wahl ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 87 17:11:35 GMT From: wrs@pupthy.princeton.edu (William R. Somsky) Subject: Re: Ellipsoidal planets >> From: >> The ellipsoid planet will give severe differences in >> atmospheric pressure ... >From: "Keith F. Lynch" >No it won't. Ignoring mountains and valleys, any planet will >have an equipotential surface. Air pressure will be the same >everywhere on the "sea level" surface. > >Hal Clement (Mesklin) seems to have realized this, but Larry Niven >(Jinx) apparently has not. Robert Forward (Rocheworld) also got it >right. Niven's rationale was that Jinx was originally much closer to, and in tidal lock with, "Primary" (I believe that was the name of the super-jovian Jinx was a moon of) Hence, at the time it's crust cooled, the tidal forces due to Primary caused the equipotenial surface to be ellipsoidial. After crust formation, Jinx's tidal drag on Primary drove Jinx into a higher orbit. As the distance from Primary increased, the tidal forces of Primary on Jinx decreased, and the equipotential surface became more spherical. Being liquid and gaseous, the oceans and atmosphere then assumed a spherical shape, but the planet itself, now solid, kept it's ellipsoidial shape. Hence the "East" and "West" ends stick out above the atmosphere and a vast sea encircling Jinx's girth. I don't know if the tidal effects would be severe enough to cause this scenario to take place without pulling Jinx apart, or having it undergo massive seismic disturbances as the tides decreased, or even if you could get a strong enough tide to make Jinx significantly "out of round", but the point is: The equipotential surface that was in effect when the crust formed, dictating it's shape, need not be the same as the current one, which dictates the shape of the oceans and atmosphere. William R. Somsky Physics Dept Princeton Univ wrs@pupthy.Princeton.EDU PO Box 708 Princeton NJ 08544 ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 87 21:07:41 GMT From: crew@decwrl.dec.com (Roger Crew) Subject: Re: Ellipsoidal planets ...you realize, of course, that Earth itself is ellipsoidal (well, if you really want to nitpick, the bulge is actually a bit south of the equator so we're really talking about a pear-shape...) Roger Crew@sushi.stanford.edu {everywhere.else}!decwrl!crew ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 87 22:34:15 GMT From: hplabs!intelca!mipos3!martin@RUTGERS.EDU (Martin Harriman) Subject: Re: Ellipsoidal planets The materials planets are built from are not very strong, even in their "solid" state--so even a "solid" planet (unlikely for something of the size of Jinx) could not support a frozen non-equipotential surface. Since most large planets should have enough fission heating in their core to keep them warm and squishy inside (that is, give them an asthenosphere), this seems even less likely. Oh well... Martin ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 87 21:21:06 GMT From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!percival!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU (Leonard From: Erickson) Subject: Re: Ellipsoidal planets Actually, I have always been under the impression that Jinx was orbiting closer to its primary when it solidified. It has since spiraled out (as has our moon) thus reducing the tidal forces. If this wasn't the case, the gravity at the "ends" would match that at the equator. I'm fairly sure that Niven actually mentioned this in one of the stories. Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 8 Jun 87 0841-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #271 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jun 87 0841-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #271 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 271 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Baum (2 msgs) & Bester & Brin & Cameron & Eddings & Foster & Hamilton & Jones & Niven & Saberhagen (2 msgs) & Smith (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1987 12:16 EST From: Rodney Elin Subject: Asimov's Mega-ology >dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes: >> The Asimov books seem to have been written separately, with >> different universes in mind. Any ideas on just why Asimov would >> want to force-fit all his stories together? Yech! > >Good point. My feeling is that he got nostalgic about it all these >last few years. You know, he realized that it could be done and so >he did it. Not only did Asimov get nostalgic about it these last few years, but so did his publisher, Doubleday. From the introductions to his new books, as well as several interviews and appearances, Asimov strongly implied that he was pressured (read "offered great sums of money") into writing yet another Foundation book (Foundation's Edge), and yet another Robot book (Robots of Dawn) in the early eighties (1982 and 1983, I believe). The success of these prompted the publisher to contract (read "give still more money than before") with Asimov for still more books in the series' (note plural, until now, there were three different series: Robot, Empire, and Foundation.) These included Robots and Empire, Foundation and Earth, and (gasp) another in the works. The problem does not particularly lie with trying to "work all of the different series' together." They were all written as stories that were played out in the same universe, more or less. They were not mutually incompatible. Asimov, like many SF and Fantasy authors, has created a "plausible universe" in which the majority of his works are set. Just like the real universe, most of what happens in one small part doesn't affect what happens in another small part (or even time, as the case may be) The stories, therefore, can be set in the same universe, and have nothing to with each other. Asimov, though inconsistent in some minor details in the works, does show how all of the events in his universe are intertwined by focusing on the major events that actually did affect other places/times in his universe. (i.e. the fate of Earth, the origins and development of psychohistory, etc.) In many of his earlier works, he experimented with the nature and history of this "plausible universe", especially dealing with robots. Many authors tackle this concept of one universe, many stories. One other example (not too well tied together) is Ray Bradbury. _The_Martian_Chronicles_ is a collection of stories, all dealing with Mars, and all in some sort of jumbled chronology, and even with many conflicting events. But they all take place in the same universe. Even his refrences to the events of _Faranheit_451_ in the short story "Usher II" show the continuity of universe throughout many of his works, not just one book. Also, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. comes to mind with _Breakfast_of_Champions_, _God_Bless_You_Mr._Rosewater_, and _Deadeye_Dick_, all of which are set in the same "plausible universe" yet have very little otherwise to do with each other. No, the problem with recent Asimov works does not lie in the fact that he tied his previous series together. The problem is one of publishing. Asimov has reached the point now where he doesn't have to sell his books to the publisher, they contract with him even before he writes the stories down. For each of his last few novels, Doubleday has paid him to write "a 400-page novel as part of the Robot series" or something like that. What is wrong is that the stories are able to be told in far, far less than 400 pages (more like 150-200), so what comes out is a lot of repetitious dialog that neither advances the story nor enhances the characterizations, therefore the stories tend to get rather tedious, although good and very typical Asimov in all other respects. Question: It is true that Mel Brooks is making a Star Wars take-off? if so, does anyone have any details? Rodney Elin Computer Information and Resource Center/User Sercvices (CIRCUS) Center for Academic and Administrative Computing The George Washington University Washington, DC Bitnet: KL791C@GWUVM Arpanet: KL791C%GWUVM@WISCVM.WISC.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 12:01 PDT From: Trigg.pa@Xerox.COM Subject: Looking for Tik-Tok A question for all the Oz fanatics out there: Can anyone tell me the list of Oz books that contain pictures (either the full page ones or the small sketches) of Tik-Tok? For example, I'd like to find the one showing Dorothy winding up Tik-Tok. I found a bunch of these in Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib", but unfortunately, Ted included no references. This is for a friend who's looking for ideas for a cover illustration for her book on human-machine interaction. Please respond directly to me as I'm not on SFLovers. Thanks much. Randy Trigg.pa@Xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 02:50:16 GMT From: ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Looking for Tik-Tok From: Trigg.pa@Xerox.COM > A question for all the Oz fanatics out there: Can anyone tell me > the list of Oz books that contain pictures (either the full page > ones or the small sketches) of Tik-Tok? For example, I'd like to > find the one showing Dorothy winding up Tik-Tok. I found a bunch > of these in Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib", but unfortunately, Ted > included no references. This is for a friend who's looking for > ideas for a cover illustration for her book on human-machine > interaction. _Ozma of Oz_? I DO know that the plate you want is in the first book he appears in. One where Dorothy and the Hen go to Oz in a waterspout.... Seems like he was in a cave near the giant with the broom... (Hey, it's been a while, OK? 8-) Eric ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 11:57:00 EDT From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" Subject: Stars My Destination and Bester Ken Papai BITNET: IKJP400@INDYCMS asked >Does anyone know where I can find a copy of _The Stars My >Destination_ ?? I've been drawing blanks for the last couple of >years and I am getting desperate. Maybe ANALOG magazine can >help... This has probably been already asnwered many times by now, but.... Well, if you want a hardcover copy, I just saw an advertisement in the May Locus pp. 22-23 offering it from Franklin Watts, Inc. Dept SC, 387 Park Ave. South, NY,NY 10016. They also say a few words about it in the Books Received -March on p.38. I got my copy of it some 10 or 11 years ago at Barnes and Noble (the real big one in NY). I remember reading it. It just drew me in and I couldn't help but continue reading it. After reading that I decided to read more Bester. I read _The Demolished Man_ which disturbed me a little, but overall it was a good experience, _The Computer Connection_ which was not very memorable, and then _Golem 100_ (sp?). The ending of Golem really left a bad taste in my mouth and completely turned me off. I have not read any Bester since then. Neil A. Ottenstein OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU via Arpanet OTTEN@UMCINCOM via Bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 13:54:21 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Uplift War and Stephen Donaldson (no spoilers) I think David Brin has been looking at the Covenant books with envy. Now *he's* branching out into 'improved English'. From one paragraph [italics mine]: "...and of course a gaggle of *cachinatous* humans..... She remembered her attitude then, upon seeing so many of the *atrichic, bromopnean* creatures." With a good dictionary, a decent language background, and knowledge of context, one can figure out what the words mean. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 87 04:35:39 GMT From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction holly@dartvax.UUCP (Holly Cabell) writes: > On a different track, I saw a book mentioned that I would like to > find again. The book contained something about Tyco Brahe and a > planet with mushrooms, or something. Could someone find the > author/title for me? It would be much appreciated. Thanks in > advance. It's a series of five books (juveniles) by Eleanor Cameron. The first is called The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet; others are Stowaway to the Mushroom Planet, Mr. Bass' Planetoid, and Time and Mr. Bass. One of the main characters is named Tyco Bass (NOT Brahe); hence those two titles. I don't remember the other book, or the order (though I suspect somebody will post them all sooner or later). I got somewhat the same impression with these as with Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising; the first couple of books were definitely written for children (age 10 to 11), but the writing style matures through the series. Not to say the later ones are "adult" books, of course; just less obviously aimed at 10-year-olds. jed hartman {{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 87 09:57:27 GMT From: th@tcom.stc.co.uk (Tony Hutchinson) Subject: Belgariad Well, I've just finished reading the Belgariad. It is possibly one of the most enjoyable books I've read in a long time. Alright, most of the plot was sign posted in the first book and the style of writing was hardly classic, but I loved it! And now the big question...I've heard rumours on this group about a sequel. Are they true ? And if so, when can we expect it ? Tony H. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 87 04:14:54 GMT From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell) Subject: Re: MAGIC and SCIENCE tecot@apple.UUCP (Ed Tecot) writes: >XDWJ@ECNCDC.BITNET writes: >>From: Darrell Johns >> >> Another book (or series of books) that deal with science and >>magic is the SPELLSINGER by Alan Dean Foster. In the SPELLSINGER, >>what is science in our world is magic in the world in which this >>story is set. > >An excellent book. As a matter of fact, I read this due to a >recommendation from this newsgroup. The cover says "book 1", are >there sequels to this story? I can't say that I have as high an opinion of Spellsinger. Although I wouldn't pan it, I can't quite recommend it either. Probably the single most irritating aspect of the book was that it was only half a book. You are left hanging at the end of the first book, and it's either buy the second book, or not know how things turn out. Now, I don't know if this is a common thing in publishing, but it stinks. It probably put me off of Spellsinger more than anything else. Chris Russell Computer Aided Design Lab University of Maryland Arpa: russell@king.ee.umd.edu UUCP: ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell Jnet: russell@umcincom Fone: (301)454-8886 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 19:55:54 GMT From: lkeber@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (LAK) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction There is a sequel to "The Star Kings" by Hamilton, called "Return to the Stars". Larry ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 23:36:06 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Fire and Hemlock by Diana Wynne Jones >Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM >I really enjoyed it [F&H], and think it's better than Charmed >Lives, Dogsbody, or the Spell Coat. . . Most of her books are worth reading. See also "Witch Week", "Cart and Cwider" and especially "Power of Three". That last had the incredibly bad luck to be published under the Magicquest (is that how it's spelled?) logo which has excellent titles but which looks like a create-your-own-adventure for seven-year-olds. >FYI: *Dahlov Ipcar* expands Tam Lin in one novel, and the song >Elf-Call in another. In "A Dark Horn Blowing" she expands "Elf-Call", but also elements of several other Child ballads including "The Outland Knight"/"Pretty Polly". In fact, she throws in *too* many ballads for enjoyment. Which book is the Tam Lin story in? Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 18:59:12 GMT From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok) Subject: Re: Mega-ology phil@rice.edu writes: On Isaac Asimov: >To prove that he's better than Larry Niven in consistency as well >as writing ability? :-) :-) :-) > >Don't get me wrong.....I like both Niven and Asimov. I also like both authors, but I never quite believe in Niven's characters. They all seem a little too footloose and fancy-free to me. They also seem a little too infallible (even the fallible ones). I don't know, maybe they just make me insecure or something, but they don't seem real for some reason. I know, this isn't reality, but the characters are so far out of the norm that it's annoying sometimes. Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 1987 10:53 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: About Terminator: Have you ever read Saberhagen's "Brother Assassin"? It's about an attempt by the Berserker Robots to send robot assassins into various points in a planet's past in order to destroy that planet. Naturally, there is also a human who is sent to stop them. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 13:07:45 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@RUTGERS.EDU (Royal White) Subject: Re: About Terminator: From: "Stephen R. Balzac" > Have you ever read Saberhagen's "Brother Assassin"? It's about >an attempt by the Berserker Robots to send robot assassins into >various points in a planet's past in order to destroy that planet. >Naturally, there is also a human who is sent to stop them. Oh boy, a Berserker topic to talk about. I'm a big fan of the Berserker series. The difference between the robot assassin and the Terminator is that the Terminator was enclosed in a living biosphere. Thus he was externally a living human. Berserkers never get close to human. They just send very efficient killing machines which is what they are. I'll have to check my copyright dates on my books. Did Harlan borrow from Saberhagen? Just kidding. Berserkers are nasty, nasty critters. I watched the movie "Short Circuit" with a totally different perspective when it came out. Royal White Jr. seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite work: 703-749-2384 ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 15:22:35 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Lost E. E. 'Doc' Smith work >Mentor very definitely discussed the issue of mates with one of the >girls, resulting in her realizing that she was complete in herself: >she did not need a mate. Wrong on two counts. First, she is brought to realize that she is still too *young* for a mate. She has been judging herself by first-stage standards. Second, we are told *explicitly* that she does not yet realize that there already exists a man who is her perfect mate. By implication, this can only be Kit. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 87 13:03:29 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Green Lantern/Lensman From: aplvax!jwm (Jim Meritt) > Has anyone else noticed the remarkable similiarities > between D.C.'s Guardians of the Galaxy with their Green Lantern > Corps and "Doc" E. E. Smith's Arisians with their Lensmen? nActually, this is old news to a lot of us. The Green Lantern Corps has always been a sort of tribute to Smith. Surely you don't think it coincidental that two of the GL's are named Arisia and Eddore. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 8 Jun 87 0857-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #272 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jun 87 0857-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #272 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 272 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - First SF (16 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 May 87 13:10:46 GMT From: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks) Subject: First SF Story Well, I remember my first real SF/Fantasy book as being Anne McCaffrey's 'DragonQuest'. I had been an avid dragon fan as a junior high student, and the cover of that book caught my eye & held it. It wasn't until after I had read the book that I realized I had read the SECOND book of a series, so I naturally went back to my local library & searched for 'DragonFlight'. Needless to say, those books started an obsession with Fantasy stories, and a slight digression into true SF stories. I think of myself of more of a fantasy fan than true SF (maybe its because of all those Roman, Greek and Norse myths I read when I was very young), but I enjoy a good SF book now & then. I have a couple questions for all you netters; maybe someone can help me. First: Who were the authors (I know there are two) of the 'StarChild Trilogy'? I remember reading it my freshman year of high school, and haven't been able to find it since in any book store around here -- I want to try to order it thru an out-of-print book shop, if I can. Second: Anyone out there know when (or If) the next story in 'The Dragonriders of Pern' is coming out? Joanne Brooks U of Maryland Computer Science Ctr Consulting Staff Internet: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu Bitnet: BROOKSJ@UMDD.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 87 04:13:44 GMT From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction My first exposure to sf was through a book that seems to have been forgotten in recent times: Edmond Hamilton's "The Star Kings". This is unabashed space opera, makes really no scientific sense... and is great fun. I read it in a terrible Portuguese translation, under a title translating as "War in the Galaxy". I was eight or nine, and I was *terrified*, especially by the scene where the villain (Shorr Khan, I think his name was...) is about to wipe the hero's brain clean. Of course, it all works out well in the end. The effect was to create some unforgettable memories, and a lifelong interest in sf. I've since re-read the book more than once, and it seems to still work (even though it is all absurd)... But maybe it's just all those memories. Fernando Q. Gouvea Department of Mathematics 1 Oxford Street Cambridge, MA 02138 gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA gouvea@harvma1.BITNET ...!harvard!huma1!gouvea ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 87 17:34:42 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction I've been waiting to see who was crazy enough to follow-up. Now that I see I'm in good company,... I was about 7 or 8. My only experience with sf was movies, and bad movies at that: I thought "science fiction" was another way to pronounce "Godzilla". I read a book by Alan E. Nourse called _The_Universe_Between_ (which, coincidentally, was recently discussed here). Actually, I'm kinda surprised I could understand what a "matter transmitter" was: it's a tribute to how well Nourse writes. I picked it up in, of all places, the grade school library. I noticed the little rocket-piercing-an-atom (don't ask) on the spine, stuffed my book- bag with everything in that library with that tag, went home, locked myself in my room for a few weeks and read EVERY DAMNED ONE OF THEM! I still haven't fully recovered. Bill Kaufman seismo!ames!orion!kaufman kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 87 15:51:41 GMT From: marcus@wanginst.edu (Bob Marcus) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction Theodore Sturgeon. And I have yet to find another writer -- in any genre, from any country, in any time -- whose stories affect me in the same way. If not for the "stigma" of being a science-fiction writer, he would surely be considered one of the great writers of our time. One person's opinion, of course, but I know that many, many others agree. Bob Marcus Wang Institute of Graduate Studies Tyng Road, Tyngsboro, MA 01879 (617) 649-9731 marcus@wanginst (CSNET) decvax!wanginst!marcus (UUCP) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 87 23:59:16 GMT From: crew@decwrl.dec.com (Roger Crew) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction Hey, let's not forget that classic series by Victor Appleton II, Tom Swift. I knocked off twenty-six of these (with titles like Tom Swift and his Rocket Ship Tom Swift and his SubOcean Geotron ) when I was sick with chicken pox back in 4th grade... Actually, as I understand it, this was the second of 3 of these series. The first was by Victor Appleton I, was written in the 1920's, with titles like ``Tom Swift and his Motorbike,'' and had to do with Tom Swift Sr., the father of the Tom Swift in the second series. The third series started fairly recently [within the last 10 years...] and I know almost nothing about it; I could take a wild guess and say it's by Victor Appleton III, but who knows... Doubtless, someone out there has a complete list of all of the books in all three series ('' he said categorically... :-) Roger Crew@sushi.stanford.edu {everywhere.else}!decwrl!crew ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 87 21:00:28 GMT From: jnp@calmasd.ge.com (John Pantone) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction Lo these many years ago, in aproximately 1957 or 1958 I read a couple of books in a series for young children which started me on Science Fiction. The single book I remember well, of the series, involved the common 2 characters (an astronaut-type and his cat) who went to Venus. When there they found that the plant life was sentient, and, furthermore, if they carried a piece of moss with them (in lockets) they could read each other's minds. I particularly remember marveling at the clever way the astronaut made the lockets "turn-on and off" the mind-reading - one side was lead; when turned against the body it would prevent the moss from working. I guess I was into "hard" science fiction even then! Anybody remember the name of the cat and or series? John M. Pantone GE Calma R&D Data Management Group San Diego {ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp jnp@calmasd.GE.COM ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 87 11:30:54 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction From: "Leeanna_Dibrell.OsbuSouth"@Xerox.COM > ... So people, what SF story did you first read and why did it > hook you to SF? What a great question! Ah, the happy memories.....The first science fiction story I read at 8 was a Big Little Book (now these good for a pretty good price, how I wished I had saved mine) called Flash Gordon. It opened a door for me into another more glorious world than my boring, miserable, mundane I lived in. Much like Dorothy coming from a non-color world opening the door into Oz and everything sprang into technicolor. At 8 I had not heard the word science fiction but fell in love with the genre right then and there and have continued reading and writing it ever since. Why did it hook me onto SF? It showed me that there was something exciting and adventuresome beyond the dull and restricted life I was leading. It took me into places I had never been which seemed believable (I always had a great imagination so nothing in SF ever seemed incompatibe to my way of thinking). Also for me, as a female, it showed a woman going on these adventures and being part of them (however limited as a go along Dale Arden may have been). I hoped someday, when I grew up, that I would be able to have exciting adventures too. That didn't happen exactly the way I had thought it would, but I continue to enjoy the genre, cons, etc. anyway. Leeanna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 87 16:31:57 EDT From: martinte@WPAFB-FDL.ARPA Subject: First SF/F My first experience with SF came in the form of a fantasy novel by Terry Brooks _The Sword of Shanara_. I know this is not exactly what Ewan is looking for,but it is all I have to offer. I picked this book up about four years on a whim because I was tired of all the mystery and horror novels that I had been reading. After reading it, I knew that I would be reading this type of novel for some time to come. I had never read anything that fasinated me as much as that book. I then preceded to read the rest of the Brooks series, and followed that up with the six Covenant books by Donaldson. Because of my initial SF/F introduction, I have never even read a *real* SF boks until about a year ago with Chalker's( sp?) _Rings of the Master_ Series. I am still plowing through my endless fantasy novels and stories, but I believe I have found an even greater lover in SF. Being on the net has given enough titles to keep me busy for the next five years!! Thanks. P.S. Would you believe I have **never** read a Heinlein book!!! T. E. Martin Wright-Patterson AFB Dayton. OH 45433 (513) 255-6190 ------------------------------ Date: 2 June 1987 16:38:16 CDT From: Subject: RE: First SF Does anyone remember the Danny Dunn series of stories? It's not the absolute first SF that I ever read, but it's about as far back as I remember. Paul R. Pudaite BITNET: Pudaite@UIUCVMD ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 87 22:46:12 GMT From: robert@spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen) Subject: Re: First SF From: >Does anyone remember the Danny Dunn series of stories? It's not >the absolute first SF that I ever read, but it's about as far back >as I remember. I recall "Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine" and something like "Danny Dunn goes to Mars". I recall that I appreciated Danny Dunn because he had goals I could identify with at the time (such as building a device to help him write his punishment sentences at twice his normal speed). No here's a question for trivia buffs; what was the name of the computer in "Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine"? Robert Allen, robert@spam.istc.sri.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue 2 Jun 87 16:54:17-PDT From: Diana Egly Subject: First Science Fiction Unquestionably, it was the Dr. Dolittle books for me. The premise that one could study animal behavior and then use the results of your reasearch to communicate with them is clearly a scientific premise. But I also remember the good doctor making a trip to the moon... My second science fiction was my involvement with another good doctor in the I, Robot stories. No, not Dr. A., but rather Dr. Susan Calvin. And I still love her... ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 03:03:13 GMT From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction Most of the "first sf" postings seem to be about books that people read when they were children. I was wondering what books might be a good first exposure to sf for an adult, especially for one already interested in literature in general. Did anyone out there start reading sf under such conditions? Do people have suggestions as to which book one should recommend to a friend interested in trying sf at least once? Fernando Q. Gouvea Department of Mathematics 1 Oxford Street Cambridge, MA 02138 gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA gouvea@harvma1.BITNET ...!harvard!huma1!gouvea ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 87 04:15:39 GMT From: princeton!dartvax!holly@RUTGERS.EDU (Holly Cabell) Subject: First Science Fiction I, too, read The Hobbit and the LotR, but, unlike many, it seems, I found them very difficult to read. I fell into the pattern of reading several pages and then putting the book down for a month. Perhaps I was too young, or perhaps I just found discovering a civilization too much and would have preferrred just reading a story. Did anyone else feel that way? On a different track, I saw a book mentioned that I would like to find again. The book contained something about Tyco Brahe and a planet with mushrooms, or something. Could someone find the author/title for me? It would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. Ian Cabell holly@dartvax ------------------------------ Date: Wed 3 Jun 87 00:28:52-PDT From: Robert Wentworth Subject: First SF Heinlein and Tolkien hooked me on SF/fantasy in sixth grade. (Back then I thought of _Lord_of_the_Rings_ as "The Trilogy", not knowing that "trilogy" was a generic term). But a much more interesting memory relates to _Journey_Outside_, a fantasy by Mary Q. Steel(e). A school librarian read the first two chapters to us in perhaps fifth grade. I was intrigued, and wanted to read the rest, but I didn't get a chance, and in fact didn't even know the author or the title of the book. I wondered about that book for many years---I wanted to know how it turned out. Finally, seventeen or so years later, I went back to my old school library and managed to find it. Reading that book after so many years of anticipation was one of the greatest joys I've ever experienced. Bob W. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 06:31:11 GMT From: ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster) Subject: Re: First SF PUDAITE@UIUCVMD.BITNET writes: >Does anyone remember the Danny Dunn series of stories? It's not >the absolute first SF that I ever read, but it's about as far back >as I remember. You mean like "Danny Dunn and the Smallifying Machine"? Sure, I loved those books as a kid. There was one other I remember, which had a new invention: A COMPUTER, which was capable of astounding things such as algebra, word processing, and writing music (gasp shock)! I don't remember the title though. Anyway, greatly entertaining books, even now when you don't want to stretch your brain too much. Ed Ahrenhoerster ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 16:48:16 GMT From: khudson@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (Urlord) Subject: Re: First SF (experiences and recommendations for "adults") ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Ed Ahrenhoerster) writes: >PUDAITE@UIUCVMD.BITNET writes: >>Does anyone remember the Danny Dunn series of stories? It's not >>the absolute first SF that I ever read, but it's about as far back >>as I remember. > >You mean like "Danny Dunn and the Smallifying Machine"? Sure, I >loved those books as a kid. There was one other I remember, which >had a new invention: A COMPUTER, which was capable of astounding >things such as algebra, word They were fairly good childrens books for adventure type stories. Several other story lines dealt with time travel, a freeze ray, and a miniature camera and microphone setup in a mechanical fly (you wore a helmet and basically became the fly). I don't really remember my first SF/Fantasy story, but I do remember my 4th grade teacher reading _The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe_ to the class. She also tried to read _Jaws_ to us, but stopped when she realized how "controversial" it is (especially to 4th graders). I just read alot: mystery, SF, and Fantasy; I still have most of the books that I've read. As for recommendations for "adults", I think that three books by Madeline L'Engle are great for "children of all ages". _A Wrinkle in Time_ _A Wind in The Door_ _A Swiftly Tilting Planet_ If the person believes that the journey is more important than the end, he/she should read the two Thomas Covenant series by Stephen R. Donaldson. They are long and difficult reading, (buy only the first book to see if you like them) but they are very good. At least that's my opinion. /8^) Kevin Hudson UUCP: khudson@hawk.CS.Ulowell.UUCP USnail: 85 Gershom Ave #3 Lowell, MA 01854 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 8 Jun 87 0909-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #273 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jun 87 0909-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #273 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 273 Today's Topics: Books - Friedman (8 msgs) & Zelazny (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Jun 87 11:39:35 PDT From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: In Conquest Born Cc: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu > [btw, I have no idea if C.S. Friedman is a man or a woman woman. >>I was *hoping* for *synthesis*, that they would turn their >>`honorable hatred' to constructive ends, > > I think any ending would have been disappointing in some way. > Most of the obvious ones would have come off as just plain stupid, > and I think that's something Friedman wanted to avoid. This one > comes across, to me, as being incomplete. It was left as a large grey. Yes, it is somewhat incomplete, but so is real life, last I looked. I find the concept of synthesis fascinating. How can two people on cultures such as Friedman wrote even HOPE to come up with some kind of true understanding? They aren't just enemies, they are culturally incompatible -- each was brought up to believe that the others were baby eating heathens that were no better than the scum of a sceptic tank. Any thought that a person can fight their way through centuries of social conditioning to come to some kind of real relationship is unrealistic. (From their point of view, it wouldn't be love, it would be bestiality...) > I think that anyone reading the book, though, will have an > ending or two in mind before the end of the book. Yup, and the ending she took wasn't mine. I liked it, though, turning the one possible tool for hope into the ultimate weapon. A rather bleak ending, but I think an appropriate one for the cultures involved. > I think there are other endings that would have provided better > avenues towards a sequel. And I've been told there is no sequel planned. Friedman is currently working on a second book that has nothing to do with Conquest. (yay! don't ruin a good thing!) chuq ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 19:45:18 GMT From: umix!itivax!chinet!megabyte@RUTGERS.EDU (Dr. Megabyte) Subject: Comments on reviews of _In Conquest Born_ (Minor Spoilers) A lot of people have commented on how they don't like the ending of this book. Various things have been said about why it is bad. I liked the ending. I am so sick and tired of books that tie up ever single loose end and leave no room for the reader to explor his/her own thoughts. It _is_ an open ended ending. This give you the room to speculate, discuss, and think about what the results on the two cultures will be. I don't buy that the ending is there just to set up a sequel as I have it on good authority that C.S. Friedman is not planning a sequel to _In Conquest Born_. As to Zatar getting a "punishment" at the end, Nonsense! Zatar will adapt. He will find a women whose psychic thougths during sex he will be able to internalize. As to a "punishment", well I kind of like that the mighty Kaim'era _Finally_ has had something that didn't turn out the way he planned it. I mean all his life, ever plan he has made has come off. Isn't good to know he's not perfect? Oh, anyone who thinks that Zatar and Anzha should have settled down, ruled Braxi, and raised a family, should suffer the Black Death. Mark E. Sunderlin UUCP: seismo!why_not!scsnet!sunder ihnp4!chinet!megabyte (202) 634-2529 Mail: IRS PM:PFR:D:NO 1111 Constitution Ave. NW Washington,DC 20224 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jun 87 09:59:41 PDT From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: In Conquest Born > I don't think it's a moral afterthought. His "punishment" is > personally disastrous, but I don't think it'll harm his status as > a ruler at all. Oh, no? He's going to be completely useless in his dealings with Azea, because he will know that he can be bested by them -- which makes him useless as a ruler. He's also be seriously affected emotionally by something in a society where emotion isn't acceptable. And he's had his self-confidence shattered. The other Braxana will eat him like the sharks they are. Being invincible and superior only works as long as someone doesn't prove you wrong. That's the basic problem with being macho -- it is all ego, and if the ego is beaten, the whole basis for your personality disintegrates. >> Or is it - dread thought - just an after-the-fact alteration to >> prepare for a sequel? Arrrgh! > > That's my impression,too. Except, of course, that I've been told no sequel is planned. If you read the book carefully, you'll find that the ending is set up throughout the thing -- it isn't an afterthought. While Zatar and friends are the obvious enemies, look closely at Azea -- they aren't exactly shining examples of neat folks you invite to move in down the street. In my eyes, Azea is the worse culture, frankly: the Braxin, while nasty bastards, are at least open and honest about their nastiness and warlike tendencies (and revel in them). Azea, on the other hand hides their warlust under a canopy of trying to preserve the peace (through war). And look at the psychic institute -- they not only think nothing about taking a person and turning them into a mindless weapon for their cause (without bothering to tell them or letting them volunteer....) but they feel that this is the way it ought to be. feh. I cheered when they got nuked, frankly. But the institute brings up an interesting point, which is why I think the ending is well set up. Was Anzha acting of free will, or was she designed to be what she is to be a weapon against Zatar? The Institute could well have given her some very deep conditioning to force her into exactly that situation, and to react exactly as she did, knowing that it was the most effective weapon against Zatar and Braxa that could be designed. chuq ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jun 87 21:24:34 edt From: dykimber@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) To: chuq@Sun.COM, sf-lovers%plaid@Sun.COM Subject: Re: In Conquest Born Yes, science fiction writers that can move on to fresh new projects are a rare breed indeed. But in any case, with regard to your point about the inconclusive nature of the ending - I think that while it's true that life doesn't always have a nice tidy ending, that's one of the reasons we tell stories - stories are those bits of life that are interesting enough to write about. And while I don't mind an ending that's inconclusive [many of the best SF books are that way], I do get upset when I feel that I haven't been told the entire story. But in any case it's good to hear that she's writing new stuff - good new writers like C.S. Friedman are hard to come by, and it's good to hear she's not planning on stagnating [as if anyone does!] Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jun 87 21:59:35 PDT From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) To: dykimber@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, sf-lovers%plaid@Sun.COM Subject: Re: In Conquest Born > But in any case, with regard to your point about the inconclusive > nature of the ending - I think that while it's true that life > doesn't always have a nice tidy ending, that's one of the reasons > we tell stories - stories are those bits of life that are > interesting enough to write about. And while I don't mind an > ending that's inconclusive [many of the best SF books are that > way], I do get upset when I feel that I haven't been told the > entire story. But I think we were told the entire story, or as much story as was worth telling. Braxa, in that single moment at the end, lost the war. It'll take some time, true, but Azea is the victor. But the story from here to ultimate victory is boring -- basically space opera, and in my mind a terrible anti-climax. Now, a story 1000 years AFTER the last battle.... but that's a whole different sequel.... chuq ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 20:55:11 GMT From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic) Subject: Re: In Conquest Born (some spoilers) chuq@Sun.COM writes (about the ending): >>>I was *hoping* for *synthesis*, that they would turn their >>>`honorable hatred' to constructive ends, >> >> I think any ending would have been disappointing in some way. >> Most of the obvious ones would have come off as just plain >> stupid, and I think that's something Friedman wanted to avoid. >> This one comes across, to me, as being incomplete. > >It was left as a large grey. Yes, it is somewhat incomplete, but >so is real life, last I looked. Certainly. That doesn't keep this ending from being *disappointing* to me. The whole novel has built towards a final confrontation, and then it wimps out after not even a good try. I still think that there is a real *break* here, as if this ending has been written as an afterthought, not really in the flow of the story. >I find the concept of synthesis fascinating. How can two people on >cultures such as Friedman wrote even HOPE to come up with some kind >of true understanding? They aren't just enemies, they are >culturally incompatible -- each was brought up to believe that the >others were baby eating heathens that were no better than the scum >of a sceptic tank. Any thought that a person can fight their way >through centuries of social conditioning to come to some kind of >real relationship is unrealistic. (From their point of view, it >wouldn't be love, it would be bestiality...) Hm. You are certainly right that the two cultures are about as antagonistic as possible (and still be viable). However, both protagonists are by far not typical members of their societies, and hardly bound by their conditioning. In fact, one of the central motives of the story is how the two develop farther and farther away from their cultural roots and heritage, driven by circumstance but mainly their inner nature. Consider the scene after the foiled assasination plot, when they first touch. Friedman makes it rather clear that at this point, Anzha's mindset is pretty close to a Braxana's *honorable hatred*, and she goes further into that direction until at the end, she is wholly motivated by it. Conversely, Zatar's relation to his women breaks major rules of his society, and when towards the end he uses a full-blown telepath for his purposes and those of the Empire, instead of killing him on the spot (as his culture would demand), he has practically divorced himself from his cultural heritage. Notice how during these parallel developments, they both assimilate and use ideas of the `other side', in increasing measure. To a certain degree, their ways actually *converge*. That does not, of course, mean *acceptance* of or even *tolerance* towards the physical enemy, but it means a blending of ideas and concepts that increasingly blurs their `cultural incompatibility'. When I said *synthesis*, I certainly wasn't thinking along the lines of `they married and lived happily ever after'. The Braxana notion of *constructive hatred* may furnish the key. Why have the Braxana not yet killed each other off? Because they are prepared to keep their *hatred* in check where it would not benefit them to indulge in it. They are perfectly able to cooperate with enemies when it is necessary or beneficial. Towards the end, Anzha has pretty much adopted this mindset, so why shouldn't they engage in a relation of *constructive hatred*? After all, they are both in dire straits - Anzha is completely isolated, without any cultural roots; if at all, her roots may be in (ancient) Braxana culture! Zatar is the (restricted) head of a culture that is far into the process of decay and self-destruction, and for better or worse by then he has picked up some altruistic traits (though he would certainly deny it). It isn't even necessary for the two to *understand* each other, as long as both see chances of *using* each other, potentially benefiting from each other. And from such a basis, they just can't help but learn from each other. To be sure, such a (beginning) synthesis is just one of many possible endings. For example, a finale where their mental encounter turns into a fight and they both die would *feel right* to me (though I wouldn't like it). My complaint about Friedman's `solution' is that it isn't one; it builds up tremendous tension and then just... leaves. Certainly Anzha could conceivably have acted that way. What she does is pretty much giving up after getting in a last dig at the enemy. I would think she has more strength and determination than that. All completely subjective, of course; perhaps I'm just not subtle enough... perry@inteloa.intel.com tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 87 22:00:44 edt From: dykimber@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) To: chuq@Sun.COM Subject: Re: In Conquest Born Well, maybe so. I suppose that in a sense we were told the entire story, it just seems like we missed the end since it was given short shrift. I don't agree, though, that the Braxins have lost the battle, but rather that they are going to undergo a period of transformation [oops, that wasn't a sentence - the second clause is my idea] with the last remnants of the old leadership dying out. I would hate to think that C.S. Friedman wanted us to feel that either side was going to obliterate the other. In any case, I'd hate to see any sequel to this book, even one 1000 years after the events of the first - despite its weaknesses, I thought it was fantastic, and I'd hate to see anything ruin that feeling. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 22:30:37 GMT From: wayne@hpldola.hp.com (Wayne Angevine) Subject: Re: Comments on reviews of _In Conquest Born_ (Minor Subject: Spoilers) I found "In Conquest Born" very interesting and stimulating. I don't think I can say I "liked" the ending, but I thought it was suitable to the rest of the book. What I found most interesting about the book as a whole was this: It presented a classic scenario - good guys in white hats, bad guys in black hats, etc. - except that they weren't really. I suppose that on the whole the Braxana were a lot harder to like than the Azeans, but I found Zatar rather sympathetic and Anzha somewhat less so. I couldn't simply put the characters in a box and expect to know what they were going to do next. Isn't this a lot like the "real world?" Yet while doing this, Friedman didn't end up with a "value free" or depressingly existential work. There were values, they simply weren't always adhered to by anybody. Another point - I felt that she was able to create two societies, the average representative of either of which would think the other completely alien, and yet make them both believable and consistent. That's something I've not seen many writers do successfully. Wayne Angevine ...hpldola!wayne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 87 20:35:10 PDT From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Sign of Chaos The latest Publisher's Weekly has the announcement on the new Zelazny book. Sign of Chaos, the third in the second trilogy of Amber, will be published by Arbor House in hardback in October. Also, Locus announced that Zelazny has signed for two more Amber books, bringing the size of the second Amber trilogy to a total of five books (which matches the size of the first trilogy, for that matter). So don't expect this book to finalize everything.... chuq ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 14:12:33 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!hwcs!hwee!sutherla@RUTGERS.EDU (I. Sutherland) Subject: Need 'Amber' sequel info I've read Roger Zelazny's first Amber quintilogy and enjoyed it. About a year ago I bought 'Trumps of Doom' featuring the story of Corwin's son, which very obviously must have a sequel, but I have never seen it. I think I have seen mention of what is probably the sequel on the net news, so could somebody please tell me what the book is called and who publishes it. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 8 Jun 87 0923-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #274 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jun 87 0923-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #274 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 274 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (6 msgs) & Spider Robinson (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Jun 87 16:33:54 GMT From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL (One More Time) SIASL = "Stranger in a Strange Land" > k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) > WHY I HATE HEINLEIN (IN GENERAL): > [...] I detest *everything* I've read by him [...] > 1. Characterizations (irregardless of gender) are wooden, and the > plot drives what little character development there is > 2. *Most* female characters are there as "window dressing". > 3. Heinlein just plain doesn't write well. Well, I agree with these points (excepting the third, which is simply a statement of opinion, and my opinion differs). Taking "plot" as being more or less "what happens", my own opinion is that Heinlein tells interesting stories about wooden, rigid characters, and that his female characters are notably less lifelike than his male characters. But this is true of many, many writers, and Heinlein is not horribly worse than other examples of this. In other words, I can't see these three holding up as reasons for "hate" or "detestation". > REGARDING SIASL & HOMOPHOBIA IN PARTICULAR: > 1. The quote comes from Jill (a character), not from Heinlein. > Actually, I don't give a *&#@$% what Heinlein *thinks*, the > question is, "what does he *write*?", particularly in SIASL (so, > bringing up other works is a bit irrelevant as to what makes SIASL > offensive). But-but-but... this was not bringing up other works, this was pointing out that things that Jill says cannot be taken as unambiguously indicative of the message that the book actually delivers. In particular, I pointed out that I personally found that the book as a whole discredited the (rather mild, in my opinion) homophobic statement that Jill made. What *Jill* says is not necessarily what the *book* says. And, in fact, I think this is the case in SIASL. > 2. The quote comes from Jill, not from Mike or Jubal (ostensibly > the philosophical "mouthpieces" of the work). This explanation I > might buy, except for the fact that Mike goes along with her [...] Mike also, at the climactic scene of the book, went back to his androgynous appearance, and (if I'm remembering correctly) said "I love you" to one of his male attackers. My point being that in this scene and a few others Mike *after* he matures throws off many rote social restrictions imposed on him before he had matured. The message again is clear (at least, it was to me). Mike did NOT swallow Jill's advice whole. > We also never see Mike actually in a homosexual relationship, or > even in a homosexual encounter in a group sex situation. Well, I agree that the book is certainly not strongly pro-homosex. In fact, it only deals with the issue in passing in a handful of scenes. But this is not at all the same as finding the book homophobic. *That* I don't see any real justification for. Further, since sex scenes are all "off-screen" in SIASL, there is no direct evidence that Mike did not engage in homosexual activity, and some indirect evidence that he did. Certainly, he engaged in group sex, and it is fairly certain that he kissed and caressed male characters "on-screen". > 3. Mike does not understand the prevailing cultural reaction to > homosexuality and Jill is concerned that she was failing in her > attempt to socialize Mike [...] This makes a bit more sense, but > I can't buy it for the same reasons as listed immediately above. As near as I can tell, this is saying that in order for SIASL to be considered non-homophobic, Mike would have had to have engaged in homosexual activity "on-screen". Again, I find this position a bit extreme at best. > 4. Setting up a character with one opinion and having that > character's ideas shot down is an effective way [to demonstrate > disagreement with that opinion]. The problem with this is that > Jill's homophobia is never effectively "shot down" by Mike. Not directly, true. But again, later events *do* contradict Jill's position. So while there is no direct confrontation between Jill and Mike on this issue, the claim that > This argument falls flat on its face. is, again, a bit extreme. > The most charitable thing I can say about Heinlein is to quote > someone (quoting someone else about Heinlein & sexism), "the poor > man tries, but he just doesn't have a hint." And yet again, I agree with this. But it seems to me that "hate" and "detestation" are inappropriate reactions to someone who "doesn't have a hint". "Pity" or "regret" seem more appropriate. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 22:03:29 GMT From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up? > dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) > [...] we meet Sky Marshal Samuel Beaux, who is described as being > "as beautiful as a black panther." I'll take this to mean that he > is black, not white. Why? Did you take it to mean that this person was a feline also? Not that I necessarily disagree with the proposition that Ames is black. But the above certainly isn't unambiguous evidence of anything much. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 13:47:19 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Cat Cover Art In "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls" I assumed that a) Ames was black b) The cover showed him white because it was thought that showing him black might cost sales. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 20:01:40 GMT From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore) Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up? ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes: >> Ok, Heinlein fans and bashers, here's an interesting tidbit for >> you: >> >> On the cover of The Cat Who Walks Through Walls is a couple we >> presume to be Hazel Stone and Richard Ames. Problem - Richard >> Ames is explicitly stated to be *black* in the novel and the man >> on the cover is white. Given the racism of our society, it is a lot easier to end up black than white. By this I mean that the child of a white father and a black mother would be considered black, and the child of that child and a white would still be considered black even though obviously (at least) three quarters white. Unfortunately black has been considered a contaminant, and any person with enough black ancestry to show at all was considered black. The book specifically states that Lazarus Long was Richard Ames biological father. Lazarus, with red hair, was probably a very pale white (your typical saxon phenotype, and probably genotype). Ames' mother was black --but how black? Certainly socially black, but quite possibly genotypically three quarters white. So, it is not at all unlikely that the fellow on the cover with the medium dark skin and largely caucasian features was meant to be a good depiction of Richard Ames, who, growing up in his mother's family, would be reguarded by others and by himself as 'socially' a black. Is anybody else on the net old enough to remember Adam Clayton Powell, who was socially and politically (built a career on it) a black man, but looked white to me? Carole Ashmore ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 87 09:19:00 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL (One More Time) throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: >> 1. Characterizations (irregardless of gender) are wooden, and the >> plot drives what little character development there is >> 2. *Most* female characters are there as "window dressing". >> 3. Heinlein just plain doesn't write well. > > Well, I agree with these points (excepting the third, which is > simply a statement of opinion, and my opinion differs). Taking > "plot" as being more or less "what happens", my own opinion is > that Heinlein tells interesting stories about wooden, rigid > characters, and that his female characters are notably less > lifelike than his male characters. But this is true of many, many > writers, and Heinlein is not horribly worse than other examples of > this. In other words, I can't see these three holding up as > reasons for "hate" or "detestation". Actually, I'm not sure how well this wooden character stuff holds up either. Characters vary, depending on their importance and purpose in the story. Some are wooden, some very human. Compare John Lyle in "If This Goes On" to Lazarus ("Hey Bud") Long in "Methuselah's Childred" to LL in "Time Enough for Love". >> The most charitable thing I can say about Heinlein is to quote >> someone (quoting someone else about Heinlein & sexism), "the poor >> man tries, but he just doesn't have a hint." > > And yet again, I agree with this. But it seems to me that "hate" > and "detestation" are inappropriate reactions to someone who > "doesn't have a hint". "Pity" or "regret" seem more appropriate. Regret, yes, if appropriate. I think the real problem that many people have with Heinlein is that he doesn't automatically include the reader on the side of the "good guys". While mapping out his own form of idealism, he is apt to ridicule at least one of the readers beliefs or cherished institutions. He makes it plain that you have to strive to become one of his chosen, not just be there or agree with him. Some people can enjoy this thing - others get offended and close the book. Of course, nobody's perfect many of the people that lap up Heinlein hate Bradbury of the anti-scientific leanings in his Martian Chronicles or Vonnegut's cycnicsm. The main point is not to confuse "I don't like" with "It's no good" with "It has no value" with "It's painful to discuss" et.al. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 87 09:29:32 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Cat Cover Art haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes: > In "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls" > I assumed that > a) Ames was black > b) The cover showed him white because it was thought that showing > him black might cost sales. I'd assume that it's the usual stupidity associated with cover art/blurbs, rather than any racial/economic motives. On good days, cover art is done from a plot summary or verbal description of what the cover should portray. Heinlein often assigns race to a character, but it's just not a major part of the plot and was probably overlooked. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 05:13:29 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Book request... nat%drao.nrc.cdn@UBC.CSNET: >Nebula award winners...And while I am at it, What is Spider >Robinson's SF like? I have seen his books, but never read anything >by him, except, Spider Robinson is rather like a non-senile Heinlein. Which means that if you hate Heinlein, you probably won't like Robinson. The exception is the Callahan's series (CALLAHAN'S CROSS-TIME SALOON, TIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH, and CALLAHAN'S SECRET); funny, punny (you have been warned!), and decidedly different. (Warning: The last story of CALLAHAN'S SECRET ("The Mick of Time") is widely held to be contradictory to the rest of the series; I happen to disagree, but you must as always come to your own conclusions.) Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, OH 44060 +01 216 255 1080 {decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 16:49:20 GMT From: quirk@europa.unm.edu Subject: Re: Book request... nat%drao.nrc.cdn@UBC.CSNET writes: >And while I am at it, What is Spider Robinson's SF like? I have >seen his books, but never read anything by him, except, I think, 1 >short story (or an excerpt) but that was too long ago to remember. >( This is just for my own personal interest, not for any >compilation..) Many thanks. Spider Robinson's _Callahan's_ stories are some of the best 'soft' SF--My definition--stories written. I highly reccommend them (Unless you HATE puns). I haven't read much of his other stuff, so I won't make any further comment. T. Kogoma quirk@europa.unm.edu {gatech:ucbvax:unm-la}!hc!hi!unmvax!quirk@europa ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 07:27:35 GMT From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: Spider Robinson allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >> Nebula award winners...And while I am at it, What is Spider >> Robinson's SF like? I have seen his books, but never read >> anything by him, except, > >Spider Robinson is rather like a non-senile Heinlein. Which means >that if you hate Heinlein, you probably won't like Robinson. The >exception is the Callahan's series (CALLAHAN'S CROSS-TIME SALOON, >TIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH, and CALLAHAN'S SECRET); funny, punny >(you have been warned!), and decidedly different. (Warning: The >last story of CALLAHAN'S SECRET ("The Mick of Time") is widely held >to be contradictory to the rest of the series; I happen to >disagree, but you must as always come to your own conclusions.) I don't know anybody who likes Spider Robinson who doesn't also like Heinlein, but the reverse is not true. My largest problem with Spider Robinson is that those characters which live in a world not too far removed from us in time seem to live in a society that I am totally unaware of. I find it extremely jarring. On the other hand, the Callahan's Bar Series is a great deal of fun, as are many of the shorts in *Melancholy Elephants*. Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 14:26:00 EDT From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" Subject: Spider Robinson In SF Digest Vol 12: Issue 270 Natalie Prowse asked on 2 Jun about Spider Robinson. I have enjoyed what I have read by him. I don't find it easy to describe what someone's writing is "like". The material I like the most by him is what I first read by him - the Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (or similar title) stories. I believe there are three collections or so of him that have these stories. They range from just purely humorous to very moving and involving stories. I also read his book Mindkiller and an earlier book by him the title of which I cannot remember. Mindkiller was a very enjoyable experience. To tell the truth, to tell too much about Mindkiller would spoil some of the surprises that he pulls on you. I think the first stories that I read by him were first published in OMNI. The first one was "Fivesight" (or something similar) and was a very moving Callahan's story. I had not heard of Spider at the time I read that and his name did not stick in my mind, but the story did. It was only later when I heard of Callahan's that I realized that "Fivesight" sounded like it might be a Callahan story and I was determined to find out and read those stories. The other story was "God Is an Iron" which I believe is the second chapter of Mindkiller. This is a very powerful story. Spider does like wordplay. I believe he and his wife collaborated on another book called Stardancing or something like that. That was also enjoyable, though I prefered Mindkiller. By the way he is going to be the GoH at Balticon next Easter. Neil A. Ottenstein OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU OTTEN@UMCINCOM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 8 Jun 87 0940-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #275 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jun 87 0940-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #275 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 275 Today's Topics: Books - Pournelle & Stasheff (7 msgs) & Tiptree & Tolkien & White (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - SF-Lovers T-shirt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Jun 87 09:03:36 GMT From: kevinb@crash.cts.com (Kevin Belles) Subject: Re: Janissaries III Storms of Victory, Janissaries III, is shown on the cover, spine, and jacket blurb as being by Jerry Pournelle. The book is actually co-written by Roland Green (the co-author of Clan_and_Crown), and shows both men's styles. A hint: while a good book, this is not the end of the series and judging by the amount of character developement in the book, there looks to be at least two more to go. A good read, but not quite as good overall as the preceding books, with (in my humble opinion) a muddied plot structure. With luck, though, the *next* one should be a doozie. In light of the recent Heinlein cover blooper, the merc is shown with a M-16, not a H&K, and the Roman, while wearing a cape, has a common legionaire's helm with cheekpads and *two* shortswords. Weird scabbard positions, too. Anybody know anyone besides Alan Gutierrez, Don Maitz, and Darrell K. Sweet who actually seem to take the time to research a cover? Darrell, especially, seems to at least read the book through before painting a cover. Kevin J. Belles UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!kevinb ARPA: crash!kevinb@{nosc, ucsd} INET: kevinb@crash.CTS.COM BIX: kevinb ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 05:38:22 GMT From: seismo!mnetor!alberta!jiml@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Laycock) Subject: Christopher Stasheff' "Warlock series" I recently purchased Christopher Stasheff's "Warlock series" on a whim. What I'd like to know is the order in which they might best be read. _The Warlock in Spite of Himself_ was the first written (1969), but it now appears to be the 2nd in the series. The "prequel", _Escape Velocity_ is at the front of the list of 7 books. Should I read first "the very beginning of the story of Gramarye" (EV) or the book that was originally intended to launch the series? Thanks, Jim Laycock Philosophy grad University of Alberta decvax!bellcore!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxn!ihnp4!alberta!cavell!jiml alberta!Jim_Laycock@UQV-MTS ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 17:42:06 GMT From: quirk@europa.unm.edu Subject: Re: Christopher Stasheff' "Warlock series" jiml@cavell.UUCP (Jim Laycock) writes: >I recently purchased Christopher Stasheff's "Warlock series" on a >whim. What I'd like to know is the order in which they might best >be read. _The Warlock in Spite of Himself_ was the first written >(1969), but it now appears to be the 2nd in the series. The >"prequel", _Escape Velocity_ is at the front of the list of 7 >books. Should I read first "the very beginning of the story of >Gramarye" (EV) or the book that was originally intended to launch >the series? No problem. I've lent my copies out to friends and provided the following sequence: The Warlock In Spite Of Himself King Kobold (Revived) The Warlock Unlocked or Escape Velocity (Order doesn't really matter) The Warlock Enraged The Warlock Wandering (Best book of the series--My opinion) The Warlock Is Missing Note: The last two books take place at the same time. However, _Wandering_ seems to fit in as the earlier one. (Minor Spoillers) What do you all think of Gwen's new-found power (Able to generate a force field from sheer force of will--WHEW!!)? What do you think of the Kids? Seems to me that Rod and Fess are getting out-gunned by their own family. BTW, does anybody have the *original* King Kobold? What did you think? Is the 'new' version beter? Long lives, etc. T. Kogoma quirk@europa.unm.edu {gatech:ucbvax:unm-la}!hc!hi!unmvax!quirk@europa ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 16:20:15 GMT From: markc@hpcvlo.hp.com (Mark F. Cook) Subject: Re: robot names for computer From: D-ROGERS@edwards-2060.arpa >I didn't see any mention to the robot "brain" that successively >runs the subject's spacecraft and his mechanical horse in the >_Warlock_ In_Spite_Of_Himself_ series by Christofer Stasheff. He >called it "FESS" which i believe was an acronym. Of course, maybe >you don't want to name a computer after a neurotic robot which >tripped its circuit breaker every time it got a problem that was >really tough to handle. The robot ("Fess") in _Warlock_In_Spite_Of_Himself_ derives his name from an attempt to phonetically reproduce the acronym for that type of robot as a name. That kind of robot is referred to as an FCC or "Faithful Cybernetic Companion". Mark F. Cook USMail: Software Support Hewlett-Packard - Portable Computer Div. 1000 NE Circle Blvd. Corvallis, OR 97330 ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 07:37:07 GMT From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: robot names for computer markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM (Mark F. Cook) writes: > The robot ("Fess") in _Warlock_In_Spite_Of_Himself_ derives his >name from an attempt to phonetically reproduce the acronym for that >type of robot as a name. That kind of robot is referred to as an >FCC or "Faithful Cybernetic Companion". Having had the job of assuring that certain equipment pass FCC regulations before we were allowed to ship it, I can guarantee that ``Fess'' is NOT how a lot of people, including me, pronounce FCC. Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura utzoo!hoptoad!laura sun!hoptoad!laura ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 87 04:20:40 GMT From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell) Subject: Re: Christopher Stasheff' "Warlock series" jiml@cavell.UUCP (Jim Laycock) writes: >I recently purchased Christopher Stasheff's "Warlock series" on a >whim. What I'd like to know is the order in which they might best >be read. I read the books in the order in which they were published, and I feel they work very well that way. I think that if you read Escape Velocity first, you will lose some of the irony that turns up at the end of the book. Another reason to read them in publishing order is that I found that (in my opinion, at least) that the quality of the stories went downhill from the first. Chris Russell Computer Aided Design Lab University of Maryland Arpa: russell@king.ee.umd.edu UUCP: ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell Jnet: russell@umcincom Fone: (301)454-8886 ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 16:33:28 GMT From: towers@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Stephen Towers) Subject: Re: Christopher Stasheff' "Warlock series" jiml@cavell.UUCP (Jim Laycock) writes: >_The Warlock in Spite of Himself_ was the first written (1969), but >it now appears to be the 2nd in the series. The "prequel", _Escape >Velocity_ is at the front of the list of 7 books. Should I read >first "the very beginning of the story of Gramarye" (EV) or the >book that was originally intended to launch the series? There are a few mild spoilers in _Escape Velocity_, but I don't really think this would ruin your enjoyment. I think I only noticed them because I read the first three books before _Escape Velocity_ had come out. However, what may *really* confuse you is if you have _King Kobold Revised_ as opposed to _King Kobold_. The only similarity between the two is the basic plot outline, and the next book in the series _The Warlock Unlocked_ follows on from the original, i.e. it has references to events that did not happen in exactly the way described. Hope this helps. Tony Towers Department of Computer Science Reading University. JANET : towers@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 17:58:04 GMT From: brengle@hpcltjb.hp.com (Tim Brengle) Subject: Re: Re: Christopher Stasheff' "Warlock series" >BTW, does anybody have the *original* King Kobold? What did you >think? Is the 'new' version beter [sic]? I bought a British paperback some years ago. I remember reading it and thinking that I understood that he needed to rewrite it. Hmmm... Now that I have both versions, it might be instructive to read them both again for comparison. Tim Brengle ...!hplabs!brengle brengle@hplabs.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 87 17:50:00 GMT From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu Subject: Tiptree suicide not surprising brothers@who.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) writes: >-- just read today in the Times -- James Tiptree Jr. (Alice >Sheldon[?]) killed her husband and herself... Just kinda blew me >away -- from her work, I wouldn't expect anything like that at all, >under any circumstances. Tiptree/Sheldon is one of my favorite writers, and I was very unhappy to learn that she killed herself, but I can't say I'm surprised. She is very candid about her pessimistic world view in interviews; she feels that the earth is overpopulated, and people are generally too screwed up to handle their problems, and the future looks bleak. And this is from a mature, experienced, intelligent woman who is living a quiet life with her husband. If you are familiar with Tiptree's (earlier) work, I doubt if you'd be surprised either. As a whole, it's one of the darkest oeuvres in what is normally classified as science fiction. In story after story, Tiptree tells of human failings and bigotry, the futility of any kind of solution to global problems, and the pain of human (or quasi-human) relationships. For example, "The Women that Men don't See" is the ultimate Feminist separatist fantasy: women are so sick of their mistreatment by men that they would risk running off with mysterious aliens. Similar themes are developed within the framework of space opera in the classic "Houston Houston do you read?" "The Girl who was Plugged In" is a cold and negative examination of the modern obsession with physical appearance. The black humor of "The Night-blooming Sauran" hides similar themes and feminist concerns. "The Screwfly Solution" postulates an almost mundane, and hence all the more terrifying, way to end the world. "A Momentary Taste of Being" laughs at the insignificance of human achievement and human problems; it plays with the same imagery as Vonnegut's "The Big Space F*ck" but with much more finesse. I, too, am very sad to see Tiptree leave us. But I didn't find it unexpected. Bill Hsu ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 14:25:59 GMT From: fla7@sphinx.uchicago.edu (William Flachsbart) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction holly@dartvax.UUCP (Ian Cabell) writes: >I, too, read The Hobbit and the LotR, but, unlike many, it seems, I >found them very difficult to read. I fell into the pattern of >reading several pages and then putting the book down for a month. >Perhaps I was too young, or perhaps I just found discovering a >civilization too much and would have preferrred just reading a >story. Did anyone else feel that way? Yes! Only I _still_ find the Lord of the Rings impossible going. It must be me, since everyone else and their brother seems to love these monstrosities. I am not sure why I find them so difficult to read, but they seem to be so darned booooring. I read through the first one (The Fellowship of the Ring) and began the second one and just couldn't make it anymore. I have tried to finish these several times, but just couldn't manage to wade through them. I thought the Silmarillion was a much better book, but that may have been because I read it immediately after finishing both volumes of the Gulag Archipelago, after which a chemistry textbook would have been interesting. William Flachsbart ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!fla7 ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 87 21:49:13 GMT From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!tom@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Deadly litter? On the other hand, THE DREAM MILLENNIUM by James White is quite clever, his SECTOR GENERAL books are good SF mysteries in the Asimovian tradition, and his short story TABLEAU is, I think, the most moving piece of short science fiction ever written. THE WATCH BELOW isn't intended as a manual for survivalists. Rather, it's an attempt to portray, quite effectively I think, societal development in microcosm. As for chance encounters with extraterrestrials in open space, I say all bets are off about probability as soon as you allow a faster-than- light drive, anyway. Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer Member, SFWA C/O Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 23:36:23 GMT From: matoh@prefix.liu.se (peter fritz) Subject: Re: Deadly litter? Correct me if I'm wrong, but would not most interplanetary space flight stay within the same "disc" as the planets reside in? Perhaps even in great "convoys" as the planets are near each other, to get the best payload/fuel ratio? (Unless we invent non-newtonian propulsion, of course. :-) ) If that's the case, it's not hard to see that littering would be concentrated to volumes of heavy intraplanetary space flight. But then, of course, the rings of the great planets are quite "littered", and, as we have seen, don't seem to be that dangerous to fly through... Mats Ohrman matoh@majestix.liu.se ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 17:12:39 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Deadly litter? > Correct me if I'm wrong, but would not most interplanetary space > flight stay within the same "disc" as the planets reside in? > Perhaps even in great "convoys" as the planets are near each > other, to get the best payload/fuel ratio? (Unless we invent > non-newtonian propulsion, of course. :-) ) > If that's the case, it's not hard to see that littering would > be concentrated to volumes of heavy intraplanetary space flight. > But then, of course, the rings of the great planets are quite > "littered", and, as we have seen, don't seem to be that dangerous > to fly through... Well, you COULD waste reaction mass by boosting out of the ecliptic, but why? White's characters, in disscussing the problem, mention that most collisions were just little bits of crud that didn't matter, but every once in a while, the stuff would contain ice or metal, and thereby have enough mass to do some damage to a ship when it hit. The major catastrophe involved lead shielding blocks, which are pretty darn dense, and would tend to posses a fair amount of energy, realeased in any collision. The trash was also mentioned as travelling in "swarms", much as meteors do, in the plane of the ecliptic (usually), and in orbits that intersected major flight routes of ships moving insystem. The space involved is thus more of a thick disc than a sphere, and if you get ENOUGH trash in it, of the right type, it will cause problems. It's like driving along throwing caltrops out of your car on an autobahn that is 30 lanes wide- usually, they will be missed, but one hit, and a vehicles is wrecked- so why toss the stuff out? As far as the rings, we just didn't encounter any large chunks- just dust. I imagine the probe(s) are a bit battered now- that showroom shine is gone 8-) Eric ------------------------------ Date: 13-May-1987 1529 From: roberts%utrtsc.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (Utrecht, Netherlands) Subject: SF-Lovers T-shirt Some months ago, I read in SFL that someone was making SFL T-shirts available. I recently asked Saul if he knew if any were still available and he said he thought they were all gone. I would like to know, if anyone can help, Who arranged the T-Shirts? Are there (by some unlikely chance) any available anywhere? Would there be any interest amongst European readers to have some new ones made? Nigel Roberts ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 8 Jun 87 1002-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #276 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jun 87 1002-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #276 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 276 Today's Topics: Books - Title Request & A Request Answer & The Quiet Earth & Best Fantasy (3 msgs) & Codex Seraphinianus & Upcoming Books (4 msgs) & Fictional Computers (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 May 87 15:08:53 GMT From: jo13#@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeffery Thomas Oesterle) Subject: Author,Title??? Does anybody know the title and/or author of this book: Its main character is of a race of 'people' in the far future who have evolved into wolf-like humanoids. Its a fairly primitive culture, and also fairly violent. The main character has a small (2' tall) friend who is silver and (I think) is called Sheen. He is evil, and tries to get the main character to do evil deeds. I don't remember much more about the book. I read it a few years ago and would love to put my hands on it again. Any help is appreciated. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 23:23:53 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: Book Author/Title Request >These people have a mind control capability and frequently indulge >in mental combat among themselves for control of others. They are >ranked in society by the number of people they control with 80 >being the highest permitted. The Mind Traders, by J. Hunter Holly. Dani Zweig ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 87 21:29:00 GMT From: render@b.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: The Quiet Earth I recently saw the movie "The Quiet Earth" on cable and thought it was pretty good. I'm interested in reading the book/story it was based on. I *think* that the author's name is something like "Craig Harrison" but I didn't get a chance to look at the credits closely. I couldn't find anything with the given title in Books in Print, so I am stuck for places to look. Does anyone know if it is in print, and where I might find it? Thanks. Hal Render University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ARPA: render@b.cs.uiuc.edu CSNET: render@uiuc.csnet USENET:{seismo,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!render ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 87 02:10:14 GMT From: katinsky@swatsun (Matt Katinsky) Subject: Re: Book request... From: Natalie Prowse > I am interested in a list of what people would deem the *BEST* > fantasy stories to read. These books are sometimes hard to find, but the few people I have met who have heard of them, rave about them as much as I. They represent very different styles of fantasy writing. 1) _The_Worm_Ouroborus_ (sp?) by E.R. Eddison. Filled with the moral and social values that made social Darwinism the hit it is today, and a shining example of creating a realistic image of a world. Epic quest, classical references, heroic ideals, and a vocabulary that only an Englishman would possess. If you hate dictionaries, you will probably detest his Zimiamvian trilogy: _Mistress_of_Mistresses_, _A_Fish Dinner_in_Memison_, and _The_Mezentian_Gate_. Very similar in style, but much more heavily involved with thought, philosophy, and fantasy than a heroic ballad. These are all out of print, but lots of copies are floating around wherever quality used books are cherished. 2) _Dragonworld_ by Byron Preiss and another author who name eludes my memory at the moment. What I most recall of this book are the hundreds of beautiful Joseph Zucker illustrations! These illustrations turned a wonderful and potentially harmless story into a feast. If anyone knows of any other works by Zucker, PLEASE send me references in the mail. 3) _The_Princess_Bride_ by William Goldman. One of the greatest comedy pieces ever set on a swashbuckling stage! It is also the best book to read out loud to a group. You will never forgive yourself if you miss the sword fight above the Cliffs of Insanity. If you don't find it under Goldman, try S. Morgenstern, the real author. Goldman was merely a conscientious editor :) 4) There are plenty of Knights of the Round Table stories. Aside from the classical versions and _The_Mists_of_Avalon_ (a must read for serious students of the genre), I came across a book called _Parsival_ by Richard Monaco. It is an intense character study of a innocent boy thrown into an unglamourized version of 5th century feudal England. Beautifully done. If you come across anything rare or out of print, I'd love to hear about it. Kat ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 16:49:20 GMT From: quirk@europa.unm.edu Subject: Re: Book request... From: Natalie Prowse >I am interested in a list of what people would deem the *BEST* >fantasy stories to read... Some offbeat Fantasy that I've enjoyed: The Dragon and the George (Gordon R. Dickson, I think) Her Majesty's Wizzard Christofer Stasheff. Both books deal with the adventures of a 'normal' human (From the 'real' universe, whatever that may be) who find themselves catapulted into fantasy worlds. T. Kogoma quirk@europa.unm.edu {gatech:ucbvax:unm-la}!hc!hi!unmvax!quirk@europa ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 05:13:29 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Book request... nat%drao.nrc.cdn@UBC.CSNET writes: >I am interested in a list of what people would deem the *BEST* >fantasy stories to read. As an example, I have read The Lord of the >Rings and The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, some >years ago, and I thought they were great. More recently, I read >'The Sword of Shannara', (a gift) the first book only, and I >thought it STUNK!. Is there anything Don't give up on Terry Brooks yet. I have a habit of not consigning authors to the trash bin because of earlier works, so after reading (and hating) the Shannara series, I read MAGIC KINGDOM FOR SALE: SOLD!. ***IT WAS FANTASTIC!!!*** And it is NOTHING like LORD OF THE RINGS. Brandon S. Allbery Tridelta Industries 7350 Corporate Blvd. Mentor, OH 44060 +01 216 255 1080 {decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Wed 3 Jun 87 15:02:36-PDT From: Aline Norris Subject: Codex Seraphinianus Reviews According to an online book review database, the CS was reviewed in several places, although I cannot vouch for the quality of the reviews. 1) Esquire Magazine, V 102 p260, Nov. 1984 2) NYT Book Review, V 89 p20, Feb. 12, 1984 (I think this was already mentioned as being a short blurb, not a real review.) 3) Los Angeles Times Book Review, p4, Dec. 18, 1983 4) Choice, V21 p696, Jan. 1984 5) Atlantic Monthly, V 253 p105, Feb. 1984 6) Publishers Weekly, V224 p62, Oct. 28, 1983. Hope this helps! Aline Baeck SRI, Int'l NORRIS@STRIPE.SRI.COM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 87 20:42:44 PDT From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Other future books Other things from Publisher's weekly: Legacy of Heriot (Niven, Pournelle and Barnes) ships July 1 from Simon & Schuster in hardback. To Sail Beyond the Sunset: The Life and Loves of Maureen Johnson by Robert A. Heinlein ships July 7 from Ace/Putnam in hardback [and PW pans it royally, but that isn't unusual for SF). July 7 is Heinlein's 80th birthday. The story is the (raunchy) memoirs of Lazarus Long's mother. Wyrms by Orson Scott Card ships July 22 from Arbor House in hardback. No, it isn't the sequel to Ender's Game. This is a Fantasy. chuq ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 87 20:39:18 PDT From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Bantam fall line Here is the list of books being published by Bantam this fall: HardbackK Chernobyl: A Novel by Frederik Pohl The Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted by Harry Harrison The Universe, an anthology edited by Byron Preiss Great Sky River by Greg Benford Paperbacks: Blood of the Tiger by Rose Estes Wildcards III: Jokers Wild edited by George R. R. Martin After long Silence by Sheri S. Tepper The Shore of Women by Pamela Sargent Dover Beach by Richard Bowker Winter in Eden by Harry Harrison The Uplift War by David Brin chuq ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 19:58:41 GMT From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) Subject: Re: Bantam fall line From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) >> Here is the list of books being published by Bantam this fall: >> Paperbacks: >> Blood of the Tiger by Rose Estes >> Wildcards III: Jokers Wild edited by George R. R. Martin >> After long Silence by Sheri S. Tepper >> The Shore of Women by Pamela Sargent >> Dover Beach by Richard Bowker >> Winter in Eden by Harry Harrison >> The Uplift War by David Brin What!? Where's DOC SAVAGE OMNIBUS #4? I just picked up #3 the other day, and it claims an October '87 release for #4. Is it (I hope) actually in Bantam's *summer* releases? Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 06:50:43 GMT From: seismo!mnetor!alberta!jiml@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Laycock) Subject: Upcoming books Does anyone know when the following books will be made available in soft cover? 1. Piers Anthony's _Wielding a Red Sword_ (4th in the Incarnations of Immortality series) 2. Isaac Asimov's _Foundation and Earth_ (5th in the Foundation series) 3. Roger Zelazny's _Blood of Amber_ (?) (2nd in the 2nd Chronicles of Amber series) I've seen the first two in hard cover (both almost a year ago), but it would seem that Zelazny has other projects in mind and has put off continuing his fabulous series. Was anyone else as disappointed in _Trumps of Doom_ as I? It looked as if he had written it in the space of one afternoon; not much substance there. I hope he does better in the remainder of the series. Has Anthony started writing the 5th novel in the I of I series? What will it be called? Let's see, he's covered Death, Chronos, Fate, and Mars so far. Who's left? Nature? What about God and Satan? Does he have books planned for these folks as well? What about the lesser minions? Jim Laycock Philosophy grad University of Alberta alberta!Jim_Laycock@UQV-MTS decvax!bellcore!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxn!ihnp4!alberta!cavell!jiml ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1987 15:10 PDT From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Fictional Computers Cc: (Rich McGee), (Mike Pounds), Currently I have: The Black Cloud by Fred Hoyle The Man Responsible by Stephen Robinett Cybernia by Lou Cameron The HeeChee Series by poul Anderson(?) The Shockwave Rider by John Brunner The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein non-SF?? The Human Factor by Simon Quinn - based on a film- an eye for an eye plot The Billion Dollar Brain by Len Deighton (Spies) Elementary Pascal/Basic by Henry Ledgard and Andrew Singer (S. Holmes as a progr From Baker St to Binary by Ledgard, McQuaid and Singer (as above) Do you know of any others? What do you think of them. Thanx in advance. I will summarise replies and distribute them. Dick Botting Comp Sci Cal State 5500 State University Pkwy San Bernardino, CA 92407 paaaaar@calstate.bitnet PAAAAAR@CCS.CSUSCC.EDU PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 19:43:43 GMT From: rochester!ur-cvsvax!marcus@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Levin) Subject: Re: Fictional Computers From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu > Can you Help me? - I need a list of books that are (1) fictional > and (2) have a vaguely realistic computer in them. This for a > reading list for a class I teach (Computers and Society). > Currently I have: This might not be realistic, but then again its SF it may be eventually, but; "I have no mouth, and I must scream" -- a short story but excellent. All other stories of similiar theme pale. There was also a great short story about a computer that wanted to live, and after travelling to the north and south poles of Earth it did. I am sorry but I cannot remember the name or author. On the subject however, are the novels by Jack Vance (I think) TITAN about the computer controlled world of GAIA. I cannot remember the other names marcus @ ur-cvsvax ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 15:39:16 GMT From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok) Subject: Re: Fictional Computers From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >Can you Help me? - I need a list of books that are (1) fictional >and (2) have a vaguely realistic computer in them. This for a >reading list for a class I teach (Computers and Society). > >Do you know of any others? What do you think of them. How about HAL-9000 and his earthbound counterpart SAL? Perfect example. My Dad's office even has a computer named HAL (and it *is* an IBM mainframe)! Others (though not as "realistic"): The computer in _The Integral Trees_ (can't remember its name); Multivac, in Asimov's _Winds of Change_. Also, any robot you care to think of (that thinks like a robot). Alex Granok hao!udenva!agranok ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 87 21:37:01 GMT From: seismo!hadron!inco!mack@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Mack) Subject: Re: Fictional Computers From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu > Can you Help me? - I need a list of books that are (1) fictional > and (2) have a vaguely realistic computer in them. _When Harley Was One_ by David Gerrold (Computer achieves consciousness) Many of James P. Hogan's books are computer-oriented or feature computers. (I seem to remember an author bio stating that Hogan used to sell computers for DEC.) Heinlein's Lazarus Long stories frequently use conscious computers. (Time Enough for Love, Number of the Beast, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls) Possibly John Brunner's _Stand on Zanzibar_? Don't remember. Actually, it's difficult to think of any recent hard SF that doesn't at least pay lip service to the impact of computers on society. Dave Mack McDonnell Douglas-Inco, Inc. 8201 Greensboro Drive McLean, VA 22102 (703)883-3911 ...!seismo!sundc!hadron!inco!mack ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 87 03:34:47 GMT From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!todd@RUTGERS.EDU (Todd Ellner) Subject: Re: Fictional Computers marcus@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Mark Levin) writes: >There was also a great short story about a computer that wanted to >live, and after travelling to the north and south poles of Earth it >did. I am sorry but I cannot remember the name or author. I'm not sure of the title, but a story along those lines is in the Zelazny collection _The Last Defender of Camelot_, either that or Spinrad's _No Direction Home_ (Hard to tell, I just lent both books to a friend). Todd Ellner tektronix!reed!todd ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 10 Jun 87 0935-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #277 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jun 87 0935-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #277 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 10 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 277 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Asimov (2 msgs) & Bester & Chandler & Eddings (2 msgs) & Foster & McCrumb & Piserchia (2 msgs) & Wheatley & Book Banning (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 9 Jun 87 09:16:22-PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency Douglas Adams has gone certifiably Macintosh happy. His latest book was written on a Mac, includes a picture of the author done on a Mac, and Macs figure prominently in the story. (At least so far. I'm only up to page 62.) What's it about? Well, if you believe the dust jacket, "Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency is a ghost-horror-detective-time travel-romantic comedy epic. Dirk Gently is a private detective who is more interested in telekinesis, quantum mechanics and lunch than fiddling around with fingerprint powder, so his investigations tend to produce startling and unexpected results. A simple search for a missing cat uncovers a bewildered ghost, a secret time-traveler, and the devastating secret that lies behind the whole human history and threatens to bring it to a premature end. Sadly, the cat dies." *** Possible Spoiler Ahead *** Granting that it's unwise to review a book after reading the first 25%, let me say that none of the events described above have yet taken place. In fact, so far the title character has yet to appear on-screen. On the other hand, what HAS happened is somewhat interesting if rather more convoluted than my experience with The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy might have led me to expect. BTW, I have a feeling that the "devestating secret" might just have been telegraphed within the first few pages. *** End Spoiler *** ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 87 17:48:31 GMT From: moss!hropus!prc@RUTGERS.EDU (pete clark) Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's Subject: Mega-ology to the three people who responded to my erroneous Asimov posting: 1)thanks for the info on End of Eternity and Rest of the Robots...I'll have to pick them up 2)I own,but have not read Lucky Starr...I am reading his two ..Early Years books first. 3)Foundation and Earth was the book whose title I couldn't remember..remember 4)nobody caught my biggest mistake...A Pebble.. and The Stars.. should be switched and if you haven't read these yet find time, if you can find the books. p. clark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 87 13:25:29 MEZ From: Carsten Zimmer Subject: Asimov In Germany I have heard about a book named 'Prelude to Foundation' by I. Asimov. Can anyone give me more information about this novel, the date of publishing and so on? Carsten Zimmer OR776 @ DBNUOR1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 87 10:40:47 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey Subject: Alfred Bester & Green Lantern Since both these topics have come up lately, I figured I might as well mention, for those who haven't heard, that Alfred Bester is the man who wrote Hal Jordan's GL oath (In brightest day, in darkest night...). (A number of SF writers also wrote for the comics; Bester isn't unique.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 87 10:15:09 EDT From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa To: BABOWICZ%TAMAGEN.bitnet@braggvax.arpa Subject: A. Bertram Chandler As a long-time fan of Chandler's stories, I was very happy to see the listing of stories. It included two non-Grimes books that I had never heard of. One non-Grimes book that is set in the Rim Worlds/Federation Universe is titled "The Rim of Space". It concerns an Epsilon-class tramp, Epsilon Sextans (aka 'Sexy Eppie') and her crew of cast-offs. Some Grimes books I don't recall on your list: The Road to the Rim The Hard Way Up Spartan Planet Contraband from Otherspace The last one I bought was set on the Spartan Planet, and dealt with some sort of "Amazon" rebellion; title, anyone? "Road" and "Way Up" are particularly enjoyable, as they deal with Grimes' early career in the Federation Survey Service. The last two, I class as good ol' thud & blunder Space Opera. (A good read, tho.) If you haven't read these, I hope you enjoy them. Regards, & see you around Liberty Hall, Dave Wegener 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 87 13:18:17 GMT From: rabbit1!dml@RUTGERS.EDU (David Langdon) Subject: Re: Belgariad th@tcom.stc.co.uk (Tony Hutchinson) says: > Well, I've just finished reading the Belgariad. It is possibly > one of the most enjoyable books I've read in a long time. Alright, > most of the plot was sign posted in the first book and the style > of writing was hardly classic, but I loved it! > > And now the big question...I've heard rumours on this group about > a sequel. Are they true ? And if so, when can we expect it ? The next series starts with "Guardians of the West" which is out in hardback. Can't give you any details (I don't buy hardbacks if I can help it - I unfortunately wait for paperbacks) but it has been discussed extensively in this group already. David Langdon Rabbit Software Corp. 7 Great Valley Parkway East Malvern PA 19355 (215) 647-0440 ...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml ...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 87 21:37:41 GMT From: hplabs!csun!polyslo!jchikin@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Chikin) Subject: Re: Belgariad th@tcom.stc.co.uk (Tony Hutchinson) writes: >Well, I've just finished reading the Belgariad. It is possibly one >of the most enjoyable books I've read in a long time. Alright, most >of the plot was sign posted in the first book and the style of >writing was hardly classic, but I loved it! > >And now the big question...I've heard rumours on this group about a >sequel. Are they true ? And if so, when can we expect it ? Yeah, I totally agree with you. The Belgariad is not very intricate nor written very well; yet, there is a very enjoyable quality to it. I believe it to be fairly good characterization of Garion and CeNedra. You are also correct about the rumor of a sequel. Eddings has just released the first of another trilogy (who knows maybe even a double trilogy). It's called "Guardians of the West". It won't be available in paperback for at least a year. The hardback has been available since April. I purchased the book and I completed it in a day (about 455 pages). It's a fairly good book and ties together all the characters in the previous five books. The sequel has Errand as the principal character with trememdous powers. Anyway, I liked the book and advise purchasing the hardback edition if you can't wait (like me). Hope I helped Tony. Joe Chikin Cal Poly SLO, CSc Dept San Luis Obispo, Ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 87 09:08:53 EDT From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (John White) Subject: Spellsinger Series First: Spellsinger 1 The Hour of the Gate 2 The Day of the Dissonance 3 The Moment of the Magician 4 The Paths of the Perambulator 5 The Time of the Transference 6 Second: As I heard it (on some panel at a con from ADF himself), the first two books of the series (Spellsinger and The Hour of the Gate) were originally one book. The publisher cut it into two, and I believe that they didn't even tell anyone on the cover of the first edition that it was the first of two. ADF wasn't happy about the split, but it wasn't up to him. John L White WHITE@DREXELVM ------------------------------ Date: Tue 9 Jun 87 15:53:41-PDT From: Alan R. Katz Subject: Bimbos of the Death Sun This is for real: Bimbos of the Death Sun by Sharyn McCrumb a book review by Alan R. Katz Believe it or not, I actually only got this book because of the title! But, it's really very good. The story is a murder mystery which takes place at your typical science fiction convention. One of the main characters is a engineering professor who has written his first (hard) science fiction book (which the publisher went and named Bimbos of the Death Sun). The world's greatest author of Science Fantasy (who is a truly unlikable person) is found murdered in his hotel room during the con by his agent (whose first thought is "I wonder if I get two more wishes?"). The question then becomes: Who hated him enough to kill him? (answer: practically anyone who knew him). The mystery is eventually solved by the engineering professor in the ultimate Dungeons and Dragons role playing game (well, that's what the back cover says). If you have ever attended a con (and who hasn't?) you will recognize the characters, most are stereotypes of your typical sf-con addict and are very funny. The costume contest, the filk singing, the reactions of the ordinary hotel guests are all there. The book is published by TSR Inc. (who, I believe, do the D & D stuff). A very funny book. [****] (out of 5) ------------------------------ Date: 09 Jun 87 21:41:26 EDT From: WCUTECB Subject: Sheen (Book Request) Re: Hi there... From: jo13#@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeffery Thomas Oesterle) >Its main character is of a race of 'people' in the far future who >have evolved into wolf-like humanoids. Its a fairly primitive >culture, and also fairly violent. The main character has a small >(2' tall) friend who is silver and (I think) is called Sheen. He >is evil, and tries to get the main character to do evil deeds. I >don't remember much more about the book. I read it a few years ago >and would love to put my hands on it again. Any help is >appreciated. The name of this classic (he said knowingly) is A Billion Days of Earth by Dorothy Pierzak (sp?) This is from a bad childhood memory so I don't remember all that much, and the author's name is a poorly encoded acoustic symbol in my neural pathways. It sounds something like "Pierzak" or something that goes into a regulation Space Army Disintegrator ("Hey Sarge, throw me a new Pierzak crystal."). Hope this helps. Also, let me know what you think about the story. Bruce W. Onder WCUTECB@IUP ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 04:54:52 GMT From: ames!aurora!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Sheen (Book Request) Re: Hi there... WCUTECB@IUP.BITNET writes: >The name of this classic (he said knowingly) is > >A Billion Days of Earth by Dorothy Pierzak (sp?) That should be Doris Piserchia. Fine book, fine writer. Kayembee ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 01:06:48 GMT From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper) Subject: Dennis Wheatley Black Magic novels From John Scott at Dartmouth (in response to my comments on the films THE DEVIL RIDES OUT (a.k.a THE DEVIL'S BRIDE) and TO THE DEVIL A DAUGHTER: > You mention two movies based on novels by Dennis Wheatly. I went > to our local bookstore and tried to look them up in the large > refference tomes, to no avail. I was wondering if you could > provide me with titles, dates, etc. His work sounds interesting, > and I would like to read some, since I haven't seen either of the > two films at our video store. Wheatley is a popular British novelist specializing in adventure stories. After writing many novels, he took the characters of one and put them in THE DEVIL RIDES OUT in which they run afoul of the powers of black magic. That was the first of several black magic novel, all well researched. Wheatley also has written non-fiction books based on his researches into witchcraft and black magic. His black magic novels include: 1935 The Devil Rides Out 1941 Strange Conflict 1948 The Haunting of Toby Jugg 1953 To the Devil a Daughter 1956 The Ka of Gifford Hillary 1960 The Satanist 1964 They Used Dark Forces 1970 Gateway to Hell 1973 The Irish Witch There may be others that I do not know about, though I suspect not. I the late 60's Bantam Books reprinted some in this country and in early '70s Ballantine Books also reprinted some. Finding them in this country could be a bit of a problem. As for video versions of the two films, I would love to get my hands on a complete DEVIL'S BRIDE myself. TO THE DEVIL A DAUGHTER is available on videotape, though the box makes it look like horrible trash. I believe it was Natassia Kinski's first film and the box takes advantage of that. An interesting fact is that the final scenes of TO THE DEVIL A DAUGHTER was filmed on what used to be the estate of Francis Dashwood. I found that fairly interesting and perhaps even appropriate. There is a real trivia question for you! Who out there can tell me who Francis Dashwood was? Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 17:08 EST From: blackje%sungod.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa Subject: More on the Banned Books Marco@ncsc.arpa gave us the list of books banned in Bay County, FL. (by those who were the BORED of Education?). I cannot help but observe with some amusement that a surprising number of the books on the banned book list were REQUIRED READING when I was in high school in rural Alabama in the late 60's. Required reading at Walker County High (circa 1968): The Red Badge of Courage A Farewell to Arms Oedipus Rex Animal Farm The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin Fahrenheit 451 Alas, Babylon The Prince and the Pauper Adventures in English Literature (wasn't this the TEXTBOOK?) Lord of the Flies The Call of the Wild Great Expectations The Canterbury Tales Brave New World Oedipus the King King Lear Hamlet The Old Man and the Sea The Oedipus Plays of Sophocles And there were others, which no doubt would have made the list. Just who are Hall and Collins? Sounds like tar and feathers are in order. Emmett BlackJE@GE-CRD.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 16:55:22 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: The last on the Book Ban Just thought everyone would like to know. According to the June 5 Publisher's Weekly, the Superintendent of Bay County, Florida's School District has been overruled by the Board of Education and the ban has been lifted. A few interesting side comments. The superintendent did this without the support of the school board, and AFTER an opinion by the district attorney that it was against board policy. Why did he do it anyway? Because (to quote the district public affair officer) he is a "very religious, intellectually honest and sincerely convinced that the word 'goddamn' should not be in any book or taught to any child". [editorial note: last I looked, no school in the country taught a student the proper usage of the word Goddamn. But, funny enough, they always seem to learn it anyway....] Finally, the class action suit by the students and teachers will continue -- the contention being that the teacher should be the final arbiter of what is taught and what isn't, and that school board interference is a restriction of freedom of the press. I wish them luck. What this DOES do, however, is get the school board involved in a legal fight that will cost them money -- over something they didn't support in the first place. Which, I'm sure, really enamors them to the superintendent. Which is probably the whole point of continuing the suit -- make him expensive enough of a problem that the board will replace him... Interesting thought.... Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 10 Jun 87 0943-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #278 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jun 87 0943-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #278 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 10 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 278 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (9 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Jun 87 05:30:28 GMT From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: ST:TNG Sexism From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM > I'm not bothered by the lack of racial balance in The New > Generation. > > But, darn, I feel males have had their shot at command in Star > Trek. We had a whole 79 episodes where males commanded in every > instance (Ensign Chekov being given the con over Lt. Uhura), with > the top upteen (at least 4) command officers being male. Was it > so unrealistic of me to hope that one of the two top officers of > TNG would be female? I had decided it was so.... > > Or is it just the rabid feminist in me that makes the cast of TNG > rub me the wrong way? Let's see. Assuming males are equally as capable as females, you should have one ship out of four that has the top two officers male. Michale Crichton quoted some bogus survey in The Andromeda Strain, that said that single men were more often correct at making life or death decisions. Assuming something like this is true, than perhaps the ratio of males to females in command positions is more like 2 to 1. In which case the odds are around 50-50 that both top positions are filled by males. However, they copped out. They shouldn't have had male-male--that's just a dup of Star Trek. They shouldn't have had male-female (male captain, female first officer)--that's a dup of The Cage. They shouldn't have had female- female--people would have claimed that they were just playing role-reversal games. However, a female pilot/male first officer might have been interesting. Hmm. This and the other feminist issues in sf-lovers makes me kind of curious-- has there been a (well-received) book or story published lately in which one (human) sex is superior to another? Just asking. david rickel decwrl!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jun 87 12:42:22 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) From: Subject: ST:TNG I posted the following article to STARTREK CSNOTICE on CSNEWS. Okay, now that we've had two postings about The New Generation, let's have some discussion on the subject. I think that despite sone fans' opinions to the contrary, TNG can be valid Star Trek. Anybody who's read THE FINAL REFLECTION, by John M. Ford, will know that excellent Star Trek can be written without use of the characters we all know and love. (Well, minimal use.) When I saw the description of the characters, I nearly fainted. However, on further thought, I realized that a modern-day Horatio Hornblower, a half-breed alien/human, and an old country doctor might have sounded just as radical when Star Trek first started. Shirley Maiewsky (sp?) argued in a recent Globe article that Star Trek was good because of its characters. Okay, folks, let's talk Pike, Boyce, and Number One. Okay, I'm done ranting and raving for the time being. Someone else take over now. ------------------------------ Date: 04 Jun 87 14:44:14 EDT From: WCUTECB Subject: ST:TNG Sexism? Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM (Lisa Wahl) writes: >I'm not bothered by the lack of racial balance in The New >Generation. > >But, darn, I feel males have had their shot at command in Star >Trek. Are we comparing the same notes here? From what I know there are no fewer than three females with positions of high authority... Lt. Tanya Yar -- Cheif of Security Lt. Deanna Troi -- Cheif of Psychology Beverly Crusher -- Cheif Medical Officer Seems to me that there's a vast improvement over either the old TV series _or_ any of the movies. If you are concerned that the captain and his 1st are still men, I share your view. I think that the series could do no wrong with a strong central _female_ character. But such is life. At least the _women_ in STTNG are _real_! Case in point: Data, a stupid name for a stupid android who will _look_ like either an Asian or American Indian. That's great, real great (:-). What's wrong with the real thing? And will we have to say "to go boldly (ahem) where no man or android has gone before"? I don't see much need for the android; the ship has enough AI to go around. Ah, well. Perhaps Data will meet the Terminator... Bruce W. Onder WCUTECB@IUP ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jun 87 11:43 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: ST:TNG At a con a few weeks ago, a friend picked me up a copy of The Next Generation Writer/Director's Guide and I thought I'd post some info from it. *SPOILER ALERT* There's a lot of interesting information in here, confirming almost all of the stuff that's been on the net to date. I won't try to reproduce much of it here, but I'll throw out a few tidbits that stick in my mind: 1) Set 78 years since "the time of Kirk and Spock." Does this mean since the series? Since the movies? Since they died? And why 78? 2) We now know what Stardates mean! " A stardate is a five-digit number followed by a decimal point and one more digit. Example: 41254.7 The first two digits of the stardate are always 41. The 4 stands for 24th century, the 1 indicates first season. The additional three leading digits will progress unevenly during the course of the season from 000 to 999. The digit following the decimal point is generally regarded as a day counter." 3) We now know what Warp's mean! At least we're told, not only that Warp 1 is the speed of light, but Warp 6, the maximum sustainable speed, is 1 light-year per hour. 4) Communicators are part of the uniform's insignia--great way to avoid losing them on landing parties. Additional info on the characters make them much more appealing to me. Captain Picard is in his 50's, a veteran commander from a 15 year mission with the USS Stargazer. The Enterprise is one of the first ship's with this "bring the wife and kids along" bit, and he's not really comfortable with the idea. While he's much attracted to Beverly Crusher, they have a stumbling block in their relationship -- her husband was killed under his command and, to some extent, blames Picard. Data (rhymes with that-a, the Guide says) is the product of an advanced intelligence and a doomed Earth colony. Said intelligence distilled the dying colonist's knowledge into this android. Data's favorite story is Pinocchio-- he wants nothing more than to be a "real boy." The blind black guy, La Forge, gets on well with Data, probably because he has a similar hang-up. He would like to have real eyes, instead of his super-special vision (microscopic, telescopic, he can function, in some ways, like a tricorder). He sometimes works the CON station (helm and navigation), so, yes, the Enterprise is driven by a blind man. Dena Troi, our half-Betazoid (sounds like a stomach remedy to me) "counselor" is somewhat telepathic. She can generally sense emotions in humans. Sounds like her ability may work on aliens, too, as convenient for the plot. The Guide says Wesley's not a nerd. But the description sure makes him sound like one. Tasha Yar (with "an unusual quality of conditioned-body beauty that would have flabbergasted males of a few centuries earlier.") had a rough childhood. Her barbaric upbringing in a doomed colony has her worshipping Order and Starfleet and most of all, her superior officers. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 87 04:05:42 GMT From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell) Subject: Re: ST:TNG In reference to Lisa Wahl's article which is too long to include here... I've been trying to figure out what it is about ST:TNG that has been bothering me. Basically, I get the feeling that there are too many "gimmicks". One character is an andriod, another is blind (with prosthetic eyes), one is half-betazoid, one is a child genius.... I guess I'm worried that they are going to try to make the characters INTO the stories instead of having the characters be PART OF the stories. One of the nice things about the original Star Trek series was that each episode was distinct and separate from the rest. They could have occured in any order (and in syndication, they usually do). I'd hate to see ST:TNG turn out to be more like Hill Street Blues than the original ST. (Not that I have ANYTHING against Hill Street Blues! I happen to like the show. I just don't think that ST:TNG should be a continuing drama like HSB). Whenever I start thinking that the show is doomed, however, I just think about how the original Star Trek must have looked. I mean, portraying an alien as having green skin and pointed ears? What 1950s martian movies were these guys watching? Chris Russell Computer Aided Design Lab University of Maryland Arpa: russell@king.ee.umd.edu UUCP: ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell Jnet: russell@umcincom Fone: (301)454-8886 ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 20:37:19 GMT From: quirk@europa.unm.edu Subject: Re: ST:TNG From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM >At a con a few weeks ago, a friend picked me up a copy of The Next >Generation Writer/Director's Guide and I thought I'd post some info >from it. > >1) Set 78 years since "the time of Kirk and Spock." Does this mean >since the series? Since the movies? Since they died? And why 78? My bet would be 78 years after they 'retired for active duty'. We all know that Kirk & co. will never actually die. ;-) >2) We now know what Stardates mean! " A stardate is a five-digit >number followed by a decimal point and one more digit. Example: >41254.7 The first two digits of the stardate are always 41. The 4 >stands for 24th century, the 1 indicates first season. The >additional three leading digits will progress unevenly during the >course of the season from 000 to 999. The digit following the >decimal point is generally regarded as a day counter." I see that thy finally decided to 'standardize' the Stardate system. Too bad they waited 20+ yeasr to do it. How will they reconcile SD 8147.3 (From ST-II I believe) with this 'new' system? What was wrong with the 'random' numbers which had to be refrenced to the ship's chronometer in order to make sense? ;-) Looks to me that they're trying to make it too rigid. Besides, We all know how the Stardate REALLY works. Today's Stardate is 8706.5 (Jun 5, 1987). ;-) >3) We now know what Warp's mean! At least we're told, not only >that Warp 1 is the speed of light, but Warp 6, the maximum >sustainable speed, is 1 light-year per hour. Again they decide to change something for the sake of changing things. It has been established that Wapr Factor (WF) 1 is the speed of light in vacuum (c). WF 2 = 8c. WF 3 = 27c. WF (n) = (n)^3 * c. And I still disagree that WF 6 is the maximum speed! In *ST-TMP* the big E went to WF 9! I don't think that 78+ yeasr of 'progress' will make the Warp Drive less powerful. >4) Communicators are part of the uniform's insignia--great way to >avoid losing them on landing parties. Finally! A good idea. Now the aliens will have to strip the characters in order to take their communication equipment away. (1/2 ;-)) >Additional info on the characters make them much more appealing to >me. Captain Picard is in his 50's, a veteran commander from a 15 >year mission with the USS Stargazer. The Enterprise is one of the >first ship's with this "bring the wife and kids along" bit, and >he's not really comfortable with the idea. While he's much >attracted to Beverly Crusher, they have a stumbling block in their >relationship--her husband was killed under his command and, to some >extent, blames Picard. I agree with Picard. I'm not too comfortable with the idea either. >Data (rhymes with that-a, the Guide says) is the product of an >advanced intelligence and a doomed Earth colony. Said intelligence >distilled the dying colonist's knowledge into this android. Data's >favorite story is Pinocchio-- he wants nothing more than to be a >"real boy." Corny. What's wrong with another Vulcan? (Maybe Saavik in her middle years.) >The blind black guy, La Forge, gets on well with Data, probably >because he has a similar hang-up. He would like to have real eyes, >instead of his super-special vision (microscopic, telescopic, he >can function, in some ways, like a tricorder). He sometimes works >the CON station (helm and navigation), so, yes, the Enterprise is >driven by a blind man. This, I think, has some possiblilties. A good writer could have some fun with this character. >Dena Troi, our half-Betazoid (sounds like a stomach remedy to me) >"counselor" is somewhat telepathic. She can generally sense >emotions in humans. Sounds like her ability may work on aliens, >too, as convenient for the plot. Combination of Vulcan and Deltan. Hmm. I'll wait for the first show to judge this one. >The Guide says Wesley's not a nerd. But the description sure makes >him sound like one. No comment. >Tasha Yar (with "an unusual quality of conditioned-body beauty that >would have flabbergasted males of a few centuries earlier.") had a >rough childhood. Her barbaric upbringing in a doomed colony has >her worshipping Order and Starfleet and most of all, her superior >officers. I'm really not too sure about this one either. It will have to wait. Long lives, etc. T. Kogoma quirk@europa.unm.edu hi!europa!quirk@hc.dspo.gov {gatech|ucbvax|seismo}!hc.dspo.gov!hi!europa!quirk ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 87 09:08:27 GMT From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates) Subject: Re: ST:TNG Sexism From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM >I'm not bothered by the lack of racial balance in The New >Generation. > >But, darn, I feel males have had their shot at command in Star >Trek. We had a whole 79 episodes where males commanded in every >instance (Ensign Chekov being given the con over Lt. Uhura), ... Although I will be the first to point out that the command structure of the Enterprise is bogus, I have a question: in what episode was Chekov given the con? I have searched my memory banks and have come up blank on that one. Robert A. West Q4071@PUCC US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place Suite A North Brunswick, NJ 08902 VOICE : (201) 821-7055 ..!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 87 21:46:44 GMT From: ellis@ultra.dec.com (David Ellis) Subject: Enterprise Command Robert A. West (Q4071@PUCC) asked: > Although I will be the first to point out that the command > structure of the Enterprise is bogus, I have a question: in what > episode was Chekov given the con? I have searched my memory banks > and have come up blank on that one. It was at the end of _Journey to Babel_, when Captain Kirk gets ready to return to sickbay after the intruder is destroyed. David Ellis Digital Equipment Corporation 305 Foster Street Littleton MA 01460 (617)486-6784 Usenet: {ucbvax,allegra,decvax}!decwrl!ultra.dec.com!ellis ARPA: ellis%ultra.dec@decwrl.dec.com ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 04:46:01 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: ST:TNG quirk@europa.unm.edu writes: >>Dena Troi, our half-Betazoid (sounds like a stomach remedy to me) >>"counselor" is somewhat telepathic. She can generally sense >>emotions in humans. Sounds like her ability may work on aliens, >>too, as convenient for the plot. > >Combination of Vulcan and Deltan. Hmm. I'll wait for the first >show to judge this one. I fail to see what's so wrong with this one. (However, if she's emotionally well adjusted, they'd better state that she received training on Vulcan.) I speak from personal experience on this topic. Brandon S. Allbery aXcess Company 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +01 216 974 9210 {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery {decvax,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 10 Jun 87 1015-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #279 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jun 87 1015-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #279 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 10 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 279 Today's Topics: Books - Tom Swift (6 msgs) & Some Requests (3 msgs) & Upcoming Books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Jun 87 23:58:16 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@RUTGERS.EDU (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Tom Swift Ted Nolan writes: >Has anybody realized that there is (maybe was) a new Tom Swift >series now? I ran across it a few years ago. As a kid, I had all >the Tom Swift Jr. books from the fifties and the sixties, and many >of the original Tom Swift books from the teens through the >thirties, so I bought a couple to see what they were doing with the >concept these days. I used to have one of the Tom Swift Jr. books back about the time it was printed (late '60s). It was part of series much like the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew. (Incidentally, I looked at Hardy Boys stuff recently and recognized none of the titles I used to have. Do they junk the old stories every so often?) I also have a copy of _Tom Swift and His Television Detector_, copyright 1933, written by Victor Appleton. (The new series book, whose title I've forgotten, was either written by Appleton or his son-- memory fails me, and the book is either lost or sealed in the attic.) There is essentially nothing in common between the two series except the name Tom Swift and the idea of writing the book around a device invented by Mr. Swift, who in the earlier series is in his early twenties. My recollection is that Tow Swift *Jr.* is in his teens, by contrast. The TSJ book was essentially in the Hardy Boys mold, with the SF elements woven into it. Those racked with nostalgia over the original Tom Swift books, however, need to have their circuits re-tuned. The writing style is, at best, florid. The politics of at least the one I have are distinctly right-wing. There's a lot of casual racism. But compared to _Dave Darrin's Second Year at Annapolis_, copyright 1911, Tom Swift is Shakespeare. Besides being nearly pure propaganda for the honor, bravery, and guts of our fighting Navy, it has a prolixity which is hard to rival. Herewith, a brief passage decribing part of a fight arranged between the protagonist and his nemesis, Pennington: "I'll wipe that grin off his face!" muttered Pennington angrily. And this very thing Pennington tried hard to do. He was quick on his own feet, and for a few seconds he followed the dodging Darrin about, raining in blows that required all of Dave's adroitness to escape. Dave's very success, however, made his opponent all the angrier. From annoyance, followed by excessive irritation, Pennington went into almost blind rage-- and the man who does that, anywhere in life, must always pay for it. Among other things, we have (a) the classmate seduced by the evil chinaman and his opium den, (b) three fights for the sake of Honor, (c) the hometown girl who is the subject of fights 2 and 3, (d) the "duty-mad" lieutenant who reports fights 2 and 3 to (e) the commandant who turns a blind eye on the whole proceedings, (f) heroic efforts to cut the academic mustard, and (g) a trip across the Atlantic involving (1) fight 1, (2) lots of naval color, (3) an attempt to strand the heros in England, and (4) TWO trips over the side by Our Hero, including an Heroic Rescue. It's all a bit much. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 05:22:11 GMT From: tyg@lll-crg.arpa (Tom Galloway) Subject: Re: Tom Swift Ah, yes, Tom Swift, Jr., who along with Tom Terrific on Captain Kangaroo, were two of my favorite childhood characters [one guess as to a large reason why!]. At any rate, Charly Wingate made an error when he wrote that the Jr. series was written by "his [Victor Appleton] son". Actually two errors; first, the authors were the same person, just a slightly different penname [a II was attached to the Appleton], and second the author was female. I don't recall her name, but her obit a few years ago mentioned that she was both names, as well as the author of several other well known series, perhaps including Nancy Drew and/or The Hardy Boys although I won't swear to the exact series at this date. And the current series of Tom Swift Jr. books is indeed insipid. They even have a terrible example of a robot tagging along. Bleah. tyg ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 19:45:24 GMT From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) Subject: Re: Tom Swift tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) writes: > At any rate, Charly Wingate made an error when he wrote that the > Jr. series was written by "his [Victor Appleton] son". Actually > two errors; first, the authors were the same person, just a > slightly different penname [a II was attached to the Appleton], > and second the author was female. I don't recall her name, but > her obit a few years ago mentioned that she was both names, as > well as the author of several other well known series, perhaps > including Nancy Drew and/or The Hardy Boys although I won't swear > to the exact series at this date. Well, I can speak with a tiny bit of authority on this, but not much, since my memory fails me on some particulars. The female mentioned above was Helen(?) Stratemeyer, daughter of the man who wrote/created the Hardy Boys books (and whose real name may have been Franklin Adams or whatever the HB author's name is/was; if not, try "Frank Stratemeyer"). Her father created the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew and a couple of other juvenile series, including Tom Swift Sr. He wrote 'em all, too, until he started making enough money to hire ghost writers; then, he just plotted them all. She took up the family business and eventually controlled it after her father's death. At some point, it became The Stratemeyer Syndicate, and its office was in my home town: Maplewood, NJ. If she's dead now, the business isn't. There were a couple of articles written about her in various national magazines, so I'm sure someone can check me on all this. The only reason I know as little as I do is that, in college, a friend of mine started out to produce a radio series (on WSHU, Seton Hall University, South Orange, NJ) based on the Hardy Boys, and I was doing the script adaptations. He had a signed contract from the Syndicate and everything. (I may still have a copy.) It fell through when he couldn't get enough actors interested in donating their time. The contract lapsed, and soon after TV picked up both the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew for series. Anyway, the Hardy Boys/Nancu Drew/Tom Swift books were done by a Small Eastern Syndicate, not by individual authors or their children. Sorry if I popped any illusions. Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 87 08:53:23 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Tom Swift mangoe@mimsy.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: > I used to have one of the Tom Swift Jr. books back about the time > it was printed (late '60s). It was part of series much like the > Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew. (Incidentally, I looked at Hardy Boys > stuff recently and recognized none of the titles I used to have. > Do they junk the old stories every so often?) I believe the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew books were revised at least once under the same titles to keep them from seeming outdated, while the Tom Swift series had to be redone more completely. Don't know about the newest incarnations. > I also have a copy of _Tom Swift and His Television Detector_, > copyright 1933, written by Victor Appleton. (The new series book, > whose title I've forgotten, was either written by Appleton or his > son-- memory fails me, and the book is either lost or sealed in > the attic.) There is essentially nothing in common between the > two series except the name Tom Swift and the idea of writing the > book around a device invented by Mr. Swift, who in the earlier > series is in his early twenties. My recollection is that Tow > Swift *Jr.* is in his teens, by contrast. The TSJ book was > essentially in the Hardy Boys mold, with the SF elements woven > into it. Actually the second series has quite a few tie-ins and parallels. Many of the newer books are actually based on the original stories or at least the original plot outlines with updated science and moralistics. > Those racked with nostalgia over the original Tom Swift books, > however, need to have their circuits re-tuned. The writing style > is, at best, florid. The politics of at least the one I have are > distinctly right-wing. There's a lot of casual racism. But of course! The books are intended as juvenile literature and are supposed to represent the common social values of the day. Given 75 years of perspective (the series ran from ~1911-1930's) most moral literature shows it's age. They are racist, sexist, jingoistic, &c. So were (are?) we. If you want to enjoy any less-than-classic literature, it's best to understand the context it was written in. This is true of whether it's juvenile literature from the early part of the century, pre-60's science fiction or todays stuff. Personally, I think the original series were better than the new. The "science" seems fresher and more real. More adventure, more villains. The bad guys/ contries change over time rather than being a monolithic cold-war pseudo-russia. The characters, while overblown and stereotyped are memorable (Mr. Damon, Koku, Eradicate...) and change/age as the series goes on. Reading both gave me an understanding of the changes in both society and science over time. Selling my collection of them along with the rest of newer series stuff I had accumulated by the end of Jr. High was a mistake that I will most likely spend an excessive amount of money to correct one of these days. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 87 04:26:41 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce From: Holloway) Subject: Re: Tom Swift Yes, the Tom Swift books, the Hardy Boys series, and Nancy Drew were all written by the same person. When I first heard this, I believed it, being a big fan of all three series when I was a kid (in the sixties - these were the Tom Swift Jr. Books) Bruce Holloway {seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 87 02:36:58 -0700 From: Alastair Milne Subject: first SF My first SF was "Tom Swift and his Polar-Ray Dynasphere". Meaning Swift, Jr., of course. I was very young, and found it rather engaging in jumping back and forth from space stations to experiment labs to flying submarines to giant planes, etc. But this particular book (I didn't know then that there were others) had a much more exotic element: a group of 25 East Indian trainees. In fact, the Swift group wound up visiting and exploring their province in India to investigate a plot -- amazing the number of plots Tom investigated. For a long time afterward I tried to find the name Vishnapur in the atlas, and was very disappointed when I couldn't. I think it was the exotic Indian parts as much as the "repellatron" spacecraft and other gadgets that I found engaging. It was in fact the first place I ever heard of the Indian goddess Kali. This was also the first place I encountered the idea of whole countries being enemies. In his first test of the dynasphere, Tom accidentally captures a "Brungarian" satellite. Brungaria is an enemy country, presumably meant to be Eastern European, though that much detail is never used. I recall thinking at the time how impossible that sounded. How could everybody in a whole country have the same inimical feeling toward something or somebody? The propaganda about Brungarians never did go down very well. If anybody's interested (which seems unlikely), the "Polar-Ray Dynasphere" bit referred to a device that would ionise an object by polarising the electric charge on it. The idea was that you could then attract it or repel it at will by adjusting that polarisation. The device was built as a sphere within a focusing arrangement to direct the ray. Hence, "polarising ray dynamism sphere." Daft, but not so much as to lose all sense of credibility. My interest would probably have waned, though, but for the fact that my mother is an avid lover of science-fiction, so there was always some around the house, and I wound up reading quite a number of sf short stories. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 87 12:43:24 GMT From: mtune!hou2g!scott@RUTGERS.EDU (Scott Berry) Subject: Author Query (..Crooked House) My brother has a question which I thought might be answered here. Please MAIL responses to me, since I don't usually read this group. Who wrote the story "And He Built a Crooked House", and where has it appeared? My brother is trying to find a copy. Thanks. (As a memory jogger, it's the one about a guy who built a house that was a tesseract.) Scott J. Berry ihnp4!hou2g!scott ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 17:06 EST From: blackje%sungod.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa Subject: Danny Dunn series Wow, does that take me back. I read all those books when I was in second grade, I think. Does anyone remember the author's name, and/or have a list of the books in the series? (do you suppose they are still in print?) Emmett BlackJE@GE-CRD.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 17:10 EST From: blackje%sungod.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa Subject: Lost Book: Title/Author Request Anyone ever heard of a book titled "Lost; a Moon" ? At least I believe that was the title. It's a book I read in childhood, and have since been unable to locate. My impression was that it was by RAH; but I've been unable to find any reference to it (particularly not in a list of RAH's works). To the best of my recollection; the story is set in orbit around Mars, where one of the moons was actually a large artificial satellite, presumably constructed by the "Martians" to stage a mass exodus. The "moon" contains a LARGE sapient computer (LARGE= "miles, and miles of clicking relays") which was holding our protagonist captive. In one part of the book, the protagonist convinced the computer that he would die if his beard reached his chest; in order to get the computer to fabricate a razor for him. Has anyone else ever read, or even HEARD of this book? Thanks; Emmett BlackJE@GE-CRD.ARPA BlackJE@CRD.GE.COM BlackJE@CSBVAX.GE.COM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 87 11:30:08 PDT From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: upcoming books.... > What!? Where's DOC SAVAGE OMNIBUS #4? I just picked up #3 the > other day, and it claims an October '87 release for #4. Is it (I > hope) actually in Bantam's *summer* releases? The list I published was not complete, just the books Bantam is leading with. I'd guess the Doc Savage is on schedule, but it is a midlist item. > Does anyone know when the following books will be made available > in soft cover? > > 1. Piers Anthony's _Wielding a Red Sword_ (4th in the > Incarnations of Immortality series Late summer/fall. > 2. Isaac Asimov's _Foundation and Earth_ (5th in the > Foundation series) I haven't heard. I'd expect it to be a Christmas book, though. > 3. Roger Zelazny's _Blood of Amber_ (?) (2nd in the 2nd > Chronicles of Amber series) I think this is a July or August book. chuq ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 15 Jun 87 0835-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #280 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Jun 87 0835-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #280 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 280 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Baum & Bester & Brin (4 msgs) & Brooks (2 msgs) & Capon & Crichton (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Jun 87 05:13:03 GMT From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Asimov's Empire > From: ted@braggvax.arpa (Ted Nolan) > There was a short story set in the Trantor/Empire/Foundation > universe which concerned the only intelligent nonhuman species > ever found. I can't remember the title, but it was collected in > _The Early Asimov_ (I think). The story explains what happened to > them and why they did not figure in any of the other story in this > universe. (Although he could still bring them back if he wanted > to). "Blind Alley", which appears in THE EARLY ASIMOV, VOLUME 2 (or VOLUME 3 if you go by the British paperbacks). VOLUME 1 also contains a story that refers to Santanni and Trantor --- "Black Friar of the Flame" --- but one really can't take that story seriously as part of the series. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 11:34 PDT From: Trigg.pa@Xerox.COM Subject: Thanks for the help in Tik Tok pix search Many thanks for all the responses I got to my query on which Oz books contain pictures of Tik Tok. As many pointed out, Tik Tok was introduced in Ozma of Oz and further adventures are found in Tik Tok in Oz. A friend was looking for a picture for the cover of her upcoming book on human-computer interaction. She ended up choosing the plate in Ozma of Oz wherein Dorothy looks deeply into the eyes of Tik Tok. Someone mentioned that Ozma of Oz happens to be in the public domain which will make the whole process much easier. It's still unclear whether Tik Tok will be the final choice (it's competing against a sketch by Miro and a solid color cover), but you might keep your eyes open for it when browsing the bookstores this Fall. Randy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 87 16:58:01 EDT From: LT Sheri Smith USN Subject: Stars My Destination (Bester) This is to the individual who is desperate for a copy of Bester's _The Stars My Destination_. Sorry I didn't jot your name down before I composed this message. *****SPOILERS AHEAD!!!!****** I picked up a copy of The Stars My Destination last week at a used book sale going on in the hallway of a neighboring office building. It is interesting, but I wouldn't sweat blood over not finding it any time soon. I had major problems with a number of scenes in the book. For example: It is made perfectly clear that all windows are of one-way glass so no one can look in and memorize the coordinates of a room, yet time and again, when our heroes need to get someplace they can SEE, they don't teleport. Sam is killed because he jumps onto a (non-functioning) anti-grav beam instead of "jaunting". At the end, when "the burning man" is in the basement of St Pat's, they have to tunnel to him from across the street instead of simply jaunting down next to him. Now really. This is a bit much. First off, why doesn't he simply _burn up_???? His clothes are on fire. Has he miraculously become some sort of god??? Second, they can clearly see him, yet they have to go across the street into a boarded up building, locate the basements, locate the correct direction, and dig their way thru?? This would take HOURS!!! And how do they know (especially as _I_ didn't) that since his clothes are already on fire, he isn't long since expired whilst they are pawing around down there in the (excessively fortuituous) tunnels?????? Then there is the radioactive character (forgot his name) who can only stay in the same room with anyone for a max of 5 minutes a day. What sort of magick is it that keeps HIM alive, when he can manage to kill an orchid with his radioactivity just by cupping it in his hands??? The mazes and baffles are never adequately explained. How do they work? Purely featureless?? Why can't I envision myself in the maze at Macy's, and jaunt there??? Or is it constantly changing?? But, so what. I'll just envision myself in the women's room instead. Or wherever. With a stocking over my head. Then I'll grab what I want out of the jewelry counter or the shoe department, and jaunt away. ??How did any store survive??? And why the silly artificial seeming barriers of distance?? 5 miles, 25, 100, 500, 1000??? No wonder Foyle was able to surmount these. So could anyone, if they believed they could...or so we find out. How did it happen to take so gosh-darn many years before someone had the nerve to try, and once the outer planet types had proof that someone had jaunted 650,000 miles, why did they need Foyle?? They should just go out and do it themselves??? Where's their initiative? The man was UNCONCIOUS when he jaunted that far. What made them think, even if they caught him, that he could tell them anything about how he did it? A character that can only see in infra-red vision??? And why should that prevent her from jaunting?? She can SEE after all. She can tell where she is. Just because it looks different from how other people see it... Moreover, if visualizing is so all fired important that you must actually SEE a place before you can go there by jaunting, I really don't see how they can expect to go to the stars. But the end of the book was about as clear as the end of _2001_ on this..lots of colors (scenes) but no explanation. Then he passes out. The end. *****END SPOILERS****** So...I understand why a previous respondent said he never read any more Bester after The Demolished Man. If its worse than this...I mean, suspension of belief is all well and fine (I have always enjoyed the Dragonriders of Pern stories: accept that dragons can fly and that the Red Star can fling spores across space and the rest of it holds water. Mostly.) But so many things were wrong with _The Stars My Destination_ I kept being mentally stopped to argue with it. I never did accept the end. I won't be rereading it...too many other, better, books out there yet to read!!! Sheri L. Smith-Moreau 3842 Brighton Ct Alexandria, VA 22305 (703) 836-1729 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 04:57:22 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #271:David Brin From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM David Brin has no need to envy the 'improved English' of the Covenant books. He actually talks like that. And I mean in conversations, not lectures. A bit pretentious, perhaps, but we all have our quirks. ------------------------------ From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) Subject: The Uplift War Date: 11 Jun 87 14:43:05 GMT The Uplift War David Brin This book is now out in paperback. It is set in the same universe as Startide Rising, and occurs after the events of that book, though it is not really a sequel. However, it does show us in more detail Galactic society, the Galactics' idea of the "uplift" process, and much else. With over 600 pages, there is room for much else, and it's all worth having. I found it a very good book, better than Startide Rising. The cast includes humans, the intelligent chimps, various aliens, but no dolphins (frankly, I don't miss them). The action takes place almost entirely on a small planet with only one major settlement; this allows the narrative to concentrate on characters, cameo scenes, and plot lines based largely on the internal workings of sapient minds. I shan't explain the plot, or give anything away, since I'm sure you'll want to read this book. But one word of reassurance: there is a war, with, in a sense, winners and losers. But the winners don't win by inventing superduper weapons, nor because their leader is a military genius from a parallel universe. Nor are there scenes of grunt & gore. The treatment is realistic and humane. Good SF. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 22:38:02 GMT From: srt@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: The Uplift War I just finished reading this, and while I enjoyed it a lot, I was disappointed with the characterization of the non-human races. The chimpanzees (who barely passed Stage 3 of the Uplift test, whatever that means), were depicted as humans with slight deficiencies in creative thought and attention to details. The Tymbrini were portrayed as "humans who don't understand metaphors". The Gubru aren't portrayed as human clones, but their psychological adaptment seemed curiously lacking. You'd expect a rather different view of the world from an avian, but the differences Brin portrays do not seem related to the racial background. The Triumvarite and its reflection in the Gubru language (the tripling of verbs - but shouldn't the verbs have reflected the Military, Religion and Accounting of the sentence, not be synonyms?) was neat and well done, but a rather shallow characterization. Anyone else bothered by this? Scott R. Turner UCLA Computer Science Domain: srt@ucla.cs.edu UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 20:14:23 GMT From: nee@sdics.ucsd.edu (Clydene Nee) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #271:David Brin >Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E@Xerox.COM wrote: >David Brin has no need to envy the 'improved English' of the >Covenant books. He actually talks like that. And I mean in >conversations, not lectures. A bit pretentious, perhaps, but we >all have our quirks. Yes, he does have a tendency lecture to audiences of even one, or less ;-). However, it's not exactly what I would call a "quirk(s)." David is a very gifted writer and speaker, though it should never openly admit it to him face to face; nowadays he does have a tendency to get rather amour-propre about the whole thing. In the days before he won the Hugo and Nebula for Star Tide Rising one would often see him captivate large groups with scintillating conversation, or reading short stories aloud. I wish I had a command of the English lanugange half as well as he has. Clydene Nee nee@sdics.ucsd.edu nee%sdics.ucsd.edu@RELAY.CS.NET {decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!ics!nee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 87 16:10:35 EDT From: martinte@wpafb-fdl.arpa Subject: Book Request... >Don't give up on Terry Brooks yet. I have a habit of not consigning >authors to the trash bin because of earlier works, so after reading >(and hating) the Shannara series, I read MAGIC KINGDOM FOR SALE: >SOLD!. ***IT WAS FANTASTIC!!!*** And it was nothing like the LORD >OF THE RINGS. Who are you trying to kid!! Brook's new novel MAGIC KINGDOM FOR SALE: SOLD! was about as exciting as watching dew collect on grass! The premise was an original idea to be sure, but the story was developed in such an unexciting way that I had to force myself to finish it. As for the Shannara series, granted that the **FIRST** book of the series was a lot like LOTR, but I have yet to hear of someone on the net who hasn't been able to finish it. There have been a few posting on the net about how boring LOTR was and how difficult (if not impossible!) it was to finish. I read the Shannara series BEFORE I read LOTR, and I was more impressed with Brook's version than then the long, drawn out version of Tolkien. _The Sword of Shannara_ was fast-paced, entertaining reading, and if you would stop trying to condemn the book because it is patterned after Tolkien you just might realize that it is enjoyable reading. And I enjoyed the next two as much as I did the first. Don't get me wrong. I did (after pushing myself through the first two books) enjoy LOTR very much, but after having read the Shannara series without the influence of Tolkien I found it to be the better series. Also, why not reserve your judgement until after you have read all three books! T. Martin Wright-Patterson AFB Dayton, Ohio 45433 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 18:47:58 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!uel!olgb1!riddle!domo@RUTGERS.EDU (Dominic From: Dunlop) Subject: Re: Book request... > Don't give up on Terry Brooks yet. I have a habit of not > consigning authors to the trash bin because of earlier works, so > after reading (and hating) the Shannara series, I read MAGIC > KINGDOM FOR SALE: SOLD!. ***IT WAS FANTASTIC!!!*** And it is > NOTHING like LORD OF THE RINGS. Seconded. MAGIC... is mildly humourous, doesn't require too many brain cells, and looks to me as if it's custom-made for a sequel. I was feeling depressed when I read it. It made the gloom evaporate. Strangely enough, the much-lauded David Brin has written a book in a rather similar vein, _The Practice Effect_. Totally unlike his other full-length works (_Sundiver_, _The Postman_, and (can't remember dolphin/human-crewed space ship novel title)), it ought to be a cert for a Spielberg film screenplay. (No charge for this idea...) That doesn't imply a lack of good thinking and self-consistency, in case anybody wondered. (Read Brin's other books too.) In this genre, I could also mention three books by Terry Pratchett: _The Colour of Magic_, _The Light Fantastic_ and _Equal Rites_. I don't know if they have been published in the US. The last is currently in hardback only here in the UK. Enormously funny (especially if you like bad puns and logical ideas developed to illogical extremes). Trivia buffs may be interested in the fact that Pratchett first developed the central idea of a flat world in _Strata_ a few years back, repopulating and considerably ornamenting it for the current series. Dominic Dunlop UKnet: domo@sphinx.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 16:30:07 GMT From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Lost Book: Title/Author Request From: blackje%sungod.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa > Anyone ever heard of a book titled "Lost; a Moon" ? ... It's a > book I read in childhood, and have since been unable to locate. > My impression was that it was by RAH; but I've been unable to find > any reference to it (particularly not in a list of RAH's > works).... It's by Paul Capon. It originally appeared in England under the title PHOBOS, THE ROBOT PLANET. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 23:55:06 GMT From: batoma@LLL-TIS.ARPA (Burt Toma) Subject: Sphere by Michael Crichton Anyone out there who enjoys Michael Crichton (... Andromeda Strain, Congo) should try his new book 'Sphere.' It's terrific. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 16:24:07 GMT From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) Subject: Re: Sphere by Michael Crichton batoma@lll-tis.arpa (Burt Toma) writes: > Anyone out there who enjoys Michael Crichton (... Andromeda > Strain, Congo) should try his new book 'Sphere.' It's terrific. What's it about? Any non-spoiling information to wet our appetities? Is it science fiction? Eiji Hirai USMail: Swarthmore College Swarthmore PA 19081 phone: for the summer it's (215)544-5349 UUCP: {seismo, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai ARPA: swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 15 Jun 87 0842-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #281 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Jun 87 0842-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #281 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 281 Today's Topics: Films - Robotech II: The Sentinels & Patrick Stewart & SF Movie Quiz & Space Balls & Phantom Of The Paradise ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jun 87 18:07:19 GMT From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto) Subject: Robotech II: The Sentinels (Some SPOILERS) This article contains spoilers: beware! On the weekend of May 30th, a Creation Con was held at the Golden Gateway Holiday Inn in San Francisco. Two of the guests were Carl Macek, and Greg Snegoff (Greg Snow in the credits -- he did Khyron, Scott Bernard, Mayor Luan, and Dr. Lang in Sentinels). They brought with them a copy of: Robotech II: The Sentinels. This article is intended to be a complete synopsis to the 70-minute movie. Before I go into the synopsis, I think I should thank an unknown person on Compu-serve who did a smaller piece on The Sentinels. General notes: It is unlikely that Robotech II will ever be seen on TV. At a cost of $975,000 (yes, three zeros) for the 70 minute segment, and with a planned 65 episodes, the total comes to around $16-18 million. The novelization for Robotech II will be published after Book #12 of the current Robotech series. Jack McKinney will be the author. The series will run to either 6 or 8 books. And now for the spoilers! Some notes on Robotech II: All of the actors who did the voiceovers are back except for Penny Sweet, who did Miriya and Nova Satori. The new voice is very different, and since Miriya no longer has green hair, she was unrecognizable at first. The time frame of The Sentinels is nine years after the wreck of the SDF-1 and 2. The SDF-3 is nearly complete and is about to embark on its mission to find the homeworld of the Robotech Masters to put an end to their conflict. All of the characters now wear the uniforms seen in the Southern Cross segment. Breetai has been micronized and wears a new face mask which pretty much obscures his whole face. Exedore has grown and looks more normal than before. Dr. Lang is now a major character. He is the Mission Leader. Robotech II: The Sentinels Veritech pilot Jack Baker and his squadron are in combat with an unknown enemy. Rick Hunter is in command of the squadron. Baker switches off his autopilot (he feels it's useless) and is reprimanded by Rick. The squadron is faced with a missile barrage. Baker, with some fancy flying, manages to shake them off. Rick, however, is hit. He is forced to ditch his fighter. Baker dives to his rescue. He finds Rick in a life raft, but is told to get back to the squadron. Baker is about to pick up Rick in his Veritech's hands when Zentraedi pods rise up out of the water, surrounding Baker. They open fire... Suddenly the scene changes. Baker, a Cadet of the Robotech Academy was in a trainer undergoing an exercise. He is debriefed by Major General Rick Hunter. He dresses Baker down for not obeying orders. After Baker leaves, General Max Sterling converses with Rick. Max reminds Rick of a certain amateur pilot he once knew. Rick agrees that Baker is a lot like he was many years ago. In a council chamber on Earth, Dr. Emil Lang and Exedore are briefing all of the Earth's Defense Force leaders on the upcoming mission. Exedore explains that it is to be a diplomatic mission to the third moon of Fantoma, called Tirol, the homeworld of the Robotech Masters. General Leonard complains that the departure of the SDF-3 will leave the Earth defenseless. In a bridal shop, Lisa is trying on her wedding gown. With her are Miriya, Randi Grant (Claudia's sister), Bowie Grant, and Dana Sterling. Suddenly, Minmei enters the shop. She explains that when she heard about the wedding, she just had to see her. She offers to sing at their wedding. Lisa gratefully accepts. On the planet Tirol, two scientists, Renn and Cabell (Renn is young, Cabell is old) are watching troop carriers land near a mining colony. Renn says that since the Robotech Masters left, there are only the sick and elderly available to fight the invaders. They watch the troop carriers disgorge an army of humanoid mecha and cat-shaped robots. Two Tirisians are killed to demonstrate the invulnerability of the mecha, though NOT of the cats (one of the characters dispatches some of them with a handgun). Cabell believes he knows who the invaders are -- the Invid. The style of fighting with drones and the general shape match. But, he says, the drones must have a central power source. If it can be knocked out, all the drones will be immobilized. Bioroids try to fight off the invaders, but they too fall to the drones. The Invid Leader arrives on board his flagship. He receives a report that there is no sign of the Robotech Masters on the planet. He also receives a voice transmission from his wife, the Regis, who disagrees with his plan. He can hardly wait to hear it. (Heavy sarcasm) On the way to the shuttle which will take them to the Robotech Repair Factory, some of Rick's friends notice that he is moping around. They arrive at the SDF-3, which is to be disguised as a Zentraedi battlecruiser. Though he has doubts about this scheme, Rick realizes that he has no choice anymore. The plan must go on. Privately, Rick questions himself about his right to command all these people and whether he deserves Lisa. (Flashback) Exedore continues to brief the leaders aboard the SDF-3. He says that the Tirisians are generally peaceful. (NOTE: Apparently the Robotech Masters are different from the Tirisians in general) The crew of the SDF-3 will be selected, beginning tomorrow. Cadet Baker is met by Col. Edwards. Edwards, believing Rick unfit for the command, and perhaps wanting more glory for himself, tries to enlist Baker to his cause. Breetai meets them on the SDF-3. He is now seems like a father figure now that he has been micronized. Exedore recounts the history of protoculture and of the Zentraedi. Renn and Cabell realize that the Invid are searching for the Flower of Life. But since the Robotech Masters took all of it when they left for Earth, the Invid will never find it on Tirol, even if they tore the planet apart. Cabell remarks that no one accused the Invid of being logical, only thorough. But, they have noticed that certain indigenous creatures seem to react to the presence of the Invid. Cabell postulates a biogenetic link between the two. They leave their research institute to try to capture a cat-drone. They try an electric net, but the drone breaks free. Cabell would have died had not Renn been able to fly an (empty) Invid shock trooper and destroy the drone. The Invid Leader is told that there are no signs of the Flower of Life. The Regis, claiming that she is higher on the evolutionary scale, tells the Leader that he should be following the trace of Zor's battlecruiser. Then she leaves him. In space, Max and Karen Pan are testing the Alpha/Beta prototypes. They go through an undocking transformation to Battloid. Upon redocking, Karen's Alpha is damaged and begins to re-enter. Max manages to save her. Karen's father, Harry Pan, a leader of Earth's Defense Force, objects to Karen's being a test pilot. She, however, WILL be a pilot. Dr. Lang confirms her appointment to the SDF-3 as a pilot. The Invid Leader sends a crony to Tirol with orders to find the Flower of Life. First, however, the Invid will assault the capital of Tirol to force the inhabitants to tell him where the Robotech Masters and the Flower have gone. With crew selection 70% complete, an officer tells Rick of his suspicions about Col. Edwards. Baker, undergoing his exams, receives an invitation to the wedding and an appointment to the crew of the SDF-3. Max finally confronts Rick about his attitude. Rick claims exhaustion from his duties and the responsibility of command. Col. Edwards breaks in, loudly protests comments behind his back and claims total loyalty. He is waved away with assurances from Rick. Lisa thinks about their 9-year engagement. She wonders how she could have fooled herself all this time -- Rick still loves Minmei. (Flashback) Rick talks with Lisa. Rick is concerned about leaving the Earth and about their marriage. Lisa jokes that he's had 9 years to think about them both. Rick reassures her that he is okay, just concerned. Renn and Cabell discover a positive link between the creatures and the Invid. It is the day of the wedding. Rick and Max have some fun with Rick's bowtie. In the audience, Minmei tells Janice (Jan Morris?) about her "wedding" with Rick. (Flashback) Janice tells Minmei that it's no use thinking about "what could have been"'s. The Invid make their assault on the capital of Tirol. Prisoners are to be taken for inquisition. The bioroids and defense guns are of no use. Renn and Cabell abandon the institute to the catacombs beneath it. They vow revenge on the Invid. In a prison, the Invid Leader questions some of the prisoners. They claim that the Robotech Masters left with all of the Flower of Life and that they do not know where they have gone. The Leader believes that they are telling him the truth and rewards them with a time bomb. The wedding ceremony is underway. Breetai, acting as Lisa's father, gives her away to Rick. Max is Rick's best man (Is Miriya Lisa's Maid of Honor? We never get to see). Bowie is the Ringbearer, Dana follows Lisa's train. The ceremony itself is very short ("With this ring I thee wed...") Scene with Lisa feeding Rick from the cake (I won't tell you if she smashes some in his face or not). Minmei and Janice sing a song as Rick and Lisa Hunter dance their first dance as man and wife. (NOTE: When I watched this, I could hear Reba West's voice. When I listened to the audio tape I had made, I couldn't hear her. The credits list the wedding song as sung by Sunny Hilden(sp?). Presumably Reba West also sang it) At the reception, Col. Jonathan Wolfe meets Minmei, claiming that he's always wanted to meet her. Minmei begs off any conversation with him. Jack Baker meets Karen Pan. There is a definite possibility of a love interest here. Lisa throws the bouquet. Minmei catches it. (NOTE: Too bad Rick doesn't get to throw Lisa's garter. Guess the censors wouldn't like what Rick would have to do to take it off. Heh, heh!) She realizes that she has finally lost Rick forever. She thinks that she must get on living the rest of her life. Rick and Lisa leave for their 5-hour honeymoon. (The SDF-3 launches then) In her own "ship", the Regis contemplates her plan. She will travel to and activate the sensor nebula and wait for any traces of protoculture. Then she will attack and retrieve the lost Flowers of Life. THE END Final notes: The Regis' plan as stated contrasts greatly with her plan in the Mospaeda segment. I guess she changed her mind later. There was a lot of stuff garnered from other sources. The simulator is a lot like the one in Star Trek II. Baker's line, "I don't think it was a fair test of my abilities" is almost exact to Saavik's. The scene with the first two Tirisians is taken from the Star Trek episode "Friday's Child". Cabell looks a lot like one of the Elders from Heavy Metal. There is a Captain Harlock clone in one throw-away shot. In general, the animation is so-so. All of the characters look a lot different than they did. It is 9 years later, but still.... Lisa now sports an asymmetric hair style. Final impressions: Not great, but not bad either. It's nice to see (and hear) more of the characters. But, something seems missing. Some vital spark or such. It just doesn't have the same intensity or feeling as the original (especially the Macross segment). Jeff Okamoto hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com ..!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 87 07:09:49 GMT From: ames!styx!oodis01!uplherc!esunix!rushfort@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin From: Rushforth) Subject: ST:TNG (Really Patrick Stewart's other roles) Someone posted an article a while back (sorry, I lost the reference) asking what part Patrick Stewart* played in the movies Excalibur and Dune. I just watched Excalibur again, and Patrick Stewart played Leondegrance, Guenevere's father, the first knight who became loyal to King Arthur. In Dune, he played Gurney Halleck, Paul Atreides' trainer and friend. I was impressed with his performance in both movies, although his part was minor in Excalibur. * - For those who don't know by now, Patrick Stewart will play Capt. Jean-Luc Picard in Star Trek: The Next Generation Kevin C. Rushforth Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation UUCP: {ihnp4,ucbvax,decvax,allegra}!decwrl!esunix!rushfort {ihnp4,seismo}!utah-cs!utah-gr!uplherc!esunix!rushfort seismo!usna!esunix!rushfort ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 87 03:48:11 GMT From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper) Subject: SF Movie Quiz About three month ago Mark Rossner ran a film trivia quiz. I entered it without any warning what responsibilties would go with doing well. I got first place and THEN Mark told me that this meant I had to run the next trivia quiz. Hmmph! Well, this is the promised trivia quiz. The following quiz I have been obliged to run. The following were all invented by scriptwriters for science fiction films. For each you must identify the film and identify what the word or phrase refers to. 1. Alec McEwen Expedition 2. Anti-Matter Cannon 3. Bellerophon 4. Binary Load Lifters 5. Bloodrust 6. Brundlefly 7. Caprona 8. Cargonite 9. Cosmostrator 10. Degenerol 11. Duocaine 12. Infinitely-Indexed Memory Bank 13. Interociter 14. Kohlinar 15. Markolite 16. Metaluna 17. Mynocks 18. Operation Skyhook 19. Oxygen Destroyer 20. Planet Zira 21. Portable Reactor 22. Power X 23. Report on a Biological Imbalance in an Upland Arizona Valley 24. Rhodosaurus 25. Shiraishi Report I expect that there are some entries there that large numbers of people will recognize and some that nobody will recognize. Valid responses are those that reach me in June. I will grade your papers and announce who did the best some time around Independence Day. In the meantime you are on the honor system. You can look in books but do not look on anyone else's paper. Pocket calculators will be allowed, but are unlikely to do you any good. Good luck. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper [Moderator's Note: Please send all responses directly to the poster. Winners and answers will be announced in mid-July.] ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 1987 10:16 EDT (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: Rodney Elin Subject: Mel Brooks (was Asimov's Mega-ology) Mel Brooks is indeed doing a SW takeoff, _Space Balls_ in which he plays the part of Yogurt, Master of the Schwartz. That's about all I know other than that one of the villians is named Dark Helmet (he uses the Schwartz to find a helmet that fits) and another is named Pizza-The-Hut. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 21:44:14 GMT From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE From: sunybcs!ansley (William H. Ansley) > ...This film is a rock & roll version of the Phantom of the Opera > with elements of the Faust legend thrown in. Actually, it's more akin to Oscar Wilde's THE PICTURE OF DORIAN GRAY than FAUST. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 15 Jun 87 0855-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #282 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Jun 87 0855-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #282 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 282 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Chandler & Ellison & Foster & Gibson & Leiber & Morris & Niven & Pratchett & Sturgeon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Jun 87 04:30:29 GMT From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Poul Anderson > From: thumper!mike (Mike Caplinger) > Has anyone ever seen this anywhere except in the original, I think > it was GALAXY, magazine printing? As far as I can tell, it's the > only Polesotechnic League/Terran Empire story that hasn't been > collected somewhere or another. It originally appeared in PLANET STORIES (Jan 1952). And you're right --- it *is* the only Technic History story that hasn't been reprinted anywhere. From: sci!daver (David Rickel) > krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens) writes: >> I enjoyed Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos". Was it part of a >> series? > Loosely. _Three Hearts and Three Lions_, _A Midsummer Tempest_, > and _Operation Chaos_ all appear to be in the same meta-universe. > There are some short stories that take place there also--these > short stories involve the House between Worlds (a tavern connected > to various timelines). Well, I wouldn't exactly say that the three novels are part of the same series or "meta-universe". The conceit of the Old Phoenix (that's the name of the tavern you mention) is that it's a place where characters from any universe can meet up with each other. If you read the Old Phoenix scenes carefully, you can find various other characters. It's been a while since I read either story featuring the OP, but I seem to recall Nick van Rijn being described in one scene, for example. Outside of A MIDSUMMER TEMPEST, there's only one story that features the old Phoenix: "House Rule", which first appeared in the collection HOMEBREW (a limited edition book published by NESFA for the Boskone at which Anderson was GoH) and later appeared in the paperback collection FANTASY. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 08:21:52 GMT From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Raymond Chandler Fantasy From: Boebert@mit-multics.arpa > Raymond Chandler (a mystery writer of note) supposedly wrote a > group of fantasy stories near the end of his life. Did these ever > get published anywhere? I know of only two fantasy stories written by Raymond Chandler. The first, "The Bronze Door" was published in UNKNOWN, Nov 1939, and reprinted in F&SF, Oct 1953. The other,, "Professor Bingo's Snuff" first appeared in PARK-EAST MAGAZINE, July/Aug 1951, and reprinted in FANTASTIC, Summer 1952. To my knowledge, neither of these stories have been collected. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: BLOOD'S A ROVER (was re: Many things about Harlan Ellison) Date: 12 Jun 87 12:15:26 GMT From: venera.isi.edu!galloway (Tom Galloway) > Blood's A Rover: This was announced back in '80/'81 and a cover > was commissioned. It was to include A Boy and His Dog, Eggsucker, > and another story who's title I forget. Eggsucker, and I believe > the other story, appeared about that time in a book/magazine > called Ariel. The third story was "Run, Spot, Run". It first appeared in Jim Steranko's magazine MEDIASCENE in 1980, and was reprinted in AMAZING, Jan 1981. "Eggsucker" did indeed appear in ARIEL (Volume 2) and was reprinted in a British anthology, THE SAVOY BOOK (edited by David Britton). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 19:15:28 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Spellsinger Series From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (John White) > As I heard it (on some pannel at a con from ADF himself), the > first two books of the series (Spellsinger and The Hour of the > Gate) were originally one book. The publisher cut it into two, > and I believe that they didn't even tell anyone on the cover of > the first edition that it was the first of two. ADF wasn't happy > about the split, but it wasn't up to him. As a matter of fact, these first two books were originally published as a single limited edition hardcover by Phantasia Press under the title SPELLSINGER AT THE GATE. It was the later paperback edition that split it in two. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 May 87 07:53 EDT From: SJONES%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Hacking the ice in _Burning Chrome_ I hate to bring up old discussions, but back around the end of April there was discussion as to the origins of the term ice for electronic security measures. I don't recall if an answer was ever posted (please mail it!), but I was stuck reading this back issue due to the way SF-Lovers is digested and stored on our system and remembered something I'd read in _Omni_ a long time back. I proceeded to rummage through stacks of magazines... The story was by one William Gibson in the July '82 issue. The term ice was attributed to the acronym (sp?) ICE, Intrusion Countermeasures Electronics which term was not then attributed to anything else. I recall someone on the net came close - come over sometime, I'll give you a Cupie Doll (for real trivia - where'd that one come from, and how do you spell it?) This particular story is really quite good, though I haven't read anything else that I remember by Gibson, and is set in the same kind of future noire as _Bladerunner_, et al (had to use the favorite). Some interesting social asides including designer replacement parts such as eyes for the jet set socialite. I also came across alot of other good stuff in _Omni_ while I went through them moldering oldies. Is the fiction and pseudo-science still as good? Financial considerations (good bureaucratic term) forced me to drop the subscription during high school, but I'd be interested in opinions. Just hated to see a loose end dangling at 4 in the morning... Steve Jones BITNET: sjones@umass CSNET: sjones%hamp@umass-cs UUCP: ...seismo!UMASS.BITNET!sjones INTERNET:sjones%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu USnail: box 753; Hampshire College; Amherst, MA 01002 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 05:39:00 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Fritz Leiber From: adt@eagle.ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas) > On the subject of one off Fafhred and the Grey Mouser stories > I remember one called The_Two_Best_Thieves_In_Lankhmar where the > dynamic duo get ripped off by two female thieves. I can't remember > where it appeared, possbily in an anthology of S&S stories called > The_Barbarian_Swordsmen. Well, there was no anthology called THE BARBARIAN SWORDSMEN, though there were two companion anthologies edited by Hans Stefan Santesson called THE MIGHTY BARBARIANS and THE MIGHTY SWORDSMEN. Neither had that Leiber story in it, though the former had another F&GM story, "When the Sea-King's Away", in it. "The Two Best Thieves in Lankhmar" appeared in one of the F&GM collections anyways, SWORDS AGAINST WIZARDRY. From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI > Rolf Howarth asked if there were any Fafhrd & Gray Mouser stories > other than "the six 'Swords' books". Well, I don't know if this > story eventually appeared in one of those books, but I just > happened to have recently finished reading a 1974 DAW paperback > called THE BOOK OF FRITZ LEIBER, which consists of stories > selected by Leiber which had not been published or anthologized in > other readily-available sources, and which has an introduction by > Leiber discussing the publishing history of each item. One of > these is a short-short (only 2 pages of text!) called "Beauty and > the Beasts", with Fafhrd and the Mouser, which the intro describes > as "especially written for this book". (Maybe this is a rare > collectible, the only source of this ever printed? ...) Sorry to burst your bubble, but the story was reprinted in SWORDS AND ICE MAGIC. > This brings up a question about this book which occurred to me as > I was reading it. Maybe jayembee or another bibliographic expert > can say just what the publishing history of this story was, and > reduce my confusion: This book includes a story in Leiber's > "Change War" series, titled "Knight to Move". Leiber's intro > (remember, this is vintage 1974) states, "It previously saw light > only in the excellent girlie magazine BROADSIDE." However, as I > read this story, I clearly and distinctly recalled having read it > before, and I never have seen a magazine called "Broadside"! I > don't think I've read much Leiber later than 1974, so it is > doubtful that I read it in some other anthology during this past > decade ... I am next to positive that I read that story sometime > *BEFORE* 1974, but the author himself states that it was not > published in anything I would have read during that timeframe! So > I am really confused... Any explanations? (I suppose Leiber could > simply have been wrong...) No, he wasn't wrong. That particular story has appeared in two other Leiber collections: THE CHANGE WAR (Gregg Press, 1978) and CHANGEWAR (Ace, 1983). You *must* have read one of those two, and just didn't remember it. Anyways, to answer the original question, the following are Fafhrd & Gray Mouser stories that didn't appear in the five F&GM collections: HEROES AND HORRORS [Fritz Leiber] "Sea Magic" (from THE DRAGON, Dec 1977) "The Mer She" (original to this collection) HEROIC VISIONS [ed. by Jessica Amanda Salmonson] "The Curse of the Smalls and the Stars" --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 15:24:27 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!uel!olgb1!riddle!news@RUTGERS.EDU (UNIX From: Netnews) Subject: Re: Book request... katinsky@swatsun (Matt Katinsky) writes: > These books are sometimes hard to find, but the few people I have > met who have heard of them, rave about them as much as I. They > represent very different styles of fantasy writing. > > 1) _The_Worm_Ouroborus_ (sp?) by E.R. Eddison. Filled with the > moral and OK. So we're getting into (relative) esoterica here. For a predecessor of today's fantasy genre, William Morris is well worth a look. His books, written around 1899, are The Well at the World's End (two volumes) The Water of the Wondrous Isles The Sundering Flood News from Nowhere. While the last veers towards picturing a socialist utopia (Morris, a member of the pre-Raphaelite brotherhood, played a prominent path in the 19th century arts & crafts movement, and was a tireless crusader for socialism), the others are straight fantasy in a medieval milieu. Some may find the fact that they're written in pseudo-medieval English off-putting. No, not the stuff you get in the Canterbury tales, or Morte d'Artur, but definitely not Victorian English. All were in paperback print at the beginning of the seventies when, following the success of _Lord of the Rings_, all sorts of unlikely stuff was dusted off. Ballantine published the first two on the list; the others came from smaller houses. In my opinion (and, as an engineer, I'm uniquely qualified to comment), Morris influenced both Tolkien and C S Lewis. The fact that they were Oxford dons and that Morris studied in Oxford a century earlier may or may not be relevant... Dominic Dunlop domo@sphinx.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 20:39:10 GMT From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction >Do people have suggestions as to which book one should recommend to >a friend interested in trying sf at least once? I highly recommend Footfall by Larry Niven for a first timer. It is set in the near future, in this universe, on this planet, and you don't have to suspend belief in much in order to accept what's happenning in the book. I thought it was great. According to Niven (we talked to him at a book signing) he and Pourenelle wrote themselves in as two of the sf writes the government gets together to try and anticipate the aliens. pyramid!pyrtech!nancym ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 13 June 1987 12:42:07 Subject: The Colour of Magic, Terry Pratchett *** Mild Spoilers *** From: ARP11%CAM.PHX%UK.AC.CAM.ENG-ICF@ac.uk How many people out there have read any of Terry Pratchett's books ? He has written a series starting with "The Colour of Magic" and continuing from there. He has also written a number of other books including one called "Strata" that I only came across a couple of weeks ago. His writing style seems very light and is easy to read. His descriptive power is so powerful that you do not actually notice it. The world he creates for us is based around the flat earth supported on four elephants that are standing on the back of a turtle swimming through space. The story revolves around the first tourist to visit the country and his companion wizard Rincewind, who together basically bumble from one situation into the next. The sketches in the book are very funny and consistent, often based around parts of the real world. Side items such as the difference in the exchange rate and a real death only serve to amuse the reader even further. A quick quote: "Magic never dies, it merely fades away. Nowhere is this more evident than on the wide blue expanse of the diskworld than in those areas that had been the scene of the great battles of the Mage wars, which had happened shortly after Creation. Magic in its raw state had been widely available, and had been eagerly used by the first Men in their war against the Gods. The precise origins of the Mage Wars have been lost in the fogs of Time, but the disc philosophers agree that the first Men, shortly after their creation, understandably lost their temper. And great and pyrotechnic were the battles that followed - [etc ... ] "... and much of the old wild magic was sucked out of the earth. " That did not solve the problem of those places on the disc which, during the Mage wars, had suffered a direct hit by a spell. The magic faded away - slowly, over the millenia, releasing as it decayed myriads of sub-astral particles that severely distorted the reality around it ..." The two wanderers then go off and meet dragons and see the rim-falls etc. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 14:05:03 GMT From: hugo@GNOME.CS.CMU.EDU (Peter Su) Subject: Wanted: Anything by Theodore Sturgeon Okay, okay, I've had enough! I've been trying to locate works by this guy for years and years, and I've loved everything I've ever read by him, but the truth is, I just don't what what he's done. So anyway, is there any kind soul out there that has the comprehensive all knowing list of Sturgeon works that are in print, out of print, or even never printed? Does anyone have little clues as to where to find more of his stuff? I really want to get another copy of _More Than Human_, I had one, but I lost it (oh shame!). Seems to me it was a Penguin Classic thingy, do they still make that one? thanks, Pete ARPA: hugo@gnome.cs.cmu.edu UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,ihnp4,cmucspt}!hugo@gnome.cs.cmu.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 15 Jun 87 0959-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #283 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Jun 87 0959-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #283 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 283 Today's Topics: Television - Doctor Who (11 msgs) & _Alfred Hitchcock Presents_ (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Jun 87 05:38:00 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!trekker@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Dr. Who queries The local PBS station started showing Dr. Who episodes from the first season with Tom Baker earlier this year, and I've thought some of the recent ones they've been showing like "Face of Evil" were pretty good. They seem to be better when they don't have stories where a guy in a monster suit staggers around stomping on cardboard minitures or strangling bad actors. They've gotta do something about that costume designer, though. He or she seems to create the gaudiest, goofiest outfits, I've ever seen. They needed someone like William Theiss from the Star Trek series. Now that lad could design costumes. Especially for the female guest stars! Anyway, I missed some of the episodes, and there are a few changes I never saw the cause of. 1. Why did Miss Smith (Elisabeth Sladen) stop travelling with Doctor? 2. How did the interior of the Tardis get remodeled? 3. Why are there no female timelords? 4. Are the Dr. Who novels worth reading? Are they cranked out monthly like Trek novels and are often just as badly written? BUCC2!trekker Bradley University Peoria, IL ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 14:34:29 GMT From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries >The local PBS station started showing Dr. Who episodes from the >first season... >that lad could design costumes. Especially for the female guest >stars! > Anyway, I missed some of the episodes, and there are a few >changes I never saw the cause of. > 1. Why did Miss Smith (Elisabeth Sladen) stop travelling with > Doctor? The Doctor received a call from Gallifrey ( turns out to have been a ruse by the Master to get the Doctor into trouble) and he could not take Sarah with him, so he dropped her off on Earth and off he went. > 2. How did the interior of the Tardis get remodeled? It didn't get remodeled. What you see is the OLD control room, which the Doctor and Sarah stumbled upon. I assume it was the control room from the Troughton days, as there was a recorder flitting about ( one of Doctor #2's trademarks). > 3. Why are there no female timelords? There are, or at least will be (was ?). I recall female Timelords in the Davison and Colin Baker episodes. > 4. Are the Dr. Who novels worth reading? Are they cranked out > monthly like Trek novels and are often just as badly written? Don't know on this one, I've never read any. D.L. Kosenko seismo!ulysses!dlk ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 14:07:17 GMT From: langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu (John E. Langbein) Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) >> 2. How did the interior of the Tardis get remodled? > It didn't get remodeled. What you see is the OLD control room, > which the Doctor and Sarah stumbled upon. I assume it was the > control room from the Traughton days, as there was a recorder > flitting about ( one of Doctor #2's trademarks). (note name spelling) I never saw that control room in the Troughton episodes. His room looked much like it did with the thing in the middle going up and down (time rotor I believe it is called). Then again, I only saw his 5 existing complete storys. In The Two Doctors (a CBaker story), the Doctor (Troughton) had a console much like T.Baker (When he first starts, not the alternate room w/o rotor stumbled accidentally upon). >>3. Why are there no female timelords? > There are, or at least will be (was ?). I recall female Timelords > in the Davison and Colin Baker episodes. His next companion after Leela is a female Timelord. (Romana...) You even get to see her regenerate. John Langbein ARPA: langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu UUCP: !rutgers!topaz!langbein Phone: 1-<201>-932-3129 (work) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 21:22:47 GMT From: moss!inuxd!jody@RUTGERS.EDU (JoLinda Ross) Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries > Anyway, I missed some of the episodes, and there are a few >changes I never saw the cause of. > 1. Why did Miss Smith (Elisabeth Sladen) stop travelling with > Doctor? As I remember, The Doctor's adventures took them close enough to her home and time that she stayed. I don't remember what show it was but near the end of the first season with Tom Baker. > 2. How did the interior of the Tardis get remodeled? All I remember is that they added a ramdomizer (sp?) to prevent the Black Guardian from finding them and then there was redecoration. > 3. Why are there no female timelords? Technically there is, Romana is a timelord. However, the show has never to my rememberings, explained why the women stay home and be part of the council. > 4. Are the Dr. Who novels worth reading? Are they cranked out > monthly like Trek novels and are often just as badly written? I don't know, I only paged through them in the store and didn't feel the need to buy one. jody ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 02:08:05 GMT From: welty@sundown.steinmetz (richard welty) Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) > 4. Are the Dr. Who novels worth reading? Are they cranked out > monthly like Trek novels and are often just as badly written? They read like translations of scripts into novelizations (not suprisingly). Could be worth it to some to pick up novelizations of some of the missing episodes, though. Richard Welty CSNet: welty@crd.ge.COM Internet: welty@ge-crd.ARPA Usenet: {seismo!rochester,ihnp4!chinet}!steinmetz!crd!welty ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 11:49:39 GMT From: langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu (John E. Langbein) Subject: Sorry, but Re: Dr. Who queries > From: jody@inuxd.UUCP (JoLinda Ross) >> Anyway, I missed some of the episodes, and there are a few >> changes I never saw the cause of. >> 1. Why did Miss Smith (Elisabeth Sladen) stop travelling with >> Doctor? > > As I remember, The Doctor's adventures took them close enough to > her home and time that she stayed. I don't remember what show it > was but near the end of the first season with Tom Baker. No. The Doctor was re-called to Gallifrey. He could not bring Sarah Jane with him, since it would be dangerous. I also think they don't like aliens in the Penaptagon. >> 2. How did the interior of the Tardis get remodeled? > > All I remember is that they added a ramdomizer (sp?) to prevent > the Black Guardian from finding them and then there was > redecoration. Well, the tardis had been remodled several times over the years, but the remodeling referred to here is the alternate control room stumbled upon by the Doctor and Sarah Jane. >> 3. Why are there no female timelords? > Technically there is, Romana is a timelord. However, the show has > never to my rememberings, explained why the women stay home and be > part of the council. There are a bunch of MAle Chaevenist Pigs there :->. Seriously, there are women in the race there, but Timelord is more of a title. Again, a certain level must be obtained. Not a spoiler, but the Inquisitor in the Trial of a Timelord was a woman, and probably a Timelord of rather High standing. >> 4. Are the Dr. Who novels worth reading? Are they cranked >> out monthly like Trek novels and are often just as badly >> written? > > I don't know, I only paged through them in the store and didn't > feel the need to buy one. I don't know, but if it is a missing episode, I might just try it. John Langbein ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 12:16:54 GMT From: uwvax!astroatc!terminus!nyssa@RUTGERS.EDU (The Prime Minister) Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) > 4. Are the Dr. Who novels worth reading? Are they cranked out > monthly like Trek novels and are often just as badly > written? > Don't know on this one, I've never read any. Well, I have. I find the books on stories I've seen to be moderately interesting, with variable quality. Yes, they are "cranked out" monthly, but by a collection of many writers. (It used to be Terrance Dicks who did so!) Some are quite well written, adding something to the story which may have been lost in filming. The bad ones are just re-writes of the scripts. When I first started reading the novels (1981!) it seemed like the US may never get the older stuff, so I was reading just to see the stories. (And that is still the case with the older "missing" episodes!) Then, they are definitely worthwhile, even the ones with weaker writing. Now, Target (the publisher) is having as many of the old stories written as they can. The only blocks are the Dalek stories and the Douglas Adams stories, both apparently contract problems. For the Peter Davison era, the only book not written is "Ressurection of the Daleks", for Tom Baker, "City of Death", "The Pirate Planet", and "Shada". It is hard to say which book is the best, there are a number of good ones. It is VERY EASY to say which is worst! (This wasn't true a few weeks ago!) It must be "Slipback" by Eric Saward. This is the only novelisation that I couldn't finish. BAD BAD BAD. Avoid if at all possible. There is starting a series of books on the other adventures of companions. These are not too bad, but certainly not canonical. James C. Armstrong, Jnr. (nicmad,ulysses,ihnp4)!terminus!nyssa ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 14:32:18 GMT From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries But seriously. I have never seen any Troughton episodes. I assumed the control room was from that era due to the presence of a recorder ( a lot of stills I have seen of Troughton's Doctor has him with it ) in that room. Perhaps it is the control room from the first Doctor. I have never seen any of these episodes either, so again this is speculation. The Doctor does tell SJS that it is an old control room that he hasn't used in a long time. (I especially like the shaving mirror on the top.) I can only claim temporary memory bank failure for forgetting about Romana. She is indeed the first female Timelord I remember seeing. D.L. Kosenko seismo!ulysses!dlk ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 17:40:58 GMT From: langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu (John E. Langbein) Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) > But seriously. I have never seen any Troughton episodes. I > assumed the control room was from that era due to the presence of > a recorder ( a lot of stills I have seen of Troughton's Doctor has > him with it ) in that room. Perhaps it is the control room from > the first Doctor. I have never seen any of these episodes either, > so again this is speculation. The Doctor does tell SJS that it is > an old control room that he hasn't used in a long time. (I > especially like the shaving mirror on the top.) Seriously, Hartnell never had a control room like that in the existing episodes. The same is for Troughton. Though the 1st season of Troughton is missing, hints lead me to believe the room was not like that then. Maybe it's from Pre-Chesterton days, You know, before the Series began? I tend to think it a JN-T Inconsistency. :-> Even if it was before his time, It was his fault! :-> John Langbein ARPA: langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu UUCP: !rutgers!topaz!langbein Phone: 1-<201>-932-3129 (work) ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 08:15:33 GMT From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner) Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) writes: >> 3. Why are there no female timelords? > There are, or at least will be (was ?). I recall female >Timelords in the Davison and Colin Baker episodes. Don't forget, Ramona (sp?), who travelled with the Tom Baker Doctor through 2 regenerations, was also a Timelord. David Guntner UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 12:14:37 GMT From: aw@doc.imperial.ac.uk (Andrew Weeks) Subject: Dr.Who Changes Warning - Contains Minor Spoilers > 2. How did the interior of the Tardis get remodeled? > > 3. Why are there no female timelords? As I remember (these episodes are over 10 years old and I haven't seen them since the initial broadcast), the Tardis interior has NOT been remodeled, the Doctor simply started using another Control Room. The Tardis interior is in fact of infinite extent (It may be a different dimension), and has infinitely many rooms, many of which are control rooms. I don't think even the doctor knows what's in there!!! There ARE female Timelords (Timeladies ???). One (called Romana) worked for a few seasons as the Doctor's sidekick, and even went through a regeneration/metamorphosis. She was played initially by Mary Tamm (as in the Odessa File) and then by an actress whose name slips my mind but who is now, I think, Mrs. Tom Baker. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 87 19:22:04 GMT From: levin@cc5.bbn.com.bbn.com (Joel B Levin) Subject: SF on _Alfred Hitchcock Presents_ I saw an SF episode of _Alfred Hitchcock Presents_ last night (circa 1960, half hour), starring Steve McQueen and Arthur Hill. It was pretty well done, though it was predictable. It turned out to be based on a Frederic Brown story, "The Last Martian". I like Brown's stories but I don't think I have read this one (though if I did long ago, that might explain why it was predictable to me). A Brown story was also adapted for Star Trek, which made me wonder ... who in SF has had the most stories adapted for TV shows? I am excluding stories and scripts written specifically for a TV show by SF authors; rather I am talking of published stories later adapted (by the author or someone else). Incidentally, I really enjoy the old Hitchcock series. Hitchcock often got together a bunch of English character actors, such as a young Denholm Elliot, to do an old fashioned kind of English story. He also got some famous actors from the 30s or 40s, like Franchot Tone or Claude Raines, to perform on TV. And occasionally the stories are really good. JBL UUCP: {harvard, husc6, etc.}!bbn!levin ARPA: levin@bbn.com ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 05:31:14 GMT From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: SF on ALFRED HITCHCOCK PRESENTS From: cc5.bbn.com!levin > I saw an SF episode of _Alfred Hitchcock Presents_ last night > (circa 1960, half hour), starring Steve McQueen and Arthur Hill. > It was... based on a Frederic Brown story, "The Last > Martian"....A Brown story was also adapted for Star Trek, which > made me wonder ... who in SF has had the most stories adapted for > TV shows? I am excluding stories and scripts written specifically > for a TV show by SF authors; rather I am talking of published > stories later adapted (by the author or someone else). Good question. I'm not sure that I could come up with a definitive answer. I can come up with a likely list of candidates, though. In each of these cases, the author in question wrote a lot of screenplays, and likely adapted much of his work in the process. Charles Beaumont Robert Bloch * Fredric Brown * Roald Dahl ** Richard Matheson Jerry Sohl * Since I have Bloch and Brown bibliographies handy, I can tell you that each has had about 30 stories adapted for tv (the number of Brown stories is questionable, since the bibliographer listed stories for which sales were noted in Brown's records, but it's not clear that they were actually produced). ** Most, if not all, of the stories on the British tv show [ROALD DAHL'S] TALES OF THE UNEXPECTED were adapted from Dahl's stories. Then again, I'm not sure of what percentage were sf/fantasy. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 15 Jun 87 1024-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #284 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Jun 87 1024-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #284 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 284 Today's Topics: Books - Lovecraft (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Jun 87 20:11:58 GMT From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) Subject: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? Hello: I was wondering whether anyone who have read Lovecraft could make suggestions or pointers as to where a person should start in reading his works. There seems to be a lot of short story collections but I don't want to wade through all of that to get to the good stories. Any help would be appreciated! Eiji Hirai USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081 phone: for the summer it's (215)544-5349 UUCP: {seismo, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai ARPA: swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 14:08:01 GMT From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) Subject: Lovecraft recommendations (reply) hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai) writes: > I was wondering whether anyone who have read Lovecraft could > make suggestions or pointers as to where a person should start in > reading his works. There seems to be a lot of short story > collections but I don't want to wade through all of that to get to > the good stories. Any help would be appreciated! Basically, you have to make a choice based on your tastes. Like dream-like fantasy? Read his earlier stories. Like horror stories? Read his later ones. The best of his fantasies include "The Cats of Ulthar", "The Doom That Came to Sarnath", "The Strange High House in the Mist", and "The White Ship". The best of his horror stories include "The Call of Cthulhu", "The Dunwich Horror", "The Shadow over Innsmouth", "The Colour out of Space", "Pickman's Model", "The Shadow out of Time", and "The Statement of Randolph Carter". Some of his "revisions" (ghost-writing for other authors) are pretty good, too. I especially like "The Curse of Yig" and "The Mound". This is all from memory and so is in no way complete. I'll say more by private e-mail, if you want. And wait until you get to the *other* authors who've contributed to the Cthulhu Mythos! I reread "The Festival" every Christmas Eve! :-) Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP: {ames, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 17:28:05 GMT From: kdw1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Keith Waclena) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? A.G. Hirai writes: > I was wondering whether anyone who have read Lovecraft > could make suggestions or pointers as to where a person should > start in reading his works. There seems to be a lot of short > story collections but I don't want to wade through all of that to > get to the good stories. Any help would be appreciated! I haven't read much Lovecraft since I was 13 or so, but I can enthusiastically recommend *At the Mountains of Madness*, a novellete/novella/noveloid (i.e., it's not too long a novel) about an expedition to Antarctica that uncovers -- well, I won't say what. The suspense in the first half of the book is almost unbearable! It's great. I recently saw a new paperback publication of a collection of stories by Robert Howard (of Conan fame?) entitled something like *Tales of the Cthulu Mythos*. I thought this Cthulu stuff was Lovecraft. Can somebody explain? Keith Waclena University of Chicago Graduate Library School 1100 E. 57th Street, Chicago, Illinois 60637 ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!kdw1 kdw1@sphinx.UChicago.{EDU,BITNET,MAILNET,CSNET} ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 23:11:05 GMT From: robert@spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? kdw1@sphinx.UUCP (Keith Waclena) writes: >I recently saw a new paperback publication of a collection of >stories by Robert Howard (of Conan fame?) entitled something like >*Tales of the Cthulu Mythos*. I thought this Cthulu stuff was >Lovecraft. Can somebody explain? All of the storys in that book were previously published in the original "Weird Tales". Assumedly by Robert Howard. They are based on the Cthulhu mythos, but they don't all have the verbose flavour of Lovecraft. I recommend giving the book a read. Some of the storys in it have appeared in other CM collections over the years, but not all of them have. Robert Allen, robert@spam.istc.sri.com ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 22:00:17 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!cccdoug@RUTGERS.EDU (Doug Jenner: UNIX guy) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai) writes: > I was wondering whether anyone who have read Lovecraft could >make suggestions or pointers as to where a person should start in >reading his works. There seems to be a lot of short story >collections but I don't want to wade through all of that to get to >the good stories. Any help would be appreciated! Lovecraft cranked out a lot of short stories, most of which have been compiled by August Derleth for Arkham House publishing. By and large, all of the stories are worth reading, but only if you have been reading HPL for while, as most are rather bizarre. To start, the best is "The Call of Cthuthlu" (spelling?) which is the foundation for the Elder Gods and all the other weirdness that goes on in the other stories. "At the Mountains of Madness" is in my opinion, the best of HPL's works, and is also one of the longest, and is a good continuation of the background of the Gods. After reading those, you should be able to tackle just about anything HPL wrote and enjoy it. The following list is my suggest- ions, which are not to be taken as definitive: 1) The Call of Cthuthlu 2) At the Mountains of Madness 3) Dunwich Horror 4) Shadow over Innsmouthe 5) Lurking Fear 6) Nights in the Witch House - plus some other stories not in the Elder Gods motif 7) The Silver Key 8) Beyond the Gates of the Silver Key 9) The Dream-Quest of the Unknown Kadath 10) The Cats of Ulthar Again, however, I find that I like almost everything he wrote. There are some stories which are just too weird to take, but even those are good for reading because they show just how alien HPL's thoughts really were. Douglas Jenner ARPA: ucdavis!deneb!cccdoug@ucbvax.berkeley.edu BITNET: dljenner@ucdavis ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 13:41:06 GMT From: gatech!hubcap!mbrown@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Brown) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? kdw1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Keith Waclena) says: > I recently saw a new paperback publication of a collection of > stories by Robert Howard (of Conan fame?) entitled something like > *Tales of the Cthulu Mythos*. I thought this Cthulu stuff was > Lovecraft. Can somebody explain? Several authors including Robert Howard and August Derleth wrote books set in the Cthulhu Mythos developed by Lovecraft. Derleth and Lovecraft wrote several joint stories as well. Mike Brown Department of Computer Science Clemson University Clemson SC 29634-1906 (803)656-2838 UUCP: ...gatech!hubcap!mbrown Internet: mbrown@hubcap.clemson.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 13:23:51 GMT From: katinsky@swatsun (Matt Katinsky) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? kdw1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Keith Waclena) writes: > A.G. Hirai writes: >> I was wondering whether anyone who have read Lovecraft >> could make suggestions or pointers as to where a person should >> start in reading his works. There seems to be a lot of short >> story collections but I don't want to wade through all of that to >> get to the good stories. Any help would be appreciated! > > I recently saw a new paperback publication of a collection of > stories by Robert Howard (of Conan fame?) entitled something like > *Tales of the Cthulu Mythos*. I thought this Cthulu stuff was > Lovecraft. Can somebody explain? SUMMARY/POSSIBLE SPOILER(?) H.P. Lovecraft wrote a few stories all based on the premise that Earth was inhabited first by these horrific powerful demon-like creatures who were not originally of this world. Cthulu was their high priest/leader. They predated humans however there are evidence of humans worshipping them at one point in history (in the stories, that is :) ). These creatures are intelligent and malevolent, and their periods of wakefulness are tied to the turning of the stars, which explains why we in our age are not disturbed by them (most of us anyway). One of the most common elements is a book called the Necronomicon that keeps popping up in these stories. ITS OVER. YOU CAN COME OUT NOW. Lovecraft wrote a number of these stories, and then several other authors use the same genre, e.g. August Derleth. I believe that Lovecraft knew of and approved of this during his own lifetime, but I'm not sure. I used to have the two volume set called _Tales_of_the_Cthulu_Mythos_ which had stories by several authors including Lovecraft. Perhaps this is what you mean. By the way A.G., I don't know if you are aware, but Cordwainer Bird Library has a number of Lovecraft books (perhaps you saw them and that's why you asked in the first place). If you come find me some time, I can point out my favorites although I do not remember the titles. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 15:01:53 GMT From: seismo!sun!apple!winter@RUTGERS.EDU (Patty Winter) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? BTW, the hardcore Lovecraft fans among us may wish to know that the University of California at Santa Barbara has a stash of HPL books in its closed stacks. I spent a nice afternoon there once reading them. As far as I know, they include stories that haven't shown up in print for a long time. Somewhere I have a list..... Patty Winter (408) 973-2814 Apple Computer, Inc. 20525 Mariani Ave., Cupertino, CA 95014 {decwrl,nsc,sun,dual}!apple!winter ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 23:48:38 GMT From: mhnadel@gryphon.cts.com (Miriam Nadel) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? A.G. Hirai writes: >kdw1@sphinx.UUCP (Keith Waclena) writes: >> I was wondering whether anyone who have read Lovecraft could >> make suggestions or pointers as to where a person should start in >> reading his works. There seems to be a lot of short story >> collections but I don't want to wade through all of that to get to >> the good stories. Any help would be appreciated! Well, I recently reread the Lovecraft I have and some of my favorite stories include: Pickwick's Model Cold Air Dagon The Lurking Fear At the Mountains of Madness I find that virtually all of his stories are very effective for inducing fear=related insomnia and it's hard to go wrong. The major distinction to be made is between the stories associated with the Cthulhu mythos (in the above list only "Dagon" is) and the non-Cthulhu stories. It might be less confusing to start with the non-Cthulhu stories and see if you like them. By the way, both "Pickwick's Model" and "Cold Air" were dramatized for episodes of "Night Gallery" and I first encountered "Pickwick's Model" (and Lovecraft for that matter) in a D.C. comic book some years ago (though I can't recall which one.) >I recently saw a new paperback publication of a collection of >stories by Robert Howard (of Conan fame?) entitled something like >*Tales of the Cthulu Mythos*. I thought this Cthulu stuff was >Lovecraft. Can somebody explain? Lovecraft did indeed originate the Cthulhu stuff and developed the basic mythos. Several other writers have expanded on the mythos since. I have a 2 volume paperback collection of "Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos" and only two of the stories in it are actually by Lovecraft. Miriam Nadel INTERNET: mhnadel@gryphon.CTS.COM UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, ihnp4, nosc}!crash!gryphon!mhnadel UUCP: {philabs, trwrb}!cadovax!gryphon!mhnadel ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 08:58:24 GMT From: webber@brandx.rutgers.edu (Webber) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? kdw1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Keith Waclena) writes: > I recently saw a new paperback publication of a collection of > stories by Robert Howard (of Conan fame?) entitled something like > *Tales of the Cthulu Mythos*. I thought this Cthulu stuff was > Lovecraft. Can somebody explain? The recent book was: Cthulhu: The Mythos and Kindred Horrors by Robert E. Howard (edited by David Drake), Baen Books, 1987. It is a collection of short stories from the early 30's. A good popularization of how Lovecraft interacted with other fantasy writers of the time is Lovecraft: A Biography by L. Sprague De Camp, Ballantine Books, 1975. Recently the Cthulhu related short stories of Brian Lumley were collected in The Compleat Crow, W. Paul Ganley Publisher, 1987. This nicely rounds out the novels: The Transition of Titus Crow, Daw Books, 1975; The Clock of Dreams, Jove/HBJ Books, 1978; Spawn of the Winds, Jove/HBJ Books, 1978; and In the Moons of Borea, Jove/HBJ Books, 1979. Mythos stories written by Robert Block in the 30's and 50's were collected in Mysteries of the Worm - All the Cthulhu Mythos Stories of Robert Bloch, Zebra Books, 1981 (Lin Carter, Editor). Michael Shea wrote a sequel to Lovecraft's The Color Out of Space, called The Color Out of Time, Daw Books, 1984. August Derleth edited a two volume work: H. P. Lovecraft and Others -- Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos, Ballantine, 1969. As mentioned by others, only three (really four) of these are by Lovecraft. `Others' consisted of: Clark Ashton Smith, Robert E. Howard, Frank Belknap Long, August Derleth, Henry Kuttner, J. Vernon Shea, Robert Bloch, J. Ramsey Campbell, Brian Lumley, James Wade, and Colin Wilson. Edward P. Berglund edited: The Disciples of Cthulhu, Daw Books, 1976. The Disciples were Brian Lumley, James Wade, Bob Van Laerhoven, Ramsey Campbell, Walter C. DeBill, Jr., Joseph Payne Brennan, Lin Carter, Eddy C. Bertin, and Fritz Leiber. But, if I recall rightly, the original query was from a person who actually wanted to avoid reading all of the basic texts, so perhaps digressing into derivative works is a step in the wrong direction :-) BOB webber@aramis.rutgers.edu rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!webber ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 13:25:49 GMT From: iws@rayssdb.ray.com (Ihor W. Slabicky) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? I would suggest that you also visit the East Side of Providence, RI (and the mill towns of RI as well) to get a very good feel for what Lovecraft's descriptions really looked like. The East Side is full of old mansions and Victorian houses which overlook the City itself below it. Some of his stories take place there and walking around there, I am glad that most of those horrors were destroyed in his stories, making the area a safe place to walk around at night. I do get a strange feeling though whenever I drive by the Arkwright Curtain Company, off of I-195 in Fall River, MA, the name Arkwright being so associated with Lovecraft's work as a location. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 08:30:00 GMT From: hogge@p.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? The novelette "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward" is probably the tightest things Lovecraft ever wrote, plotwise, and has most of the great horror elements found in his other stories, minus the Cthulhu mythos stuff. "At the Mountains of Madness" is also worthy reading, but you'll probably have to do lots of skimming till the end. For all out weird descriptive fantasy (i.e. no shade of a plot), try tackling "The Dreamquest of Unknown Kadath." One thing to keep in mind while reading Lovecraft. He rarely writes about direct horror; there's always one step removed from what really happened. Narrative style, and the narrators are usually not in the best frame of mind... John ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 15 Jun 87 1044-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #285 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Jun 87 1044-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #285 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 285 Today's Topics: Miscellanous - Star Trek (14 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Jun 87 12:42:21 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: Re: ST:TNG quirk@europa.UUCP writes: >Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM writes: >>At a con a few weeks ago, a friend picked me up a copy of The Next >>Generation Writer/Director's Guide and I thought I'd post some >>info from it. I'd be REAL careful about mentioning you have something that has not been released to the public and is under Paramount copyright. Fans get lots of things like this, but mentioning it on the net is not smart. In my opinion. >>2) We now know what Stardates mean! " A stardate is a five-digit >>number followed by a decimal point and one more digit. Example: >>41254.7 The first two digits of the stardate are always 41. The 4 >>stands for 24th century, the 1 indicates first season. The >>additional three leading digits will progress uneavenly during the >>course of the season from 000 to 999. The digit following the >>decimal point is generally regarded as a day counter." > >I see that thy finally decided to 'standardize' the Stardate >system. Too bad they waited 20+ yeasr to do it. How will they >reconcile SD 8147.3 (From ST-II I believe) with this 'new' system? >What was wrong with the 'random' numbers which had to be refrenced >to the ship's chronometer in order to make sense? ;-) Looks to me >that they're trying to make it too rigid. Besides, We all know how >the Stardate REALLY works. Today's Stardate is 8706.5 (Jun 5, >1987). ;-) This is a method to maintain Stardate consistency for the WRITERS. We can assume stardates mean something different in the Star Trek universe, having nothing to do with the first season. >>3) We now know what Warp's mean! At least we're told, not only >>that Warp 1 is the speed of light, but Warp 6, the maximum >>sustainable speed, is 1 light-year per hour. > >Again they decide to change something for the sake of changing >things. It has been established that Wapr Factor (WF) 1 is the >speed of light in vacuum (c). WF 2 = 8c. WF 3 = 27c. WF (n) = >(n)^3 * c. And I still disagree that WF 6 is the maximum speed! >In *ST-TMP* the big E went to WF 9! I don't think that 78+ yeasr >of 'progress' will make the Warp Drive less powerfull. Yeah, the 1 light yr/hr is inconsistent. But the cubed rule was never established on Star Trek (and the Tech manual, with its 100 starships and dreadnaughts and whatever is not Canon according to GR). Maybe what they call Warp in STTNG is really Transwarp (hows that for an excuse to keep everyone happy. It would even explain the big E going Warp 14.1 under the old system when the new double-nickel is Warp 10. >>Data (rhymes with that-a, the Guide says) is the product of an >>advanced intelligence and a doomed Earth colony. Said >>intelligence distilled the dying colonist's knowledge into this >>android. Data's favorite story is Pinocchio-- he wants nothing >>more than to be a "real boy." > >Corny. What's wrong with another Vulcan? (Maybe Saavik in her >middle years.) Because they've already DONE Vulcans. What do you have against other alien races? Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 21:05:32 GMT From: sam@bu-cs.bu.edu (Shelli Meyers) Subject: Re: Next Generation on ET rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes: >Okay. Does anyone have the Entertainment Tonight (Tuesday) Star >Trek: The Next Generation piece on tape? Did anyone even see it? Sadly enough, I didn't get it on tape, but I did see it. Reactions: * Captain Pickard, or whatever his name is, looks *old*. I am simply not going to fall in lust with him like I did Captain Kirk. * The uniforms were ugly. The looked like the uniforms from ST:TMP. Ugh. * Damn near everybody was white, execpt of course for LaVar Burton. All the extras, everything. Also a NOTABLE lack of aliens. Is this series so low budget that they can't afford some aliens in the crew? * All the women looked "pretty" and "cute" and "feminine"... and exactly *alike*. I would have liked to have seen a Grace Jones-type or a very military woman like Vasquez (sp?) in Aliens. But noooo, they were all boobs and hairdos. Am I optimistic about the show? Well, maybe a little less now, but I know you can't judge a book by its cover. Not a purist, but a not-easily-converted fan of the original. Shelli Meyers Boston University ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 04:20:00 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!bones@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: ST:TNG As far as that Globe article goes, it was complete nonsense. The fan who was quoted at the end of the article as to his meaning of the "Ultimate Computer" show was not even close. Dr. Daystrom was a lunatic and was not trying to perfect an old computer. And the analogy to the new star trek not having a chance to be as good as the old is just as wrong. Why in the world are there Star Trek fans who are upset because it is finally returning to television. There are hardly any science fiction shows on at all, and now we have one made by Gene Roddenberry and it is called Star Trek! We should be happy Star Trek is returning! Just because the original cast is now doing a marvelous job on the films and that group sees no reason to return to TV, why should we have to wait two years to see Star Trek! I am all for this new series and I hope it does well. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 09:15:20 GMT From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner) Subject: Re: ST:TNG rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) quotes quirk@europa.UUCP: >>>Data (rhymes with that-a, the Guide says) is the product of an >>>advanced intelligence and a doomed Earth colony. Said >>>intelligence distilled the dying colonist's knowledge into this >>>android. Data's favorite story is Pinocchio-- he wants nothing >>>more than to be a "real boy." >>Corny. What's wrong with another Vulcan? (Maybe Saavik in her >>middle years.) ...And replies: >Because they've already DONE Vulcans. What do you have against other >alien races? Personally, I have nothing against other alien races, myself. Let's see an Andorian! I don't care if you throw in a Kzin! (I know - wrong universe :-}) I do think that the idea of putting in a Super Strong Android, though, is a bit (as the good Capt. would put it) corny. David Guntner UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 02:15:31 GMT From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU From: (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: ST:TNG I see a lot of postings about the new warp factors. I suggest that people do a little math before complaining. 1 light year/hr = 8766 *c this is almost warp 21 under the old warp factors! Obviously they have changed the definition of warp factor. It's about time! Under the old system, at warp ten (10^3 c) it would take over 8 hours to go 1 light year! (If this is all-out _emergency_ speed, they'll never get anywhere) But with the new warp 6 being 1 ly/hr they can travel a bit more reasonably. Remember, stars average 3-5 ly apart! Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 20:35:20 GMT From: moss!hrcca!jean@RUTGERS.EDU (Jean Airey) Subject: Re: ST:TNG >>At a con a few weeks ago, a friend picked me up a copy of The Next >>Generation Writer/Director's Guide and I thought I'd post some >>info from it. > > I'd be REAL careful about mentioning you have something that has > not been released to the public and is under Paramount copyright. > Fans get lots of things like this, but mentioning it on the net is > not smart. In my opinion. Lincoln Enterprises (The Roddenberry's merchandising arm) was advertising the official "Writer's/Director's Guide" at least a month and a half ago -- If this is what the individual bought, then it's as legal as legal can be. Question: I was curious to see that this was actually being released -- Paramount has been very lax about the policing of 'official' and 'unofficial' ST merchandise (unlike Lucas & SWars -- and the BBC with Doctor Who Merchandise). Is it *just* possible that some creative minds involved with TNG are also looking at/creating merchandising opportunities? Jean Airey US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506 ihnp4!hrcca!jean ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1987 11:11 EDT (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: ST:TNG That's the cast? It almost sounds like an attempt to distill what some network guru thought was good about the original cast and feed it back into new faces. The description of this half-betazoid sounds awfully like certain abilities of Spock's for example (oy, my stomach hurts! Here cap'n, have half a betazoid :)) Sounds like it's becoming more soap than space opera... ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 00:30:38 GMT From: pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: ST:TNG davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner) writes: >rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker): >>Because they've already DONE Vulcans. What do you have against >>other alien races? > >Personally, I have nothing against other alien races, myself. >Let's see an Andorian! I don't care if you throw in a Kzin! (I >know - wrong universe :-}) What do you mean wrong universe???? Don't you remember the episode "The Slaver Weapon" by Larry Niven? he probably decided to add them to his own universe after the ST episode. :-) :-) Stephen Pearl VOICE: (201)932-3465 UUCP: rutgers!topaz.rutgers.edu!pearl ARPA: PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU US MAIL: LPO 12749 CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 87 17:22 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Star Trek Trivia Cc: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates) >in what episode was Chekov given the con? I have searched my >memory banks and have come up blank on that one. "Journey to Babel" towards the end as Kirk collapses -- and while Lt. Uhura sits in the background. Lisa Wahl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 87 09:47 EDT From: "George Barbanis, Heldenprogrammer" From: Subject: ST:TNG communicators >>4) Communicators are part of the uniform's insignia--great way to >>avoid losing them on landing parties. > >Finally! A good idea. Now the aliens will have to strip the >characters in order to take their communication equipment away. >(1/2 ;-)) I predict that the lines "Issue them prisoner clothes, throw them in the dungeons" will become standard in every ST episode. Also, the Enterprise crew will more often than ever dress in local garb before beaming down to a planet. But I agree it's a good idea, although it carries the Walkman concept a bit too far :-). gb ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 16:47:38 GMT From: bryan@druhi.att.com (BryanJT) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia I always assumed that Lt. Uhura was a technical specialist holding the rank of an officer to qualify her as a bridge-crew member (clearances and that sort of thing maybe) but not in the line-of-command. Ensign Chekov, while not fully an officer, is clearly in training for a line assignment and might be permitted to assume command responsibility. It would make Uhura relatively unique on the bridge, although there is the occasional engineering officer who never seems to be given command, either. Sometimes Scotty stands around, watching what they do, but they never get to command. Does that make any sense? John T. Bryan AT&T Information Systems Denver, CO 80234 USENET: ...!ihnp4!druhi!bryan PHONE: (303) 538-5172 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 12:30:40 GMT From: hallett@othello.steinmetz (Hallett) Subject: Re: ST:TNG pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Starbuck) writes: >What do you mean wrong universe???? Don't you remember the episode >"The Slaver Weapon" by Larry Niven? he probably decided to add >them to his own universe after the ST episode. :-) :-) Sorry Steve. The Slaver Weapon was a cartoon version. I liked the cartoons personally, but I cannot consider them technically robust. (Otherwise, Klingons would have shields 8-) <- note the smiley here!) However, I'm all for incorporating the Kzinti into ST:TNG. Good characters. Jeffrey A. Hallett hallett@ge-crd.arpa hallett@desdemona.uucp Software Technology Program General Electric Corporate Research and Development ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 01:28:47 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!unrvax!tahoe!malc@RUTGERS.EDU (Malcolm L. From: Carlock) Subject: Re: ST:TNG quirk@europa.UUCP writes: >they have a stumbling block in their relationship--her husband was >killed under his command and, to some extent, blames Picard. I guess he would! But seriously -- thanks, Gym, for transporting that writer's manual posting over here. Highly interesting. And yes, Dammit, it bugs de hell out of me when things get changed just for the sake of changing them. On the changed warp factors, fr'instance: (I think the following information is based on the "Making of Star Trek" -- but it may be based on some James Blish info. If the latter is true, then the give the remainder of this posting somewhat less weight. I can't really remember where I read it). I was given to understand that the warp factors were powers of 10, i.e. warp 1 is the speed of light times 10^^1 . . . oops. How about the (n - 1)th power of 10, where n is some nonzero number? This would give warp 1 = C * 1, warp 2 = C * 10, warp 3 = C * 100, . . . warp 8 = C * 10^^7 = C * 10,000,000. This would allow the Enterprise, traveling at warp 6, to move from Earth to it's nearest neighbor star system (Alpha Centauri) 4.7 light years away, in a little less than 1/2 hour. This is pretty fast, but you need speed like this to reach the edge of the galaxy, folks. It seems like the Enterprise is usually cruising at warp 3 or 4 anyway. This would give it a travel time of 2 - 20 days from Earth to Alpha Centauri, which seems pretty much in line with the ST universe. I like this explanation a whole lot better than what I saw in that new manual. Thank you. profoundly, malc@tahoe U of N/Reno ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 20:27:24 GMT From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM >>in what episode was Chekov given the conn? I have searched my >>memory banks and have come up blank on that one. >"Journey to Babel" towards the end as Kirk collapses -- and while >Lt. Uhura sits in the background. I am unconvinced. Note that Kirk almost always ascends the Captain's Chair from the starboard side and leaves it the same way. Unsteady, he left the Chair and said, to no one in particular, "take over." According to the chain of command as it seems to be on the Enterprise, the helmsman is the closest thing there is to an OOD, and therefore outranks all other officers during his watch except for the Exec and the Captain. To give the Conn to Chekov would be a serious breach of the chain of command so long as Sulu had the helm. As I do not recall his explicitly naming Chekov, I assumed that he spoke to Chekov to save his strength, not to give him the Conn. Robert A. West Q4071@PUCC US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place Suite A North Brunswick, NJ 08902 VOICE : (201) 821-7055 ...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Jun 87 1018-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #286 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jun 87 1018-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #286 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 286 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Jun 87 18:42:31 GMT From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner) Subject: Re: ST:TNG pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu quotes davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner): >>Personally, I have nothing against other alien races, myself. >>Let's see an Andorian! I don't care if you throw in a Kzin! (I >>know - wrong universe :-}) > >What do you mean wrong universe???? Don't you remember the episode >"The Slaver Weapon" by Larry Niven? he probably decided to add >them to his own universe after the ST episode. :-) :-) Steve, I missed that episode, but I have heard about it from a good friend of mine. I put in the quick disclaimer to avoid being flamed alive by that faction of Trekkies who don't think that the cartoon series (which is where that episode happened) is "real" St David Guntner UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 21:33:16 GMT From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia bryan@druhi.ATT.COM (BryanJT) writes: >I always assumed that Lt. Uhura was a technical specialist holding >the rank of an officer to qualify her as a bridge-crew member >(clearances and that sort of thing maybe) but not in the >line-of-command. Ensign Chekov, while not fully an officer, is >clearly in training ... (Abbreviation note: OOD = Officer of the Deck, JOOD = Junior Officer of the Deck.) Recall that Uhura did take the navigation console in Balance of Terror, which seems to correspond to JOOD in Naval organization. She therefore was the second ranking officer on board ship, excluding the Captain and Exec. I therefore conclude that she was capable of handling the ship, and no more of a specialist than Scotty or DeSalle, who each commanded from time to time. Of course, aboard a real vessel, there should be a real OOD who does not have any console to watch, no controls to handle, and who is totally responsible for anything which happens during his watch. He should either sit in the Captain's chair, or stand next to it. All officers below the Exec should report to him, even if they outrank him. The conning should be done by the JOOD, who may well be an ensign, but who would assume the Deck should anything happen to the OOD, until a relief could be called. Of course, both pilots, with their bigger budgets, have someone standing watch on the bridge. Since Sulu seems to be in command if Kirk and Spock are both off the bridge, I assume he is OOD. (Of course, in an emergency he would become quickly overloaded while at the controls.) Since the Navigation Console is next in position and importance, I assume the one who takes it is JOOD. Robert A. West Q4071@PUCC US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place Suite A North Brunswick NJ 08902 VOICE : (201) 821-7055 ...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 87 05:54:39 GMT From: nathan@eddie.mit.edu (Nathan Glasser) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia Q4071@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes: >Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM writes: >>>in what episode was Chekov given the conn? >>"Journey to Babel" towards the end as Kirk collapses -- and while >>Lt. Uhura sits in the background. >I am unconvinced. Note that Kirk almost always ascends the >Captain's Chair from the starboard side and leaves it the same way. >Unsteady, he left the Chair and said, to no one in particular, >"take over." According Not true. I checked my tape, and Kirk says "Mr. Chekov, take over." Nathan Glasser nathan@mit-eddie.uucp (usenet) nathan@xx.lcs.mit.edu (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 87 05:37:58 GMT From: cd0v+@andrew.cmu.edu (Chris Durham) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia Uhura DID take command from a senior officer in the animated episode "The Lorelei Syndrome". If I remember correctly , she took it on the advice/approval of McCoy, but I'm not sure. All the men were being affected by the women on the planet so Uhura took command. (I forget from whom, I would guess it was Scotty). Can someone clear us up on this? Chris Durham Arpa: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu BitNet: cd0v@cmuccvma usenet: ...!{seismo, harvard}!andrew.cmu.edu!cd0v ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 21:01:05 GMT From: towers@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Stephen Towers) Subject: Re: ST:TNG From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM >3) We now know what Warp's mean! At least we're told, not only >that Warp 1 is the speed of light, but Warp 6, the maximum >sustainable speed, is 1 light-year per hour. Interesting, considering that the "trans-warp drive" ship Excelsior of STIII was supposed to be so much faster than the Enterprise that it would have been forced to overtake, turn round and come back in order to catch it. Why does the new Enterprise not have trans-warp drive? (Perhaps Scotty's sabotage of the Excelsior has had more far reaching consequences than anyone else had suspected :-)) Seriously though, from reading the net reports on this subject I have been forced to conclude that we must expect a lot of inconsistencies with both the original series and the films. Still, I will wait (impatiently) to see the results before I make final judgement. The worst bit is going to be trying not to read the comments on the net about the pilot between the time it comes out and the time it is shown over here :-) Tony Towers Department of Computer Science Reading University. JANET : towers@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 87 05:41:04 GMT From: timothyb@crash.cts.com (Timothy Burleson) Subject: Re: ST:TNG Now, I heard that there will be a Klingon as a member of the crew in TNG. (From Magel Barrett.) She said that Gene always hated the idea of having an alien race that was totally evil. Also, he does not want any confrontations with the Klingon and other 'old' races from ST. Can anyone confirm that date for the premire of TNG? I think I heard Oct 3 mentioned, but I'm not sure. Timothy B. Burleson {akgua,hplabs!hp-sdd,sdcsvax}!crash!pnet01!timothyb ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 87 18:10:21 GMT From: 6089031@pucc.princeton.edu (Shantanu Saha) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia nathan@eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) writes: >Q4071@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes: >>Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM writes: >>>>in what episode was Chekov given the conn? >>>"Journey to Babel" towards the end as Kirk collapses -- and while >>>Lt. Uhura sits in the background. >>I am unconvinced. Note that Kirk almost always ascends the >>Captain's Chair from the starboard side and leaves it the same >>way. Unsteady, he left the Chair and said, to no one in >>particular, "take over." According >Not true. I checked my tape, and Kirk says "Mr. Chekov, take over." I stand corrected. In that event, given the apparent chain of command, to give the conn to Chekov passed over not only Uhura, but Sulu as well. We can explain passing over Uhura by agreeing that Star Fleet regulations sexistly prohibited giving the Conn to a woman, but we still have to explain passing over Sulu. He was on the bridge; as helmsman he is the closest thing to an OOD the Enterprise has; by the "normal" chain of command, he should have the conn. The only explanations I can see are: 1. Chekov was due for a "training" stint as OOD; 2. Kirk intended that Mr. Scott be called to the bridge, and was ordering Mr. Chekov to do so; 3. Kirk (read the writer) goofed; 4. My explanation applies, except that Kirk named the officer at whom he was looking out of long habit. As Kirk had ordered Mr. Scott called just before the attack began, I vote for #2. Of course, he could as easily have said "Lt. Uhura, call Mr. Scott," or even "Lt. Uhura, take over," but once we explain (within the ST universe) why Sulu was not addressed, the same arguments can be used to explain Uhura's being passed over. Of course, if we address the question of why were things scripted in certain ways, then we leave all such considerations behind. I do not wish Star Fleet to be any more racist or sexist than I can avoid making it, because I (among other things) the producers were (I think) trying to be open-minded. Recall that this WAS 1965-8. This is the same era which saw the Smothers Brothers tossed off the air by the censors. There are some things which just wouldn't play in Peoria. Robert A. West Q4071@PUCC US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place Suite A North Brunswick, NJ 08902 VOICE : (201) 821-7055 ...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 00:28:55 GMT From: IRWIN@pucc.princeton.edu (Irwin Tillman) Subject: Re: ST:TNG towers@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Stephen Towers) writes: >Why does the new Enterprise not have trans-warp drive? (Perhaps >Scotty's sabotage of the Excelsior has had more far reaching >consequences than anyone else had suspected :-)) If the Excelsior was undergoing testing at the time of ST3, perhaps it failed. I don't think Scotty's sabotage had any important consequences (other than improving security), but maybe there is some flaw inherent in transwarp technology that only became clear in the full-scale test. Irwin Tillman Princeton University BITNET: IRWIN@PUCC UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,cbosgd}!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!IRWIN ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 87 18:15:25 GMT From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia bryan@druhi.ATT.COM (BryanJT) writes: >I always assumed that Lt. Uhura was a technical specialist holding >the rank of an officer to qualify her as a bridge-crew member >(clearances and that sort of thing maybe) but not in the >line-of-command. Ensign Chekov, while not fully an officer, is >clearly in training for a line assignment and might be permitted to >assume command responsibility. It would make Uhura relatively >unique on the bridge, although there is the occasional engineering >officer who never seems to be given command, either. Sometimes >Scotty stands around, watching what they do, but they never get to >command. > >Does that make any sense? Not quite true. There were a number of episodes where Scotty was given command of the ship (the episode where Kirk and a landing party were stuck on the planet which was sort of like ancient Rome - I forget the name - and "The Gamesters of Triskellian" (sp?), just to name two). Also, Star Fleet has, basically, three classifications of officers - Engineering, Sciences, and Command. Spock and Uhura are in Sciences (of course, you can validate Spock's taking command due to his also being First Officer), Checkov & Sulu (and Kirk, of course! :-)) are Command, and Scotty, of course, is Engineering. Probably the reason that Scotty is given command at times is because he is, after Kirk and Spock, the most senior officer on board the Enterprise. David Guntner UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 00:59:13 GMT From: drp@lll-lcc.arpa (David Preston) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner) writes: >of course! :-)) are Command, and Scotty, of course, is Engineering. >Probably the reason that Scotty is given command at times is >because he is, after Kirk and Spock, the most senior officer on >board the Enterprise. I thought McCoy was the most senior officer after K&S; in Menagerie, Spock surrendered to McCoy, after explaining to him that he had committed mutiny, and that it was up to McCoy to arrest him as the most senior officer. Of course, McCoy was not in a command position(I'm a DOCTOR not a Starship Captain :-) david ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 05:54:53 GMT From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates) Subject: ST:TNG Warp Drive IRWIN@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Irwin Tillman) writes: >towers@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Stephen Towers) writes: >>Why does the new Enterprise not have trans-warp drive? (Perhaps >>Scotty's sabotage of the Excelsior has had more far reaching >>consequences than anyone else had suspected :-)) > >If the Excelsior was undergoing testing at the time of ST3, perhaps >it failed. I don't think Scotty's sabotage had any important >consequences (other than improving security), but maybe there is >some flaw inherent in transwarp technology that only became clear >in the full-scale test. This is, of course, the official explanation, as has previously been discussed on the net. The new official explanation of Warp factors has also caused some questions: warp n has long been established as (n**3)c, but now they tell us that warp 6 is about 8760c. Both problems can be solved if we say that the new Enterprise DOES have trans-warp speed, but that in common parlance the "trans-" has been dropped, and the old warp factors are now called "para-warp", or some such notation. Under this (totally unofficial) scheme, (trans-)warp 6 is about (para-)warp 20.6! (trans-)warp factors could then be exponential, say (trans-)warp n = (2*pi)**(n-1). This would give the following table: (trans-)warp 1 = 1 c = 1 light year/year, 2 = 6.28 c = 1 light year/58 days, 3 = 39.5 c = 1 light year/9.25 days, 4 = 248.1 c = 1 light year/1.47 days, 5 = 1558.6 c = 1 light year/5.62 hours, 6 = 9792.6 c = 1 light year/53.67 minutes. This is close enough for government work, and has the advantage of including a nice mathematical constant (pi) which can give us some pseudo-scientific explanations of how warp drive works. We can do almost as well using e, I suppose, or the fourth root of 1/alpha,... Robert A. West Q4071@PUCC US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place Suite A North Brunswick, NJ 08902 VOICE : (201) 821-7055 ...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 14:25:41 GMT From: bryan@druhi.att.com (BryanJT) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner) writes: > bryan@druhi.ATT.COM (BryanJT) writes: >>... It would make Uhura relatively unique on the bridge, although >>there is the occasional engineering officer who never seems to be >>given command, either. Sometimes Scotty stands around, watching >>what they do, but they never get to command. > > Not quite true. There were a number of episodes where Scotty was > given command of the ship (the episode where Kirk and a landing > party were stuck on the planet which was sort of like ancient Rome > - I forget the name - and "The Gamesters of Triskellian" (sp?), > just to name two). I just wasn't being clear, I guess. I know Scotty sometimes commands, but never the other occasional engineering types who sit at the engineering console. Notice, too, that Uhura wears red, which seems to be the Engineering color, not Science (Science is blue, Command is that yucky gold color). I tend to agree with your analysis that there are basically three specialties: Command, Engineering, and Science, and I would expect top command in space to typically bypass Sciences and Engineering in favor of Command personnel. On the other hand, the senior-most members of other groups (Chief Engineer, Chief Science Officer) are probably more command-oriented than technical specialists. Not having any Navy experience to fall back on, I have to rely on common sense instead :). Back in my youth when I was designing interstellar spacecraft, I used some such organization of personnel (usually with more departments, though). Not that that's terribly relevant. John T. Bryan AT&T Information Systems Denver, CO 80234 USENET: ...!ihnp4!druhi!bryan PHONE: (303) 538-5172 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Jun 87 1035-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #287 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jun 87 1035-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #287 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 287 Today's Topics: Books - Codex Seraphinianus (2 msgs) & Danny Dunn (2 msgs) & Doc Savage & Anthology on Devils & Expanding Short Stories & Book Request Answers (2 msgs) & Books in Libraries & Book Requests (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Jun 87 12:47:40 cdt From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Cc: norris@STRIPE.SRI.COM Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus Reviews My thanks to Aline Baeck for locating the references to reviews of the Codex Seraphinianus! I just spent some time at the St. Louis Public Library looking them up, and thought I'd pass the word. Here are the citations she provided, along with comments I noted when reading the reviews. Notice that all of these that I found are very short, one paragraph or so in length. They are mostly in the nature of blurbs of praise or brief descriptions, rather than formal reviews. They could all have been summed up as "Gee whiz -- what a weird strange book! How neat!"-- not really terribly valuable from a critical standpoint... (They were all in microfilm form, by the way.) > 1) Esquire Magazine, V 102 p260, Nov. 1984 Describes the CS as the "oddest book of the year" and as an "untranslatable" description of a "parallel universe". > 2) NYT Book Review, V 89 p20, Feb. 12, 1984 Mentioned in an earlier posting of mine, this is a brief description with a small reproduction of one of the book's pictures. > 3) Los Angeles Times Book Review, p4, Dec. 18, 1983 Unfortunately, this one I can't find; the library gets this paper but doesn't keep back issues on microfilm. > 4) Choice, V21 p696, Jan. 1984 This is actually a periodical named "Choice Books for College Libraries" or something like that. Describes the CS as "delightful". > 5) Atlantic Monthly, V 253 p105, Feb. 1984 Refers to the CS as "completely alien". > 6) Publishers Weekly, V224 p62, Oct. 28, 1983. Describes the CS as "haunting and a source of endless stimulation". If anyone happens to locate the LA Times review, let me know if that is just another one of these same sort of blurbs. (I'm still waiting for the book version of "Metamagical Themas" to return to the library shelf so I can read the reference to CS therein.) Regards, Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 13:17:00 GMT From: webb.applicon!webb@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: CODEX SERAPHINIANUS There was some discussion of the CODEX SERAPHINIANUS, by Luigi Serafini, here some weeks ago. I have recently come across the address of Publishers Central Bureau, from where it can be ordered, and the order number of the book itself. Publishers Central Bureau Dept 496 One Champion Avenue Avenel, New Jersey 07001-2301 CODEX SERAPHINIANUS Item number: 475146 For those who did not see this discussion, the book is a large format encyclopedia of an alien culture, lavishly illustrated, and entirely written in an alien tounge, using an alphabet that is not of this earth. I do not know if tranlations exist; but for those interested in linguistic puzzles or cryptography, this book might be worth investigating. I have no affiliation with PCB, other than being an occassional customer. Peter Webb {allegra|decvax|harvard|yale|mit-eddie|mirror}!ima!applicon!webb ...!ulowell!applicon!webb ...!raybed2!applicon!webb ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 02:29:52 GMT From: ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster) Subject: Re: Danny Dunn series blackje%sungod.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa writes: >Does anyone remember the author's name, and/or have >a list of books (etc) This is from one of my old copies: The co-authors are Jay Williams & Raymond Abrashkin. The books listed at the front of this, probably a partial list: (not in order unless by accident) Danny Dunn & the Antigravity Paint Danny Dunn & the Homework Machine Danny Dunn & the Smallifying Machine Danny Dunn On a Desert Island Ed Ahrenhoerster ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 06:32:00 GMT From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Danny Dunn series From: blackje%sungod.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa > Does anyone remember the author's name, and/or have a list of the > books in the series? (do you suppose they are still in print?) Back in 1979, Pocket/Archway released 15 Danny Dunn books (the whole series, as far as I know) in paperback. I don't think they are still in print, but they shouldn't be that hard to track down. Anyways, the authors were Jay Williams and Raymond Abrashkin. The titles were as follows (the number in brackets is the series number given in the Archway set, which obviously was out of order): DANNY DUNN AND THE ANTI-GRAVITY PAINT (1956) [ 7] DANNY DUNN ON A DESERT ISLAND (1957) [15] DANNY DUNN AND THE HOMEWORK MACHINE (1958) [ 5] DANNY DUNN AND THE WEATHER MACHINE (1959) [10] DANNY DUNN ON THE OCEAN FLOOR (1960) [ 9] DANNY DUNN AND THE FOSSIL CAVE (1961) [11] DANNY DUNN AND THE HEAT RAY (1962) [14] DANNY DUNN, TIME TRAVELLER (1963) [ 8] DANNY DUNN AND THE AUTOMATIC HOUSE (1965) [13] DANNY DUNN AND THE VOICE FROM SPACE (1967) [12] DANNY DUNN AND THE SMALLIFYING MACHINE (1969) [ 1] DANNY DUNN AND THE SWAMP MONSTER (1971) [ 6] DANNY DUNN, INVISIBLE BOY (1974) [ 2] DANNY DUNN, SCIENTIFIC DETECTIVE (1975) [ 3] DANNY DUNN AND THE UNIVERSAL GLUE (1977) [ 4] --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 23:44:17 GMT From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Doc Savage From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Dan Parmenter) > Zelazny isn't the only person to use Doc Savage as a 'guest star' > in a story. In Dave Stevens' stupendously fabulous 'Rocketeer' > comic book series 'The Rocketeer'...Doc Savage...makes a brief > appearance, along with Monk Mayfair and another of Doc's cronies. Doc Savage also appeared in a short story by Philip Jose Farmer entitled "After King Kong Fell" (OMEGA, 1973, ed. by Roger Elwood). And by the way, the other "crony" was Ham Brooks. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 03:57:25 GMT From: im4u!ut-sally!utastro!howard@RUTGERS.EDU (The Duck) Subject: Some comments on *Devils*, by Asimov, Greenberg, & Waugh Isaac Asimov's Magical Worlds of Fantasy 8: Devils, edited by Isaac Asimov, Martin H. Greenberg, and Charles Waugh. Signet, June 1987. 351 pp. Martin Harry Greenberg, claims the author blurb, is "the King of the Anthologists". This is a tough proposition to refute. Associated (for marketing purposes, I guess) with one or another famous author, he has edited over 150 anthologies. Only God and Jerry Boyajian know if that is indeed a record. (Surely not even Groff Conklin topped this total - and we'll save consideration of Roger Elwood for another time.) He has three series I know of going with the Good Doctor: the annual bests of bygone years, the Magical Worlds of Fantasy, and the Wonderful Worlds of Science Fiction (though the latest WWSF is edited by Silverberg, Greenberg, and Waugh, no doubt in an effort to confuse me). The latest entry in the Fantasy series is number 8: Devils. Now, this is a topic that could strain even MHG's sure hand for combining old favorites with forgotten gems. The deal-with-the-Devil story is perhaps the weariest cliche in the genre, and most of the entries here are indeed DWTD stories. They do cover the Infernal Ground, though, stretching from Tolstoy's "The Tale of Ivan the Fool" through an original (I think) story by Rick Hautala, "Colt .24", in which a clever idea makes up for some slapdash writing. The longest piece in the book is one of Cornell Woolrich's slightly perverse melodramas, "I'm Dangerous Tonight". There are some famous works (famous to me, that's who): Fredric Brown's "The Rustle of Wings", Robert Bloch's "The Hell-Bound Train", Charles Beaumont's "The Howling Man" (basis for the Twilight Zone episode), Stephen Vincent Benet's "The Devil and Daniel Webster", and, for a little twist, Arthur C. Clarke's "Guardian Angel". The book winds up with Theodore Sturgeon's "Dazed", which, in fine Sturgeonesque style, stands the DWTD theme on its head while making a sharp point, to boot. There are eighteen stories in all, along with a short preface by the Good Doctor (otherwise unrepresented in the book). A good many of them were written in or about the fifties, confirming a suspicion I have long held that the decade was a prime time for you-know-what stories. Some of the authors may not be Big Names now, but they once were. Ray Russell and Robert F. Young are represented, as are Theodore Cogswell with a late story called "Deal With the D.E.V.I.L." ("Data Evaluation Vehicle for International Logistics, the new supercomputer in the basement of the Pentagon") and Jerome Bixby (of "It's a Good Life"/TZ fame) with a very nice piece called "Trace". All in all, a satisfying book. If you haven't overdosed on Devil's, er, tales lately, I think you'll find something to entertain you here (though it might not be Ruth Sawyer's "The Shepherds", an instance in which my taste and the editors' seriously diverged). Be warned, though. The book is incomplete. It does not contain Fritz Leiber's "Gonna Roll the Bones". Ah, well. Howard Coleman ut-sally!utastro!howard U. Texas Astronomy Dept. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 06:00:49 GMT From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Expanded short stories? From: cc5.bbn.com!levin > I read...A. E. van Vogt's "The Weapon Shops" and was amazed years > later to find a novel _The Weapon Shops of Isher_ containing the > entire short story in several chapters throughout the novel.... I > also read a short story called "The Rull", and a story > anthologized in several places, "The Sound" (I think). They both > later turned up as chapeters in a rather episodic novel called > _The War Against the Rull_. In this case it seems clear the novel > was built out of existing pieces. > > I would be interested in knowing more about the sequence and > history of the above stories, and of other examples of this sort > of thing (I already know about the Foundation trilogy). This isn't really all that uncommon. Often times, it's easier for a writer (especially a new writer) to break into print with a short story or novelette, so they end up writing a series of such, which they later cobble together into a novel. Other examples off the top of my head: A.E. van Vogt: THE VOYAGE OF THE SPACE BEAGLE Joe Haldeman: THE FOREVER WAR Poul Anderson: THE STAR FOX Poul Anderson: OPERATION CHAOS Talbot Mundy: TROS OF SAMOTHRACE Gordon Dickson: TIMESTORM Orson Card: CAPITOL Chris Anvil: STRANGERS IN PARADISE Anne McCaffrey: DRAGONFLIGHT If you can find a copy of Peter Nicholls' THE SCIENCE FICTION ENCYCLOPEDIA, take a look at random entries and try to find the term "fix-up" (which is what he calls such books). You'll find quite a few. It's also been quite popular for writers to take a single novelette and expand it into a novel. In almost every case (I can't think of any exceptions), the original, shorter version is better. In some of those cases, the shorter version is really good, and the novel sucks galactic moose. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 19:58:36 GMT From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland) Subject: Re: Book Author/Title Request >...looking for Title and Author...Earth agent sent to another >planet...mind control...under a powerful protector (a 40?)... The book is The Mind Traders by J.Hunter Holly. It may be out of print. I have it in my library, and it is rather old. I don't think J.Hunter Holly did much else. pyramid!pyrtech!nancym ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 20:25:14 GMT From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland) Subject: Re: Book request... >...the "BEST" fantasy stories to read... I've always loved Andre Norton's Witch World series. There are about 13 or 14 books in the series, starting with Witch World. pyramid!pyrtech!nancym ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 05:34:11 GMT From: ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (ROBERT LEONE) Subject: Re: Book request... When searching for rare, old, out-of-print books, try your local libraries, especially the really old ones. There's something about Lord Dunsany and James Branch Cabell, who started writing (like Eric Rucker Eddison) in pre-Tolkien days, that makes their books end up in fair numbers in public libraries. Perhaps its because fantasy writers were take rather more seriously in those days. Cabell's Jurgen laid down the groundwork for Henry Miller's sex-filled work. Dunsany was a master at putting the essence of mortality and morality on a page and a half. Maybe the writers were taken more seriously by readers and library purchasing comittees... Heck, I don't know. While you're in the library (and yes, this is inappropriate but it's fun) try looking up Horace Walpole's book on RICHARD III (the guy who's said to have killed his nephews to become King of England in 1483). Walpole called Sir Saint Thomas More, writer of Utopia, a prostitute, and got away with it. Love that man.... Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 87 00:06 EST From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: YET ANOTHER BOOK REQUEST... I've been asked to post a book request for an author with the unlikely name of Corydon Throsp who has written a book called "Entrophy Pump." The only reference found so far was in a book on field armour. *Any* help will be much appreciated... R. Allen Jervis C78KCK@IRISHMVS ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 09:38:25 EDT From: WCUTECB Subject: T&A (Title & Author!) Request... Sorry, had to do it... Okay, the book I remember dealt with this guy who was learning meditation to help him deal with stress. He kept getting more and more advanced at it, getting to higher planes of awareness. He was forgetful, though, and used his (pilotless) stove. B O O M ! House and body blown away. His consciousness, however, is stuck on what I remeber being the Astral Plane. I forget what happens, except he decides to play around withthe Astral Fiber or something and creates this planet. He populates it with critters, cave people, and one ageless, disease-immune super man, which he inhabits to "play" in the world. He gets stuck, and has to spend his undying days on the planet, and basically travels around getting into trouble as the world develops and advances. Any ideas? I read it around 1981, and the book was -- consumed in a house fire! Bruce Onder WCUTECB@IUP.BITNET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Jun 87 1103-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #288 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jun 87 1103-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #288 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 288 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - First SF (16 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Jun 87 11:00:27 GMT From: ee4shb@ux63.bath.ac.uk (Bisson) Subject: First SF... Recent postings have asked "how did you get to read SF?". For the edification of all you out there, I came into the field after having read the Doctor Dolittle books by Hugh Lofting. These are about a vet who learns to talk to animals (the first one was made into a dire musical film starring Rex Harrison!). One of these novels is set on the moon, which is home to giant insects... the idea was wonderful, and it hooked the six year old me onto space, and finally into the field. I believe the first true SF I read was _The Urmal in Space_ ,in which a living fossil visits a counter earth... Simon Bisson ee4shb@uk.ac.bath.ux63 ------------------------------ Date: 03-Jun-1987 1218 From: white%3d.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Randy White 296-6674 LMO4/H4 G4) Subject: Re: My First SF... I wasn't going to respond to this but what the heck. My first exposure before I really knew what SF was, back then SciFi was an acceptable term, "Tom Swift JR." I have seen a number of other readers mention Tom Swift, but I believe you really mean Tom Swift Jr. by Brian Appleton III, Tom Swift existed many years previous written by I believe Brian Appleton JR. in the thirties my father read these and I have since happened across a couple of these in good condition at a Flea Market; Anyways Tom Swift stories were indeed pure adventure/mystery stories whilst Tom Swift JR. were the Hardy Boys in space/the future. Just wanted to clarify ;). Anyways, I didn't read too much though I loved the SciFi movies and had a fascination with robots. In Freshman high school I was introduced to "Pebble in the Sky, by Asimov", "Artery of Fire, by ???(it was a while ago...)" and the Lord of the Rings by Tolkien, I've been reading about 75% SF ever since, the rest are mainly Tech Manuals (not quite as exciting, but necessary :). I meant to include Fantasy in that 75% though it is predominantly SF. Randy White Digital Equipment Corporation Marlboro, MA ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 18:59:53 GMT From: rickheit@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu Subject: Re: First Science Fiction I've been looking over everyone's list of first science-fiction and fantasy, and I'm honestly surprised. Am I the only one who started off with Alice in Wonderland and Alice Through the Looking-glass? I read these back when I was five years old, and I still have that copy, as a matter of fact. I still re-read it regularly, it's still one of my favorite stories. Actually, I shouldn't be surprised..I seem to recall a teacher in high school bringing up the subject, and myself being one of the only four people in the class who had actually read it. >sigh< As for science fiction, I'm not sure. My father had a big collection of SF anthologies that I went through piecewise, then into the novels..then I started buying my own..Star Trek and old movies on TV. (Wow. I wasted a lot of time as a kid, didn't I :) Fantasy I remember, besides Alice & Co., started in fourth grade (natch) when a teacher read 'The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe' at us. I read the rest of the series quickly enough, and next thing I knew, Rankin-Bass had 'The Hobbit' animated and on TV. So I read that, followed by Lord of the Rings (yes, I read LOTR in fifth grade. Still have my copy of that...) Then my older brother's Conan books..I seem to remember some Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser thrown in there.. Gee, remembering all this..SF is like a drug. I got hooked, and now I can't go a week without reading a trashy barbarian novel or the latest _Analog_..I read Chuq's Otherrealms every month (every other month, now)..I watch Dr. Who regularly..I play D&D and Paranoia..and I even >choke< post to sf-lovers! Is there no cure? Is there no hope? No? Oh, well. D'jah read Zelazny's latest...? Erich Rickheit UUCP: ...!ulowell!hawk!rickheit USnail: 85 Gershom Ave, #2 Lowell, MA 01854 617-453-1753 ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 18:33:12 GMT From: gatech!sdcsvax!man!wolf!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Wisner) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction My first exposure to science fiction came when I was in seventh grade. A friend of mine had checked out a Terry Carr anthology from the school library and told me to read it. I did so. Soon after I read the "tripod' books -- I can't remember the names, except that one was "The White Mountains," and I can't remember the author.. but between the two I became hooked. Still am. Bill Wisner ..{sdcsvax,ihnp4}!jack!wolf!billw ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 87 23:46:53 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!msb@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: First SF (and a story request, sort of) I remember at a very early age being sent a copy of one of the "boy's magazines" published in England. There was a story, I don't remember the details, something about scientists in Antarctica I think. At one point there came the following line of explanation-disguised- as-dialogue from one of the adults in the story to his son: "It was the great advances in miniaturization in the sixties and seventies that made possible the computer you wear behind your ear." I wish I knew when I had read it. I was born in 1955 but was reading at a prodigiously early age (so to speak); it could have been about 1962. Anyway, I kept that line in mind through the intervening years, and darned if the author's prediction wasn't true! [Well, almost. The computer in the story had a database that you surely could not fit behind your ear even in 1987. Now, in another 5-10 years...] If anyone actually remembers this story, and can quell or confirm the nagging voice that says "Are you sure it didn't say seventies and eighties?", I'd like to hear about it. By mail, of course. Mark Brader {decvax|ihnp4|watmath}!utzoo!sq!msb {hplabs|lll-crg}!seismo!mnetor!utzoo!sq!msb decwrl!utcsri!sq!msb ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 87 00:22:00 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Re: First Science Fiction I grew up on Dr. Seuss and Nancy Drew. Probably in fifth or sixth grade I read Bradbury's "The Foghorn" and "The Pedestrian" and an excerpt from *Dandelion Wine*. My freshman year in high school I ran across John Collier's "Lady on the Grey". (To this day Bradbury and Collier are two of my favorite authors.) But I didn't know where these stories came from or how to find more of them. Then someone deliberately loaned me a copy of Asimov's *The End of Eternity* my freshman or sophomore year of high school. He and a friend then proceeded to supply me with such things as *Dune* and *Fahrenheit 451* and more Asimov as fast as I could read them until I got a library card and started going to used book sales. My first Heinleins were *Assignment in Eternity* and *Revolt in 2100*; I've always liked Future History better than the Foundation n-ology. ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 87 06:23:36 GMT From: hollombe@ttidca.tti.com Subject: Re: My First SF... That was so long ago ... I can barely remember. A few titles come to mind: Miss Pickerell and the Rocket Ship (and others in the series) The Shy Stegasaurus of Cricket Creek Heinlein's juveniles (Red Planet stands out in my mind) What little else I could find in my grammar school's library (titles escape me )-: ) Everything I could find in the local public library. Somehow I missed the Tom Swift books. To this day, the smell of old library bindings is instant nostalgia. I'd check them out ten at a time on my mother's card, read almost constantly for two weeks and renew any I hadn't finished yet. Wore out countless batteries reading under the covers in bed at night. Spent my entire allowance ($1.00/week) on paperbacks at the drug store at $.35. I've actally got a few books with $.25 original prices. Those were the days ... Jerry Hollombe hollombe@TTI.COM Citicorp(+)TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 {csun|philabs|psivax|trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe (213) 450-9111, x2483 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 87 22:59:14 EDT From: ted@braggvax.arpa Subject: Re: First SF On the subject of early experiences with SF, one of my favorite early finds was the first (basically) SF anthology _Adventures in Time and Space_. I mention it now, because Publishers Central Bureau is selling the trade paperback (all 997 pages of it) for the grand sum of $1.98. This one's a must have folks, especially at that price. Ted Nolan ted@braggvax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 87 10:55:51 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey Subject: First SF I started out with the usual kiddie books--Space Cat, Miss Pickerel Goes to Mars (etc.), Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine (etc.), Kipling's Puck of Pook's Hill, and, of course, The Shy Stegasaurus of Cricket Creek. When I was about 7, and had read through all the science books (I suspect that most of the people reading this read the same juvie dinosaur books I did) in the children's section of our public library (my first intro to Asimov was as a non-fiction writer [The Double Planet]), I got permission (I had to get a signed note from my parents to be kept on file at the library!) to check out books in the regular section. Soon after, I noticed the SF shelf (and it was *one* shelf at that branch), and read some of the Best of F & SF collections. When I was 8, I read my first not-for-kids SF novel, The Space Plague by Harry Harrison. I spent most of my early SF-reading days reading short story collections like the Best of Galaxy and the Best of F&SF series, but the next novels I remember reading were Sibyl Sue Blue, which I was a little too young for (:-)), and then The Revolving Boy. By then I was hooked. I was 9 or 10 when I read the Narnia books; I didn't read the Perelandra, LOTR, or Lensmen series until I was 14, but by that time I had read all of Asimov (SF and non-SF) that I could lay my hands on. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 87 10:23 CST From: Subject: FIRST SF I have not contributed to SF-Lovers before, though I have read it for some time. I wanted to mention some of the things that got me started as a reader of SF. I remember some of those Scholastic Book Club books in grade school and Junior High school: _Man of Many Minds_, in which the hero can project his mind into many kinds of animals, so he can use birds to land on the window sill and overhear conversations, or use mice to crawl under doors and explore buildings. I don't remember the author, but I have seen it on a used bookshelf recently. _Miss Pickerel Goes to Mars_, and others in the Miss Pickerel series: again, I forget the author, though I may still have one of these around somewhere. My mother read the entire Oz series to us when my brothers and I were quite young. Also the "Just So Stories", by Kipling. In Junior High school I remember reading Jules Verne: _20,000 Leagues Under the Sea_, _The Mysterious Island_, and _Master of the World_. I was off SF during college, though I do remember taking a couple weeks off to read _Lord of the Rings_. After college, in the late 60's, I dove back into it, spent a few years reading SF exclusively and getting into Fandom. I prefer "real" science fiction with some science in it, and I can only read one or two books of the "medieval and magic" brand of fantasy before I burn out and must read something entirely different. Jerry Stearns Academic Computing Services University of Minnesota Bitnet: CORDWAINER@UMNACVX ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 11:49:57 EDT From: Louis Steinberg Subject: First (actually: early) SF My first Science Fiction is lost in the mists of time, but I do vaguely remember one book that must have been way back there. Unfortunately I don't remember the title, but it involved a kid who had a friend who was an alien of a species called "Martinians". I think the alien had anti-gravity shoes or some such, and the adults never realized that the alien was an alien rather than just another kid. In fact, there may have been 2 or 3 books in this series. Anyone remember these? ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 19:26:11 GMT From: seismo!uunet!ccicpg!cracraft@RUTGERS.EDU (Stuart Cracraft) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction "The Runaway Robot", by Lester del Rey (though Ghost-written by someone else). After that came "The White Mountains Trilogy" by John Christopher. Also, "S is for Space" by Bradbury and "Nine Tomorrows" by Asimov. "Foundation Trilogy" followed shortly thereafter. All-time favorites: Varley's "Persistence of Vision", Ellison's "Deathbird Stories", Silverberg's "Dying Inside". Sadly, SF has worn somewhat thin on me over the years. Authors and SF books no longer seem to hold my interest as much... Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 19:11:25 GMT From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland) Subject: Re: First SF Story The Star Child Trilogy was writter by Fred Pohl & Williamson. At the moment there are 8 Pern books. Dragonflight, Dragonquest, The White Dragon, Dragon Drums, Dragon Song, Dragon Singer, Moretta Dragon Lady of Pern, and the newest, Norelka's Story. pyramid!pyrtech!nancym ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 19:31:37 GMT From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction Have you tried second hand and recycle book stores? They usually have copies of that one, as it was (is) a great book. Also flea markets here sometimes have good sized collections of paperback SF. If you still have trouble finding it, I wouldn't mind looking here for you. I spend a lot of time at second hand book stores and flea markets in order to keep up with my insatiable reading appetite. I have that book in my library, and have reread it more than once. Have you read The Stars, Like Dust by Isaac Asimov? That's another one I like from about the same period, I think. pyramid!pyrtech!nancym ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 13:01:12 GMT From: eric@cfi.com (eric) Subject: Re: FIRST SF The very first: "You Will Go to the Moon" - A children's book (ca. 1960) showing on the cover a nice little boy (like me) watching a rocket take off towards the moon from his bedroom. I took the message as a promise, and I'm still hoping to collect... The first from the library: "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel". Also anything by Andre Norton, especially one featuring empathic communication with animals, probably alien zoo animals, and helping them to escape (anybody know the title?) (of course I could be wrong about the author, it's been 25 years). The coup de grace: "Dad, what's in this box?" "Oh, that's just 10 years of this magazine called Analog I subscribe to - take them if you want." (I finished them 300 social studies classes later, and I still don't know why the teachers never said anything about reading in class!) ------------------------------ Date: 13 June 1987 22:24:41 CDT From: Subject: Re: Re: First SF (Leonard Vanek) writes: >Also early in my SF experience were a couple of short stories -- >Forrestor's (?) "The Machine Stops" and Clarke's (?) "By the Waters >of Babylon" (I have no confidence that I am correct about either of >these authors.) In case this hasn't been answered yet, "The Machine Stops" was by E. M. Forster, and "By the Waters of Babylon" was by Steven Vincent Benet. They were pleasant surprises in a literature text used in my junior high. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Jun 87 1235-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #289 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jun 87 1235-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #289 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 289 Today's Topics: Books - Cover Art (14 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Jun 87 23:33:55 GMT From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter) Subject: Re: Janissaries III > In light of the recent Heinlein cover blooper, the merc is shown > with a M-16, not a H&K, and the Roman, while wearing a cape, has a > common legionaire's helm with cheekpads and *two* shortswords. > Wierd scabbard positions, too. > Anybody know anyone besides Alan Gutierrez, Don Maitz, and > Darrell K. Sweet who actually seem to take the time to research a > cover? Darrell, especially, seems to at least read the book > through before painting a cover. I just gotta say it: Darrell K. Sweet seems to me to be doing some of the most accurate, and well-done covers I've seen out of most of the past year's books. The attitude of many cover artists seems to be "well, it's an automatic weapon- same thing. It's a sword- they're all the same." Gee, but the roman soldier looked like that on my box of Froot Loops...8-) Ok, I freely admit that while I might be more accurate, the artwork would stink. I just don't paint well. Plans, blueprints, sketches, and some sculpture- those I can handle (tryin' to improve all the time. One note- I don't do "abstracts", contrary to what some of my "friends'"opinion of it is 8-) But some cover art just is INCREDIBLY good! So here I am complaining... 8-) Other than cons, where can one get prints, reprints, posters, etc. for some of these and similar SF/Fantasy works? Eric ...!{ucsdvax,ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!deneb!ccs006 ucdavis!deneb!ccs006@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 87 16:25:30 GMT From: im4u!ut-sally!utastro!howard@RUTGERS.EDU (The Duck) Subject: Blacks on SF covers Recent postings have pointed out apparent discrepancies between the cover art and the text of Heinlein's *The Cat Who Walks Through Walls*. Certainly the complaint that artists' conceptions often not only embellish the book they are intended to illustrate but flat out contradict it are not new. Convention panels on cover art are full of authors' horror stories about the things that have happened to their ideas at the hands of artists. An example along the lines of *Cat* is Octavia Butler's new novel *Dawn*. The book's protagonist, a black woman, is replaced by someone quite ivory-skinned in the cover illustration. (In fact, to my lewd eye, the cover seems to hint at a certain soft-core element which, I hate to disappoint you, is not present in the novel.) This may be somewhat irksome to Ms. Butler, who, like many of her fictional characters, is black, and who is quite capable of creating characters as she wants them to be. (I have only paperback copies of most of her novels; their covers fail to portray a single unmistakebly black character.) Why do you suppose this is? I don't think anyone doubts that cover artists sometimes forgo careful reading of the book they intend to illustrate. To make things more complicated, it has happened that the cover illo arose quite independently of the book, with the two being united by an editor's fiat. (In the magazines, writers have even been commissioned to create stories around art already selected for the cover.) I would guess something along these lines accounts for most of the cover/text mismatches. But there also appears to be decided resistance to putting black characters on the covers of sf novels. (I'll leave cover art of other genres to the folks who read them.) If this resistance is real, and not just some misapprehension on my part, I would guess it results from publishers' perceptions that their market consists in large part of people who are less likely to buy a book if they think the main character(s) are black - even if that book is an automatic bestseller by Robert Heinlein. My speculative impulse fails me when it comes to the question of whether such judgements are conscious or not. A more important question is whether they are valid. Would the sf buying public really shy away from books with black characters on their covers? Howard Coleman ut-sally!utastro!howard Astronomy Department University of Texas ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 87 16:14:49 GMT From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!aplvax!jwm@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Meritt) Subject: cat wall walker cover I must have missed something again..... In the last couple of decades I have noticed _VERY_ few SF covers that had little to anything to do with their contents. They usually have some illustration by some artist who can (sometimes) draw a line, maybe two. I _NEVER_ select a SF book by its cover. Why should THE CAT THAT WALKED THROUGH WALLS be any different? James W. Meritt Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 87 15:30:26 GMT From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Blacks on SF covers And for other covers with non-black blacks, how about Steve Barnes' "Street Lethal", which had a black protagonist, and was written by a black, but whose cover featured a guy who was, if anything, Indian. Mike Farren hoptoad!farren ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 03:51:03 GMT From: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks) Subject: Black protagonists correctly portrayed on covers Well, since the discussion about Black protagonists being misrepresented on covers has been so prevalent lately, I've been wondering just how many books are out there that show them correctly portrayed on covers. The only one that comes to my mind is the story "Matadora", by Steve Perry. It's the second book of a trilogy ("The Matador Trilogy" is the official name of the collection); the first being "The Man Who Never Missed", and the last being "The Machiavelli Interface." On the cover of "Matadora" is a tall, lean, well-armed dark-skinned lady: the main character of this story. (For the curious who havent read these books, her name is Dirisha Zuri.) Does anyone else have any additions/answers to my query?? (And did anyone else *LOVE* this trilogy as much as I did??? ) Joanne Brooks U of Maryland Computer Science Ctr Consulting Staff BITNET: BROOKSJ@UMDD.BITNET Internet: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 87 15:26:36 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low) Subject: Re: Blacks on SF covers > An example along the lines of *Cat* is Octavia Butler's new novel >*Dawn*. The book's protagonist, a black woman, is replaced by >someone quite ivory-skinned in the cover illustration. I believe the same thing happened to Steve Barnes' STREET LETHAL where the cover shows a white man (presumably the main character) when the hero is actually black. Having met them at cons, Octavia Butler and Steve Barnes are both black. Steve Barnes is a real nice guy who has a slight resemblance to Jessie Jackson. Danny Low Hewlett-Packard ..!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 20:21:00 GMT From: friedman@m.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Blacks on SF covers Re. the question of whether editors consciously or unconsciously are afraid to put black characters on their covers for fear of reducing sales: I offer a hopeful thought. I can remember when TV commercials had no blacks in them, supposedly in part because of similar fears that white people wouldn't buy products so advertised. Fortunately for our society, we have left that fear far behind; black characters are often seen in commercials, and are often even featured. Similarly, there's a radio commercial in our area that features an MD in the background reciting the Hypocratic Oath; that MD is female! Another good sign, I think. So if that fear is present, perhaps editors will soon realize it is misplaced. Other segments of our society do seem to have progressed beyond that point. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 22:14:04 GMT From: burstein@sim.berkeley.edu (Andrew Burstein) Subject: Re: Black protagonists correctly portrayed on covers brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks) writes: >Well, since the discussion about Black protagonists being >misrepresented on covers has been so prevalent lately, I've been >wondering just how many books are out there that show them >correctly portrayed on covers. The only one that comes to my mind >is the story "Matadora", by Steve Perry. I just bought a used paperback copy of _Golem100_ by Alfred Bester. The cover seemed to correctly portray Gretchen, one of the main characters, as black. However, I think the monster was misrepresented! I think that almost all aliens, BEM's, etc. wind up getting mangled on book covers. They either get horribly exaggerated, or look like an animal head transplanted on a human body. I guess the artists don't want their study of human physiology to go to waste. Andy Burstein ihnp4!ucbvax!sim!burstein ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 02:04:39 GMT From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU From: (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: Blacks on SF covers Steve Perry mentioned this problem when addressing the Portland Science Fiction Society a year or so back. According to him he had to fight the publisher over the covers on his Matador trilogy. As I recall, the main character of "The Man Who Never Missed" was black (it's been a while and I could be wrong). The cover shows a caucasian. He did manage to get a black _woman_ on the cover of the second book. Leonard Erickson tektronix!reed!percival!leonard tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 18:32:58 GMT From: perry@inteloa.intel.com Subject: Re: Black protagonists correctly portrayed on covers brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks) writes: >Well, since the discussion about Black protagonists being >misrepresented on covers has been so prevalent lately, I've been >wondering just how many books are out there that show them >correctly portrayed on covers. > ... Does anyone else have any additions/answers to my query?? F.M.Busby's *Zelde M'Tana* is another novel with a black (female) protagonist that managed to get correctly onto the cover (of the paperback at least). This book is a sideline of his *Hulzein* series. perry@inteloa.intel.com ...!tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry ...!verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 21:46:00 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!trekker@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Cover Art Posters? Does anyone know if posters or prints are sold of the impressive cover art you find on a lot of today's Science-Fiction novels? I thought publishers would be selling posters of this art, but I haven't seen any ads. Have you? bucc2!trekker Bradley University Peoria, IL ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 16:51:13 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Cover Art Posters? > Does anyone know if posters or prints are sold of the >impressive cover art you find on a lot of today's Science-Fiction >novels? I thought publishers would be selling posters of this art, >but I haven't seen any ads. Have you? Publishers don't own the rights to reproduce the covers -- the artists do. Many of the authors do sell originals and prints, but you need to know where to find them -- Science Fiction conventions are the best place I know of, both in the art show and in the hucksters' room. The only problem is that you won't always know what artists will be selling at a given con (with the exception of the major conventions, you're likely to see the AGoH and local artists). If you can swing Nasfic or a major regional, you should be able to find a lot of good art. If there is a specific cover you want, write to the artist in care of the publisher (most artists are noted on the copyright page these days -- if not, write the published publicity department and find out the artist's name) and ask them if a print of the cover is available. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 06:08:01 GMT From: gatech!sdcsvax!celerity!ps@RUTGERS.EDU (Pat Shanahan) Subject: Re: Black protagonists correctly portrayed on covers burstein@sim.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Andrew Burstein) writes: >brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks) writes: >>Well, since the discussion about Black protagonists being >>misrepresented on covers has been so prevalent lately, I've been >>wondering just how many books are out there that show them >>correctly portrayed on covers. The only one that comes to my mind >>is the story "Matadora", by Steve Perry. > >I just bought a used paperback copy of _Golem100_ by Alfred Bester. >The cover seemed to correctly portray Gretchen, one of the main >characters, as black. > >However, I think the monster was misrepresented! I think that >almost all aliens, BEM's, etc. wind up getting mangled on book >covers. They either get horribly exaggerated, or look like an >animal head transplanted on a human body. I guess the artists >don't want their study of human physiology to go to waste. You may have found the explanation of another, related, phenomenon - the difficulty sf artists seem to have in portraying fully dressed women. Maybe they spend so much time painting female nudes in art school that they can't draw women in clothes! Even when the clothing a woman wears is fully specified in the text, she is usually shown at most partially clothed on the cover. I hope you are right, because a little more imagination in art education might get more accurate covers. There is another explanation that involves a different type of incompetence. The people who choose the covers and tell the artists what to draw know that most sf purchasers are young, white, males (YWM's). They may have decided that the only real people are YWM's, and so blacks, women, and alien monsters don't count. The rest of the population on the cover should be portrayed in whatever way makes them most interesting and attractive to the assumed YWM purchasers. For black males, make them either invisible or white. For women, undress them. For monsters, either make them totally grotesque, and so no competition for the YWM's, or make them into YWM's with strange heads, or make them into undressed females with strange heads. Publishers spend money putting covers on the books that are presumably intended to encourage readers to buy the books - BUT MAKE THE COVERS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE CONTENTS. The only sensible policy is to totally ignore anything on the cover other than the title, author's name, and price. Blurbs that gave an accurate, spoiler-free, summary of the setting and plot, with cover art that reflected the appearance and flavour of the setting and characters, would really help. Pat Shanahan uucp : {decvax!ucbvax || ihnp4 || philabs}!sdcsvax!celerity!ps arpa : sdcsvax!celerity!ps@nosc ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 15:36:23 GMT From: rochester!cci632!mark@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Stevans) Subject: Re: Black protagonists correctly portrayed on covers perry@inteloa.intel.com writes: >F.M.Busby's *Zelde M'Tana* is another novel with a black (female) >protagonist that managed to get correctly onto the cover (of the >paperback at least). At the risk of provoking even more nasty responses than my "Why do we hate Heinlein?" article, please allow me to venture a statement to the effect that: I think it is much easier to get a black *female* on the cover than a black male. I think this sort of racial and sexist discrimination sucks. Book publishers are as scummy as car dealers in my opinion. By the way, allow me to recommend a (coincidentally black male) author who has been mentioned in this discussion: Steve Barnes. While I have not read most of his books, the ones I have read were very well-written. I have had the pleasure of meeting him in person. He speaks the same way he writes: informative, entertaining, and engrossing. Mark Stevans cci632!mark ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Jun 87 1255-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #290 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jun 87 1255-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #290 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 290 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & Card (2 msgs) & LeGuin (2 msgs) & Lovecraft (3 msgs) & Robinson (5 msgs) & Rowley ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Jun 87 21:32:27 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) Subject: Re: The Uplift War Scott Turner writes: >I just finished reading this, and while I enjoyed it a lot, I was >disappointed with the characterization of the non-human races. The >chimpanzees (who barely passed Stage 3 of the Uplift test, whatever The chims (chimpanzees) did not just *barely* pass the Uplift test. The official in charge of the testing said that they were ready to pass the next level (Stage 4) at any time. >that means), were depicted as humans with slight deficiencies in >creative thought and attention to details. The Tymbrini were >portrayed as "humans who don't understand metaphors". What else did you expect the chims to be like? First of all, they are very close to humans genetically. Plus they are being Uplifted by humans who tend to favor human traits in their selection process. If they were radically different than humans, I would be surprised. I was also somewhat disappointed by the portrayal of the Tymbrimi. However, you must realize that they are mainly represented by Althaclena (sp?) who is very atypical. Brin fell down in not describing her special "borrowing" from her father. This was an important event in her character development and all we get are second hand reports. Her father is more representative of the species and does understand metaphores, but treats them as novelties (as humans do when they hear a new one). One thing that is not portrayed well is conversations between two Tymbrimi with the full flavor of empathic modifications. >The Gubru aren't portrayed as human clones, but their psychological >adaptment seemed curiously lacking. You'd expect a rather >different view of the world from an avian, but the differences Brin >portrays do not seem related to the racial background. The >Triumvarite and its reflection in the Gubru language (the tripling >of verbs - but shouldn't the verbs have reflected the Military, >Religion and Accounting of the sentence, not be synonyms?) was neat >and well done, but a rather shallow characterization. I agree with your comments above. However, compared to _Startide Rising_, the Gubru were fairly well depicted. In SR, there were about 15 different Galactics, none of which were developed at all. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 13 June 1987 22:22:25 CDT From: Subject: Orson Scott Card From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney) >Norman Spinrad notwithstanding, I enjoyed both Ender's Game and >Speaker, the latter more than the former. ... ... [Card is] >spending most of his time working on reviews (including, of course, >his review magazine _Short Form_) ... I saw Spinrad's review in _Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine_ (Mid-December 1986) in which he called _Ender's Game_ "an exemplar of successful sci-fi as partially failed science fiction". Has Spinrad commented on _Speaker_? How does one obtain _Short Form_? Are these critical reviews or just ordinary 'previews'? ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 87 04:08:03 GMT From: ic!grady@RUTGERS.EDU (Steven Grady) Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card howard@utastro.UUCP (The Duck) writes: >(Card must feel he has some important things to say, else why would >he write anything non-commercial right now, when he's one of the >hottest writers in the field?) There was an article about Card in the June issue of Locus. He says: "Now that I'm doing so much reviewing, science fiction is much more than half my writing. But it's never been more than half my 'creative writing.'" He proceeds to describe a number of projects he's working, completely, unrelated to SF. He also says his ideal would be to teach at some Eastern university. I was surprised - I thought he mainly did SF, although I shouldn't be surprised. A couple friends of mine worked at Compute! magazine during a summer in high school, and he was working there too. OSC seems to have quite a range of interests and abilities. Steven ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 16:00:39 GMT From: markc@hpcvlo.hp.com (Mark F. Cook) Subject: Re: "A Wizard of Earthsea" Query srt@CS.UCLA.EDU writes: >When Ged arrives at the College at Roke Island and is met by the >Archmage, the Archmage's familar (a raven) says something in True >Speech. Later, the mention of the Court of Terrenon (spelling) to >Ged recalls to him the raven, and indeed, one of the words the >raven says is "Terrenon". > >Tied in with this is that the Archmage sees a danger to Ged from >the North. He isn't sure what it is, but it is almost surely a >reference to the Stone at the Court of Terrenon (since at that time >Ged's shadow is waiting on the border of the Dark Lands). Given >this, it seems likely that the raven foretold Ged's encounter with >the Stone. The question is, what exactly did the raven say? Has >anyone ever figured it out? When Ged arrived at the College, the raven said (and I'm sure the spelling is wrong but phonetically it should be pretty close) "Terrenon usbek orrek" which translates as "Archmage to be". The raven did foretell that Ged would become that Archmage, but mentioned nothing about the encounter with the stone. Regards, Mark F. Cook USMail: Software Support Hewlett-Packard - Portable Computer Div. 1000 NE Circle Blvd. Corvallis, OR 97330 ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 19:12:06 GMT From: srt@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: "A Wizard of Earthsea" Query markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM (Mark F. Cook) writes: > When Ged arrived at the College, the raven said (and I'm sure >the spelling is wrong but phonetically it should be pretty close) >"Terrenon usbek orrek" which translates as "Archmage to be". The >raven did foretell that Ged would become that Archmage, but >mentioned nothing about the encounter with the stone. How did you figure out this translation? This would mean that "Terrenon" has two meanings in the True Speech (Archmage & the name of the Stone), which shouldn't be. And this doesn't explain why Ged would recall the raven when he hears about the Court of Terrenon. I suppose Terrenon could mean something like "master of magic" so that it would describe both Archmage and the Stone, but why would LeGuin do this? And why have Ged recall his meeting with the raven when he gets to the Court of Terrenon if the raven's utterance had nothing to do with the Court? Also, dramatically this translation doesn't make much sense. Ogion's note as much as promised that Ged would be Archmage someday. Why have the raven repeat that prophecy in the same scene? So I guess I'm doubtful of this translation. How did you come up with Terrenon = Archmage? Scott R. Turner UCLA Computer Science Domain: srt@ucla.cs.edu UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 07:43:58 GMT From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!kato@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? I always thought the hardcover "The Dunwich Horror" was an excellent introduction to Lovecraft. It's really a "best of" collection of short stories and novellas, and contains my personal favorites "The Shadow out of Time" (I think that's the title) plus a lot of neat tales like "Pickman's model" and "The Music of Erik Zahn (sp?)" and "The Festival". Note that Arkham House has recently released revised (from the original manuscripts) of all of Lovecraft's works. The first Lovecraft I read was "The Shadow over Innsmouth" which I found to be a really fantastic story. Gave me nightmares. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 20:55:00 GMT From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? An excellent reference work on Lovecraft and the Cthulhu Mythos is entitled something like "Lovecraft --- A Look Behind the Cthulhu Mythos" by Lin Carter. The focus is on Lovecraft and the early days of Arkham House. There is a good bibliography at the end, in which Lin Carter also explains his criteria for including a story in the Cthulhu Mythos. Hundreds of Cthulhoid books by other authors are also listed. Unfortunately, this book is out-of-date (it came out in the mid-70s). My copy was published by Granada/Panther Books in England, but I'm sure there's a US edition. There are occasional extensive postings of Lovecraft/Cthuloid bibliographies on the net. I don't know who compiled the last one. Bill ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 87 01:18:18 GMT From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com (Pietkivitch) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? My favorite H.P. Lovecraft novel has to be The Dreamquest Of Unknown Kadath where Randolph Carter dreamed of that marvelous city 3 times and was snatched away each time as he paused on the high terrace above it. The book also contains several other short stories. What makes this collection somewhat different is that these stories are written in fantasy and wonder with little of the dark horrors of his later tales. Lovecraft (to me) makes writers like Edgar Allan Poe and Stephen King mild by comparison. Recently, two movies have come out based upon Lovecraft novels, Re-Animator and From Beyond. I've seen a few Night Gallery episodes based on Lovecraft novels as well. Pickman's Model is one that comes to mind. I'd like to see more Lovecraft on film. Does anyone have a list of all of the movies or short feature films of Lovecraft work? Thanks in advance! rj pietkivitch ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 87 10:23 CST From: Subject: FIRST SF I like Spider Robinson's writing for his word play, and his positive attitude. I'm fond of the Callahan stories, _Melancholy Elephants_ (some of it published earlier in _Antinomy_), _Stardance_, and _Telempath_. I've read _Mindkiller_, and I liked how well it was written, but I had trouble believing in that kind of a "world domination conspiracy" - too much like comic books for me. (I have trouble taking any kind of vampire stories seriously, too.) I have a copy of _Night of Power_, but haven't read it yet. Spider Robinson writes from his feelings. He genuinely cares, deep down inside himself. I find it strange that he so strongly identifies with Heinlein, because Heinlein seems to write from his brain. It appears to me that RAH thinks everything out, rather than feeling it. His character's behavior seems to me so carefully planned, and stiff. Nothing unexpected or inconsistent or incongruous. Robinson's characters have the charm of being spontaneous, as well as thoughtful. Jerry Stearns Academic Computing Services University of Minnesota Bitnet: CORDWAINER@UMNACVX ------------------------------ Date: Thu 11 Jun 87 14:35:13-PDT From: Diana Egly Subject: Robinson & heinlein? It would not have occured to me that fans of Spider Robinson would be fans of Robert Heinlein. And so I'm more than a little confused by the assertion that this would obviously be the case. Not obvious to me... I seek out books by Spider Robinson (I even have a copy of Antinomy, cover and all); I don't seem to have any inclination to have Heinlein books on my shelves although I've read several. I see a major difference between these two authors that is an important one for me. Heinlein's work consistently suggests that there is a noble elite (maybe even as small as a single individual) which is to be admired. Robinson's works are more goodhearted about the bulk of humanity; most of his characters have a core of goodness that can be reached, that many of them act from despite other flaws. Another way to put this would be that Robinson's works inspire me to love my species while Heinlein's inspire me to feel distain for almost all of them. And, as I said, this is a difference that matters to me. So having stated a difference, what is the similarity that others referred to? Diana Egly@hplabs ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 87 17:33:35 EDT From: LT Sheri Smith USN Subject: Spider Robinson The only thing on my shelf by him is _Telempath_ which I quite enjoyed. Among other things, it postulates the effect upon civilization if everyone's nose suddenly became a hundred times more sensitive. The results can be quite amusing (and yes, punny!) while at the same time smelling the end of civilization as we know it. Sheri ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 16:33:26 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low) Subject: Re: Robinson & heinlein? >It would not have occured to me that fans of Spider Robinson would >be fans of Robert Heinlein. And so I'm more than a little confused >by the assertion that this would obviously be the case. Not >obvious to me... I also consider Robinson's writing to be different from Heinlein but Robinson is a truly fanatical fan of Heinlein. He also is not shy about it. He will tell you at the drop of a photon that he loves Heinlein's works and that Heinlein walks on water as far as he is concerned. That's probably the connection. I've met the guy at cons and he's a really nice fellow but he does have this fixation about Heinlein. Danny Low Hewlett-Packard ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 13:21:43 GMT From: gareth@computing.lancaster.ac.uk (Gareth Husk) Subject: Re: Spider Robinson laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes: >I don't know anybody who likes Spider Robinson who doesn't also >like Heinlein, but the reverse is not true. My largest problem >with Spider Robinson is that those characters which live in a world >not too far removed from us in time seem to live in a society that >I am totally unaware of. I find it extremely jarring. On the >other hand, the Callahan's Bar Series is a great deal of fun, as >are many of the shorts in *Melancholy Elephants*. Well enter at least one person who liked Spider Robinson's Callahan stories but can't stand Heinlein anymore. I used to read anything by him that I could find but *Number of the Beast* killed that. And Spider Robinson was on very thin ice with *RAH,RAH,RAH* ( in *TIME TRAVELLERS STRICTLY CASH* ) where the major point of his thesis is that Heinlein is permitted to write bad stuff and be exempt from criticism due to his sterling service to SF in the early days. I don't think that any author is sufficiently strong to get away with producing poor books without getting flak. Has Heinlein lost the ability to produce the nice tight books like *Double Star* that I grew up on. Okay so a lot of his juveniles are only fit for filling shelves when you outgrow the hero, but they were good juveniles. Do authors get paid by the word/page/kilo... these days such that we have to put up with finding a good short story expanded to 500 pages. Gareth dons asbestos suit and waits. UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gareth DARPA: gareth%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: gareth@uk.ac.lancs.comp ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 22:34:41 GMT From: ee4shb@ux63.bath.ac.uk (Bisson) Subject: The War For Eternity... Recently published over here in the UK (ARROW paperbacks) are two rather good SF novels by Christopher Rowley. _The War For Eternity_ and _The Black Ship_ These are SF war stories... sort of a cross between Dune and Dorsai! The ecology of Fenrille is well thought out, the hardware is excellent... There is a bit of sloppy science, but then we all have to fudge every now and then, and the fudges do advance the story (certain portions of TBS in mind here (but no spoilers...)). Mr Rowley has some very good ideas... ...rail guns pulled by mule trains... certainly my favourite image from the books. There seems to be a third book soon... I'm waiting! Does anyone know anything about it? So if you like a good read, a lot of action, AND decent characters... Simon Bisson ee4shb@uk.ac.bath.ux63 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Jun 87 1307-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #291 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jun 87 1307-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #291 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 291 Today's Topics: Books - Brooks & Smith (2 msgs) & Tolkien (4 msgs) & Zelazny (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Jun 87 09:09:47 EDT From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (John White) Subject: Sword of Shannara I personally have no fault with Mr Brooks about the book _The Sword of Shannara_ as a book in and of itself. It WAS entertaining, and a good read (except for the ending, which I still can't stand). The problem I, and others, have that make us almost universally pan the thing is the pseudo-fact that it is an almost direct, character-for- character, plot-element-for-plot-element rip off of TLotR. Now, I'm not saying that Tolkien was the only author able to tell a story. But, it still stands that Brooks wrote Shannara years after TLotR came out, and there is little doubts where his ideas came from. Tolkien, on the other hand, had to put a lot of work and study to collate the ideas he borrowed into the coherent story he told. Also true is the fact that the other two books in the series aren't nearly as Tolkien-derived as the first. I have read all three of the Shannara books, and I really enjoyed the second and third, which prove that Mr Brooks can write a good story without ripping off someone else (unless the person he ripped off is someone I haven't yet read ;-). But I still object to the first book, and I have no idea how it made it into print, considering the effort Christopher has been putting in to protecting his father's works. John L White WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 87 07:36:13 GMT From: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@RUTGERS.EDU (der Mouse) Subject: Re: "Doc" Smith: Masters of the Vortex [ pursuant to the discussion of Doc Smith's Lensman stories ] [ Note some > are by one person, some by another. ] ******LENSMAN UNIVERSE SPOILERS AHEAD****** > Internal evidence in _Masters of the Vortex_ (characters such as > Kim Kinnison appearing in the story; place settings; general > technology) suggests that _Masters_ occurs somewhere after _Second > Stage Lensman_ but before or possibly during _Children of the > Lens_. Let's see: "...man in the galaxy, not excepting Kimball Kinnison." Storm Cloud was carrying a small dureum axe as SOP, therefore dureum was relatively common "...piracy...disappeared...after the fall of Boskone..." I think I agree with you. > Secondarily, it [plot of _Vortex_] revolves around inherent power > of mind. The implication here is that inherent power of mind can > be SUPERIOR to the artificial power of mind produced by Arisians > and a lens. I would disagree. It is *different*. Superior in certain aspects (eg, lightning calculation and range of accessible thought), inferior in others (eg, usurping control of another's body and universal translation). > I also had doubts that it [Masters of the Vortex] was written by > Doc Smith. The language matches, but this was supposed to be in > roughly the _Second Stage Lensman_ time frame and I kept thinking > that if this clown is a Six, the highest ever measured, then would > Kimball Kinnison and the other Second Stage Lensmen be Thirties or > Fifties? Perhaps this scale (Type One through Type Five, with Cloud the first Type Six) measures intrinsic power of mind, as opposed to power when augmented by a Lens? Or possibly since, as the Fives told Cloud, "...there are many Calls, of which the Call of the Lens is but one.", there are also many dimensions along which a mind can be classified. I certainly never understood any of the Lensmen to be lightning calculators, and with all the Lensmen in existence some should have turned up if they are indeed at least Threes on the scale of One to Five (or Six). Most especially, the top Lensmen, the L2s (or possibly the Children, depending on the timeframe you think _Vortex_ fits into), still had to rely on mechanical aids (another chuckle for modern readers - they used slide rules!) for calculation. mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 21:34:09 GMT From: svh@cca.cca.com (Susan Hammond) Subject: Re: "Doc" Smith: Masters of the Vortex Well, how about this for a theory? Clarissa, the Second Stage Lensmen, and the Children of the Lens are the results of a fantastically long breeding program by the Arisians. Now, way back in, um, Triplanetary, when whats-his-name-of Eddore is having to deal with Earth again and the Arisians are discussing it among themselves, it is stated that "some general improvement of the race (meaning humanity, being artificially accelerated) is unavoidable". Maybe the wearers of the Lens are those humans that fall closer to what the Arisians were breeding for, and Cloud is closer to what humanity might have become without Arisian interference--and therefore should be measured on a different scale. This would lead me to speculate that perhaps the long, long range future goal for this "universe" would be a race of guardians that did NOT have to be ARTIFICIALLY accelerated into "guardianship" (Level 3, whatever). Remember, at the end of _Children of the Lens_, Christopher Kinnison is talking to a being to whom his "race" (well, what else should we call them?) has done just that--because his "race" is no longer adequate for guardianship. Comments, anyone? Susan Hammond svh@CCA.CCA.COM {decvax,linus,mirror}!cca!svh ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 16:25:35 GMT From: pdc@computer-science.nottingham.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: Tolkien I was once having a discussion with an acquaintance of mine about Tolkien's works and he came up with what I thought a pretty original idea about his works. As it hasn't come up in the discussion so far I thought I might as well post something on it to see what you make of it. The gist of the theory was that Tolkien's world was an aparteid allegory based on the fact that all all the good guys were white skinned and fair haired etc. Whilst the bad guys were black or, in the case of Saruman ceased to be white when they changed allegiance. For example the orcs were not only rad versions' of elve's but they were also dark skinned and ugly. I of course poured scorn on this theory asking why in this case were the dwarves not descriminated against as well? Then I read The Book of Lost Tales pt 1 in which the only dwarves occuring were greedy, money grubbing little (for want of a better word) dwarves. (In the tale of Tuor? and the Dragon). Maybe he had a point, I certainly didn't think so but then I'm biased in favour of Tolkien. Any comment however would be welcome. Piers Cawley ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 87 15:00:54 GMT From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte) Subject: Re: Tolkien pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes: > The gist of the theory was that Tolkien's world was an aparteid >allegory based on the fact that all all the good guys were white >skinned and fair haired etc. Whilst the bad guys were black or, in >the case of Saruman ceased to be white when they changed >allegiance. > For example the orcs were not only rad versions' of elve's but >they were also dark skinned and ugly. I don't think it's a racist thing. ("Is this a black thing?" -- E. Murphy) [Let me qualify this opinion by stating that I am one of the philistines who didn't get into LoTR and never finished it.] It seems, from what you describe, that black is just a symbol of evil. Evil entities are black just as the devil portrayed by Washington Irving was a black woodsman. Certainly racists embraced this mode of depiction because it supported their ridiculous rantings, but I don't think that evil characters being black is in itself a racist phenomenon. Matthew Belmonte Internet: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu BITNET: d25y@cornella d25y@crnlvax5 UUCP: ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 17:58:39 GMT From: firth@SEI.CMU.EDU (Robert Firth) Subject: Re: Tolkien pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes: >I was once having a discussion with an acquaintance of mine about >Tolkiens works... > > The gist of the theory was that Tolkien's world was an aparteid >allegory based on the fact that all all the good guys were white >skinned and fair haired etc. Whilst the bad guys were black or, in >the case of Saruman ceased to be white when they changed >allegiance. It's unlikely to be an "apartheid" allegory, since LoTR was plotted, and nearly all written, before Apartheid existed. More plausible is that Tolkien simply copied the old Northern mythological ideas that white=good and black=evil. This is so deep rooted that most heroic fantasy - which relies for much of its effect on resonance with inherited myth - can diverge from the stereotype only with difficulty. A far more modern writer, Guy Gavriel Kay, relies on the same idiom with his "lios alfar/svart alfar" distinction (light elves / dark elves). The disagreements between Tolkein's elves and dwerrow, on the other hand, probably DO reflect a modern class notion - the tension between agricultural and industrial England. Elves live in trees, in communion with nature, make things out of wood, &c. Dwarves live in caves, make things out of stone, and, while very clever (a term of depreciation for one of Tolkien's background) will often cause destruction through being over greedy or over clever. Tolkien's own introduction to the new (Ballentine) edition of LoTR is worth studying closely. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 20:24:09 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!logico!slovax!flak@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Flak) Subject: Re: Tolkien Piers David Cawley writes: > The gist of the theory was that Tolkien's world was an aparteid > allegory based on the fact that all all the good guys were white > skinned and fair haired etc. Whilst the bad guys were black or, in > the case of Saruman ceased to be white when they changed > allegiance. - Elrond and many of the elves had black hair. I believe one (or several) of the "races" of hobbits were brown skinned. Bombadil didn't fit the typical fair haired and skin description either. Didn't Aragon, Farimir, and Boromir also have dark hair? The proponderence of light hair was among the "Middle Men" (i.e. the riders of Rowan). I don't recall (here I *am* in doubt) any physical description of Sauron beyond his eye, and a mention that he could no longer assume a shape that was fair. I can't remember a specific referenece to color. (I'll gladly accept any reference to the contrary). Tolkien's writing is intense with imagery. The use of color is significant. One of Tolkien's major themes is the strugggle of light over darkness. Black happens to be the color associated with darkness. Goodness is associated with light, darkness is evil. We use the same imagry in Christianity. We refer to Christ as "the light of the world" and to Satan's as the "Prince of Darkness". The second age of Middle earth is known as the "Dark Ages". Do we not also have a period in our own (European) history of the same name? When it is suggested to take the ring to Bombadil, the idea is rejected by Elrond because Bombadil could not stand alone and eventually would be defeated, and then "night would come". There is reference to a time in Middle Earth before Morgoth's dominion, "before darkness came from the outside". There is the story of the creation of the stars, the two pillars, the two trees, and the sun and the moon. All of which were created by the "good" Valar, and were hated by Morgoth the "evil" Valar. Ungoliant (and later Shelob) wrapped herself in darkness. Galadriel's phial was a potent weapon against such creatures! Even Bilbo described the spider's domain in Mirkwood as a "patch of midnight that was never cleared away". The orcs and other perverted creatures shunned light. The Battle of Helm's Deep was won at the rising of the sun. The riders of Rowan arrive at Minas Tirith (sp) at "cockcrow". In all of this, I am, of course, talking of natural (day) light. There are "foul lights" at Isengard, pale lights in the barrow downs, candle lights in the Dead Marshes, and, of course, orcs never seemed to mind the light of an ordinary wood fire. I think that the significance of white and black in Tolkien is merely imagry to describe light and darkness, no more than that. After all, we do the same thing in the American culture (The good guys always wear the white hats in westerns). Dan Flak R & D Associates 3625 Perkins Lane SW Tacoma,Wa 98466 206-581-1322 {psivax,ism780}!logico!slovax!flak {hplsla,uw-beaver}!tikal!slovax!flak ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 12:43:08 GMT From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Shadowjack story From: drivax!macleod > oleg@quad1.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev) writes: >> I seem to recall there being at least one short story set in Jack >> of Shadows but I can't recall the name of it or where it was. > > You are probably thinking of the illustrated story included in a > strange kind of Zelazny anthology that arrived on the scene during > the height of the Amber books craze, back around 1980 or so. This > was an interesting paperback that had lots of illustrations, > illuminated treatments of Zelazny themes... You're thinking of THE ILLUSTRATED ROGER ZELAZNY, which actually started life as an 8-1/2 X 11 (roughly) trade paperback (and signed hardcover). Much easier to read that way. At any rate, that particular Shadowjack story was published as a regular prose story entitled, appropriately enough, "Shadowjack". It appeared in the collection THE LAST DEFENDER OF CAMELOT. Nota bene, however: it's only in the edition of that book published as a limited edition hardcover by Underwood-Miller, and not in the Pocket Books paperback. There were three other stories as well that were in the U-M edition and not in the paperback. I don't off-hand know if the SFBC edition follows the hardcover or the paperback, but I suspect the latter. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 87 11:10:10 EDT From: LT Sheri Smith USN Subject: Blood of Amber...Zelazny I, too, was waiting for this to come out in paperback before reading. BUT!!! Just happened to stop by a Walden book store 2 weeks ago, and there it was, for all of $3.50, in HARDBACK!! Since this is probably cheaper than it will be in PB, I naturally snatched it up. It is considerably better than _Trumps of Doom_, in my opinion. Made a lot of things clearer, didn't leave you hanging in mid-air, and was generally a much more satisfying story (read, not written in an hour!!). Sheri ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 17 Jun 87 0820-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #292 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Jun 87 0820-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #292 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 17 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 292 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Crichton & Grimwood & Lovecraft (3 msgs) & Fictional Computers (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Jun 87 14:38:27 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!uel!olgb1!riddle!domo@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency Inflate your phone bill (or somebody else's) by calling +44 1 241 5845. It's a London number run by Heineman, Adams' publisher, and carries a recorded message from The Man Himself. Dominic Dunlop ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 87 10:51 EDT From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: Critchton >>batoma@lll-tis.arpa (Burt Toma) writes: >> Anyone out there who enjoys Michael Crichton (... Andromeda >> Strain, Congo) should try his new book 'Sphere.' It's terrific. > > What's it about? Any non-spoiling information to wet our >appetities? Is it science fiction? I read the jacket at my local book store. Apparently, it is about some alien artifact found at the bottom of the sea, and its subsequent investigation. There was some mention made of alien life forms appearing from this thing as well. Sounds a bit like "Rendevous with Rama". ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 87 17:48:04 GMT From: ames!styx!auspyr!mick@RUTGERS.EDU (Mick Andrew) Subject: Book recommendation: REPLAY by Ken Grimwood WARNING: Mild spoilers ahead, but not half as bad as the sleeve of the book. If you like the sound(?) of what you read below, *don't* read the sleeve! Suppose you die of a heart-attack at the age of 43, and wake up in your college dorm 25 years ago. You have regained (re-acquired?) your 18 year old body, but memories of your past life and world events are intact. All around you is just as it was, and you know the future! What would you do? I read this book in one sitting (a *long* Sunday evening). I found the idea behing the novel most intriguing, and Ken Grimwood's plot development did not let me down. Suppose that at the age of 43 in that second life you again die of a heart attack, and once more awaken in your college room. Now you're getting the picture, and we're only on page 73. I found out about this book via the local San Jose Sunday book review. The reviewer pointed out that this book should have been promoted as a sci-fi novel, rather than a mainstream novel, to get more attention. The book is all plot and no character development, so I guess Mr. Grimwood slipped into the style quite easily. Good reading Mick {sdencore,necntc,cbosgd,amdahl,ptsfa,dana}!aussjo!mick {styx,imagen,dlb,gould,sci,altnet}!auspyr!mick ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 87 19:52:00 GMT From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? hsu@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes: > An excellent reference work on Lovecraft and the Cthulhu Mythos is > entitled something like "Lovecraft --- A Look Behind the Cthulhu > Mythos" by Lin Carter. The focus is on Lovecraft and the early > days of Arkham House. There is a good bibliography at the end, in > which Lin Carter also explains his criteria for including a story > in the Cthulhu Mythos. Hundreds of Cthulhoid books by other > authors are also listed. Unfortunately, this book is out-of-date > (it came out in the mid-70s). My copy was published by > Granada/Panther Books in England, but I'm sure there's a US > edition. There was a US edition published by Ballantine around the mid-70s. I don't think it's ever been reprinted. And while it's out-of-print, I'm not so sure it's out-of-date. Carter essentially takes each "Mythos" story and traces its roots (not as well as one might hope, either). Where I've found him most useful is in tracking down the byplay and cross-references to Mythos stories in the work of other authors of the time. I'm not aware of any of this info being superseded by recent discoveries, so the book isn't really out-of-date. With all the other Mythos stories that have appeared since then, though, it is behind the times. > There are occasional extensive postings of Lovecraft/Cthuloid > bibliographies on the net. I don't know who compiled the last one. I've got one that's sort of complete. If there's interest, I'll neaten it up and post it. Anyone seen Edmund Berglund's "Bibliography of the Cthulhu Mythos" or something like that? I'd like to. Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 87 20:05:01 GMT From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? rjp1@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Pietkivitch) writes: > Recently, two movies have come out based upon Lovecraft novels, > Re-Animator and From Beyond. I've seen a few Night Gallery > episodes based on Lovecraft novels as well. Pickman's Model is > one that comes to mind. I'd like to see more Lovecraft on film. > Does anyone have a list of all of the movies or short feature > films of Lovecraft work? Well, off the top of my head, there's the "Pickman's Model" and "Professor Pearson's (sp?) Last Lecture" episodes of NIGHT GALLERY. Didn't NIGHT GALLERY also do Clark Ashton Smith's "The Return of the Sorcerer", with Vincent Price? There's DIE, MONSTER, DIE!, starring Karloff and Nick Adams, based on "The Colour Out of Space". There's THE SHUTTERED ROOM, based very, very loosely (i.e., no Mythos) on the Lovecraft/Derleth "collaboration" of the same name. There's THE HAUNTED PALACE, starring Price and Lon Chaney, Jr., title from Poe, story from "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward". There's my favorite so far (haven't seen RE-ANIMATOR or FROM BEYOND yet), THE DUNWICH HORROR, which succeeds despite Sandra Dee and presents a very convincing Miskatonic U., Prof. Armitage, and Wilbur Whateley. I can't think of any others. I'd *love* to see "At the Mountains of Madness" or "The Shadow Out of Time" or even "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" done well, though. Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 87 15:28:42 GMT From: anne@cvl.umd.edu (Anne Becker) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? Something interesting that I came across a couple of years ago-- The school that I then attended had in its record collection two records of David McCallum reading H.P. Lovecraft aloud. The only story I remember that was on them was _The_Dunwich_Horror_. I couldn't copy them, because the library only allowed cassete copies of the records to be checked out, and I had no access to a tape-to-tape. The recordings are read well, and allowed my imagination to go further than it can when I sit down and read to myself. Has anyone else heard these records and know where they could be found? I would enjoy hearing them again. Anne Becker anne@cvl.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 87 16:35:58 GMT From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) Subject: Re: Fictional Computers marcus@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Mark Levin) writes: >PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes: >There was also a great short story about a computer that wanted to >live, and after travelling to the north and south poles of Earth it >did. I am sorry but I cannot remember the name or author. Zelazny--I can't remember the title, but it came from Houseman's _A_ _Shropshire_Lad_ (along with "The Wind's Twelve Quarters"). It does, indeed, appear in _Last_Defender_Of_Camelot_. A great book, but the quote you're looking for (paraphrased from memory) is "... wandering to and fro on the earth, and in it." (Sound familiar?) mack@inco.UUCP (Dave Mack) writes: > _When Harley Was One_ by David Gerrold (Computer achieves > consciousness) Many of James P. Hogan's books are > computer-oriented or feature computers. (I seem to remember an > author bio stating that Hogan used to sell computers for DEC.) Actually he *designed* computers for them (electrical engineer) as I remember. BTW, I've never read _When_Harley_Was_One_--sounds like a joke on Harlan Ellison's _Jeffty_is_Five_. Any confirmation? Bill Kaufman seismo!ames!orion!kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 87 14:47:08 GMT From: fla7@sphinx.uchicago.edu (William Flachsbart) Subject: Computers in SF. This is a response to a posting for books and stories with computers in them (realistic, I believe, was asked for.) Titles on left. Sorry, but I can't recall all of the authors, so a good Books in Print or card catalog should be a big help. stars (1-4) Title Author **** The Adolescence of P1 (book) ? ** Valentina (book) ? **** Neuromancer (book) William Gibson *** Count Zero (book) William Gibson *** Burning Chrome (book) William Gibson ** The Glass Hammer (book) K.W. Jeter **** The Moon is A Harsh Mistress (book) Robt. A. Heinlein **** Press Enter (story) John Varley contained in the book Blue Champagne **** Ender's Game Orson Scott Card **** Speaker for The Dead Orson Scott Card a sequel to the above- computers more important *** Caves of Steel, etc, etc, ad infinitem. Isaac Asimov in short, any of Asimov's robot stories. *** 2001: A Space Oddysey Arthur C. Clarke * 2010 Arthur C. Clarke ** The Starchild Trilogy Poul Anderson Jack Williamson *** The Humanoids, etc. Jack Williamson **** Sundiver David Brin **** Startide Rising David Brin **** The Uplift War David Brin ** Cyclops (and the other books) ? * Berserker (etc.) Fred Saberhagen That's enough for now. I will be compiling a more complete list, but it may take a few days. William Flachsbart ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!fla7 ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 02:17:39 GMT From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai) Subject: Re: Fictional Computers agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes: > Others (though not as "realistic"): The computer in _The Integral > Trees_ (can't remember its name); Multivac, in Asimov's _Winds of > Change_. Well, Asimov has a lot of Multivac, Univac computers running around in his short stories. One of the more famous ones is "The Last Question", which has Univac, which evolves into (my memory is faulty) AC (for Analog Computer - or something to that effect), then into something else... Eiji Hirai USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081 phone: for the summer it's (215)544-5349 UUCP: {seismo, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai ARPA: swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue 9 Jun 87 10:55:46-PDT From: D-ROGERS@edwards-2060.arpa Subject: fictional computers Not exactly a computer; rather, a computerized interface with a human brain (of a person with a hopelessly useless body): THE SHIP WHO SANG - Ann McCaffrey From: Alex Granok >Others (though not as "realistic"): The computer in _The Integral >Trees_ (can't remember its name); It was "KENDY" (for the State); sort of an "expert system", embodying the entire intellectual entity of a former `KGB' style agent. dale ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 1987 14:08 EDT (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: fictional computers marcus@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Mark Levin) writes: >>There was also a great short story about a computer that wanted to >>live, and after travelling to the north and south poles of Earth >>it did. I am sorry but I cannot remember the name or author. I'm not sure of the title, but a story along those lines is in the Zelazny collection _The Last Defender of Camelot_, either that or Spinrad's _No Direction Home_ (Hard to tell, I just lent both books to a friend). The story is called "For a Breath I Tarry" by Zelazny. I'm pretty sure it's in TLDC along with the "Stainless Steel Leech" ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 87 18:32:00 GMT From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!trekker@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Fictional Computers From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu >Can you Help me? - I need a list of books that are (1) fictional >and (2) have a vaguely realistic computer in them. This for a >reading list for a class I teach (Computers and Society). What about 2001: A Space Odyssey by Arthur C. Clarke? I thought he did a wonderful job in writing accurately the astronomical references and descriptions, and giving a very realistic view of the technology (especially of the HAL 9000 artificially intelligent computer) for the year 2001. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 21:55:18 GMT From: joanne@hpccc.hp.com (Joanne Hiratsuka) Subject: Re: Computers in SF. The Adolescence of P-1 was written by Thomas Ryan. It's in-and-out-of-print, so good luck finding it... ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 19:04:09 GMT From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!markb@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Fictional Computers marcus@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Mark Levin) writes: >There was also a great short story about a computer that wanted to >live, and after travelling to the north and south poles of Earth it >did. I am sorry but I cannot remember the name or author. Roger Zelzany The Last Defender of Camelot "For a Breath I Tarry" Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 18:40:13 GMT From: sjc@arthur.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin) Subject: Re: Fictional Computers & Robot Names I haven't been following the discussion too closely, (I may even have the wrong discussion) but did anyone mention the robot and computer from the "Jetsons"? The computer was called Uniblab and the robot was Rosie. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 14:40:15 GMT From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!tom@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Computers in SF. THE ADOLESENCE OF P1 is by Canadian writer Thomas J. Ryan. It's been recently re-released by Tor, I think. A major part of it is set at the University of Waterloo in Southern Ontario and the CBC made a TV film out of it for the FOR THE RECORD series a couple of seasons back. Cheers, Robert J. Sawyer c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 02:40:16 GMT From: seismo!garfield!sean1@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Computers in SF. tom@utcsri.UUCP (Tom Nadas) writes: >THE ADOLESENCE OF P1 is by Canadian writer Thomas J. Ryan. It's >been recently re-released by Tor, I think. A major part of it is >set at the University of Waterloo in Southern Ontario and the CBC >made a TV film out of it for the FOR THE RECORD series a couple of >seasons back. Yes, I saw the CBC show, and although I was thrilled that it was Canadian made, and NOT TERRIBLE!, I was sort of slapped in the face when I saw that they expected me to believe that this P1, the small artificial intlligence experiment which grew to seek out memory areas big enough for it to live in, was written in BASIC on a PET for godsake! I know it is Science FICTION, but gimme a break! It really was a good production, and that is rare in Canadian shows. Sean Huxter P.O. Box 366 Springdale NF, Canada A0J 1T0 UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1 CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 17 Jun 87 0837-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #293 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Jun 87 0837-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #293 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 17 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 293 Today's Topics: Books - Brooks & Delaney & Gibson (2 msgs) & Book Info & Book Request & Hugo Nominees & Cover Art (4 msgs), Magazines - Omni ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 16 Jun 87 12:24:24-PDT From: Judy Anderson Subject: Sword of Sha-Na-Na >As for the Shannara series, granted that the **FIRST** book of the >series was a lot like LOTR, but I have yet to hear of someone on >the net who hasn't been able to finish it. Now you have. Read about one third of it, the only reason I was able to keep it up that long was I keep thinking things like "OK, now the DM is having a random monster encounter..." Truly awful. Judy. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 87 14:30:40 GMT From: steinmetz.steinmetz!putnam@RUTGERS.EDU (jeff putnam ) Subject: Delaney I just finished "Stars in my Pocket Like Grains of Sand" (I'm usually several years behind times in my reading). _Very_ impressive novel. It says in one of the blurbs that there is a second part "The Splendor and Misery of Bodies, of Cities" (wonderful titles even!) and that this should be published in 1985, but I can't find this in bookstores or "Books in Print" or "Forthcoming Books". I remember seeing something about it recently on the net and would appreciate hearing what's going on. I would also be interested in hearing what people think of this - it would at least be a switch from Heinlein bashing. jeff putnam UUCP: steinmetz!putnam ARPA: putnam@ge-crd.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 87 11:46 EDT From: (Mary Malmros) Subject: william gibson I just discovered William Gibson a couple of weeks ago (got _Burning Chrome_ out of the library). I liked it so I ran off and gobbled up _Count Zero_ and FINALLY _Neuromancer_. Does anyone know if he has written anything else? Recommendations on same? Mary Malmros Smith College ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 87 20:21:00 GMT From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu Subject: For and against cyberpunk Kevin Maroney (kjm@dg_rtp.UUCP) writes: >I've got "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones" fresh >in my mind, so I feel obligated to respond to your statements. > >While it is true that this story is very much like cyberpunk... >"Time..." is not a cyberpunk story... Cyberpunk arises from two >main thrusts: rebellion ("punk") and body- enhancement ("cyber"). But there are earlier works that (more or less) meet your requirements. K.W. Jeter's novel Dr. Adder deals with both body enhancement (for sexual and other reasons) and rebellion (in a decadent and dangerous Los Angeles). Many of Delany's earlier books discuss body enhancement (e.g., Nova, Babel-17) though the "rebellion" part is downplayed (but always present). >Bester does [address the ramifications of body enhancement], in a >few ways, but his approach to the stories is veryt different from >the current cyberpunk vogue; he is more "literary", more concerned >with those old verities of the heart like "love and honor and >courage and pity" than a typical cyberpunk. Here we run into problems of definition. How much (or how little) do you want the term "cyberpunk" to cover? If you put thematic restrictions on a genre (e.g., science fiction should only address the interaction between man and technology), you would start cutting out many works that are usually considered to be in that genre. For example, who is to say Karl Hansen's Dream Games (which I feel meets both of Kevin's criteria) is NOT about love and courage, albeit in forms that are very alien to most people? >>But what is Cyberpunk? >>..... obviously, MIRRORSHADES! :-) The problem with something (relatively) new and different that tickles the fancy of the media: it gets labeled, watered down for trendies and yuppies, becomes a fashion, an institution, and it is impossible to recall its original identity and goal. >Cyberpunk is the new mainstream... Overall, it's a growing >movement, and I'm very afraid that the humanists are going to be >lost in a sea of "hard-hitting, action-packed cyberpunk adventure" >and fantasty megologies. I've already ranted against the name and concerns of "cyberpunk" in an old posting that no one seems to have read ("Cyberpunk is not punk"). The problem as I see it of cyberpunk is the first commercially and critically successful cyberpunk novel (Gibson's Neuromancer) is not a novel that is rich in revolutionary *ideas* and approaches. Hence, as a source work for a new subgenre, it is pretty dismal. Of course Gibson probably never intended it as such. I did enjoy Neuromancer, and feel that Gibson has achieved his effects very skillfully. But other than the powerful, almost visual impact and surface virtuosity, there is little that is *new* to work from as a source for future work. Most of the ideas and concerns have been addressed before. From: brothers@sabbath.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) >I say again: It is bad to genrefy (genreficate?). And hurray to that! To paraphrase Artaud, genrefication is pigsh*t. Science fiction readers would like to think they are on the cutting edge of things. To some extent you can defend this thesis. Unfortunately, the latest infusion of new ideas into science fiction via cyberpunk is too wrapped up in punk-as-fashion and surface glitz (I recommend Karl Hansen's flawed but interesting Dream Games as a possible exception). The real revolutionary ideas that accompany a re-examination of technology have been around for a long time, in the works of J.G. Ballard and William Burroughs, for example. (You can kind of argue that Burroughs' Wild Boys is a cyberpunk novel). It is ironic that Ballard and Burroughs are hailed as prophets in the field of experimental music, while science fiction readers by and large know them only by reputation. Perhaps science fiction is after all an optimistic, forward-looking genre that would like to forget about its darker talents. Bill Hsu ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 87 10:45:17 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!uel!olgb1!riddle!domo@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Book request... news@riddle.UUCP (UNIX Netnews) writes: >katinsky@swatsun (Matt Katinsky) writes: >> These books are sometimes hard to find, but the few people I have >> met who have heard of them, rave about them as much as I. They >> represent very different styles of fantasy writing. >> 1) _The_Worm_Ouroborus_ (sp?) by E.R. Eddison. Filled with the >> moral and > >For a predecessor of today's fantasy genre, William Morris is well >worth a look. His books, written around 1899, are Further info on publishers, plus one I forgot: The Wood Beyond the World Ballantine, 1969 The Well at the World's End (two volumes) Ballantine, 1970 The Water of the Wondrous Isles Ballantine, 1972 The Sundering Flood Unicorn Bookshop, 1973 News from Nowhere Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1970 Dominic Dunlop ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 87 11:24:04 EDT From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA Subject: Another missing book.. I remember reading a book years ao that I liked and I wonder if someone can help with details (Title, author publisher..) The story is set in a human universe. There is interstellar travel done "relativistically" in "neutrinic flyers" that sail on the winds of interstellar neutrinos. Genetic(psionic?) conditioning is done but to be truly effective it must be done on one's parents although some gain is made if done on oneself. A fully conditioned person can do all sorts of neat things like "sundive". Earth is watched but un-contacted although on the verge of being contacted. The characters are on the Moon observing Earth. The "hero" of the story is a partially conditioned, galactic, civil servant who has falsified his files and escaped into the future by merely staying ahead of his accusers. He will judge whether or not Earth is ready for contact. At the Moon base awaiting the decision are missionaries, traders, anthropologists, etc all waiting for our hero to make his decision, all with a stake in its outcome and all willing to influence the "hero" with money, sex, idealism etc. Sooo anybody recognize this?? Jerry Freedman,Jr jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 87 02:59:23 GMT From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper) Subject: Hugo Nominees List [This list courtesy of NESFA's "Instant Message," which got it from LOCUS.] HUGO NOMINATIONS FOR 1987 BEST NOVEL: SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD, Orson Scott Card COUNT ZERO, William Gibson BLACK GENESIS, L. Ron Hubbard THE RAGGED ASTRONAUTS, Bob Shaw MAROONED IN REALTIME, Vernor Vinge BEST NOVELLA: "Eifelheim," Michael Bishop, ANALOG 11/86 "Escape from Katmandu," Kim Stanley Robinson, IASFM 9/86 "Gilgamesh in the Outback," Robert Silverberg, IASFM 7/86, REBELS IN HELL "R&R," Lucius Shepard, IASFM 4/86, Wollheim's YEAR'S BEST "Spice Pogrom," Connie Willis, IASFM 10/86 BEST NOVELETTE: "Thor Meets Captain America," David Brin, F&SF 7/86, HITLER VICTORIOUS "Hatrack River," Orson Scott Card, IASFM 8/86 "The Winter Market," William Gibson, INTERZONE Spring 1986 Stardate 3/86, BURNING CHROME "The Barbarian Princess," Vernor Vinge, ANALOG 9/86 "Permafrost," Roger Zelazny, OMNI 4/86, Wollheim's YEAR'S BEST BEST SHORT STORY: "Robot Dreams," Isaac Asimov, IASFM 12/15/86, Robot Dreams "Tangents," Greg Bear, OMNI 1/86 "Still Life," David S. Garnett, F&SF 3/86 "Rat," James Patrick Kelly, F&SF 6/86 "The Boy Who Plaited Manes," Nancy Springer, F&SF 10/86 BEST NON-FICTION: TRILLION YEAR SPREE, Brian Aldiss and David Wingrove SCIENCE FICTION IN PRINT: 1985, Charles N. Brown and William G. Contento THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, Frank Miller, Klaus Jensen, and Lynn Varley INDUSTRIAL LIGHT AND MAGIC: THE ART OF SPECIAL EFFECTS, Thomas G. Smith ONLY APPARENTLY REAL: THE WORLDS OF PHILIP K. DICK, Paul Williams BEST SEMI_PROZINE: FANTASY REVIEW INTERZONE LOCUS SF CHRONICLE SF REVIEW BEST EDITOR: Terry Carr Gardner Dozois Edward L. Ferman David Hartwell Stanley Schmidt BEST DRAMATIC PRESENTATION: ALIENS THE FLY LABYRINTH LITTLE SHOP OF HORRORS STAR TREK 4: THE VOYAGE HOME BEST PRO ARTIST: Jim Burns Frank Kelly Freas Tom Kidd Don Maitz J. K. Potter Barclay Shaw BEST FANZINE: ANSIBLE FILE 770 LAN'S LANTERN TEXAS SF INQUIRER TRAPDOOR BEST FAN WRITER: Mike Glyer Patrick Nielsen Hayden Arthur Hlavaty Dave Langford Simon Ounsley D. West Owen Whitlock BEST FAN ARTIST: Brad Foster Steve Fox Stu Schiffman Taral Arthur "Atom" Thomson JOHN W. CAMPBELL AWARD: Lois McMaster Bujold Karen Joy Fowler Leo Frankowski Katherine Eliska Kimbriel Rebecca [Brown] Ore Robert [Touzalin] Reed Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 16:25:57 GMT From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low) Subject: Re: Cover Art Posters? > Does anyone know if posters or prints are sold of the >impressive cover art you find on a lot of today's Science-Fiction >novels? The following artists do print posters of their cover art: Michael Whelan - He does posters of all his cover paintings and wholesales them to various people. He used to sell them directly at cons but I don't recall him having a huckster table at the last few cons we were at. Carl Lundgren - Does posters of all his cover paintings. His wife usually hucksters them at cons where they are appearing. Don Maitz - Does covers which are normally wholesaled to hucksters. Victoria Possner - Does posters, and both wholesales them and sells directly as well. Boris Vallejo and Roweena have posters done of their works by a commercial poster company. Danny Low Hewlett-Packard ...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 06:08:50 GMT From: seismo!scgvaxd!stb!michael@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael) Subject: Re: Blacks on SF covers Actually, I stayed away from *Dawn* because of the cover--it made me think it was a cheap romance novel. Michael Gersten seismo!scgvaxd!stb!michael ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 03:40:23 GMT From: c60a-4er@tart7.berkeley.edu.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Black protagonists correctly portrayed on covers I recently looked at a glossy book on the art involved in the _Dragonlance_ D&D modules and novels. At several points, the artists mention that they were strongly encouraged (read: ordered) to make the illustrations more "sexy". The cover painting for _Dragons of Desolation_ originally showed Goldmoon in leggings--the bare legs and leather miniskirt were painted in later. I found the book rather demoralizing. I thought we'd come farther than that.... Mary K. Kuhner ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 22:36:32 GMT From: jtk@mordor.s1.gov (Jordan Kare) Subject: Re: Cover Art Posters? trekker@bucc2.UUCP writes: > Does anyone know if posters or prints are sold of the >impressive cover art you find on a lot of today's Science-Fiction >novels? I thought publishers would be selling posters of this art, >but I haven't seen any ads. Have you? At one time, publishers purchased artwork outright, including all reproduction rights. These days, the artists generally own the artwork itself, and sell only limited reproduction rights to the publisher. Originals of covers are frequently for sale in convention art shows (at impressive prices). Sometimes the artist will arrange for photo prints or poster reproductions, which are sold directly by her or him, or through a dealer or specialty publishing house. As a case in point, dozens of Kelly Freas covers (and many non-cover works) have been available as posters for years. Polly Freas handled the distribution of them until her death last year. Barring major changes in plans, Kelly's posters will be available from Off Centaur Publications (P.O. Box 424, El Cerrito CA 94530) in the future. To my knowledge, no large SF book publisher has tried to market SF art -- the markets are too different, and (for art) too small. Jordin Kare ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 01:26:56 GMT From: im4u!ut-sally!utastro!howard@RUTGERS.EDU (The Duck) Subject: Re: Hacking the ice in _Burning Chrome_ SJONES@UMass.BITNET writes: > I also came across alot of other good stuff in _Omni_ while I went > through them moldering oldies. Is the fiction and pseudo-science > still as good? Financial considerations (good bureaucratic term) > forced me to drop the subscription during high school, but I'd be > interested in opinions. Omni, paying among the highest rates in the business, still publishes some of the best short fiction in the business. I've always had a problem actually forcing myself to buy the magazine, though, since what it comes down to is paying a premium price for a little fiction wrapped in a sort of slick National Enquirer. Zebra Books, though, has published four collections of Omni sf, edited by Ellen Datlow, and these are a pretty good deal. (Titles go like *The First Omni Book of Science Fiction*, . . .) A recent watch-for-it list in Locus or SF Chronicle or like publication mentioned a fifth such book, due out roughly this summer (?), and I expect it will also be a winner. The first four books include works by Gibson ("Burning Chrome", "Johnny Mnemonic", "Hinterlands"), Orson Scott Card, George R. R. Martin, Robert Silverberg, Edward Bryant, Harlan Ellison, Gene Wolfe, Howard Waldrop (!) - on and on into the night. Excellent anthologies, and, in paperback, a sight cheaper than buying the magazines. (Ah, 'scuse me. Make that "considerably more cost effective . . .") Howard Coleman ut-sally!utastro!howard Astronomy Department University of Texas ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 Jun 87 0808-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #294 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jun 87 0808-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #294 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 18 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 294 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (13 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Jun 87 18:45:28 GMT From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Re: Heinlein Good Guys grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: > Regret, yes, if appropriate. I think the real problem that many > people have with Heinlein is that he doesn't automatically include > the reader on the side of the "good guys". While mapping out his > own form of idealism, he is apt to ridicule at least one of the > readers beliefs or cherished institutions. There is nothing wrong with this. Good literature should challenge you and make you think at least a little bit. That is one of the reason why I read fiction of anykind. > He makes it plain that you have to strive to become one of his > chosen, not just be there or agree with him. The problem I have with Heinlein (post-STRANGER) is that unless you were born in to some kind of elite group, you aren't worth anything. No amount of "striving" will help you. A minute percentage of the population is looked upon as great, while everyone is the stuff you find when you turn over a rock. At least with Asimov average people (for stories that is) have a chance to make a difference. With Heinlein I never get the idea that I could be invited to take an active part in the stories I have tried to read. If the story doesn't invite you to join in, why should you care what happens to the people within? I like Heinlein's stuff from the 40s and 50s, but after 1960 forget it. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 87 23:16:45 GMT From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel) Subject: The Cat Who... Anyone made up a list yet of the cameos in The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, and where the characters made their original appearances? Some of the characters sounded familiar, but I couldn't place all of them. I seem to remember a Skymarshal in TCWWTW. There was also a Skymarshal in Starship Troopers, but I don't remember either name. david rickel decwrl!sci!daver ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 04:57:43 GMT From: ames!aurora!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: The Cat Who... daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes: > Anyone made up a list yet of the cameos in The Cat Who Walks > Through Walls, and where the characters made their original > appearances? Well, this shouldn't be too hard. Actually, if memory serves, there were more "walkons" from other RAH books in THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST than there are in THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS. Anybody want to try a *tough* quiz, try spotting all the walkons in THAT book; characters from RAH novels, other author's novels, real people... too many for me to attempt. Anyway: TCWWTW = THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS TNOTB = THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST TMIAHM = THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS TEFL = TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE TRS = THE ROLLING STONES SIASL = STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND. MC = METHUSELAH'S CHILDREN GR = GLORY ROAD First, major characters in TCWWTW who are from other books: 1) Hazel Stone (Gwendolyn Novak) - Originally from TRS, later in TMIAHM. 2) Lazarus Long (alias, alias, alias...) - First appeared in MC, later in TEFL. Had a walkon in TNOTB, too. And the minor appearances: 1) Hilda Burroughs - She, along with Zeb Burroughs, Deetee Burroughs, Gay Deceiver, and the rest of that group, come from TNOTB. 2) The Tertians - These include Tamara, Galahad, the Adorable Dora, Justin Foote, Laz and Lor, Maureen, Minerva, Athena, Ishtar, and more. All from TEFL. Many also appeared briefly in TNOTB. 3) Manuel Garcia O'Kelly Davis - protagonist of TMIAHM. 4) Cas(tor) and Pol(lux) Stone - Hazel's grandsons, protagonists of TRS. Roger and Lowell Stone, from the same book, are mentioned in TCWWTW, but do not appear. 5) Jubal Harshaw - From SIASL. Brief appearance in TNOTB. 6) Andrew Jackson Libby Long - possibly the record-holder for appearing in the most Heinlein stories. Originally from "Misfit", also in MC, TEFL, and maybe a cameo in TNOTB, I forget. 7) Star Gordon, and Rufo - From GR. And where was Oscar, we wonders? 8) Captain John Sterling - Mentioned in TRS, but only as a fictional hero. One additional list: folks who look like they might have dropped in from another book, but *I* sure can't place 'em. Anybody else know for sure? Maybe from another author's work? I noticed a refugee or two from Doc Smith and Edgar Rice Burroughs appearing. 1) Uncle Jock (Campbell) 2) Sky Marshall Samuel Beaux 3) Ezra Davidson News for all you Heinlein fans out there: if you haven't yet heard, a sequel to TCWWTW, TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET, is due out next Monday, June 15. Run, do not walk, to your local bookseller's! Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 05:35:25 GMT From: gatech!sdcsvax!man!sdiris1!res@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert Sanders) Subject: Re: cat wall walker cover Just for info, the sequel (I think, haven't read it yet) is out to Cat etc... it is "To Sail Beyond the Sunset", and seems to revolve around Maureen Johnson Long, Lazarus' mother/wife... and pixel the cat survives... Skip Sanders sdcsvax!ucsdhub!jack!man!sdiris1!res Phone : 619-273-8725 (evenings) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 21:03:11 GMT From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland) Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up? >...mighty gald that your skin color matches mine... Now, who the >hell is the white man on the cover?... > > He ain't Lazarus, 'cause as I recall the guy is fairly tall and >does NOT have red hair Later in the book, while on the hospital planet (or whatever it is) Ames gets a tranplanted leg from Lazarus (one of his spares). This makes less and less sense, because if Ames matches "Sambo" and Lazarus matches Ames, then Lararus is also black. That still leaves the fellow on the cover a mystery. Or there is an error or two in the book, and all those fellows shouldn't match. pyramid!pyrtech!nancym ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 03:50:37 GMT From: berry@askone..arpa (Berry Kercheval) Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up? nancym@pyrtech.UUCP (Nancy McClelland) writes: >Later in the book, while on the hospital planet (or whatever it is) >Ames gets a tranplanted leg from Lazarus (one of his spares). This >makes less and less sense, because if Ames matches "Sambo" and >Lazarus matches Ames, then Lararus is also black. That still >leaves the fellow on the cover a mystery. Or there is an error or >two in the book, and all those fellows shouldn't match. Oops! In the book, is there not considerable fuss over the fact that Ames/Campbell's new foot does NOT match the rest of him? This is how he discovers that the foot's "anonymous donor" was in fact Lazarus Long. Berry Kercheval berry@mordor.s1.gov {ucbvax!decwrl,siesmo}!mordor!berry Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 05:26:31 GMT From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Heinlein book From: swatsun!hartman (jed hartman) > nair@unc.cs.unc.edu (Anil Nair) writes: >> Can somebody tell me the name of the Heinlein book which has the >> stories: >> 1.By his bootstraps >> 2. And he built a crooked house > > I don't know if there's a collection with BOTH of those stories > (JMB, where are you??), but the second one is in 6xH (Six by H), > a.k.a. _The_Unpleasant_Profession_of_Jonathan_Hoag_... No Heinlein collection has both of those stories, but there is an anthology with both: CLASSIC SCIENCE FICTION, edited by Terry Carr, Harper & Row, 1978. "By His Boostraps" appears in Heinlein's THE MENACE FROM EARTH. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 16:03:44 GMT From: jdeifik@venera.isi.edu (Jeff Deifik) Subject: To Sail Beyond The Sunset (a mini-review) To Sail Beyond The Sunset by Robert A. Heinlein 416 pages published by Ace/Putnam (some mild spoilers follow) This book is the autobiography of Maureen Johnson, Lazarus Long's mother. It describes her life, from youth through being rescued by Lazarus Long. It is a somewhat laid-back book, and is more autobiography than hard-SF. There is the usual amount of time travel, multiple universes, and sex. I think that TSBTS will appeal to a wide audience (even more than TCWWTW). It seems pretty mild for Heinlein. One thing it did is to continue tying together all of Heinlein's work, like TNoTB and TCWWTW. I enjoyed reading it, but it isn't a great book like SIASL was. I thought that it was well worth the price. Jeff Deifik Nameserver Internet: jdeifik@turbo.isi.edu New Internet: jdeifik@isi.edu Old Arpa: jdeifik@isi.ARPA Csnet: jdeifik%isi.edu@net.cs.net Bitnet: jdeifik%isi.edu@wiscvm.wisc.edu Uucp: ...!ihnp4!seismo!jdeifik@isi.edu ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 87 03:20:40 GMT From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland) Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up? >nancym@pyrtech.UUCP (Nancy McClelland) writes: >>Later in the book, while on the hospital planet (or whatever it >>is) Ames gets a tranplanted leg from Lazarus (one of his spares). >>This makes less and less sense, because if Ames matches "Sambo" >>and Lazarus matches Ames, then Lararus is also black. That still >>leaves the fellow on the cover a mystery. Or there is an error or >>two in the book, and all those fellows shouldn't match. > >Oops! In the book, is there not considerable fuss over the fact >that Ames/Campbell's new foot does NOT match the rest of him? This >is how he discovers that the foot's "anonymous donor" was in fact >Lazarus Long. On page 297, you'll find the only "description" of the foot in question. "Anyone who bothered to look could not fail to see what I meant. Four masculinefeet - Three were clearly from the same genes: Lazarus' two feet and my new foot. The fourth was the foot I was born with; it matched the other three only in size, not in skin color, texture, hairiness, or any detail." I took this to mean that at a glance, you would not notice a difference, but anyone who looked closely would see the difference. If he's wearing a white foot on a black leg, anybody but the blind beggar would see it. I admit, this is somewhat open to interpretation, but it seemed clear when I originally read it. pyramid!pyrtech!nancym ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 87 23:40:49 GMT From: seismo!enea!mapper!ksand@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Sandvik) Subject: Re: Author Query (..Crooked House) scott@hou2g.UUCP (Scott Berry) writes: >My brother has a question which I thought might be answered here. >Please MAIL responses to me, since I don't usually read this group. > >Who wrote the story "And He Built a Crooked House", and where has >it appeared? My brother is trying to find a copy. Thanks. This short story by Heinlein - and the Magic Inc. novel - are the two only Heinlein works I like. Just a personal point of view, and about Heinlein as a *great* sf-writer. Kent Sandvik ADDRESS: Vallgatan 7, 171 91 Solna Sweden PHONE: +46 8 - 55 16 39 job, - 733 32 35 home ARPA: enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa UUCP: ksand@mapper.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 03:55:17 GMT From: c60a-4er@tart7.berkeley.edu.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up? nancym@pyrtech.UUCP (Nancy McClelland) writes: >Later in the book, while on the hospital planet (or whatever it is) >Ames gets a tranplanted leg from Lazarus (one of his spares). This >makes less and less sense, because if Ames matches "Sambo" and >Lazarus matches Ames, then Lararus is also black. That still >leaves the fellow on the cover a mystery. Or there is an error or >two in the book, and all those fellows shouldn't match. Not to argue with the main point--the cover is almost certainly screwed up-- but unless they're tissue typing for a lot more factors in _Cat_ than they do today, it is quite possible for a black, especially one of North American background, to be an acceptable tissue match for a white. Only a few dozen genes are involved, several inherited as a linked group, and the most common Caucasian tissue types are quite common in American blacks. (You can't use tissue antigens to reliably determine an individual's race, although you can easily distinguish of Caucasians and Negros by frequencies.) Taking a break from a research project on this very system.... Mary K. Kuhner ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 01:10:26 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL (One More Time) grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >Regret, yes, if appropriate. I think the real problem that many >people have with Heinlein is that he doesn't automatically include >the reader on the side of the "good guys". While mapping out his >own form of idealism, he is apt to ridicule at least one of the >readers beliefs or cherished institutions. He makes it plain that >you have to strive to become one of his chosen, not just be there >or agree with him. Say what? Heinlein's not trying to get you on anyone's side -- he's trying to make his readers THINK! For example, he is on quote in EXPANDED UNIVERSE as saying that STARSHIP TROOPERS was *not* intended to say that his proposed government/voting rights were the best ones or the ones he wanted; it was intended to make people CONSIDER what such a government would be like. And hopefully to gain insight into government and voting practices in the process. (The Witness knows that most U.S.A. residents need to learn one heck of a lot more about both!) Unfortunately, ``_thinking_ is an activity to which all too few minds are accustomed.'' (Not a quote from Heinlein, in case you're wondering.) Brandon S. Allbery 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +01 216 974 9210 {decvax,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 01:13:04 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up? berry@askone..ARPA (Berry Kercheval) writes: >>nancym@pyrtech.UUCP (Nancy McClelland) writes: >>Later in the book, while on the hospital planet (or whatever it >>is) Ames gets Tertius, not a hospital planet. (Although there is a hospital-plus-rejuve center built into the Long mansion.) >>a tranplanted leg from Lazarus (one of his spares). This makes >>less and less sense, because if Ames matches "Sambo" and Lazarus >>matches Ames, then Lararus is also black. That still leaves the >>fellow on the cover a mystery. Or there is an error or two in the >>book, and all those fellows shouldn't match. > > Oops! In the book, is there not considerable fuss over the fact > that Ames/Campbell's new foot does NOT match the rest of him? > This is how he discovers that the foot's "anonymous donor" was in > fact Lazarus Long. About the only thing I understood to match was the immune system, i.e. the leg wouldn't be rejected. I doubt that Lazarus is black, from the "Da Capo" of TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE. Brandon S. Allbery 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +01 216 974 9210 {decvax,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 Jun 87 0820-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #295 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jun 87 0820-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #295 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 18 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 295 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Jun 87 15:31:02 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: ST:TNG Set Visit #1 Okay, here is the first of a couple of reports on my visit to ST:TNG (memories get fuzzy, so I'll forget stuff). Unfortunately, the net won't handle sketches of the sets, but then, I can't draw anyway. ******SPOILER WARNING****** The ST:TNG sets are located on three soundstages on the Paramount lot (one more than the original series) They're kept locked at all times they are not in use to keep employees from "borrowing" parts of them. Some general comments on the sets first: Everything is carpeted, and all the walls are fabric covered or otherwise not made to look like metal/plastic. There are alien looking plants in the hallway (see TMOST for GR's definition of an alien looking plant). The hallways are redressed sections of the movie hallways with the A-frame structures removed to make them much more roomy. In addition, new halls have been built. Doors are all labled by function of the room behind (one says "Droid Maintenance"...that's an Andy Probert Joke). There are two bridges, the main bridge and the battle bridge. The main bridge is circular, with a second level in back that ramps down to main floor level at about 2 and 10 o'clock (all locations are relative to facing toward the viewscreen from the center, the viewscreen being 12 o'clock.) Slightly behind center are three chairs for the Captain, Number one, and the Councelor. Behind them is a rail, which doubles as a way to keep people from falling off the raised second level and as a console. On the rear wall (from about 5 to 7 o-clock) are normally unmanned consoles that can however fulfill any function. When in operation, a chair pops out from underneath. In front of the three chairs are Ops and Comm, the equivilant of the navigation/helm console. At about 9 o'clock is the door to the captain's office/ready room (more on that later) and a turbolift. At about 3 o'clock is the emergency turbolift to the battle bridge. For those of you with writers' guides, it matches the sketch in there very well. More details on the bridge when I have my copy of that sketch in front of me (I left it at home). The captain's offic/ready room, as you enter it, to your left is a low couch with terrarium end-tables. The couch pulls out to a double bed. Straight ahead is a wrap around desk/conference table for small discussions. Behind is a window, and an aquarium with a live lion fish and coral. Off to the left is the Captain's private toilet (no the set for the toilet isn't built, it's just a doorway). Also off the bridge is a conference room, but it wasn't dressed when I visited, so all I can tell you is that it's curved, it has windows, and it's redressed to become sick bay (or vice versa). On the wall of the bridge at about 8 o-clock is a plaque that says "USS ENTERPRISE, NCC-1701D" Where it was built (Somewhere over Mars) and in fine print "Chief Designer - A. Probert, Grand Admiral - G. Roddenberry" You'll never read it on a TV screen...too small. The battle bridge is smaller and more military looking (it's located in the secondary hull). Part of it is a redress of the movie bridge. It looks more like the "old" bridge than the main bridge does, with a center chair and ops/comm console with other consoles behind and to the sides. It also has a row of lights under the viewscreen that scrolls from left to right, just like the old series...that was deliberate to give it a feel of familiarity. Engineering (the set) is a three deck high set with a working open elevator between floors. A painting makes it look larger. There is a large central feinberger, with consoles and grid floors around. There is a small shielded control room off to one side (what do they use for shielding? Why, transparent aluminum of course!). The transporter room looks like a transporter room (seriously..it looks pretty much like the tv one). They have one cabin set, which I assume will be redressed/walls added to be everyone's cabin. It was under construction when I saw it, and in family mode, with two beds, two doors, and a hallway that went off to the bathroom. It is located on the outside of the disk on the upper side, and there are windows looking out (That part can be turned upside down so they are on the lower disk looking down...pretty sneaky). There is a large empty, metallic gray room which is the holo-deck, but once they turn on the holography, it looks like the park where they did location shooting :-). On one hallway intersection wall is a large cut-away side view of the ship with major rooms labeled. Oh for a photographic memory! I can tell you there is a place for docking the Captain's Yacht! The third soundstage is for planet sets. They've built a permanent rocky set complete with canyon, caves, and a horizon with changeable color sky. It can even be flooded and used as a lake! I'll break this now, and come back with a few bits on the first episode/ costumes/ cast etc. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 15:32:18 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: ST:TNG Visit #2 ******SPOILER WARNING****** They were shooting on the planet set they day I was there. Present were Number One, Troi, Yar, LaForge and Data. The uniforms are jumpsuits with black pants (except for Troi's) and color coded torsos, black again across the shoulders and low heeled boots. Troi was wearing a denim jacket over her uniform, so I didn't see the skirted version (they were in rehearsal, I assume the denim jacket is not part of the costume...or may be it is). Number One's uniform was maroon, I don't remember the others. Data's makeup looked vaguely metallic or plastic, I don't know how it will film. I saw no specifically alien features on Troi. Number One has exactly the same hairstyle as the young (TV) James T. Kirk. This may be coincidence, or maybe Kirk's his hero? The little I picked up about the plot. After they get the introductions out of the way, the Enterprise travels to "Farpoint", where there is a large technically advanced station to serve them. But down on the planet itself (Deneb IV...yes it may be where slime devils come from) there is a stone and wood culture. Why? The answer involves traveling underground (I told you there was a cave set) and...that's all I know, really. Believe me, if there had been a script lying around I would have looked. That's all I remember off the top of my head, but if you ask questions, maybe I can remember more. Post the questions, I'm sure everyone's interested. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 16:20:34 GMT From: cd0v+@andrew.cmu.edu (Chris Durham) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia >Recall that Uhura did take the navigation console in Balance of >Terror, In my previous message about this subject, I said that Lt. Uhura took command in the animated episode "The Lorelei Syndrome". I meant to say "The Lorelei Signal", not "..Syndrome" Chris Durham Arpa: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu BitNet: cd0v@cmuccvma usenet: ...!{seismo, harvard}!andrew.cmu.edu!cd0v ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 22:27:42 GMT From: welty@sundown.steinmetz (richard welty) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia I'm going to relate some of what is the usual practice in the US Navy, in the hopes of showing how a real naval organization works ... In the early days of the steam navy, the US did distinguish between line officers and engineering officers. This system was abandoned around the turn of the century, and the line and engineering corps were combined. An officer today might go to school to learn a new speciality, and then serve in that speciality for a while, but is not thereafter limited. In fact, the Bureau of Personnel tends to try to broaden the background of officers. You get officers who have commanded a gun turret on a battleship, then served as staff members on shore, then been communications officers, then exec of a ship, and so forth. Being communications officer on a ship certainly was no bar to taking command. On the first day of the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, the communications officer of the cruiser San Francisco, Bruce McCandless, ended up in command of the entire column (that the SF was flagship for), after the captain, admiral, and other senior staff were killed. He received a Medal of Honor for his actions after taking command. Certainly, I wouldn't think that a quality organization would put bright officers such as Uhura into dead end jobs, and being communications officer for the Enterprise forever would seem to be rather limiting to me ... Richard Welty CSNet: welty@crd.ge.COM Internet: welty@ge-crd.ARPA Usenet: {seismo!rochester,ihnp4!chinet}!steinmetz!crd!welty ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 14:28:00 GMT From: cmcl2!acf3!sxt2443@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia >>Sometimes Scotty stands around, watching what they do, but they >>never get to command. >> >>Does that make any sense? Yes it does, if you take the US Merchant Marine as an example. Engineering officers are considered below decks officers and are not in the chain of command (command requires a different license). Brian Reynolds ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 87 14:33:40 GMT From: langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu (John E. Langbein) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner) writes: >Not quite true. There were a number of episodes where Scotty was >given command of the ship (the episode where Kirk and a landing >party were stuck on the planet which was sort of like ancient Rome >- I forget the name - and "The Gamesters of Triskellian" (sp?), >just to name two). Also, Star Fleet has, basically, three >classifications of officers - Engineering, Sciences, and Command. >Spock and Uhura are in Sciences (of course, you can validate >Spock's How can you tell Uhura is Science? If the uniform color had anything to do with group, she would be engineering (red). Science is Spock, Bones, and the nurses (blue). Command is Kirk, Sulu, and Checkov (gold). Am I correct? Horridly Wrong? In the wrong Universe? :-> John ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 87 15:06:33 GMT From: hplabs!intelca!mipos3!bverreau@RUTGERS.EDU (Bernie Verreau) Subject: Re: ST:TNG Visit #2 1: So where did you get the invitation? 2: Is the series is being filmed or taped? 3: Is Roddenberry supervising production? Bernie Verreau uucp: {hplabs|amdcad|qantel|pur-ee|scgvaxd}!intelca!mipos3!bverreau csnet/arpanet: bverreau@mipos3.intel.com ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 87 01:35:09 GMT From: cmcl2!phri!westpt!sunybcs!ugachan@RUTGERS.EDU (Alvin M. Chan) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia In the episode "The Galileo Seven", where Spock, McCoy, Scotty and some other cannon fodder are sent out to explore a big bizarre cloud, whilst the Enterprise is currently supposed to make a rendezvous with another ship to deliver some serum to fight a plague on some colony. But the shuttlecraft gets lost, crashlands on some planet inhabited by BIG hairy 'people'. These inhabitants kill numerous crewmembers from the shuttle as well as from searchparties from the Enterpoop (Bloom County influence :-)). But, this is Mr. Spocks 'real' command of a ship of his own, and Dr. McCoy really starts nagging Spock when things get wrong. Also there was one particular portion where Spock suddenly cracks up and starts repeating over and over again "I don't know what I did wrong, it's not logical, it's not possible, I don't know what I did wrong, every thing I did has been the wrong thing etc etc etc" Very untypical of Spock yet also the last part of the episode where Spock makes a GAMBLE on trying to signal the Enterprise by jettisoning the remaining fuel of the shuttle and burning it in orbit is interesting also. Alvin M. Chan SUNY at Buffalo csnet: ugachan@Buffalo.CSNET arpanet: ugachan%Buffalo@csnet-relay.ARPA uucp: ..!{nike|watmath,allegra,decvax}!sunybcs!ugachan BITNET: ugachan@sunybcs.BITNET V127N64X@UBVMS.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 87 20:25:50 GMT From: cmcl2!psuvax1!pitt!bgsuvax!mcdermot@RUTGERS.EDU (mark mcdermott) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia Q4071@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Interface Associates) writes: > I am unconvinced. Note that Kirk almost always ascends the > Captain's Chair from the starboard side and leaves it the same > way. Unsteady, he left the Chair and said, to no one in > particular, "take over." According to the chain of command as it > seems to be on the Enterprise, the helmsman is the closest thing > there is to an OOD, and therefore outranks all other officers > during his watch except for the Exec and the Captain. To give the > Conn to Chekov would be a serious breach of the chain of command > so long as Sulu had the helm. As I do not recall his explicitly > naming Chekov, I assumed that he spoke to Chekov to save his > strength, not to give him the Conn. Ahh, but Sulu was NOT there in "Journey to Babel"! He was off participating in filming "The Green Berets"! I am positive that was the episode Nichelle Nichols has mentioned as being the one where Uhura SHOULD have taken the Conn, but was overruled by the networks. Phil Foglio did a great cartoon about that in his "Star Trek Primer" Mark McDermott ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 87 19:26:13 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: ST:TNG sketches NO SPOILERS (sorry) To the best of my (VERY!) limited ability I have sketched set layouts for Star Trek:The Next Generation. If for some unknown reason you want a copy of my scribbling, send a self-addressed standard business envelope with enough U.S. postage to get a normal 1st class letter to you. All I want to do is stuff 'em, lick 'em, and drop 'em in the mailbox. Included are sketches of the main bridge, captains office/ ready room, conference room, sickbay, engineering, transporter room and a typical cabin. Most are blue-print like layouts with some side views. There is little or no detail, I didn't have camera, sketchbook or yardstick on the sets. The Writers/Directors guide has a nice sketch of the main bridge, which is accurate, as well as a couple of sketches of the ship. Has somebody got Lincoln Enterprises' address handy? Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 87 08:42:45 GMT From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia drp@lll-lcc.aRpA (David Preston) writes: >I thought McCoy was the most senior officer after K&S; in >Menagerie, Spock surrendered to McCoy, after explaining to him that >he had committed mutiny, and that it was up to McCoy to arrest him >as the most senior officer. Of course, McCoy was not in a command >position(I'm a DOCTOR not a Starship Captain :-) Sorry, I forgot to mention McCoy. You may well be right, I can't remember the exact ranking of the good doctor (Scotty is a Lt. Commander - in the series, anyway! :-) - if I remember correctly). However, he falls under Sciences, whose personnel don't command ships (with the notable, though already explained exception of Spock). For that matter, I think that the poor man would probably have a nervous breakdown if he was ever given the con! :-) David Guntner UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 Jun 87 0837-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #296 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jun 87 0837-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #296 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 18 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 296 Today's Topics: Books - Bester & Crichton (2 msgs) & Eddings & McCaffrey & Tolkien (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Jun 87 14:37:26 EDT From: wyzansky@nadc.arpa (H. Wyzansky) Subject: Re: The Stars My Destination (Bester) From: LT Sheri Smith USN >It is made perfectly clear that all windows are of one-way glass so >no one can look in and memorize the coordinates of a room, yet time >and again, when our heroes need to get someplace they can SEE, they >don't teleport. Sam is killed because he jumps onto a >(non-functioning) anti-grav beam instead of "jaunting". At the >end, when "the burning man" is in the basement of St Pat's, they >have to tunnel to him from across the street instead of simply >jaunting down next to him. Now really. This is a bit much. First >off, why doesn't he simply _burn up_???? His clothes are on fire. >Has he miraculously become some sort of god??? Second, they can >clearly see him, yet they have to go across the street into a >boarded up building, locate the basements, locate the correct >direction, and dig their way thru?? This would take HOURS!!! And >how do they know (especially as _I_ didn't) that since his clothes >are already on fire, he isn't long since expired whilst they are >pawing around down there in the (excessively fortuitous) >tunnels?????? They couldn't jaunt down to where the "burning man" was because the area was filled with all kinds of debris and wires and, as is explained, it is extremely unhealthy to jaunt into an area which is already occupied by solid objects. Also, Gully was both Space AND TIME jaunting after the explosion and he was not in the burning basement that long by his time scale. >Then there is the radioactive character (forgot his name) who can >only stay in the same room with anyone for a max of 5 minutes a >day. What sort of magick is it that keeps HIM alive, when he can >manage to kill an orchid with his radioactivity just by cupping it >in his hands??? Dillingham (sp?) had some kind of weird metabolism that enabled him survive the accident. Remember when the book was written. There was an idea back then that humans could actually adapt to radiation. For reference, see Piper's short story about the dictator from the 100th century who came back to the 20th and was radioactive and the conversation about the myth of "deadly radiations" that USED to come from nuclear plants. >The mazes and baffles are never adequately explained. How do they >work? Purely featureless?? Why can't I envision myself in the maze >at Macy's, and jaunt there??? Or is it constantly changing?? But, >so what. I'll just envision myself in the women's room instead. Or >wherever. With a stocking over my head. Then I'll grab what I want >out of the jewelry counter or the shoe department, and jaunt away. >??How did any store survive??? The litany is constantly repeated: Location, Elevation, Situation (LES). To jaunt to a place, it is required to know its spacial coordinates with regard to where you are. You could visualize the women's room all you want, but if you don't know EXACTLY where it is, you will probably wind up slightly dead. >And why the silly artificial seeming barriers of distance?? 5 >miles, 25, 100, 500, 1000??? No wonder Foyle was able to surmount >these. So could anyone, if they believed they could...or so we find >out. How did it happen to take so gosh-darn many years before >someone had the nerve to try, and once the outer planet types had >proof that someone had jaunted 650,000 miles, why did they need >Foyle?? They should just go out and do it themselves??? Where's >their initiative? The man was UNCONSCIOUS when he jaunted that far. >What made them think, even if they caught him, that he could tell >them anything about how he did it? Actually, several had tried, and failed miserably (and fatally). Foyle did not know where Nomad was, and yet he was able to jaunt there. That was in fact what was different about his ability, that he could jaunt somewhere (somewhen) without the conscious visualization of LES that was required by everybody else before. As to how they expected to get the info, they were able to figure out how Jaunt did it, they could study Foyle in the same manner. >A character that can only see in infra-red vision??? And why should >that prevent her from jaunting?? She can SEE after all. She can >tell where she is. Just because it looks different from how other >people see it... A mutation. Maybe her parents were around Dillingham too much %). But she could not get enough LES information to be able to visualize both her current location's coordinates and the relative coordinates of where she wanted to go. >Moreover, if visualizing is so all fired important that you must >actually SEE a place before you can go there by jaunting, I really >don't see how they can expect to go to the stars. But the end of >the book was about as clear as the end of _2001_ on this..lots of >colors (scenes) but no explanation. Then he passes out. The end. As I said, this is where Gully Foyle was different, and the end of book hinted that he was indeed able to teach how he did it. I thought the novel was rather good and have reread it a couple of times in the last thirty-or-so years. By the way, the novel is included in Boucher's 2-volume anthology: _A_Treasury_of_Great_Science_Fiction_, which ought to be available in most libraries that have a half-decent SF section. Harold S. Wyzansky wyzansky@nadc.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 87 18:22:35 GMT From: batoma@LLL-TIS.ARPA (Burt Toma) Subject: Re: Sphere by Michael Crichton In response to hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai)'s query about SPHERE by Michael Crichton: SPHERE is about an alleged UFO found abandoned in the middle of the Pacific (near Tonga). The navy assembles a group of scientists (among them a psychoanalyst) to investigate the craft. From there, the plot really takes off and Crichton weaves in so many twists and counter-twists that it always keeps you guessing. The suspense is almost palpable. For those of you that read Andromeda Strain and (like me) abhorred the "cop-out" ending, fear not -- Sphere is well-written from cover to cover. It is also not as technical as Andromeda Strain or Congo (good or bad, however you take it). A final note: the book is very new and has not been published in paperback. I paid $17 for the hard cover version, but I felt that it was worth it because Crichton is definitely my favorite SF author. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 22:04:52 GMT From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly) Subject: Sphere by Michael Crichton cardboard characters and inaccurate science; it fails as mainstream fiction and as SF. Some SF is entertaining in spite of its defects because the storyline or SF premise is interesting: "Sphere" fails on these counts, too. My comments are presented as assertions about the reviewed book because I find reviews that are full of "in my opinions" wimpy. All comments are, of course, my opinion: disagree with them if you like, but don't flame me for having opinions. Item (5) below contains mild spoilers, but it's vague enough that I don't think it will spoil anyone's fun. Wait for the paperback edition on this one, folks; it's a stinker. If you really have to read it you might check it out at your local library. "Sphere" fails as fiction and as SF for several reasons: (1) It's full of glaring scientific inaccuracies. At one point, a zoologist says: "...You know an octopus is smarter than a dog, and would probably make a much better pet..." An octopus may be the smartest invertebrate, but it's no match for a dog intellectually. At another point, text starts appearing on a CRT in spiral format (!) and one of the characters starts talking about "askey codes." I'm not very familiar with coding theory, but my assumption is that Crichton really wanted to talk about ASCII codes (my apologies to him if there really is something called an "askey code"). And anyone who knows how a CRT works knows that you can't get spiral text on a plain old terminal. (2) It's full of other inaccuracies as well. Consider this passage: "... The alarm on his chest badge began to beep. He looked down at it. Even in the darkness, he could see it was now gray..." At the time, the character was in a lab with a sealed water-tight hatch about 1000 feet below the ocean's surface. There was no mention of windows, and even if there were there wouldn't be enough light from the surface to see a badge. (3) It's poorly written, abounding in cliches ("...Beth Halpern, the team zoologist, was a study in contrasts..."), flat and uninteresting writing ("...After two hours of monotony, the cluster of ships appeared unusually interesting..."), and unclear or ambiguous writing ("...Barnes hesitated just a fraction before answering [NOTE: a fraction of WHAT??]..."). (4) Finally, the characters are poorly drawn and some of them are downright annoying. It's a pretty sad situation when the reader starts cheering when one of the good guys gets killed off. The single most annoying and unbelievable character in the book is Ted Fielding, an astrophysicist, who is a cartoon character constantly annoying the readers with his cliched quotations from "literature." Check out THIS ridiculous exchange: "'...This is exciting!' Ted said. 'Fantastic! Unbelievable!' 'So,' Barnes said, still watching Harry, 'you should all get a good night's sleep if you can.' 'Innocent sleep, sleep that knits up the ravell'd sleave of care,' Ted said. He was literally bobbing up and down in his chair with excitement..." This has to be one of the most hilarious bits of dialogue I've ever seen in fiction. It rivals the dialogue in the movie "Plan 9 From Outer Space." I'd be totally embarrassed if I'd written it. (5) The storyline is basically not that interesting. Somebody finds what appears to be an alien artifact, people are sent to investigate the artifact, the artifact does things to some of the people, there are crises, the crises are resolved, at the end the artifact is still an enigma. Ho Hum. How many times are second-rate writers going to redo this worn old SF theme? Anyone out there want to buy a slightly-used copy of "Sphere?" :-) Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 12:06:00 EDT From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" Subject: Re: Belgariad From: th@tcom.stc.co.uk (Tony Hutchinson) >And now the big question...I've heard rumours on this group about a >sequel. Are they true ? And if so, when can we expect it ? The sequel should be out and in the stores in hardcover at this very moment. The first book is called GUARDIANS OF THE WEST. The series of five new books is called the "Mallorean". He plans to also have two prequels to the Belgariad. I got this information from Walden Books' APR/MAY XIGNALS interview with Eddings. NEIL A. OTTENSTEIN Arpanet: OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU Bitnet: OTTEN@UMCINCOM ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 12:06:00 EDT From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" Subject: Pern From: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks) >Second: Anyone out there know when (or If) the next story in 'The >Dragonriders of Pern' is coming out? In the June Locus p. 7 they say that McCaffrey is finishing up DRAGONS DAWN for summer 1988 Del Rey publication. NEIL A. OTTENSTEIN Arpanet: OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU Bitnet: OTTEN@UMCINCOM ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 87 14:15:17 GMT From: think!craig@RUTGERS.EDU (Craig Stanfill) Subject: Tolkien/racism (long) In this posting, I will talk about the way things work in Middle Earth, rather than speculate about Tolkien's possible beliefs. First, parentage is of paramount importance. Aragorn is destined to be great, not because of who he is but because of who his ancestors were. More precisely, the male heir inherits the full stature of the father. Second, no amount of time dilutes this principle. Aragorn traces his ancestry back to the Elf friends of the first age, and through Tinuviel to the Eldar and even to the Maiar (am I correct in his lineage? I've never traced it out in that much detail). This ancestry is the reason, and the sole reason, for his POTENTIAL greatness (potential in that he could have failed to realize his potential). Third, this applies to entire peoples. The Dunedain (including the men of Gondor) are descended from the First Age Elf-friends. Essentially all other men are descended from peoples of lesser stature who have aided the Enemy for ages; ten of these are scarcely worth one of the Dunedain (in battle, in song, etc.). This stature is reflected in height, intelligence, and length of life. Fourth, this increased stature is (I believe) a gift from the Valar, a reward for their faithfulness in the wars of the First Age; the gift is inherited from generation to generation. Fifth, it is difficult to rise above one's ancestry, but it does happen: the Rohirrim have, as a result of their long alliance with Gondor, gained stature, and their Kings are only a little below the Kings of Gondor. Even more strikingly, Frodo: who has nothing at all to boast of, in terms of ancestry, yet does what the mighty could not hope to accomplish. Finally, as a note, things work very differently for Men and Elves: successive generations of Elves decline in stature, so when Gil-Galad died (e.g.), all were correct in saying his like would not be seen again in Middle Earth; his children could not hope to attain his stature. As Legolas remarked (with a touch of iroy), men often fail in their promise, but rarely in their seed. Tolkien has created a world which is, in a sense, both classist and racist: the pedigree of a man, and the ancestry of a people, have a very large role in determining who one is. BUT: something of this nature is inevitable if you want to write about a world in which nobility of birth has real meaning. Here Tolkien has taken a concept from the mythos he was drawing on (including the King as Hero), and elevating it to a fundamental part of the way things work. Is this good or bad? I find the concept, taken in the abstract, repulsive, and would not want to live in such a world. But, in terms of literature, it works. Would Lord of the Rings be the same without Aragorn, this no-body from no-where (who just happens to be the highest-born man in the world), jumping in and leading the armies of the West? I think not. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 87 15:09:51 GMT From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks) Subject: Re: Tolkien (Light and Dark) pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes: > The gist of the theory was that Tolkien's world was an aparteid >allegory based on the fact that all all the good guys were white >skinned and fair haired etc. Whilst the bad guys were black or, in >the case of Saruman ceased to be white when they changed >allegiance. The imagery of lightness = good and darkness = evil is a very old one, found in many mythologies upon which Tolkien drew. It is unfortunate but inevitable that such powerful symbols have then been associated with racial characteristics such as skin color which have undoubtedly evolved as a protective device against overexposure to sunlight. Reading Tolkien's Letters, I find nothing to support any racist motives, although Tolkien certainly could be described as conservative. Interestingly enough, there is one letter which was sent to Tolkien by a German during the Nazi era asking if his name was Jewish. He replied that to his regret, he did not have the honor of it being such. This showed his attitude toward the treatment of the Jews at that time. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Jun 87 0801-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #297 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jun 87 0801-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #297 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 297 Today's Topics: Books - Barnes & Brin (3 msgs) & Crichton & Eddings & Gibson & Spider Robinson & Wells & Williamson & Zelazny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Jun 87 20:28:19 GMT From: mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Steve Barnes farren@hoptoad.uucp (Mike Farren) writes: > And for other covers with non-black blacks, how about Steve > Barnes' "Street Lethal", which had a black protagonist, and was > written by a black, but whose cover featured a guy who was, if > anything, Indian. As an aside about Steve Barnes' writing, I think he has a real talent for description. To try to convince you of this, I'll do about the same thing that (if I'm remembering right) Niven does to show off Saberhagen's flair for description in a lead-in to _The_ _Empire_ _of_ _the_ _East_, where he quotes the description of the fight between Zapranoth and Drafut (great stuff, by the way, to put an aside inside an aside). In this case, I'll quote Barnes' description of part of the fight between Dearborne and Shackley, two of the characters in _The_ _Kundalini_ _Equation_. The following excerpts are from the climax of the story, so you might not want to read them if you are spoiler sensitive. Dearborne fights as a berserker might, and Shackley is a highly trained martial artist. *** POSSIBLE SPOILER: *** [...] Dearborne's civilized veneer fell from him like a skin of ice, and with an impossibly swift lunge forward, he became a torrent of teeth and nails and murderous insanity. and Shackley's response when finally cornered by Dearborne... [...] now Gates had an opportunity to see just exactly what it was to be a human being at its highest level of efficiency. In a sustained, eye-baffling phrase of movement Shackley's legs and arms, knees and elbows and shoulders cannoned out and snapped back as if his spine were elastic, attaining the percussive speed of the most explosive drum solo in history. If you think at this point that Dearborne is losing the fight, you'd better think again. *** END POSSIBLE SPOILER *** But back to generalities. Despite his impressive flair for description, apparent in both _Streetlethal_ and _The_ _Kundalini_ _Equation_, I tend to get annoyed at Barnes' style. He introduces assumptions and surprises into the story in ways that are too obviously just there to advance the plot or to be striking to the reader, and thus I tend to get jarred out of the story by these surprise twists, rather than just being surprised by them. Despite this, I'd tend to read most anything by Barnes. I don't consider what I've read to be the very best and wouldn't rate any of it higher than **+ or *** on the OtherRealms scale, but it has its moments as above, and I expect he'll improve. Wayne Throop !mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 87 22:19:00 GMT From: petsd!cjh@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Henrich) Subject: Re: The Uplift War srt@CS.UCLA.EDU (Scott "Dr. Pain" Turner) writes: >I just finished reading this, and while I enjoyed it a lot, I was >disappointed with the characterization of the non-human races. [They tend to be just like humans, with some added species-specific foibles.] > >Anyone else bothered by this? Yeah. And when *I* write my first SF novel, my aliens are going to have thoughts that would *never* occur to a human being, such as... ... well... Until we get to know some non-human intelligences, we have a hard time being sure which characteristics of our own psychology are peculiar to our species and which are universal. I agree that non-human characters should not just be humans with added weaknesses; they should have some added strengths as well. But - to imagine these added qualities vividly is a long step towards having them yourself. For instance, suppose, in my unbegun novel, there is a non-human species that are naturally good at "systems" thinking, and much less inclined than we are to seek oversimplified one-directional cause & effect relationships. Now suppose one of these beings is up against a really complicated situation. To tell the story of what (he) does, I have to decide what (he) would do. I have to think like (him). At the very least I have to give my reader the impression that I have done so. Regards, Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 758-7288 ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 15:15:00 GMT From: friedman@m.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: The Uplift War *** Mild Spoiler Warning *** >>The Gubru aren't portrayed as human clones, but their >>psychological adaptment seemed curiously lacking. You'd expect a >>rather different view of the world from an avian, but the >>differences Brin portrays do not seem related to the racial >>background. The Triumvarite and its reflection in the Gubru >>language (the tripling of verbs - but shouldn't the verbs have >>reflected the Military, Religion and Accounting of the sentence, >>not be synonyms?) was neat and well done, but a rather shallow >>characterization. > >I agree with your comments above. However, compared to _Startide >Rising_, the Gubru were fairly well depicted. In SR, there were >about 15 different Galactics, none of which were developed at all. 1) I disagree; I though the Gubru were rather well portrayed, and were quite different from the Terrans (humans and chims). I certainly didn't expect a world view based on flight; remember, they only had vestigial wings. By the way, the tripling wasn't just verbs; check the novel. At least as often, some other key word or phrase in the sentence was tripled. And toward the end, when the new queen is losing one of her mates, she doubles rather than triples some phrases. Nice touch. 2) In SR, a few of the Galactics are developed to a degree appropriate to subsidiary characters. The best developed is the Soro fleet-mother, Krat. Another almost as well done was the Synthian sneak observer (can't recall her name), with her corps of little clients (Wasoon?). I felt bad when her ship was flung out into space.... ------------------------------ Date: 22 June 1987 18:07:55 CDT From: Subject: Uplift War by David Brin haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes: >I think David Brin has been looking at the Covenant books with >envy. Now *he's* branching out into 'improved English'. From one >paragraph [italics mine]: > "...and of course a gaggle of *cachinatous* humans... She > remembered her attitude then, upon seeing so many of the > *atrichic, bromopnean* creatures." >With a good dictionary, a decent language background, and knowledge >of context, one can figure out what the words mean. 20% of a good dictionary would nearly suffice. 90% of the words I looked up started with "a", "b", or "c". There were no d's, and perhaps a couple e's and f's. There was only one word I looked up which started with a letter in the last half of the alphabet: "nulutative" -- couldn't find it in Webster's 2nd; does it have any connotation of "skeptical"? Seems likely to me that this was intentional on Brin's part, having seen other examples of incidental word play in his oeuvres. Remember the "zievatron" in _The Practice Effect_? If a Bevatron generates a billion electron volts, and a Tevatron generates a trillion ev, ... . Actually, I thought Brin's uncommon word choice was sometimes justified. For example, there's probably no simple substitute for "allochrous". However, for the most part, I don't think obscure words add anything to Brin's stories, whereas they are essential to, say, Gene Wolfe's, or to the works of such scholarly word-smiths as the Inklings (Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, et al). By the way, has Gene Wolfe ever produced a complete glossary for _The Book of the New Sun_? I really enjoyed the glossary for _The Shadow of the Torturer_ which he included in _The Castle of the Otter_. Paul R. Pudaite ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 10:58 PDT From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD From: Subject: THE SPHERE by Crichton (liner notes) "In the middle of the South Pacific, a thousand feet below the surface of the water, a huge spaceship is discovered resting on the ocean floor... Rushed to the scene is a group of American scientists who descend together into the depths of the sea to investigate this astonishing discovery. What they find defies their imaginations and mocks their attempts at logical explanation. It is a spaceship of phenomenal dimensions, appartently undamaged by its fall from the sky. And, most startling, it appears to be at least 300 years old... Has the ship come from an alien culture? From a different universe? From the future? Why, initially, are there no creatures on the sea floor, and then, suddenly, swarms of "impossible animals," of whole new species? Who--or what--is transmitting messages onto the scientists' computer screen...messages that frow increasingly hostile? What is the giant, perfect, metallic sphere-- clearly not made by man, and seemingly impendetrable by him--that they find inside the spaceship? And--most crucially--what is the extraordinary, the terrifying power that threatens their undersea habitat, and then their very lives..." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 87 17:39 EST From: Matt Kimmel Subject: Re: Belgariad Yes, there is indeed a sequel to thhe Belgariad. It's called "The Mallorean", and the first book, "Guardians of the West", is out in hardcover now. It was very good. The new series looks promising. (WARNING - Mild Spoilers Ahead - Nothing more than what's on the cover - Do not read if you have not finished the Belgariad) The book starts about six weeks after the end of the Belgariad. It starts out calmly, but the plot quickly develops. It seems that the prophecy is not yet fulfilled. There will be one more confrontation between the Child of Light and the Child of Dark. Not only that, but 'Zakath is organizing the Malloreans for a war against the West, and the Bear-Cult is making trouble. All of the characters from the Belgariad are in this one, as well as some new ones. It promises to be just as good as the Belgariad. (See? Those weren't too bad) It's definitely worth buying in hardcover. I think it's discounted if you're a member of Waldenbooks' Science Fiction & Fantasy Club. Does anyone know when the second book, "King of the Murgos", is coming out? Matt Kimmel, KIMMEL@UMAECS (BITNet) KIMMEL@ECS.UMASS.EDU (CSNet) KIMMEL%ECS.UMASS.EDU@RELAY.CS.NET (Internet) ...!seismo!UMAECS.BITNET!kimmel (UUCP) ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 87 16:09:38 EDT From: JVHWKZA Subject: Gibson-like Sci-Fi I am relatively new at this so if this has been discussed before please excuse the duplication. I have recently read _Neuromancer_ and _Count Zero_ both by William Gibson. I was wondering if there are any other books/authors that fall into the same genre as the those two stories. This is the first Sci-Fi I have ever read that I felt envious of the characters because they were there and I wasn't! Thanks in advance for any help!! Keith E Aylsworth AKA Cyberpunk BITNET: JVHWKZA@IUP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 87 13:50:17 EDT From: LT Sheri Smith USN Subject: Spider Robinson & RAH The same day I posted a previous comment on Telempath being the only thing I'd read by SR, I also jotted down in my little grey notebook (wherein I jot down noteworthy things) that the Callahan's Bar series sounded interesting. I also read in the <>(available on arpanet) that coincidences are everything...and that thinking about something just before it suddenly occurs is really only coincidental. Bearing that in mind, I have an "only a coincidence" to report: That very same evening I went charging down to Washington National Airport, arriving breathlessly only 2 minutes after the plane was due...about 20 minutes before it showed up. Having neglected to bring something to do while I waited, I was pawing through the book stand (which is pretty grim in the Commuter Terminal). I overturned a bound stack of month old magazines in the back of the bottom shelf (had read everthing else on the shelves above) and there was a paper back "left library book"...._Callahan's Secret_!!! I was able to talk the clerk into letting me have it, once I pointed out the due date in the back...8 May 87, for the Warwick Library. I finished it in 2 nights, even with company.... I am, and have been for many years, a considered RAH fan. The adjective is because he used to be my favorite writer. Then came grokking, over which I shrugged and said, "Everyone has bad days." But with Number of the Beast, I gave up entirely. I do like _Friday_, but simply refuse to read _Job_, _Cat_ and anything from there on out. But! I very much like SR's 2 books, and almost all of RAH's older stuff. I don't see any inconsistency with that...why shouldn't I be able to appreciate more than one writer's style??? Sheri (PS Loved the preface to _Callahan's Secret_...was terribly dissappointed to learn he's already happily wed. Sigh!! 8-) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 87 20:49:00 GMT From: silber@p.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: H.G. WELLS Are there any H.G. Wells fans out there? I, myself, particularly enjoyed his short stories, especially those in a somewhat fantasy related vein. There was one about a man who visited a strange alter world, and came back reversed, another about a "Christmas Egg" which enabled one to see into another world, and a very interesting one about a man who's dreams seemed to be the waking life of someone in the future. I really think that Well's tends to be overlooked these days. ami silberman ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 17:57:48 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: re: Another missing book >...The "hero" of the story is a partially conditioned, galactic, >civil servant who has falsified his files... He will judge whether >or not Earth is ready for contact. At the Moon base awaiting the >decision are missionaries, traders, anthropologists, etc all >waiting for our hero to make his decision... "The Trial of Terra", by Jack Williamson. Ace published it as a $0.35 paperback. I don't know whether it's been reissued. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 87 01:48:40 GMT From: mdk@cblpf.att.com (Michael D King) Subject: Re: Sign of Chaos From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) >The latest Publisher's Weekly has the announcement on the new >Zelazny book. Sign of Chaos, the third in the second trilogy of >Amber, will be published by Arbor House in hardback in October. > >Also, Locus announced that Zelazny has signed for two more Amber >books, bringing the size of the second Amber trilogy to a total of >five books (which matches the size of the first trilogy, for that >matter). > >So don't expect this book to finalize everything.... I really enjoyed the original Amber series, but this new collection is ridiculous. After I read _Trumps of Doom_ with its obvious I'm-going-to- continue-this-in-a-sequel ending, I was ready to say "Fat chance!" I don't mind novels blossoming into a series, but when it is so obvious, especially from a writer of Zelazny's caliber, it borders on the ludicrous. Now we hear that it is going to be thumping along for four more books? Come on! As short as each of the books will be (I am assuming that the rest of the series will be a skimpy as the first) why not package them in two volumes. Oh well, Madison Avenue strikes again! Mike King ..!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Jun 87 0816-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #298 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jun 87 0816-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #298 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 298 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (15 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Jun 87 09:15:19 GMT From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia bryan@druhi.ATT.COM (BryanJT) writes: [Lots of text deleted....] >I just wasn't being clear, I guess. I know Scotty sometimes >commands, But never the other occasional engineering types who sit >at the engineering console. Actually, that one wasn't your fault. I re-read it after answering it, & said to myself, "Oops! THAT'S what he meant!" You were clear, I just mis-understood you. >Notice, too, that Uhura wears red, which seems to be the >Engineering color, not Science (Science is blue, Command is that >yucky gold color). True, she wears a red uniform, but then so do Security personel, and they SURE aren't engineering! :-) >I tend to agree with your analysis that there are basically three >specialties: Command, Engineering, and Science, and I would expect >top command in space to typically bypass Sciences and Engineering >in favor of Command personnel. On the other hand, the senior-most >members of other groups (Chief Engineer, Chief Science Officer) are >probably more command-oriented than technical specialists. Not >having any Navy experience to fall back on, I have to rely on >common sense instead :). I'm afraid that I must confess that I don't have any military experience to fall back on either, but I like to think that after 20+ years of being a Trekkie, I have an idea (the bearest hint of) how things more-or-less work in Star Fleet (this is NOT to say that I think that you don't!). :-) I've got a friend who used to be a Marine who's almost as big of a fan as I am, and has a reasonable idea of how chain-of-command works, so I try to turn to him on those tricky ones! David Guntner UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 06:48:09 GMT From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates) Subject: Star Trek -- Ensigns and Crewmen bryan@druhi.att.com (BryanJT) writes: >I always assumed that Lt. Uhura was a technical specialist holding >the rank of an officer to qualify her as a bridge-crew member >(clearances and that sort of thing maybe) but not in the >line-of-command. Ensign Chekov, while not fully an officer, is >clearly in training for a line assignment and might be permitted to >assume command responsibility. ... Yet another proof that the ST chain of command was drivel. "Ensign', so far as I can determine, has always been a commissioned officer in every armed force which has employed the rank. Depending which episode we wish to cite, an ensign is an officer or an enlisted man. Many episodes contains Chiefs and crewmen, while others appear to contain nothing but officers. Worse, many contain no evidence of anyone who isn't a lieutenant except for Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty and Chekov. Robert A. West Q4071@PUCC US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place Suite A North Brunswick, NJ 08902 VOICE : (201) 821-7055 ...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071 ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 09:35:00 GMT From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia Thanks for the information regarding how the Navy command structure works. I really didn't have any idea as to how it works. This is Star Trek, though, and Star Fleet is not really Navy (in the episode where the Enterprise found a black hole the hard way and the crew found themselves in a low orbit around Earth in the past, Kirk said in answer to the USAF's fighter pilot who they had taken aboard question, "We're a combined service"). Maybe ST:TNG will follow a command structure that's a little more logical. Please bear in mind that the answer I gave was one to try and find the most plausible reason for some obvious (sp?) inconstancies (I'd much rather do that then say that Star Fleet is being run buy a bunch of sexist pigs! :-) Bear also in mind that GR had a hell of a time with the network people - he originally wanted the ship to be populated by 50% women and they wouldn't let him do it.... they finally let him have 30%. The truth of the matter probably is that the network would have had a fit if he had tried to let Uhura have the con). David Guntner UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 87 12:34:06 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) From: Subject: Star Trek novels I have to take exception with the statement that Star Trek novels are badly written. True, there are some turkeys (Mutiny on the Enterprise springs to mind), but others like THE FINAL REFLECTION and THE WOUNDED SKY are classics in they're own right, not just as part of a classic series (no flames please). The current novel, DREAMS OF THE RAVEN, is an excellent look at Dr. McCoy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 87 16:48 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: The Next Generation Cc: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) >I'd be REAL careful about mentioning you have something that has >not been released to the public and is under Paramount copyright. >Fans get lots of things like this, but mentioning it on the net is >not smart. In my opinion. It HAS been released, and is sold by Lincoln Enterprises, run by Majel Barrett Roddenberry. It's not in the catalog I have, but interested folks could probably write for the price if they're interested. P.O. Box 691370; Los Angeles, CA 90069. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 87 16:53 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: The Next Generation Cc: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!bones@RUTGERS.EDU I don't think there are many fans who are upset about ST returning to tv. I know Mary Lou Dodge says The Globe completely misquoted her. Sounds like they really had to go out of their way to make the fans look bad. Lisa Wahl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 87 17:09 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM Subject: Star Trek Yes, Uhura did get command in the animated episode "The Lorelei Signal" but I hardly think that counted. I remember reading something, before the animateds came out saying "And Uhura finally gets command!" But it's only because ALL the men on the ship were incapacitated. Rumors from the con circuit are that the transwarp experiment failed and the new warp system IS NOT transwarp. Darned if I know what it is, though. Lisa Wahl ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 17:42:23 PDT (Thursday) Subject: Re: ST:TNG Warp Drive From: Josh Susser I also remember hearing somewhere that warp n = (n**3)*c, but that does appear to be wrong. "That Which Survives" was on this week, and provides an interesting data point. In this episode, the Enterprise travels roughly 990.7 light years at warp 8.4 in about 11.47 hours. A little math shows that warp 8.4 = 86.4 light years/hour = 756628.8 c = (8.4**6.36)*c Being a good scientist, I found a second data point when a friend reminded me that in "Bread and Circuses" the Enterprise travels the last sixteenth of a parsec in about 30 seconds. Assuming a standard cruising speed of warp 6, we get warp 6 = 0.41 light years/minute = 214839 c = (6**6.85)*c Unfortunately, this is almost 25 light years/hour. Oh well, it only an order of magnitude :-) Anyway, following Robert West's suggestion of using a natural constant like 2pi in the formula, this gives warp n = (n**2pi)*c This even allows one to include the old reference of warp n = (n**3)*c as accurate, but only for older model warp engines. The Enterprise just has a higher order warp curve. Acknowledgements: profuse thanks to Kurt Piersol for being there when my brain needed him. Josh Susser.pasa@Xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 87 00:17:50 EDT From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu Subject: On Star Trek chain of command and other foolishness I am amused at the horde of letters inspired by the fictional Enterprise "chain of command." Shall we make the following concessions to logic, honesty, and reality? That in no logical situation, with trained landing teams available, would Kirk and other command officers beam down to a planet to gather info or anything of the sort. Indeed, in many terrestrial military vessels and units, such actions are often deemed deserting one's post. Let's face it. Kirk's job should have been to stay on his ship, receive reports, and make dispassionate decisions. Similarly with the other senior personnel, with the possible exception of Spock. It gets even more ridiculous with the CO, the Exec, AND the 3rd in command (Kirk/Spock/Sulu) beaming down on some occasions. Chalk this down to what plays on TV, pure and simple. Let's not waste our typing time trying to justify the illogical. That Uhura didn't conn the ship for two simple reasons: race and sex. Roddenberry admitted just that in more than one interview. Shall we let rationales here drop too? That considering the proper role and duties of an executive officer, Spock would have never done? Yes, yes, I know, Spock is incredibly able, smart, the perfect officer, and so on and so on. That hardly excuses the logical fact that when the CO is unable to conn the ship, for whatever reason, the exec's place is ON THE BRIDGE. Period. Since science officers beam down to planets and suchlike...however able, Spock lacks the capacity for creating a duplicate of himself to be two places at once. The Star Trek series was designed as entertainment, not as an accurate depiction or extrapolation of military practices or protocol, either now or in the forseeable future. As far as a Klingon on the crew, the rumor may have sprung from the DC Star Trek comic book, in which a Klingon has been a member of Kirk's crew for some time now. Whether this will find its way onto ST:TNG is unfounded, as far as I've heard, but it's an awfully interesting conceit... Robert G. Traynor UMass-Boston ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 20:19:27 GMT From: hao!nbires!cadnetix!pem@RUTGERS.EDU (Paul Meyer) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia Ok, it's time for me to put in my $2x10^-2 worth. Has everybody forgotten that Chekov (unlike, for example, Uhura) is a line officer in training to someday command a starship? As part of his training he might well be given the conn at times when it would be valuable practice for him without endangering the ship. This being so, Kirk's action at the end of _Journey to Babel_ is a strong if implicit statement that he expects the time he is in sickbay to be placid. pem@cadnetix.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 02:36:03 GMT From: griffith@cory.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia McCoy's rank, according to "Court Martial", is Lieutenant Commander, putting him on an equal footing with Scotty, although I agree with your thought that his unstable mental state makes him poor command material. Also, I would like to make a correction to an earlier posting which broke down the crew into three categories. The third included Security, Communications, and Engineering. I would like to suggest that this group be reclassified "Ship's Services", since those three mainly affect the Enterprise only. OK, some nit-pickers are gonna gripe that Communications affects both parties involved, and sure, Scotty prevented that mining planet from going kablooey, and Security is always phasering innocent peasants, but you get the idea. Besides, I've heard that phrase used to describe that group on this net before. Jim Griffith ...!ucbvax!cory!griffith ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 13:05:15 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: Re: The Next Generation From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM >>I'd be REAL careful about mentioning you have something that has >>not been released to the public and is under Paramount copyright. >>Fans get lots of things like this, but mentioning it on the net is >>not smart. In my opinion. > >It HAS been released, and is sold by Lincoln Enterprises, run by >Majel Barrett Roddenberry. It's not in the catalog I have, but >interested folks could probably write for the price if they're >interested. P.O. Box 691370; Los Angeles, CA 90069. So I have since discovered. My apologies, I was under the impression (from usually very good sources) that the guide wasn't going to be released until after the show was on the air, but I guess Majel decided to go ahead. All the better, I've been itching to talk about some of what's written in it for quite a while. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 13:12:06 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: Re: On Star Trek chain of command and other foolishness From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu > That in no logical situation, with trained landing teams >available, would Kirk and other command officers beam down to a >planet to gather info Star Trek is based to a great extent on C.S. Forester's Horatio Hornblower stories. Hornblower did often lead shore parties, so Kirk does. Besides...Shatner was the star :-). > The Star Trek series was designed as entertainment, not as an >accurate depiction or extrapolation of military practices or >protocol, either now or in the forseeable future. No question, but people like to come up with explanations as an exercise if nothing else (at least I hope that's all it is). Let them have their fun, ok. I even do it occasionally. (Wanna hear my explanation on 1 ly/hr?) > As far as a Klingon on the crew, the rumor may have sprung from >the DC Star Trek comic book, in which a Klingon has been a member >of Kirk's crew for some time now. Whether this will find its way >onto ST:TNG is unfounded, as far as I've heard, but it's an awfully >interesting conceit... It's in the writer's guide that Klingon has joined the Federation, and Klingon crewmembers are showing up in Starfleet. How soon we'll see one is anybody's guess (But I'd say not in the first 1/2 dozen episodes since Roddenberry has said he wants to stay away from known "aliens" for a while). Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 14:37:02 GMT From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte) Subject: Re: ST:TNG Warp Drive Susser.pasa@Xerox.COM writes: >"That Which Survives" was on this week, and provides an interesting >data point. In this episode, the Enterprise travels roughly 990.7 >light years at warp 8.4 in about 11.47 hours. A little math shows >that [...] The _Enterprise_ wasn't always going warp 8.4 during those 990.7 ly, though. The image of Losira sabotaged the warp engines, and at one point, just before Scotty fixed things by using that wonderful panacea REVERSE POLARITY, the _Enterprise_ was going warp 14.1. But why bother? Matthew Belmonte Internet: BITNET: UUCP: ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 00:59:13 GMT From: drp@lll-lcc.arpa (David Preston) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner) writes: >of course! :-)) are Command, and Scotty, of course, is Engineering. >Probably the reason that Scotty is given command at times is >because he is, after Kirk and Spock, the most senior officer on >board the Enterprise. I thought McCoy was the most senior officer after K&S; in Menagerie, Spock surrendered to McCoy, after explaining to him that he had committed mutiny, and that it was up to McCoy to arrest him as the most senior officer. Of course, McCoy was not in a command position(I'm a DOCTOR not a Starship Captain :-) david ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Jun 87 0829-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #299 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jun 87 0829-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #299 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 299 Today's Topics: Books - Lovecraft (16 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Jun 87 08:38 CDT From: SHERZER%NGSTL1%eg.ti.com@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: Lovecraft My personal favorite is a story called either "In the vault" or "In the crypt". It is about a man stuck inside a crypt for a night and how he gets out. Read it with just enough light to see and in a thunderstorm. Allen Sherzer sherzer%ngstl1@ti-eg.csnet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 87 11:32:52 EDT From: Jeremy Bornstein Subject: H.P. Lovecraft People who are interested in H.P. Lovecraft might also be interested in the films _Reanimator_ and _From Beyond_, both adaptions of stories of his. _From Beyond_ just came out recently, and I believe it is from a story of the same name. _Reanimator_ is about 3 years old and I'm not sure what story it's from. Neither movie has much to do with the Cthulhu mythos, but are quite enjoyable horror films, if you like blood and gore. Both films were directed by the same person, whose name, of course, escapes me. Jeremy Bornstein ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 87 11:32 EDT From: Subject: Lovecraft movies Someone was hoping for movies based on certain Lovecraft stories, including _At the Mountains of Madness_. I think your best bet is to see the remake of _The Thing_ (John Carpenter). Antarctic research station confronts old, alien, extremely malevolent thing (for lack of a better word) frozen in the ice for some thousands of years. While more SF than Mythos, I would suspect Carpenter was inspired by Lovecraft on this one. It will definitely give you disturbing dreams. The obvious trivia bit in this movie is that the original movie is showing in the background on one of the TV sets. Greg Porter PORTERG@VCUVAX (Bitnet) ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 17:09:07 GMT From: stokes@hao.ucar.edu (Stokes Project) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft To complete Jeremy's comments, the director who made both _From Beyond_ and _Reanimator_ was John Landis, who has also done _Kentucky Fried Movie_ and other greats. Ken Luther NCAR/HAO Boulder, Co. 80302 ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 08:12:29 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) Subject: Re: Lovecraft (I should know better than this but it's better than Heinlein bashing.) Can someone please explain to me what they like about Lovecraft and horror stories in general? I have read one Lovecraft story in my life (sorry, don't remember the name) and found it to be incredibly boring. The few horror stories I've read never come to a satisfactory conclusion (i.e. not even a hint of why the unusual phenomenon is occurring). This may be a requirement of the genre, but I find it rather frustrating. I suppose this is all a matter of taste, but I'd like someone to explain what they like about horror. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 21:24:11 GMT From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Lovecraft dant@tekla.UUCP (Dan Tilque) writes: >The few horror stories I've read never come to a satisfactory >conclusion (i.e. not even a hint of why the unusual phenomenon is >occurring). This may be a requirement of the genre, but I find it >rather frustrating. Horror (dark fantasy) is not science fiction, just as light fantasy is not science fiction. I enjoy reading a good horror or ghost story for the same reason some people like to ride a roller coaster: it's scary but I know that I'm not in any real danger. If you demand logic and coherent explanations of phenomena in your fiction, you probably will not enjoy most horror fiction. A horror writer who overexplains the horror in his book does a disservice to his readers: it's the uncertainty and mystery that in large part makes horror enjoyable. Lovecraft's batrachian beasts and things from beyond the stars are very effective because they suggest that there are aspects to reality that are forever beyond our understanding. In short, I think the best horror plays on our fear of the unknown: it may be our fear of the unknown in the natural (or unnatural) world, our fear of other humans, or even our fear that our own bodies may (will) someday revolt against us (see, for example, Clive Barker's story about the revolt of the hands in "The Inhuman Condition:" the revolt is, in a sense, a metaphor for disease and horrifies for that reason). Various authors have written in defense of horror fiction, claiming that it has a certain purgative effect on the psyche: it allows us to work out our fears in a safe manner. I'm not sure I'm ready to buy this argument, but it has a certain appeal. Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 13:47:14 GMT From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft From: Jeremy Bornstein > _Reanimator_ is about 3 years old and I'm not sure what story it's >from. Neither movie has much to do with the Cthulhu mythos, but >are quite enjoyable horror films, if you like blood and gore. REANIMATOR is an adaptation of "Herbert West -- Reanimator", which is actually a series of 6 shorter stories. It's tangential to the Mythos, in that part of the action takes place in Arkham (according to Lin Carter, a mere mention of "Arkham" or "Necronomicon" isn't enough to make a Mythos story, but I disagree; at the very least, such mentions suggest a story set in the same "continuity" as the Mythos). A couple of the shorter stories are pretty good, but as a whole, it's one of HPL worst: the "shock ending" always revolves around some aspect of reanimation. Gets tiresome after 4 or so variations. I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if it manages to avoid the same feeling, though I can imagine such a "theme and variations" method working in a film. Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP:{ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje ARPA:JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 14:22:45 GMT From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) Subject: Re: Lovecraft dant@tekla.TEK.COM (Dan Tilque) writes: > Can someone please explain to me what they like about Lovecraft > and horror stories in general. I have read one Lovecraft story in > my life (sorry, don't remember the name) and found it to be > incredibly boring. The few horror stories I've read never come to > a satisfactory conclusion (i.e. not even a hint of why the unusual > phenomenon is occurring). This may be a requirement of the genre, > but I find it rather frustrating. Bill Ingolgy has replied with regard to horror in general; go read his article, if you haven't already done so. I like horror in general precisely *because* of that "unsatisfactory conclusion": the notion that there are unexplainable things Out There (From Beyond, if you will). If we encounter one of them, we may consider ourselves lucky to escape alive; we will certainly (in a good horror story, anyway) not escape unscathed. Lovecraft, actually, uses *less* of the inexplicable than other authors. HPL's basic premise is that, long ago, alien (not simply off-world) beings fought a war, in which our planet was involved. The losers were locked away by the victors (giving rise to a host of Armageddon-type myths), but their lesser minions are still free, and they themselves are still trying to get free. Some of HPL's appeal to me is in this premise. The horror usually arises from an innocent learning the truth behind some myths: the fact of the aliens (the Cthulhu Mythos deities). In the best Lovecraft, there's a feeling of discovering an ages-old conspiracy. There's always the feeling that "things are not, in reality, as we think they are", that our reality is actually a thin shell, and we'd be lost if we knew the depth of the cosmic reality beneath that shell. There's also some appeal in the game of the Mythos: authors inventing rare books, new deities, lost cities; giving Mythos explanations to actual mysteries; expanding on matters HPL merely mentioned in passing. Lovecraft's writing style has turned off many people. It was an affectation of 19th century style and was out of place even when he wrote it. Even so, there are some gems. His regular use of dialect also makes the reading hard going: two of his best stories are "The Dunwich Horror" and "The Colour out of Space", yet even these are challenges for the casual reader because of their heavy use of dialect. Yet once you get the spelling patterns down, you find a reasonable reproduction of a heavy New England accent, which lends more to the feeling of authenticity. And that's why I like Lovecraft. Chris Jarocha-Ernst UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 13:13:26 GMT From: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu (Jay Smith) Subject: Re: Lovecraft movies PORTERG@VCUVAX.BITNET writes: >I think your best bet is to see the remake of _The Thing_ (John >Carpenter). I would suspect Carpenter was inspired by Lovecraft on >this one. But wasn't this based on the short story "Who Goes There?" by John W. Campbell? I've never read it, but I heard that the remake follows it more closely than the original film. Jay Smith uucp: ...!mcnc!ncsuvx!ncspm!jay Domain: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu internet: jay%ncspm@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 14:49:02 GMT From: seismo!hadron!inco!mack@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Mack) Subject: Re: Lovecraft movies (Really _The Thing_) From: > Someone was hoping for movies based on certain Lovecraft stories, > including _At the Mountains of Madness_. I think your best bet is > to see the remake of _The Thing_ (John Carpenter). Antarctic > research station confronts old, alien, extremely malevolent thing > (for lack of a better word) frozen in the ice for some thousands > of years. While more SF than Mythos, I would suspect Carpenter > was inspired by Lovecraft on this one. It will definitely give > you disturbing dreams. > The obvious trivia bit in this movie is that the original > movie is showing in the background on one of the TV sets. No way! Carpenter's _The Thing_ (like the 1958 original) was inspired by a novelette by John W. Campbell, Jr. called _Who Goes There?_. Carpenter's version was far more faithful to Campbell's story than the '58 version was, except for the ending. _Who Goes There?_ is probably the best thing Campbell ever wrote. (He was mostly known as an editor (Analog) and anthologist.) Whether Campbell took his inspiration from Lovecraft is an open question, but it seems unlikely. Given Campbell's outlook on life and politics, it is more likely to be a commentary on creeping Communism (Your neighbors, your friends, even your children could be THEM!) As a depiction of paranoia, it's superb. If you can find a copy of this story (not easy), give it a read. Dave Mack McDonnell Douglas-Inco, Inc. 8201 Greensboro Drive McLean, VA 22102 (703)883-3911 ...!seismo!sundc!hadron!inco!mack ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 87 22:59:00 GMT From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu Subject: Lovecraft movies Someone asked about movies based (more or less) on Lovecraft's fiction. Besides Re-Animator and From Beyond, I'm aware of two older movies, The Dunwich Horror and The Shuttered Room. (The Shuttered Room is actually the title of a "posthumous" collaboration between Lovecraft and Derleth). Both are hokey, stupid and boring. And without the sparkle of classic bad movies. Dunwich Horror tries to introduce some lame romantic interest. The title monster really suffers from cheap special effects (a valiant effort tho). Shuttered Room is just soporific, and doesn't have much to do with the original story at all. Don't bother checking out these two. Bill ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 18:37:23 GMT From: jca@drutx.att.com (ArnsonJC) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? As far as I know, HPL only wrote on book that could actually be called a book and not a short story. The title is "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward". Finding a copy may be difficult as I have been told it is out of print. My copy is in paperback by Penguin and the date is 1963(?) jill c. arnson (ulysses/ihnp4)!drutx!jca AT&T ISL, Denver; (303)538-4800 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 87 03:13:22 GMT From: seismo!sun!apple!winter@RUTGERS.EDU (Patty Winter) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? jca@drutx.ATT.COM (ArnsonJC) writes: >As far as I know, HPL only wrote on book that could actually be >called a book and not a short story. The title is "The Case of >Charles Dexter Ward". Finding a copy may be difficult as I have >been told it is out of print. My copy is in paperback by Penguin >and the date is 1963(?) The five-paperback boxed set I have includes this one. The set was published in 1971 by Beagle Books (101 Fifth Ave, NY, NY 10003) "by arrangement with Arkham House." The box is called "The Arkham Edition of H.P. Lovecraft"; publisher's ID # (this was before ISBNs, gang! :-) ) is 99146-475. Don't know whether it's still available. Patty Winter N6BIS (408) 973-2814 M/S 2C, Apple Computer, Inc., 20525 Mariani Ave., Cupertino, CA 95014 {decwrl,nsc,sun,dual}!apple!winter ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 13:13:26 GMT From: aad+@andrew.cmu.edu (Anthony A. Datri) Subject: Re: Lovecraft movies So I'm not the only one who saw a similarity between The Thing and At the Mountains of Madness, eh? It struck me immediately when I saw the movie, but I've never seen any formal acknowledgement of this. There is a movie called "Dr. Strange" or such that seems a whole lot like Hypnos. And the mid-70's movie called Yog seemed to have some elements of The Colour Out Of Space. There was a movie called "20,000,000 Years to Earth" or something like that (I don't have my book with me) that dealt with Londoners finding this buried space ship when they were excavating for a subway or something, and it seemed to me to have some similarities to a Lovecraft story who's name shamefully eludes me at the moment. And of course there are the Night Gallery bits: a full-length story of Pickman's Model, and a 5 minute job where a prof keeps talking about Hastur, and these two bothersome students tell him to be careful, and he turns into Sigmund the Sea Monster. The two students were oddly enough named Mr. Lovecraft and Mr. Derleth. And let's not forget the wonderful late-60's version of The Dunwich Horror starring Stella Stevens ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 19:09:20 GMT From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft stokes@hao.UCAR.EDU (Stokes Project) writes: >To complete Jeremy's comments, the director who made both _From >Beyond_ and _Reanimator_ was John Landis, who has also done >_Kentucky Fried Movie_ and other greats. Argghh! It was Stuart Gordon, NOT John Landis, who did the Empire Productions Lovecraft films. Both films also starred Jeffrey Combs. Evelyn C. Leeper (201) 957-2070 UUCP: ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl ARPA: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 20:46:49 GMT From: robert@spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes: >Argghh! It was Stuart Gordon, NOT John Landis, who did the Empire >Productions Lovecraft films. Both films also starred Jeffrey >Combs. *And* Barbara Crampton!!!! homona..homona...homona...drool... Robert Allen, robert@spam.istc.sri.com ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Jun 87 0901-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #300 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jun 87 0901-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #300 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 300 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Jun 87 21:04:22 GMT From: seismo!ism780c!logico!slovax!flak@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Flak) Subject: Re: Tolkien/racism (long) Craig Stanfill writes: > In this posting, I will talk about the way things work in Middle > Earth, rather than speculate about Tolkien's possible beliefs. I'll keep that in mind. > Tolkien has created a world which is, in a sense, both classist > and racist: the pedigree of a man, and the ancestry of a people, > have a very large role in determining who one is. BUT: something > of this nature is inevitable if you want to write about a world in > which nobility of birth has real meaning. Here Tolkien has taken > a concept from the mythos he was drawing on (including the King as > Hero), and elevating it to a fundamental part of the way things > work. I agree with pedigree, but not racism. I think you are making the point that race really doesn't have anything to do with it - ancestry is all important. (?) Who's to say that somewhere in Aragon's ancestry (perhaps before the fall of Numenor) there wasn't a sire who later went on to become a "Black Numenorean" (sp)?) > Is this good or bad? I find the concept, taken in the abstract, > repulsive, and would not want to live in such a world. But, in > terms of literature, it works. Would Lord of the Rings be the > same without Aragorn, this no-body from no-where (who just happens > to be the highest-born man in the world), jumping in and leading > the armies of the West? I think not. Ah, but you speak like an American. America has been fortunate not to have nobility. However, (now I *have* to get into Tolkien's personal beliefs), Tolkien is a product of his culture, which included, in his earlier years the reigns of the Hapsburgs, Hoenzollerens, Romanovs and George V in England. Europe has a rich history of monarchies which, for the most part, we Americans don't understand. (I don't claim to understand it either - all I know is that there are cultural differences between *us* and *our* ancestors). Dan Flak R & D Associates 3625 Perkins Lane SW Tacoma,Wa 98499 206-581-1322 {psivax,ism780}!logico!slovax!flak {hplsla,uw-beaver}!tikal!slovax!flak ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 14:22:00 EDT From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" Subject: Tolkien Piers David Crawley writes > The gist of the theory was that Tolkien's world was an aparteid >allegory based on the fact that all all the good guys were white >skinned and fair haired etc. Whilst the bad guys were black or, in >the case of Saruman ceased to be white when they changed >allegiance. As many others have already mentioned, it looks like he only took the black=evil and white=good mythological notion and there was no racist thing. One thing to think about might be that Gandalf was Gandalf the Grey before he became Gandalf the White. Someone seemed to question Saruman's being "white" and I believe, it is only wrt his title Saruman the White before he turned bad that we have any colors associated with him. It has been quite a while since I last read LoTR so I won't add any more. There probably is a ton of color imagery that no one has brought up yet. (Anyone remember all the wizard colors?) Neil A. Ottenstein otten@cincom.umd.edu arpanet otten@umcincom bitnet ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 19:16:35 GMT From: think!craig@RUTGERS.EDU (Craig Stanfill) Subject: Re: Tolkien/racism (long) >> Tolkien has created a world which is, in a sense, both classist >> and racist: the pedigree of a man, and the ancestry of a people, >> have a very large role in determining who one is. BUT: something >> of this nature is inevitable if you want to write about a world >> in which nobility of birth has real meaning. Here Tolkien has >> taken a concept from the mythos he was drawing on (including the >> King as Hero), and elevating it to a fundamental part of the way >> things work. > > I agree with pedigree, but not racism. I think you are making the > point that race really doesn't have anything to do with it - > ancestry is all important. Hmmm ... Maybe tribalism or clannishness or nationalism or some other ISM is the correct term. I don't know exactly what would constitute a ``race'' in Middle Earth. Are the men of Harad: a race, a nation, a tribe, or a clan? In any event, one who is born a Man of Harad has little (no) hope of rising above his birth. In any event, this principle is a consequence of the way in which stature is inherited through generations, but applied on the scale of large populations rather than individuals. > Who's to say that somewhere in Aragon's ancestry (perhaps before > the fall of Numenor) there wasn't a sire who later went on to > become a "Black Numenorean" (sp)?) If I remember his lineage correctly, about midway through the second Age Aragorn's sires were screwed out of the Numenorian crown. His clan remained faithful to the Valar, while the usurpers became the Black Numenoreans. I don't remember the details, except that they were complex. >> Is this good or bad? I find the concept, taken in the abstract, >> repulsive, and would not want to live in such a world. >Ah, but you speak like an American. America has been fortunate not >to have nobility. However, (now I *have* to get into Tolkien's >personal beliefs), Tolkien is a product of his culture, which >included, in his earlier years the reigns of the Hapsburgs, >Hoenzollerens, Romanovs and George V in England. Europe has a rich >history of monarchies which, for the most part, we Americans don't >understand. (I don't claim to understand it either - all I know is >that there are cultural differences between *us* and *our* >ancestors). Hmmm. Part of the reason why Nobility and Royalty has gone out of style is that this is NOT Middle Earth; virtue and wisdom are demonstrably NOT inherited in the line of male succession. What would the world be like if every Rooman Emperor had the military genius of Julius Caesar and the administrative genius of Octavius Caesar Augustus? I suspect we would still have Roman emperors. Perhaps part of what led Tolkien to craft his world in this way was a longing for a world in which the principles underlying classism and monarchy worked perfectly. One can speculate. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 87 00:38:35 GMT From: mimsy!mangoe@RUTGERS.EDU (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Tolkien/racism (not long) Craig Stanfill writes: >Hmmm ... Maybe tribalism or clannishness or nationalism or some >other ISM is the correct term. I don't know exactly what would >constitute a ``race'' in Middle Earth. Are the men of Harad: a >race, a nation, a tribe, or a clan? In any event, one who is born >a Man of Harad has little (no) hope of rising above his birth. In >any event, this principle is a consequence of the way in which >stature is inherited through generations, but applied on the scale >of large populations rather than individuals. This is actually a bit of Judaism-- the notion of a given national destiny. Illuvatar working out his purpose through chosen nations. Sounds like Israel, doesn't it? (Not the present one, silly.) It's pretty clear from reading the Silmarillion that the races are the elves, the dwarves, the men, and the hobbits. What destinies they have are on a far greater scale than merely the events in the LOTR; the elves, dwarves and hobbitsrise and then fade away, but on a vastly greater timescale. >Hmmm. Part of the reason why Nobility and Royalty has gone out of >style is that this is NOT Middle Earth; virtue and wisdom are >demonstrably NOT inherited in the line of male succession. What >would the world be like if every Rooman Emperor had the military >genius of Julius Caesar and the administrative genius of Octavius >Caesar Augustus? I suspect we would still have Roman emperors. >Perhaps part of what led Tolkien to craft his world in this way was >a longing for a world in which the principles underlying classism >and monarchy worked perfectly. One can speculate. Well, I think that there are several dramatic pressures. One of the aspects of the LOTR is apocalyptic, after all. In it the destiny of the "fairy tale" races is worked out and brought to a close. But I think the principal reason has to do with the importance of obedience. The wrecking of Middle Earth, as it is told in the Silmarillion, is caused by something essentially like the christian notion of sin. Melkor disobeys Illuvatar and Manwe. Feanor and his sons disobey Manwe. El-Pharazon disobeys Manwe. Sauron disobeys Manwe. Saruman falls out of the Istari. The Numenoreans disintegrate due to intrigue. Boromir breaks trust. Wormtongue deceives the leaders of the Rohirrim. THe Ring is itself a sort of elemental treachery which nobody seems to be able to master. In this wise, the appearance of Aragorn as a sort of typological, fore-ordained King is quite natural-- a king because that epitomizes Leadership, and fore-ordained to emphasize the apocalyptic, set-before-time nature of events. C. Wingate ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 22:28:05 GMT From: iodine@coral.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Tolkien From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" >(Anyone remember all the wizard colors?) As I recall, there were three Istari (wizards) sent into Middle Earth: Saruman the white, Gandalf the grey, and Radagast the Brown. Radagast's specialty was nature, more specifically, animals. He was supposed to be able to communicate with any animal. Steve Gensler iodine@coral.berkeley.edu, or ucbvax!coral!iodine ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 87 17:56:14 GMT From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu Subject: Re: Tolkien/racism (long) flak@slovax.UUCP (Dan Flak) writes: >Craig Stanfill writes: >> In this posting, I will talk about the way things work in Middle >> Earth, rather than speculate about Tolkien's possible beliefs. > >I'll keep that in mind. The problem is not that people have been speculating about Tolkien's beliefs, but that those who have been so doing clearly know nothing about them. (Unless our news-feed problems have been killing some postings). >> Tolkien has created a world which is, in a sense, both classist >> and racist: the pedigree of a man, and the ancestry of a people, >> have a very large role in determining who one is. BUT: something >> of this nature is inevitable if you want to write about a world >> in which nobility of birth has real meaning. Of course, this is true. The same considerations apply to FRP worlds. This use of the term racist has very little to do with the common use of the term, which means "prejudiced against blacks." >> Here Tolkien has taken a concept from the mythos he was drawing >> on (including the King as Hero), and elevating it to a >> fundamental part of the way things work. > >I agree with pedigree, but not racism. I think you are making the >point that race really doesn't have anything to do with it - >ancestry is all important. (?) Who's to say that somewhere in >Aragon's ancestry (perhaps before the fall of Numenor) there wasn't >a sire who later went on to become a "Black Numenorean" (sp)?) I'll take the last error first. TOLKIEN said that there were no sires in Aragorn's line who took the dark path. Aragorn came from a line of those who were unswervingly faithful. Some made bad mistakes (such as Isildur's taking the Ring for his own), but he was killed before he could become greatly corrupted. Perhaps a gift from the West? If Mr. Stanhill is using the term "race" as advisedly as I hope he is, then we must recall that the terms usally translated as "race" in heroic poetry are closer to "clan" in modern usage. Beowulf speaks of being the last of his race, as does the Wanderer. Clearly, he is not the last Caucasian, or even the last German, Geat, Saxon, whatever. We fail to understand LOTR if we ignore either the Heroic or the Christian elements. Tolkien believed in original sin (no shock there, he was an ardent Catholic.) and this is made clear. Rising above one's sinful ancestry is harder than falling below the glory of one's fore- bears. The remnant of the race of Numenor is far closer to the state of the Riders before Eorl came from the North than the Riders will ever be to the heirs of Elros. It is almost too painfully obvious to point out the allegorical elements in LOTR, but I have seen no poster who dealt with it. (Apologies if I have missed a posting due to news feed problems.) Aragorn is a Christ figure. NOT Christ, but a Christ figure. He is returning to his king- dom after having been absent for a long time, and having left the kingdom in the charge of stewards. He endures temptation, passes through Hell, and redeems his people. The death and resurrection are provided by Gandalf, the second Christ figure. He began despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. Need I go on? The heroic Christ figure (Aragorn) and the semi-divine Christ figure (Gandalf) are in the end overshadowed by the humble Christ figure (Frodo). He undergoes symbolic death and resurrection (trip through Mordor and his rescue by the Eagles) in order to provide salvation for those who found him of no account. >> Is this good or bad? I find the concept, taken in the abstract, >> repulsive, and would not want to live in such a world. But, in >> terms of literature, it works. Would Lord of the Rings be the >> same without Aragorn, this no-body from no-where (who just >> happens to be the highest-born man in the world), jumping in and >> leading the armies of the West? I think not. > >Ah, but you speak like an American. America has been fortunate not >to have nobility. However, (now I *have* to get into Tolkien's >personal beliefs), Tolkien is a product of his culture, which >included, in his earlier years the reigns of the Hapsburgs, >Hoenzollerens, Romanovs and George V in England. Europe has a rich >history of monarchies which, for the most part, we Americans don't >understand. (I don't claim to understand it either - all I know is >that there are cultural differences between *us* and *our* >ancestors). And you both speak in apparent ignorance of who Tolkien was and what he was writing. He was writing heroic fantasy, a latter day edda, with a very strong Christian allegorical element. The heroic period is a time of kings and princes, whose right to rule rests on firm foundations of heredity. Christ is Hereditary King, both at the Son of David and as the Son of God. Suppose that irrefutable proof of the existence of God were presented to you, that He is omniscient and absolutely good, and that He appointed a King to reign over the world. I can imagine few who would not agree that this would be a good form of government. I am not asserting that any such government is possible in this world, just asking you to look into another point of view. Robert A. West Q4071@PUCC US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place Suite A North Brunswick, NJ 08902 VOICE : (201) 821-7055 ...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Jun 87 0916-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #301 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jun 87 0916-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #301 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 301 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Anthony & Delaney (2 msgs) & Rowley & Silverberg & Stasheff & Sturgeon & Fall Books & 1987 Hugo Nominations ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Jun 87 11:55:20 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!uel!olgb1!riddle!domo@RUTGERS.EDU (Dominic From: Dunlop) Subject: Re: Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency That Douglas Adams, arncha just sick of him??!! Since signing copies of _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_ at London's Forbidden Planet bookshop on Saturday, he's been on BBC Radio 4's _Bookshelf_ program (Sunday 14th June, 20:00 BST), Radio 4's _Start the Week_ (Monday, 09:05), London Broadcasting's _AM_ (Tuesday), and has featured in a piece on the science page of the Independent, a UK national newspaper (Monday). Have there been other sitings? I haven't monitored TV, for instance. That Douglas Adams, dontcha just lurve him? Such a clever man, typesetting his own book on a Mac (although I'm sure many will dispute a claim that it was the first book for which this has been done; the first published by Heineman, perhaps...) And entertaining on chat shows -- although spoilers are inclined to creep into the conversation. Such a welcome change from politicians. Seriously though, Adams says he's glad almost to have put Hitchhiker behind him (although the film, on which he spent a fruitless year in LA may yet go into production). I'm a fan really. It's just that I'm sensitive to hype... Dominic Dunlop ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 18:00:23 GMT From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) Subject: lack of non-human-like Aliens (was Re: The Uplift War) cjh@petsd.UUCP (Chris Henrich) writes: > I agree that non-human characters should not just be humans with > added weaknesses; they should have some added strengths as well. > But - to imagine these added qualities vividly is a long step > towards having them yourself. For instance, suppose, in my > unbegun novel, Of course, portraying a totally non-human Alien would be very near impossible for the reasons you mentioned. However, a nice attempt is done by Piers Anthony in his _Cluster_ series. I've found that his aliens are much more belieavable as aliens than most of the other aliens I've read in SF. The _Cluster_ series include: 1) Vicinity Cluster 2) Chaining the Lady 3) Kirlian Quest 4) Thousandstar 5) Viscious Circle Eiji Hirai USMail: Swarthmore College Swarthmore PA 19081 phone: for the summer it's (215)544-5349 UUCP: {seismo, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai ARPA: swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 87 18:21:55 GMT From: rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Delaney putnam@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP (jeff putnam ) writes: >It says in one of the blurbs that there is a second part "The >Splendor and Misery of Bodies, of Cities" (wonderful titles even!) >and that this should be published in 1985, but I can't find this in >bookstores or "Books in Print" or "Forthcoming Books". It was delayed for some reason; I heard somewhere that it's supposed to come out this year (maybe in the fall?). >... I would also be interested in hearing what people think of >this - it would at least be a switch from Heinlein bashing. Yeah, now we can go back to another round of Delaney bashing. :-) I also liked "Stars in my Pocket..." very much. It and "Nova" are my two favorite Delaney novels. Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 18:58:22 GMT From: scott@topaz.rutgers.edu (David Scott) Subject: Samuel R. Delaney sequel? Does anybody out there know what has happened to the planned sequel to Samuel R. Delaney's novel, Stars In My Pocket Like Grains Of Sand? The sequel was to be called, I think, The Splendor And Misery Of Bodies, Of Cities; or something similar. A publisher's note at the end of Stars indicated the companion volume would be released in late 1986. I don't follow the sf community very closely. Does anybody who has, know anything about Delaney? Thanks. Dave Scott ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 17:53:31 GMT From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Golden Sunlands Sequel Warning "Golden Sunlands", by Christopher Rowley is half, or maybe a third, of a book. There is no warning on the cover, no "to be continued". In fact, a shopper casually glancing at the last page might not realize it. But all this book does is introduce -- and scatter -- the characters. Huh? Oh, quality...well, it's readable. [**+]. Dani Zweig haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (arpa, bitnet, or via seismo) ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 87 15:21:36 GMT From: vax1!jsm@RUTGERS.EDU (Jon Meltzer) Subject: Re: First SF dleigh@hplabsz.HPL.HP.COM (Darren Leigh) writes: >I guess I got my first real science fiction reading experience in >fourth grade. They were passing out paperbacks and I got two: The >Runaway Robot (by Lester del Rey?) and another one whose title I >don't remember: it was about the revolution of earth's colony on >Alpha Centauri, with all kinds of parallels with the American >revolution ("No taxation without representation."). A really neat >part was where the hero (outside the ship doing repairs after the >hyperspace drive broke) loosed his own tether to jump out and save >a fellow workman. Apparently the only propulsion device he had was >a pistol, so he only had six shots to get back! I appreciated it. >I was only nine. "Revolt on Alpha C", Robert Silverberg's first novel. The hero is named after the well-known fifties sf fan Larry Stark. Another character is Harlan Ellison - in name, temperament, and size. Terry Carr is the head of the Space Patrol. I imagine that the rest of the characters are also named after fifties fans. Good book, too ... I reread it recently, after twenty years. Still holds up. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 07:32:49 GMT From: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@RUTGERS.EDU (der Mouse) Subject: Re: Christopher Stasheff' "Warlock series" > BTW, does anybody have the *original* King Kobold? What did you > think? Is the 'new' version beter? I have an old King Kobold. I saw it second-hand (how else?) and jumped on it despite its condition, which is hardly mint. However, it has been some time since I read either form of KK, so my memories will be rather time-blurred. However, when reading KK (I read KKR first), I was able to predict from memory of KKR how most nontrivial plot events would turn out, so they can't be that different. (My memory seems to be fuzzy. Reread time, I guess.) mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp ------------------------------ Date: Mon 22 Jun 87 23:48:14-EDT From: "Art Evans" Subject: In praise of Ted Sturgeon To: hugo@GNOME.CS.CMU.EDU Peter Su (Hugo@Gnome.Cs.Cmu.Edu) states his admiration for Sturgeon and asks about his books. First off, I fully concur with Su's opinion: Sturgeon was first rate, and we miss him. For some reason, there are only two Sturgeon books in my library: _E Pluribus Unicorn_ and _Godbody_. The first is a collection of truly marvelous stories with copyrights dating from 1947 to 1953. I had a copy for years that apparently was poorly bound, since many of the pages had fallen out. However, I had saved (almost all of) them and kept the whole thing tied up with a rubber band and reread it every few years. Then my daughter, bless her, found that it had been reprinted, and bought each of us a copy; that's what I now have. It's a Pocket Book Edition, printed August 1977; ISBN: 0-671-83149-6. I would be quite surprised if it's still in print. Although a few of the stories are just so-so, most of them range from good to superb. _The Silken Swift_ is, I suppose, fantasy, inasmuch as it involves a unicorn and magic. Usually I don't care for fantasy, but I think this is marvelous. Sturgeon has a beautiful way with descriptions, evoking mysterious places in a way that brings them right into my brain. _A Saucer of Loneliness_ tells of a "flying saucer" (perhaps a foot or so in diameter) that appears in Central Park, New York, over a young woman's head and seems to give her a message -- a message which she refuses to tell anyone. Sturgeon's sensitive character development leads to a most satisfactory ending. _The World Well Lost_ tell a sympathetic story of a homosexual in an unsympathetic world -- unusual stuff for 1953. And one of the best stories, _Die, Maestro, Die_, isn't science fiction at all -- at least by any definition of SF I've ever heard. It's just one of the most imaginative and gripping short stories I've ever read. The book has a foreword by Groff Conklin, and before the title page two other books by Sturgeon are listed: _The Cosmic Rape_, and _Sturgeon is Alive and Well..._. I don't remember either. My other Sturgeon is _Godbody_, probably the last thing he wrote before he died in May, 1985. It contains a short essay in parise of Sturgeon by Robert A. Heinlein. As RAH says, the book's message is "Love one another." Good stuff -- I liked it, though I know that others didn't. My hard-bond copy is from Science Fiction Book Club. Other Sturgeon stories mentioned on the dust cover are _More than Human_, recipient of the International Fantasy Award, and "Slow Sculpture", winner of Hugo and Nebula Awards. I would dearly love to reread both of them. Let's hear more about Ted Sturgeon. In particular, does anyone know of anything else in prnt? Art Evans Tartan Labs ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 87 05:42:43 GMT From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Fall Books Culled from the June 19th issue of Publisher's Weekly, here are some books you'll be seeing this fall. L. Ron Hubbard: Buckskin Brigade. Bridge. mass market, 500,000 first printing, $200,000 promotion budget. L. Ron Hubbard's precedent setting historical action adventure novel (that's a quote). Does anyone know if this is a reprint, or is this another "new" work by a very dead author? They claim it to be a first mass-market, but I couldn't find it as a known work in my files. Either way, it has an indian on the cover instead of a space ship. Isaac Asimov: Fantastic Voyage II: Destination Brain. Doubleday. 200,000 first printing, $200,000 promo. BOMC feature, September. Clive Barker: Weaveworld. Poseidon. 125,000 first printing, $100,000 promo, BOMC alternate, Author tour, October. 600 page Fantasy about a rug with a world woven into it. M. Z. Bradley: The Firebrand. Simon & Shuster. October. Trojan War told through the eyes of Helen. Stephen Donaldson: A Man Rides Through (Mordant's Need 2). Del Rey. November. L. Ron Hubbard: The Doomed Planet (Mission Earth volume 10). Bridge. October. Yes, it is finally over. Yippee! Now Bridge can start publishing it in paperback. Stephen King: The Tommyknockers. Putnam. November. Kurt Vonnegut: Bluebeard. Delacorte. BOMC featured alternate. October. Quality paperback club main selection. The Autobiography of Rabo Karabekian, a cameo player in Breakfast of Champions. enjoy... Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 87 12:20:28 GMT From: phm@stl.stc.co.uk (Peter Mabey) Subject: Hugo Nominations The BSFA have just published the Hugo nominations in Matrix 70, as follows: Novel (475 votes) Speaker for the Dead Orson Scott Card (Tor/Century) Count Zero William Gibson (Gollancz/Arbor House) Black Genesis L. Ron Hubbard (Bridge/New Era) The Ragged Astronauts Bob Shaw (Gollancz/Baen) Marooned in Realtime Vernor Vinge (Analog/Bluejay) Novella (208 votes) Eifelheim Michael Flynn (Analog 11/86) Escape from Kathmandu Kim Stanley Robinson (IASFM 9/86) R+R Lucius Shepard (IASFM 4/86) Gilgamesh in the Outback Robert Silverberg (IASFM 7/86, Rebels in Hell) Spice Pogrom Connie Willis (IASFM 10/86) Novelette (242 votes) Thor Meets Captain America David Brin (F&SF 7/86) Hatrack River Orson Scott Card (IASFM 8/86) The Winter Market William Gibson (Stardate 3/86, Interzone 15, Burning Chrome) The Barbarian Princess Vernor Vinge (Analog 9/86) Permafrost Roger Zelazny (Omni 4/86) Short Story (281 votes) Robot Dreams Isaac Asimov (IASFM midDec 86, Robot Dreams) Tangents Greg Bear (Omni 1/86) Still Life David Garnett (F&SF 3/86) Rat James Patrick Kelly (F&SF 6/86) The Boy Who Plaited Manes Nancy Springer (F&SF 10/86) NonFiction (192 votes) Trillion Year Spree Brian Aldiss with David Wingrove (Gollancz/Atheneum) Science Fiction in Print: 1985 Charles N. Brown & William G. Contento (Locus Press) The Dark Knight Returns Frank Miller et al. (Warner/Titan) Industrial Light and Magic: The Art of Special Effects Thomas G. Smith (Del Rey) Only Apparently Real Paul Williams (Arbor House) Dramatic Presentation (344 votes) Aliens (20th Century Fox) The Fly (20th Century Fox) Labyrinth (Lucasfilms) Little Shop of Horrors (Geffen) Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (Paramount) Professional Artist (317 votes) Jim Burns Frank Kelly Freas Tom Kidd Don Maitz J. K. Potter Barclay Shaw Professional Editor (257 votes) Terry Carr Gardner Dozois Ed Ferman David Hartwell Stan Schmidt SemiProzine (269 votes) Interzone ed. David Pringle & Simon Ounsley Fantasy Review ed. Robert A. Collins Locus ed. Charles N. Brown Science Fiction Chronicle ed. Andrew Porter Science Fiction Review ed. Richard Geis Fan Writer (226 votes) Mike Glyer Arthur Hlavaty Dave Langford Patrick Nielsen Hayden Simon Ounsley D. West Fan Artist (213 votes) Brad Foster Stu Shiffman Steve Fox Taral Arthur (ATOM) Thomson Fanzine (269 votes) Ansible Dave Langford File 770 Mike Glyer Lan's Lantern George Laskowski Texas SF Inquirer Pat Mueller Trapdoor Robert Lichtman The John W. Campbell award nominations are: + Lois McMaster Bujold + Karen Joy Fowler Leo Frankowski Katherine Eliska Kimbriel Rebecca Brown Ore Robert Touzalin Reed (217 votes cast) + Second year of eligibility I have no official connection with Conspiracy 87 or the BSFA, but have transcribed the above information for the interest of all netlanders, so only take responsibility for typos. :) Regards, Peter Mabey phm@stl ...!mcvax!ukc!stl!phm +4427929531 x3596 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Jun 87 0938-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #302 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jun 87 0938-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #302 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 302 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien (2 msgs) & Swift & Brief review ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Jun 87 18:55:40 GMT From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates) Subject: Re: The Istari iodine@coral.berkeley.edu writes: >As I recall, there were three Istari (wizards) sent into Middle >Earth: Saruman the white, Gandalf the grey, and Radagast the Brown. >Radagast's specialty was nature, more specifically, animals. He >was supposed to be able to communicate with any animal. I quote from Unfinished Tales, Part Four, Charpter II, "The Istari" Of this Order [the Istari, RW] the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle_Earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Du'nedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five. The first to come was of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; and last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. But Ci'rdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave into his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red. ... Now the White Messenger in later days became known among Elves as Curuni'r, the Man of Craft, in the tongues of Northern Men Saruman... Of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had not names save _Ithryn Luin_ "the Blue Wizards'; for they passed into the East with Curuni'r, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants is not know known. Elsewhere, Tolkien says that alone of the Istari, Gandalf was true to his errand: Saruman fell into Evil, Radagast became too enamoured of the beasts to rouse the Free Peoples to resistance, and the Blue Wizards either fell prey to Sauron (or even Saruman may have disposed of them when he journeyed with them to the East) or founded magical cults and traditions which outlasted Sauron. Of the five chiefs of the Istari (who are the Five Wizards whose rods Saruman covets in LotR), all were Maiar selected by the Valar to go to Middle Earth. According to Manwe (p.393 of Unfinished Tales) "...they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe them- selves in flesh... But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares and wearinesses coming from the flesh." Each of the Istari were chosen by a Vala. Curumo (Saruman) was chosen by Aule (the smith, and creator of the dwarves), and volunteered. Orome (the hunter, who had found the Elves when they lived far in the East) chose Alatar (one of the Blue Wizards) who also volunteered. The Manwe (chief of the Valar) chose Olo'rin, who declined, protesting that he was too weak, and feared Sauron. Then Manwe ordered him to go as the Third Istar (singular of Istari), but Varda (aka Elbereth Gilthoniel, maker of the stars and patroness of Elves) implied that he was not the third, but the first. Yavanna (creator of the plants and animals, who prayed that the Ents might be created to defend them from the depredations of the dwarves, and the wife of Aule) asked Curumo to take Aiwendil (Radagast) with him, and Pallando (a Blue Wizard) accompanied Alatar for the sake of friendship. Olo'rin is, of course, Gandalf. Robert A. West Q4071@PUCC US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place Suite A North Brunswick, NJ 08902 VOICE : (201) 821-7055 ...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 14:59:02 GMT From: think!craig@RUTGERS.EDU (Craig Stanfill) Subject: Re: Tolkien/racism (long) Lord of the Rings is clearly influenced by Christian ideas, but it is very easy to overstate these influences and claim that LOTR is Christian Allegory. Bosh. >We fail to understand LOTR if we ignore either the Heroic or the >Christian elements. Tolkien believed in original sin (no shock >there, he was an ardent Catholic.) and this is made clear. Rising >above one's sinful ancestry is harder than falling below the glory >of one's fore- bears. The remnant of the race of Numenor is far >closer to the state of the Riders before Eorl came from the North >than the Riders will ever be to the heirs of Elros. There is some similarity here. The basic morality, as set out in the Music of Illuvitar, is that Evil spreads by listening to the Enemy's lies. Without going into detail about theology and original sin, there is a strong parallel here. >It is almost too painfully obvious to point out the allegorical >elements in LOTR, but I have seen no poster who dealt with it. >(Apologies if I have missed a posting due to news feed problems.) >Aragorn is a Christ figure. NOT Christ, but a Christ figure. He >is returning to his king- dom after having been absent for a long >time, and having left the kingdom in the charge of stewards. > >He endures temptation, passes through Hell, and redeems his people. >The death and resurrection are provided by Gandalf, the second >Christ figure. He began despised and rejected of men, a man of >sorrows and acquainted with grief. Need I go on? > >The heroic Christ figure (Aragorn) and the semi-divine Christ >figure (Gandalf) are in the end overshadowed by the humble Christ >figure (Frodo). He undergoes symbolic death and resurrection (trip >through Mordor and his rescue by the Eagles) in order to provide >salvation for those who found him of no account. There are parallels, but no allegory. If you substitute the word HERO for CHRIST, the above discussion is correct. The nature of Christ is completely different than any of the above. If one of these characters was the personification of Illuvitar in the same way that, for example, the Valar are personifications of the spirits who participated in the music, there would be an allegory. If Gandalf were a Man (rather than a Maiar for whom a body was a useful convenience) his death and re-appearance might be interpreted allegorically. However, if we are to draw any allegory at all, Gandalf would be an angelic visitation rather than the Christ. If Frodo were above all temptation, incorruptible, there might be an element of allegory. But, remember, he did put on the ring at Weathertop and again at the Crack of Doom, where he went so far as to claim it for his own. The only thing that saved him (and the rest of the world) from utter ruin was his earlier acts of mercy toward Gollum. If we are to draw any allegory at all, Frodo would be a saint: struggling constantly with temptation, sometimes giving in (to his own loss); ultimately losing but ultimately saved by unforeseen grace. If Christ had come as a warrior King and emerged as the ruler of Israel, OR if Aragorn had been treacherously slain before he could come into his kingdom, there might be an allegory. But Christ's first coming, judged by the standards of the warrior King, was a failure; he was turned out of his own Kingdom and slain; he will not ascend his throne until his second coming. And there is no parallel between Aragorn's story and Christ's prophesied second coming: when Christ returns, the victory of Good will be complete for all time. It is clear that the return of the King is the end of one struggle, but equally clear that Evil will arise again. In summary, the existence of some parallels does not make for allegory; for there to be an allegory there must be identity at the deepest levels, rather than at the most superficial. Consider, by way of contrast, Dante's Divine Comedy or Lewis's Narnia books, which WERE intended as allegory, and which do not suffer from the sort of mis-matches I have noted above. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 09:02:38 GMT From: boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Tom Swift [Old business] From: decwrl!crew (Roger Crew) > Actually, as I understand it, this was the second of 3 of these > series. The first was by Victor Appleton I, was written in the > 1920's ... and had to do with Tom Swift Sr., the father of the Tom > Swift in the second series. The third series started fairly > recently [within the last 10 years...] and I know almost nothing > about it; I could take a wild guess and say it's by Victor > Appleton III, but who knows... Actually, the first series started in 1910 and went up to 1940. The third series started in 1981 and the by-line is just plain "Victor Appleton". > Doubtless, someone out there has a complete list of all of the > books in all three series ('' he said categorically... :-) Well, I could do it, but would anyone *really* want a complete list of all three series? From: elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) > tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) writes: >> At any rate, Charly Wingate made an error when he wrote that the >> Jr. series was written by "his [Victor Appleton] son". Actually >> two errors; first, the authors were the same person, just a >> slightly different penname [a II was attached to the Appleton], >> and second the author was female. I don't recall her name, but >> her obit a few years ago mentioned that she was both names, as >> well as the author of several other well known series, perhaps >> including Nancy Drew and/or The Hardy Boys although I won't swear >> to the exact series at this date. > > Well, I can speak with a tiny bit of authority on this, but not > much, since my memory fails me on some particulars. The female > mentioned above was Helen(?) Stratemeyer, daughter of the man who > wrote/created the Hardy Boys books (and whose real name may have > been Franklin Adams or whatever the HB author's name is/was; if > not, try "Frank Stratemeyer"). Her father created the Hardy Boys > and Nancy Drew and a couple of other juvenile series, including > Tom Swift Sr. He wrote 'em all, too, until he started making > enough money to hire ghost writers; then, he just plotted them > all. She took up the family business and eventually controlled it > after her father's death. At some point, it became The > Stratemeyer Syndicate, and its office was in my home town: > Maplewood, NJ. If she's dead now, the business isn't. [...] Actually, there are a large number of mistakes in the above articles. Edward Stratemeyer wrote a number of kids books in the early part of the century. As stated above, he did indeed found the Stratemeyer Syndicate that was responsible for most of the popular and well-known kids series. However, contrary to what Chris said, Stratemeyer didn't start writing the various series and later have ghost writers continue with them. Almost all of the major series that came out of the Syndicate did so after Stratemeyer founded it. However, Stratemeyer did *not* write the Tom Swift series. He created the central concept and wrote plot outlines for most of the books (he died in 1930, but the series continued), but out of the 40 books in the series, the first three dozen were written by one of the Syndicate mainstays, Howard R. Garis. The rest were written by Stratemeyer's daughter, Harriet Adams, who also took control over the Syndicate when he died. The same is true of most of the other series done by the Syndicate. A little less than half of the Hardy Boys series was written by Leslie McFarlane (he even wrote an book about his experiences with the Syndicate, called GHOST OF THE HARDY BOYS), most of the rest again being by Harriet Adams. Adams was also almost totally responsible for the Nancy Drew series, as well as the revised versions of the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew books. The other two major Stratemeyer series that are of interest to the sf field were both written under the name Roy Rockwood. I believe (but have read nothing that confirms one way or the other) that Stratemeyer wrote many of the Bomba the Jungle Boy novels himself, though both McFarlane and Garis worked on them too. Garis also wrote, from Stratemeyer's outlines, most if not all of the "Great Marvel" series (BY AIR EXPRESS TO VENUS, BY SPACE SHIP TO SATURN, FIVE THOUSAND MILES UNDERGROUND, et alia). Incidentally, Garis' main claim to fame is having created and written (all on his own, not for the Syndicate) the "Uncle Wiggily" series. All together, he write about 15,000 (that's right, *thousand*) UW stories, most of them vignettes. The Tom Swift Jr. series was started in the 50's by Harriet Adams, under the name "Victor Appleton II", to foster the idea that Tom Jr. was being written by Victor Jr. She outlined all of the books, and may have actually written some, though one source lists "assistants" for each book. To what degree this assistance reaches is unknown. As previous articles mentioned, this second series was heavily tied into the first series, carrying over characters, locales, etc. The most recent Tom Swift series is a real curiosity. As Ted Nolan mentioned, it has almost no ties at all to the previous two series. In fact, other than the name of the protagonist, his father, the company they run, and the town in which it's situated, it has absolutely *nothing* in common with the previous series. In fact, only in one place (in the first book) is young Tom's father's first name given as "Tom"; otherwise, he's known only as "Mr. Swift", so if it wasn't for that one reference, it wouldn't even be clear that the main character is a Tom Jr. (he's never referred to *once* as "Jr."). None of the other characters, inventions, etc. from the TSJ series makes an appearance in the new series. As to authorship on this series goes, it's contracted to "outside" people (from what I understand, the Syndicate doesn't keep its own stable of writers anymore, but contracts with various individuals). I had a talk with Bob Vardeman at a con a few years back about this series. If I can recall correctly (stupid me didn't think to write it down), the bulk (if not all) of the first half dozen were written by Sharman DiVono, with Andy Offutt doing at least one, and I think Vardeman himself did one as well. But I can't confirm any of this. My information for all this comes from various sources, not the least of which is Diedre Johnson's STRATEMEYER PSEUDONYMS AND SERIES BOOKS: AN ANNOTATED CHECKLIST OF STRATEMEYER AND STRATEMEYER SYNDICATE PUBLICATIONS (Greenwood Press, 1982). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 21:13:06 GMT From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea) Subject: Brief review Dozois, ed., *The Year's Best Science Fiction: fourth annual collection* This keeps up the high standards of the previous anthologies edited by Dozois, and has the advantage of being bigger and coming out sooner: hard to beat. In the past, Dozois has included several novellas, a form which many feel makes is ideal for sf; this year, there is only one, Lucius Shepard's nebula-winning "R&R". There are several excellent novellettes and short stories, from people like Connie Willis, Orson Scott Card, William Gibson, Tanith Lee, etc. Not as impressive as last year's version (probably because the year itself was less impressive), but definitely worth having. Fernando Q. Gouvea Department of Mathematics 1 Oxford Street Cambridge, MA 02138 gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA gouvea@harvma1.BITNET ...!harvard!huma1!gouvea ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 24 Jun 87 0755-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #303 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jun 87 0755-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #303 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 24 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 303 Today's Topics: Television - Doctor Who (11 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Jun 87 13:44:32 GMT From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu.UUCP writes: > Seriously, Hartnell never had a control room like that in the > existing episodes. The same is for Troughton. Though the 1st > season of Troughton is missing, hints lead me to believe the room > was not like that then. Maybe it's from Pre-Chesterton days, You > know, before the Series began? I tend to think it a JN-T > Inconsistency. :-> Even if it was before his time, It was his > fault! :-> I (once again) stand corrected. As I said, I ASSUMED it was a previously (in terms of the series) used control room. But as Felix Unger says, one should never assume, for when you do you make an ASS out of U and ME. It would have been nice if it had been a control room from an earlier Doctor. Oh well .... D.L. Kosenko seismo!ulysses!dlk ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 10:23:34 GMT From: towers@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Stephen Towers) Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries trekker@bucc2.UUCP writes: > Anyway, I missed some of the episodes, and there are a few >changes I never saw the cause of. > 1. Why did Miss Smith (Elisabeth Sladen) stop travelling with > Doctor? The Doctor got a call from Gallifrey asking him to return immediately, I can't remember why, but he decided that Sarah couldn't go there and returned her to Earth. > 2. How did the interior of the Tardis get remodeled? The Doctor was wandering around the Tardis one day for no apparent reason and stumbled across an old control room he hadn't used for ages, and so decided to use it for a while. As far as I remember the BBC had just had a fire in one of their studios and the old Tardis set was severely damaged, and this old control room was all they could throw together in the short time available before shooting had to start. Not that they did a bad job... > 3. Why are there no female timelords? There are, they just don't appear very often. In the 'Key to Time' series (a few years on from the ones you are watching now) the Doctor is joined by a female Time Lord who remains for two further seasons. > 4. Are the Dr. Who novels worth reading? Are they cranked out > monthly like Trek novels and are often just as badly > written? If you are under ten then they are very exciting. Older then that and they begin to pale somewhat... langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu (John E. Langbein) writes: >Seriously, Hartnell never had a control room like that in the >existing episodes. The same is for Troughton. Though the 1st season >of Troughton is missing, hints lead me to believe the room was not >like that then. Maybe it's from Pre-Chesterton days, You know, >before the Series began? I tend to think it a JN-T Inconsistency. >:-> Even if it was before his time, It was his fault! :-> What is inconsistent about showing a part of the Tardis that has not been seen before in the series? The Doctor explained that it was the old console room, and this was made plausible by the presence of one of Pertwee's ruffled shirts and Troughton's recorder. The mere fact that neither Pertwee nor Troughton was ever actually shown in this room does not mean it didn't exist. Presumably the Tardis has bathrooms, even though I don't recall one ever being shown. Dave Seaman ags@j.cc.purdue.edu ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 17:10:54 GMT From: cmcl2!psuvax1!pitt!cisunx!cmf@RUTGERS.EDU (Carl M. Fongheiser) Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries nyssa@terminus.UUCP writes: >It is hard to say which book is the best, there are a number of >good ones. > >It is VERY EASY to say which is worst! (This wasn't true a few >weeks ago!) It must be "Slipback" by Eric Saward. This is the >only novelisation that I couldn't finish. BAD BAD BAD. Avoid if >at all possible. I haven't read "Slipback" yet, but my vote for worst would have to be "The Awakening". It's the only one (out of some 20 I've read) that really DRAGGED! Carl Fongheiser ...!pitt!cisunx!cmf cmf@pittvms.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 87 11:43:09 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: romana Andrew Weeks writes: > She was played initially by Mary Tamm (as in the Odessa File) and > then by an actress whose name slips my mind but who is now, I > think, Mrs. Tom Baker. Lalla Ward. or more correctly known as the Honourable Sarah Ward, daughter of the Viscount and Viscountess Bangor. She was Mrs. Tom Baker for about 16 months, beginning in 1981. But Lalla is quoted as saying "We were committed every bit as much to our careers as we were to one another. It's that which has driven us apart." Reference: "Doctor Who: A Celebration (Two Decades Through Time and Space)", by Peter Haining. Text was mercilessly copied without permission. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University phil@Rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 12:53:22 GMT From: feb@cblpe.att.com (Franco Barber) Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) writes: >I can only claim temporary memory bank failure for forgetting about >Romana. She is indeed the first female Timelord I remember seeing. Wasn't there a female time lord in "The Invasion of Time?" I am referring to the lady working in the security center whom Leela meets. I am pretty certain she was said to be a time lord. Franco Barber AT&T Bell Laboratories Columbus, Ohio ..!cbosgd!cbplf!cblpe!feb (614) 860-7803 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 87 18:48:13 GMT From: lll-lcc!leadsv!berg@RUTGERS.EDU (Gail Berg) Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries (old console room) ags@j.cc.purdue.edu (Dave Seaman) writes: > mean it didn't exist. Presumably the Tardis has bathrooms, even > though I don't recall one ever being shown. Well, in the Invasion of Time (I'm not sure about the title, its Leela's last one), we get a guided tour of the TARDIS. One of the council members stays a few minutes avoiding the Sontarans in a large room, with pool and tropical plants. This is one time we see a lot more of the TARDIS than just the control room. Since we haven't seen them since, one can assume that they were jettisoned in Castrovalva. Gail Berg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 87 22:47:13 -0700 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries > The local PBS station started showing Dr. Who episodes from the >first season with Tom Baker earlier this year, and I've thought >some of the recent ones they've been showing like "Face of Evil" >were pretty good. Our PBS station has shown Tom Baker's generation 3 times now. I find "Face of Evil" very good, with the Doctor on top form. Possibly the best one, though, is "Pyramids of Mars". >They seem to be better when they don't have stories where a guy in >a monster suit staggers around stomping on cardboard minitures or >strangling bad actors. Of how many sf series can that not be said? I can think of few that haven't suffered: look at the Gorn, or the lava creature, in Star Trek. Fortunately, Dr. Who does not require special effects skill for its results. The most enjoyable parts, I always feel, are the lines: mostly the Doctor's, but often his companions' too. >They've gotta do something about that costume designer, though. He >or she seems to create the gaudiest, goofiest outfits, I've ever >seen. They needed someone like William Theiss from the Star Trek >series. Now that lad could design costumes. Especially for the >female guest stars! Excuse me? Are we watching the same series? Of exactly what costumes in Dr. Who are you thinking? I think his outfits are great, Sarah's are usually very good, and the costuming in general for episodes set in the past is excellent (for those set in the future, often a bit plastic and artificial, it's true). But if you haven't yet seen "Pyramid of Mars", "Masque of Mandragora", or "Talons of Weng-Chiang", you're in for a treat. They are magnificently set. I suspect they used BBC props from much bigger, more expensive productions. And I find it hard to see how black slacks, a {red,green,blue} pullover and black boots can compete. Or were you thinking of Leslie Parrish's costume in "Who Mourns for Adonis?", or Droxene's in "The Cloud Minders"? Sorry, but despite having seen every episode at least 3 times, I can't think of any other examples of superior costuming. No, I have to say that I'm often very impressed with the uniforms and costumes on Dr. Who. > 1. Why did Miss Smith (Elisabeth Sladen) stop travelling with > Doctor? After a particularly trying bout of complaining to the Doctor when he wasn't listening at all, Sarah threatened to pack up and go home. Although she was pretty vehement at the time, she didn't really mean it; but the Doctor received an urgent call to return to Gallifrey, and he couldn't take her. So her threat was realised after all. If you haven't seen this episode, try to get it. The parting, right at the end, is very nicely done: very good performances from both Tom Baker and Elisabeth Sladen. In fact, he says "Until we meet again, Sarah" so convincingly that I was sure he'd be coming back to pick her up. I was disappointed when he did't. > 2. How did the interior of the Tardis get remodeled? The TARDIS' interior is constantly in flux. Compare the walls of number 1 control room in "Planet of Evil" or "Pyramids of Mars" to those at the end of the Doctor's 4th generation. Then look back at "the Three Doctors", in his 3rd generation: the "monitor" is a TV hanging on a bracket, with a wall of translucent blue behind it. Also, little is shown of the inner areas of the TARDIS until relatively late in the 4th generation. I believe the first time it's seen is in "Invasion of Time", and it has dozens of rooms, many levels, swimming pools, etc., etc., mostly configured to resemble early 20th century utilitarian style. Yet later it seems only to be one room, with an old-fashioned fridge and a desk ("Stones of Blood"). At the end of the 4th generation, it is full of corridors and rooms all of the same style (white walls with roundels), with a cloister buried somewhere within it. And at least two instances are shown where the internal configuration is explicitly changed from the main console. > 3. Why are there no female timelords? Romanadvoradnalunda would not appreciate that question. Neither would Chancellor Flavia. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 87 22:57:14 -0700 From: Alastair Milne Subject: Re: Sorry, but Re: Dr. Who queries > I also think they don't like aliens in the Penaptagon. Excuse me, but I believe: "Panopticon". According to the Oxford, it's derived from Greek and means, approximately, a place where all can be seen at once. Also, the dictionary says it was meant originally to apply to a new style of jail, where all the convicts could be watched at once. I wonder, considering the Doctor's feelings toward Gallifrey, whether there is not an intentional hint there. They certainly didn't greet Leela very kindly when she was there, and she's the only non-invading alien I know of who was ever on Gallifrey. (The Sontarans and the Vardans didn't much care how welcome they were.) Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 87 12:16:36 GMT From: uwvax!astroatc!terminus!nyssa@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Dr. Who (again) pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu writes: >nyssa@terminus.UUCP writes: >>Jo Grant was a lovely companion, and I doubt very seriously if >>whatever follows will be near her equal. (Although Harry did come >>close...) >I disagree!!! While I liked Jo Grant alot and was very sorry to >see her leave, Jo Grant was the last (and only?) companion the Doctor really loved. (Comments about Tom Baker and Lalla Ward DO NOT APPLY) >The companion that followed was much better!!! They even made a >spinoff starring her! Wheras they didn't even bother showing L**L* >on five doctors and she was on Galifrey! Perhaps that is because Louise Jameson's acting career has continued on to reach new heights! This resulted in her being unavailable! (Actually, the real reason will be explained later.) Since Doctor Who, Louise has had three major roles. She was Blanche in "Tenko" (currently on NJN, Monday nights 9PM) She was in "The Omega Factor" (Forgot the part, but she was a regular.) She is currently, as I type this, working on Jersey in "Bergerac", a detective show. (currently on NJN, Tuesday nights 9PM) Apart from K-9 and Company, I'd have difficulty remembering any of Lis Sladen's other parts. (From what I understand, the real reason is that because Tom Baker wasn't really appearing, they didn't want any of his companions there, either.) >>The next companion a time lord! Ha! She could hardly read a >>watch! >And what about Leela? Excuse me can you tell me... what is... waht >does profishent (spelled the way she would) mean? Leela was supposed to be a savage. Her inability to read a watch was due to not having been raised with them. Could Sarah Jane fire a bow or use a Janus Thorn without killing herself? I doubt it. Does that detract even further from her character? No, because it wasn't part of it. >>He would have been better off if he had. >If we were talking about the episodes immediately after >Deadly Assassin/Hand of Fear I would agree with you! If I remember correctly, he left without a companion at the end of both stories, and went on to find a lovely young lady. >>Very good! Full marks. It's a real shame that, since Pat >>Troughton, there have only been three companions who were really >>worth their weight: Jo Grant, Leela, and Romana. >More like the Second Romanadvoratrelundar and Sarah Jane Smith! >(OMIGOD! I mentioned HER name! I did include the former, but not the later. Sarah Jane Smith may be the worst companion in terms of consistency. She was supposed to be a feminist, and failed miserably there. She was supposed to be a stronger character, yet was a screamer (aren't they all. :-) I am very disappointed in her character for that. I will admit that she is not my least favorite, there are may worse. I just don't think she holds a candle to Leela, Jo Grant, Harry Sullivan, Brigadier Alastair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart, and others. James C. Armstrong, Jnr. (nicmad,ulysses,ihnp4)!terminus!nyssa ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 87 17:57:21 GMT From: pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Dr. Who (again) nyssa@terminus.UUCP writes: >pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Starbuck) writes: >[ L**se wasn't in Five Doctors...] >Perhaps that is because Louise Jameson's acting career has >continued on to reach new heights! This resulted in her being >unavailable! (Actually, the real reason will be explained later.) > >Since Doctor Who, Louise has had three major roles.. . . > >Apart from K-9 and Company, I'd have difficulty remembering any of >Lis Sladen's other parts. A FULL posting of Elisabeth Sladen's roles will appear in the near future! >(From what I understand, the real reason is that because Tom Baker >wasn't really appearing, they didn't want any of his companions >there, either.) Oh, Like the Brigadier, Sarah, Tegan. . . >Could Sarah Jane fire a bow or use a Janus Thorn without killing >herself? I doubt it. Does that detract even further from her >character? No, because it wasn't part of it. AHEM! I would bring your attention to the episode "Pyramids of MArs". Sarah is an excellent shot with a rifle. In "Time Warrior" The head of the "good" castle wished he had a dozen more warriors like Sarah as opposed to his regular soldiers. Stephen Pearl VOICE: (201)932-3465 UUCP: rutgers!topaz.rutgers.edu!pearl ARPA: PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU US MAIL: LPO 12749 CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 24 Jun 87 0821-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #304 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jun 87 0821-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #304 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 24 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 304 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley (3 msgs) & Elgin & Heinlein (4 msgs) & Lovecraft (2 msgs) & Sturgeon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Jun 87 16:14:13 GMT From: ames!aurora!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Women in SF wwd@rruxg.UUCP writes: >ewe@duke.UUCP writes: >> Another good Darkover book by MZB is Hawkmistress! >A warning: MZB has shown very right wing allegiance, for example >support of Nixon on Vietnam. Whenever I now read her stuff it now >seems rather fascist to me. I guess this brings up the question if >women's liberation can be separated from other liberation.... This is silly. I'm not especially an MZB fan, but my opinion of her books, and the books of any other author, have nothing to do with their politics. If you insist an author be politically correct before you'll read their books, you're going to cheat yourself out of a lot of fine reading. Someone's disagreeing with you politically is not equivalent to their being criminals or creeps. Ease up a little - reading opinions you disagree with can be one of the most stimulating forms of intellectual entertainment. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA {dual,seismo,ihnp4,hplabs}!ames!aurora!barry ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 87 20:38:50 GMT From: seismo!sun!apple!zardoz@RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Wayne) Subject: Re: Women in SF Thank you, Kenn. I *KNOW THE LADY IN QUESTION* and for her to endorse war is the most unlikely thing I can think of. I don't know where he heard it. but let me straighten him out right now. Marion is one of most pacifistic people I know. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 87 17:23:59 GMT From: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith) Subject: Re: Women in SF (really politics in writing) barry@aurora.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes: > This is silly. I'm not especially an MZB fan, but my opinion of > her books, and the books of any other author, have nothing to do > with their politics. If you insist an author be politically > correct before you'll read their books, you're going to cheat > yourself out of a lot of fine reading. I agree with you that one shouldn't refuse to read someone's books just because they hold political opinions you disagree with, but it is often impossible to divorce the book from the political opinions of the author. When the author feels they have to present their political convictions at the expense of a believable plot and/or character development, then you are no longer in any danger of cheating yourself out a lot of fine reading, because it is simply not there. I am an MZB fan, and have, I believe, everything she has published, with the exception of a couple of soft-porn novels published under a pseudonym many years ago. In general, I like her books. Unfortunately, lately she has gotten on a soapbox, which is getting kind of tiresome. I, for one, am tired of reading about Free Amazons who find true fulfillment only with each other. I have nothing against the idea of people finding that lifestyle fulfilling, but lately she doesn't seem interested in anything else. Some of her recent stuff has been very good (i.e. Mists of Avalon), but my reaction to her Darkover books lately is 'Oh God, not ANOTHER book about Magda'. She's long since made the philosophical point, and it's high time she at least found another way of expressing it, if not moved on to other issues. Kathryn L. Smith MIT Lincoln Laboratories Lexington, MA UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 18:28:54 GMT From: chavey@speedy.wisc.edu (Darrah Chavey) Subject: Re: Women in SF wwd@rruxg.UUCP writes: > Anyway another writer of note is Suzette Haden Elgin. I just started reading this newsgroup again after a long pause. Did I miss something? Are we building a list of Women in SF? Our local Con (WisCon) every year has a panel on "Little Known Women Authors in SF". If there is interest, I can probably re-compile much of the recommendations from this panel. Suzette Haden Elgin, by the way, has been our GoH, and is a regular attendee at WisCon. I also recommend her works. Darrah Chavey Computer Sciences Department University of Wisconsin, Madison WI chavey@cs.wisc.edu ...{ihnp4,seismo,allegra}!uwvax!chavey ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 03:55:17 GMT From: c60a-4er@tart7.berkeley.edu.berkeley.edu (Class Account) Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up? nancym@pyrtech.UUCP (Nancy McClelland) writes: >Later in the book, while on the hospital planet (or whatever it is) >Ames gets a tranplanted leg from Lazarus (one of his spares). This >makes less and less sense, because if Ames matches "Sambo" and >Lazarus matches Ames, then Lararus is also black. That still >leaves the fellow on the cover a mystery. Or there is an error or >two in the book, and all those fellows shouldn't match. Not to argue with the main point--the cover is almost certainly screwed up-- but unless they're tissue typing for a lot more factors in _Cat_ than they do today, it is quite possible for a black, especially one of North American background, to be an acceptable tissue match for a white. Only a few dozen genes are involved, several inherited as a linked group, and the most common Caucasian tissue types are quite common in American blacks. (You can't use tissue antigens to reliably determine an individual's race, although you can easily distinguish of Caucasians and Negros by frequencies.) Taking a break from a research project on this very system.... Mary K. Kuhner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 87 17:27:19 edt From: mike@thumper.bellcore.com (Mike A. Caplinger at From: thumper.bellcore.com) Subject: TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET, Heinlein's latest -- short review I guess since I have a real job I shouldn't begrudge the money it cost me to buy TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET. But I wish it had been quite a bit better anyway. I'm afraid this about wraps it up for RAH. If there was a plot, I'd describe it. But this is essentially just the day-to-day life story of one Maureen Johnson Smith, mother of Woodrow Wilson Smith aka Lazarus Long, from her birth to about 1982 and then a few thousand years later. We get a lot of moralizing from Heinlein, but it's pretty indigestible now; far worse than even STARSHIP TROOPERS or STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND. If anything actually *happened* to Maureen, this book might be OK. But her life is, well, pretty boring. Aside from some domestic details about life as a member of the Howard Families (replete with tiresome Heinleinesque descriptions of group sex and incest) and two or three interesting echoes of Future History events, this is pretty dull stuff. It's kind of a shame, since Heinlein can still write well on a micro level; but he can't sustain a plot any more. It's really quite sad. Don't even read this to find out what happened after the end of THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS. In fact, I hate to say it, but I liked SUNSET even less than NUMBER OF THE BEAST. For Heinlein completists only, and even they should wait for the paperback. Mike Caplinger mike@bellcore.com {decvax,ihnp4}!thumper!mike ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 87 06:17:33 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL (One More Time) allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >> Regret, yes, if appropriate. I think the real problem that many >>people have with Heinlein is that he doesn't automatically include >>the reader on the side of the "good guys". While mapping out his >>own form of idealism, he is apt to ridicule at least one of the >>readers beliefs or cherished institutions. He makes it plain that >>you have to strive to become one of his chosen, not just be there >>or agree with him. > > Say what? Heinlein's not trying to get you on anyone's side -- > he's trying to make his readers THINK! For example, he is on > quote in EXPANDED UNIVERSE as saying that STARSHIP TROOPERS was > *not* intended to say that his proposed government/voting rights > were the best ones or the ones he wanted; it was intended to make > people CONSIDER what such a government would be like. And > hopefully to gain insight into government and voting practices in > the process. (The Witness knows that most U.S.A. residents need > to learn one heck of a lot more about both!) The point was "identification with protagonist(s)", not good guys/bad guys. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 21:13:06 GMT From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea) Subject: Brief review Heinlein, *To Sail Beyond the Sunset* Now this is quite a surprise. It continues Heinlein's scheme of using the idea of parallel universes and the "World-as-Myth" to unify all of his novels, and to allow him to congregate all his favorite characters into a big happy family. This usually makes for very in-groupish and formless books (at least I think so), but this time it works pretty well, because the book is basically the memoirs of Maureen Johnson, the mother of Lazarus Long. As such, most of its time is spent in the past, and its main concerns are the fundamental ones of sex, family, and money. This offers ample opportunity for Heinlein's pontifications on these subjects, but it makes for an interesting story nevertheless. Most of the book is concerned with the early twentieth century, and one senses that Heinlein is drawing on his own experience to tell the tale. Once we get to World War II, it becomes clear that this is an alternative history (it follows the events of the "Future History" stories), which is interesting at least by showing how incredibly optimistic Heinlein's original vision of the future was. Heinlein's opinions are, of course, offered throughout; even though I find myself disagreeing with him in almost everything, I found this book much more readable than the previous ones. In fact, I like it better than anything since "Friday". The ending makes me suspect that Heinlein expects this to be his last book, or at least the last of this cycle. This is also suggested by the list of references to other stories which can be found at the back. Does anyone know what Heinlein's plans are? Fernando Q. Gouvea Department of Mathematics Oxford Street Cambridge, MA 02138 gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA 1 gouvea@harvma1.BITNET ...!harvard!huma1!gouvea ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 20:59:27 GMT From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto) Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations? jca@drutx.ATT.COM (ArnsonJC) writes: >As far as I know, HPL only wrote on book that could actually be >called a book and not a short story. The title is "The Case of >Charles Dexter Ward". Finding a copy may be difficult as I have >been told it is out of print. My copy is in paperback by Penguin >and the date is 1963(?) Not true. _The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath_ is a full blown novel and it is longer than -The Case of Charles Dexter Ward_. Check your bookstores. Almost all of Lovecraft's stories are being reprinted. There are hardcovers published by Arkham House and paperbacks done by somebody (sorry, don't recall publisher off-hand -- spines are red lettering on black). Biased opinion: Check out the "Call of Cthulhu" Role-Playing Game, published by the Chaosium. Latest product in the CoC universe: "The Miskatonic Matriculation Kit". Includes: Student ID, MU Bumper Sticker ("Go 'Pods!"), Map of Campus, Catalog from School of Mediaeval Metaphysics, Diploma, Frame for above, etc. Coming soon: Cthulhu Flashcards Jeff Okamoto hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com ..!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 15:53:22 GMT From: cmcl2!phri!bc-cis!john@RUTGERS.EDU (John L. Wynstra) Subject: Re: Lovecraft movies >So I'm not the only one who saw a similarity between The Thing and >At the Mountains of Madness, eh? It struck me immediately when I >saw the movie, ... Superficially, yes, I agree there are resemblances. Carpenter's _The Thing_ is based on JW Campbell's excellent horror/SF short story, _Who Goes There?_ as you no doubt know, and is more faithful to the original than the 50's movie (but I prefer the 50's version to Carpenter's anyway). The HPL story you are alluding to is _At The Mountains Of Madness_. I recommend it for a reading, provided you can handle HPL's writing style (newspaper report- ish, roughly reminiscent of Bram Stoker's _Dracula_). HPL would have the Thing leading the Antarctic explorers deep into Unknown Trails Underground to a lost civilization of intelligent dinosaurs...[and lunch:^]. I recommend, if you like HPL's forays into Fantasy like Randolph Carter in Opium-Land (_DoUK_), that you start reading two of *his* literary ancestors, James Branch Cabell and Lord Dunsany. I prefer HPL's brand of Horror to the modern Stephen King stuff, although I may read a little of Wheatley before I give up on the Traditionalists entirely. >movie called Yog seemed to have some elements of The Colour Out Of >Space. Yogg-Sothoth... That would be _The Dunwich Horror_ (?) with Nick Adams? >There was a movie called "20,000,000 Years to Earth" or something >like that (i don't have my book with me) that dealt with Londoners >finding this buried space ship when they were excavating for a >subway or something, and it seemed "5 Million Years to Earth" (?) the Quatermass movie, I think. John L. Wynstra US mail: Apt. 9G, 43-10 Kissena Blvd., Flushing, N.Y., 11355 UUCP: john@bc-cis.UUCP { eg, rutgers!cmcl2!phri!bc-cis!john } ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 87 18:30:37 GMT From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins) Subject: Re: In praise of Ted Sturgeon From: "Art Evans" > My other Sturgeon is _Godbody_, probably the last thing he wrote > before he died in May, 1985. It contains a short essay in parise > of Sturgeon by Robert A. Heinlein. As RAH says, the book's > message is "Love one another." Good stuff -- I liked it, though I > know that others didn't. I thought it was pretty good myself. It also has a rather interesting afterword by Stephan Donaldson. Anyway, it's one of those books you're going to either read in one sitting or toss after 10 minutes, depending on personal predispostions... > Let's hear more about Ted Sturgeon. In particular, does anyone > know of anything else in prnt? Somebody asked about "More than Human" - it's apparently in print and available as a DelRey paperback. There are usually several Sturgeon books available in the local bookstore, but an occasional raid on your favorite used book store will be needed to build up a complete collection. George Robbins uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 24 Jun 87 0827-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #305 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jun 87 0827-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #305 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 24 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 305 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - T-Shirts & Phoney Subscription Offer & Missing Filkers & Conventions (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Jun 87 11:27:37 CDT From: PM - Aviation Life Support Subject: Re: T-Shirts Nigel was asking about T-Shirts. I might be able to help if anybody is interested in getting some made. There is an outfit in Texas that is pretty reasonably priced, there is No Art Charge, No Screen Charge and all shirts are made in the USA they ship in 7 working days. Namark of Texas 3701-B WOW Corpus Christi, TX 78413 (512) 852-0252 in Texas 1-800-531-1031 in the US So what do you folks think? Please contact me if you are interested in getting more information. Ed ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 87 12:06:00 EDT From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" Subject: sf - new science fiction stories lifetime sub offer For the past few months (and perhaps earlier) in various periodicals, e.g. Locus, and in some convention program booklets, e.g. Balticon, there has been a lifetime subscription offer to sf - new science fiction stories. It would "feature stories by Hugo and Nebula award-winning authors. In addition, look for Spider Robinson's great new column, "Antinomy Mine," and George Alec Effinger's book reviews." This looked like very tempting offer and a few weeks ago I feel prey to the temptation. Unfortunately, it looks like I should have waited a few more weeks until my June Locus arrived. Apparently this magazine has folded without ever appearing. Locus says that the publisher says that they did not receive "enough quality submissions ... to fill more than one issue." I would like to hear from any other person who sent money in. Have your checks been cashed? Have you received a refund of your money or a return of your check? Have you heard anything? At this moment my check has not been cashed and I would like to know if there is any chance that I will receive my check back. I would guess that the magazine probably folded even before they received my check. Neil A. Ottenstein ARPANET: OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU BITNET: OTTEN@UMCINCOM ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 22:31:37 GMT From: svh@cca.cca.com (Susan Hammond) Subject: Missing Filkers The folks who are going to bring you the revised NESFA hymnal are hard at work. They have material from seven people that they don't have current addresses (USnail, not e-net) for, and need to get in touch with these people. If you have a US Mail address for any of them (or know someone who does, or how I might find one, or even if you ARE one of these people) please contact me via e-mail, and I will pass the info back to the right people at NESFA. Thanks! (and the names are......) Bad Company Vinnie Bartilucci Charlie (Dr. Orbit) Belov David Bradman (Livermore Crew) Cheshire Catalyst Tom Digby Mike McNally Susan Hammond svh@CCA.CCA.COM {decvax,linus,mirror}!cca!svh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 87 15:34:53 cdt From: Rich Zellich Cc: wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA Subject: Re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms Several conventions I have been to DO have provision for letting the general public into the art show and dealer's room (and the art auction, when they remember that people who have been to the art show might like to buy something, too). In my experience, it has always been a $1 or $2 charge, and not generally advertised - people had to come in off the street and ask if they could get in without being a convention member. Archon, here in St. Louis, is one of the cons with a policy like this. Also, for the first time this year, a dealer gets 1 free membership with his table(s) and the cost of the tables was NOT inflated to account for the lost membership fees (I don't know what other cons do about this; I know many give memberships with tables, but I don't know if they increase their table fees to cover it in any way). Some cons have special tables/table rates for fans, local clubs, swappers, etc., but they're not frequently advertised - you pretty much have to write or call and ask the con committee about "fan" tables. Cheers, Rich ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 May 87 18:23:36 EDT From: ingria@PREP.AI.MIT.EDU (Bob Ingria) Subject: Readercon Readercon Final Announcement Where: Holiday Inn of Boston at Brookline Brookline, Mass. When: Saturday, June 27, 1987 - Sunday, June 28, 1987 Who: Writer G.O.H. Gene Wolfe Publisher G.O.H. Mark Ziesing Other guests: James Morrow, Geary Gravel, David Hartwell, Craig Shaw Gardner, Darrell Schweitzer, Ellen Kushner, J.F. Rivkin, Stanley Wiater, Michael Swanwick, James Patrick Kelly, Terri Windling, Jeffrey A. Carver, and others What: Readercon will be a place where people who relate to imaginative literature as literature can gather, a place where readers can meet writers, publishers, editors, critics, and each other in a pleasant, fun atmosphere suited to intelligent, lively discussion of ideas. The program will include: Panels Discussion Groups Readings Hucksters' Room and Auctions Speeches and Interviews with Guests of Honor but: No Video, Film, or Gaming programs No events for costumes No weapons (period) No pets No art show (this year) Deadlines: Pre-registration: June 5, 1987 Hotel registration: June 6, 1987 For more information call: Bob Colby (617) 576-0415 evenings (Eastern Daylight Time) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 87 09:27:35 GMT From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI > ...but it is in the interest of the people selling stuff there to > get as many people into that room as possible, not limited to > those officially attending the con. Also, it appears that the > people who are *working* in the huckster room, sitting behind the > tables and selling stuff, get no benefit from the con programming > or other functions, and really should not be required to have con > memberships or pay attendance. That is, they have to spend all > their time sitting or standing in there, working at selling stuff, > so they can't go to panels, see films, or anything else but work > at peddling their wares. So why should they pay for con benefits > they cannot enjoy? They (or their employer) have already paid for > the table space, after all. > This leads me to think that it would be best if the huckster room > was treated as "external" to the rest of the con. That is, anyone > from off the street can come into the huckster room and buy stuff, > and the people working in that area have no need to have con > memberships or officially "attend" the con.... > > As far as I could see at the few cons I've attended, this has NOT > been the case. The people working in the huckster room had to buy > memberships or pay admission to the con, in addition to paying for > their tables. ...In addition, the huckster room was not > accessible to the general public; you had to display a con badge > or pass to get into it. [...] Maybe I'm wrong. Do cons in > general operate the way I have described, or am I under a > misapprehension? Are there cons where the huckster room is > accessible to the general public in addition to the con attendees? Yes, you are under a misapprehension. Actually, a couple. For one, I have attended cons where the huckster room was open to the general public, for precisely the reasons you list. I've also been to cons where there was a special class of membership, at a reduced rate, which entitled the person to access the hucksters' room but not the rest of the con. Secondly, whether a dealer is "confined" to the hucksters' room is completely up to him. I don't think I've ever been to a con at which there *weren't* dealers who closed up their tables for an hour or two to attend a panel they want to see, or to check out the art show. In some cases, the dealer has a friend or assistant to watch the table while he goes out to attend a panel or whatever. Plus, there are plenty of cons that have programming in the evening which the dealers can attend while the hucksters' room is closed. And last, but not least, there are many dealers who are primarily fans, and their first concern is attending the convention. Selling books is merely a sideline that helps them defray the cost of attending the con, or if its a business, it allows (or used to allow --- I don't know how the new tax laws affect them) them to deduct their con expenses from their taxes. One dealer I know fairly well keeps his table open only long enough to sell enough to cover his expenses for that con. Once he's made that, he closes down for the rest of the con. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 21:12:06 GMT From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates) Subject: re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms Let me add a third misconception, and address some good reasons not to have an open dealers' room. I speak as a convention organizer, and as a trustee who must consider the legal consequences of certain actions. Third misconception: dealers must always buy memberships over and above their table price. The purchase of a table usually includes either a membership for the dealer, or the right to purchase memberships at a reduced rate, or both. Reasons not to have an open dealers' room: there are financial, legal and tax reasons. Financial reason: the con does not take a cut of the dealers' sales, and does not wish to for legal and tax reasons. If anyone wants to come in off the street, let him purchase a one day membership. Legal reason: attendees at a convention have signed a waiver, absolving the convention from liability except in case of gross negligence. Off the street customers could hold the convention and the hotel to a higher standard. As it is, liability insurance is impossible to obtain. The additional risk is unacceptable. Tax reason: most conventions are sponsored by 501(c)(3) tax-exempt corporations, whose charters require the convention to be run for public, and not for private, interests. A dealers' room open only to attendees is a convenience to the attendees, pursuant to the educational and literary purposes of the convention. An open dealers' room might be construed by Infernal Revenue as a purely commercial endeavor, and hence could endanger the tax-exempt status of the convention. Remember, the hucksters' room is a service to the attendees, and an amenity of the convention. It takes considerable effort to run one, and not a little expense. Why should the Committee WANT random people off the street coming in without either paying or rendering some service (such as staffing) for which free memberships are granted? Robert A. West Q4071@PUCC US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place Suite A North Brunswick, NJ 08902 VOICE : (201) 821-7055 ...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 22:00:42 GMT From: mcb@LLL-TIS.ARPA (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms Q4071@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes: > Let me . . . address some good reasons not to have an open > dealers' room. I speak as a convention organizer, and as a > trustee who must consider the legal consequences of certain > actions. > > Reasons not to have an open dealers' room: there are financial, > legal and tax reasons. > > Financial reason: [. . .] > > Legal reason: attendees at a convention have signed a waiver, > absolving the convention from liability except in case of gross > negligence. Off the street customers could hold the convention > and the hotel to a higher standard. As it is, liability insurance > is impossible to obtain. The additional risk is unacceptable. Whoa! I have attended many conventions, and do not remember ever signing a waiver releasing the convention or hotel from ANY liability. Where is this waiver? Usually you buy a membership by filling out a short form with name and address, either in advance or at the door, and receiving [progress reports in the case of advance membership and] a badge and program materials. In the program book there are usually set forth some rules about weapons policy, costumes, rowdyness, parties, art show, etc., which may (I stress "may") constitute contractual language, enforceable by terminating membership with or without refund. But I have never seen a liability waiver (which, in many states, MUST be in certain language and refer to certain statutes) in a con membership. I would urge the author's con com to seek competent legal advice about this matter; it sounds like they are setting themselves up for a big disappointment someday... > Tax reason: most conventions are sponsored by 501(c)(3) tax-exempt > corporations, whose charters require the convention to be run for > public, and not for private, interests. True of the larger cons. Many smaller ones are run by unincorporated associations, which need only be "nonprofit" to escape taxation. Of course, donations to them are not tax deductible as in the case of 501(c)(3) organizations. > A dealers' room open only to attendees is a convenience to the > attendees, pursuant to the educational and literary purposes of > the convention. An open dealers' room might be construed by > Infernal Revenue as a purely commercial endeavor, and hence could > endanger the tax-exempt status of the convention. What?? OF COURSE tax-exempt organizations are permitted to have "commercial endeavors". Hasn't anyone ever heard of a church rummage sale, or bingo, or a PTA "Las Vegas night"? It is permitted to charge for dealer booths, take a cut of the profits, or even run the sale themselves and keep all the profits. People have some interesting misconceptions about what a "non-profit" organization means. It DOESN'T mean that you can't make a profit. It doesn't mean that you can't make a HUGE profit. It DOES mean that you can't DISTRIBUTE the profit to the owners/members of the organization. And in the case of 501(c)(3) organizations, you must exist for one or more reasons out of a particular set of educational, cultural, religious, etc. purposes. I reiterate that I hope the con com in which the author is involved seeks some good legal advice. Regardless of the policy issues involved in whether the hucksters' room should be open to the public (I see good arguments on both sides), it sounds like they have received some rather bad legal advice. Michael C. Berch Member of the California Bar ARPA: mcb@lll-tis.arpa UUCP: {ames,ihnp4,lll-crg,lll-lcc,mordor}!lll-tis!mcb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 24 Jun 87 0848-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #306 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jun 87 0848-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #306 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 24 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 306 Today's Topics: Books - Computers in SF (4 msgs) & Robotech (4 msgs) & Cover Art (6 msgs) & Title Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Jun 87 12:06:00 EDT From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" Subject: responses to digests 271:276 From SF DIGEST #276 Dick Botting asks about fictional computers: >Do you know of any others? What do you think of them. I cannot think of any that have not already been mentioned that I, myself, have read. Nevertheless, at DISCLAVE there was talk about a book called VALENTINA by Marc Steigler (I know the author is correct, the title may be different, though. Valentina may just be the main character.). The people mentioning it were highly praising it. The way I remember the description Valentina supposedly lives in a computer network or such and has to steal computer time to survive. NEIL A. OTTENSTEIN Arpanet: OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU Bitnet: OTTEN@UMCINCOM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 87 16:49 EST From: (maroC ddoT) Subject: Re: Fictional Computers Anyone heard of these Fictional Computer books? The Cybernetic Samurai - Victor Milan A great AI story. An american scientist develops an AI in Japan with Samurai values. The scientist, an elderly woman, develops a strange but believable relationaship with the AI (first as a mother, then as a lover). Note: The AI is not a robot, but a large supercomputer. Software - Rudy Rucker "Preserve your software, the rest is meat". I really like this one. VALIS - Phillip K. Dick Well, this is stretching it a bit. The book isn't really about a Computer, it's about The Second Coming, Insanity, Death, Mythology, all tied together by the possible existence of VALIS (Vast Active Living Intelligence System). Less than Human - ?? (I forgot the author) Kind of funny, kind of awful. An android on the run from the most powerful man in the world (an ex-token black guy from IBM). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 87 16:51 EST From: Subject: sf-computers Another SF computer is TOGUMISHA(misspelled) in Victor Milan's "Cybernetic Samuria". It's about a 6th generation computer developed by an American computer scientist(women) in Japan. The computer gains life through the Godel principle...It develops on its own through random inputs. "True awareness is brought about through chaos." Or "true randomness- underlies awareness is brought about through chaos." Or "true randomness- underlies the secret of consciousness, artificial and otherwise". Rod Haxton ------------------------------ Date: 19-Jun-1987 1211 From: wood%genral.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (Celeste :Disk Engineering From: DTN522-2590) Subject: Re: Robot names How about Ralph? I think it was the name of the computer on the "Whiz Kids" TV show... but the real claim to fame for this name is that it is probably the first true robot name. My English Lit Proff held a book up in class one day and waved it at us very temptingly. I believe the name of it was RALPH 1757 (the number could be wrong). Anyway this book, according to my professor was the first Robot story ever printed. It was published circa 1910, either 1907 or 1911. (Hey this was 4 years ago..) I no longer know the author. I never did find a copy of the book to read and the Prof refused to lend his. The robots in it are probably better termed androids today, but the book also has an extreme number of far out inventions which are actually real today. I think the Prof mentioned a number like 105! Celeste Wood ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 87 14:54:47 GMT From: seismo!garfield!sean1@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Robotech Saga: The novelization I have just finished reading the five available volumes of Robotech. Has anyone out there read them? How many hated the ending of the fourth book, "Battlehymn", when the narrator gives away more than he should about the future of Lisa and Rick? Overall the series is great. I find myself leafing through the pages with a speed never before attained when reading other books. I stay up late at night, not able to put the things down. I must admit that, although it is all out of phase now, a week or so ago, I was reading the comics, (the last two or three), watching the TV show, and reading the novels, and everything was happening simultaneously. The current comics, and the TV show were at the same point as where I was in the novels. It was pretty interesting, almost seeing the story in 3-D. Sure, it is a sappy romance, with lots of technology thrown in, and up until the fifth book, it is a rather light story. So, what I want to know is: The last book ends with "THE END". Is it really the end of the Lisa and Rick/Minmei era? Is the sixth book in print yet? And if so, can someone who has it tell me if Lisa and Rick split up for good? Does it skip a generation and go directly to the Robotech Masters saga with Dana Sterling and all? Is this the last we know of Rick and Lisa? It seems a little stupid, but I got to know. (Most of the flames that this letter will generate will come from my site, I know...) If you don't want to give too much away on the net, E-mail me. Sean Huxter P.O. Box 366 Springdale NF, Canada A0J 1T0 UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1 CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 87 23:16:11 GMT From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura) Subject: Re: Robotech Saga: The novelization To answer one of Sean's questions, the story of Rick and Lisa doesn't end with book 5. In fact, it won't exactly end after book 6, but maybe that's giving too much away. The books are surprisingly good. The writer has taken, what I consider to be relatively few liberties with the material onhand. In fact, it's closer to the TV show than the comic books. When the movie comes out SEE IT! I've been looking at some Japanese magazines which show stills from the original version. As good as some of the scenes were on the TV series, the movie's scenery makes them look like they were done by pikers. Not everything about the movie is better than the TV series. You simply can't develop characters as deeply in a couple of hours as you can in 10 - 20 hours (I've never calculated). It'll be interesting if they cut some scenes in North America in order to slip it into a GP rating or whether they'll leave it intact (and probably end up with a Restricted) rating. It raises an interesting question. One thing I really want to find out is whether there'll be any new songs for Minmei to sing. I've heard that there are *many* record albums in Japan as spin off from the TV show. One person told me there were 15 *albums*. I find that a bit hard to swallow, but it seems clear that the people doing the voices in the Anime generally are well known there. Cheers! Jim Omura 2A King George's Drive Toronto (416) 652-3880 ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 87 04:47:19 GMT From: seismo!scgvaxd!stb!michael@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael) Subject: Re: Robotech Saga: The novelization sean1@garfield.UUCP (Sean Huxter) writes: >One comment, though. The voicing of the TV series lacks in the >sponteneity of live acting. In cartooning, the voices are done as >if it were a radio play. Then the mouths are drawn to sync with >the voices. It gives a more natural feeling than trying to mouth >the words in sync to an already animated face. It makes the series >sound like it is for kids, which it certainly is not. Robotech was originally 3 different Japanese series, done by the same animation company. Because you need quantity, not quality in the american market, they dicided to combine the 3, and introduce protoculture as a linking element. The necessary redubbing gives the "lip synch" effect; but what gives you things like ... He only stunned me in the legs Lets take out there Computer escorts, Robot attack ships, Android fighters, etc., etc. And what are they always drinking? Originally, it wasn't for kids. They re-aimed it at kids when they translated it. The movie was originally marketed at kids, when they realized that they didn't know how to market it for the adult crowds that showed up. Yes, the movie was done based on the american version. (this is what I've heard, may not be completely accurate). Michael Gersten seismo!scgvaxd!stb!michael ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 21:16:21 GMT From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto) Subject: Re: Robotech Saga: The novelization Jim Omura (jiomura@lsuc.UUCP) writes: > To answer one of Sean's questions, the story of Rick and Lisa >doesn't end with book 5. In fact, it won't exactly end after book >6, but maybe that's giving too much away. The Robotech books will comprise 12 books. 6 for Macross Saga, 3 for Southern Cross, 3 for Mospeada. Then they will continue with "Robotech II: The Sentinels". > The books are surprisingly good. The writer has taken, what I >consider to be relatively few liberties with the material onhand. >In fact, it's closer to the TV show than the comic books. When the >movie comes out SEE IT! I've been looking at some Japanese >magazines which show stills from the original version. As good as >some of the scenes were on the TV series, the movie's scenery makes >them look like they were done by pikers. Not everything about the >movie is better than the TV series. You simply can't develop >characters as deeply in a couple of hours as you can in 10-20 hours >(I've never calculated). Which movie are you referring to? There are two: _Macross 84: Do You Remember Love?_, and _Robotech: The Movie_. If you mean the first, then definitely SEE IT! The quality of animation is absolutely INCREDIBLE! If you mean the second, then see _Megazone 23_ instead. That's where Harmony Gold took it from, plus they added some of their own animation (Yawn...). BTW, the Macross episodes would last 15 hours (36 episodes * 25 minutes each). Robotech may be less due to commercials. >It'll be interesting if they cut some scenes in North America in >order to slip it into a GP rating or whether they'll leave it >intact (and probably end up with a Restricted) rating. It >raises an interesting question. This suggests to me that you mean "Robotech: The Movie". They cut out all the extreme violence and nudity. R ratings don't tend to draw many little kids.... > One thing I really want to find out is whether there'll be any >new songs for Minmei to sing. I've heard that there are *many* >record albums in Japan as spin off from the TV show. One person >told me there were 15 *albums*. I find that a bit hard to swallow, >but it seems clear that the people doing the voices in the Anime >generally are well known there. Well, in "The Sentinels", Reba West (and one other singer) get exactly one new song to sing -- a duet) (I won't explain the circumstances). Jeff Okamoto hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com ..!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 87 12:02:56 EDT From: "Morris M. Keesan" Subject: Cover Art Before we get too down on cover artists, remember that they often have as little control as the author over what goes on the cover. I've heard many complaints from artists who actually take the time to read the book and do the research, only to have their sketches rejected by an art director who hasn't done either. The art director generally works for the publicity department, and there the bottom line is "What will sell?" Accuracy is not an issue, any more than it is in writing back cover blurbs. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 87 22:09:33 GMT From: cmcl2!phri!westpt!sunybcs!canisius!salley@RUTGERS.EDU (David From: Salley) Subject: Cover Screw-Ups The two worst cover screw ups that I can recall are the Star Trek novel "Demon Lord" which depicted a nine-foot-tall feline alien as a seven foot human and "Friday" which depicted the dark-skinned , dark-haired heroine as a fair-haired, fair-skinned Norwegian blonde. David P. Salley Usenet : ...!seismo!rochester!rocksanne!sunybcs!canisius!salley Canisius College 2001 Main Street Buffalo, New York 14208 USnail: 49 Barry Place Buffalo, New York 14213 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 12:06:00 EDT From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" Subject: responses to digests 271:276 From: kevinb@crash.cts.com (Kevin Belles) > Anybody know anyone besides Alan Gutierrez, Don Maitz, and >Darrell K. Sweet who actually seem to take the time to research a >cover? It is not always the fault of the artist, though. As I have heard it at various conventions, some publishers sometimes dictate to artists what they want to see on the cover or request arbitrary changes to what they have done. Often these changes have nothing to do with the contents of the book but reflect what someone thinks might sell more copies. NEIL A. OTTENSTEIN Arpanet: OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU Bitnet: OTTEN@UMCINCOM ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 87 23:49:15 GMT From: citi!uiucdcs!sq!bms@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Cover Screw-Ups Oh, WELL... Have you seen Rowena's cover for the french translation of CJCherryh's PRIDE OF CHANUR? The title is CHANUR, and the cover has a very muscular cat-man (human with cat-like face, a close layer of reddish-brown fur, a mane and cat ears) holding a very weak-looking cat-woman (out of hollywood) in his arms. If you've even read the back cover blurbs of the english version, you'll know just how ridiculous this is! Does anyone else out there dislike Rowena's artwork as I do? I know not all cover artists CAN get access to manuscripts and authors' input as people like Whelan do, but I don't like Rowena's work on it's OWN. Becky ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 18:02:20 GMT From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) Subject: Re: Cover Screw-Ups salley@canisius.UUCP (David Salley) writes: > The two worst cover screw ups that I can recall are the Star Trek > novel "Demon Lord" which depicted a nine-foot-tall feline alien as > a seven foot human and "Friday" which depicted the dark-skinned , > dark-haired heroine as a fair-haired, fair-skinned Norwegian > blonde. Well, another one is the poster/cover for Star Trek IV. San Fransisco is on the wrong side of the Golden Gate Bridge. Eiji Hirai USMail: Swarthmore College Swarthmore PA 19081 phone: for the summer it's (215)544-5349 UUCP: {seismo, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai ARPA: swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 87 16:41:01 GMT From: rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran) Subject: Re: Cover Screw-Ups bms@sq.UUCP (bms) writes: >Does anyone else out there dislike Rowena's artwork as I do? I >know not all cover artists CAN get access to manuscripts and >authors' input as people like Whelan do, but I don't like Rowena's >work on it's OWN. Rowena Morrill seems to have a pre-occupation with bare skin. In a convention panel she said she basically likes to do them that way, and the author/publisher usually doesn't gripe enough to make her change them. I was pleasantly surprised though to see her recent covers for Anne McCaffrey's Harper Hall paperbacks, where Menolly was reasonably dressed. Guess Annie made her feelings on the matter clear :-). Bob Halloran UUCP: rutgers!mtune!rkh home ph: (201)251-7514 Internet: rkh@mtune.ATT.COM USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 87 03:07:01 GMT From: sugar!peter@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter DaSilva) Subject: Re: Some comments on *Devils*, by Asimov, Greenberg, & Waugh There is a story I read once where the *demon* summoned the *human* down to hell for some purpose for which a real, live human was required. The human pulled a beautiful diabolical twist on the demon at the end. Frederick Brown-ish type story. Any ideas? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 24 Jun 87 0857-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #307 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jun 87 0857-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #307 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 24 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 307 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Star Trek (15 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Jun 87 10:44:18 EDT From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) From: Subject: Very minor correction(?) I think red shirts were ship's services, rather than engineering only. That would explain why security and engineering and communications were the same color--in the movies, it was more like 6 or 7 colors on the insignia. Anybody got a movie-making guide to check what the colors were? ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 14:28:00 GMT From: cmcl2!acf3!sxt2443@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia >Sometimes Scotty stands around, watching what they do, but they >never get to command. > >Does that make any sense? Yes it does, if you take the US Merchant Marine as an example. Engineering officers are considered below decks officers and are not in the chain of command (command requires a different license). Brian Reynolds (this is a friend's account send flames, etc. to: c00.b-reynolds@nyu20.nyu.edu ) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 20:55:03 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: The Big E just don't land! After I was done flaming, I found some time to look it up. So here is the quote from "The Making of Star Trek". (all caps is Roddenberry, the rest is Whitfield) "The series format hinted that the _Enterprise_ 'rarely lands upon a planet'. This was quickly changed to 'never'. LAND A SHIP 14 STORIES TALL ON A PLANET SURFACE EVERY WEEK? NOT ONLY WOULD IT HAVE BLOWN OUR ENTIRE WEEKLY BUDGET BUT JUST SUGGESTING IT WOULD HAVE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE RUINED MY REPUTATION IN THE INDUSTRY FOREVER." The quote's from page 43. They go on to say, being forced to do this made GR invent the transporter, so crew could get into the plot more quickly. Hope this clears everything up. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Drive Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 (h) (703)749-2315 (w) ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 19-Jun-1987 1524 From: vickrey%csc32.DEC@decwrl.dec.com As somebody else noted, Sulu was not in "Journey to Babel", he was in Georgia doing location shooting for "The Green Berets". Scotty was not in "Journey to Babel". Kirk ordered him to the bridge after Spock and McCoy departed for sickbay, and then countermanded that when the alien began its attack. At the end, when the crisis was over, he turned command over to Chekov. James Doohan did not appear in this episode at all. I always thought the show where Uhura should have had command was "Catspaw" - Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scott, and Sulu are all on the planet, so they brought the semi-regular DeSalle up from Engineering. Susan Vickrey ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 87 17:17:19 GMT From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu Subject: Re: On Star Trek chain of command and other foolishness From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu > I am amused at the horde of letters inspired by the fictional >Enterprise "chain of command." Shall we make the following >concessions to logic, honesty, and reality? But that would spoil all the fun! :-) Rationalizing continuity problems in a series (TV or print) is an ancient and honorable practice. I doubt (hope, rather) that no one takes any of this at all seriously. BTW, if we are going to be historical about things, a Captain of a ship has no post, no duty and stands no watch. His place is wherever HE feels is most critical (even off-ship). If it works, he is rarely criticized. If not, even the fact that he was doing the "right" (i.e., by the book) thing may be no defense. So your comments about Kirk's place do not apply, except in the event of an hypothetical Board of Inquiry. GR and crew set themselves up for this sort of thing in their first- season interviews, where they asserted that they had spent much time making the command structure, missions and technology "reasonable", and that they would avoid continuity problems. Robert A. West Q4071@PUCC US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place Suite A North Brunswick, NJ 08902 VOICE : (201) 821-7055 ...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 87 20:43:49 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner) writes: >>Notice, too, that Uhura wears red, which seems to be the >>Engineering color, not Science (Science is blue, Command is that >>yucky gold color). > >True, she wears a red uniform, but then so do Security personel, >and they SURE aren't engineering! :-) Red is Ship's Services, is it not? This would seem to encompass Communications, Engineering, *and* Security. Now if they'd only outfit the cannon-fodder (``redshirts'') the way they did in ST:TMP... Brandon S. Allbery aXcess Company 6615 Center St. #A1-105 Mentor, OH 44060-4101 +01 216 974 9210 {decvax,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 87 21:07:07 GMT From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Star Trek novels ST801179@BROWNVM.BITNET: >I have to take exception with the statement that Star Trek novels >are badly written. True, there are some turkeys (Mutiny on the >Enterprise springs to mind), but others like THE FINAL REFLECTION >and THE WOUNDED SKY are classics in they're own right, not just as >part of a classic series (no flames please). The current novel, >DREAMS OF THE RAVEN, is an excellent look at Dr. McCoy. 90% of X is crap, for any X (including ST novels). Also, DREAMS OF THE RAVEN was a good study of Dr. McCoy, but not good Star Trek. The ST novels I like best are: THE FINAL REFLECTION, John M. Ford (*the* definitive work on the Klingons) THE WOUNDED SKY, Diane Duane MY ENEMY, MY ALLY, Diane Duane (giving insights on the Romulan Empire) However, not all of them succeed: WEB OF THE ROMULANS, M. S. Murdoch (which gives a different view of the Romulan Empire; alas, the author falls into the trap of taking "Romulan" at face value -- the Romulan Empire is little different from the final stages of the old Roman Empire). I don't have much hope for VISITORS FROM THE SKY, but I intend to read it anyway. If I ignored *all* ST novels because many are bad, I'd never have gotten to read THE FINAL REFLECTION. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 87 04:19:05 GMT From: citi!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!unrvax!tahoe!malc@RUTGERS.EDU (Malcolm L. From: Carlock) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia In reply to the speculation about why Lt. Uhura was never given the con in the original ST series -- According to David Gerrold in "The World of Star Trek" (either that or TMOST), There was at least one script in which Uhura was to have assumed the con, but the studio heads of the day objected to the idea of a woman in charge of the Enterprise. The script was changed, no doubt with reluctance. (However, Uhura DID take the con in at least one of the animated episodes, the one where there are these beautiful women all alone on this planet, see, and they send out these transmissions (C-4's, actually **) that turn the wills of men to mush, so she, as the highest-ranking female officer, takes the con. That's still kind of a cop-out reason to have a woman in command, but at least it's a start.) Oh no . . . I didn't give a ST Universe reason for her not getting the con . . . I can feel the flames coming . . . AAAAAAAAIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!! But seriously, there have already been so many good STU reasons posted, I didn't feel that I could add to them. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 87 23:45:17 GMT From: darrow@merlin.unm.edu (Matthew Harmsen-U) Subject: Enterprise landing gear I was shocked when I noticed it, but the new Enterprise (from the movies) does have landing gear on the primary (saucer-shaped) hull for the use in landing in the event of a catastrophe requiring the disposal of the secondary hull. This is from the break-down poster of the Enterprise that came out shortly after the first movie. The blueprints for the old Enterprise do not mention them, so I must assume that it doesn't have them. Darrow ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 07:42:04 GMT From: gatech!sdcsvax!nosc!humu!uhccux!todd@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Star Trek -- Ensigns and Crewmen Q4071@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes: >man. Many episodes contains Chiefs and crewmen, while others >appear to contain nothing but officers. Worse, many contain no >evidence of anyone who isn't a lieutenant except for Kirk, Spock, >McCoy, Scotty and Chekov. I seem to recall that Roddenberry once wrote that "since all Enterprise crewmen are 'astronauts', all of them must be officers." Not sure where I read it. Might have been in "The Making of Star Trek" published in the late 60s or early 70s...todd Todd Ogasawara U. of Hawaii Center for Teaching Excellence UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!nosc!uhccux!todd ARPA: uhccux!todd@nosc.MIL INTERNET: todd@uhccux.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 13:39:33 GMT From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) Subject: Re: ST:TNG Visit #2 mcdermot@bgsuvax.UUCP (mark mcdermott) writes: >rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes: >> They were shooting on the planet set they day I was there. >> Present were Number One, Troi, Yar, LaForge and Data. >> >> Number One has exactly the same hairstyle as the young (TV) James >> T. Kirk. This may be coincidence, or maybe Kirk's his hero? > >Yes, but is he wearing the classic pointed sideburns everyone wore >in the series? :') As a matter of fact, yes. That's the first thing I noticed, then I noticed it was the same haircut. Gene must think pointed sideburns are the one thing that didn't change in the Federation in 78 years. Rich Kolker 8519 White Pine Dr. Manassas Park, VA 22111 (703)361-1290 ..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 87 20:04:04 GMT From: umnd-cs!umn-cs!dicome!plate@RUTGERS.EDU (Douglas B. Plate) Subject: Re: The Big E just don't land! > Aha, but the Enterprise is capable of landing on a planet. It > would take a pretty nasty storm to make that difficult, wouldn't > it? I just had to comment on this since I know the answer!! Yes, the Enterprise could land on a planet (I,ll put my smiley face in right here, so that the die-hards don't letter-bomb me before they finish reading! :-) but the planet had to be equipped with this special "stand" that had a base with a curved pedestal coming out of it. The top of the pedestal fit into a slot on the the bottom of the Enterprise. How do I know this? I HAD THE MODEL KIT WHEN I WAS 10 YEARS OLD!! Doug Plate OH, and the green things on the top (bridge) and bottom of the saucer lit up too. Two AA batteries not included. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 21:01:59 GMT From: harvard!talcott!encore!paradis@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Paradis) Subject: Re: Star Trek Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM writes: >Rumors from the con circuit are that the transwarp experiment >failed and the new warp system IS NOT transwarp. Darned if I know >what it is, though. Uh, transwarp "EXPERIMENT"?? If Transwarp was an experiment, then why did Starfleet go to the trouble and expense of building it into their biggest ship ever? You'd think they'd try it out in less expensive circumstances first! Or is it one of those things that works fine in small engines but doesn't scale up too well? Jim Paradis Encore Computer Corp. 257 Cedar Hill St. Marlboro MA 01752 (617) 460-0500 {linus|necntc|ihnp4|decvax|talcott}!encore!paradis ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 87 19:24:53 GMT From: seismo!gould!novavax!usfvax2!chips@RUTGERS.EDU (Chip Salzenberg) Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia davidg@pnet02.UUCP writes: >bryan@druhi.ATT.COM (BryanJT) writes: >>Notice, too, that Uhura wears red, which seems to be the >>Engineering color, not Science (Science is blue, Command is that >>yucky gold color). > >True, she wears a red uniform, but then so do Security personel, >and they SURE aren't engineering! :-) Red is the "Support" color. It seems that "Support" is anything that isn't Command or Science. Chip Salzenberg A.T. Engineering, Tampa, FL {any backbone}!uunet!ateng!chip chips@usfvax2.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 87 15:14:47 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) Subject: Re: On Star Trek chain of command and other foolishness Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes: >Kirk's job should have been to stay on his ship, receive reports, >and make dispassionate decisions. Similarly with the other senior >personnel, with the possible exception of Spock. > It gets even more ridiculous with the CO, the Exec, AND the 3rd >in command (Kirk/Spock/Sulu) beaming down on some occasions. Is Sulu really the 3rd in command? > Chalk this down to what plays on TV, pure and simple. Let's not >waste our typing time trying to justify the illogical. But often it is great fun trying to explain away seeming inconsistencies without falling back on "the author made a mistake". People have been doing it for years with the Sherlock Holmes stories. In fact, the main rule of the "game" is precisely that you have to assume that the author did not make a mistake. Having said that, I unfortunately have to agree that no reasonable explanation exists for the behaviour of the Enterprise command staff. I had a few ideas years ago (before the movies), but they've been shot down by now. >That Uhura didn't conn the ship for two simple reasons: race and >sex. Also a communication officer would be outside the line of command, surely? Just as engineering officers are... >That considering the proper role and duties of an executive >officer, Spock would have never done? Yes, yes, I know, Spock is >incredibly able, smart, the perfect officer, and so on and so on. >That hardly excuses the logical fact that when the CO is unable to >conn the ship, for whatever reason, the exec's place is ON THE >BRIDGE. Period. Since science officers beam down to planets and >suchlike...however able, Spock lacks the capacity for creating a >duplicate of himself to be two places at once. I have a set of blue-prints of the Enterprise with a list of crew positions. Not only are there _both_ an Executive Officer and a Sience Officer mentioned, but the rank of the chief navigation and communication officers are given as lieutenant-commanders (logical with a full captain for CO and commanders for excecutive, sience and engineering officers). Now, my theory is that just prior to the first ST episode, a meteor struck the brigde while the Exec, the CNO and the CCO was on it. Unable to get replacements, Kirk had Spock assume the duties of the Exec and allowed Sulu and Uhura to carry on as department heads. Of course, this still does not explain Kirk's gallavanting about... > The Star Trek series was designed as entertainment, not as an >accurate depiction or extrapolation of military practices or >protocol, either now or in the forseeable future. Another possibility is that there _are_ an Exec, a CNO and a CCO aboard the Enterprise. Why we never see them? Ahh, their battle station is on the auxillary brigde, of course! So whenever Kirk, Spock, Sulu and the rest are down on a planet, the fate of the Enterprise rests securely in the capable hands (tentacles?) of Mr. Inconnu, the 1st Officer of the Enterprise! Only, he's so shy, you see, so they couldn't get permission to use him in the series... Hans Rancke University of Copenhagen mcvax!diku!rancke ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 29 Jun 87 0823-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #308 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Jun 87 0823-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #308 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 29 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 308 Today's Topics: Books - Brin (3 msgs) & Sturgeon & Verne (2 msgs) & Vernor Vinge & Wells & Zelazny & Cover Art (2 msgs) & Demons (2 msgs) & Horror (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Jun 1987 11:43 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: uplift war I just finished read the _Uplift War_ and noticed a few things which I haven't yet seen mentioned: what is this bit about humanity being forbidden to uplift other races? In both _Startide Rising_ and _Sundiver_ mention is made of uplifting dogs and gorillas; in fact, in _Sundiver_ it says something like, "And when Culla learned that Jacob had been involved in the uplift of chimps and dolphins, and more recently dogs and gorillas..." Next question: how long do these people live? _Uplift War_ reveals that the events in _Sundiver_ took place 200 years before SR and UW, yet both Tom Orley and Gillian Baskin in SR knew Jacob Demwa from Sundiver. On one hand, this seems to imply that people live a very long time, but on the other hand, plenty of references also exist to indicate that they don't. Maybe Jacob spent a 100+ years in D-level hyperspace... ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 87 06:56:18 GMT From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;608C) Subject: Re: uplift war From: "Stephen R. Balzac" > I just finished read the _Uplift War_ and noticed a few things >which I haven't yet seen mentioned: what is this bit about humanity >being forbidden to uplift other races? In both _Startide Rising_ >and _Sundiver_ mention is made of uplifting dogs and gorillas; in >fact, in _Sundiver_ it says something like, "And when Culla learned >that Jacob had been involved in the uplift of chimps and dolphins, >and more recently dogs and gorillas..." I noticed this discrepancy, but so what? There are many other minor problems with these books. I'll detail them if you want, but they don't seem to detract too much from the main story. >Next question: how long do these people live? _Uplift War_ reveals >that the events in _Sundiver_ took place 200 years before SR and >UW, yet both Tom Orley and Gillian Baskin in SR knew Jacob Demwa >from Sundiver. On one hand, this seems to imply that people live a >very long time, but on the other hand, plenty of references also >exist to indicate that they don't. Maybe Jacob spent a 100+ years >in D-level hyperspace... You might remember the woman (sorry I can't remember her name) in Sundiver who had been on a interplanetary voyage was born some 90 Earth years before but had a physical age of about 25. Evidently, the early Earth ships allowed a lot of time dilation. I attributed this to the fact that some forms of FTL travel required the ship to go to nearly the speed of light to work. However that was before D-level hyperspace was mentioned. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 87 23:15:31 GMT From: harvard!linus!dartvax!derek@RUTGERS.EDU (Derek J. LeLash) Subject: Brin, Donaldson, & language I must confess that I'm surprised to see people flaming Brin for using strange language to excess in "The Uplift War." The erudite passage which has been quoted on the net (Athaclena's perceptions of the humans at an Uplift ceremony) did strike me as being needlessly complicated, but it stood out considerably from most of the rest of the book. It's almost as if Brin revised the manuscript in only a few places to include rare/newly coined words. This contrasts with Donaldson, for whom using unusual words seems to be reflexive. I feel that they add something to the story, but maybe I'm biased since I'd heard many of them before. One that took me a long time to find was 'vlei.' Try it yourself (or better yet, use it in your next Scrabble game :-) Derek LeLash {wherever}!dartvax!derek derek@dartmouth.edu ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 87 22:23:10 GMT From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland) Subject: Re: In praise of Ted Sturgeon From: "Art Evans" >Let's hear more about Ted Sturgeon. In particular, does anyone >know of anything else in prnt? I have Case And The Dreamer, Star Shine, More Than Human, and The Worlds of Theodore Sturgeon in my library. It's been a long time since I read them, but More Than Human is one of the most memorable books I've ever read. I don't know if any of these are still in print, but it wouldn't suprise me to see them reprinted. pyramid!pyrtech!nancym ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 87 15:58:06 GMT From: slb@drutx.att.com (Sue Brezden) Subject: Jules Verne (really a flame) >By the way, any Jules Verne fans out there? I've read a lot of his >works, but have a hard time finding any of his less popular novels >still in print. Suggestions on where to find any will be >appreciated. And when you do find his works, they are often abridged. Gack! Does anyone else hate this as much as I do? Why anyone doesn't want to read the work as the author wrote it is beyond me. And you often don't know it's abridged until you get it home and start reading the small print on the publishing info page. Jules Verne books are ones that you should always check this page on. Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 87 15:43:58 GMT From: gatech!amd!tc@RUTGERS.EDU (Tom Crawford) Subject: Re: Jules Verne (really a flame) slb@drutx.ATT.COM (Sue Brezden) writes: >>By the way, any Jules Verne fans out there? I've read a lot of >>his works, >And when you do find his works, they are often abridged. Gack! "Some of Verne's best books are crudely abridged in English. Others are simply not yet available in our language. What is available is often badly translated, full of literary and technical errors that are not Verne's. "Passages omitted from these "standard translations" are ofter Verne's most heavily political, philosophical, and scientific passages. They include some of Verne's finest literary efforts, too. These cuts-often subtracting 30 percent to 40 percent of Verne's text from the English editions-naturally weaken his story line, his characterization, his humor, and the integrity of his ideas." From The_Annotated_Jules_Verne, Walter James Miller. The translation he gives is very different from the Mercier/Roth translation. Get it if you can. You'll be glad you did. Tom Crawford ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 87 02:08:36 GMT From: cit-vax!elroy!nrcvax!nrc-ut!wicat!caeco!byuadam!iconsys!mcd@RUTG From: ERS.EDU (Mark Dakins) Subject: Re: Fictional Computers I am surprised no one has mentioned _True Names_ by Vernor Vinge. I think that it is one of the better written "computer science fiction" stories in addition to having the most realistic computers and technology. It has some of the flavor of a good fantasy story while having a solid technical basis for its "magic". I highly recommend it to anyone with interests in both computers and science fiction. I wish someone would make a movie of this one. Mark Dakins ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 87 18:30:36 GMT From: citi!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!unrvax!tims@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Sullivan) Subject: H. G. Wells Reply to article posted by Ami Silberman. Well, well (very weak pun intended), there does appear to be someone else in this net who enjoys reading Wells! I've been an avid reader of nearly any of his works that can still be found in print, which usually means digging around in the old Dewey Decimal stacks at our county library here in Reno. Every once in a while a local bookstore will get a few copies of his short story collections on the "bargain table" -- worth keeping your eyes open for. Any comments on the following stories/novels? 1. Men Like Gods 2. Tono Bungay 3. The Truth About Pyecroft 4. The New Accellerator By the way, any Jules Verne fans out there? I've read a lot of his works, but have a hard time finding any of his less popular novels still in print. Suggestions on where to find any will be appreciated. Tim Sullivan Reno, NV ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 87 18:39:57 GMT From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com (Pietkivitch) Subject: Blood of Amber questions (possible SPOILERS) I finally read the latest Amber book (in paperback!) and would have to say that I liked it better than the Trumps of Doom. Though I thought that the Ghostwheel which was quite an excellent thing-in-itself should have been mentioned or encountered more often than it was. Possibly, this explains why the ending was so weird; ending quite abruptly and making references to what sounded like Alice in Wonderland? Maybe the Ghostwheel was responsible for creating that final spinning trump card and will have a larger part in the next novel. Lots of loose ends to be tied up. The paperback said that the next Amber novel would be out in July 1987! I don't think I'll wait for this one to come out in paperback! rj pietkivitch ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 87 13:24:52 PDT From: linda@MATH.UCLA.EDU Subject: blacks on sf covers I went to a panel on cover art at the Atlanta Worldcon, and this is what I learned : A lot of books are sold through distributors instead of directly to bookstores. Apparently, some of the southern US distributors will resist carrying a book with a black on the cover. This would badly hurt the availability of the book in that region. In some ways I thought this was encouraging. It's not that 'people won't buy a book with a black on the cover' but that a relatively few people will block the distribution. Linda Wald linda@math.ucla.edu ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 87 02:26:38 GMT From: gatech!sdcsvax!jack!sco!ericg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Griswold) Subject: Re: Cover Screw-Ups bms@sq.UUCP (bms) writes: >Does anyone else out there dislike Rowena's artwork as I do? I >know not all cover artists CAN get access to manuscripts and >authors' input as people like Whelan do, but I don't like Rowena's >work on it's OWN. I've always been rather fascinated by the garishness of it. She paints in technicolor and presents things in a world of such childish simplicity, it makes it *fun* to look at. Yea she's kind of excessive with the T&A, but it is rare to find someone in advertising (she *IS* in the ad biz) who isn't. Think of it as a tasteful alternative to a Calvin Klein "Obsession" ad :-) Eric Griswold ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 87 15:19:17 edt Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #306 From: markl@PTT.LCS.MIT.EDU >From: sugar!peter@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter DaSilva) >There is a story I read once where the *demon* summoned the *human* >down to hell for some purpose for which a real, live human was >required. The human pulled a beautiful diabolical twist on the >demon at the end. Frederick Brown-ish type story. Any ideas? Ug. [page-fault...page-fault...page-fault]. The human is an astronomer, right? And the devil needs him to get some sort if talisman in return for which the devil will grant a favor to the man at the time of his death? I think it is in a Poul Anderson anthology called "Fantasy", but the story title escapes me (although Larry Niven's name keeps popping into my head too. I hate it when I can't get at my library to confirm things...). markl Internet: markl@ptt.lcs.mit.edu MIT Laboratory for Computer Science Distributed Systems Group ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 87 15:35:33 GMT From: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens) Subject: Re: story request (was Re: Some comments...) peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter DaSilva) writes: >There is a story I read once where the *demon* summoned the *human* >down to hell for some purpose for which a real, live human was >required. The human pulled a beautiful diabolical twist on the >demon at the end. Frederick Brown-ish type story. Any ideas? Didn't Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser get into that sort of trouble in one of their adventures? That story line sure rings a bell. Kristopher Stephens Amdahl Corporation (408-746-6047) {whatever}!amdahl!krs krs@amdahl.amdahl.com ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 87 17:12:31 GMT From: harvard!talcott!encore!diana@RUTGERS.EDU (Diana Carroll) Subject: Re: Lovecraft dant@tekla.UUCP (Dan Tilque) writes: >I suppose this is all a matter of taste, but I'd like someone to >explain what they like about horror. Personally, I read horror to scare myself. I agree that horror tends to leave someone who is used to SF a little unsatisfied, because nothing is ever explained. That's why I usually read SF. But when I do read horror, I don't care the why's, I don't want to know the hows. I want a book that appeals to that inner nature, left of from prehistoric days, of fear of the unknown, and terror of anything larger than you...or stronger. Ther more explanation of a phenomenon, the less intimidating it is. Ignorance is the mother of fear, and that's important when you're trying to terrify yourself. Now, you ask, why on earth would anyone want to scare themselves silly? I'm not sure. All I know is it is exhilarating to feel your blood pound like that, and look behind you at every noise, and wonder "Is this just a book, or...". Science fiction can make you think, and make you feel in an intellectual way. But it can never get under your skin and deep into your emotions and make you LIVE IT the way horror can. You feel more involved because that's YOU running from that horrible green slimy monster, not a character in a book. My favorite horror is where the antagonist is some pure, unadulterated evil, with no explanation, no relent. My favorites are _Ghost_Story_ by Peter Straub, and _The_Shining_ and _Salem's_Lot_ by Stephen King. (For those who have not read them, but seen the movies -- no relation.) Well, that's my reason anyway. I'd be curious to know anyone elses. Diana Carroll ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 87 20:39:12 GMT From: uwvax!uwmacc!oyster@RUTGERS.EDU (Vicarious Oyster) Subject: Re: Horror (was "Lovecraft") diana@encore.UUCP (Diana Carroll) writes: >Personally, I read horror to scare myself. I agree that horror >tends to leave someone who is used to SF a little unsatisfied, >because nothing is ever explained. That's why I usually read SF. >But when I do read horror, I don't care the why's, I don't want to >know the hows. I want a book that appeals to that inner nature, >left of from prehistoric days, of fear of the unknown, and terror >of anything larger than you...or stronger. Ther more explanation >of a phenomenon, the less intimidating it is. Ignorance is the >mother of fear, and that's important when you're trying to terrify >yourself. I think that's true for myself, too. I read mostly science fiction and fantasy, but need a good long horror story (or mystery, or historical fiction, or technical manual* ) every few weeks to add a bit of spice to my reading. For this purpose, I've been delving into, um, whatisname, the guy who does the one-word title novels, like _Phantoms_ and _Whispers_. Anyway, he has the tendency to explain what "It" is somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 through the book. It *really* takes the fun out of it, and the reading experience becomes one of merely finding out how the people involved deal with the problem (which of course is nowhere *near* as fun as being scared spitless). King is usually better at leaving us up in the air, though his style tends to bog down at times. Anyway, I've just finished Norman Mailer's first novel, and have _The Dead Zone_ lined up for after books two and three of the Fionavar (sp?) Tapestry books. I don't know how I've managed so long without reading that one (_The Dead Zone_, that is). I expect it to satisfy my cravings for terror, however. -- Joel Plutchak uucp: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster ARPA: oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu BITNET: plutchak@wiscmacc ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 29 Jun 87 0843-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #309 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Jun 87 0843-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #309 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 29 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 309 Today's Topics: Television - Doctor Who (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Jun 87 19:43:55 GMT From: alan@cae780.tek.com (Alan M. Steinberg) Subject: Re: Dr. Who (again) nyssa@terminus.UUCP (The Railyard) writes: >>Jo Grant was a lovely companion, and I doubt very seriously if >>whatever follows will be near her equal. >Sarah Jane Smith may be the worst companion in terms of >consistency. She was supposed to be a feminist, and failed >miserably there. She was supposed to be a stronger character, yet >was a screamer I am very disappointed in her character for that. It's partly because of her inconsistency that made Sarah Jane the most interesting companion. In real life, people are inconsistent. There are many women and men who try to be strong in character, but slip up a bit. If we knew she would always bash the alien on the head, then when the alien appeared, we would think "Sarah Jane will just bash it on the head." But we don't know what she will do. She doesn't know what she might do, until something happens. She is intelligent and witty. And she certainly shows compassion for others, whether it be human (the slow learner from "Kingdom of the Spiders" (?)) or alien (the ambassador from Alpha Centauri in "Monster of Paladon" (?)). I guess if you like time lords, Romana may be your favorite. For savages, no companion beats Leela. Someone from Traken may like Nyssa. But I prefer modern Earth women, and, though Jo is okay, Sarah Jane is the type I would take along if I were a time lord and I had a TARDIS. I wonder who Sgt. Benton prefers? Alan Steinberg tektronix!cae780!alan ------------------------------ Date: Wed 24 Jun 87 09:08:53-PDT From: Walter Chapman Subject: DR. WHO VIDEO RELEASES FOR JULY 1987 Playhouse Video/CBS-FOX is releasing three Tom Baker Dr. Who episodes in July. According to the press release (don`t flame me for accuracy) the episodes are: _The_ _Brain_of_Morbius_ with Elisabeth Sladen (1984), _The_Robots_of_Death_ with Louise Jameson (1986), and _Pyramids_of_Mars_ again with Elisabeth Sladen (l985). If the dates are wrong send your complaints to CBS/FOX. Also, check with K-Mart 'coz you might save a buck or two if you're planning on buying. Walter Chapman Chapman@STRIPE.SRI.COM ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 1987 01:42 EDT (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: Alastair Milne Subject: Dr. Who queries As I recall, they mentioned in one episode that there are about 40 stories to the TARDIS. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 87 9:49:24 cdt From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Dr. Who -- Gallifreyan Social Structure Maybe some of the Who experts out there can enlighten me on this area: I've always wondered about Gallifrey's social structure -- at first, it seemed that all Gallifreyans were Time Lords, but, later, when we saw more episodes set on that planet, it appeared that there were a lot of menial Gallifreyans who worked under the orders of the Council and were inferior to the Time Lords. Are Council members selected from amongst the Time Lords (so that there would be a class of non-council-member Time Lords) or is it the same thing to be a Time Lord and a Council member (excepting of course special cases like the Doctor)? (That is, that to be a Time Lord automatically means you belong to the Council?) Has this ever been made clear or described in detail in some of the Dr. Who reference material (which I haven't seen)? Regards, Will Martin wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA (on USENET try ...!seismo!wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 87 11:13:28 -0700 From: Jim Hester Subject: Dr. Who: comments on comments (on ...) >> 3. Why are there no female timelords? > There are [female time lords], they just don't appear very often. > In the 'Key to Time' series (a few years on from the ones you are > watching now) the Doctor is joined by a female Time Lord who > remains for two further seasons. >dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) writes: >>I can only claim temporary memory bank failure for forgetting >>about Romana. She is indeed the first female Timelord I remember >>seeing. > >Wasn't there a female time lord in "The Invasion of Time?" I am >referring to the lady working in the security center whom Leela >meets. I am pretty certain she was said to be a time lord. > >Romanadvoradnalunda would not appreciate that question. Neither >would Chancellor Flavia. I'm not so sure she was said to be a Time Lord, but I would assume that she was on the basis of the fact that her station seemed to involve a fair ammount of responsibility (at least she was protected well). On the other hand, her policy was mindless: to ignore anything. And she considered her job a tedious one. Were the Citidel guards Time Lords (not counting the time Colin Baker played a guard)? I think they were only Gallifreans since I doubt anyone would go through the Time Lord Academy just to learn how to shoot a taser. There was also one renegade female Time Lord, although her title slips me at the moment. She allied with The Master once or twice. It might have been The Rani, but I'm not sure. >Possibly the best one, though, is "Pyramids of Mars". I liked it too. Among other things, it contains a really weird blooper. When The Bad Guy stands up from his throne, there is a human hand on the chair, draped over from the other side. It appears as if TBG was sitting on the hand. Within a fraction of a second, that hand is pulled out of sight. Presumably someone was doing a last-minute adjustment to TBG's costume and didn't manage to get his hand out of the way before the TBG stood up. It looks hilarious, like Adams Family's Thing in outer space! >Fortunately, Dr. Who does not require special effects skill for its >results. The most enjoyable parts, I always feel, are the lines: >mostly the Doctor's, but often his companions' too. > >>They've gotta do something about that costume designer, though. >>He or she seems to create the gaudiest, goofiest outfits, I've ever >>seen. ... >Excuse me? Are we watching the same series? Of exactly what >costumes in Dr. Who are you thinking? I think his outfits are >great, Sarah's are usually very good, and the costuming in general >for episodes set in the past is excellent (for those set in the >future, often a bit plastic and artificial, it's true). ... The original reason costumes were so bad was that they were on a small budget, and they had to make new stuff for all of the scenes they needed. I agree with the comment that Dr. Who's plots stand without needing grand costuming, but for far more extreme reasons. Dr. Who is very much a comedy, and the cheap BBC special-effects have become a part of that humour. They will occasionally spend more nowadays, and they don't grudge The Doctor and regulars decent costumes, but anything that will be used once is done cheaply and, now that it is a running joke, probably even more bizzarely than necessary. I think the amazing things they find to glue on space suits and alien costumes are hilarious! Many fans agree with this interpretation: several years ago Monstercon (alas, I missed it) had a special category in it's costume contest called "BBC costume." The only requirement was that the entire cost of the costume could be no more than $5. I heard that people did fantastic things with coathangers tin foil and plastic wrap: most costumes were constructed right AT the convention. One costume was a sheet splotched with reddish spray paint: the person draped it over him and crawled out onto the stage looking almost exactly like the Routon(?) in the lighthouse (episode name forgotten). My favorite scene was when a ship did a close hyperbolic orbit past an asteroid: They had a sheet of glass (or more likely plastic or even plastic wrap) for a window with a cylindrical (diameter about 6feet) moonscape just the other side of it. This was spun to simulate passing close to the planet's surface. It looked just like the running scenes of cheap cartoons: the background repeated itself every half second or so. Naturally the historic costumes and sets are better. The BBC people responsible for Dr. Who don't build those, they just dip into their extensive warehouses for existing props whose rentals cost them less than hacking up something corny. pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu writes: >>nyssa@terminus.UUCP writes: >>Jo Grant was a lovely companion, and I doubt very seriously if >>whatever follows will be near her equal. (Although Harry did come >>>>>close...) >I will admit that she is not my least favorite, there are may >worse. I just don't think she holds a candle to Leela, Jo Grant, >Harry Sullivan, Brigadier Alastair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart, and >others. Harry Sullivan???~????? To quote The Doctor, "Harry Sullivan is an Idiot!" To (loosely) quote Sarah, "[Harry Sullivan] is a Twit!" In general I refer to Sarah and Harry as The Dip and The Twit, respectively. I love them as scapegoats of humourous ridicule, but would never consider them among the best companions on that basis. By the way, none of the UNIT people are generally considered companions, any more than The Master is. They might have been regulars on the show during the Pertwee reign, and show up on occasion after that, but they were NOT companions. Check the Dr. Who Programme Guide (I haven't, but I'm confident). I know that the Programme Guide might not be considered "Official", but it's as good as anything else printed by BBC. For that matter John Nathan Turner (the Producer), at Timecon, was asked how they checked scripts for consistnecy with earlier shows. He said that they had a small room stacked to the ceiling with old scripts which they never used. They used the Programme Guide! >>Could Sarah Jane fire a bow or use a Janus Thorn without killing >>herself? I doubt it. Does that detract even further from her >>character? No, because it wasn't part of it. > >AHEM! I would bring your attention to the episode "Pyramids of >MArs". Sarah is an excellent shot with a rifle. Right. A rifle is a 20th century weapon, so it is not entirely unbelievable that The Dip, as a feminist, might have had occasion to learn to use one. I would be far more suprised if she were proficient with a bow or daggar. The concept of being able to use a weapon was not the question, it was one of being able to use something which was completely outside one's background experience. Although Leela DID use guns on occasion, the basic operating instructions are simple enough and it was never implied that she was a particularly good shot. She did LIKE guns, naturally, but that's another issue. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 87 11:00 EST From: Subject: HISTORY OF DR. WHO The following is a history of the Dr. Who episodes. Credits for this synopsis should go to the author(who is listed). I take blame for nothing...but, why shouldn't I. I didn't do anything but post it. HISTORY OF DOCTOR WHO In the constellation of Kasterborus, at galactic coordinates ten-zero-eleven-zero-zero by zero-two from galactic zero center lies Gallifrey - The Planet of the Time-Lords. On Gallifrey lives an immensely intelligent and highly civilized race. Gallifreyans have an unique endowment - the ability to regenerate their bodies, to prevent premature death. At such times they take on a completely new physical appearance. Gallifreyans may regenerate as many as twelve times in one lifetime. The Master is the only Time Lord that has regenerated more than 12 times. Even more important than this ability however, are the Gallifreyans' many extraordinary discoveries. They have opened the doors to the time barrier and unlocked the secret of travel through the fifth dimension. It is upon that secret that the tradition of the Time-Lords has been founded. The Time-Lords monitor all the happenings and events that occur in time and space. They train at their respective academies depending on their chapters of which there are three: the Arcalians, the Patrexes, and the Prydonians. Legends speak of Omega, a great and gifted time engineer, who created the super-nova explosion which in time became the Crab Nebula. This gave the Gallifreyans the power they needed to develop the time travel capsules called TARDIS (Time And Relative Dimensions In Space). Rassilon, the original leader of the Time-Lords, captured a black hole which provided the Time-Lords with a constant, stable power source to perfect their researches. It was Rassilon who created the symbols of power held by the president of the High Council: The Matrix, a link to the Amplified Panatropic Complex (APC net), the computer which contains the memories of all the Time-Lords who ever lived; The Sash which protects the wearer from the energies of the black hole; The Rod and Great Key which are used in harnessing the energies of the black hole. The early Time-Lords used their powers to try to help the people of the planet Minyos develop their civilization; despite these efforts, though, the Minyans destroyed each other in nuclear wars. Only then did the Time-Lords realize the potential harm of their discoveries. They instituted laws governing time travel, limiting themselves to the role of observers. They vowed only to interfere in the affairs of other cultures in the most extreme cases of injustice. Throughout Time-Lord history there have been those who have left Gallifrey to pursue their own ideas and ambitions. Among these 'Renegade' Time-Lords are names such as K'Anpo, who lived on Earth as a Tibetan monk, and Drax, the builder of Mentalis, a giant computer on the planet Zeos. By far the most dangerous is the Master, an evil and avaricious Time-Lord whose lust for power has allied him to some of the most ruthless elements in the universe. A deadly hypnotist, his trademark is murder and his favorite weapon a gun which compresses his victims' atoms, leaving doll size corpses. Most extraordinary of all the Time-Lords is the Doctor. Bored with the laws of non-intervention, he rejected the teachings and principles of his tutor, Cardinal Borusa, and those of the academy, and left Gallifrey with his granddaughter in a stolen (borrowed) TARDIS to explore! War Chief, too, rejected the Time Lords principles, and sought to build an invincible army to conquer the galaxy. (The Doctor stopped him only to be placed on trial by the Time Lords and sentenced to be Earth bound with a memory block on his knowledge of Dematerilization). The Most powerful Time Lord is Salyavin, who was thought to be imprisoned on Shada, the secret Time Lord prison planet. Salyavin held the power to imprint his mind on any sentient being, thereby gaining control of said being. Salyavin, however, was hiding, incognito, on the planet Earth. Disguised as Professor Chronotis, he concealed the book of the Ancient Law of Gallifrey, until he gave it to the Doctor to be returned to the Time Lords. Morbius was once a high ranking Time Lord, but became a cosmic villain. This Time Lord renegade was thought to be executed by the time lords, but his living brain was somehow stolen and a new body was being prepared for Morbuis' regeneration. (Again, the Doctor intervened and ended Morbius for good). The Time Lords who stayed on Gallifrey to continue their culture were also tempted by over zealous glory. Borusa, who taught the principles of nonintervention with ferverent belief, went on to become castellan, then president, but sought to gain the complete power of Rassilon just so he could continue forever to guide his people. His misguided intentions led him to be imprisoned with other deluded Time Lords on the tomb of Rassilon. (Information about Borusa, Morbius, War Chief, and Salyavin were added by Jim Thomas of RSVP. Original author is unknown. Last update was March 17, 1985. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 30 Jun 87 0825-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #310 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Jun 87 0825-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #310 To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 30 Jun 1987 Volume 12 : Issue 310 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - First SF (8 msgs) & Alien Life (2 msgs) & SFL T-Shirts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jun 87 13:36:58 GMT From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: First SF (Some questions answered) [Old business] From: seismo!utai!hub.toronto.edu!ping@RUTGERS.EDU > The first SF books that I read were two novels by the British > author Patrick Moore about a base built on the moon jointly by the > Americans and the Russians. One was called "Caverns of the Moon", > and I don't remember the name of the other one.... Well, Moore wrote roughly 20 books. CAVERNS OF THE MOON was the last of a four-book series about Robin North, the others being WANDERER IN SPACE, CRATER OF FEAR, and INVADER FROM SPACE. From: sci!daver (David Rickel) > Anybody remember a series of stories about a moonman named Matt > Mooney? I suspect you're thinking of the series by Jerome Beatty about Matthew Looney. There are also a couple of books about Matthew's sister Maria. From: hpfcrj!bayes (Scott Bayes) > I think my "hooker" was _Sons of the Ocean Deep_ (? title), by, > by, by... (How embarrassing, I've forgotten). Bryce Walton. One of the famed Winston juveniles. (And it was ...DEEPS.) From: cc5.bbn.com!levin > ...I remember something called "Rocket Jockey" > ...(no idea who wrote it). Lester del Rey, under the pseudonym Philip St. John. Another of the famed Winston juveniles. > Then going WAY back, I remember from the elementary level shelves > in the Logan Utah public library something called "Little Ball > from Mars" ... really no idea who wrote that! You stumped me. I can't find a reference for any book with that title. From: nancy!rjd (Rob DeMillo) > The first SF that I can remember reading was a book that I ordered > from a school book drive called "The Time Tunnel," and was > authored by someone that I should know - unfortunately I have > forgotten his name. It was your typical time travel story (of > course I didn't know that then) about a pair of scientists who > create a time machine and go back to the prehistoric past to see > all sorts of wonderful things. (Dinosaurs, old ferns, primitive > tribes, etc..) This was in about third grade...and the author had > written the book for little kids... (If anyone can help me out > with the author's name, I'd appreciate it...it's gonna drive me > crazy now.) The only novels I know of by that title are by Murray Leinster. He wrote TIME TUNNEL (no "the") in 1964 and it had nothing at all to do with the tv show, which came two years later (unless the show was inspired by this book, but I've never seen mention that it was). In 1967, Leinster wrote another book called THE TIME TUNNEL, which was based on the tv show (he also wrote a second book based on the show: TIMESLIP!). However, neither book matches the description you give. The only time travel book for young kids that I've ever read was THE ANYTIME RINGS by Robert Faraday, though I know of two books by "Donald Keith" (actually Donald and Keith Monroe), entitled MUTINY IN THE TIME MACHINE and TIME MACHINE TO THE RESCUE, that might fit your bill. From: Natalie Prowse > ...I also remember 2 short SF stories in our elemetary school > Reader - 'The Fun They Had',by Clarke, and a story taken from the > Martian Chronicles about a family who moves to mars (I can't > remember the name).... "The Million Year Picnic", I'd guess. And "The Fun They Had" is by Asimov, not Clarke. From: umd5!brooksj (Joanne Brooks) > I have a couple questions for all you netters; maybe someone can > help me. First: Who were the authors (I know there are two) of > the 'StarChild Trilogy'? I remember reading it my freshman year of > high school, and haven't been able to find it since in any book > store around here -- I want to try to order it thru an > out-of-print book shop, if I can. Frederik Pohl and Jack Williamson. They've appeared as three paperbacks that shouldn't be hard to find in a good used book store. From: dartvax!holly (Ian Cabell) > On a different track, I saw a book mentioned that I would like to > find again. The book contained something about Tyco Brahe and a > planet with mushrooms, or something. Could someone find the > author/title for me? This is one of those questions that seems to come up in this newsgroup at least once a year. The Mushroom Planet series is by Eleanor Cameron, and is about Tycho Bass (Tycho Brahe was the famous astronomer). There were five books in the series: (1) THE WONDERFUL FLIGHT TO THE MUSHROOM PLANET, (2) STOWAWAY TO THE MUSHROOM PLANET, (3) MR. BASS'S PLANETOID, (4) A MYSTERY FOR MR. BASS, and (5) TIME AND MR. BASS. From: mind!rob (Robert N. Bernard) > jnp@calmasd.GE.COM (John Pantone) writes: >> The single book I remember well, of the series, involved the >> common 2 characters (an astronaut-type and his cat) who went to >> Venus.... Anybody remember the name of the cat and or series? > I remember this too as being my first sf. I'm pretty sure this is > the "Space Cat" series and there are more books than just this > one. I read them when I was 10 or 11, but they would be good > books in order to introduce one's kids (ages 8-10) to sf. I have > no idea what the author's name was, although I wouldn't mind > finding out. Ruthven Todd. There were four books in the series: (1) SPACE CAT, (2) SPACE CAT VISITS VENUS, (3) SPACE CAT MEETS MARS, and (4) SPACE CAT AND THE KITTENS. From: Jerry Stearns > I remember some of those Scholastic Book Club books in grade > school and Junior High school: _Man of Many Minds_ ...I don't > remember the author... E. Everett Evans. > ... _Miss Pickerel Goes to Mars_, and others in the Miss Pickerel > series: again, I forget the author... Ellen MacGregor (later ones were collaborations with Dora Pantell). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 87 21:35:03 GMT From: cit-vax!elroy!nrcvax!terry@RUTGERS.EDU (Terry Grevstad) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction--huh??? The first SF story I can remember reading was _Citizen_of_the_Galaxy_. I was already into fantasy very deeply, having read the majority of the Narnia series (maybe all of it, I don't recall), _The_Hobbit_, the Green Knoll books, and anything else I could get my hands on. All this was in grade school. By the time I got to high school I was a confirmed SF afficionado. Terry Grevstad Network Research Corporation ihnp4!nrcvax!terry {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!terry ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 87 15:42:40 GMT From: pdc@computer-science.nottingham.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) Subject: Re: First SF As I recall I was 'corrupted' by a teacher! I was about 10-11 with a large appetite for reading matter of any sort and this teacher whose name I can never remember (although she teaches at the same school as my aunt now) once gave the class a list of books which she thought we might find interesting to read over the summer holidays. Sadly I cannot remember all of the books now even though I didn't get to read all of them, but the titles that stuck out were "The Hobbit","The Lord of The Rings", the Narnia books and "The Day of the Triffids". I read them and was hooked! "The Lord of the Rings" was the first book that kept me awake until about three in the morning reading it, especially the episode in Shelobs Lair. Nowadays I find it very hard to read epic fantasy as I keep finding it can't live up to Tolkien. There are of course exceptions such as the excellent "Riftwar Saga" and "The Belgariad" (yes I know it's simplistic and predictable with more stereotypes than in an episode of *insert your favourite soap here* but I just like the style). I can't say I ever had problems getting hold of sf from libraries or anything, I certainly never came up against the "No we won't stock THAT" syndrome that others have mentioned, in fact the librarians at the local branch tend to go out of their way to get hold of books, or maybe I just get on well with them. I hope these ramblings prove useful to someone other than myself! Piers Cawley ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 87 16:37:08 GMT From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction--huh??? "Star Man's Son", by Andre Norton (Also known, I believe, as "Daybreak: 2250 A.D."). In a post-halocaust America, a youth voyages from his tribal homeland to visit the remains of a nuked Chicago, accompanied by his giant mutant cat, Lura. He finds the city occupied by a strange mutant "beast-things" which apparently evolved from Russian soldiers sent to occupy the city and rats (as I recall it). Sounds silly now, but to an 11 year old, it was wonderful. 30 years later, I'm still hooked, probably because I always had a wild imagination and liked releasing it with weird ideas and situations. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 07:36:33 GMT From: nu3b2!rwhite@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert C. White Jr.) Subject: First Science Fiction The First story I read was about people from regil, who look like elephants, who come to earth to mine "the stuff of life" from the earth. Durring touchdown they release a substnce that turned every living (organic) thing in north america into "living metal." most of the above died, the survivors numbering something like six. They collected these, and rticulated the metal into robots and returned them to their original sorundings so they wouldn't go into shock. It's the metal "US" against the creating "them" [with the help of the austrailians who were far enough away to survive with the side efect of being turned blue [iron in blood replaced with cobalt]] Reasons were given for everything, reasonably good reasons after the inital buisness" It was very striking to me, I was eight or so, but I can't remember the title. I liked it cause I would have loved to be one of the robots as described. Anybody know the title? Robert ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 87 10:12 PDT From: newman.pasa@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: First SF First SF? Gawd, I don't know how so many people have such detailed memories of the early years of their lives. I can barely remember what I read last year - much less fifteen years ago. Also, this topic has prompted me to hypothesize that early readers are more likely to be found among science fiction fans than among the general population. Anybody care to do a study? At any rate, I read lots of stuff that has been mentioned on the list before I became "hooked" (Mushroom Planet, Phantom TollBooth, Tom Swift Jr, many Scholastic books), most of which I do not remember. I don't remember if I was into SF yet or not, but a friend gave me a book by Andre Norton (2250 AD?), and the largest part of my early SF readings were by her. The fact that my Aunt had every Andre Norton book ever published (well, perhaps I exaggerate - but only a little) helped me out greatly. By Jr High, I was hooked, and I was moving into Clarke, Asimov, Heinlein, and Tolkien (read LotR 7 times in two years). Since then my horizons have continually broadened, and I love it. I enjoy an occasionaly mystery or thriller, but I don't see how anyone can live without regular large doses of fantasy and science fiction! Dave ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 87 01:51:14 GMT From: dleigh@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Darren Leigh) Subject: Re: First SF I guess I got my first real science fiction reading experience in fourth grade. They were passing out paperbacks and I got two: The Runaway Robot (by Lester del Rey?) and another one whose title I don't remember: it was about the revolution of earth's colony on Alpha Centauri, with all kinds of parallels with the American revolution ("No taxation without representation."). A really neat part was where the hero (outside the ship doing repairs after the hyperspace drive broke) loosed his own tether to jump out and save a fellow workman. Apparently the only propulsion device he had was a pistol, so he only had six shots to get back! I appreciated it. I was only nine. I also remember a book that someone else mentioned: _You_Will_Go_to_the_Moon_ (the one with the boy on the cover staring up at a huge full moon. I guess my parents gave me that book for Christmas sometime around 1969 and Apollo 11 (I have no idea exactly when). I also had a little "action figure" named Major Matt Mason, an astronaut complete with helmut, space capsule (I think) and a lunar rover that I could "program" with plastic pegs. How old was I? Five? Six? It really has been a long time. I remember watching the Apollo shots on TV and thinking that this was normal, that there was nothing spectacularly new about the whole thing. I was fascinated, but I thought it was an everyday occurance. Darren Leigh dlleigh@media-lab.mit.edu dleigh@hplabs.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 87 20:35:37 GMT From: seismo!mcvax!tut!eal@RUTGERS.EDU (Lehtim{ki Erkki) Subject: Re: First Science Fiction--huh??? If Edgar Rice Burroughs' Mars serie is SCiFi, then my first SF was John Carter of Mars. If not, then it was one Finnish Scince Fiction book, i don't know if it is ever transleted into English. Erkki A. Lehtim{ki eal@tut.uucp ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 87 17:06 PDT From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD From: Subject: Alien Life (a question of reaction) To: ARMS-D@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU I am sending this to both SF-Lovers and Arms because they seem to be the appropriate groups. So, here is comes...please feel free to speculate...what would the effect of having proof that there is intelligent life somewhere off-earth? What do you think would happen to US/USSR defense departments? Do you think there would be a change in the way countries relate to eachother? Perhaps you could send me your responses and I can copile them and re-send them to the DL. Thanks, Bill ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 87 21:46:40 GMT From: dleigh@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Darren Leigh) Subject: Re: Alien Life (a question of reaction) From: William Daul > would the effect of having proof that there is intelligent life > somewhere off-earth? What do you think would happen to US/USSR > defense departments? Do you think there would be a change in the > way countries relate to eachother? Have you read Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card? It has a very interesting treatment on this subject. Darren Leigh dlleigh@media-lab.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 87 07:13:32 CDT From: PM - Aviation Life Support To: king@KESTREL.ARPA > Dick King (king@kestrel.arpa) wrote: > I might be interested in the T-Shirts What would the artwork be? There is no charge for the artwork, to the best of my knowledge nobody has even suggested a design, so everything is still kinda up in the air. Any suggestions from anybody? Ed Bruck 12125 Valencia Spanish Lake, MO 63138 ARPANET: AMCPM.ALSE2@AMCPM.ALSE2@STL-HOST1.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************